Barbara Jones Brown, author with Richard Turley of Vengeance is Mine, The Mountain Meadows Massacre and its Aftermath, joins me to discuss this most horrific part of our Utah and LDS history.
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Transcript:
[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 problems revisiting Mormon polygamy, where we explore the scriptural theological and historical case for plural marriage. Today, we are taking a bit of a side track track from that topic to instead talk about one of the most painful violent events in Mormon history and that is Mountain Meadows massacre. I am so excited for the opportunity to bring this conversation to you with Barbara Jones Brown who I just immensely admire and was so happy to be able to talk to. She is an editor, a historian and author and she is going to come and share some of her insights on this topic. We unfortunately only had a little while to talk. So some of you will be thankful, we maybe appreciate a little bit short episode this week, but she has promised to come back so we could delve into some more issues that I would love to talk to her about. So I’m so thankful that she came to talk to me. I’m thankful that you are here and thank you for joining us as we take this deep dive into the, I can’t even call these murky waters into the bloody waters of the Mountain Meadow massacre. Welcome to 100 32 problems. I am thrilled to be here with Barbara Jones Brown today. I’m so thankful that she has agreed to come and talk to me and I’m so just amazed and thankful for the work that she has done. So we’re just gonna dive right in and Barbara, I actually don’t know that much about you. So I’ll tell a little bit of what I know to the audience and then ask you to go ahead and round out the introduction. Is that all right? I, I know that Barbara right now is the CEO of signature books, which I think is awesome. And before that you were the, was it called the managing director, Director of the Mormon History, executive
[01:55] Barbara: Director of the Mormon History Association?
[01:58] Michelle: Ok. And I know you’ve done other amazing things. You were the editor on Rick Turley’s first book Me Me, I mean, first book on Mountain Meadows, The um Massacre at Mountain Meadows. And then you and Rick Turley co-wrote this recent book, Vengeance Is Mine, which is a brand new way of looking at mountain meadows that I just find compelling. I have to say this book is, it is a must read. That’s chilling. I need to go back and reread the first one because it’s been many years. It is a hard topic. So I’m eager to talk to you. I just really quickly, I know you did your undergrad at BYU and your master’s at the U in American History. And, and you have at least two Children. Is that correct? That’s my
[02:42] Barbara: husband and I have five altogether. So I have three stepsons from my husband’s first marriage and then we have two girls together. So, all together. We have five kids and one grandchild and another coming November 30th.
[02:54] Michelle: So. Oh, congrat. Ok. That’s exciting. That’s so fun. So, anyway, you have had an amazing career and it’s, it’s so fun to get to talk to you. So, what did I leave out? What should we know about you?
[03:07] Barbara: Uh That covers a lot of it. Um Before I was executive director of the Mormon History Association, I was historical director of Better Days 2020 which is a Utah nonprofit dedicated to increasing awareness of Utah women’s role in the suffrage movement and in activism and so forth. So I learned a lot about uh Utah women’s history as well through that. And I love history. I’m passionate about it. Uh My background is in editing. I used to be an editor for the Ensign Magazine and for the New Era magazine years ago, uh until I started getting interested in history and Mormon history and then I decided I wanted to become a historian. So went back to school and earn my master’s degree in American History.
[03:54] Michelle: Oh, ok. That’s good to hear how that happened. So, OK, that, and that’s how you got interested in it. And it’s so fascinating. So, ok, there’s so many directions I want to go talking about this. So Mountain Meadows, did you just get drawn into that topic specifically? Because Richard Turley reached out to you to be his editor? Is
[04:14] Michelle: that ok?
[04:15] Barbara: So this is interesting. The first time I ever heard about the Mountain Meadows massacre was when I was 22 and I actually have the artifact. It happens to be hanging in my office. So I’m just gonna go like this for a second and, and show your viewers that. But um so my dad was really into Mormon History, a Mormon Americana. So he collected all kinds of historical artifacts and things. And so this, that I just showed you was hanging on our wall growing up. And as I looked at it, I it just looked like a mountain scene with the wagon company going into a valley. I never really looked very closely at it. But then in 1990 two, I started looking more closely and there was a group of these very racialized, inaccurate depictions of native Americans. And for the first time I noticed them there in the corner. And so I said, and then I looked at the bottom and it said mountain meadows. And I said, dad, what, what’s mountain Meadows? And he told me about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, which was just absolutely shocking
[05:23] Michelle: while preparing to release this episode. I realized that in our limited time, we hadn’t really described exactly what happened at the Mountain Meadows massacre. So for anyone not familiar with the Mountain Meadows massacre, I thought a very brief overview would enable people to better understand the conversation. I wrote this up taken heavily from Richard Turley’s and Barbara Jones Brown’s books. I hope I didn’t. I’m I’m not misleading anyone on any of the details. If so please correct me in the comments. September 11th, 1857 after a four day siege, a California bound wagon train made up mostly of families who had circled the wagons after a supposed Indian attack was out of water and desperate to find a way out of their terrible predicament. The Mormon leaders worried that witnesses in the wagon train would know that Mormons not just Indians were their Attackers made the horrible decision that anybody old enough quote to tell tales must be eliminated. They called out the militia and gave the men detailed instructions. All the immigrants except the small Children were to be killed using a false flag of truth, promising to escort them safely out of the valley. The Mormons lured the immigrants out of their circled wagons, the women and Children walking ahead, followed by the men and the older boys in a single file line, each with the militia escort walking beside him after walking over a mile, the militia commander turned and yelled the order. Halt at that. Each militia man turned and shot the man or boy beside him. Then the paiutes who had been told to hide along with the militiamen killed all of the women and older Children along with many little ones. After less than six horrific minutes, 120 men, women and Children lay lifeless on the bloody meadow. Only 17 traumatized and some badly injured young Children, 26 year olds and the rest younger who had just watched their fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters, their entire families brutally and ruthlessly murdered were left alive. The Mountain Meadows massacre. The most horrific event in the history of Mormonism is part of our history that we should know about and grapple with in order to understand our past, our present and help shape our
[07:52] Michelle: future.
[07:54] Barbara: I said, why, why would these Mormon settlers wipe out a wagon train of immigrants? Why? And he says, well, we don’t really know much about it. Um, supposedly they had the gun that killed Joseph Smith and poisoned a well in Utah. And I just said so, even if that’s true, like how does that justify wiping out men, women and Children? And he just says, we just don’t know much about it. And so ever since then, it was always on my back burner. It’s just something I always wanted to learn more about. And so, um, I had turned in a resume to the church history department after I resigned from full time employment at the ensign because I had a, a baby and I wanted to be at home with her, but I still wanted to do freelance work. And so six months later to make a long story short, I got a phone call from Richard E Turley Junior who was managing director of the L DS church history department at the time. And he was working on this book and he just said, I want you to come and interview with me for a full time editing position. And I said, well, what would I be doing? He said, I want you to edit my book on the Mount Meadows Massacre. And I said, I’ll be right. Um And so he hired me to, to work on that book. And so that’s how I got into Mountain Meadows. And it was while I was working on the subject and just digging into the primary sources to learn everything I could about it. Um I decided I wanted to become a historian. I decided I didn’t want to simply edit historians. I wanted to be a historian. And so I went back to graduate school to earn my master’s in American history. And then Rick asked me to co-author volume two, Vengeance’s Mind, the Mountain Meadows massacre and its aftermath, which covers everything that picking up where the first book massacre in Mountain Meadows left off picking up there and then going all the way through the execution of one of its perpetrators John D Lee and the death of Brigham Young in 1877.
[10:01] Michelle: Ok. Ok. I love that you with two little baby girls, started a whole new career. That’s incredible. That’s,
[10:09] Michelle: yeah, I definitely
[10:09] Barbara: had a very, very supportive spouse who um, I was working part time going to grad school part time and we had these two little girls, we were raising, our boys were a little bit older by then, but um very supportive spouse. So that’s
[10:26] Michelle: fantastic. That’s, that’s so good. That’s what it takes, right? It’s a team. So, have you mentioned that? So I want to explain. So I first actually asked you on, asked Barbara to come on because I was going to do a series on blood atonement. I’m I’m going through kind of Brigham’s false doctrines that we’ve rejected and one of them is blood atonement. So I had a three part series plant and I wanted one of the parts to be a mountain meadows. But I, I, I do uh I don’t not know how you studied this so deeply because I didn’t even get in depth into mountain meadows, but studying the rest of blood atonement got so dark and so heavy. And it was when I um finally got into the Timpanogos um massacre that I just was like, I, I can’t do it anymore. I, you know, I just intentionally, even after well over a month of intensive research, I just set it all aside. I still have all of my files. But like what did doing studying this do to you guys? I can’t, I, it’s hard. Yeah.
[11:30] Barbara: So I should, I should first point out that we do talk about, we address the subject of blood, blood atonement in vengeance’s mind. And in fact, we have an incident um that is do well documented in which Isaac Hate, who was the state president of Cedar City and Philip Klingensmith, who’s the bishop of Cedar City in which they carry out blood atonement on a man who is a repeated uh confessed adulterer with, with a young girl. Um So of course, that was very wrong but but um executing him was not extra legal violence was not OK. But so we do talk about it and address it. But what our research found that the the Mountain Meadows massacre was not a result of blood atonement like blood atonement. Definitely that teaching at the time definitely uh contributed to a mindset of violence. But the motive behind the Mountain Meadows massacre was not blood atonement. But so I just want to say that first but and then we can get into the motives behind the massacre if, if you’d like to as well. But studying the violence of the massacre uh was incredibly difficult. It, it was an incredibly violent, horrific act of group violence. Um And how did I get through it? Eventually I started meaning to send in some victims and I did not know that this would help me get through it. But as I met descendants of victims of the massacre and just told them how sorry I was for what had happened to their ancestors and how wrong it was. What had happened to their ancestors after I started meeting them and then saying what it meant so much to them to hear that from a latter day saint just saying, I’m so sorry. Um And then I would say, what can I do for you? And they wanted the story told about what had happened to their ancestors. They wanted their ancestors to not never be forgotten. And then they wanted the land at the mountain meadows where the remains of their ancestors lie today um to be protected in perpetuity. Um And we achieved that through seeking national historic landmark status together, the various groups coming together. So once I realized there was something I could do for the victims and that was serving their descendants and reaching out to their descendants. And I started doing that, that’s how I got through uh learning about the violence because I knew I was researching that violence and telling the truth about that violence for them. Oh Yeah. And that’s how I got through it.
[14:21] Michelle: OK. So, so did you, while you were backing up just a little, did you feel like you had some sort of trauma from study? Like was it traumatic for you to study it? Ok.
[14:31] Barbara: Absolutely. And there were several of us that were really, um, experiencing the trauma. And in fact, I remember at the time my next door neighbor was a licensed therapist and I was just telling her about the nightmares I was having, I had two little little girls at the time. And right, I
[14:49] Michelle: was, you’re in the position of those moms trying to hold that baby.
[14:54] Barbara: I did not identify with the Mormon militiamen, even though I’m a lateral, I did not identify with them. I identified with the immigrant women who were suffering and were trying to just protect their Children and could do nothing to protect their Children. They were murdered as well as their Children were being murdered. Um So as I would share what I was going through, you know, the nightmares I was having, I was seeing like images. I would um I remember once I was holding one of my little girls and holding the hand of my other little girl and running to catch a bus, oh my girls and running as fast as I could. And I just started hyperventilating and I had to stop because I, all of a sudden I was at the Mount Meadows running with my Children. Um Just things like that. And so as I was expressing those experiences to my neighbor who’s a licensed therapist, she said, you know, everything you’re describing are symptoms of PTSD. And I said, can, can someone have ptsd just from studying a violent event. And she said, I don’t know, but I do know those are all symptoms of it. So, but again, once I started meeting folks who were descendants of victims and doing those things I described it went away.
[16:10] Michelle: Ok. Do you know what I love about that so much? One thing I talk about a lot is like repentance, the power of repentance, right? That the first two principles of the gospel are faith and repentance. And like, like you didn’t do anything wrong, but this kind of generational repentance is part of what I think we have. And that includes telling the truth, confessing, do, doing what we can and then doing what we can to rectify. And so even though you didn’t do anything, you being a part of the repentance process on behalf of our people killed you, I think
[16:43] Barbara: absolutely. And I would call it like, like you said, none of us alive today are responsible for the massacre. And so um I think a slightly better word than repentance is reconciliation part of the reconciliation process. Um So although I can’t repent of committing it, I can reach out to descendants of victims in a spirit of reconciliation and just say, I am so sorry for what happened. Recognizing that it was wrong, recognizing that it happened, expressing that sorrow and saying, OK, what can we do today to heal? So, yeah, it’s a very powerful experience and um it’s taught me that not just with mountain meadows, but with many, many, a lot of intergenerational trauma, the way to heal from it is, is just starting by acknowledging that that something happened. Yeah. And telling the truth about it and then expressing sorrow,
[17:41] Michelle: being able to acknowledge that our ancestors and our religious tradition did things that were wrong. And I guess that’s what I, for me, that’s how I look at it as repentance because it’s, it’s this change of heart, you know, like, like this change of heart to say I can acknow that, that was wrong and, and that, that’s not who God is and that’s not who I am. And I don’t have to say because that was my people and because that was my ancestors, I have to try to defend it. That’s like you feel trapped in it.
[18:10] Barbara: Exactly. Yeah. And there’s absolutely no defense, no justification. Um I think to, to, to truly feel that sorrow for it, you have to understand what happened. And so I was able to express sincere deep sorrow for what happened because I was studying it. And that’s what, you know, readers now, they can take uh this book and read it and like, truly personally feel sorrow for what happened. And so I love speaking about me meadows. Every time we speak, I just spoke a couple of days ago, every time we speak about it, we have people come to us and whether they are descendants of perpetrators themselves or just simply members of the church or just simply tans, whatever. Um When they say, oh, I’ve been reading your book and I’m feeling such incredible sorrow over it. Um That’s when you could truly then say I’m so sorry for what happened.
[19:09] Michelle: I OK, I agree. And I wanna say, like people can read this book without reading the first one. I like, I just did that and it makes you really want to go back and read or reread the first one. But you can start with this one, which in a way I kind of like doing because you get all of the context before the gory details. So you kind of know what was going on, why it was happening, what the rep like what ended up happening. Do you know what I mean? It pains it really, it’s really good to understand that full picture and then go back and read about the actual events. Thank
[19:44] Barbara: you. Yeah, that’s great to hear because that was our intent. We wanted to write volume two. though it do, does a deep dive into the aftermath of the massacre, we didn’t want readers to have to read the first one. And so we start on September 11th, 1857 and go forward. But through the use of flashback and summary, we do bring readers up to speed. So you don’t have to read both books. But if you do want to do a deep dive. Like you’re saying, you could also um read volume one and also something. Volume one has Massacre at Mountain Meadows has that volume two doesn’t, is an appendix appendices of lists of the perpetrators who are involved in the crime and lists of the victims as well. So that in those appendices that are not in volume two.
[20:36] Michelle: OK. So I, I wanted to have the hard copy copy. I should just show everybody but I, I have it on Kindle and on audio, on audible. But I have this right here so I can show this is the book. Vengeance is mine. And so um this is what you’re looking for. And I, I wanted to have Barbara on, I know this would be a weird Christmas present maybe. But I’m like, people need to know about this really good book because when we’re grappling with our painful, this is like, like when people are so determined to defend the church and all of the, all of the things that happened. This is a really good thing to understand this, this topic. So I think people should definitely consider that. I will say the audio version is fantastic. I love
[21:18] Michelle: the reader.
[21:19] Barbara: They hired a professional reader, a professional actor and he does all the voices. I was really pleased with how the audio book turned out. Yeah.
[21:29] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. So it’s really good. So I know we don’t have that long. So I want to just dive into it really quickly because I was glad that you addressed. Um Well, like you didn’t, it didn’t feel like a incredibly apologetic book I went in not at all. Like it’s not at all. Right? Like you include the things that Brigham said. I mean, I know a lot more but you, you quote the hard stuff and you go into it. I love, it feels very fair and even handed you’re not sugar coating, but you’re also not like, like, you know, there have been other books written, like we either want to do an apologetic version or a really accusatory version. So I’ve really liked you giving us the sources. That’s what I wish historians would always do is say this person said this, this, you know, you give us a good, yeah.
[22:16] Barbara: And I said my, my training, you know, my graduate training in history uh helped with that, you know, and, and of course, my co author had the same feeling but um uh all human beings are biased, that’s just part of being human. But the way that you address that um as a historian is, you share as many sources, all the sources you can find and you share the various viewpoints and lay it all out and explain your interpretations. But with your interpretations, you have uh you document all the sources that you’re basing your interpretations on. And, and yeah, we, we went to the hard places we shared all of the, the troubling things. Um the troubling themes and, and doctrines like blood atonement that were being taught and um the horrific wrong decisions that were made by people. So we also like to lay out the, the context. There’s, there’s absolutely zero justification for the Mountain Meadows massacre, no justification whatsoever. But by understanding the historical context, then we can see how something as horrific as this took place.
[23:30] Michelle: That’s what I was going to ask. Do you want to, I know we don’t have very long. So do you want to just take a few minutes though, to explain how this came about what the um what that context was?
[23:41] Barbara: Sure. So in 1857 President James Buchanan, newly elected president of the United States decides that it’s necessary to replace Brigham Young as territorial governor of Utah and also to send uh an army contingent of 2500 soldiers initially to occupy Utah territory. And he makes that decision based on reports. He’s receiving that Utah is a uh that there’s a growing theocracy in the, in the West and which is true. Brigham Young was not only the governor of the territory, he was also president of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So, um and also there were reports that Latter day Saints were forming alliances with local natives. Now, of course, that’s based on L DS doctrine that’s based on Book of Mormon that, that these kind of, of, of friendships and relationships would take place. But for um people in the East Americans in the East, they were very suspicious of those friendships and alliances. They were concerned about that. And then also there was a concern about polygamy which was now um being public uh practiced publicly by the latter day Saints in Utah. So for all these reasons, Buchanan decides he needs to replace Brigham Young and send an army to make sure that uh this new territorial governor is received and is safe and um just kind of trying to control what’s going on in the West simultaneously. You have similar kinds of things going on in the South for different reasons. This is of course just before the civil war, but Buchanan decides to try and quell what he perceives as um a rebellion in the West. So the latter day Saints, when they hear the news that troops are approaching, they from their mindset, they have been violently driven from Illinois and Missouri in the prior two decades. So they react very negatively and with fear. And Brigham Young says we will let the new territorial governor and other appointees come in but the troops shall not enter our territories, they shall not occupy Utah.
[26:00] Michelle: Can I ask you a really quick question about that? Of course. So, so one thing in my studies that has, has emerged at times is that the army that was here before was at Steptoe army that was passing, the army had been in Utah. I’m sorry,
[26:17] Barbara: they were passing through, they weren’t occupying Utah territory. They were passing through on their
[26:21] Michelle: way. They were just there for a little while. And, um, and my understanding is is that when they left and went on their way to California, I believe some of the Utah women, I guess they weren’t Utah yet, but girls and women kind of saw them as their, it was escape route and went
[26:37] Michelle: with them. So
[26:38] Barbara: some women from Utah did leave with Steptoe army,
[26:43] Michelle: right? And, and then, and then also Brigham complained about them sort of fraternizing with the women in Utah, you know, flirting and I haven’t been able to find any accounts of like sexual assault or any, you know, it, it sounds more like Brigham just didn’t want them to fraternize and that maybe Brigham kind of wanted to control the girls and the women not allow them to have a different alternatives because they were such a high commodity at that time in Utah. Do you think that that played in at all to part of his insistence that the next arm that Johnston’s army did not come to Utah?
[27:19] Barbara: Um Yeah, so um it’s called the here’s one thing really quick. I just want to correct with people for. So whenever, thank you, people commonly say Johnston’s army, which is like, not an accurate term. So I’m just trying to share the word that the actual term was the Utah expedition was the name of that army that came in. Ok. So, yeah, so with the Utah expedition, I think there was definite concern about again, you have army coming in and um concern that maybe some Mormon women, would our troops or when these troops would leave, maybe leave with them. So I think that was definitely part of it. I think just in general, I mean, can you imagine today if all of a sudden we heard that the President of the United States was sending federal troops to come occupy our cities today?
[28:06] Michelle: Yeah, it would be absolutely not.
[28:08] Barbara: Right. Um
[28:10] Michelle: Right.
[28:11] Michelle: Especially this traumatized people. They also lost n they, I mean, it had happened again and again and I did find quotes where Brigham expected to be chased out of Utah, you know, but then he also expected to go back to Missouri. So I understand at the same time, I’m sympathetic with the United States. Like when you look at the FL DS, you know, that was a horrible thing that happened. The rating of the short creation for Zion Ranch, the FL DS group. But at the same time, it’s really good that it happened. So it’s hard to, it’s hard to weigh these things out. They’re difficult on both sides.
[28:44] Barbara: Exactly. And, and again, as a historian, we just share this is this point viewpoint, this is this viewpoint and this is, yeah, why it led to a clash and then people can make their own judgments about how they feel about it, you know. But um yeah, so it’s, it’s, it’s easy to understand both sides, the reaction of both sides from the federal government’s point of view and then from the latter day saints point of view where they’re coming from. So Brigham Young writes in his journal and again, this is all in our book, we go into it in detail all of this. But he writes in his journal when he hears the troops are coming, he says, I feel to be oppressed no more. And that’s one of the titles of our chapters is oppressed no more. So he’s determined that the latter of Saints will not be driven from their homes again. And I determined to not have federal soldiers occupying the the territory.
[29:33] Barbara: So he comes up with strategies, he and his advisors come up with strategies to keep the troops out and hopefully convince Congress and the president to pull the troops back. So one of those stra strategies is they send Mormon militiamen uh into what is today Wyoming to burn the grass uh on the trails ahead of the approaching troops and their supply wagons. So some people may have heard of these famous lot Smith expeditions and and others where they’re like burning the grass on the trail so that their animals are dying. So they can’t keep pulling the wagons, they burn supply wagons. Uh, they have it, um, instructions not to kill anyone, but just to harass the troops and just to stall them on the planes. And in fact, that’s exactly what happens. The troops, they cannot, um, progress. They cannot make it into Utah’s territory. So they end up wintering on the planes near, um, the burned down Fort Bridger at the time. So that’s successful. And then within the territory, Brigham Young is sending um uh advisory letters throughout the territory telling people to preserve their grain, not to sell any of their grain to passing immigrants to store it in case they have have to go into a siege if the army does make it in, prepare your ammunition, your guns and be ready for a possible um war if the troops do make it in. And then another strategy is Brigham Young knows that the Saints best leverage is to say, hey, we’ve been keeping all of these trails that lead to the we co west coast safe for emigration because we’re here. We are mitigating uh conflicts between native peoples and passing immigrants, keeping it so that these trails are still open for immigration. So he starts saying after the troops are on their way, he’s preaching this, he’s writing letters back east. He is telling reporters all of this. He’s saying if you send troops here, I will say to the Indians no more, I will hold them back. No more but say to them do as you please. And so again, he’s playing on racialized stereotypes of the 19th century that uh Indians are savages and they are just gonna all hell is gonna break loose and they’re gonna start attacking all of these immigrant trains. Um Unless you pull the troops out. Ok. So, so what we documented is that between September 7th and October 3rd, 1857 multiple cattle raids on immigrant companies that are trailing cattle, multiple raids take place on multiple trains through multiple locations throughout Utah territory. Only one of them goes awry and ultimately leads to the massacre.
[32:41] Michelle: Ok. This is, this is super helpful. I wanted people to understand that because I love understanding this context. So Brigham, I want to talk about this part of his strategy because I, so I have to say the more, well, it’s hard to know where to go first. But the more I have studied Brigham Young, the more I feel like I’m kind of starting to paint at least in my own mind, kind of a character of who of, of uh you know, an understanding of who at least I think he was. And um and so I, I think that the, the idea that he is telling the federal government, hey, look, the Indians are these wild savages big bad. You need to be so afraid of them and it’s just me keeping them at bay while what he’s actually doing is, he’s the big bad guy. He’s the one attacking the trains. He’s the one, if any native Americans are involved, it’s him stoking. He’s, he has to try to encourage them to do it. So, I don’t know if you’ve seen, um, American Tale. That was a movie. I raised my oldest kids on with Fel Masts. It’s, it reminds me of the scene where, um, it’s, it’s the, the rat that is keeping all of the cats safe if they pay him enough, right? And then it turns out no, he’s the, he’s the leader of this gang of cats, right?
[33:58] Movie Clip: It’s Zach. What? War? And t he’s not a rat, he’s a cat. He’s there. Pay no attention to that little mouse, just throw down all your money and that kid. And I will personally convince these cats to leave you alone.
[34:15] Michelle: And that’s what, um, Brigham Young is doing. He’s, he’s saying, hey, I’m your protector when really what he kind of is, is the instigator. He’s the threat, not the, I
[34:24] Barbara: will say that.
[34:24] Barbara: So, um, he was governor of Utah and then he was also Superintendent of Indian Affairs for Utah. So every territory, every state had a superintendent of Indian Affairs and that person was, um, had sub agents who actually were trying to mitigate as, as they were encroaching on native lands and taking those lands. They were trying to mitigate and make sure that the, um, native Americans didn’t attack and so they would give presents, they would uh and by presence, it was um blankets and clothing and food and wagons. And again, this isn’t just in Utah, this is happening throughout the West and also trying to teach native Americans white man’s way of farming. So in other words, trying to make them like white men and trying to integrate them into uh white men’s culture in order to try and keep those trails open and keep that immigration flowing. It was a way to try and um pacify native Americans whose lands and water and everything were, were being taken. Um So he, he and his agents were doing that. They were mitigating these conflicts beforehand. It’s just in 1857. Um He decides to stop mitigating and, but then not only that he is having um Indian interpreters or in other words, interpreters Mormon missionaries to the Indians who speak these languages lead local Indians in raiding cattle,
[36:01] Michelle: right? That, well, that’s, I guess what I mean that
[36:03] Barbara: just say I don’t want a drop of blood to be shed. Um By doing this, we will win public opinion.
[36:10] Michelle: Mhm
[36:11] Barbara: So he does not order a massacre but when things go awry with one of these cattle raids at the mountain meadows, eventually it leads to local people particularly um Isaac Haight, who’s the local militia leader and state president of Cedar City, making the horrific decision that they need to wipe out these people. And I can tell about how it got to that as well. When, when you
[36:37] Michelle: do you want, do you want, I can sum that up fast or you sum that up because it’s your work. So, um, I have other things I want to get to too. So I, I
[36:47] Michelle: really quickly.
[36:48] Barbara: So the first attack on an immigrant train takes place at the mo the one inc camped at the mountain meadows in Southwester Utah takes place on September 7th and instead of just running off the cattle, which is what happens with all of the other raids. Um Some people are killed, some, some of the immigrants are killed in the process and the immigrants form a wagon corral they dig in, they circle their wagons, chain the wheels together. And so they’re dug in there. And then when two Mormon militiamen are on their way back from Mount Meadows back to Cedar City, they encounter two emigrant men several miles back who were behind the main company just rounding out straight cattle to bring them in. And when they come upon these two immigrant men, these two Mormon militia men from Cedar City make the horrible decision that to contain the situation. They need to kill these two immigrant men so they fire on them and they kill one of them. We know his name was William Aden and the other one they miss and he rides back and they chase him back all the way to the mountain meadows and this other immigrant man man gets inside his wagon corral. And then so now what you have is inside everyone inside that wagon corral is deemed a witness that White Latter Day Saints are involved in all these raids.
[38:20] Michelle: The necessary story was that it was Native Americans. And the and the Latter day Saints are protecting you from the native Americans that
[38:28] Barbara: then they find out, oh, white Mormons are involved in this attack. Is that
[38:32] Michelle: why they wanted to kill the two men too? Because the, the two men would see these two Mormons and say, oh, this is the Mormons doing it. So that’s why they wanted to kill
[38:40] Michelle: them. They’re like, oh,
[38:41] Barbara: we better contain the situation because otherwise they’re gonna, but it was, it was just a horrible, it was just a series of, it’s horrible like a domino effect of horrible disease.
[38:51] Michelle: It’s kind of like a robbery gone bad. Like I only wanted to go into this house and steal their goods, but they saw they woke up. So now I have to kill everybody that’s kind of they were covering.
[39:03] Michelle: And so
[39:03] Barbara: this is, this is coming from the the perpetrators words themselves. This is, this is not us making it up or guessing. This is what they thought. This is what they say. The this is why they made this decision. And so that’s why they determined to kill everyone inside except those who are too young to tell tales. And so 17 Children aged six and under, most of them babies and toddlers were spared to slaughter.
[39:29] Michelle: Although many babies out, Rosa
[39:31] Barbara: killed, wiped out the witnesses of what was happening.
[39:35] Michelle: Yeah. Ok.
[39:36] Michelle: So, so they didn’t set out with the goal of killing this wagon train, which is it? But it was, they were, they were a people steeped in bloody rhetoric and sometimes steeped in blood. There had already been this really murderous spirit around with, with their, their teaching and some of the things that they did,
[39:57] Michelle: it might be, it might be
[39:58] Barbara: going too far to say that all of these people were steeped in blood and you know, they really, but, but they were different. Yeah, like the doctrine of blood atonement that was being taught by Brigham Young at the time. Um
[40:12] Michelle: Maybe it’s possible, I guess that’s what it is. It was like within the realm of possibility because this had been the rhetoric. The reformation was awful, the rhetoric from
[40:22] Barbara: it. Yeah. And it created a, just a uh so you have the reformation which is um just to explain that really quick for, for your listeners is in 1856 and 1857 church leaders started just preaching really, really um strict rhetoric and you know, trying to increase people’s activist act activity in the church and commitment to the gospel. They’re saying you need to take plural wives. So they’re preaching polygamy, they’re um and then blood atonement is part of that. You know, if, if anyone commits very serious crimes, they can offer themselves up to be a toned. Um so that they can still go to the celestial kingdom, even if they committed heinous scenes sins like murder or repeated adultery is, is what they deemed heinous sins. Um So you have all the and then you have the war, you know, the fear of war. So war hysteria. So you just have a perfect storm of all of these things that came together at the same time. And then these emigrants who were massacred at Mount Meadows were just at the wrong place at the wrong time.
[41:28] Michelle: And, and another thing to throw in, in that with the reformation that part of that grew out of, they were in starvation that like they had plague after plague and drown and they were so they were, you know, they were suffering, which probably makes you not at your best. And then they wanted someone to blame for all of this. I’m sure. So, so yes, I think, I think you’re right that it was this perfect. I mean, I shouldn’t say, I think you’re right. I appreciate you describing that way that a perfect storm had come. And so OK, so I app so so really what it was was this war strategy that I definitely have issues with. I don’t think it’s, I don’t think it makes it OK to say Oh, it was this war strategy. I think it was a terrible war strategy that they were doing. I think they
[42:10] Michelle: were
[42:11] Barbara: absolutely because look what it led to. So clearly, again, Brigham Young did not intend for this to lead to any deaths. And again, we have the quotes from him saying that in the book uh that are contemporary quotes. But still if you’re encouraging counter rating, you know, there can be some consequences and this was very, very serious consequence in time of war. Yeah.
[42:36] Michelle: So this is part of why I wanted to talk to and part of what I love about you is I do feel like you are just like, so, so just truthful just, you know, I love that and not trying to sugar coat. But, but can we talk for a minute about Brigham? Well, did we leave anything out before we kind of, I
[42:55] Barbara: think it’s just like a kind of like a brief overview and, and of course, if readers want to learn more, they can dig deep in by reading their book with, you know, a lot more.
[43:04] Michelle: Yes, we’ve left everything out. Yes, you’re right. I, I just meant, was there anything massive in the overview that we needed? I think
[43:10] Michelle: overview.
[43:10] Michelle: Sure. Yeah. OK. And I do, I do want to encourage people. I know it’s easy to think either I don’t want to get into that or um or I don’t need to know this book. Starts out in a way that like grabs your heart. It starts out with Rachel Hamlin and this wagon of the 17 traumatized injured babies covered in blood coming to her house and it’s the most visceral like from the beginning and then all the way, there are some parts in the middle where it’s a lot of names and a lot of, you know, really good information, but you don’t want to stop because it gets to the end where it is as important and as captivating as you know, like, like this is a book that you should read from start to finish. It’s really, really, really well done. So thank you for it and congratulations on such a good job. But, but I do want to talk about Brigham Young because, um I guess the whole focus is, did he do it? Did he not, did he command it? Did he, did he order it right. And that was the focus from day one when it happened. That was what the, the people that hated and wanted to prove. And, and even now that seems to be the debate. Did Brigham order this? And I think for me, I have sort of a different, well, I kind of, I kind of want to ask first this question from your studies of church history. And do you think Brigham Young? Um What do you think of him? Maybe that’s too broad of a question. I’ll just kind of explain, like, I really think he was either had some psychopathy or some sociopathy. I, I know he was a massive narcissist. I don’t think he had the ability to empathize with people that it wasn’t convenient for him to empathize with, for example, with women and their incessant whining, right? Or with like, like, and, and so with this wagon train, I know he was really upset about it but I’m not
[45:06] Barbara: upset at what,
[45:07] Michelle: what do you mean by
[45:07] Michelle: it about mountain meadows? I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m going everywhere
[45:11] Michelle: it happened.
[45:12] Michelle: He was upset that it happened. Yes. And I know that we have the descriptions but I see, I, I want to kind of give you some of what I see in it and see what you think, you know. But first I, I guess my question is, do you think that if he had the information that, hey, this is your war strategy, you’re desperate to keep the army at bay to keep your position and we have white witness, we have witnesses that it’s Mormons. Do you think he would have said? Oh, ok. Well, let him go or like, like, do you know what I’m saying? I know that we’re not saying he ordered it. But do you think that that that gives him, do you think he wouldn’t have, I guess is my question if he had had, if he had been in hates shoes or if he had been there as part of it.
[45:57] Barbara: Yeah. So that’s a great question. That’s the first time someone’s asked me that with, even with all the interviews I’ve done. Um So just starting with your first comment on this, Brigham Young is a super complicated person as are most humans. But yeah, there are times that I’m just like, like how he’s talking about women um and just telling them to just accept polygamy and get over it and it, you know, as they’re traveling across the plains, I’ve read those accounts, those statements too and it’s really troubling. Um There are times I just, and really troubled by a lot of things he says, absolutely. There are other times where he says or does something that’s really tender and sweet. So it’s, he’s complicated
[46:43] Michelle: and so
[46:43] Michelle: I want to clarify
[46:45] Michelle: he says
[46:46] Barbara: or does and I’ll be like, oh my gosh, that is so tender, you know. Um but there’s a lot of times he says or does things and I’m like, oh, you know.
[46:56] Michelle: Yeah. So
[46:57] Barbara: he’s, he’s
[46:58] Michelle: accomplished, can I
[46:59] Michelle: clarify that one point? Just sorry. But like my study of narcissism, which I’ve life has forced me to do, you know, they can be really empathetic when it doesn’t hurt them to do. So when it do, you know what I, so I haven’t seen Brigham Young choosing empathy at his own expense necessarily anyway, that like I wanted to clarify, that’s kind of how I see it.
[47:24] Barbara: Yeah. And I’m not a psychologist or, you know, qualified to, you know, um, to, like, analyze somebody psychologically. I’m sure that there are others who are yourself and others. Um, so I wouldn’t know if he’s a narcissist as well. I would just say he’s a very, very complicated person, um, who, and we kind of talk about this in the book, um, with, you know, when we’re characterizing him, you know, we’re talking about he’s saying some really violent things and, and on the other hand, he was tenderly caring for his first wife as she died from TB and did the same for his own mother and then became a father figure for his siblings. And yeah, it’s just seems complicated. But do I think he would have said? Oh OK. Yeah, there’s witnesses that know about this. Go ahead and wipe these people. I I don’t think so. I don’t, I mean, Brigham Young had lots of faults but no, I don’t think he would have said, wipe out a lot of OK, that goes against, that goes against his beliefs, right? I mean, the Mormon belief system which he preached is if you murder people, you cannot go to the celestial kingdom, right? That’s part of their doctor.
[48:40] Michelle: Yeah, it is. Yeah,
[48:42] Barbara: I think he would have ordered particularly the slaughter of women and Children,
[48:46] Michelle: Children. And that was I, I I’m totally asking you to speculate. So I didn’t mean to like put you in it I’m sorry about that. I,
[48:54] Barbara: I’ve never been asked it before but if he had known, like, would he have? Yeah. No,
[49:00] Michelle: I guess, I guess my question is him, how important this strategy was to him and how he didn’t seem troubled by the morality or immorality of it,
[49:10] Michelle: of encouraging cattle.
[49:10] Barbara: R, yeah, I mean, it,
[49:13] Michelle: and with having to say it’s the natives and we’re protecting you and having that be blown. I it’s hard for me to think he wouldn’t prioritize that over just about anything. And then would like, in my opinion, he kind of find ways to just find ways sometimes to justify things that are inconvenient to him. And so I don’t think that he would have ordered the murdering of women and Children. I don’t even think that’s what hate. Like they all I think were horrified after the fact at what they had done. Oh, you don’t? Oh, no. Am I wrong? Ok. I thought that I didn’t say to do it. You said to do it like they even immediately were trying to blame you.
[49:48] Barbara: There is that, but like initially on the Sunday after the mass, I mean, you have 50 to 60 white militiamen that participated, right? And that’s, they represent a broad spectrum of different kinds of people, different reactions to it afterwards. So you can’t like put them all, you know, paint them with one brush, right? But you do have some that come back. Um, and on September 13th, the Sunday after the massacre, they’re bragging about it. So John D Lee comes back and he is, and again, this is all in the book if people want to look into it. But John D Lee comes back and he’s like saying Hurrah for Israel and we’ve overcome our enemies and I mean, he’s bra it’s, it’s bizarre. He’s bragging about it until word of Brigham Young’s letter comes down. Um Hate had sent a letter uh up on September 7th to Brigham Young saying, what should we do? And Brigham Young says in this letter and that perhaps gives us our best indication of what Brigham Young might have thought. But he says, if you know the Indians will do as they please. He uses that, that statement again, but he says, but you must not meddle with them. And he says, if those who were there will go, let them go in peace. Now, did he have the full story that people within there, the wagon crowl had found out that they knew that Mormons were involved. We don’t know if he had that full story or not. But anyways, that’s what we do have this letter that was written on September 10th, 1827 and arrives on September 13th in Cedar City.
[51:24] Michelle: Hey, I actually want to add this to the stage and I mean, I want to show you there. It is. Yeah, I, I found the letter and I I’ll put a link below because it’s in the church history library. I think this is the right one. Right. Yes,
[51:35] Barbara: it is. And we have a transcript of this in both books. And in the first book, me, as we have a picture of this that you can see it in that book. But in the second book, we also have a full transcript of the letter.
[51:48] Michelle: So, so, so like the context, you said, the Isaac Hate sent a letter to Brigham Young that he wrote that got there on the seventh or he wrote on the seventh and wrote it on,
[51:58] Barbara: he, he sent it on September 7th after he learns that there’s been this initial
[52:02] Michelle: attack
[52:04] Michelle: and we don’t have, we don’t know exactly what that says because
[52:07] Barbara: unfortunately, that does not survive. So it was either lost or destroyed. We just, it does not exist. I wish it did. So all we have is descriptions of witnesses who saw the letter being as, as the uh carrier. His name was James Haslam is writing north of Salt Lake City and he’s stopping the different towns. Um People are hearing about what the letter from Isaac hate says. And so they’re summarizing it in their journals and so forth. So that’s all we have. Unfortunately, we don’t have the original. But what they’re saying is that, um a group of immigrants have been stalled on the planes or that, that, that they’re under attack at the Mount Meadows, they’re under siege from Indians. Um And Isaac hate is asking what to do. So if there was more detail than that, we just don’t know. Unfortunately, so we look at this letter too, that’s the other thing you can do is look at this letter and see based on the response that comes back to hate, kind of surmise what hate was asking
[53:11] Michelle: about.
[53:12] Michelle: Right. Right. Ok. So the critical question of we have witnesses, which was the motivation for this. Like this was the critical issue. There are witnesses. We don’t know if Brigham was given that piece of information or not. Right? And so
[53:28] Barbara: no, but without that, that the existence of that letter, we don’t know. Yeah.
[53:32] Michelle: OK. And so, um, and it’s possible that they didn’t tell Brigham that because they also didn’t want to get in trouble with Brigham because they massively messed up and maybe not, they don’t want Brigham to know it.
[53:42] Barbara: Exactly the fact that they are unwilling to tell Brigham Young what happened after they wait a long time, they’re arguing over who’s gonna tell Brigham they’re arguing over what they’re gonna say to Brigham. And, and Isaac Hay is telling William Day, the other state president who lives in Parowan who gave the authorization for this to happen with the militiamen. They’re arguing over it and hate is saying you cannot tell Brigham Young that militiamen were involved that you have to tell Brigham Young, this is an all Indian massacre. I mean, that right there shows that they knew that this is not what Brigham Young intended. Right.
[54:24] Michelle: Right. And I guess the thing that, that becomes the question to me is like, is it not what Brigham Young intended because of the loss of life is unthinkable or because of the bad, you know, the bad publicity that it would bring to the Mormons, I
[54:37] Barbara: think, I think, ok,
[54:40] Michelle: ok, because, because I’m going through it because as I’ve been, I don’t know what you think of. Is it Bill Hickman. Brigham’s avenging
[54:47] Barbara: Wild Bill Hickman. Yeah. Um, Bill Hickman and
[54:50] Michelle: like, like reading his book is part of what I did as I was studying and while, you know, you have to take everything with a grain of salt when you look up these things and we know that there was this obvious, obvious pattern of blaming things on the Indians. Right? Like that. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, when we see who, like Almon Babbitt and John W Long and, and you listed some others in the book, the father and son, I can’t think of their names. Um, that were like, like, like murders were happening and then this, you know, the, the Timpanogos tribe that were wiped out, like it seems that there was some, um, well, because Brigham Young, even after Almon Babbitt was killed by, by Indians, right? Which doesn’t make any sense to me that, no, it doesn’t.
[55:38] Barbara: No, no, it makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, he was, he was his, his, uh, wagon company was wiped out, um, on the planes by a group of Indians. So, I’m not, those kinds of things happened. Yeah.
[55:50] Michelle: Right. But we have Brigham bragging about it and kind of using it as threats for other people that were inconvenient to him. So, so it’s,
[55:57] Michelle: huh, I’ve never
[55:58] Barbara: heard that. So, you’re, you’re more an expert on that than I am.
[56:02] Michelle: No, I’m not. And maybe, and maybe I’ll find something I don’t want anyway. So it, so it just raises flags, red flags to me, you know, like that these things could have been happening and I guess that’s why I come to, it’s like did brig didn’t, well, it’s like more important to understand who he was and I think that this strategy was so important to him, you know, that it’s, and, and I think so. So I want to talk about this letter because you point out a couple of things in the book that I’m looking for. But I see a pattern in Brigham Young. I’m, I’m studying polygamy in depth, right? And there’s often a tendency to, well, and also studying the history because when I, what I see in the history, the historical process that Brigham Young went through, they’ve really, really altered the history to tell the story that they wanted to tell that brig, that he calls it the new order of things. And so I see for me a pattern of sort of using letters or even journal entries to tell the story he wants to tell, to put it in the record to try to shape history if that makes sense. And so a couple of examples from the book, oh, go ahead. Did you
[57:05] Michelle: have now, I’m,
[57:06] Barbara: I’m very suspicious of like theories that how people wrote things in their journals that they didn’t, they just said this wrote this to cover themselves, but that’s not what really happened or people put this in a letter so that later they could say, oh, like I just, yeah, as a historian, I don’t, I don’t think that’s how people behave, like pretend to write things in journals that years later might throw people off. Does that make sense? So,
[57:38] Michelle: yes, yes. II I think I hear what you’re saying. I’m looking at it specifically with Brigham Young with how he was using the journals and how he was. So let me give you one example and, and we can move on if this is, you know. No, that’s great. Let’s let’s talk about it. OK. This is from chapter 10 of your book and it’s um so Brigham’s friend um Bell, what’s his first name? Um John Bell or Bell will be William Bell. So he’s getting ready to leave and um and Brigham he wants safe passage. So it says Young soon wrote Southern Utah leader Isaac leaders, Isaac Hate and John D Lee about the Bell Company just over a month had passed since Young heard Lee’s account of the massacre. And Young’s letter made clear that he did not want the bell train raided. So William Bell, the William Bell, the letter began a person with whom you are both well acquainted would soon be passing through Southern Utah to California. As the Indians beyond you are reported to be somewhat troublesome and hostile to travelers. Young wrote in a veiled reference, I wish you to procure for Mr Bell and, and all the company, the services of an interpreter and a good Indian. He suggested Jacob Hamblin. And anyway, so, so he’s saying, hey, in this letter that, you know, the natives are restless,
[58:51] Barbara: young, young knows he’s been encouraging cattle rating that right when he’s writing this letter. And so he’s just very careful about it as we’ve heard that the Indians have been, you know, that there’s been troubles with Indians further south, please make sure that they pass through safely. And then he says, I want this company to pass through with all their effects, right? So it’s clear I don’t
[59:16] Michelle: want the Indians to
[59:18] Barbara: rating of no rating of this company. Yeah.
[59:21] Michelle: Right.
[59:22] Michelle: So that’s one example of a letter where it’s, you know, like and there’s, and then, and then in his journal, so you talk about this as well. This is Brigham Young’s jo this is from chapter three on September 1st. His diary is another example of, I think how he could sometimes be, you know, create these false narratives. And so I think it says the Southern Utah Indians spend about an hour with young. And so, um Hamlin had brought, uh, brought a train from Southern Utah and then when they got there, they were met with young and Huntington in Young’s office for about an hour. In that meeting, Huntington said I, I gave them all the cattle that had gone to California the south route. So he’s telling them all of those trains, you guys attack those and get all the cattle. The Indians, the Indians opened their eyes wide and surprised responding. You have told us not to steal. So I have Huntington answered, but now they have come to fight us and you for when they kill us, they will kill you. The native leaders replied, they were afraid to fight the Americans and so would raise grain and let the Mormons fight it out with the army. This was a typical and wise response from Utah. Indigenous leaders see these are the things that make me love this book that like honesty and respect. I just, I love that sentence so much. And it’s so true. In mid August, ghost shoots had told Huntington they was afraid of the troops and would go home and wait and see how the battle turned out. The Mormon rebuttal was always the same if the troops killed us they would kill them and it’s just, they were so using the Native Americans, they were trying to get them to do it and then blaming them and, you know, it was just awful and this is, they kill
[1:00:59] Barbara: us. Yeah. Sorry, this is a point we make in the book and also when we speak that, that, um, native Americans were also victimized. Yeah, I think
[1:01:07] Michelle: so because they will kill us. They’ll kill, they would kill them. Huntington said I told them they was, um, that they and the Mormons was one but the Lord had thrown out the gentiles away. So that this is the part though the Native American. So though the native leaders expressed, expressed reluctance to fight young, recorded in his September 1st diary, a spirit seems to be taking possession of the Indians to assist Israel. I can hardly restrain them from Exterminating the Americans. That’s that same day. So that’s what I’m talking about. That’s like I see what
[1:01:38] Barbara: you’re saying. Yeah. Yeah. So in, in one thing, so with the first quotations, you’re sharing, those are from Dimock, Huntington’s journal. OK. So that’s how dim Huntington sees it. And then we say, OK, this is what young wrote that day. This is how he sees it. So was Huntington who was translating young, didn’t speak these native languages. Did Huntington then turn to young and say, oh, yeah, they’re gonna go do this. We don’t know.
[1:02:08] Michelle: Oh OK. Yeah.
[1:02:09] Barbara: So whether whether Young, that’s what he really believed or whether he’s just like, well, I think this is what they’re gonna do is just, you just can’t be clear, you can only just say what they wrote, you know.
[1:02:20] Michelle: And right, and I guess I see the pattern of, of how I think that Brigham Young shaped narratives intentionally to try to tell his story. Yeah. So, so back to this and, and, you know, and, and again, I, I, but back to this letter, I think what’s interesting and we don’t, I, I, you know, I, I know he is not saying yes, kill all of them. But I think this is what I think, I think they know how important this strategy is to him and know that they’re going to be in serious trouble. So I think they’re trying to cover their traps from both tracks, from both Brigham Young and from, you know what I mean? I think they’re don’t want to be caught by either, but I also, I do wonder why. So I did my own, I tried to do a kind of version of a transcript and um I think we can read through it but I know we’re just about out of time. But when I did so interested,
[1:03:15] Barbara: if you want me to, we can, we can talk. Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
[1:03:19] Michelle: I would love to have you come back again. Yes. So the fact that it’s that it says in this, the Indians will do as they please. And, you know, it’s very, um, why did he write that? Because they both knew that the Indians were not attacking that they were because even, uh, I mean, we have Brigham’s journal entry saying I can barely hold them back. But even on the, even on the, um, at the scenes of these crimes, like the, in the native Americans were hesitant, right, they kind of had to be pushed along often by the Mormons to do what the Mormons wanted them to do. Yeah, that’s where I
[1:03:56] Michelle: find the term that
[1:03:57] Barbara: Indians will do as they pleased. Or in this letter, the Indians we expect will do as they please. So this is that that phrase that’s been coming up again and again and again, as young is expounding on this strategy. So in his August 16th 16th address in the Salt Lake Tabernacle, he says it over and over and over again. I will no longer hold the Indians back if the troops come here. But I will say to them, go and do as you please. So and then he’s, he’s writing this in letters to Washington, he’s saying it to William Bell. He’s like, you know, so the he he’s using that phrase over and over and over again. So that’s where that phrase comes from. So so and and again, according to the witnesses who saw this letter from hate going to Young, they’re saying that it said that the Indians had a group of immigrants pinned down at the mountain meadows and asking what we should do with them. So young probably does understand that these immigrants are under Indian attack. He also, but like you said, though, he also knows he’s been encouraging cattle raiding, um, by Indians. So, yeah, I
[1:05:19] Michelle: think he’s being
[1:05:19] Barbara: careful. You’re right. Like he’s not like going out and saying, well, yeah, this is part of my policy. I know we’ve been encouraging this, you know, he’s not being real forthcoming that way. Yeah. So there’s a lot in between the lines. You, you’re
[1:05:31] Michelle: right him writing in a letter. So we just have the letter he wrote to hate and Lee saying, hey, I don’t want the Indians to attack this wagon train in November, right? And, and now we have this letter to hate and Lee right to hate saying the Indians will do as they please. But I don’t want any Mormons involved in it. So it feels to me that it’s like I can’t, there are other parts of it that I can’t explain. But that’s the main sentence that I’m like, that’s problematic because they both know that the native Americans aren’t doing this. That’s the he’s saying if
[1:06:07] Michelle: you are,
[1:06:08] Barbara: no, they are, there are native Americans involved in this attack on September 7th? Yeah. But
[1:06:14] Michelle: it was a, wasn’t it, um, like, what, what weren’t they, weren’t they involved in it? Because the Mormons asked them to be involved in it and encourage 100%.
[1:06:24] Barbara: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
[1:06:26] Michelle: And so that’s what I’m saying. Like, it wasn’t the natives doing this, it was the native, like, it was the Mormons doing it being blamed on the
[1:06:33] Michelle: native. Right. Yeah. The
[1:06:34] Barbara: Mormons. And again, with Mormons, many of these, these, um, uh, pipes were probably baptized Mormons. That’s why I’m really careful to say white Mormons. Um, but, yeah, so the White Mormons were instigating and orchestrating this absolutely 100%. And they are, and, you know, we have the, the various accounts from native Americans who, when they’re interviewed about this, they say we, you know, they came to us and asked us to come be involved in this so we could get all the cattle and the spoils
[1:07:05] Michelle: and then they felt like they got ripped off after the fact. Anyway, I didn’t break it there. Ok. So I, I have so many more things I know that you are an expert on post manifesto polygamy, which I, I’m just dying to talk to you about. But I know
[1:07:20] Barbara: that too.
[1:07:21] Michelle: Yeah.
[1:07:22] Michelle: Well, you’re out of time for today. Is that right? For today?
[1:07:26] Barbara: But I’m happy to come
[1:07:27] Michelle: back and do it.
[1:07:28] Michelle: I would love to have you come back. Can I ask you one question in closing? I just one thing that I’m trying to help, like I, I agree with you so much like we don’t need to be afraid of our history. We need to look it in the face and I use the word, you use the word I use the word repent, you know, like, like, like we need to accept it and grapple with it and see what it teaches us in a huge part so that we don’t perpetuate it, right? When we keep denying
[1:07:53] Michelle: it, we the
[1:07:54] Barbara: mistakes of the past.
[1:07:56] Michelle: Absolutely.
[1:07:57] Michelle: Yeah. And so so, and you’re an expert in doing this. And I would love to just have you explained to the listeners how you sort of reconcile with your faith, how do you know these things about history and still like, how do you navigate that with the
[1:08:17] Michelle: question that I had
[1:08:18] Barbara: to think a lot about this? Of course, because it is very, very troubling to learn that this happened and that this was committed by members of my church. And also I, we didn’t get into this but years after I started writing budgets is mine. I discovered I was a descendant of a perpetrator.
[1:08:37] Michelle: Oh, that’s heavy. OK.
[1:08:39] Michelle: Yeah. So
[1:08:43] Barbara: as a historian of American history, I’m also incredibly troubled by our history of slavery and the enslavement of black people. It’s, it’s hideous. Anyone who studied hideous. It’s hideous. I’m deeply troubled by the genocide
[1:09:06] Michelle: that we didn’t talk about the Battle Creek that
[1:09:08] Barbara: was committed against native Americans. I’m deeply troubled by continued racism in our country. Um But yet I’m an American and Yeah, I love my country and I will always be an American. And so studying the history of my church is no different. There are things about my church’s history. I’m just appalled by primarily the Mount Meadows Massacre. Um, the racism, I mean, there’s so much in our church’s history, our nation’s history and world history that is, is really troubling. Um And then I condemn um, but it’s still my identity. I’m still a Mormon. I’m still an American. I’m still a human. Um The important thing is just, is just, just being willing to learn of these things and condemn them and be against them and then, um just call them out as these things happen and they were wrong and, and standing against them today like I’m, I stand against um extremism in all its form, I stand against racism. Um So that’s, that’s how I deal with history all history if that,
[1:10:28] Michelle: that’s beautiful. So, and, and I think another thing I like to remember is that it’s not the whole story, it’s part of the story, but it’s not the whole nobody, nobody is only their worst characteristics or their best characteristics and no institutions
[1:10:42] Barbara: either. I mean, there are so many things about my church that I love my church’s history, there are so many things about our nation’s history that are, I mean, even with all of the hideous things that have happened and continue to happen in the United States, it’s still a wonderful country and I’m so grateful for the freedoms that I do have here. Do we have a long way to go and things to change? Of course? And do we continue, need to continue to stand up for what is right. Absolutely. And, and hopefully continue to make, uh, changes for the better. Um, so, so, yeah, history is messy and, um, we just, the, the main thing is just to not be afraid of history. It is what it is, don’t be afraid of it. Um And just be willing to learn about it and grapple with it, engage with it and be willing to just be sorry for things that were done wrong in the past.
[1:11:35] Michelle: That was beautiful. Thank you so much and thank you for giving me so much of your time and
[1:11:40] Michelle: thank you,
[1:11:41] Barbara: thank you for having me and I’d love to come back and to talk more Michelle.
[1:11:46] Michelle: I so appreciate Barbara’s straightforwardness and honesty and just her curiosity, all of these things. I really love talking to people like this and appreciate the work that they do. I’m really thankful that she was open to let me bring forward some new ideas or perspectives and things that we talked about. I know that there, I, I would have loved to talk to her for three hours. So I’m really looking forward to our next conversation and I want to again, thank all of you who are sticking with me on this journey. I know many of you are very eager for the Temple episode. My hope is that I can get it ready to um do next week. That might be tricky. There’s a lot going on behind the scenes. But um with any luck, I’ll have that. If not, I have a fantastic two part conversation with my friend Whitney Horning that I think. Well, I love it. I loved talking to her for over four hours and I hope that you will all like it as well. And then the Temple episode will be after that. Well, the endowment episode I still have multiple episodes to do on the temple. I am buried in topics. So anyway, thank you for sticking with me. Please know that I am working as hard as I possibly can to bring these out as quickly and as thoroughly as I possibly can. So, thank you again for your support for your viewership and thank you to those who have helped and donated. I appreciate it more than I can say. So, thanks for being here. I will see you next time.
