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A HUGE thank you to Shane for agreeing to sit down with me for this discussion.
We cover a variety of topics including Shane’s evolving beliefs on polygamy and other topics, struggles with and continued participation in the church, how we view church “authority,” ordinances, claims, etc., navigating marriage with differing beliefs, parenting a large family, thoughts and feelings about the podcast, and much more.
Please feel free to continue to ask questions in the comments. Shane has assured me he will be happy to engage and answer them.
Transcript
[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 problems revisiting Mormon polygamy, where we explore the scriptural and theological case for plural marriage. I am so excited for this episode where I finally get to sit down with my wonderful husband and introduce him to all of you and ask him all of the wonderful questions that you sent in. Um I am well, I always ask people to listen to these episodes in order and on this one really, you won’t care about this episode at all if you haven’t listened to some of the previous ones. But our discussion, we went a lot of places that I thought were so good to talk about how to navigate um differences in faith and belief in marriage and how to just many, many different things that I thought were really useful and valuable. So I was thankful for the opportunity to sit down with him. I hope that this conversation will be beneficial to many of you. And I also want to again, thank I think all of those who have contributed to this podcast. My husband is a lot of the reason that I um invite and welcome and appreciate the contributions. He works so hard to provide for our family and it’s a little bit hard on him that I’m not bringing in an income when maybe I could be. So it’s really helpful to me um to be able to at least carry a little bit of the burden for him. So I really appreciate um those of you who are willing to help out with that and those who have and those who maybe can again, if you have in the past, we’ve been going for quite a while. So, thank you so much for that. And thank you for joining us as we take this deep dive into the bury waters of having a wife that does a podcast on Polygamy. Welcome to this very special episode of 100 32 problems. I am here with my favorite person. This is my husband Shane who very kindly agreed to come on this episode with me, which was only took a little bit of arm twisting, right? A little bit
[02:12] Shane Stone: a year or something.
[02:13] Michelle: Yeah. So I’m so thankful to have him here. Um We have looked over your questions, I’ve done. I wanted to be able to just like um thank people by name, but we ended up needing, I ended up needing to consolidate all of the questions so that we can do it in a better format. There was a lot of overlap among the questions. First of all. Thank you so much for sending them in and we’ll have a bit of our discussion too, but I really wanted you to get to know Shane and him to share some of his thoughts on this journey that we’ve been on. And so, first of all, welcome, thank
[02:47] Shane Stone: you. Glad
[02:48] Michelle: to be here. Um I would love it if you would kind of introduce yourself.
[02:55] Shane Stone: Ok. Um Is there anything specific that you want me to focus on or just
[03:00] Michelle: tell us who you are?
[03:03] Shane Stone: You? Well, um, so I grew up in Utah. Utah County. Yes, Benjamin to be specific, um, uh, went to, you know, graduated from high Spanish Fork, high school, um, uh, went on a mission to Concepcion in Chile and, uh, then I returned home, uh, finished my bachelor’s degree up at Utah State. And, um, and just, uh, a few, uh, just right after that. I, um, I, uh, well, a good friend of mine was at BYU and, and, um, II, I was trying to decide what to do with my life. And so I, um, I was a political science, uh, graduate. So I, I, the, the thought crossed my mind that maybe I’d go to Washington and try and get a job there. Um, but I decided the most important thing to do would be to go and find a wife. And so I figured that BYU was the most likely place for me to do that. Um, so even though I wasn’t planning to go to school there at the time. Um, I planned to hang out with my friend a lot and
[04:21] Michelle: you came over and started playing basketball.
[04:23] Shane Stone: Yes. Uh, started playing basketball at King Henry apartments and that’s where we met
[04:28] Michelle: the one girl that was always out playing basketball with the guys. Yeah, I think
[04:32] Shane Stone: there might have been one other one. But, yeah. Yeah. Um, and, um, and yes, I was, um, impressed by your ferocity on the court and, and, uh, you were also in my friends, um, family home evening group if I’m not mistaken in his ward. So we had a
[04:55] Michelle: few
[04:56] Shane Stone: opportunities to get to know each other a little better that way too. So, anyway, um, started dating and a month and a half later we were engaged, I believe, approximately and
[05:11] Michelle: a month and a half
[05:11] Shane Stone: after that, three months after that we were married.
[05:15] Michelle: Your math is better than mine. Ok.
[05:16] Shane Stone: So, so, anyway, um, and then the rest is history. So, um, many Children later and here we are.
[05:29] Michelle: Yeah. So you can tell I, I’ll just, so, you know, Shane loves golf. He loves chess. He
[05:34] Shane Stone: loves. Yeah, I mean, I have, I have many hobbies. I don’t know how interested
[05:40] Michelle: people are. He went back to BYU and did an MB A and,
[05:44] Shane Stone: and I’ve had a career in finance, finance and accounting, um, also owned a few small businesses along the way. Um, just trying to be a provider for our family. Um, that’s been one of my primary priorities and,
[06:04] Michelle: yeah, it’s been a bit of a rocky road. He graduated with his MB A in 2008. For those of you. Was it? I thought it was during the, during the 2001, 2000. That was a different one. Yeah, the 2001 recession while we had newborn twins. So we had four in diapers when he graduated into. I know that one of his MB, a buddies put together um a sort of a protest and they all wore their suits and ties and held signs on the side of the road that said we’ll work for salary. So we, we were desperate. So it’s kind of gone on from there. But um yeah,
[06:42] Shane Stone: I uh with the twins on the way, we decided we should probably stay in Utah. And um so it’s not the place to be at the time. Yeah, instead of going out of state for, to work for a big company and, and so had to be a little bit scrappy along the way. Uh Finding opportunities here. But um but the Lord’s always provided for us and we feel like uh or I feel like anyway that he’s, he’s helped us.
[07:06] Michelle: So, yes. So, so it’s been good. It’s been a lot of kids on one income that’s had ups and downs but, but we’ve managed, we’ve done it and so, ok, So you told a little bit about how we met. And, um, I think that so I, um, I’ll tell from my side, went to BYU, determined to not have one of those BYU experiences and, um, and determined to go on a mission. And so I totally, this is, this is embarrassing to say at this point. I don’t know why I’m feeling vulnerable, but I knew on our first date that I, I actually had just broken up with a guy did not want to date, did not want a boyfriend, wanted to go on a mission. I was 20. I only had to make it a little while longer till I could start a mission paper. So when he called to ask me out, we were basketball buddies. But when he called to ask me out, I, I was like, ok, think of an excuse. How could I say no because I didn’t want to date. And I finally, ok, what time being the girl who doesn’t know how to say no to, you know, and anyway, I came home from that date knowing that I was going to marry him, I was supposed to marry him. That’s why it went so fast. So, anyway, so I really have always felt that, um, whatever we’ve been through that God put us together and that it was all gonna work out well. So,
[08:20] Shane Stone: well, my funny part of the story is that I was helping my, well, I was helping my brother-in-law Stucco his house the day of our first date. And when I left, um, I, I said to him I need to go find a wife. And so, um, which isn’t something that I said before dates. Um, generally, so I think maybe I had an idea. Um, but anyway,
[08:44] Michelle: he’s prophetic but yeah, so, ok, thank you for introducing to that. Um, someone asked, um, do you feel like you have done your part in raising up righteous seed? If not, do you think that maybe you could have done more in populating the world with maybe a plural wife or two?
[09:01] Shane Stone: Um
[09:02] Michelle: That was eli, I thought, yeah.
[09:04] Shane Stone: And, and yes, I do recognize that it was probably fairly tongue in cheek and I certainly hope so because I don’t think iii I definitely don’t think I could handle another wife and I don’t think we could have done more to uh I don’t think we could have done more to uh populate the the world with uh with any, any more wives. So anyway,
[09:28] Michelle: I am um curious, some people have asked kind of about your relationship with our large family. Like how do you connect with each of your Children? And how has it been for you to have so many Children? Is that what you set out to do?
[09:43] Shane Stone: Well, no. Um well, so there’s much disagreement right in our history about how many Children we thought we might have when we were first when we were engaged and getting ready to get married and talking about it. Um, and, and I’m absolutely certain the number was seven and I believe you think it was more. But, um, in any case, 13 was never in the discussion. Um, but somewhere along the way, I guess I learned that it was that you were going to make those decisions whether I came along or not. So, I mean, um, so anyway, um, and, and, you know, I, I, um, I think I, it wasn’t, it was, it was not easy for me. Um, you know, I’m, I, I’m the breadwinner for a large family. I do have interests outside of the family. And so, um, you know, every child takes, takes time and, and resources and, but somewhere along the way, um, you know, II, I think gradually I’ve, I’ve, I’ve come around to, um, to realizing, you know, that this is a great thing that we’ve done and a, and, and a, a priority, the priority and, and so anyway, um, I’m, I’m very happy with our family and, and, um, as far as connecting individually with the Children, um, you know, I don’t know that II, I think that’s an area where I, um, somewhat wonder if I’m doing enough. Um, I, you know, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve, I feel like I’ve done a lot with them especially. I think I, I think our family, we’ve, we’ve done many gr uh, family activities and we’re constantly doing things as a family. Um, and we, you know, we play sports, the kids, uh, participate in, in, uh, musical theater and dance and, and we, you know, we’re always there supporting them. We’ve, you know, we have, uh, discussions about politics and religion and, and, and, um, you know, we, we spend a lot of time together. Um, I’ve coached, you know, I’ve coached most of our, most of our Children at one time or another. I’ve coached them in, in soccer, basketball. Um, and so I feel, I don’t feel like there’s been, I, I don’t have too many regrets as far as the amount of time, you know, that, that we’ve spent with our family. But, uh, I do wonder at times if, if, if I’ve done as much as I could or should with them individually. I, I do think I know them very well and hopefully they know me. But, you know, that’s a, that’s a question that does cross my mind once in a while. So,
[12:47] Michelle: yeah, he’s, he’s the wrestling dad there, there, there are lots of nights where I don’t mind at all throughout our marriage. I don’t mind at all doing the dishes while Shane wrestles on the floor with all of the kids that, that’s been like, you’re really physical and active with them and fun.
[13:04] Shane Stone: Although that does get harder as the years go away
[13:06] Michelle: now that your son are bigger than you are.
[13:09] Shane Stone: Yeah. The, the, the age, the age of cutting that off is it gets younger with my braille body.
[13:17] Michelle: Yeah. So, ok. So, yeah, so there have been some questions about your journey with polygamy. Like where did you start out? Was it something you thought about it? And if you, if so what did you think about it? And how did you, you know, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve blamed this whole thing on you. so they know that you’re the one responsible.
[13:35] Shane Stone: Yeah. I, I mean, it, it’s, it’s been a long time so it’s hard for me to remember all of the details. But, I mean, just, I, I was about as orthodox as you could get, you know, and, and that was, you know, we, we had many, uh, and we’ll probably talk about that a little bit more. We had some conflict about those, uh, about that. But, um,
[13:57] Michelle: well, before, before we had the conflict, I remember us having discussions about, like, like some of my single sisters and like, would you? But, you know, because polygamy didn’t bug me. So we would kind of joke around with.
[14:11] Shane Stone: Yeah. Yeah, we did have those discussions for sure. And I mean, we, you know, we, we talked, yeah, that’s what I mean, we were, yeah, I was, I was, but I was very orthodox about everything. And so, um, and then, but I, you know, I’ve always enjoyed learning and, and so, and I don’t, I really don’t even remember what got me um thinking about it or I, I just, you know, back in, I don’t know, like 2007, 2008, 2009 period, I guess, somewhere in there maybe right in that ballpark. Um I, I was reading a blog online and, and uh that spurred me to doing a lot, a lot more research on my own and, and, and I just kind of, you know, it came to the conclusion that I, I didn’t think um polygamy was. Uh well, I definitely did not think God had ever commanded it. Um I couldn’t see any evidence of that. And obviously, there’s a lot of negative fruit that has um been born in, in, in, in relationships where that’s taken place or scenarios where that’s taken place. So, um you know, so that was, that was kind of what got me started and, and it’s not been AAA real quest of mine just every few years, you know, I’ll be in a Facebook group and see something or, or um or I will, you know, just hear something at church or whatever the case may be here studying a lesson and, and, you know, I’ll revisit some of those scriptures and think about it again and, and I just don’t, the more and more I, I argue it with people or discuss it, the more convinced I am, you know, that it, I just don’t iii I believe Jacob in, in the book of Mormon. And I don’t believe there is a loophole. II, I think that that’s, I don’t think anybody can read Jacob Two in context and if they didn’t already have that in their mind, I don’t think anybody would take that away. I, I do believe that, you know, uh that it was III, I believe that the interpretation of it being, you know, that if, if God commands polygamy, uh then it’s OK. I, I think there was some motivated interpretation in that. Um But, you know, again, I, I don’t know, that’s, that’s just my personal.
[16:37] Michelle: Well, that’s, that’s my memories. That’s what you brought in. I was in the bedroom and you came in and, and you were reading Jacob two and you were like, I don’t think, you know, when you read verse 30 to me and started to explain the, a different paradigm, right? A different way to see it. And um that’s probably why I was so, what would I say? Um not ferocious, but so like, I guess in my study. So it, because I was like, what are you talking about? And I could see the validity of what you were saying. So I had to go study it because clearly that couldn’t be true. So, and I should clarify when I joked about what I said, we joked about like some of my sisters or some different people. It was never um it was, you know, it was more like if they never get married, would, would that mean you would marry them? And I actually having it be like my sisters made it so close to home that I kind of realized this is weird because I was, I was just raised on all of the good, beautiful stories and had never applied it in, in actual thought. So. Ok, so it was, it was, well, you know what, maybe we should back up and talk about. There have been all, I think the majority of the questions have been about navigating evolving faith and perspective in a relationship. And so there were some specifics I wrote out, but maybe we should just back up a little bit and talk about that period. Like, like my memory is I was the first one to really kind of struggle with things in the church but in a, in a unique way. And then what, why don’t you tell that experience for you how that was when I was,
[18:12] Shane Stone: I mean, you were um I remember it pretty much most all being in this house. So I think it was within the last, you know, 15
[18:23] Michelle: years or so started in Draper. I think so, maybe a little longer.
[18:28] Shane Stone: But um but, but yeah, I mean, Michelle was very um you know, she, she, she’s, she some something, you know, spurred her to, to really become a, a, a AAA student of the scriptures and, and I just remember that, you know, the more that you would study, the more questions you would get and I’m not sure what my motivation was back then. I think maybe I just, you know, didn’t want to be bothered with it. I think I just wanted to enjoy my, my pursuits and my hobbies and, and just go to church and, and have that be the end of it. Um, and just live our lives and, and, and so, and, and, and I think, you know, I did, I had gone on a mission. I felt like, um I had a testimony of the church and, and, and, and so I, you know, but I, I didn’t, I just didn’t have a lot of interest in, in looking into things too deeply at that point. You know, I, I studied the scriptures. I, you know, I, I, you know, I wasn’t, uh I wasn’t afraid of, of, of studying or, or anything like that. I just, it just wasn’t AAA real motivator for me. So, so I think, I think it definitely caused some real frustration for you that I, that, you know, you because we would discuss these things and, and um and it was frustrating to Michelle that I could not understand where she was coming from and I wasn’t willing to really talk about it and
[20:11] Michelle: frustrating to you that I was so upset.
[20:14] Shane Stone: Yeah, I mean, iiii I have little snippets in my mind of you know, one time coming home from church and we were in the car and you were, you know, really frustrated about something that you heard at
[20:28] Michelle: church after church on a somewhat regular. Well, oh, well, I’ll let you finish up. That’s fine. I, I, because for me, I, I know that like when one night we had the four babies and I would get them all down for a nap and, um, and have that like precious time to eat some food and to read my scriptures. And I think maybe that I always had been in the scriptures, but that’s maybe when I really started to dive in. So that was been, that’s been over 20 years ago, you know, and then I, and then I just kept studying more and more and more and that was what I would do all day. And um and so I would always study the lesson to go to gospel doctrine or release society and, and have these insights and epiphanies and these beautiful things I would see in the scriptures and go and be so excited to hear other people’s thoughts and to maybe share some of mine and, and it was always this like gut punch of, of just nothingness, right? Not only were there, not often other insights being shared, but no one was interested in hearing anything I wanted to share, right? And, and I don’t want to say it, it wasn’t always like that there would be some lessons that would just be glorious. And there were a lot of other lessons when, what they would say would die would lead me to study more in the scriptures because I would disagree with it. You know. So I don’t want to make it all negative, but it was that my expectation was up here. I used to say if it’s true that we are God’s covenant people with the covenants with the priesthood, with all of this. And we have one hour a week to come together to study the scriptures. Like, what should that be? You know, and I felt instead it was so it was just that my expectations were set too high of what I thought it could and should be. And it was so painful week after week to face that reality of what it too often was.
[22:23] Shane Stone: And uh yes, that’s how I remember it as well. Um And, and as for further context, I mean, I had had many like, uh very profound to me spiritual experiences even, even then in my, in my belief system uh where I was at, you know, during that time. And so, so I didn’t necessarily feel like I was on the wrong track and I, well, yeah. Yeah. And, and like I said, I, you know, I, I had had experience, I felt, I felt pretty um strong in my, in my testimony and my knowledge of, of, of God and, and um And so anyway, I didn’t necessarily feel um like I had, you know, the same motivation or, or, or drive as you did to solve or resolve some of these issues. So,
[23:22] Michelle: yeah, so, and then I know, I know that the book of Mormon started speaking to me like, like this, this message started just screaming at me from the book of Mormon screaming is the wrong word because it was not and it was peaceful other than me feeling like, how can I believe this? How can I possibly think this is what it says? Someone else would have told me, how could I think I know something that everyone else doesn’t talk about? Right? And so I was really struggling with it. And then I read a book that I was led to that served as a second witness to tell me that yes, indeed. The entire message of the book of Mormon is basically an instruction book with person after person telling you how to come back into the presence of Jesus Christ. And that is the purpose of the gospel. And that’s what and that was what the message I was getting. So this book confirmed it for me. So I think that gave me more confidence and I started to talk to you at that point, like I say, I kind of had a reverse faith crisis because it wasn’t that I, I thought the church was perfect and I started to learn it wasn’t, it was kind of like I thought the church should be all of this. And then I, and then I learned, oh, it never was meant to be that. Ok. I was, I was a little bit more at peace with the church but I wanted you to come along with me to the things I was like, like I would try to talk to you about it and you were kind of still set in the, the standard perspective. Yeah.
[24:41] Shane Stone: Well, and, and there were, I think doctrinal disagreements that we had and, and, and, and there is definitely stuff in, in the history of the church that I think you were becoming aware of that, that I was not aware of. I’m like, how could that possibly be? And, and so, um, tell them
[25:00] Michelle: your epiphany.
[25:01] Shane Stone: Well, um, I’m not sure if we’re talking about the same thing. But anyway, II, I just, I realize, you know, at some point I realized that I could go one of two ways I could either, you know, just completely shut things off, um, and just say we’re just done talking with about this or, or I could, um, you know, I could start reading some of these things and, and I, I feel like I try to be an honest person and so I felt like I couldn’t, I couldn’t argue from a perspective of intellectual, honesty, integrity if, if I didn’t know what you were, if I did if I wasn’t familiar with what you were with, with the basis that you were arguing from. And so, and so I started reading some of the same materials and, and, um, and, and my eyes were, you know, my eyes were opened and, and, and not in a bad way, I think in a very good way. Um, and so, um, it, uh before, before that experience, III I think I, I kind of felt like there was nothing left to learn and that, you know, that we, you know, we know everything, we know the plan of salvation, we know everything that’s supposed to happen between, between our birth and our death. And, and, and this experience really um really opened me up um to a lot of, you know, uh uh to a whole new world of, of possibility as far as learning and, and in some ways that hasn’t necessarily been a great thing. II I uh a wonderful sister in our awards uh bore her testimony. I don’t know, four or five years ago. And, and I, I don’t remember many people’s testimonies but she, she said, and she’s, you know, getting up there in age and, and she said, I just remember her saying the older I get, the less I feel like I know. And, and II, I was like, amen sister and I was not as far down the road at that point as I am now or as she, as she was. But um you know, it, it, as part of that experience, I, I felt like I had repenting to do uh because I had depended on, I had depended on the leaders of the church. My and all I had, I depended on authority my whole life to tell me what I, I should think and what I should believe. And I, I never, I always read the scriptures through that filter of current church dogma or doctrine or whatever you wanna call it. And, and so I never allowed myself to, to consider alternative possibilities in the scriptures. And, and I, you know, I, I, at some, at some point I, I went to the Lord and, and I, and I repented the, the phrase that was in my mind was depending on the arm of flesh. And, and, and for me that, that prayer, that particular prayer led to, you know, what I consider to be. Well, it was an, an, an amazing experience for me and something that I’ve always remembered since and I, and that, you know, uh and so I, that’s, that’s kind of the way I’ve tried to approach things, you know, over the last 10 years or however long it’s been since that um experience.
[28:28] Michelle: So would you call it a um baptism of fire experience? I don’t wanna
[28:35] Shane Stone: Yeah. Well, yes, I do. II, I would consider, I, I do consider that just because the experience that I had was, was and I didn’t, it didn’t even cross my mind at the time of what it was. I just thought it was an incredible experience
[28:50] Michelle: and then you didn’t have a name for
[28:52] Shane Stone: it. And it was only later when I went back and read Second Nephi 31 that I, and how Nephi describes being able to speak with the tongue of angels. Um, that, that, that, that it hit me that, that was what that experience had been. And so, um, so anyway, uh, like I said, since that time I’ve, you know, I’ve just, I’ve, I’ve tried to be open to, you know, everything. I, I ultimately, I don’t, I don’t fear truth anymore. I don’t, I don’t, you know, that’s why we’re here. I think, I think too many times we’re destination oriented as people instead of journey oriented and, and we’re, we’re afraid that, hey, if, if I learn something that shakes what I’ve, what I feel to be true, um, that we’re going to feel like, hey, I’ve wasted 1520 25 years of my life and, and, and for me, you know, I, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve talked about it in lessons before. I love what Hugh Hugh Nibley has taught about it that this is eternity. We’re an eternity now. We’re here to progress and, um, and to learn and it’s not magically going to change after we pass through the veil. Um We, we need to be doing it now. And so whatever, whatever truth is out there is, is what I’ve tried to be open to and that includes polygamy and everything else.
[30:22] Michelle: So, I, I love that. II, I like how you said you’re not afraid of truth anymore because I think, I mean, I, I know how much I lived in fear as like a, um, sort of, I, I don’t know what the term is but, but when I was kind of in the the myopic bubble of, you know, like I was raising my Children just desperately hoping that none of them would. Yeah, there’s this kind of underlying fear of that, that something could go wrong from this perfect pa path, this perfect um pattern that we’re supposed to follow. And um and I think the same thing, like I love the scripture, a seminary teacher had us memorize it in high school. God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. And, and so now I try to notice any time, like I think like some people respond to the podcast or, you know, some of my guests with, with some level of fear like, oh, are they a safe source? And I just feel like throughout the book of Mormon, we are told how to discern and it’s never a purity test of any kind. It’s a, it’s a sp it’s the spirit, right? And so I think that um anyway, I like I like, that’s, that’s the same for me just being open to the quest for knowledge because I find the more I learn the beauty of seeing how little, you know, shows you that much more. You can learn when you think I’ve said that sometimes when you think, you know everything you’re not open to asking or seeking and you can’t learn anymore. So I think while it was scary to jump into this place at times and while it has in some ways, made things less comfortable in some ways. Have you, have you ever, do you have any regrets? No,
[31:58] Shane Stone: no, no, no regrets at all. Um And even if I did, it’s like opening the bo the bottle and letting the genie out, there’s no putting the genie back in. So um you can’t unlearn what you’ve learned and, and it would be impossible, I think to go back to where I was before. So,
[32:19] Michelle: yeah. OK. OK. Thanks for sharing all of that. I appreciate it. My memory of that first time when you read the first book was that you said if I want her to listen to anything, I have to say, I have to read what she’s read. Like I don’t have any credibility with her if she doesn’t think I know. You know. And so that’s maybe a useful thing for, I know it. I feel so fortunate and blessed that we have been generally on the same page. I, we definitely have pulled at each other in, in different directions with our beliefs. But I don’t think we’ve ever been, like, super judgmental of one another or e either way, you know, like, it, it can be a struggle but I don’t think I was like, you were so close minded or you, you know, I never felt like that and I don’t ever, I think you did never feel like you’re such an apostate, you know?
[33:08] Shane Stone: Oh, I’m, I’m sure I used that term a few times, but usually it was and just
[33:16] Michelle: so I don’t like it when people call me an apostate. That’s so mean. But anyway, so, um I think as we’re progressing, my memory is that once you went, you went like fast, further, faster than I had gone. Like I, I, I struggled and tried to find my way through because I was all alone and then Shane, all of a sudden was like, I’m on this track. I am learning, I am studying and so he started to have answers and receive direction about things that made me really scared and uncomfortable. And, you know, I, I think he says he had to, I think II I talked to you, we, we’ve talked about this before that I really feel like in our marriage, it’s been useful for us to recognize our stewardship. You know, not that everyone has to have the same stewardship, but I was the one that would get the answers most of the time about there’s a baby that needs to come. And, um, I didn’t set out to have 13 Children either. We agreed on, I thought eight when we were dating, he thought seven, whatever the case may be. But, um, but it was always like, and, and after we had four, I remember because we had four in diapers that was intense. And this was a guy who didn’t like babies very much. It was not natural for him. And I remember him one day just being like, I thought I would like it more. It was not a, a fun time for you. And um anyway, but for me, when the answer would come, that a spirit is supposed to be here, it was like crushing, you know, I couldn’t, I couldn’t say no. But then for you, when you would get answers about different areas, I would defer to you and, and always, if I could set my fear aside and follow your answer, things would turn out like I would have confirmations of it usually after I. So anyway, I think that both of us have had a push and a pull and a struggle too. So, um anything else you wanna say on that?
[35:12] Shane Stone: Um There was something but I think I forgot it. So, but I’ll try to come back
[35:17] Michelle: to it. I wish that we had
[35:21] Shane Stone: no, I mean, yeah, that’s what it was. So yes. After that experience that I, that I talked about, I, I just kind of went hog wild for probably two or three years and, and I, I mean, I would come home from work and was reading different books and different blogs and, and everything I could find. And so, yeah, II, I definitely think there’s been an ebb in Florida. We, we’ve had to balance each other out, I think at times as far as, you know, you were ready to leave the church, I think for a while and I was trying to keep that from happening and then I went the other, you know, the other way and was having a lot of serious questions of my own and, and it seems like you were uh kind of went the other way at that point and we just kind of, uh and now I think we’re both on a little bit more of an even keel. But, um anyway, but I mean, still still with a lot of open mindedness and, and, and willing to question things. But, um, but I think both very faithful people and, and wanting to follow um God’s will for us, whatever that might be. So,
[36:26] Michelle: yeah, and not necessarily a comfortable fit in, in the church but, but feeling
[36:33] Shane Stone: like I think we, we’ll talk about that.
[36:36] Michelle: Yeah, and maybe, maybe we’ll go there right now. There was one other thing I was gonna say based on what you said and I can’t remember, but I will, I think it was in that period when you were, like you said, going hog wild. I think that’s when you came to me with polygamy.
[36:49] Shane Stone: No, I’m pretty sure that this, the polygamy would predating any of that stuff. Yeah, it was
[36:55] Michelle: because you wouldn’t have been studying it really
[36:57] Shane Stone: well. I still studied stuff once in a, it was like, I never studied. So, um, I’m, I’m pretty certain that was, well, I think, I think the polygamy thing was like 2008, 2009. This was 2012, 2013, you know, time period.
[37:14] Michelle: So we’ll argue that after and figure it out just like whether it was seven or eight babies that we were gonna have when we were dating. But like I, I, we’ll have to, I’ll have to think that through and see. So, um, ok, so I think we’re gonna skip forward. I had the questions kind of outlined, but since we started talking about this, I think there, there were lots and lots of questions also about our relationship with the church and, um, I guess to nutshell all of it kind of how we stay, why we stay, how we handle the disagreements or complications. We can get into the specifics while I’m looking at those. Do you have anything to say on the broad topic?
[37:53] Shane Stone: Yeah, I mean, um, I think that at some point, um, I, I came to the determination that, that um that, that the church for me is my ward and my stake. And, and, and there are two churches really. So one is the doctrine of covenants 1069 church. Um And the other is the, you know, kind
[38:22] Michelle: of
[38:24] Shane Stone: those who believe in Jesus and are baptized basically the people. Yeah. So, and then there’s the, you know, the, the hierarchy or the apparatus of the, of the, of the organized church, um the capital c in the lower case, c so to speak. And, and, you know, there are, I mean, you know, I read through the questions and clearly there is a lot of frustration and, and concern and um you know, how do we, how do we stay in this organization? And, and, and for me, you know, obviously I’ve had those same questions myself many times. But um but I think that what it boils down to is I think the church needs everybody. And so, and, and I think, I think that we all need each other, we need different perspectives, we need different um experiences to learn to learn from each other. And, and I’m sure that there is a, is a, a large subset of, of the population of the church that would be happy to, you know, just kind of have it to themselves. And I think that that’s not a good thing for them, you know, I, I don’t think, and so I think even though maybe we don’t even realize um why we need each other sometimes and it, it’s hard to, to be sitting in a sac meeting and hear somebody speaking and saying things that you don’t agree with. Um, but those are, and, and, and, and we experience it as much or more than anybody in those meetings. Um But without those feelings, those are the types of feelings that cause us to continue to progress and to learn and, and, and, and stretch ourselves out of our comfort zones. Um And so, and, and, and it gives it, you know, I’m, I’m preaching here a little bit, but I don’t know that I’m necessarily the best practicer of it, but it gives us an opportunity to, to have charity for people. And so, um and to try and, and, and maybe um identify a little bit with experiences that don’t necessarily always ring true to us and try and understand where people are coming from. And so, and so I, for me, you know, what happens with the capital C church is, you know, is one side of things that I don’t get too invested in honestly. So I, I, for me, the lower case c church is, is what I, what I try to focus on. And, and as long as, you know, as long as I feel like there’s a place for us in, in that church that’s then ultimately, I, I mean, I’ve had, I’ve had thoughts about is, is it would I be better off just going on my own experience or with just our family. And, and, and I, and I think you’ve mentioned in the podcast previously about your, your feeling that this is where you’re supposed to be and, and I still feel like I’m supposed to be here. And II, I don’t know that that will ever really change at this point. I’ve asked the question, maybe it will, but, but then I’m comfortable with whatever I feel guided to do uh by the Lord. But, but I still really enjoy the church um for the most part and I enjoy the people. I think there’s some really, really good people in the church. And um, yeah, it’s, there’s some problematic things as well and there always will be. And so, um anyway, so as long as I feel like there’s a place, um then, then this is a good place to be and, you know, um it’s, again, there’s always, there’s always conflict, inner conflict and, and wondering if it’s, if it is the best thing for our Children, obviously, as, as your audience probably is aware or, or, you know, we, we have Children doing all kinds of different things and, and some have had a great relationship with the church and some have had a terrible relationship with the church. And so it, it, it’s hard to, it’s hard to always know it’s just a matter of trying to do what you’re spiritually feel, spiritually led to do
[42:29] Michelle: so. II I completely agree. I think that’s, yeah, I, I also, as we’ve gone through this journey because in a way, it has been interesting how we’ve kind of been an anchor to each other because when I was like, I’m, I’m out, I can’t do it anymore. You were real. You were like, well, I’m gonna go and I’m gonna take the kids and you’re welcome to come with us or not, you know, and then I think vice versa when you’ve been like, I can’t see how we can do this in good conscience. And I feel like, no, I feel really strongly that we need our Children or that child at that time or, you know, so we’ve really, that’s been our journey, which if we ever had been on the same page at the same time, maybe we would have left at least for a time, if not, you know. And so it’s really been a blessing to us. I consider that a blessing. And I think one of the things that’s always come up to me is like, well, I mean the words that when, when Jesus asked Peter, will you also leave? And he says, whether will we go, you know, and I, I feel that I feel I know that there are and, and this is not to say what everybody has to do. This is sharing our journey, right? But that’s been my feeling is like any, if, if anywhere I go, I’m gonna deal with people that frustrate me, I’m gonna deal with leaders that frustrate. Like, like, I’m not gonna get rid of the irritation because the irritation isn’t necessary built in part of it. Like, even if we try to, you know, I, I know as a young mom I wanted to, like, move to the country and live on a homestead where my kids didn’t have any outside influence. And you know, and now that I’m older, I see um I see a real deficit in that thinking from my perspective, I think like on the one hand, the scriptures talk about the world as something we need to flee or something, we, you know, but they also talk about the world as what we love and what God so loved. The world that he gave his only begotten son. And we are called to be there. Like the experiment of fleeing has been proven erroneous like, like Leigh fled into the wilderness. But guess what? Lemon Anden were there? Like we could even try to establish Eden. But there’s a snake, you know, like, like I think that it’s just a matter of doing the best we can wherever we’re called to be and, and not looking, not thinking there’s gonna be some perfect thing. Does that make sense? Like, and, and it’s all for me, it’s all prophesized in the book of Mormon and the Scriptures in the book of Isaiah, like I see a lot of truth and yeah, I’m not free to talk about a lot of truth. But in, well, let’s let’s move on to that because you said I went through a time as well where the Lord just told me this is your church and it was the local level that was destroyed for me as well because of 2020. But um but let’s talk about how you feel and interact on the local level for both of us. Like, there were questions about like, do you bring these things up and, and how are, how are you, are we viewed? And, you know, I have thoughts on that.
[45:30] Shane Stone: Yeah, you probably know more about that than I do. Um, but I mean, I certainly, I mean, I, I certainly understand that we’re not in the mainstream of the church and, and there, you know, there’s, there’s a certain percentage of, of ward members that I think are great with that. You know, they’re, they’re, they, they appreciate us and, you know, I was a gospel doctor and teacher for four years and
[45:58] Michelle: until 2020.
[45:59] Shane Stone: Yeah. And I really enjoyed it. Um, to an extent, I felt like I was always walking the tight rope because III I didn’t feel like I felt like I had to do that if I was going to be true to myself. And, and, and, and I also, you know, I, I felt like it was important for people to push boundaries and, or have their boundaries pushed and, and, um, and consider different alternatives and, and I know I, I got a lot of compliments about my lessons and I also got
[46:33] Michelle: the best gospel doctor teacher. I’ve been begging him to get that calling back. I
[46:39] Shane Stone: don’t think that’s gonna happen for a while now. But, um, but anyway, so I, I, um, but I, there, I have no doubt I would get some pretty crusty looks from, from some members of the, of the ward as well. And so, but that’s, you know, there are other gospel doctrine teachers that probably speak to them. And so, um we’re, we’re, you know, we’re, we’re a big melting pot. Um At least that’s, I think what the Lord intended. So, so
[47:09] Michelle: that’s good. I think for me, um I, I, I’m always just like happy and oblivious and I just love everyone. So why would not everyone just love me? And I’m not one that spends time talking about or even thinking about my neighbors in terms of like what I would say that I don’t like about them. So it always has surprised me when things get back to me that are being or have been said because we lived so like having a large family and homeschooling gives you a pretty thick skin. Like we’re already not in the mainstream with our, with our large family, you know, and that’s been happening since I think we had our sixth when we were living in Draper and people were not cool with that and then, or
[47:49] Shane Stone: you have to have a thick skin already to do it. I think there’s part of that too.
[47:53] Michelle: Maybe, maybe, I think, I think I’ve had to develop one much, much more than I had one. I
[47:58] Shane Stone: don’t really care too much what people think about me
[48:00] Michelle: for the, he doesn’t care. I, I
[48:03] Shane Stone: my feeling I wear socks with sandals, unrepentantly
[48:08] Michelle: and gray shirts with tan pants. We, we go the rounds about that. But um yeah, so for me, I think I had already taken a lot of judgment and criticism and gossip because of my family and my homeschooling and who knows what all the details are. And so adding doctrinal uniqueness. I I don’t know, but it was the same. Like I would always, I would often get like many people calling me or writing notes. Thanking you for the comments that I made in, in classes. You, you know, like I know that there were a lot of people who appreciated what I said and I appreciated what a lot of people said. I was also told by a bishop that I would never be called to teach or speak or you know, so there were obviously complaints coming into, right? So I guess we just like everything else just be us. Do you do you and let all the haters hate? Right? But I think I, I like that one thing you address that you as the gospel doctrine teacher, you really carefully walked the line. I, I feel like I feel for me, church is not an appropriate place to bring up most things that would be difficult other than just slightly stretching because people are there, like on my podcast, people are coming here to hear me. When I go there, I’m going into their space where they can’t necessarily select. So for me, I’ve, I’ve not felt and in fact, I, you know, I, I had really struggled with the church through 2020 2021 and we didn’t go back. I mean, we weren’t ours, our stage shut down longer than just about anything else. Our steak. And then since then I’ve, I’ve been in the nursery which is a great reprieve for me to heal and,
[49:52] Shane Stone: yeah. No, I, I mean, I, I totally agree with that point that, um, you know, I, I, if I felt like, um, the room was getting too uncomfortable then, you know, I would back off or whatever the case may be. But, but I, you know, I, I, what I, what I would try to do is, is, is, you know, provide things for people to think about and if they ever wanted to ask me about them or learn more, then, you know, we’ll talk about whatever you want to talk about as far as one on one with individual members or family members or friends or whoever the case, whoever it might be, um, you know, I’ll talk about anything and everything. As long as somebody is interested in learning, I’m not gonna force my beliefs on anybody and, and, or, or even II, I, I don’t feel like it’s my job to, you know, to make people, uh, to make people, you know, crazy uncomfortable or, or mad or whatever the case may be.
[50:52] Michelle: So, anyway, yeah, I feel like I struggled with that more. Like I know I alienated a lot of people in my extended family or because I, because I just like to talk about things and I would usually be talking to someone and someone would overhear and come and say that’s not right and get, you know, and so they so definitely there have been uncomfortable, unpleasant trees. But you’re, you’ve always been pretty, he talks less than I do. That probably helps.
[51:17] Shane Stone: Yes, I’m, I’m very much more of an introvert and I’m not much of a talker. So I’m more, much more of a reader and a watcher,
[51:26] Michelle: which is, which is why I am the one that gets called into the bishop’s office more often, I’m sure. But that’s always been for things outside of church, not for, well, except the one talk I gave, which was a good talk. So, ok. Anyway, um I wanted some of these other questions like, how do you navigate this? Sort of, there’s one way that’s allowed to be, you have to hold these, you have to agree with the narrative on everything or you’re not welcome here. Right? Like, like how do you, how do you navigate that kind of the Brian Hills perspective of walk the, walk the line or get out?
[52:03] Shane Stone: Yeah. So, I, I mean, what it comes down to is that I just, I just ignore that perspective. So II I don’t agree with it. I don’t believe it’s, it’s the way the Lord wanted the church to be. Um uh you know, as, as elder odor said, um several years ago, you know, he talked about a big tent church and, and, and a lot of people laughed at that and I, and I think that there’s some validity to that, that, that, you know, there’s a lot of people that don’t feel like they belong in the church and, and, and that’s, and that’s regrettable to me. Um That, that they feel that way. I, I obvious, I mean, I would, I, I think we should be welcoming everybody. I mean, it, it’s sad to me that there are that there are people, there’s a subset of the church that wants to make the church smaller instead of instead of making it as big as possible. Um And so, but, but as far as me personally, I just don’t, it doesn’t bother me anymore. Um, you know, we’ve, we’ve always had, you know, varying voices in the church and, and um you know, even up to the apostles like Ruch Dorff and Hubie Brown and many others that have had valuable, really valuable um contributions to make um to the, to the church. And, and so, you know, and the, and the, and the president of the church is rarely the one, you know, telling people to do that. I think a lot of times we take it on ourselves to, um, you know, to be the policeman of orthodoxy in the church. And, and, um, and so really the church should be, you know, it should be a lot of things to a lot of people, if not all things to all people as far as, as good as far as the gospel goes. I mean, you know, instead of trying to, instead of trying to narrow it down to one perspective, that’s correct, uh, you know, the, the, the, the concept of, of one true church means a different thing to me than, you know, than maybe it means to other people. And so that’s, that’s, yeah, I try to be true to that, um, belief that I have about the, about what the church is supposed to be rather than, you know, rather than letting, letting people make that decision for me or, or, or giving into that influence. I don’t, you know, I’m my own person and I, um, I’m not going anywhere and I don’t want anybody else. To go anywhere either. I, you know, I, I, ideally we’re all, you know, um, here to help each other move forward. So
[54:42] Michelle: I love that. I, I think there really is something to kind of what you’re saying is like you shouldn’t need to check your brain at the door and you shouldn’t need to all be, we, we shouldn’t all need to be exactly the same to be able to come together. In fact, that’s the opposite. I, I would say that’s the opposite of what, both, both Jesus and Joseph Smith taught, didn’t Joseph Smith preach against creeds and say how good it feels to be able to tram I think. Yes. Thank you. Yep. And then Jesus also brought in all of those who the others wanted to exclude. So I think that’s a good thing to recognize is we can hearken to the call of Jesus and be included even if others would want to exclude us. I think that’s kind of what I said, like, it’s my church too and I don’t have to leave it unless God tells me to, but I’m not going to leave it because someone tells me to someone else. So, ok, so another question, do you feel like you have to justify still being in the church? There were a lot of people who were like, how can you justify that? You know, for people who just feel like their objections are so much that we’re complicit. I guess by being in it.
[55:53] Shane Stone: Uh Yeah, I, I don’t know, I, I mean, the, I think you can make that claim um to an extent. I mean, I don’t feel, I don’t feel complicit in, is complicit in issue in, in things that took place 200 years ago. Um things that are taking place now with the LGBT community obviously and, and, and, and maybe a few other issues like that. Yeah, I mean, that, that’s a little bit of a cause for concern. But
[56:22] Michelle: you can bring up also like some people talked about the global movement, the 2020 21 reaction.
[56:28] Shane Stone: The,
[56:31] Michelle: it’s all in there.
[56:34] Shane Stone: It’s a, it’s a tough situation because, you know, I, I want to, I want to have, you know, that kind of internal integrity, but by the same token, I mean, my boss doesn’t, do, you know, he, he, we, we disagree on a, on a lot of things. I still work for him, you know. Um And I, I still, I, I can’t, I’m not, I’m never going to find an employer that, that, that lines perfectly with my beliefs. Um We stay in
[57:02] Michelle: America.
[57:03] Shane Stone: There are many things in the country that we, or, or, or the state that we might disagree with and we still stay, I think it’s about about staying where you are and fighting to make it better where you are. Um Otherwise you’ll end up in an echo chamber, you’ll just be by yourself. So I, I don’t, I, I mean, I get it, I totally do. Um, I, I just, I guess if, if I were, if I were, I felt like I was called to le leave, I think it would be because it, there, there would be something outside that I could either bring to other people or that other people could bring to me that I’m not currently getting and, and, and I’m, I don’t think it would be just because, you know, II I need to do that in order to, you know, uh now don’t get me wrong. There is a point, you know, at which you can’t, um you can’t affiliate yourself with, with certain things, but I just don’t think uh the church is anywhere near that point yet.
[58:01] Michelle: I also really like the, the kind of way of living, like some of my core ways of trying to be are, I don’t do things motivated by fear or by shame. I really try not to do that. I also, I try to go toward things more than I go away from things. Like for me, I wouldn’t leave the church out of objection. I would, I would go to something else that calls me out of the church. That’s why I would leave the church is if the, if I was strongly inspired to go somewhere else instead that that’s kind of like, like it’s kind of like leave to what? And I know different people have different answers for us. That’s been like I’ve seen, I was gonna say we kind of are in this funny place where we’re squished on the one side with LGBT issues and squished on the other side with like very conservative issues, the pandemic response, the global entities, like, you know, like we’re, we’re getting hit on both sides pretty hard, the vaccine issues, you know, and I, like my kids haven’t had shots for, what, 20 years something. And so, um I mean, I’ve been on that bandwagon and so it’s been, it’s been a tricky thing to navigate, but every time we’ve been really profoundly told to stay. So that’s where I feel like we’re supposed to be and I’ve seen it be a blessing in most of our children’s lives pre a pretty profound blessing.
[59:22] Shane Stone: Yeah, for sure. And, and to be clear, I mean, you know, I read through a lot of the questions and, and, and, and II, I get, I definitely get the sense of, you know, what about baptism? What about priesthood? What about all, all
[59:38] Michelle: of these? I,
[59:41] Shane Stone: yeah, but there, there’s even more than authority. I mean, there are doctrinal issues, there are questions about everything and so um everything and we, we’ve entertained every, all of those questions and we, so I, I just don’t want anyone to get the perception that they’re, you know, that, that we’re considering it all, you know, and, and trying to be open to everything and, and ultimately, um, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a matter of, kind of putting all of that into a big funnel and, and, and trying to sort through it all and sift through it all and at the end of the day this is where we are and, and, and it’s, and it’s, it’s a constant, um, process of doing that, I think and, and this is still where we are.
[1:00:32] Michelle: So, and it makes me think maybe that’s how it’s supposed to be. I don’t, I don’t think that there is the right boat to get on for a comfortable ride. I think it’s a one on one grapple like, you know, Jacob that wrestles with the angel. Like I think it’s supposed to be a wrestle, it’s supposed to be clinging to God for truth with all of these things. And I also know that I don’t want to be hasty on anything because I don’t agree with myself over the years. Like my perspective changes and the more consistency or anchors, I have to, to bump up against the closer I can come to truth instead of just following what I’m thinking in the moment, maybe, you know, there’s something about that consistency for me and, um, there was something else I was gonna say, but while I try to remember it, oh yeah, I guess, well, ok, I have two places we wanna go. You meant, I wanna say this. So I don’t forget you mentioned a while ago that you have a different perspective of what the one true church means. And it cut off both times when I was just about to ask you, you can’t just leave us hanging on that. So, but I wanna say something else first. So you remember that? I want you to talk about one to what one true church means to you. And in the meantime, also we did have a lot of questions about the specifics, kind of about authority or validity. Like I know you were just pointing to it, but what’s required and what is valid? Like our temple work? Is it necessary? How does it fit in and does it have, is it efficacious? And so I guess I’m right for now, I’m preparing an episode on the temple. I questions I’ve been asking forever. The answers were just dumped into my map and, and it really threw me like, like I had a hard week grappling with that until the Lord gave me a different perspective. So as far as the temple question, I’m going to reserve that for an upcoming episode. But is there anything else you wanted to talk to? Like like is our baptism valid?
[1:02:24] Shane Stone: Yeah, I think, well, yeah, I think we could, we could have an episode on every single one of these issues or multiple episodes. So I don’t, I I don’t know that I wanna get too deep into it. Um Other than just to say that, I don’t know. So, um II, I believe that we, II, I strongly believe that we need to be baptized. Should we be baptized at eight years old? Um I’m, you know, I’ve had many questions about that. II, I don’t believe we can even begin to fully comprehend the covenant that we’re making with the Lord at that age. And so that’s, you know, that’s always been somewhat of concern, but at the same time, I feel like, you know what the Lord is, the fairest person there is and, and, and I don’t think he’s withholding blessings from us if you know, if, if at some, if 15 or 20 years later, we finally come to like the under a AAA much better understanding of what that baptism means. Do I think we need to go out and get rebaptized personally? That’s I, I don’t think that’s what’s required either. Um At least for me that’s, that’s, that’s how I kind of um um get along with, with it. So,
[1:03:41] Michelle: um so can I, so is it kind of like what I’m hearing? And, and I’m liking it is kind of like we do the best we can with what we have. Like ne if I said we keep the law, although it is dead unto us, you know, like maybe we’re, and there’s something about the recognition, the realization that we don’t know everything that leads us to have a broken heart and contrite spirit and be open to learning more. But we keep doing the best we can with what we are given at that point that, you know, and I also think it’s really, it’s so easy to be critical, it is so easy to criticize and it’s so hard to build or to create or run something effectively. Right? It’s way easier. And so I think it’s really easy to like, it’s so easy to criticize the church and maybe it’s harder to help build it in productive ways. They
[1:04:31] Shane Stone: make it easy.
[1:04:32] Michelle: I know, I know, I know.
[1:04:34] Shane Stone: Um But, but no, I completely agree with that point. Um That and ee even though I think in a lot of ways my nature is to be more uh intent on destruction, I probably made it sound like I uh I probably glossed over that a little bit. But no, I mean, there are times when I think, hey, we need to burn everything down. But um
[1:04:56] Michelle: but we’ve had, we’ve struggled
[1:04:58] Shane Stone: and, and not just the church, I’m talking about a lot of different institutions that are a major part of our lives. But anyway, so, but, but ultimately, I, I think that the other approach is much more productive and conducive to a, you know, a good spirit. So,
[1:05:15] Michelle: OK, so now how do you define one true church?
[1:05:20] Shane Stone: Well, um I mean, as I mentioned earlier, the DNC 1069 version is, is, is the true church to me. And, and, you know, one of the, one of the primary reasons that I stay engaged with the church is um is the book of Mormon. So I have a, I have a, what I would consider a burning testimony of the book of Mormon, even though many times I wonder how I navigate, you know, a lot of the issues around it, but I just find um so much, oh worth in it. And so
[1:05:56] Michelle: the issues in it, do you mean if it’s
[1:05:58] Shane Stone: historic, it’s, it’s provenance, it’s everything. So,
[1:06:04] Michelle: yeah. Yeah.
[1:06:04] Shane Stone: Yeah, I mean, there’s just so many questions about how it came about and the fact that Joseph Smith rarely taught from it, you know, in the church is, is there are mind boggling issues around it. But, but I love the book and even with its e even with the problems. And so, and so, um the church that has, you know, that, that teaches from the book of Mormon and, and, and uh from which for which the book of Mormon is an integral part. Um You know, I, I’m gonna, that, that’s, that’s one of the main things to me that, that makes the church true. So, um, so anyway, as far as, you know, um all of the truth claims of the church, no, I, I can’t, I can’t say that I am a believer in all of the church. Uh truth claims or or, or as far as I, I have a lot of questions about priesthood authority about the temple and, and, you know, far too many to go into, I think in this, in this particular, uh,
[1:07:05] Michelle: you come back to future. I think, I think there’s also something about God honors our righteous efforts and our righteous desires. And I think, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of power in, in our goodness. And I, yeah, II, I guess when you say you’re not certain, you’re not throwing it out, you’re just not like, like our son that’s on a mission right now. Someone asked a lot about authority and like that, that was the mission. It was like we are the one true church that has the one authority. And I think that has not been our perspective at all. Like with our son, we’ve tried to give him, help him, um like as we have talked or, you know, prepared him to go on a mission. He’s doing it now. But I, I think with all of our kids that has not been our focus. That’s not the way we approach the church at all. It’s, it’s a beautiful vehicle for people to be in while they come to Christ. And I do know for a fact that it is possible to come to Christ and it is as possible to come to Christ in this church as it is anywhere else. I have not ever felt that my relationship with God has been impeded by the church. My relationship with the church has been impeded with the church but not my relationship to God in any way.
[1:08:21] Shane Stone: No, I absolutely agree with that.
[1:08:25] Michelle: So, ok, on that line, we have a couple of specific questions. I don’t know that we’ll have time for the COVID question. We’ll see if we have time. But um, this just someone wanted to know how our experience was during that and that’s, that’s a deep, we’ll just wrap it up and say hard, not good, hard, not good at all. Um But still we were miraculously told to stay so we can come into that more a little bit. Maybe if we have time, this question is, how would you feel or how would we both feel if I got ex, if I got excommunicated?
[1:09:00] Shane Stone: I have no idea. I mean, how I would feel. I, I mean, I, I think it’s difficult to say unless you go through it, but um I would like to think that I wouldn’t feel like your eternal soul was in peril. Uh I don’t, I don’t, I don’t believe that would be the case. I think that the, that the impact would be more on the social aspect of things. You know, all of our neigh or most of our neighbors are members and, you know, you wonder how, how they might react if uh if that, if that happened. And, and so I I suspect there would be a lot of change that would be problematic. Um, but
[1:09:44] Michelle: yeah, I move any of the other times so we didn’t move in 2020 or 2021 when it felt like we needed to,
[1:09:50] Shane Stone: for me. I’ve always felt like if it ever happened to me, I would just keep going and being, you know, and being there and, and making them look me in the face. So, um, you know, obviously I wouldn’t be taking the sacrament or whatever the case may be or I’d be sneaking it, you know, whatever or doing it at home. But, um, but, uh, you know, I, I, I’ve always, uh, I mean, part of what keeps me going is that I i it’s, it’s, it’s not just the leader’s church, it’s everybody’s church, it’s my church. It’s, it’s obviously the Lord’s church most importantly and, and so, uh, but, but that doesn’t mean that, that every leader makes a perfect decision. Um And so I’m gonna keep doing whatever the Lord, you know, uh, whatever I feel like the Lord wants me to do. But as far as if you got X I, I’m sure it would be far more difficult than what I currently expect. It would be.
[1:10:46] Michelle: Yeah. And may I, I don’t know if I’ve shared this before, if you’ve heard this before? Forgive me or fast forward. But, um, I have actually faced this question twice. Well, it actually, it goes a lot longer ago than that. But, um, but when I was told to start the podcast, I had to grapple with the possibility. And like, that’s when it really hit me and then when I was called into the State President’s office several months ago, that wasn’t a year ago, was it? Um, oh, was that all? Oh, my memory is not good. But I was called into the State President’s office and, um, and in those days, you know, until I had to go, I really had to struggle with this and, and the Lord is just so good because it’s, this has been hard, you know, it’s been hard to have this weight on me. I don’t, someone asked about our board. I, I forgot to say like, I’ve, I’ve never brought my podcast up at church. I’ve told a couple of friends in the ward, you know, because they’re my friends and then a couple of people in the ward have come up to me and said, I, like, I love your podcast, which, oh, really? Like, I didn’t have any idea they were listening and I, that made me feel so good that like, they knew what I was doing and didn’t hate me or reject me, you know, like I love that. But um as far as when I was called in, um I, I, that was a sidetrack. I went on for a reason and I forgot, but when I was called in I really had to grapple with like, what will I do? Like what it was so stressful? And the Lord just finally said like, what is the w like, like how like asked me what’s the worst case and the best case scenario? So I really thought it through, it was like, OK, this is the worst case, this is the best case I came up with those. Then the Lord asked what do you most want? And um I guess the worst case scenario was like an ultimatum, take it down or you’re out or even worse, like it’s too late, you’ve done too much damage, you’re out, you know. And the best case scenario seemed impossible like which it ended up being just kind of like just checking in meeting of the mind, you know. But um and then so when I got the best and worst case scenario, the Lord said, what do you want? Kind of just this deep like what do you most want? You know, the, the questions from the Lord are much more profound than you can communicate them in words. And I just knew immediately I was, I want to do what you want me to do. I want to do what I’m here to do. And, and I’m the one and it felt like if I would face excommunication or if I would fa face an ultimatum, it felt like I couldn’t do that because if I was told to pay take the podcast down. And this is what the Lord is telling me to do right now that I couldn’t do it. And if I got excommunicated and lose lost sort of my connection to the church and my ability to communicate with active church members to some extent that I couldn’t do what the Lord is telling me to do. You know? So when I realized that answer, like, like it felt still hard, but the Lord just told me no one can take that away from you. Like no one can take away from you the ability to do what you’re here to do and what I, you know what you’re here, what you’re commanded to do. And so that was such a comfort. And then we went and it ended up being the best case scenario. We just have wonderful leadership who are open and you know, like, like not, they are, they aren’t trying to make, they’re not doing the boundary patrol of you. You don’t, you’re not welcome here. So anyway, so I guess in those times when I have faced that question that gave me so much peace, the Lord just gave me so much peace to know it’s gonna be OK no matter what happens. Because what I most want is to serve the Lord. And I want that more than I want to do this podcast or more than I want to stay in the church. That was the other part when I was like, like when I was like, what if I face an ultimatum? The Lord was like, oh, you’ll know what to do you. So, and I knew that I would be willing to take the podcast all down if I was, if the Lord said to do that or I would be willing to continue with it and face consequences if the Lord said to do that. So I’ve had comfort ever since that debate. Um OK. Did I go off too much? So, um let’s see. Oh, and also navigating our chur the church with the kids. Has that been a challenge for you? Like? Mm, no. Are you worried about what the kids are learning? Primary?
[1:14:54] Shane Stone: I mean, there’s always a little bit of that but I feel like we’ve done enough. Um We talk about things enough in, in, in our home that, you know, um that if the kids are open to learning things they’ll learn, you know, what they, what they should be learning and, and also hopefully they’ll learn how to learn, not just um not just what we think uh but they’ll learn how to, how to do, do it on their own too.
[1:15:19] Michelle: That’s great. So, so we’ve kind of discussed this already. But do you have any advice for couples that are, you know, there were a lot of questions
[1:15:27] Shane Stone: about? Well, I think honestly, I think you’re the one that should provide that advice because you’re the one that was dealing with a husband that, you know, uh wasn’t necessarily open to what you were talking about.
[1:15:37] Michelle: So I think in general, and I can use this example right now, I spend more time talking to the Lord than to my spouse about things that I’m struggling with. At least I do that at my best and I try to do that. Um This last couple of weeks was really hard. In addition to everything with the podcast, I’ve had an infection in my ja that has just been killing me and on top of the stress. So I was desperate for it. Like I really have felt like I need to do an episode every week and I couldn’t do it. So I asked Shane and he was like, no, no. So I spent a couple of days just talking to Lord and Shane came home from work on Monday and I was like, ok, I’ll do it and that makes it sound like I’m controlling him. I’m not at all. Just I have found going to the Lord to be efficacious and miraculous. And I never say please change Shane. I say, Lord, this is my situation. This is what I’m feeling. Can you show me the solution if it’s to have Shane on, can you soften his, you know, sorry, I don’t mean that you had a hard heart. Can you soften his heart or if it’s change my perspective, change his perspective? Yes, that’s better or if it’s something else, can you show me that? Right? Because rarely, like I rarely go to the Lord to change my husband’s perspective. But I often go to the Lord to ask for perspective and to ask for help to bring our perspectives into alignment. Another, I’ve shared the example of having abigail when I was so strongly inspired to have an unassisted birth. And that was not easy on my husband. But really, I just prayed like Lord, I want to obey you. But you’re telling me I need to give birth this way. And you’re telling me I need to be unified with my husband and I can’t do both of those things unless you help, you know. And so that’s my main advice is, is go like approach your spouse without judgment just with love, just looking for the good, try not to judge them for where they are and go to the Lord to help, to ask for help with both of your perspectives so that you can be united. That’s the best advice I have.
[1:17:35] Shane Stone: Yeah, I, I mean, I guess, I mean, I could give advice from my perspective. I’m, I’m not sure that the person that would need it would be watching the podcast. So, um but, but I, I mean, I, I, we’ve already discussed it. I, I ultimately, I don’t think I, I think you have to be willing to, you know, to, to, to open up that potential, um, discomfort and that can of worms, so to speak and be willing to, you know, be willing to try and meet on common ground and, and, and, and, you know, just being open to what, um, what your spouse is is talking about and, and I get the sense that, I mean, ii, I, I’m active in a few different, um, Facebook groups and whatnot and I get the sense that there’s, there’s a lot more of this than, you know, than we think there’s a co a couples. Yeah. Not, you know, not being on the same wavelength as far as their beliefs go and, and not, you know, I think if you’re, it’s, it’s fine to not be on the same wavelength as long as you’re open and, and willing to discuss each other’s wavelengths and, and, um, you know, and be kind and compassionate through it all. So because it’s, it’s, it’s difficult. So I,
[1:18:50] Michelle: I’m, I’m quite certain that God never wants to be the reason that we have disunity in our marriage. Me coming to God shouldn’t mean that I can’t connect with my husband there like there’s just growth that’s needed. Right. So, ok, I, I, here are some other questions. What were your feelings or what were your biggest fears when I started the podcast? Someone asked because this is more visible than, you know, I’ve been in the past
[1:19:17] Shane Stone: that
[1:19:19] Michelle: did the house for the Decor. Yeah. Well,
[1:19:25] Shane Stone: I, I don’t know that, that’s a fear. It was more of like, ok, it was more of a resignation that if the life would just continue as it had been. So, um,
[1:19:36] Michelle: but it’s been ok. Right. We’re doing pretty well. Thank you. Those who donate because I’m able to have cleaners come every other week. But that’s
[1:19:43] Shane Stone: helping a lot. II, I actually, I think I was generally pretty supportive about it. Um, even though I think Michelle has asked me to come on since pretty close to the beginning and I just, it’s just, I, I, I’m just, it’s not just not something that I really feel comfortable with more than anything. It’s not that I had any objection to the podcast. And I think that I think that you’ve done some really good work. And so, uh, anyway, II, I don’t, no, I don’t, I don’t think II, I wouldn’t say that I had really too much fear about anything, um, or too much concern. I, I think, and I think we’ve already kind of established why that might be, you know, and, and kind of where we’re coming from as far as our foundations prior to this. Um, and so anyway,
[1:20:31] Michelle: yeah, like this wasn’t as hard for you as the unassisted birth, for example,
[1:20:36] Shane Stone: that, that was where crazy people die. So
[1:20:42] Michelle: that was his response, that was what he said
[1:20:45] Shane Stone: on the podcast.
[1:20:47] Michelle: And so, ok, so, um, there were a couple of other questions Oh, someone asked like, well, well, I guess just I’ll broaden the question to how do you engage with the podcast because sometimes, like, do you watch the episodes? Do you not? Do you kind of, and do you ever feel kind of protective? Someone asked, like, like some people have said that they feel protective of me when guests are aggressive? Yeah.
[1:21:12] Shane Stone: So, so, um, I probably only watch about 10% of the episodes to be honest. Um, a lot of it because I already hear a lot of the, uh, the information and the, and the presentation. So I
[1:21:30] Michelle: try really hard not to bounce ideas off of him because he just doesn’t, doesn’t, well,
[1:21:36] Shane Stone: more, I’m not what I would consider a creative person. And so when you come to me with, hey, these are the titles I’m thinking of, I’m like, sorry, that’s not my Wheelhouse. I don’t have, you know, much to say there. Um, but, you know, II, I tend to watch a lot of the interviews and, and, um, um, and I’ve watched some episodes that I, that II, I find more interesting. I mean, I’ve, I’ve done a lot of this, um, you know, research, I think and, and so, and, and I, this is a different medium than what I, I, I’m, I’m much more of a reader. Um, that’s how I digest information. And so I, I’ll listen a lot of times I’ll listen at work when I’m doing kind of a mundane task that I, where I can pay more attention. If it’s some, if I’m doing stuff at work that I have to be concentrating on, then it’s more difficult and, and at home, I feel really awkward listening to your podcast in front of you. So, so anyway, that’s kind of where we’re at.
[1:22:35] Michelle: What is, what is this? A prophet has no honor in their own. That’s not what it’s about. I’m not now someone’s going to misunderstand that I’m calling myself a prophet. I’m not, it’s just like the people I know you for real aren’t, aren’t that impressed or interested? Often?
[1:22:50] Shane Stone: It’s, I don’t think it’s that. But anyway, I, yeah, it’s just as far as feeling uh you know, defensive. I mean, yes, um there are times where I would like to strangle people. Um But, but by the same token, I also, this is Michelle’s journey to a large extent and, and I don’t want anyone getting the impression that, hey, I’m, you know, her protective husband or whatever the case may be. I, I mean, to, to whatever extent you’re picking battles, you need to find those battles. And if I feel like people are being totally unfair or whatever, then I might step in or if there’s something that I feel like I can contribute to a conversation. But, but for the most part, I do my thing online and you do your thing online and that’s
[1:23:35] Michelle: kind of OK, so I’m gonna add a question to this because there have been several Facebook groups I’ve left because I just, uh, contention, you know, like, like, it’s not good for my stress levels and I don’t want to get into people being contentious. You’ve stayed. And I know a lot of times they use the insult, like they’ll try to insult you by calling you my husband. Do, do you know what I mean? Like, like they use me to kind of insult you in your discussions about some of these topics.
[1:24:05] Shane Stone: I wouldn’t say that happens a lot. It’s happened a few times
[1:24:08] Michelle: that see, that, that makes me want to strangle people. I get so mad when people do that because they’re kind of
[1:24:14] Shane Stone: like, I’m like, whatever, you know, I’m, I’m my own person. If people don’t see that, that’s not my problem. You’re
[1:24:24] Michelle: confident in your manhood. You don’t have to exert. I think I am ok. And then, um, let’s see, there were a couple of other things that I was, oh, someone asked, I think, um someone asked where are you with Joseph? Because I was kind of surprised getting ready for my last episode when he was like, I, I don’t know, you know, and so where are you, did you watch that episode?
[1:24:48] Shane Stone: Uh I have not yet. So it is one that I definitely would like to watch
[1:24:55] Michelle: if we should wear the glasses while we did this month. If he should wear these.
[1:24:58] Shane Stone: Um, but I read the notes if you’ll remember. So, um, I, I kind of have an idea of what you’re talking about. But, um, yeah. No, I think it’s a good question. Um, uh, I am somewhat agnostic about Joseph’s polygamy. Um, I, I, I’m not ready yet to, to go entirely into the, um, into the camp of, of that. He was, uh, strictly monogamous with Emma. Um, and, and so I’m going to, I’m going back several years. Um I came to the conclusion se several years ago that it didn’t matter. And so it had no impact on the, the, the veracity of the book of Mormon. Um And really what, what happens in the church, you know, there’s so many questions with the church that, I mean, that’s just one of hundreds. So anyway, um so, II, I guess the, the, the reason that I’m invested in the question is that is strictly because I, I want to believe in people, you know, and I want to believe that what that they are, who they say they are and, and what they say they are. And I want to believe that he was living the life that he said he was living rather than the currently accepted narrative of that. He was a, a manipulative liar basically. And, you know, I get that, you know, in the 18 hundreds, certain things might have been acceptable that aren’t acceptable. Now, for me, it’s hard to accept that in that certain things were ever acceptable.
[1:26:44] Michelle: But were you talking about that’s accepted, that was acceptable.
[1:26:47] Shane Stone: Well, I mean, lying for the Lord was, you know, that, that, that was, and I think, I think there was a culture based on some of the things that I’ve read and study that there was a, a culture of exaggeration and, and making things sound more grandiose than they really were. And, and, you know, and that’s not just in the church that was in, in that, in the culture of that time uh widely so, but, but there’s a difference between that and, and, and manipulating young women into marriage and, and, and so really, I mean, I really, there, I think that you’ve done a very, very good job of presenting the case and, and others out there that are doing it as well. Um But, you know, there are a couple of things that, that still are a little bit problematic for me and we’ve talked about those and, you know,
[1:27:40] Michelle: what are your biggest right
[1:27:41] Shane Stone: now? I think Sidney Rigdon, I think is one of my biggest um as far as the fact that he, he had opportunities to um you know, to, to set the record straight about Joseph and say, hey, no, he never did this and the fact that he hasn’t done that uh or that he never did that um is it is concerning to me, um you know, the, some of the, some of the members of the, of the Nahai Council that um that
[1:28:14] Michelle: Austin calls and Leonard. So
[1:28:15] Shane Stone: Leonard, so especially because we do have the affidavit that, that he in which he said, you know, if, if you or he, he told the person that delivered the affidavit to him, if you, if you give me an affidavit that says he did, you know, preach and teach and practice these things, then I would sign that. And, you know, and so, um, I’m sure that there are, there’s a response to those things. Um, and, and, and I’ll be anxiously waiting to hear those things,
[1:28:48] Michelle: but I get to hear it because you don’t listen to my,
[1:28:50] Shane Stone: if you tell me that that’s, that those things are being addressed and I’ll be happy to hear that. I, I don’t know that I’ll ever, uh, we can’t know, we can’t know with certainty. It’s a matter of, it’s a matter of which way we lean and I’m definitely leaning that way, but I being innocent. Yes. And, and, and being monogamous. Um, but, but I mean, really, I, I don’t, you’re not, you’re never gonna find a smoking gun that says he didn’t do it. That’s the problem. You, you, you, you could potentially find smoking guns that say he did or, or the largely point to that. Yes. The Children being part of it being one of those things. But, but you’re never, you just never, you’re never gonna find anything. All you, all you can do is, is, is pile up the evidence on both sides and, and try and make and all. But ultimately, it doesn’t matter to me. I don’t care.
[1:29:43] Michelle: So that’s interesting to hear you say that because I was there, those who watched the podcast know I was there for a long time where it’s like this isn’t the important question and it’s, it’s been so interesting to me to have the Lord, have me have that perspective until like now I really like how I said, I don’t always agree with myself. Now, I feel like, oh, this matters a lot. And I know I’ve said it doesn’t matter and we can’t know. And now I’m like, oh, it matters a lot and we can know. So, so I’ve disagree. I’ve changed my perspective on that. I’m not telling you you’re going to. But I guess I’m saying I’m very sympathetic with your perspective right now because I was there for a very long
[1:30:18] Shane Stone: time and you’re doing different things than I am so that there might be people out there who need that and maybe the Lord is, is trying to help them get what they need.
[1:30:31] Michelle: So, yeah, and I think for me, for me, the answer has to be twofold like we learn by study and also by faith, right? Like I did, you know, I had the same hang up, not the same exact ones. But those hang ups, I was like, I just can’t understand this if he didn’t dabble at all, you know. But so it was all of the research combined with the Lord, like the outpouring of the Lord for me. So maybe whichever way you work. But I, I do, I do really admire just holding our views with some humility, holding our views somewhat lightly, you know, I think is valuable. And so, so I won’t, I won’t judge you for still thinking there’s a possibility.
[1:31:11] Shane Stone: Well, I won’t judge you either for, for being a, a crazy monogamous. There
[1:31:16] Michelle: you go. So, um ok, I can’t, I, I, we’ve gone off of the, you know, off of, off off script. So I don’t know if we’ve missed anything, but let me just ask you if there’s anything that you think, you know, that is kind of on your heart that you would like to talk about or share.
[1:31:35] Shane Stone: No, I mean, I think, um I think we’ve, we’ve covered a lot of good things and, and a lot of the things that I had been thinking about. Um and that was, that was actually one of the only remaining things that I really wanted to touch on was just Joseph and, and, and my, my feelings about that. So I
[1:31:57] Michelle: don’t know, I should say this is off, this is off topic. It just comes to mind. People who meet us in person are often surprised How tall are you?
[1:32:05] Shane Stone: Um, 6 ft, eight inches
[1:32:08] Michelle: and I’m about 595, 10. So I look short next to him, but I’m actually pretty tall. So when you meet us, he’s really tall. We have one son that’s taller than you. Um, Lincoln has been on the episode podcast. So, anyway, so if you meet us, yes, we’re really tall. Our kids are pretty tall. And then, um, let’s see, I guess, I guess I just think, would you feel comfortable telling us your feelings about the book of Mormon, The Gospel? The Pass you on Jesus Christ? I guess I’m asking if you feel like you would like to bury your testimony of anything or share any thoughts that you have.
[1:32:47] Shane Stone: Um, well, I think I’ve, I’ve done that a little bit to, I mean, to some extent. Um, um I, you know, I, so I had an experience several years ago that I felt, um, may have been an invitation from the Lord to, to seek greater, greater knowledge and wisdom and, and experience. And I don’t know, I, and I, and I, well, I do know, I, I haven’t, I, I haven’t pursued that to the extent that I, that I wonder if maybe I should have. That’s always in the back of my mind. I’m, uh, you know, I like my hobbies a lot. And so, um I’m not, I’m not like perfectly dedicated to, um, to, to the scriptures and to learning and seeking and I, I absolutely am always open to it. And so, uh and, and I do, I still do a lot of it, but I haven’t, I, I haven’t pushed the envelope as far as, you know, what you talked about with the book of Mormon and, and what kind of its central message is. And I don’t know that I know that we necessarily have to do that in order to please the Lord. Um but I, but I do feel like it’s always there in my mind. Um that, and I hope I haven’t, I hope I haven’t displeased the Lord by not um by not taking that invitation if that’s what it was at that time. I, I’ve, I, I hope it’s an open invitation. Um I do feel like, you know, I, I spoke in, in, in sac group meeting on Sunday and, and I do feel like um s uh you know, the, the information that the teaching that Nephi gives us in the book of Mormon is really um the next step as far as, you know, the, the, the Holy Ghost teaching us what we need to do and then, you know, potentially moving on from there to, to learning. II, I don’t think that what’s in the scriptures is everything or even close to everything that the Lord has to teach us. And um and, and so with that said, I, I feel like I haven’t been um I’m not I’m not there as far as, as far as, uh, you know, pursuing that path yet. Um, like I said, I like my hobbies too much. Can I,
[1:35:27] Michelle: can I ask you one question that I forgot? I, I want to come back to this. I hate interrupting you, but before you wrap up, someone asked and I actually think it’s an important question here. Like, is the study of polygamy worthwhile? Does it matter? Are there other things we should be studying instead? And I have my thoughts on that. I would love to hear yours.
[1:35:45] Shane Stone: I don’t, I don’t think any topic is off limits or not worth discussing. So, or studying. Um, ultimately, I think you can spend too much time on polygamy. I think polygamy is one of the, is one of the things that’s most drawn my attention and obviously yours. Um, because I’m not sure why that is, it’s a really kind of, um, conflictive. I don’t think that’s a word but, um, topic and, and ee even just inner conflict and trying to sort it out and figure it out and, and what really happened and is it of God and, and all of that? And so, um, so I think we can, I, I, but I think it’s absolutely worth studying and it’s absolutely worth trying to come to some kind of a, uh, um, uh, a landing spot, uh, in your soul about, you know, whether about where, where it is where you are with, with it and with God and where He God is with it. So, um and, and, but I believe that about every topic, every topic in the gospel. Uh and just some tend to, you know, uh attract more of our time than, than others.
[1:36:58] Michelle: So I can say that for me, um studying polygamy has been profoundly important to understand the nature and identity of God to understand the relationship of God with each of us as individuals, male and female. To understand. Um Well, I mean, you, I think when you really get into polygamy, you are studying repentance and marriage and covenant and commandment and the scripture is like crazy. So I think it’s for me, it’s kind of, I mean, people have often said that to me like, why do you care? We can’t know, we don’t need to know it doesn’t matter. And it’s like there are a few things that hit more centrally into that just slice right through every aspect of who God is, who we are as men and women, husbands and wives. What what it means to come into the presence of God, which what it means to raise up seed and for the Lord to raise up seed unto himself, like understanding that on level after level where now I’m like, oh my goodness, it’s not only raising up a covenant people, it’s raising up people into God’s presence like that is what the gospel is throughout the book of Mormon, that’s the power that God has given us is that, that’s what we’re supposed to be doing as soon as we can recognize that we are the gentiles, we are the ones that need to repent, right? And the book of Mormon tells us throughout, well, the book of Mormon and the doctrine of covenants that we need to actually believe it so that we can stop being under condemnation so that we can be raised up in unto the Lord. And so I think that it is to think that we can just somehow, I don’t know, wait it out like we’re just here waiting for God to do something with us as a people is that I think that’s what we think, you know, I think that that is an erroneous belief. I think we really need to understand how to discern truth from error, light from dark and, and the pool and polygamy really does. Like, I think it’s no mystery that that is the thing the adversary uses to like just dash to pieces, everything God is trying to do because it’s so, so useful and compelling in these false spirits that could, that testify of it. You know, I, so, so for me, I think I’m sure you could study it in different ways that aren’t effective. But for me, if like if you want to truly come unto the Lord, understanding the truth of polygamy isn’t pretty essential part of that.
[1:39:28] Shane Stone: Iii, I don’t disagree with that. I think, um, I think there’s a lot to learn there about a lot of different, um, you know, areas um, than just polygamy in the, in the study of it. So, there’s a, there’s an awful lot about human nature in general in the study and, and like you said, um, how, how God has interacted with us and does continue to interact with us
[1:39:55] Michelle: and, and finding more and more of our false traditions versus true doctrine from the Lord, like getting it and trying to sort that out. I mean, even the experience, like I still just want to invite everyone the experience of going to section 132 in fasting and prayer if that’s what you feel inspired to do and asking the Lord what portions are true revelation of which portions are deception and darkness. Uh Like those are good things for our spirits, right? Us, learning to discern truth and error is an important part of this and learning to do all things that God commands us and not fall into the trap of the things not commanded. So anyway, um I interrupted you. Did you have anything else you were sharing about? You walk with God? OK. I mean, I happen to think I know the invitations the Lord has issued me and actually everything if we are aiming at, if we have it in mind, I think it’s always preparation and it’s always invitation. And so anyway, I, I do think that some of the things I really like about this man, he just has massive integrity and deep goodness. He’s, he’s given his life to provide for a family and I’m really thankful for him and the anchor that he is. So, thank you. Thanks for agreeing to do this. He hates PD A, but I’m gonna kiss him anyway. Ok, thank you. We’ll see you next time, isn’t he? Great? I think he’s great and I think monogamy is wonderful. So I want to thank all of you who stuck around for this whole conversation. I hope that there was something you found beneficial. Shane told me that I should um say that we will continue to answer any questions that we might have forgotten to cover or that come up after this. We will be happy to continue to engage with those in the comments of the video. So if there’s anything that you wanted to ask and or didn’t or wanted to hear the answer of, go ahead and post in the comments and we will both be um quick to reply. So thank you so much for joining us and we’ll see you next time.
