94: Historical Malpractice Part 1 – A Conversation with Whitney Horning

Whitney and I go through some lesser known sources to discuss and reveal the depth of the historical malpractice we are up against.

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Whitney Horning – Presentation Slides
(Another link to try if the first doesn’t work — please let me know if you can’t access)

Face to Face with Elder Cook

Hyrum’s Jacob 2 Sermon recorded by Levi Richards: Levi Richards papers, 1837-1867; Diaries; Volume 18, 1843 May 14-June 11; Church History Library,

Transcript:

[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 problems revisiting Mormon polygamy where we explore the scriptural theological and historical case for plural marriage. I know that many of you are anxiously anticipating the next episodes on the temple. I wanted to have those ready this week. Well, at least the next one for a variety of reasons. I am still working on them. Please bear with me, be patient with me. I am trying to be as thorough as I can and these are huge topics, but I am so excited in the meantime to be able to bring to you this series of conversations I have had with my good friend Whitney Horning. We have so much fun and so much frustration as we engage in, I guess, I guess this work of polygamy research, you could call us polygamy researchers maybe. And it is incredible the things that we discover on an ongoing basis that we continually find the the excitement of the new discoveries combined with the incredible, unbelievable. Just yeah, anger and frustration over how things are spun and how these narratives are produced is it’s quite, it’s quite a ride. So we wanted to invite you all into that to, to see what it’s like. And hopefully for those who haven’t yet joined in to join in with us on this great adventure. So, um I, I hope that you will enjoy these episodes as much as we enjoyed recording them and preparing them and bringing them to you. I do want to again, thank those so sincerely who have been willing to help this podcast by donating both um information but and also resources. I hope that um more people will be able to do that as well because it would, it really helps me to be able to keep doing this. So, thank you very much for that. As always, please consider listening to the beginning episodes and understanding the journey that we have come on. But for those who are here, thank you for joining us. Please stay tuned at the end because both of these episodes, this conversation will be released in two parts because we had so much to talk about. And after recording both of them, we found new information. And so that was included as bonus content that Whitney was kindly willing to come back and talk to me again just to let you see how this continues it’s ongoing. It keeps happening. So, thank you so much for being here and I hope you enjoy this deep dive into the very murky waters of Mormon polygamy. Welcome to 100 and 32 problems. I am here. With my dear friend Whitney Horning who has agreed to come on and have what I hope will be a really fun conversation with me. I have to tell you how this, how the idea for this episode came about. So Whitney and I ended up working somewhat closely together over the, I mean, you know, we kind of always have a text thread going or a Marco Polo thread just as we’re finding resources and talking about things. And I just found that I was frequently kind of sending angry Marco Polos to Whitney when I would read something. I was like, oh my gosh, I can’t believe they said this and she would respond and be like, I know, I know and, and tell me something she had just seen or tell me about. Well, anyway, we had, we had funny conversations and I was like, we should record this. We should kind of do a collection of lesser known things that cause us some amount of what’s the word Whitney like that make us a little frustrated that we read in some of the sources. So Whitney, thank you for being here.

[03:42] Whitney: Thank you for having me. Did I

[03:44] Michelle: introduce that? All right.

[03:47] Whitney: That’s great.

[03:49] Michelle: OK, so, so Whitney actually put together a beautiful slide show that has so much information and it will be attached below for anyone that wants to look through it because then um we cut it down quite a bit for the presentation just so they are more manageable slides people can, um, look at, but there’s a ton of information additionally below. And I actually think it will be fun as you guys, as we get going, you guys will recognize what it is we’re doing and I’m sure many of you have experienced the same thing. So I think it’d be fun if we started kind of compiling these, um, what should we say them, untrustworthy sources, unreliable sources? Is that what we should call them? Like? So if you guys want to add any of the things that you’ve seen that drive you crazy because we just chose, we just chose them at random. This, this could be an entire episode on its own is kind of what, what are we going to call it? Spin doctoring historical malpractice. What were some of the, what did you say?

[04:51] Whitney: I said I like that historical malpractice.

[04:53] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. I think Jeremy Hoop gave me that one. So there are a lot of like, like, so anyway, so I’m gonna go ahead and share the um side show that Whitney made for us that with editing. So we’re gonna try to get through it the best we can. Hopefully we won’t be too confusing or confused, but I love this. So Whitney, I’m gonna let you take some of this away and um and we’ll just go. Is that good?

[05:19] Whitney: Yeah. So I think that all of us who are waking up to the idea that each of us can take upon us the responsibility or just the opportunity to study our own history, to study documents and to make our own conclusions. And so it often to me feels like those who oppose what we are trying to inspire in others is the idea that you never let the truth get in the way of a good faith promoting story. Um And it reminds me of the saying that in order to take people captive, all that is required is for people to be content with their ignorance. It is not necessary for the devil to convince you of lies, only for him to make you content in your ignorance or fearful of the search for truth. And so that’s one of the things I love about you Michelle is that you aren’t afraid to dive in and figure out the truth in these historical documents.

[06:36] Michelle: OK? What I love so much about that is that, well, I think that’s exactly why we’re doing this episode is to show why that’s so necessary. So I this is a clip I want to start with this clip that I watched clear back from um what was it? 2018? Is that when this clip was some of you may have seen this, but this was a special face to face that um the church did in 2018. I believe we’re just gonna play quite a bit of this. Those of you who have seen this may already um know the joy that awaits some of you that haven’t made are in for a surprise. So we’re just gonna play through some of this to kind of show the difference between looking at the sources yourself and just listening to the narrative we’re given. Um

[07:17] Youth Host: as you can imagine, we received quite a few questions regarding polygamy. Um for example, a young adult from Utah asked, I’ve struggled for years to come to peace about polygamy in the early church. Why was it necessary for Joseph Smith and many other leaders to practice it? And

[07:35] Michelle: I’m gonna pause it there because again, the question is why was it necessary for Joseph Smith and others to practice polygamy? And that’s what the church calls this clip. I’ll link it below, right. So right there, we’re setting the narrative. Why was it necessary because it was necessary as a given? And also I think it’s important to listen like they got a lot of questions about public me and they deserve answers. People are struggling with this and this is our like our youth, right? And so I just think it’s important to recognize what a huge issue this is in the church and how important it is to have answers that have some semblance of satisfying truth to them, right?

[08:15] Whitney: The substance, you know, so much. So many times, I feel like our sincere questions are kind of brushed aside and the idea of, hey, just put that up on your spiritual shelf, you know, you’ll understand more, you know, in the millennia, more in the next life. And I want answers that have substance, you know, the truth with substance.

[08:37] Michelle: Yes. That resonate that you can. Yeah. OK. Here we go. So, here’s the

[08:41] Youth Host: question Morgan from Florida added. What do I tell my family when they ask about polygamy in the early days of the church? They aren’t generally satisfied with the, well, we don’t practice it anymore. Answer.

[08:53] Elder Cook: Is it fair to ask you to answer this one, Kate?

[08:57] Kate Holbrook: That’s a big question.

[09:00] Michelle: So also let me

[09:03] Kate Holbrook: actually descend from people who, who chose to practice plural marriage. I have great,

[09:09] Michelle: great, sorry, I couldn’t find where to posit. So let me back that up a little bit so we can get into it. And Whitney, you feel free to tell me anywhere you want to pause it. So, OK, we’re listening again.

[09:19] Kate Holbrook: That’s a big question.

[09:21] Elder Cook: Is

[09:22] Youth Host: it when they ask about polygamy in the early days of the church? They aren’t generally satisfied with the, well, we don’t practice it anymore. Answer. Is

[09:31] Elder Cook: it fair to ask you to answer this one, Kate?

[09:34] Kate Holbrook: That’s a big question.

[09:38] Michelle: OK. So do you have anything to say about that little portion?

[09:42] Whitney: Well, I find it telling that the audience as well as the whole group, there are laughing uncomfortably.

[09:55] Michelle: The uncomfortable laughter is huge.

[09:57] Whitney: I mean, I should just say it all right.

[10:01] Michelle: And also that we have an apostle as you know, as someone who is in the position to be a special witness of Jesus Christ being asked about something that was considered a doctrine that the church still says was of God and was necessary. That’s one of the hugest issues going on and they’re asked about it and the result is, oh, this is like, it’s funny that I’m gonna, we’re all gonna acknowledge how uncomfortable this is. And I’m gonna go to the female historian, right? Because a female can make it. Ok. Like they had Brittany Nash write the book. Let’s talk about polygamy and she’s the one going around the State Center. So it’s like if we can have a woman talk about it, it’s less embarrassing, right? Less uncomfortable. And we’ll go, we’ll refer to a historian rather faith promoting historian rather than an apostle. I, I find that interesting.

[10:55] Whitney: It bothers me actually II I, several years ago, well, right after I published my book on Joseph Smith, I contacted the main church historian and asked for a meeting. I wanted to take my book and I wanted to discuss it with them. I naively thought that perhaps they, they needed um help seeing it in a different way and that they would see my research and they would all be like, oh, you’re right, like we’ve been believing this narrative and look at these documents and oh, yay, we can now change the history about Joseph Smith. Right. So I emailed and received back a reply that he was busy for the unforeseeable future. But they referred me to a female historian telling me she was, um, adept at handling female issues.

[11:55] Michelle: Oh, my gosh.

[11:58] Whitney: Yeah. So apparently is only a female issue, you

[12:02] Michelle: know, and it’s, they’re there, little lady don’t trouble your worried little head. That’s what I feel like.

[12:09] Whitney: Right. Let’s pass it on to the woman because if a woman answers this then because it’s really is only women who are bothered, right? Is what they’re saying by passing it along to her to Kate. And then all of us women then are supposed to feel like we can’t have questions anymore because a female historian answered it for us. I mean, this is just so, so problematic in so many ways

[12:38] Michelle: and it also sends a message like you said that this isn’t a man’s problem that men shouldn’t have questions about this. And you’re, it, it’s kind of like that. I don’t know. It just is sending this weird message that the only thing to worry about here is the women’s hurt feelings. And so it, it allows all that continued sort of um I think many, many men are very deeply bothered by this. So I don’t, I’m not painting all men at all, but there is um a type of Mormon man that’s just like, oh, if the women weren’t so bothered. They would understand that this is how God wants me to be a God. Right. So, it kind of enables that in a way

[13:15] Whitney: that perpetuates it.

[13:17] Michelle: Yeah. Ok. I’ll keep going.

[13:19] Kate Holbrook: Uh, but I have studied polygamy actually descend from people who, who chose to practice plural marriage.

[13:27] Michelle: I, I’m sorry, I’m going to pause it again because it still is making me mad that it’s the woman that has to be uncomfortable. She because she’s a woman. She has to and they always have to start with. It’s in my ancestry. I, you know, I just, you can see how uncomfortable she is and it’s like you’re the apostle, you take it, you take the hit, you answer the hard question. OK, me,

[13:49] Kate Holbrook: I have great, great grandmas and great, great, great grandmas. Who, who did so two of them were named Sarah. It, it wasn’t an easy path for them. One of them was the seventh wife and she just didn’t receive the resources and support that she needed to support herself and her Children, especially after her husband died. Uh One of the

[14:12] Michelle: OK, I’m sorry, I, I have to say this um Kate, I really love her. She seems like a lovely woman. It’s Kate Holbrook. She actually passed away last year. And so I don’t want to say anything to criticize her. You, you know, I just, I think she’s trying her best and I like that she is being real about it. I think Brittany Nash does the same thing. They’re like, this was awful. They’re trying to say it in a way that’s a little more palatable but it’s like I this is rude and I it, you know, but the men just smiling as she’s telling this truly heartbreaking story that makes me want to cry. Right. The seventh wife bearing Children with zero support. That’s a horrible, horrible story. Right. And they’re just like, shut down to it. They, they’re like just grinning at her not even able to tap into the empathy which is problematic. So, ok, I’ll keep going once

[15:10] Kate Holbrook: stop life. But all of the descendants say that it was the second wife that was the favorite wife. The second wife got to travel with the husband while the first wife took care of all the kids and did their laundry, made their meals.

[15:24] Michelle: Ok? I, I don’t know why Eldra cook is laughing and setting the tone for everyone to laugh. I don’t know why. That’s funny.

[15:34] Whitney: Well, and look at the faces of the young girls. I’m watching them thinking, are they all thinking to themselves? Ok. If I have to live polygamy again, I wanna be a second wife because then I get all the benefits.

[15:48] Michelle: It’s crazy. It’s crazy. And my heritage is different because it was the second wife who had all of the Children and was left home because the first wife was um in, in my great grandparents, the first wife was not able to have Children. And so, so they didn’t have quite that same thing but like to literally be left home, taking care of everyone’s Children while the second wife got to travel with everyone knowing she was the favorite. Like the, I anyway, it is not funny. There’s nothing funny. Is that an uncomfortable laugh again? Is, or is it like, oh, funny history stories? What is, like, explain that to

[16:27] Whitney: me? Yeah. I don’t, I don’t get it either. I mean, I don’t know. The only thing I can think is it is a, it is a deeply troubling topic and when we actually speak of things like Kate, speaking of actual history, actual, the people’s lives who lived it, I think the only, I think that it is, I think we don’t necessarily do a good job of tapping into our emotions and we almost have been raised in a situation as a church that we, you know, everything needs to be something that builds our faith and, and therefore if we have faith, then we’re also happy. Like there’s this connection that we make that maybe isn’t accurate. And so yes, instead of being sad because if they showed empathy and we’re sad, then I think there’s this idea that then they’re saying it was bad. You know, if we’re sad it was bad and it was wrong. But if we can be, you know, happy and, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Just just, you know, laughing it off then, then that means they were doing right. I, I don’t know. That’s the only thing I can wrap my head around is maybe that’s why

[17:45] Michelle: I think that’s a brilliant insight that it’s like we can’t afford to have empathy because we have to be too shielded up, too guarded to defend the practice that we can’t even afford and something going on. It’s like it’s an abusive thing to say if you have faith and suffering, if, if I make you suffer. Yeah, I mean, like faith is not same as suffering, right? God, Jesus always tells us to alleviate burdens, not to pile them on. And then say, you have so much faith to bear that suffering. Well, like I don’t think we honor our ancestors well, to not empathize with their suffering and to claim that it was of God when it wasn’t

[18:27] Whitney: exactly.

[18:30] Kate Holbrook: Uh but, but what I feel honored to descend from those two sarahs and from their husbands, their example has taught me to center my life on faith and their example has taught me to keep putting 1 ft in front of the other and to do so prayerfully,

[18:55] Michelle: that’s the lemonade you were just talking about. We have to see it and I can respect that. I think we can admire anybody who goes through adversity and continues. That doesn’t mean that somehow the adversity was good or certainly that it wasn’t the gospel principle right

[19:13] Kate Holbrook: to, to put their lives in a little bit of doctrinal and historical context. The instruction we have in the book of Mormon about plural marriage. It’s Jacob chapter two verse 30. And Jacob says monogamy is the Lord’s wish for his people. And there are rare exceptions where the Lord commands us to practice plural marriage in order to raise up a righteous people. This is the rare exception that Joseph Smith was commanded to instigate in, in,

[19:51] Michelle: OK. I’ll pause it. There you go ahead.

[19:55] Whitney: Oh, my goodness. Oh, do we want to get into Jacob two right now with this

[20:01] Michelle: clip or? Well, one thing I think is interesting. One thing that occurs to me is first of all, Jacob 230 was not talked about and it wasn’t in our man, like none of us knew about that as a case for polygamy. I remember like when people would discover it or, you know, like now it is being taught to our Children in seminary as the loophole, right? And, and that’s why it’s coming up here just like we all know Jacob 230. And the new, the new line is that this is the default, this is the nor you know what we’re supposed to have. But then sometimes, and we just conveniently always ignore the fact that Joseph didn’t have any Children in polygamy. And so for them to always say to raise up seed. And that’s the rare exception that Joseph Smith.

[20:50] Whitney: But so my, so I had a reader email me a couple of weeks ago with a document that he had found in Franklin D Richards um journal where Franklin D Richards was like an early twenties, like 2223 years old in Navoo. And he kept a little journal called, I think it was called like scriptural items or something like that. And so this reader stumbled upon um the notes of a sermon Hiram gave and it was, it’s dated by the church to be May 1843. But I can’t really figure out exactly what date it was. And so I’m still trying to research that. But what was fascinating to me in it, Hiram says, he um says there um there were many that had a great deal to say about the ancient order of things. So this makes me think that this is maybe one of Hiram’s last talks. I would maybe date this 1844 because from July of 1843 until they deaths in June of 1844 there was a lot of chatter about the ancient order of things. Ok. So I’m thinking this is 1844 because it makes sense to me. But he says, Hiram had a great deal to say about the ancient order of things as Solomon and David having many wives and concubines. It’s an abomination in the sight of God. If an angel from heaven should come and preach such doctrine. Hiram saying he would be sure to see his cloven foot and cloud of blackness over his head, meaning, you know, that’s a false angel, right? And then he says, Hiram says a man might have one wife concubines, he should have none. And observe that the idea was that this was given to Jacob, Jacob two given to Jacob for a perpetual principle. You can’t be, I mean,

[23:03] Michelle: well, I just, I just want to make sure that everyone’s hearing this. Like a reader sent you AAA Hiram Smith sermon that none of us have yet been aware of. This is actually like a song show.

[23:17] Whitney: And it’s so exciting because it’s exactly what I feel like you and I are are kind of mission if you want to say is to help empower people that they can go do the research too. Like this was somebody else finding it and sending it to me. And it’s amazing. It is a total bombshell. So then, so you’re, you’re seeing now that Hiram is speaking about Jacob Two and, and using it as an anti polygamy teaching right after Joseph and Hiram die, his brother-in-law Joseph fielding records in his journal. And that might be the next slide records in his journal that the women were very upset that polygamy is starting to be spoken of more openly and that the wives are pretty upset about it and that the women are going around using Jacob Two to try to get the men to stop what they’re doing. The women are using Jacob two to say man, this is an abomination. It is a whoredom. So my supposition is, is as the women were using it and probably using hiram sermon to try to get the men to stop. Then the men had to come up with the polygamy loophole. That’s my supposition is at that time, they had to create a reason why. And so they came up with the whole, well, if God commands it, but if you really understand what Jacob was saying in that sermon, he was telling the people that it, the monogamy was given as a law to their father Lehi. Um As he left Jerusalem, well, in Jerusalem that it was to be for all time. And that he’s telling the men when he says, I will command my people. What Jacobs saying is when God wants to raise a righteous seed. And I know you’ve done an episode on what it means to raise a righteous seed and absolutely brilliant. I, I absolutely agree with you on that theology behind that. But that um what he’s actually saying is God will command God gives commandments to people to help them rise up. He’s not saying I’m going to command you to do polygamy. He’s saying your commandment is monogamy and I’m giving you that commandment because I want you to be a righteous people,

[25:47] Michelle: right? I’m I’m raising you up as a covenant people. So I am giving you my commandments. I’m restating my eternal commandments that those Yahoos back there in Jerusalem. Keep messing up. Right. OK. The fact that this is not included in our history that you had to like that. Your brilliant reader found it and sent it to you and you’re now sharing it with us. Like this is a huge find. It’s ridiculous. It’s ridiculous. So we have to find it. Right. Right. OK. Thank you. That was brilliant. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I want

[26:25] Whitney: to thank my reader and anyone else out there, like send us stuff. You know, we, we know everything, we haven’t seen every document. So it’s just beautiful to me how many people are waking up to the fact that they can go search documents for themselves. And then I’m so grateful when they send them to us.

[26:45] Michelle: Oh my gosh. Yes and II, I love it. And I’m always trying to incorporate them better and better. And so yes, please send us things. I’m so glad that we showed that. So the link to that, you’ll send me the link to that, right? And we’ll have it below. So everyone can find that amazing resource that’s not on the Joseph Smith papers. You have to go to the church history library and read through Franklin D Richards Notes, but we’ll give you the link with the page number. So you’ll be able to find it because it’s so important. It’s huge. Hiram Smith is on record saying that Jacob two is not a loophole but is a perpetual law of monogamy. Ok. Incredible.

[27:23] Kate Holbrook: And Joseph Smith didn’t want to and he dragged his heels and he was reluctant for years to do this. But eventually he did implement plural marriage because he wanted to be obedient to God’s commandment to him. He tried a little to practice plural marriage in the middle 18 thirties. But it was really in 1841 that he more officially slowly began to introduce the practice of plural marriage to his trusted associates. Uh They, when they heard they were shocked. Uh They

[28:00] Michelle: OK. So I, I want you to like signal if you wanna say anything because if people have been watching these episodes or have read your book, like the things that, that are in the historical record like Hebrew and um Brigham coming up with this in England and knowing it before Joseph ever told them. And then Joseph didn’t tell them until 43 but they already were practicing it, right? And then there’s no. And anyway, they’re so, do you have anything else to add? And I, I

[28:29] Whitney: have nothing contemporary contemporaneous, contemporary with them where they are saying that it’s difficult. I have found where Hebrew C Kimball talks about that. He hopes Violet will accept it, but I found nothing where they’re saying that they were appalled or disturbed or you know, needed to take time to pray about it from the men who do end up practicing it. Instead there is a letter from and her name is actually pronounced violet. Kimball. That’s, it’s an old spelling that people today pronounce it vate Soviet, whichever you want to do. But it is a different spelling variant spelling of Violet. But there’s a letter from her to Heber where she actually talks about Parley P Pratt showing up to their house having learned the principle from a polygamy insider and how eager he is and she’s afraid he will run too fast. So my research has not uncovered anyone being hesitant except for Joseph and Hiram who were adamant that men should not enter into it and stay away from it. So this is very upsetting. I feel like this is again one of those alterations of history to promote faith in the men who did um practice polygamy.

[30:01] Michelle: Oh A that was, and that was a brilliant example you gave also William Clayton’s journals certainly doesn’t have any. I would prefer the grave. Those are all later decades later when they had to say that for various reasons. And it wasn’t consistently what they said they have their stories changed again and again, also, I she just kind of suddenly slips in, he was commanded repeatedly and, and in the thirties in the mid thirties he tried. That’s because we can’t date Fanny Alger and they consider her to be the first attempt. Right? Like, oh, and then in 41 and, you know, Don Bradley has just turned out that Louisa Beaman could like Joseph Bates Noble was lying. You know, they just say, oh, he was mistaken about the year. She wasn’t the first wife. We can’t come to the conclusion. He was a lying liar who lied because that’s what, so and so it’s like just giving this rough overview of history trying to make. And it’s like this is not true. None of this is sourced. Well, none of it’s anyway. So it’s really discouraging to see that all of our youth are. This is what they’re being taught. Hey, I’ll continue

[31:12] Kate Holbrook: pled in prayer with their father in heaven for understanding of this principle.

[31:20] Michelle: Did I say also that like the, the thing about Joseph was commanded multiple times, that’s the angel until the angel sword maybe. And you just read that source from Hiram saying, even if an angel tells you to do this, isn’t that just ironic that the story that emerged was that an angel told him to do it?

[31:41] Kate Holbrook: Yeah. And they received spiritual witnesses to them personally that this was right for them at that time. Now, as plural marriage was practiced officially for about 50 years, it was always something that people could choose.

[32:01] Michelle: Um Whitney, do you have an exception to that rule?

[32:05] Whitney: Well, I wanna say first when she says they, they, they knew it was Right. They had a burning, um, we’re taught that, you know, you have a burning in the bosom. I think their burning was somewhere else. Well, you know, so I would say they probably did have a, you know, some kind of experience letting them know this was the right thing to do.

[32:29] Michelle: What, what was it? We said over the phone this week we said they weren’t lying for the Lord. They were lying for libido. Right.

[32:36] Whitney: Right. They were, was the lion of the Lord lying. Why I am lying for

[32:44] Michelle: the Lord. Continue. Sorry, I interrupted,

[32:48] Whitney: go ahead. No, I just, I, I think there were people who, I mean, I guess we always have agency. Right. So whenever we, we all as humans find ourselves in situations throughout our lives where we do feel like we have no choice and we do always have a choice. But I do believe that there are many, many people who entered into polygamy because they felt that they didn’t have a choice because they wanted to be obedient to what they believed God had revealed and commanded. Um So I’m, I’m always actually really surprised and really pleased when I find people who talk about that, they were asked to enter into plym me and they said no, like I think that’s um I think in the culture and the climate, especially in, in Mormon, Utah in the 18 fifties. Um And on, I think there were, there was a lot of pressure and I don’t know if a lot of those saints would be able to, to say that they felt they had a choice.

[34:02] Michelle: Uh Well, we can start with all of the women who were left at home while their husbands went on missions or the converts who came home with their husband only to find that he had other wives, like, or we can go through the entire reformation when the men were threatened with their lives if they didn’t comply and join in, I mean, I mean, like to say, to say that only people who wanted to is just not true at all. And it’s hard to hear that to try to make people feel better. It’s not true. Not to mention that it says right in DNC 132 that if a woman doesn’t give her permission, then it doesn’t, then she loses her right to give her permission and she’ll be damned right and destroyed. So to claim that they all had a choice is bizarre. And then this is a smaller point that’s, I think that’s important. And then also that they had this testimony of it. Those all were written in later reminiscences in Utah. There’s not a single account of a woman having a profound, like God explained this to me, right? And none of them have any understanding to contribute to it. So.

[35:17] Whitney: Well, I think there is a story of Violet Kimball that’s told about her having, you know, struggled with it. She knew something, I mean, the story goes something along the lines. I haven’t read it for many years, but it was something along the lines that she knew something was bothering Hebrew. Um He wouldn’t tell her what it was. So she went to the Lord in prayer and had a revelation and a vision where she saw the Slasher Kingdom and saw polygamy being practiced in it and came to Hebrew and said, I have been shown a vision and how dare you keep me from this, you, you know, must enter into polygamy. So I can’t actually find that being an actual firsthand account written by her herself. It seems to have been again a faith promoting story written by someone else in later years.

[36:12] Michelle: Oh my word cause I’ve read that somewhat recently. I know the exact story but I didn’t, I hadn’t done the research you have on it. Wow, that’s amazing. OK. And also we have the letter from Hebrew saying I’m sneaking behind your back to save your feelings, right? Like, like she obviously was not like, oh Hebrew take more wives to elevate our celestial status, right? So that what we do have contemporaneous is that we know that Hebrew was sneaking and that violet was upset and that it was hurt, it was painful to her. That’s what we do know. So OK, I’ll continue.

[36:52] Kate Holbrook: We, we don’t have exact numbers in, in part because our information is incomplete and in part because it’s complicated. So scholars are still trying to get us those numbers about how many

[37:05] Michelle: records, what did Joseph say about records aren’t records important? OK, I’ll keep going.

[37:11] Kate Holbrook: Adult. Latter Day Saints actually were in plural marriages. But we know that it was a minority of people.

[37:19] Michelle: I have to make this point. I’m sorry, I keep pausing. You have to tell me if you have things to say, but listen, how much they are trying to promote that. It was hardly anyone, hardly anybody did it. Brigham was saying everybody better do this. And now one of our ways of like if this was of God, why is it so good that nobody did it? Why don’t we, everyone, if, if and if it was to raise that more seed, why don’t we want to say, look how faithful the people were. 75% of them were living this celestial doctrine. Right.

[37:48] Whitney: Exactly. It, to me it feels again like another way to try and minimize, minimize it. But you’re exactly right. I mean, if this was commanded of God and this is what all faithful people should do, then why wasn’t everyone living it?

[38:03] Michelle: Right? Would we go somewhere and say, look, only about 2% of our members go to the temple? So it’s ok because hardly anyone ever goes right. Why would we brag about that

[38:17] Kate Holbrook: people that were in plural marriages? And we know that many of them were the most devout, the most stalwart members of our church. So in 1890 Wilfred Woodruff issued a manifesto that was to end the practice of plural marriage. And when some people heard this manifesto, they were relieved, plural marriage had been hard for them and they rejoiced. And when some people heard this manifesto, they were devastated and they cried, they had sacrificed so much and they had testimonies of this principle. Now, some of you I know from your questions, wonder what does our past practice of plural marriage mean for the afterlife? For what will greet us after this life? Our church leaders have taught us that monogamy is the rule and plural marriage is the exception. And our church leaders have taught us that plural marriage is not necessary for exultation.

[39:30] Michelle: I have to pause there. OK, I’ll let you go first.

[39:36] Whitney: Well, I mean, we could. So she brings up the manifesto. So after we discuss the other things, we could go and talk about that, um I find it like, does nobody connect the dots or do very few of us connect the dots that she’s saying only the very stalwart. We know that the very stalwart practiced it? OK. So you said it’s a very small minority that practiced. Now, you’re saying it was only the most faithful, most stalwart members. So does that mean that any of my ancestors who chose not to weren’t faithful? They weren’t stalwart. And now she’s saying, um, you don’t need to worry about the next life for exultation. So, in a sense what the brother and I think they actually believe is that polygamy is reserved for the top 2% of people in the church. So if you’re not asked to practice it, then you’re not a stalwart faithful member. I mean, that’s the message that they’re giving us.

[40:40] Michelle: Do you know what that is? That lines up perfectly with my biggest haters and detractors who are the lovers of polygamy because they constantly like, why do you even care? It’s not for you. It’s only for the righteous is like something I’ve heard so like the most righteous you don’t, you don’t even need to be bothered about it. There’s so much pride attached to it just like Jacob knew OK, that I hadn’t put that together. But you’re right. It’s like, oh, it was hardly anyone, oh, but it was the most faithful ones, right? So it is that same, only 2% go to the temple, but it’s the most faithful 2%. Like what is the message

[41:18] Whitney: I had, I had a man reach out to me a few years ago about polygamy, right? And trying to convince me that it was a God and giving me all these arguments and then he says, you know, polygamy isn’t for everyone. It’s only for the most righteous that God can trust. And right now, there’s only three men in the entire world who qualify and I’m one of them. Whoa.

[41:46] Michelle: And you. But I have been told before that I have the privilege of praying to know whether I could, whether I like the invitation was made for me to pray whether I should marry this particular. It’s, it’s not happened only once. But yeah, it sounds like he was letting you know, hey, hey, honey, join on my, my train. I’m going directly to heaven and no one else is, wow, that’s amazing. Ok. The two points I wanted to hit on as well are first of all, the never answering the question about the eternity, right? Like if there is a widower and a girl is wondering if she should marry him. I had like my husband’s best friend, his wife passed away when they were just newlyweds. They were really young. Right? So when, when he was dating a girl again, like she talked to me sometimes about what does this mean? Like I’m, I’m like, we’re going to be like she just was planning from the beginning that she was sharing in the next life. So we are just avoiding the question, right? The question that all of these older women have when they’re a widow. Like, is he already married on the other side or if I die? Will he marry someone else this haunting? They just pretend it doesn’t exist and that bothers me and then I just have to respond to our church leaders have told us it’s not required for exultation. Is that what she just said? And I only, I’m just gonna grab one quote of the hundreds literally that you could grab. But um let’s see, I wish to say here to the elders of Israel to all the members of this church and kingdom that it is in the hearts of many of them to wish that the doctrine of polygamy was not taught and practiced by us. It is the word of the Lord. And I wish to say to you and all the world world that if you desire with all your hearts to obtain the blessings which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamous, at least in your faith or you will come short of enjoying this, enjoying salvation and the glory which Abraham has obtained. This is as true as that God lives. You who wish there were no such thing in existence. If you have it in your heart to say, we will pass along in the church without obeying or submitting to it in our faith or believing this order. Because for aught that we know this community may be broken up yet. And anyway, he goes on and on. But he says the man that has this in his heart and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the father and the son in celestial glory. The only men who become gods, even the sons of God are those who enter into polygamy. And I, I don’t like we just, that’s not in our history somewhere that when we’re talking about polygamy now, along with Jacob 230 and I think it should be like, how can we claim this? Right? And I maybe what she’s saying is that our leaders now say it’s not necessary and we believe our leaders now not our past leaders. And I think like what this is exposing is why this is such an uncomfortable mess. And like we said, at the beginning, people deserve satisfactory answers.

[44:50] Whitney: Well, I mean, think about that you go from Joseph Smith teaching that, you know, it’s monogamy and that’s God’s law on marriage. Then you move to Brigham Young teaching, OK. You know, God’s law is many women and in fact, you can’t become a son of God, quote unquote and be exalted, quote unquote without many wives. Then you get to the manifestos. And the first manifesto was really just like a, a political stunt. It was just designed to try and throw Congress off the scent of hunting down polygamous and let them practice it and more secretly. And so it wasn’t really until the official end of polygamy 1904 when Joseph F Smith testifies before Congress that the church has stopped doing it. And then he comes home reads another letter about ending plural marriage in um conference of April 6th 1904. And that’s when it becomes ex communicable. So you’ve now moved to families who are told you need to be polygamous to be exalted. And then now all of a sudden, well, now if you enter into it, you’re going to be excommunicated from the church. I mean, just talk about whiplash. Like, what is it? How, you know, this is a, this is a fundamental doctrine. It’s a fundamental doctrine in all religions. How do we rise up and receive the blessings that God has in store? How do we rise up and become an heir with him? Right. And so now you’ve, you’ve taken it through monogamy, polygamy now, monogamy, but polygamy for, you know, from Brigham Young from 1944 to 9 or 1844 to 1904. So is that 60 years? That’s an, that’s a couple of generations have been drilled into them that if you want to become an heir with God as the scriptures teach us, you have to have multiple wives. And now all of a sudden you can be excommunicated for the very thing that would get you exalted. I mean, it’s a, it’s a muddy mess

[47:11] Michelle: when we read when 132 itself says for my house is the house of order, not confusion, right? Like that should kill it right there. So,

[47:22] Whitney: so I have a, I have a friend, she’s passed away now. She was, I was her um visiting teacher back when it was called visiting teachers. Um I was like 30 years old and she was 80 her um her grandfather and grandmother were polygamous. Um And so 1904, when this second Manifesto makes it now that you can be excommunicated. Her grandfather chose to leave the first wife with whom he had seven Children and go live with the 16 year old who he had just married just before that second manifesto and never saw his first family ever again, moved 10 miles away in Ogden and never had any association with them ever again, completely abandoned his family. So she is right when she talks about how, so there were people who the manifesto, even though she’s not admitting there is a second manifesto that the um gospel topics essays do talk about the second Manifesto. So the church is trying to be more transparent that it did take 214 years apart but it did cause I mean, it tore apart families. So here you have families that are already struggling. I’ve yet to find one family where everyone was happy, every wife, every you know, with the husband. Um but it tore apart families. It devastated people. I mean, I think left people in terrible confusion. I mean that’s where we get all these splinter groups of, you know, the fundamentalist religions who still are doing plague me today because it was so indoctrinated that this was how you pleased God and raised up right to seed. And how you became exalted was through the system of plural marriage. So, it was, even though I’m happy that it ended,

[49:26] Michelle: it shouldn’t have ever be,

[49:28] Whitney: it never begun. Exactly. I do feel like the federal government was helping. Right. The ship, you know, the Gods ship. If you look at the restoration like a ship, it was getting off course and it was helping right. That ship and bring them maybe into a repentance, which they should have been doing for years. But it still caused tremendous, tremendous heartache in the process.

[49:56] Michelle: Yes, I did. I do want to point out one thing just based on the temple episode that I just did with all the study. I think that after 1890 members went way, way down and it wasn’t being preached anymore. So like it was still being, it was still whispered and being, but they had taken down the endowment house and it was no longer preached that this was so it kind of became again a secret, right? So even though it didn’t solve the problem, it did really help it. It tamped it down. And all of those Children that were brought to that temple dedication weren’t raised, being taught about polygamy. It was just their parents and grandparents that had to deal with the change. So I do want to like at least point out that that did really change. It didn’t, it didn’t end it but it, it ended, it being perpetuated, it ended the perpetuation of it.

[50:47] Whitney: Right. I, yeah, exactly. Like I, I’ve, in my research seen a huge decline in the number. Yeah. After

[50:55] Michelle: that, yeah. Oh, good. Ok. I’m glad we concur on that so, very

[50:59] Whitney: much. Well, think about it if you’re someone who doesn’t want to do it and you’re only doing it because your priest, a leader and president of the church that you consider a prophet is telling you to do it. And then you get, you know, I mean, you get this manifesto that you’re like, oh yeah, I don’t have to do it like I can now point to something that gives me the freedom to say no.

[51:26] Michelle: Right? And, and it wasn’t being pushed on them so they could just live their lives like I think most of them would have. And you know, so, so I think, I think it was a positive thing. It was only the connected people and there was no endowment house. It wasn’t easily done anymore. You had to go get permission from someone under the, you know, in the back alley, right? So, ok, I’ll play a little bit more of this and then,

[51:49] Kate Holbrook: or for eternal glory. Now, I as a historian and as a church member have felt it really important that although I’m grateful personally that monogamy is the rule in plural marriage is the exception that I not discount those testimonies. And that honorable obedience of our spiritual ancestors who practiced this principle because they were being obedient and they had a testimony that it was right.

[52:24] Elder Cook: Thank you very much.

[52:27] Michelle: Came to skip to another spot just because it’s a bit long. And with that, I think there is something to be said for that. I just think it’s more important to pay attention to their suffering and that it wasn’t right and that they were faithful and did it. But that I, I feel and I, I think we’ve talked about this, I feel extremely called by those who suffered and by those who perpetuated suffering through error to do what I’m doing. And so I think that we are honoring them in the most important way possible when you are honoring victims, you don’t sing praises to their victimizers, right? And you, like, if we can say polygamy, victimized people, let’s try to help people understand why polygamy is wrong. I think that’s how we honor those who were victimized by it.

[53:20] Whitney: I agree. Well, said,

[53:23] Michelle: so I’ll play this part for a minute. This is the next story. What did you, you told me what his name was? That was Kate Holbrick. This is, I

[53:30] Whitney: believe this is Matthew Grove.

[53:33] Michelle: Ok. All right. So he, he just talked for a minute and I just wanted to skip to this

[53:37] Matthew Grove: part from reading your questions about plural marriage. I know many of you have questions about Joseph Smith’s practice of plural marriage. We don’t have time to get into lots of those questions tonight. So I point you towards Saints and the gospel topics, essays.

[53:51] Michelle: That was so great because that’s exactly what our whole episode is about is these sources. So I, I don’t want time to answer your question. So go look at these sources which Whitney and I this was all just a later edition because we were planning to get into those sources, which we will continue. Maybe this will be a two part instead of just a one part. But isn’t that great? So that’s where all of your answers are,

[54:15] Whitney: right? And we have, we actually have a family member who is constantly telling us that the gospel topics, essays and saints are not the authoritative voice because they weren’t written by the first presidency yet. Here you have a church historian sitting next to an apostle who could have gently stopped him and said, oh, no, no, those are just, you know, those are just narratives written to, you know, to entertain that numbers. Right. Right. And so to me, he’s saying they are the authoritative voice,

[54:57] Michelle: right? This is what? And yeah, you’re right, the the apostle who deferred to the historians on this doctrinal question, right? And the historian is deferring to the books that the, the things that they have produced. So and with the approval of the first presidency and the 12, that’s, I’ve been told that many times Well, Brian Hall told me I’m not allowed to as a church member to publicly disagree with those because those are authoritative sources for the leaders of our church

[55:30] Matthew Grove: in Saints. The, the history is told not just through the experience of Joseph Smith or other men, but through the experience of women such as Emma Smith and Emily Partridge and Mary Elizabeth Rollins Leitner, a couple of things I would say to keep in mind about Joe

[55:49] Michelle: really quickly. Isn’t it interesting the women they chose, right? Like the, the ones who have the most to say about it. And again, deferring to the women can if the women support it, then it’s good. So I should have interrupted him here. He’s saying a couple of things. When you’re studying the history of Joseph Smith, he’s gonna give us the guidance of what we need. The

[56:10] Matthew Grove: practice of plural marriage. The first is that we know that at that time, there was a distinction between ceilings for time and eternity that involve commitments in this life and ceilings for eternity alone that only involve commitments in the life to come. We know that uh some of Joseph Smith’s ceilings that appear unusual to us and are difficult to understand, fall into that category of ceilings for eternity alone and seem to have been a,

[56:41] Michelle: I’m just curious if you have anything to say about that because I’ve, I’m still looking for that evidence.

[56:49] Whitney: Well, let’s, let’s ok. So I think what he’s trying to refer to here is, I think he’s trying to, you know, being apologetic for the idea that there are historians who say Joseph married, already married women and those would be the commitment in the next life. Does that make it any better? I mean, we’re a church that believes in eternal marriage. And so it’s so, so it was ok for Joseph to not have them here in this life. They could stay with her husband in this life. But as soon as they died now she’s the property of Joseph Smith. I mean, does that, does that mean?

[57:27] Michelle: What does that mean for the husband? Right. And it’s only those marriages that are troubling or questionable. It’s not all of them. So, like the way we try to soften like he broke Emma’s heart, he lied, he cheated, he did all of these things. But it was like some of it was just for the next life. What does that? And what are you basing that on? Yeah.

[57:49] Whitney: And, and how does that make it any better? You know, that’s one of the things that I know that, um, Don Bradley and I believe Brian Hales and maybe there’s another person I think that, you know, have made some comments about me in negative ways to try and steer people away from reading my books. But I, and one of the things that they talk about is how in the preface I talk about how I just chose to believe Joseph’s words. But they, they don’t even mention the whole idea of being an apologist. I lived 40 something years of my life being an apologist saying stuff just like this historian is saying to try and apologize for our history and to, you know, make it, make sense, right? And to make it not as bad. And that’s when I finally decided I’m not going to be unapologetic anymore. And I’m, I’m going to find truth and I’m going to speak truth and was surprised when I did that, that I started finding continual times when Joseph actually spoke the truth and denied polygamy. And so, um I just find it very fascinating that that’s exactly what he’s trying to do here is to be an apologetic, you know, like you said, soften, soften up what Joseph was, what they believe Joseph was doing by saying, oh, hey, it was just for the next life that that’s supposed to be better somehow, somehow that I, I just, I still can’t wrap my mind around that. How is that supposed to be better? Because if it’s for eternity, well, that sure sounds like an eternal hell, or at least in this life, if you were in polygamy, you could be like, ok, as soon as he dies, I’m free. Can

[59:42] Michelle: we, can we also try to like connect that to Jacob 230? If it’s to raise up seed, then why are you marry, marrying, already married women. Right. Right. To marry in the next life. Like, what does this, like, a bunch of these women were pregnant? Right. Like, how is he? Like, they’re not putting the, well, we’ll talk, we’ll play some clips from Don Bradley talking about putting puzzle pieces together. It’s like they have to keep all of these completely separate and there’s no cohesive logic to any of it. But

[1:00:19] Whitney: so this goes back to the pride of being the few select chosen men because the idea was, and it kind of goes in with the leet marriage, kind of idea that that this woman. So say that Joseph marries some woman named Ann and Ann’s currently married and currently pregnant with her husband’s child. And the church teaches that the idea is then that this woman and any Children she has with her husband are in the next life going to be the seat of Joseph Smith. So Joseph will have this huge posterity in the next life. So her husband dies and now he doesn’t have a wife and now none of his Children

[1:01:05] Michelle: and he’s separate and single, only an angel separate

[1:01:07] Whitney: and single. I mean, talk about a devastating doctrine and also a prideful doctrine because now you’re elevating Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or Hebrew C Kimball or a mass align or any number of men that they are the select few that get to have all of the Children.

[1:01:29] Michelle: And that comes up in this too. II, I think I left part of it and I might have cut it out. I’ll, I’ll go back and find, I mean, I’ll, I’ll update us it, but it goes into that bloodlines thing that people are still defending, which I find to be absolutely horrific like we needed. Rig’s magic sperm everywhere in Utah in order to have the righteous people. Like, what is this bloodlines? Monstrous nonsense. Right. Well, that,

[1:01:58] Whitney: that goes back to Hebrew C. Kimball’s letter to Violet that you were talking about where he’s apologizing for running around behind her back in secret. In that letter, he says, don’t, you know, I’ve been called of God to give my seed to any woman willing to accept it. So it goes back to this idea that these men are, you know, the holy chosen ones and aren’t you so lucky? There’s a journal of a girl who was 16 in nu in September of 1844. So, you know, a few weeks after Hiram and Joseph were murdered and she writes in her journal that Hebrew, she was really sick. They were converts of Hebrews from the East Coast, they migrated to Navoo and she writes in her journal that Hebrew had come and helped take care of her during her convalescence being sick. And that during that time, he taught her father and her about the principle of plural marriage and then proposed to her. And how lucky was she that she got to be united to God’s chosen Apostle. So where the hierarchy that gets instigated into the L DS church, right upon Joseph and Hiram’s death. If you go to Jacob, I don’t, is it three or five the whole, the long, long whole thing about the um olive trees, right? Jacob Jacob throughout it, it talks about equality, being equal, that no one is above another. No one is above the servant. The servant isn’t above anyone. The servant is there to be lower and to serve and to lift up others, right? And so it’s this whole idea that I just for me, I mean, I know that we talk about how horrific it was for the women, but we often fail to talk about or recognize how horrific this teaching was for the men. And you know, we, we have some light shed on the lost boys of the ply groups today. But that started immediately with Brigham and Hebrews

[1:04:16] Michelle: in my family history. We had to get rid of the boys.

[1:04:20] Whitney: And so then we’re left with a remnant in our church today. A remnant, a ghost teaching. I don’t know what to call it, but it’s this idea

[1:04:30] Michelle: we’re

[1:04:31] Whitney: haunting that um we have to have polygamy in the next side because there’s going to be more righteous women than men. Do you see how we treat our men? We’re constantly telling them they’re not good enough. Then we wonder as women why our husbands don’t use their priesthood more boldly. Well, they’re continually told you’re not in the hierarchy, you’re not chosen, you’re not good enough. You know, there’s going to be more righteous women and so the few righteous men are going to have to have all these wives right in the next life. Because, I mean, it’s just, and then we’ve got God telling us I’m no respecter of persons and all are equal before me.

[1:05:17] Michelle: Right. Right. OK. That’s, there’s something I was going to say, but I can’t remember. So I’m just going to keep playing him. That was beautiful. Thank you for sharing all of that

[1:05:26] Matthew Grove: about creating links between families in the next life. The other thing I would say is that the revelation to practice plural marriage did not come with an instruction manual and that any change on this scale, any change in doctrine, society and culture on this scale of beginning plural marriage is going to be difficult and it’s going, there’s gonna be some unanswered questions.

[1:05:51] Michelle: So that again is the acknowledgement that Joseph was horrible and did horrible things, right? Isn’t that basically when he’s leaving us

[1:06:00] Whitney: there? Right? But I thought now, wait a minute, Michelle, I thought that according to DNC 132 they have the Bible as the instruction manual, right? Isn’t there polygamy all throughout the Bible? So, so for pro polygamist, they have the Bible that they’re supposed to write. It’s all throughout. But then you could say like you and I would say the scriptures are an instruction manual and they say, don’t do it

[1:06:28] Michelle: well. And how about um I’m I my brain is too dead right now. So you’ll have to tell me, but not only and by the power of the Holy Ghost, you may know the truth of all things, but also the Holy Ghost will teach you all things what you should do, right? Aren’t we supposed to like? No? Um Let’s see. Yeah, it’s secondly, 5 32 5, right? That the Holy Ghost will teach you all things what you should do. And so a and you know, I know that the Lord giveth no commandment unto the Children of men say he shall prepare away for them that they may accomplish that. Like if the these polygamist um doctrines and our excuses for polygamy are just continuing on with Brigham’s non scriptural nonsense, right? We just talked in the, I just talked in the last episode on temples about how he had very little use for revelation. Like he made these claims that are in direct contrast to all the direct contradiction to all of our scriptures. And I feel like that claim is as well. It demeans Joseph Smith acknowledges that he was a mess and that he did terrible things, but he didn’t have an instruction manual and apparently he didn’t have the spirit and apparently God gave him a commandment that he couldn’t do the right way. That was too hard for him. Like, it’s ridiculous. So, and it looks, it looks like I did cut out where they talk about that. It was to raise up a right to see. And they say a couple of different times that, like, something like 20% of the population of the church is from these polygamous marriages and they have so greatly blessed the church. So, again, it’s this elitist doctrine because there’s already this bad idea of like I come from pioneer stock. And yeah,

[1:08:10] Whitney: and the thing is, you know, it is, it bothers me. I mean, there’s so many things that bother me. One of the things when they talk like that and are the people who, you know, would like to cut off our oxygen. Um Is it inherently they’re saying they’re, they’re basically accusing me of not appreciating or honoring my heritage. Um I very much appreciate, I, I thank God all the time that I have ancestors who heard Joseph Smith’s teachings joined this church, came here and raised me. I have because of that. I have a love for the book of Mormon. I have a love for Joseph Smith. I have a love for God. So to say that because I’m trying to now help right? The wrongs that my ancestors suffered is that I don’t honor them to me. Like I love earlier, you said something about that and I just absolutely love that that, that we are trying to honor those voices crying from the dust, trying to give us a warning to complete their repentance and stay as far away from this as we can.

[1:09:25] Michelle: Uh, I love it. Yes. Exactly. That’s what I, I agree. So, ok, so, so we have that elitist problem and I’m just gonna go forward to, um, elder cook does sum this up and he makes three points and one of them is, hey, we have all of this population in the church who are polygamous kids and they’re the best of the best. Remember, it was the most faithful. I mean, he’s not saying that I’m adding that in, but let me get this last point. He makes interesting

[1:09:53] Elder Cook: one is that in the councils of the church uh in the senior councils of the church, uh There’s a feeling that Brigay as it was practiced uh served its purpose and we should honor those saints, but that purpose has been accomplished and that, that it isn’t necessary. Now, there are unanswered questions. Uh And we don’t always receive revelation on everything.

[1:10:17] Michelle: Wow, this is an apostle of the Lord saying we don’t always receive. It’s like you are talking about this core doctrine. That is the biggest issue for so many people in the church and we don’t always receive revelation on everything. Well, you know, I’m getting tons of divine guidance and I know that’s maybe a big, but I am, I’m being led to things I know you are as well. You know other people as well. People have amazing experiences when they open, when they open their hearts to this and open their minds to this. When the confirmation of the spirit that people describe again and again is profound. And so what is, what reminds me um again, my mind is drawing a blade. But if you do not have revelations, if you don’t have signs among you, it is not, it is because you have no faith. Right? Exactly. So, so we should be having revelation. We should be having revelation. And I feel

[1:11:17] Whitney: like I feel like he’s talking out of both sides of his mouth because on one hand, we’re told, um the brethren will never lead you astray. And then, and anything that comes out of their mouth is the mind and will of the Lord, which is what revelation is. And then on the other hand, he’s saying, well, we don’t receive revelation on everything and you know, this whole polygamy thing, like it’s, it’s served its purpose, it’s, it’s done. And I think, well, which is it, you know, I don’t understand. I don’t understand why, like you’ve pointed out so many times and I point this out in my book, I don’t understand why they can’t just stand up and admit this is another one of Brigham’s bad ideas. I’m like, let’s just be done with it. Like let’s just, they’ve admitted racism was bad. They, you know, they admitted that blood at Toma was bad. The Adam do the Adam God theory was bad. Like this is just yet again, another bad idea. Let’s just admit it. And then, then we don’t have to have these uncomfortable chats where we, we’re flooded with questions that we don’t want to answer. We can just say, you know what? It was a bad idea. Brighams. There we go. Simple.

[1:12:31] Michelle: Do you know what? I so agree. Yeah. Like the discomfort throughout this whole thing where you and I are like, so comfortable in our skin. Let’s talk about like people are posting memes all the time making fun of like, hey, let’s talk about polygamy. Like I, I just, I just went to the dentist this week. I talked to her for like 15 minutes about polygamy because she was asking like, oh, what do you do? And I was like, well, but like we’re desperate to talk about it all the time because truth is so amazing, right? And one other thing I want to say about what he’s saying here, like, well, I appreciate it because this is something I’ve been able to share with people to say, hey, like you’re saying polygamy is in our future and that I’m wrong. But listen to Eldra Cook, he just said it served its purpose that does lead us all the believable. What was its purpose? And if, if you disagree with everything, Brigham young and worse. And pratt and, um, Hebrew Kimball, you know, all, all of those, if you disagree with everything they taught about polygamy, which you’re doing, then why are you agreeing with polygamy? Right. Right. Like there’s no consistency. But, but what’s bothering me is he again, is doing this sort of gas lighting about this hunting, this eternal question that bothers so many people. Um, I’m, I’m, I just scheduled an interview with a good friend who I just learned had married a young widow. I didn’t know that as a young couple. And so he’s lived with this haunting his whole life because he’s in that situation. You talked about where he’s not sealed to his wife and he’s, ah, and he’s not sealed to his Children, you know. And, um, and this is so gaslighting those people in those situations that deserve answers that make sense and of all of the things to get revelation on, maybe this would be a good one. And God says I give like, all you have to do is ask and you’ll receive, right? Isn’t that what we’ve all done? And it is true.

[1:14:28] Whitney: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Amen.

[1:14:31] Michelle: Ok. I’ll keep going on this

[1:14:34] Elder Cook: President Ballard and I were laughing about this the other day and saying, uh, when the millennium comes, there’s 1000 years and we’re gonna need 1000 years to, uh, get the answers to all of the issues that surround everything. But

[1:14:49] Michelle: again, the acknowledgment of II, I try not to be hard on our leaders and I, but it’s such an acknowledgment of the blind leading the blind, right? Like no, he’s saying we don’t have any answers, we have no answers and, and we can joke about that. We have no answers and it’s really actually heartbreaking. Like I don’t want, you know, I don’t wanna hurt anybody’s faith. I don’t want to be critical. I just, we need to acknowledge the truth of these things and and allow people to follow the Lord instead of following a hierarchy, hierarchical structure of leaders who are acknowledging repeatedly that they can’t give you the answers you seek.

[1:15:34] Whitney: And I would like to just add a little story too because I, I think there’s this idea that especially the brethren, know everything and know everything about church history. And you know, we need to have so much charity and compassion because so we have a good friend, Vernon and I have a good friend who several years ago was struggling with this question about polygamy. And so he had a friend who knew Elder Ballard. And so this friend wanted to help our friend. And so he made an appointment with Elder Ballard and the two went into his office and they started, you know, peppering him with their questions and he put up his hands and he said, stop, stop, stop, stop right there. I am just a used car salesman. I don’t know anything about church history. I can’t help you. On one hand, we could say, well, how dare they. But, you know, these are men who had big careers. A lot of them had very high stress, high, busy, high octane, high work hours a week careers,

[1:16:53] Michelle: serving at high church callings. Exactly.

[1:16:56] Whitney: That’s what I was going to say, serving in high church callings that, that just doesn’t leave them time. Like we met a sick president a few years ago who has never read the book of Mormon. And he said, when do I have time? I am serving, serving, serving and working, working, working to provide for my family. And so while we would love to think that all of our leaders, you know, have read every single document that they’ve, they know everything about church history. They, they even understand the scriptures backwards and forwards. That’s just not how it is. And we could sit there and be critical of that or we could really have compassion and charity. But part of that is I think the reason people get critical is because then they sit at meetings like this and, and pass off expertise and do the whole, just pat the members on the head and say, you know, doubt your doubts, not your faith. And, and I think if they were, I think if they were more honest and more transparent, but I think they get afraid that if they were to be that way that, then we would, then we would all lose our faith. I mean, everything is so much of it is. And that’s why, you know, our whole presentation tonight is about altering of history to promote faith. Instead of allowing us, allow us to struggle, allow us to have our own wrestle with God. I mean, the whole story of Jacob in the Bible, he wrestles blessings from God to the point. It puts out his hip wrestling with God is how we learn and grow. And so let us have that freedom, let us have the freedom. And sometimes yes, we’re gonna fall on our face. Sometimes we’re going to maybe make mistakes. Maybe our compass is gonna point south and God’s got to reorient us back to the north. But you know, we’re here to exercise our agency. And so I think there’s a real fear. I, I can feel it as a parent, I feel that sometimes this fear of wanting to control a narrative of any kind for my Children to help keep them from the potholes and the bruises and the broken bones of spiritually speaking. But um when I do that, eventually something gets them, something that they have to face on their own. And so I can understand why our leaders want everything in nice little tidy packages and to, to kind of keep us. Um I think it was Elder Ballard that gave the talk, stay on the good ships and, and I think he even like, stay safely in the middle. But um I remember when he gave that talk, I um poured my heart out to the Lord and was like, is that really what we’re supposed to do? Like, I don’t, I don’t know, I’m like, I, I need to know and I immediately had um the scripture come to mind of Peter and I heard the words Peter got out of the boat, you know, he gets out into a raging storm to walk on water to go to the Lord. So, you know, I mean, it’s scary and I’m gonna tell you, it’s scary and, and I think that, you know, the scriptures tell us, you know, be careful that you’re not deceived, but we could protect ourselves and bubble wrap ourselves so much. Um trying to avoid being deceived and trying to avoid any pain, but that’s not how we grow and it’s not how we do it to the Lord,

[1:20:33] Michelle: right? OK. I love that. I, for me how I like for me how that interpretation is because that’s like chills, that’s a profound answer. And for me, it’s not, it’s not necessarily about staying in the church or out of the church. It’s where you’re called, it’s about comfort, it’s about staying because I, because what I like what you’re saying about sort of the devouring mother, right? That like won’t allow her Children to grow and what the church should. I hate to say should. But what I wish we were doing is strengthening people so that they are empowered to go out and fight the spiritual battles, right? And to grapple with those questions, to spiritually prepare them rather than keeping them kind of sheltered and bubble wrapped and so weak. And then we’re doing that through lies. So if we were to tell the truth, like we’re doing here like, hey, this is the truth. This is what this person said. This is what the scriptures say. This is what Joseph said. This is what Brigham said. Go look at it, right? Those might be somewhat hard for people to deal with but how but but people get strengthened through that process, right? And we’re giving them truth rather than, oh, don’t look at anything. I will just tell you a little story. Oh But you’re going to find out that Joseph was like, like sexually manipulating 14 year olds and then go grapple with that and you have no muscle to do it. You know, you have no preparation and the very worst version, right? Why do people

[1:22:04] Whitney: read a gospel topics, essay and lose all one essay they’re done. Why is a ce S letter so powerful because we’re not inoculating anyone by creating this beautiful um sugar coated history, right? And so I could see where some people would say, well, that’s what I’m doing, right by saying Joseph’s not a polygamist. I’m sugarcoating it, but

[1:22:34] Michelle: I am looking at,

[1:22:36] Whitney: yeah, I think that when you start, you know, exposing the warts, you have to, then grapple because I know that there’s people who, um, accuse you and I in particular about, well, if Joseph didn’t do it, then that means, and Brigham did, then what does that mean for him? And then what does that mean about this leader? And then what does it mean about this leader? And I’m like, well, well, why is it OK? That we have to grapple with Joseph Smith, but we don’t have to grapple with the others. Like why is it? OK? That Joseph Smith is the bad guy. But then we sugar coat that by saying and apologetically saying, well, he was lying for the Lord. Well, then what does that mean about the Lord? We have all these things. We’re still grappling with that, that clip you’re showing they pan the audience. It’s a huge group of people and their number one question they’re all coming with is polygamy. So like there are great answers to it if we actually just speak the truth about it,

[1:23:39] Michelle: right? And I think I, I have a lot of people ask me about how, why would God let this happen? How, what does that mean for? You know, and I wanted to do a full episode on it. It’s just that my doc gets so full. But let’s talk about that right here for a minute. Like if, if that’s OK with you. Because for me, you know, my husband and I have talked about this as I pondered it like you could say that about anything. How could God let this happen? Right? How could God let tragedy happen? The fact is God’s plan, God’s ways are not our ways, but which people say that about polygamy. What a stupid use of that. What it means is like we’re down here on a little checkers board and God is playing 3d chess, right? I think maybe I’ve said some of these things before, but I do think that the people who chose to follow Brigham gave Brigham common consent, which is how our scriptures say that the church is supposed to work, right? So he did have the like, like you could say the exact same thing about how could God that happened among the Jews, how could he let them so misunderstand and get so muddled, muddied into the the legalistic version of the gospel and then, and then crucify Jesus Christ. How could Caiaphas be the leader of the chosen people who had the temples and had the covenants and have the scriptures and had the bloodlines if we want to go there. But they had every claim to being the true Children of God even more than we do because we have to be adopted in, right? Like they were God and God did allowed all of that to happen. God allowed terrible things to happen and still, that’s the line that Jesus came through, right? That Jesus came to those people. And so I don’t think, I think it’s kind of um, like, I think these are ok things to grapple with that help that help us mature in our faith, to be able to, to go, you know what God’s got this, this is all in God’s hands. And yes, God allowed Brigham to do this. I don’t think God inspired, you know, but God allowed and the people that followed him followed him and that was in God’s hand. But look what God is inspiring. Now. He’s inspiring us and others to the uh we’re past the 3rd and 4th generation and we are being inspired to do this and all of the pieces of the restoration, I see us coming back together and finding more and more truth. And, you know, so I, I think it’s um I think it’s OK to grapple with these real questions. And I think that the church, you cannot preserve faith through lies because people, the one of the reasons like when people say the church lied to me, they’re right. Like this fireside is showing they’re right. The church did lie to you. I don’t think that these leaders and historians are necessarily doing it on purpose. Hopefully, they’re like, you know, you only see what you’re looking for and they’re trying to come up with these faith promoting narratives. And I think I don’t want to like, disparage anybody because I think we’re all trying even if I disagree with some of what they’re doing, you know, but I think it is a massive disservice to all of the youth that are hearing this and all of the people hearing it because like, how is this uncomfortable? Let’s just like this unsatisfying uncomfortable answer. Who is this helping? How is that going to keep people in the church? Whereas if we can go, hey, you guys, look, the roots were awesome. The branches got a little wonky. Oh But you know what it talks about that right here in the book of Mormon. Like, look, look, this is it. We’re, we’re right on schedule, right? It’s exactly what’s supposed to be happening. I think that is so much more faith promoting and guess what God is always there to accept any degree of repentance and step we take toward God. God’s there. We’re not done. We’re not, it’s not an all or you know, like we can repent as individuals and the church. And so I think that saying, how could God allow it to go off? Course? Well, because we’re on a fallen world. The awesome thing is God allows it to come back on course too. That’s what we are. That, that’s beautiful. Anyway, I don’t know if you have anything to add to that. I

[1:27:53] Whitney: mean, exactly what you’re saying. Um It brings to mind when people I’ve had people say to me. Well, what about Abraham? You know, and what about Jacob in the Bible? Um, I think it’s exactly what you’re saying. I think that faith, God recognizes faith anywhere and he honors repentance. And those men, I believe those, those stories are in our Bible to, to inspire us, to know that he worked with men who, because of their culture and the circumstances they were placed in. You know, Sarah couldn’t have a baby. Hagar was technically a surrogate mother that was allowed in their culture. Then you get Jacob who is tricked into polygamy by a dishonest father-in-law. And he says, if he were to have divorced Leia, that she would have been um basically a scarlet letter on her for the rest of her life in their community, their culture. So these are cultural things that these families, I mean that all of the stories and the scriptures are about families, right? Like if we just boil it down to, it’s a family. These are families trying to get along with each other, trying to get along in society and trying to follow God. And so those stories to me are so inspiring because it, it tells me that God never leaves anyone behind. He works with all of us where we are and he accepts our repentance and he works with that repentance to bring us to become better people. And so it it’s, it’s upsetting to me when people think that we’re saying you know anything disparaging about anyone because I’m trying to promote charity for all of us. Like all of us have made mistakes. All of us have thought one way only to find out and to believe a different way. All of us are in constant need of repentance. And so if anything like celebrate with us that we’re, we’re trying to, um, repent over, you know what we used to believe about Joseph Smith and that we’re trying to repent over how we used to. I mean, I just like you, I used to give the, um, the pat little answer that, oh, we’ll understand. Plym me when we die in heaven, right? I mean, all of us are trying to repent and,

[1:30:27] Michelle: right. Well, what not just what we thought about Joseph Smith, but what we thought about God because like you said, the book stops with God. Yeah, like that was my big repentance was that I believed that God was capable of this and at some point it would make sense.

[1:30:42] Whitney: Yeah. And that, that’s what he thought of his daughters, right? That we could be one of and not the one. But, yeah. So I guess for me, I get, I guess I get a little frustrated, um, when people try to, to silence us by a lot of claims that it just, just, just aren’t true and they don’t serve anyone. Um, yes, you have to grapple with. What does this mean about Brigham Young I had to grapple with that. Yes, you have to grapple with what does that mean then about the succession? But just like you said, the people that followed Brigham to Utah gave him by common consent, the right to be their leader. God works with God works with faith wherever it is found. And so it is our faith that matters. You go read the lectures on faith and it says right there, the worlds were created by faith. The foundation of the worlds were laid by faith. It is our faith and our repentance individual. Then as a couple, then as a family than as a society that matters to God.

[1:31:52] Michelle: Ah And what are the first two principles of the gospel? Like, like we can just go faith have faith that it’s gonna be ok and repentance

[1:32:01] Whitney: like and so why does, why does God let it happen? Why does God let any of us make choices that this entire world is based on agency? Because we all learn by experience as um Leigh says to his son. He says it’s by our experience or maybe it’s alma. Maybe both of them might sometimes get confused. I I can remember concepts of the scriptures, but I can’t always remember where it’s at. But they say um it is by, I think it is Le Ha because he said without the bitter, we would never know the sweet. So how could we ever know truth if we don’t have to sift through the lies and deception,

[1:32:47] Michelle: the opposition in all things,

[1:32:49] Whitney: opposition in all things. Yeah, we’re in this grand experiment. Sometimes I tell Vern, I feel like I’m like, we’re all rats in a cage and God’s up there going, oh, let’s put a piece of cheese over here and see what they do, you know, like, sometimes I feel like, but for me, that kind of helps me go. OK. Well, what did I learn by experience? Right? Am I learning to hear truth to understand it, to resonate when I hear it? Am I learning how to discern between truth and error?

[1:33:19] Michelle: That? Ok, that’s what it comes down to because I wanted to just add like this is an individual experience. We’re in fact, the purpose of earth is for us to grow, right? And if like, like what would the alternative be God reestablished? The gospel? And all of a sudden struggle ceases and all we do is just sit comfortably in Zion and never have to row, never have to write, never have to like, just like you said, we’re trying to learn discernment. If there’s no question about truth or error, how do we learn discernment? Right? So if we look at this instead of like, oh, this is about an organization and an institution. No, it’s about an individual, it’s about me, it’s about you. It is about our walk with God. Are we learning to be humble to have faith to repent, to have discernment to, right? Are we learning those things? That’s the question. So it’s not about the, the like the question of how could God let this happen? It’s so that you could grow. And that’s the answer to every single question, every single thing in life. The the question is because we came to this corrupted world, this fallen world where there is where unfair things happen, there is sickness, there is disease, there is, there are accidents, there are, you know, natural disasters, like how you could ask that about anything. And I really think in part, that question of how could God let this happen is kind of still born out of a paradigm that we need to break through of that. It’s all perfect, right? It’s this perfect paradigm and, and so like, like it’s like, well, how could God not let my paradigm be perfect? So do do you know they’re still thinking it has to be this perfect picture and it’s like no welcome to the struggle. Now you get to start really growing and that’s, there’s nothing better, there’s nothing better. It’s terrifying for a minute. But then man, the rewards. So, ok, I don’t, I don’t know if there’s anything left in this clip, but just in case there was,

[1:35:27] Elder Cook: we have a loving heavenly father who has a perfect plan that his plan is one of happiness that we have a savior who did everything for us. We can trust in them.

[1:35:40] Michelle: Hm. Ok. So I guess that’s

[1:35:42] Whitney: actually a beautiful ending. I agree. You know, put our trust in the Lord.

[1:35:48] Michelle: It is. If we were talking about anything else, I’m gonna be rude again. But it’s a plan of happiness.

[1:35:56] Whitney: Well, and actually does it say that anywhere? Because I know it says man is that he might have joy and joy is actually different than happiness.

[1:36:06] Michelle: But, but joy or happiness don’t live in the same house as polygamy. No, I mean, and so that’s what I’m trying to say if we’re going to call it the plan of happiness and it’s all about families and this is how we’ve shaped it. Now we have to deal more honestly with, with this haunting, right? So, so that’s why it’s interesting

[1:36:30] Whitney: because again, you could say here there, here he, you know, his ending comments begin with the whole, we talked about it in the councils. It’s not necessary anymore. So it’s not a thing but then he ends with, but now we’ve been talking about polygamy and the plan of happiness. And so you could, I could see people saying well, which is it, you know, do because Brigham taught you had to be exalted, which is the plan of salvation or plan of happiness. So yeah, again, I could see where people I could see that maybe there were a lot of very confused young adults out there thinking, well, what is the plan of happiness. And what does that mean? And especially where like you brought up, they still do steal polygamous marriages in the temple. I mean, they have to have a spouse that’s dead. And then, and then, oh, and then only if you’re a man whose wife is

[1:37:32] Michelle: dead, the women can, now, now

[1:37:35] Whitney: that, that’s a recent change, right? And so then I’m like, so, so then can women

[1:37:41] Michelle: more than one? How does that work? What does that mean?

[1:37:44] Whitney: There is a lot of confusion and I just, I don’t think God is a God of confusion. I loved how you brought up that scripture that his house is a house of order, which means organization and patterns, right? And so

[1:37:57] Michelle: one of those true verses from 132 that I think is valid, right? But I think that um anyway, I guess my question is, were those people satisfied? Did they go away going? Oh, now polygamy, I can, I can take that off of my shelf. That’s sophomore. I

[1:38:15] Whitney: wouldn’t have a 1617, 18 year old if I’d been in that audience. No, it would have still been firmly on my shelf.

[1:38:24] Michelle: Ok. So I, I completely agree and it might have been worse. And I just was sitting there like wanting to cry looking at all of those that beautiful youth that maybe most of them will end up leaving the church and maybe most of those who leave will end up leaving God and that, and I think this, it breaks my heart and I think this is a big part of the reason why. And, um, and so I’m hoping that like, we can get to them first. You know,

[1:38:54] Whitney: like I, I want to go back to you brought it up when elder cook said, well, hey, elder balder and I, you know, we were joking about how the millennium we’re going to need that 1000 years to answer all these questions. And I think, well, it didn’t take me 1000 years,

[1:39:09] Michelle: right?

[1:39:10] Whitney: Like I would say, it took me a solid 30 or 40 to really think through a bit to when I really got in and started really researching. That was a few years. Um So, yeah, there’s, there are answers out there if they would be brave enough to and, and I think I can see, ok, I can see where it’s a muddy mess, right? Because I can see where, like it, like the new Mormon historian is, everybody, everybody should be believed.

[1:39:40] Michelle: We’re gonna get into this in the slide show. Yeah. So you keep going. You’ve

[1:39:44] Whitney: got Joseph’s constant consistent, emphatic public denials. Then we’ve got all these other, you know, 1315 100 pieces of documents, right? Of people saying he did it and if they didn’t know he did it, then they heard it from somebody else who said he did it. Um Well, at least, at least I don’t give the narrative to us at least give us the documents and be an impartial historian who says, here’s all the evidence. Here you go. You God gave you a mind capable of understanding as Joseph taught and, and I agree and you go read it and then you just, you choose for yourself, like let us choose, like present us on, don’t, don’t present the evidence. And we have this in the slide show like where like, because that’s one of the things you and I talked about this whole discussion between Michelle and I started months ago when I had come on her podcast and talked about my new book, Hiram Smith and Hire Smith’s um sermon. The damn foolish doctrine of polygamy recalls polygamy a damn foolish doctrine. And it’s just a few like a couple of months before he dies and it disappears off of the Joseph Smith papers.

[1:41:03] Michelle: We’re gonna get to this. So don’t go too much. Yeah.

[1:41:07] Whitney: So that started us on this whole um long conversation for months now. Just her and I would be like, whoa, did you see this document? And did you see how the historians spun this? And so I have in my eyes showing her that in my Joseph Smith papers book where the historians are making commentary and I’ve like written next to it lies, lies, lies. So like if you’re gonna be transparent and honest, present the information like you and I don’t tell people, you need to believe this way. We tell people, hey, we read this stuff. We’ve made this choice. You go read it and you make a choice.

[1:41:44] Michelle: Right. Or? Yeah. And I don’t, I don’t even like to make a choice language. I like that. What do you think is the most, I guess? I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s not like we’re just choosing, it’s like this is what it said.

[1:41:56] Whitney: We have used reason. And, um, I’m like, we’re

[1:42:01] Michelle: looking at the actual sources.

[1:42:03] Whitney: Yeah, exactly. And we aren’t just, it isn’t as simple as I love how they just always passed me off as, oh, and she just chose to believe Joseph. Right. Well, yeah, after, but there’s no,

[1:42:16] Michelle: you finally, you finally were like, nothing makes sense. Nothing makes sense. I wonder if that might make sense and then you try that. What is it like, plant the seed, test it, test it and all of a sudden that grew, that was the first thing that made sense. And that’s what I think. Well, that I was going to say it didn’t take either of us 1000 years, but I think a huge, like, I’m so thankful that God told me to do that sounds, but, you know, I’m so thankful that I, that this is my calling because I feel like you and I didn’t have your book and didn’t have my podcast. I did, right? Like we’re trying to make this even more, um, available to

[1:43:00] Whitney: people. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Right.

[1:43:05] Michelle: And so people can, can get this information the same way that we are. And, yeah, anyway, I think it’s, I think it’s great fun. So, can I go back and add the slide show and? Sure. Yeah.

[1:43:15] Whitney: Where do we want to go? We kind of covered some of it. So we don’t necessarily need to do all of it. But

[1:43:20] Michelle: yeah, so everyone will just skip around with us. Let me get back where I can um direct it. But so this is what we’re talking about is like a faith promoting story. And I just have to again, make the point. It does not promote faith. It’s a story that doesn’t promote faith. So, OK, so here we go. This. Do you want to tell him about this?

[1:43:39] Whitney: Yes. So I received a desert book invitation and I think it was just, you know, mass mailing, right? A mass email. I’m on their email list. And so this was, I think back in June and it was the final um they were celebrating the, the publication of the final book in the Joseph Smith papers project that, you know, they’ve been working on for years and years and years. So I thought, well, I wouldn’t mind going because they were gonna have a panel of the historians. And I thought, you know, maybe I’ll ask some questions, they were gonna have a question and answer with the audience So I show up and that is the banner, I mean, it looks small in this, but it was 30 40 50 ft long, you know, 1520 ft tall over. And that all the historians, the whole panel, which was like seven or eight of them sitting underneath the banner and the banner says that the Joseph Smith papers are the authoritative source for the writings, teachings and records of Joseph Smith. So at first I saw that and I’m like, oh, you’re the authoritative voice, are you? I would think Joseph would be the authoritative voice on his own work. But here we are. So I’m sitting there in the audience and somebody asked a question and I don’t even remember what the question was, but the historian answered, he said, hey, look, historians are all speculating, all historians speculate. But we urge you to speculate responsibly. And I thought, well, that’s probably the most honest thing they’ve said. But then they went on to somebody asked a question about um Joseph Smith and Emma and polygamy. And again, there was one female historian and all the rest are males and all the males turned to her and said, would you like to handle this question about Emma and polygamy? And she went on to state facts that I’m like, no, that’s speculation about how Emma felt about polygamy. But, you know, stated as a fact. And so I, I just found it so ironic and so beautiful because I’m like, yes, if they’re all speculating, then it be more responsible with it.

[1:46:12] Michelle: Ok. That’s so great. I, sorry, go ahead. What? It was

[1:46:17] Whitney: just an interesting evening. I actually ended up not asking any questions because um I just was at a loss for words because so many things that they stated as fact that there’s zero proof of. So it was a little bit frustrating and I was ready to leave before

[1:46:37] Michelle: it was, I love that. I love that speculate response, possibly, quote. I think it’s brilliant. And what I find fra frustrating is that in those private sessions, they’ll acknowledge that they speculate. But then for us, we do see this consistent pattern and i it’s not just the historians, it’s also like, you know, those who are saying these books are authoritative and like Brian Hill is telling me, I’m not allowed to disagree publicly with these historians. So there are these consistent patterns of hiding documents. We’re going to talk about some of these things to our presentation, altering documents, pushing tra traditional narratives and squelching que questions. I think that’s very true. So this was funny, we talked about this a little bit. But at what point do you have to agree with the church? At what point in our history? Just, well, we should have that. He didn’t do it because that was Joseph originally, right? He didn’t do it, then he did it, then he didn’t do it. Then he did it. I wanted to include some pictures, I would say, like during Joseph’s life, the narrative was, he didn’t do it right. And starting 1852 he did it and boy, did he ever do it? Right. And then getting into the two thousands, no, he didn’t do it. And we get starting getting those statues of Joseph and Emma and they’re this happy couple that we had, you know, but when, before she was poisoning him and threatening to divorce him, right? And now we’re back and he did it again. So.

[1:48:11] Whitney: Well, I think, you know, when you say that, that um I have a lot of people who will say, well, why would Brigham need to pin it on Joseph? Um You know, Brigham was his own man and why, why did you need to pin it on Joseph? And in a nutshell, really, this all boils down to in Navoo they wanted to get away with their business. And so, you know, they would tell people, hey, Joseph’s letting us, you know Joseph’s on board. But, um, really, it didn’t really start being pinned on Joseph till 1852. And when they publicly announced polygamy in Utah, it was all a political move because Brigham had been advised by a US congressman that if they wanted to be allowed to because the law in the land was monogamy and you could be prosecuted for Bigamy polygamy and they considered it adultery. Um legally. And so he was advised that if he could prove that it was a um foundational tenet of Joseph Smith, then they could use the um declaration, right that says, you know that we’re allowed men, man should be allowed to um the freedom of religion. So it was the whole freedom of religion ploy. So that’s when all the stuff started getting said, oh, it was Joseph, it was Joseph. Joseph started it because it was all political. It was all a political move. So that’s the easiest way to explain it.

[1:49:44] Michelle: That’s fascinating. And it makes it make more sense. The senator that Brigham was talking about in that August 1852 special conference when Andy talks about the senator that he talked to has said this is the best system. There is the rest of the US is going to rot away if they don’t have your wonderful system. OK. That’s fascinating that it reminds me of actually the truth of the proclamation on the family that was also written to be able to do an amicus am amicus brief, amicus brief. Oh, I’m not pronouncing it, right? But to the case in Hawaii, and they needed to prove that they had a reason to be involved in the case of, of gay marriage in Hawaii. It was a similar thing. That’s interesting.

[1:50:22] Whitney: So what’s interesting is after 1904 in the manifesto, the church went through a long period where Joseph didn’t do it. That’s where they get that. And then Joseph statue that’s in um Temple Square. You know, they really went through it. Ok. Yeah, it was all a ploy for the government. Now, we’re a state, 1896. We’re a state. Now, now we’ve got this Manifesto. Second manifesto. We don’t do it anymore. Ok. Now, we can be honest, Joseph didn’t do it. And then it was in the, well fawn brodie writes her book in 1945 but everyone at the time knew she was just mad at her family and was

[1:50:58] Michelle: wanting to write just

[1:51:00] Whitney: an anti Mormon book, right? So then probably 19 sixties, 19 seventies, we start getting the new Mormon historian where anti Mormons were getting a hold of more and more documents that Brigham had had created and Joseph F Smith had had created for the government purpose of fooling the government that Joseph, you know, is a foundational tenant of the church. Um They start getting hold of those and, and the new Mormon historians, I kind of say that they wanted to play nice in the sandbox and then also maybe be a little edgy like, hey, you can take me serious as a real historian because I’m bringing forth um this dirty, nasty part of our past. And I’m not a, I’m not shying away from Joseph having done political to me. And so really, then we now shifted really in the 19 seventies, 19 eighties, 19 nineties two back to Joseph did it. So and here we are trying to write the shiver yet again, back to Joseph didn’t do it. And let’s be honest about our history. Enough documents have now come forward where we can easily explain why there’s so many documents saying he did it and we can easily show that Joseph spent his, his lifetime saying he wasn’t involved and didn’t do it.

[1:52:21] Michelle: Awesome. OK. So here is now, speaking of the authoritative sources, this is what we were told to go to, right. So we’ll dig in a little bit to the gospel topics and you had pulled out some of the things from the introduction to them. So I have, I think two slides about this. Do you want to talk about?

[1:52:43] Whitney: Well, so, first of all, for those who might be watching us and aren’t familiar with the gospel topics, essays, um they are not written by the brethren. They are written by, you know, people that they pulled in and asked who are quote unquote experts. Um And as we had mentioned earlier in this podcast, there’s a lot of people whose testimonies have been completely damaged by these essays. Um And I think one of the reasons being that in a lot of the essays, they will make statements like, well, that’s how it was done in the past, but it’s not done that way today. And so we’re just supposed to take it off our shelf and be done with it. And so they really, to me, um, bring in a lot of questions, a add questions that don’t need to be there because it’s, they’re not using good history and not using good sourcing. Um, and then, but so it’s, it’s, to me ironic that they say that it requires us to distinguish between reliable sources and unreliable sources. And I think that, um, a lot of people know just kind of inherently, but I think it’s these, these kind of subtle messaging that gets put into our brains that the L ds.org and the L DS historians are the reliable and anything that’s not on L ds.org and doesn’t have a church historians name behind, it is unreliable. And so it just does a lot of disservice to, um, us finding truth because it really kind of puts us in a, a fearful position that, oh, you better not trust an unreliable source.

[1:54:28] Michelle: Yeah. And it’s kind of, especially concerning it. Like there seem to have been, it’s my perception is there have been quite a few talks by, um, church leaders and even like, even, especially by Sister Nelson Wendy Nelson about, like, don’t listen to any voices other than my husband only, he’s the prophet of God, only listen to him. And that’s a concerning stance to hear. I don’t like that. And especially when they, it’s just so, uh, uh, like, it, it just feels totalitarian, like there are good sources and bad sources. We’re the good sources and I don’t like censorship in that way at all and saying at once wasn’t enough. So they go on and repeat it with, you know, the, the, the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. What, what is it? Recognizing that today? So much information about the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints can be obtained from questionable and often inaccurate sources that they started to put the trap, the these gospel topics, essays together. And it’s just, it’s difficult. I do agree. There are lots of questionable and inaccurate sources. The problem is they believe a lot of them and incorporate a lot of them into their narratives. So you can go on and look at questionable and inaccurate sources.

[1:55:50] Whitney: So as, um I think it was Matthew Grove, the historian in that clip we played and he said, you know, he told the, the people, hey, if you have questions, go read the gospel topics, essays and saints. Well, you know, um Saints was first, um the first volume was published in 2018. And um it’s supposed to be eventually a four volume set. They’re on volume three right now. Um The preface of it states this true stories well told, can inspire, caution, entertain and instruct Brigham Young understood the power of a good story that’s just

[1:56:34] Michelle: priceless. You know,

[1:56:37] Whitney: it’s so great. It’s so great. Yeah.

[1:56:43] Michelle: And then it also, well, you have the other quote as well.

[1:56:46] Whitney: Yeah, you can go ahead, you can read that and

[1:56:48] Michelle: that it’s a narrative history, a narrative history designed to give readers a foundational understanding of church history. It sounds like it’s similar to what were those books that were all the rage? The work and the glory.

[1:57:02] Whitney: Exactly. That’s exactly what I compare this to it reads.

[1:57:08] Michelle: So it’s like it don’t think of this as church history, think of this as historical fiction, just like the work in the glory. But it’s in some ways more problematic because it’s inaccurate historical fiction. So, ok. Should I go ahead? Yeah. So, oh, I don’t know if I’m on the same page as you with what you want to talk about. But, yeah, yeah, you’re good. But we do have a record of what happened during Joseph’s life, right.

[1:57:33] Whitney: So a lot of times they’ll bring up the word contemporary or contemporaneous and that means it happened during the person’s lifetime. And so I know that, um, somebody, once, I don’t know, a few weeks ago, made the statement that this isn’t, this isn’t tried in a Court of law and it shouldn’t be. And I’m like, well, why not? I mean, a court of law should be our highest, um, way to tell. Like, if we, if we, if something can’t pass a test in a court of law, right? Then, like, we didn’t, then it shouldn’t be reliable.

[1:58:10] Michelle: It’s our highest means our most um authoritative means of finding truth that we have found. It’s not perfect, but it’s the best we have found of how to sort out complicated truth when there are people with different motives and different narratives. A court of law is the best way we found to sort through that the best way possible.

[1:58:30] Whitney: Perfect. So in a court of law, contemporary evidence would be given the most um valid weight, right? It would be considered the most valid anything that was produced after the person died. So we first of all, you wouldn’t try something in a court of law who’s died. I mean, they, they have a right to defend themselves. But if you were to bring this case to a court of law, any evidence uh created or obtained or um yeah, created is the best way of saying it after Joseph died would be, would not, would be given lesser weight to no weight at all because it wasn’t created while he was alive. So um the Saints relies on people who were considered traitors to Joseph during his lifetime. They rely on them because that is the only contemporaneous source. So here’s so right. So while Joseph was alive,

[1:59:35] Michelle: he go through the contemporaneous. OK. OK. So they inherently

[1:59:40] Whitney: denied any teaching of involvement in plural marriage. All of Joseph’s scriptures and revelations support monogamy and decry polygamy. And as a church body, they had, they canonized the law of the church on marriage or is also called a Statement on Marriage, which is about monogamy. Published in 1835 is Section 101 republished again in the 1844 Doctrine and covenants of Section 109. And there was also published numerous times in the Times and Seasons newspaper to remind the saints and the world. This church, the law of God to this church on marriage is one man, one wife, no concubines, period. Could it be any more simple or

[2:00:32] Michelle: plain? Right? And for the people, uh the people so committed to this that they’re like, well, well, um Oliver Cow who did they say wrote that? Oliver Cowdry. Oliver Cowdry wrote that. It’s so silly. Joseph Smith was the head of the committee to prepare the 1835 doctor and co Joseph Smith didn’t let things happen that he didn’t like in general. He had, he was pretty like, like think of, I just talked about the windows and the um William weeks didn’t want to do full circle with those. And Joseph said I will have windows the way I saw them in my vision, you know, like he was pretty sure to do what he thought God wanted him to do. He didn’t muddle around that. He didn’t mince words. And he was the one in charge of both of those printings 1835 and 1844. And he included it and published it several times in newspapers to make sure the Saints. Got it. Ok. Go ahead.

[2:01:26] Whitney: Well, just really quick guess where we get the story from that. It was Oliver CRE who wrote it who Brigham Young? Brigham Young is the one who says, well, that was written by Oliver Cowdrey. So, you know, we can just,

[2:01:41] Michelle: I knew that. Why am I not surprised? Ok. So next time someone tells me that. Yeah. Ok. Well, Joseph Smith didn’t apparently know that. So it’s Brigham Young. That’s great. Ok, so yeah, this is what you’re talking about. Like these are the ways that evidence should, is weighed in the court of law and absolutely should be weighed by historians. And the like if you have a later account that is heavily motivated, it is not a good source. And then we go to the additional problem of authentic or forged and documents can be forged by the people who actually wrote them. William Clayton could have forged his own journal, right? I maybe forgery isn’t the right word, but he could have created a fraudulent history in his own journal. So they could have, you know, like, like I would say he did do that in that in that. That’s a

[2:02:36] Whitney: perfect way of saying it. Yeah, people did. I mean, I found the History of Hebrew C. Kimball that was written by William Clayton, but he wrote it as if Heber C Kimball had written it. And so we have, we have all kinds of um documents that were later reminiscences or later um creations trying to, you know, prove that something happened.

[2:03:06] Michelle: Yes. And I’m we, that’s the exact same with Joseph Smith’s History. Willard Richards wrote a lot of it in first person and some of the things I I’ve found that I’m gonna present as soon as I can are just going to blow people away because it is, it is a made up story that all of a sudden, um later, later made up story that all of a sudden becomes firsthand Joseph saying it in his own words at the time it happened and that’s how it’s presented. So we have the original forgeries, I guess I can call them that like forgeries by the person who actually wrote it, but it’s fraudulent. But then we also have the huge problem of like Mark Hoffman that is not being adequately addressed and I’m going to bring for forward more of those sources as well by both of these things I’m talking about are in my upcoming um endowments episode as soon as I can possibly get that ready. So these things have to be taken seriously. They are in the court of law. But for some reason, historians don’t take them seriously enough in my opinion, just like you said, all are given equal weight, every source is given equal

[2:04:04] Whitney: weight. Well, you know, where you and I are often accused of being biased, you know, I’m often accused of being biased. Like, oh, she made up her mind, she’s going to believe Joseph. So, now she’s just things from that narrative. Well, personally I would like to meet anyone who isn’t biased in this world. But, you know, one of the things I’ve noticed with the, um, academics and the historians is they very much have a bias of supporting other academics. You know, and other historians, like, they will take their work, they’ll take the work of somebody with a phd over someone like me. Right. You know, so that’s, that’s not a bias. There’s also the bias of church historians who want to continue to perpetuate the narrative that, you know, the, the um succession and that the church is true and, and I, I haven’t quite grasped why they think that if they were honest about Joseph and honest about him not being a polygamist, I don’t quite understand why they think that would affect them today. But for whatever reason, they feel like they’ve got to keep, um, they, they can’t let Brigham be tainted at all, like it’s all going to be on Joseph and then everyone else was just being faithful to him. And so that’s a bias. Right.

[2:05:25] Michelle: Absolutely. In fact, I want to play this, well, maybe I’ll play this clip later, but I have a clip that the dress is right, right there because I think it’s really funny, but we’ll go on with this slide show and then we’ll get there in a minute. But, um, I think it is important to, like, they try so hard to, especially you to like, demean you by just saying you have a bias, which I find to be truly ridiculous. In fact, in the like, like, and then if you listen, they’ll go on and admit their bias, right? They have so much bias and we, I think that there, it’s not like you have to have changed your position to have credibility. It’s the sources that give you credibility. But the fact that we have changed our positions based on sources should kind of reveal that we’re not going on bias, we’re going on sources, right? Because if we were biased, we would just, it’s like the people that are just arguing in favor of polygamy always just telling me that I don’t have that I’m not righteous enough and I don’t have enough faith. You know, if I have enough faith, then nothing has to make sense, I guess. Right?

[2:06:29] Whitney: Ok. I’m blind following the blind. And I think that scripture ends with saying and they all fall in it, right?

[2:06:39] Michelle: So this is a good time as I go to this next slide to read, um Doctrine and Covenants 122 verse three, which is thy people shall never be turned against thee by the testimony of traitors, right? And I actually love four as well. And although their influence shall cast thee into trouble and into bars and walls and thou shalt he had, thou shalt be had in honor. And, but for a small moment, and thy voice shall be more terrible in the midst of thine enemies than the fierce lion because of thy righteousness and thy God shall stand by thee forever and ever. And I think that’s worth recognizing because of people who mock you because you say, hey, let’s listen to what Joseph Smith said. And so when L DS people ignore this, ignore what Joseph Smith said. And instead listen to people like John Bennett, I have to wonder if they’ve read that scripture. So and so

[2:07:35] Whitney: that’s where I go back to again saying that I feel like the Mormon historians of the last, you know, two or three decades have decided they’ve adopted the idea that every single person was telling the truth. And so they then say, well, you know, John C Bennett must have been telling the truth. Well, John C Bennett rolls into navoo. Um he had left a wife and Children, didn’t tell anyone. Rosen and au pretending like he’s single. He um was pretty charismatic and pretty good at selling himself. And so he becomes um elected as mayor, he becomes an assistant into the first presidency. Meanwhile, he is going around Nabu seducing women using Joseph’s name. You know, when women would say, hey, you know, we’re not married, he’d say, oh, it’s OK. Joseph said it’s ok as long as we keep it between ourselves. You know, we’re adults. Um When he was confronted with, first of all, confronted with um his first time he was confronted, it was that, hey, we found out you have a wife and Children and you’re passing yourself off as a single man and courting the women here in navoo, he promises to reform. Um then he becomes even more debauches and more um more of a yes. There you go. More brazen in his behavior. He is then again confronted with it and he actually swears out an affidavit that Joseph never taught anything to him. That was immoral or improper in any way. And then he ends up being excommunicated um removed from,

[2:09:22] Michelle: he was only just fellowship, but he was, he was punished in any case. He left n in shape. And yes.

[2:09:28] Whitney: So he leaves Navoo in disgrace and did not go away. Quietly starts publishing um anti Mormon pamphlets and smear campaign against Joseph. He’s, you know, pretty um pretty upset that he really lashes out at them, right?

[2:09:51] Michelle: So he, yeah, he writes six letters, I think that are published in the Sangamo Journal and other newspapers. He’s the first sort of authoritative voice accusing Joseph Smith of spiritual wifey, right? And, and

[2:10:05] Whitney: he was basically a polygamy or a Nabu insider, right? Like he was the mayor and he was rubbing

[2:10:12] Michelle: shoulders, the counselor in the first presidency,

[2:10:15] Whitney: right? So people thought he was telling the truth,

[2:10:20] Michelle: right? And so Yeah. So Joseph and Hiram however, did not believe he was telling the truth. Right.

[2:10:28] Whitney: Right. No. So they, they take out like, they first publishes a little tiny, little snippet. Hey, you know, we’ve, um, removed the hand of fellowship to John C Bennett. Well, then he was still in nu at the time and still causing problems. So then they take out an entire, um, the whole newspaper to publicly disavow him and to try to stop the behavior that he had kind of started going in NV. He started kind of these underground, you know, sex rings kind of an idea. And so they take out this as a warning that he’s a scoundrel, he’s a liar, he’s a traitor and then everything he’s saying our base falsehoods, anything he’s saying negative about Joseph are actual falsehoods. They take out this whole spread in the paper. Then later Joseph goes and gets a bunch of affidavits and prints a, a sheet is what it was called like a, a pamphlet or a tract. And he sends 300 elders throughout the country to disavow the public of the things that um Bennett, the lies that Bennett has been spreading about himself and about the church.

[2:11:42] Michelle: Ok. So he did everything in his power to try to contradict and combat what Bennett was doing and yet, like, he couldn’t have done much more, but everyone just ignores that and it’s like, well, he just had a guilty conscience So what could he have done if you were innocent? Right. So, ok, now,

[2:12:04] Whitney: today, now, today we um so there’s no, so here’s the bottom line, there is zero contemporary evidence that says Joseph did polygamy from any trustworthy person. The only contemporary quote unquote evidence comes from traitors. One of them being John Bennett. So today in Saints volume one, which we as a church have been directed to go read, to understand pygmy. It says this on page 485. Of volume one, much of what John Bennett had written was embellished or flatly untrue. But his claim that Joseph had married multiple women was correct. So here we are, we now as an entire church in our church approved church history have now just believed the testimony of a traitor.

[2:13:04] Michelle: So everything that Joseph Smith said, all of his efforts, all of his, everything is undermined by John Bennett’s claims. John Bennett is the the is one of the two main sources, William Clayton and John Bennett are the main sources of Joseph’s polygamy I would say. And one thing I find so interesting and upsetting about this is, well, first of all, as you were talking about John Bennett, he really was like the consummate psychopath like super, I mean, a narcissistic psychopath, super charismatic, but he always had to go start somewhere new before his past could catch up with him, right? So because, and then he left, he left NAVOO in disgrace just like he left his previous location in Disgrace, went somewhere else and they all loved him at first because he was telling the story about the Mormons. But before long, they were throwing tomatoes at him, which someone said that to me. And it made me laugh aloud because he was the tomato champion. He he thought tomato and tomatoes were a panacea to heal everything. But that’s who John Bennett was right. And the question that I have for these church historians and for the proponents of polygamy and our church leaders who are pushing this narrative is, was John Bennett, what Brian Hall would call a polygamy insider? Or was he not everyone who says that Joseph was doing polygamy says that he was pushing it on everyone else, right? Like it wasn’t just him. He all of these other men had wives, the polygamy insiders, the super special elite, Secret Dakota Ring club, right? And so if John CB, so he was in the first presidency, so if he was a polygamy insider, why didn’t he have plural wives? As far as I understand, he didn’t even have one wife in NFU because yet, right, he didn’t marry a second wife. So he had no other wives. And so why wasn’t he given authorization to become a polygamist if he was a polygamy insider? And if he wasn’t a polygamy insider, how would he know about Joseph’s polygamy and Joseph’s wife?

[2:15:15] Whitney: Excellent point. And if so the way, one of the ways that the church historians and apologetics um spin this is, they say, because, you know, there’s so much evidence of how Joseph felt about what Bennett was doing that you can’t brush that aside and brush it away. So what they’ve done instead is they make statements and it’s insane. So they make a statement that um what Bena was doing was basically this worldly thing, right? And it, it had no,

[2:15:50] Michelle: it had,

[2:15:50] Whitney: it had no, um, it wasn’t, Joseph was doing a high and holy celestial ordinance that had nothing to do with Bennett’s spiritual wiery. Well, I’m with you. Why didn’t, why didn’t Joseph just go to Bennett and say, hey, stop sleeping around? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Go marry these women and make it official, like, go tell them that they’re your wife because you couldn’t legally marry a woman, right? So, any woman past wife, number one had to have just been, you know, a sec, super secret priest ordinance, kind of idea. But still, exactly, why wouldn’t he have said, hey, you’re embarrassing the church. You need to go make these spiritually illegal. I mean,

[2:16:38] Michelle: it doesn’t mean they have to choose that. Was he, was he a polygamy insider or was he not? You have to pick a lane on this?

[2:16:47] Whitney: And if he was a polygamy insider, then why did Joseph

[2:16:51] Michelle: consist, wasn’t he?

[2:16:53] Whitney: And why was he considered a traitor? And if he wasn’t a polygamy? Insider. Then he didn’t know what he would just got lucky in using some initials that somebody then found women whose names matched.

[2:17:06] Michelle: Right. Or the Right. Right. That’s what? Right. And I will point out a couple of things William Law filled in for him and he didn’t have a clue about who the supposed wives were. Like, like I’m gonna do part four in the nave exposure, which will include the one case that William tried to blame Joseph with and had nothing. He had nothing on who Joseph was. Like, he had no idea who these supposed wives were. Right? So it wasn’t like everyone around Joseph knew like it was this big secret. Nobody knew, but John Bennett knew why. Right. And for the um sort of anti Joseph anti Mormon types that claim that um no, they were, they were both doing this sleeping around thing, but John Bennett was too loud about it and it got out. That’s what that, that’s why they say like they, they were both just sleeping around. But John Bennett got found out. So Joseph cut him out. Right. Well, that’s a complete lie because the reason John Bennett’s got found out is because Joseph and Hiram investigated it. Right. Right. It wasn’t known before Joe, before Bennett got kicked out, it wasn’t going all around Joseph. Isn’t this right? Joseph and Hiram intentionally got the testimony and investigated and found out and found out what was happening with the, what are their names? The Hig BS and, you know, the others that were involved, if they were trying to cover it up, why would they do this big investigation if that were the problem? So,

[2:18:35] Whitney: exactly, they would have gone to him and said, you know, you need to leave town quietly like you just need to go. Right. Yeah. No, they did a whole big expose and that’s why I think, you know, again, like if they again, here we are. I mean, I’m so glad you read that scripture because we’re literally basing Joseph this, this sin and this abomination as God calls it in Jacob two. And again, later when he talks about Rish being a polygamous in the book of Mormon and when he talks about Noah did wickedly and abominably, right? And wicked King, no one has polygamous wives, right? So God’s consistent, he consistently through the book of Mormon calls it an abomination. So where today our church with our history narrative are placing this abomination on the shoulders of Joseph Smith based on the testimony of this traitor.

[2:19:32] Michelle: Wasn’t that a brilliant point that she just made? I want to again, give a huge thank you to Whitney Horning for all of the amazing work that she has done on this topic. I really hope that this has been an eye opening experience for many of you who maybe haven’t seen some of these resources, maybe some of you have and I would have loved to join in this conversation. I hope that there will be vigorous commentary, vigorous discussion in the comments below so that we can see what’s happening and try to expose it and help more and more people wake up and maybe help give the church permission to take a little, you know, turn on this on on the way of handling this narrative because I think we would do a lot better with a different direction. And so again, I, as I said, there is bonus content to follow. Please stay tuned for that. I want to thank you again for joining me and please stay tuned for next week where you will get part two of this fantastic conversation. Ok. So it is one day before we are releasing this video, but I called Whitney tonight. Well, actually, we’ve been Marco Polo all day again and I was like, Whitney, could we jump back on even though we’ve both been doing laundry and cleaning up and doing our crazy lives all day, she agreed to jump back on because again, even since recording these, this two part episode last week, we’ve been talking more and we found some crazy things that I’ve really, really wanted to share. So thank you for being willing to jump back on Whitney. You’re awesome. It has been a crazy couple of days, hasn’t it?

[2:21:20] Whitney: It has.

[2:21:22] Michelle: So today to just catch everyone up really fast. Um I was supposed to be working on my next Temple episode, which I’m trying to do feverishly. But, um, someone asked, it was Charlie Price, who is the daughter in law of Pamela Price? Who did the Joseph Smith fought polygamy? And she’s fabulous and helping with, I think it’s volume four. So she asked online, when does the church claim Hiram Smith was introduced to polygamy? What date? And, um, that’s something you’ve been looking into. Right. Right. So, and I didn’t know that, but I went ahead and was like, well, I’ll just take time away from what I’m supposed to be doing to go look up the Brigham sermon of when Brigham claims that it was. So I shared here, I’ll go ahead and share it with the, with the share on the screen. What we, so this is the complete discourses of Brigham Young. They’re all available on auto on, um, on Kindle, which is fabulous because you can search keywords, which is really helpful. So from volume four on October 6 October 8th, 1866 Brigham gives this horrible, horrible talk that I shared with her because I think it’s a fantastic example of how Brigham just said, whatever he wanted to say with zero evidence for it. And to me this is a great example where you can just see Brigham being massively dishonest. So I’ll read just really quickly. He claims this was in the year 1842 and he says that Hiram saw me and said, Brother Brigham, I want to talk to you. We went together and sat upon the rails that were piled up. He commenced by saying, I have a question to ask you in the first place. I say unto you that I do know that you and the 12 know some things that I do not know. I can understand this by the motions and talk and doings of Joseph. And I know there is something or other which I do not understand that is revealed to the 12. Is this? So I replied, I do not, I do not know anything about what you know, but I know what I know. Then he said I have mistrusted for a long time that Joseph had received a revelation that a man should have more than one wife and he has hinted as much to me, but I would not bear it. The thing that makes me crazy about this. First of all is that Hiram would go to Brigham Young to verify this instead of going to Joseph. It’s ridiculous on so many levels. Do you have anything to add yet? I’m gonna keep

[2:23:43] Whitney: going. One of the things that jumped out to me as you were reading this is that in January of 1841 the Lord um calls Hiram to be the core and the co prophet and tells him to learn from Joseph. And we have so many examples of Hiram and Joseph being at each other’s side constantly and consistently. So for something that is supposedly as massive revelation as this for the 12 to hear about it and hire him to only hear hints and nods and wink, winks about it around town and to not hear it from Joseph and Joseph was disobeying the Lord because the Lord commanded Joseph to teach Hiram how to be a prophet and a president of the

[2:24:32] Michelle: church. Ok. Ok. That’s beautiful. I love it. Also, Brigham is claiming this is in 1842. We know that Hiram goes on after this to give multiple vehement ser sermons against polygamy, right? But but Brigham made those disappear. So he thinks he can just say this. He keeps going on. He, he goes on now to talk about how Joseph came to him. I’ve read this before and I’ll include the link again. So if anyone wants to go read it, Joseph goes and says, come with me to preach tonight and Barrett Brigham says, I can’t, I can’t stand to be around those people, William Law and Hiram who speak against you. And Bri and Joseph says, if you don’t go, I won’t go. And so Brigham’s like, OK, and then they go to this c they go to this meeting and they hear Hiram preaching about the, the um scriptures and says anything more, more than this cometh of evil. And Joseph has his head in his hands and says, Brigham get up and Brigham gets up and, and completely undermines everything that Hiram says. I wouldn’t give a rice straw for these books if it weren’t for the living oracles. And he preaches so um fervently and convincingly that Hiram stands up and apologizes to the congregation for everything that he had said. So this is the what, what Brigham claims after talking about this. Then he goes back and oh yeah, Hebrew Campbell says I was there and Brigham says, yes and a good many others were there and heard the lion roar. Speaking of himself. That’s how he sums up him putting Hiram in his place by Joseph’s request because you know, I I mean, it’s just ridiculous. It’s insane. Then he goes on and says, I will now now go back to where I met Hiram. He said to me, I am convinced that there is something that has not been told me. I said to him, brother Hiram. Joseph would tell you everything the Lord reveals to him if he could. Uh it’s so gross that Brigham is Joseph’s confidant and Hiram has to be called to repentance by Brigham. I must confess this. I felt a little sarcastic against Hiram, although he and then he goes on to say, although he was such a good man, he goes on and says, Brother Hiram, I will tell you about this thing which you do not know if you will swear with an uplifted hand before God that you will never say another word against Joseph and his doings and the doctrines. He is preaching to the people. He replied, I will do it with all my heart. And he stood up on his feet saying I want to know the truth and to be saved. And he made a covenant there never again to bring forward one argument or use any influence against Joseph’s doings. Did he make a covenant with Brigham? I, I’m not quite sure, but he made a covenant right there. Joseph had many wives sealed to him. I told Hiram the whole whole story and he bowed to it and wept like a child and said, God be praised. He went to Joseph and told him what he had learned and renewed his covenant with Joseph. So I guess it was a covenant to Brigham renewed his covenant with Joseph and they went heart and heart hand at heart and hand together while they lived and they were together when they died and they are together now defending Israel and his whole point in giving this sermon. So George George, a Smith had preached right before this and had talked about Joseph ordaining Hiram to be his successor. And Brigham Young starts out by saying now I know that George A Smith is the church historian and he has a good memory, but he doesn’t remember this, right? He was too young and I need to correct him. So he always does that when someone’s not telling the story he wants them to tell. So anyway, I I shared this with Charney just kind of going well. According to Brigham Young, it was 1842 because the truth is there’s not a date that Hiram was 1st, 1st accepted plural marriage because we made it all up, right? So I shared this and then someone commented and said that on the church website, they said it was May 14th 1842. So at that point, that’s when I Marco Polo Whitney, because I was so incensed that the church included this reference on their website. And in their church history, my feeling was Brigham Young says this one thing, it’s October 8th 1866. So again, decades later, absolutely nothing to substantiate it to back it up. There’s no evidence for any of it and it goes against tons of the things that they, you know, it goes against what there is evidence for. And like even for example, Hiram married his first plural wife, August 1843. That’s when he supposedly married mercy. So he was taught it by Brigham in 1842 but waited an entire year to year and a half before he first married a wife after weeping like a child. And you know, I mean, but, but I was so frustrated that the church accept this ridiculous thing that Brigham Young says, no questions, asked yet every single thing that Joseph Emma and Hiram ever said was a lie. I was so frustrated,

[2:29:29] Whitney: it is frustrating. And I think this is a perfect example of how the church historians or whoever it is writing this new narrative. Um you picks and chooses because that discourse is exact proof that Brigham say 1842. And then on their website, they change it to May 14th, 1843 because they have all this evidence that Hiram was speaking out against it. And so, and um the talk that we um I have to,

[2:30:04] Michelle: I have to fill them, let me fill them in and how this happened today. Is that ok, Marco Paed Whitney and was like, oh, can you believe this? And I told her that someone had commented and said, well on the church website, it says it’s May, is it 13th, 14th, May 14th, 1843. I was like, where did they even get that? Like II, I asked Whitney, is there any evidence for that? So then Whitney came back and told me now tell

[2:30:29] Whitney: so his anti polygamy sermon, one of one of the few that we have is on Jacob chapter two was given in the morning of May 14th, 1843. So do does the church saying then that he gives his anti plaga speech? He brings up Jacob two. He says it is given as a perpetual principle, perpetual meaning it never to go away. That men should have one wife only and no concubines. So he gives that in the morning and then, then are they now claiming that by the afternoon he’s weeping like a child begging Brigham to. Oh, yes. Now I believe. And I understand and my sermon this morning was wrong. I mean, it’s, it, it, it is so frustrating how their targets keep changing and their narrative keeps changing. And, and I was looking at like Michelle and I were discussing this, you know, through Marco Polo today and, and I’m like, this is the pretzel language, the pretzeled language that Brian Hales claims Joseph Smith used to, you know, lie about polygamy into life of the Lord. The pretzeled language belongs to the historians who make Joseph a polygamist. If you believe Joseph and Emma Hiram’s words, there’s no pretz it’s absolutely certain. They don’t make up dates. We don’t have to make up times. We can specifically point to sermons to um public denials, to newspaper articles to court cases where they in no uncertain terms, deny polygamy, say it’s an abomination. You shouldn’t do it. It’s not right. It’s not a God, et cetera, et cetera. No pretz when we take that. And then we put the narrative of Brigham Young and William Clayton and other known polygamists whose dates changed and were all over the place. Then the pret ling begins because we’ve got to try and figure out, well, why was Hiram on May 14th, 1843 at the temple giving a sermon denouncing plural marriage. And then, but yet Berham said this in 1842 that he claimed in 1842. And then, and then supposedly married some polygamous women in, in August. And so now the pretz la begins.

[2:32:51] Michelle: So, so what Brigham said is absolutely correct. We quote him verbatim except we leave out the date that Brigham said it happened because that can’t be so they come back. I did not like, I’m not familiar enough with. This was the Hiram sermon that we just talked about in this episode that was recorded at the Levi Richards. So Levi Richards recorded this sermon that the Hiram gave amazing sermon about Jacob two that a perpetual law. And the church takes Brigham’s story and was like, well, it must have been at least after Hiram’s sermon um that Levi Richards recorded. So it’s gotta be that day or later. And then, and Whitney made that connection. So I went ahead and looked up, let me see if I can share this. Um, looked up where on the website it said it. So this is Saints chapter 14 that I’m gonna let me see that. Thank you. Change volume one chapter 40. You’re exactly right. It even says it right there. So it’s late at night for me. So, um anyway, I’m gonna scroll down to where this OK chapter 40 I’ve decided I have to do an entire episode on this one because I have to count the number of I’m sorry, lies like they are lies. The claims in this are insane. I haven’t brought myself to read Saints and I think I started with the worst possible chapter because United in an everlasting covenant, this is like hitting right at it. So let me go down to where it does work in this hiram um sermon because Whitney, you pointed out that it was totally hidden, right? The hiram sermon, didn’t you have to dig to even find? Well, I actually

[2:34:33] Whitney: had a reader that was reading Levi Richards journals on the church history library website and sent it to me and said, have you ever seen this? And it is really difficult to find?

[2:34:46] Michelle: Ok. But Whitney and her research today found that, well, I’ll get, I’ll get to that in a minute that Da Bradley and Brian Hales wrote a paper which included it. So they absolutely know about it, which is, and also here it is in chapter 40 of the um of saints. So this is what it says on May 14th while Joseph was away at another conference. Hiram preached in the temple against men, having more than one wife referring to Jacob’s condemnation of unauthorized plural marriages in the book of Mormon Hiram called The Practice an abomination before God. That’s the sermon, right? That’s the Levi Richards recording. Then listen, what it does after the sermon. Hiram began to question his own certainty about what he had taught I, I just can’t, this is complete fiction. I can’t discussions about plural marriage swirls around navoo and rumors that Joseph had several wives were also common. Hiram wanted to believe this was not the case, but he wondered if Joseph was not telling him something that this is now, this is all from Brigham, right from Brigham’s sermon that we uh Brigham’s sermon that we just read. There had been times after all when Joseph had alluded to the practice, perhaps testing Hiram to see how he would react. And Hiram sensed there was, there were some things that Joseph told the 12 that he had not taught him. One day after the sermon, Hiram saw Brigham near his home and asked if they could talk. I know there is something or other which I do not understand that is revealed to the 12. He said, is this? So the men sat down on a pile of rail of fence rails. This is right out of Brigham Young. I do not know anything about what you know, Brigham answered cautiously. Oh, they added the cautiously. But I know what I know. I have mistrusted for a long time that Joseph had received a revelation that a man should have more than one wife. Hiram said, I will tell you about this. Brigham said, if you will swear with an uplifted hand before God, that you will never say another word against Joseph and his doings and the doctrines, he is preaching. Hiram stood up. I will do it with all my heart. He said, I want to know the truth as Brigham taught him about, about the Lord’s revelation on Joe on plural marriage. Hiram wept convinced that Joseph had acted under commandment. Honestly, that’s what they did with that. I, I find it completely appalling.

[2:37:10] Whitney: Well, yeah. And think about like, so you, you bring out like in this episode, we bring out the actual Jacob two sermon recorded by Levi Richards. Then you bring out Brigham’s discourse and then we bring out the saints and it’s just this mixing and mingling and mishmash to make it fit to make all the pieces fit, right? Like, but it, it’s, it is not transparent historical truth. It is a false narrative that has now been created and is now published and is now going to become like people are now going to quote from the saints and use it as a proof and evidence instead of going to the original sources because the original sources do not back up this story. It is so frustrating, but it exactly proves what this episode is about.

[2:38:07] Michelle: It’s insane. And so we wanted to share this the fact that they include that Mar for, I mean May 14th date, Brigham said 1842 they change it to May 14th, 1843 so that they can work it around the hiram sermon that they know full well about. This is so it just fits so perfectly with what we’re talking about and that we had to include it. So, um

[2:38:31] Whitney: you know, it’s one thing, it’s one thing for us to be battling a past narrative, like, like we could say in the past, they did not have access to as much material that we have today. So I could say, ok, those historians were doing the best they could at the time with the documents they had access to. But today there should be zero reason to create a new false narrative. Today there zero, we have the evidence. Now we can see the documents like just lay the truth out like and, and you know, it does come, I mean, I do have compassion on everyone who believes Joseph did it because there is a mountain of evidence of Brigham Joseph F Smith, those people all created, right? But today there is enough evidence of that so much of it like this like it is so obvious. Brigham said one thing and now we’ve got to turn it into another thing because oh, well, we got, you know, massage this so that it’s more believable, right? Like we gotta, we gotta pretend like we’re being um truthful historians, but I’m just like, you know, just put it out there just like I know it is just so frustrating. I feel like we are fighting a battle that’s occurring as fast as people like you and me who are in this battle to exonerate Joseph and Emma and Hiram and to set out the truth. And, and really, quite frankly, to me, this really the only reason Joseph em and Hiram Matter is because the character of God matters. And so we’re fighting this battle and then it feels like this other side is taking everything they think we can possibly use to prove our case and then twisting and turning it and massaging it and manipulating it to, to, you know, just continue to uphold their narrative and to um poke holes, try to poke holes in ours. But for me, I just think it, it’s, it’s hard for the people who don’t know how to research. Like you have done so much to learn how to research. Like you’ve really dove all in and you spend hours and hours and hours. And so like today we are, we’re doing laundry and we’re, you know, Michelle’s cleaned up after her Thanksgiving and my family Thanksgiving is tomorrow. So I’m preparing for it and we’re, you know, watching kids and driving kids places and all this and then in between running and researching. But like we, we’ve really gotten good at researching so we can, you know, it doesn’t take us too many hours to find things. I it really bothers me for the people who are listening to these things and reading these things who first of all don’t think to go research. They’re just like they, I’ve been taught, we’ve all been taught. The church doesn’t lead us astray. So, it, it’s on L ds.org. It’s truth. Right. And so it takes a lot to be brave enough to say, I’m going to go research what’s on there and I’m going to find out for myself if it’s really true. Because why would we even think that it’s not? So, that’s my first frustration. And then the second one is, I’m frustrated with those who are trying to learn how to research or are allowing themselves to question, they are asking, you know, some questions and wanting to answers and then they take this mismatch and they would never think to go do the research that you’ve done to find out all of the lies that are woven into what three little paragraphs

[2:42:35] Michelle: it’s, it’s like Saints has made us hit a new low. It’s like we’ve hit a new low, right? And so, oh, it’s incredible. OK. So I just had to pause for a minute because we have another thing we’re going to talk about, but I couldn’t remember if it’s in part one or part two. So I just um found out from my producer that it’s in part two. So we’re gonna wrap this bonus content up right now. And then in part two, there will be more bonus content. So the, the search continues and this is why we need all hands on deck. Everybody searching. It was Whitney’s reader that sent her the Levi Richards sermon that the church historians have teams of on staff, full time historians. We’re like busy moms doing this on our own. So everyone join in, right? Like every resource and never hesitate to reach out to either of us. And you know, just let’s keep sharing this content because part of what Whitney said that I loved when we talked about this is how we could just show people how this is like an ongoing search. We’re just constantly being detectives seeing what we can find. It’s not like we know everything and are presenting to you. We’re just looking and the more people looking the better. Like we kind of thought it’ll be fun to record after in between laundry and running kids and making dinner, et cetera to let people know how crazy this is. Ok. Thanks again. Have a great week and we’ll see you next week.