78: RLDS Church History and Defending Joseph w/ Cheryl and Dan Clute | 132 Problems

As a life-long and a long-time member of the RLDS church, Cheryl and Dan Clute experienced the RLDS theological changes and church division personally — at ground zero. It is fascinating and enlightening to hear their experience. They have spent decades helping to spread information about their perspective on the restoration with their LDS brothers and sisters, and they have been extremely willing to help me, which I appreciate immensely. This fun conversation both taught me a ton and gave me a lot of food for thought.

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Transcript:

[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 problems revisiting Mormon polygamy, where we explore the scriptural and theological case for plural marriage. And now the historical case for Joseph’s plural marriage, I had the great opportunity to sit down and talk to Cheryl and Dan Clute, who are, I was going to say members of the RLDS church, but that’s a complicated story. So I am so excited to introduce them to you and let them tell you some of their history and their contribution to these important discussions. As always, I do recommend listening to these episodes from the beginning since that is the most important part of this discussion in my, in my opinion, although I love where the conversation has gone over this year and a half that I’ve been doing this so far. I also want to again invite anybody who feels um the the desire to subscribe to this podcast to share it. That really helps me and I always appreciate those who are so willing to help support this podcast financially. Thank you so much for your help. So thank you for joining us for this episode as we take a deep dive into the complicated history of Joseph’s Polygamy. Welcome to this special episode of a 132 Problems. I am so excited to introduce you to some of the people that I have gotten to meet along this journey. It’s so interesting because when I started this podcast, I was, I felt all by myself, I felt all alone. I didn’t know anybody else in these conversations. And as I’ve been doing this and progressed and I have just met person after person who is engaged in the same effort and who has reached out to help and to collaborate. And so this is Cheryl and Dan Klute who are just amazing. They have sent me resources and books and quotes and been such a huge help and I am so I have been so excited, I got to meet them last month, I think when they came out to Utah and um got to hear a little bit of their story and I am so excited to let some of you get to know my new friends. So, Cheryl and Dan, thank you so much for coming on this episode with me and I would love it if you would just go ahead and kind of give us a cursory introduction of yourselves and how you are involved in this topic and who you are.

[02:26] Cheryl Clute: OK. Well, I uh am 6th generation church member. Um My family was in Nauvoo and uh they were actually neighbors with Joseph Smith senior and Lucy Mack when they had a farm about five miles outside of Nauvoo. And I had, uh, several uncles that were missionaries. And, uh, actually I got out my mom’s stuff last night and looked at it and, uh, I thought this was interesting because I had not remembered it. It’s been so long since I read it. But my great great uncle Julius, he was, uh, he was called to the office of elder by Joseph Smith. And, uh, he was actually baptized by Lyman White. Then he was called to the, to the, uh, be an elder by Joseph Smith and he was ordained by William Smith and John Baer. And, uh, he traveled all through New York and some of his traveling companions were Michael Jacobs Edwin, Little Ralph Young William Redfield, William Hyde, Joseph West and Orson Pratt. Um, then he was later on called to be a 70 he was a member of the second quorum of seventies. And so anyway, they, he was, he, uh, his uncle Alfred also was a high priest, but I haven’t really found too much about him. But anyway, that was in my mother’s, um, genealogy papers.

[04:00] Michelle: But that’s incredible. What’s their last name? What’s Julius says in Alfred’s last name? It’s

[04:04] Cheryl Clute: Guan, it’s Guinand Guan and their Switz, their parents were from Switzerland and France. And, uh, they, they came over here, um, and then they found the gospel once they got into Kentucky And so anyway, um so they, they stayed in. Um

[04:30] Michelle: So you’re from pioneer stock, you’re from like original pioneer stock just in a very different way than I am because your ancestors stayed in Nauvoo and stayed with Emma and, well, Joseph Smith, the third’s church that was started by Howard Briggs. So the original RLDS church is where your

[04:51] Cheryl Clute: ancestors actually, what they did Michelle is they stayed there for some time And then later on when it got really, I guess the persecution got really bad. They moved and they went across Iowa. Some se some of my ancestors settled in Nebraska and some went on down to where Saint Joseph Missouri is, but right across the river on the Kansas side in Atchison, Kansas. And so it was in the 18 sixties is when Jo Well, Joseph Smith third took over the church in 1860 and it was in uh the 18 sixties. Um Joseph the third sent out missionaries to find those scattered saints that had not gone within the other factions. And um there was a brother Green, I wish I could remember his first name, but he came to their home and um talked to my family and my uncles questioned him up and down about, do you practice polygamy? Do you have blood atonement? Do you have Adam God, do you have this? That and every answer was no, no, no. And so later on, it wasn’t too long after that um, they came into the reorganization under their original baptisms and ordinations. They did, they were never reb because they had not gone with any factions. So, their baptisms and priesthood was still straight out of the days of Joseph Smith.

[06:18] Michelle: Isn’t that interesting? So, the RLDS didn’t practice re baptism. They didn’t need to be rebaptized into a new church. Whereas the LDS did need to do well, I don’t know if they needed to, but they did do re baptism. That was a huge part of the reformation. That’s fascinating. OK. So you are, you are from old time RLDS stock born and raised in the RLDS church. Is that right? And in Missouri is that

[06:45] Cheryl Clute: independence? Independence, my family came to independence in the 18 eighties. They still lived in Nebraska and, and, and on the Kansas side, but they did end up moving here in the 18 eighties when the stone, the first RLDS church that was built uh was being built about that same time. They moved in here in the 18 eighties.

[07:13] Michelle: And I love hearing that Joseph the third did a gathering. I didn’t know that, that he sent missionaries out trying to find all of the dispersed saints that you know, had dispersed after the martyrdom. And that’s, that’s actually a beautiful story. I didn’t realize

[07:27] Cheryl Clute: that the book that I sent you called uh the autobiography of Charles Dry on two pages in there where my Uncle Alfred’s name is mentioned.

[07:38] Michelle: Ok. And I have to say, yeah, Sheryl has sent me so many books and I haven’t gotten through, I’ve looked in portions and she highlights for me and helps me find things. But I have so much reading to do to catch up with where you guys have been. So, ok. So Cheryl that, well, maybe we can talk a little bit about Dan’s heritage and then, and then talk a little, get more up to date if that’s all right.

[08:02] Dan Clute: I wasn’t a member, was not a member of the church. I lived in, grew up in Kansas City, which is west to hear about, of independence, about 10 miles west. And uh on my mom’s side was Catholic. Uh on my dad’s side, my grandmother was Pentecostal. And so I had those two options, but just never, uh you know, went either direction with it, but they were still both good influences. And even though I lived only 10 miles from independence, believe it or not, it wasn’t until we moved here when I was gonna start the eighth grade that I even heard the word uh R LDS church book of Mormon, Joseph Smith. I only lived 10 miles from here and never heard those words. And so when I met Cheryl in high school, you know, of course, you’ve heard her history there. And so she kind of introduced me uh to the, the church and mentioned I belong to the true church. And I didn’t really know anything much about churches. But also I knew that, well, there’s a lot of churches out there. And I asked her, how do you know, how, how do you know your church is the true church? You know, and some people criticize that term nowadays. Uh we won’t get into that, but it is mentioned twice in the doctrine and covenants and the term true church is also mentioned twice in the book of Mormon. So, but, but anyway, uh kind of a long story, but uh myself, my brother in law and a friend of my brother in law’s, we had what they call cottage meetings where they introduce you to the teachings of the church and it can go seven weeks or so. And uh it’s lasted

[09:51] Cheryl Clute: a year

[09:52] Dan Clute: and ours lasted a year, I guess we were hard. Wow. Yeah, there was a guy that did it, he did a long time. Then another guy did what they call the Go Ye Teach series, which was uh something to introduce potential converts to. It was a slide presentation. So went through that and I was always backwards and shy and not much of a talker. And, you know, someone said one time that all it takes for someone to become a Christian is just to invite them and ask them. And I kind of thought that seems a little weird. But my right outside the door here where we live, my brother in law. I remember walking up the driveway and it says Warren and I are gonna be baptized. Do you want to be baptized? And I said yes. And I don’t know how long it would have taken me if I’d just got up the courage to do it myself. But anyway, I was baptized and, um, 1977 if I remember. Is that right? She’s got April

[10:48] Cheryl Clute: 1976 weeks before we get, we got married and I wouldn’t have married him. He didn’t know that if he hadn’t have been a member of the church. I said a silent prayer, Michelle. And I told him not a member of the church, I’m not gonna marry him because I don’t want to be wake in the faith. So I was gonna leave him standing at the altar.

[11:07] Michelle: So you were already engaged. You were already engaged when he was baptized.

[11:13] Dan Clute: But I remember, uh sitting at a prayer service right before the prayer service started. And I decided, well, I really need to start reading the three books of the church. And so I decided, uh, the first book that I would start with would be the Doctrine and covenants. You know why? Because it’s the smallest book. Mhm. And I, with the Mormon than to the Old and New Testament. But I remember reading like the first few lines, I believe it was Section one baby. Section two. And I didn’t hear an audible voice. But in my mind, I, I heard these are not the words of man, these are the words of God and we’re talking, I was, I was reading the doctor and covenants, you know, the doc doctor and covenants has been under attack at different times for different things. And even today it is, but that was a testimony that served me well, years later when there was a man that was inviting people into homes to show them what to put in their doctrine and covenants scratch this out and I’ll tell you what to write in it, you know, because uh well, the do. Yeah, so he

[12:20] Cheryl Clute: was using the book of commandments. Uh The other guy was

[12:23] Dan Clute: so we’ve, I believe the Lord was preparing me with that experience with the doctrine covens for what was to come in the future with, with it. But anyway, um that II, I read all three books and, and I cross referenced the three books and found no contradictions. And so my focus really for a lot of years was just with scriptures. I never got into church history. Didn’t care too much about church history until was it mid nineties when we got our 1st 97 we got our first computer. She got on AOL Mormon’s questions and answers chat room.

[13:01] Cheryl Clute: I just wanted to go see what it was. I, you know, I was just sitting there as a spectator just seeing and, and so I went in there and it was always crowded. There was like 21 people in the room, but there was a lot of anti people in there. So I would just listen. And so then one thing led to another. And this one day I went in there and it was just me and these two Mormon elders sit in there and I was just sitting there while they were chatting back and forth. And finally, this one Mormon elder said to me, you’re in here almost every day. Do you wanna know about the church? And I said, no, I don’t think so. And he goes, are you LDS? And I said, no, I’m R LDS. Well, then they started just asking me all sorts of questions. And so we’re the best kept secret. So this was, you really are. This is 1997. And, and uh the next thing you know, Michelle, I had all these elder uh Mormon elders people in the LDS church from Utah, Idaho, California, Arizona. I’ve mailed packages starting in 1997. They would ask me for materials and they wanted to know the differences. And I would say, well, I’ll, I’ll uh I’ll send them to you and I’ll never forget you got it. This is really funny. You’re gonna love this one. So one day I was talking to this Mormon elder and, and he lived in Tempe Arizona. I’ll never forget this. And he wanted to know if I’d send him some materials and I said, sure, I’ll be glad to do that. Give me your address. And he’s like, well, I don’t want you sending it to my home, send it to my workplace. And I’m like, where do you work at? And he goes, I work at a hospital and I said, I’m not gonna mail no books, no hospital office, you know, I’m not gonna do that. And I said, here’s my address. If you don’t trust me, you know, you know, we’ve been talking long enough. If you still don’t trust me, then I don’t know what to tell you. And he goes, well, I just, I just don’t want any bombs showing up at my house. And I, you know what I said, I said, well, I don’t want any danites coming to my door, you know, and he said, you know about them, huh? I said absolutely. And so anyway, I said,

[15:17] Michelle: what year was this? What

[15:19] Cheryl Clute: was this? I was just

[15:21] Michelle: thinking from my understanding, the LDS have a bigger problem with bombs than the R LDS, right? Like that seems to be kind of in reverse.

[15:32] Cheryl Clute: Yeah. So I just, I sent him the books and he, he, you know, I don’t know what happened, you know, I, I guess he read them. But, but anyway, so we, that’s what we did. But I, we had really interesting experiences. We met lots and lots of really nice LDS. People in that room, but we never personally got to meet them. And so, um this uh I was trying to remember the story. This was it the, the guy. And now brain brain fog here while

[16:05] Michelle: you’re remembering, while you’re remembering. Let me ask, do you call yourself Mormons? What do the R LDS call themselves uh

[16:13] Cheryl Clute: restoration?

[16:16] Michelle: So that was

[16:16] Cheryl Clute: before Latter Day Saints, either one, latter

[16:19] Michelle: Day Saints. So you weren’t OK because we have the interesting, like my mom wrote the song, I’m a Mormon, which I grew up singing, you know, and then we have the interesting President Nelson trying to get us away from Mormons. President Hinckley saying no, Mormon means more good than President Nelson saying it’s a victory for Satan when we’re called Mormons. Like it’s been this interesting journey we have with our own name. You guys haven’t been, had similar problems like you, you already rejected the name Mormon. Yeah.

[16:48] Cheryl Clute: Now I remember what it was. This, this guy came into the room on AOL one day and he was an anti, a very strong anti and he was really debating with the Mormon elders and just Tarron Joseph Smith the pieces. Well, I’d already told my Mormon elder friends in there. I will never defend Brigham Young, but I will Joseph in this room there that day, there was 21 people in there and I had uh all these things on my computer where I could just copy and paste and put it up on the screen, you know. And so this guy, he was just letting him have it and I said that’s it. I’ve had it. I can’t take it no more. So I just started bomb guarding him with all these quotes from Joseph Smith and the book of Mormon and all this and that, you know, and, and all the Mormon elders in that room just shut up. They just let me have it and we went at it for like 30 minutes at least. And finally, that guy got so mad that at me, he, he said, I’m leaving, I’m out of here. And I said, yeah, it got too hot out. You got to get out of the kitchen, didn’t you? And he left whoever came back again. Well, right. And then so I just sat there and then literally, I bet at least 15 people in that room came up one LDS person at a time, thanking me for standing up for Joseph Smith and the gospel. And I said, I will do that when it comes to Joseph Smith and the gospel. But I can’t do that for Brigham Young.

[18:21] Michelle: Ok. Ok. I’m trying to find the quote that you sent me from Emma Smith. Do you have that right off hand? I can find it if you don’t. Which one? Um oh, that she said to Brigham Young about the, the first principles of his, of his gospel. Do you do you have that memorized? I’ll look for it. I don’t

[18:40] Cheryl Clute: have it right here with me, but I know what you’re talking about years ago.

[18:44] Dan Clute: No, I don’t. I

[18:46] Cheryl Clute: was lying and

[18:49] Dan Clute: lying and deception when we were in this Mormon question answer room. What mid late nineties, whatever it was is when I realized I, I’ve been reading a lot of doctrinal things, scripture things, but I wasn’t very good on the history, church history. And as getting in that room, I realized I needed to kind of figure out what happened when Joseph and Hyrum were killed. Uh the history of what happened afterwards, you know, especially between the R LDS and, and the Utah LDS, the difference is so I back then I was everything I could find. I was just reading everything and so that it was back then, probably when I read that quote of Emma, it’s, and like I said, it’s been a long time ago and I can’t remember, I’d have to really dig, I can’t remember to document it when she made that statement. But uh I, this interview would have probably been a whole lot better back then because like I said at that time, I just, that’s all I focused on is all the, everything I could find on both sides of the differences, you know, and going at it back then on different topics, you know, succession and presidency, the polygamy thing. And, you know, OK, I

[20:02] Michelle: found this quote. Let me show this quote because I don’t want to interrupt you and I want to be able to focus fully. This is the one you sent me that said, Sister Emma incidentally mentioned that she once told Brigham Young and Hebrew C Kimball to their faces that the first two principles of their religion were deception and lying. That’s intense. All she remarked further there in that, that herein was the cause for Brigham Brigham Young saying that um she taught her Children to lie. So that was the reason he, he had so much against her. And that was from Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that

[20:33] Cheryl Clute: Early Hearst, was it in the early history book?

[20:36] Michelle: You said it was in volume three of Richard and Pamela Price?

[20:40] Cheryl Clute: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know. Yeah, it’s, it is.

[20:45] Michelle: So I’m sorry that I’m sorry that I stopped you. But so Dan, so you were really studying in depth the R LDS versus the LDS, the succession crisis and Brigham Young versus I guess what happened with, with Briggs and Gurley, right? And then Joseph Smith the third. So that’s a fascinating because like I said before, we, since we’re the biggest, we don’t, we don’t, we’re not aware of the other groups very much, right? Because we just have kind of arrogantly thought we were the Mormons. So I have loved meeting other people. So continue, I’m sorry, I’m interrupting

[21:22] Dan Clute: uh the, the, the or the church reorganized that I want to say around uh 1853 and Joseph Third didn’t come along until 1860 when Jos Joseph third and Emma United with the organization. And uh so

[21:39] Michelle: after a lot of coaxing, right, like they were very hesitant, they had to be asked and repeatedly. And that Joseph the third had to be told by the Lord that it was, they’d had their fill of religion is my understanding. So,

[21:50] Dan Clute: like Edmund Briggs, and I think it was Samuel Gurley, uh tried to visit with him in Nabu and he absolutely refused. He wouldn’t talk. And there were people from the LDS church in Utah that would come to him and want to talk. He absolutely refused to talk to anyone about religion. And I, I believe the reason for that is that he knew that he had been set apart several times. In fact, I’ve read recently right before Joseph went to Carthage was the last time that he laid hands on his son and set him apart or designated him. It wasn’t like an ordination, but setting apart or designating him to be his successor, he wouldn’t leave to go to Carthage jail. That was the last thing he did before he went to car. But uh anyway, but Joseph was aware of that. He was 12. If I remember, right? He was 12 when his father was killed, Joseph the third was 12 years old. So obviously, he couldn’t leave the church he was only 12. But he, he knew that, uh, several gosh, at least how many, four times, at least you got four accounts of four different accounts, uh, red brick store and, uh, uh, even in Liberty jail and even in the, the grove behind the Nauvoo temple where they would preach back there would be 1000 people or more at times. And he stopped and pointed, he had Joseph the third up on the stand and little boy. And he said, someone asked who if something you know, was to happen to me, who would be my successor. And he pointed to his son up on the stand and said, there’s my successor. So, you know, Brigham and people, a lot of people went out west uh with, with Brigham, with the idea that Joseph the third would eventually uh lead the church out there. And it wasn’t until Joseph and his brothers went out there and started opposing things. And after that took place, there was never another a mention of Joseph the third leading the church out in Utah,

[23:55] Michelle: right? And we have quotes from Brigham Young also implying that he knew that, you know that if they would live up to what they were supposed to, if they would come and be obedient to us, they could take their rightful place. So it does seem to be that that was the expectation is that. And also um Joseph F Smith, the son of Hyrum I, I my understanding is him being sort of nurtured in and called as an apostle as a young man, even though he was pretty wild, was, was because of the succession claims we needed a Smith as well to combat the R LDS. Like, like a lot of this, a lot of things happened because of the competition between the LDS and the R LDS. It seems to me

[24:36] Dan Clute: and I go going back now, Joseph the third. The reason I believe he did would not talk with anyone. Doesn’t matter. Our LDS background LDS from Utah. Uh was he knew that he had this calling but only the, he had answered questions for the Lord that only the Lord could answer. And I don’t think he wanted to be influenced by anyone from either side as to where his life’s work for the Lord would be. And that’s why he wouldn’t talk to any of them. He just didn’t want that influence. Uh He wanted it to come from the Lord where his work would be. And Emma, it’s in Jason uh Edmund Briggs book, Early History of the Organization. That’s a good book because he interviews a lot of saints that were in the church when Joseph and Hyrum were alive. He, he eventually did get to talk with Joseph the third and he did get to interview Emma. Uh Edmund Briggs did and he asked Emma, did you ever try to influence your son as to where, who or where their life’s work would be in the church. And she said, no, she and she gave two reasons. Uh Number one, the reason she didn’t influence him is because she believed that the same God who called her husband to the work that he had that same God, if he had to work for my sons would reveal what their work would be and with whom and so on and so forth. So she said, I never tried to influence my sons on whatever their work would be in the church. And the other reason why she would never influence her sons concerning their church work is she said, because I suffered so much. Uh and she didn’t wanna give probably counsel that may cause them suffering. But that was the other reason she believed that God would reveal to them what their work would be. And she said, I, I wouldn’t counsel him because I suffered so much so. But eventually Joseph the third did, did get his testimony where his life’s work would be. And it, you know, and that’s, and he united with the organization in 1860. The organization had, it had been through prophecy from the Lord. They knew that eventually Joseph the third was gonna unite with the reorganization because remember they organized in 1853 Joseph third didn’t come along to 1860.

[26:59] Michelle: Yeah, I’ve read Jason Briggs um revelation that he had that led to the establishment and I have that episode. If anyone hasn’t watched that episode on the R LDS church, then um they can catch up on that one for any information. They want. Another

[27:13] Dan Clute: thing that’s interesting is those people that organized the R LDS church, they were just meeting in prayer services. They had no intention of organizing a church and they were just meeting and they were having the gifts of the spirit tongues, prophecy, things like this. And they had a couple questions uh that they wanted to take to the Lord because they, one of them was they were writing a pamphlet and they had written some and they want to know from the Lord. Is this sufficient or should we add more and believe it or not? The other, the other question they had because I’m sure it was a topic of perpetual conversation. The other question they had for the Lord is polygamy of God. And they got their answer and there were three more pages that needed to be written. It was called the Word of Constellation. And they got an answer. I, I if I can find on my phone fairly quick, the Lord to when they asked the question, believe me of, of, of God, he told them they got an answer.

[28:20] Cheryl Clute: Wow. And the pamphlet is still available at latter day truth.org right now. You can,

[28:27] Dan Clute: I can send that. Maybe I could get on my phone. It might take just a little bit, but I can read. It’s not very long. But let me tell you, it was a polygamy was not.

[28:37] Michelle: I would love, I might send you a list of things we’ve talked about if you can send me links and resources and definitely the restoration bookstore link. So people can get some of these books and, and, and, you know, I would love to be able to let people see the evidence for the things we’re talking about. Yeah.

[28:53] Dan Clute: And, and going back, uh when they was asking these questions, uh part of the answer that they, they said at first, the spirit intimated that we should organize and I think it was Gurley. Uh the dad, he said, I think he said that if I remember, right? This is strange teaching or, or strange doctrine or something like that to us. In other words, they wasn’t going into this trying to organize a church that wasn’t their intention at all. At that time, they’re writing a pamphlet that polygamy of God. They’re meeting in prayer services, praying, testifying and, and things like that. And they said, the spirit intimated that we should organize. And that was strange. And actually they said they passed that off part off of their answers as not being from the Lord about organizing until at least two more times being commanded to organize. And they said at this point, after being commanded organized, it would be disobedience to God not to organize the the thing I like about this is we have a lot of people out here after the split that organized churches.

[30:07] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. I want, I want, I want, can we pause and go back? Because I, because that’s, I Cheryl, I feel like I cut you off a little bit. Did you have more history that you wanted to give us about? So, you’ve been a lifelong member, but it wasn’t really until 94. And that LDS chat room that you both started to dive into. The history is that 1990

[30:30] Cheryl Clute: seven,

[30:31] Michelle: 1997. OK. And that’s

[30:34] Cheryl Clute: when he started, I grew up my, my great aunt Marie, she was 1/4 generation church member and it was her family that the GS, she was a Ghana and she was like my grandmother and uh we were with her all the time and she would share experiences. She was born in 1888. And so she would tell me about her Uncle Alfred that was in Nauvoo that, you know, would tell her these things. And then Aunt Marie would tell me about him and she died when I was 20. But my, my grandmother was her sister and my grandmother died of TB when my mother was two months old. So my grandfather, he was single for probably three or four years and then he got remarried. So during that time, my mother was and he was a traveling salesman. So during that time um my mother lived with my great Aunt Marie and my great grandmother Ganan. And so that’s why my Aunt Marie was like my grandmother. And uh so I got to hear firsthand accounts of so much stuff from her about every, about all sorts of stuff.

[31:48] Michelle: That’s amazing. Ok. And did you find that quote, Dan

[31:52] Dan Clute: is the answer to the question is polygamy of God. I’ve got it if you want me to read

[31:57] Michelle: it.

[31:59] Dan Clute: OK. Uh And this is elder Zeus H Gley senior. Uh right in his plain unvarnished way relates some of the difficulties under which they labored and in connection with these rec records, some wonderful manifestations and experiences, particularly the results of a meeting held early in January 1853 in which he speaks of certain questions being presented to the Lord in prayer and of answers received. He writes his following. This is quote accordingly. The subject was presented as follow f follows. First is polygamy of God. Question mark. Second is any addition necessary to the pamphlet before its publication. Before opening the meeting, we made the church acquainted with our design. And while singing the opening hymn, the Holy Spirit was sensibly felt several sung and tongues and while engaged in prayer, the veil was at least partly rent and the manifestation of the spirit was such as was seldom witnessed by mortals on earth. I have been a member of the church some 23 years and in the course of my ministry. I witnessed the manifestation of the spirit in many of the branches but never had witnessed what I did that evening. God was truly with us and many felt to say with the poet, angels are now hovering or us. This was on the eve of the ninth of January 1853 ever memorable with the saints of God. About half an hour afterwards, we we received through the spirit the following as nearly as we could write it. And this is the answer to the question is polygamy of God that, that they took to the Lord. And this is quote, polygamy is an abomination in the sight of the Lord God. It is not of me. I abhor it, I abhor it as also the doctrines of the Nicolas and the men or set of men who practice it. I judge them not, I judge not those who practice it, their works, their works shall judge them at the last day. Be ye strong, ye shall contend against this doctrine. Many will be led into it honestly, for the devil will seek to establish it and roll it forth to deceive. They seek to build up their own kingdoms to suit their own pleasures. But I countenance it not saith God. I have given my law. I shrink not from my word. My law is given in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants section 42 and section 49. We, we know what that says about one wife for one man. My law is given the book of doctor and covenants, but they have disregarded my law and trampled upon it and counted it a light thing and obeyed it not. But my word is the same yesterday today and forever. And this is our old church history volume. Three pages 214 and, and, and 215. But remember he says he’s the same yesterday today and forever. This is one thing I wanted, this is one thing I wanted to point out as I thought about this recently Joseph Smith. And I’m kind of reading from my computer over here, Joseph Smith or any other person could not receive a revelation from God providing for polygamy. Could not absolutely could not. Uh John Taylor. Um He says, and, and I kind of this is good advice here. If any man writes to you or preaches to you doctrines, contrary to the Bible, the book of Mormon or the book of Doctrine. Covenants set him down as an impostor. You need not write to us to know what you are to do with such men. Try them by the principles contained in the acknowledged word of God. If they preach or teach or practice contrary to that, the three books, dis fellowship them, cut them off from among you as useless and dangerous branches, Times and Seasons. Volume five page 490. And also Orson Pratt’s work page eight public discussion. So,

[36:20] Michelle: so what date was that? What’s the date on that?

[36:23] Dan Clute: Oh, I’d have to go back. Yeah, I’d have to go back. I didn’t write the date down. Um, that

[36:28] Michelle: was before the Martyrdom though.

[36:31] Dan Clute: I have to, uh, type, I’d have to look.

[36:36] Michelle: Ok, I’ll see if I can look it up. You keep going.

[36:38] Dan Clute: Yeah. II, I didn’t give a date because there was so much stuff. Ok. So, anything contrary to the Bible book of Mormon and doctor and covenant set him down as impostors. And uh so what there, I found at least 15 references in the Bible book of Mormon doctrine and Covent stating that God does not change and never varies from that, which he has said at least 15 in the first section. Section two and, and I, and our LDS and I know yours read the same. I’m not sure I should have had a scripture reference for the LDS, but it may be the same.

[37:16] Michelle: I’ll look it up. I know that 49 includes that.

[37:19] Dan Clute: So I was gonna, so again, I’m trying to, as I thought about this, God cannot or ever will give a revelation providing polygamy to anybody. And the reason is, and I’ll read from section uh two, you’ll recognize it. Two verse 18, the works and the designs and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated. Neither can they come to not for God doth, not walk in crooked paths, you know, he doesn’t provide for polygamy here and then condemn it there. Neither Doth he turn to the right hand nor to the left. Neither Doth He vary from that which he hath said therefore, for his paths are straight in his course is one eternal round. Uh Like I said, Mormon 842 he changes not if it’s so he would cease to be God. If he changed. If he varied from what he said, he would literally cease to be God and James uh the Father of Lights with whom is no variables, neither shadow of turning. OK. And then section 27 4 C neither shall anything be appointed unto any of this church that includes Joseph Junior, Brigham Young or anyone else. Contrary to the church, covenants for all things must be done in order and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith. OK. Neither shall anything be appointed into any of this church.

[38:48] Michelle: And that common consent piece, that common consent piece is also critical because according to all of the N the LDS narrative, this was all secret, it was all done, you know 101 was taken away in Utah and section 132 added without none of this happened by common consent. That’s a really important piece that we shouldn’t just gloss over and

[39:09] Dan Clute: every revelation that came through Joseph, that ended up in the doctrine covenants in 1835. Every one of those revelations had to pass through every quorum of the church and be approved unanimously. And it says that then Joseph said this, if it come up against a snag is how he termed it. In other words, if someone had a problem, it would stop right there, they would discuss it, work it out and, and, and every revelation would have to pass through every form of the church unanimously and then go to a general conference so to speak and be passed there. And that’s what the 80 1835 edition of the Doctrine and covenants did. That’s the process. The never went through that process. And some people will say, well, Joseph wasn’t at that conference in 1830. He wasn’t even there. But guess what, Joseph and Hiram lived till from to 1844 8889 years, whatever that is while the Doctrine and covenants was in existence and never spoke a word against it, in fact, spoke in favor of

[40:20] Michelle: covenants. They also were the head of the committee of putting it together. So they did all of the preparation work for the 1835. He just wasn’t at the meeting where it was where it was sustained and he headed up the committee to prepare the 1844 and he didn’t take out section 101 or section 49 or any of. And he didn’t add anything that would authorize or even allow for any of these secret doctrines. I love the quote you read by John Taylor because it’s also similar to what Hiram Smith said. He, he gave several sermons saying these are the, the the law of God is found in these doc in these books. If anyone says anything beyond them, you lay them down as an apostle. And he also said that no, if anyone comes to you teaching anything contrary to the old established laws, then you kick them out, right? And that’s part of what you know, we have later stories of Brigham young kind of mocking Hiram for saying that. And Joseph, according to Brigham, young Joseph had his hand over his face and said to Brigham get up like I need you to fix this. And Brigham roared like a lion and said, I wouldn’t give it a farthing, whatever the term was, I wouldn’t give anything for these three books. If it’s not for the Oracles of God and basically saying nothing that’s in these books matters is just what the leader of the church says. And so it’s, it’s fascinating to watch these things get twisted and turned around. II I find it so fascinating.

[41:43] Dan Clute: Yeah. So uh section two says, God will never vary from that, which he had said. Then we have uh section 42 the law of the church providing one woman for one man. And then we have section 49 also providing one woman for one man and in fact and, and again in the Bible uh book of Mormon and Doctor and covenants of many other references, one woman for one man. So and then all of a sudden down the road in eight what 1852 we have section 132 providing for many wives and concubines. So, so here’s God contradicting or here’s contradicting form revelation or something varying from that, which God has said another example uh Joseph and it was, it’s in the time of seasons. Volume three page 743 through 748.

[42:41] Michelle: And I will let people know that John Taylor quote was in 1844. I haven’t been able to find it exactly, but I’m guessing it was before the the volume five is 1844. So anyway, so continue and I’ll see if I can find the exact date.

[42:53] Dan Clute: So uh it, it was a track I think Joseph put out called Trying the Spirits. I got uh I can’t reach it. It’s on the floor. It was called Trying the Spirits. But it’s, well, it’s also and I’ll give you the reference I think I may have. But times and seasons volume three page 743 to 748. This the track that Joseph was called Trying the Spirits. But anyway, he, he gives different examples of things and he said there was a AAA church, a lady in the church, her husband was a missionary and this glorious personage appeared to her and, uh, she lived in New York. Yeah, it is. Try the spirits. Yeah. There, there, it is a lot of information in here. Other than, than part of what I’m reading here. But, uh, her husband was a missionary and he also said that, ok, uh, an angel of light, suppose Satan appearing as an angel of light. A sister in the state of New York had a vision who said it was told her that if she would go to a certain place in the woods, an angel would appear to her. She went at the appointed time and saw a glorious personage descending a raid in white. Remember Satan can appear as an angel of light with sandy colored hair. This is interesting. He commenced and told her to fear God and said that her husband was called to do great things but that he must not go more than 100 miles from home or he would not return. And then Joseph goes on to say, whereas God had called him to go to the ends of the earth.

[44:33] Michelle: Uh huh. We have that. Yeah.

[44:36] Dan Clute: Yeah. And that’s in Romans and in a where it talks about going to the ends of the earth. Ok. Um So there, so you got to be familiar with the scriptures, you see that he said many things this this person has said were true, many were false and, and his, her husband must have had a work to do somewhere more than 100 miles from home that Satan didn’t want him to go and, and accomplish. Ok. Uh

[45:07] Michelle: Well, I do kind of building on that. I do think that as I’ve been looking into the history more, I do think that there are whether they are actual visitations, you know, I think a lot of people kind of laugh at the idea of an angel with sandy colored hair because we are, we are less visionary people, you know, today. However, I do still think that people are influenced by spirits, whether they acknowledge it and recognize it or not. And there are these false spirits, like I do think that there are spirits of polygamy that come and you know, it can really fill you with this sense of pride and being special and being cho like I think that those early leaders, Heber and William Clayton and Brigham Young were being influenced by false spirits, right? I think that those are true doctrines and, and that’s why it’s so essential for all of us to have those teachings we have um like um well, Patrick Mason and in my, in our church talked about the three pronged stool and, and there is something to having uh to me the scriptures, the spirit and the church leaders throughout time or, you know, however, we look at that it is important to measure our personal inspiration against at least the scriptures to see what coincides because there are false spirits that teach us falsehoods.

[46:31] Dan Clute: Yeah. And, and uh Arthur Oakman, he was an apostle in their organization. Oh, that’s another story. He was kissed by an angel when he was a young boy. That’s a long story. He tells how poor they were in England. And basically, the angel said, this young lad will grow up to manhood. He’ll preach the gospel in many lands. Uh His ministry will be in part to his own people, which is in England. And he ended up being an apostle in the organization. What do they do gospel in many lands? But he was a mixture of inspiration and education and very powerful, very powerful minister. But reason I got to him just share a little bit briefly about him. One of the things Arthur Oakman, he said, you know, we’re told in Latter day revelation that we should read all good books. But he said, how do you know a good book unless you have some standard by which to judge? And obviously the standard by which we judge is the, is the three standard books. So we need to be familiar with those scriptures because see uh one another elder in the church said a lie is not much of a lie. If it’s all together a lie, the more truth you mix with a lie, the better the lie, it’s harder to do to deserve. And so just because a lot of truth is spoken and this is what’s going on here. A glorious person to sin many things it said was true. Uh Some were not about her husband, not going more than 100 miles away, but here’s what I was wanting to get to with all this. Uh Joseph says, how may it like men? How may it be asked? Was this known to be a bad angel by the color of his hair? Again, Joseph had seen many angels. I haven’t seen any. So I don’t really understand about the color of the hair thing. OK. Uh That is one of the signs that he can be known by and by his contradicting a former revelation,

[48:21] Michelle: which is the critical point for all of

[48:23] Dan Clute: us, for all this by his contradicting a form of revelation. So when you have the Lord in section two, say it never varies from that which he has said in other many several other scriptures. And, and then you have scripture providing for one wife 42 and 49. Then all of a sudden section 132 comes along contradicting former revelation. God could not give, that’s why I say God cannot give a revelation providing for polygamy to anybody the devil can. But that was some of my thoughts a little bit about that. Just this. Yeah. Last week I kind of bishop must be blameless. Yeah, the bishop. First time he th 32, a bishop then must be blameless. The husband of one wife, let the deacons be the husband of one wife. Uh And then it goes on, you know,

[49:16] Michelle: it’s throughout scripture. I do, I want to talk to you guys about. So one of we’re in such an interesting time. This is some of the points that I keep trying to contend is this certainty that Joseph was, of course, a polygamist I think is outdated because we keep getting more and more information, right? And one of the things that adds, that really gives um adds to that certain T is even the R LDS church that you know, this idea that the R LDS church was built on the idea that Joseph wasn’t a polygamist, but the evidence was so compelling that even they had to acknowledge. So that’s really kind of one of the main things now. And so I want to talk about that time because you probably, maybe that’s when you first reached out to me is when I did the episode on the, my study of the history of the R LDS church and the liberalization and them changing the stance. So I want to talk because you guys were members of the R LDS church and went through that time period. So maybe you can talk a little bit about what was happening and what were the many issues going on and you, you know, I, I read Richard Howard’s paper and first of all, I want to clarify that the R LDS church’s stance is not that Joseph was a polygamist. The R LDS Church’s stance now is to not take a stand on it, which I think is quite tragic because, and apparently Richard Howard’s paper was supposed to be this like game changer where the evidence was so compelling. I read it and it was so not compelling at all. And so studying the history and how much they wanted to liberalize and wanted to separate themselves from Joseph made way more sense to me. So they were looking for an excuse, any excuse to do that. So I’m sorry, I kind of told the story a little bit for you, but I want to hear it from your perspective being members of the church.

[51:08] Cheryl Clute: Well, I, I was raised Michelle knowing that Joseph Smith was never a polygamist because my ancestors were in Nauvoo and they witnessed firsthand Joseph never had any other wife, but Emma Smith and there were no other Children and there’s no name by of Joseph anywhere. Now they’ve proven that. So, um Joseph Smith the third, he even went to Utah and so did his brothers, um looking for his family, supposedly looking for

[51:44] Michelle: cousins. He kept talking about, where are my cousins? Yeah.

[51:47] Cheryl Clute: Where, where are they at? You know, and he never found any. And uh, so Joseph Smith, I guess

[51:55] Michelle: they wouldn’t be his cousins. They’d be his half brothers and sisters. He said cousins. But Joseph

[52:00] Cheryl Clute: the third you know, he knew that his father and he stated that his dad wasn’t a polygamist. But if he had have been, it wasn’t gonna, it wouldn’t be right. He stayed. Right. And so anyway, it wasn’t until the liberalism really started coming in. I’m gonna say, in the late fifties, like 1958 somewhere in there, uh, there began to be men in the R LDS church and I was, I was born in 57. And so, and anyway, um they, they kind of kept everything secret about the changes they were doing. And some of the people that worked for the leadership of the church that I knew personally grow, you know, when I, by now by now, I’m grown and um I was 27 when the split happened. But um I had a neighbor and her name was Dorothy Christina. She’s passed on now and she was the first woman I believe in the R LDS church to get excommunicated. And that’s because she had friends of hers that worked for the leadership up in the institutional church headquarters and they were sending her all these documents. And so this was right after, you know, like this was even before the split, you know, and so Dorothy lived across the street from Danny and I, and uh this was after we got married and um she would come over to our house and bring all these papers with her, showing me of all these friends of hers that worked up there at the headquarters, what these leadership were doing in secret. And so so anyway, then uh

[53:56] Michelle: was this throughout the seventies? Isn’t that when that was happening in the seventies? It was in the and they were, and they were having, they were meeting with Methodists like liberal Methodist leaders being instructed by them. Is that, is that, am I understanding that the

[54:11] Cheryl Clute: position papers came out in what 1967?

[54:14] Dan Clute: This is uh yeah, it says the position papers were written in 1967 and 1968 by the Department of Religious Education of the organized church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints. The purpose of the papers was to provide the editors of the new curriculum with a written description of some new beliefs for the church so that the new curriculum could in turn help eradicate former doctrines and align the membership with the ecumenical movement. This is something that the prices wrote here uh is what I’m reading. Uh Dorothy

[54:46] Cheryl Clute: had gotten these papers and also other papers like this rich. They were finally sent to the prices too Richard Price and these two. But Dorothy.

[54:59] Michelle: So what year was? Yeah, what year was she excommunicated? And then I wanna hear the she

[55:03] Cheryl Clute: like she was excommunicated. Oh my goodness. Uh What early eighties, I think even

[55:12] Michelle: in the eighties

[55:15] Cheryl Clute: and she opened up a little uh bookstore just down the road, you know, from us here really a few blocks away anyway. And uh you could go in there and she was printing all this stuff out and giving it to, I mean, just sending it every expose, you know.

[55:33] Michelle: And so she was super concerned by what was happening at church headquarters and trying to expose it. That’s amazing.

[55:40] Cheryl Clute: She was um actually a prerunner to Richard and Pamela on that, you know, she was really putting it out there. And then, and then of course, Pamela and Richard, they, they started and, and uh uh in the, like you said, they in the hierarchy of the church, they began to send all their um a missionary type people to Saint Paul’s School of Theology over in Kansas City to it’s a Methodist College to get indoctrinated. That’s how this stuff started. And so when, by the time uh we were, at the time we were going to Enki R LDS Church, it was the number one tithing paying congregation in the ST 1200 people on the rolls there at that church. And um we were the most conservative congregation and we weren’t going along with it.

[56:39] Dan Clute: You had to, you had to park two or three blocks down the street on prayer service, not evening Wednesday evening

[56:45] Cheryl Clute: seat 45 minutes early if you wanted to see. So

[56:49] Michelle: it was a,

[56:52] Cheryl Clute: it was huge. And so anyway, uh we had Pamela and Richard Price went there and also Larry, Nancy Harker, they were, they’re all deceased now except Pam. They were Pam and Richard’s right hand people there at the bookstore and all that. And, uh, there was lots of appointees, uh, that were conservative seventies like Bob Baker and, and, uh, John Jordan and different ones. I don’t know if, you know, if, you know, I know Whitney knows him but Patrick mckay and Jim mckay, they’re, they’re still good friends of ours and, uh, we went to church there and Todd Henson and a bunch of people. But anyway, so we all, we were all like, no, we’re not going along with any of this.

[57:37] Michelle: So, can you tell me? So I know that there were multiple issues. Can you talk about what some of them were that you started to see coming? So, so it sounds like it wasn’t just coming from church leadership. Part of it was that it was being revealed through this bookstore. And Dorothy, was that her name? Is that what you said?

[57:55] Cheryl Clute: So, and then the prices were doing it out of their home

[58:00] Michelle: at that. Did they start before the split? I thought they started after the split. They

[58:04] Cheryl Clute: were selling stuff out of their home before the split. And then I said, then after Richard retired, he uh bought the bookstore, the restoration bookstore and a group did and, and then they started working out of that. But anyway, all these people that are in congregation, we were like, you know, they’re like, no, we’re not going along with it because, you know, when they voted, especially when they voted women in the priesthood in, we just all decided we weren’t gonna go along with it. And uh so they sent the state.

[58:35] Michelle: That was the, that was the breaking point, right? The women in the priesthood was the breaking point. And I want you to kind of tell me some of the other things that, that you had sensed that there was concern about. Was it the like, how big of a concern was the change on the change stance on Joseph’s polygamy? And what other things were

[58:54] Cheryl Clute: there that never came, that wasn’t ever mentioned, anything was ever mentioned at that time. See that Dick Howard did all that

[59:03] Dan Clute: was that the Isaac Sheen thing, Isaac Sheen?

[59:07] Michelle: Well, he, he quotes Isaac Sheen in that paper which is just weak if

[59:12] Dan Clute: that was his main argument. OK. This is called uh fundamental differences. You’ve

[59:17] Cheryl Clute: got it, Michelle,

[59:19] Michelle: I do have this one. He said

[59:23] Dan Clute: to me, oh yeah, he was an apostle in the R LDS church. I think he spent time out in Utah. And if I remember reading recently, he, he spent three years, three years studying, you know, the differences and the positions of both churches. And uh and this copyrights on this book is 1960 Harold Publishing House. 1960 is a copyright and he has a little section in here on Isaac Sheen statements. OK, so this is from 1960 and if you want me to, I can read a little bit. What, what he says about the, is that their main argument, Isaac Sheen was Jose

[1:00:01] Michelle: whose main argument

[1:00:02] Dan Clute: the coc that

[1:00:04] Cheryl Clute: how

[1:00:06] Dan Clute: was

[1:00:06] Michelle: he includes? He has, he has a couple, a couple of different sources. He quotes Isaac Sheen from that very first publication of The True Herald, the Saints Harold, which, which it’s so clear to me if you study anything, all he was doing was rehashing a paper he had written before when he didn’t understand as much that seems so obvious to me. Then he quotes um William Marks who Briggs quote as William Marks clarifying what he meant, right? That he was not confused by Joseph Smith. He that Joseph Smith was not deceived by the doctrine. He was deceived by the by the elders, right? And then he has, he has a few other um quotes that he uses but really in isolation and without any context and without any other possibilities like he, he just basically makes the point that because he, because Joseph was teaching eternal marriage, which was true. II I believe, you know, he said he had a revelation on that and that Hiram had a wife in heaven and a wife on the earth that, that somehow polygamy grew out of that. So even Dick Howard doesn’t acknowledge that Joseph was doing anything like Brigham, anything at all. But he just kind of opens the door that maybe this is where it came from anyway and, and, and it’s just not, well, I, I don’t think it’s good scholarship at all and to have that be this declaration that Joseph was a polygamist that the LDS use anyway. That was a sidetrack. But I think it’s, I think it’s just very, very shallow understanding the paper itself and how weak the paper is and, and, you know, and Dick Howard’s desire to really throw Brit Joseph under the bus, like there was an actual desire and a and a glint in their eye about that’s, that was my impression.

[1:01:53] Dan Clute: I mean, just to, to prove, I guess that this wasn’t the position of the R LDS church. Like I said, this was a copyright of this book. Fundamental Differences is 1960. I don’t know when uh Dick Howard did his little research, but uh this is from Apostle in the in the organization. And uh he talks and also it’s in the early history of the organization by Edmund Briggs. While he was out doing missionary work, he got wind of this article that Isaac Sheen had put in, in that, that paper uh early there. And so there’s some information in his book with uh early history of the organization also about when he heard about Isaac Sheen. Uh but it uh church in Utah, missionaries also referred to a statement made by Isaac Sheen in the first edition of the True Latter Day Saints Herald published in January 1860 Isaac Sheen was editor of the Herald at the time. They quote a very brief portion of one article in an effort to prove that the organized church admitted in its official publication that Joseph Smith Junior was definitely connected with polygamy and the revelation concerning it. And considering this charge, the following factors must be known. Isaac. She number one, Isaac Sheen public published two articles in this edition of the Herald. The first of these was entitled Polygamy. Contrary to the Revelations of God. The article is a strong denunciation of polygamy in it. Mr Sheen implicated Joseph with polygamy by saying he abhorred and repented of this iniquity before his death. The organized church does not accept Isaac Sheen Sheen as an unimpeachable authority on the events about which he wrote his testimony about Joseph and polygamy was not based on firsthand knowledge but on rumor. And that’s what Edmund Briggs said. He must have believed the lies that was being spoken about Joseph, I Isaac Sheen when he wrote this. OK.

[1:04:00] Michelle: And Isaac, she never said it again. It was, it was, it was a prewritten article published just in that first episode. He like, like he realized, you know, he, he was called to repentance. It seems to me and he never again made that he was like realized he was wrong. I think I,

[1:04:17] Dan Clute: I, yeah, I think if I remember just recently, he and Joseph the third got together and, and work, work this thing out. Um OK. Uh And then he goes on to point out this isn’t very good for the Utah church to use to in favor of polygamy. If the church in Utah missionaries wish to accept, accept Isaac Sheen as a valid witness. His testimony is much more damning to their cause than to, to of the organized church. In his second article entitled the Mormons again, he stated Joseph Smith repented of his connection with this doctrine and said that it was of the devil. So you want to use Isaac Sheen. OK, Joseph, which we don’t believe he repented of it. But if you want to use uh use Isaac Sheen. He said, Joseph Smith repented of this connection with this doctrine and said it was of the devil. He caused the revelations on the subject to be burned. And when he voluntarily came to Nauvoo and resigned himself into the arms of his enemies, he said that he was going to Carthage to die at that time. He also said that that if it had not been for that accursed spiritual wife doctrine, he would not have come to that. So what does this have to say for polygamy if you want to use Sheen is a, a witness uh in favor of Joseph being a polygamist, but her organization never uh believed what Isaac Sheen. And he, I think he got straightened out on that too. But uh what’s, what’s uh oh, if I can find it quick enough. Uh where? Let’s see.

[1:05:58] Cheryl Clute: Oh, I told you, he had a lot to say Michelle.

[1:06:02] Dan Clute: I know,

[1:06:03] Michelle: I thought Cheryl and I would do most of the talking, but Cheryl told me no,

[1:06:07] Cheryl Clute: let me go back to, back to any kill. OK. So any kill was the most conservative R LDS congregation. And like I mentioned those brothers names, there was a thing called the Restoration Festivals and it was not sponsored by the uh hierarchy to, to do it, you know, but this was outside of the church stuff and they would rent an auditorium at a high school and they even had it one time at a college and they would have different guest speakers come and speak um at these restoration festivals like Patrick mckay sid do warn um oh boy, a whole bunch of different ones. But anyway, so they all got because they were preaching the gospel and they were really, you know, preaching like, I mean, their spirit was there at these meetings. Um These men all got silenced for preaching the gospel. And so, um in fact, Patrick mckay’s brother James mckay, his father in law passed away in Nebraska and he had gone out of town or, or either that or his father in law was sick. I forget. But anyway, it was in Nebraska and Jim told us I was out of town. I didn’t even go to the restoration festival that weekend. He got called in and got silenced and he was told by the state president, well, if you would have been here, you would have reached. So, we’re, 00, my

[1:07:43] Michelle: goodness.

[1:07:44] Cheryl Clute: So, yeah. But, you know, uh, what happened was, is, is the prices, all the different ones that were getting called in and getting silence and Danny and my dad, they both were silent too. But anyway, um

[1:07:59] Michelle: so there was a forced liberalization happening and those who were on things like I, I was looking at the different, like one of them, I know that some of the big big um principles I guess was going away from um succession like lineage succession in the presidency was one of them, I believe

[1:08:19] Cheryl Clute: W Wallace B. Smith, the last Smith that was in there. He had three daughters. I went to school with him and there was no, there was no man for him to pass it on to. But there really was because he had cousins that were Smith that were descendant of Joseph that, you know, maybe could have done it. But that’s when they called in Grant mcmurray instead. And they broke the, this was after, you know, after we’d already gone.

[1:08:46] Michelle: Yeah. So that was one of the things they were trying to go away from that. Then another one was, I think the big one was women’s ordination, which was tricky because was that because he had three daughters? Was it like they, you know, like that was one that was the really biggest issue. Right?

[1:09:01] Cheryl Clute: There were women in that group. I’m, I’m talking, that were older women than me at the time I was 27 that they wanted priesthood. They wanted, they were very highly educated, you know, and that some of their husbands were apostles or appointees and they really, you know, thought they, they had a, you know, I deserve attitude to be called a high priest or an apostle or whatever. And I believe that’s what started that on going as these women that really, they lusted, they lusted after it, you know.

[1:09:40] Michelle: Well, and it’s a tricky one because we’ve had our movements as well. And it’s, you know, it’s hard because in my opinion, we don’t have enough information about men and women and their eternal destiny. So that’s a tricky one. But that was another one that they were kind of just, and, and then, and then anyone who was speaking on and then another one was separating from Joseph Smith and the from the book of Mormon, right? And becoming ecumenical means. We just want to be one of the other Christian churches. So we are going away from everything about our founding and just kind of having that be like, like for us right now, polygamy is kind of the dirty little secret that we don’t want to talk about for it became with the R LDS. They were trying to make Joseph Smith and the book of Mormon, the just the dirty little embarrassing secret is the impression I have. And so what I’m hearing from you is people who were speaking out about no, the book of Mormon is the word of God or trying to keep the restoration alive. They were being forcibly silenced within the church is that those that

[1:10:35] Cheryl Clute: wanted to hold fast to the teachings of the restoration. They were, they wanted him out of there so they could move forward. But I’ll tell you what happened at any kill. So one night our state president came in, we had was on a, we had a big meeting and the place was packed, there was standing room only every room was filled that, you know, they had intercom system and stuff and it was packed and uh our state President Oc Henson, he’s passed on now he came and um, Richard, you know, he started telling us that we were gonna do it whether basically, whether we liked it or not and get on

[1:11:15] Michelle: board, get with the program. That was the message.

[1:11:18] Cheryl Clute: And Yep and Richard Price got up and spoke against it and uh David Price got up and spoke against it. And there were several other people I can’t remember, but there’s a bunch of them that got up and basically Oc Henson just looked at everybody and said, if you don’t like it, you can leave and he was just beside him, you know, he didn’t know how to handle this situation at all. And so then we left that night and I told Danny, I said, you wait, they’re gonna have the Apostle in charge here next week, Bill Higden. So the next week, sure enough, they called another special meeting and here was Apostle Higden and he basically said the same type of stuff. And when he said similar, I forget the wording. But basically, it was the same thing. If you don’t like it, you can leave. Everybody got up and walked out and left him standing there and I, I turned around to look at his face and in an apostle and his mouth was like, we all got up and walked out and I imagine there was probably 700 people there that night. We all got up and walked out and left him just standing up on the rostrum

[1:12:33] Michelle: was, was this the biggest congregation in the R LDS church at

[1:12:38] Cheryl Clute: that time. It was

[1:12:40] Michelle: so the biggest congregation and the

[1:12:43] Cheryl Clute: top 1200 people on the rolls. Number one tithing, paying filing congregation in all of center state. So anyway, that’s, that’s how all these restoration branches started was. So

[1:12:59] Michelle: that’s the night the split happened. That’s, that’s when the split happened is when he said, if you don’t like it, there’s the door and you were like, ok, the door and the whole

[1:13:10] Cheryl Clute: what they started. Yes, Michelle. But what they started doing at other congregations that were conservative like ours, like the Buckner R LDS Church, they locked the doors on them. They, they changed, they wouldn’t let the people come in. Uh, it was, it was absolutely, it was crazy. They wouldn’t let him come in

[1:13:30] Michelle: really a hostile takeover of the R LDS church

[1:13:33] Cheryl Clute: did all sorts of stuff. Uh, I mean, you would not believe there was a big write up about that. And, uh, we had a, we had a women in the priesthood, women against women in the priesthood march and there was about 200 of us. I was one of them, we held signs marching around the R LDS Auditorium all the way around for like two hours women in the priesthood. No. And so anyway,

[1:13:59] Michelle: and I wanna, I just wanna clarify for anyone who feels kind of, um, you know, because that was, I want to clarify, that was 40 years ago, a full 40 years ago. And so anyone that’s feeling like, like it’s time now or whatever it is, like, remember back to the eighties, that was a really aggressive move that the R LDS church made to fully, um, ordain women in the, in the 19 eighties that, you know, that was a long time ago. So that was a, it was a violent, they, like what they were doing was really, like, violent changes, really aggressive and dramatic.

[1:14:33] Cheryl Clute: They were saying they were not involved in this, but they were, they were denying that they were members of the National World Council of Churches. But my friend Dorothy Christina had all the paperworks that proved it at

[1:14:47] Michelle: the time. So that was another problem is that they were lying to you that you knew that they weren’t being honest with the ties that they had. So the

[1:14:55] Cheryl Clute: first, the first group that let me talk about, honey, the first group that um started the first restoration branch. It was, and here’s what the restoration branches are. They are like what the reorganization did. They didn’t have a, a prophet or apostles or anything. That’s what the restoration branches are. We don’t have that. And so anyway, um so the first restoration branch was um Independence Branch. And, uh that’s where the Richard Price and Pamela and the Harle and the mckays and the Perry and a whole bunch of other people. They all went there and then,

[1:15:41] Michelle: and you as well, is that where you were

[1:15:43] Cheryl Clute: there? But it wasn’t, it was later, we helped start the branch. Uh, and it was called Glendale Restoration Branch because when we all walked out of the church building, we were like, ok, what are we gonna do? And so the priest had met and they said, well, we’re gonna start, you know, we’re gonna get a gymnasium or go rent a building or something and we’re just gonna start having church there next week, like we’re still having it and that’s what we did. And so we just went from this building to that building, but we still kept the gospel. And that’s the thing that in our, in the, in the R DS church, this is the way we restorations believe. We still hold fast to the gospel of Jesus Christ in the book of Mormon, the inspired version and the doctrine of covenants. Whereas we left the building, they got the building, but we got, that’s what, that’s what we, you know, that’s the way we look at it. And uh but you know, but, but

[1:16:42] Michelle: so tell me, oh, did I interrupt you for you saying something else? Oh, no, go ahead. Go ahead. So what, what um did any apostles? Um I, I was gonna use the word apostatized. That’s not I, I think the, the R LDS church apostatized. Did any of the apostles come with the restoration branches? What was the highest one of the highest callings? Because they were all in the liberal. Yeah, because my understanding is the new leadership that became more liberal, started calling super liberal apostles. So that’s how they did this hostile takeover.

[1:17:17] Cheryl Clute: The old good time, the good, the good apostles that really preached the gospel. They got rid of them all and they got rid of them all before this major stuff started happening. How

[1:17:30] Michelle: did they get rid of apostles and ours? They have to die I mean, I mean, that’s probably

[1:17:35] Cheryl Clute: they, they put them out to pasture, they call it and being a patriarch. And so they

[1:17:41] Michelle: can be released from being an apostle in your church, your church can release apostles and make them a patriarch instead. Ok? We can’t do that.

[1:17:51] Dan Clute: The man I was telling you about was kissed by an angel when he was a little boy and told about, he preach the gospel of many lands. Uh He was still young enough that he had, they call him via a patriarch. He’s only in his six, early sixties. And he, and he said, well, there’s no way to go up when you’re an apostle and that’s a patriarch. But see, and, and I’m not sure what this was concerning, but someone said one time, I don’t know if it was a conference or what, but it was at the auditorium and Arthur Oakman was coming out and he looked like he was just, something was disturbing him and I wish I could find out uh I didn’t know what it was but someone asked him, you know, are you OK, brother Oakman or, or however they said it and he said, my generation just lost its opportunity to build Zion. I’m not sure what he, what, what went on to bring that about. I’m not sure. I don’t wanna try to guess at it, but he was concerned and he was a, he really, he was a powerful preacher. Uh he had, he saw the, the and experience the creation, he saw the, the crucifixion and he said as, as good as some of these, uh what do they call them when the, the passion plays and actors? And as good as a very good job as they can do is nothing to compare to what’s can be revealed by the spirit. And he actually preached a sermon called the Meaning of the crucifixion. Let me tell you that is one powerful sermon.

[1:19:23] Michelle: Oh, I’m ok. I’m gonna link that below because that’s amazing.

[1:19:28] Dan Clute: Yeah, but he did the endowment series and that’s where he told how, when he was a kid, they were poor. He grew up in England and they were poor. He said, he said, uh that many times his mother would send him to the, to the butcher shop with uh to get two pump, two pennies worth of bones and rin. But to make supper, he said he had to put cardboard in the bottom of his shoes to keep his feet from touching the ground, the pants that he wore, uh her mother had repaired them so many times that the only thing left of the original pants was a shape. He said 84. Uh and I mean, he described how poor they were. He said we had a rich uncle. I had to skim over the fence like the rest of the boys to get an apple. Do you think he would help us. And he said we lived on Garfield Road. It must have been named after President Garfield who was assassinated because Garfield Road was certainly assassinated. You know about how poor they were. His father was a journey, I’m trying to make this real quick. His father was a journeyman plumber. He said, I’m educated. No, he’s a journeyman plumber. He said, me and my sister and my mother would stand out at, at the by the sidewalk there and look down to see when father would come around the corner. We could tell by the way, walked if he had money in his pocket and, and sometimes, you know, so they could tell by the way his walk, his mother would walk in the house with her head down, you know, and, and um anyway, 111 day when they’re standing out there waiting for father to come around the corner. Instead of father, this man comes around the corner and he begins to sing, begone, un belief. My savior is near and for my relief shall shortly appear though sin. Let me wrestle. Uh He will perform with Christ in the vessel. I smile at the storm. He said we could hear every word he was singing uh though d be my way, he’s my guide. Uh And I can’t remember the whole word that, that’s something he will provide. And he stopped right in front of him, his sister and mother was out there and he was out there. He stops in front of him. He said, sister, can you uh spare an old man a crust of bread? And remember she, she had two pieces of bread in the house and she went, he said, we had a saying amongst us, it was the poor that helped the poor. She said, yeah, wait, just wait a minute. She went in at two pieces of bread and brought one of them out and gave him a penny. I think it was to get some tea. You know, they were English, English people. And he said, sister, because of the thing you’ve done today by sacrificing God has set his hand to bless your house and you will never want in basket or in store. And it was one of them things where they turn around and he’s gone. Next thing you know, here comes her father around the corner and they could tell by the way he walked, he had money in his pocket. He said he had no clue what just happened. And I think they were trying to figure it out too. But he, he told his wife, Ada, I’ve just landed a big contract and we will never want in basket or in store. That was an angel that was an angel. And Ar Arthur said from that time on that was our guardian angel. And while he was still there, he reached down and, and kissed Arthur, I think on the cheek and basically said, this young lad will grow up to manhood. He will preach the gospel in many lands and his ministry will be in part to his own people. And also his sister was there and he spoke things about his sister. This was an angel. He was

[1:23:02] Michelle: really, it’s an Elijah story. It’s beautiful. So this was an apostle of the R LDS church who did speak with power and this new regime put him out to pasture. And anybody else, anybody else who actually believed in the restoration instead of kind of instead of the Methodist view of Joseph Smith was put out to pasture. Then this hostile takeover happened. So they didn’t win the argument. And at this point, it wasn’t even Joseph’s polygamy. That wasn’t, that was a question you said because yeah, I think that Dick Howard’s paper was published in 83 but it wouldn’t have been well known yet because it was just in a

[1:23:46] Cheryl Clute: historical and everything was leading up to the big split if I can. It wasn’t never mentioned that that about was never mentioned some

[1:23:55] Dan Clute: of these things I read. So

[1:23:56] Michelle: that was just an additional betrayal that happened after you were like the R LDS church is saying what, OK,

[1:24:03] Dan Clute: from the position papers. And that’s what the church leadership was working on. Writing. Basically the change that

[1:24:09] Cheryl Clute: this is one of the, this is what helped Richard Price get silenced.

[1:24:15] Michelle: I’ll just read

[1:24:15] Dan Clute: a couple of things and price has put this out. But the position papers is in, in this book and on the front of it, it says this is one of the things on page 57. The position papers. Nor can we affirm today that this is the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth with which the Lord is well pleased DNC 15, we affirm that no single organization, organized institution or church on earth is the perfect embodiment of God’s will and purpose. So we no longer believe in a only true and living church, even though the doctrine covenants mentions it twice. And so does the book of Mormon uh

[1:24:57] Cheryl Clute: hierarchy believed that way. But we did. So these are

[1:25:00] Dan Clute: some of the changes that were happening. But even the type of Chris Christology that the Book of Mormon displays raises questions for the modern man since it seems to reflect 1/19 century Messianic view of Jesus as a supernatural being. So they’re even having problems with the book of Mormon,

[1:25:20] Michelle: right? That that’s the whole thing. They, they really just, they said Joseph Smith was not a prophet. It’s what all of the ex Mormons believe, right? Joseph was never a prophet. They don’t give a plausible way that he came up with the book of Mormon. They’d use the same, you know, and he was never a prophet. He was a polygamist, he did all of these awful things. So they took the worst perspective of Joseph Smith that all of the anti Mormons, the Methodists and, you know, had, and they incorporated that into the highest councils of the church, got rid of anybody who thought differently. They didn’t win the argument. They just took their biases and gained control. That’s how it looks to me from what you’re saying. And so this is kind of like, oh,

[1:26:00] Dan Clute: go ahead. I just thought I just come to my mind there, there was a 70 in our church. His name is Tommy Thomas. He grew up in Kirtland. He went to the church in, in those days in the Kirtland Temple is where they had church. And so so he knew a lot about Kirtland and what was going on. He said a lot of the old time R LDS missionaries like to finish out their days at the Kirtland Temple because they could keep, you know, take people on tours and share the gospel with them and, and, and on the process of taking them on tours of the Kirtland temple. And he said there was a man, he called him brother Stone, he was a missionary. They had been a missionary and he was there and, and doing that, taking people on tours and doing whatever other church work he would do. And he said one time after a service, it could have been a prayer meeting service uh or some sort of service. They had, he was locking the doors of the KTM temple and a man comes walking down the road or sidewalk, whatever it was towards him in a very nice, nice looking man, very nice suit. And um I should have told you the story before this Brother Stone. There was a lady uh I think she was a church member, investigated. He might have been a church member and she had a bad spirit, an evil spirit and he cast the spirit out of her. And once he did, it was a complete change, she became a really great asset to the congregation there at the Kirtland Temple. When they meet the church there, all kinds of things. OK. II, I should have shared that first. Anyway, he’s locking up the doors after a service one evening at the temple and a man’s walking down the road very nice, well dressed like in a suit and whatever. And he walks up to brother Stone and he says, you know who I am, don’t you? Featherstone said, yes, you’re Lucifer. And he said yes. And, and he said, I’m leaving this place, Minnie Kirkland. But, but do not re I’m going to independence to set up my headquarters, don’t rejoice. I’m gonna leave enough of my imps or demons here at Kirtland. But he said, I’m going to independence and that’s why I’m gonna set up my headquarters and that would have probably been maybe in the, I’m not exactly sure what Tommy’s passed away now. So I don’t know the exact date of that, but it could have been fifties, maybe sixties. I’m not sure when that happened. But again, this stuff, it sounds like fifties, sixties, this liberalism stuff started and they started working towards. So we, we think he did set up his headquarters

[1:28:35] Cheryl Clute: there, you know, three people, Michelle that Arthur Oakman, um, Richard Ensley and another guy that was a 70 I can’t think of his name, but they all, they all three said they saw Satan’s in the auditorium, they saw his uh office in the auditorium, like in a vision, they saw him in

[1:29:04] Dan Clute: there. See my question would be, why not set up your headquarters in Rome? Why not set up your headquarters in Utah? Why not? It’s

[1:29:14] Michelle: probably, it’s probably everywhere but I hear what you’re saying. Yeah,

[1:29:19] Dan Clute: the, the Baptist convention is those, why, why here in Little Independence insignificant? Is it the, why, why the man himself would want to set up his headquarters? Well, we know why and we see the results of it now.

[1:29:34] Michelle: It is, it is astonishing how destructive the R LDS church’s change has been because I think that has embedded the certitude of Joseph’s polygamy more than anything else could have because its idea that like we, we don’t understand that it wasn’t against their interest. It was exactly what they wanted to do. It wasn’t the evidence that changed their perspective. It was this new leadership that was anti Joseph that changed their perspective out of motivated motivation rather than evidence, right? And so, and so all of the people who still held the book of Mormon as the word of God left, it sounds or were kicked out and were silenced, right? And so, OK, so then I, oh go ahead. Here’s

[1:30:28] Cheryl Clute: the thing, Michelle. I don’t believe the hierarchy. I think Satan had him so deceived that he thought everybody would go along with it. Yeah. And guess what, back when I was a kid growing up, it was kind of like in Utah instead of a ward, we call them congregations. There was congregations everywhere in this town. You couldn’t go down one road without, you know, just here and there like Utah CN

[1:31:01] Michelle: A, you were like Utah County. Yeah. Yeah.

[1:31:03] Cheryl Clute: R LDS congregation. Not like that no more because what happened, the main tithing payers all left. And so they had to start selling off because, you know, when you have a congregation, you maybe have 10 or 15 people in there or 2030 then they’re older and they start dying off, nobody’s there. So they had to start selling off all these congregations and they would take like three congregations and put them in one building and then sell the buildings. And so that’s what they’ve been doing for a long time. So now just in the last year, I mean, they’ve been selling them gradually. And in fact, some of the restoration branch, people have bought the R LDS buildings, you know? Ok. And so, um yeah, like Spring Branch became New Jerusalem Restoration branch. That was one of the first buildings they sold and then they sold uh another, another branch, uh called, it was over on Allen Road. They sold it to a restoration branch. It’s just, I mean, they’re all over these restoration branches have bought these buildings from the community Christ. So in the last year I know they’ve sold probably at least 55 more buildings here in Independence. They’re just selling like crazy because they’re bankrupt. They’re, they’re literally, I think they’re going bankrupt if you can see the grounds of the auditorium and the up there. Uh, it’s, it’s a nightmare. I mean, they don’t, they’re not keeping up with their, their, their, the auditorium needs to be like water pressure

[1:32:48] Dan Clute: washer work.

[1:32:49] Cheryl Clute: It’s so dirty. It’s, it’s, it’s embarrassing. I have people come out here to visit and they want some of my Utah friends come out and visit, they wanna go up there. They want to see the, the auditorium when you can’t go in there. Now, it used to be open if anybody can go in and they’d give you a tour, they don’t do that no more. It used to be able to go into the stone church, just walk in. They give you a tour. Not that no more because they can’t afford to pay people to

[1:33:16] Michelle: do it. Ok. We had a little bit of technical if issues. We wanted to have the sound good. So we came back in. So you were telling me about the, um, the, basically the R LDS church kind of the community of Christ kind of is imploding now, or at least dying off because they did this. So they’re selling buildings. They’re not doing the upkeep and having tour guides. I guess they can’t even get people to like the LDS church doesn’t pay its tour guides. It’s all missionaries and people doing service. But so, um anyway, and then you just mentioned something fascinating. That’s another piece of evidence of the state of the community of Christ. So tell me that again, Dan, if you will.

[1:33:58] Dan Clute: Well, I, I guess kind of a way rumor has it, but it, what we’ve heard is that the LDS church has replaced the roof, some foundation work, maybe heating and cooling uh on the Kirtland Temple. And they also have tour guides, LDS, tour guides, some in the Kirtland Temple. And uh this, it, it, it appears that and this is rumored, we’ll have time will tell uh that maybe the LDS church is going to has purchased or going to purchase the uh Kirtland temple.

[1:34:33] Michelle: So the community of Christ is selling the Kirtland Temple, possibly according to rumors, possibly.

[1:34:38] Dan Clute: Well, like I said, time will tell, but it just seems strange that the LDS Church has invested that kind of money in the Kirkland Temple and tour guides from what we hear from a friend of ours that they went to Kirtland a few years back and it was a LDS, a guide that took them on their tour and,

[1:34:54] Michelle: and, and it’s the community of Christ that owns the Kirtland Temple. And then the other thing you talked about was the printer’s manuscript. That was amazing.

[1:35:04] Dan Clute: Yeah. They sold the printer’s manuscript for 30. I think it was

[1:35:07] Cheryl Clute: 32 million,

[1:35:09] Dan Clute: 2 million, something like that. And we was on a tour out east with some LDS funds and we was watching it was on the television or something about the sale of that. And uh in the discussion, it was mentioned, the, the their retirement account was mentioned a few times and our LDS friend says, are they selling this to basically put it in the retirement accounts? Because they keep mentioning that we

[1:35:34] Michelle: didn’t know. So that’s why Cheryl mentioned that about the old

[1:35:38] Cheryl Clute: buildings. That’s what the president of the community of Christ said is he kept mentioning his retirement accounts and uh we have to secure our retirement accounts and our LDS friends, they caught on to that right away and they’re like,

[1:35:55] Michelle: really what’s going on. OK. So this is, it is,

[1:35:59] Dan Clute: it is a fact there’s, they’ve sold a lot of R les con church buildings and land, land, farm land. And even we’ve even heard in Iowa, different places that church buildings are being sold

[1:36:12] Cheryl Clute: them.

[1:36:13] Michelle: OK. Well, with what with the background you guys gave about all of the tithe payers, uh the majority of the tithe payers leaving the church in that split helps give so much more insight because a lot of us remember the church, the LDS church buying the, the printer’s manuscript and these other things that OK, so OK, thank you for filling that other church

[1:36:35] Dan Clute: properties also like up in Nauvoo, I

[1:36:38] Cheryl Clute: think, I don’t know about that

[1:36:42] Michelle: in any case there. This

[1:36:43] Dan Clute: is just kind of a little deal. Um You know, the temple lot case, uh the early church took the temple lot church and the LDS church was involved. There was witnesses that come to that uh lost Temple Lot suit. And basically the uh the only reason the R LDS church lost was a technicality because they, I think even the Kirtland lawsuit, they won the Kirtland lawsuit and basically kind of shown that they were closer to the original church than the D and its doctrines and teachings and things like that, didn’t they? Maybe

[1:37:23] Michelle: I’m remembering wrong but didn’t they initially win? And then on appeal, it was overturned on a technicality. It the, the LDS church didn’t ever or the temple lot didn’t ever win. It was that I think that’s what happened. They did initially win the R LDS church and then on appeal, it

[1:37:41] Dan Clute: was, I think the judge was kind of overruled by like a higher court and it was on a technicality and it was called Latches, which is kind of basically squatter’s rights. The temple lot, if they would have, the R LDS would have taken that suit maybe some years earlier, they would have got the temple lot. Ok. But because they hadn’t, it was kind of a, they called it latches. The Temple lot church had been there long enough that they awarded, you know, the the temple lot to them. And I personally believe that was the Lord’s will because the temple lot church is is preserving that temple lot. Uh the, the R

[1:38:21] Michelle: L because the R LDS would be selling it off right now. Probably the R

[1:38:25] Dan Clute: LDS church, the community of Christ, maybe R LDS that turned into the community of Christ, they would have built their temple on the temple lot. And it shouldn’t be if, if uh if

[1:38:37] Michelle: uh that’s a cool insight. So the

[1:38:39] Dan Clute: Lord is in in fact, the temple lot Apostle agreed with that, that they are caretakers for that temple lot because the LDS church might build a temple there also. And in fact, the temple lot church, I don’t know the year, the timing of it. They years and years ago, they attempted, they were gonna build a temple on that temple lot, they had a hole dug for the foundation, whatever. And I don’t know if they ran out of money or what happened. But the city made them fill the hole back in. So it wasn’t torn. It wasn’t time even, they couldn’t build a temple on it. It wasn’t time. So I, I really believe that the temple lot church, the Lord is using them to hold that uh temple lot there or there would be temples built on it uh already. And I’m

[1:39:21] Michelle: so glad you, I’m so glad you shared

[1:39:25] Dan Clute: with the uh LDS church in Utah. They’ve gone around and bought a lot of the historical sites and maintained them and take care of them, mill, you know, they take care of them and preserve them. And I really believe the Lords use them to do those kind of things, you know, to, to preserve the historical sites because sorry to say, but the, the ch the community of Christchurch, they pre I’ll just put it nice. They probably wouldn’t preserve them as well. You know why they’re being taken care of now. So I just think everything’s in the Lord’s hands. It’s, it’s his work. You know, we’re told there’s a lot of things going on in the world. We don’t. But, and the Lord says, the righteous need not fear. So we just need to serve the Lord and do the best we can. That’s what we got a

[1:40:11] Cheryl Clute: testimony to tell you. I, I can’t remember if I shared this with you at Ann’s house or not. But um my two great aunts that used to go to stone church prayer meeting every Sunday afternoon at three o’clock. My aunt ya worked for the government. She knew how to do shorthand. And so she’d take her pad and her pen and she’d do what if there was a prophecy or anything given she would write it down in shorthand. Take it home, write it out in longhand. Give it to my Aunt Maudie who would take a sheet of carbon paper and two pieces of typing paper and, and keep, you know, type it out and give one to her and, and went and keep one. And so this one Sunday, this elder got up and this was in the 19 forties and he spoke under the spirit and he said the day would come that the saints in the LDS church would come to a knowledge of the truth. You know what, what, you know what Michelle, I think that’s happening right now. They’re coming. They will come to a knowledge of the truth by the thousands. Well, they heard and I’m gonna tell you just what I’m seeing happening right now that the LDS people are coming to a knowledge of the truth and, and I’m not, I’m not boasting. So don’t take it this way, but God is using you and Jeremy Hoop and Whitney Horning and a whole bunch of other good saints that we’ve met. Rob Fathering

[1:41:42] Michelle: Ham. I have to add him. Oh, yeah. I

[1:41:44] Cheryl Clute: don’t know him. I’ve just mentioned the ones I know personally but, but they, they’re doing a work. The Lord has appointed them to do this. I know this because, you know, you, one of the things that you asked me, you know, to maybe talk on is how I would, why, why I started this work.

[1:42:04] Michelle: I wanted you to talk about how you got

[1:42:05] Cheryl Clute: involved. Well, I got my patriarchal blessing in 1980 I was 20 years old. Um No, wait 20 no, wait a minute, I take that back, Michelle. Yeah, it was 1979. I got my blessing and I was 722. And um anyway, um I was told in my patriarchal blessing and I went to a patriarch who did not know me because I, I know a lot of patriarchs and my family group, you know, have all these friends and I didn’t want any of them because I wanted to know if it was really from God. So I go to this patriarch. He didn’t know me at all and um just talked to me, gave me scriptures to read and stuff said come back in two weeks. So I did, went back and as soon as he laid hands on my head and turned on his recorder and started praying over me. It was like a water faucet came on and I could, I don’t remember anything. He said the whole time because I was so the spirit was so strong I was crying. And when I got my blessing, you know, he had it typed up and they sent it to me in the mail about three weeks later. And when I read it, uh, I mean, I knew every single thing in that blessing was true because this guy did not know me. And, uh, one of the things that he said, he said you are greatly loved of your heavenly father. and he has a work for you to do and in time it will be unfolded into you with increasing depth. And he said, he told me that I should study the three standard books and other good books as well that I might qualify myself to serve even to teach others the truth that I will learn. And as you see the doors of opportunity opening in the hand of God beckoning fear not to pass through and enter into that field of service awaiting you. And I’ve had lots of experiences with, with LDS people. Um I mean about this polygamy issue, I mean, it’s, it’s amazing. Uh I don’t know if he would want me to, to use his name, but I think I told you already who it was. But uh we went on a tour with uh uh some guys, we were, we were the only R LDS on the bus. OK. I’ll say that we were the only R LDS on the bus. And so, um I had met this young man and his family at a book of Mormon conference in Nauvoo. And um we became really good friends and he asked me before they left to go home if I would send him some materials about the differences in the church. So I said, I, I would, so uh we, we came, you know, we became really good friends with them. And uh so we, he wanted to know if we wanted to go on this tour that him and another friend of ours was doing Book of Mormon tour thing with also church historical sites in it out in New York and Ohio and all this and that. And I’m like, I don’t know, I know this is gonna be 55 people on the bus and we’re going to be the only R LDS on the bus. And he’s like, oh, you’ll be all right, you know, you’ll be ok. So we go and on the, on this tour, we had all these people coming up to us, privately wanting to talk to us because they never met any R LDS people. And so we became really good friends with a bunch of these people. But the experience that me and, and this young man had when we were and I didn’t know this. He asked me to send the books and uh the differences between our church and the LDS church. And so when I got back home, I went down to the price publishing bookstore, restoration bookstore. And I bought six books. I had them in a sack and I was getting ready to mail. The first two volumes of Joseph Smith thought polygamy. I got ready to put them in the mailer. And, uh, the spirit spoke to my mind and said, not yet, don’t send those. And I said, ok, so I put two other ones in and melt them. And I said, now when you get done reading these, let me know and I’ll send you some more. So a few months went by and I, uh, got an email from him and he said, I’m ready for some more books. I said, ok, I’ll send you some more. So I got the sack out. Put Joseph Smith thought polygamy back in the mailer again to mail it. And the spirit spoke to me again and said, not yet. I’m like, ok, so I took them out and put the other two and mailed them. So now it’s a couple of months later and he, uh, he says I’m done with those. And, uh, I said, so I said, oh, you know, I, I read his email, I’m done with those. So it was late at night and I thought I’m just gonna go to bed, you know, I’m not go, I’m just, it was like 11 o’clock our time. Yeah, I know you guys are an hour behind us. I’m going to bed, I’ll answer him in the morning. So I got in bed, turned off my computer. I got in bed and I have a tablet too and I got in bed, said my prayers and I no sooner laid down and the spirit spoke to me and said, you need to write him right now and you need to tell him that you’re sending those books. Joseph Smith thought, look me volumes one and two. And I’m like, really? Do I have to really do this? Like right, right now. Do I gotta do this now? Yes, right now. And so I got my tablet turned it on and I wrote him a real quick note and I said, I just thought I’d let you know, I’m gonna send you these books tomorrow. They’re called Joseph Smith thought polygamy. I’ve tried to send them to other times to you, but the Lord wouldn’t let me do it. So I’m mailing him tomorrow because he’s telling me to send them to you. And so I’m going to bed. Good night, talk to you later. So I go to bed next morning, I get up at 730 turn on my computer and there’s an email from me. I still have all this emails. I’ve saved them all and he’s, he, this is what he says. Cheryl dot dot dot Last night and he had never told me about any of this. He said last night before my wife and I, you know, the kids went to bed, we were talking and he says, I’ve never told you this. But when we were in Navoo, we were staying renting a house that belonged to an anti and, and my wife read a book there about Joseph Smith was a polygamous, a pedophiles and so forth and so on. And it about broke her heart because she really believes Joseph is a prophet. And we’ve been discussing this now for a long time and we didn’t know what to do about it. And so he said, um, so we, we were discussing it and then she had to go to bed. She’s a school teacher. So she had to go to bed. And I got on in my office and I got on my computer and he said, I was looking up everything I could pro and con against and for polygamy, you know, and he said I was on Wikipedia and I was sitting at my desk in my desk chair and he’s like, Lord, I don’t know what to do. I don’t know where to go. I don’t know, I don’t have any idea what to do. And he said, the spirit spoke to his mind and said, check your email one last time. And there you were telling me that my head on Joseph Smith thought polygamy and he says, I thank you very much. So I mailed him the books, he got them and he read that first volume in a matter of days. He called us and we were talking on the phone and this is what he said, I could not put the book down. It was like a John Grissom thriller. And he said, he said, I just, he says, I know it’s all true. He and, and so not, not only that, but you know what he did, he, he went and did his own research, I guess, down in the archives he got in there somehow and he looked up all those references from, you know, that he could from Joseph Smith volume one. He said everything that prices wrote in there is 100% correct all of them. And so now him and his wife are helping to rescue people in polygamy. That’s

[1:50:45] Michelle: beautiful. And just, I have, I won’t mention his name yet, but he has agreed to come on the program. He just was really busy when I reached out to him. So it’ll be, you know, it’ll be several months from when I reached it because he gave an amazing talk and shook things up big time. So that’ll be

[1:51:03] Cheryl Clute: it. I was like you were there. Well, let me tell you what he did.

[1:51:07] Dan Clute: He was, he was an investigative journalist.

[1:51:10] Cheryl Clute: Yeah, he used to work. Yeah. You know, we had him, we had him come out and do a book Mormon conference here in uh July of 2017. And so he’d already been reading these books and everything, you know. And so you know, we opened it up to all faiths here, you know, that believe in the book of Mormon that want to come to our book of Mormon conference, of course. And so I’m sitting on the front row and, and he had, he was given this talk and, you know, the place that we went will hold 500 people. There’s probably about 300 people there that day though. And he finished his talk and his regular presentation on the book Mormon. And then he says, and I, and nobody, I, I had no idea that, that he was gonna do this. He says, I, I have something that I need to say. And he says, and I believe this is the best place to tell you, tell it. I don’t believe Joseph Smith was a polygamist. I don’t believe he either preached, taught or practiced it. And he, and he said, I totally denounce it and, and he got a standing nova and all of us restaurants up and went, yeah. And I’m sitting there on the front row and he, when he was saying it, Michelle, the spirit was so strong on him and he, I could see water in his eyes and he, he looked right down at me because I was sitting right in front of him and I was just screaming, crying, you know, and he looked down at me and he, and he, he kind of nodded and smiled, you know, and then I looked at him and I could finally talk and I said, Ryan, there’s sorry, I, I know

[1:52:51] Michelle: who he is. I’ll just tell everyone right now. Look at the Knee Fight Explorer. It’s, it’s a fun show

[1:52:56] Cheryl Clute: to watch. There’s I said, I said there’s something that I need to say now and he looks at me and he goes, I’m sure there is. And so I, I went up to the mic too and, and I bore the testimony that I just shared about the emails, you know, and, and we’ve never forgotten that we visited them when we were out there, we went up to where they live and for a day and a half and, and uh you know, his wife brought it up, she, she’s never forgot it either. That experience.

[1:53:30] Michelle: So that’s what I feel is so like even when um Dan, you were talking about the temple lot church filling their purpose. And I know that we have like a strang who’s coming to this discussion. And it’s, it’s amazing to me. I just feel so much that like the seeds were planted and spread wide in the Lord’s in the Lord’s wisdom to now be being brought back. And I know, sadly, we don’t have permission to share this experience, but there are people having profound experiences and revelations about my people coming to this knowledge of the truth. I think like, just like you talked about how the r the um community of Christ, the R LDS was just bleeding members and, you know, kind of shutting down like the LDS church has also been bleeding members. And Joseph’s polygamy is the number one issue that takes people out of the church and takes them out of faith and belief. And it’s so, um and, and, and I wanna say also the prices, books. We, we have these um perfunctory false notions that even the R LDS church admits that they’re the, they’re the, they are, even the R LDS church admits that Joseph was a polygamous. So there’s no more discussion to be had and we call the prices books debunked based on the prices debunked books. Nobody has ever debunked those books, nobody has ever dealt with them. They were written after this separation, right? And no one even takes the time to read them. They just do this like automatic assumption that they’ve been debunked. They haven’t, they do have um R LDS doctrine in them. That’s you, you know, that, that people can read through which is just fine. But the fact, the factual history that they present and the arguments they pre present are accurate and have never been dealt with. So I would welcome anyone who is an ex LDS or a community of Christ member or any of these other or, or an LDS polygamy promoter to deal to read Joseph Smith fought polygamy and deal honestly with it. It’s, it’s

[1:55:37] Cheryl Clute: worthwhile having, having known Pam and Richard Price since 1979. And before they even opened the bookstore, we lived in our other house. We lived just right down the street and around the corner from him. And, uh, I would go over there a lot to their home and buy books and things and we would share, you know, Richard and Pamela, we would talk and stuff. I’m gonna tell you what Pamela, Pamela and Richard Price are probably two of the most humble people I’ve ever known in my life. They are, they are just you very meek, humble. You would never know. You know, they are just, aren’t they? Danny? Just

[1:56:22] Dan Clute: Richard. Just a little, he’s passed away now, but just a little frail guy. But boy, I tell you, he did a marvelous. I

[1:56:28] Cheryl Clute: mean, it, it’s amazing. It’s, it’s amazing what they’ve done and, you know, they went to Utah and they studied in the archives for a long time. That’s where they got their information, you know. Um But uh they have really, really been used to do God’s work in these last days to get the truth out to all the saints. And I’m with you Michelle, we’re, we’re the Lord like this thing with me and Ryan. It’s all I always feel like it’s God’s perfect timing. He knows when anything is gonna happen. And right now the Lord is working to bring all the factions of the restoration that are willing to seek out the truth. He’s bringing us back together and like, I feel like you’re a sister already. You know, I, I feel bad about all my LDS friends and Danny’s all the time telling our R LDS friends. Cheryl’s got more LDS friends now than she does RLD as friends that she talks to all the time because I do, uh, one of the things that Jeremy and I know Jeremy will probably watch this. He was asking if we could get some firsthand account stuff for people of pe of people that had gone to NAV from left Nauvoo and went to West with Brigham and then they left, they had to get out of there. Well, I told him I would see what I could do. Well, I’ve got John Brush JC Clap, Mark Forst the vindicator. This is the family by John. John and Mary Griffith. This was the written, they took him from the diaries of their, their granddaughter wrote it. I have gotten um this is all I’m putting all this stuff in files. Charles Derry, his account of being it, being there. I uh I have gotten um let me put these on so I can see better Michelle uh a brother Malone Rh Atwood, brother Putney James W Gillan Henry Karen Ec Briggs, Elder Dykes Briggs, Alden Alexander, Alex mccord and lots more. I can’t even, I didn’t even write them all down and I’m, I’m putting all this uh firsthand accounts together in a file. So all hand counts and this, this book blew me away. The, this book called the vindicator. Um I’ll send you one Michelle. I was, I got a hold of the guy that I get old books from and he had some, but this is my copy. But I’m gonna tell you what in this book, it talks about Brigham Young to realize the seriousness of what was going on. It was necessary to understand Brigham Young’s position. This is when the army came in there to Utah. He could be compared to a king who was being dethroned. Besides the fight in his church, the United States government was claiming his Western empire. The Mormons had been moved out of other states. There was no place left to go. Young was so frantic over the events taking place. John knew he, he did things against his own desires to try to save his own neck. This book, this, this lady here that wrote it was the granddaughter of John and Mary Griffiths who went there from England and they tell the horror. The you’re not gonna believe it. I mean, it’s gonna, it’s so sad what they went through and what these people, all these books I showed you and I got a lot more. All this stuff are first hand accounts. That’s what Jeremy wanted. I’ve got two friends of mine right now that their ancestors went. They’ve got their diaries, they’re in the process of typing up their stories for me so I can have,

[2:00:50] Michelle: I’m so excited for you to add this. It’s gonna be such an

[2:00:54] Cheryl Clute: important family. So we’re, you know, so, yeah, so they’re gonna get Jeremy Jeremy’s ass for first hand accounts. He’s gonna get, so

[2:01:02] Michelle: he’s gonna get them and exactly what you read. We, yeah. Anyway, I have a lot of things to add to that, but we probably ought to be wrapping up pretty soon. Is there anything else that we haven’t covered? The trouble with?

[2:01:13] Cheryl Clute: You? Might wanna maybe

[2:01:15] Dan Clute: too, maybe too close from Brigham Young. We’ll wrap up with. How about that?

[2:01:19] Michelle: That’s great. OK.

[2:01:22] Dan Clute: This is for, and I think Cheryl sent you this book, uh Joseph Smith, who was he, did he teach or practice polygamy, fully documented everything he says. Ok, April 1845 Brigham Young said, Joseph in his lifetime did not receive everything connected with the doctrine of redemption, but he has left the key with those who understand how to obtain and teach to this great people. All that is necessary for their salvation and exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God. So Joseph didn’t receive everything connected with the doctrine of redemption. OK. That was uh times and Seasons volume six page 955. And this is Brigham Young also, if I have any knowledge, touching the condition of this people at the present time and the way they are taught, led, counseled and dictated by those who go before them to open up the way it is directly opposite of that we saw in the days of Joseph, the prophet directly of that we saw in the days of Joseph, the prophet journal discourses volume one page 78. Uh and the, and the, and the writer says, just so Joseph Smith taught the principle of monogamy. Brigham taught the doctrine of polygamy, just the opposite of what Joseph taught how pertinent. Therefore, the statement of Brigham to Senator Trumbull that polygamy was not originally a part of the doctrine of the church established by the Palmyra seer, but was adopted by Brigham, the Brigham mis as a necessity after they went to Utah.

[2:03:16] Michelle: That’s and, and we’re learning

[2:03:18] Dan Clute: with other references. Also, I can probably send you of saints that went to Utah and basically said this isn’t the church we joined. We don’t even recognize this.

[2:03:27] Cheryl Clute: That’s what the first hand accounts. I have a lot of them say that. And

[2:03:30] Dan Clute: this is coming from journal discourses also. And then the the leaders got condemning them and criticizing them for saying that. But this is evidence that the church, people that left the church when Joseph was alive and they went out there to Utah and we don’t even recognize the church anymore. This isn’t the church, you know, we joined.

[2:03:48] Michelle: Absolutely. Absolutely. There’s very sketchy similarity

[2:03:54] Cheryl Clute: when I was growing up, Michelle and my, the grand family, they would tell me that Brigham Young when he got out to Utah, he completely rewrote history that it was all changed so that the Saints would not know the truth. And I think we’re kind of seeing that now since the Joseph Smith papers and things have came out, you know, where they’ve showed where the stuff has been erased and added and,

[2:04:21] Michelle: yeah, absolutely. And that’s, it makes me love the prophecies and all of this to me gives me like, just makes me love the book of Mormon that much more because it talks about the hidden things of darkness being revealed and all things will be revealed and all of the, you know, it will all come forward in the end and it’s thrilling to see that happening and, and to get to be a part of it is amazing because like I said, when I started this podcast, I thought I was completely alone. It was just me, you know, doing what I felt like the Lord told me to do and um and to see how it all, how many other people are having similar experiences and similar answers and, and there is so much divine help like, and, and so many pieces coming together, everything you’re saying about I have episodes planned on the temple that I’m still working on. It might maybe that one will air before this one. But we’re recording this one before I’ve aired my temple one and others on blood atonement and all of and, and those Cheryl is a resource that I’ve been able to reach out to, to say, do you have any sources on this? And, and it’s been amazing. I know that when I um there were a lot of people that are claiming falsely but claiming that every single person who was at that High Council meeting, the October 1843 I believe High Council meeting where Hiram read the revelation. They’re saying every single person there has tested that it was that it was 132. Well, that is patently false. We have many testimonies, but I was looking for resources on that and praying because it’s overwhelming you, you know, the amount of research to do and trying to find things that I need so much to find help and just the the whisperings of the spirit. I woke up that very next morning after praying that I just had this voice, this familiar voice that I recognize that just said there were two other men at that meeting, which was like, of course, and it was that very morning that you sent me Joseph and Hyrum testimonies of that meeting. There are other people. Um William marks as the president of the High Council would have been at that meeting. So it’s, it’s false anyway. But it’s just, it is amazing to see how involved the Lord is in this work in so many ways from so many directions and the what’s being brought together and the bonds that are being created from people from completely disparate groups, being brought together in this new way is it’s profound to witness. I love it.

[2:06:49] Cheryl Clute: I’ll tell you what Michelle we, uh we’ve got friends, you know, some that work at the restoration bookstore and other people that I gotta give credit to because they have really helped a lot. If we can’t find the answer, I can call them. And they, they pretty much know where to find it. I know these people they are. So I give credit where credit’s due.

[2:07:12] Dan Clute: I have to read at least a couple more things just real quick. And these aren’t very long. It’s from early history of the organization. Uh Apostle Edmund C Briggs. At times in the very early part of the organization, he was the only missionary out and he uh out doing missionary work. There were times when he had uh companions with him, but they had families or maybe jobs or businesses, whatever that they had to go back to. And so there were times he was the only missionary of the R LDS church in the very early days of it. And, and anyway, he said, I have met thousands of old members of the church who were well acquainted with Joseph. And yet I never saw a man who heard Joseph teach polygamy, but they said that they had heard him denounce it as a corrupt doctrine. Thousands of church members, you know, a lot of them were in, in uh Iowa and different places up there is where he was doing his missionary work. And then uh talking to Brother Mars, I then said, uh uh Brother Marks, did you ever see the Revelation on polygamy before it was published in 1852 by Mr Pratt Marks emphatically replied, quote. No, never. You were president of the stake at Nauvoo. And if Joseph had such a revelation, would you not have been privileged according to custom to have seen it or heard of it? He replied yes, without a doubt, there was no such revelation in existence when I lived in Navoo just after Joseph’s death. Brigham Young would have showed it to me when I opposed his measures, but he never pretended to any such thing to me that there was such a revelation on the subject from Joseph.

[2:09:07] Michelle: That is a, that is a great quote. It’s so true. He would have showed it. Absolutely. He would have produced it but it wasn’t ready yet. It hadn’t finished cooking yet in his desk drawer. So, ok, this has been delightful. It’s so good to um get to sit down with you guys and let people hear your stories. I wish that we could share everything. There’s um there are more things, but there are the, the Lord is manifesting the truth of this in profound ways and I just feel like it will keep growing and growing and growing and help everybody come to God and come together. It’s, it’s a really amazing thing to see. So, thank you so much. Is there anything you want to say in closing?

[2:09:53] Dan Clute: One thing I want to point out is Cheryl, like she said, has a lot of LDS, female friends. I, I sit here and can kind of hear the closing part of the conversation and, and they will say I love you and she will say I love you also. So we do love our LDS uh friends very much and consider them our brothers and sisters.

[2:10:14] Cheryl Clute: When you turn off the recording. Can I talk to you a second? Yes. OK. You know, when you, yeah, just

[2:10:21] Dan Clute: real quick. And again, we appreciate everything

[2:10:24] Cheryl Clute: we do. You, you’re back when we get done here, we’re gonna turn you and Jeremy back on. Excellent. You know, you know Michelle, you know, one of my LDS friends sent me that book called uh The Ghost of Polygamy to read. And it wasn’t until I read that book that I realized how it affect, affected the women then and now still to this day, right? Said, I, I never realized that because we never had to deal with it here in the oral d, you know, we never had to deal with it. So

[2:10:59] Michelle: I, I loved the answer. It just, I want to say one last thing in closing. I loved the answer. You read that the leaders that the founders of the R LDS church received when they prayed to know is polygamy of God. And that is the invitation that I always want to present is let people pray and ask with an open mind trying to erase God. Sometimes can’t get through the piles of indoctrination and preconceptions we have. But if we can get to a truly humble place, God can start taking us on this journey to teach. And the second question we can genuinely ask is, was Joseph the author of Polygamy, was God the author of Polygamy and was Joseph the author of Polygamy. And I believe that God gives us those answers or prepares the way to begin to teach us the truth on those principles. So that’s my hope for that everybody will be open and willing to ask. So thank you so much, both of you for taking this time and I look forward to continued association. Hopefully we’ll get to meet each other many more times going forward. So thank you for all that you have done. You got a

[2:12:07] Cheryl Clute: guest bedroom. If you want to come stay with us,

[2:12:10] Michelle: maybe I will.

[2:12:11] Dan Clute: We’re, we’re sharing you with all of our R LDS friends and tell them to watch your podcast and, and they do and they’re, and they’re loving what you do. So you’re, I remember the last thing you could cut this out later, but as we’re leaving the home, we had a visit in and, and we was talking about women of the priesthood a little bit and this, that, and I told you you’re doing a greater work than most priesthood are doing with what you’re doing. Well,

[2:12:34] Michelle: thank you so much. I appreciate that. It’s um, it’s, it’s, it’s very humbling and I feel very blessed. So, thank you. And I, we will talk again soon.

[2:12:48] Dan Clute: Bye.

[2:12:49] Michelle: I hope you found that episode as fun and delightful and informative as I did. I really liked taking the time to sit down and talk to them. I’m sad because after we turned the camera off, we had a lot more conversation, we spoke about Emma and I, I mentioned something about how challenging this topic is for people in my faith who have been taught from our infancy that the prophet can never lead us astray. And Cheryl interrupted me and said she was taught the exact opposite that she was always taught that thing that we mentioned that the leaders of the church, you know, their words are true if they are consistent with the standard works and confirmed by the spirit. And I think that is such a healthy way to approach this discussion. And it’s interesting to me to see how both of those traditions can grow out of the same restoration. So I think we are perfectly free to adopt that perspective on church leaders and their words and their possible mistakes. And that helps us have a little easier time dealing with the things that Brigham Young said and did so. Anyway, thank you so much for being here this time and I will see you next time.