83: Why it Matters: LDS Polygamy Trauma w/ Heather and Lisa | 132 Problems

This is one to share. So often we are told that this topic doesn’t matter and shouldn’t be discussed — Polygamy is behind us and we don’t need to talk, think or worry about it. Heather and Lisa are here to help people understand exactly why it matters, and why it must be addressed and repaired. Polygamy is still very much with us, tormenting too many women and hurting too many hearts and marriages. This was one of my all-time favorite conversations. I am sure you too will be touched by the goodness, sincerity, vulnerability and courage of these two beautiful women.

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132 Problems Episode 42: Emma and Joseph

A Plea to My Sisters, by Russell M. Nelson

Transcript:

[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 problems revisiting Mormon polygamy where we explore the scriptural and theological case for plural marriage. I know that many of you are waiting with bated breath for part two of the Nauvoo expositor and I had planned to release that this week. But a couple of things, first of all, life went crazy. In fact, I’m stealing a moment to hurry and record this before I run down to get in the car to head out of town. Things are insane. So I will not have time to get that episode recorded this week. It will be released next week, but I am so thankful to be able to release this episode. This is an interview that I had about a month ago with these two beautiful, amazing inspirational women who were so courageous to come on and share their stories. I cannot thank them enough. And I really do hope that you will consider sharing this episode, particularly with church leaders who it would help them to understand the experience that that many women have. And also with, if anyone is tempted to say, why does this topic matter, why are you still discussing it. This is a great episode to share with them the impacts the polygamy still has on thousands of people, particularly women is so important to see, to recognize, to address, to give women a place to discuss and talk about these experiences that they have. I hope that you will listen with as much sincerity as these women bring to this conversation. We share a lot of very personal um sacred experiences. I know we all felt very vulnerable recording this episode. So I do ask you to please treat it with due respect in the comments and help this to be an uplifting gratifying experience that will help many people understand why it is so important to continue to take this deep dive into the murky waters of Mormon Polygamy. Welcome to this episode. I am so excited to be here with two of my new friends, Lisa Kendall and Heather Hardy who both? Well, we’ll, we’ll talk about it going forward. But I asked them if they would be willing to come on and share with all of us their experiences with polygamy. I think a lot of times people ask, what’s the point? Why are you doing this? It was hundreds of years, it was 100 year plus years ago. Why does it matter? Right? And other people just say, just have faith, it’s a God. And there are so many answers that all when, when you hear stories like Lisa and Heather are going to share, you realize how damaging those answers are and how sort of gaslighting it is. God wouldn’t do anything mean you, you don’t need to worry about it. Just put it away little lady and don’t, don’t bother your little, pretty little head about it. Right. Those kinds of answers. How, um, truly impactful, this doctrine still is on women. So, Lisa and Heather, thank you so much for being here. I know that this is difficult and challen challenging because it’s so vulnerable and I know this is neither of your comfort zone, but I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your willingness. So first of all, um let me have you each just kind of quickly introduce yourself, Lisa, can we start with you? Tell us a little about yourself?

[03:18] Lisa: Yeah, sure. So I grew up on the west coast and I’m now on the east coast and never thought we would settle our roots down here. Um I am a mom of six, almost seven currently pregnant with baby number seven. so very excited about that. Um Yeah, so I home school my kids. Um I don’t know, I feel like I’m just kind of a typical mom. Um II, I don’t know, I don’t really have anything like I, I wanna clarify. I am not a historian, so I’ll get into that more later, but I am just a regular person that wants to follow truth and, and follow God. So

[04:05] Michelle: thank you. I don’t think you heard me ask. When are you due? When is your number seven? Do uh, November?

[04:11] Lisa: And it will be my sixth boy. And so, uh my daughter was really hoping for another sister, but that’s not on God’s plan right now.

[04:21] Michelle: Oh, my goodness. I have seven boys. I can commiserate with you. That’s exciting. Thank you. And I didn’t realize that you were homeschooled as well. So all three of us. So he an introduction of yourself as well.

[04:34] Heather: Yeah. So I’m Heather Hardy and um I have nine Children. So we’re, we’re in good company with each other. Um I grew up in Canada on the Prairies and that’s where I’m still, I met my husband here and we’re still here. So that’s great. That’s all I am.

[04:52] Michelle: That’s great. So, and you were a homeschooling mom as well, I believe, right? We’re

[04:55] Heather: all,

[04:57] Michelle: so we’re all kind of kindred spirits. I didn’t even realize that when we beforehand. So that’s fun. So um do, were you both raised in the church? Do you have a missionary story of how you learned the gospel?

[05:11] Lisa: I was raised, born and raised um In fact, I have ancestors from Joseph Smith time and all the way up until now. So it’s definitely in my blood.

[05:24] Michelle: Perfect. OK. And Heather you as well. Yeah,

[05:26] Heather: me too. I, I was born in the church as well and have ancestors from way back as well. So,

[05:33] Michelle: ok. So all of us, this is fun to have so much in common. It is fun. But, um, so I guess we’ll just jump right into it because, um, I, I first wanna ask if you can tell me when you first learned about polygamy, when you learned that that was part of our, I, I honestly can’t distinctly remember when I learned about it because it was just in, you know, in the middle of my growing up. And, and that’s another thing that I’m so thankful for me to be able to hear your stories because I had such a different experience. I was so bizarrely naive and not bothered that. It’s, it’s crazy to me now. And I love, I, I think that maybe the Lord was helping me be in that position so I could have the dramatic awakening I had so that I could do what I’m now doing, you know, but it’s so helpful to me to hear from women who were more awake earlier than I was. So, Lisa, can you tell me how you first learned about polygamy?

[06:29] Lisa: I feel like it’s always been um from the very beginning, like I remember reading um in the Bible about Jacob Leah and Rachel, you know, and, and, and hating it like from the very, very beginning, even little girl, just like it just broke my heart hearing the women’s stories and I just couldn’t wrap my mind around a loving God wanting that for his daughters. And then also, um, we were really good about reading the book of Mormon, which I’m very grateful to my mother for that. And there is a verse I think in second Nephi that talks about seven women to one man the last days. And so like, that’s always been on the back of my head is like that, that would be something that I would have to look forward to. Thankfully I know otherwise about like a different interpretation. But it, it has haunted me ever since I was a little girl.

[07:28] Michelle: Ok, those

[07:30] Lisa: two experiences.

[07:31] Michelle: So that’s fascinating. So for you, it was actually straight from the scriptures, not even so much the LDS history, just the scriptural, you know. Mhm oh That’s amazing. OK. I love how, how you were able to see that because like I said, I don’t, I don’t remember if I was, I can’t remember if I was bothered, you know, I, I don’t know. So I really appreciate that Lisa, thank you for sharing and then Heather tell me how you first learned about pulling me if you remember. Yeah,

[08:00] Heather: I was really young. Like I remember just, just being and this is how I perceived the teachings. But I remember people teaching me about well, there’s different races and that’s because we have multiple heavenly mothers. And so that was an interesting one. But I remember that and also just like the, the scripture that Lisa Lisa mentioned about seven women to one man. And I remember people like speculating about, well, in the last days, polygamy is going to be the the sifting in the church, you know, where it’s gonna come back. And at least in the second coming, it’s coming back. And so there is always this like, oh this is, this is my destiny. I like at some point I either in this life or the next, I’ll probably have to face this issue. And so, and then like Lisa said with the, with the scriptures of Jacob and Abraham, it was, it was really challenging to see that mixed in with our canon. And then of course, CNC 132 was really troubling to me always.

[09:03] Michelle: OK. And did you say your mother talked to you about it at one point that

[09:09] Heather: yeah, I’m sure. And, and I know that like, like my mom did, she, I think at certain points it also troubled her and she was just trying to teach me from a loving place. Um kind of immunize me for it, I think, and I, I really appreciated that she tried to do that. Um But I think it also traumatized, traumatized me and I think it, I think it does a lot of people when they

[09:35] Michelle: learn about it. OK. So the combination of this is because there’s a lot of stuff in the Old Testament that’s terrible, the genocides, the rapes, the, you know, just awful, awful things but this one stood out to both of you maybe because it is more incorporated into our modern canon and our modern beliefs. I, I like hearing you both say how much it was just the expectation that this is what it’s going to be because that was my experience too. And it has felt weird to me to have other people be like, no, that’s not the case. No, that was never. I, I’m like, yes, yes, very much was my experience. So I’m glad to hear both of you not even growing up in Utah. That was your experience as well in three different locations. This was the church culture that we were raised in with the expectation that polygamy is the, is the great doctrine that needs to return in the last days, right? Ok. Ok. So, so I guess it’s hard to know the best way to go. So feel free to jump in with anything. But um and I’ll just kind of keep going in the order of Lisa and Heather if that’s OK, that’s working so far. So I wanna know how that affected you kind of maybe at different points like as a girl, as a teen, as a wife or a Beyonce, you know, like, are there anything that stands out for you maybe up until the point that you got married and then we can, and then we can go on from there, you know, kind of as your, your growing up experience for the girls and young women who are still being taught this like in the MTC, my son that just was there six months ago, the trainers and teachers testified at the truthfulness of polygamy. Still it’s still and you know, in in seminary, they are still teaching these things. So we, so we are, we have a whole new generation continually coming up being potentially traumatized, right? So I think it’s useful to talk about your experiences in those ages, primary young women, college ages, if you don’t mind.

[11:37] Lisa: Um I, I’m, I feel like my experience doesn’t really come more until after I was married. Um And so I, other than like hating it when I would read those scriptures, like in seminary, I don’t remember too much more than that until after getting married. That’s when it really hit me.

[11:59] Michelle: OK, that’s good. So what they said? So you more were just had this feeling of, oh, and did you kind of ignore it and hate when it was brought up? Is that?

[12:08] Lisa: Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. And then um always, uh so my parents are really into like ancestry work and they absolutely love our ancestors and a lot of them practice polygamy. So hearing a lot of those stories and um and I guess I, I was gonna share this earlier or excuse me, share this later. But um I do remember hearing a story uh that has always haunted me and um Um So I have an ancestor. He went up to Utah. So I guess they were like settling in Arizona and uh he went up to Utah and he came back with a bride and his wife had no idea that um you know, she was gonna be there. So here she was super excited to see her husband who she hasn’t seen in a long time and here he is with someone else and I have always hated that story every time I think about it, it just breaks my heart. Um And so I think that was, that has just been, that has just lived with me all of these years. Just I just can’t, again, I cannot see how God can be OK with that.

[13:27] Michelle: Oh, that is. Do you happen to remember their names? I

[13:30] Lisa: don’t, I don’t, but I can find that out and then put that in like the links or something.

[13:36] Michelle: OK. And, and I only ask, I mean, that is such a common story for ancestors, whether they were going on missions to England or because I have an ancestor as well that went to conference. He was in his forties and Brigham Young over the pulpit gave him a 17 year old that happened. Her father had died. So he, it was the same story and your heart breaks for every member of that story. You know, everybody involved. Thank you for, I, I just didn’t know that part when I was as young as you, you, you know, I mean, when, when I was as young as you learned about that. So thank you for sharing that. It is incredible what we just excuse away. So thank you for sharing that. I appreciate it, Lisa. And then Heather, can you kind of talk about your growing up?

[14:22] Heather: Yeah. And I, and I feel like I’m similar to Lisa. I didn’t, it didn’t really hit me again until I was married. And I think it’s because that’s when intimacy starts, right? At least, at least in my experience, that’s when intimacy started. However, I do remember as I approached marriage, even in young women, like sometimes the question would be asked like, why, why can a man be sealed to more than one wife? You know, and there is just no answer. There was no good answer for it. And, and I felt so much at the time just like left wondering and wanting to ask questions but not wanting to get into the gray area, you know, or dangerous area where I might, you know, start questioning my testimony or something like that. So I always felt like I was walking on this really, um um what’s the word like constricted in, in a constricted uh place where I couldn’t really ask good questions and get good answers for it. So I think it just, it just kept on turning inside of me constantly because I didn’t have anywhere to go for good answers.

[15:23] Michelle: Oh, that’s so ok. That is, I love how you express that. I think that that’s something we can all resonate with the desire to be faithful and that just kind of awareness that there are places you don’t go things you don’t say and questions you don’t have. And so you have to just kind of let it fester inside and even if you do bring it up, you’re going to be like we said, gas lit or redirected or because the sad fact is there are no good answers, right? And so, so it’s kind of this unspoken or maybe spoken but generally unspoken rule of don’t ask those questions, don’t think about those things because this fear of losing your faith, right? And so, OK, that’s, that’s amazing. And it’s interesting now that seminary teachers are talking about it more but not in a better way, you know, still with like it’s almost worse to talk about it more because it has this still you have to fit into this falsehood, right? And fit all of your questions into it. So, ok, so can I just

[16:25] Heather: interject this really quick? So that, so this idea of teaching like the the doctrine of polygamy in seminary to, to men and women? I just think it does such a disservice to our daughters because as I studied Section 132 it talks about, you know, the men taking virgins and who are our virgins it’s our young women. And so that’s then like, they’re learning about what would happen if it came back. It’s about the virgins. And so I just think it, it can do a lot of damage and to the men too because then it’s ok to desire. God approves, it says, right in 132 that God approves of desiring many wives and concubines. So then what’s the problem with pornography? Right. Like, it’s just, it’s just interesting how, how it can actually turn, um, and be really, uh, just really filthy.

[17:21] Michelle: I, you know what I agree with you. It is used to justify everything. I have heard people even giving presentations and talk like sort of justifying poli pornography because men have these desires which God understands, which is why we have enemy, which also was taught in the very beginning by Orson Pratt and many of the other leaders like, well, men, we have a human nature to grapple with and we’re either gonna have polygamy or we’re gonna have prostitution or like there’s no, again, like, you know, and then also I, I just want to add to what you were saying kind of in teaching the girls that their value is in being this virgin that can be gobbled up by a man as part of the, the for his worth and that her worth and her debt. Like it’s just luckily, I hope that I hope that um our culture is strong enough in helping girls understand their value and their potential. So they’re not as vulnerable. So they’ll look at that and think it’s ridiculous rather than being, um, convinced by it. That’s my hope. But I think they,

[18:28] Heather: but the sad thing is is that if you, if you take something like that and you throw it out, so many people throw out everything right, they throw out, they throw out the whole gospel and they throw out God. And so that’s what I think is. So it is one of the reasons why the doctor is so damaging anyway, I sort of, I sort of took a, took us on a journey there. But I think it’s important to realize that, that it does affect our teenagers before they’re even married. Like this could be really damaging to a lot of people.

[18:57] Michelle: You know what one of my chi Children who is now out of the church went the rounds with seminary teachers on this and it did make them lose credibility in her eyes. You know, like, like I think that they lose, they lose, like, I wish that our church leaders could understand the impact of this and the fact that we don’t have to keep dragging it along, right? And in good, that’s come of it. And even the story that Lisa told that is such a common story of the husband showing up from a years long absence with a new wife. Like nothing they did even follows 132. Right. So, I do think it’s fascinating that for both of you, the impact of it really hit when you got married. And I think that’s because like, you can tell me, but the reality of what that would mean in this, in this relationship that you are developing and how I, I think that’s another thing that is critical, like heather the ways you were saying how this damages us to recognize how this doctrine damages marriages pretty much universally. It turns you away from your partner to both men and women, right? And it makes you feel insecure and lose trust. And anyway, so, so this is where I think we’re gonna really get into the meat of our conversation. And so does either of you want to, to volunteer to go first to kind of talk about how it started to impact you and what that was like? Sure. Yeah.

[20:32] Lisa: Sure. So, um my husband and I, we didn’t get sealed in the temple until about four years after being married and about six months before I remember polygamy just hit me out of nowhere like I was just feeling really, really bothered by it because, you know, we always put polygamy on a shelf. It’s too hard. We’re just gonna leave it, you know, leave it alone. We don’t want to think about it. But for some reason it was, it kept coming in my face, the closer we got to being sealed. And, um, and to be quite honest, um, it got to the point where I just didn’t want to be here anymore. Like if that’s something that we have to look forward to, then I’m, you know, I’m not interested in this life. And, um, and I don’t remember exactly like how I worked through that. I, um, I guess I got the typical answers from family members, church leaders. Like, it’s one of those things where we’ll understand it more in the next life. And I guess at that moment that’s when I was able to kind of let it calm down and be like, ok, I don’t understand it now, but I know that eventually I will.

[21:54] Michelle: Ok. So it sounds to me like you really had a crisis where polygamy just came right into your face where you felt, I guess, insecure in your marriage in a way, like, like, sort of felt like you had to almost question your husband’s fidelity because of the potential of polygamy. Is that? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

[22:17] Lisa: Absolutely. And I, because it, um, I just, the, the thought of him being intimate with other women, like I, I always hear, oh, well, you’re just jealous and like, like a and, but the, the, yeah, I would be jealous. Absolutely. But it’s more than that, that’s what binds a husband and a woman and makes their marriage special and if you’re sharing that with anybody and everybody, what is special about someone’s marriage. I just, ah,

[22:53] Michelle: so, yeah, I do think, I do think it is more than about sex because sex is the, like, the culminating symbol of unity in marriage. Right. And so it’s, it’s just this, like, if, if sex is shared more widely then there isn’t the unity, there isn’t the oneness and there is the insecurity period. So, it’s, it’s not just the sex, it’s everything the sex represents. Right. Absolutely. Exactly. And I do think as you’re like, I’m just thinking how we have this world where people are struggling in their marriages for so many reasons. But I’m thinking if like, if men are struggling with pornography and women are struggling with feeling insecure and that, that’s already a hard situation. You put polygamy on top of that, like how destructive of that, it just makes everything exponentially harder in marriage. Right? And for anyone listening, I hope you’ve watched the episode that I did with Alicia Worthington where we talk about some of these issues and the helpful ways to navigate them. But I’m just thinking of how undermining this is to marriage in general. And like, because if you think of being a polygamous wife, your husband is always on the prowl. And so, you know, even the, even the like meme or stereotype of a woman getting mad that her husband is looking at other women, you, you know, like walking, that would be the reality. Like, and it would be expected that he would be not only looking at but courting other women flirting with other women, but he’s never off the market man. So somehow that just you started feeling that profoundly and it impacted you to the point of bringing you to a place of suicidal, suicidality. Yeah. Absolutely.

[24:39] Lisa: That’s a very dark

[24:39] Michelle: place. Ok. Wow. I’m OK. Thank you for sharing that and, and I maybe I’ll share a little bit of my story too because I, I went to that place as well in, in my struggle with this in a different way. So, so I appreciate you being vulnerable and sharing that. Ok, we’ll come back again, Lisa Heather. Do you mind telling us how it started impacting you in your journey?

[25:04] Heather: Yeah. So, I mean, like a at that time, I was very much, very much filled with fear, like as soon as, as soon as we got married and we had like, there’s intimacy and, and not just that, but just like the friendship and the bond and like, like the commitment level, right? Like I was so I was in love and he’s always been my sweetheart, always. We’ve always been really good friends and, and to think that something could come in between us or something that could take him away from me or us, it was really, it was really challenging and like even this is a little bit vulnerable, but even even sex was hard because sometimes I would just be thinking, well, maybe someday he’ll be doing this with someone else. So, why should I even, like, why should I be so invested in this marriage? And so, um, I felt like as time progressed it just got worse and worse and like, people would, people that I trusted and I would maybe sometimes kind of share my fear about it was the same thing, like, oh, you know, our jealousies will be taken care of, you know, we won’t be jealous in the next life and it will be fine and, and I just couldn’t, I just couldn’t wrap my head around that because I thought, you know, we’re taught all the time that we’re gonna become like heavenly father. And as a woman, I’m not going to become like heavenly father, I’m going to become like heavenly mother. And what is my destiny? So when people say it’s not relevant, it’s so relevant, it’s so relevant to where I am right now in my own journey to become like our heavenly parents. Um And so when people would bring it up and sometimes people joke about it and, and for me, I thought it was the meanest thing to joke about because it in what way like, like they would just make a comment like if someone had a lot of kids or something, they’d be like, you know, where’s the other wife or whatever? You know, like just and, and not that people were trying to make me feel bad about it. But I would take it so personally because I, because I thought about it and I felt it so the fear of it so deeply. And I just remember, um I just remember going into like really deep depression every time someone would bring it up or joke about it and it would just send me into these like days and weeks of not even being very functional. Um It might sound crazy but because it, because it threatened my most important relationship. Um um It felt ii I can relate to what Lisa said it like maybe not to the point of ceasing to exist. But I remember thinking that telling my husband, like, I don’t even want to go to heaven like that, that seems like he to me to be in a place where you are with multiple sexual partners or multiple partners that I can’t do that. That just seems awful. And so um yeah, it was, it was really challenging to na

[28:24] Michelle: so for you, it was that you loved your husband so much and your marriage was so united and so good that this, oh I mean, that’s just so tragic.

[28:38] Heather: And I remember like coming to a point where, well, if this is my destiny, I can’t give my whole heart. There’s no way I can because it’s way too hurtful. And so sometimes I would just step back and be kind of indifferent and that’s hurtful to my husband because he’s like, like, if you would try to give me a hug or something and I maybe pull away or like, that’s

[29:02] Michelle: who you were. You were like, it was, it was making you pretty much accuse him of something that he hadn’t done but that the doctrine threatened you that he would one day do. Like that’s, oh, I, and I’m thinking back, I can’t remember which religious society president it was. So her name is escaping my tired brain. But um telling the women to not be attached to your husband to not look at him, just look at him in your head and like the, the, all of the advice they were given was speaking exactly to you guys. Like because if you love your husband, you are too vulnerable to the hurt and betrayal that polygamy cause. So the only solution is to do exactly what you were instinctively doing both of you, which is like um building a force field around yourself which does destroy connection. It creates distance, it creates resentment on both sides. So this affected your emotional well being your marriages, your ability to be um a really happy connected wife even though you were in a happy connected marriages. And because of the depression and the way even your ability to be a functional mother in the way that you would want to be.

[30:17] Heather: Absolutely. I, I just have to speak to that because I remember these days where um the thoughts which is spiral in my head about, like about polygamy and about the doctrine about and about our past as well because sometimes, sometimes we feel like we make it uh what’s the word like we almost sanitize it and it’s not fair because that and, and people will, people will say, you know, what about the testimonies of the women? And I think what about their private lives? What you know, what about their stories that were so heartbreaking? And, and um so anyway, like thinking of all that. So these are the things that I’d be thinking about and, and I remember feeling so angry and, and like you said, it was really hard for me to be functional in those days, even as a mom because I would be so depressed about this baggage that I was carrying. It was really hard.

[31:13] Michelle: Hey, I just wanna ask to get a broader picture and to help people that might be feeling. I hope no one is listening to this with judgmental ears, but everyone is where they are, right? I’m just curious to know if you had, if you just tended to be really overly emotional and depressed about things in general, right? Is this just like being, I mean, I always hate when people accuse me of being emotional and I think it’s so sexist, you know, but in general, did every little thing throw you into depression? Were you just not able to function in your lives that, do you know what I’m saying? Was there something about

[31:49] Heather: polygamy?

[31:50] Michelle: Yeah. Absolutely.

[31:52] Heather: And I don’t need to, I don’t need to, I want Lisa to speak to. Um, but I, but I, I very much like, I feel like I’m a well adjusted person. Things don’t throw me off. And I don’t, I don’t feel like I’m easily offended at things, but this is because it threatened the very core of our relation, my relationship with my husband. That’s why I think it sent me into such deep depression.

[32:15] Michelle: Ok. Thank you guys because that’s my impression too. You guys are both homeschooling mothers of large families and you know, you don’t seem the type to me that are just like I can’t handle life. Oh, well with me in, in general, right? So Lisa, I’ll ask you the same question.

[32:30] Lisa: Yeah, I feel like naturally I’m a really happy person. Like I love laughing and I love making other people laugh and just, I don’t know, I feel like like um in fact, sunflowers, those are my favorite flowers and I feel like that represents like perfectly like my, how I feel about life. Like I just love life, but it was polygamy specifically is like the only thing that could really send me into a deep depression like more than anything else.

[33:04] Michelle: Ok. Both of you. Thank you so much for speaking that I hope I didn’t, I didn’t want to II, I feel bad how I said that in case it made light of anyone who does just struggle with more generalized depression because that’s not what I was trying to say. I just know there will be people listening who will accuse us of being queens or just not being able to cope in general. And I want to point out that it was specifically this one thing, this doctrine that caused this, like without this doctrine, you wouldn’t have experienced these things the way that you did. Right. Absolutely. And,

[33:39] Heather: um, can I just speak to that too Michelle? Because I used to, I used to like, um, when people would tell me about like the jealousy or, you know, like being emotional about it, it wasn’t until recently that I was reading Jacob two, I think it’s like verse seven. And it, and it talks specifically about women’s tender, delicate chaste feelings and that they’re pleasing to God like this is part of our femininity and it’s, it’s good. I, I embrace

[34:11] Michelle: it. I love how you said that it, it, it kills me when I read through all of these um sermons and, and when I listen to, you know, reading journals and then listening, even to modern polygamists, how they really treat women’s natural feelings, tender feelings as sins and weaknesses that need to be overcome. It’s tragic that that’s where, where men’s, they like, assumed the universality of men’s lustful feelings must be um satisfied, right? But women’s natural, I love that you pointed that out. Thank you because it’s like women’s God given natures and like women desire safety and security and oneness and unity. And there is little like you’ve both spoken to it to. So, well, there are a few things as threatening as having all of that undermined and to have that set up from the outset by a religious false doctrine that anyway, so thank you for sharing that. So, ok, so I want to point that out. And I also, ok, I’ll just take him in. I didn’t necessarily plan to. But, um, I went through a time when it was when I was expecting my 12th and I don’t think I’ve shared this. So if you guys don’t care, I’ll share a little of my experience because like I said, I wasn’t necessarily bothered with polygamy by polygamy growing up. And I always, oh, it just kills me the arrogance of having so many Children and being so busy and feeling like I wish I had a sister, wife to help me as if she would be my personal servant and not have an entire family of her own and make the chaos that much more difficult, you know, like the burden that much heavier. That was just my thinking like, oh, I want a, a personal assistant and she can be my sister, wife, yay, you know. But, um, but then I learned that it was false, you know, and then I went through when I was expecting my 12, a really hard time in my marriage. And, um, you know, like there were things just beyond us that we were dealing with pressures that were really pulling us apart, struggles with in laws and my husband tried to figure out how to navigate that was really hard. And I felt unsupported and, you know, but it came to this point where any time I would feel powerless in my marriage or, um, unseen and unappreciated in my marriage, I would be hit with this intense suicidality that I didn’t even know what to do with. It’s something like I’m a happy person as well, but I’ve always kind of dealt with some degree of, you know, wishing I didn’t have to be here on, on. It’s just kind of part of what I’ve dealt with. I have ad D and I hear that goes with, you know, but it’s not been acute until that time. And I remember, you know, there was one time when, um, we had a discussion and then we had to get in separate cars and it was a difficult conversation and I was driving home on the freeway and like, kept catching myself trying to pull into the oncoming traffic and had to be like, you know, as I’m sobbing and I, like it was this out of control force. And then there was a night where we had another difficult interaction and I went for a drive and drove in the canyon. I kept like accelerating towards stop signs or accelerating toward the, the cliff. You know, where I finally had to pull over. This is really vulnerable for me too. So we’ll all be here together. But I, I was expecting my 12 and I was like driving my 12 passenger van in the canyon and having to dig deep and fight to the nail to not drive it off a cliff. Like that was insane to me and, and I, I didn’t, it got to because I would kind of go like, not, I don’t want to say out of my mind in some insane way. But where I was like, I would wake up and be like, what am I doing? You know, like I would kind of come to and so I didn’t dare drive. So I pulled over and um sat there and just, you know, you’re so distraught, like just sobbing and, and so broken and um I didn’t know what to do. So I felt like the biggest idiot and called the suicide hotline and, and I was like, because I was like, what II I kind of felt like I can’t, I can’t drive off a cliff. I, I would kill my unborn baby. Plus I have 11 Children at home, you know, but I can’t um I can’t leave here without somebody knowing how much I want to drive off that cliff if that makes sense, you know, it was two o’clock in the morning or whatever. And so anyway, so, and I was like, this is for like, troubled teenagers. I’m in my forties and, you know, like it felt so shameful to be in that place. But, um, and it, and it kept, it happened a few more times until I learned and it was actually in one of those experiences a few nights later because it kind of just started when, when, like my husband and I were struggling and it would send me to this place. And it was this combination of feeling powerless and unappreciated and unseen. And, um, that was what would do that to me. And so one day, well, one night, a little while later, I was in that same place again after another difficult interaction and I knew I couldn’t drive my car. So it was in the middle of November. I was however many months pregnant I was, and it was the end of November in Utah. And I just ran out to the house and was over at the park shivering in the middle of the night. I couldn’t go home. My marriage was over and I was so just not wanting to exist. You, you know, and, um, and just like you pray and pray and pray until you’re like, what’s even the point of praying almost, you know. And, um, and that was when I had this incredible um I get like this, I called it when I spoke about it before the wisdom of the mothers, this incredible peace and calm and wisdom just like completely descend and fill me with just this vision and awareness of um like, like just a couple of the details, what it’s like that thing he just said, doesn’t have to define who he is and someone isn’t, you know, I don’t need to judge my marriage by the worst things that happen in it. Right? And that’s not like it’s more than I can explain because it was also these feelings. But these little bits of knowledge where I was able to just be completely calm, go home, get in bed next to my husband without feeling like, you know, before that was an impossibility, right? Like, and, um, anyway, and, and, and this calmness and then I realized through the ensuing days it was after that experience that I was called to do this podcast. It, you know, it didn’t happen for a few years. But this, what happened was I, when I was praying about it the next day, I was just given this awareness that that was the wisdom of my polygamous foremothers. But that was their wisdom, their heart or, but it also was their pain. It was, it wasn’t my own pain. I was caught carrying that caused that bizarrely intense suicidality. It was theirs that I, that I, that I was carrying. Does, does that make sense? Like it was that combination of that powerlessness being completely powerless, being unappreciated, unseen that polygamy causes that I was carrying at that time. So I was able to kind of heal that for myself and for them. And, you know, and that’s anyway, that I think that for, I guess I’m bringing that up to say, for people who think we’re insane. I don’t think it’s just our own experience we’re carrying, if we know about epigenetics, if we know about how experiences are carried in DNA. And if we know about spiritual, you know, we have a lot of heritage and inheritance from our ancestors. And I think of a lot of, a lot of it is carrying their experiences as well. And so that extreme reaction that you both had, I think is more common than we would know. And I don’t think it was just your own. I think it was because your spirit was in tune and carrying the suffering of your ancestors or, or of your foremothers if that makes sense. Do you? Does that

[42:45] Heather: sound? Absolutely OK. Yeah. II, I totally resonate with that Michelle and I, and I appreciated that you mentioned the words like powerlessness. You even mentioned, I think ashamed and just feeling unseen. I think that those are really um those, those articulate the feelings that I experienced as well. And um so this is kind of vulnerable part of my story that. Um I hope it’s ok that I share this right now. But as I, as I um as it got worse and worse for me and the depression, I kept going through depression. Um with regards to polygamy, I, I wanna say that I was, I was like reading church essays. I was studying the scriptures. I was praying to know the truth. I know I, and I had blessings to help me and I just like there were, there were little things along the way that were keeping me going. I felt like, like I’m gonna be ok. But I remember at one point, I was just like God, I can’t do this anymore. I can’t, I can’t be a good wife. I can’t be connected with my spouse and be a good mom. If this is always part of my baggage or part of my burden. If it, if this is of you, if this polygamy thing is of you, please help me to know it and please help me to have peace and if it’s not. Um And so anyway, I, I felt like I got, I, I got all the faith faith that I could muster. And I, and I prayed and I said, God, I need you to heal me. Nothing else has worked and I need you to heal me. Please heal me. And um ah a few weeks later, um I started experiencing um seizure like symptoms and, and it usually happened at night and I would just start to shake uncontrollably. I, I couldn’t help it. Um I remember my husband just holding me and saying, I think I should take you to the emergency and I said, no, I don’t think, I don’t think that that’s what this is. But like I did go see lots of health professionals. I went for an MRI and AC T scan, everything came back normal. Um but I still kept shaking and sometimes, um in the night I was sick for hours just like, and, and at the heart of it was these feelings of powerlessness, being unseen and being so fearful of, you know, my relationship with my sweetheart, being uh being separated or, you know, being adulterated. I guess that’s what I want to say. Um And I remember my husband just one time I said to him like I just, I just can’t get over this feeling like I’ve prayed and prayed, why can’t I get over this? And, and he was so wise, he said, Heather, maybe this isn’t yours. And so I, like I knew some of my ancestors stories but not everything. And so I really started reading and mad, their stories are so heartbreaking. Um I, I had one of my, one of my great, great grandmothers, her name was Lydia and she was married as a second wife and as a teenage girl, like 16, she got pregnant right away. Um She ended up getting approval for a divorce. Um But, but as she was in that family, she wasn’t allowed to eat with the family. They, in her history, it says that she was treated like a slave and, and she was, she was living in a dugout. So I, I’ve seen pictures of dugouts before. If you, if you haven’t, you should Google. But they, they are just like bare bones of a shelter. That’s what they are. And so she was living in this. And anyway, so that was her story, at least part of her story. She has more. But then my other grandmother, her, her husband came home kind of a little bit similar to Lisa. Not quite the same, but he said, come with me to the temple so you can put her hand in mine. And she was like, you haven’t talked to me about this and she wouldn’t, she wouldn’t go with him. And he just said to her woman, I will split your head with an ax if you don’t come. And she was like, no, I, I was like, like reading her story. I’m just so proud of her strength to stand up and, and I should, I should be fair to my great, great grandfather who’s doing that. I, as I’ve studied the history a little bit, I am not a historian, but as I’ve studied the history a little bit, there is so much pressure for the men to take more wives like incredible pressure. Like this was their destiny in the eternities. And they had, they were like told they had to do it. So I have a lot of, I have a lot of compassion for him now that I understand.

[47:38] Michelle: And the men were also told it was their job to keep their women and Children and their Children in line. And because so it made him look bad if she wouldn’t submit to. So the desperation got to the point of threatening violent murder of yourself.

[47:57] Heather: Yes, it’s and, and to be fair, like later in their story, and this is after a like couple partners that he was trying to marry, um his wife must have caught him at a humble moment because she said she read Jacob tutor him and, and talked about how this is an abomination and, and he totally did a 180 he started studying and reading and he never took a second wife. After that. He, he remained, he remained faithful to her. And I was that to me, that’s such a beautiful twist.

[48:32] Michelle: If it was a genre ending, it shows how grateful he was to let that pressure go as well. The pressure that made him threaten to kill his wife and he didn’t want to do that. Ok. Wow. Thanks for sharing that. Ok. And that’s the same thing of like we are carrying this for our suffering ancestors and, and I hope healing it for them for ourselves and hopefully for our daughters as well, if we’re able to let it go. So, Lisa, did you have anything you wanted to add on this topic we’re talking about? No,

[49:08] Lisa: not really. Um Other than I do feel like my ancestors are happy that I’m learning the truth and that has distinctly come to my mind. And so, yeah,

[49:23] Michelle: that’s beautiful.

[49:24] Lisa: And finally, they’re finally learning,

[49:27] Michelle: like, and, and like Heather said before, we don’t honor our ancestors by not being honest about their stories. We don’t like not telling the family secrets and keeping the whitewash going is not fair to those suffering, tho those women and men and they’re suffering. And so OK, so I really appreciate, I also wanted to say, say Heather that, that like, I think it’s a trauma response that leads to like uncontrollable tremors. And in that time, I experienced that same thing. And um and it’s not as, not as long term and as extensively as you did, but multiple times where you cannot even, it’s hard to breathe and you can’t stop shaking for, for a long time during the night. Like I experienced that exact same thing where it’s like, I think it is a trauma response. It’s the best way I can mean it because it may, it does make you feel like you’re insane, you know, like, like something is so wrong with me. And I really think that also is a testimony of how wrong this is and how like again, Jacob to the suffering of the women and the Children under this abomination, this diabolical system. So yes, and

[50:42] Heather: I, I see that, I think that the do like in Jacob two talks about the the mourning of the daughters, right? And, and I think that in the church, there’s a lot of women that are silently still mourning and, and that like, at least for me, like, I didn’t feel like I had a very many safe places to go to talk about my fears or my concerns because they’re not welcome at church. That’s not a welcome subject and it’s not welcome in a lot of social circle. It’s a hard topic. And when you bring it up, some people will just take a deep breath and try to hush you or like, it’ll be fine, like pat your shoulder and it will be ok. But it’s, it’s not, it’s not ok.

[51:21] Michelle: Oh, I’m so, I’m so glad you brought that up because I do it is this difficulty like, like I have to be compassionate with other people because like we said, there are no acceptable answers, right? Like, and, and so I do want to know who each of you had to talk to and how you were received. Like I, I know that some husbands trying their best to like, it’ll be ok and then just give you all the same answers, you know, like, but it doesn’t really help or I mean, this is not something you maybe in relief society in a really careful way, you could say a little bit of it. But you do, you know, not like Sunday school, not in a talk and like who, who do women suffering? Like you guys both were, who do you talk to and how do they respond, Lisa. Do you wanna go first?

[52:16] Lisa: I mean, it’s, I didn’t have anybody specific. It’s a very lonely, uh, journey. Um, I, I’m kind of jumping into the middle of my story here but I did have, um, wonderful ministering sisters, um, last year that would come over and were very diligent and, um, they knew my struggle that I was having with, uh, polygamy and so I was able to talk to them and, uh, and, uh, and every time they’d come over, like I would just, I would always bring it up because I, I was not at peace with it. And, um, and one sister, she just, she said that her answer basically was Jacob chapter two and that she just doesn’t understand the rest. And so, but, but she’s going with Jacob chapter two for now and somehow everything is gonna work out. All right. Um, but other than that, like, I didn’t really have anybody to talk to.

[53:18] Michelle: Oh. And were you able, were you able to talk to your husband about it? Was, or was that even hard? No.

[53:25] Lisa: Yeah, I was able to talk with him and it, it’s so funny, not funny. Um, he, it’s never been an issue for him. Like, he was very, like, I’m not ever getting married to any other woman, you know, like I have no desire, don’t want to do that, which I will forever be grateful, you know. But that was besides the point because if it’s a true doctrine, he was gonna be forced to do it anyways, whether he liked it or not. And so, while I appreciated that he was always trying to comfort me saying, you know, I’m not getting married to anybody else. I don’t want to. It. I still was not at peace because ultimately, he didn’t have a choice when it came down the road.

[54:14] Michelle: Uh I’m glad you shared that it’s so important. Like I’m so thankful he responded that way because husbands respond all different ways. But recognizing that he didn’t have the power to fix it for you, even with all of his protestations of fidelity. And, you know, like you still knew. It’s kind of like if I can’t trust God, how can I trust my husband almost and even going to God doesn’t really work because it’s God doing it to, to you. Right. Exactly. Ok. So, but oh my gosh, thanks for sharing that about your ministering sisters. That makes like thank heaven for good ministering sisters. That’s like, that’s actually a beautiful story that they let you talk about this and, and were at least somebody that was there? So, and Lisa, I think, and, and heather, I’ll ask, I’ll ask you the same question. But first I want to ask Lisa, how many years did you struggle with this? Like, how long were you in this space? And is there anything we left out of your experience?

[55:18] Lisa: OK. Yeah. So, uh so before getting sealed in the temple and that was 12 years ago and then I was able to put it on the shelf that whole entire, like up until two years ago, I just kind of, I just kept putting it back in there. And then, um, it was the weirdest thing on Facebook in 2021 I think, spring at that time, for some reason, I started seeing a lot of pro polygamy posts and just like, just really out of the blue. Um, apparently I was friends with a lot of people who believe in this doctrine. And, um, and it was so strange because the more I read their posts, the more depressed I became. And, um, and one time I made a comment and I wasn’t, I wasn’t bashing Joseph Smith. All I simply said was I feel like I could do anything God asks me to do except for polygamy. And there’s this wonderful woman who ripped me to shreds. I mean, she just like to, I’ve never been so torn apart in a comment before. And, um, and I, again, I wasn’t like saying anything about Joseph Smith. I was just simply saying that this would be really hard for me to do. And, um, anyways I, I’ll never forget that. And, um, yeah, so it was just,

[56:54] Michelle: I have to ask you after if I know who it is because I want to ask if I know you already do. Ok.

[57:01] Lisa: Yeah, you totally do. Um, and so, yeah, I just, I was, it was weird like that all of a sudden I was having just seeing all of these posts. And um and again, this is, I feel like this is key right here. The more I try to be open and understanding a polygamy, the more depressed I became and which didn’t make any sense to me at the time. Like I don’t understand it. This is a true principle. Why, like why am I crying for literally hours after I read a progam post? Um It and so um and yeah, that was, that was the start of a really dark period in my life. Like it got really, really, really dark. Um after that, I was so angry at God um that I, I started making some really, really bad choices and um I don’t know if I want so much get into the detail of what that,

[58:25] Michelle: well, maybe can I ask a couple of questions? And was your feeling sort of like if God’s going to betray me, I’m going to betray God. If, if my husband’s going to betray me, I’m going to, like, like, was it, was that the kind of the, the thought process was in a way trying to have some semblance of control? Like, we’re talking about the powerlessness trying to take your power back in some way. Do you think that’s maybe part of what was happening? Yeah.

[58:51] Lisa: Yeah. Exactly. I think it’s kind of like, well, if Justin is going to eventually have a whole bunch of wives, then, you know, I, that’s what I’m going to do too. And I want to just first acknowledge and like, say that I recognize I was wrong for that thinking like um not making an excuse. Um but that’s where this, it, these thoughts took me.

[59:23] Michelle: Um I wanna, I wanna point out that just like Heather talked about distancing herself from her husband, which I, I think you were doing the same thing. I think it just showed up in a different way for you. I think it is that same. I need to protect myself. I, I do that by distancing myself from my connection to my husband which is feeling threatened and undermined and I’m too vulnerable. Do, do you know like, so I’m, I’m not, I’m not justifying either. I just want to acknowledge how like you, a sweet, adorable, faithful LDS mother of a family were led to making choices that you would never want to make because of your betrayal. Of polygamy. And I think it’s also interesting that here it had impact impacted you so profoundly 12 years ago before getting sealed and you were able to bottle it up and when things pop out of the bottle again, they tend to come with more of a vengeance. You’ve already bottled it up once and that wasn’t strong enough to keep it bottled for when you started seeing it come around again in posts and then, and then you being personally ripped apart just for saying, hey, this doesn’t resonate with me, you know, and, and I can see that being so anyway, I don’t wanna like justified, but I do want to validate that. I think that this is like just like Heather had such a physical reaction. I think you had this emotional reaction that led you to places you would never have otherwise gone. But yeah, is that still you?

[1:01:00] Lisa: Yeah, it does. And um I thought that like came to me was so during this period of like all of these polygamy polls coming out all of a sudden, I couldn’t figure out if it was one of two things. If one God was preparing us, preparing me to get ready for plume to come back, you know, in the next few years or whatever it was, or if two it was Satan would just knowing that that was my deepest heartache and pain and just jumping all over that. And I could, I just I kept going back and forth. Like, is this from God or is this from Satan? And um any, any time I would read scriptures um like, especially about trusting God, I would literally have the thought come right after a beautiful verse. Say yes, but God’s gonna make you do polygamy one day. Like, and so it’s just a constant, I don’t think anybody understands how obsessed I was about polygamy and trying to find peace over the matter. And it was not coming, the more I kept searching the deeper into depression that I got. And I was, it got to the point where I was so OK, so I’ve never ever doubted that God existed, not once have I ever doubted, but it got to the point where I wanted nothing to do with him. If I did the, the thought of it’s either God loves his daughters or polygamy is a true doctrine. The both could not be true. Um And so I just, I had, I wanted nothing to do with God. And um this is one of the probably the saddest moments um in my life and I’ll never forget it. My husband was, he was crying um for the things that I had done my choices during this dark period that I was in. And I remember just being so blithering, angry at him becau and at God because like, that’s how God, that’s how I’m going to be feeling when he is doing when he’s married to other women and yet it’s not ok for me to feel that way to be sad. But it’s ok for my husband to be sad.

[1:03:40] Michelle: Absolutely. You’re seeing his emotion and it matters. But yours doesn’t.

[1:03:46] Lisa: Yeah. Exactly. And, and I know it sounds, sounds selfish but I,

[1:03:52] Michelle: it sounds completely, I, I, it, I’m so glad you’re sharing this. I know it’s so hard but it sounds completely real and valid and logical. And it’s sad that both you and your husband were so victimized by this were so traumatized by it because anyway, II I just want to like, say it does make sense completely that this is how it impacted you. And I think it’s important for people to hear that and understand it. So I thank you for sharing. Was there. Did I cut you off? What were you gonna say?

[1:04:30] Lisa: No, I just, it’s uh like for me, I pretty much almost lost my family over, over this. Like it, it’s a, it’s a miracle that my husband is still with me and I’ll forever be grateful, you know. Um But that’s how dark and deep it got for me. I could have lost everything. And I want to say like, I wish I could go back to who I was two years ago and just say, just wait, just be just be patient, you know. And um like the answers will come, you know. And so I just wanna recognize, like I did not handle it. Well, like I, I wish I would have handled it with more faith and trust in God and, and, you know, be ok, but I just couldn’t understand why, the more I was trying to learn and be open to polygamy and understand it. Why did I, why was I becoming more depressed and like to the point of not only did I not wanna live on this earth anymore, I didn’t wanna exist. Like just I, if I had the option to cease to exist, I would have gladly taken that because I feel like I had hell to look forward to.

[1:05:58] Michelle: So heaven is hell and hell is hell and there’s no escape. Exactly. And um and I wanna point out this critical part of both of your stories that the more you try to submit, the worse your situation got, the more you try to submit to who you thought God, God was and who you’ve been taught. God was the like just that such that resonate so strongly with by your fruit, by their fruits, you shall know them. I think it means the fruits of the doctrines of the ideas, the seeds that you plant and you were desperately trying to plant these seeds in your heart, in humility and faithfulness. Like all of your intentions were so good and yet the seeds were rotten. I, I think that’s so important to recognize that both of you got to the places you got because of your continued faithfulness to try to submit. I think that’s really important to recognize as well. And I hope, I hope people will hear that, you know it. I hope our church leaders will hear that it’s so important. So thank you Lisa for sharing that. And um I, I, ah I thought that was really, really impactful. I really appreciate it. And um so I want Heather, I’ll ask you again who you were able to talk to. And then I want to go forward with both of you to talking about how you started to learn something different and how that impacted you. So, Heather in your dark, difficult times. Who were you able to talk to? And how did that go?

[1:07:34] Heather: Well, I, I was, I, I was really grateful to have a very, I’m, I have a wonderful husband. I am so grateful for him and, and even though he didn’t understand where I was coming from, I think Lisa and I, maybe all of us can relate to that, um, with our husbands, but he would still listen, he would still listen and try to like at least comfort, you know, show comfort and fineness. There was no judgment. But I do remember him saying like, Heather, why we don’t need to worry about this? Like, this is not us, this is like way long time ago, right? And I know we talked about this before. But, um, but it wasn’t until we started reading some of like ancestor stories and um some of the early pioneer women stories. And I, I distinctly remember just sitting on my bed and I, and we had been reading them and he just, he just reached over and he grabbed my news like Heather, I think I get it now and just like, just feeling like that he had some empathy for where I was coming from was so profound to me that like we were in this together. Like this is our struggle now, not just mine and I really, I really appreciated that but like, I’m so grateful that Lisa had her husband and her. But there’s really, at least for me, I don’t think there were a lot of people that we could talk to about this, but I was really grateful for if anyone, it was my husband.

[1:08:59] Michelle: OK? And I just wanna send a giant shout out from everyone listening to this collective, shout out to your husbands. These like really good guys. Like anyway, I just, oh, like all the love in the world, all the gratitude and appreciation for being such amazingly good guys. And I think both of them from what I’m hearing really were able to tap into that empathy and that understanding in really marvelous ways that I think probably your struggle blessed your husband as a and helped helped them to be the man, you know, like, like I just think that’s an amazing and both of those stories are amazing and beautiful, both for you and for your husband. So please send them our gratitude as well and our love because that’s beautiful, how they both responded to your struggles that took you to such difficult places. So yeah, and I guess that’s another thing I want to, I hope people can hear is the pain and the loneliness of this struggle that women experience, right? It is like, like you talked about, you can’t talk about it almost anywhere. And if you are fortunate enough to have a husband, you can talk about it with, that’s wonderful. But he doesn’t have the power to fix it even he can’t fix it for you. Right? So OK, so now let’s move forward. So I think we’ve gotten a picture. I hope people have and if anything else comes up later as we keep talking, feel free to add in. If you think of anything else, I don’t wanna um I don’t wanna go lightly over the things you’ve shared because I think it’s so profound to understand the trauma that this caused you personally and in your relationships and how it impacted you as mothers of families. You know, you guys are important. You can’t be taken out of life for anything but certainly not over this false doctrine that we need to get rid of. So, ok, so anyway, going forward, I would love to know like kind of your experiences of learning that there was that, that there was a different way to understand all of this. Did, did you have um premonitions that you were going to see something different? And, and how, how did you start to walk a different path? Because when I’m looking at both of you, you both look radiant, you’re smiling, you’re happy, you’re healthy, like you don’t look like you’re suffering anymore. So I wanna know how that journey happened. So Lisa, do you want to show first? And

[1:11:21] Lisa: yeah. Uh so before getting like into that, I kind of wanna um just tell a little bit more. Uh a year ago, I went to education week and uh in Utah and um I specifically wanted to take the cloy class that was offered, there was um I think I went to two different classes and um one of them, it was, I mean, it was the most packed class out of all of the the classes. So the line was wrapped around the building. I mean, like, and they had to open like three extra rooms because people, you know, I, I think there’s this great awakening. We want to know truth and feel, you know, good about polygamy. And I just remember when I was,

[1:12:13] Michelle: do you remember who was teaching that class?

[1:12:15] Lisa: I don’t, I I can go back and see if I have like notes to send it to

[1:12:20] Michelle: me because I’m going to, I have a video I want to do, responding to the ways that are leading voices, speak about polygamy. So I love you.

[1:12:30] Lisa: Ok. So I was sitting in that class and just, um, and, and the same thing, I just, I was trying to be open. I think that’s key. Have to remember that, that I was sincerely trying to understand. I was desperate for peace over the matter and, and it, it just, it never came. I never felt, I didn’t feel any better after the class. In fact, I felt worse, having like, regretted having gone. Um, and then I think the last night I was so my mom, she knows that I was struggling with this issue. And the one question that I really wanted answered was, do we have a choice in the next life to do polygamy or not? Because I have heard, um, that in order to get to the highest degree of glory, we have to participate in polygamy, which is devastating to me because from my understanding is in the highest degree, that’s where you can have more kids, right? And I want to have, uh, you know, I love having kids and I want to have as many as I possibly can in the next life. Um, if you know, if that’s a true principle. And so I was desperate to hear them say you don’t have to do plug me in order to get to the highest degree. And, um, and it was this ok, strangest thing because during that class he was going over section 132 and then digesting it and it, and he basically said what I wanted him to say, what I’ve been, what I wanted to hear and, like, my, and I remember my mom looking at me and she’s like, oh, that’s your answer, you know. And, and I didn’t, and I surprisingly felt really empty. I didn’t have the spirit like I didn’t have this moment of like who, like here’s the answer that I was, you know, expecting to get. And um and looking back, I think that’s because it, it was like, it was a truth mixed with a lie. Like because because polygamy was still a part of the, the equation in his answer. And so I think that’s why the spirit couldn’t testify of truth because there was that lie that was, you know, mixed within it. Um And so that was confusing, like what I hear, I’m hearing what I want to hear, but I, but I’m not feeling, I’m not feeling the spirit confirm anyway

[1:15:14] Michelle: um that I can totally make sense, but I get that.

[1:15:19] Lisa: Yeah. And then I have um I, I did open up to a sister, uh my oldest sister of mine about my feelings on polygamy. And after education week, she sent me a Brian video and it was, it was three hours long and I’ll tell you I watch every minute of those three hours. And like that evening, I, I don’t think I got any sleep because I was sobbing through the entire night and my husband was holding me and nothing he was saying was consoling. Like, um, I had no idea that. So Joseph Smith supposedly got married to women behind Emma’s back without her even knowing. Like, I, I had never heard those stories before. Um, or I think the kicker too was I had always understood that if the first wife said no, then they would have to go with that answer. But that’s not what he was saying. He was basically saying, well, whether you like it or not, like if the man feels to call more women, you know, to get married to more women, then he’s perfectly able to do that. So that completely took away my, um my only defense, any power that I had, you know, and then just, of course, feeling heartbroken for Emma and just having, having gone through such deep personal betrayal. Like I, I just, I cannot imagine a loving God asking his his sons to do that to his daughters, you know. Um, it, it just so I will ever be grateful that she sent me that video. Um As hard as it was because it, it’s just, again, the more I tried to understand it, the more depressed I became and um so fast forward a couple months later, I was just I, my missing sister, she came over and she could tell how weighed down I was, I just had this dark um blackness around me and I felt really heavy as she gave me the advice. Um And I didn’t really recognize it at the time, but I, I needed rest from this subject. Um And she told me that to lay it all at God’s feet and just give it to him. And so that evening, I said the hardest prayer I have ever prayed in my entire life. And I just basically said if you want me to do polygamy then that I will do it. Um Hold on a second. Um Sorry little kid came in a lot

[1:18:29] Michelle: of kids. We love kids. It’s OK. So sorry.

[1:18:34] Lisa: Are we able to pause? Do you want to pause for a

[1:18:37] Michelle: second? Yeah, I’m

[1:18:38] Lisa: so sorry. Yeah, just a second.

[1:18:40] Michelle: Ok. They’re super cute. They are cute. I love them.

[1:18:49] Heather: Hi guys. I can

[1:18:55] Michelle: I just ask you remind me how many boys and girls you have. I know I told you, you told me before. Is it five? Yeah.

[1:19:00] Heather: Four and five? Ok. I think I don’t even think we need to edit this out. This is great. Like I love to just part of the part of life.

[1:19:10] Michelle: Yeah, I would have you talk but I don’t want um Lisa to miss

[1:19:14] Heather: this is perfect. Don’t worry about me for one second. I am loving this. She’s doing

[1:19:20] Michelle: great. Lisa’s gone. We could go on with part of your journey. Well, I’ll ask, is there anything that you like want to add to your experiences as well? Any of the things that impacted you before you, you know, while you were trying to understand polygamy? Yeah, so,

[1:19:36] Heather: so, so this is, this is edited out. I should like, I, I’ll tell you but, but I, I want, I’m assuming that you want Lisa to finish first. But yeah, there’s, there’s something else that I maybe I could include. Like there was a time where I

[1:19:52] Michelle: I’ll just include this if that’s OK if Yeah,

[1:19:55] Heather: OK. So there was, there was a time kind of like Lisa, like I’ll lay it at your feet. Um a little bit. I, I just remember being like, I’ll do anything but polygamy and, and I was trying to think of like, what could I offer? God that would be good enough, you know, like to say, you know, Heather, you’ve done enough, you know. And so I, I thought, well, my understanding of, of polygamy, this is before I had a different interpretation of Jacob 230. Um I have a very different interpretation of it now. But when I did think that polygamy was for raising up seed, I, I said to God, I was like, I will have as many Children as you want to send me if I don’t have to do this. And at that point, like I had a lot of fear around childbirth and like, it’s not, it’s not an easy thing to commit to. Um But having said that like, I have lots of kids, I have nine Children. Um II I feel like it’s no longer a pact anymore with God. I feel like this is part of my mission now and I’m embracing it 100%. So, um but it is really interesting how polygamy can kind of twist our thinking a lot to think that we have to do something really grand in order to like make God accept us, you know, or, or value our, our agency or

[1:21:23] Michelle: you have to earn your worth. And I will say we’ll come right back. We were just talking about this really fast, but also the um having a large family is so difficult that feeling like you have to do it is very different than actively feeling called to it and choosing it, right? And so if you are like, like you expressed now you love it and you embrace it. And I think that’s so important because if you’re doing it to earn your worth, it’s too hard to do it for those reasons. Do you know what I mean? Like you can’t do it well and without feeling completely victimized, like I’m really glad we were forced to have our large families. So thank you for sharing that as well. So Lisa, OK, back to and we were asking, are you OK if we just leave that in because I thought it was, we both thought it was perfect and they’re darling. That’s

[1:22:14] Lisa: fine.

[1:22:17] Michelle: So, um so anyway, you were, where were we? You were saying that?

[1:22:23] Lisa: So I was in the middle of my prayer and just laying everything down at God’s feet. Basically, I cannot do this anymore. It is too heavy for me and I am desperate for peace and I completely broke in front of God and I just, and I said, thy will be done if you want me to do, plug me, I will do it. But I’m going to need you to help me do this. And um and so I, and that was it, it was like the end of October. Um and I was sobbing, of course, during the whole prayer, just like, I can’t believe that I’m to this point where I’m willing to do it. But like, you know, I want, I wanna be a good person. I want to do what God wants me to do. And I think that was um another hard thing was all, all of the pro polygamist posts that I would read was, well, only the righteous are going to do it, you know. So then I’m like, well, what’s wrong with like, what’s wrong with me? Why am I so unrighteous that this is hard for me to do? You know, because I’ve always tried to be a good person and you my entire life. Um, so I couldn’t, it, it is so condescending, you know,

[1:23:46] Michelle: the self righteousness, the arrogance of, oh, well, you don’t have to worry about it because it’s only for the righteous. It’s, it’s really, really sickening the, uh, it’s, it’s, I, I just, I love when I first connected the fact that Jacob intentionally or God intentionally combined pride and polygamy in that it’s especially important chapter Jacob two. It’s pride and polygamy because they absolutely go together.

[1:24:10] Lisa: Yeah. Yeah, they do. And, um, so after this prayer, um I had actually been off of Facebook for almost an entire year at this point. So I got off the end of 2021. Uh And then I was so, yeah, so I was off for a year and I kept feeling prompted to get back on Facebook, which was really interesting to me because I wasn’t planning on getting back on yet. And so the end of, uh November, um I got back on and I’m not even kidding. One of the very first posts that I came across was a friend sharing your podcast. And, um it was the episode on Emma and Joseph Smith that, that specific one. And I’m like, you know what, I had nothing to lose at this point. I, you know, I’ve already watched so many, um, might as well listen to another, you know, to see if I can, you know, understand more. And I think it was almost two hours long. And I literally cried the entire episode, I finally felt the piece that I was looking for. And it was like, this weight came off of my shoulders and it came off of my head and my heart. And like, it was like, the spirit was like saying yes, yes, yes. This is your answer. And I will never ever forget it. And I love when you kept saying in your podcast, like this is what a wife is, this is what a wife does. And um and so ever since then, the more that I have watched the, your podcast is it makes sense to me, it feels good, it feels right. And I just like that’s it. That’s the answer. And so I can say I have gone to literal hell and back and I know the difference between looking into pro polygamous arguments and then listening that ply me is not of God and it never has been and just, I, I know for myself and nobody can ever take that away from me.

[1:26:43] Michelle: OK? That’s just, it’s so profound, that’s obviously so validating to me too because um knowing that, um I mean, that’s what I have said is like when I had that experience with the polygamist, the matriarchs, the wisdom of our matriarchs, you know, when I am was praying and basically just saying, what can I do to pay you back for the peace and wisdom? They give me and the answer was tell other women, tell other women what I had already learned about polygamy. And like I said, it didn’t impact me the way it impacted both of you. So anyway, that’s so validating to me to know that, um, that I’m being able to do that and that it is helping, you know, because anyway, so thank you so much for sharing. And actually that Emma episode was one of my favorites because I learned so much and it was so impactful. That was the one that finally convinced me that Joseph wasn’t involved in it either. So anyway, so thank you for sharing that Lisa and I am um so thankful for the testimony you shared and for like you expressing that the weight, the blackness that you had been in for so long and the only way to escape it at all was to just turn it. Like I assume that’s part of why you went off Facebook was to stop being surrounded by it. I think I’m not at all surprised that you started seeing all of this in 2021. So I think what had ha what happened was that during 2020 a lot of people galvanized around kind of the situations happening in the world and a lot of new Facebook connections were made and a lot of those people happened to also be the pro polygamy people and how weird the world is and people feel like it’s more signs of the times and more, we’re, we’re more less Daisy than we were before Daish. How would I say that? And um and, and so therefore, it’s time for polygamy to start coming back into the discourse. So anyway, I think that that’s because I experienced the same thing seeing this. Like, why is polygamy coming everywhere? You know. So anyway, thank you though for sharing that. And I’m so thankful that um you received that testimony because it wasn’t, it wasn’t my podcast. It was the Lord. The, the that speaker said the words you thought you wanted to hear and needed to hear exactly the spirit you

[1:29:07] Heather: so Lisa, I love that. You shared that about that because I, I know that our steak a few years ago we had someone come and present on p Me too and, and they really softened it like, and they said exactly what I wanted them to say. But like you said, it didn’t sit, it didn’t feel like it was all true. Like there was some truth to it. Um And, and I know that it brought some comfort to some people there, but like it was just truth mixed with philosophies of men. Maybe I don’t like. And so and so, but I can, I really relate to what you said about, the more that you studied it, the darker you felt because every time I would read section 132 I would be just like heartbroken and sick, like physically ill from reading it. And, and I remember just crying to God being like, this is not my God, this is not you like, like praying like my relationship with God was peaceful and good and full of love. And this felt like anything but love. And, and I just remember so after, after I had experienced these seizure like symptoms, I remember it like coming to a place where I was a lot better people could say talk about polygamy and it wouldn’t like send me into this depression. But I do remember going back and studying my scriptures and I like cross referencing and I came to 132 and I thought, oh I can, I can handle this now. And I read it and the same darkness just washed over me and this, I felt like this voice in my, my head said Heather, there’s purpose to this struggle. You need to go and learn and find the truth. And so before I had been way too, like I’d read church essays, but I’ve been too scared to go where other people had gone because I didn’t, I knew that polygamy had led people out of the church and I had a big family and, and I, I didn’t want, I didn’t want to go there. So I didn’t want to access those resources. I was too, I was too scared to do it. But I did ask my husband to study with me and he agreed. Um, but I thought, kind of like Lisa said, nothing could get worse. Like, this is as worse as it gets. And I’m just, I’m just gonna study it now and find the truth. And so, and so I started studying and, yeah, and I bumped into your podcast, Michelle. I bumped into like, um, Gwendolyn Wine has a podcast and she, she has a paper that she wrote. I, I bumped into her and just other people and I started like, feeling what I felt were the fruits of the spirit finally, like, and it’s really interesting because I hope that I say this every, I started really studying the scriptures and like in my patriarchal blessing, it talks about Zion. And I’d always been like wanting to keep Zion at arms like way far away from me because I thought that it encompassed polygamy somehow always did. And but as I started studying Zion in the book of Mormon, I found, I found a really interesting pattern that like, um there are three examples that I can think of anyway in my studies is like Alma’s people who leave polygamous King. No, they kind of established this at least approaching Zion like society and like King Benjamin’s people. And when Christ comes to the earth and he teaches the people, all those times are like approaching Zion or a Zion like society and every single time they’re monogamous every time. And that was really profound to me. And then I studied the ones that weren’t. So when you look at Jacob Two, then he fights for obviously engaging in it and there was pride, right? You see, you don’t see pride in, in Zion like societies. And then when you look at King Noah, who is a polygamist, there was lots of pride going on and same with relish like it with um the Jared nights, I think. And so, and so it’s interesting to compare it like three and three. And then another thing that I noticed was that throughout those z like societies and when I saw like, um like, it’s clear with monogamy, like there’s these little verses that say at every man to take his wife and return to his own home, like something like that. And you just know that they were anomous. But what was really interesting is that throughout the sermons or throughout like Christ’s teachings, you see the fruits of the spirit, like those words of faith, you know, gentleness, meekness, like that’s how, that’s how I felt when I read those parts of the scriptures. Um But then when I, I kind of did an interesting study of section 132 and I didn’t find any of those words in there. There was no meekness, there was no gentleness, there was nothing. And, and I thought that was for me, that was a, a clear answer from God. But this, this is not, this is not part of my doctrine.

[1:33:51] Michelle: Yes, I, I love that. That’s because that was one of the things that hit me so strongly too is like the same God is not the author of 132 and Jacob two or the rest of the script. The rest of the doctrine of covenants, the rest of the woman. Yeah, like this is not the same voice. This is not the same author at all. Yes. OK.

[1:34:14] Heather: And so sorry, go ahead.

[1:34:17] Michelle: No, no, I wanted you to continue. OK. So, so that was,

[1:34:20] Heather: that was really powerful to me. But I feel like, like, I feel like my learning has been very slow and I know that’s because I’ve always been really cautious. I’ve always been like um kind of dogmatic, I guess in some like to some degree, I’ve always really wanted to do what is right and like, check off my list. And so like stepping away from this idea that polygamy is not a God has been a really slow process for me. I feel like it’s just been like one little thing at a time, you know, reading the scriptures or talking to other women or um like reading stories of women back back at that time and seeing the fruits of the spirit or the fruits, the non fruits of the spirit. Um And that, that’s sort of been a big part of my journey. It’s just been really slow.

[1:35:14] Michelle: So can you talk about, like, sort of the impact it had on you? Like, how did you first open? How did you first become aware of the possibility that polygamy wasn’t of God? Because that doesn’t sound like something that either of you considered as a possible answer until this time. And so how did you first consider that? And what was the impact that had on you?

[1:35:37] Heather: So, I, I hope it’s ok that I go um Well, I was like, honestly Michelle, like you, I read, I read a article by Steve Reed. Um He does, I think he has a blog. It’s called One Climes. And he, he does a reinterpretation of Jacob 230 where he talks about because that was a verse also as well as the verse in second five where it talks about seven men to every or seven women to every man. And then Jacob 230 where it says, you know, uh like, basically, if, if I will raise, if I’m going to raise up seed, I’m gonna command my people. And I always assumed that that meant he’s gonna command polygamy. But like re watching your podcast on Jacob 230 as well as reading Steve Reid’s um paper just flipped my mind like, oh my goodness, this is, there’s a very different interpretation of the scripture. And so that was one of the, and I remember I remember someone, maybe it was you Michelle that, that said like, so all of a sudden God might command polygamy, but then he doesn’t care about his daughters. Like I remember that had been such a big part of my thinking. Like, how could he do? Like, how can I can’t hold these two ideas in the same sentence? I just can’t. And so and so to be able to see that verse in the context of the Jacob servant made so much more sense and really started to awaken my mind to like this idea that maybe this actually isn’t a God and that was really powerful for me.

[1:37:04] Michelle: And was that confirmed for you at some point? Like, how do you feel like you have a testimony of the eternal truthfulness of monogamy that’s been given to you by the Lord. I’m just curious to know where you are on it.

[1:37:18] Heather: Yes. And I, and I think, I think the reason is because I see the fruits like, like there’s a scripture in um that we actually just recently read as a family. I think it’s a Marone. I don’t remember Marone eight or something like that. And it says like um basically, like this is how you tell good from evil. And if it, if it invites you to do good and persuades you to believe in Christ, then it’s set forth by the power and gift of Christ. And you may know that it is God. I, I didn’t taught that perfectly. But, but that scripture was really and I, and I had this aha moment like polygamy leads people away from the church and, and ultimately many people from God, that’s, that’s been my experience, what I’ve seen with other people. It doesn’t, it doesn’t persuade me to believe in Christ, but monogamy and how Christ taught about marriage and this, that, that really persuades me to believe in a loving savior that loves his, like and God and mother and father that love their daughters, which has also been another interesting ideas because like, as I’ve gone through this journey, I’ve, I’ve really wondered who is my heavenly mother, I really want to connect with her. You know, and if she’s part of the many that God has like, you know, that I, I really actually believe now that I’ve studied that this idea of polygamy actually mocks our sacred mother in heaven. I think it mocks her to such a degrading degree. And, um, that is something that I personally have felt that I needed to repent of this idea that I had that I had kind of at least to some degree believed that this was our mother and father, that, that was their story. And, and ever since I’ve, ever since I’ve actually felt like I’ve let that idea go and, and really tried to embrace what I believe is true about our mother in heaven. I’ve had some profound experiences with her. And so I felt like I had to bring down the wall of polygamy in order to connect with my mother in heaven.

[1:39:37] Michelle: That, that’s so beautiful. I think, I think you’re exactly right. It is a mockery of our heavenly parents, both like both

[1:39:46] Heather: of them. Absolutely.

[1:39:48] Michelle: That God Heavenly Father is a polygamist husband, the dictator moved out to the, you know, the, and, and that our mother is a nameless, faceless part of a harm is just, yeah. So, ok, man, I, I hope that this conversation has been impactful to people. I think it’s been so valuable. I don’t want to end without asking if there’s anything. Well, let me, let me see. I want to go to this one other place. All of a sudden my screen got dark and I don’t know why. So I hope this video is still coming through. Ok. But I do want to um I was gonna close but, but there’s another thing I wanted to touch on which is kind of the, the fear you spoke to Heather of. We, we, we tell this verse of even the very elect where possible will be led astray, right? Without rec like we interpret that to mean that even really faithful church members can be led away from the church without recognizing what I think it actually means that really faithful people can be deceived by false doctrines as all three of us are examples of, right? But I do want to ask sort of how you have navigated the struggle that so many people are afraid of, of, of accepting the fact that we have false doctrines in our history and, and how that impacts your relationship with the restored Gospel and with the church, does it like, do, should I start with Heather this time first and then go to Lisa? Is that or no,

[1:41:27] Heather: a great sport? Oh, that’s a really good question Michelle because I feel like I honestly, I feel like I’m still navigating it. But what I have told people who I love that, that are concerned about me when I’ve shared my, like, shared some of my thoughts about it. Um I, I really feel like my faith has been pruned and simplified when I, when I think about the doctrine of Christ. So this, this is what’s exciting to me is that I’ve always, my, my parents were so good at having us read scriptures every day as a family and individually and, and, and I’m so grateful that they taught me the language of the scriptures and to love them. Um Because now that I’ve, now that I’ve let polygamy go, I read the scriptures with very different lenses on actually, and I might take them more seriously. Something that’s really stood out to me as I read, like with our family, with their little Children. Is that over and over and over again, the gospel of Christ or the doctrine of Christ is taught and it’s so simple. It’s faith in Christ, it’s repentance and its baptism and, and really, if we focus on those things, if we, if we believe in Christ and look at the sermon on the mount, you know, read the beatitudes and think about trying to pattern our lives in that way. That to me is a really good path to follow where I’m at. So, my, my faith is really simple. Um, and, and it’s, it feels more solid and it feels more beautiful to me than I ever did before. It doesn’t feel shaky. I don’t feel fearful about studying things like I used to. I don’t feel scared that I’m gonna, you know, leave the church. I just feel like I am solidly grounded in this idea of what the gospel and what the doctrine of Christ is and that’s how I’m navigating it right now is just simplifying.

[1:43:25] Michelle: Oh, ok. I love so much what you said. I want to add one more piece to the principles of the gospel, which is also the gift of the Holy Ghost, right? Because which, which I think that’s so important because those first steps are the ones we all have in common. And then when we get there, we have the Holy Ghost that leads us all on our individual journey, right? And so that’s why the rest of it isn’t as universalized, I think. But I love how you describe to me, you just described like, oh, is it second me by 28 29 28 or 29 about being on the sand or being on the rock, right? Because when you’re on the sand, it’s so complicated and everything can topple and you can’t move around freely and you’re so defensive because you’re protect everything, right? And what you just described is the simplicity of the rock where you are so grounded and it’s so clear and you can navigate in every direction and you don’t have the fear and the defensiveness of learning. And right. So, so it has, you said pruned, it is purified your faith and strengthened your faith. Is that absolutely.

[1:44:33] Heather: And can I say that? So as I started studying polygamy, I knew that it was shaky ground for me because I, so I really felt prompted to study Christ’s words at the same time. So I felt I felt prompted to, to use that to ground what I was learning that was new so that I could so that I could look at the fruits and, and compare them and see if they matched. So that that’s been really helpful to me is to really study the scriptures and ponder and obviously pray and, and be asked to be to be guided in the right way. So those things have been helpful.

[1:45:08] Michelle: I love that. And I also want to again pick up on your word pruning because the thought I had with how you did that is it’s so easy. It’s it’s really easy to lump everything in together and it’s all or nothing that black and white thing that we’re too often raised with. Like I talked about it, my house of cards episode just like if, then if, then if, then, right. And, and so it’s like, oh, if I see a rotten rose on that rose bush, I’m gonna pull out the whole bush. Right. Instead of recognizing that if you will take the time and the care to go through carefully and prune out the dead, the dead branches, you will end up with the most glorious rosebush or the most glorious testimony. And that’s what I’m hoping that people could do is be willing to invest the time to do the pruning rather than pulling it all out or leaving it. Oh,

[1:46:00] Heather: absolutely. And also, ok, I want to say one more thing that’s been really a good fruit for me. So before, before I believe plumy was a God, I was terrified to share about the gospel. I wouldn’t share it like people because I, because I thought, well, if they get baptized and they accept all these wonderful things about the gospel, then they’re gonna also learn about polygamy and either like I betrayed them or, but ever since I’ve let that go, I am like talking to, I can talk to anybody about the gospel and that’s never happened before ever. So I’m talking to people who left the church. I’m talking to people who, who like are on their way out or who might be considering coming back in and I’m just talking to them and it’s not weird. They’re engaged with me and we both see like the simple fruits or the simple teachings of Jesus Christ are really universal. I feel like they really are and they, they bring us together. They, they create this oneness that we hear about in Zion. So that so sorry, I just had to say that too because it, it makes me excited.

[1:47:04] Michelle: I, I really hope like, I want people to send this to their church leaders and just share this widely. So people can hear the fruits of good doctrine as opposed to the evil fruits of Faltz doctrine. So that’s a few. Thank you for sharing that. It also takes kind of the shame and embarrassment away as well as the fear, right? So thank you for sharing that. OK. That was beautiful. Um Lisa, do you wanna tell us like, how you’re navigating?

[1:47:34] Lisa: Yeah. So it um growing up, my mom was really good about having us read scriptures and I was always really interested when they would, when it would talk about false doctrines, right? And of course true doctrines. And so then fast forward to now that’s kind of the space that I’m in is um OK. So like I love what Carolyn uh Pearson said in her, yes. So what she said in her book, The Ghost of eternal polygamy. And she said that something to the effect of, um she has, it’s like a puzzle piece and she’s like looking at every single piece differently. So instead of saying this whole puzzle is true, um it’s more looking at everything individually and asking is this piece true? Is this piece true? And so I feel like that’s the space that uh my husband and I and I are in is just, you know, I, we want to live true doctrine. And um and, and we were warned about false doctrines in the book of Mormon for a reason. And so now when we read the scriptures, instead of saying, like applying it to everybody else, it’s more looking inward and saying, how does this apply specifically to us to our church, you know, et cetera. Um And that has made a whole big difference, you know, instead of pointing elsewhere, it’s, it’s looking inward and like there’s a scripture in uh Doctor Congress that talks about the lore cleaning out his house first. So my question is if he needs to clean out his house first, what are we doing that? He’s not happy with, you know, and um and so I find myself just asking more questions like that, just being curious and open instead of assuming that I already know what the answer is because that’s what I did with Plug me. I literally had zero concept or zero room in allowing for there to be another narrative about plugging me in my head because that’s all I thought there was. Um But throughout the, that I was off Facebook, um I kept feeling God saying look in the scriptures, you know, and like for the answers and I already thought I’m like, well, that’s dumb. I already know that you want us to do plug me. So like, I’m not gonna learn anything different and so just don’t be like me, don’t think that you already know all the answers. Um

[1:50:23] Michelle: Well, I want to point out a couple of things there as well because just like you talked about you and your husband, like the puzzle piece is another analogy for the pruning shares that we’re talking about going through and looking for what needs to be cut out so that the so that the gospel can blossom and testimony can blossom, right? Kind of how you’re talking about looking at the book of Mormon about what it teaches us what it says about us. But it like really letting go of polygamy means letting also letting go of the pride. That is the danger of like the entire message of the book of Mormon. Uh go listen to President Benson’s talk about it, right? It’s about pride. It’s about the pride that that is in our day. And I love the term institutional pride. I actually got that from Denver Snuffer that the institutional pride of just thinking we are the right ones. We know all the answers, we have everything we need. And so we’re not open to learning more. And so I love that, like how you kind of demonstrated that let it go of polygamy, made you much more humble and seeking and open to being taught by the Lord and by the scriptures. I think that’s profound as well.

[1:51:30] Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. And I’m um I, I love the term keeping the baby and then throwing out the dirty bathwater. And I feel like that’s what my husband and I are doing is we still very much have a testimony of Jesus Christ and, and God heavenly Father, you know, um and like, and the book of Mormon and I love Joseph Smith more than I have ever loved him before. And, and so just really sticking to what we do know is true and being patient with the rest in the meantime, just recognizing we don’t know everything, you know. So not we will not throw everything out. Um But just recognizing that there is stuff that does need to be thrown out. And so it’s been a very fascinating journey.

[1:52:22] Michelle: It is, but what I love about it also is taking the personal authority. It’s like, ok, God, it’s you and me and I’m, I’m likely and myself, right? It’s like we are navigating this and instead of just like giving away our stewardship to have someone else do the work for us and tell us what God wants us to know which does not lead us to God does not help us to be the people that God needs us to be. And that doesn’t, it does, that does not create Zion. I feel like this creates Zion where we are each taking the um responsibility to come to know the voice of the Lord to do the work, to discern truth from error. I think I, I just love how both of you shared that because I think that’s exactly what we’re supposed to be doing. And just like it sounds like just like for me, this has actually strengthened your testimony of the book of Mormon and strengthened your connection to God. I hope people can hear that as well so that they can know to, to um approach this with excitement and eagerness, letting go of fear and knowing that there is so not only is there room for faith in this perspective, there’s so much more room for faith to just flourish as opposed to be suffocated by the false doctrines. So so can

[1:53:41] Heather: can I interject too because I love what you both were saying. And, and a few years ago, I think President Nelson gave a talk like a plea to my sisters. I can’t remember if that’s but, but he, he invites the women of the church to speak up and speak out no matter their calling. And I just, I just love what you said because I think that, that this whole topic, it’s, it’s ours to some degree, like it’s ours to own. Like, yes, I, as I was, as I’ve been, like, studying this and as I’ve been praying, I, I hope it’s ok that I share this, but it’s a little bit personal. But, um, as I was praying to know what to do. Not like that, I had this information about polygamy. I, I felt like God gave me a very specific instruction and um it was to share the truth about it um with a meek and quiet spirit. And so because, because I feel like this can be such a divisive. It’s a very divisive issue in the church. It can be very divisive in families, especially when like, you know, one person thinks one way and another person. I, I, like, I’ve experienced that division and, and I’ve also experienced being not having a me not having a be quiet spirit and how and how those conversations play out. They, they don’t, they don’t create um a situation where anyone is willing to listen. But, but as I prayed and, and been able to have the ability to approach people with an, with a, with gentleness and openness to their perspective too, um I’ve had some really powerful beautiful conversations with people on this subject to help them see what I believe is the truth of it and, and without, you know, without cutting them off or, you know, saying you’re wrong, I could and, and, and that for me has been like the scripture that says like perfect love cast all fear or in the scriptures of it, say that the word of God was, was greater than the sword. In terms of changing hearts. There’s so much hatred and anger. I just think, I just think that if we can sow love and patience and goodness as we share this truth with other people, that it will, it will be, it will be much more powerful and effective way of sharing it.

[1:56:06] Michelle: Oh, I love that so much. I feel like, well, well, Lisa, like I’ve read several of your posts that I think are just beautiful in your comments on Facebook. And when you contrast that to the response you received, when you first said something about polygamy, right? And heather, the experience that you’re talking about. Like, I really hope that I too, I’m trying because I feel like I’ve kind of been told the same thing like, like humility and invitation and compassion rather than preaching and, and you know, like, like I think that that is and I also can, oh, we’ve talked for a while. I hope people, I, I want to share one more story that I haven’t shared. Are you guys? Do you need to go? Are you happy? OK. I’ll, I’ll share it so a little while ago. So this, this podcast is hard if I haven’t made that clear, like, like there’s so much information that I’m drinking from a fire hose and then trying to put it into a format. I love the research part of it, but the part that makes my brain like literally hurt is um trying to put it in an outline and, and figure out how to share, you know. So I had one of my episodes that I was working on that just was making my brain hurt. And I, and I just, I’m always praying like God, can you make me smarter? Can you send someone who’s really good at organizing it to, to like, help me? You know, I always, and this one morning that I was struggling and I always have a deadline and, and I just felt inspired that I should go for my run. And so I was like, ok, because, you know, every minute of the day is, yeah, you know, like right now I’m in the middle of harvesting, I’ve made gallons of jam and food. I’m like, should I be doing this or should I be doing, you know, or should I be running right now or should I be catching up on laundry or, you know how it is as a mom? Right? And, and I’m adding a podcast into the mix, which is a full time job. So anyway, I just, I’m always like, God, tell me what to do right now and I’ll do it and it be enough to get it all done. So anyway, so I was told to go for a run and I was out running and I was just feeling overwhelmed, like, w whichever episode it was, I’ll have to remember. But I was like, I’m not smart enough to format this. Like, I have all of this information, but I wanna share, I’m feeling that again now with the episode I’m working on right now at the um response about the novel Expositor, which is, is going to come out before this one airs. But I’m kind of in that place where I have all of this information. I’m so excited to share. But how do I get it in a format that can make sense, you know. So, anyway, I was out running and I just was kind of like praying for help and I can’t remember exactly what happened. But I just, um, ah, hey, I’m gonna share something that if people wanna think I’m crazy, that’s ok. But I just had this, um, I guess I could say voice or this presence that I recognized that has helped me a lot. And I know this will sound crazy but it really was, um, it was Emma, it was Emma Smith and I knew her presence so well because when, um, when I lost my little girls, that was a presence, I felt often that sustained me. And I thought, like I knew that Emma helped me get through that because I knew that she suffered losing Children much more than I did. And she made it, you know, like, so I knew I would, I just didn’t have it connected that that presence was, was her. And I had felt that presence often with promptings or leading me to things or giving me questions to ask or, you know, like I, and I was like, 00, and so I started to kind of talk to Emma and it was this beautiful, you know, I was like, can you help me do this? And, and you know, I kind of was asking like, can you solve this? Can you tell me what to find so I can prove that Joseph, it was almost this kind of like I fought this my entire life and I couldn’t solve it. So it’s your turn now, you know, like, but also this deep sense of gratitude of thank you for helping, for keeping, you know, like speaking out for us. And um and then I, then I was, and then my um great, great grandmother who was the 17 year old who was given away, who had all of her Children taken away when she was kicked out by her, you know, anyway, her presence and I’ve known her because she has led me to things and, you know, like I have had and she was all of a sudden there and I was just like, um so um just overwhelmed by the women because I also, it was one of my, also, we’ve talked a little bit heather about the experiences we’ve had with Heavenly Mother. You know, and I just felt this like, like I was kind of asking, can I ask who my helpers are? And it was women, it was just these women and, and this awareness, the best, the best way I have was like, I’m on the girls team. Like it was just joy and excitement that, you know, this is like the the mission, the errand of women. I don’t think it’s exclusive. I’m so thankful that men are involved, but I just felt this connection and then um all of a sudden, like my two little girls were just in my heart overwhelming me like they were so there I was like, and I have felt their help so much and I also, I should say it like be commiserated and you guys will understand this because I think gather you have five boys, at least you have six boys and I have seven boys and I have, I, you know, I have some hard, hard boys and my girls generally haven’t been as hard. And um and I really have struggled with losing my girls, you know, because I really wanted to have my two little girls and, but all of a sudden I was so aware that like they were part of this, like my girls needed to be helping from the other side. On the girls team in this work of women that, that I feel called to, that we’re all called to. And so I do feel like I just, it was this profound testimony that actually gave me a new insight and a new appreciation for being able to um not have my girls with me the way I would choose to, but that they are so involved in this. And I do, I love that you brought up President Nelson telling the women to step into, you know, step into our stewardship, use our voices. And I do feel like this, the um gentleness and meekness and charity and love that we can speak about this with and that we have, I know for a fact that we have helpers on both sides of the veil in mass, helping bring this truth forward. And I hope, I hope that in our um communities, I don’t, I don’t ever wanna tell our church leaders what to do, but I do feel so strongly this hope that the voices of women will be heard will be given, given a platform, get elevated, be taken, you know, like it’s sad that women aren’t allowed to share revelations. Do you know, like, like our voices aren’t taken quite as seriously. And so I’m hoping that this can be an opportunity to help your voices be heard. And, and anyway, I just, I feel like there is something beautiful about this specific women’s work that is exciting to be part of. So we’re on the girl team.

[2:03:27] Heather: Yeah, can I, can I actually share something that reminded me? I loved what you shared about women from both sides of the veil. Um So this is something that my, that my sister in law sent to me. And it’s a quote from Emily Bell Freeman and it says she says chess has three parts, the opening, the middle, the middle game and the end game, the opening is the development of the pieces. The setting up of the strategy, the middle game is the implementation of that strategy. The end game is where the strategy comes to fruition. You are the closing trap. The queen is the most powerful piece on the board and it is conventional chess wisdom that you postpone playing your queen for as long as you can, the longer you can delay developing your queen, the more likely you will have your most powerful piece for the end game. The Lord is the master strategist and knows exactly how to win. So I don’t, I love, I love that. OK, I think I really think that women stepping into their places is um what’s the word is so important? And so I’m, I’m so grateful that you shared your experience and sing with you, Lisa. I, I, I’ve really appreciated this.

[2:04:43] Michelle: This has been such an incredible conversation. I, I hope I, I know, well, I don’t even need to hope. I know that people will be deeply impacted by it. I am so thankful to both of you for just your goodness and your open hearted seeking and your courage and willingness to be vulnerable. I think many, many people will be blessed and helped and hopefully, hopefully our leaders will be willing to listen to this episode in particular, to be able to, you know, I think that the more people that can understand this, the more compassionate and and helpful, everybody can be on this topic and in our journey as well, brothers and sisters in the church and just in, in life in general. So uh is there anything else you wanna share? Are we good?

[2:05:33] Lisa: I just wanna simply end like for me, um I, my favorite scripture is and the truth shall set you free like we are free from this false doctrine of polygamy and I could not be happier no longer. Will I be bound down by these awful chains? Never again.

[2:05:55] Michelle: Oh my gosh. What perfect ending words. Thank you so much. OK. Have a beautiful day with all of your babies. Give them all a big huge hug and kiss from all of us and tell them thank you and your husbands as well and thank you so much. I hope to get to talk. I will get to talk to you again.

[2:06:13] Heather: Thank you Michelle.

[2:06:14] Michelle: Thank you Michelle. I want to again sincerely thank Lisa and Heather for coming and having this conversation with me. I, I hope you understand why I just love these women. I hope you fell in love with them just as much as I did. Um I again want to encourage others to share their stories. If other of you have stories like these, please feel free to reach out to me and share. I think that this is an important aspect to continue to look into. So I would love to keep bringing episodes like this as well. So thank you so much for joining us again. Please share this episode and I will see you next time for part two of the Novo Expositor.