Karen’s Video: Woe Unto You, Scribes: The Hidden History of Polygamy
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Mormon Polygamy Discussion Group
First LDS Polygamist: Joseph or Brigham? by Rob Fotheringham
Episode 83: Why It Matters – with Heather and Lisa
Transcript
[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon Polygamy. I am so excited to bring you this conversation with my dear friend Karen Hyatt. I hope all of you have had a chance to watch her incredible documentary that just was released on Thursday. So many people said this couldn’t be done. There’s too much information to release in one two-hour documentary. And while that is true, Karen did an incredible job. Of course, she could not. Go deep on every topic because that’s not what it’s about. But I, I am so excited to have this documentary. It is incredibly well done. And I’m really excited for this conversation where Karen shared a lot of behind the scenes information where we got to discuss this topic in depth. I always love conversations where we learn new things while we’re talking, and that definitely happened in this discussion. So I’m so happy to share it with you. Thank you for joining us. I am here again with my fairy god producer Karen. That’s just what I’ve called her for this whole year. You’ve been doing this year and a half almost year something. It’s been a while. I can keep track. But I hope that you guys have had a chance to watch her documentary. It is. Amazing. It’s so good. It’s exactly what we have been needing. So, um, so Karen and I actually had planned when we had our little short conversation to record our longer conversation for today, but, um, Karen wanted to take a little more time to get some clips. And also, I should say, some of you noticed I was outside yesterday. I am in a completely different space today. The lighting is not as good and it’s, um, these are, I, I heard it in my pictures back up, but yes, the, um, the house needs some. Improvements, so some repairs. So I’m in a different, uh, makeshift studio in the meantime. So in case anyone was wondering why it was outside, why now. Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you. So, anyway, but, um, the important part is I invited Karen to come on. We this, um, documentary has been long awaited. You’ve been working on this for how many months now? 10 months. Yeah. In addition to editing my videos. Thank you. She has been doing this documentary. And I’m so glad. It was, I think it was since for my anniversary episode, I did the theological, and then I was going to do the historical, like the Joseph Smith. And I just, it, it was hard. I mean, it’s
[02:22] Karen Hyatt: hard. Yeah, it’s kind of like, here’s the receipts. Like I’m trying, I’ve tried really hard not to connect dots for people, just like let them do it themselves. I was just like, here’s the stuff, do what you want with it.
[02:34] Michelle: Yeah. And that’s why we need so many people because Because trying to do a weekly episode doesn’t lend itself to doing it, to putting that much time into one documentary. But, but Karen put 10 months of like full-time work into this, and it shows it’s amazing. So you go ahead and tell us what you want, and then I have several questions. OK? I’ll tell you my first question, then you can tell us. I’m just wondering how you made the decisions of what to include, what not to include, and how you scripted it to go in the order. Like, I just thought. I, I was sitting there going, this is brilliant. It’s brilliant. I, I was like, oh my gosh, she’s brilliant and so much inspiration.
[03:11] Karen Hyatt: There you go. That’s that one word, just there’s no way I could have done it by myself. Like, you need that like in like what will follow this and all of a sudden some clicks or something occurs to me. I’m like, Oh, that’s right. That was in there. That’s a good bridge or whatever. So it is, it’s really hard to do. Um, but hold on, I brought something because I think it’s so funny, and I, I’m probably just gonna save them forever because it makes me laugh so much. All these papers, do you see all these different different. But it’s on each, yeah, each subject. It was like. It was like Heber and the 1000 Wives, and, you know, um, John C. Bennett, wow, each one of these things. And so I had them all laid out on the floor,
[03:50] Michelle: each little snippet on the paper.
[03:52] Karen Hyatt: I couldn’t do it on a digital anything because there were so there were hundreds, that’s like a couple 100. And so, um, they were just all, I put them all out on the floor. And just started putting like things together. And then I, when they were kind of
[04:09] Michelle: the game of like memory. Oh,
[04:13] Karen Hyatt: I’d never do it on like a spreadsheet or something. It just wouldn’t work. So I had to do it on the floor, and I would step back and take a picture once I had them grouped, you know, and then go and type it up in their groups. And so, yeah, that’s, there’s probably a better way to do. That, but that’s what worked for me.
[04:29] Michelle: So, well, that’s what you did. I know this is Karen’s 2nd documentary, right? You did one kind of on exactly the same way. And you did it the same way. So you knew your system that works for you.
[04:39] Karen Hyatt: It worked the first time. So I was like, OK, we’re just gonna do that again. And, um, yeah, when I did it the first time, and I, I, uh, I remember I was at my mother-in-law’s house with all these papers for that first documentary. And My kids were like, What are you doing? Like, this is
[04:55] Michelle: gonna take over her house.
[04:57] Karen Hyatt: And it was just all over the, and they go, This is ridiculous. And I said, Yeah, that’s fine. Get to work. Find stuff that are the same and put them together and help me. And so they did, and it, it ended up grouped all nicely, and they were shocked, you know, they were like, I can’t believe that worked. And I took a picture of it. So I did the same thing. And so
[05:13] Michelle: you knew what you needed and where. OK, that’s amazing. Well, yeah, and it is. Don’t you guys think like it just is seamless. You just tied it. I was like. Oh my God. I mean, I think it’s one of those things, like you have to be a master violinist to hear a violinist and get the nuances and see how good that mastery is, right? Same thing with ballet. Like, and I, I, yes, I, I’m like, I feel like I, I can critique this so well. I just, I was like, it’s so good. Yeah. Thank you. So. You did a really good job. Yeah, you go ahead. Was there anything else you wanted to say before. Yeah, ask away. So I love also, so for those who haven’t watched it, it really does do a good job of just establishing, it can’t go deep into anything, right? Because it’s just giving, giving what you need to know, like, like starters guide to the polygamy question. And even with that, you included each of the wives, the post wives. Talk to me about that
[06:10] Karen Hyatt: decision. I absolutely had to. I just wanted to, and, and you say each of the wives, and that’s so funny because every historian has their own list, and there’s no, there’s no good documentation. So they’re all picking and choosing. Well, I don’t believe her, but I do believe her. And the other one’s a, well, I do believe her, but not. And it’s, it’s just a, it’s pretty random, like some think he had over 50 wives and whatever. But, um, Brian Hayes, I chose to focus on his estimates because He, you know, we rely, yeah, the church relies on him so heavily, and he’s the one on interviews all the time and he’s got the website, which is really a really helpful website. Yeah, yeah, it’s conclusions that are the problem for me.
[06:50] Michelle: It’s the same as the Joseph Smith. Well, they’re Joseph Smith papers is infinitely better than Brighton Hill’s website, but, and it has a lot less narrative and it has much better um. Um, it’s just, it’s just a higher quality. They don’t put, um, they don’t count things as evidence that are just repeating something else. They just put the original things. There, there are a million reasons, but still it’s just the narrative that’s the problem,
[07:12] Karen Hyatt: right?
[07:13] Michelle: And the
[07:13] Karen Hyatt: conclusions and it’s like, well, that’s what I don’t agree with, but thank you for sharing these things. You know what I mean? But
[07:19] Michelle: um the other huge problem with Brian Hill’s website, I just have to say, is it only has one site. It’s very blatant about what it includes and what it doesn’t. And the Joseph Smith papers gives us everything from Joseph Smith’s life, and that is really helpful.
[07:31] Karen Hyatt: Yeah. So Brian Hailes has 35 likely wives on his site. So I just took each of those 35 wives. And, and I thought, this is so funny because when people watch this, they will think that I cherry picked his lousiest information. But I did not, right? Like, I looked through each wife and all the stuff he had, and I picked the best ones. It’s not gonna look like that because they’re so flimsy. It’s so bad. But I put what I felt was the strongest, like the most. You know, the, the earliest claims or whatever like that, but some of them just didn’t have early claims. The earliest was 1904. So that’s what went on. I was like, You’re kidding me? Like, to me, his website is a testimony to Joseph’s truthfulness. I mean, it’s just, it’s so, but yeah, the evidences are so frail, and I was shocked and that that’s what made me want to do this so bad is just Looking at what he considered good evidence and feeling the exact opposite. And I thought, I think normal people, normal’s not probably the right word. Your average non-researcher would be like, that’s ridiculous, right? So, um, can I tell you, so the first, well, how I got introduced to this was to this day, I don’t know why it popped up on my YouTube, uh, suggestions, but it was Rob Fotheringham. So many of us have seen, because he did such a good job. And it was the, who was the first polygamist, uh, Brigham Young or Joseph Smith. And so we watched that. It’s like an hour and a half or something, but I mean, he had all the receipts. And I’ve told this story before, but he didn’t have links in his description box or whatever. But he had some of the screenshots that he had taken, had the little URL at the top. And so I was there squinting at. Typing into my computer. Yeah. Well, and read me the, read me what it says, XRQ, you know, the crazy U and I type it in and it would come up and it was like, my gosh, it’s all seriously legit. Brigham really said that. Joseph really said that. And I was done. Like that was it for me.
[09:35] Michelle: And I think that I think would be, well, no, you finished your story and then let that
[09:39] Karen Hyatt: thought’s done. I, I just thought, you know, it. It just clicked. I mean, I saw it and I was like, oh, yeah, that makes so much more sense. And it just, the universe clicked and the synopsis fired and I was so excited. And, and I was done. So it’s, it’s a very empirical process. It’s just like, oh, I saw the receipts and I’m done with the old idea now.
[09:58] Michelle: Done. Yeah, cool. You work that way, and it’s really impressive. One of the things I’m concerned about, and I’ve said this to you, I need to restart my Facebook group. Maybe we’ll do that, the moment polygamy discussion, Facebook group, because I think people need to go somewhere to, um, to think through this with other people, right? Because one of the challenges is this information is so clear and so basic, right? And people will get it and go, Oh. And then the other voices come in of complication and confusion and saying, no, because the leader says this and that right and all that endless compass come. Um, complication that isn’t, uh, it’s kind of like I compare it to, you get an inspiration from the Lord, right? And that first thought, I should do this. And then it’s like, no, because you have to do that and no, because they’ll think this way and this that’s right, you get that like all of those other voices coming in. I find that to be the case on these kinds of topics where it’s like, here’s a clear presentation of truth. And then boom, boom, boom, right? And so that’s what I’m, I, I guess I’m wanting to nurture people through that the best we can, to where it’s like, here it is. Here’s the truth. And a lot of people will go, Whoa, but it might shake them up, right? And so yeah, so I think it’ll be good. Maybe if, if we all go and join that Facebook group again, I think it’s called Um, I’ll look it up and I’ll be able to tell you. And, and I will take, uh, maybe I can take Mormon out of the name. I did Mormon polygamy because it’s historical, but I don’t, I, I want this to be a safe nurturing place that members don’t feel, oh no, I’m afraid, you know, but go ahead. So I,
[11:29] Karen Hyatt: yeah, I don’t know. Um, everyone’s different, but the friends that I’ve shared this with are super happy about it. Like they, you know, I, I go, guess what? Did you, like, have you guys seen the Joseph Smith Papers Project? Do you know what that is? I just tell them, yeah, all these original documents are scanned, like 10,000. It’s like amazing. And it turns out, Joseph never practiced or preached or advocated pulling in any way. And they’re always like, what? And so, um, and that spurs some questions. Like one friend said, Well, but you can see his wife’s pictures when you go to the Church History Museum. So, like, how does work. And I was like, I know, right? Except for not one of them ever said anything until 25 years after he died. And she’s like, Whoa. So they’re not, um, and I, and I always say, like, I know this opens up another can of worms, a different can of worms. I get it. But I’d rather grapple with that that’s real than the other that’s not real.
[12:23] Michelle: Yeah. That’s what’s frustrating to me. It’s feeling like so many people are saying, you can’t say that because of all of this, right? Because there’s baggage attached to it. And I, I’m like, that’s why it is so like shocking and, and really obnoxious when people keep accusing us of motivated reasoning. Because we’re not the ones with motivated reasoning. We’re saying, let’s look at the truth and we’ll deal with any fallout, once we have the truth. And that’s exactly what God does, right? And so the longer that we sit there and go, we can’t look at this because of all of our fear of what it would mean. And frankly, I think that’s what faith is. I’ve said this repeatedly. Faith is all in things which are not seen, which are true. So if we have faith in God, then we know that God can handle truth. Right? Like God’s not afraid of us investigating with sincerity and honest hearts. And so when we start looking into it, we can take any little question it might bring up to God, right? But to continue to like, hold on to This abomination, which most many of the people fighting against it are current polygamists or are people who are very, um, bullish on polygamy if they are members of the church. I think like you said, the word normal and maybe that’s just like just are are are are are like the standard members of the church, right, who are just love the church, serve, do their callings, read their scriptures, right? I don’t think that they are, um, like you can. Let’s say that, right? It takes other voices coming in and convincing them that this is something to be afraid of. And so, so that’s why I think, like, I, I, I guess what I’m wanting, why I wanted this documentary so much, is to help us with missionary work, is to, you know, like, like, I think that the continuing with the research is important. Um, getting deeper and deeper into our understanding is really valuable. But it’s so much more valuable to also keep Doing that while we are having ways to bring new people to this understanding, right? To do the missionary work. So that’s what I’m hoping is that people will spread out. But then also, I feel like we need that support. This is the Facebook group that people have been asking about this for a long time. And this is the Facebook group I started Clearback. I want to see in 2015, but I’ll have to look at when it actually was. Maybe it was 20 or it was 2015, 2016, that time period, after I had studied this. A couple of years. And it did just like hurt my brain. I mean, I mean, I mean, it made you go, Wait, what? This is, and, and I was much more, um, pro polygamy. I can’t say pro polygamy. I, I was much more, um, on the polygamy bandwagon than the average member because my and my, yeah, and then, and then as a homeschooling mom, and I had gotten into these communities and I had heard like the AUB, um, explanations of polygamy, and they all sounded totally legitimate to me with What I understood so so so I think that I was more um open to polygamy than most than your average member, right? That’s like you said, the normal people and um and so, so it shook me up more than the normal person would because I didn’t have objections to it because I just had heard these stories. I thought there are things I don’t understand. So I started this group and I think what we will need are a few people to come in and be moderators. We’ve had. Um, I had another friend be a moderate moderator with me for years. So if anyone would like to join this group, I will just start adding people to it. And if anyone would like to volunteer to be a moderator, let me know, because that would be really helpful. And let’s just use this as the place to discuss this, um, this entire thing. Like, you know, for anyone that we’re sharing this with, we can tell them to join this group. If anyone has suggestions of a different name, if you know, it’s, but the historic Mormon. Polygamy. And so, so we can just start joining this group and get the conversation going here on this specific topic that I think would be helpful. So there’s that group and we’ll start adding people. Let me know if you want to be a moderator for it because that would be helpful because I, it hasn’t been going because I just haven’t had time to moderate it. Sounds good. Yeah. And then what were you gonna say? You were gonna say something so
[16:28] Karen Hyatt: play the end of this. She’s not seen, so she’s seen this. I gave it to her, of course, immediately to, you know, get her feedback and stuff. But I made a change yesterday morning, the morning
[16:40] Michelle: that you guys have seen it.
[16:41] Karen Hyatt: Yeah, so anybody that’s watched it, you’ve seen a little bit that she, she hasn’t seen the ending.
[16:46] Michelle: the interview, it might be the new interview. Oh, did you see? I have seen the interview is that what you did with Ben. Oh shoot. I, I actually messaged him
[16:57] Karen Hyatt: you’re in trouble because you should have told me about that because all my work. I was, I was, I was so elated at the stuff he said blatantly right there. Like, this is changing and we’re gonna see a lot of our old traditions go away. And I was like,
[17:17] Michelle: I immediately out. I immediately, we’re Facebook friends now, and I messaged him. He hasn’t responded to my message, which is a little telly. He, Ben Stockman, I think, has probably some other issues that he’s thinking about. Yeah, sure, sure. And the fact is, what he is saying is true across the board. If anyone who has watched it, I put it off of it. OK, so we’re going to play a clip from the documentary and it is the Ben Stockman clip, right?
[17:45] Karen Hyatt: OK. In 1973, an army physician named Lester Bush wrote a scholarly article demonstrating that the race-based priesthood ban was not instituted by Joseph Smith, as had been presumed for over 100 years, but by Brigham Young. Bush was not an accredited historian, yet his article was widely read, and scholars today believe the article played an important role in the lifting of the ban five years later, since, as President Nelson has wisely noted, good inspiration is based on good information. Might we be on the verge of another such pivotal moment in our history? Church historian Ben Spackman believes that change is coming.
[18:31] Ben Spackman: This is kind of a part of my research about how do you teach better history to students when the inaccurate history has been taught to them by official sources from the pulpit from the pulpit. Correlation, which oversees all of the all of these things, never said, hold up, we need to check the older sources because that’s not their job, they’re not historians down in the. Archives Hu expertise can have an effect on how apostles preach and how they understand. Even inspired prophets and apostles are dependent on their human knowledge and traditions. Elder McConie preached that, BH Roberts preached that, um, That’s been very clear in church preaching, but I’m not sure it’s always filtered down to us, and we have these ideas about how prophets work and what they know. Human expertise matters. We need the best expertise we can, and we’re gonna draw on it officially and formally, and we’re gonna encourage it. Context and the best information is kind of important for building lasting faith. And here’s what I think. We are now in a spot in Church history Where, uh, I would apply what, uh, Elder Faust called unlearning, things that we think we know that aren’t actually true, right? And I think we’re in a place now where the church is mature enough and established enough and confident enough that under the direction of prophets and apostles, we are looking at the best expertise possible in a variety of fields to say, What did we inherit that is not well grounded in divine truth or in the best human expertise we have? Um, we saw that a little bit back in 1978. There was a famous article that came out that argued There wasn’t any evidence that the priest had ban went back to Joseph Smith, who in fact ordained several black men. And there’s not hard evidence, but there’s really good circumstantial evidence that President Kimball read that article and marked it up. If so, that human expertise at least helped remove some of the tradition that said, well, this goes back to a revelation of Joseph Smith, which we now know. was absolutely not the case. I suspect as we examine more of our inherited traditions, We’re going to move away from some of them.
[21:00] Michelle: That’s so amazing. Is that the part you wanted to play? I cannot believe it came out right, right before your documentary. And I, I, of course, wasn’t gonna say, Karen, you have to add this to your documentary.
[21:13] Karen Hyatt: It was amazing because it was, you know, it was ready to go yesterday morning. I thought I would post it around
[21:19] Michelle: 1140. On Friday, this was released on Thursday, and we’re planning to release it until Thursday
[21:25] Karen Hyatt: morning, late morning or whatever. And then my son came home from work and, um, he’s living with us temporarily. And we were just, uh, playing a quick game of cards while he ate his lunch. And I said, Oh, there’s something I had queued up on YouTube I wanted to listen to. And I put that on. And heard him stop, I couldn’t even play cards. Like I lost everything because I was like, what are you doing? Are you kidding me? And I was so excited. I was like, Oh no, no, that’s going in. And my son was literally like, Stop dancing, please stop dancing.
[21:57] Michelle: Do
[21:57] Karen Hyatt: you hear what he’s saying? Like,
[21:59] Michelle: this
[21:59] Karen Hyatt: is the best news ever. Like, we are,
[22:02] Michelle: I think he did, he did. say, the egg is cracked open. We can’t, like,
[22:06] Karen Hyatt: I pray for leaders at every level to have their hearts softened their minds opened, and to be courageous and just to have the courage that they need because they need courage too. Their great grandparents were polygamists. It’s very painful for them. I get it. I totally, uh. And so I absolutely pray. And so when he said that, I was thrilled.
[22:36] Michelle: That’s so great. I, that’s what, in a recent conversation I was having with a church employed historian who was kindly, um, engaging with me a bit, and I appreciate it. And I asked him to watch my 2 year anniversary of the God is not a polygamist one where I really do try to lay out the theological case. And, um, and so he watched that, which I appreciated, but he responded and said that one of his wife’s responses was like, how dare she say this about my ancestors, right? And I understand that. Like, like, that’s a genuine sentiment. But I can’t help but go to the Antoni Lehas. Right? The Book of Mormon. What is it we are wanting to, like, what is it we constantly say? They were willing to, first of all, recognize it, but then forsake the false traditions of their fathers, right? So for us to, like, it’s, it’s shocking to me how we just don’t liken our scriptures to ourselves and say, if my great, great, great grandparents. Did it because most people, it’s not as close in their genealogy as it is in mine, right? It’s like back there, if they did it, then it was right. And that is so surprising to me when we have the anti-ife Lehis who themselves have been sinful and all of their ancestors, all the way back to their first father layman, right? And they were willing to repent of that. I, I’ve, I’ve said this before. I, that’s another thing I said in this conversation to this, this really good man who’s in his historian, I said, you know, I don’t think that our ancestors want us to be saying, if they did it, we are doing it too, or if they did it, we believe it. I think that what they want us to do is to do better than they did, right? To recognize what they did that was that where they were deceived. I know that as a parent, I certainly don’t want my children to be like, if mom did it this way, I’m doing it this way, because mom was perfect in everything, right? I’d much rather have my children take the good. And there is so much good from our ancestors to take their truly their sacrifice, their work ethic, their love for the Lord, their faith. I mean, so much good. And there’s some not very good. There are some really negative relics of polygamy. Like when I started to talk to my mom and some of my, because my mom’s mother was the oldest daughter of polygamist. She grew up in it. She knew both of the wives, right? They knew Aunt Aggie and their grandma, right? And so, um, they, they knew it, and my mom was able to share a lot of what that culture kind of was and has been. They never talked about things. It was a very hush hush. You couldn’t say any of your feelings. You couldn’t, you know, it was very, um, the story started to come out of my Um, great grandmother that just break my heart that like of her rocking her babies late at night when she was alone, saying, mine, mine, because nothing was ever hers, right? They were their babies and I, I mean, many, many, and some of the jealousies. Anyway, we have a lot of cultural, sorry, I’m going off. I’m just, we have a lot of cultural baggage that we need to let go. And I think our ancestors would I be thrilled if we did that. I truly believe that. So that’s what I’m hoping. Sorry, I went off on that whole thing. I just think it’s really interesting to think about the objections that people have and how we can best help them through them, right? Because
[25:50] Karen Hyatt: it’s gonna be different for everybody.
[25:52] Michelle: It is. It’s going to
[25:52] Karen Hyatt: be people are like super thrilled, you know, I’ve got, I have one friend that she said, um. She said, Well, I have a shotgun, so we’re not doing polygamy in our house. And you know, that was the end of that. And and that, of course, she’s, it’s so funny and she’s funny. But in all seriousness, like for most of my friends, they’re, they think like me, like, no, if it’s something that’s real, I’m going to do it. Yeah. And so a lot of us like Lisa and Heather both, it was such a good episode.
[26:21] Michelle: Yeah, we’ll link it matters that
[26:23] Karen Hyatt: and um it’s so terrific because like. I wanted to do what God wanted me to do. And it seems horrific, but it’s like, uh, he’s #1 over everything. And it’s in the scriptures and it’s like, OK, so I guess this is a thing. So I, you know, worked and it was like, OK, I, I trust him so much. Like I got OK with it. Like I got all right with it, to, to the point that I was like, I can do this with his help, just like Lisa did. And I love that because after that, then he’s like, OK, thank you for It’s Abraham. And now I will give you your ram in the thicket, which is this nice Rob Fatheringham video. It’s not a thing. And I was like, this rocks. So it was fantastic. So I got both, you know, I was, I do understand completely when you, um, just want to put him first, and you’re like, so these people that are, well, you’re just not up to it. You just can’t handle it. I was like, no, I, I’m, I was ready to handle it. I’m good. But I was on board.
[27:22] Michelle: I’m
[27:23] Karen Hyatt: super happy to not have to.
[27:25] Michelle: Yeah, I didn’t see, I didn’t see inside. I thought, oh, it’ll be wonderful when we are living the full truth of the gospel. We can have all of the blessings. Jesus can come back again. That is what I thought. So when people say that I’m just doing this because I have told you I’m like, no, don’t underestimate how naive I was. You like, and I see a lot of people that naive still, right? They just don’t understand. And so just today, um, uh, I did a recent interview with that. Quick media guy, um, you know, and I’m, I’m still trying to like, uh, it’s just frustrating because just today, because one of the things he said when I was trying to bring out Jacob chapter 2 verses 31 through 35, which are always ignored, where it explains why God always condemns and forbids polygamy. And it’s because of what it does to the women and children and the children, particularly the women. And Greg told me that’s an emotional argument. And I was like, what in the world? And so just
[28:21] Karen Hyatt: you’re like, Well, God kind of does care about our feelings. It says God is
[28:25] Michelle: saying, women’s feelings matter. Don’t tell me it’s an emotional argument to bring up what it does to the women, when that’s the reason God gives, right? And just today, um, the day we’re recording this, he did a follow-up episode with Brian Hailes because, you know, have me talk first. Then that Brian Hailes respond to what I said. And, uh, my husband was listening to it upstairs as he’s doing some of the work on our home. And I heard, um, Greg and Brian talking about that emotional talking about how I was making an emotional argument. And they’re right, I’m like, we have two men sitting together saying that bringing up the broken hearts of the women and saying this is why God says this is always forbidden, saying that’s an emotional argument. I don’t know what to do,
[29:12] Karen Hyatt: right? Like. Oh, I, I, I just, we’ve talked about this. I just think, I just think that they’re petrified. Oh yeah, and it’s all there and, and, and for Brian Hays, you know, we don’t have the, the motivated reasoning. Like we aren’t sitting there with volumes of stuff about Joseph Smith’s polygamy sitting on the shelf and everything
[29:31] Michelle: they’re really expensive to buy. I would have had to buy one of his volumes again, and that’s not cheap. Is
[29:36] Karen Hyatt: that right? OK. So anyway, it’s like, um, that’s rough. That’s Rough. I mean, I think all his, um, collections are valuable. I think it’s so valuable what he’s done. And it’s OK to say, you know what, my conclusions weren’t quite
[29:51] Michelle: line. But that is what we always say that. That’s why scholarship is great. Like they always say, science changes as new information comes forward. True scholarship, it’s supposed to, what it’s supposed to do is say, there’s new information. We have to pivot to be in a line with new information. What I see happening constantly. is they are pivoting to try to avoid the new information. Like, oh, I loved because you included in your, um, video, many of the things that I got to cover on my channel or that other people have brought up, for example, Brian Hale’s, um, about Joseph Smithsio. And also his, his response to Rob Fotheringham that you included, where he explains, you know, this is why the change to the Journal entry was just bringing it more in alignment with
[30:38] Karen Hyatt: DNC 132, right? We just want it all.
[30:41] Michelle: Right, right, right. Like that. I was so glad you included those things because that’s what I’m talking about. It’s like, we have new information coming forward. Look, this is what the original journal entry said. This is what they changed it to be to to line up with the new revelation that they brought forward. And instead of pivoting to go, oh, we need to account for this, they’re instead going, How do I pivot to get out of the way? The truth that’s coming, so I can just stick with my narrative that I established before the truth was there.
[31:07] Karen Hyatt: It’s a hard way to live. I don’t like, I would hate to have to do that, you know? So it’s like, um, I’m glad I’m completely free to do what I want and change my mind if I need or whatever. It’s, it’s, I think it’s great and it’s very, very peaceful place to just be like, I’ve told my friends, yeah, I’m not sure about that. I don’t know how that works, or whatever. And then a lot of times I do have answers. So, anyway, just nice. To be able to poke around.
[31:30] Michelle: Yeah, so tell me, are there any parts that you had a really, like, what were the last things that that got cut? Like, what were the things that you wished?
[31:38] Karen Hyatt: It’s funny because, because, so Lester Bush, for instance, that article, it’s very hinted by, um, Spencer Kimball’s son, Edward, that he had marked up a copy of Lester Bush’s thing. But when it got down, so that was in there, you know, I said in his personal writings. And then I was like, I can’t show that. Like I can’t concrete document that. So I took it out and it was super painful, that little bit. And then smack his head. So that was just like, thank you. So I just got one in in there.
[32:09] Michelle: I did want to ask cause it’s such a big undertaking. That’s why it’s been so hard. There’s so much. So I want to know like, how you decided what to include. And I guess my first question is, what was like the most painful to to not include? What were the last things that made the cut, that didn’t make the cuts? Foot
[32:25] Karen Hyatt: washings.
[32:29] Michelle: It’s all the stuff.
[32:31] Karen Hyatt: Yeah, OK, because it’s, it’s so damning. But like, OK, so if you don’t know what we’re talking about, so William Clayton was in England and Hebrewsy Kimball preaches to him and converts him to Mormonism. And next thing you know, Clayton has, he’s on a mission, and he’s 50 miles from his wife, which that’s not like today where you can just go home, you drive an hour, and he’s hanging out with um Sarah Crooks. Crooks, yeah. And getting his hair combed by her and his feet washed by
[33:02] Michelle: her. And he was not the only one. No,
[33:05] Karen Hyatt: she
[33:05] Michelle: wasn’t the
[33:05] Karen Hyatt: and, and it was like being washed through, being given ranges and oranges. It’s so bizarre. But then the, the worst part is that his mission journals have, she washed, you know, she combed my hair, then we washed our feet and went to bed. And you’re like, when you say we went to, what do you like, what do you mean? And why? How is she washing your feet? And it’s like super creepy stuff. Like, it sounds so awful and it’s blacked out. The crazy thing is some of the creepy stuff is right there, like, we washed our feet and went to bed, and then stuff is redacted and cross out, you’re like, Well, what was that? If the other was in there. So it is really like damning, but you can’t prove. It’s like, OK, so we washed their feet together and she combed his hair. Like, technically, there’s not anything concrete that I can say. There you go. I mean, I could,
[33:56] Michelle: what we can say is this is in England before any of them claim to have been taught for marriage by Smith, right? We can see, I like, like. Spiritual wifery mischief type stuff clearly in these journals and letters and I will say as as Jeremy Hoop said on my program, we both said if anything like this existed for Joseph Smith, it would be the smoking gun, right? And the fact that we have it for all of these others before Joseph claimed them and claimed it is shocking and, and I hope. Yeah, I, so I, I just, I hope the reasonable members watching this, don’t even need that, right? Like it’s like, so Karen was telling me behind the scenes that when she was having friends come over and they would like see something and then start talking, right? Because they were, they were surprised and she she would be like, wait, you have this. And she called me, she’s like, I need to chill out because I realized that like. Any 5 minutes of the video should be enough for any like regular person, right?
[34:57] Karen Hyatt: It totally is.
[35:00] Michelle: It’s like always says to me, like, can we just be done with this? Like every new thing we find she’s like, OK, done. Hands washed. And it’s like, it’s, it’s, we
[35:08] Karen Hyatt: should be done. Yeah, there were so many times while I was doing this that I would just be so frustrated because I, I’m like, are you kidding me? He said this, and We’re not done with this dumb narrative. When it’s like, you’re using a source, like, like, uh, John C. Bennett. You’re using John C. Bennett, who said, you know, he was a blackguard who slept with hundreds of women. I’m like, that’s your source? Why do I have to debunk this when that’s your source? And then what’s the other one? Is, um, Joseph Jackson. Oh, it’s Joseph Jackson. Bride Hays uses Joseph Jackson. And you know, they rely heavily. I know. So there Times where I was just losing it, like, here’s Joseph Jackson. He had seduced, Joseph Smith boasted to me that he had seduced 400 women. Like, why are you quoting this, dude? Why?
[35:58] Michelle: Why is this of cherry picking, right? I know.
[36:02] Karen Hyatt: Yeah, there’s a part. It’s Elizabeth Davis. I know which wife it is. And there’s Elizabeth never made the claim at all, but Hailes cites page 13 of Joseph Jackson’s Adventures in Navu, right? And, um, you
[36:16] Michelle: that.
[36:17] Karen Hyatt: And in there. And it’s like, and so I looked up page 13, and there’s Elizabeth Davis isn’t on it. So I was like, OK, this is an online copy. The pages don’t match. So where is it? So I do a search and there’s no Elizabeth Davis. Well, Elizabeth, maybe she had a different last name. No Elizabeth. No Davis, no nothing. And on page 13, that was Joe boasted to me that he seduced 400 women. I was like, I I’m so confused.
[36:43] Michelle: I know. It’s OK. So I have to go back to this, this, um, Greg Matson interview. And what we’re talking about is like where the arguments are going. Like now that we’re pushing on them and exposing, we need a new like polygamy expositor, right? We not expositor now. We’re exposing it and we’re watching the arguments they’re coming up with now. So I read, thou shalt have one, thou shalt say unto thy wife and none other. I’m, I’m, right? And none else, right? I brought that up and he said, Well, that’s what in polygamy, it’s just one way. They just have one wife and play because it’s just one wife at a time. Like, like, I think he’s saying, I mean, I didn’t even know my brain was gonna break. I didn’t even know what to say with that. You’re like, OK, so if a man is having an affair, but he’s never in bed with his wife and his mistress at the same time, and they’re not doing anything with each other, we’re good. Right? It’s not infidelity.
[37:37] Karen Hyatt: There’s been so many little memes made about that. Like, um, I can have 2 cookies because each time I had one, it was one cookie.
[37:46] Michelle: It’s the same. So that argument is one. And then another one that shocked me in that is when he was saying it’s always at the head of it. It’s a dispensation head. It’s polygamy always. Comes at the beginning, and I named all the dispensation heads and all the beginnings. And he goes, No, like David, a new beginning. I’m like, so David, who wasn’t the first king, Saul was the first king. David inherited David inherited Saul’s harem. And that’s the scripture you used to say, Nathan gave him Saul’s ham. God loves this. And he was not the. He was, we had profits and going to kingship was like, how was that a new dispensation? How is that a new beginning? And I have one. But not knowing, not, not anyway, it’s, it’s a the
[38:28] Karen Hyatt: but one wife thing. I was so happy. Yeah,
[38:31] Michelle: that was great.
[38:32] Karen Hyatt: Yeah, because they did in the millennial star say.
[38:36] Michelle: One should have but one wife and one woman but
[38:40] Karen Hyatt: one. So we’re like, then, please set aside that argument. Please stop. So anyway, it’s just so interesting, the stuff that is meaningful to them and to some people. And again, I’m OK with that. I feel like that’s just them being like, please don’t let this be true. I don’t want all my belief system to be wracked. But the thing is, here’s the deal. The only reason this really disturbs anyone is because they’ve got Domino’s set. And this is the problem. So you’ve got the Book of Mormon, and if it’s true, then Joseph Smith’s a prophet. I’m cool with those two Dominoes. That’s cool with me. Because the Book of Mormon is Joseph’s fruit that heavenly Father gave us to be like, he was a real prophet. Here’s his fruit so that you can know that. I like that very much. Then we have Brigham and John Taylor and all the rest of this stuff. And those Those dominoes don’t exist. There’s nothing to say, if the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph was a prophet. And then so was Brigham and John Taylor,
[39:37] Michelle: I can’t get that because we’re at the end of the domino line saying they all have to line up. For me, I, I
[39:42] Karen Hyatt: don’t have to have them line up. I’m like, there was, there’s people in the scriptures, there’s good and bad and good and bad all through history. And it’s not like there’s no dominoes. There aren’t any dominoes in the future.
[39:53] Michelle: I don’t even have that one domino. I don’t even have the first one because I’m different. I’m like, Is the Book of Mormon valuable in my life, right? That’s what I, that’s my question. It does the Lord use it to help, to bring me closer to God, right? Which is my goal. Yeah. And then, but then, but I’m like, OK, that’s all I need to know. I don’t need to care about Joseph Smith. I, I mean, that’s how I look. I’m like, like when my kids, I’ve said this before in the podcast, when my kids went to church and the lesson was, why you need to have a testimony, Joseph Smith. And I’m like, that’s backward. You can’t tell them what they have to know is true. Right? And so, like, like, that’s why, that’s when I did say, take love in one hand and truth in one hand and go. And I wish that were the mode of most people. Like, I’m not afraid. I am going to have love and God. I mean, love and truth. And to me, that’s love God, love your fellow man, right? It’s like, I just want to be a loving person who cares about truth. That is what I want. And so for me, it’s, I take the Book of Mormon with that test. Like, OK, there are all of these problems that people are bringing up about the Book of Mormon. I don’t have the answers for them, right? I’m not asking, is the Book of Mormon valuable as a historical document? For me, that’s not how it’s actually the most valuable. I don’t need it to tell me the ancient literal history of North and South America. Maybe it does, but I don’t know where it happened. Like, like, to me, it’s, is it valuable in the principle that teaches, right? And then, and, and so that’s my, that’s my, I’m not saying one way or the other. I’m just saying it has value. Like, independent of the literal historicity that can right? like the I compare it to the Good Samaritan. The Good Samaritan is valuable to me. I don’t need the Good Samaritan to be a literal person and I don’t need to say Jesus was lying if there isn’t actually that good Samaritan, right? And then, so that’s, that’s my value. And then Joseph Smith, I, for me, he totally could have done this in a million different ways or gotten it through what what is. Automatic writing that RFMs that are, you know, I’m like, I, if, if it, if the fruits of it are good, it’s good. Joseph Smith is a whole other question for me. And so for me, it, it didn’t hurt me. It didn’t hurt me. I like I was like, OK, that’s another question. When I looked in to specifically Emma Smith, I was like, Nope, we’re, you know, and then the further I’ve gotten into the history. So for me, and maybe people will disagree, I don’t like the domino. I do not think that’s how truth comes. We live through the scriptures forever. If people are repenting, they are God’s people. God establishes a covenant. The people do everything wrong, including the leaders, often, and God keeps calling them to repentance. And the second they repent, right? They are coming back to God. So for me, is the church good? Are the fruits of it good? Just like, does it help bring me closer to God in many ways, while it also It’s, it’s challenging, but that’s part of coming closer to God. I just, I, I did an interview that will air, I think, in a week or two that’s like the church is just like a family. It helps us come close to God both in the positive and in the negative ways, right? We learn forgiveness and charity and love and overcoming and resilience. We learn discernment to find truth from error while at the same time we learn, we are. Taught truth, and we are taught to love God and to repent and to be humble and to feel the spirit, right? And so, so for me, I just think we, I, I, I, anyway, I just think we can take each thing on its own and say, Is God here? Is God in this? And in the areas where there, where God isn’t necessarily showing up, like, for example, the priesthood ban. I’m not gonna have that be part of my church and and in terms of my faith. And do you know what I mean? I like when we say the church is not a smorgasbord, so what? We have to think that God did not want black people to have the priesthood until ’78. Is that what I mean, a lot of, like, is that what we have to believe in order to be in the church? Well,
[43:33] Karen Hyatt: and Bruce McCoy said they never would get it till they break it down so I think it’s like there’s so many things, so I just, I don’t have that domino thing. I just Yeah, I have that. And it makes it so much easier, uh, because then you can pick out some and it, no, nothing all falls. And by the same token, there’s people that have, um, realized that Joseph Smith, you know, was not a polygamist and the church was wrong on this, and the church was wrong on several things. And so their dominoes go the other way, where, oh, if the church wasn’t right on this, then I’m throwing the whole thing out. And I’m like, OK, I don’t have dominoes that direction either. So it’s really a, a, a more peaceful place to be. Just to be like, I, this one’s not, this one’s good, this one’s not good. And it’s and you use your discernment and it’s just wonderful.
[44:18] Michelle: That’s what it is for us. Our dominoes are further apart. So if one falls, it doesn’t affect the other. I can look at each of these things independently, and I, I suggest having that perspective because at the same time, we have Domino’s on the other other side, which is like, no, I know the church is bad, and I know Joseph was a bad guy. Right? And so I, I, I had a really bad experience in the church. I have all of these objections. I learned these things about Joseph Smith. I felt like Joseph was lying to me, so the Dominoes would also throw the book of, right? And that’s what we’re trying to, that’s what we’re trying to combat, actually. So, yeah, and then, and then that domino often is to God as well, right? But my connection to God is independent of everything. So, yeah, that’s an interesting, yeah, it’s maybe that’s a Good practice to to say, where are my dominoes? What depends on other things that doesn’t need to. Yeah, exactly, exactly. OK, give me another clip that you want to talk about.
[45:14] Karen Hyatt: So the exposure affidavits that were written by Austin Cows and William and Jane Law and put in the, the anti-Mormon, uh, newspaper. Yeah, Navo’s father that William Law started. And so, um, those are interesting because the language in them. Like, precisely matches stuff that’s in 132. So, what, how did that happen? How, what did they see that made them put that in their affidavits? Why did they put that in there? And so you go, well, was 132 created from what cows and Lalaz were saying? I don’t find that very likely. But what I do find likely is that if there’s polygamists, secret polygamists in Navo, And you’re trying to kind of recruit them, and you’re trying to tell them that Joseph has the secret doctrine, you would want something written down because it’s so much more compelling if you’ve got something written. And people would be like, Well, that sounds far-fetched. I’m like, agreed, it does sound far-fetched. But what makes me laugh is that that is exactly the story that the historians. Tell what Joseph Smith was in on it. Like they literally say that this was shared with a select few
[46:27] Michelle: revelation that they had circles and polygamists and they used those
[46:33] Karen Hyatt: words and the word candidate, like I, I said recruit the first time that I recorded it, if they were trying to get recruits. And then I saw Bruguera,
[46:45] Michelle: Berra,
[46:46] Karen Hyatt: and he used the word candidate, and it’s the exact same story that I just said, but it’s Joseph Smith knew about it and we’re trying to get the candidates. And I was like, oh my gosh, that’s why that’s one of my favorite parts is to watch the historians line up with their there was a secret innerpo,
[47:04] Michelle: there’s a secret and
[47:06] Karen Hyatt: Joseph shared it with a few. I’m like, but take him out of the equation and all so preposterous.
[47:12] Michelle: Like, what are you talking about? Especially when we have him on the record everywhere fighting against it. Oh yeah, they have to ignore all of that.
[47:19] Karen Hyatt: They
[47:19] Michelle: go
[47:20] Karen Hyatt: crazy. And the, and people go, Well, are you trying to say that Brigham Young and all these people close to Joseph were practicing polygamy right under his nose, and he didn’t know it. That’s ridiculous. And I was like, oh my gosh, they’re The story, the historian’s story is that Joseph and all these people were practicing polygamy secretly right under Hiram’s nose. And he didn’t know it. Like, Hiram is somehow, like it’s his very brother and co-president of the church, he’s doing all this right under Hirum’s nose, and he doesn’t know. But if you say that they were, other people were doing that, that weren’t as close as Joseph, under Joseph’s no, he didn’t know it, that’s preposterous.
[48:00] Michelle: Yeah, it’s unbelievable. Unbelievable. It’s really, really funny. In fact, the next episode I’m trying to get ready is Hirum and his wives because it’s so funny. It’s like that should the lid off of everything you’re saying to the lady Hirum. So that’ll be coming out. Yeah. So, OK. And, and, and another thing, I thought you were when you were talking about the affidavits, I like the 1869 affidavits, I have been studying like crazy. So those episodes will be coming out soon too, because. It’s, it’s so fun. It’s, it’s like, it is, the more you get into it, the more you just go, my brain’s gonna break. I mean, all of it, the logic is as solid as, no, it’s only one wife, because he’s only marrying each each wife is just one. He has a different marriage with each wife. So he’s only cleaving to that one wife.
[48:44] Karen Hyatt: So as long as you just don’t have them lined up in the same room, I, I mean, I don’t,
[48:47] Michelle: I think you can be in bed with them at the same time. That’s my best guess. That’s so crazy. Anyway, that’s the logic that they are, I guess we should just, instead of, I, I have been kind of having some frustration because it’s like, oh my gosh, what can we do? And I have to just keep remembering, not my problem. Like you said about the documentary, I made it, whatever happens happens. I have to remember that there was one time, but we should, we should take it as a victory that they’re having to go to these arguments,
[49:14] Karen Hyatt: right? That’s why I think it is, so on my website. Site. So there’s a website, Josephtoldthetruth.org. I thought that was as straightforward as I could get. And on there, I’ve got links to everything, everything in the video. And so that you could see, because I want you to go to Brian Hailes’s website. I want you to go and thoroughly look at it because he’s got an article on, oh, like Lucinda Pendleton. He’s got an article on Lucinda Pendleton and the things are this long, right? But you look at it and you’re like, Wait. You literally said that there is no evidence of any ceiling. He said evidence for a ceiling between her and Joseph Smith is nonexistent. Like that was the word he used, nonexistent. And, and in late in the game, right? Late in the game, I’m kind of reviewing this, and I, I see myself saying that. I was like, non-existent. I mean, that’s, that’s harsh. Yeah, that’s like, surely he’s obviously that’s, I don’t want to be disingenuous. So I go back to his site to go, what did he really say? And I looked and I was like, he’s not kidding. Like he’s not kidding. There is no one claimed it. She didn’t claim it, but no one else claimed it. There’s nothing. There’s no. There’s no, no, no, usually there’s something like Andrew Jensen’s list or
[50:27] Michelle: or John Bennett’s or
[50:29] Karen Hyatt: John Bennet’s initial or some things, but I’m not kidding for Lucinda Pendleton, there’s nobody said it, nobody claimed it, and I was like, what, what.
[50:41] Michelle: She’s on Brian’s website. That’s the evidence because she got
[50:50] Karen Hyatt: that
[50:50] Michelle: anyone on
[50:50] Karen Hyatt: Brian,
[50:50] Michelle: it
[50:50] Karen Hyatt: was
[50:50] Michelle: very,
[50:50] Karen Hyatt: it’s truly weird. Oh yeah, it is so weird. OK, one of my favorites is Patty Sessions. All right. Yeah. So Hale says there’s a she was
[51:01] Michelle: an old lady in Novo.
[51:02] Karen Hyatt: Yes, there’s a, it’s all cute little pictures of these ladies and people like, uh. So, um, Patty, there’s a handwritten entry in the diary of Patty Sessions in 1860 that she was sealed to Joseph Smith.
[51:17] Michelle: That very early. That the affidavit 1960, 1869. People don’t understand the timeline. Yes,
[51:24] Karen Hyatt: nobody claimed this, like the very, very earliest was 1867, somebody said something. But, but 1869, the from 1860. Someone said this in 1860. I was super curious. I’m like, OK, whatever it is, I’ve got to take it in. So I go and look. And it was just beautiful. Like, are you kidding me? So, it’s called Mormon Midwife, The Diary of Patty Sessions. And the diary is an actual diary. That’s rare, too. It’s like, whoa, Wasn’t a later
[51:55] Michelle: reminis
[51:56] Karen Hyatt: an actual diary, and it was 1860. So in the midst of her 1860 entries, all of a sudden, in the middle of an entry talking about making blankets, hmm, these two pages are stuck in there. These two and back then, like, they could bind and rebind by song. So these two pages are stuck in there, literally in the middle of the blanket making entry. And And one of them is totally undated. No date on it. And that’s the one that says, oh, I was sealed to Joseph Smith. It’s very weird too, because it’s like, I was sealed to him. And then when there’s a place for it to be done, I hope someone will do this work for me. And then there’s a little second page that’s attached with wax, and that does have a date. Which is 1867, and she’s like, and what that one says is that I was sealed to Joseph by proxy with Joseph F. Smith standing in.
[52:47] Michelle: I was like, Joseph F. Oh, I’m Joseph by proxy in Utah with Joseph F. Smith. This is, this is her
[52:55] Karen Hyatt: 60 handwritten. So that
[52:58] Michelle: one, it’s like the Melissa Bible. They like, they, we know they were creating a body of evidence. They were manufacturing evidence. Joseph F. Smith said, I was shocked how there was this there was literally no evidence of Joseph Smith being a polygamist, so they had to create it. And so that’s as funny. As the Melissa Lot Bible where it says, Melissa Smith, and that’s taken as proof. We’re in the Temple Lot trial. She says she never went by Melissa Smith. Nobody ever knew her that. Nobody ever call her that, right? So it’s so
[53:28] Karen Hyatt: awesome. And so that one, you know, the, the Bible entry, I was like, at least that’s a concrete like thing that you can see her name. And it’s like, OK, so I’ll give you that. Like, I,
[53:37] Michelle: I don’t think it they they they don’t even include our. They don’t.
[53:42] Karen Hyatt: So I absolutely didn’t want to skim over anything that, that, that looks like evidence. So I put that in there, but it really just comes down, and they go, Well, Joseph the 3rd, so Joseph Smith’s son, um, interviewed Melissa a lot late in life and stuff. And he was like, Well, here’s what she said to me. And when our sisters walked in, she was like, Yeah, it’s not true. And so it was very, it’s super cool. But um, It really comes down to do you believe Joseph III or do you believe Melissa and whoever wrote that. So it’s OK with me that that’s there. It’s like that’s fine if you have a tea chart, definitely put that on the that looks legit side
[54:16] Michelle: and we said well all of the surrounding, right, right. And also. Every, every one of those things that I look at like for example that um Patty Sessions journal, it looks like it’s evidence on their side, but it very quickly has to become oh manufactured evidence which isn’t just neutral. It’s it should call all of the evidence into question because you see that they are creating and that’s that’s something that I think needs to be taken more seriously. It’s like, every time when they say there are all these children, and we say there are no children, you can’t just say, Oh, we’ll erase that from that side. We’ll say, OK, we don’t have that evidence. You have to say, Oh, they were being dishonest to try to make this. Exactly.
[54:55] Karen Hyatt: Exactly. That’s why, that’s why the William Clayton affidavit was so important to me. He says in his supposed diary entry on the day that Joseph received 132. And he puts that Joseph and Hiram went and took it to Emma, and she was very bitter, blah blah blah. So it’s like that’s hours after it supposedly happened, Joseph and Hiram went and gave it to her, but then 1874, you get this fleshed out affidavit with the whole story, and he just recalls that there they were and I was like, you need to write down the revelation, and I’ll take it to Emma. And Joseph’s like, Oh, you don’t know her like I do. No, please just write it down. So, and he says, use the Yerman thumb and everyone’s on. Was it the Yrum and thumb taken back by then, but that’s OK, whatever. But he use the Y and thumb and get a revelation that’s written down, so Emma will be. Right. It’s
[55:53] Michelle: much, much, much more comprehensive. Yes.
[55:57] Karen Hyatt: And, and he says, Joseph said, I don’t need the Yarm and thumb because I have it memorized. I was like, it’s a 10-page revelation. How did you memorize that without ever writing it down? And that, that’s one thing that I wanted to put in there, but that’s my, again, that’s my connecting the dots. And I tried to leave that out as much as possible, but I loved it so much that that 1874 affidavit was Hirum took it to Emma. And specifically saying, it’s not like, oh, he just didn’t mention that Joseph went with him. No, he says, Joseph waited with me in the office. It’s
[56:33] Michelle: a
[56:33] Karen Hyatt: big
[56:33] Michelle: difference.
[56:33] Karen Hyatt: It’s so funny. And then Hiram comes back. Oh my gosh, I’ve never had such a talking to. She was so mad at me. I told you, I told you that’s how it would go. And you’re like, they don’t match. So you just don’t go, Oh, well, then we’ll go with the early one. No, you go, we throw them out. Or
[56:48] Michelle: you, why don’t you go with the early one? But you know that the rest of the The affidavit is problematic, and I’m actually dying inside right now because I have something that I’m not ready to, to tell yet about this topic. But just look for a paper that will be forthcoming in the Journal of Mormon Polygamy that is going to blow people away.
[57:05] Karen Hyatt: But I, I was so happy to just see that absolute positive, undeniable evidence that he made up a story. And it’s a big, long, detailed story, and he made it up. So it’s like, no matter what you think of 132, he made that up because it doesn’t match this. It doesn’t even internally match. So it’s like, you know what, he has to be thrown out as a credible witness. You’re done. So you cannot place him above Joseph and Hiram. That’s what
[57:35] Michelle: I, that’s what the, and in fact you made that point. I don’t think because I, that’s one thing that people are cute, I try not to just say, I’m throwing that witness out. That’s not how I approach it at all. And I, I don’t throw that no, I, I think I know that’s how you. I think, but, but I, I’ve engaged with this and that like, like we can take the specific things they say and say where do, where do they rank in credibility, right? And that’s the thing that
[57:58] Karen Hyatt: makes me I throw them out into the not very credible they’re in that.
[58:02] Michelle: Well, no, I just, I just, I know people are gonna hear this and say, you’re throwing witnesses out. I’m like, OK, I’m, you know, I, yeah, she does.
[58:08] Karen Hyatt: A he goes, as a credible witness, you have perjured yourself in a huge way. You didn’t make a tiny mistake. To me, you told a whole story that doesn’t match what you said 3 hours after the event.
[58:18] Michelle: Supposedly, apparently you claim, but the whole thing about he had it memorized that see that’s where I’m like, we don’t even have to worry about that. It’s the story itself is not plausible for so many reasons. The the Y in them and then to say I have it memorized, I can recite it any time when it’s like, well, when was this given, right? Because you claimed that this was given decades ago, but it has all of this information that’s right now happening with Emma supposedly, right? That’s only pertinent this day. So how is it to memorize. recitation that you’ve
[58:45] Karen Hyatt: had forever. And my favorite by far, by far my favorite part of 132 is the first three verses, where he’s like, OK, so you’ve inquired at my hand about polygamy and how just how Abraham and Isaac and Jacob were justified in their polygamy and prepare your heart to receive. I’m gonna and it says, I will answer thee. Prepare thy heart to receive what I I am about to about to tell you. And then like 40 verses later, 50 verses later, there’s, he’s like, and PS, the Lord’s like, Emma needs to accept all the wives that I’ve given you. And I’m like, What are you? We’re done. We’re done. Like, and my friend was watching this, you know, one of the ones that came over to watch the video. And at that part, as we went through DNC and saw that, you know, she shall be destroyed and all these things. And he was just looking at it and he goes, I gotta go reread DNC 132. Right in there, but we don’t see it. We don’t see I don’t talk about it and come follow me or whatever. It’s just not gonna be there. And it’s like, wow, I’m gonna give you this, but you already have wives. That is mental. So I was like,
[59:53] Michelle: yeah, awesome. Yeah, I do think maybe that’s a good thing, because I, I think it’s useful to suggest to people, after watching this documentary, to read Jacob. Chapters 2 and 3 and Doctrine and Covenants 132 side by side and just see what they, what, what they discern, right? I,
[1:00:10] Karen Hyatt: I saw the contradiction early on. Yeah, I saw the contradiction when I used to, um, wonder about it. And I thought, wow, those are, those are 180 degrees apart. And I concluded that D&C was more recent, so it was the more correct. That was my. So I was like, I guess Jacob didn’t know what he’s talking about. That’s. And the fact that Joseph Smith’s like, this was the most correct book, right? That should have come into my mind.
[1:00:35] Michelle: And for me also, the contradiction really is how does God view women? That’s, that’s a question that I think is worth telling people like, like, like read these two, how does God view women, right? Are they possessions that don’t matter or and
[1:00:47] Karen Hyatt: see, I never felt that way. I definitely just never felt that way. I already knew I was starting from the premise that he loved me and he loves all of his children. I had no No doubt about that. So I just always thought something about this polygamy thing, it will become clear later, and I’ll realize something later, you know, it will be, it will, it will make sense later and I’ll see how, how great it is and how it’s a blessing.
[1:01:11] Michelle: I, it’s, it’s shocking to me. The one thing, like, you know how you always say, we can watch it. But one thing that I think could do that for so many people is finding out the original Doctrine and Covenants in 1835 and 18. 44 during Justice Life had Section 101 and 104, the statement on marriage. Then we get this out of the blue in 1852, and it’s not added to the Doctrine covenants until 1876 when that is removed. That is something that everybody that is what should be in our manuals. You want to talk about cherry picking? Let’s see what Brian Hailes talks about that on his website or talks about that in his narrative that he creates. And that is that is a core central. Our canonized scriptures that should be the most important thing that every member of the church should know. No member of the church should be surprised by that.
[1:01:56] Karen Hyatt: Exactly. And every single one is. And but but at least it’s useful for us at this point because they all look at that like across the board. My friends are like, what? They have no idea. They had no idea. And, and that opens the door for, OK, there’s stuff that I did not realize that it is. In scripture, didn’t know that. And so that there there was 20 times making this where I was like, this should be a 4 minute movie. Right?
[1:02:23] Michelle: That’s what she said, like every 5 minutes, because when I, when I looked up and did my episode, I think it was in my, I think it was my 2 hour anniversary episode. I think I covered it in other places too, where I showed the gospel manuals that change it to a but.
[1:02:35] Karen Hyatt: That’s in the, my gosh, I was so thankful that you had that. I had never seen that and I never would have. For if I will, saith the Lord of hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people. Otherwise they shall hearken unto these things. That Jacob would speak so powerfully and in such condemnatory language only to undermine his entire sermon by adding that the Lord might capriciously command what he has called an abomination is baffling, to say the least, and the idea that Jacob would alert his people to a loophole that the Lord would only make brief use of over 2000 years later also seems very unlikely. It’s interesting that verse 30 begins with 4, which implies a continuation of the point being made and not an exception. In fact, the word 4 was so incompatible with the idea of this being a loophole that the authors of the Gospel doctrine manual actually changed the wording from 4 if I will to but if I will. In order to support the idea that this verse was meant as an exception to God’s rule of monogamy. That was huge. That was huge for people. Like, they knew that’s, that’s when steam came out of my ears, where I was like, OK, I have been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you knew that that made no sense and you actually changed the word to support what you’re saying.
[1:04:14] Michelle: There’s no, there’s, and at the same time, we can still give them the benefit of the doubt of their trying to make sense of this. They are responsible for teaching it to the people. You have to keep this narrative. So, you know, I, I think everyone is this, the fact is, a big giant deception messes with everyone, right? And so, so I don’t know that we need to like, like, um, I know that they’re being nefarious. Right. And of course, well, I mean, you know, everyone can choose. And of course, there is steam comes out of your ears, right? But I mean, I mean, it is maddening when you see that we have like this, we have been lied to in terms of who God is about what this do is forever and people are trying to keep this lie. Going and like I always see my mom’s song, like it requires, when you tell one lie, it leads to another, you have to lie and lie and lie and lie to make the lie keep going. And that’s why I think if we could just ask our leaders to simply add into our manuals, into our lessons, the original Doctrine of Covenant statement, and then this that would finish it for most people right there. They’d be like, Oh, I’m believe in what Joseph Smith put in during his life. And then again, all the downstream stream problems to say, you can’t talk about this because What I mean for I’m like, no, that’s its own problem. That’s its own thing. And we can do the same thing of moving the dominoes apart and saying, look, yeah, Brigham, we already know, I say this all the time. How many things do we know that Brigham got wrong, right? Right, right, right. And, and so we didn’t add a section faithfully to our doctrine covenants that is as demeaning of people of different races as Section 132 is of women. But that doesn’t mean, mean, you know, like it’s. Horrible that we have added these kind of demeaning scriptures into our canon. So that’s what, that’s what I, that was my realization in our conversation is like, that should be included in our man.
[1:06:01] Karen Hyatt: I remember it would be so nice if all of the historians would just present the information. But they don’t. They say, like, um, Brian Hales says, Joseph Smith, you know, tried to marry her daughter. I mean, he states it like matter of fact. And you’re like, but you look and it’s like, who Did it come from? Well, it came from the daughter, like, in 1908, and she was, had married an anti-Mormon by then. She hated it. I was like, how do you say that? How do you just pronounce that? And he did the same thing with William McClellan. He said, William McClellan interviewed Emma. And in that interview, she said that Joseph was an adulterer and a polygamist. Like, can you not say that William McClellan claimed this? And that Emma denied it completely?
[1:06:48] Michelle: And you take that to the point of saying that both Emma and Joseph Smith III were just
[1:06:55] Karen Hyatt: so I that was I
[1:06:55] Michelle: was just reading. I was just studying another wife, and, um, that will be coming out. And again found that he’s giving this whole, um, journal entry that I’m like, that’s weird. I haven’t read that journal. I thought I’d read it, you know, and look up the footnotes, and it’s another one I’ve pointed these kinds of things out on my episode I mean on my podcast before, where you go to the footnote and it’s Quinn’s notes. We can’t find the original, right? That is not good enough. You can’t like, things have not been destroyed since DeMichael Quinn was doing his research, right? And if it’s not been released, you can’t use it. Exactly. And, and we have caught Quinn. I, I never want to say anything bad about DeMichael Quinn, brilliant historian, great guy, good friend. But we have caught him using bad sources before. He has cited, if nothing else, he has footnote. Known forgeries before in his official works. So no, you can’t just say, Well, Quinn claimed that this existed. Yes. And does that a lot, right, right. So we, so we have to be like, like we have to actually, if, if the church does want to keep with this narrative, they need to release all the stuff. Yes,
[1:08:05] Karen Hyatt: absolutely, I agree so much. And what, what kills me is when the historians give the church leaders the narrative because the church leaders are not trying to do what
[1:08:14] Michelle: we’re doing.
[1:08:15] Karen Hyatt: So he, they give them the narrative, and then we go, Hey, there’s holes in the narrative. And they go, You’re talking against the church. OK, don’t do that. Like, you can’t do that. I am not laying this at the feet of the church leaders. I, I, I’m not doing that. Something that’s important thing should, in my opinion, set aside some of their busy stuff and go and look into this for themselves a little bit and not outsource it every time. So they bear a little bit of the burden, but the vast majority is at the feet of the Historians. That’s why it’s called oll and to use scribes, because it’s their fault because they’ve hidden so much and whitewashed and just
[1:08:50] Michelle: it’s been a, it’s been a dance, the church and church historians,
[1:08:56] Karen Hyatt: yes. But when you watch that face to face with Quentin Cook, that’s where he talks to them, these young people, and he’s like, we wanted you to have a place where it wouldn’t be misinformation. So we had the Saint’s book, you know, Saints, the standard of truth, so that you could go there and Get correct information. And he held it up. And this is the part I really wanted to put in there, but I was like, I don’t want it to look insulting. But he held that book up and he said, If it says it was raining, it was raining. And I was like, Oh my gosh, so hold on, that’s not how
[1:09:29] Michelle: any history is done of history.
[1:09:33] Karen Hyatt: I was like, 9 people said it was raining, 2 said it was snowing, and 4 said it was sunny. So we thought like, no, they do the best they can. And you can’t say that about anything, but my heart went out to them. So I thought, oh my gosh, that was when it really clicked for me, that they think that they’re getting unvarnished truth when these historians give them this narrative. And I was, that was like, OK, well, we have to seriously do this movie, you know, and just to show that, no, no, no, there’s an absolute other side that they’re leaving out completely and you really need to know that.
[1:10:03] Michelle: Yeah, yeah, that’s really, like, even basic things like what was in our scriptures and where, how our scriptures have been put together. That is so. So basic and so important to us to know, we have like, and the other thing, and like, like, OK, yes, this causes problems. I, as I have studied Brigham Young, that has been a painful jour journey for me, you know, I have people who are brutal, who brutally mock me that my son is named Brigham. People, I just, can I just say, people are horrible on all sides of this, right? I love my son. But yeah, I went through a big Crisis of learning, like, like, when you read what Brigham Young said, what he did, it’s painful. It’s painful. I held him in very high regard, right? I still am thankful for the good he did. Sometimes people argue with me and say, there’s no good there. And I’m like, yeah, I get it. I get it. But I still, I, I, I can look at our ancestors and say, I am very thankful for the good things, and I mourn over the bad things, right? However, so, so yes, let’s acknowledge that. That does not mean that we should, therefore throw Joseph Smith under the bus and say Joseph Smith was doing all of the things that have made everyone lose their testimony, right? If we can manage, we are telling everyone, you just have to deal with it with Joseph Smith. God lets us use imperfect profits. God, like all of the things we say. Even Brian Hales, who was so critical of how dare you be critical of the prophet, says, Joseph Smith, don’t do that. Don’t do that. If I could tell him to do a different. Yeah, tell him what to do differently. So he says that about Joseph Smith, but then everybody else has to be held above reproach. I, I do not under. I just don’t understand, right? We have a founding prophet who is the dispensation head, right? Joseph and Emma and their family should be looked at, honestly. And even if you, I mean, I mean, they should at least be given the benefit of the doubt to the point that We will look at this honestly. Because we claim that he is a prophet of God, right? I, I, that is what shocks me. That’s what about like, let’s look at the information, honestly, and go from there, wherever it means. To me, it doesn’t ruin the Dominos. Joseph Smith restored the gospel. Yeah, things got messed up, but look what God is doing. Look what God is bringing forward. We still have the Book of Moon. We still have the covenant that God established that the people. The new covenant is clearly delineated throughout scriptures, throughout the Book of Mormon and the doctrine covenants. Just throw out 1 131 and 132 claim it is, and you have a true understanding of the true covenant, the new and everlasting covenant that God restored through Joseph Smith. That’s what matters.
[1:12:47] Karen Hyatt: Exactly. And there’s some, some comfort that they get in believing that he was highly flawed. I say they, I hate when people paint with a broad brush to say they. There are people that I’ve heard. That definitely need to get a concert in the fact, in what they think is the fact that he was flawed, highly, yeah, that, that Joseph was, you know, polygamy was bad, but he did it, but nobody’s perfect. And something like that. And I’m like, man, that is so harmful to me. And, um, I, I don’t need to put anybody on a pedestal. I don’t need Joseph on a pedal or any of the biblical prophets or Book of Mormon prophets. I don’t need anybody to be perfect or whatever. But You have to know that it’s pretty damaging to paint a story that Emma and her husband, these beloved pillars of the restoration, as I call him in the movie, like butted heads constantly, had this horrible marriage. He was going behind her back. He knew she was gonna be crabby at him again. She’s like, you said what’s going around town stomping on all the other wives’ watches. And that made me laugh, and that stuck in my head and saw such a great picture. But to think. That, to think that they had that kind of marriage and they’re just, it was awful. When you have friction in your marriage, and then you look at that and you go, I mean, the prophet of God and his wife that they sacrificed all these things, they still had a horrible marriage. So what chance do I have? That’s gotta play into there for some people, you know? And it’s, it’s not healthy. It’s not OK. You should be able to admire people.
[1:14:18] Michelle: Yes,
[1:14:19] Karen Hyatt: it’s
[1:14:19] Michelle: OK. That doesn’t
[1:14:20] Karen Hyatt: mean you worship them. Them or idolize them or any other thing. It’s like, that’s cool. Like, oh, look at all they went through, and still they loved each other. Read their letters to each other. I don’t read what the historians say that they said to each other.
[1:14:33] Michelle: William Clayton says that we don’t even have access to still. It’s so interesting to me that they always said forever, Josephine Lyon said on her, well, and then her mother, Sylvia Sessions, Lion, said on her deathbed that Joseph, that Joseph was Joseph. Fine’s father, right? Like this was a deathbed confession. We know it was true, right? And first of all, it’s thirdhand. I mean, it’s at least secondhand, decades after she died, right? Like in 1913. This is 1913, this affidavit. And yet we have printed right then at the time of Emma’s death, her deathbed, um, her deathbed confession. Emma was not a believer in this doctrine of you. Doesn’t matter what you do, right? Like Emma, and we have testimony after testimony after testimony of how truthful Emma was as a woman, right? She was very truthful and we’re like, uh, she was lying. She was protecting her sons, because it’s deathbed confession. Like the standard here is I choke on it often. Like I, I, I, I just, you sit there. I love Karen goes like this. She’s like, OK, done. I just sit there and go, uh.
[1:15:42] Karen Hyatt: Some of the stuff just leaves you speechless. OK, yeah, in fact, the Josephine Lyon thing is so funny because you can read um the papers that the scholars wrote after the DNA evidence came out and said, no, Josephine was the daughter of Windsor Lion, but several of the scholars discussing this were like. Oh, what did Sylvia mean when she told Josephine that she was Joseph’s daughter? And I was like, Are you serious? Like, they’re still, even though, nope, you were his daughter, they cannot throw it out as maybe she made it up. They can’t do it. They’re just like, then why did Sylvia tell Josephine that she was Joseph’s daughter? It must, she must mean it in a spiritual sense. Like, that’s right. That’s not her death she’s like, come here. I have to tell you that. He thought of you as his spiritual daughter. Like, what? What’s she’s like making a big deal out of it, like, oh, she pulled me aside and told me this. That’s not anything that would be a thing that you hold all your life.
[1:16:37] Michelle: It’s been used as proof of polygamy. That’s no matter how it’s been interpreted. So we have that interpretation. And then the other interpretation that I have come across often with highly respected historians is she was sleeping with both men, right? That’s the other 10 my gosh. my favorite spiritual wife or she was sleeping with because that’s that’s what Sylvia would have wanted.
[1:16:57] Karen Hyatt: My gosh, people literally go, this proves that she was sleeping with both, or else she wouldn’t have thought that Josephine was his daughter. Oh my word. So I just feel when people say something like that, it’s like a big neon sign, I’m scared to death. Please don’t rock my world. Anyway, so this, this thing had so Several parts that I just thought this should be a two-minute movie and we should be done, you know, the one that gets people, the part that really gets. Yeah, tell us
[1:17:26] Michelle: what people
[1:17:26] Karen Hyatt: have like, so the chart with Brigham Young and his wife. Yeah, and it’s just so powerful. It’s like, there’s the martyrdom and there’s like 30 of Brigham’s wives, like the, the majority of his wives were right afterwards, still in that movie. People like, Oh, we had to hide it because it was illegal in Navo goes out the window. You’re like, there they all were,
[1:17:49] Michelle: right? Here’s the thing. Here’s the thing. There’s a secret group of polygamists passing around a secret revelation, right? Ridiculous if it doesn’t include Joseph Smith. Totally the unquestionable truth if it does include Joseph Smith, right? And the reason it had to be so secret is because we were in Navvo and it was illegal and it was hostile.? OK, let’s bring that, right? This is what makes my mind, makes people’s minds explode. Mine, you know. So they’re saying that that is the reason. The reason I had to be varied is because they were in Navo. So we are saying, yes, there was a secret group of polygamists passing around a secret revelation, taking life secretly, and Joseph was fighting it along with, right? So, and they were the limiting factor on it, right? So they’re still in Navvo when it explodes, right? What, what was it that was taken away? Joseph and right there. It’s nothing else we’re done. We’re done. Well, because it
[1:18:46] Karen Hyatt: because
[1:18:46] Michelle: it
[1:18:47] Karen Hyatt: is ludicrous. It’s so crazy. It’s so crazy. They’re, um, so going through the wives, like the scant evidence on just the vast majority of the wives, the evidence is just so, so, so flimsy and so people have really responded to that. And um one of them, yeah, so my son who, you know, he’s been in the house and He’s heard this and heard me editing and he’s seen it and he’s so nice to like watch it with me when I watch it with people sometimes he’s in full 3 times plus all the clips, but he was like, this last time that we screened it just a few days ago. Um, with people that had never heard of this, I had only talked to the wife very briefly, and she’s like, Oh, that’s interesting. And I said, Well, come watch this for me, you know? And so I didn’t know what her husband, her husband had zero introduction. So I didn’t know what they were gonna do, you know? But, um, but I think it’s good news. That’s all I can, I, I’m like, I think it’s lovely news. You guys come and watch it. So anyway, they watched it and when it got to the wife, there’s a good 42 minutes of the wife because I wanted to go through every wife. I didn’t want. I didn’t leave anyone out. I just wanted you to see so that I wasn’t, so it wasn’t like, well, I wonder what he said about these ones that she left out. No, I’m putting them all in. But when it got about halfway through the wives for the 3rd time that my son has seen it, he kind of looks over at me. He’s like,
[1:20:05] Michelle: it’s like. Yeah,
[1:20:05] Karen Hyatt: he’s like. And, and then afterwards, he said something like, didn’t you think the wife part was long? And the husband goes, Oh, no. When you got to that part, I was like, OK, take your time. I want to hear.
[1:20:15] Michelle: Oh wow.
[1:20:16] Karen Hyatt: I was so happy to hear that. And that was, yeah. So I was, and my son was like, Really? He goes, Oh yeah, that’s the part that was, that meant the most to me, because I wanted to know what they had said. And I was like, OK, so that was a clincher that I was gonna leave it in. I trimmed it down as much as I could, but, um, but I had to leave the most, the, the most important parts in the most high, like I said, the strongest evidence, which some is just not. At all. It’s like, we have one claim. There’s one part, um, anyone who’s seen it, there’s one claim where he says, um, Benjamin Johnson is the sole evidence corroborating her ceiling. And he uses the word corroborate. I was like, corroborating it with what? I don’t know what that means. Like, you have to and literally, it’s only his claim. And again, in 1903 or something crazy. And
[1:21:04] Michelle: like when you start seeing these names that keep showing up and you have broken down, it’s kind of like you said how you want to throw a will. And I’m like, we can’t do that. We get, you know, we, but Benjamin Johnson, when, when, when you would see that he has been so dishonest, so many times, at that point when he adds another wife in 1903, you can go get out of here, right? With that you can be like, sorry, Ben, I’m not, no, we’re not accepting your, your next question. I,
[1:21:33] Karen Hyatt: I can’t believe the stuff that they’re OK with. And, um, the So Mary Herron, yeah,
[1:21:40] Michelle: oh that’s terrible.
[1:21:43] Karen Hyatt: I was like, that was another word. I was like, can we be done now? Like, can we just make it a five minute movie? But he was like, Mary Herron never claimed it, but her son-in-law did. And because it was early in 1850, it’s important. I cut out so much of that section that I really wanted to in there because he got, go look that one up, you guys, on Brian Hill’s. site, look at Mary Herron, because it’s much worse than I showed you. Much worse. Because he says, because it was given by the testimony that she had sexual relations with Joseph, because it was said by a devout member of the church, and in 1850, she quoted here. And I, I read it twice. I read through his Stuff quite thoroughly because I was convinced I was missing something or mixing up people. Joseph Ellis Johnson. What a
[1:22:31] Michelle: trial,
[1:22:32] Karen Hyatt: not a trial, but they were thinking about doing a trial and for impregnating Lorenzo Snow’s new wife. And I was like, our definitions of devout. I might be a little, so for anyone who hasn’t watched it I’ll, I’ll tell you this right now, it was one of my favorite ones. It was so insane. But Joseph Ellis Johnson, what did he say? He was quoted as saying that he was familiar with the first frigging. That took place with his mother-in-law by Joseph. And I was like, hold on.
[1:23:05] Michelle: And that was their version of the F word. That was, that’s what. OK, so that is interesting
[1:23:10] Karen Hyatt: because at, at some point, I know that in England, like that was, as of 20 years ago, I know that that word was very, very offensive there. And so I was like, oh no, like I want to be able to show this to anybody, including like elder Kieran. And I was like, OK. So I actually messaged an internet acquaintance in In England. I was like, so my understanding is this, this was, is this because I looked at the internet and you cannot tell from the internet if it’s bad. And it’s like slang for so. I’m like, I know that, but so is, so are a lot of things that are, we could
[1:23:42] Michelle: say and they’re all the time. Yeah, it’s all over. And so I’m like, I,
[1:23:47] Karen Hyatt: I have to know from an actual person that lives there right now. So he messaged me back and said, No, it’s not that strong. And, but it is crass. And so you might want to just note that it was crass. And so I did. You know, I was like, OK, I’ll take that advice. So anyway, but man, that was insane. I was like, that’s your. And again, that’s the only way. And he said that. He says, this is the primary evidence. And when he says primary, 9 times out of 10, he means only, but he’ll say primary. He’ll say like, other than this, we have very little. And usually that means other than we have nothing. Yeah. He says this was the primary evidence constituting a relationship between Joseph and Mary Herron Snyder, who Mary Herron was. Mr. Schneider, so it just gets worse and worse.
[1:24:30] Michelle: And again, it’s not the question isn’t art, and I’m so glad you brought this up in your, in your episode, because it was like, yes, exactly. The question isn’t, should we believe these or should we not? We have like, like, I guess I’m saying if I’m doing genealogical work and I’m looking for who’s married to who, and this is my evidence. I’m like, oh, that’s pretty weak evidence. Do I use it or do I know, right? If I’m just in the back like that. But if you have someone else, if you have the supposed groom saying, no, that was not me. No. No, I never did that. No. And you’ll have all of the evidence from the time period when he was alive, supports him and backs him up. And then these people, you catch them in lie after lie after lie, after, I mean, like, let’s go on exponentially. Like, I don’t know how many lies there are at this point. At what point do you go, Oh, you know what I mean? That’s, that’s, it’s not just this is really weak evidence on its own. It’s this is really weak and contradictory evidence that does not hold up at all. And here we have someone saying the exact opposite happens. Who By the way, for believing members, we claim to be the prophet of the restoration and his wife and the co-profit. Like I was so impressed that Brian Hailes admits that Hiram Smith was his co-prophet and the patriarch and the, you know, he said a co-equal with Joseph Smith. He says that often, but he wasn’t still circle. He still is just a big idiot according to the gay narrative.
[1:25:48] Karen Hyatt: So, so, uh, on my website, I’ve got, like I said, all the links to all these things, Josepholdhetruth.org. Anything you have questions about, just look at the links there, and please share it and share it in the kindest way that you can. Like we said, we’ve talked so much about where people are. And for some people, it’s super traumatic, and they don’t need to know this right now. It’s really OK if they don’t know this for years or even ever. Like, you can still, everything’s fine. We didn’t, you know, I didn’t know it for ages, and I was fine. If you like it, just tell people that you liked it and share it. And that’s really it. Um, The other thing is, feel free to download the movie and put it onto a thumb drive. If you don’t know how, get a 14 year old and then give it to your bishop or whatever.
[1:26:36] Michelle: Or just send them the link. I can
[1:26:38] Karen Hyatt: send them the link. But a lot of people won’t do that. But if you go to the trouble of giving them something like, like for my first documentary, I did DVDs, I made gillions, and we went through them all. I was shocked how many people said, Well, I want to watch it in my living room, and I don’t know how to get it onto my TV because some people don’t.
[1:26:53] Michelle: And, also, people have been asking about adding subtitles in different languages. I assume you give your permission for that, like, subtitle in Spanish, subtitle it in whatever language to share it, please share it, please download it. Please like, spread the word because I mean, I, I guess I know that Karen’s hoping that maybe this could be the Lester Bush moment, right? Like, I think all of us are just thinking, what can help, I think what can help turn the tide and frankly, it wasn’t Lester Bush alone. No, it was all of this bubbling.
[1:27:22] Karen Hyatt: They did. They told him he was, there was a lot of people saying, you’re going against the narrative this like,
[1:27:29] Michelle: yeah, yeah, he was threatened he was a brave, courageous man and aren’t we so thankful for what he did? And Gwendolyn
[1:27:35] Karen Hyatt: got to meet
[1:27:36] Michelle: his wife. Well, they were, yeah, they were friends. And so I think that, um, I think that all of this bubbling up from the bottom, sharing it with our neighbors, makes it easier for our leaders. I think that like Spencer W. Kimball, they were having problems with this in many different. If you read that article, I think it was Edward Kimball that wrote about it and talking about all of the different directions that like truth has a way of coming out. And it was, and this, this falsehood that they had been operating under since Brigham Young, this racist falsehood was creating problems everywhere. I would say the polygamy falsehood is creating problems everywhere, and it’s time for it to have it stay as well. But the more people that we can share this with, the more good we can, like, like. Everywhere. And also our, um, post-Mormon and ex-Mormon and anti-Mormon friends, I think it’s good for them to know what is happening, right? So that they can look at their evidence in a different way. Again, just like Bill Reel said in one of our engagements. It doesn’t mean the church is true. I’m like, I’m not arguing that. Like, like, look
[1:28:42] Karen Hyatt: I gonna throw it out, throw it out for a better reason than this.
[1:28:45] Michelle: Some people, some people want to use different topics for an agenda. Everyone always thinks that they insist on knowing. What my agenda is. And my agenda is that
[1:28:53] Karen Hyatt: someone who watched it. Like he watched it. And then he said, What was your purpose? And I was like, I literally say that at the beginning and give you like two minutes of why. What are you talking about?
[1:29:03] Michelle: I care about this. It was so bizarre. I’m not trying to destroy the church. I’m not trying to prove the church. I’m not trying to, um, I was like,
[1:29:13] Karen Hyatt: this is true truth’s sake is one thing, but also just to not have that rattling around the back of your head, like maybe my husband will be with someone else. Someday on my website, I linked to Lisa’s story, the whole episode with Lisa and Harrah and Heather, and then the one with just Lisa’s because her story is the most touching, eye-opening. That’s why, that’s part of why I’m doing this, a big reason.
[1:29:35] Michelle: And I think that I think that on the one hand, to rid us from this false belief. It’s, it’s like, oh my gosh, that feels so good to have truth. And then also for me, and I know for many people. We are telling horrible stories about people who were such incredible people and sacrificed so much, right? So just for the sake of my love for Emma Smith and Joseph Smith or Hiram Smith and Lucy Mac Smith, I cannot help but relate to her and that entire family, right? That it’s like, if you know that a lie is being said about somebody and you have found evidence. To show that it’s a lie, and you want to share that evidence to say, hey, this isn’t true. Why isn’t that good enough? Why isn’t that its own end? Why do we have to have some other agenda? It’s like, everybody, let’s just look at this for its own sake. And I guess everyone that’s saying we have to have an agenda, that’s telling us more about them than it does about us because that shows how they use knowledge and information. They are like, I’m gonna create a narrative. Because I have an agenda. That’s what Brian Hill’s woe unto you scribes. I would say the top scribe on this is Brian Hills. I have no problem saying that. Woe unto you, scribe, right? We can say that right. Right, right. And I’m, right? And even Joseph F. Smith, I don’t give him as much blame because he didn’t know. He was a troubled, troubled soul, right? He didn’t know. He was not always honest, but he didn’t have the responsibility that these other people have, right? And so whenever that’s another thing that people always say to me, and I’m sure many have heard it, like, you are going to have to stand in front of Brigham Young one day. You are going to have to say. I’m like, really? I didn’t know that was our doctrine. But, but honestly, like, I feel like, my goodness. Joseph and Emma Smith and the things that they and Hiram, the things that they did, the things that they sacrificed, what they gave, what they brought forward, and God choosing them as the people to restore this dispensation, I would want to know that I have the right version of who they are and the right stories that I tell about them.
[1:31:49] Karen Hyatt: Right? Love it. Oh my gosh, that’s so great. All right.
[1:31:53] Michelle: Thank you for joining us. And, um, this is a fun conversation, the really important. Um, episode this week is the documentary. Go ahead and share that everywhere. I will be back next week with more information. We’re gonna keep going because this truth is on our side and it is rolling forward. You might as well stretch out your puny heart, yeah. Oh, man, to stop the, what is it the mighty Missouri, the Missouri River has to stop this truth from coming forth. It’s coming. Love it. We’ll see you next time. Another incredibly huge thank you to Karen for this amazing work she has done and also for all of the work she has done for this podcast. For the past year plus, I, I can never thank Karen enough. She is incredible. I’m so thankful to have her on my team. And I am thankful that all of you get to know her a little bit better now. So thank you for joining us. I will see you next time.
