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Polygamy is a topic that definitely seems to have the ability to bring out the worst in people. Polygamy and lying absolutely go together They have from the beginning, and sadly, they apparently still do today.
This podcast is necessary to set the record straight, and to reveal who has integrity and values truth, and who deals in lies. Also, who has the courage of their convictions and is not only willing, but eager to engage, and who has to resort to name-calling, avoiding engagement, and outright lying in order to try to defend their perspective.
I hope it will be instructive.
Transcript
[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 problems revisiting Mormon polygamy where we explore the scriptural and theological case for plural marriage. This is episode 74 which is an interesting one. I always do recommend that people listen to these episodes from the beginning because that’s where the important information is. And that’s how you can best understand what this podcast is about and how we’ve gotten where we are. And so this episode is another one that I absolutely did not plan to do the, the episodes I have planned keep getting pushed back because other things come up that I have to respond to. And unfortunately, I have to make this episode today to respond to some things that are happening. And so I hope that you will find it useful and instructive. I think you will definitely find it informative and probably very interesting and maybe maddening. So we’ll see how it goes. But thank you so much for joining us as we take this deep dive into the murky waters of people lying. OK. Welcome to this episode. I’m sure you will notice that everything is a little bit different today. The video is backward and the camera is different. And so it’s, I’m a little discombobulated. It’s because I’m using a different program and a different camera in order to present the information that I need to present to you today. So I’ve told you before, I’m not, I’m, I’m, I’m like, embarrassingly un techie. So this has been quite a stretch for me to learn new technology, but it’s very good for me, I’m sure. But the reason I am doing this is because I have to respond to some things that have been happening in the last few weeks. I have to let you know the insanity that I have been dealing with the last few weeks that I would like to just ignore or deal with privately. But since it’s been made so public and since outright blatant lies have been told and are being told, I need to clear the air. I, I hate to get into anything that feels like drama or gossip or tit for tat. I don’t like that. I would much rather just deal with things directly head on with people rather than publicizing them. But at the same time, there comes a point when you have to tell the truth, right? And I think there is going to be, I, I think that there’s a constructive lesson to learn here about um how willing people are to just lie about people. You know, that’s something that we can really keep in mind as we are studying the topics we’re studying of polygamy and Joseph’s polygamy. And so if, for those of you who don’t know what I’m talking about, I apologize to waste your time with this, but I actually think it isn’t a waste of time because it is useful and it’s important to know what the situation is and what the cost is to try to speak things that you believe to be true. Right. And, um, and for those who do know, well, anyway, I’ll, I’ll give you a quick introduction. So I’ll give a little bit of history. I’m gonna let someone else give you some of the history in a second. But um in my last episode with Jeremy, I should say Jeremy is still coming on. He, he still needs a little more time to get ready. So I’m really excited for his episodes um on William Clayton and then where we’re going to go from there, so much important information and I have so much information to share. So I really hate being backtracked by dealing with these issues. So, um so I apologize for that, but at the same time, like I said, I think that there’s value here. So, um this, we, we spoke about how within like 12 hours, 8 to 12 hours, two different podcasts came out talking about well hitting at polygamy Deniers as they call us, right? And so so um I with a lot of prayer and a lot of direction and a lot of courage and a lot of kindness I will say made a response video to those episodes. And boy did I step in it when I did that? Because I I my whole purpose for doing that video. It’s uh one polygamy denier’s response is the title of it. My whole purpose was to try to start a dialogue, to try to engage people who know me, know that I to a fault like to talk about things. I like to discuss things I like to engage. I feel like so much value comes from sincere honest discussion. That’s how we learn so much more and being able to truly understand how other people think even when we disagree with them and let them understand how you think. And usually you realize, well, there’s a lot, a lot more that we agree on than I thought. And oh, I’m having to shed some of those ideas or clarify something, you know, you just learn a lot more when you engage. So that’s what I was hoping to accomplish. And so immediately after I did that video, I reached out and tried to set up an opportunity to engage. And boy, has it been an interesting ride since there? So that’s what, that’s what I’m wanting to share. Um specifically, it’s Bill Real and RFMRFM stands for Radio Free Mormon. And he’s the one, well, Bill has made one video, but RFM has made two videos directly at me that um have been amazing astounding to see like it’s incredible that this is what passes for. Well, anyway, we’re going to get into it a little bit more, but I do want to say that RFM, he does, he is very respectful and um wants to show me due respect. So calls me MS Stone, which, which, you know, I’m sure I should appreciate. So I’m going to return the favor and refer to him as Mr Mormon RFM stands for Radio Free Mormon. So Mr Mormon is who I am talking about today, who made these videos and there are a lot of things in these videos that I have to talk about. I won’t be able to cover all of the misrepresentations and falsehoods. But um and I’m going to do this part today to just talk about one giant lie that was in his latest video throughout. And then I will do a part two talking about several of the other lies that have been representations, just dishonest engagement and flat out lies that have been in his videos. And I’m hoping that people watching will get a sense for like who values and cares about truth and who has integrity and who really likes to engage and talk and talk about ideas and who actually is afraid to engage and defend their ideas and instead has to misrepresent things and do all kinds of weird shenanigans I think, remember I’ve said before that with a lot of people, their accusations are actually their confessions and I think that that holds true in this situation as well. So, like I said, I, I it is gonna be a slog and we’re gonna go through a lot of sites because I have to lay out all of the evidence and let you guys know exactly what has been going on. So I apologize if this is not your cup of tea, but I do think that there’s value in it and I think that we’ll all learn some things and, and also hopefully set the record straight which my hope is my desire here is not at all to well to do what’s been done to me to try to shame, to try to demean to try to, I, I don’t know, label anything like that. My goal still is to open engagement. I have to set the record straight here and call things out that just are not true and are not cool, you know. But my hope is that eventually we could end up at friends as, as friends and have some good engagement. Maybe that’s a pipe dream. I am optimistic to a fault. So, um but I’m hopeful, I’m hopeful. So I’m going to start out letting you know, like I said, this episode is just going to deal with one big lie and then I’ll do part two that will deal with many of the other things and clarify things and that one will actually be a lot more fun and a lot more interesting and will be extremely instructive about these topics of polygamy and specifically Joseph’s polygamy because there’s a lot of it’s so easy, like RF Mr Mormon repeatedly says that he’s not wearing lenses, which is hysterically like just so it’s just lacking um self awareness, right? Because if you know anything about perception or any of the brain science, you know, that you have to have perspective in order to even see the world. And so anyway, so that’s, that’s what we’re going to address in the second video. I’m going to go ahead and play a clip from um Mr Mormon’s last video at me and I’ll let him kind of set up the history. So here, let me, let me share my slides. This is my slide show I made. So um I’m really, really going above and beyond this time. So here is Mr Mormon telling us the history,
[08:24] Radio Free Mormon: but there is a small subset, although perhaps even a growing subset of Mormons within the church and some of them outside the church who are nevertheless maintaining the minority position. And indeed, what I would consider to be the conspiracy theorist position that Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy that all the evidence that appears to show that he practiced polygamy is really not evidence at all. These are all the machinations of Brigham Young and ill designing people who wanted to paint Joseph Smith with this polygamy brush. In order to either support their own practice of polygamy or just to defame Joseph Smith, there were a lot of comments that were made to that episode. And then some time after that episode aired one of the most prominent polygamy deniers Michelle Stone posted a response video of about 2.5 hours in which she attempted to respond to the evidence that we set forth that ended up in my issuing a podcast one week ago explaining why it was that I felt that MS Stone’s response to our evidence was not persuasive to me personally. Well, that led to a six minute video by Michelle Stone later that same evening of last Sunday in which instead of addressing the evidence I brought forward and addressing the reasons that I did not find her arguments, persuasive, she engaged in a six minute emotional podcast, which was largely based upon ad hominem that I was dishonest in my response to her that I had misquoted her that I had intentionally or unintentionally misunderstood her arguments. I took that six minute video from MS Stone and posted it on my own Facebook page so that people who follow me there could listen to what she had to say and weigh that in the balance.
[10:09] Michelle: OK. So there he was setting up the background, right? So you kind of have an idea of where we are. This is Mr Mormon that you’re listening to in his second video directed at me and I have to say I was going to save this for next week, but it just strikes me. There are so many things in that clip, even just that clip alone that I want to respond to. But, um, I’ll save some of them for next week, but I do find it bizarre and fascinating possibly concerning. He is remarkably obsessed with the length of my videos which is weird all throughout both of his videos. He talks nonstop about the length of my videos. He never refers to the length of his videos only mine. And I’m left wondering if this is like just a symptom, a more generalized obsession with the length of things or if it’s just expressly about my videos, I don’t know. So that’s a question for him to consider, but I think that that he did a good job of getting us caught up from where we are. And so now I will go on and let him make the claim that I am doing this video to respond to.
[11:14] Radio Free Mormon: Now behind the scenes, Bill Real has been working with MS Stone and communicating with her and two other prominent polygamy deniers in order to see if they will come onto the show of Mormonism live and talk about their theories and we can talk about why it is that we do not think that their theories hold water, but as of yet, as of yet they do not want to be seen in a forum where it is live. They have to speak to people who do not agree with them and be held to account for the logic or ill logic of their own position. Instead right now, what they want to do is have a behind the scenes back and forth in writing. But what we want to do is simply meet in a public forum on Mormonism live and have a discussion about the issues. This is something that they do not seem to want to do. At least not as of now. I hope they will change their mind and come on the show because right now it’s starting to look like they do not have the courage of their own convictions. They are not confident that their position will win the day and therefore they are hemming and hawing and refusing to come on the show to answer for their positions.
[12:21] Michelle: Ok? So there it is that is the accusation that he makes repeatedly through this video. He does break in with a little caveat that’ll play closer to the end that he thinks fixes it. But it also is just another lie. So we’re going to go ahead and go over the history of my interactions with Bill Real and RFM to show the truth or the falsehood of what he’s claiming here. So we’ll go back and start the history the day after both of those videos came out, I posted this, which I thought was quite funny and I was a little bit proud of myself for creating my own meme. Um I posted this in a group called Hemlock Knots and talked about both of those videos being made the same day and how they are like we’re making enough of a, of a wave, I guess that they are feeling the need to respond to us. And I think that the more that people look into the short comings of the polygamy narrative, it will be in full retreat. So I posted this and I do want to quickly, as I said before, make it clear that this, this this thing I’m addressing today is by far is not the only thing that needs to be addressed in these videos. It’s just the only thing I could manage in this one episode. So please stick around and stay tuned for part two. I will get that out as quickly as I can. So, um ok, anyway, this is, this is what I posted on June 9th and the um Bill Reel commented on it, right? And he said, I absolutely welcome a show where we flesh out which conclusion has better evidence and is more reasonable. Anyone willing to test their con concepts and rational thinking. So I thought that was pretty good. Um The next day, let’s see. Um This was my first response um responding to him saying, hey, here, here’s a video where we talk about it. This is the one where we started to talk about it. But then I’m sorry, I’m, I’m having to use paper with my notes because I’m using my computer to record on. So this is going to be a little, I’m going to do my best stick with me. So then I responded a second time and shared my response video and said, hey, here’s my first Salvo. I hope this leads to more productive conversation, right? I posted this to I tagged him on it as you can see and said, I would love to, I would be happy to have a live conversation on your platform or mine. And um he responded and said, let’s do it. We’ll have a conversation. That’s great. He told me that he listened to it. So I thought, OK, great. This will be good. And um I did invite him from the very beginning on my platform, which I think would be great if he and Mr Morman would come on, we’ll see how that goes. I’ll, we’ll continue to talk about it as we go forward. So we’re just going to go through this, this first exchanges were on Facebook in the group Hemlock Knots. And so I, you know, I did clarify, I haven’t been in the Joseph discussion that long. I feel very comfortable in the scriptures and discussing polygamy. Joseph’s polygamy is a humongous topic. There’s so much to read and I don’t know if anyone ever feels fully competent, but I still feel like I am just drinking out of a fire hose trying to get the information as fast as I could. So anyway, I again ask him to come on my show as well. I thought it would be great to do it back and forth and he asks me to private message him with my email so that we can get an outline and get ready to get going, which I do here. It is, this is my private message to him, giving him my email address. And so you can see I from every step along the way, have been the one reaching out saying, hey, let’s do this. Let’s have a conversation. Come on my podcast, we’ll talk about it. I’ll come on your podcast, we’ll talk about it. So then I a few days later got an email. I hope you guys can read this. Let me see which slide I bought on my paper. And so I’m going to read the first paragraph. It’s, oh, and I will say Jeremy Hoop also reached out to Bill and also offered to come on. And so both of us were um were, were very, very willing. And so he says Jeremy and Michelle, I am excited that you both have expressed interest in a collaboration episode. So you can see we expressed interest, right? I am hoping to have both of you participate. I have also included radio, free Mormon and Mavin to plan this out. So you can see from right there from the very first email Mr Mormon is included. So he’s in, he’s should be up on all of these emails because he’s been included on every single email in this thread. And so this goes on to talk about what he wants to do the things he wants to address and gives a little bit more information about it. And, um, and then he asks, what are the main fact factors that we would like to discuss? And I want to go back, I, I should have pointed out in the, in this message he wants to know, oh, I guess it’s not in this one, but he, he basically, maybe it was in the Facebook one. He wants to make sure I’m comfortable that I know everything that they’re going to address. So I won’t get caught off guard, which I’m sure is very kind of him, but that’s how he, how he talks about it. So, some of his points. Well, well, you can go back and look at that slide. He wanted to talk about land deeds and the affidavits about 132. Um Hiram at the city council meeting. Um I do want to point out here that when he, when he sent us this list and asked for our list. Um Wh II I in just a little while I add Whitney to this chain because I had already talked to her about coming on Whitney Horning who is also quite expert in these topics and has been studying for them for a long time. And so I thought the three of us would make a great team to talk about these things. And, um, and from what, what, what was it I was going to say? 00, that’s what it is. All three of us are extremely busy. I’m right now recording this at midnight because it’s the only chance I can get. I, you know, I have a full family of kids. I do a lot. And so trying to fit this in is about my max. Right. Jeremy also has an extremely full life as does Whitney as do, I’m sure most people, but we’re not necessarily at the beck and call of everyone to say, give me information, give me information, right? As they demand it, we still do. But I just, I just wanted to point that out. So he immediately wants to share information for our sake, but he wants to get all of our information as well. There’s a lot of information out there. Whitney’s written three books. I have plenty of podcast episodes and Jeremy has done a talk has come on, even if they just watched Jeremy’s episodes on my podcast, right? There’s plenty of ways to do research and get information and we’re happy to give what we can. So anyway, is me responding again saying I, I add Whitney to the conversation and I give my general outline. I say we are thinking that the way to make this discussion the most productive of worthwhile is if we can take about 20 to 30 minutes to lay out a basic case. So everyone has some points of reference, some point of reference to work from. Then we can spend the rest of the time with you guys poking holes in and asking your question, poking holes in it and asking your questions, including those you listed and see where the discussion leads. Does that good to you? I thought that sounded really reasonable, right? And then, um, and then let’s see. Oh, and if you would like me to send a brief outline of the case that we would like to take, take the 1st 20 to 30 minutes to, to make, let me know. And, um, and then I immediately start asking, is there a day and time that I’d like to get it on the calendar and tell them that we are good starting any time in July. So we are making ourselves as available as possible and saying, let’s get this going, let’s do it right. There’s no hesitation on my end. Then, um, he responds and he wants to make sure we’re all in agreement on the issues. He wants it to be on his Mormonism live show. He says, and he agrees to the format I said, but he, um, the, you know, that we would take the first little while and then they could ask questions the rest of the time, but he still doesn’t set a date. And, um, he, he wants to make sure that Whitney and Jeremy and I are all on the same page. So they’re not like arguing different fronts, which I totally get, I tell them we’re all on the same page. We agree to do it on M Meli Live. And again, ask for a date. I suggest July 12th. Obviously, I’m really, really hesitant to go on. Right. And then, um, the next day he again claims, let’s see. Where is it? There? It is. Um, oh, yeah. So he lets me know what, um, what the venue is going to be, but he still doesn’t give a date. And he asks me to send him my outline, my outline for the opening, which is just fine. But then he asks me to start sending him information on land deeds. He says that he is doing extensive research on land deeds, but he is apparently unable to find them or look them up for himself, which I find interesting. You know, I, I think that, well, I should, I was probably going to say it later on, but I’ll just say now it’s really weird. I’ve done a lot of interviews, I’ve had a lot of interviews and usually you just set up an interview, right? And if it’s going to be more something you need to be, um, informed about. Like, a lot of times I’ll read people’s books before I interview them or I’ll watch a lot of video of them. Um, I usually do that when I have someone on, um, some, you know, and then you just want to hear what they have to say. I haven’t had many interviews when there’s a lot of back and forth beforehand. Brian Hall was my one exception and that was odd. Right. And so this is not normal for my experience to have it be like, hey, give me all your information, give me all your information. Like that’s just, that strikes me as very strange. We’ll come on and have a conversation. That’s great. We are busy, we’ve got stuff going on, let’s schedule a conversation so I can ask him for a date and then, um, he sends another video the next day and again, claims he doesn’t want us to be caught, caught off guard. I will say we’re not terribly worried, Jeremy Whitney and I do our homework. We do a lot of research, we do our best to make sure we know our stuff. So we’re prepared. I know that in my response video, I didn’t do the best job um, on all of the, um hitting on all of the responses. I, I probably should have slowed down, done one video for each or something. I was just trying to respond. And so anyway. But in general, like, I think that we will be very prepared to go into this setting and be able to hold our own. We’re not terribly worried about it. But if anyone wants to pause and read this message, it is a little bit strange. He’s basically asserting that he unlike us understands how critical thinking works and that his take on the land deeds according to. I’m sorry, he’s just like ridiculously arbitrary and extremely biased reasoning and calculations. I will possibly do an episode just on Landy’s at some point. It might just be blended in with anything, everything else because I don’t know that it deserves its entire episode. We’ll talk about him just a little bit today. I just don’t think he ha he thinks he calls it the smoking gun. I think it’s relatively silly. So anyway, he says that it’s a significant hurdle and I want you to be prepared for it. This is a significant hurdle. He repeats, but it is not only the only significant hurdle and he goes on to, again, restate his points, but now an expanded list of points and, and I’m not sure why, what, what he’s doing other than asserting right from the start that he’s right. And we don’t have a leg to stand on again. This is strange. We’re trying to schedule a conversation, let’s schedule a conversation and then we can have the conversation, right. And so, um, then in this, in this um email. He also accuses me of motivated reasoning, saying that he does that he doesn’t care if it started with Joseph or with Brigham. I am unconvinced. I think that people can be quite blind to their own motivated reasoning and their own desires to, you know, there’s, there’s a lot built on having Joseph be a bad guy for a lot of people. And so I’m not necessarily convinced. And then he says this, that it sounds like an interesting testimony. This sounds like something that could come out of testimony meeting, but kind of in reverse. He says, I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that Mormonism in any of its variations isn’t true either way. And that my regardless wasn’t a legit prophet anyway. RFM and Maven too, I believe, I think he means that they feel that same way. So it was just interesting to hear him say, I don’t have any bias. I don’t have any motivation and then basically bear his testimony to me about the church not being true, you know. And so, um and you know, I don’t have a problem with that. I think that’s great. I actually want people to be able to separate a separate out the question of Joseph’s polygamy from the implications of what that might mean. Because I think all of the implications get in the way and cloud people’s vision. I think it’s much better if we can just look at it in a vacuum and say, OK, how like where does the evidence lead? I, that’s really what, what I have done, what I’ve tried to do. So anyway, and then he again, sends us another expanded list of topics and then he ends with what are the barriers that we need to overcome? He asks me that and then he says, I hope this helps you guys prepare. So, so I think what he’s saying is, please, please please help me prepare. Right? That’s how it, that’s how it sounded with me and you know, I think that’s great. I appreciate him laying his cards out. I’ve tried to do the same thing. I, I this is strange. So, um, I, I don’t have time to put into rehashing all of my points for Bill at this point, I’m doing my episodes and when we come closer to the date, when we even have a date set, um, then we will start out, you know, Jeremy and Whitney and I will get together and start outlining our case, but we’re not ready to like send it to him. And besides, that’s weird. It’s weird to ask someone coming on your show to tell them everything that you’re going to, that you’re going to say, um, did I get my II? I might be getting it next step because it’s so late but, but you don’t ask them to tell you everything they’re going to say so that you can be sure and have the best way to crush their arguments before they even come on. Like it’s just, it felt really, really odd. And so anyway, but he does at least finally send a date. And so he gives us some possible dates in his next message and we agree to a date that works for everyone and it’s set. And, um, let’s see, I send him my outline that we, you know, to, to help them prepare is just a very basic outline. But those are the points that we’re going to cover. And I think that, you know, we’re set, we should be good to go. So it goes on from there because little did I know that right after he sent this last email, he did his first post in Hemlock Knots. This is the group and you know, a little bit of a um oh, what’s the word? A spoiler? A spoiler alert? I think he ended up posting 10 times, nine or 10 times in five days in Hemlock Knots. It was like la la, you know, it was, it was, it was very interesting to watch. So again, I totally, this is not to in any way shame. I’m just trying to let people know the experience from my end. I totally get being hyper focused on something be really tense about it. I don’t think I would go about it this way. I didn’t really like this. It seemed weird to a lot of people, but you know, this is how he did it. That’s ok. I’m just telling you the experience from our end and what we are trying to do because I’ve been accused publicly of being afraid to defend my views and unwilling to come on and have a conversation. So this was his first email and he again goes on about, you can read through this, just see his mouth, math calculations that I think are really laughable. It’s, it’s just interesting. And he again claims rational thinking requires you to agree with me basically is what he’s saying. He just keep from the very beginning is like I’m right and I’m right. And you have to all say I’m right. It’s, it’s really interesting. He also linked his um the Xo Reddit post where he’s asking for help. And so um continuing on, like I said, there were, there were lots of um there were lots of posts um in the next five days and this, I’m including this. Oh I didn’t get her permission. I’ll have to reach out and see if I can. But um she, this comment was very representative of how a lot of people in those groups felt with this barrage of demands for information. She said, you’re the one claiming the land deeds are proof of polygamy. So you do your own research and share it here, please. Um I see a pattern with your side and having us do the research for you then using it to rebut. Yes. Exactly. That’s exactly what I felt he’s saying. Tell me everything you’re gonna say so that he can know that he’s got the best rebuttal and his pocket. And I don’t necessarily mind that, but let’s just engage, let’s not try and do this. Tell me all of your moves so that I can be prepared to defeat you. And so anyway, I didn’t, I didn’t think that this was a very, in a very helpful tactic that he started to use and people called it off right from the beginning. And so, um then, and also I will say that part of the reason she said that is because this, she said she made that comment later on in his post. And part of the reason was because there was such a pattern of bill being unwilling to engage. It was just, I’m right. And then if you would say anything, he would either ignore you or he usually ignored, he often dismissed or he would just come back and say and say, I’m right, basically, I’m right in whatever different words. And so it was, it was, it was really off putting to a lot of people, shall I say? And so anyway, here’s his next post an hour later, still before I even had a chance to respond to his email. And um and yet another, it hasn’t yet another expanded list of challenges. And then a little while after that, um, he posts again. Um, let’s see. Did I, did I skip, did I skip one? He posts again? Still expecting me to find his deeds, which is the main subject he has researched. So, yes. Oh, this is his email where he’s again asking me to give him, like to help him know how to find deeds, which I find interesting, but sure I’ll help you out. Bill. There’s how you can find deeds like, ok, so I send that, but he doesn’t seem to get it because then um oh, the next thing I know this was interesting the next morning he posted this in Hemlock Knots and it’s the link to Mr M Mormon’s first video of me which I’m sorry, he’ll call this an ad hominem and it maybe it is. But to me, it’s just an observation and I will do another video responding to it because I thought that people could just find all of the misrepresentations and falsehoods themselves. But apparently most of his listeners didn’t actually listen to my podcast. They just listened to his version of it and took that for the truth. So I thought that this was like super slimy lawyer style response to my, to my video. So I’ll respond to that more in a few minutes, but this is where I first found it. So now keep in mind I am in contact with Bill and Mr Mormon planning to go on their show I’ve agreed to go their show. We actually have a date and I start getting hit with. Give me this, give me this, give me this and then this super slimy video made about me this. It’s so weird and like unprofessional and just rude to, to do that when you have someone who’s agreed to come on your podcast, like wait and have the conversation. This was really weird. It, it’s not usually how things are done. It just left me asking like what in the world. And so then, um there’s another post from Bill accusing me of not being able or willing to do my own research, which was very ironic since he was posting this, asking people to help him do his research while he was also posting in Reddit, asking people to help him do his research. So that was an interesting little demeaning thing to say. Apparently, even though I’d already emailed him my source for deeds, he still couldn’t find them. So he came on again with a challenge and then he posted again his second post that day after. And I had been commenting on his post on his posts, not, not a ton but enough. And he had been consistently ignoring my comments. And by this time, I’m not the only one. It started to feel kind of like a toddler. Like no, no, no, talk about deeds now give me deeds now. No, no, I want you to talk about this and it’s like, dude, like I have a life and I’m not here at your beck and call and lay off, lay off. So again, people’s personalities are different. That was just my experience and the experience of many people in this group. But those people didn’t even know what was going on on email. And so anyway, we’ll continue on from there. And let’s see. Oh, this was one of my responses. I won’t torture you, reading all of my responses to try to satisfy him. But um this is just one representative sample. I had already spent more time than I wanted to, more time than I had. Um explaining why I didn’t find his argument about deeds at all convincing and many other people had also engaged and just given excellent responses which he continually and repeatedly ignored. So this was one of mine. I just explain, I’ll just kind of recap it. I explained that if he wants to claim that deeds equal marriage, he must explain why deeds were given to non wives, to women who never were claimed as wives. And then he must explain why the reason for those deeds couldn’t also apply to the deeds given to women who decades later were claimed to be his wives. And so I also explained that it’s circular reasoning to arbitrarily limit the evidence based on the assumption he is trying to prove, in order to prove his assumption, he claims we should only look at deeds during 1842 and 1843 because that’s when he claims plural, plural, plural, Joseph’s plural marriages were in full force. And so that’s when we would find deeds that would be evidenced. It’s a plural marriage. Someone, oh, I forgot to put someone, someone made a brilliant comment about that. It’s basically like, hey, guys, do me a favor. Don’t include any evidence that doesn’t prove my desired outcome. Ok? You know, so um these are some of the problems I find with this argument that I started to say, I go on to remind him that I’ve already given him the source for the deeds. And um he apparently can’t find. And I thank, thank him for acknowledging that his initial claim on his first podcast of 70 to 75% of the deeds already limited to the sampling that he wants to limit it to um was badly inflated even by his own skewed numbers. And he’s now admitting that it’s down to somewhere between 30 50% and that’s already anyway. So he’s already had to come down quite a bit from his initial claim. And then the next comment is his response to his continued claims that I won’t respond and won’t give an explanation for what he sees as irrefutable evidence. And so note, I had suggested explanations so well, I I the reason I included this is because he said that and um this commenter is saying no, she has given reasons and I like them and he comes on and goes and what was that reason? So he’s not even either not paying any attention to my comments and to my video which we will go on and see because I also provide potential reasons in the video that I did. And so he’s basically acknowledging that he doesn’t pay attention to anything that I or anybody else says, which becomes more and more apparent. So then, um, let’s see, what am I saying on this one? In the meantime, I went ahead and responded on his previous post of Mr Mormon’s first video and stating, you know, my surprise at how dishonest Mr Mormon had been and how badly he had ignored and misrepresented my arguments. I know that Mr Mormon takes issue with that and says it’s just an ad hominem. And so I will do another video explaining for those who need nations. Um And, and how I, I expressed how strange that was when we already had a scheduled discussion. I mean, seriously, that is so weird. And so, um, Bill commented and said that he thought RFM had been fair, which I thought was, um, you know, interesting. And, um, and that he also said that let’s see what was I going to say. Um, and that my arguments which Mr Mormon had distorted on the video that we will find out that Bill did not watch that he’s claimed my arguments were not good. So OK, Bill. Um Glad you even know what they were because you couldn’t like. You either didn’t watch my video or you didn’t pay any attention to it as we will see going forward. So here’s part of our conversation after several attempts to ask him questions specifically about the forged documents. That’s one of the big misrepresentations from one of the first ones in the video is Mr Morman completely ignores the point I’m making about forged or altered documents trying to make Joseph Smith look like a polygamist much more that, you know, trying to make him look more pro polygamy than he was. And they just, he completely ignored that point and misrepresented why I even only talked about one of the documents and, and made stupid reasons about why I even posted it. So anyway, so I start asking that and remember all of this is supposedly in an effort to help me get ready for a conversation. And so now all of a sudden it changes to be that he wants to sit down for a long private discussion. I’d welcome a one on one conversation for 3 to 4 hours. And so now I have to back up a little bit because I have to tell you from the very beginning of our interactions with this group. It’s been a little bit curious. So um Whitney Horning who is coming on this, who has agreed to come on this podcast with us. Actually, Maven reached out to her um before their first episode that they did on um on the Polygamy Deniers and she asked to have a private conversation and I know about it because Whitney was reaching out to me going, ok. This is really weird what’s going on. She felt like the story kept changing. It was interesting and then it ended with it being um Maven asking Whitney to have a phone conversation on Wednesday evening and Whitney already had a meeting scheduled because we had a meeting for things that we were talking about. And so she was not able to do that phone conversation that Mavin asked for on Wednesday evening. And lo and behold Wednesday evening is when they were doing their live show on Polygamy Deniers. So maybe we’re wrong, maybe something else was happening, but it certainly looked like Whitney was being set up to think she was just having a private phone call and have it be something very different. And so if I’m wrong, that would be great. I would love to know it. I have expressed these concerns and Navin or anybody else hasn’t said, oh no, this is what the misunderstanding was. So it’s hard to know. So when I already have this long standing pattern of bill not responding to my comments, like if he responded to a comment I made, it was basically along the lines, what felt to me of like I’m right. I’m right. You’re wrong. Say I’m right. Admit I’m right. Rather than talking about my, the points I was making or he would, if I would make a point, he wouldn’t respond to what you just say, but you still have to prove da da, da da. You know, like there was not, it did not feel conversational at all. And so, and now he’s asking for a private conversation. So for me, with the background I have and maybe some of it is mistaken. I don’t know, I would love to have it clarified, but I’m thinking, OK, why in the world would you have a private conversation not recorded before a podcast discussion? Why in the world would you do that? And all I could think of was they either are going to make a, like a secret recording that they can edit. Hopefully they wouldn’t do that but take notes misrepresent what I said, that’s a total possibility. Um go to their audience and say, hey, I’ve already talked to her and I’m not going to have her on the show because it’s just too stupid. I save you the time, right? Like use it as a way to bow out of the show or who knows, who knows what else. I just know I was like, what and, and, and best case scenario, even if it is with good intentions, which at this point, I don’t know that I can trust from my interactions with him, I feel like I’m just going to be like, talked down to like, like just say, I’m right. Say I’m right. Say I’m right. Just like he’s been doing, why do I want to go sit and have that happen, live in person when it’s already bad enough happening online? So basically, that’s what it is. And I ask him again, I’ve been asking, trying to get him to answer one simple point about like the fraudulent evidence that I showed and, and I’m trying to just narrow it down to that. Like, let’s not, you know, I’m just trying to him to answer this one question. And as a reminder, this is what I’m asking about. This is what I feel like. Um Mr Mormon badly represented. These are the pieces of evidence that I provided to show that they were fraudulently making Joseph Smith look like a polygamist when he wasn’t. The first one is the October 5th um alter journal entry. And then, then they now disappeared from the Joseph Smith’s papers under false pretenses which we have to get back, get to the bottom of the um the 1848 Hyrum Smith, I mean, Hyrum speech that um where he just desecrate told me, oh, I skipped. The first one is the peacemaker that maybe I already said that. And then the last one is the March 31st, 1844 letter to the Relief Society. All four of these are strong evidence of an attempt to paint Joseph Smith as a, as a polygamist. And they’ve all been either forged or altered and I think that that’s something worth responding do and they won’t respond to it. And so at least to that point they wouldn’t. And so I asked him again and he again says I would want to talk in real time so we can better understand each other and the chance to have a free morning this week again, like what is going on. And so I respond that I don’t know how that would be worthwhile when he’s refusing to respond to any of my points. But just please answer this one simple question like I’m asking him, this is probably the 10th time I’ve asked him. And so then he says, I’m unable to respond because you keep saying the evidence and I am hesitant to get bogged down when I’m unsure what you mean by the evidence. Well, I just showed what and, and I haven’t even used the evidence, but I’m saying the points I made, right? Like the, the, the things I showed that were the evidence of fraud. I didn’t use the word evidence. So I shouldn’t have used it now. But the pattern that we have of forging to make Joseph Smith look like a polygamist. And so I, he said that I had so I restated it to try to make it very clear. So there couldn’t be any misunderstanding, right? How do you, what, what are your feelings or how do you respond to these changed documents? And why do you refuse to talk about it? Why do you mire and why did RFM Mr Morman misrepresent the point I was making? And he said sweet. Was this in your response video to our video? Because I did not catch that. Can you state them here? I will research and get back to you and address. So again, this was one of the main points I made in my response video. It was one of the, it was probably the thing I spent the most time on and I’m supposed to believe that he watched this video, right? And he again just feels so entitled to have me do all his work for him. He’s like, oh great, give me all of those resources right here right now. So I don’t have to go look for them. And so I can pretend I watched your video and paid attention to it. I mean, maybe he had it playing in the background while he was doing something else. He certainly didn’t watch my video in a way that would make him at all able to respond. And so then I said, I was because I had asked him from the beginning, like if he honestly thought that Mr Mormon had honestly responded to my video and he said, yeah, I thought he did a good job as uh um you know, So I was like, I would love to understand how you can state that RFM, um addressed my points honestly and accurately when you didn’t watch my video. And he says that he watched several apart several times and he just found it to be really weak, apparently too weak to remember the solid points of that I made that I think need to be responded to. So we’ll go on from there and I know I told you that this was a slog. And so I apologize. But yeah, he did again ask to have a one on one discussion. And I have to say like, I don’t know, maybe you guys can tell me how you would feel about this. But I’m like, hey, I’ve agreed to have a recorded conversation. Let’s have a recorded conversation. Come on my podcast today tomorrow, let’s talk, but let’s do it in front of a camera, right? Let’s, let’s let the audience be on this investigative journey with us. I think that’s instructive and interesting for everybody. Why are we doing a private conversation? I don’t understand the point of that. It doesn’t feel safe to me. He says, like, like, so we can do something where we feel safe and no, that’s not how it feels to me. And so I asked him again, like, why should we do it in person? And I think that discussing online gives us a chance to really flesh out ideas and understand and be thoughtful about things. And so, um someone else chimed in and asked if he’d be willing to come on my podcast, which I think would be great. I’ve asked him that from the beginning. So I was like, yes, come on, I’ve already invited him. That would be great. I hope he so listen to this non committal answer. Um Yes, I don’t need her to come on mine. My hope was that we could record somewhere, um something that could be published in both in multiple places, her podcast and somewhere on our channel. So he already, when I invited him to come on mine, asked him to come on mine and asked to do a two part. He said that he would just record it on his and I could post it on mine which let me clarify is not the same on Mormonism Life. We have maven um choosing which comments to put up, choosing which cause to accept it’s bills and um and Mr Mormon’s venue, right? So they’re in charge like massive massive home court advantage. I’m I still was willing to go on, but I really think it would be great if they would show the same courage and integrity and come on mine. So I’m again issuing now this time a public invitation to Mr Mormon and Bill Real. Please, please come on my podcast and show all of the things that you think I’m getting wrong and let’s have a discussion I’ll come on yours as well. I think it would be great. So, instead of having this secret conversation, let’s do it in front of a camera perfectly willing to do that. And then, um, yeah, so he said he’s looking forward to having come on and then, um, Bill goes back to the previous discussion. Why would it be better? And he’s making his case. And he also says that he doesn’t want, you know, like in this group, it’s hard because sometimes a lot of people will join in the conversation. He just wants it to be one on one so we can really dig in. So I respond and like, ok, that would be great. I’d love to schedule it. I can fit it in. I’m talking about him coming on my podcast, right? I can fit it in any time before the August 2nd Mormonism live discussion. Like go ahead and come on and you can get all of your questions answered. And then I say for now we can switch over to messaging or email to continue the discussion. I was saying that so that there wouldn’t be 10 people jumping in to every point I am interested in engaging. And I mean, in having a live conversation on camera, not, not on camera, I do not understand the purpose of it does not feel safe to me. There’s not the trust there. So I’m again, perfectly willing to engage in the conversation. And again, no response. And so then we move on into another post instead of responding to me, he just posts again, again, asking to arbitrarily limit the pool of evidence to only the deeds that strengthen his claim, which a lot of people do find rather amusing. And then, um, um, there’s another comment. So I, I’m trying to let him know because he keeps saying, why won’t you agree to these deeds? And then, so I again, let him know the numbers are arbitrary if you go back and read some of his posts that I’ve said like how he’s just saying this is the population of a navoo half of it is female, half of it is Mormon half. And it’s like that, that’s not how it works. And there are so many problem. So anyway, I, I just don’t have a lot of respect for the, the problem for the equation. He’s trying to set up and then, you know, there are lots of other things going on here that I’m trying to help him understand that there have been many comments back and forth. But I do say again, if your claim is that deeds are evidence of marriage. You must explain all of the deeds to people that never claim to be married to Joseph. If deeds to women prove that he was married to them, you must at the very least explain the reasons for deeds given to women who never were never claimed his wives. And you must then prove why this reason for deeds does not apply to the women who were claimed to be his wives. I keep repeating this point because he’s never responded to it. He’s never acknowledged it at all. Right. And so then, oh, did I lose my? Maybe I turned too many pages. OK. And then I add to it that he must also explain why so many supposed wives, why so many of Joseph’s wives weren’t given deeds. Like, for example, none. Then Eliza Snow, Emily and Eliza Partridge, Mary Elizabeth Rollins Leitner, Almera Johnson, Zina Huntington. And that’s just to name a few like so many of Joseph’s very, very well known, supposed plural wives were never given land deeds. And I hate that term. Given land deeds, never purchased land deeds, right? So that’s another point of contention is they’re actually going against the historical record. Um, Bill and Mr Mormon by claiming that that even though there’s, there’s a purchase price attached, they’re claiming that no purchase was made. And, um, I think that they would need to provide better evidence for that when they’re just ignore, choosing to ignore the historical record when it’s useful to them. So anyway, that’s, um, there are a lot of, lot of other problems with the deeds and, um, for example, um, things we haven’t even gone into like deeds given a year or more before the supposed ceiling to Joseph Smith and, um, women who were legally married to someone else, being given a deed and being claimed to be a wife to Joseph Smith. Like there are lots of problems. This is just not, not the solid evidence that they want to claim it is. So I, you know, be happy to engage with all of that restate the points and see where it goes again. No response. And so then, um, oh, he does, he does have this response, which basically is just, I’m right. You’re wrong. You know, that’s kind of how it feels. That’s not how this problem works is what he says, no expla explanation as to why. When I’ve clearly explained my reasoning, time and time again, he, his, his claim is nobody who’s professional in statistics, who is, I think is what he means. Nobody who, oh, who is perfection. Profession is statistics is going to bite us on your end. Not exactly sure why he chose that wording. But I, I’m assuming that he just means everyone would agree with us. Well, we’ll see because I’ve been talking to some statisticians and mathematicians. So we’ll see, we’ll see about that. Right. And in the meantime, with his Reddit friends, he’s been looking for any possible connections for any other deeds in his chosen parameters. And um which leads to our next post, which is where he talks about the connections. It’s actually pretty funny to read through the significant ties to polygamy. The, the things that they come up with, I mean, this isn’t what it is, but it sounds very much like so and so’s dad’s friend’s uncle’s wife was sealed to Joseph or Hyrum after he was dead. Um It’s kind of a lot of it is along those lines. Like, it’s just so anyone wanting to claim that this is not desperate, motivated reasoning is up in the night, like nobody would look at this historical record and go, oh, I think these deeds must be evidence that Joseph was a polygamist. Like it’s really quite ridiculous. So anyway, I still tried, I still tried to engage no many, many times. I have responded by now saying the same thing. And um, let’s see. Oh, and he’s just, again, not responding, just saying I’m not choosing to see the predicament, right? And so, uh it gets tiring. Um, let’s see which slide I’m on. Oh, he’s big on the erroneous percentage that he has created. He goes into that in depth. I will go into that more at some point. It’s a lot to get through. And then I make my point again that there are so many different ways to argue this. Anyway, the and again, I, I, let’s see, was I going to read all of this? Oh, I’m just stating similar things again and again, no response. He starts a new thread where he tells me I’m making it all or nothing because normal deeds do not are, are not attached to is going on too. He’s never clarified the difference between a normal deed and a polygamy deed and how we’re supposed to know the difference. He’s, he’s building his assumption into his claims, right? Like deeds are about polygamy. So therefore, there are normal deeds and polygamy deeds when he has no way to separate them out, clarify them in any way. And so anyway, and so again, I think that it’s interesting that he can’t limit it to just the years that he expects to find the best, the highest percentage. And I also say, how do you explain the supposed wives who are not given deeds? Oh, let’s see. And, and you know, your, your goal is to prove causation. But that’s really tough when there isn’t even correlation. And I don’t know if it’s here that I say this. But another problem that he has, yeah, it was right here is that we claim that Joseph was marrying wives as early as what, what did we say? Fannie Alger is anywhere from 30 1833 to 1836. Some people claim anywhere in there. And then we claim that he started taking a lot of wives and 41. I think some claim before that. And so 41 why is that not included? And then also the really interesting thing is that Joseph was the trustee in trust, but after he was killed, the next trusty and trusts were also polygamists. So why would you not include the years? It’s like the polygamy problem went away as soon as Joseph Smith was dead. Is that what we’re claiming? So, anyway, there are just lots of problems to go into here. And so then we’ll go on and let’s see what’s next. Oh, and then there’s another email it looks like. And so this is, huh, this, um, the next day this email comes and two more podcasts, two more podcast response, right? And so, um, note in the middle it says out of the blue, if I understand correctly, Michelle, you are no longer seemingly interested in a recorded conversation. Ok? No idea where he got that. You guys, I have been showing you everything. I know. I’m probably boring you to tears, but you have to understand this that’s going on. He says I’m no longer interested in a recorded conversation. I have absolutely never said that I’ve been saying the whole time let’s have recorded conversations. Come on my podcast, I’ll come on yours. I’m not interested at all and let’s continue to engage online if you want all of our information. Fine. Let’s hash it out. I think that’s weird. I think it’s unprofessional. I think it’s really cowardly, but sure, let’s do it. But, um, he, so he takes from that or he twists it. I don’t know what’s going on here to say that I’m not interested in a recorded conversation. I respond immediately within two minutes and say I’m not uninterested. He said I was uninterested. That’s why I use the double negative. I’m not uninterested in recording an episode. I’ve been confused why you have wanted to do an in person discussion rather than ask and answer questions online or I should have added or just have a recorded conversation. Right. And so then he starts into, it takes significantly more time to type. Right? Is that what he says? Yeah. And there’s just too much problem to misunderstand each other. I think that we can really understand. And so he’s confused why I’m unwilling to and I, I didn’t have time to respond that evening, but I respond the next day, but I, I would have but then comes the next post, right? So this was, I think that same evening I believe, let me get to what slide I’m at yet the same afternoon. So even while he was saying, I’m not interested in coming in and why won’t I have a conversation? He’s already prepared his next video on this topic all about landing. So this is what’s so weird. Like he, like we’re talking to him, but he keeps, they both keep making videos about me while talking to me. That’s so bizarre. Like it really felt from the beginning like they were trying to poison the well and just because I’m like, no, let’s talk, I keep saying no, let’s talk. And so, um, but you know, good thing that there were no ad hominem attacks or anything like that in this video. You know, that’s the whole, the whole shtick is that we’re conspiracy theorists. So this was a, this was the slide from his video. So you can see how this one went as well. And by this point, Whitney has had enough and she responds for the first time on the email thread and so you can read what she said, she, what she’s referring to in the irony is that they’re claiming this conspiracy theory of all of these land deeds secretly given to wives, what a conspiracy theory that is. And yet they’re accusing us of being conspiracy theorists. She also made a really good point. She had just Whitney is like an amazing historian. She does so much work and she had gone to live, listen to the historian speak and she points out that he said historians act like it’s factual. We write like it’s factual, but we all speculate, we all have to speculate, right? And so I thought that was an interesting point that she made my favorite part of her email was her ps where she said not that it should matter. But I do believe that because throughout all of their videos, they are saying that we’re moon landing deniers, right? Which is, is very helpful and useful, right? And so she says not that it should matter, but I do believe that Neil Armstrong landed on the moon just as he said, he did to illustrate a point if Neil Armstrong, his wife and his brother had spent their entire lives denying that Neil had landed on the moon, stating that those who claimed he did, he had were lying. I would be inclined to, to investigate the matter more thoroughly and to believe and possibly to believe them based on what she found. Right? And so I thought that was brilliant also at this point because this has been going on and on. And Jeremy also, by this point had had enough and responded and I have to say he was remarkably calm and cool and collected for how frustrating all of this has been. And so he says, in part, when I first reached out, my question was, could we have a productive discussion, epithet and ad hominem free. And he goes on to say so far that has not been the case contempt and ridicule don’t tend to lead to a convivial atmosphere. He continues on to be very clear. We are not at all opposed or afraid if of any part of the discussion. And so I could not agree with him more. Exactly. We are not afraid to talk to you guys. Let’s just set it up and have the conversation because they keep trying to get our informa. Well, Bill, I have to say has kept trying to say, I wanna make sure you guys aren’t afraid to engage. So tell me all of the points you’re gonna bring up. Right? And so, um he responds about bills, guns. We believe we have a rational and ultimately, we believe superior response will let the audience decide. I love it. I could not agree more. I thought these were both excellent responses. And so Bill responds again, again, completely ignoring and failing to respond to the stated concerns about the demeaning tone of the three podcasts they have done so far. And instead, yet again, harping endlessly on deeds. It’s that toddler thing again, right? Deeds. I want the deeds. I want the deeds. And um as if there had been no response previously, again, I have responded multiple times. Um And many other people in Hemlock nods. Knots had given very insightful responses, but he continued to claim claim that nobody will respond. So it seems evident to me at this point that the only response he will acknowledge or recognize is as saying you’re right, Bill. We’re wrong. We completely agree with you and your ridiculous math that proves nothing other than your extreme. Extremely biased need to find evidence where no evidence exists. But um that’s, that’s apparently the only response that would be acceptable. So, um, let’s see. Then he again says we need to have a conversation, right? But again, a a private not recorded conversation. And so I try again to respond and make this point that the problem I see is that the interactions on Facebook don’t feel like a conversation, conversation generally implies a back and forth, right? Trying to understand each other. That’s not what’s been happening here. And um so I go on and talk a little bit more about that and then say, if we want to have a conversation, I say great if we want a debate, which is far less appealing because it does not create understanding and unity, which I believe is very possible. Even in a disagreement, then we should get a neutral space. Um some excellent moderators and acknowledge that that’s what we are doing. I’m still just saying, let’s do this. Let’s just go ahead and do it where none of us are afraid of a conversation. We would love to have a conversation. So that’s where we’re going to this point. And then his response is he again refuses to acknowledge what we’ve been saying. But again, just in this endless entitlement demands a private conversation. He’s not responding to anything that we are saying. So and then, you know, I respond again and 10 minutes later, there’s this post in him lock, not so, you know, apparently he’s just done talking about it. He’s saying the same thing, typing takes about 10 times longer as answering in voice and then asks for someone else to engage with him because I guess we’re just too much trouble. And so now instead of a recorded podcast at all, he apparently wants anyone to sit down for an extended one on one which at this point, I feel certain they will most likely take and cut down and misrepresent and use in any way to paint people in our camp as idiots and lunatics. Right. That’s, that’s been the pattern. So there’s not a lot of trust and I will know that in this, this exchange had, I think something like 218 comments and throughout it, he responds to almost all of them in writing, right? It didn’t lead to a this conversation. He’s very willing to engage in writing but not at all to honestly exchange, but to just like thoughtlessly bat everything away with responses, like not a question or a comment about evidence. He he sets up the parameters like you have to just give these kind of responses. So a lot of people made very good comments or shared resources for him to look at and his response probably over a dozen times. I didn’t count all of them but repeatedly, he says not a question or comment about evidence. He also says blah, blah, blah, stay on topic. This isn’t this isn’t staying on topic. Then he says multiple times, I’ve already addressed that or he says, please provide a source. He said that also probably over half a dozen times, even like demanding it, even when people posted things, he he would just demand include URL. So I can find these later. He said that to one of my friends. It’s just like, who do you think you are? Like, so it, it just started to feel on and on, like he’s willing to engage in conversation as long as he can completely control it. And that, that he’s allowed to say what each side is allowed to say. And, you know, again, he’s doing this all in writing, not in a private conversation. So I didn’t engage much in this post post because I was kind of like, I, I don’t see the point. I still am very much on for the conversation which I clarified, but um they continue to post. So I did actually respond. I did again respond, but this was on the email, um trying the direct approach. So let’s see. Did I skip ahead because he had posted another podcast? Yes, he had posted his next podcast about what he called the smoking. So I said, ok, I just watched your episode. How would you like to proceed? Because by this point, it is getting old to have them engaging with us. We’ve set up a time we’re engaging and they keep posting about us. That’s so slimy and sleazy and gross and it felt terrible. So I just was like direct. What do you want to do? How do you want to proceed? Like, are we going to have a conversation or not? Right. Are you coming on my show or am I coming on yours? Let’s do this. And so at that point. Mavin Chimes in and I, I don’t know what she’s been aware of what she hasn’t in terms of, um, if it’s just in the emails, if she’s seen Lock Knots, if she’s seen all of the videos that they’ve been making, I don’t know. But she sent a video and it was interesting. She was, um, you know, trying to bridge divides and say, ok, let’s start again. I’m just gonna talk in person. So there’s not as much room for misunderstanding. I mean, in on a video she was um pretty insulting and demeaning, but still it was fine because I appreciated the sentiment, which was basically like, we just wanna have good feelings. We wanna, if everyone can get together and discuss everything in depth, then the time on the podcast will be um will be really well spent because we’ll know what it’s all going to be about. I still think that that’s strange and silly, but she made a really good case for it and she was just saying, we don’t want there to be these bad feelings. We just want to be able to engage and have a good exchange. And so I was like, ok, I’m willing to take her for what she saying. Um Bill also responded, but Maven’s Maven’s response was helpful. So I respond to it and again, like being the eternal optimist, always giving people the benefit of the doubt. One of my friends said I’m too much like Joseph Smith. He always gave people the benefit of the doubt too often. I don’t know. We’ll see, we’ll see where this goes. But, um, I it was interesting because in her video to us, she said that she thought that we were just trying to, like, back out or find an excuse to back out. And that’s so funny because that’s exactly like as Whitney and Jeremy and I have been talking, it’s been like, what are they doing? Like they’re going to try to back out at the last minute or they’re going to try to use all of this information against us. Like it’s just felt really creepy. So it was funny to hear her say exactly what we were feeling. So OK, maybe it is just misunderstanding. I’m willing to hope for that. So I expressed that I expressed after this, I sent another video saying I didn’t send a video so I hope that you can trust that. I’m smiling as I’m saying all of this, like I want this to um you know, I want us to be able to go forward with good feelings. So I appreciated the space we were in at that point, but then came this message from me which was like, and so she says, um let’s see, I have it, I it’s hard for me to read on the screen because it’s so small. She said um that the desired that she had said that the only desired outcome they had was a good conversation. That’s what she had said in the previous post. So now she says I have grave concerns that I may have have been misleading to you inadvertently. So she misled us about their good intentions. Like I had no idea what to make from this bizarre video. She just said like that she and Bill, she found out that she was not on the same page as Bill and Mr Mormon and she had to kind of be taken to the woodshed and be put in her place because she, because she’s, she’d muddied the water by not being correct about their intentions. When she, her whole message was we have good intentions. So this left me wondering and then a few hours later, it became clear what this was actually about because then was posted this video which was the clip I played from the beginning and this was just so bad. It was completely like mean spirited, so mean spirited. The only intention was to mock and shame and demean all of my listeners. He like people who had posted on my videos, oh, particularly if they dared to state anything about their belief in God or heaven forbid God or the adversary. He just mercilessly shamed and mocked people for having faith in anything other than I don’t know Him. I don’t know what, what he considers and it went on. He just, it was, it was really really bad. And he repeatedly said this is the situation. This is why this was so upsetting everything I’m showing you led up to Mr Mormon posting this video claiming that I was afraid to come on and defend my views because I didn’t think that I could defend them after all of this, everything that’s happened, how hard I have worked to try to get this to set up because I have had to really um try to get my friends to be willing to engage because they kept telling me Michelle, you don’t want to engage with these people. They are not honest actors don’t, don’t trust them. And I was like, well, come on, let’s just have a conversation. What can go, what, what can be bad about a conversation. Let’s do it. They kept trying to tell me and I kept saying no, come on and kept trying to get them to come on and then this happens. And so that is why I have taken all of this time to slog through all of this so that you guys can see what is really going on here. And I think it’s interesting because well, again, this video anyway, it was, it was really, really gross. It was upsetting. I’m upset that I let myself lose sleep over it because I usually am really good at meditating, but I did lose several nights sleep over this just in amazement that somebody would do this. I am currently in negotiate, not, not even negotiations. We have a date set. I’ve agreed to come on their podcast. I don’t know why they are harping and insisting that it change from just an appearance on their podcast to give us all of your information. Talk to me about deeds. Give me all the reasons. I’m not going to listen to anything you say, but keep telling me what I want to hear and give me all of your sources and, and then, um and then meet with me for 3 to 4 hours in a private conversation, even though we have no trust right at this point. And then in the meantime, this happens and this was after his first video, which was so bad. And so I know I’m not responding to it in this video. Like I said, I’m going to have to do another video to go more in depth to show the blatant. Just II I don’t think it’s intentional hypocrisy because again, lenses, Bill is unaware that he is willing not, not Bill. Mr Mormon. Well, maybe, I don’t know. Bill hasn’t said it. Mr Mormon has said repeatedly that he’s not wearing lenses, he’s not looking for any specific outcome. He has zero bias, he has no perspective in this like like way that he’s viewing it, right? Which is ridiculous. And so it’s really interesting to, I can’t, I, I lost my train of thought that I was saying that about there was a reason, darn it. I hate when I do that, but in any case, it has been really difficult to be engaging and trying to say, hey, let’s have a conversation while this is happening. I don’t know what it’s about. I don’t know what it means. I still think that they are either maybe on their side afraid to engage. So trying to like take the high road. We, we right here radio, Mr Mormon. Cardin Mormon is um um Corbin Mormon is stating that we are afraid to come on that I’m refusing to come on, which is a blatant outright lie. So sorry, I’m not doing this as concisely as I should because I huh He always accuses me of being emotional. That’s one of the other points I’m going to make in my other video. You know, one of the biggest claims is that um the church is sexist. That’s one of the biggest claims about people who leave. And I just feel like, yeah, you can, you can take the boy out of the sexist church, but you can’t take the sexist church out of the boy. Apparently because so many of these responses have been incredibly sexist, which I strongly object to. I don’t think if anyone watches my six minute video and wants to tell me that was emotional. I will be the first to admit that I am emotive. I am passionate, I am expressive, all of those things in that video, I was laughing. He makes it sound like I was crying because my feelings were hurt. No, I’m sorry, Mr Mormon. You’ve never made me cry. You don’t, I’m not going to cry. I’m going to keep engaging. I’m pretty tough at this point. And like I said, I would like this to end. Well, I, um, I did my episode on Chat G BT and it was really interesting to watch how often chat GP PT would say, oh, I apologize. I got that wrong. I’m I’m still waiting to see if um, there will possibly be a apology forthcoming. I will play the lip. So let me hear. So, so what happened from here is Mr Morman posted this and then, um, apparently that was the conversation with Maven. He was recording this while Maven was telling us no, we have the best of intentions and that’s why they had to back off of having the best of intentions. And so let me play this next clip that he added. He, he edited the video to add this clip to update the situation which he now claims and recall. Well, let me, let me just play the clip at
[1:13:31] Radio Free Mormon: this point. I have to break in for an announcement. I recorded this entire podcast yesterday which was Saturday, July 1st 2023 I had spoken with Bill Reel that very morning before I began recording the podcast. And what I reported here in this podcast was the state of things. When I spoke with Bill Reel on the morning of Saturday, July 1st 2023.
[1:13:56] Michelle: Let me pause and say, no, it was not. That was never the state of things ever. As I have just gone through painstaking effort to show you.
[1:14:07] Radio Free Mormon: I then proceeded to record the podcast. I then proceeded to edit the podcast. I broke off editing at around two o’clock yesterday afternoon for lunch, came back, around 330 finished the editing, finished the production and finally got the podcast up sometime around five or six o’clock PM on Saturday yesterday. But then last night I discovered that the state of negotiations between Bill Real and Miss Stone and the others had changed and all of a sudden now they had no,
[1:14:40] Michelle: it had not changed
[1:14:42] Radio Free Mormon: all of a sudden. Now they had changed their tune and they were willing to come on the show. So what I want to make sure is clear is that what I was reporting here? And what I will say also a couple of times throughout the rest of the episode because I will return several
[1:14:55] Michelle: times. He says it consistently
[1:14:57] Radio Free Mormon: because I will return to. This theme is correct as of the morning of July 1st 2023.
[1:15:03] Michelle: No, not correct. Never correct. It was never correct as he very well should know because he was included on all of the emails.
[1:15:13] Radio Free Mormon: But I want to make it very clear to everyone that that does seem to have changed without my knowledge. And I want to make sure the record is clear that now it does sound like MS Stone and perhaps other polygamy deniers are willing to come on Mormonism live or perhaps Mormon discussions. The details have not been ironed out at this point, but they will be willing to come on a live format and answer questions about their position and face pushback on their evidence. So I wanted to make sure that this announcement was made here. I am recording this announcement on the morning of Sunday, July 2nd 2023 when I found out last night that the information I was giving here was not up to date. I pulled the podcast down in order to regroup, find out what was going on with Bill and then we agreed that my making this announcement would be sufficient to clarify the record and give you the most up to date information that we possibly can. With this announcement being placed into the podcast, I will once again put this podcast up for your listening pleasure. So that is the end of the A.
[1:16:16] Michelle: Ok. So that’s the announcement he makes to, to claim that he made it all better. But as, as I have shown you, he was included in every single one of these emails at no point. Did I ever say I was unwilling to come on their show. Never. Not once. In fact, when Bill Out of the Blue said it sounded like I didn’t want to come in. I responded within two minutes to say no, that’s not the case. I’ve never said that. So, I don’t know. I mean, maybe Mr Mormon wants to claim that he didn’t read the emails, which I will say. I, I don’t know if this is like, pure, just malevolent dishonesty or if it’s like, like horrible incompetence because if he wants to claim that he wasn’t reading the emails, you are in an email exchange with someone coming on your show who you are actively making repeated episodes about, right? Including telling these lies. And he, he, like, where does he get off saying this if he hasn’t read any of the emails? So it’s either like extreme laziness and negligence, um, oversight. What’s the word I’m looking for, for not doing what he should have done? Right? Or it’s just plain dishonesty and maybe some combination of both. I don’t know. I think it’s interesting. I’ve told my kids before when they have their different pursuits that they love to do that. I’ve, I’ve just kind of given them a heads up that it’s really dangerous to try to turn your hobby into your career because it changes things all of a sudden, you can’t just do it for the love of it. You have to try to make it be something that’s going to pay you? Right. And I think I really have liked Mr Mormon in the past. I think he’s funny. I think I always thought that he, you know, I haven’t agreed with him on things and I, I don’t like the negative, um, just kind of always poking at and looking for the bad. I don’t love that, but I’ve always really liked him and I thought that he at least had integrity that he was acting honestly based on his convictions. So I don’t know if I just misjudged him or if he has unfortunately tried to turn his hobby into his career by going full time podcaster. And now that’s how it looks to me is he’s just desperate for clicks and looks and content and he thinks this is a topic he can bite into and he can make me the, his punching bag so he can elevate himself somehow. That’s, that’s what it looks like. But it is shame to have truth, not matter at all. It is a shame to lose this much respect for somebody. I really am hoping that, um, you know, that, that this can be remedied. I still am planning on going on their podcast. I still am really hoping they will come on mine. I think that these are things that need to be addressed and, um, if there are misunderstandings somehow, go ahead and explain them, I’m all ears or, you know, like, like apologies, work out pretty well too. If they’re sincere and if there’s a change in behavior, but in the meantime, I didn’t want to make this mean spirited. You have to forgive me for this next slide. But I thought that like Mr Mormon summed it up better than I could with this video. I think that that’s the question that many of us are asking. Why, why is this happening? I don’t understand, but I sincerely hope that he is able to find the answer and then to fix it. So I will take the slide off now. And um again, this is not what I would have wanted to spend the time on. But I hope that you can understand why. I think it’s important. I really think we need to understand the, the ability people have to just blatantly lie about other people either through ignorance because they haven’t done what they should have done. Or like my friend Whitney Horning said, people who actually who heard these rumors about Joseph, those who contacted him, um, got, you know, they were the ones that were the most convinced that he wasn’t doing these things because they actually went and asked, hey, are you doing this? This is what they’re saying? And he or Hiram would write letters would give a speech, would really try to cut it out. Too many people just heard it said, hey, this is what Joseph is doing and those people I believe were lying just as we’ve seen and then they would spread it to someone else. So someone else might, based on Mr Mormon’s awful lies might go say, oh Michelle is too embarrassed to go on. And I think, II, I think it’s a shame but I think it is instructive, something that we need to pay attention to and learn from. So all of us can try to do our best to always go to the source, right? To try to be really careful to not bear false witness against our neighbor because that’s what we’re talking about here. And I think that, that, you know, hopefully this can go onward and upward. My hope is that we all end with a big laugh with a big hug as friends who, you know, completely see this issue differently, but you know, can go and um if we weren’t Mormon, get a drink together, right? So that’s my hope for where this goes. I think we’ll have to see because I, my optimism is being a little bit dated with this particular group. It’s been really discouraging to see. So we’ll see where it goes from here. As I said, I will do a part two where I will respond to things regarding polygamy and the case that I think needs to be made. And some of the wild speculation that the other side makes while they mock me for coming up with speculative answers to some of the challenging issues in this. So anyway, that’s my episode today. I hope you found it worthwhile. I hope that we can all do and, and some can learn and grow from this and that we can continue to engage in positive, productive, useful conversations. That is my hope. That is the reason I’m doing this. So thanks again and I will see you next time.
