Sergeant James Spencer Cannon, Media Relations Officer for the Utah County Sheriff’s Office and personal friend, joins me for this very important conversation on some challenging topics.
Utah County Attorney David Leavitt has been talking about ritualistic sex abuse suspect for years
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Transcript:
[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 problems revisiting Mormon Polygamy. We are about to start on a three part series that requires a bit of a special introduction. I first want to always say the usual things for those who are new here, please consider going back and listening to these episodes from the beginning to understand the scriptural case that we make about polygamy and then the historical case we’ve been making more recently. And I also, as always have to thank those who have donated to this podcast. I cannot tell you how helpful it is and how much it means to me and I still could use more support. So if anyone feels inclined, please feel free to contribute to this podcast as well. And now on to the description of this episode. So I have to say I’m deep into the research on the novel Expositor. That’s what I’ve been working on getting ready for the fourth part on that series. And I just hit a wall. I just was blocked, complete stupor of thought every time I went to sit down to my computer. So, um finally, one day when I, you know, I, I feel the urgency and the burden of this and that I have to get it done. So I went on my run and um about four different people had sent me this video on, well, I’m just gonna throw the topic out there on what’s called sr a satanic ritual abuse is what the topic of the video was talking about, specifically in Utah. And so I thought, well, if this many people have sent it to me, I better listen to it. So as I went on my run, I listened to it and as I was listening to it, horrified, um trying to decide whether or not I should believe it. But the more I listened, the more it seemed like I needed to believe it because the evidence seemed somewhat solid enough to at least be taken seriously in anyway, a series of scriptures started going through my mind and I just paused and asked Lord, is this what you want me to do right now? I, I’ve, I’ve kind of found that if I have a stupor of thought like that, there’s usually a different direction I need to go or there’s some reason for it rather than just pushing through it, that doesn’t seem to usually be the solution. So I felt very strongly that I needed to go this direction, which I didn’t fully understand other than um other than one of my basic working principles is if there were fewer enablers, there would be less abuse. So if me using my voice kind of help minimize this problem in any way, then I was willing. But um I, I did some work, I was able to immediately contact the people that I needed to, to set up interviews. And as I got into this deeper and deeper, I realized that this actually isn’t a completely separate um issue. There are relations and connections that I had not even known to think about or consider. And so I think that these are things that we need to be aware of. I think that we need to consider what information there is before we just make a knee jerk reaction about them. So, um that is what we’re going to go into. I’m hoping that I’ve already released my um Temple episode, those of you who have been asking for it. Thank you for being patient. I’m sorry that I thought I had to finish up those other topics before I pivoted to the temple. I have heard you and I have been working feverishly to get ready for the episode on the Temple. I’m hoping I’m I’m according this Wednesday night, I’m hoping to release the Temple episode on Sunday. If at all possible, if not, you’re getting this episode instead, but I will do the Temple episode next week, then come back to the rest of the episodes in this series. So one way or the other, it’s going to come quickly. But um I, I have to just give a little bit of explanation. So this interview that I’m releasing today is actually not the first interview I recorded on this topic. It’s the second one, but I thought it would be a better one to release first to kind of set the stage to help people understand what we’re going to talk about. It’s also a much more gentle episode. I don’t think I need any trigger warnings or anything to worry about. In this episode. I had the opportunity to speak with Spencer Cannon who, um, works at the Utah County Sheriff’s Department. He is the media relations, um, sergeant there, a great, great guy. So I’m really excited to bring you this episode. And then part two, I will release my episode with Goel. Some of you may recognize his name who have been following this. Some of you may not. He, um, put together a special presentation kind of showing the connections between the investigations he’s been doing on this satanic ritual abuse and some ways that it connects with polygamy that are really troubling to me. And then in the third part, I will release an interview with someone who grew up being the, being a victim of ritualistic abuse. And so I, my hope is that we can hear these things in the spirit. They are intended to be shared. I have so many thoughts going back and forth. I’ll, I’ll introduce, I’ll give, give some of the scriptures that I’ve been thinking of in the introductions of other episodes. But this episode today, I hope that you will listen to with an open heart and open mind. I thought it was actually excellent. I was able to talk to the Sheriff’s Department about things like prosecuting po um crimes that happened in polygamy and how that can be better facilitated and how is the best way to approach it as well as many other topics with one of the greatest guys I know. So anyway, I’m so glad that you are here. I hope that you enjoy this episode and are able to learn from it as I speak with my good friend, Spencer Cannon. Welcome to 100 and 32 problems. I am so happy to be here with my good friend. One of the best guys I know this is Spencer Cannon and he actually is the public information officer for the Utah County Sheriff’s Office where he’s a sergeant. He’s been with the, the Sheriff’s Department for 33 years and he’s been serving in the, in the role of the public information officer for 20 years. So he um has a lot of experience talking to the press, talking about these kinds of issues, sharing um his insights and wisdom, things, but more importantly to me, Spencer and I share grand babies. Spencer’s awesome daughter. I get to claim as my daughter in law and she is a gem. And the cannons are gems and so, so it’s really fun to do this, semiofficial, semi personal discussion and Spencer. I want to thank you so much for coming and talking to me.
[06:41] Sgt. Cannon: Well, I’m glad to be here with you and I hope that uh I have something to offer and uh you know, uh having, having a connection with the stone family is, is one of the best things in our life.
[06:52] Michelle: So, oh, see, this is what he’s the best. Ok. So, um, so Spencer, did I miss anything in your introduction? I know that, I mean, I know quite a bit about your family. You have five kids, I believe we got your youngest,
[07:06] Sgt. Cannon: five Children and 10 grandchildren. And, uh, we love every one of them and the, and the, and the ones that have married into the family too.
[07:15] Michelle: Excellent. Well, my gosh, we feel so lucky that we feel so blessed that my son gets you guys for in-laws. We could not have done better. So, so
[07:25] Sgt. Cannon: very much the same.
[07:27] Michelle: Thank you. And, um, and so you, I believe you served in the army. I know you’ve, you’ve just had a life in sort of peacekeeping, I guess we could say. Right. So, a lot of experience with all of these issues we’re going to discuss.
[07:44] Sgt. Cannon: Yeah, I spent four years on active duty and four years in the National Guard and, well, actually a year in the Reserve and three in the National Guard and, uh, lived up there not far from where you guys are in American Fork for 28 years and, and moved a few years ago up into Spanish for Canyon. But, uh, just loving it.
[08:02] Michelle: That’s great. Ok. Well, so the reason I wanted to have Spencer come on is because I’m going to start delving, I just have felt like I’m supposed to start going into some issues that are a little bit of a stretch for me. Things that I needed to get caught up on a little bit specifically. Um, well, I guess we should just say it some, some of the horrible abuse cases that have been in the press and in the news and in Spencer’s Department with Mike Smith, the Sheriff’s Department. So specifically things with David Levitt, the Hamlin affidavit. So, what we’re talking about is what’s known as Sr A or Satanic ritual abuse. And I just did an interview last night with a guy who goes by the pseudonym Goel. I’ll be releasing that one as well who has been investigating this intensely for the last 14 years trying to get the information to help the Sheriff’s Department be able to prosecute it. Um, I, I, from what I understand, it’s hard to prosecute this stuff. You guys are limited on time, on means on money on personnel and it’s hard to chase everything down in these difficult cases. Is that correct?
[09:13] Sgt. Cannon: Yeah, there is some, there’s some reality to that some things that are challenging and, and there’s a couple of different areas and you mentioned satanic ritual abuse and, and we recognize that that does go on, um, not all of it is necessarily satanic in nature. Uh, some of it does have a religious, uh, aspect to it. Uh, and that may be sa Satanic or it may be, you know, uh Christian in some way, uh through some sort of formal religious structure. Uh But when in the ones that we deal with that are like this, uh one of the big problems is that typically the cases are so old and we’re not talking just a few years, we’re talking decades, decades old. And it used to be that Utah’s law had a statute of limitations where you either had to initiate a prosecution within four years of the time it was reported or eight years from the time that the uh abuse occurred that changed a number of years ago. So there is no statute of limitation on those things now and there. So if somebody was abused many years ago, then those cases uh can still be prosecuted. But the, the probably one of the biggest problem, well, a number of problems that we encounter when investigating those uh not the least of which is memories, you know, how well and how accurately does somebody remember something. Um the likelihood for example of getting physical evidence. Um if somebody calls and reports abuse that they say happened yesterday and it was, it was horribly painful and created injuries and things. Then there will be physical evidence to support the allegation, not likely that we’re going to have that in a case that may be 20 or 30 or more years old. Um And so you’re relying on the disclosure from a victim. You also may be relying on disclosure that the victim made to uh other people, maybe a parent, maybe a teacher, maybe a uh uh therapist or maybe even to law enforcement um that for whatever reason wasn’t followed up on or wasn’t investigated at adequately. And uh so then we are now in a position where we need to go back and, and try to confirm uh with others in some way. Uh besides, and not that we can’t move forward on a case with only a, an allegation or a disclosure from a victim. But it makes a case stronger if we have information that we can corroborate that comes from either other victims or, or people that somebody disclosed to when they were, say a child, either a teenager or, or a young single digits aged person. And so it could be complicated that way. But, but memory is a real problem as well and, and how somebody remembers things that doesn’t mean that it can’t be prosecuted or investigated and prosecuted, but it does make it more challenging.
[12:13] Michelle: Ok. Ok. That all make sense. So if you have the physical evidence, obviously, that’s the strongest case and your job. You don’t, you don’t prosecute the crimes, your job is to get the evidence together so that the prosecutors can choose to prosecute it and can do so successfully.
[12:28] Sgt. Cannon: Yeah, that is, that’s correct. We, we do, we do interviews. We, we take uh disclosures from victims, we talk to witnesses that they uh tell us about. Uh we, we try to get as much information to confirm what they uh tell us happened to them. And then we put that all together hopefully in a, in a coherent and, and clear uh manner so that when we submit a case to the prosecutors, they can then follow through and, and file criminal charges with courts?
[12:58] Michelle: Ok. Ok. I have so many questions. So, um, ok, a couple of different directions I want to go. So I brought up the big um ritual abuse topic which you weren’t in your position in the eighties when these things started being reported and it became the satanic panic. So to me that has kind of, you know, poisoned the, well, so that when people hear, oh, ritual abuse all of a sudden we just think crazy town. So can you kind of speak to like, um, well, I mean, I’m kind of serious, like, do these things happen? Should people believe that these things happen? Did they happen in the eighties? And that was a way to cover it up. I, I’m sure that there are also sort of unstable people making, you know, fallacious reports. So, I’m sure it all gets messy. But how should we think about this?
[13:55] Sgt. Cannon: Yeah. It’s, it’s difficult to, to look at and I understand why people may have the inclination to. Oh, that doesn’t happen. There was a, a national news organization after we had some information that we put out a year and a half or so ago that wrote a, a very long article basically saying that, uh, we were among those being caught up in the satanic panic. What I find interesting is that if we take a report, a disclosure from, say a, a six year old child who discloses just horrible, uh, unthinkable sexual abuse. Um, and they may be maybe they own a small business or maybe they’re a school teacher or maybe they’re a sports coach of some kind or maybe they’re just a next door neighbor, uh, or something like that. Maybe they’re a religious leader of some kind. Um, it’s horrible. It’s reprehensible. And when we think about it, it just makes us sick to our stomachs, but we don’t have a hard time believing what this child is telling us. And especially if it’s supported with, uh, you know, forensic evidence, uh, physical evidence that, uh, they tell us this and we find evidence on the child, uh, to support what they said. But the second we throw ritualistic in front of that. Suddenly it’s not believable. It couldn’t happen. It can’t be real. Well, it, it can be real. Uh And it is real and it does happen. It may not be as common as I hate to even say run of the mill sexual abuse. There’s nothing about it. It, it’s, it’s horribly violating to those, to those victims. Um But it can happen in a way that is even more secretive, that may involve multiple parties that may involve uh rituals that uh are either specifically religious in nature or just uh rituals that are uh consistent in the way the abuse is carried out in the way that the threats are made. Uh and those kinds of things that make it seem like it’s less real. And so when we have horrible abuse, which I can tell you horrible abuse happens and when we release information about somebody, we’ve arrested uh and abuse that they perpetrated. People don’t have a hard time believing it. They don’t want to believe it’s true, but they know it is. Yet when we throw the word ritualistic in, there are suddenly, you know, we’re getting caught up in the hype and that’s, it’s not real. I’m here to tell you that it is real and it does happen and while we might, might not investigate those kinds of cases as often they are real and they do happen.
[16:44] Michelle: OK. OK. I really appreciate that. I think that’s such a good wake. Up call for all of us to hear. I think that’s important. Um, when you say you don’t investigate them as often, does that mean they don’t come in front of you as often that you don’t see them as often or that you choose to investigate them less often.
[17:00] Sgt. Cannon: You know, and I don’t, I don’t know, the, the statistical numbers on that. Uh, I know that we don’t see as many of them that are characterized that way, whether that means that they don’t happen as often or they just don’t get reported as often. I, I don’t know, it may be a little bit of both but, uh, uh sexual abuse is something that is, has for, for decades and I think it’s changing for the better now, uh, that a child will come and they’ll report something or there will be signs that should be fairly easy for a, an adult or a trusted loved one or a teacher, uh, or, or a trusted adult, you know, to see, but you don’t want to believe it’s true or it gets reported and maybe it’s a neighbor that everybody likes and you don’t want them to get in trouble and say, well, we’ll just handle this ourselves and, and that is absolutely the wrong approach to take. Uh I think we’re getting better at that in, in this generation socially that we’re in, but it’s still a problem. I mean, there are still, there is still the reality that many people don’t want to talk about. It. Don’t want to get the problem addressed. Don’t want to get somebody arrested because they don’t want someone’s life to fall apart. But my response is, what about the life of that victim who has been a used? Are we gonna let somebody else’s life carry on? Uh pretending to be normal while their life might be falling apart and their future may be mapped out for them already because of the challenges they’re going to face emotionally because of the physical and sexual abuse that they may have uh been a part of or been a victim of.
[18:45] Michelle: Ok. I’m so glad you said that that is just like so music to my ears. I have um I have a sister actually who had that experience who was abused by an older man who served in high callings and when it’s so hard for these victims to grow to the point of getting over the shame, realizing it wasn’t their fault and then going and finally reporting and she reported to three separate bishops who each said, oh God can help you forgive. That was a long time ago. We don’t want to ruin this good man’s life, think of his wife. And that it’s so, I mean that was a couple of decades ago that that happened, but it’s so destructive for a victim to finally come forward and either not be, be believed because it’s ritualistic or whatever it is or not be prioritized. Yeah. I feel like it revictimizes
[19:36] Sgt. Cannon: people. Oh, it really does. It really does. I mean, imagine this, uh, and, and imagine we, we may get to this, uh, but I’ll, I’ll bring it up now. Uh, on May 31st, last year we, uh, put out a press release regarding ritualistic child sexual abuse and that’s exactly how it was described and the reason we did it and there was no matter of timing, it was just that it was getting to the point where we realized that this was a, a broader problem than what the original case that we started investigating in April of 2021. Uh We would have thought it was and it took, take, takes all these little side roads uh which is normal in any criminal investigation. But it got to the point where we thought we need, we realized there were probably other victims out there and we wanted to give them an opportunity uh to feel safe in coming forward. So we did that press release and we said, if there is anybody who has experienced this kind of abuse and would like to uh talk to us, we will listen to you, we will believe you and we will conduct investigations. And as a result of that, we had over 100 and 50 people call in a few of them were somebody reporting it uh second party, you know that somebody else had been abused um or uh a therapist, for example, calling in and saying, you know, I, I can help with this if you need help. But the majority of those 150 plus calls uh were people who were themselves victims. Um And so we did, we took every one of them, we found out the best that we could, what happened and where it happened. And many of those, when we put out that press release, we were focusing on an area uh involving Provo in the southern part of Utah County, Sanpete County and Jeb County. And uh what we found is that of these 150 people while a few of those were in that area that I described, uh there were many who were outside of that area here in Utah and even many that were outside the state of Utah. So we made referrals to uh agencies that had jurisdiction over those cases. And, you know, some of these people had never reported it before or never told anybody about it, either law enforcement or a loved one or a family member or anything. And some of them had told a loved one or a, a family member or a teacher in some cases. Um and it just hadn’t been taken seriously and it was never reported. So they, they lived with that, they repressed that and put it down and they did what they could to get through life. Uh knowing what they had experienced, but also knowing that those, that they were supposed to be able to trust, couldn’t or didn’t know how, either they didn’t know how or they were afraid to say anything or they didn’t want anybody to get in trouble. And so we said we will listen to you, we will talk to you, we will take anything you tell us seriously. And we couldn’t promise that every one of those cases will work through to a prosecution because with the issue of time and everything that is problematic in some ways, and there would be some of those cases where you’re not going to be able to get the evidence so that it’s strong enough to be able to submit a case for prosecution. Um, and that’s sad for them, but at least they came to us knowing that we, we were going to take them seriously and we were going to believe them. Now that doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re going to, well, it doesn’t mean that if we’re going to ignore, uh, information that tells us that what they’re saying is not true. And I don’t know if that happened in any of these cases, I wasn’t directly part of the investigations but, but that sometimes does happen. But at the, at the start of their disclosure to us, we are taking them seriously. We are believing what they tell us and we are following through in the way, the best way we can either by investigating it ourselves with the task force that we had set up or referring it to the proper jurisdictional agency.
[23:33] Michelle: Ok. That is wonderful to hear. I’m so glad and I think that’s probably so helpful to people. I, I guess I’m always just wanting to say that if you, if any victims are listening, you know, Spencer is a great guy, like, reach out to this department. You couldn’t be in better hands. And, um and, and, and along those lines, I’m gonna ask a question that I hope is OK. I don’t want to make you uncomfortable. But um there are some challenges sometimes, like I mentioned about my sister’s experience and so the church, um I think that we still struggle on this issue a little bit and haven’t always managed it the best. We don’t seem to be the best um at prioritizing victims, knowing how to respond, providing training and, you know, prioritizing victims. And so I don’t know if you want to kind of say anything about that. I know that we now have the sex abuse hotline. And um anyway, if, if you can share anything along those lines
[24:32] Sgt. Cannon: um from, I’m L Ds for those of your listeners who don’t know, I, I am L DS, I’m also a cop, but I uh I believe strongly in both sides of that. Um And I believe that from my perspective, personally, my goal in both of those is the same. And that is to bring justice for, for victims and even to get help for perpetrators because they, they still need an opportunity to change the way they think the way they act and everything. But our primary focus is helping victims. So what happens sometimes there’s no doubt that there has been blatant cover up by uh various religious organizations over the years and I won’t name any, I will mention one. But I, I resolved the problem. I, I had a case of uh uh when I was working as a detective many years ago, I had a case of child sexual abuse that happened between two neighbors. Uh they were young teenagers, one was a teenager, one was single digit age. Uh the victim was and uh but the abuse occurred outside of uh the city boundary where they lived. Uh So it became our case and, and the, the leader of that L DS congregation he made uh the, gave the guidance to the parents of both people involved, the young perpetrator and the young younger victim that they, they shouldn’t talk to police. And that is II I know that that’s not the counsel and the guidance from the church. And I know legally that’s not the case. Now, the only situation where a clergyman or clergy person in Utah uh does not have to disclose as if a, if a perpetrator comes them and confesses and they will not at the encouragement of that clergy go to the police. Then the clergy by most religious guidance should not uh report, at least in Utah and Utah clergy are not required to be mandatory reporters. Um So anyway, in this particular case, uh I called that uh L DS Bishop and I told him that uh you can give what counsel you want to, the perpetrator here because I can’t tell you what to do with his parents. I would like to talk to him as well. But as for the victim, if you don’t, if, if I don’t hear from them within two hours about scheduling an appointment to come and have their child interviewed by me, then I will come to your house and arrest you. So I threat threatened to arrest an L DS bishop and within about 45 minutes or an hour, I got a call from both families. Um And I, I was mad uh that he was doing this because I thought it was not treating the victim. Well, um I thought that victim needed justice. I thought uh by covering up and in some, what I thought was a misguided effort to protect the child. Uh and look out for that child’s welfare. I thought that, I mean, legally the bishop was wrong. He was required uh by church uh handbook guideline guidance and by Utah state statute to uh contact police because uh he got it from a third party. So he was not protected by the confessional. He did not get it from the, the, the perpetrator, the teenage perpetrator. So he was obligated by law. And uh so he did, he ended up doing the right thing. But uh sometimes I think, uh many of us have that feeling. We don’t want to mess up somebody’s life. But what we don’t think about is while their life might be messed up right now. One, it’s of their own doing. And two, if we don’t mess up their life now, which it isn’t messing up their life, then what’s gonna happen to them? 10 or 15 or 20 years down the road if we get to their life and we have an intervention and maybe they have a chance to stop the behavior and never do it again. But if we don’t, maybe they will continue and other people, uh other victims will suffer because of our own inaction.
[28:51] Michelle: Ok. Ok. So wishful thinking and just wanting it to go away is not the answer. Yeah. OK.
[28:57] Sgt. Cannon: I’m the leader of our branch up in uh where, where we live up Spanish, Fork Canyon. And uh I, uh I, I told the, uh as I was having the discussion as the call was being extended. I said, I, I know what the handbook says about calling the Abuse helpline. And I said, I’ll be glad to call the Abuse helpline, but it will be after I call the police and report it. I think they have the order mixed up. I think that uh the very first thing that helps the child the most is to get help on the way immediately. And I’m not talking just about the police because we aren’t the ones that can provide the treatment and the therapy and the services that they need. We can help facilitate those. But our job is to gather evidence and in cases like this, we gather evidence by way of interviews, we have specialists who do physical exams. Uh We don’t do those ourselves. Um We sometimes aren’t even the ones that do the interviews. Sometimes we have child protective services, uh officials who, who do those interviews. The primary thing that we need to do is get those services rolling. Um and, and then I’ll call and I’ll get advice from the, from the helpline and I know what the advice is going to be. Uh but uh it’s uh it’s not going to be in the order that they want it to be.
[30:23] Michelle: Ok. So what’s the advice gonna be?
[30:26] Sgt. Cannon: The advice? The advice is gonna be that uh you know, to do, do what you’re legally obligated to now in, in Utah, not all states, not all states allow for the confidentiality of the confessional. Um So if, if a perpetrator comes to a religious leader of any church in some states, then uh they, and they confess something, then by law, those clergy members are required to report it in Utah and some other states that is not the case. Utah allows that if somebody comes to a religious leader, whether it’s a bishop or a priest or a pastor or whomever and confesses something. And in this case, we’re talking about child sexual abuse if they come and they confess that, but they, that religious leader has not heard it from any other source. And despite their encouraging, that person is unwilling to turn themselves in to the police or turn themselves over to law enforcement, then the clergy member is bound by the confessional and, and cannot disclose. Um And that’s usually by the guidance of the, the policies of the religious organization. Um I don’t know if there are religious organizations in Utah that ignore that and say, I don’t care what state law allows. You will, if you’re going to be clergy for our organization, you will report it. The L DS church is not one of those. Uh The L DS church does go by the confessional. If somebody comes and confesses, then uh they are, they are not required by church policy to report it despite what the law says.
[32:05] Michelle: So, ok, I, I wanna, I wanna pause on that for a minute if that’s ok. So to clarify, it’s not only that they’re not required to, it’s that they’re legally not allowed to.
[32:15] Sgt. Cannon: I don’t think there’s a, I don’t think there’s a legal uh pro prohibition from doing it if it’s church policy. Um But so the church
[32:25] Michelle: could encourage its leaders to still report to police.
[32:30] Sgt. Cannon: No, they don’t. They, they
[32:33] Michelle: could, they could do that without a
[32:36] Sgt. Cannon: church can whatever they want administratively, that has nothing to do with doctrine. That has everything to do with the administrative side of how any church is, is operated. And I, and I, I assume that they could choose to have their policy be that uh despite what state law allows, we do want you to report it. It’s like, it’s like if, if uh if a perpetrator goes for counseling to a therapist, a mental health therapist is a mandatory reporter in the state of Utah, a doctor is a mandatory reporter. School teachers are mandatory reporters. So if a, if a perpetrator wants to bear their soul to a therapist and get some help thinking that they are going to be uh protected by disclosing the abuse, they have perpetrated to a mental health uh provider, then they’re wrong because a mental health services provider is required to report that. And I think a lot of them uh they give that disclaimer before they start that. Uh you know, certain things if you disclose, I’m a mandatory reporter, blah, blah, blah. Uh So the clergy don’t they in Utah are not among those who are considered mandatory reporters.
[33:51] Michelle: Are you allowed as both a leader of your congregation? So a member of the clergy and as a sheriff? Are you allowed to share your opinion on that? Because I have some, I mean, I think on the one hand, I can see like maybe the hope is that people will be willing to talk to someone, but I am so troubled by that because I feel like they’re, they’re needing to unburden their soul so they’re getting the benefit. But without any of the due steps to true repentance, without any help for the victims, without any, like, it just seems like I would lose, lose to me. I can’t see a good side of that.
[34:35] Sgt. Cannon: I, I think I’m inclined to agree with that. I, uh, I, I don’t see any value in allowing, uh, somebody to not disclose something so horrible that has happened to a person. There’s an interesting, uh, thing when I, many years ago when I first started in law enforcement, I, I was working in the jail, I was a corrections deputy, uh, working in the Utah County jail when I was in the corrections academy. They had, they brought over some, uh, prisoners who were, uh, who were sex offenders and, uh, we got to ask them some questions and things like that. Um, and they had a licensed clinical social worker who talked to us after they, they left and one of the things that in order for them to, to heal and, and everything and get them to disclose what they’ve done because so many of them they get caught for what they’re in prison for, but very often not with all of them, but with many of them, they have perpetrated other things that they never got caught for. So they encourage them to disclose those things and as a, as an inducement for them to be willing to disclose they, they make a commitment that they will not prosecute them. I, I did not like that idea. Uh I think, you know, if they, if they have done it, you know, because for me, you do the right thing because it’s right not for fear of the consequences of doing wrong. And, uh if you really want to clean your soul and you’re in prison, you should still step up and say, you know what, I’m here for 5 to 15 years or, or whatever, five to life or whatever your sentence is, you should, the right thing to do would be to step forward and own up to everything you’ve done. Um, but they didn’t see it that way. I didn’t, I didn’t like that idea. So I, I think that, um, I think that there shouldn’t be any people exempted from, uh, exempted from having to report when the only source you have for the, um, of the knowledge of the abuse is from the perpetrator themselves. And I think that shouldn’t, shouldn’t be allowed. That’s just my opinion. There was a, there was a bill in the Utah legislature, I think last year that was discussing doing that. I don’t think it, it didn’t get any traction but it was, it was there if I remember right, because I remember hearing about it on the news and it, I don’t know if it ever even got into committee or out of committee or however that all works. I’m not a politician but, uh, I know that there was a bill but it just never went anywhere.
[37:16] Michelle: Ok. So there were so people do see it this way too. I mean, I mean, yeah, it’s hard for me to see how I know that if you want to, actually, if we use the word, like, repent, you know, cleanse your soul, like, really overcome the horrors of your past, you can’t minimize, you can’t only admit the tiny bit you need to because you got caught on it. Right. And it seems like it is reality. Yeah. Yeah. And it seems like saying, hey, you won’t have any consequences if you clean your soul. It’s like, well, that’s not really, that’s just going. Oh, good. Ok. I can clean my soul and I mean, it’s not going to work. That’s not real. It’s not, well, it is,
[37:54] Sgt. Cannon: I agree. It’s a tough thing. But, um, in reality too, legally speaking and I’m not on a attorney, but this has just been my experience in what I see if we have a case where we have say 30 counts of any crime. But since we’re talking about child sexual abuse. We’ll talk about that if we have a, if we have a suspect or a defendant who, uh, we have investigated and we believe we have enough evidence to support so many a case for prosecution that includes 30 violations. Reality is when that case gets filed in court, it’s probably not going to be 30 case, 30 charges. It’s probably gonna be 5 to 10 maybe. Um, and some of those may be reduced down and you know what, it, it gets to a point. It’s the old it does. You no good to beat a dead horse. It kind of gets to that point where you have five charges, you have 30 charges and if they’re all first degree felonies or even all second degree felonies, uh, if a judge were to sentence them and they were to run them consecutively, then if you have, uh, a, a second degree felony that is, uh, uh, five or 1 to 15 years in prison and they run those consecutive and they have five of them, they’re going to be in prison for 75 years. Um, uh, if they have, uh, first degree felonies, it’s gonna be 5, 10 or 15 years to life in prison. Uh, and if they have two of those, and the judge runs those consecutively, they may be in prison for as much as 30 years before they’re even eligible for parole. Um, so what good is it? Gonna do to throw another 25 charges on top of that. So that’s, that’s the reality of what I usually see in any kind of case, whether it’s burglary or theft or child sex abuse. Um, where there are tens or dozens of potential charges. We cut it down to those that we can prove much more easily and make it easier to understand if it goes in front of a jury as well.
[39:56] Michelle: Ok. Ok. So, um, so I have a couple of other questions, but I want to pivot to talk a little bit about the Hamlin case, the David Levitt case if that’s all right, because that’s what really brought this out recently. It seems to me. Um, first, can I just ask you both in your capacity? Of course, no specifics, but in your capacity as a sheriff and also as a congregational leader, how big of a problem is child sex abuse in general general and ritual abuse specifically? Is this something you have dealt with much?
[40:29] Sgt. Cannon: I in, in my, my personal capacity. No, I haven’t dealt with it. Um, at all. Uh, in my professional capacity, I’ve seen it uh a lot. Uh, it, you know, I, I didn’t spend a long time as a detective, uh about a year and a half. Uh but is as a deputy and as a public information officer, I, I have either done some initial investigations on it, uh, for the short time that I was a detective. I, I did some full investigations on it now, I just do press releases and talk to media about them when they happen. Um But they uh yeah, they’re, they’re real uh the ritualistic side of things we don’t see as much of. Um and ritualistic is not a criminal charge. Ritualistic is just a description of the circumstances. There’s no, there’s no state code that says this is forcible sexual abuse and this is forcible, ritualistic, forcible sexual abuse. It’s forcible sexual abuse and it’s the nature of the circumstances that describes how the abuse happened more than it does. The statutory elements that were met in uh the perpetration of that abuse.
[41:43] Michelle: OK. That makes sense. Just a description. I’m from what I’ve seen so far and I have not been following this very closely. Um Your daughter kept me updated on it a bit. She likes to follow it. But it um it seems to me that um ritual when you put that ritualistic word, it sometimes is much more extreme and much more severe. I, I mean, I haven’t seen the uh you know, I, I luckily I’m not in a job where I have to read this stuff regularly. But um but it seems to me like somehow sometimes when it is ritualistic, it’s more horrific because there’s this additional element of evil.
[42:25] Sgt. Cannon: It can be. Um I think, I think uh probably more often than, than anything rather than the abuse itself being physically, more, more harmful is the nature of the circumstances where the trust is broken in an even more tragic way. So, for example, I, I even hate to talk about degrees of sin, but there are degrees of sin, there are degrees of, of badness in how something happens. If you’ve got a neighbor, a teenage neighbor kid, you know, he knows it’s wrong. Uh He does it anyway and it can be, it can be awful, it can be physically damaging. Um But when it’s done in a, in a broader context and maybe over time, more more often or the things that are done to establish a sense of control and domination uh that might make it ritualistic, uh make it more tragic, the act
[43:29] Michelle: itself. And the number of people involved
[43:32] Sgt. Cannon: could be, I mean, ritualistic doesn’t have to be a group, it could be one person, but it could also be a group. But when you get more people involved and especially if it goes on over time, uh then the tragedy deepens the tragic nature of what’s happening to those victims deepens even more. Um because very often it will be happening at the hands of those uh who should be providing the ultimate protection that that child needs any moment in their life, but especially in that moment of their life.
[44:08] Michelle: Ok. And so my understanding is that there’s almost a goal um to create disassociation, is that something you’ve seen and maybe I, maybe you’re the wrong person to ask about this. But then it’s like it has some kind of a uh almost psychological motivation to make the, make the Children sort of break a psychic, create a psychic break, which then can lead to them not remembering. Is that an accurate? Well, you know, the memories come up
[44:41] Sgt. Cannon: later to, to some extent that that happens in anything when somebody perpetrates this kind of a crime. Uh people who do bad things, they don’t want to get caught. And so they, they may say something directly or something in an implied way, uh to make sure that their victims don’t tell anybody or they may, yeah, they may get them, you know, we threaten them or they may uh tell them in a way that what’s happening is normal and it’s ok and it’s part of growing up. So, and if you get a child young enough, they may legitimately believe that that this really is normal. They, they feel and they recognize that this isn’t fun for them, but this is what growing up is. And if you start them at that age young enough, that’s what they believe. And that’s, that’s part of what is so tragic about this is that the people who should be protecting them and who they should be able to trust implicitly are the ones who are doing this and to them and uh, and trying to convince them they’re creating a, a, uh, counterfeit sense of normal life for these Children as they’re younger that it takes them years and maybe even decades to overcome it and even to come to realize that wait a minute, that wasn’t right. And, uh, but even when you recognize that something wasn’t right, you still have to overcome the patterns of thinking, uh, about it so that you can re-establish normal patterns because the normal patterns that you and I, and most people are taught when they’re young, they get ingrained in us. And if you haven’t had those, if what you’ve been taught has been abnormal, then it takes a while to, to break those patterns and establish new ways of, of uh realizing and protecting yourself and, and what’s good and what’s right and what’s not.
[46:43] Michelle: Ok. Ok. So somebody, because that was part of the, that’s part of the way to throw out victims, especially the satanic panic thing is that often people remember later, there’s, you know, they’ve maybe attempted suicide dozens of times and, you know, they’re, they’re a mess and then they start real remembering some of these things that shouldn’t necessarily be a reason to not believe them to invalidate.
[47:10] Sgt. Cannon: I mean, one of the reasons there, there’s two reasons I think why we, why we say you tell us and we’ll believe you is we start believing, we start by believing. Um, if something comes up during the course of an investigation, it tells us either one, they have embellished this a little bit, even if they’ve embellished, it doesn’t mean that the original act didn’t happen, the original abuse didn’t happen, but maybe they embellished in a way that made it safer for them to live with it. Um, and, and so we, we work our way through those things but we start by believing them. Um, and if, uh, something turns out not to be as accurate, either by intention or by, by disillusionment or by accident, then, uh, then we work our way through those things. Um, and we hope that we can do that in a way that’s healthy for them. And when I say we, I’m talking a whole group of people. It’s not just us as cops and detectives. It’s, it’s the people we work with the child services specialists, uh, the children’s justice centers, the judges, the prosecutors, the therapists, the child protective services workers, you know, child and family services and, and things. It, it’s really done as a, as a whole team effort in, in an attempt to get these people and they may still be Children or they may be adults by now back to a sense where they can feel comfortable just being with other people and, and living in their own skin even, you know, that some of that might be a sense of shame because they may have been taught that even that this is a punishment because of their own behaviors you know, it’s their
[48:48] Michelle: fault and they, yeah. Uh huh. Some of these, that’s some of the ideas I understand it is that the even baby girls are seductresses so it’s always their fault because they, they turned the guy on, they were asking for it. So to even just be, be comfortable.
[49:05] Sgt. Cannon: It makes me, it makes me sick to even think of those things. But, you know, I’ve, I’ve seen, I’ve seen cases that we’ve had where, where perpetrators uh described a 12 year old girl as seducing a, a 30 year old man. And it just, it really makes me sick to my stomach to, to think that they could even say that and have any and mean it, you know, it’s, it’s not. Ok. Ok.
[49:37] Michelle: Ok. That’s great. So, ok, can you kind of back up and just tell me your experience with these, this, this Hamlin the Hamlin affidavits when like what is your experience with those? Give us the background?
[49:51] Sgt. Cannon: Yeah. So there was a, a case that and I can’t speak to this part of it, but uh Provo Police Department had a case that was reported to them that involved David Hamlin as a suspect about 10 or 12 years ago. I don’t know the exact year, maybe 2012 or 2011, something like that. Uh When we had a victim come to us in April of 2021 we knew nothing about this other case that Provo had had that involved David Hamlin. Um, but as
[50:24] Michelle: well, that’s not normal.
[50:27] Sgt. Cannon: It’s normal because we had a victim come to us that, that didn’t say anything about David Hamlin. Um, and, and the only reason I even mentioned David Hamlin is because he’s, he’s in jail. Well, he’s, he’s going through the court process on two cases that we, we helped process to get him, uh, be prosecuted on it. So, but what happens is this person comes to us in April of 2021 and over the next year, uh a little more than a year as we’re investigating this and this is normal as we do this, you get a case and it starts right in one spot and as you’re going along all of a sudden, you have something that branches off over here or something that branches off over here. And so you have to follow those, those directions that it takes. You. Maybe a new witness comes forward or maybe the original person tells you about somebody that they talk to and you go talk to that person and they send you off in another direction. Well, eventually during the course of that investigation, we became aware of the investigation that pro police department had with David Hamlin. Uh but we still, at that point, didn’t have anything to make a case against him. But as we move forward, it developed so that we did and we had uh we had victims who two different victims who did not know each other. Uh, no, no, they were, they were, they were in, they were, they were different people than the original victim that got us started in April of 2021. Um, and so was
[51:59] Michelle: the original victim in 2021? Was that his daughter or you?
[52:03] Sgt. Cannon: I can’t comment on that. Honestly, I, I wouldn’t be able to comment on it but I honestly don’t know who the victim is, whether it’s somebody he knows or or not, or if it wasn’t even, it wasn’t even uh David, that was the focus of our investigation in April. So uh as it, as it moved forward, then we became aware of that case. And as we became aware of that, then uh we developed enough information to be able to have two separate cases where we, we could charge David Hamlin and eventually his now ex-wife uh Rosie, um I don’t remember her last name that she’s going by now. But uh yeah, so that we did not even, I don’t know if we even knew who they were. Uh when we started our case in April of 2021 we became aware of them and then it became to the point where uh David first was a focus of our investigation and then, and then Rosie.
[53:03] Michelle: Ok. Ok. So can I ask? And I don’t know, so both of them are facing criminal prosecution. That is
[53:10] Sgt. Cannon: correct. One case against Rosie and two against David. We arrested David Hamlin in September of 2022. He was in jail till about March of this year and was released on bail and he has some conditions for his release, you know, electronic monitoring, I believe and that kind of stuff. And we, we arrested Roselle Stevenson in August of this year and uh she was in jail for about three weeks and was released on bail. So they both uh have, they’re not married anymore. Uh But they both have cases pending um in court. And one of those uh for David Hamlin is here in Utah County. The other one is down in Sanpete County and, and Rozelle’s uh case is here in Utah County.
[53:56] Michelle: Ok. Ok. So, um so I’ll ask about the prosecution of them in, in a little bit more, but I want to know. So did you as a result of doing their case? Did you read the Hamlin daughter’s victim statements or not victim statements? They affidavits whatever they brought forward.
[54:15] Sgt. Cannon: Are you talking about one that was involved with the case from 10 or 12 years ago? 100 and 15 page.
[54:23] Michelle: I, I, I’m trying to understand how David Levitt got involved.
[54:28] Sgt. Cannon: Um What I can tell you the only, the only reason I can say anything about that is because that document has been released publicly. Um There was a, uh a statement is about 100 and 15 pages long that was involved in the investigation that pro police department did. There were, uh, local media here who through a public records request, obtained that document. And, uh, we did that did come in our hands. Um, and I, it’s been made known and it’s publicly available. David Levitt’s name is in there. I can’t speak to the specifics because I haven’t read the entire thing. I’ve read parts of it but I haven’t read the whole thing. Uh, but yeah, that’s, that’s where his name kind of came into it. But, uh, uh, as far as whether there’s any investigation with him or not, I can’t say,
[55:20] Michelle: ok. And so, so my understanding is he just kind of held this bizarre press conference because he found out that his name was in that. And then now he’s in Scotland. Am I? Am I pretty much caught? He’s in a castle.
[55:35] Sgt. Cannon: That’s a real nutshell version of it. Yeah, he, uh, we, we put our press release out on May 31st of 2022. Um, looking to encourage people who may have been victimized, uh, in a ritualistic kind of way, uh, to come forward and talk to us. And we had a lot of people that did. It was the next day on June 1st of, uh, 2022 that David Levitt held a press conference around noon in the middle of the day or so. Um, and he declared that he was not a cannibal that he was, uh, not, uh, a bunch of things. It’s out there. People can Google search it if they want to watch it. It’s, uh, pretty unusual. I’ve been, I’ve been involved in public relations with the sheriff’s office for a long time. I know a lot of local media and I had some of them say, man, that’s the, that’s the most bizarre press conference I’ve ever been to. I, I would not disagree with them. I watched it and it was unusual. Uh, but in that he accused a number of people myself and, uh, Sheriff Smith included of, uh, are having political motives and I don’t have a political bone in my body. Um,
[56:41] Michelle: I get to that to
[56:43] Sgt. Cannon: those kinds of things. Yes, I am, I am active. I’ve been a delegate. I’ve, uh, I try to vote regularly and everything. But, uh, you know, my, my motivation in doing anything when it comes to police work is to protect innocent victims. And that is the only motivation we had in, uh, putting out the press release we did on May 31st. Anybody including David Levitt who said anything otherwise about why we did that is up in the night. They don’t know what they’re talking about or they can search my phones, they can search my computers and it will be the most boring couple of hours they’ve had in a long time if they need some help getting to sleep. Look, through my phone. They’re pretty boring.
[57:28] Michelle: Ok. So they, so he immediately you call, you said if there are victims, we’re ready to, you know, go ahead and call this hotline the very next day he did this press this press release, I mean, this
[57:44] Sgt. Cannon: press conference,
[57:46] Michelle: press conference, not like saying I’m not a cannibal and also it’s Spencer Smith and I mean, Spencer Cannon and Mike Smith are bad guys and they’re just coming after me
[58:00] Sgt. Cannon: for resignations and investigations into us and the sheriff’s office about who released that document. Uh, when all he would have had to do is call Provo Police Department and say, who did you give this document to? And he would have found out and, uh, it never would have done anything. The Utah County Commission got on board initially and, and initiated an investigation and I think their, their investigation lasted all of a day or two because they then found out where the document came from and that it was not from us.
[58:29] Michelle: Wow. Ok. Do you have any personal, like, do you have any speculation of why he did it? Because, I mean, it makes him guilty as sin first of all, but it also brings up like, what was he doing? I mean, it makes it, to me it gives some credibility to this whole church of Satan.
[58:47] Sgt. Cannon: Yeah. No, I, I don’t, I, you know, I, I try to avoid that. We, we deal in, in law enforcement. We try to deal with facts and elements of crimes and for me to say anything about why he chose to do that would be just speculation because I don’t know exactly why he did. Uh, but what I do know is that, uh, we did not, nobody at the sheriff’s office released anything to, uh, the media or anybody in the public. Um, and, uh, we did not have political motives. Those are two things I can say. Uh, but for me to say anything about what his motives are in doing that, it would be speculation and I try to avoid that if I
[59:27] Michelle: can. That’s great. I won’t make you speculate. But you did say, I mean, but you can say it was the weirdest thing.
[59:34] Sgt. Cannon: It was unusual. It was very unusual. I’ve, I’ve called a lot of press briefings myself for media. I’ve, uh, uh, coordinate them for other people to lead them. I’ve led them myself. I’ve attended other press briefings and I do have to admit that that was one of the more unusual ones I’ve ever seen.
[59:53] Michelle: OK. All right. So, um I have a couple of other. So, so for you, you just look at the crime which is sexual abuse, child abuse. So you don’t get into even like you said, the ritualistic necessarily and definitely, and probably not like the satanic element, the church of Satan, that’s not part of your investigation.
[1:00:12] Sgt. Cannon: No, no. In this one, I would, I, I think I could say that Satanic wasn’t a part of it but uh ritualistic was a part of it. Uh uh Just a small example of that. One of the press releases I did about uh the David Hamlin arrest. I believe it was the first arrest we made, uh included uh fact that he was told to us by a victim. That part of, part of the process of the abuse included uh religious blessings given to the victim by David Hamlin. Um If that doesn’t make something at least somewhat ritualistic in nature, I don’t know what does you know. But uh you know, so that, that kind of thing, but, you know, Satanic, I, I wouldn’t say that Satanic was a core property of, of these uh ritualistic sexual abuse cases that we’re looking at, but it can be, it can be an element of it, but we, we purposely characterize it as ritualistic child sexual abuse. Um not describing the nature or the content of those, whether, you know, we didn’t use the word satanic. Uh mainly because we uh that wasn’t part of what the allegations were, but uh ritualistic was part of what uh the circumstances included.
[1:01:32] Michelle: Ok. OK. So I want to talk about a couple of other things. So, um interestingly, so with the Hamlin daughters, um testimonies, something that comes up is polygamy. And so that’s something I’ve been kind of looking into is the strange and uncomfortable and upsetting connections between polygamy and this ritualistic abuse. I mean, first of all, I think that my understanding is, and I don’t want to, you know, say it’s everyone or do broad accusations, but polygamy groups tend to have a lot of problems with sexual abuse. And um, oh, go ahead.
[1:02:15] Sgt. Cannon: Yeah, I was gonna say, you know, our, we don’t, I don’t, and, and we at the sheriff’s office don’t have a lot of experience with, with those kinds of, of cases. I think we like most other people. What we see are, are the things that you see with Warren Jeffs. Uh, and, and polygamy in that kind of a setting clearly is problematic. You know, when you, when you have people being forced into marriage, uh, at, at very, very young ages that, that seems very pro problematic. And from what I saw in the news and again, my expertise on that is not even expertise. It’s just knowledge from what I’ve seen in, in, uh, uh, news reports and things I haven’t even read police reports on it. But, uh, those, uh, those were, uh, very unusual. Uh, the, one of the purposes is, is getting married, getting these wives and, and it seems, and that, and that just doesn’t seem, uh, right in, in its approach, uh, and how those are done. And, uh, there were some people I think that were treated very badly and it may be that when you see those kinds of cases of abuse. Maybe they are more surrounded with, uh, plural marriage kinds of settings. But I think that’s probably not a fair way to, uh, characterize many people who are involved in that. Um, while it might not be something I ever have any interest in doing. Some people are and, you know, from a law enforcement perspective, if people are involved in that and they’re treating each other well and they’re not abusing their Children. You know, I, I’m not even aware of, of us at the Utah County sheriff’s office. At least I have never been involved in a plural marriage or polygamy, bigamy investigation. Um, if they’re leaving each other alone, treating each other well and not living off of the, the public dole, you know?
[1:04:15] Michelle: So, so it’s just the other.
[1:04:17] Sgt. Cannon: I can’t, I can’t say that I advocate for making it 100% legal. But I, I can say, I mean, we’re not out there looking for people and I, and I know there are places, at least a couple of them in Utah County where, where plural marriage goes on. Uh, the only time I’ve ever, yeah. The only place I, there’s one up, well, it’s in a, in a part of the county, uh, that I’ve been to a couple of times but it was on medical calls. You know, they, they live a very private life. They were nervous about letting us in, but honestly, we were there because some, in one case was having a diabetic problem and they did the right thing by calling and all I cared about was facilitating the ambulance and the paramedics getting in there to help these, these people. I couldn’t have cared less how they were living.
[1:05:06] Michelle: Ok. Ok. I appreciate that. I think I’m, I’m trying to navigate this because I started out being very sympathetic to, um, polygamist people who had these beliefs. You know, I wanted to share the investigations I’ve done in the scripture of why I think that it was a mistake from the beginning was never of God. That’s, but I started out doing, you know, but um as I’ve studied it more, I’ve seen more and more and more the like actual malignancy of these ideas and, and so there are people who are generally peaceful and, you know, I think there are still, I think it still creates a lot of suffering that’s unnecessary. I think it is just a, an idea designed to create misery and suffering. Um So, you know, at its best. But um I’ve seen more and more things that are deeply problematic. Like for example, in these um Hamlin girl testimonies, they talk about some of the human sacrifices would be like little boys from polygamist groups because there’s no record of them and no one knows and they need to get rid of little boys or think there was a little girl that had a maybe a hair lip or some other I, I probably, there’s probably a better term I’m supposed to use nowadays but some sort of a facial deformity, you know. So, like, like, I guess I’m just, um, and I’ve talked to some women that are some people that are advocates for people trying to escape polygamy because that’s often what it is. It’s a prison of the mind as much as anything else, you know. But sometimes it’s actually a physical prison. So I guess I am kind of struggling with the whole decriminalization movement like II, I
[1:06:49] Sgt. Cannon: think it’s, there’s so many things that if you, if you look at uh some of the things in society with, you know, definitions of marriage and even definitions of, of, of who people are and, and gender and all those things. From my perspective in law enforcement. I, you know, I can’t, I can have my personal views on something, but I have to be able to separate those when I get a call of either somebody having trouble or somebody being suicidal or somebody having been a victim of a crime or somebody having been involved in a crash. I can’t go there and, and look at them and let my personal views come into how I treat them. I have to treat them with complete decency and, and respect um and, and help them through whatever situation they’re in. Um, if I ever have a circumstance where my personal views come in and I have had conversations with people when I’ve been working that the conversation is personal in nature. You know, but that’s in a situation. It doesn’t happen very often. But, uh, you know, maybe I take someone to jail and, uh, they have something in common with one of my Children that is having some troubles in a certain area. Or maybe, maybe I, uh, uh, a child or a teenager has died in an accident and I’m talking to the parents and for me to be just regimented in my law enforcement, I, I don’t believe that’s the right thing to do if I can show them some compassion and some caring in what is maybe the worst moment of their life. It’s not something that is necessarily described in, in my job description, but it is something that is the right thing to do. I’ll give you an example. Uh Sheriff Smith, he is the current elected sheriff and I’ve been a number of times in situations where he has done uh swearing in ceremonies for new deputies that are just hiring on with the sheriff’s office. He gives them a little speech and he says to them, you know, the law gives you the right to take away people’s freedom in certain circumstances. But the law never gives you the right to take. No, he says the law never ever, ever gives you the right to take away someone’s dignity. Um And so when we work with people no matter what their, their life circumstances or what their, whatever their life circumstances, we try to treat them with respect and afford them the dignity that they deserve. Now, as far as, uh you know, plural marriage goes, like I said, we have not that I’m aware of ever dealt with. I know I have never dealt with a case like that other than a couple of times, a handful of times that I’ve mentioned where uh there was a medical problem and we were there to assist medical people. Um That’s the only interactions that I’ve had with him from a law enforcement perspective. Um And I didn’t ever sense anything in either one of those settings where there was something, somebody being mistreated or anything like that. So I’m, I’m not 100% sure where I, where I stand on this, I know where I stand on it legally. Um There are laws whether people like it or not that we don’t make any effort to enforce. Um, you know, uh I’ll give you from a traffic perspective if somebody has their gas cap that’s not completely connected, that’s actually against the law. I’ve never stopped anybody and enforced that. Um And I don’t plan on it. Um, you know, uh so if, if somebody is living in a plural marriage style even, and it’s only an infraction now for basic level living in polygamy. Um There are other circumstances where it can be either a third or a second degree felony. But if somebody is living in a circumstance like that from a law enforcement perspective, I’m not even going to give it a second look. Um, if there is somebody being harmed, yeah, we’ll take a look at it and we’ll, we’ll take it as far as we need to. It may be that all we can do is, uh, um, cite them with an infraction, you know, which is, if I write somebody a speeding ticket, that’s an infraction. That’s what basic level bigamy in Utah is, is an infraction. Now, um if there is fraud involved in it or if there is abuse involved in it, uh If there is coercion involved in it, then it can be become either a third degree or a second degree felony second being more serious. Uh But if it’s anything lower than that, we have more important things to work on, you know?
[1:11:29] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. Sure. And see, ok, I appreciate this. Like, it’s such a complicated conversation because yeah, like my, my homeschool mom of a big family self loves hearing, you know, the last thing I want is more government intrusion into homes and families. Right. And then at the same time as I guess, sort of as I’ve talked to people who are so aware of the human trafficking happening and the things with like, you know, we have Samuel Bateman and the what are, what are some of the other prophets that have come up and these revelations and we have people’s kids being kidnapped and taken. Right. And, I mean, just horrible, horrible things and it seems like there’s no ability to help, um, you know, the polygamists from what I understand kind of work with each other and kind of have this underground network of even hiding people’s Children. Yeah,
[1:12:22] Sgt. Cannon: we, there, there may be some of that and those are the kinds of things that well, and you have to look too. Um, there are things that are reprehensible behavior but not illegal. And then there are things that are clearly illegal. Uh, for example, if I’m in the store and, uh, I see a five year old kid reach up for a candy bar and say mom can I have this? And the mom berates the child and tells them how stupid they are. We can’t afford that. You know, I want to smack her but she’s not breaking the law. She might be a bad parent but she’s not breaking the law. Now, if, uh, if that child grabs for that candy bar and says mom can I have that? And she slaps the kid across the face and knocks him onto the floor, she’s going in handcuffs, uh, because we can do something about that. Um, if you, if you have these other things, you know, if, if I think a lot of it, we have to be able to separate too. What is just bad parenting and choice of lifestyle that isn’t causing, I don’t know, it isn’t causing damaging harm to somebody
[1:13:24] Michelle: or at least isn’t breaking the law,
[1:13:26] Sgt. Cannon: isn’t breaking the law. That’s probably the best way to put it, uh, versus what we think is, uh, teaching bad, bad principles. You know, there, there’s plenty of examples of, uh, of people who have broken away from some of these, these groups that have been damaging, uh, to them and, you know, I’ve read a couple of books about them and, and they, they are disturbing but it goes beyond just having a different religious approach to living, which might include plural marriage. Uh, and there’s, there’s more to it than just that there is moving from state to state or even country to country and, and how the house to hide what’s going on. And, uh, yeah, it’s, uh, it’s scary when it, when it gets to those points when, when they’re making an effort to blur the lines of where a family is or where they live and what they do, you have to at least wonder, is there something else going on there? But again, we have to have evidence. I’ve had a lot, a lot of si situations in my career with other things, not with polygamy, but with other things where I knew a crime had been committed, but I didn’t have evidence to prove it and we have to have evidence to prove it. Uh, and to make an arrest, we have to have probable cause to get a conviction. You have to have beyond a reasonable doubt. And that’s a, that’s a high standard to try to meet, you know?
[1:14:48] Michelle: Sure. Sure. So, I guess that’s my question is because it seems to me and from what I have heard and understand is that it’s harder to get evidence when I guess decriminalizing polygamy where we know already that secrecy is a huge part of it. Even if it’s not being prosecuted, there’s, there’s a massive secrecy, right? And a lot of that is also hiding clear crimes, but it’s really hard to get the evidence because plural marriage itself can’t be the evidence, right? And so all of the child labor that is absolutely a part of it. The educational, um, what’s the word neglect? Right. And these are, like I said, you know, I don’t, I’m so torn on this because I like, I like parental autonomy without the government, but I also don’t want these things to happen. And so, and then what we do know of several cases of abductions. And so I guess, I guess I’m just wondering from your perspective, has decriminalizing polygamy made it harder to help people that are being abused in the system and harder to prosecute what might be actual crimes.
[1:16:00] Sgt. Cannon: Well, you know, the, I, I think the, the polygamy itself hasn’t typically been the, the problem, the underlying problem is when there’s abuse going on. Um, is when, uh, Children are being harmed, when they are being secreted away to different locations for the purpose of keeping them from telling anybody or, or keeping, you know, for law enforcement from getting to them and having a conversation with them. Um, they want to control that part of it. Uh, then that, that becomes problematic and the way that happens certainly creates an environment that makes it more difficult for law enforcement to follow up on those things. You know, I say at a basic level, uh you know, the, the infraction level, polygamy, we couldn’t care less about what we do care a great deal about is just exactly what you’re talking about. The, um, the things that happen if there is abuse going on, either child labor problems or sexual abuse or, um, or whatever it might be, um if those things are happening and, and those victims are being moved to places to hide that, you know, that is a problem and, and if we have evidence to, to prove that those things are happening, yeah, we’ll go after them just as hard as we will otherwise. But as I’m sure, you know, these kinds of networks to get into them and get any one of those people to talk to you is extremely challenging and to get hold of a victim or potential victim or even suspicion that there is a victim is really, really hard to do because they are such a tight and closed, closed network. Now, I think being a closed, uh, group like that isn’t in itself enough to, to say that we need to make this change because they are undoubted. There’s got to be some out there that are completely harmless. They’re living a normal life. They’re good to each other. Whether they have two or three, spouses or, or whatever. Uh, I’m sure there are some that are, that are living a decent life that aren’t harming those nine, who they’re supporting their families well, and, and each other emotionally and financially and, and all those things educationally, whatever. Um, but, uh, it, it’s particularly worrisome when we know that there are others out there that are not that way that are problematic where abuse does happen. And if they’re being moved around to hide that, uh, we know, I mean, with Warren Jeffs is a perfect example of that. How, how deep those dark networks can go in trying to one hide the abuse and then two hide the abusers.
[1:18:46] Michelle: Yes. Ok. So, ok, so let me, let me get my thoughts in order. But one thing, um, I guess I’ll go here first is that it’s so hard because it’s such a part of our heritage. And I’ve been studying the history and I just came across another story. I come across them all the time of a little 14 year old girl with very poor parents. She was the oldest of eight Children in Scotland. Her father was blind and they shipped on the perpetual immigration fund, I believe. And she turned 15 on her way here came, you know, without her parents. And within two months of being in Utah was married off to a 49 year old. And so it’s tough and, and it’s, you know, this is my great grandmother’s story. This is day after day after day, this is our heritage, right? And, and again, it was, it was secluded, isolated, complete control. So, so it’s really hard because there tends to be this like softening of it where sociologically it’s really been proven that there are no benefits of polygamy. Always the marriage ages of the girls get younger and younger, the boys get, you know, they, you have to get rid of the boys. Like, like there, I’m not even touching on the problems that, that there are with this, but it’s always problematic. So it’s even hard. Like, yes, there are wonderful people and there are benign families, but in general as a rule, it’s not good and there are no good fruits of it, you know. And so, um, so I think what I’m, I guess, I guess what I kind of want to get to is like the Warren Jeff’s case when they, um, when the, what was it, that was it, the Texas um police force. Um, I guess, you know, the word invaded is coming to mind, but that’s not the right word. But when they went into the yearning for Zion Ranch and, and did that and, and like, I remember me, I was, I totally fell for the show that the polygamist put on feeling like these poor people. I was much, much more sympathetic to it at that point. But now I look at it and I’m like, it is such a dang good thing that they did that. Right. I think that that’s, and we wouldn’t know that we would just think, oh, they’re benign if they, I mean, you know, it’s a good thing that Warren Jeffs had the technology to have recording devices and it’s a good thing that they did that so they could get those or we would have no idea. And so we don’t know what happened in our past and we don’t know what’s happening elsewhere because it’s just secret and no one’s done the horrible thing that the Texas, you know, like that was a horrible thing to have to do. But I think generally we’re glad that they did it. Like, we think it’s a good thing. Right. And
[1:21:15] Sgt. Cannon: so I, I completely agree. It was a, it’s a good thing that they did it. I, I don’t know. I, I would assume, well, I, I’m quite certain that before they went into the, where they had a phone call they had somebody sneak into their office or, or something, they had something that got them to the point where they could start getting search warrants and things like that. Um, well, you know, I, I love our legal system. There are some aspects of it that are really that I, that I, I wish could be different but because I am such a strong believer in it, it has to be that way and even if something’s going on, if I can’t get it the right way, it’s hard to stand back. But it’s really what we have to do to preserve the integrity of our legal system, you know.
[1:22:03] Michelle: Which is exactly right. So this is my question that it just is coming to me as we’re talking. So when we have these big criminal networks, what usually happens, at least, you know, as someone who grew up watching TV. So, you know, but we go, yeah. Yeah. Like, like we go undercover, right? Like, like you go under, you don’t wait for someone to call and turn in a drug dealer or you send or a, you know, you go undercover to, to, um, get at the crime that’s happening. And I would say we have definitely plenty of suspicion, you know, reason of evidence to point to, to crimes. So why can’t we do things like going undercover into some of like, the Kingstons? My goodness. There’s so much, I mean, like, at the very least the baby graveyards because of all the inbreeding and the, like, you know, and then we have these allegations of like polygamous Children being given to a way to, for a, for a ritual sacrifice. Like all of these kinds of things. Couldn’t we do an undercover investigation? Yeah.
[1:23:09] Sgt. Cannon: You know, in, in, on the, on the face of it you can, uh, under going undercover in any network, uh, is, can be very, very challenging and, uh, for the narcotics world, for example, uh, it’s a little bit easier to do because all you gotta do is pretend like you either buying dope or you are working your way up the chain. If you get deep enough, you can even get in with the cartel, uh you know, at the cartel level and things, uh something like this uh would be, I think a lot more challenging because they are such a closed society and it could be very difficult to, to do uh to work your way in to the extent that you can find out exactly what’s happening beyond
[1:23:52] Michelle: just female cops could do it. Female cops could do
[1:23:56] Sgt. Cannon: it anyway. So it is, it would be nice to get in. That is one of the, no doubt, one of the most challenging aspects of, of investigating these kinds of things. Um is uh you know, how do you get in to the inside? How do you gain that trust? Um And, and also you have to, you have to have something that can lead you into doing that you can’t just, uh you, you can’t just go with, with drug dealing. For example, uh if I know where to go to, to buy drugs, I can go there and I can act like I’m somebody who wants to buy some and if somebody approaches me, then, uh then I’ve done my job by just acting like I want some or I can even approach somebody and say, hey, I’ve got some drugs to sell or do you have any drugs you can sell me? Um But with something like this, uh yeah, it would be hard and maybe not even ethical to try to insert yourself into a situation where you don’t have any evidence to suggest that something is going badly that there’s abuse going on or, or whatever, it might be child labor or whatever. Um It might not even be ethical to try to do that if you don’t have some evidence to. Well, I know it would be unethical from a long enforcement perspective to try to do that where you have zero suspicion, even that something like that is going on. You know, beyond just saying, ok, if you, if you throw a broad blanket over and say polygamous families in general tend to do these things, that’s not enough really to go into this particular polygamous family and start trying to imagine. I mean, the most public thing that you think, see now is Cody Brown and the sister wives. Um imagine trying to, uh, work your way into that group undercover. You know, and I’m not suggesting that, that they are breaking laws or committing abuse. I, I have no reason to believe that I’m just, you know, for instance, if I wanted to go in there just to see how would I do that? I’m not going to take on another husband
[1:26:01] Michelle: for sure. But that’s what I’m, that’s what I’m asking like, in a way if we don’t have any suspicion, it seems like it’s because we’re not looking because we’re closing a blind eye to it because you could, you could very easily find work sites with 89, 1011, 1213, 14 year old boys. That’s something that would be seeable if we didn’t just look away, we can see the young, the young women, right? That are mothers that shouldn’t be, we can see. I mean, there are so many things and then even the, you know, like the, um, bleeding the beast, the, um, signing up for benefits. Those are things that we are turning a blind eye to time and time and time again and then even things like the women that, that have left and their Children are being taken from them and they can’t get Children. That would be a fantastic reason. So I don’t want it to be this broad brush, it seems like, ok, if there’s a woman who’s saying my Children are missing, that’s a pretty big deal and it feels to me like we kind of turn a blind eye. Yeah.
[1:27:03] Sgt. Cannon: But we have to have them come to us and tell us that in the first place. You know, and, and I think, I think a lot of it is, is getting them to the point where they have the courage. Maybe, maybe they fear that if they come and report something that they will go deeper into hiding and be that much more difficult to find. And we know that they, uh, that from some groups who have been particularly problematic, that they have a good ability to go deep into hiding or, or keep outsiders from getting in. Um, so we, we have to have some information, uh, that is happening. Uh, you know, as far as looking at, uh, say welfare records and things like that, I suppose that could happen. I don’t know if it, maybe it has and I don’t know, I honestly don’t know because I’ve never been involved in one of the investigations to know I’ve been involved in other investigations. So if I, for example, suspect that I have reason to believe, probable cause to believe that somebody is, uh, uh, abusing prescriptions, um, then I may be able to get a warrant to search their Doppel records to see their prescription history, you know, and that may then tell me something and open it up, but it also may get me in there and say, oh, well, I guess they’re really not, they, if they’re misusing prescription drugs, they’re getting it from somewhere else but not from doctors. Um, so in a case like this, if, if somebody is, is misusing public welfare resources or they’re abusing child labor laws or you’ve got underage girls, uh, having, having babies. Uh, yeah, we have to look if I see some, if I see a girl who looks like she’s 14 years old with a brand new newborn baby walking across the parking lot at Costco in Saint George. Um, that alone isn’t enough to tell me even that that baby belong. She’s the mother of that child. Um, so we have to be careful about, you know, it’s, we have to be careful. We don’t trample on people’s rights in, in doing that, their constitutional protections, um, search and seizure and all those kinds of things. So we really, we really have to be careful in some circumstances are much more difficult to get that. There may be criminal activity going on that we can’t get to because we don’t have enough information even to start an investigation, let alone get a warrant or arrest anybody.
[1:29:22] Michelle: Yeah. Ok. So that’s, I guess what I’m wondering is if it’s possible to make it a little bit higher of a priority, what would need to, what would need to happen because I do feel like there’s a lot that, um, there’s a lot of evidence there for the getting like, like the way that you put out the press report saying, hey, if anyone has been uh has any information on ritualistic abuse, is there a way to say, hey, if there are problems that someone has experienced of any of this nature, you know what I mean? Like, like, I don’t know if there’s a way to prioritize it when we know that. I mean, from, from what I’ve understood just a couple of statistics from some of the advocates, I’ve been speaking to the rates of suicide in polygamous groups are exponentially higher than just the regular population when, and, and, and that’s not illegal, but it’s kind of showing the level of
[1:30:19] Sgt. Cannon: an in some way or another, you know, I mean, yeah,
[1:30:24] Michelle: and then when we know that, that, that really like human trafficking, especially when you’re talking about taking work crews across state lines. But like those are major crimes when you’re taking girls to different locations to be married. Like, and we have every indication that these things have always been happening and are continuing to happen. And, and so what can we do to help this become a higher priority?
[1:30:49] Sgt. Cannon: I think, I think some of it depends on the area where it is uh getting the information. Um You know, maybe, and maybe there is more that could be done proactively uh educating uh officials with authority there, whether it’s family services officials or law enforcement. Um you know, somebody writing up AAA document that says, OK, this is the information that I have that makes me believe that this is going on here, whether that can do something for it or not. Uh I don’t know. Um But there, yeah, we, we certainly want to address issues where there are problems and whether or not uh having polygamy at a infraction level at the basic level of polygamy in Utah is a good idea or not. Uh, the, the problematic, the other problematic behaviors, um, are, have always been the same level. So if somebody is, is being married off at age 13, uh, you can’t do that. That’s not ok, you know, or 12 or 11 or whatever, you know. Um, that, that’s not ok, whether polygamy is an infraction or a first degree felony, uh, there are certain behaviors and acts that are never, uh, well, I hope never going to be ok, that are wrong whether polygamy is an infraction or felony, you know, you know, educating us, you know, we’ll, we’ll take education, we’re not so high on ourselves to think that we know everything there is to know if there’s something going on that, uh, is more serious than we, we understand it to be. Or maybe we’re misguided in believing that it isn’t that big of a problem. We certainly want to know about it. I mean, uh, my, my wife is a fan of the sister wives show, you know, and they’re falling apart. Their family is falling apart. I think there’s no doubt about that. And it’s, it’s sad to see, but I, I think we need to be careful to not rush to judgment and say that they’re falling apart because they’re living a plama lifestyle. The fact is regular marriages are falling apart of a rate of probably in the neighborhood of 50% or more nationwide. So, is it because of the lifestyle they live maybe? Is it because they’re just going through the normal vicissitudes of life and marriage? That might be it too? So, um if there are, if there are things out there that are bad that are going on, that could have something done about them. If we did more about it, we gotta have enough information to steer us in that direction too.
[1:33:33] Michelle: Ok. I love, I love you, Spencer. I love that you’re just so humble and saying we’re willing to learn because I have, I have, um I, well, I have so many thoughts of what you just said because as someone who has spent many years um interacting on this topic, you know, and I often engage with, well, when I initially started my Facebook group on this topic, when, when I suddenly realized that polygamy was never of God. And I had a lot of polygamous men come and join the group and, and you know, tell me their, their biggest insult for me when they realized that they couldn’t that, you know, they couldn’t convince me was, I would never want you as a wife. I don’t know anyone who would want to be married to you. Isn’t that funny? That’s like the worst insult in the polygamy world that you can give a woman is that she’s not
[1:34:19] Sgt. Cannon: three or four wives. Right.
[1:34:22] Michelle: Right. Right. It was amusing. But a lot of the things you’re saying are things they would say, like, well monogamy too, like, they have their problems too. And it’s so like, and, and like, yes, that’s true. But we haven’t done the sociological, well, they were done in Canada. Canada looked at the sociological studies of what this actually does and decided to make it completely illegal. Like, like we have done it. Polygamy is, is problematic. It is much, much worse
[1:34:48] Sgt. Cannon: than I think we need to look at it too is, um, let’s, let’s assume if, if there is something about polygamy itself that creates problems or creates abuse or whatever you want to say that would not occur. But for polygamy then clearly we would need to address that and do something about it. Now, when I say, uh, when I say creates problem it would not happen. Yeah, if a guy’s got four wives and he, and he gets in an argument with all four of them. If he didn’t have four wives, you’d only have one wife to get in an argument with, uh, that’s not what I’m talking about, I’m talking about, you know, abuse or child welfare, child labor, uh kinds of issues or welfare fraud. Uh Yes, those things happen in monogamy. But if they happen at a greater level or unique to polygamy, then yeah, we need to address those issues should be addressed.
[1:35:48] Michelle: OK. OK. So, and then, and then I have, this is my other question. I feel like there is a tendency for us maybe particularly as members of the church and in Utah to really, um, feel somewhat protective of polygamy because it’s our heritage. And we still, I, I, I’m serious, like we still have section 132. Many people still believe it’s in our future. Many still believe it’s a true doctrine. And so we’re hesitant to be willing to, um, like I said, um, the stories that are in our heritage could make us think. Oh, well, Brigham Young did it. So it can’t be that bad if they’re marrying 14 year olds, that’s just what they do. I mean, I mean, I feel like there is this tendency and that is where I think it might be useful to provide some degree of um, training or education to help people understand. Well,
[1:36:40] Sgt. Cannon: I can tell you this from a law enforcement perspective. Um, I couldn’t care less what history is in the L DS church or any religion. If there are laws that are violated that are particularly harmful to anybody, we’re gonna go after them I mean, uh, and I’m a fairly black and white kind of a guy. Uh, and, uh, the, the law is the law. Now, that being said, I, I already mentioned earlier, there are some things that we just don’t pay any attention to traffic laws or, or whatever, you know. Um, but, uh, you know, if there are, if there is something specific in polygamy that is creating harm, people are being harmed in a criminal way, uh, in some way, either society through welfare fraud or child labor laws or child sexual abuse, uh, that is couched in the form of uh, marriages, uh whatever it might be, uh, if those are problems there and if they exist and they’re happening, which we know to some extent they do. Um then we need to address those and uh if there are aspects of it that are, we need to be able to separate that from the aspects of it that are just maybe distasteful to us. But, you know, you like living that way but I don’t so have at it, you know, but if, if there are people being harmed criminally, either through sexual abuse or child labor laws or welfare fraud, that kind of thing. Yeah, we, we need to find a way to address those things if we can. But there are certain aspects, elements of the, those kinds of groups that are particularly difficult to get into and find all that and, and we know that with the, the, the Warren Jeffs thing, I, I was not part of that investigation but just from what I did see, I remember watching news reports on that and thinking that must have been a nightmare to try to get inside of that and to get that information, uh, because they were so protective of each other for so long, many of them, you know?
[1:38:47] Michelle: Right. Right. Ok. Ok. So, I guess that’s my plea is like, first of all, if there are people who have evidence or who have um evidence of crime or who have suffered in these systems, either the ritualistic abuse or some of the problems that come up because of polygamy. O obviously, you know, like I like what you’re saying, not just the lifestyle is lifestyle, but the problems within it. I hope that people will start reporting more and just like I loved everything you said about. We believe the victims, we prioritize this, you matter, you put out the press release. I’m wanting that same amount of care and attention to be available to people who have experienced abuse and polygamy to know that they can come forward and then it will be taken seriously and prioritized.
[1:39:37] Sgt. Cannon: Yeah. And, and you know, it’s interesting and, and what I, a lot of people, a lot of times people don’t know where to call, you know, and they worry, should I call it a non emergency number? Should I call 911, if you don’t know, just call 911 if, if somebody sees this and they’re in one of those situations, if their parents are living in plural marriage and it’s otherwise fine, you, you might just have to live with it. But if, if somebody is suffering abuse, uh, in one of those kinds of settings, yeah. Call, call police, call law enforcement, call 911. If you don’t know what number to call, everybody knows 911 and it’s ok to do that. Um, and, uh, let us let law enforcement look into it. You know, wherever you are, uh, if, if you’re suffering abuse at the hands of somebody, whether you’re in, in, and we’re talking specifically about plural, uh, relationships here, plural marriage relationships. But in any situation, if you’re in a city situation where you feel trapped, you feel like you don’t have any way to get any place to go. There are people out there in law enforcement and child protective services in, uh, prosecution in judges who in therapists in, in medical people, doctors and nurses who want to help people who have been abused and in this context as well, if somebody happens to see this and they have been a victim of abuse. Absolutely. You know, we, we encourage people tell a trusted adult well, in a setting like that you might not have a trusted adult. And if you don’t, uh, find a way that you can get to a phone and call 911 or, uh, whatever we, we want to help you. We want to believe people, we want to get people, resources and services that they need, uh, so that they can feel safe. They can go to bed at night without worrying who’s gonna crawl with them or, uh, anything like that, you know, that they can, they can be perfectly safe and perfectly happy in their life, uh, even in an imperfect life. But, uh, in a life with that includes abuse of any kind or child welfare or child labor violations or anything like that. Call 911. If you don’t know the number to call, just call 911,
[1:41:44] Michelle: that’s, that’s excellent. And I’ll just, I’ll just put out there because I know there’s also the fear of if people call and there and it’s not able to be proven or there’s not enough evidence and then they are just sent back home, their situation could be infinitely worse. So that’s a scary thing for some people as well. So if there’s anyone that’s feeling, go ahead. It
[1:42:03] Sgt. Cannon: is, it is worrisome and that, that does sometimes happen if somebody comes to us, uh, having experienced something, uh, and we can’t gather enough evidence either in terms of statements or, uh, physical evidence, then, yeah, sometimes we aren’t able to prove the cases that we know happened, but we just don’t have the evidence to prove it. And that is, we try not to let that happen. You know, we, we try to step in and, and with welfare checks and, and things, but uh we want people to come forward and know that they’ll be taken seriously.
[1:42:38] Michelle: That’s excellent. And so I just want to say, go ahead and email me. My email is 100 and 32 problems at gmail.com and I can, I can help. I know Spencer, I can ask him what direction to go and what would be the most helpful thing. There are, I can also lead you to people who can be a safe house for anyone who just needs to get away from whatever situation they’re in and, and I have, I was gonna let you wrap up, oh, go ahead and then I’ll ask my last question. Did you have to say
[1:43:07] Sgt. Cannon: no, I just ii I like that, you know, it’s uh it’s important to get official services involved and things like that, you know, as much as we want to take the poor child in uh and, and protect them. Uh We have to not become part of the problem too. The, you know, if, if a child comes to us and says my dad’s abusing me um or he’s mean to me or he spanks me. Uh it’s not against the law to spank a child, but whatever, if a child comes to us as I just don’t feel safe at home, we can’t just keep them in our home to protect them. We have to get law enforcement involved. Uh, because if we don’t, then we may be put ourselves at risk of, uh, of facing investigation as well. And the ultimate focus is to protect that child. And, uh, if we can prove that they’re in a dangerous situation, we’ll do everything we can to keep them out of that.
[1:44:00] Michelle: That’s perfect. I, I was trying to offer to be an intermediary for someone who doesn’t quite dare call the police, right? They can contact me and I can find out how much information they need. And, you know, like, like I think that there are lots of us who would like to be someone’s trusted adult who doesn’t feel like they have one, right? That’s, that’s, I guess what I’m saying, like we can, we, we’ll be happy to be your trusted or your trusted source.
[1:44:24] Sgt. Cannon: It may be a situation where um a child isn’t in a setting where they are suffering abuse or where they are being forced into child labor situations or something. It may be just that their parents aren’t very nice. Um And if you can provide a safe setting for them for a few hours, two or three days a week, you know, maybe that’s what we can do. Uh And obviously if it gets worse than that and those other things are happening and they, they tell us about it. We can also pick up the phone and call 911. That’s, that’s the easiest thing to do.
[1:45:00] Michelle: Ok. That’s perfect. And so now, because you said something that made me think of another question when I was gonna let you go. Um, so you had mentioned doing welfare checks and I’m, I guess I’m curious about this problem of, like, there not being any record of births. And again, my, I’m such a small government libertarian type person that, ah, but at the same time when these, like when these babies can just disappear and people can just disappear because there’s no record of them. That’s concerning. And when we have allegations that that has happened, you know, is there a way to just do welfare checks and make sure there’s at least a birth certificate for babies that are born,
[1:45:42] Sgt. Cannon: you know, the young girl, um, I can’t just walk up and say, uh, show me this child’s birth certificate. It’s hard to do. Now, if we have solid information to suggest that that might be the case, maybe there is more we can do, but we can’t just, you know, I mean, in, in Russia you can walk up to every person that demand their papers. You can’t do that here in America without cause, you know.
[1:46:14] Michelle: Yeah, thank heaven. But I guess so. So these Hamlin girls testimonies that talk about these horrific human sacrifices and they mention Indian reservations and well, Native American Children or, um, polygamous Children because there’s no record of them. That’s not enough evidence to say
[1:46:36] Sgt. Cannon: you have a, you have to have a reason to believe that there’s no record, a reason to investigate that. Uh, and I don’t know, I don’t even know honestly if it’s illegal to be born and not have a, a birth certificate. You know, the State II, I, it’s not something I’ve ever dealt with but, uh, when, when it comes, when they get to a certain age, obviously, there has to be a record of them. You’re supposed to have a social security number and all that kind of stuff. But, uh, you know, it’s a, it’s a challenging thing. Yeah.
[1:47:08] Michelle: So I guess my hope is that people can kind of put their heads together and figure out better ways not to persecute people. That’s not the goal but to protect people from this bad system that are, that are suffering in it. So that’s my hope is that we can all work together as a society and a community and you know, as the trusted adults, the responsible people to help people that are suffering in these systems. So, Spencer, thank you so much for taking this time to talk to. Is there anything else you want to say before?
[1:47:43] Sgt. Cannon: I’ve about spilled my guts on you here. Yeah. So,
[1:47:47] Michelle: yeah. Well, I sure appreciate it. So, thank you and I’ll talk to you soon.
[1:47:51] Sgt. Cannon: OK. Good to talk to you
[1:47:54] Michelle: another huge thank you to Spencer for giving me so much of his time and being willing to talk to me. That was a really fun interview to do. I hope that you found it valuable. I will, I promise in the next episodes, I will give you plenty of warning for anything that will be difficult to listen to because the next interview will be more difficult than this one was. But my hope is that all of us can become more aware of the things that are happening around us so that we can do more to help in whatever way we feel called to. I was really happy to be able to talk about some different ways that maybe law enforcement could become more aware of some of the problems. And maybe there, there’s some work that can be done there. And I’m thinking that maybe some advocacy could be done to help um educate police officers and help facilitate that work being done in more effective and better ways so that we can help more people. And so anyway, feel free to contact me. If there’s anything I can do to help you in a situation you may be in or if you have any great ideas that we can put some coalitions together. I don’t know, I’m not a great organizer, but I want to do whatever I can to help. So thank you so much and I will see you next time.
