80: The Feminine, The Matrimonial Order and the Ordinances of the Flesh w/Gwendolyn Wyne

A huge thanks to Gwendolyn Wyne for this conversation. I strongly recommend her articles and youtube channel.

Please consider supporting this podcast:

Links:
Gwendolyn Wyne’s YouTube channel

Gwendolyn’s published writing

Her preferred brand of feminism

Church news article about the non-Latter-day Saint biography on Joseph Smith Jr that is in the works

Transcript:

[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 problems revisiting Mormon polygamy where we explore the scriptural and theological case for plural marriage. I am excited to bring to you this conversation with my new friend Gwendolyn Wyne. Um I love talking to women about their experiences, especially spending their lives, raising a family and um high intensity dedication to church service and then embarking on a new adventure later in life. I think that’s a wonderful discussion to have and I also love that um that that these conversations are being had and that so much thought is being done about the, about the feminine, about new ways, I guess old ways to think about the feminine but new ways as well that I think that none of us claims to have all of these answers. But my hope is that as we all engage in this thought and in seeking and discussing that more and more light and knowledge will be poured out upon us so that all of us can grow in greater truth and understanding of our eternal nature and our eternal destiny. I think that that is so important. So I hope you find this conversation um useful and enlightening. I hope it spurs a lot of thought for you. I think we have so much to learn about both the masculine and the feminine and I love, love the things that Gwendolyn and I were able to talk about. I know we could have spoken for hours. It could have gone 100 different directions. I’m sure we will be talking again. And I also appreciate her insights about the journey of getting published again. I hope that a lot of people will join in these endeavors, the more voices, the more ideas, the more attitude um um avenues that we are approaching this from the better off, we will all be so. Thank you so much for joining us as we take this deep dive into the murky waters of Mormon Polygamy and the exciting frontier of the feminine. Ok. I am so excited to be here with my new friend Gwendolyn Wyne who um I had the privilege of meeting, I think last summer when you came over and introduced yourself to me, friend Gwendolyn. We have been, I’ve been looking forward to this conversation for months. I was just, I been able to get, get the time together with our frantic schedules and the my frantic podcasting schedule. So I’m just so excited to be here. I feel like Gwendolyn. I like so many of the rest of you out there. I think you will feel this being kind of kindred spirits of really loving and caring about the feminine but not being able to align with the feminist movement. Right? I feel like we’re more, I guess I call myself either a maternal feminine or a true lover of the feminine because it feels like so often feminism is about trying to make women into men and claiming women are just as good at being men as men are rather than embracing and loving the feminine and sort of sort of insisting on elevating the feminine as feminine, right? Rather than trying to change the feminine into masculine, to give it validity. That’s how

[03:03] Gwendolyn Wyne: it feels to me. I identify as a feminist who loves men and wants to be men and I want to be a woman. So

[03:09] Michelle: yes, of course. And I think we both recognize there’s the spectrum is broad and wide and women and men are perfectly needed and valued no matter how they want to show up in this world,

[03:20] Gwendolyn Wyne: right? And I don’t even use the word feminist because right off the bat, it triggers people. And so. Right. Right.

[03:26] Michelle: It’s like how you want to show up. If you are a woman who wants a career and doesn’t want Children, then you do you. If that’s truly what you want. And if you are a woman who wants to raise a family and dedicate your life to motherhood, you need to be valued, accepted, elevated, given the platform and the support you need to live your life as well. And it is beautiful and valid and wonderful. That’s what we’ve both done.

[03:47] Gwendolyn Wyne: Right. Yeah, exactly. That’s right. So, I

[03:50] Michelle: have loved reading. Ok. So I guess I should finish the introduction and I’ll let you talk a little bit about yourself too. But I know that we has written several articles that have been published, I believe mainly in square two. Is that the natural? Ok. And, um, they are beautiful. I’m so thankful that I got to read them. I love, I love the way you think and the way you articulate it, just like I said, kind of Kindred spirits. I’m like, oh, this is beautiful. I love it. And it’s

[04:16] Gwendolyn Wyne: easier for me to write. It’s easier for me to write than it is to talk. So I just admire your ability to speak. And I’m thinking, ok, we’ll see how this goes. I don’t know.

[04:26] Michelle: So great. And I will link, I will link Gwendolyn’s articles below and then Gwendolyn started a new podcast as well. So I will link, I will put a link to that so that the more voices in this space, the better, right? That’s, that’s what we’re trying to accomplish. So that’s why I’m here. Ok, perfect. There are several reasons I wanted to have Gwendolyn on. I wanted her to share her ideas. I just wanted to have also this discussion of sort of the, all of these words are complicated, but sort of the divine feminine and the divinity of the masculine and feminine in this world. There is so much to discuss here and I think we’ve both thought deeply about these concepts and I think it will be a good conversation. Then also Gwendolyn, I know you might not want to talk about this quite much, but I want to talk about just the, the um interesting space of kind of needing to get, get published in order to be given credibility and taken seriously in certain, in certain realms and the challenge of getting published with unconventional ideas. That’s another thing because I have several journal articles that I am where I love to write and I love to speak and it’s a challenge to do both. But I’m working on journal articles specifically on, well, I don’t know if you watch the episode, I did a little while ago on the um contraception and birth

[05:39] Gwendolyn Wyne: control. So I watch all your episodes, Michelle and I love the contraception one. It was like, why hasn’t anybody looked at it like this before?

[05:50] Michelle: II I know. And so I’m working on a journal article that I’m trying to finagle? So that because it’s like this needs to be in the academic side of it because it’s academic, it is rigorous. I need to take it seriously. And so I’m trying to finagle it in a way that I might be able to get it published. Despite the challenge of only being willing to publish things that go along with the current narrative on one side or the other was a polygamist no matter what. Right. So,

[06:17] Gwendolyn Wyne: OK, so this is really interesting because I’ve been thinking over the last while, the challenge that, that you have that I have because I also fall into the camp of like this evidence that just as a polygamist kind of comes from one specific. Um I mean, it comes from all over, right? But once his there was no DNA descendants, I was like, wait a minute. That’s weird. So looking more closely, I also fall into this camp of like, we should look a lot more closely at some of these records. And the Joseph Smith papers are huge when you, when you see that the history was manipulated, like, OK, once again, let’s look even closer. But as I’m thinking about how that gets out into the the larger conversation, you have to have academic backing, right? You have to have people and, and that’s a good thing that it takes time for ideas to, they have to percolate and they have to go through a rigorous like peer reviewed um process. You can’t just say, hey, guess what? I figured it out, everybody and the whole world changes and accepts it, you know. So I was thinking OK, for this to actually get momentum or for people to really buy into it, it does take time, takes a lot of years So one of the ways is that it, it goes through the academic process as you’re doing, but also you have to have people getting their phd s in this um or being able to say it with this doctorate because now we believe that like a doctor is kind of the, the ultimate expert. Yeah. Um but the other option, which I think is a really interesting potential is that someone who already is a phd and who does have that accreditation, writes a biography about Joseph Smith and has that perspective and I don’t know if you heard about this, but there is a, a man who’s not a member, he’s a phd and he’s writing a biography on Joseph Smith right now and that’s happening right now. Maybe

[08:09] Michelle: I can put me in touch with him after I would love

[08:11] Gwendolyn Wyne: to, I have no idea if he’s watching these sorts of things. But I’m like, I hope he is watching so that he doesn’t just take what has been given to him that he actually sees. There’s a lot more out there. Um There was an article about it a few years ago in the church news, I think that the church was really happy about it because this is the first biography that’s been written about Joseph and who knows, maybe Fon Brodie was, but she was a member, right? So this is kind of our first like outsider biography of Joseph Smith in so long And so the church was just like hooray. Here’s all the information that we have about him. And so the church has been very actively wanting to provide him with whatever he needs to, to know about Joseph. And I definitely think that that will be a certain narrative. Um So it’ll be interesting to see what happens because on one hand, these things can take a lot of time. On the other hand, things can last.

[09:06] Michelle: Well, I, I do think that the, I think that it’s not what, what takes a long time is shifting, just everybody’s mindset, right? Like the knowledge can be brought forward. Like people, I like the grassroots efforts because people can hear this information and go oh my gosh, it’s obvious which I think is happening with more and more and more people as this information becomes more readily available and present. You know, when people hear these facts, it’s like, ok, the case is made, what takes a long time is to get the people who their entire careers are built and established on the old narrative to get them. They may never change, right? And so it’s, it’s taking, it’s, it’s letting the ideas have credibility for all those who just want to say tinfoil hot wearing conspiracists and, and, and think that that’s all they have to do to deal with this. Right? And so, so I do, it’ll be interesting to see where it goes. I keep making the prediction. I think that like within five years it will not be, you know, I, I think, yeah. Well, I think within five years it, it will be um the minority position growing, growing more and more. The Joseph was a polygamist, I think will become more and more the minority position. I can’t, I’m not prophesying, you know, but just where I see things going, it is so hugely one directional, no new information is coming out to, to support Joseph’s polygamy. All, all of that is based on a very old narrative that has been disproven. Just people haven’t let the new knowledge affect their conclusions yet. And so that’s why I keep hitting as many angles as possible is, you know, and so that’s so there’s so many things that we, that we can and should talk about.

[10:45] Gwendolyn Wyne: It’s just fun. It’s fun to think about all the ways that this could, this could unfold.

[10:49] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. And I do think more people, I just so people know you don’t need any specific um degree or to, to be able to publish, you just need to write good articles and um submit them to various journals. So if anyone wants to join in that effort, I’m really wanting to do the articles on, well, I haven’t done my episode on it yet, but the fact that there is such strong evidence to show that there were two, at least two different ar ar um documents that were amalgamated into 132. You know, there’s such strong evidence for that. I’m going to do an episode on it. I would like to write that paper and then I would like to write the paper on that. We need to separate out any kinds of birth control or abortion from our discussion of Joseph Smith. So I, and I guess I’m inviting anyone else that wants to join because if we can get into some of these journals, it forces the conversation to some degree. And, um, but there the rub, right, because the journals, that’s what I wanted to talk to you about. Like, you didn’t have any, any articles rejected from journals until you tried to address polygamy, not being a true doctrine. Right.

[11:57] Gwendolyn Wyne: Well, to be fair and totally honest and transparent, I didn’t start polygamy was where I started my writing. So, just kind of, um, a little bit of, of where I was, I just felt at, at some point. I, you know, I was a mom, I was relieved society president. I was really busy and I just felt like I was supposed to be doing something and the pressure kept increasing. And so I thought maybe we’re supposed to have another baby, you know, because that’s kind of what I’m doing right now. Yeah. Yeah, I just thought something supposed, I, I know I should be doing something very specific. And so I took, this was in 2020 like I had kind of some dreams and I was like, I’m supposed to be doing something. It just felt very, very urgent. And so I took a weekend away by myself so that I could, you know, think and pray and meditate and all these things. And I had a really clear dream again that it was not supposed to have another baby like that is not for me. And I even kind of went to the Lord. Like here are the reasons why I would get pregnant again. Here are the reasons why I wouldn’t if I hear nothing from you, I’m I’m gonna fall on the side of have another baby, get pregnant because I, I think it’s a blessing to the world to have good people come into the world and I love my Children. Um but I had a really clear dream dream that was like I should not be doing that. And so it was like, what, what am I, I mean, I know that I can do more than being a mom but, but I didn’t feel called back into, I, I’m a librarian and I set that aside to have Children. And so I didn’t feel called back into that. So I just kind of wasn’t sure what to do. Um and then, you know, eventually got released from my relief society president calling, which is nice. It’s been, it was an exhausting four years and then um I ended up in activity days with the girls, which was so fun. And so I set my own goals because I thought I don’t, I have to figure this out. I’m not sure what I should be doing. So, one of my goals for intellectual was just to start writing twice a week for like 45 minutes. And I just started free writing whatever because I didn’t know I’m like, I, I have no idea what I should be doing. I didn’t think I was supposed to be writing, but I knew that if I was writing that would help me clarify my own thoughts. So pretty quickly, themes started to emerge and you know, uh not necessarily even the feminine divine, although you could call it that just who we are as women and, and what we can bring to the world and how needed we are as ourselves, right? Not as men, not as like men, junior, right? But, but as women. Um and so polygamy was one of the first things that really started to come together like really full and, and that was because I had a few years previously come to this realization that it was not part of eternity. It just wasn’t um I don’t know how you, you got there trying to prove your husband wrong.

[14:46] Michelle: OK. So I want OK, so I did not do it all in adequate introduction. First. Tell me a little bit about like, so you have five Children. Is that

[14:54] Gwendolyn Wyne: correct? Five Children. Yeah. Yeah. Ok.

[14:57] Michelle: And you had five young Children? Were they all under 10 while you were the relief society president?

[15:01] Gwendolyn Wyne: Yes, I got called when my, when baby number four, II, I got called when baby number four was like five months old in a few weeks because I kind of told the Lord I was like, I just need like six months to whatever. And I didn’t expect that. So it was like five months and two weeks in the bishop, he actually came over to our house. He was so cool and so nice. And I live in, in Los Angeles. And so we’re just, it’s just a different, we just do it differently out there.

[15:29] Michelle: Yeah.

[15:31] Gwendolyn Wyne: So he came over and he kind of like saw what was going on and he was like, cool, well, good to see you and he just left. He, he did not,

[15:39] Michelle: didn’t send the call.

[15:41] Gwendolyn Wyne: He was like, I can’t do. And then he felt like it kept coming back to him. And so then he called me and with my husband that time and he was like, I’m, I’m so sorry, I just feel that you don’t have to say yes, but I also felt like you, I don’t know, it just felt right and I’m, I’m willing to, you know, like I love the Lord, I love the church. I, I know the church isn’t perfect but I’m willing to help, you know. And so like, OK, it’s gonna be messy.

[16:13] Michelle: Yeah. Do you know what I love that? Because I think, I think that all of us need to walk that delicate balance between a willingness to serve, combined with a willingness to serve our families and ourselves and say no when we need to say no because so when it’s that inspired and you also feel it even if it feels impossible. I no, for we both know from experience that the Lord magnifies us. And also like, like at near the end of it, you were left feeling like there are things I’m supposed to be doing, doing. So it’s kind of like the Lord was teaching you potentially to be a mother while doing another stewardship at the same time. Yes. And so and then on the same time, so I have to tell a quick my first four were all in diapers together because I had little boys 18 months apart and then 18 months, 18.5 months later, I had twin identical twin girls. So I prefer that were like, like like barely three. They were all four in diapers. And um my babies were not even two months old, my twins and I got called to nursery. I got called to nursery because my two little boys were both in nursery. So like, well, we figured you have kids here. So you, I was like, I

[17:23] Gwendolyn Wyne: for one hour I need,

[17:25] Michelle: well, it’s not, it’s like how do I like? My husband can’t even keep my twins for an hour because they’re nursing and he wasn’t a baby guy, you know, like I literally cannot physically do this call and I’m not gonna bring twins into nursery, you know. So that was one of those and that we’re so taught that you accept calls, you do not say no. So that one like run me out, you know, like the stress of what do I do? God am I? You know, so if I go back and talk to myself, I would be like, no, you say no, there is no inspiration to this guy. And and when I did finally say no, the bishop was like, oh, ok, well then how about this call? That one just came in first. So I thought, you know, so there’s no inspiration to it as I’m killing myself. So anyway, I guess I want to give us permission to both sides to accept a call like the relief society president with a newborn fifth baby if

[18:13] Gwendolyn Wyne: it was fourth. But, but I had 1/5 baby.

[18:17] Michelle: Yes. So tiny little kids and it seems impossible. But if the Lord says yes, then be willing to accept. And at the same time, if the Lord says no, be willing to not accept, it’s so important for us to have that personal stewardship and that personal power empowerment, right?

[18:33] Gwendolyn Wyne: Yes. And I have to say couple of years earlier before that calling. I kind of went through a personal crisis where I’ve heard you talk about this where I felt like I was doing, I was meeting everyone’s wants before my needs. You know, I’m hoping to meet my kids needs before my needs, even though I’m supposed to put on my mask first and all that. But I’m happy to sacrifice for them. But I was, I was, I was all out of balance and all, you know, and so I kind of hit this crisis where it was a hard thing for our family. It really was because it was like, what’s mom do you know? She suddenly just like, I don’t care about any of you. And I, you know, personally I was like, I have to Reprioritize. I, I could just kill myself and no one would even know that I’ve been working myself to death. Like none of you even notice how hard I’m working. So maybe I should not work so hard and, and that’ll be better for all of us. And so,

[19:21] Michelle: ok, that’s so really we need like motherhood is this amazing opportunity to come to know the Lord sheer necessity, right? Yes, we need the direction so that motivates us to figure out how to get it.

[19:36] Gwendolyn Wyne: Well, some 10 boy. Now I’m not gonna, I think it might have been Elder Bednar in one general conference. He um he said he was talking about the benefits of having a AAA very elderly man running the church. And he said, you know, when you can’t or maybe it was President Ballard told Bednar or something when you can’t do what you’ve always been able to do, you just do what is necessary. And I remember elbowing my husband and I was like, yeah, old men and young mothers, that’s who learns that, you know, so I might wanna, might wanna bring our young mothers up because they also learn that exact same thing that you cannot, you no longer can do everything you have to do what is necessary and it sometimes doesn’t look very pretty from the outside.

[20:18] Michelle: So even just the challenge of um so and and I don’t want to speak for everyone because some people have easier pregnancies, some have hard pregnancy. I have very hard pregnancies and every time I would get that unmistakable answer that there’s another baby and you go through this crisis of I’m already not cutting it as a mom, you know, like, and if I, if I get that sick again, what’s this gonna look like? How can I, how can I? And it’s kind of that the same as accepting a calling, whether it’s from the Lord or from, you know, and it’s, well, your calling was from the Lord because you felt inspired to accept your calling for the release of. And so it’s that willingness to say yes to things that seem so challenging when, you know, it’s from God, right? And the willingness to recognize when it’s outside pressure or expectations, like I needed to recognize my feelings of failure as a mom. We not for God, they were based on the outside expectations and the pressure that I thought. Right? So discerning that. So there, there are input for young moms that are struggling through this, like, learn the difference between God’s voice and the expectation of the world or the voice of the world wherever it’s from. And because

[21:29] Gwendolyn Wyne: no one knows what’s going on inside of you, no one knows. And we all have different limits about different things. Like some people are really good at keeping a clean house and some are not.

[21:40] Michelle: And that’s what them, for some women like having a clean house is what makes them feel good. And for other women, the need to have a clean house is what makes them feel worthless.

[21:53] Gwendolyn Wyne: Yeah. So, and all these things are good but you can’t do all good things. You just can’t, you have to pick and, and also it was helpful for me that I had kind of had that personal crisis because when I did accept the call of relief society president, I did not go in there thinking I’m gonna do all these things. I was like, well, I can do about this much. So everybody else like

[22:15] Michelle: that elevates.

[22:17] Gwendolyn Wyne: Yeah. Our, our older sisters, they were amazing. But all the women who were older and wiser than me were so loving and they were just like, I can’t believe this is happening. We have to help her. And one of the ladies who was physically not able to do a lot, she called me a after a while, I mean people brought me dinners like they were just, everyone was just aghast.

[22:41] Michelle: Yeah, but a beautiful

[22:44] Gwendolyn Wyne: story. Yeah. But this 11 sister who I just, I just love her. She called me and she was like, I’ve been trying to think of a way that I can help you and I, I can’t babysit and I can’t clean houses, but I want to offer to do your laundry. And yeah, and I was like, you know, for a second I was like, no. And then I was like, thank you. Yes. Um and so, so I would wash it because it’s easier for you as a mom to be like what’s, what’s torn, what’s whatever. So I would wash all of it. But she would come by one once a week, she would pick up my loads of laundry, take him back to her house and then bring them back. And she did this for two years, five years.

[23:26] Michelle: Ok. I, and you know, this is,

[23:28] Gwendolyn Wyne: this is who our people are. Like, these are

[23:31] Michelle: the recipients of similar service. I had a woman that was my visiting teacher and my um her husband was our home teacher and, and she just saw the, I was pregnant at the time and she said, yeah. And I, like, like, with, that was a really complicated pregnancy. I was having migraines and kind of mini strokes and, you know, like, it, it just was, I have hard pregnancies and she just started coming over and cleaning my house, like, every week and she did that for and, and no matter how hard of a fight I tried to put up, I was too tired to put up a strong enough and she did, came up with her cheerful, like, oh, I just started working as I was to tell you. And I mean, it was like, people are so amazing and it calls me to be like, ok, how can I be that kind of a person?

[24:16] Gwendolyn Wyne: But don’t worry yourself doing it. Like, just do what you can do. We all just do what you can do.

[24:21] Michelle: Absolutely. Just rely on the Lord for your personal direction because we need everyone that does everything. And so, yeah. Yes,

[24:29] Gwendolyn Wyne: exactly. So, ok. So it was during

[24:31] Michelle: this time.

[24:32] Gwendolyn Wyne: Yeah. No, it’s totally fine. I, I’ll jump in. So it was during this time when I was really society president that, um, I, I had struggled with polygamy my whole life. I was never ok with it. Like, I’m, I’m part of the, not even one club, right? Like, not even once did I hear polygamy? And I was like, yeah, I think that could work it was, like, always darkness. Always, like the worst. Right? It was just, where did you,

[24:54] Michelle: did you grow up in Utah? Like I, some people.

[24:57] Gwendolyn Wyne: Mhm. So, I, my family, I’ve got, um, pioneer ancestry going up both sides. Um, so, and we, we even have novo polygamous in my line. So we really, um, so you knew, we’ve, we’ve got it. Yeah, I knew. But I grew up in, I grew up in L A. Um That’s just how it worked out for our family to be there. But it was always very disturbing for me and even just like the patriarchy of it that, that the men preside over the women. I was like, this isn’t right. Like it was just like something’s not right here. And I couldn’t, you know, if you’re not a member of the church and you’re listening, you’re just like, duh,

[25:34] Michelle: I know,

[25:35] Gwendolyn Wyne: OK. But when you grow up in the end, the book of Mormon is full of so much light, you know, you can’t just say like I reject it all. It’s like there’s something here, there’s something here. So, but there was also something wrong and I was just like, you know, little old me, who am I to say that all of this is wrong? That’s

[25:55] Michelle: right. Ridiculous.

[25:57] Gwendolyn Wyne: So, so just it was always a problem. But while I was relief society president and I hadn’t thought about it in these terms, but I wonder if it is just part of that loving generosity of God where, where God’s like, you’re serving and blessing and loving and you’re not, you know, I wasn’t mad about my call and I was just like, well, here’s what I can do, let’s just know, just do it. And it was fun for me too. It was fun to be like, not mom. But now I’m in this, this like other, it’s not corporate but you know what I mean? It was just totally another one and it was fun and I loved it but it was during this time that, oh, here’s what it was. Carolyn Pearson’s book came out The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy. I saw the title. My husband bought it because he had known all along. Like we had had a lot of and he has never bless his heart. Never once tried to even gently help me feel better about it. He’s just like, yeah, it’s pretty bad, you know. Yeah. He always validated. We would leave the temple and I would need like, 30 minutes just to cry in the car on a regular basis because it was just so hard. I could hear it. I was like, something’s wrong and everybody else is like, no, no, I’m like, I don’t, something’s wrong but he always just let me cry and didn’t, he didn’t try to make me feel better, which is really helpful because it’s not ok. But I know it’s not ok. Right. I love him for that.

[27:25] Michelle: I hope husbands can do that too because really, even when they’re trying to help you feel better, what they’re doing is joining in the gas lighting, joining in the enabling like, no, it’s, it’s a problem with you, honey, you just need to get in line with it. You know what I mean? Like, he didn’t do that

[27:39] Gwendolyn Wyne: at all and his personality is very much like, buck up. Come on, you can do it, you know, but he did not hand off on that topic. He just did not say a word. So which I loved. So he bought the book, he saw it and he was like, yeah, this is, she’s gonna want to read this. And so I read it right away and was not surprised by anything because that’s my story too. He was just like, yeah, that’s how bad it is. But one thing really got me and it was as I was reading it, I just remember thinking she knows it’s not true. But how does she know that? Like, like I kept waiting for the part and she did this isn’t a record

[28:15] Michelle: like make the case. That’s because for me that’s where I, I was like, oh good a book came out that’s gonna make the case that I felt like I needed to make.

[28:23] Gwendolyn Wyne: Yeah. Yeah. Well, yes. So I just, and I, and I don’t fault her for that at all. Like she felt called to do what she did and that was perfect because I think it really, um, it really called a lot of other people up to be like, well, wait a minute, how do you know? It’s not true. Like, why are you so confident in that? And, and so I started to kind of think, how can I know, you know, how do I know polygamy is true or not true? Because we’ve said some crazy stuff, right? Our history is like, this is the only

[28:51] Michelle: way, right?

[28:53] Gwendolyn Wyne: It’s like, well, that’s kind of dramatic, you know, if, if that like we should know if that’s what we’re heading into. It was never, it was never a thing about like, oh, if I leave the church, then I can set it aside because it’s like, no, if this is real, like, I can’t, I cannot hide from it. It will be

[29:12] Michelle: OK.

[29:13] Gwendolyn Wyne: And there was so much good, like, there’s so much good in the church and I, I love the book of Mormon. I have a, I have a testimony of it and I love the savior. I have a testimony that he is my personal savior. And so it’s just like, it’s not about the church. Like,

[29:26] Michelle: so it’s that interesting opposition in all things that you talk about in one of your articles. So it’s kind of like, again, just like we were talking about with being a young mom, it’s kind of discerning between the truth and the error which I am convinced will always be there and always have to be there in this temporal world because it’s to be grown, right? So it requires us just the same way. It requires us to develop a connection to God, to source right? To be able to say, nobody can tell me what’s right and wrong. Nobody can. I need to figure out how to know because I be led to the things that will help me to know.

[30:02] Gwendolyn Wyne: Yeah. Yeah. So that’s where I was. I was like, I need to know like I can’t, I can’t just assume that it’s not true because it might be true. And I really don’t, I really don’t want to wait like if it and I, I even kind of was at a place where I was like, you know, God, if this is true, like I’ll accept this. Um Even though it, it sounds like hell and frankly, I would not like to be wherever this is like I would prefer to not, but if it’s true and this is good and beautiful, like I’ll accept it, but I just, you know, I need to figure out what, what you actually say about this. And so I started just, you know, personally, like looking for signs and trying to imagine like, if I was God, how could I communicate it? Right? Because men say, and women, right? People say all kinds of things, right? And God knew that God knew that people would say different things. So how could God communicate it in a way that was unfiltered. And one of the first things besides Adam and Eve, which was like, well, that’s pretty clear. Right.

[31:00] Michelle: Absolutely.

[31:02] Gwendolyn Wyne: And then no one and his wife and it’s like, that’s pretty clear too. But then the other one that really stuck out to me was our bodies themselves are a witness from God that’s unfiltered, right? Like, and like

[31:16] Michelle: actual physical creation, the actual biology,

[31:19] Gwendolyn Wyne: the biology of it, right? A man, right? We are supposed to cleave and that, that God is life, right? Like all that makes life and creates life. That’s God. And so if life itself is created through one man and one woman and all other options are forbidden, like you can’t do it any other way. There’s only one option, right? Says something that’s God saying something. God’s like, no, this must be 1 to 1. You cannot, right? Not to be too. But if

[31:51] Michelle: we go into this,

[31:52] Gwendolyn Wyne: yeah. Yeah, let’s do it.

[31:54] Michelle: Well, here’s the thing. If anything, anyone is really squeamish and uncomfortable with this, can I just say God isn’t like, it’s ok if people are squeamish but they don’t want to listen. But God isn’t squeamish about this and

[32:05] Gwendolyn Wyne: I, I can mention the anatomy, right? I don’t wanna know.

[32:09] Michelle: Yeah, I want to talk about it because years ago I did the thing where I was like, OK, God’s language is symbol, symbolism, right? Everything is symbolic. So teach me about the sym symbolism of sex and I received so many answers. I want to talk about that at that. Yeah. So go ahead and share you some of your thoughts and I’ll share some of mine.

[32:27] Gwendolyn Wyne: Yes. Yeah, because I definitely don’t, don’t have like all the answers, right? But I think we, I think we

[32:32] Michelle: all build on each other as we keep learning and discussing. That’s how we learn. Right? Yeah.

[32:37] Gwendolyn Wyne: And so I just could see like if, if you must make life with one on one, you know, men, men have one penis and that’s it, right? They can’t leave to more than one woman at a time. Both of us, both of us can go have multiple sexual partners if we want. They can, we can. But it’s

[32:55] Michelle: not, it’s not period. And, and

[32:58] Gwendolyn Wyne: so let me, it’s forbidden. It

[33:00] Michelle: is, right? So when I was, it is it is forbidden by God and by our flesh. And so a couple of oh, there are so many directions I want to go, but I’ll go to this one when I was really praying about this, right? Like the sacredness of the womb. It is the sacred space where metamorphosis occurs, right? Where life is developed and brought forth into a new realm of being, right? And so, and I, I was thinking about this um years ago, but I think the temple even is a symbol of the sacredness of sex inside is the womb. The womb is that protected space where we merge through the veil into a new realm symbolically, right? And it literally, but it shows us the path because we are going to again emerge out into a new realm of being. And the outside is the structure that provides this safety and security with the steeple that reaches to heaven, which is a phallic symbol, whether, you know, like the power of God that is the outside that protects and defends and keeps that inner, that inner sacred and protected, so that metamorphosis can occur, right? And so that um there can only be one steeple and one temple with one inner sanctum in it, right? Like you, unless,

[34:24] Gwendolyn Wyne: unless you’re in the Salt Lake temple, they’ve just got steeples all over the place. But that’s, that’s kind of a that doesn’t tell us there should be many women to one man that tells us a different story. So,

[34:35] Michelle: right? And it’s just, it’s more, it’s not like, well, there are several different celestial rooms in a temple. There aren’t, you know, but it’s more the symbolism, not that specific at each temple and one thing. So when I was reading, I just reread your articles again and oh, I hope people will read that because it just, it is such be you express yourself so beautifully, your symbols and your imagery and your ideas are just exquisite and I was reading through one of them. It wasn’t what you weren’t writing about it, but you were talking about Adam and Eve. And so, um so I wanna, and I, I don’t want to take over, sorry, I just kind of want to bounce ideas back and forth because this is what I was saying about in this um opportunity to talk is that we can learn more. Do you know what I mean? It’s I love engaging so that we can actually learn more that we both are bringing to it, right? And so, and so I want to be able to do that. But I was thinking about creation. I thought a lot about the order of creation because Paul says man was created first. Therefore, woman is inferior.

[35:33] Gwendolyn Wyne: And

[35:34] Michelle: it’s ridiculous too because creation in general goes in order from sort of less intelligent to like, like it’s first rocks, then plants, then animals, then man. And if you want to go in, if you want to claim order is important, well, woman comes next. So, you know, like

[35:51] Gwendolyn Wyne: monkeys, men, women, so they don’t want, they don’t want to use that as their argument. They don’t.

[35:56] Michelle: So it doesn’t feel like order should be considered important in terms of greatness. But when I was reading your article kind of talking, well, another thing I’ve thought about, I’ve had people, um you know, I think it’s easy to be, to be troubled about in Matthew where it says and in that day w want to them that are with child or that get suck in those days. And it sounds like what you’re like picking on the nursing mothers and the pregnant women. And my real for that. So I’m, I’m these all come together. But my realization for that was, that is again, sort of like that interstate. Some of the temple that is the pinnacle of society, all of society is established so that a woman can bear and nurture Children in a protected safe way, right? Like we need all of these structures to be in place so that women and Children so that the race can be perpetuated in the most productive, positive way to move things forward.

[36:49] Gwendolyn Wyne: And of course, this is a major blessing for men. I mean, this does not leave them like they will be, they will be their happiest when their wife is very happy and and fulfilling, they will fulfill each other.

[37:00] Michelle: I think that most men would agree that their goal is to keep their wife and Children safe and provided for it. Like a man doesn’t want to see his home run down and his wife, right? Like a man like I know this is speaking very traditionally. But again, I’m a traditional woman, right? I think that there is room to, it’s not that everyone has to support these ideas, but this is where we came from and there is still beauty and value in the traditional, right? Not obviously, you and I are both vocal, smart, articulate women who believe that we can contribute things into this world in addition to motherhood, right? It’s not so so. But anyway, I, I was like, oh, that verse in Matthew to me that says, well want to them that gives sex with a child. Mean when society is broken, that element of society that is most protected by a well structured society loses that protection. And it’s true when, when things go to chaos, it is the pregnant women and nursing women with babies that are the most vulnerable, they’re the most vulnerable. That’s the point they require the most protection. I know as a like a nine month pregnant mom, you know, I’m not gonna be defending myself.

[38:10] Gwendolyn Wyne: Well, I don’t even go to Costco while I’m pregnant. You need

[38:14] Michelle: protection with their carts, right? So anyway, so bringing kind of that understanding back to the story of creation. I all of a sudden we were driving back home last night when I had this realization, I made my husband turn off his audio book. It was like funny. We were on a three hour drive. It’s like, ok, listen to this, you know, but all of a sudden I was like creation, we could look at it and this is my new understanding of it in order of sort of the structure that was necessary to be established. To provide for the next level. Like there can’t be, there can’t be plants until there’s light and dark and earth and water. Right? And there can’t be animals until there’s plants. And then once there are plants and animals, there can be man. Right? And there has to be a man for there to be. I, I mean, it’s not in order of greatness but like a woman alone in the wilderness, right? Like a woman needs a man to be able to protect and provide and defend it. This is, I know the feminists are gonna be coming

[39:09] Gwendolyn Wyne: after you, Michelle, they’re coming after you.

[39:12] Michelle: This is how it came to me, right? And then so it kind of is in that, that that same order of structuring and enabling because when this structure is created, then there can be a woman and creation wasn’t finished at that point because there needed to be a child, there needed to be pregnancy to get the purpose of creation was to enable pregnancy and child bearing period, right? That is the purpose of that entire creation story. And so anyway, that was a long way of going about it, but it just I loved how to be able to think about these things in useful ways.

[39:46] Gwendolyn Wyne: So when you’re when you’re talking about the the the kind of the purpose of of it being a child, right? I’ve started to see pregnancy and childbirth and and these these nurturing years as absolutely. Um, as ordinances even.

[40:02] Michelle: Yeah, I love how you, yeah, go ahead and talk about that because even Christ uses that language. It’s so like Jesus and mothers I have known forever are like, they are engaged in the same work. They are absolute partners. There has to be the first part for there to be the second part. Yes. Yes.

[40:19] Gwendolyn Wyne: So there’s this, there’s this kind of overall purpose. Like we’re not just supposed to come here and be tested. Like we’re actually supposed to be growing and growing to be more like God. And so women become the first ones to really partner with God. Like every single one of us, everyone on earth was delivered from a court of bondage through the shedding of another’s blood. It’s like that’s not accidental. Symbolism, right? No, that means something. We’re supposed to learn something from that. And so like, as we participate in that process and you don’t have to have Children to do it like you participated because you were delivered, right? Like we were delivered and we weren’t delivered because of anything. We did. Like we didn’t do anything to discern it. Yeah, we didn’t earn it on any level, right? We were simply delivered out of love and reframing the way that I think about God in that way. And I’m just like, I don’t have to do anything, right? Like in my relationship, Eddie President Ken, I was like, I don’t have to do anything. Right. God loves me and I’m ok. So I don’t just do my

[41:26] Michelle: anything you don’t have to earn or deserve it. It is.

[41:29] Gwendolyn Wyne: And I even saw Sister Holland recently passed away and I saw some little clip video of her saying something about, oh, you know, if I could go back in time and change one thing, it would be, I would, I, I used to just spin my wheels and try so hard and think I had to do everything and earn, earn God’s love. And I, I realized, you know, eventually she realized I didn’t. And I was like she has had that baptism of fire and the Holy ghost because when you have that, you’re like, God loves everybody. We’re all fine. At the same time, we’ve got some changes to make. You know, it’s like that.

[42:08] Michelle: Yeah, I think we become motivated out of a desire to help like

[42:12] Gwendolyn Wyne: no fear, no fear.

[42:14] Michelle: God love us so much and we love him because he first loved us, right? And when you feel that overwhelming love of God that you are first enabled to, you love God with all your heart, heart might mind and strength. And then you have the desire to say God, thank you for taking care of everything. I get wrong. How can I help you?

[42:33] Gwendolyn Wyne: I get everything

[42:35] Michelle: right.

[42:40] Gwendolyn Wyne: Yeah. One of my favorite comments. So, so I started a youtube channel actually let me do that quick. Story because so I, I was writing, I’m going way out. We’re just swinging, right? I’m swinging back and forth. You just reminded me of this. OK, you just reminded me of this. So I was writing about polygamy, I wrote this thing about polygamy that was like witnesses that it’s temporal right? And I, and I felt really that it was, you know, that was kind of where I was

[43:05] Michelle: what you mean by temporal right, kind of a necessary government

[43:08] Gwendolyn Wyne: necessary, not necessary just like it happens on this earth. Yes, but it’s not happening, it’s not happening. It’s not what you mean. It’s not eternal, it’s not happening after this life. And I kind of after Carolyn Pearson’s book um that, you know, when I started to see these witnesses, I really was like, oh it was just so clear. It was like God says this right, like this is from God because people can’t change bodies in such a way as to, you know, I can misunderstand the message. But I was like, no, this is from God. Men are not, you know, many women don’t go with one man like it’s supposed to be 1 to 1. So I, I placed my faith that way and I started to feel so much light, just a lot of light in a place where I had never felt light, right? Like public gaming was always my just worst fear and the worst, I mean, it was just darkness always. And once I started to be like, wait a minute, I don’t think it’s, I don’t think it happens after this life. It was like sunshine started coming in. Right. Ok. So much so that I think it was 2017 where family Thanksgiving dinner and I’m like, I have an announcement and everyone thinks it’s a baby. And I’m like, no, no, no, it’s not a baby if I die young or early or whatever. Nate is my husband’s Nate and he’s the best. He’s the best. Um Nate is welcome to get remarried in the temple. And everyone’s like, what? Because my family knows me. They’re like, and I was like, because it’s not gonna be happening. Like I don’t know how right. We just say God will work it out and I’m like, God will work it out so that there’s no polygamy happening. Like I don’t know

[44:47] Michelle: how that I, I don’t know how I’m not bothered. You’re like, God will work it out. So it’s not happening.

[44:54] Gwendolyn Wyne: It’s not happening. I was like, I know it’s not happening and I know that no one else can you know, see why I know that. But I know it. Like I knew it because the spirit had given me so much light like the fruits of the spirit, right? I was enjoying the fruits of the spirit and I’m like great remarry. So my kids have a mother, wonderful, awesome. It’s not gonna be my problem because that’s just not how it’s gonna work. I know that. And so I was just happy, I was like, ho my worst fear is just not there anymore. And so I just happily lived, but it was in 2020 when I started to feel like I was supposed to be doing something and, like, not have a child. So I started to just free. Right. And then polygamy emerged and I was like, ok, I guess, I guess it would be helpful. Like if, if we as women in the church were able to set aside our fear of polygamy or whatever, like whatever we want to call it. If we were able to just set it aside, then we could see who we are, right. We could see like we’re actually partners, but we can’t see ourselves as partners if we’re like also presided over. Like that’s just, I’m

[45:59] Michelle: sorry. Right. It blocks so that those false traditions block so much light and knowledge and truth. Absolutely.

[46:07] Gwendolyn Wyne: And I mean, just like thinking of the proclamation, the family proclamation, like we, you know, we would refer to it and we, you know, we have it up in our house and we would refer to it. But it was when I had Children that I was like, just a minute, you don’t, you don’t preside over when I give birth like you don’t, you don’t preside over when I nurse our babies. So you don’t preside in a family. Like it was just like that’s not something’s wrong here. Like it’s not changing.

[46:30] Michelle: As I said before. I had to change the wording for myself. And this felt so much more inspired to me to say as equal partners, husband and wife preside over their families in love that all of a sudden fixed it for me. I was like fixed. We as equal partners preside together. Yeah. OK. How can you have equal partners? Where one presides over the other?

[46:51] Gwendolyn Wyne: It doesn’t. And I’ve started to see it as the way I understand it. And so, so I was starting to write that, but the polygamy thing like it just kind of all of a sudden I saw this sort of different way of what we’re talking about. And I was like, you know what, I’m gonna write this and that was the matriarchal order and the ordinances of the flesh and the ma cheeking in the matrimonial order. So I was like, I’m just gonna write this. And so, so, so this, I see it as we have an interdependent stewardship with stewardship, right? I’m presiding over physics and he’s presiding over spiritual, but we have to help each other as equal partners, right? Because there is a, a balance of power and authority and some of my gifts, maybe I have some spiritual gifts, but he has that spiritual authority and he has some physical, right? My husband is stronger than me. But I still am the one that actually bears the Children, right? So I have that authority to give life. And there’s something very empowering about having your own Children because you realize like I just made a person, right? So it’s hard to, to look at other men who’s like, well, a woman made you and a woman made you and to say, yeah, you’re over me. It’s like no, I I made, I made you, you

[47:59] Michelle: came from a woman you came through, you came into this world. A woman literally gave you life

[48:05] Gwendolyn Wyne: and it doesn’t make me better. But I’m definitely not below.

[48:09] Michelle: It’s just, it’s kind of like what um Julie Hanks and I talked about like, it’s just integral. It’s just there is no hierarchy. It’s just all interwoven on in this beautiful tapestry of, of um cooper operation without any hierarchy.

[48:25] Gwendolyn Wyne: Hierarchy is the fallen world. Yes. It’s a really fallen world type of situation and it doesn’t serve us well. And it also doesn’t create Zion, right? Zion’s one heart and one mind and like that’s the opposite of this.

[48:40] Michelle: Yes, I just barely re listens to your um to your podcast on E I was listening to that on the City of Phoenix and it’s beautiful. People should listen to that one. I mean, you know, I think it’s great to get but, but this, that’s exactly what I’ve been trying to get. Like I did an episode on Zion, I mean, yeah, polygamy versus Zion. It’s just like that one. Like we’re never gonna get there this way

[49:02] Gwendolyn Wyne: is not the path. No,

[49:04] Michelle: it requires an entire shift in mindset to seeing, truly seeing one another with, through the eyes of God, with love. Not like like this, the hierarchy requires you to see others as instruments in your right. That can be useful to you in some way

[49:24] Gwendolyn Wyne: or better than you and you need to defer to them

[49:28] Michelle: people do or you need to get, you know, you need to get something from them in one way or another. Either they can elevate you or you can use them to elevate yourself. That is not a God’s that, that will never lead us to become a Zion people at

[49:42] Gwendolyn Wyne: all. No. And just to be clear and I know you feel this way too. I’m not talking about church cos I think it’s 100% appropriate to have a church calling that gives you responsibility over a situation, right? But that doesn’t, that’s not like light and truth is not bound by the church, right? We can’t like box God in to our temple and be like, and that’s the limit of God. It’s like, no,

[50:05] Michelle: no. Yeah. Well, oh, so, so that’s a good thing to go to because I think in any way we, we can want to put people on pedestals, right? And so yeah,

[50:13] Gwendolyn Wyne: it’s comfortable for us because then we can look up to people and not have to connect to God

[50:18] Michelle: ourselves. It is the natural man. It is the natural man to want to be on pedestals and want to put others on pedestals, right? We want, we have that I wanna meet that celebrity or the, you know, because I’ll feel important by connecting with them. And then if I can be on a pedestal, I can feel important. It’s that need to feel important, which is an indication if we’re ever feeling that it’s an indication to us that we are lacking the love of God. In that moment, the love of God is the cure for that. When we feel the love of God, it takes that away, you know. And so I think that even as I like, it’s not saying there’s not room for stewardship and authority as a parent, I have a over my Children. But do I do that in a main in a means that serves me or serves them? Do I see myself as a servant to them? But not, not, not to worry myself, but to is my life dedicated to helping them be the very best people they can be or am I kind of like I want to get what I can from them, right? I want them to see me. And so I think the same is in any calling and we have the choice to say, hey bishop, you thank you for accepting that calling. Can I help. Right. We’ll be like, oh, I want the bishop to notice me. So I’ll get a big important point too. Right. You know, there’s just a different way of approaching

[51:30] Gwendolyn Wyne: it or I don’t know anybody who does that around here

[51:35] Michelle: maybe. But, but also just the perspective of um of being able to say, oh, that calling does not feel right to me. I’m, I’m not gonna be able to accept that one. right? Or like anyway, it’s just we can have structure. It’s just the difference between approaching it as hierarchy. We can, we can be thankful that the bishop is serving and try to do what we can to help him without thinking he’s more important and he’s more righteous and he’s more special, right? And we’re

[52:03] Gwendolyn Wyne: all here to help each other, right? That’s what the book of Mormon tells us that all are like, absolutely.

[52:09] Michelle: Yeah. And we have different callings, different roles, different roles in every way. But yeah, the the woman that did your laundry is no less value. I mean, like, I maybe

[52:21] Gwendolyn Wyne: more important than

[52:23] Michelle: like in my world. He’s like, oh, I know your name. I know like you seem important to me. I’m like, oh, you want to get to know the woman that like cleans my house. That’s where, that’s where God

[52:33] Gwendolyn Wyne: is. That’s where God is. I agree. Well, so when I started, when I saw this other way of thinking about um not hierarchy, but like stewardship, right? I was just like, it honestly was very disorienting to me because I thought I was like this and then everything went sideways, right. But I feel like, actually I had been like this and everything straightened out because all of a sudden I was like, oh, women and men have like foundation, equal um stewardship in the plan and, and that extends all the way, right? All the way up to the throne.

[53:12] Michelle: Yes, absolutely.

[53:14] Gwendolyn Wyne: And so when we, when we, so speaking about this like ordinances of the flesh concept that we were talking about, you can see whatever priest ordinances you wanna name, you can find a match in our physical bodies and what we receive from women or our mothers. And that just like when I started to see that it just blew my mind because I knew right? Birth and baptism are are comparable and the savior says that himself, right? He talks about with Nicodemus, you must, you must be born again. And it’s like, ok, so that means you also must be born, right? And we know that because our theology is that you have to have a body, but we don’t like you have to have a body and it’s like you also have to get your body from a woman. Like that’s no

[53:58] Michelle: one can be born again unless they’re first born. Is what I say, right? That partnership there is.

[54:05] Gwendolyn Wyne: Yeah. And we’re uncomfortable, I think calling using the language of ordinance. But I think, well, if you look at the definition of ordinance, it’s a formal act. Oh, boy, I can’t remember but it’s a formal act that, that um whatever it is, it ties you to God or it’s something that’s formal and it’s,

[54:22] Michelle: yeah, well, in a way, in a, in a way really the um gospel ordinances which I think are all symbolic. It’s all symbolic to describe things that happen spiritually. So I, as I said, spiritual ordinances, right are all shadows and representations of the pre existing physical ordinances, right? You are first born in water and blood and the spirit for you are reborn. Being reborn is an echo of the previous like like the, the naval mark. I think you talk about that like you have the naval mark, which is a sign of our being nurtured by our mother.

[55:00] Gwendolyn Wyne: It’s a token, right? It’s a physical, it’s a physical to

[55:04] Michelle: in the body. So any naval mark we add after that is an echo is a reverberation of that preexist physical mark. And one of my favorite things you talk about is the one gospel that has never been removed from the earth. Is this physical, this woman’s gospel of the flesh, this physical gospel that gives us the pre existing symbols and ordinances that then can be echoed and further enlightened by the further spiritual ordinances. Like that’s so profound.

[55:34] Gwendolyn Wyne: We under we under appreciate the book of Moses because there’s some amazing stuff in there. And that’s one of the things that I just had never. And when I tried to figure out what do people say about this? People just don’t say much. There’s this verse, oh, it’s in, it’s in the paper, but there’s this verse that basically says, um, that these, this gospel was, was pronounced to be on the earth until the end thereof. And how, like, that’s weird because we know there’s been apostasy. So what is the only gospel that’s been on the earth from the beginning of, you know, from Adam, because it says Adam received all these things by ordinance and this gospel was preached and declared to be on the earth until the end thereof. And I was like, that’s not, that’s not what we’re talking. That’s not baptism. That’s something else because it hasn’t been on the earth. And so that’s when I was like, oh, it’s what we do. It’s our, it’s the gospel that women administer. Yeah. And that also is one of those things that we just, we as members of the church, I think sometimes people um in their process of leaving, they’re like we say, you know, you have to do these things. But like the whole entire world in the history of time has had such a tiny percentage of people who have known about like baptism and these specific ordinances through this specific authority. And so like, what’s the what that doesn’t make sense if there’s a loving God and it’s like, guess what? We all every received the ordinances that symbolize Christ, right? Like birth is a symbol of what Christ did for us. And then you think about receiving the holy ghost and it’s like, well, who gives us the light of Christ that we say every person on earth receives? It’s just like, yeah, they receive it from their mothers because they receive it through touch, right? And we if Children

[57:19] Michelle: are the laying out of hands and you how a mother lays her hand like right? It’s that touch that brings them to no love. To know the embrace, the loving embrace of God is an echo of the loving embrace of a mother. And

[57:34] Gwendolyn Wyne: if Children aren’t touched, they die, they die, they have to touch a child or they die. It’s not an

[57:40] Michelle: option and and then to be nurtured with breast milk, which is so symbolic of so, but I think

[57:48] Gwendolyn Wyne: that that’s our parallel to, I don’t know if I wrote that. I think as I’ve worked it out, I’m like, you know what? I think that lactation and breastfeeding that that’s the parallel to the sacrament, right? Because you ingest, you ingest something that gives you power, right? And it and it connects you and you have to receive it right? Like you have to choose to receive it. If a baby doesn’t try to nurse, then hes gonna die right. It’s a dance.

[58:10] Michelle: And I do think that’s also like I, there, there’s, there’s more I want to understand about like our, our eternal idea of mother when I say eternal, I mean, from this earth, we’ve always talked about mother earth, right in a way as we are nursed by our mother, we are nursed and nurtured by the earth for all of our stuff, everything. And there is some beautiful power to that that I want to understand better as well.

[58:34] Gwendolyn Wyne: Like that’s something I’ve been, I’ve been work. I I said it aside because polygamy came up because I was like, why don’t, why can’t we see? Like why can’t we see it? And then at some point I realized, oh, it’s polygamy like that is a full wall in front of us. We cannot see who women are if we, if we think that they’re these like the

[58:58] Michelle: heroes,

[58:59] Gwendolyn Wyne: millions, right? So I was working on a mother earth thing but then I was like, hang on now and then you, this is what you had that one episode where people had been emailing your steak president and you were just like, I’m not trying to and I was like, I’m sorry, I, I am not leaving her by herself to do this. Like I’m just, I’m, I’m jumping in. I do not want to do youtube. I have braces. Like when I got my braces, people in L A were like drinking hand sanitizer duct taping our faces. No one was gonna see it. Right? And then all of a sudden I put my face on youtube. So that was, that was an act of love for you because I was like, Michelle is not gonna be all alone. Like you’ve got a couple of state presidents to email now so

[59:43] Michelle: easy, isn’t it? I basically, I have said like my superpower is being able to just step in the biggest pile of whatever. And like that is the superpower to have people calling for my excommunication and be like the number one punching bag of some of the most prominent anti mormons. Like

[1:00:00] Gwendolyn Wyne: and have people say you’re why I’m staying, it’s just like, ok, wow,

[1:00:04] Michelle: I’m super confused. So, so thank you for jumping into the frame and I do think the more ideas, the more the more brains working on these things, you know, because

[1:00:15] Gwendolyn Wyne: nobody knows all of it. Like we’re none of us are like, oh, I’ve got the whole solution. It’s just like we just bring as much as we can, right? Because God’s inspiring all of us

[1:00:24] Michelle: and it really is each of us interacting with one another that makes us, makes us learn more always. That’s how, that’s why we’re designed to learn. They did gather together off to discuss the good work of God, right? That’s how it’s supposed to be. And so back to these ideas of the, the symbolism that I guess I would say the gospel of marriage and, and procreation like that. I

[1:00:46] Gwendolyn Wyne: mean, we can call it. Yes. I think actually it could be called priestess. I know that makes people uncomfortable. But it’s like, well, you know, Joseph Smith did talk about making a kingdom of priests and priestesses. And it, and, and also when we, when we read about priesthood, right? President Nelson was like, please study priesthood. And I, when he gives counsel, I think, yeah, I’m gonna, I’m gonna do that and it, it bears good fruit in my life. So, so as he said to study priesthood, I was doing that and it just jumped off right at me right away. I was like, oh, I have priesthood, right? Because it’s not priesthood isn’t just an authority, it’s a power, right? And so if you just kind of like, if you want to name things, I think priesthood is a good name for the authority that women have and the power that’s our physical power, right? It’s our physical power is priests so that everybody walks around this world with, right? And some of us are, are hindered because they haven’t been nurtured very well as Children and that can, that can harm people. Um But when we read about priesthood continuously in the scriptures, it talks about priesthood as being after the order of the Son of God. And that was something where I was like after the order. So priesthood isn’t the order of, of the Son of God. And I was like, well, what is the order of the Son of God? That’s an echo. And it was one day while I was in the temple. It just right there. Somebody just yelled it out. I mean, it was, it was just being said, right? But I heard it, I was like the holy order of matrimony that the order of God because it’s this equal balance of priesthood and priestess hood. And so I think that the word we’re looking for in this equal partnership is matrimony, right? The matrimonial order is that a man and a woman partnered and it’s not a right to bring in and yeah,

[1:02:40] Michelle: OK. And I, we should just give the caveat. So people that are feeling like I always, you know that there are people that are single or people that aren’t parents. And so just that’s always just know that you always have our hearts. We’re not trying to minimize. And it’s so difficult to talk about any of these things because there are true orders that don’t work for anybody, right? And I mean, they don’t work for everybody. It’s not, they do work for everybody. Everybody was born through this order. But I learn, you don’t all need to carry it out to be participating in it and recipients of it and no one’s less valid or more valid. But at the same time, we can’t set aside the patterns and the teachings of God. Right? Like, like, hopefully we can heal ourselves enough to, you know, like I’ve had to learn to, um, I, um, it was just, oh, see, sorry, I’m still kind of a mess but it was just my, um, little 13th, um, baby’s birthday and I got a birth announcement of a little girl born on her birthday that is a healthy, beautiful little girl. You know, and I have to heal to the point that I can be genuinely happy for my friends that had a baby rather than let my pain make it. So I can’t be happy for them. Right? So I unders we all need to go through that process. So anyway, I just want, it

[1:03:55] Gwendolyn Wyne: takes, it takes time and I mean, yeah, like it’s legitimate to have those feelings. And when I say matrimonial order and I think it, I my single girlfriends, I’m like, yeah, they’re a part of it because it means that they’re equal. This doesn’t mean a husband and wife are over, over like others. It means that women have been, you know, brought up to where men are and we see each other’s gifts and talents and stewardship as fundamentally equal. Um

[1:04:30] Michelle: Yes, it’s helping us understand more who we are not roping us into what we have to do or what we have to be. That’s that. So, and,

[1:04:38] Gwendolyn Wyne: and I think also we, we, our traditions have given us a scarcity mindset where we think, well, there aren’t gonna be, there’s gotta be seven women for every man and it’s just like, that’s not God. Jesus is like a, a couple loaves, a couple of fishes and loaves and ta, I mean, perpetual abundance. God is abundant. We don’t have to worry or like game the system and be like, you know, I know we were supposed to be 1 to 1 but if we don’t do it, then this is like, no, no, God’s gonna handle that. Like we’re gonna be fine. Got

[1:05:11] Michelle: it. Yeah. And also the scarcity mindset of thinking if I’m not this, I’m less than or if I have pain in these days and like the like no, the abundance mindset of if I love God and do what I am inspired to do in this life, things are gonna rock, things are awesome. So that like

[1:05:29] Gwendolyn Wyne: and God needs people in all kinds of situations, right? Like I, I thought just personally, right, I had always assumed that if you like were willing to have more babies, like if you ask God’s gonna say yes, but that’s just always what happens. So, right. So I was personally very surprised that God was like, no, don’t have any more babies to someone who is willing and it really, it really changed the whole way. I was like, you know what? And however people live their lives, I’m gonna just give them space because maybe this person maybe they being single or having one child or any of these different configurations are actually what God wants for them in this life and that they’re gonna be happiest in that situation and they shouldn’t try to force something that’s, that’s not what God wants. It doesn’t feel right to their heart. So I just give so much space for people and when I talk about matrimonial order, this is not an exclusive thing. It’s, it’s actually inclusive that, right? We’re um I know that we’re kind of at a time when we’re like, no, there’s multiple genders. But if you know, if you want to say there’s men and there’s women, then that brings every everyone gets brought in.

[1:06:36] Michelle: Yeah. OK. And, and it goes back to the point of everybody was born through this, right? This is how we receive life. And so yeah,

[1:06:45] Gwendolyn Wyne: we can’t deny that. And when we deny, when we deny that, then we really have confusion and, and it’s very sad.

[1:06:52] Michelle: Yeah, I think so. And in a way, you know, I mean, I like again, avoiding judging people and being sympathetic to everyone I think is wonderful. At the same time asserting truth. There are men and there are women and that teaches us internal internal truth. And in a way, the more we learn about how essential that is, the less likely we are to be deceived by these by blendings by, you know, because in like I I in some ways think that our kids that are struggling with transgender issues are victims of this confusion. They’re not, we have

[1:07:25] Gwendolyn Wyne: a lot of confusion. Yeah. And I do feel sad that in the church, sorry, go ahead.

[1:07:30] Michelle: Well, I just, I feel like rather than looking at people that are in this transgender movement as the perpetrators, we need to see them as the victims of it. That’s like maybe they wouldn’t like that either. But that’s like my heart goes out to people that are truly suffering through all of this confusion that has been intentionally sown by the enemy of our souls, right? Yeah,

[1:07:49] Gwendolyn Wyne: I feel like my priority has because I live in L A and there’s just so much right? There’s just so many different things. And so for me, it’s been helpful personally to just let people and I know you do too just to let people be and let them live their lives. But I think looking at my own house like like my own house, I can’t, I don’t feel comfortable going out and telling other people

[1:08:13] Michelle: what you believe people and the way God in us to. But for me, it’s like in the city surrounded by polygamous show and so many polygamists and like, I’m like, I’m sitting there praying like Lord, what do you want me to do? Because of course, I want to say go watch 100 and 32. But like my heart is breaking all these girls and, you know, but I just like, smiled at them and tried to say hi and, you know, like, it’s just the same thing. It’s like how, how we try to show up with, with everybody and, and follow the Lord because some people may be ready to hear something. But if I go preaching or start judging, that’s not any good for anybody.

[1:09:00] Gwendolyn Wyne: And like

[1:09:02] Michelle: with everything that takes, that detracts from what God established. You know, our job is to love and to believe truth.

[1:09:11] Gwendolyn Wyne: And I do feel like we have to clean up the mess in our own house first. Like that would be, will be best served because I personally feel very called to um speak on a secular level about the autonomy of women, young women, especially, right? Like that, I think that that polygamy and, and, and then on the other side, um some of the sexual things that are promoted in society harm girls and women’s sexuality so much. And I think that God made us to enjoy it, to love it. And I want them to be able to love that and the way society is, is serving their sexual is, is terrible and polygamy is part of that. So it’s like I wanna go outside and talk about that, but I can’t do that with this mess that we have. Like I need to make my own personal views. No, we don’t have to change it on an institutional level, but I can’t go out secular and have someone say, well, how can you say that? Look at what your own church believes? It’s like, no, no, I am on record. Not only do I not believe it, but I will show you through scripture why this is not of God. And most importantly, I want my daughters to know it. Right. I’ve got a daughter who just turned 12. Nobody is ever going to tell her that she could be one of many wives and blah, blah, blah. No way, no way. Right. She will know nothing more than her mom knew, right? Her mom knew and her mom showed why this is not her destiny.

[1:10:36] Michelle: Yeah, I love and you know what I love that. My sons know it as much as my daughters too because so easy to fall into the traps of like, like men that have said they thought, well, maybe one day I’ll have a wife who will, you know, love me or will be, this will be this like a turn way to yourself or men who do to their, the detriment of their own ss begin to exercise unrighteous Dominion or start to put themselves because that’s what they’re taught, right? It discerns everybody. So to be able to have this mindset of understanding the beauty of this equality, this intermingling and equality where men and women are both so precious in the sight of God, I think is, it’s just, it fills your soul with light rather than darkness like you described. So it will change

[1:11:28] Gwendolyn Wyne: our marriages. It will. Because when I, even though my husband knew my pain and would never have, um, like treaded on that and he actually proposed a plan before we got engaged. So I was like, I can’t, like, I can’t get engaged. I can’t marry someone knowing that this could happen to me. Like, I don’t know how you’re gonna solve this, but like, I can’t do that. Like I can’t give myself to someone. Um, and I was just like, good luck, you know,

[1:11:53] Michelle: because

[1:11:53] Gwendolyn Wyne: I know you’ll say it right. But that doesn’t mean that you won’t just change your mind. And so he ended up, he thought about it and he was like, ok, I mean, this is really personal and so if you’re a latter, they say this, this sort of thing makes sense. Um, to us, right? And he’s like, ok, how about this? You know, I don’t wanna get remarried like I wanna be with you. But if you died, how about I wouldn’t, you know, date or get remarried unless you came to me in a dream and told me that you wanted me to do that. And I was like,

[1:12:23] Michelle: yeah, yeah. Yeah, that’ll,

[1:12:25] Gwendolyn Wyne: that’ll work. So, like I felt personally secure, you know, that that wasn’t gonna accidentally be my future. But then when I redirected my faith toward what God says about marriage. Right. All of a sudden my marriage was, like, way better, way better because I was like, I’m, it. Right. Like, that’s a hand and I felt there’s a part of women where, where sometimes we can say like, well, maybe, you know, he’ll end up with someone else, he’ll love her more. And so we keep some emotional distance from our husbands because we’re like, well, he might like someone else better. Maybe, you know, I won’t have to deal with this or whatever. But if you’re like, I’m it and you’re like, I’m it. So we better deal with these things and I am gonna open my heart and all of it’s messy and, and just all of it like you’ll just, you can know it all right because I’m in it for you. So there’s just like it changes everything, it changes sexuality together, all for the better, all of it.

[1:13:23] Michelle: It’s so true making it so that this one marriage we have is all we have ideally, right? So make it the best, make it the very best we can, right? And, but you talk about, I mean, any thoughts of competitiveness or insecurity in bed, what a way to ruin a genuine sex life, right? And, and even if like if the women feel like they need to perform, to outcompete each other, that is not good for them. There is no real bonding that takes place there. It’s just, it destroys everything So instead, like polygamy turned you away from marriage in profound ways, turned you away from the other sex, turned you away from God. Whereas this, this matrimonial order, the holy matrimonial order turned you toward each other and to God in this beautiful found way that is the ideal, not claiming it’s easy, right? Like, certainly marriage is not easy. It’s

[1:14:20] Gwendolyn Wyne: not easy to become one with someone, not at all.

[1:14:22] Michelle: Yeah. But to be able to be turned toward each other working on that is so, so beautiful and so different. And so, yeah, it’s

[1:14:31] Gwendolyn Wyne: worth the wrestle. It’s worth it. It’s worth it to. I just think our marriages would be so blessed if we would hark to the voices of women, right? I was just reading in the, in the resurrection story that Christ appears to the women, which I think is another thing we’re like so interesting when he has his renewed body, women are the ones, right? That’s one more, one more little thing where you’re like, ok, so there’s some authority.

[1:14:54] Michelle: The first, the first prophets of the resurrection. They were the first ones and

[1:14:59] Gwendolyn Wyne: he told them to go witness and they did and then they were like uh idol tales. And then when Jesus sees them, he’s like, you fools. So when will we believe the witnesses have win?

[1:15:12] Michelle: And I maybe I’ve mentioned this before. And so if I have remind me and um but, but still today, like, like when I was expecting my 13th who just had her birthday. Um, it was so hard because I didn’t know if she would be able to be born alive. Um, because with

[1:15:27] Gwendolyn Wyne: her 12 had, had passed, had

[1:15:30] Michelle: passed away and I knew her family that they were meant to be sisters and wanted to stay together. That was the, um, that was the first thing I learned when I, you know, from they, they came to me together and I knew how much they wanted to be together. And so the thought of, um, well, so our official church stands is if a child is stillborn, they, what they say is we don’t know, we don’t know if that child is yours. A stillborn child. And I, I went through that was part of my rage like when I was again going to leave the church because I was like, I know any mother who has had a stillborn nose. It’s not that we

[1:16:09] Gwendolyn Wyne: have even a miscarriage, even a miscarriage, you

[1:16:10] Michelle: know. Right. It’s not that, it’s not that we don’t like I, my daughter has come to me multiple times. I know who she is and I know that she’s mine. And so it’s not that we don’t know, it’s that you won’t listen to the people who are, who have the stewardship to receive that revelation, to receive that truth. So you can say we don’t know and it’s a lie. It’s not true. We know you just won’t listen to us. You know, like we need to elevate the voices of women. We need to give the um women the, the a I mean, anyway, that like we are so off balance. I like how you did it. You’re so like, I, I don’t mean to get heated but I can’t tell you not to. But I, because I, that was part of my, I am not iii I can’t describe how much these two girls wanted to stay together. And that was part of my understanding that, you know, and so to know that on our church records, we might have my 12th and not my 13th was not acceptable. I was like, I will, I will take our records off of the church rather than that not be the reality. I will not of my family that does not include both of my little girls, you know. And so yeah. Right. And, and that was, I mean, she was born alive. That was the hope I was given to be able to pray for. So we got to have her for two hours and it didn’t, it wasn’t the problem, but it did again awaken me to a whole other area where it’s like you need women, you need women’s revelation, you need women’s voices, you need the priestesses. And if you don’t have them, you don’t have the true gospel. Like we don’t have them. We’re not, we don’t have what we need for Zion until this gets fixed, right? Until this, until we bring it more into the fulfill, um, the full alignment with what God has given us. I hope I didn’t just speak too strongly that I’m tapping back into that. I

[1:18:02] Gwendolyn Wyne: understand. It’s hard not to. I also had a miscarriage. Um Well, so yours wasn’t? I had a miscarriage. I also had a, um, a spiritual understanding of my child. Um We, like, I ended up having a miscarriage, like on the day that we moved, I started bleeding and I was like, you know, I was praying and I was like, I can’t not move today. Like I, I can’t lay down. I’m so sorry. Like I have no idea what to do. I was just, I, it was, it was with what would have been my fourth, but it ended up not being my fourth. But I felt this impression that this child was so excited to have a body and so excited to be here and it was just super clear and I was like, ok, it’s going to be ok, you know, like I can and I didn’t go crazy. I wasn’t lifting heavy things, but I still had um three small Children. It was like, ah, six. It was like 531, you know, it was very little and we were moving and so I was still in my feet and then I ended up miscarrying and I was like, oh, I don’t understand. I thought it was gonna, I thought this child was excited to come get a body. And I realized that in the process the child had come, had received some portion of that child’s body. Ok? Not that it didn’t. But what’s interesting to me? I think so. So when you talk about like we don’t know but we do know, I think, ok, I try to give and I’m not saying you don’t, I just, I am frankly so relieved to know that polygamy is not what’s happening like that God is not in that, so relieved, right? That I it just took all my anger away. I was like, not mad at all. I was just like, like you’re all wrong. Oh Wonderful. Like I’m just so happy and grateful that I just couldn’t. And I know that there’s still like anger there when we process like it’s part of the grieving process of like what happened to our ancestors and what they believed and all of that. But I just have been kind of living in this gratitude, right? And so one of so when it’s like, I’m in, in some ways, I’m really grateful that they say that the leaders say we don’t know about things because I’m like, good. We should say we don’t know when we don’t know, we should say it because then it does give space for us to say how can we know? You know, like, yeah, I’m I’m glad that they don’t say we know because it’s like they don’t, they don’t. Ok.

[1:20:25] Michelle: Ok. Ok. I read

[1:20:27] Gwendolyn Wyne: that. They say they don’t know. Right. And they say they also say that now about polym too. Right. If you look like we used to say this then that, I mean, we’ve been all over the map but the current thing is like, do not speculate, we don’t know. And President Oakes said that in his trust in the Lord, which I know, but he said it, he said, we don’t know. And I was like, we don’t know.

[1:20:48] Michelle: I know you don’t, it’s kind of, it’s kind of a Yeah, I like that. I think, I think when I have

[1:20:55] Gwendolyn Wyne: space, it gives us space to say, you say you don’t know. And President Nelson has asked women to speak up. Yes. So I will.

[1:21:06] Michelle: OK. OK. I’m gonna take it. I like that. I like how you flipped that because I think what I was hearing was we know that we don’t know as in like, like this answer is not to be had. Do you know what I mean about about like uh still, still

[1:21:22] Gwendolyn Wyne: I think it,

[1:21:24] Michelle: I think it’s better to acknowledge it as them acknowledging and admitting lack of understanding, which means OK, there’s room for more understanding. So we’ll just keep providing that greater understanding until

[1:21:37] Gwendolyn Wyne: right? And we were told no matter what you’re calling to speak up. And so like there are different ways we can take, we can take it as like we’re gonna show them or we could be like, you know what? These are our brothers and they say they don’t know. And we want, we want to be a Zion people and we don’t know what people are thinking in their heart of hearts. Like, who knows? Right. So we’ll just take, take people at their word and we’ll share and assume, assume, you know, assume the best.

[1:22:05] Michelle: OK? I love it. And I have to say that like the way my heart was healed um after this whole experience, like I do feel so thankful to not be angry like I, I do just feel so much gratitude to be called to this, right? Like I was, I

[1:22:25] Gwendolyn Wyne: was so awkward but but I’m also like, first of all, I don’t want to do this. I want to do any of this. But then I’m like if God had said we’ve got to mess down there is unwilling to put themselves out there in a very nice way, I’d be like, yeah. Oh yeah, I want to help with this.

[1:22:42] Michelle: Right. Right. Like it’s not gonna be perfect, but we’re gonna try and yeah, and I do feel that to approach it with love is so much better than with judgment and just like we’re talking about. And so I, I know I got, I, I did struggle through 2020 2021. Those were bad, bad years with what I was so angry at the church. Like, you know, after I, after all of my previous anger and all the things I’ve worked through and I’d always stayed and then to have all of that happen, happen those year I those years I was angry. So, but now I am so thankful to where, you know, I know a lot of people are struggling in every direction. like um am I staying in the church? Am I leaving the church? Am I, you know, people are leaving the church for every reason and I was just thinking about it again the other night and I was like the church has so much power there, so much wealth, there’s so much um organization, there’s so, you know, and to be able to be part of that and trying to help, help it be the best it can and show up the best way I can in it is not bad. You know, I really hope that more and more people will if, if they feel like that’s where they’re supposed to be that they’ll be willing to consider that. It’s a beautiful, beautiful place to be, to be able to do a lot of good, you know, like I’m here until they won’t have me and I hope that never happens.

[1:24:00] Gwendolyn Wyne: Right? I know we’ll see we

[1:24:04] Michelle: have room for hope and you know, and in any case, there’s room for hope because this is God’s plan. It’s that. But even hope for the church. I, I have hope, I hope

[1:24:13] Gwendolyn Wyne: I have a lot of hope too, which is crazy because it’s like, look at like, how, how can you, I mean, it’s a totally insane thing to say. But when you get something from God, you’re like, well, now I know it and if we as a church believe in truth, then we can know it too. Like nothing is impossible.

[1:24:32] Michelle: Absolutely. And that’s what I was explaining to the people. Like, look like president. Well, first of all, we ended polygamy and yes, that was with outside pressure, but we did it right. We did

[1:24:42] Gwendolyn Wyne: it because we were almost destroyed. And what is the, I mean, when people were almost destroyed,

[1:24:51] Michelle: right? But we ended that. But then President M Kimble, if you read the, the article that his son wrote about Edward Kimball wrote about his father’s process, he didn’t do that because of the outside pressure or at least not at all solely or even mainly because of the outside pressure. He did it because he learned more. Right. And so he changed that we’ve changed. We are becoming more transparent, painfully slowly with a lot of backward steps and, you know, it never feels like it’s enough. But the fact that we have gone so far and like you said, I mean, we’ve been everywhere on polygamy. We’ve been everywhere on it. It’s insane how many different stats we’ve had on polygamy. So how is it impossible to hope for one more stats that eventually, which

[1:25:37] Gwendolyn Wyne: is almost like a return to the beginning.

[1:25:40] Michelle: It was never of God. Just like if everybody has always taught, just like the book of Mormon, our book of Scripture teaches and just like

[1:25:48] Gwendolyn Wyne: Rosa Smith and Hiram Smith taught publicly.

[1:25:50] Michelle: Right. Right. All the public teaching, it would, it would help, it would clear up so much confusion and even 132 says not a house of confusion. Right. Well, then we need to get rid of a lot of 132 if we want to get rid of the confusion.

[1:26:05] Gwendolyn Wyne: I mean, that to me is like that may happen in generations. The thing that can happen right now is our hearts like everyone can see it because some of these bureaucratic things are like, I mean, that is turning the ship and that is slow, slow, slow, but you don’t have to wait for, for scriptures to be modified or anything like you can just find out now. But I wanted, I wanted to say something about when we were talking about this like, you know, if women know something and, and, and men don’t or the the leaders of the church don’t

[1:26:37] Michelle: ken. It’s women stewardship. Yes.

[1:26:39] Gwendolyn Wyne: Right. And um and I just like, I’ve become so grateful that I feel like the the leaders don’t want to don’t want to go directions where they’re just like, we don’t know. So I’m like, ok, so something interesting that I noticed is, or that I sort of put together after I started to understand women’s stewardship over the flesh, right? That these are ordinances that we administer that we receive. Like everyone has to receive these from a woman. I noticed that we don’t do um any spiritual ordinances for Children who die before the age of accountability. And I was like, that’s funny because Christ said you had to, you know, like you have to, you must to enter into the Kingdom of God,

[1:27:19] Michelle: you must be baptized,

[1:27:20] Gwendolyn Wyne: must be baptized. So I was like, if he says you must be baptized, but we’re not doing it. Like, why aren’t we doing it? And as I kept thinking, I thought, oh, they’re p but they haven’t received their first ordinances. They have to receive those first ordinances first, like through all the way, right to maturation. So it’s not like you’re just born, you’re just touched, you just are, you know, just like in the temple, you, when you’re a baby, you receive a name, you’re anointed when you’re born and um you’re washed all those things and and you attach like those are the beginning steps of a process, right? Like you don’t just, you’re not just baptized and you’re done, right? And nurturing, right? Men should be providing that nurturing to our spiritual ordinances. And we also nurture Children. And so it takes time. So I think this is the wild speculation. But I think, oh perhaps um this, this next segment the millennium is that time when we get to finish administering these ordinances to all the Children who were not able to receive them to maturation and then they will be able to receive their spiritual ordinances. So there’s just things where it’s like we don’t know these things we can once we start adding in pieces of like, ok, women do have authority over this, we can start to sort of play it out a little bit and, and just, I mean, it’s not essential to understand, but it’s interesting to plug it in and see how it kind of checks off. So it’s like, OK, that would actually, that would actually make sense and that would answer why we don’t

[1:28:51] Michelle: do that. OK. That’s really interesting. And, and what I, what I kind of am gathering also as we’re talking is just this, like how you said that polygamy is this wall that blocks light and truth and greater learning. And so that’s one of these beautiful promises like each of us individually as we let go of that false tradition. And I, I think it’s, I think it is a repentance process, right? Because things change and we do that, that readjustment that realigning, that causes discomfort, the repent is part of the repentance process. But as we are willing to do that, my goodness, the heavens open for light and knowledge to be poured out, we learn so much more. So each of us individually that are willing to step into that realm of receiving so much more truth and understanding that that is a beautiful promise of benefits. So outweigh the cost. And I do think the more of us that do that individually, the more likely and the more quickly it will happen on a grander scale. And when it happens on a grander scale, even if it’s just a bunch of us coming together with that light of knowledge or you don’t like, like who does that is how we become a Zion people. That is how we begin to establish Zion is step out of falsehood into truth. And in that process allowing the heavens to open, to pour out light and truth onto our heads. And so I think that’s not like just all of these discussions that will continue as we all do. This is what I think is

[1:30:21] Gwendolyn Wyne: beautiful. And I think that our, our knowledge and understanding of our mother in heaven is contingent upon us letting go of, right? We have to let go because every you, you can’t find one article written about heavenly mother that allows comments with or video that doesn’t have at least one where people are like well, since we know that many wives is a celestial principle, how do we know we don’t have many? And it was just like stop please stop. It’s,

[1:30:51] Michelle: I just had someone say that to me last month and I was like, I really, really, really. Yeah, it scares

[1:30:57] Gwendolyn Wyne: me. It scares me Michelle because I think I believe that the savior is coming and if he shows up and our hearts are like, maybe we have many heavenly mothers, maybe this is the time that all the virgins who are the young women get to be ours. Like we’re holding

[1:31:14] Michelle: this in heart. Yeah, it

[1:31:16] Gwendolyn Wyne: is gonna be so bad for us like we hold this. We can’t, we we like for our own. So we have to consider consider letting it go because we he’ll show like we won’t be able to make the change that fast. Right? Well, and I think it’s even we can’t change just like

[1:31:34] Michelle: that, right? And we know from a fact just like you said, it’s written in the earth, like the whole history of the earth. We know for a fact that polygamy brings covenant curses. The entire history of the restoration shows that if we don’t even need to go back to David and Solomon, right? And so more

[1:31:53] Gwendolyn Wyne: when you look at the flood, when you look at what was said about the flood, they took them wives as many as they cho or you know, as they, as they chose. It’s

[1:32:01] Michelle: like, and even that like you said, the creation like with Adam and Eve, like they were not polygamist, but it was beginning to be had among the land starting out with late like Satan always gets in there. This is such a beautiful, not what am I saying? Such a brilliant, diabolically brilliant way to destroy what God God has established, right? The commandment of God of Adam and Eve. So it’s always going to show up. But it concerns me because a because as we go into these sort of uncertain, increasingly uncertain times, seems like a lot of people are turning more toward polygamy as it’s like, if they think that Jesus is coming, we need to start living these laws and it’s still there. So, more and more people are turning this way, which means they’re going to bring the covenant curses upon their heads and, and bring more sorrow and despair. It’s kind of like saying, hey, we need to establish utopia, let’s go live communism, the exact same thing like that, right? But no, you’re going the wrong way wrong. You turn, oh, cut back, you know,

[1:33:00] Gwendolyn Wyne: and we came out, we keep thinking like, oh, we, we read polygamy in, as I’ve heard you say before and there’s some vagaries and we’re like, oh, probably because they were polygamists and it’s like, what if you just read it and see what it’s saying? Right? Like it might like we get all hung up on words and it’s like, well, polygamy didn’t even become a word until I think the 16 hundreds. It’s like the scriptures aren’t gonna call it polygamy. They’re gonna have to call it something else

[1:33:25] Michelle: like many wives and concubines or many other possibilities

[1:33:29] Gwendolyn Wyne: would be. Or they just straight out, say as the book of Mormon says that this man who covenanted with Satan took two wives and he’s the first guy to do it and that these abominations and works of darkness began to spread and it’s like, well, I think that’s kind of clear. So we’re calling it an abomination,

[1:33:46] Michelle: right? I think the book of Mormon calls it an abomination and menu is the Con Minds, the book, right? It’s the book of Moses that calls it also an abomination as it to be had. So all of these things, we need to pay attention to them. So qui and tell us what else you’re up to. What, what are you

[1:34:05] Gwendolyn Wyne: saying right now? So I was kind of, I was saying I was starting kind of a mother earth thing, but I was like, no, I think we like, we can’t see anything until we, we let go of polygamy. And so for a while I was thinking, you’re, you’re doing it, you know, like you’ve got it, I’m gonna be, I’m writing, you’re doing this like there’s multiple things happening. But someone had, I wrote, I think when I set that temporal witnesses of playing paper aside and I did my, my priestess hood papers. Um I ran into you in that process, right? And that was when I was like, oh my goodness, she’s on the same path. This is amazing, you know, and it was when I had finished publishing those that I um I just felt like, you know, you, you feel it’s almost like there’s people around you who are like, you’ve got to keep doing things. And so again, I’m like, I’ve got Children. We, we have, you know, my youngest is four. It’s a busy time in my life. Um But I was like, OK, um and I suddenly realized, oh, that witness that, that temporal, that polygamy is temporal paper, I need to pick that back up because by the time I had listened to you, I was like, oh duh, it’s a sin like I had, I had just set it aside and I was like, cool, I don’t have to worry about it in the eternities and I hadn’t gotten into the wrestle of, of the particulars and it was hilarious to me because I had listened to maybe one or two and I was just like, oh, that makes way more sense. And so I felt like I felt pick that paper back up and again, I, I’m comfortable writing like that’s, it takes me forever. It’s blood from a stone, but it’s nice to, to write because I can do it on, on my own pace um and just take forever to find the right word or whatever. But I picked that back up and I felt, I felt given the title. So the title is An Enemy has done this. The Seed and Weeds of polygamy. And I did not make up that title, right. It was just given to me. And so I was given the title and I was like, oh, yeah, that would make more sense. And so I just picked it up and I just started retooling and retooling and, and it came together and I was, I, I knew it couldn’t be published in the faithful journals and I respect that, right. I like honor that there are many journals that want to stay uh aligned with the church. I think that’s wonderful, right? No problems with that. I did send it to them though because I wanted to give them fair warning if that makes sense. Like this is true. Well, just like big picture, this is true. Polygamy is not of God and this is the time, right? Not because of me. Like I just think this is the time, right? I’m the fourth generation for my polygamy and ancestors. And so like the time is now, I don’t know why, but, but God has said it’s now. So I would like for all of my brothers and sisters who are faithful to be able to consider these ideas themselves before this comes out as sideways from the world. Does that make sense? Like if a biography is published about Joseph Smith and that biography says, guess what church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, you guys got deceived right at the start and your whole church is a lie like, you know, brains are gonna break. But if we can go through that process ourselves first and start to think about these things, if that moment comes, then we’ll be secure and we’re like, it’s OK, we’re here like we can’t change the past, we’re here and we can just

[1:37:35] Michelle: move forward that last little bit again because it, because it’s, you said, if we can think about this process ourselves, just back, back,

[1:37:42] Gwendolyn Wyne: back me up a little bit more. Where

[1:37:44] Michelle: was, um you just said, shoot it. I just,

[1:37:48] Gwendolyn Wyne: I’ll get there, I’ll get there. Give me one second. So if, if that does, if that were to happen, if some, some kind of like wild change from the outside were to happen and, and all of a sudden now the world looks at us like you guys are, we totally duped like your whole religion is a lie. That would be very bad, right? We need to consider these things ourselves first and wreck, you know, wrestle with them and try to understand and, and figure out personally like where’s our faith? And we’re here now, right? We cannot change what has happened. Um Though I think that our ancestors are calling to us because they really want us to stop perpetuating their sins and, and unintentional, right? Like they did these things because they were told that it was essential, right? So we’re not serving them,

[1:38:41] Michelle: help them repair that.

[1:38:44] Gwendolyn Wyne: Yes. Like we’re not serving them by perpetuating it. We’re hurting them. Right? Like if I make a mistake, if I like, if I like start my day off with a, with a shot of vodka and then my Children are like, well mom always started her day off with a shot of vodka and then my grandchildren, grandchildren, I’m just like on the other side like please guys, please just stop. Yeah, like we don’t have to hold this up because I did it right. But so if we can go through that process ourselves, that will be much better for us. It’ll be better for the church than if we all of a sudden have the whole world like laughing and pointing at us, which I hope does not happen.

[1:39:17] Michelle: But, but what, which has been, I mean, we have been bleeding members and the anti Mormonism has actually grown profoundly over the last 10 years. And you know,

[1:39:29] Gwendolyn Wyne: because you look at our story and you’re like, this doesn’t make sense,

[1:39:32] Michelle: right? It’s so it’s so unnecessary. I

[1:39:35] Gwendolyn Wyne: call it, I call it a doctor schizophrenic horror story. Like that’s what we’re telling. It’s like this is great. This is not like we have to tell a better story. And Richard Bushman even said that he kind of came under a little bit of like, because he, he was, there was a video of him saying, you know, our narrative isn’t true. And yeah, he was trying to say like, like the way we’ve been told it happened, we’ve tried to make all these pieces fit and they don’t fit. So it’s like, all right, wouldn’t this be better? Isn’t this actually our hope? Anyway. So, so I, so I wrote this paper that, that and I was like, yes, but so I submitted it to all the faithful faithful journals to give them a heads up, right? Because I think that our best minds that are, that are wrestling with all the different church things. Like I think they should know what’s being said, right? And that, that should be presented in an academic format. Um Not surprisingly, they rejected it, which was totally fine. Like I wasn’t expecting it. There are a handful of um like not to say, not faithful, but they just, they’re willing to kind of go left, go, right. You know, there are other journals, right? And I didn’t submit to all of them, but I was surprised that they also weren’t interested. And I thought, oh, that’s funny. Why is that? But I think that it might mean this is my speculation. I think there’s an um when you say that that marriage is between one man and one woman, it takes some other options off the table, right? It’s hard. I’m saying that as someone who has gay friends who I love and I want to be happy and I fully support them living their lives the way that they want to. And I’m happy for them as they’re happy. Like I support what they would like to do with their lives 100%. Um, in terms of theology and doctrine, I think that perhaps they’ll be the ones to help us see where their place is. So I give a lot of room but, but if you’re one of those kind of journals on the fringes and you’re making progress in headway, helping people see like that, we’ll see. The thing is polygamy is the way that all the other relationship types have validity in our theology. So if you’re trying to, if you’re trying to get other types of marriage into our theology, you just point to polygamy, right?

[1:41:50] Michelle: And play with marriage, we can play with marriage. Yeah, like

[1:41:53] Gwendolyn Wyne: it was fine then. And that works. So like this works too and frankly they’re right. So they’re totally right.

[1:42:02] Michelle: Right. If marriage, yeah, if marriage is what God established it that causes that causes problems all around. If marriage isn’t what God established, that causes different problems, but it solves different problems. So,

[1:42:13] Gwendolyn Wyne: yeah, so, so it was so it was um uh you know, respectfully rejected. We appreciate it. No, thank you. Um And so I would, but I felt like I have to just put this out there, right? Like there needs to be as you know, you’re doing your youtube and I was like, great, I’m gonna do some writing, like there will be multiple avenues. And so I just made my own website, I just put it on there because I was like, you know what, I’m just gonna put it out into the universe, right? And so I, I

[1:42:41] Michelle: will link that below as well, so you can read it.

[1:42:43] Gwendolyn Wyne: Well, my, my website just has links to the publishing that I’ve done. Um And I also just made a separate page because I do butterfly conservation because I just started doing that. And yeah, I did it in 2020. I was like, we have to do something in our backyard. And um but so, so, so a few people read it and they were like, hey, I really think you should put it on youtube and I was like, oh, no, thanks. Um or like, what do I do read a 20 page paper? And, but then the idea started coming like a lot and I started to make an outline and I was like, oh dear, this is not what I wanted to do. And also I was like, Michelle’s got it. She’s doing it. It’s good, but they just kept to come more and more. And I was like, and then when you did your video where you were just essentially feeling alone and I was like, that’s it. That’s it. I’m doing this. So right now. I’m um I think nine or 10 videos and I’m just finishing up, I’m going through my paper in video format so less. Um I’m not reading it. I’m just doing basically argument by argument and we’re just going through the scriptures and showing like here’s where it started and here’s what kept happening over and over and over. So right now I’m just finishing up the old Testament excuses video and it’s been really helpful because like you’ve addressed a lot of these, but it’s nice to have just lots of voices and so a lot of people will bring scriptures and you’ll see polygamist comment and, and a lot of the arguments they’re like, well because of this and you know, you’re not supposed to multiply wives, but, but certainly four horses can pull a chariot. So four wives is also not multiplying wives. And it’s like, ok, I think if that’s your best argument, we’re, we’re not gonna have any trouble, too much trouble to, to, to deal with that. So I’m working on just all the old Testament excuses we use. And my, my um angle is basically like you can have faith that polygamy is of God. You can keep that faith. But I don’t, I have faith that polygamy is not of God and I have faith that I have a mother in heaven and a father and they love me and I am going to, the plan is for me to grow to be like her, not them her. So I will show you how you can read all the scriptures and all of the polygamy stuff and see it through the eye of faith that it is not of God. Ok? And so that’s what I’m looking on. So I’m like, I’m like 910 videos, nine videos in and I’m, I’m thinking it will probably be like 2025 somewhere in there. So it’ll take me forever because I cannot do this once a week. I don’t know how you do it,

[1:45:21] Michelle: but I know interviews help. So thank you. And I actually have to say, I, I feel I use, you use softer language that I feel when you’re like, you can believe it’s not of God, but you also can believe, I mean, you can believe it’s of God, but you also could believe it not of it’s not a God. I’m kind of to the point where I’m like, yeah, just like like someone just commented on my videos again that has commented a lot. That’s an adamant polygamy supporter. And I’m just like, no matter how many times you insist that you know, in your heart that the emperor has clothes, all we have to do is I’ll open our eyes and see that the emperor has no clothes, right? Like you can’t, you, there is no no solid scriptural justification for polygamy and that’s what they rely on to claim it was a God. The more like it is, it, the arguments are so weak and so illogical and just so ridiculous that I don’t think you actually can believe honestly that polygamy was a God. What you can do is keep your blinders on, refuse to see, refuse to look and say no, no, no, no, I can’t hear you. No, no, no. You know, like you’re free to do that but you, but we all can see what you’re doing and you are not coming from a place of knowledge, light truth, even the scriptures, there is nothing to support your claims. It’s the scriptural, theological, biological, sociological, like psychological, physiological. Any way you want to address it. Polygamy is not a God.

[1:46:55] Gwendolyn Wyne: No, I agree. I just think, I just think people shut down, right? Like I, I’ve even noticed in my conversation, right? Because I’m like very active as soon as I got released is really society president. My h my husband’s elders, current president, like we’re in there, we’re in it, you know, and I don’t bring this to, to like to, I mean, I, I’m trying to just pay attention at church and see what would be appropriate to say, right? I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna ask people which is not what you’re saying. But I think that people, even when I’ve talked with people, sometimes the, the, the wall goes up so fast and I’m like, oh, I’ve gone too far. Like it’s very hard for me. To tell nowadays where I am because I feel like I’m super normal middle of the road and then I’m like, I, I’m not because I’m like, like women,

[1:47:41] Michelle: like, why aren’t you talking about polygamy in belief society? What’s happening

[1:47:45] Gwendolyn Wyne: here? Yeah. Yeah. So I’ve noticed and also I was very, I, this might lose me. Some, some friends and family, well, not friends, my friends all know this, I was very active in prop eight and that was right after my husband and I got married and like, there’s a lot, I mean, there’s just, if you weren’t there, it’s hard to have a judgment about it. Right? Because there wasn’t a lot of, um, there’s just, there’s so much to it. Right. And so I learned that I can’t just be like, this is how it is for me. Right. Especially in the place where I live. Like I just can’t come at people like that. I have to come like I have to just accept like you’re gonna believe what you believe and, and also just letting go of that has been helpful for me personally. I, I, you know, again, I don’t have any problem with the way that you see it as well, but it’s been helpful for me to be like, you know, what, there will be people who believe in polygamy right up till the end and it’ll be, I mean, you know, and I, and I’m even willing to be like, Yeah, we will see. We’ll see. And that’s ok. Like I’m comfortable taking responsibility for myself, but I’m not comfortable saying nothing. If all of my sisters don’t even know that, that this belief is an option. Like you can still believe in the book of Mormon, you can still be a member of the church and you can reject polygamy fully as coming from Satan, which our own scriptures are the ones that tell us that like, that’s what’s so tragic is that we the Latter day Saints have the best case against polygamy. By far, by far, you’re the ones that say it started from a man who covenant of a Satan genesis just says he married two wives and it’s like, ok, unclear, but we’re like anti covenant of a Satan.

[1:49:27] Michelle: And the book of Mormon is the most adamantly anti polygamy scripture in all of scripture. And so I would say like, when people understand that if you actually want to be in alignment with scripture, in alignment with, especially the book of Mormon, and you know, this is the perspective and it shouldn’t be this hard because as I’ve said, many times, we have already rejected all of Brigham Young’s other doctrines, every single one of them and we’ve even rejected polygamy. We just haven’t

[1:49:55] Gwendolyn Wyne: done practice.

[1:49:58] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We apparently haven’t even rejected the racial ban enough. You know, according to a lot of our members of different races that still feel it or that aren’t members because people still believe it. So it just needs to go deep into our hearts to recognize these were false doctrines, faults from the beginning. As soon as we reject them, we can be fully in alignment with our scriptures, fully in alignment, the word of God and we can get rid of all of our messiness. It’s like we’re still dragging this big bag of bricks along with us trying to do our, it’ll be so much better. We let it go and just go. Yeah, that was bad. But look what’s good, right? It’s so much better. So, hey,

[1:50:42] Gwendolyn Wyne: I think, I think women, I would, I just want to add, I think women were the first to be enslaved right through this. Like this is our first record of it and we will be the last to be liberated, but we will be and we, and Isaiah tells us, lose your to the daughters of Zion, lose yourselves, right? So we lose ourselves from the bands around our neck. We’re not supposed to wait for other people to do it for us. We are called to loose ourselves.

[1:51:12] Michelle: I love that. Ok. I’m gonna go look that script right now because I love

[1:51:16] Gwendolyn Wyne: it. Gives me chills. It talks about like there’s a doctor come that says the band or the, the sins and all that. And it’s just like, yeah, that’s what this is

[1:51:23] Michelle: absolutely losing ourselves is like opening our minds. Letting the scales of darkness fall. It is coming stepping into the priestess hood that has always been ours than our privilege, our right and our responsibility. So, ok, this has been awesome. Thank you so much for talking to me. I’m hoping that we will obviously stay in touch and you know, and if I do get any of these journal articles written, I will send them to you first. Oh

[1:51:51] Gwendolyn Wyne: yeah, I love, I used to be I I was on BYU Inscape as an editor there and, and I love editing. So yeah. Yay.

[1:51:58] Michelle: Perfect. OK. I

[1:52:00] Gwendolyn Wyne: love,

[1:52:00] Michelle: well, thank you. Have a great day. Have a great rest of your trip and I’m sure we’ll talk again

[1:52:05] Gwendolyn Wyne: soon. Thank you Michelle.

[1:52:07] Michelle: Thank you another huge. Thank you to Gwendolyn for coming and talking to me. Her beautiful articles will be linked below. I highly recommend them also her youtube channel that anyone for anyone who wants to engage with that. Um And I do again, I hope but watching this conversation has maybe started moving some inspiration for some of you who feel like you would like to contribute your voice and your thoughts to these new frontiers of discovery that we are doing. I just love having light and knowledge poured out from heaven upon our heads. I think it’s a beautiful journey and it’s very exciting to be part of it. So again, it took me years and years and years for the Lord to finally tell me it was time and open the way for me. So no hurry. But the invitation is always there for anyone to join in the conversation. Um Also, I am so glad you’re here. I am excited for the episodes we have coming forward this month, I’ve had to hurry and get a lot together. But starting on the next couple of weeks, we will be getting, getting into things like the Temple episode episode. I’ve been looking forward to also the um revelation on eternal marriage slash the false revelation on plural marriage and the expositor and all of those important topics and so many more things. So I look forward to what’s coming up and I thank you for being here. I’ll see you next time.