Michelle and Gwendolyn invite all to join in a special fast this Sunday, March 17th specifically asking the Lord to bless the hearts of the Latter-Day Saints that they can find this knowledge and have their hearts softened to be open to praying about it.
Links:
The Voice of Innocence Transcription (Be warned, because that is a Church resource, the polygamy narrative is layered on in the description! To me, the words of the actual proclamation speak for themselves.)
Transcript:
[00:01] Michelle: Welcome to this special edition of 132 Problems. I am here with the brilliant Gwendolyn wine who is actually on the other side of the world right now, Gwendolyn, you have moved. Do you want to tell everyone where you’ve moved to?
[00:15] Gwendolyn Wyne: We moved to Vienna Austria? So we are in Europe now
[00:20] Michelle: incredible having an incredible adventure and surviving an incredible adventure so far. But Gwendolyn, her content has just been so good. I it’s been exciting to have both of us working on this and she has put out something that I think is beautiful and profound, something that I’ve done in the past as well. But I really loved Gwendolyn’s vision behind this. So I wanted to support it and bring as many people on board as possible. So I asked Gwendolyn to come on and talk to all of us about it. So thank you for making the time Gwendolyn. And why don’t you go ahead and tell us what you’ve been up to?
[00:54] Gwendolyn Wyne: Thank you so much. I want to just give credit. This was not my idea. This was the idea of one of our mutual commenters. So we have uh a commenter who watches and participates in the comment section. Um Stomp mom and she had been
[01:11] Michelle: awesome. We love you were awesome.
[01:15] Gwendolyn Wyne: She had been a polygamy defender. Um She didn’t love it, but she just kind of had the narrative and said, hey, sometimes the Lord commands this and that’s OK and we need to just accept that. Um But it was, it was pulling at her and she was watching some of your things, watch some of mine and she took it to the Lord in prayer and had an incredible experience, an outpouring of spirit, an outpouring of truth. And she is just on fire. And I know that that is not just her, that is the experience that many people are having. Um so many people are having. That’s what got me started was having that experience myself. Um And in one of her comments on one of my videos, she said, I think we should do a fast. And when she said that, I thought yes, we should do a fast. I personally fast regularly for this, for this truth to go forth in power. Um I’m sure you do too. I’m sure it’s a regular fast. Um But to do something collectively, it just felt like the right time and this coming Sunday is the anniversary of the organization of the Relief Society. It will be 182 years and it just seemed like the right time to do a fast for anyone. I I’m saying anyone who loves Latter Day Saints, anyone who loves truth, that we will be open and desire to know the truth about polygamy.
[02:43] Michelle: So what we are fasting for this time? I, I wanna ask if I’m getting this right because I’ve done a couple of different ones in the, in the past this fast. Specifically, if people want to join in with Gwendolyn’s intent and, and stop mom, it’s specifically asking the Lord to bless the hearts of the latter day saints that they can find this knowledge and ha have their hearts softened to be open to praying about it. And I think if, if, if we can ask God to get people, help, people get to that point, God’s got it from there because those answers do come powerfully, they come powerfully, they come fast and they come strong for so many people. It’s just a matter of being willing to open up enough to just consider, make a space big enough for the Lord to step in with the answers. And that’s, that’s what my feeling is, is if we confess that people can just get this information to open a little bit crack a little opening into their heart that the Lord can fill in is that that’s what you’re going for?
[03:47] Gwendolyn Wyne: And I actually asked, I made a post about it and I asked people to please tell me what specifically they would be fasting for. So that we can kind of join together in this and I wanna just read um one or two. So one of the commenters, Alison Hansen said I will not only fast for others but also for the gift of discernment as to how to share truth with those. I know, however, they need it to best understand it also that I will continue to be open to any truths the Lord sees fit to teach me. Um That is it so
[04:24] Michelle: much that uh tingles?
[04:27] Gwendolyn Wyne: OK. I know one more. Uh Johnny Man said that he’ll be fasting for a great awakening of all God’s Children that our idols will be taken away and our eyes and hearts turn to the savior and none else.
[04:42] Michelle: Uh Again, I love it so much. Oh, let’s invite people to go ahead and add comments here because as we’re reading, that’s a beau, I mean, that’s beautiful to let us share kind of what comes to mind and what we’re inspired to add to this collective. It’s almost, oh, I don’t want to be sacrilegious at all, but it feels almost like a temple prayer role, right? Like like go ahead and just start adding um our comments and our prayers that, that we are going to unite together in. I love that so much. I think
[05:13] Gwendolyn Wyne: it was, I thought it was so interesting that that not interesting, but just this great awakening of all God’s Children because I’m sure you’ve noticed this on your channel. I’ve noticed it on mine. I don’t just have Latter Day saints listening. There are people of all stripes that are, uh, waking up or have been awakened and see this for what it is. Um, I get a number of Muslim watchers and, um, they have, and they have a similar, um, tradition or doctrine in their religion that, that polygamy. Yeah. This belief that polygamy is an exception to the rule of marriage and that it’s based upon a man’s desire. I wonder where that came from? Right. And all these similar doctrines coming from some source, some think Satan. Right.
[06:04] Michelle: Right. Right. Yeah. And I love that. II, I do want to extend this invitation also to all of my non LDS listeners. There are so many beautiful people in the Christian community in the RLDS, the traditional RLDS community who have, well for, for generations really been praying for the Utah saints, for the members of the LDS church to be awakened to these things. And so if we can, you know, so we’re just doing another time to unite all of our prayers together, to pray for all of our hearts. That was, that really is a prayer for the hearts of the women because the Lord has told us why polygamy is always condemned. And it’s because of the hearts of the women that polygamy destroys. So this is beautiful and I think it’s so profound that it just so happens that this coming Sunday is the anniversary, the 182nd anniversary of the foundation, the formation of the Relief Society. And what people don’t always know is that one of the primary reasons that the Relief Society was founded was to watch over the morals was to teach women and empower women to avoid the deception of polygamy specifically to avoid any deception. There had been these women coming forward saying so and so said, Chauncey Higby said, or John Bennett said, or you know, it said that you, that Joseph Smith taught this. And so they needed to empower the moral, that they needed to strengthen the morals and the virtue and the knowledge of the women so that they would not fall prey to these deceptions, which is so needed today. So need, we need how many of our leaders have told the women to study the organization of the relief society and study the nature of God and study our history, which is exactly what we’re doing, which is bringing all of this forward. And so it’s the exact same thing we’re trying to do today is strengthen the women, the morals, the integrity, the knowledge, the understanding so that the women of the church won’t fall prey to these deceptions. That’s profound to me.
[08:13] Gwendolyn Wyne: Yeah, I love that. And when you look at the original section, 101 of the doctrine and covenants, which was put out there because there were um rumors about polygamy that this was something that was allowed. Um, you can see that, that this had, this had worked its way into the church from, from somewhere. And um it’s my personal belief that it came from outside influences and, and you can actually see there’s, there’s a few different books written about this that polygamy did not start in the latter day saint church. It was
[08:43] Michelle: actually part of the accusations, the accusations against the church were because of the Cochrans because, and the, the different group, different religious groups were playing with marriage. So here’s a religious group, they’re probably playing with marriage. We don’t like it. That, that was the, that was the only smoke there. And they immediately said no, that’s not us. We’re not playing, that’s
[09:03] Gwendolyn Wyne: not us. We’re not doing that. And then the relief society as you say, they get established. And it’s to provide this reinforcement to scripture and to what the prophets are teaching that again, we don’t do this. So when the, when the women
[09:21] Michelle: go ahead, I’m just part of you go,
[09:25] Gwendolyn Wyne: ok, you’re gonna get in trouble if you uh so the women have, when the women have clear understanding of doctrine, then these sorts of terrors are not allowed to flourish, right? They may, they may plant and sprout but, but they don’t, they don’t flourish in the way that they do when the women are silenced.
[09:47] Michelle: Absolutely. They get root up uprooted by the knowledge of the women. I love that. Ok. That’s profound. And the men and the men too, we’re just talking about the Relief Society. Um, and just so everyone knows we are just have a seven hour distance and we’re doing this live. So that’s why there’s a little bit of floods and it’s ok. But there’s a lot of, yeah, the thing I had wanted to add was part of what Emma said at that first founding meeting of the Relief Society on March 2nd, 1818 42 I believe if I have the date, right? And she said, um, President Emma Smith then arose and proceeded to make appropriate remarks on the object of the society, its duties to others and its relative duties to each other. Um, to seek out and relieve the distressed. We know that’s part of what they wanted to do that each mem that each member should be ambitious to do good that the members should deal frankly with each other. And here’s the part that’s relevant to us, especially to watch over the morals and be very careful of the character and reputation of the members of the institution. That’s part of what they wanted to accomplish was the empowering the morals of the women so that none of these deceptions. So these deceptions would all be uprooted these tears.
[11:06] Gwendolyn Wyne: And in the, this more you mentioned to deal frankly with each other, that is to be honest, and forthright, um, you’re not lying or marrying people behind other, your wife’s back. I mean, that’s just not, that’s not right, a character of God. That’s not how God works. And that’s not how we should work. If we claim to be followers of God. That’s
[11:27] Michelle: beautiful because even, oh, how this topic of polygamy has corrupted even the relief society to where they were supposed to deal frankly with each other. I love that you brought that up. And, um, and, and instead we turn it to that. They were all betraying her and she was the president of the Relief Society. And her first counselor, according to our false tales, was sleeping with her husband behind her back like we ruin, polygamy, ruins everything. But um, can I just also read what Lucy Max? And then I
[11:56] Gwendolyn Wyne: want to read and then I want to read you something.
[11:58] Michelle: Yes. Ok. She said this institution is a good one. We, we must watch over ourselves. She said that she came into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to do good to get good and to get into the celestial kingdom. She said, um, we must cherish one another. Watch over one another, cherish one another. That’s what we’re talking about as opposed to the betrayal, right? Cherish one another watch over one another. Comfort one another and gain instruction that we may that we may all sit down in heaven together. The true idea behind and, and Lucy knew that jos, that her son wasn’t a polygamist. Emma knew that her husband wasn’t a polygamist. And we’ve listened to these later stories, I think Eliza Snow was in earnest when she was involved in this. It was later in Utah that the stories were created. And so getting back to that original, pure, true Ideal of Relief Society is, is our goal.
[12:58] Gwendolyn Wyne: Yeah, I completely agree. Um As you know, there was the voice of innocence was um was also read to the Relief Society. I’m gonna, if you don’t mind, I add
[13:10] Michelle: it to the stage for you. There you go. Yeah, this is this. Oh, there it is. I just added it. Yes.
[13:16] Gwendolyn Wyne: Thank you. I’ll read some of the History of the Voice of Innocence for those who have not heard of it. Um And uh and then I’ll read just a, a little snippet of it on March 7th, 1844 in a public meeting at the Nauvoo Temple before an audience of about 8000 church members. WW Phelps read aloud the voice of innocence to which the assembly responded by saying amen twice during an afternoon. Continuation of that meeting notice was given for the Relief Society to meet the following Saturday to adopt the statement written by Phelps since the meeting room could not accommodate all the members of the Relief society who wished to attend Emma Smith presided over three more meetings, one on the afternoon of March 9th and two on March 16th that all approved The Voice of Innocence. Um The version of The Voice of Innocence, amended by Emma Smith and read to the Release Society was then published in the Nauvoo Neighbor on March 20th, 1844. And uh the article included a brief introduction that explained that at four overflowing meetings of the ladies of Nauvoo members of the female Release Society. Um Each meeting being composed of different members that all might have the opportunity of expressing their feelings. Um The following preamble and resolutions were read and unanimously adopted at each meeting.
[14:47] Michelle: And then I just add quickly that it was written by Phelps, but it was commissioned by Joseph and Emma Joseph and Emma asked Phelps to write it on their behalf and then Emma edited it afterward.
[15:00] Gwendolyn Wyne: You’ll be shocked Michelle, but that wasn’t in the church’s narrative where I got that
[15:05] Michelle: history. Surprising. That’s why we have to add it, right. Phelps was acting as Joseph’s secretary when he wrote it as commissioned by Joseph. Thank you for adding Joseph and Emma. But yes, he was doing it on their behalf, right?
[15:22] Gwendolyn Wyne: Because sometimes people do say, um you know, this was added to the doctor and the covenant by Oliver Cowdrey or this was written by WW Phelps and Joseph had nothing to do with it. But, but you just read and you, you see that the meeting was at the temple and there were 8000 people there and Joseph sitting on the stand while it’s being read. So Joseph
[15:43] Michelle: spoke and presided at the meeting and had it read. Yes. And Joseph called Emma as well that I said that wrong. In that day, the relief society chose their own president. But Emma was chosen as the relief society president and, and Joseph ordained her and asked the women to all sustain her and, and to look to her. So he absolutely supported her in that role is every way pos in every way possible. The idea that a polygamous man would allow a disobedient wife to be the relief society president and use that office to fight polygamy is ridiculous.
[16:20] Gwendolyn Wyne: It doesn’t make a bit of sense. Not one bit. Uh Let me read just a little part of this and this was condemning, not just polygamy, but well, they, they called it all the different names, spiritual wifey, polygamy, all these different things. They never called it celestial plural marriage. Um I think because that term didn’t exist,
[16:46] Michelle: right? And if they had come up and said, if they had also added celestial plural marriage, the polygamist would have come up with another term and said, but Joseph didn’t say this right. Like,
[16:57] Gwendolyn Wyne: yeah. So they said that it becomes us in defense of our rights, for the glory of our fathers, for the honor of our mothers, for the happiness of our husbands and for the welfare of our dear Children to rebuke such an outrage upon the sanctity of society to thwart such a death blow at the hallowed marriage covenant and to ward off such poisoned daggers from the hearts of our innocent daughters. That’s just a little snippet. But that is exactly why it’s important to speak out about this now. Um, because it continues to be a death below at the hallowed marriage covenant. It, it does continue to pierce daughters hearts with daggers. It did for me from the moment I heard about polygamy as a young woman as a child. And then throughout my young woman, later years, it affected my dating, it affected marriage, it affected all these things. So thankfully, I have been healed through Christ. Uh But there are many people who are still in pain over this as you know, and there are many as you know, also many young women and women who are still in this system because of section 132. This is an ongoing, an ongoing system of oppression that we need to help our sisters out of and our brothers because we do love them. It doesn’t help them either.
[18:26] Michelle: I love it in so many ways. It continues to corrode faith and knowledge of God that it is one of the main reasons that people have left the church for these last several decades, especially, and it does continue to deceive us into believing that we cannot receive answers from God that we cannot receive truth, that we should be content to just not, not, don’t ask, don’t tell, don’t know things God won’t answer our prayers. That’s a deception. And it continues to deceive us about the very nature of God and limits our trust in God or at least gives us a false understanding of God. So people even who, who aren’t bothered by polygamy, there’s a tendency too often to that deception kind of feeds your lust, feeds your glory, your self glorification, even just thinking about it in the future, right? It’s imperative for us to truly understand the true nature of God as an entire people and who knows what light and knowledge could be poured out upon us as we collectively begin to understand and accept these truths as the answers, these prayers.
[19:34] Gwendolyn Wyne: Yes, I couldn’t agree more for anyone who’s in the, in the place of, I don’t know why I should care or maybe it doesn’t matter. I do encourage you to look up mysteries in the scriptures and read what God says about revealing the mysteries. Um This is not so very mysterious, but God will write, even if it was God could reveal it to us. And as you say, there’s a great deal of like knowledge that’s waiting upon us to accept. And actually, if I could read in, in Gen in Joseph Smith’s uh translation of Genesis, could I read that part? Oh, please. This is Genesis nine. sorry. If you hear background noise, my family just walked in.
[20:17] Michelle: How dare you have a family Gwen.
[20:21] Gwendolyn Wyne: I told them to be gone, but here they are all right. So in Genesis chapter nine, the Joseph Smith translation talks about the covenant that God made with Enoch. And this is mine everlasting covenant verse 22. That when thy posterity shall embrace the truth and look upward, then shall Zion look downward and all the heaven shall shake with gladness and the earth shall tremble with joy. And it goes on. But um I just wanted to share that, that embracing the truth and looking upward is, is so much harder than, than it should be. We can do it. It’s hard to do, but it does take a great deal of faith and fasting and prayer will I think help us to achieve that.
[21:06] Michelle: Uh Yeah. And you know what though, that’s the glorious vision that we are attracted to that. That’s what we’re aiming for. That’s what is possible for us. And actually the only hard part is just turning is what we’re fasting for. Just that little opening. Once you create that little opening, then God rushes in, right? And it gets from and then your burdens are lifted. It’s like anybody who has been awakened to the truth about polygamy. It does, it does create other um things you need to think through and work through with the Lord, but I haven’t had one person feel like it added a burden to their shoulders rather than removing one, the, the light, the joy, the freedom, the elevated spiritual feeling that you get is profound. It’s beautiful and amazing and just so exciting like it makes you more excited to continue to learn, to
[21:59] Gwendolyn Wyne: continue. It’s a liberation. It’s a liberation and so much anticipation and the scriptures do come alive because you see, oh, we aren’t, we aren’t this all knowing group who’s had it all right this whole time. And we can look at everybody else in scripture and see how they did it wrong. We look in scripture and we say there we are, were those people who think they’re doing it all right. And you see how much you personally need to repent and it’s been very humbling to me to see that I was wrong in this way about God.
[22:31] Michelle: Oh, so true. I love that. It does. It makes it exciting because instead of just reading past all of the promises and being like, ah some day in God’s time whenever you start to take some ownership, that’s what this is about. That’s the responsibility that we’ve been given. That’s the opportunity that we have before us if we will accept it and it does breathe new life into everything we believe. And that’s what we want for all of the saints. That’s Yeah. So OK, anything else you wanna share?
[23:00] Gwendolyn Wyne: Um I just wanna say that uh for, for uh for many people, it’s very hard to consider this because of the leaders of the church. They love the leaders and they are afraid or concerned or whatever word you want to use that this would um in some day, in some way, undermine them or, or say, you know, now you’re saying they don’t matter. And I just think it’s really important for us to remember who we are supposed to be having our faith placed in. And it’s, it’s God, it’s Christ. Um we are not supposed to place faith in men. And if we set up our leaders as idols, right? If we say that they are the ones who are closest to God, and we cannot get as close to God as they can, then we do set them up as an idol. And God tells us in Isaiah that he will throw down all the idols. So if we love our leaders, we do not want to set them up as idols because they will be thrown down. If we refuse to seek out truth because of them, then God will have to move them out of our way so that we will see truth. So if we can reframe the way that we think about our leaders, and also um I know that you have a great deal of compassion for them. They’re in an impossible situation because they have been put into a very complicated structure. And they can’t just individually say Well, polygamy is not of God. They, they, they’ve got quorums of unanimity and all sorts of, oh, boy, we’ve got little shadows.
[24:43] Michelle: Well, and the responsibility of all of the members. Hello. The responsibility that of, of people who are still attached to this. Hi, guys. And you guys? Very sweet. Um, also it’s good to recognize that our leaders were brought up in the same exact system with the same exact understanding that all of us were. So they’re in the same struggle and we’re praying also for their hearts to be able to be opened. And then like you said, even when they do individually receive these answers that we’re all seeking together, it’s complicated, it’s complicated for a lot of people. And so, so I think we could, I just think the best thing we could do is as members keep spreading this message, open ourselves up to it because the more of us that understand it, the easier it makes it for them to be able to receive this message and be able to speak on it.
[25:41] Gwendolyn Wyne: And as you alluded to, we don’t know who knows what I’m sure that you’ve had many communications and, and I have from, from people um in varying places in the church and in the world who have come to this belief. Um And so we shouldn’t just assume that, that all the leaders believe one way and that um sorry about the background noise that all the all the leaders believe one way and that we, you and I are opposed to them because, uh I think I consider, we, we don’t know. And there are people who believe in this, who aren’t putting themselves on youtube but who believe it and, um, are absolutely uh worth, um, it’s just worth considering who might believe this, that would change my mind. And maybe if you’re willing to consider because maybe so and so believes it, then then consider it because don’t, don’t hang your belief on whether someone else believes it or not. If you’re going to then start considering it now because you don’t know, they might already believe it.
[26:50] Michelle: That’s ok. That’s, that’s a really interesting insight and I’ll let you go, I can tell your family needs you. But the last thing is also is God just like you said, God doesn’t want us to put our trust in, in, in men, in flesh, right? We’re not supposed to have idols. I think that also goes for the institution, right? We can, we can allow the institution to be what it is at this time. And we can each go to God having faith and trust in God that God can lead us to the answers we need to receive that. God can tell us what we, where we should be, how we can navigate this. It really is that comes down to faith versus fear, right? And if truth is what we want then we can just choose faith and know, ok, this is the truth of God. Yeah, there are messy things but God’s got this and God’s got me and I can just cling to the truth without fear and know God’s going to work it out.
[27:41] Gwendolyn Wyne: So, yeah, that, that tree of life, you access it by holding on to the iron rod and it’s a one by one. That’s how you make your way there.
[27:50] Michelle: Right? So Gwendolyn, I’m really excited about this. I hope that people will, yes, I hope that people will accept the invitation as they feel inspired and um spread this as they feel inspired because I do. I just always think the faithful, the faithful, oh, I’m gonna put the fervent prayer of a righteous man aileth much, right? And I think that goes for women and men. That’s all of us. And we don’t know what God can do. And if we exercise our faith, our fasting and our prayer in this way, it could bear beautiful
[28:24] Gwendolyn Wyne: fruit. I completely agree. Amen. Thank you. OK.
[28:29] Michelle: Thank you so much. Thank you everyone for tuning in and we, well, I, I don’t think I’m doing a special on Sunday for the fast, but no, that we will, we will both be fasting so we will see you later.
[28:42] Gwendolyn Wyne: Bye.
