70: The *Godfathers* of Mormon Polygamy with Jeremy Hoop | 132 Problems

Please consider supporting this podcast:

Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball: lifelong friends, mission companions, collaborators.
We all know they were taught polygamy by Joseph, and both declared it was the greatest trial of the lives, right?
Jeremy Hoop digs deep into their original sources — journals, letters, speeches and records — to see how well these claims hold up.
What did they know about polygamy, and when? Where did they learn it, and who taught it to them?
If you believe Joseph Smith was the originator of polygamy, you might want to spend more time getting to know Brigham and Heber.

Transcript

[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 problems revisiting Mormon polygamy where we explore the scriptural and theological case for plural marriage. I am so excited to make this announcement. Um Jeremy Ho has agreed to come and do a series of episodes we’re going to do between six to maybe up to eight different discussions, talking about different people, having to deal with polygamy. We had planned to talk about these things but realized there was so much that his brilliant idea was to break it down and handle two at a time. So this first discussion is about Brigham and Hebrew. I am so excited for you to get to hear this information. It is so important I do want to express at the beginning. Some of this is hard, it’s hard to hear, it’s hard to deal with, especially for those of us who are faithful members of the church and who love the church. I didn’t speak very carefully the whole way through. We’re just going through so much information. I do want to again let you know that I have a testimony of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. And I’m so thankful for my membership in it. I see God’s hand in all of this. I see God working in all of these different ways, even through all of these different people. I often it was meaningful to me in this context to remember the revelation given through Joseph Smith. No unhallowed hand can stop this work from progressing, right? It doesn’t matter who, who did what. Even in church leadership, God is still at the helm. God is still working. I see God’s hand through all of the different pieces of the restoration and all of the splinter groups everywhere it went. I just think that the quest is for truth, right? We want to find true principles and we want to eliminate false principles no matter where they may have come from. So just let me say that at the outset that it might be hard to hear some of these things about Brigham, Brigham Young and Hebrew C Kimball, who we are addressing specifically, but we can’t close our eyes to the truth. We need to be willing to look and understand and see so that we can come closer to God. So with that being said, thank you so much for joining us as we take this deep dive into Brigham and Hebrews polygamy. Welcome to 132 problems. I am thrilled to be here again with Jeremy. Hope for our first in our series of discussions on, I guess we could call it the origin of polygamy, right? Jeremy, we are going to do maybe eight different parts. Um going over two people at a time, basically who feature prominently in this story. And so Jeremy has so kindly dedicated hours to putting together this presentation that he’s coming to share with us today specifically on Brigham and Hebrew. This is, we’re, we’re starting in the perfect place. This is where it starts. And so I I am so excited to bring this information to you to have Jeremy here. His, his knowledge is vast and the amount of time he puts into this project serves and blesses all of us. So Jeremy, thank you so much for everything you do. Thank you for putting this together and thank you for coming to share it with us.

[03:24] Jeremy Hoop: Well, thank you and that’s um that introduction is way too kind. Um It, I feel really frankly overwhelmed by this whole subject. Um uh I had no idea when I started this about eight years ago, uh started diving into this subject that um I would become as passionate about it as I am. And, but what I found is that um this is at the core of everything that I think is troubling in, in, in our culture, our, our theology, um our

[04:07] Michelle: religion, our history,

[04:09] Jeremy Hoop: it’s, it’s, it’s at the core of it. And so I think it’s really important to be accurate about it. Um And, and I’m so grateful to you and to Whitney, you’ve had Whitney on and the, the last episodes that you’ve had with the, the women who are helping rescue people. Um It’s, it’s such an important discussion to both examine what actually happened, what we actually can know and don’t know, being honest about that and then also examining the fruits of it, what it actually does, what it did and what it does currently and being honest about that, you know, I think the Lord was really clear when he said by a tree’s fruit, you know, if it’s good or bad by a person’s fruit, by a prophet’s fruit, you can know if it’s good or bad. And so what we’re really doing is

[05:07] Michelle: all of that. Yeah, the core of all of that is an idea right by the fruit of the idea is you can know the origin, is it from God or is it from the adversary? And that’s the big question we ask here and once we know it’s from the adversary, what can we do to get rid of it to clean it out, to filter the water,

[05:27] Jeremy Hoop: in other words, to repent of it, right. So, yes, and today we’re going to be talking about um two of the main individuals through whom this idea um germinated in our view. Um and examining them is really important just the other day. Um Actually just yesterday on a prominent podcast, you know, don’t want to name persons, but um they put forward again. The comprehensive list of why Joseph was a polygamist and which is interesting that they’re needing to do that again.

[06:04] Michelle: Yeah, they really went after us, didn’t they? They not my name. They didn’t say our name either, which I appreciate

[06:11] Jeremy Hoop: and with some of them, I think they’re, I can hear of some level of frustration that they’re even having to do it. Um, but I think that indicates that, that our arguments are, are making an impact. There are more and more people waking up every day um in the, in the Mor Mormon communities who are coming to this conclusion as they examine the evidence and on the other side, on their side, they, they feel like it’s not even really worth examining. Why do we even have to go over this? It’s so, um it’s so irrefutable, right? And yet when they go through the arguments, it’s the same old story. And that’s, those are the things that we’re unpacking. And when you listen, if you go and if you know what podcast I’m talking about and, and if you listen to it, what you’ll hear is things that they say Joseph did that don’t come from Joseph or don’t come from the time or can’t be tracked to him but come because of things other people said or things he was accused of. And so the question of this whole thing becomes a question of credibility. Can you trust the stories of the people who said things about Joseph and that’s what we’re going to start looking at today. So, the, the, the host of the show said, you know, I want to talk to those people who are skeptics and who are on the other side and I welcome a, a conversation and I, I man, I welcome that conversation too. If you’ll have uh a robust, thorough, not piecemeal, not gotcha questioning at hominem throwing um uh style conversations. But if we can actually address things like the host began to address section 132 we’re gonna talk about the two people that I believe are behind the genesis of, of the actual revelation today. And can we believe these people? Um But as he walked down what he called the provenance of Section 132 he didn’t address a mountain of things that you have to address to talk about that document to talk about. Whether or not that’s a credible document, whether or not it’s actually attached to Joseph Smith. And so, um I’m happy to have those discussions, but if I can show you, for example, a dozen people of the prominent people of the narrative that Joseph was a polygamist back in those days who dem demonstrably lied. If I could show you a dozen who demonstrably lied, then are you open to a conversation? If I can show you credible evidence of Brigham Young and his pals, his inner circle, doctoring the books, doctoring Joseph’s papers, doctoring the records for the history, for the, for the, the codified history that they would tell to the people and then put in the official history of the church, I can show you over and over and over again evidences of that. If I can show you why William Clayton is not a credible witness and why his journals are not to be trusted. Why they are not contemporaneous records? Are you open to a conversation? So that’s the kind of thing that, that, that we are engaging in. It’s, it is not Q and on uh there’s um there’s graphene in the vaccine that’s going to um uh allow five G to basically do weird stuff inside people’s bodies and control you like a robot. This is not what we’re engaged in. We’re engaged in forensic analysis of the actual record.

[09:38] Michelle: Well, I have a couple of points. So first of all, the thing that I’ve been saying, I’ve been getting a lot of messages from people since that aired saying, have you seen this? What do you think? What’s your response? And the point that I continually make because the point I continue to make is as a lawyer, one of those hosts should know it’s very easy to prove someone guilty when only the prosecution gets to make their case. When the defense never gets to put forward their theory. When you don’t get to cross examine any witnesses, when you don’t get to poke holes in anything or present the thing that they are completely omitting and leaving out sure they can find lots of testimony of people claiming that what Hiram read was 132. But they’re ignoring even more people who said that it wasn’t right. And, and that’s, there are so many things. So that’s the case we’re going to start making when we get called conspiracy theorists as we did, the thing that I found that just went right through my head is right now, we have a presidential candidate who is making a serious play for the presidency who himself says my uncle and my dad were killed by the CIA, not by Lee Harvey Oswald or somebody else, right? That is where the term conspiracy theory came from was to get rid of people who were arguing against the Kennedy assassination. So, you know, when they call you a conspiracy theory, maybe instead they should look at your case. These, they, they’re not mounting an effective case because they don’t understand our case at all. They’re just going with the same worn out arguments. And the other thing I wanna say is I believe one of them said something about you can’t swing a stick in Utah without hitting someone who believes that Joseph wasn’t a polygamist. And I thought, well, there you go. What, like the conspiracy is working?

[11:19] Jeremy Hoop: When did that happen? When did that? I

[11:21] Michelle: thought it was said early in the early in the podcast. Maybe I’m misremembering. I heard it somewhere else.

[11:27] Jeremy Hoop: When did this change? That’s a phenomenon, by the way,

[11:30] Michelle: right? Which shows how effective truth is when people are willing to say it, which I think it’s not that we are conspiracy theorists, it’s that we are saying things that people I have not been able to hear before we are bringing forward the evidence. We’re finally starting to mount the defense when all there’s ever been is the prosecution, right? And it’s amazing how effective it can

[11:51] Jeremy Hoop: be. Absolutely. I will tell you, I am still open to Joseph being a polygamist. I don’t care if the truth is on that side and they might laugh at me for saying that, but that’s the absolute truth. I once believed he was, I once taught it, I once in a sense promoted it in terms of um if it would come up in conversation and uh in terms of being a true doctrine, I thought it was the truth and I believe Brigham Young and what he would say about it. And then when I examined those things, I changed my mind, I can change my mind back. But so far in all of this examination, and I’ve examined everything they’ve talked about and much more that they haven’t addressed. There is nothing that I can find that, um, that has convinced me otherwise. And so that’s what we’re going to be examining. And I will, I’ll say this one last point. You know, my mom used to say, when you start going after someone’s character, you start, you know, calling them names, you’ve lost the argument. So I would just, you know, invite people who call us those gentle little names to remember that. Let’s address the substance of what we’re saying.

[13:03] Michelle: I also want to point out right from the beginning, they stated the same old thing that the reason that we believe Joseph wasn’t a polygamist is because we need to, we’re desperate to have Joseph be the good guy. And that is, and that we’re not able to change our mind. Like anyone who knows me knows that I, you know, my whole story, I’m very willing to change my mind. And I, like we talked about last time I came to Joseph being innocent, kicking and screaming, I did not want to lose all of credit. I did not want to go here. I didn’t. And, and I, all I care about is the truth truly. So when they start out by attributing motives and desperate need, I would say that actually, it’s much more the opposite. Those who hate Joseph who have left the church, who are so much against him, need him to be guilty of all of this. So it’s harder for them to look at the evidence honestly.

[13:55] Jeremy Hoop: So I would ask you, why do you, why do you need him to be a polygamist? Why do you need that do you need it or, or are you open to the possibility that he wasn’t? What does it mean if Joseph wasn’t? And Brigham was, what does that mean?

[14:12] Michelle: That’s something for everyone to consider independent.

[14:14] Jeremy Hoop: And if you can’t acknowledge the possibility based on the things that we have been presenting and will present if you have read the prices, uh, books on Joseph Smith and you just dismiss them. I don’t know that I can have, um I don’t know if we can have an honest conversation because if you simply dismiss those as hack arguments, I don’t agree with everything, every characterization or every point they make in their books. But the sourcing is absolutely astonishing and it must be put alongside Todd Compton, Brian Hales, it must be. And if you don’t, and you don’t acknowledge those sources along with a lot of others that they, that they haven’t found. If you don’t acknowledge those things, then you are not being fair and honest in your assessment of the facts merely because you want to protect something merely because you want to believe the women or be because you, because you, you no longer want to uphold anything about the institutional church, which that’s not my, that’s not my, I don’t have a dog in that fight.

[15:12] Michelle: Well, and, and I just have to respond to this to about believing the women because I’ve addressed that several times and I get really uncomfortable when people start setting them themselves, putting themselves on a moral high horse saying I am defending the women that upsets me like I’m shaking now just thinking about it. I love women. I am a defender of women. I support women. I believe women, I live to women. And I also look at when women are being victimized and being made to say things in an an unfair system. So I’m not just going to believe all polygamist women right now in the things that they are forced to say by the systems that they are in. And I’m going to look at Emma’s words and Emma and Joseph’s correspondence and take Emma seriously. So I’m so tired of people claiming they believe women when they ignore any woman whose claims aren’t convenient to them. I am so tired of people setting themselves up on this moral high horse with so much hypocrisy. Do not use women to prove your point while claiming to be an advocate for women, makes me really mad. So anyway, let’s get into it, Jeremy, let’s, let’s hit it.

[16:23] Jeremy Hoop: Ok. So today I’m gonna share my screen with you and, and I want to walk you through some things today, we’re going to walk through a number of the, the things that Brigham and Hebrew said, and we’re going to examine them and see if we can come to a conclusion about the two of them and whether or not we should treat them as reliable witnesses because really this is what we’re talking about are the people who said what they said, reliable or not. So there are a number of people that we can document that told provable lies or blatant inconsistencies, things that are so inconsistent as to strain credulity that it makes it really difficult I think for the honest observer to say, I don’t know that, that I can trust their story and then which part of their story do you trust? OK. We’re gonna start with the two main culprits Brigham in Hebrew, they told two tales about their involvement in the beginnings of this revelation. And it just so happens that both of them knew about this whole deal long before Joseph ever said a word. And then what does that mean? They were bosom buddies. They basically grew up together. They lived in the same town together in New York. Um They learned the gospel together, they con converted at the same time. Basically, they served missions together. They were connected at the hip. And uh I’m gonna read a statement, couple statements from Hebrew about his feelings toward Brigham later. But these, these two cannot be separated.

[18:11] Michelle: Can I just, can I just say what a big deal that is because none of us know that none of us know that Brigham and Heber were these bosom buddies before the church, right? That blew me away when I learned that. And it’s really, really important. The church didn’t bring them together, they came to the church together and then we’re mission companions. Like it’s amazing.

[18:35] Jeremy Hoop: So, they’re from the New York area close to Boston. Um And, and we’ll see in maybe later episodes that, that their, their influence with various sects in that area, like the Cochran nights and others, there’s a lot of polygamy stuff going on, spiritual wifey stuff going on before Joseph has ever says a word and they have a testimony of these principles. Long before Joseph ever ever says a word. I would ask the people who say that Joseph was the originator to deal with that. If they both admit that they knew about this and believed in it before Joseph ever says a word. What does that mean? And this is from Stanley B. Kimball. Um He writes, he’s uh the grand, great, great, great grandson of um Hebrew. He writes for over 39 years. Brigham Young and Hebrew C. Kim Kimball were as close and dedicated to a common cause as any two men could be. This friendship is so enduring and intense that it may be unique. One is drawn to the classics or the Old Testament for such parallels as Damon and Pithey Castor and Pollux and David and Jonathan. He’s a little grandiose in his, in his uh comparisons. But even these friendships, although

[19:46] Michelle: there is a quote, there is a quote about Hebrew that Hebrew makes about um Brigham that did make me think of David and Jonathan. We’ll get to it.

[19:56] Jeremy Hoop: But even these, even these friendships are not comparable for, they were of much shorter duration. World history offers few if any good analogs. Certainly the friendship of Brigham and Hebrew was unique in Mormonism. Well, let’s first examine their story. So Brigham told at least five different tales, but he kind of goes back and forth because he, he tells one consistently sort of in, in little snippets and then more fulsomely in 1874. But he goes back and forth depending on his audience in 1865. Uh in a talk in the Salt Lake bowery, he said, polygamy did not have its orig origin with Joseph Smith, but it existed from the beginning so far as I am concerned as an individual, I did not ask for it, I never desired it. And if I ever had a trial of my faith in the world, it was when Joseph Smith revealed that doctrine to me and I had to pray incessantly and exercise faith before the Lord until he revealed to me the truth. And I was satisfied. Ok. So bookmark that the narrative is Joseph told him about it and he gives kind of a standard answer that Hebrew gives that others give, it was such a trial of my faith when I heard Joseph tell me this. Ok. So bookmark that trial of my faith, such a trial of my faith in the world Ok. Well, then in 1866 he says, do you

[21:22] Michelle: have, do you have the quote of he desired the grave? Is, are you getting to that one that he envied the corpse? I

[21:28] Jeremy Hoop: don’t, I don’t have that one, but that’s in another talk that he gave. Um, I

[21:33] Michelle: think that it’s important. These are the, and to address the fact that these are the only quotes we know because these are the only ones in any of our manuals that we’re ever taught. Brigham did not want polygamy. He would rather be dead. That’s the narrative we’ve been taught. And those are the only quotes we know, OK.

[21:50] Jeremy Hoop: But in consequence, but in consequence of the wickedness of the Children of men and the consequence and consequent inability, they possessed to receive heavenly things. He could not impart what was made known unto him, Joseph of the Lord. I was with him several years before I pretended to open my mouth to speak at all. But I would constantly watch him. And if possible learn doctrine in principle, beyond that, which he expressed myself. Brother Kim Kimball and others were with him when he received revelation, don’t know what revelation he’s talking about. Maybe he’s talking about the polygamy one don’t know. And when the first council was organized, an angel never watched him closer than I did. Now, I want to pause here. Brigham is constantly speaking about how he learned from Joseph to make him capable of doing what he’s doing now. And you’ll notice this in a, in another quote, uh, an angel never watched him closer than I did. And that is what has given me the knowledge I have today. I treasure it up and ask the father in the name of Jesus to help my memory when information is wanted. And I’ve never been at a loss to know what to do concerning the kingdom of God. I knew of the doctrine of polygamy by revelation of myself while I was in England before it was revealed to me by Joseph. So he just lets that just leak out. And he does this. If you search the, the complete discourses of Brigham Young, he just leaks this out on occasion. He’s starting to basically say, yeah, I knew about it. I knew about it. But then he says um in 1865 to the vice president candidate Schuler Koufax who was running for uh for vice president, the revelations of the doctrine and covenants. This is Schuler writing in his journal, the revelations of the doctrine of covenants declared for monogamy. But that monogamy was later revelation commanded by God to Him, Brigham and a few others and permitted

[23:35] Michelle: a later. That’s right. You said monogamy, polygamy was a later revelation. Thank

[23:40] Jeremy Hoop: you. Sorry. Uh The, the doctrine of covenants declared for monogamy, but that Brigham said that polygamy was a later revelation commanded by God to him and a few others and permitted and advised to the rest of the church. Ok. So that’s the beginning of him saying, well, it was given to us later then in the Chicago Times and the New York Times in 1869 in July, they reported Brigham saying in July 1869 until we came to Utah, the subject of polygamy was not broached, it was not until we had a revelation on the subject. Also as to our institutions, we know we are right? And polygamy when which you object to was not originally a part of our system, but was adopted by us as a necessity after we came to Utah. Now, why is he saying that in that period of time? There’s a lot of I’m the man and I’m the one who you need to look to and depending on the audience that he’s speaking to, he seems to indicate different things about who’s really in control of the whole system or who’s really the, the the man to look to for its genesis.

[24:54] Michelle: The more I’ve, the more I’ve studied of Brigham, the more I just sense deep narcissism, right? And, and I think that there’s kind of a sense of, I don’t want to be in Joseph’s shadow. I want to be the guy that brought, you know, and, and part of him is probably dying that Joseph gets credit for polygamy when Brigham knows that Joseph doesn’t deserve credit for polygamy. So he really wants the credit that is due him. Do you know what I mean? It’s kind of killing him to be in Joseph’s shadow on his own doctrine that he know Joseph always opposed and he can’t help but just let that come through because he wants the credit. We’re

[25:36] Jeremy Hoop: going to examine that specific thing uh more in depth here in a minute. Then in 1874 he says, while we were in England, I think this is 1839 1840 the Lord manifested to me by visions and his spirit things concerning polygamy that I did not then understand. I never opened my mouth to any persons concerning them until I returned to NAVOO. Joseph had never mentioned this. Joseph had never mentioned this. There had never been a thought of it in the church that I knew anything about at the time, but I had this for myself and I kept it to myself. And when I returned home, and Joseph revealed these things to me. I then understood the reflections that were upon my mind while in England. But this was not until after I had told him what I understood. So in this account, now remember the bookmark, Joseph tells him he desires the grave and it’s the trial of his faith until the Lord calms him down and says, it’s, it’s true, Brigham, it’s true. In this account, the Lord tells him, Brigham, I’ve got an idea for you. You, you can be like Abraham of all. I’m, you know, I’m putting thoughts in Brigham’s mind but you can be like Abraham Isaac, even though Isaac didn’t practice polygamy and Jacob and Moses, even though we don’t know, there’s no evidence that Moses practiced polygamy and David and Solomon and you can have many wives and concubines go tell Joseph

[26:54] Michelle: about it. Yeah. Well, and even in this one, it’s I didn’t tell Joseph, but then I did tell Joseph like he’s contradicting himself all

[27:05] Jeremy Hoop: that Joseph. Joseph didn’t tell me. And then I told him and then when Joseph told me, then, then I was confirmed what I already knew and we’re going to examine a little bit more about this here in a second. But you can see Joseph tells him first, he’s mortified, then accepts it. It didn’t happen until they came to Utah. It didn’t happen until after they had a revelation out here. It came to him, Brigham, it came to him and others who are the others. It happened to him in England and then he told Joseph about it. What is it, Brigham? Which one is, what’s the, what’s the truth? And, and what um what can we rely on? So,

[27:41] Michelle: so according right now, according to both Joseph Smith and Brigham, young polygamy did not originate with Joseph Smith. Can we just acknowledge that their testimonies agree on that point? That’s something that’s important to those for those who are make, you know, not looking at this evidence to consider. And

[28:00] Jeremy Hoop: he says that he says that at least that I found, I think four times, I learned it in England throughout the, the, the um complete discourses of Brigham Young. And so this is, he says it not just that one time, but in a number of places, I I showed you one of the other ones, the the question is why is he telling so many different narratives? I think that depends on his audience and who he’s speaking to when he’s familiar with them.

[28:26] Michelle: What’s needful at the moment? He, he kind of just says, what’s needful at the moment? That’s a tendency he has.

[28:32] Jeremy Hoop: That’s exactly right. He is a, he even

[28:34] Michelle: acknowledges that he even acknowledges that when he says I can come up with any scripture at any time. And, and what does he say? Orson Pratt can come up with a scripture even better than I can, but I can come up meaning he can just make something up and claim it scripture whenever he needs it. We even have him on record as

[28:50] Jeremy Hoop: good as scripture. What I say. That’s exactly right. So knowing this, knowing that, that he has an evolving tale or a um a tale that morphs according to his audience, then let’s keep that in mind as we examine what he says about Emma Hiram and Joseph. And then let’s ask ourselves why? And then can, can we believe what this man is saying later, we’re going to examine William Clayton. We’re going to examine Joseph Kingsbury and what they said about the genesis of this revelation because it ties into what Brigham Young will say about it. So can we believe Brigham, can we believe William? Can we believe Joseph? Is it just one giant conspiracy? And by the way, what’s a conspiracy? It’s people who are agreeing on an action to uh to, to create something to, to create a final end or something that they want to accomplish. Conspiracies happen. And if you don’t acknowledge that they happen,

[29:46] Michelle: I’ve read a book that calls them, yeah, I’ve read a book that calls them secret combinations, I believe. Right. So,

[29:53] Jeremy Hoop: yeah, conspiracies actually happen to people. OK. So first in 1855 Brigham said a number of things about Emma and there’s a reason why until uh I think it was Gordon Hinckley, President Hinckley. Um Emma was persona non grata in the LDS church. Um She had been ruthlessly attacked and, and she was not thought well of in the LDS community until recently really. And even recently, none of this is acknowledged. And so I want to examine some of the things that he said about her and some of this come starts with William Clayton by the way. Um But Brigham really amplifies it. So in 1855 he says, um he, Joseph Smith will not always feel as he does. Now, Emma tried to poison her husband and was connived with the mob that did kill him. She was in league with the mob that killed her husband. He just lets this, this slip out. Ok. By the way, as, as we’re talking about, as we’re talking about Brigham, I want, I want to keep something in mind. He’s speaking in a large auditorium. This is a

[31:12] Michelle: general conference. He’s using his,

[31:15] Jeremy Hoop: this one’s not general conference. This is not general, this is a meeting, this is a council meeting. But imagine Brigham standing up for a large audience. Well, now we we have a hard time imagining this because of the the leaders in the LDS church speak with a microphone and they speak with hushed tones or measured tones and you don’t have to speak loudly, but in those days, they had to speak loudly so people could hear them. But imagine coupling the words with uh a theatrical and projected volume. People would want to speak theatrically in those days, if you were a charismatic speaker, which Brigham was, you would, you would really deliver the message. And so as I’m, I’m not going to deliver it that way, but as I am, imagine him saying these things in front of a group of people, there was a New York, there was a New York Times I believe article uh in 18, in the 18 sixties, they came out when the Smith Brothers had come out to Utah and were converting people away from Brigham Young. And they, they witnessed kind of the, the back and forth between the Smith brothers and the, and the church leaders. And they noticed they, they commented on how the church leaders would use their rhetoric to whip as they called it, whip the audience into a frenzy. Basically, they would, they would use the the martyrdom of Hiram and Joseph like a whipping boy and, and, and they would, they would play on the emotions of the audience a lot and that’s at least their reporting. Um But imagine Brigham Young saying these words so

[32:37] Michelle: well. And I just, I want to point out, I just barely read a quote yesterday of Brigham giving a sermon and it said that he made the mountain shake just like the voice of the Lord from Mount Sinai. Like like he would, he, well, he was the lion of the Lord because he would stand at the pulpit and roar, right? Like that was one of the reasons. And so yes, this would be delivered it with, with a raised voice, with raised emotion, with a reddened face, shall we say

[33:06] Jeremy Hoop: and pounding of the pulpit and all kinds of cursing because Brigham was, was known to, to drop lots of uh what we

[33:15] Michelle: down, not just

[33:17] Jeremy Hoop: that um I won’t say it because of your audience, but he would say lots of things that would, would be highly offensive in Sacrament meeting. So he s he said, Emma tried to poison, her husband was connive with the mob. Then later on, he said in 1859 um again, he observed that Emma had tried to poison Joseph at the table and had some sought to injure him in other ways. So he keeps mentioning this poisoning. Then in 1860 he says, these people are anxious for revelation. Uh keep Brother Watt to write the revelations. Um All God’s servants say his revelation, read my servants. I if, if you want revel want written revelation, all you Old Mormons believe in little Joseph. By the way, he would constantly dress uh uh uh address all these old Mormons who were waiting for young Joseph Joseph the third to finally take his rightful place as the leader of the church. There was this belief amongst the, the, the latter day saints in Utah, a certain segment of them that one of the sons of Joseph and likely Joseph Smith the third would take his place rightfully because there was some belief um amongst a lot of people, both uh who followed Brigham and people who did not, that Joseph had chosen Joseph Smith. Uh Junior had chosen Joseph the third to be a successor. Well, that’s what he’s addressing here. All you Old Mormons believe in Little Joseph. I, I want you to believe that he is the son of Joseph, the prophet who is the son of Joseph, the patriarch. I want you should believe in Friedrich just as much as I as in Joseph, in Alexander, as much as in Frederick, not Friedrich. They will never leave the church. No, never. They are the seat of Joseph and God will bring them to this kingdom. They, they have served Emma as long. She will go to hell. As sure as her name is Emma Smith. So this is the beginnings of what he’s about to say and you’ll notice a theme. He, he constantly has to address this in front of the audience that don’t look to Joseph’s family. You need to look to me. Um And again, in 1863 Joseph himself testified before high heaven more than once that she had administered poison to him, she gave him too heavy a dose and he vomited it up and was saved by faith. So this is a, a narrative he wants people to believe. Then in 1866 this is a critical time. Why? Because the Smith brothers in the early 18 sixties have had some success um with converting hundreds of people away plus the government. Uh And why are they converting them away? Because they’re converting them on the notion that their father was not a polygamist that he did not originate the, the Brigham doctrines of polygamy, Adam, God blood atonement, et cetera. And, and really the endowment. And so they were having success, converting people away. So now they have to formally address it and try to crush it. And just prior to this, um, one of Joseph’s sons, Alexander had been visiting the territory. So he says I will now speak on this subject, which I thought to notice for the benefit of a few who are inclined to be giddy headed, unstable in their ways and enthusiastic about something which they do not understand or imagine Brigham starting to get worked up. He’s gonna, he’s gonna be measured. At first, you are already apprised of the fact that a son of Joseph Smith, the prophet was here in our city. Not long since Joseph Smith’s first son only lived a few hours. Then Joseph commonly called young Joseph was born then Frederick, then Alexander, it was Alexander who was in our city lately. The people have not heard me say anything about him one way or the other. I will relate a few facts. The sympathies of the latter day saints are with the family of the martyred prophet. I never saw a day in the world that I would not almost worship that woman. So by the way, this is, this is the exact cut in the actual documents. So whatever they were writing, I think they skip some segments of what he said. But this is the next thought in the complete discourses of Brigham Young in this talk. I never saw a day in the world that I would not almost worship that woman. Emma Smith. If she would be a saint instead of being a devil, I feel. So today, there is no good thing in a temporal point of view that I would not withhold from her because he’s so generous. He’s so kind, especially to those of his own family who, who disappoint him anything that is in my power to do for her. I would willingly do with all my heart. And with an open hand, there are a few here that knew Joseph Smith, the prophet and some of them are apostatizing from the work which the Lord commanded him to found to run after young Joseph, the second son of the prophet who has no more authority to set himself up as a president and teacher of a people than any other man has in the sectarian world who possessed nothing of the priesthood of the most high young Joseph Smith does not possess one particle of this priesthood, the 12 apostles and the other authorities of this church would have been exceeding glad if the prophet’s family had come with us. When we left Nauvoo for the valleys of these mountains, we would have made cradles for them if they had required them and would have fed them, fed them on milk and honey. Emma is naturally a very smart woman. She is subtle and ingenious and she has made all her Children believe that myself. Brother Kim and the other members of the 12 laid the plot which terminated in the death of the prophet. Hm. That’s interesting. This charge is especially laid to my cell at the time that Joseph was killed. I was in the city of Boston. A number of 100 miles away from the scene of the martyrdom. She has made her Children inherit lies to my certain knowledge. Emma Smith is one of the damnedest liars I know on this earth yet there’s no good thing I would refuse to do for her if she would only be.

[38:56] Michelle: Can I just point out right here. Brigham loves to claim his generosity. He does that so often. The problem is he never is generous when given the chance, he always does this. And we know exactly what he did because, well, I talked to you about this before. One of the white widows did come right. Mary Fielding did come into the valley and she was impoverished. She was in desperate dire straits, so poor and then she died, right? And Whitney and I talked about this and her son was left pretty much uncared for until he was sort of groomed by Brigham and Hebrew because they needed a Smith in the 12 to combat the other Smiths to have some lineal descent there. Right? So I just want to point out that when he’s saying there is nothing we would not have done, we would have made cradles for them. We would have done this. No, that’s not true at all. You didn’t ever do that. When you had the chance, you could have taken care of Mary and you didn’t.

[39:57] Jeremy Hoop: So as the master of speaking out of both sides of his mouth, he is certainly doing that here and he goes on to say, no, go ahead. Go ahead.

[40:08] Michelle: Well, also I just want to say how, like I just want to draw a little bit more attention to the fact that he is feeling the need to defend himself against the possibility that he was behind Joseph’s death. I think that is fascinating so often it is people’s um defensiveness that reveal what they’re really feeling. You have a need to be defensive about, right? No

[40:31] Jeremy Hoop: one. Let’s be clear. I, I don’t know that, that, that neither of us would, would say that we know that Brigham Young had anything to do with Joseph’s death. However, it’s an interesting thing.

[40:41] Michelle: This makes me suspicious that because I know that I know that Joseph Smith the third and Emma were careful not to, they didn’t like they, as far as I understand the R LDS church, they weren’t preaching that Brigham killed their father, like they went out of their way to not do that. So

[40:59] Jeremy Hoop: that for accusations, for example, from William Smith and the Smith family, Samuel Smith’s daughter and his, and his um his wife who believed that Samuel was poisoned by Hosea Stout and Hosea Stout was notoriously involved in a number of nefarious things and was considered to be one of Brigham Young’s hitmen. Yeah,

[41:25] Michelle: here is saying specifically I Brigham is saying I have been acute primarily me that just ok. So anyway, continue, I just think that’s fascinating that he feels the need to defend himself. Well, Brigham, what are you trying to? It’s like when your child, you know, mom, I didn’t, I didn’t eat all the cookies. I didn’t mom. You know what I mean? It’s like, ok, let’s go see if you eat all the cookies. Right. Right. Yeah.

[41:50] Jeremy Hoop: So he continues, but she will continue in her wickedness. Not six months before the death of Joseph, he called his wife to a secret council and there he told her the truth and called upon her to deny it if she could. He told her that the judgments of God would come upon her forthwith if she did not repent. He told her the time she undertook to poison him. Here we go again. He told her that she was a child of hell. This is Brigham quoting Joseph. Ok. And it’s

[42:20] Michelle: also, it’s also amazing to me how many private conversations Brigham was there for Brigham just happened to be there as Joseph is railing on Emma calling her without a doubt the most wicked woman in the world. And I do have to say we know a lot about the character of Emma and she was a remarkable woman and we know Joseph’s feelings about Emma from his own words from his own letters from his own mouth. So like this is so incredible meaning not credible in every possible

[42:54] Jeremy Hoop: Lucy Mac’s description, read Lucy Mac’s description of Emma. It’s, it’s astonishing. Um This

[43:01] Michelle: is in general conference. He said a lot of

[43:05] Jeremy Hoop: this is from the pulpit in the, in the most official of official setting and then consider also what kind of person Emma was to take in and raise the child that her husband Mr Bitterman had through an affair. What kind of woman does that? What kind of woman keeping her heart in that circumstance?

[43:35] Michelle: Keep in mind, Emma was pregnant at the time of Joseph’s death. So Brigham knows for a fact that Joseph is accusing her and she’s a child of hell, she’s the most wicked woman. And yet they obviously were still very close, right? Like it’s amazing and, and, and yeah, Brigham has many quotes of secret conversations that he just happens to know exactly what was said. That’s another pattern.

[44:04] Jeremy Hoop: So he Joseph told her that she was a child of hell and literally the most wicked woman on this earth that there was not one more wicked than she. He told her, Joseph told her where she got the poison, how she put it in a cup of coffee said he you got that poison. So and so and I drank it, but you could not kill me. Imagine Joseph saying this to her. I know when we know what Joseph when, when we know of the tearful departure, for example, from Carthage or to Carthage from the mansion house. And what and what he says in tears to her about raising his son to follow his footsteps and the letters that he wrote and how he would address her as his dearest dearest love.

[44:53] Michelle: What did he say? There? She is always in the moment my oh I can’t remember the adjectives. He uses unchanging. Yeah, he adored her. She sorry, this is what makes me so upset. It’s like no defend women. And yet we, we, we side with Brigham about Emma, this remarkable woman. It, this really is important. Ok.

[45:19] Jeremy Hoop: So he’s told this story now a number of times in public and this is the, this is the time where he tells it at least that we have recorded it most fulsomely and why, you know, why is he doing this? So he ends his talk on Emma by saying if there’s any latter day saints who wish to be destroyed, run after that family. Ah This is the reason and I will promise you in the name of God of Israel, I will promise you in the name of God of Israel. Ok. That’s a very bold thing to say. If you take the name of God in your lips and you do it imprudently and without authority, God calls that taking the name of God in vain as a cardinal sin. I promise you in the name of the God of Israel. You will, you will be damned if you follow that family, any person who will follow this man or that man who was wrong and refuses to submit himself to the ordinances of the house of God to serve him and keep his commandments will perish and all that will walk in that path will go to to assure and swift destruction. Young David Smith seems to be the pet of the company. He is heart and hand with his brother Joseph and with 100 others who are apostates from the truth, true faith of the gospel and who are one with the mob who who persecuted and slew the prophet. When Joseph, the prophet was killed, his wife, Emma was pregnant. Joseph said previous to his death, she shall have a son and his name shall be called David. And unto him, the Lord will look, I am looking for the time when the Lord will speak to David, but let him pursue the course he is now pursuing. He will never preside over the church, Jesus Christ, the latter day saints in time nor in eternity. So really the objective of this talk is to put down those old Mormons who think that

[46:57] Michelle: these things,

[46:58] Jeremy Hoop: these things, they remember them and they’re waiting for young Joseph to come take his rightful place. So he has an agenda beyond just uh disparaging Emma. It’s to destroy those who want to take power from him. And so I want to address this Joseph was poisoned. He was poisoned but not by Emma. So in on November 5th, 1843 in the Richard’s memo book, they call it Joseph’s journal, but it’s really Willard Richards memo book, um recording various events that are happening in the day at the time uh related to Joseph. Um on that day. Um there is uh there’s an entry that says Sunday, November 5th, 1843 wrote out with my mother and others for, for her health was taken suddenly sick at the dinner table, went to the door and vomited. Um All dinner jaws dislocated and raised fresh blood every symptom of poison. So when Brigham in 1845 begins to, he, he says in his own journal, we commenced revising that Joseph’s history in the office of Doctor Richards. Ok. This is 1845 Brigham and Heber and Willard Richards and William Clayton have gathered all the records from Joseph Smith and they’re beginning to edit his history in 1845. They have this record. He’s read through this by 1866. He knows this story. And so he’s got this at his fingertips and he, and he’s basically referring, I think probably to this. And there was another time when Joseph was poisoned um back in 1832 that Lucy Mack references, that’s also in an earlier journal of Joseph’s. So he’s got two references of Joseph being poisoned, but none of them are connected to Emma. In fact, on that day fifth of November 1843 we see at the bottom prayer meeting eve at the hall over the store, Joseph did not dress nor Emma because she’s with him. So, apparently,

[49:01] Michelle: well, Emma was a healer. She was an herbalist. She took care of all of the infirmities. Joseph, if he was poisoned, Emma would be the one healing him and taking care of.

[49:11] Jeremy Hoop: Very likely. And, and it’s very odd that there’s no mention of Joseph being cross or anything about Emma in this reference whatsoever. Um This is Brigham making up a story in order to suit his purposes. OK? So that’s Brigham on Emma. Now let’s examine what he said about Hiram. He’s gonna do his best to characterize Emma. Hiram and Joseph in certain ways all to meet a purpose. So he got done with Emma on the seventh of October 1866. Then the very next day he speaks about Hiram. And prior to that though, I want to set this up, um You want, we need to understand something about Brigham and how, what he tried to express to the people and how he tried to characterize himself. So in 1860 he says the following, I was once ashamed of one thing which I did while in Missouri in Zion’s camp. I got a revelation that God accepted our offering. I had the same thing revealed to me twice and that we should not go into Jackson County. I named this to some of the brethren a day or two before Joseph got a revelation on the same subject. I felt ashamed that I named it first. Now, that’s really odd.

[50:30] Michelle: Is that not just false humility? Like, oh, like he’s claiming I got it first. But I felt ashamed that I was more spiritual than Joseph.

[50:39] Jeremy Hoop: But it also plays into his, his doctrine, which is not Joseph’s doctrine, his doctrine that there is this immutable hierarchy of priesthood that, that, that we’ll see. It’s, it’s really a hierarchy of gods and that he had no right to speak it because Joseph was the mouthpiece, et cetera. And, and it’s, it’s goes into Brigham’s use of the word keys and how he has the authority to do various things, et cetera. So that’s why he is saying, I felt ashamed because he spoke out of turn because he didn’t have the keys to speak those things, right? I knew where we were going. And, and I now know when I, when we go to Jackson County, we should go from the West. I will now tell you all and you may write it down that all my preaching by the holy ghost is revelation. I told brother Joseph that he had given us revelation eno enough to last us 20 years. When that time is out, I can give as good revelation as there is in the doctrine and covenants. So he’s waiting four more years.

[51:32] Michelle: He’s, he’s setting himself up to say, you think, like I know I just read in his other talk where he said, I’m, I’m not a prophet like Joseph, I’m a Yankee guesser. But here he’s saying I got revelation even before Joseph did I have the spirit every bit as much as Joseph did. And my revelation is even better than Joseph’s

[51:51] Jeremy Hoop: and Joseph died in 1844. So he’s saying, hey, look, folks, you know, I’ve been doing this a long time. I’m, I’m fit for the kingdom. I’m fit to lead you. I know you’re hearing rumblings about the Smith Brothers and all this stuff and people leading you. But when four more years is out, 20 years, you can listen to what I say. It’s as good as scripture. And later in the same sermon, then Joe, then Brigham’s gonna start talking about Hiram. Ok. So remember he’s, he’s set himself up as a man worthy of revelation. And he says, Joseph once told me,

[52:22] Michelle: I think, I also think it’s interesting that really, we know that Emma and Hyrum were Joseph’s two closest confidants, right? And so Brigham has to take them both out so that he can keep his place as Joseph’s main confidant. It feels to me like that’s part of what he’s doing is jockeying for the place with Joseph and with God.

[52:43] Jeremy Hoop: So he’s gonna start out kind of gentle and then we’re gonna see what he, what he does later, Joseph once told me to go to his own house to attend a meeting with him. He said that he would not go without me. That’s interesting. I went and hire and preached upon the Bible in the book of Mormon and covenants and said, we must take them as our guide alone. He preached very lengthy until he nearly wearied the people out when he closed. Joseph told me to get up. I did. So I took the book and pi books and piled them up all on top of each other. I then said that I would not give the ashes of a rice straw for all those books for my salvation without the living oracles. I should follow and obey the living oracles for my salvation. Instead of anything else. When I got him, got through Hiram got up and made a confession for not including the living oracles. OK. So he gives kind of a, a sketch of the, of, of a tale he’s going to tell more at length later. OK.

[53:32] Michelle: This is also a pattern. He does the same thing with Emma. He starts out the tail and then it grows and builds and grows.

[53:38] Jeremy Hoop: Ok. So a month later, he says, um once Joseph told brother Hyrum uh that if he would suffer him to dictate, he would, he should lead the church to hell. And he would frequently sit and sneer at the remarks of brother Hiram, which were frequently delivered to a congregation when they were weary with the remarks of, of the preachers that had preached uh that had preceded him. So in the previous one, uh Hiram’s wearying people and this one, Hiram’s wearying people long winded, blow hard.

[54:12] Michelle: And Joseph would sneer at him. That’s insane. His brother who sat and held his leg and like, ok, it was the core of the church with him. Like anyone who hasn’t listened to Whitney Horning s interview I did about Hiram listen to that one as well and compare it to what Brigham is saying.

[54:31] Jeremy Hoop: So he, so he’s starting to put little digs in it. Hiram. Then 1866 this is that famous conference where he unloads on Emma the next day. This is what he says about Hiram. Well, the first he’s going to talk about Joseph Smith having a conversation with him. OK. So he says, um oops, where are we? Brother George Albert Smith uh spoke about Hiram Smith. Pardon me? He’s gonna talk about Hiram first and then he’s gonna speak about Joseph, bro. Brother George Albert Smith spoke about Hiram Smith. Now, Hiram was as good a man as ever lived and he was no better a man than his brother Joseph Smith. His integrity was of the highest order. So he’s buttering him up first. OK? But his ability was not equal to Joseph’s. Hiram was a positive man. Joseph was a comparative man. Don’t even know what he means by that regarding

[55:22] Michelle: everything here being the big man waxing eloquent. This is you know what? You can just kind of get a sense of who he was. OK. Joseph

[55:31] Jeremy Hoop: was a comparative man regarding everything according to the circumstances of the case and every person according to the in to the intrinsic worth. Hiram did not know enough to do this. I think he’s saying Joseph had a lot more discernment than Hiram. I used to think and think now that an angel dwelling in the presence of the father and the son possessed no more integrity in their hearts than did Hiram Smith. He used to think while he, while he lived, he was Joseph’s fast friend. Notwithstanding this, I had heard Joseph tell him that if the church was left in his leadership, he would lead it directly to hell again. Hiram will lead it to hell. He never appointed his brother Hiram to be his successor. Pause, he absolutely did. Joseph was given by revelation. If you believe Joseph’s revelations, the ability to choose his own successor. And what did he do? Hiram became core with Joseph while Joseph was alive. So if Joseph died, Hiram would take his place, Joseph was president of the church. He was actually the second president of the church, not Brigham. Young J. Hiram was the second president of the church and he was a prophet seer and revelator and named the Holy Spirit of promise to give the ceiling blessings to the entire church. And Joseph admonished the church because they did not respect Hiram in his position as core and as a prophet seer and revelator. And he admonished them to listen to him and give heed to Hiram’s words because Hiram had received his calling, an election hired Hiram had received the same blessings that Joseph had received. And so, so Brigham is absolutely incorrect here.

[57:09] Michelle: Also, also, we have quotes from other sources, numerous sources that predate this saying that Joseph said that if Brigham ever led the church, he would leave it, lead it directly to hell. So Brigham, my take on this, who knows? My speculation is that that bugged Brigham and in his defensiveness, he uses the like just like he used the poisoning but blamed it on Emma. He’s using the same thing that was said about him but saying that Joseph said it about there,

[57:36] Jeremy Hoop: there were, there were many affidavits sworn to um that they said that in, in, in nav wu they overheard on a number of occasions, Joseph speaking publicly and I don’t know if this is true because they were sworn in the 18 sixties, I believe or the 18 seventies, these affidavits said, we heard Joseph said um that if Brigham ever led the church, he would lead it to hell. So maybe he’s responding to that, I’m not sure, but uh or maybe maybe Brigham was there. In fact, one of the affidavits said Brigham was in the in attendance when Joseph said it. So, uh, maybe Brigham actually heard this and remembers it, it sticks in his craw and he’s got to get this out. So who knows? He never even thought of such a thing. And, and if my word is good for anything I can say of a truth that Joseph told me not three months before he was killed and I did not seek the information he gave me. We were talking upon counseling, governing and controlling, which is interesting that if I am moved out of the way, this is quoting Joseph, if I moved out of the way, you are the only man living on this earth who can counsel and direct the affairs of the kingdom of God on the earth. Now keep in mind that Brigham Brigham doesn’t say any of this when he’s jockeying for the 12 to leave the church, he he mentions that the 12 should have stewardship, not him, but the 12 because the the 12 have the keys, right? And can be the steward of the church until one of the, one of Joseph’s sons is old enough to lead it. So he’s again changing his story based on what he’s trying to accomplish.

[59:10] Michelle: Yeah. And it was only to be a steward to be a placeholder. That’s he wasn’t even called the president until after this all happened until,

[59:18] Jeremy Hoop: until three years after that. And so in which case, there was no president of the church for three years. He continues. When he said this to me, we were walking up by the old burying ground where Brother Wilfred Woodruff was building a little brick house and turning to the north around the corner where, where Willard Richards lived. He often said to me, I’m speaking upon polygamy. I, I shall die for it. And I would as leave as die for it. Uh uh as leave, die for it as not, it is the work of God. And he has revealed this principle and it is not my business to control or dictate it an odd phrase because Brigham certainly felt like he had the the business to control and dictate it to say it shall or shall not be. I know that brother George A Smith does not recollect these things as well as others do. So, George Albert Smith had been speaking positively about Hiram. OK. So he’s setting up this whole conversation to say Brigham, oh, Joseph loved me. Joseph told me that I would lead the church and that, that I was the man. OK, does not recollect these things as well as others do as well as men who were older than him and who was with Joseph more frequently, right north of the Masonic Hall in NAVOO. The ground was not fenced. This was in the year of 1842. There were some rails laid along the fence up some lots. Now he’s gonna talk about Hiram. Hiram saw me and said, Brother Brigham, I wanna talk to you. We went together and sat upon the rails that were piled up. He commenced by saying I have a question to ask you in the first place. I say unto you that I do not, I do know that you and the 12 know some things that I do not know.

[1:00:51] Michelle: Oh my gosh, this is the core of the church and Joseph’s brother, he’s not going to Joseph for the information. He’s going to Brigham to say, what is it that Joseph and you guys know that you won’t tell me. OK. Uh

[1:01:04] Jeremy Hoop: Continuing. He says, I can understand this by the motions and talk and doings of Joseph. And I know there is something or other which I do not understand that is revealed to the 12. Is this? So I replied, I do not know anything about what you know, but I know what I know. This is Brigham’s response. I don’t know what you know, but I know what I know. Then he said, then, then Hiram said, I have mistrusted for a long time that Joseph had received a revelation that a man should have more than one wife and he has hinted as much to me, but I would not bear it. Keep in mind this is 1842. OK? All right. 1842

[1:01:42] Michelle: you mean, he’s saying he’s saying this story happened in 1842. He’s saying this in 1866 about

[1:01:48] Jeremy Hoop: 1818 42. He has as much to me, but I would not bear it. We have heard him say hard things. I recollect in one council where Joseph undertook to teach the brethren and sisters, William Law was there and William and Hiram and a few others were against Joseph William law made this expression. If an angel from heaven was to reveal to me that a man should have more than one wife, if it were in my power, I would kill him. That was pretty hard. But Joseph had to submit for it. The brethren were not prepared to receive it. Brother Kimball and others were in that council. He often will put Hebrew in, in the same circumstance with him. Joseph had meetings in his house, time after time and month after month, every Sunday evening, Joseph was worn out with it. But as to his denying any such thing, I have never knew that he denied the doctrine of polygamy, which is crazy because he denied it all the time. Some have said that he did, but I do not believe he ever did. I reckon he’d have to be under a rock to not recollect that

[1:02:45] Michelle: he has to, he has to throw them a bone like, well, I know I’m just blatantly lying but I don’t remember. I

[1:02:51] Jeremy Hoop: remember it but maybe he did. I don’t think he did. I recollect one Sunday evening, Joseph came to my house at dusk and said I want you to go to my house and preach. So remember he’s just started to talk about Hiram and Hiram’s coming to him because Brigham’s the man and Joseph’s confided in, in, in Brigham and in Hebrew. And now Hiram really needs to get the truth from, from himself, from Brigham. I told him that I love to go to the meeting but did not want to go to his house. I knew what was going on. I knew that Hiram and William Marks and William law would be there to operate against the prophet Joseph. And therefore, I told Joseph, I would rather not go to his house. Finally said to me, brother Brigham, if you do not go with me, I will not go, I will not go home to my house tonight. I concluded with him. I need you,

[1:03:33] Michelle: Brigham, I need you with me. I can’t go by myself if you’re not there to take care of me. OK?

[1:03:41] Jeremy Hoop: Keep in mind this is in direct contradiction to the characterization of William Smith by the way, who basically paints Joseph as saying, you know, I think I’m gonna have particular trouble with Joseph and and it’s what we get this from William Joseph says, so William says about Joseph saying about Brigham. William says I was at dinner with, with Emma and Joseph and Brigham said it. Joseph said about Brigham. If he ever leads this church, he’s going to lead it to hell. I forgot to mention that in the previous comment. And so, so we have which characterizations do we believe? We believe Brighams or do we believe others?

[1:04:18] Michelle: Um Well, you can go through all of Joseph’s speeches and writings and see how he talks about Hyrum and see how much like Brigham. I mean, Joseph has a lot more to say about Hyrum than he has to say about Brigham

[1:04:31] Jeremy Hoop: has very little to say about Brigham. There’s almost nothing there, there’s just occasionally,

[1:04:38] Michelle: Brigham was gone. Most of the time Joseph and Hyrum were almost always together. They were together in prison, time and time again, they were, you know, and Brigham was in England and in back east and right. So it, it’s just, it’s, it’s amazing what he claims, but it is just a guy who’s used to having so much power to having a microphone and nobody can ever contradict him. That’s what happens.

[1:05:01] Jeremy Hoop: So continuing, he says, finally, he said to me again, brother Brigham, if you do not go with me, I will not go into my house tonight. I concluded I would go with him. So I did up my evening chores. We started to the prophet’s house. By the time we got there, the meeting had commenced. Hiram had opened the meeting and was preaching. When we went in, we went into the old log house. Hiram had the stand by the fireplace without any fire in it. We came up and sat on a board close to the stand. Joseph sat with his hands over his face all the time. Hiram was talking and preached and preached and preached like a person trying to pump water out of a dry well. So again, he started hinting at this, but now he’s really gonna let him have it. I will refer to his character as a preacher and you that knew him and heard him will understand it. Now, we have one of Hiram’s sermons, the notes from it. And you know, it’s very possible he did not like Hiram because of the things that he said publicly. And in that sermon, Hiram was, was fiery. He was feisty and it was on the subject of polygamy and how he would rather be friends with the devil himself than be friends with a man who preached a pack of stuff like spiritual wifey and polygamy. And so I don’t know, maybe Brigham was super offended because Brigham was on the stand that day when Hiram was preaching that stuff while Brigham was doing the very thing Hiram was preaching against. Maybe he permanently took offense at that. I don’t know, maybe this is what he’s referring to like a person trying to pump water out of a dry well, I will, will refer to his character as a preacher and you that knew him and heard him will understand it. When we had held a two hours meeting, then Hiram would get up on the stand and speak on the word of wisdom. He was a positive man and I have known him to talk an hour and a half and two hours on the word of wisdom. When I did not see any particular utility in it. By the way, previously, he had said something along the lines of, you know, Hiram preaches about the word of wisdom, but he’s, he’s preaching from the spirit of Hiram, not the spirit of the Lord. And you know, he likes to eat £3 of pork fat. So what, you know, what does he know?

[1:06:55] Michelle: Well, shouldn’t we point out, I guess Brigham really, really liked his alcohol and his tobacco and his, right. So he wouldn’t have liked that preaching either. And again, one thing, um I think I mentioned this before, but when you study narcissism, you learn that a key principle is you need to look at a narcissists accusations as their confessions, right? That’s a deep principle. And so it’s in all of this, I just am seeing this so all the time that he’s accusing Hyrum of preaching too long going on and on. When you read through Brigham Young’s sermons, these four hour meetings that they would have. And uh, I mean, all of this, he would just go like, it’s really, really amazing to read what he’s accusing other people of something

[1:07:42] Jeremy Hoop: stuck in Brigham’s craw from things that Hiram said there were things that Hiram published in the Times and Seasons about the word of wisdom, for example, where he Hiram believed. And I think we get this notion from Hiram that the hot drinks referred to tea and coffee, you know, um, that’s, that comes from him. Um, other people believe that hot drinks had to do with kind of fire water, you know, uh the burning alcohol. Um And there was a big debate over the word of wisdom for, for decades and decades until 1920 they did not live it like the latter day Saints live it today. And so

[1:08:14] Michelle: Brigham had distilleries and breweries, right?

[1:08:19] Jeremy Hoop: He carried coffee and whiskey with him across the plains. And um you know, as Rob Fathering points out in one of his videos, he made a considerable effort to rescue those over rescuing people, um which is really interesting. So, um back to when we’d held a two hours meeting that Hiram would get up on the stand and speak on the word of wisdom. He was a positive man and I’ve known him to talk an hour and a half and two hours on the word of wisdom when I did not see a particular utility in it. At this meeting in Joseph Joseph’s house. Hiram worked hard, he took the Bible, the book of Mormon, the Book of Doctrine and covenants and said, He, this is the law which God has given us by which to build up his church and kingdom in the last days. And everything more than these is uh is of man and is not of God. When he sat down, brother Joseph with his hands still over his face and nudging me with his elbow. He said, brother Brigham, now come get up,

[1:09:15] Michelle: save us. Brigham, save us.

[1:09:17] Jeremy Hoop: Now, I I can absolutely see Hiram preaching this, by the way, there was an article that they, that Brigham that I believe Joseph and Hiram published in the Times and Seasons saying if any man does anything contrary to the books of cannon that we accept, you can lay him down as an impostor. And, and so we don’t get the notion of the living oracles supersede the old revelations from Joseph Smith. We get that from Brigham Young. Ok. So then he says I got up and previous to getting up, I’d become pretty well charged and plenty of powder and ball and my lungs were not so weak as they are. Now, I could talk then as to be heard a mile, I felt like 1000 lions. I took the books and laid them down one by one with the Bible and said, there lies the Bible, the book of Mormon and the Doctrine and covenants, the revelations God has given through Joseph for the salvation of the people in the 19th century. Yet, I would not give the ashes of a rice straw for these three books so far as they are efficacious for the salvation of any man that lives without the living oracles of God. That was my text. And I think that before I got through the congregation was perfectly satisfied. I showed them that if we did not have the living oracles, we were no better than the sectarian churches of the world. After I got through Hiram arose and made a handsome apology and confessed his wrong, which he had committed in his excesses, excesses of zeal and asked pardon.

[1:10:40] Michelle: Oh my word. OK. So you can see this same story has grown immensely. And also it is so interesting that how self serving this is now that Brigham holds the highest position, he wants to be completely uncoupled from any restraint of any scripture or anything else. So

[1:10:59] Jeremy Hoop: he’s gonna, he’s gonna seal his point up in this, in this final part. This refers to the time that brother George A has spoken about Hebrew Kimmel then pipes up. I was there. Yes. And a good many, a good many others were there and heard that, heard the lion roar. He’s calling himself the lion. I will now go back, I will now go back to where I met Hiram. Now, by the way, it’s possible that Brigham stood up and did that. It’s possible Joseph was a meek man and, and, and Joseph would not always confront everybody about everything. I don’t know. It’s possible. He said those things and it’s possible Hiram said those things and that forever ST you know, uh bothered Brigham, who knows? So it’s possible he could be telling some truth with a lie. Um I am convinced there was something. So he says I will now go back to where I met Hiram. So now, so he had to take a diversion for a bit to to to wander off and to say, you know, here’s why Hiram relied on me. Here’s why he relied on me because he was kind of unstable. He, he didn’t understand the truths of the gospel like I do. OK, I will now go back to where I met Hiram. He says to me, I’m convinced that there is something that has not been told me. I said to him, brother Hiram, Joseph would tell you everything the Lord reveals to him. If he could, I must confess, I felt a little sarcastic against Hiram, although he was just as honest, an angel and as full of integrity as the gods. But but he had not the ability which Joseph possessed to see and understand men as they were. I took advantage of this. And I said to him, brother Hiram, I will tell you about this thing which you do not know if you will swear with an uplifted hand before God that you will never say another word against Joseph as though he had been and his doings and the doctrines he is preaching to the people. He replied, I will do it with all my heart. And he stood upon his feet saying I wanna know the truth and to be saved. And he made a covenant there never again to bring forward one argument or use any influence against Joseph’s doings. Joseph had many wives sealed to him. I’d spell my word. So then he says, I told Hiram the whole story and he bowed to it and wept like a child and said God be praised. He went to Joseph and told him what he had learned and renewed his covenant with Joseph and they were heart and hand together while they lived and they were together when they died and they are together now defending Israel. It is a mistake with regard to Joseph ever saying that Hiram would, would be his successor. Now back to that. Yeah. Yeah.

[1:13:27] Michelle: Yeah. He ordained stroke, slap stroke, slap. He

[1:13:31] Jeremy Hoop: ordained him a prophet and seer. There may be millions of prophets and seers and revelator, but none can hold the keys of presidency over the church of the Kingdom of God in all the world without the apostleship. Oh, he wasn’t an apostle. Therefore, they must hold the keys of apostleship to do this. I could not. Joseph wasn’t an apostle. Very strange. They must hold the keys of apostleship to do this. I could not well, meaning by calling. He was technically apostle by the, by the meaning of the word meaning one who is sent one who has come from the presence of God. They must hold the keys of apostleship to do this. I could not otherwise than to make these corrections. It is important that history should go down to out Children divesting man. He speaks weird of all mistakes as far as possible to our children’s divested of all mistakes as far as possible. Ok. So as we round the bend here, he’s gonna, he’s gonna end up with a, with a purpose. My memory with regard to a great many things, especially with regard to things which pertain to the Kingdom of God upon this earth is very retentive, vivid and quick on the things of God, on the building up of this kingdom, on the doctrines Joseph taught or on anything that pertains to the priesthood. I will not lay my memory aside to prefer any man’s living. I know how I receive the knowledge that I have got. I have seen the time I first saw Joseph that I had but one prayer and I offered that all the time. And that was that I might be permitted to hear Joseph speak on doctrine and see his mind reach out untrammeled to grasp the deep things of God. But in consequence of the wickedness of the Children of men and the consequent inability they possess to receive heavenly things. He could not impart, which was made known to him of the Lord. I was with him several years before I pretended to open my mouth to speak at all. But I would constantly watch him. And if possible learn doctrine in principle, beyond that, which he expressed myself. Brother Kimball and others were with him when he received revelation. And when the first council was organized and an an angel never watched him closer than I did. And that is what has given me the knowledge I have today. I treasure it up and ask the father in the name of Jesus to help my memory when information is wanted. And I have never been at a loss to know what to do concerning the kingdom of God. And he’s gonna say I knew of the doctrine of polygamy by revelation to myself while I was in England before it was revealed to me by Joseph. So once again, Hiram was not worthy. Hiram was unstable. Hiram was a blow hard. He was overzealous. He didn’t watch Joseph like I did. He didn’t know Joseph like I did and nor did he receive revelations before Joseph received them like I did. So you old Mormons don’t go chasing after that Smith family. Look to me, this is what he’s doing. Mhm And finally, he even doesn’t spare Joseph himself. So in 1858 he’s got to make up a, a narrative as to why Joseph was killed. He said I will deviate on my subject for a little and say a few words with regard to brother Joseph that some perhaps have not understood. If Joseph Smith junior, the prophet had followed the spirit of revelation in him, he never would have gone to Carthage. You understand that people shouting. Yes, yes, yes. A great many do and some do. Not. Many of the first elders of this church have a different understanding. They are under the impression that he went there. According to his own choice, Joseph intended to go west. He designed to raise a company to come to the very country we now occupy. He said, I can see life and liberty and revelation in that course. But if I return to give myself up, it is death and darkness to the full. I am a I am like a lamb led to slaughter and never for one moment. Did he say that he had one particle of light in him after he started back from Montrose to give himself up in navoo this he did through the persuasion of others. I want you all to understand that I want you all to understand that Joseph lost the spirit and he was persuaded by other people and he did things that I wouldn’t have done. OK. This is what Brigham is saying with regard to myself. Listen, what he, what he will say with regard to myself. I cannot say what I will do. I do not do not know precisely in what manner the Lord will lead me. But were I thrown into the situation, Joseph wa was I would leave the people and go into the wilderness and let them do the best they could. Will I run from the sheep? No, will I forsake the flock? No. But if Joseph had followed the revelations in him, he would have been our earthly shepherd today and we would have had heard his voice and followed the shepherd instead of the shepherds following the sheep. When the shepherd followed the sheep,

[1:18:14] Michelle: he, he is saying that it’s Joseph’s fault that he was killed. That’s what he is saying here, this is no different than William Law. Any, any of them that were saying he was a fallen prophet. He is saying, Joseph lost the spirit. He didn’t follow God. So it’s his fault. He was killed. Holy cow. Ok? Keep

[1:18:31] Jeremy Hoop: going. When the shepherd follows the sheep, it reverses the natural order for the sheep are to follow the shepherd. I want you to understand that if I am your earthly shepherd, you must follow me or else we shall be separated. As I told the people after Joseph’s death, they might cling to the 12 and receive salvation and be led in the way of truth and holiness or go to hell if they pleased for, we ask no odds of them. I feel. So today, that is the way I feel about many families in the church. A great many parents follow off their Children and men follow their women for a man to follow a woman in the sight of heaven, in the sight of heaven is disgraceful to the name of a man. It is a disgrace for parents to follow their Children. I am your leader, latter day saints. You must follow me. And if you do not follow me, you may expect that I shall go my way and you may take yours if you please, I shall do as the spirit dictates me. What does it now direct me to dictate to you? The policy of the Lord pursued it is the reason we were not killed in navoo, Joseph going to Carthage did not save this people. I have acknowledged the hand of the Lord in it from the beginning and say it was right. It was well enough, it was all well enough. But the people would have been just as well off as Joseph had left the country. They succeeded in killing him and thought they could kill me and brother Kimble and brother Hyde and all the 12 and the elders of this church. But I told them that they must keep their hands off. Brother Brigham, meaning, oh my word. I followed the spirit and that’s why they couldn’t kill me, Joseph on the other hand, lost the spirit and that’s why they killed him pretty astonishing what he said. I promised them that if they put their hands on me to take me prisoner, I would send them to all the hell across lots. God being my helper, I feel so this morning they have not done that. Neither have I employed lawyers. I do my own pleading with my God and my brother and I am unable to defend myself and they dare not put their hands on me. If they do not succeed in killing the first elders of this church, they will be cautious how they try to put their hands on you. But if they can kill us with impunity, they would take you by the hair of the head and draw a knife across your throats as they wish to serve me after the death of Joseph. So he’s now basically saying you need to preserve me because if you don’t, you’re next. That’s pretty heavy language. Then in 1869 he says the following, President Young alluded. This is um in the school of the prophets in the minutes, President Young alluded to Emma Smith’s prevailing on Joseph to take off his garments before he went to Carthage, Hiram Smith and John Taylor did the same. But Willard Richards being charged by J Joseph never put them off. Would not for this for, for said Joseph Willard the day will come when bullets will whistle by you on each side and men will fall on each side of you, but you shall be preserved. So remember following a woman leads you to hell. Following the sheep leads you to hell. Emma connived with the mob. Emma tried to poison him and now Emma persuaded him to take off his garments. Emma is the one responsible for him dying because he was persuaded

[1:21:36] Michelle: him dead. That’s right. Ok.

[1:21:40] Jeremy Hoop: That’s right. So, the question I have about Brigham Young. Yeah. Who is consistent? Who do you trust? Which stories of Joseph Emma and Hiram from their own lips and from the things that we can verify that they did and said, or the things that Brigham did and said, and the more you learn about Brigham, you recognize that when he’s speaking on the stand and when he’s acting in his various capacities, there’s all kinds of incongruities. There’s all kinds of what I consider fabrications, there’s all kinds of agenda that he’s exercising to maintain things that he has grabbed hold of namely power, property and people. And so when we hear these stories, we have to ask ourselves is Brigham credible. Now, let’s take a look at Hebrew,

[1:22:35] Michelle: OK. Everyone take a breath. OK. We’re gonna keep going. This will be a long one. So

[1:22:40] Jeremy Hoop: first of all, we need to understand a little bit about how Bieber viewed Brigham in the beginning, Stan uh Stanley Kimball writes that that, that Hebrew was really the leader in the beginning, but somewhere along the line, Brigham emerged and became the leader and Hebrew acquiesced and it was OK. And he said the following in Wilfred Woodruff’s journal in 1852 some have said that I was very presumptuous to say that Brigham brother Brigham was my God and Savior, brother Joseph was his God. The one that gave Joseph the keys of the kingdom was his God, which was Peter Jesus Christ was his God. And the God and the father of Jesus Christ was Adam Adam God doctrine here and in

[1:23:26] Michelle: that’s so cool. The Gospel is a pyramid scheme. Did you know that it’s like join the church and join Amway? Yay. OK. This

[1:23:34] Jeremy Hoop: is not an isolated statement. There are a number of times when, when Brigham is talking about how Joseph was a God to the people. OK? And, and they, they refer to themselves as gods and this comes vis a vis their second anointing endowment ceremony where in that ceremony, they, they pronounce upon themselves that they are gods and goddesses on the earth. And so this is part of their theology. Hebrew considers Brigham his God. And that’s by the way why Brigham Young was saying, I felt ashamed that I got a revelation before Joseph because I’m not the God, Joseph’s the guy.

[1:24:11] Michelle: And this is also how they support the idea of perfect obedience to your priesthood head to your priesthood leader. That that is a ph you

[1:24:21] Jeremy Hoop: hear a phrase from the men to the women all the time. Sister. Will you receive counsel? Will you do what I tell you to do. Are you gonna do what I tell you to do? Will you receive counsel? That is what that means. Are you gonna obey me? Because I have authority over you? OK. That’s, that is how these men exercised uh their, their Dominion and their unrighteous Dominion. He also said the following. I love brother Brigham Young better than I do any woman upon this earth because my will has run into his and his into mine. He said that in his, this is in his journal in 1857.

[1:25:02] Michelle: OK. That is concerning keep

[1:25:05] Jeremy Hoop: that in mind in everything else that he says. Now, Eber learns the principle. So we, we, we remember how, what Brigham said and how he learned it when he learned it. And the most consistent thing he said is I learned it in England even though he said different things. OK. So in September of 1866 this is um just before Brigham gets up in uh in conference, he says this is Hebrew, I can recollect. Well, when Joseph Smith, the prophet received revelation, um I received revelation from God through him myself once in the presence of President B Young and Willard Richards and it was thus saith the Lord. So pause, Joseph is talking to Hebrew Brigham and Willard thus sayeth the Lord revelation. OK. This is an important deal. Where is this revelation? I’d like to see it, first of all. Um So, apparently according to these guys, Joseph was in the habit of receiving revelations, he never wrote down, I guess. Ok.

[1:26:06] Michelle: Also that’s a strange group to have together. I don’t, do you know what I mean? Heber and Brigham and Willard, that might just sound normal to us. But that though they weren’t Joseph’s main associates. No,

[1:26:17] Jeremy Hoop: his main associates would be the first presidency. His associates would be the, with the Nabu State uh High Council, the, the High Council and the state president and, and, and then hire him as core, those would be his main associates because he had the most to do with them on a day to day basis. The to, for him to tell these guys fresh off the boat. This is by the way, right after they get back from England off their missions, right off the boat. He’s had very little time with them. The only time he’s really had with them is in Zion’s camp. Ok. Well, some buddies, ok. Brigham from 1832 onward is on missions with the exception really of Zion’s camp. And so, uh we’re supposed to just trust that, that Joseph has fallen in love with these men as his, as his best friends on earth. Ok. Even though there’s no indication of that in anything he has said or done. All right. Um I received a revelation from God through him myself once in the presence of President B Young Willard Richards and and it was thus saith the Lord, what was it? Now, I’m going to tell you it is right out as people do not believe that polygamy started with, with uh the prophet. It was thus saith the Lord for my servant Willard and Brigham and Hebrew to take more wives for this is pleasing in my God’s sight. And now they say we established polygamy. And when we came home in 1841 we had not been home over six days before Joseph called us together and laid these things before us the first time we knew of them. And then he received a revelation. And now I’m telling what I know. I, I if do not anybody believe it, try it. One of the greatest that is, I never felt more sorrowful. Ok? This

[1:27:57] Michelle: is him for the grave.

[1:28:00] Jeremy Hoop: This is his notes. But again, he tells the same tale. I hated this. This was awful. It was, but it was a revelation from Joseph to those three men, six days after they get back from England. But remember Brigham had said, and I’m gonna read the full quote what he says in 1874 we were driven from Missouri after Joseph went up there when we came to Navoo and the 12 were in England while we were in England. I think 1830 1918 40 the Lord manifested to me by visions and the spirit things concerning polygamy that I did not. Then understand, I never opened my mouth to any persons concerning them until returning to NAVOO. Joseph had never mentioned this. Now, remember Hebrew just said that Joseph said this to Brigham Heber and Willard in 1841 the first for the first time. OK. But now Brigham says, later, I learned it in England. Um Joseph had never mentioned this never been a thought of it in the church that I knew anything about at the time. But I had this for myself and I kept it to myself. And when I returned home and Joseph re revealed these things to me, I then understood the reflections that were upon my mind while in England. But this was not until after I had told him what I understood. I saw that, that he was after something by this conversation leading my mind along and others to see how we could bear this. This was in 1841 the revelation was given in 1843 but the doctrine was revealed before this. And when I told Joseph, what I understood, which was right in front of my house in the street as we were shaking hands and leaving, he turned and looked me in the eyes and says, he brother Brigham. Are you speaking what you understand? And are you in earnest, says, I, I speak just as the spirit manifest to me, says, he God bless you. The Lord has opened your mind. And as, and he turned and went off. Ok, let’s compare the two. So Brigham had already learned about polygamy in England by revelation. Brigham claims he was by himself. When Joseph tells him about polygamy. Ok. Hebrew says the first time this was told Hebrew claims he was with Brigham and Willard. When they first learned about this, he claims that there was an actual revelation receipt that thus saith the Lord revelation, that revelation doesn’t exist. And one more point, Willard Richards couldn’t have been there because on that date, Willard Richards was still sailing from England. He wouldn’t arrive, he wouldn’t arrive until weeks later. Now I know we can fudge dates, get dates a little bit wrong, but come on six days after you get off the boat and it’s not till quite a bit later that, that, that Willard’s there. Brigham’s alone. No, Brigham Heber and Willard are all there, but Willard’s not there. Which is it? So which of these tales do we believe?

[1:30:44] Michelle: Or is it Brigham’s later tale that it didn’t start until they were in Salt Lake? I mean, in Utah, right? He also has that one that no one that was only, it was only begun in Utah. So we have so many different versions.

[1:30:56] Jeremy Hoop: And once again, according to his daughter, um Helen Mar Kimball said in 1881 she said before my father ever heard that such a principle had been revealed to Joseph Smith. He said to some friends in my hearing that if quote, all things were be to be restored again as they were in the beginning, as the scriptures declare them the principle of a plurality of wives must also be restored. And he was heard to repeat the same when on his second mission to Europe. But he said he hardly expected it would come in his day. So once again, Brigham knew before and Hebrew knew before. Now, can we find evidence of Hebrew actually acting on this? There’s something that he, he mentions um in a number of his communications with his wife, he calls it the cause and this is his spelling, not mine, the cause I have embraced. We’re gonna find what that cause is. Now, if you don’t know what you’re looking at, you might think that the cause that he’s embraced is just the rest restored gospel. But as we will later see, there’s something that in a letter he writes, he calls the principle. Well, what do, what do polygamists call the plurality of wives? The principle, I believe that the principle, the notion of living, the principle starts with Hebrew maybe Brigham but Hebrew, at least in these early days in 1840 41 where he learns this principle that leads to, to, to salvation. So let’s examine a bit of what’s going on in England. Now he meets a doctor, uh uh uh a doctor Copeland who’s teaching him a bunch of stuff and he’s gonna refer to this, Doctor Copeland. And he, and he’s spending a lot of time with women often alone and especially a woman named Ellen Balfour Redmond. This is a convert in the eastern states who travels with Wilford and Hebert as a missionary companion of sorts to England with them for whatever reason. It’s very odd. On December 23rd, 1840 he writes, we went with Doctor Copeland and his wife to place uh to a place called that’s called Covent Garden. Spent the evening sister Copeland and myself got lost. So he gets lost with the doctor’s good wife. I don’t know, I don’t know if that’s Anderson or not, but it’s odd. He gets lost with a woman. The doctor and elder w that’s elder woodruff got lost from each other. We all come together again. Providentially, December 29th, 1840. This, remember he’s on his mission. He’s a missionary

[1:33:33] Michelle: and Jeremy. I just want to add, I just want to let me add one piece of context because I think we are all trained to, to minimize all of this. Right? Oh, that doesn’t prove anything. Can I just point out there is nothing like any, there nothing like this at all exists about Joseph Smith to do with any other woman. So if there were even one piece like this about Joseph Smith, they would say that’s it. Final proof that you right. So I just want to put that into context to think think if this were being said about Joseph Smith and another woman, how everyone would interpret it. So try to hear it with those ears instead of just thinking, instead of minimizing it. For some reason, we have this bias where everything that Joseph, you know, everything about Joseph points to sex and other women, but we can’t believe that about anybody else. So I just want to have everyone try to put that vision on. What if this were said about Joseph? What if this were in Joseph’s journal? How would

[1:34:30] Jeremy Hoop: it be? Absolutely. And, and anyone who wants to look at this, his journal is available in the church archives and you can read it for yourself. This is his mission journal. Um We’re gonna talk about journals later, especially William Clayton’s. We’re gonna talk about Willard richards’ journal, but this is his daily journal on his mission in England that’s been faithfully preserved. Well, almost, we’ll see. Yeah. And in December 29th, yes. Go ahead.

[1:34:55] Michelle: Just one more quick point since you brought up his his mission. Also, I think it’s important to put this in context of the sermons given specifically in that special 1852 conference where 132 was revealed where they are sending out missionaries. And they are explicitly told by Kimball and um Brigham Young to forget that they had wives, to forget that they had families to not ever think about them to. Right. So there’s a very strong idea that when you go on a mission you form new connections, you don’t preserve your old ones. That’s really interesting

[1:35:33] Jeremy Hoop: and would come home with new wives.

[1:35:35] Michelle: Absolutely. All the time. Yeah. And we compare that to Hyrum and Joseph telling people, like they preserved families and couples. They told, um, they started telling people you can’t come to gather with the church without your spouse, you have to be together and they worked with people like even um their two sisters that were in these very troubled marriages. They worked with those brothers in law. They tried to preserve marriages where Brigham and Hebrew just threw them away. So all of that provides important context of how Brigham and Young looked at missions and missionary.

[1:36:12] Jeremy Hoop: And I think it’s very likely that it was because of this formative experience. I have a feeling that, that the my, my sense is that Heber’s first experiences with spiritual wifey are here. I don’t, I can’t prove that. But, but from the things he’s writing to his wife and the things he’s writing in his journal from the this new stuff he’s learning. I believe this is a formative time for him. I imagine something. So I have, I have watched strange people receive revelations about modern day spiritual spousal. Let’s call it that OK, because I’ve watched women do this and I’ve watched men do this and I have watched what happens to their spirit when they embrace um this wanton sexuality. When they, when they finally start to practice it,

[1:37:00] Michelle: these false revelations, they diminish the

[1:37:04] Jeremy Hoop: person. It, it drastically changes them when they invite that spirit in. And I have a feeling that this is what’s happening to Hebrew. At this time, you can reading the letters between him and Vila are really fascinating because you can see hints and insinuations of the things that, that are going on in his heart. Ok. December 29th, 1840 Miss Past to take my sittings for a portrait. Sister Copeland come with me. So he’s now with sister Copeland again, by himself, by himself, not with his companion, by himself. January 4th 1841. Sister Mary Conan or Connor come in and made us a visit, combed our heads and cut our hairs. One letter from Susanna San Giovanna. He mentioned San Giovanna quite a bit. Don’t know why, but he’s writing this woman back and forth. She becomes a convert, but he’s, he’s writing her a lot. I want, I should come see her January 13th, 1841.

[1:38:02] Michelle: If Todd Compton were writing about this, this would be the list of wives, right? That’s as much evidence as they need to call someone Joseph’s wife. So,

[1:38:11] Jeremy Hoop: and, and, and you’ll notice in his journal there are contacts with the Brotherton, for example, Martha Brotherton and Parley P. Pratt takes a Brotherton wife. Martha Brotherton is the one who accuses Brigham and Hyrum and Joseph at different times of propositioning her and that Hebrew was in the room and um, apparently the Brotherton girls were beautiful, at least Martha was beautiful. Um, and apparently Heber had his eye on Elizabeth Brotherton and Parley married her. Anyway, this stuff begins here. You know, they’re, they’re scoping out these women and he takes one of them home, Sarah Pek Noon and then marries her. Um, so

[1:38:50] Michelle: II, I have to add one more quote. I’m so sorry. But do you remember when Hebrew, we have him quoted in various different sources saying to the missionaries that they’re sending out, don’t you marry the women? You bring them home and let us have our fair shot. Our have the first shot at them. They’re, they’re not your property, they’re the church property. So you bring them here first. So he does know what missions are four to,

[1:39:14] Jeremy Hoop: to be fair. That that was a reported in a newspaper. The, the, the quote that’s verified is don’t go pick the sheep, you know, from the flock. Um Without, without us being able to watch over the flock or something along those lines.

[1:39:28] Michelle: It’s the

[1:39:28] Jeremy Hoop: same sentiment. So I want to point out he starts to get his hair combed and cut by women. I don’t know if that’s a proper um interaction with a female in those days. But it seems a little odd to me that he’s having, they

[1:39:43] Michelle: always talk about how these were Victorian times, right? They always say that. So on the

[1:39:47] Jeremy Hoop: 13th of January 1841 I spent part of the day in writing, Doctor Copeland and sister Ellen. Um This is Ellen Balfour that I mentioned. Spent the afternoon with us and the evening received several letters, we taught the doctor many things that caused him to rejoice. What, what’s he teaching? I’m not sure, brother w spent the forenoon at the, at the artist January 14th. Next day, sister Ellen Balfour come to see us in the afternoon, spent our time in writing to my wife. So now she’s going to write a letter to his wife, which is interesting. We had a meeting in the evening. Sister Ellen spoke after me and gave her testimony. January 15th mentions a woman who may be Sarah peak noon, went to Miss S could also be Miss San Giovanni. Um Everyone else he names with full names, but this is really strange. He also calls her sister S or Mrs S in letters after she’s living uh living in Nauvoo as a polygamous wife. So he calls Sarah noon. Mrs. S got there half past 11 stayed 25 minutes, gave her the letter and received one. She gave me two silk handkerchief, one for me the other to elder. W we felt to stay home, to stay, to say in the name of the Lord, she shall receive an 100 fold in this life and eternal life, which is to come. We also ask the oh Lord in the name of Jesus Christ to open her way that she may obey the gospel. Be gathered design. Ok. We, I believe this is probably Sarah noon and he’s, he has, he’s offering a blessing to her, to this woman. Mrs S. It’s very likely this is Sarah noon. January 1884 1841 I took breakfast with Sister Griffith and dinner with Sister Ellen Bats in the afternoon, Sister Bats and sister Griffith went with me to see the barracks and soldier parade. So again, if this were Joseph, he’s spending an awful lot of time with women. Uh And by himself, January 20th, 1841 sister Mary Connor come and spent the evening, she combed and cut my hair again. Then January 21st, 1841 wrote one letter to Susannah L received one from her, one from Joseph Brotherton. He’s the brother um of Martha Brotherton who accused he Brigger Heber and Brigham of locking her in a room to convince her to enter in polygamy. He sent us the n the eight the number of the star sister Ellen come in the evening. So this is Ellen Balfour Redmond. She finished the letter to my wife. She stayed with me through the evening. Elder w went and preached. Now Wilfrid leaves. Sister Ellen combed my head and then the following has been attempted to scratch, be scratched out as you can see. But if you read it closely. It says we washed our feet and went to bed. I pointed this out previously, but this is right there in Hebrews Journal. Yeah, he is going to bed with a woman and again, ask yourself if this were Joseph mind you. This is in, this is in 1841 before Joseph supposedly ever says a word

[1:42:43] Michelle: right up right before they got home and got off the boat when Joseph revealed to them polygamy. And I,

[1:42:50] Jeremy Hoop: and I want to draw a connection. What’s John Bennett doing? What are the Cochrans doing? They’re practicing free intercourse between the sexes. They are practicing a form of spiritual connection or spiritual wifey that breaks the bonds of gentile marriages and allows or, or gentile connections and allows for them to basically say I marry you, you marry me. Let’s let’s go to bed. That’s basically what it is. Ok. And the washing of the feet as we’ll see here, I believe is significant. Now, some people said, well, there’s no connection to sex and washing of the feet. I think there is. And I think we can establish that continuing on um in January 26th and it came to pass that I started a company with elder woodruff doctor Copeland and wife Ellen Balfour and wife Ellen Balfour. The same Ellen as, as above Mary Connor, priest Croc. We went to Saint James where there was uh immense concourse persons. January 28th, I was writing to my wife and also to Amelia Rogers Dry 29th, I wrote a letter to my wife and one to Amelia Rogers sent him to elder young um and elder Clark. In the evening. Brother Allen came in, also sister Ellen, sister Ellen wrote me before in the evening. This is the next day January 30th. I was writing to H Smith February 1st received one letter from uh b young one from Eliza Brumby sister Ellen assisted me. So he’s spending a lot of time with this woman during this time. Ok. I don’t know if this is the first time he goes to bed with her or if it’s the last, but we know that he goes to bed with her once we washed her feet and

[1:44:17] Michelle: went to bed and then tried to scratch it out. That’s right.

[1:44:21] Jeremy Hoop: And on all these references, he he mentions on, on the third, the sixth, the seventh, the 10th, the 11th, the 17th, he’s spending time with Ellen Da for Redmond. Now this sounds awfully familiar. Don’t have time to go into all of this, but Clayton is doing William Clayton the year before is doing the exact same thing basically without reference to going to bed with a woman. But reference to having a woman wash his feet over and over again, a woman named Sarah Crooks, he’s doing this um uh up in the Manchester area and it so happens that who converted William Clayton Hebrew kill

[1:45:00] Michelle: right and with the washing feet, I think it is important to point out that, that does have deep significance in polygamy. They wear. The reason the F LDS don’t cut their hair is so they can wash their husband’s feet. It is a marriage ordinance. It’s a, oh, ok. You’re getting there. So if anyone wants to minimize it, just think of like, you know, go to, like, think of the first counselor in your bishop Rick and go ask if you can come in and wash his feet and come in, cut his hair. Like it’s very intimate and bizarre

[1:45:36] Jeremy Hoop: acts. Absolutely. So the question is what gospel did Hebrew teach to William Clayton in, in his journal, his, his mission journal is fascinating because it’s very honest he begins talking about. Oh, and I want to point out this is, these are pages from his mission journal just like Hebrew had tried to or someone had tried to scratch out part of Hebrew’s journal. I also need to mention there’s a period of time where we don’t have anybody’s journal. By the way, we don’t have Hebrews, we don’t have Brighams, we don’t have Willards. We, the only one we have is Wilfred Woodruff and I don’t believe Wilfred was involved in this stuff. At that point. We don’t have the main culprits journals in about 1843. But in 1840

[1:46:15] Michelle: the people who had charge of all of the records were Brigham and Hebrew and the 12 that they could destroy what they wanted to destroy and keep what they wanted to keep. That’s an important thing to recognize

[1:46:28] Jeremy Hoop: those other journals. I would like to know if they have them and if they’re willing to release them. Well, in the ones we do have, this is awfully curious in these pages, someone went in and thought it necessary to redact a whole bunch of information. Now, we don’t know what’s behind those words, but the other things that he’s talking about on the same pages and throughout this time are really, really interesting. He begins talking about a woman named Sarah at the beginning of his diary in early January 1840 in the preceding months before. Um he travels to the Americas. He mentions uh Sarah 98 times. Most of these appear to be referring to Sarah crooks a woman. He’s that he longs for, he mentions her, his ardent love for her and he’s very tempted by her and he wants to make him make her his plural wife later. He wants to make her his plural wife. He never mentions his wife by name. OK, Ruth Moon, he’s married to, he never mentions her by name in his journal and mostly references her as to writing and receiving letters. He never talks of his wife with affection or longing or love. Now, I don’t blame him necessarily for, for his, you know, for, for the state that he’s in. Um but it’s, it’s just an interesting observation that he’s mentioning this one woman so explicitly and not mentioning his wife would a good man who was married, keep entertaining the temptation of associating with another woman for whom he admits and he longs, but he doesn’t stop seeing this woman and the intimacy of their association grows in the intimate act of feet washing which will occur nine different times. Hey, now there’s no express. We washed our feet and went to bed like Hebrew. But there’s all kinds of references to Sarah wash my feet and he gets his feet washed by a couple of others as well. But nine different times he references this. So the question is, what’s going on here?

[1:48:21] Michelle: Are you, are you going to reference the all of the times that he doesn’t want her to get married that he’s worried if she has any other suitors? That? Well,

[1:48:29] Jeremy Hoop: that’s a great point. Uh I don’t want to belabor Clayton too much because that’s for another discussion. However, I just want to point out that he’s doing something very similar, but you’re absolutely right. In his journal, he’s talking about this woman. It’s clear that he, that he is in love with Sarah crooks and she is washing his feet in an intimate way.

[1:48:50] Michelle: He’s not Joseph in Egypt, fleeing, right? He’s not running away. He is diving into a headlong and polygamy provides the perfect solution to his problem.

[1:49:03] Jeremy Hoop: That’s right. And later in his journal, which I dispute is a contemporaneous journal. He will recollect a conversation with Joseph talking about this woman and saying that he wants to marry her. Ok. So we know for certain he wants to make

[1:49:19] Michelle: that he does say to Joseph. We did, we did have a connection but nothing other than like a brother and sister. It was purely innocent. Like again, the gentleman doth protest too much methinks. OK. Now,

[1:49:31] Jeremy Hoop: now that is not even the evidence that foot washing is really the deal of the marriage. Um Although I, although that modern polygamists use that as part of the marriage ceremony and that it was used in the second endowment by Brigham Young. The feet washing was part of the second endowment as which the second endowment sealed and married polygamous wives to their husbands. That’s where they did it.

[1:49:55] Michelle: The second anointing the

[1:49:58] Jeremy Hoop: second endowment, second anointing, it’s the same thing. It’s in, it’s in that ceremony that the, the washing of the feet occurs by the woman to the man. OK? Because so she can have claim on him in the resurrection. We’re gonna see that here in a second. But I want to point out something here to consider. Now, this is from Thomas Stafford who was a former nu’s very late. So just take that for what it is, it’s a late recollection. But if we’re going to consider all the other late recollections about Joseph, we ought to consider the late recollections about other people like Brigham Young. So he says the following in 1891 this is in response to the, to, to the argument of who started polygamy. But I am fully convinced. He says as I was then that Brigham Young was the was in adultery in Manchester England in the fall winter and spring of 1840 41 Elizabeth,

[1:50:53] Michelle: we’re talking about K when Brigham had the revelation given to him.

[1:50:58] Jeremy Hoop: Precisely, Elizabeth Mayer is the person with whom Brigham was then committing adultery. My reasons are these, we live next door to her under the same roof. This Elizabeth Mayer had a father and a brother who were gardeners, gardeners. They took their dinners as, as, as they worked a long pace from home. So uh the, the, the husband and brother, they’re gone a long time. The woman’s left alone in the house. Ok? As after they had left for work, Brigham would step into the house, she would then lock the door, pull down the blinds and curtains, which to me was strange. He never came to see our folks, although not five steps apart. And when he left, he was always in a hurry and she never came to the door with him when he was leaving. I am now and was then, by the way, he, he actually just uh describes the same thing going on in NAVOO. I cut that out. But he says he did the same thing in NAVOO. When I was in NAVOO, I witnessed him do the same thing. Um I am now and was then satisfied that he was in adultery in Manchester England, the seeds of polygamy was sown and Brigham was the sow sower. I was present at a meeting in a grove at NAVOO about three weeks before Joseph and Hyrum were murdered when Joseph made a public statement in the presence of 3000 people that polygamy was being practiced secretly by some that had crept into the church secretly and must be put down speedily or the church would be driven from NAVOO. I am satisfied that Joseph was not in favor of it at all would swear to all I have stated. Just keep that in mind. So we, we have a late statement. We have contemporaneous journals of some interesting things going on with Brigham Heber and Clayton in England. Um And so if this were Joseph, like you said, what would people say if we had these things about Joseph, they would absolutely say case closed. This is the smoking gun. Um We don’t need to look any further because we have him in his journal going to bed with a woman and getting their feet washed and that’s part of the second endowment. Now, one other thing here’s the connection Heber’s wife. Um uh Helen Mar Kimball. She tells a very interesting story. First of all, I wanna, I wanna reference something about spiritual life. So, so when we talk about spiritual wifey, I’ve mentioned that several times. One of the arguments that’s made is they didn’t call it spiritual wifey. They didn’t call it that. That was John Bennett’s term and that was the wicked form of it. The, the, the pure form of it was plurality of wives or celestial, celestial, plural marriage. OK?

[1:53:25] Michelle: And we say that the only reason they say that is to ignore all of Joseph’s talking against it. They want to say no, he was using double language. He was talking against polygamy but not against celestial

[1:53:38] Jeremy Hoop: marriage. That’s the reason. Make that clear. And, and I’m sorry, but they’re mistaken. These are just two of the statements. There are many, there are many statements to back this up. But Helen Mar Kimball said at the time in navoo spiritual life was the title by which every woman who entered into this order was called where it was taught and practiced as a spiritual order. And today still they call them spiritual wives. The fundamentalists do OK? They still call them spiritual wives. In fact, on one of your episodes, one of the, one of the women who fight against this stuff referenced that, that, that, that, that they’re referred to as it’s a spiritual marriage. It’s not an act, it’s not a legal marriage, a spiritual marriage. OK. This is um Emily Partridge who said the following in 1883 spiritual wives as they were termed, were not very numerous in those days. And a spiritual baby was a rarity indeed. What’s she referring to? She’s referring to the baby that she had with Brigham shortly after she was married nine months after 9 to 10 months after she was married to him in, I believe, November of 1844. She was, I believe the second woman in the child

[1:54:45] Michelle: after Joseph was gone. Ok. That’s another thing to point out. Yeah. Yeah. After Joseph’s gone that anyway, I’ll make my point after you continue

[1:54:56] Jeremy Hoop: of the word spiritual wise. By the way, remember it originated with John Bennett. She says, I think on our journey from Nauvoo. So think about this, on our journey from Navoo, the saints would stop in uh and form small settlements to recruit. I stopped at one of these places a short time company after company passed and many hearing that a spiritual wife and child were there? Meaning a woman who, who has had a baby out of wedlock. OK? Because no one, she’s not acknowledging it. Imagine her mortification in those days. Ok? She doesn’t have a husband by her side because Brigham is not there. She’s had a baby by him. She’s not acknowledging this. No one’s acknowledging that Brigham is the father because they’re not acknowledging polygamy, polygamy publicly. But whispers are going around. Look at that spiritual wife and baby. OK? This is not a good, good recollection that she’s expressing this. This was hard for her.

[1:55:54] Michelle: She’s also crossing the plains with a newborn without a husband.

[1:55:57] Jeremy Hoop: Exactly. Exactly that a spiritual wife and child were there? Curiosity led them to seek an interview. All pronounced the child a bright and beautiful boy, the handsomest child they ever saw. Ok. And later she says, I will mention here that soon after I refused to receive a letter, Mrs Durphy invited my sister Eliza and meet us to her house to spend the afternoon. She introduced the subject of spiritual wives as they were called in that day. I just want to point that out because what I’m talking about is the cause that Hebrew embraced was spiritual wifey. OK. He began practicing it by his own words or by the evidence in his own journal in England. I believe Clayton was practicing it. It’s very likely that Brigham was practicing it in England. Um And that, that, that was the when the genesis of all this happened sometime there or sometime after. And remember um remember the journal that I just mentioned the washing their feet and, and going to bed. Now, let’s connect that. So from um Hebrew’s journal, he first references his wife, the late washing his feet on April. Uh the first of 1844 I he perceived Kimball received the washing of my feet and was anointed by my wife the late before my bur for my burial. That is my feet head and stomach, even as Mary did Jesus, that she might have a claim on him in the resurrection in the city of Nabu. Then his wife writes on the same page almost to, to seal this, this ordinance in 1845. I was uh sorry IV eight Kimball do hereby certify that on the first day of April 1844 I attended to washing and anointing the head stomach and feet of my dear companion Hebrew C Kimball and may have claim upon him in the morning of the first resurrection. OK. So we see Hebrew receiving the washing of the feet from his wife as a way for her to have claim on him in the resurrection. This is a ceiling of their marriage of sorts. OK. Very important ceremony. And we also see the following in his, in his journal on March 27th, 1845. Now you need to understand a little background about this. There’s a woman named um Sarah Anne Whitney. Sarah Anne Whitney was married to Joseph Kingsbury. OK. Joseph Kingsbury had previously been married, I believe, to, to her aunt,

[1:58:29] Michelle: OK? And just for anybody who doesn’t remember Joseph Kingsbury is the one who claimed to have written 132 to have copied

[1:58:35] Jeremy Hoop: it

[1:58:37] Michelle: connected to this.

[1:58:38] Jeremy Hoop: So Joseph Kingsbury is very close with the Whitney family. He’s married to, I believe Nlk Whitney’s sister, Joseph Kingsbury’s wife dies um later in, I believe it’s 1842 or 18 it’s 1843 Joseph Smith, we have this document. Joseph Smith marries Hebrew. Uh Joseph Kingsbury to Sarah Anne Whitney. And the, the historian Marquardt writes about it in the strange, the strange marriages of Sarah Anne Whitney that they move in together. Ok. So later Joseph Kingsbury will say this was a pretended marriage. I think that’s a ruse to cover up what’s actually going on because while he is married to Sarah Anne, he’s still living with her in March 27th of 1845. Are you following me? Ok. I’ve just painted an interesting picture from 1843 to 1845. Joseph Kingsbury is married to Sarah and Whitney. The ceremony, we have the statement in the Joseph Smith papers. Joseph Smith married them publicly, they were publicly acknowledged as married legally. They were legally married, they were legally married and living together according to Marquart. OK. So in 1845 Sarah Anne Whitney is still Joseph Kingsbury’s wife. There is no divorce. Hebrew Kimball then March 27th, 1845 in the evening, received the washing of my feet by Sarah W that’s Sarah Whitney. OK.

[2:00:12] Michelle: OK.

[2:00:14] Jeremy Hoop: So remember at this time, she’s legally married to Kingsbury. Joseph Smith had performed the ceremony. Um And so what we need to understand she’s married to Kingsbury at the time Hebrew um uh gets his feet washed by Sarah washed according to the church. Their official marriage date is March 17th, but this is kind of odd because on his, in his journal that day, he writes in the evening, elder b young and myself met the singers at the concert hall to put them at peace. So that date doesn’t really work because he would have, he would have mentioned the marriage date, but the date of his feet washing is the 27th. Are you following me? So the 17th church says he’s married is 1845. Keep in mind he’s, he’s actually legally, she’s legally married to Kingsbury. Ok. She’s legally married to Kingsbury. But, but washing the feet of Hebrew Kimball on the 17th. OK. Hebrew and Hebrew and Sarah were sealed 9.5 months later in January 12th, 1846 in the Nabu Temple. OK. Their first child was born in March of 1846. So they start, they start sleeping together very soon after the feet washing,

[2:01:25] Michelle: ok? Before the, before

[2:01:28] Jeremy Hoop: the, before the ceiling, I think they put the date of March 17th to give them room to have a baby legally. And they’re just, they’re not careful about their records because we don’t have anything about a marriage being performed on that day. Uh If they would have looked on the 27th, they could see that. But I don’t know if they want to acknowledge feet washing as a marriage ceremony. I don’t know, I don’t know why they date it this way, but this is, but their official story, they marry on the 17th of 1845. And that gives them plenty of time to have a baby. But the problem is she’s still married to Kingsbury at that time. And this is why this is why Marquardt writes about the strange marriages of Sarah Anne Whitney and, and she supposedly, um according to Kingsbury, now, Kingsbury’s later tale is Joseph married me to her in a pretended marriage so that he could be married to her secretly. This is the only time this ever happens. Joseph doesn’t do this with anybody else, even according to anybody’s stories. Why would this happen? I think what happened is Joseph Kingsbury was a little bit embarrassed by the fact that Hebrew stole his wife. Kingsbury married his niece or, or the really his, his niece, his uh his wife’s niece would, who would be his niece, which is kind of weird, but he, he loved the, the Whitney family wanted to stay in the Whitney family married a Whitney and he comes and steals his wife and later plays prominently in the polygamy narrative and how it all starts with the revelation. I believe that Kingsbury is not telling the truth that Joseph marries them legally. Joseph does not marry Sarah and Whitney and that it’s Hebrew that steals Sarah Anne from Joseph Kingsbury. That’s my interpretation of the events.

[2:03:11] Michelle: I OK. Can I, I don’t, I don’t want to throw you off track. Can I throw in a couple of thoughts, please, please. Um So, ok, so a couple of things, we get the doctrine. Basically, I joke that size matters, meaning the size of your keys, right? The guy with the biggest key, like, like they actively teach that if, if a woman can get a guy with bigger keys to take her, she can leave her husband for him. So that would explain this. Kingsbury and Hebrew 100 goes right out of it.

[2:03:42] Jeremy Hoop: This is what they’re practicing. Absolutely. And this is why they go after other men’s wives, they go after other men’s wives on two principles. Number one, they believe that gentile marriages are, are not legal marriages invalid, spiritually, they’re invalid. And number two, if they have higher keys, they can take the woman anyway.

[2:03:59] Michelle: Yeah, they’re kind of like, they’re kind of like, like, hey join team Brigham, I’ve got the direct line. Hey, join team Hebrew. You know, like Brigham’s bragging when um uh is it Thomas Marsh comes back or whoever it was? And he’s like I can get any girl to marry me, right? Because I’ve got the biggest keys. That’s really the doctrine here. Then the other thing I want to point out in this is what you have just been going over all of this information, right? OK. We want to claim that Joseph was a polygamist and there is not anything like this, like as soon as Joseph is gone, Brigham and Hebrew, maybe you’re going to go over this. So if am I, am I jumping ahead? They like, ok, but they, I’ve talked about it with Whitney and you know, they start amassing wives. The second Joseph is gone. Right. And, and it’s so bizarre because, and then they start having babies. They were under no less stress than Joseph and Hyrum were, they had the succession crisis to deal with. There were still the mobs, they were being chased out of Nauvoo. They were right. They were still having to sneak around because it wasn’t public. So we have all of this evidence starting clear back in 1840 of Brigham and Hiram, this is what it should look like, at least with Joseph and with Brigham and Hebrew, this is what it should look like with Joseph and Hyrum, even the Children, even the babies, like there’s not a single like look at how easily they conceived all of these Children, right? It is inexplicable to say that. I mean, we are making Joseph and Hyrum to Brigham and Heber and, and you know, Hiram should be that number two guy just like Heber was with if anyway, I’ve said this before, but it is so important to recognize this, that there would be a trail. If, if Joseph and Hiram were doing this, there

[2:05:58] Jeremy Hoop: would be by everything that Heber and Brigham and Willard at all did. It’s very easy because they left that trail like you’re saying and the, the key is connecting the dots of what they actually did. And when they actually started this with what they said later and, and are they consistent and what we’re finding? And I believe that this ties that instance in England to a, to a marriage because on the 27th, 1845 she uh Hebrew receives the washing of the feet by Sarah W he has received the washing of the feet previously by his wife. Vate. Those two ceremonies are the connection of man and wife in matrimony and spiritual matrimony. OK, spiritual wifey as they called it. Um And then Hebrew and Sarah were sealed officially 9.5 months later in the temple. And March 8th, 1846 Sarah gives birth to Hebrew’s baby David Kimball. So those are the events they start um uh sleeping together shortly after the washing of

[2:07:02] Michelle: the feet. The washing of the feet is the marriage ceremony for

[2:07:07] Jeremy Hoop: that connects what Hebrews doing, what Clayton’s doing. Um And what, what is performed in that second endowment or the second anointing?

[2:07:17] Michelle: Ok. So let me ask you a question. Do we have any record anywhere of any woman washing Joseph’s feet?

[2:07:25] Jeremy Hoop: No other than Emma. We don’t have, we don’t have um a, a specific detail, but we do have a vague reference. I believe in Wilfred Woodruff’s journal of Emma and Joseph receiving. I think it says second anointing or being sealed. It’s one of the two. OK.

[2:07:44] Michelle: But so I make this is important that this really smoking gun evidence is again just like everything else completely absent for,

[2:07:52] Jeremy Hoop: to my mind. There’s no, there’s no reference of any woman claiming that they washed his feet, right? You know, and I think that this ceremony right here is important and, and, and connecting that to the current polygamist and, and their former second anointing ceremony where the foot washing and was replete. It also, it so happens that foot washing happened amongst the Cochran nights that’s not explicitly tied to sexuality, but it’s one of the ordinances they perform and the, and the basis of their entire organization or their entire group was around spiritual life. The entire thing was built around that doctrine being the highest principle which it so happens was the highest principle or the principle practiced by the Brigham mis everything about salvation and exaltation centered around that order, the Holy Order, the celestial law, the, the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, et cetera. They turned everything uh in and through that principle. OK. And so, so I believe that through these, we can draw the through line. Heber and Brigham knew before and they carried it on and they continued to do it now, a couple more things and then we’ll wrap up the cause that I have embraced. I wanna, I wanna show something. He starts writing in 1841 in England um about this cause that he’s embraced. Keep in mind what he’s been doing, spending all this time alone with Ellen Redmond, um spending time alone with other women, getting his hair combed and cut, getting going to bed, washing feet, going to bed with Ellen.

[2:09:25] Michelle: There are lots of causes. He’s embracing, embracing several causes.

[2:09:31] Jeremy Hoop: This right here I believe is right at that time when he’s with Ellen, OK. This letter to his wife, he says I had rather that God would take me from this world than to be left to bring a wound upon his cause that I have embraced, which I know to be a true system of salvation. Now, unless you are familiar with what Hebrew says about polygamy later, which I believe he has embraced here. This does not make as much sense. You might just be thinking he’s talking about the book of Mormon, his cause that I have embraced, which I know to be a true, it’s a

[2:10:08] Michelle: new cause he’s testifying of it in, in this new way. He embraced the book of Mormon and the nine years

[2:10:15] Jeremy Hoop: previous. Yeah, that’s right. And I know that and I know uh that is, I know that a man can get it on any other principle than the principles of virtue, which is one of the attributes of the Almighty. So he starts mentioning you can’t get it upon any other principle. So I believe the genesis of this notion of the principle referring to plural marriage starts probably here. Um You cannot get salvation that is on any other principle in the principles of virtue, which is one of the attributes of the almighty. And I pray that the almighty will boy, he cannot spell, will help you and me to fulfill in all points, the law that leads to the celestial world so that we can set down in the presence of the father and the son and with all the prophets and the apostles and that those that have taken the same course that we have that we have to to in order to obtain the same glory with them. If you know what he says later, it’s all about the principle of celestial marriage, the entire thing, his entire

[2:11:22] Michelle: focus. This is very reminiscent of section 132. There’s, there’s some similar themes coming through.

[2:11:30] Jeremy Hoop: I have just got one long letter done to send to Sister Eliza Hall. I wrote three to Eliza Hall. Doctor Copeland will leave this city in a few weeks. He is a smart man and I have received much instructions from him. I don’t know what instructions he received. He’s teaching him, Copeland’s teaching him. He’s spending time alone with Copeland’s wife. There’s a lot going on with this. Doctor Copeland don’t know exactly what, but it’s really odd that it’s in and around this sister Ellen Redman. Now, my dear Velta, thank you. Thank you for your caution. Caution about what I received it as from the Lord. When I come home, a hint is sufficient. What’s the hint? Don’t know, boy, if this were Joseph, if this were letter, they would be reading all kinds of things into this as I’m doing right now. I am reading things into this, but I am connecting things to other things that are verifiable. And so if this were Joseph, this would be one extra. I mean, they, they talk about the happiness letter for Pete’s sake, the happiness letter which cannot be verified came from Joseph in any way, shape or form was apparently he was just talked about with John Bennett in the handwriting, Willard Richards and denied by Nancy Rig Rigdon and Sidney Rigdon and denied by Joseph himself. But this is from Hebrew himself talking about this cause that he’s embraced on June 27.

[2:12:44] Michelle: He wrote in his own hand

[2:12:47] Jeremy Hoop: then in 1843. Now in 1843 he’s in the thick of polygamy with Sarah Peek noon. OK. He has taken her, had a baby by her, I believe by this point, Sarah Pek Noon by the way, is married to a uh a faithful elder of the church who has not divorced her. He’s in Nauvoo. Sarah Sarah’s husband, they came over together and Hebrew marries her anyway. Ok. Um I dreamt of you last night I saw sister Billings. Uh and so I thought sister Billings seemed to have some feelings toward me in his letters to to vate, he’s constantly referencing feelings he’s having to other women. It’s really, really interesting vate and he are vla is almost an enabler of this with him. It’s almost as though she, she needs his, she, she, she receives more approval from him by her support of his practice.

[2:13:37] Michelle: Well, remember his words at her gravesite, right? There lays a woman that gave me 43 wives or whatever it was, that was how she had value

[2:13:46] Jeremy Hoop: to. That’s exactly right. So, so this is a letter where he’s beginning to court other women. This is in 1843. Sister Billings seemed to have some feelings toward me. I asked her how Sara felt, sees. She is quite put out of the way. So this is, this is Sarah, that’s Sarah PK noon. Soraya. Ok, Sarah Pek noon is is apparently upset. I saw Soraya and spoke to her. She seemed to be quite offended. I feel quite bad on the account. But it was a dream. I know sister Billings went of that morning and did not bid me goodbye. I hope there’s nothing of it. If I thought there was, I should feel bad for sister Billings. I esteem one of my favorite friends and precious, speak a word of comfort to her for me and also to Soraya before I hold her as one of my own bosom friends and I seek her interest and yawn for we are in a critical place. I feel as though I had rather die than do anything to bring a wound on the cause that we have embraced. What is that cause it’s celestial plural marriage or in this case, spiritual wifey or to wound your tender feelings. OK. So this cause that he has embraced uh they

[2:14:57] Michelle: have embraced it, both of them. Now they,

[2:14:58] Jeremy Hoop: now they’re both uh knee deep in it. July 22nd, 1843. Um Hebrews in, in writing to be vate from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. The Lord has opened my eyes so I can see the necessity of being diligent in the cause that we have embraced or it is a glorious cause it is worth all the sacrifices that we have made or we have to make our lives are at stake. Why are they at stake? Because they’re practicing this thing that they, he knows could get them in trouble or killed. They may be required of us. We may not feel that more than we have things that are passed for. The more we have to pass through, the more um grave we have the more something we have given us. So my dear, let us lift up our heads and press forward in the name of Elijah’s God to seek to exalt each other in the sight of God, man. He’s talking about spiritual wifey. He’s been talking about it since England. OK. February 2nd 1849. Now this is, I want to read this one because this is gonna tell you what a hint about the effect that all of this chicanery, I think I call it that is having on his wife.

[2:16:02] Michelle: No one would have been in Utah. They were in Utah by this point.

[2:16:07] Jeremy Hoop: No one can supersede you. He’s writing to the late. No one can supersede you what I have done and is according to the mind and will of God for his glory and, and mine. So it will be for thine, let me say unto you VK every son and daughter that is brought forth by the wives that are given to me will add to your glory as much as it will to them. They are given to me for this purpose and for none other, I am a father of lives to give lives to those that wish to receive woman is to receive from the man. What I have done has been by stolen moments, by stolen moments for the purpose to save your feelings. And that alone on the count of the love I have for you. So he’s going around doing all kinds of stuff in stolen moments to, to spare her feelings. Meaning I think I, I I can’t tell you what I’m doing because I’m worried about what you’ll think and how you feel. So he’s

[2:17:00] Michelle: doing a lot. I’m sneaking around behind your back, behind her back.

[2:17:05] Jeremy Hoop: Yeah, I beg of you to consider my case. So apparently she’s pretty upset as you cannot do the

[2:17:11] Michelle: work. Think of me, think about me, honey. Oh It’s just so

[2:17:17] Jeremy Hoop: I had a letter like this from Joseph. Oh Yeah. As you as you cannot do the work that God has required of me. No one can do my work but myself. No vate. Look, look and see that God has put power into my hands for the purpose to get women to myself and those that he has given to me, OK. This is how he felt. This is how he treated his woman. This is the cause that he embraced. OK? And again,

[2:17:43] Michelle: this is, it’s exactly the doctrine out of 132. Exactly what they attribute to Joseph Smith, but it is them. You go, you go ahead, sorry.

[2:17:51] Jeremy Hoop: Now later on Hebrew will say just to connect these ideas together. These are from a few of his sermons, I speak of plurality of wives as one of the most holy principles that God ever revealed to man. And all those who exercise in influence against it, unto whom it is taught, man or woman will be damned and they, and all who will be influenced by them will suffer the buffetings of Satan in the flesh. For the curse of God will be upon them and poverty and distress and vexation of spirit will be their portion. While those who honor this and every sacred institution of heaven will shine forth as the stars in the fir firmament of heaven and of the increase of their kingdom and glory. There shall be no end. This will equally apply to Jew Gentile Mormon, male and female, old and young. He also said, um at another time supposing that I have a wife or a dozen of them, suppose that I lose the whole of them before I go to the spirit world. But that I have been a good faithful man all the days of my life and lived my religion and had favor with God was kind to them. Do you think I will be destitute there in the spirit world? No, the Lord says there are more females there than there are here in the spirit world. There’s an increase of males and females. There are millions of them. Uh And if I am faithful all the time and continue right along with brother Brigham, we will go to brother Joseph and he will say here we are brother, here we are brother Joseph. He will say to us, where are your wives? They are back yonder? They would not follow us. Never mind. Says Joseph, here are thousands have all you want. Perhaps do not, some do not believe that, but I am just simple enough to believe it. I’m looking for the day and it is close at hand. We will have a most heavenly time one that will be romantic,

[2:19:25] Michelle: so romantic

[2:19:27] Jeremy Hoop: one with all kinds of ups and downs, which is what I call romantic where it will occupy in a full, in full all the time. Meaning I’m gonna be, I gotta have my hands full with thousands of women.

[2:19:38] Michelle: Well, yeah, what is it? We said the the Kan only gives you 72 versions. Mormons get thousands,

[2:19:45] Jeremy Hoop: right? The revelations which Joseph Smith has given to this people were given to him by Jesus Christ, the savior of the world. And this people cannot be blessed if they lightly esteem any of them for this purpose. Did he give the revelation on plurality of wives as sacred? A revelation as ever was given to any people and fraught with greater blessings to us than we can possibly conceive of. Uh if we do not abuse our privileges, commit sin. This doctrine is a holy and pure principle in which the power of God for the regeneration of mankind is made manifest. Uh And again, in 1857 he said, do you suppose that Joseph and Hyrum and all those good men would associate with those ancient worthies? If they had not been engaged in the same practices, they had to do the works of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, he gets that wrong in order to be admitted where they are, they had to be polygamous in order to receive, be received in the into their society. God knows that I am not ashamed of those good men now men now and, and how much more I shall prize my associate polygamist. When I am further advanced in knowledge, I do not know I am talking in earnest and from the experience I’ve had, this is the cause that he embraced all the way back in England. And so when we’re, when we’re talking about these two men, um I’m gonna skip over this. This is all about Hebrew’s charm and, and just some of the nonsense that he would say. I, I’ll leave that. Uh, maybe for another

[2:21:01] Michelle: day they were both Braggarts, they were

[2:21:03] Jeremy Hoop: Braggarts and they, and they were rather insensitive to all around them.

[2:21:07] Michelle: Well, their egos are, it’s insane how, how much ego they had. Yeah. OK.

[2:21:14] Jeremy Hoop: And so the question that I have for the good host of that other podcast or anyone else who is listening to this, who may be pulling your hair out and saying, yeah. But what about this? That and the other, I’ve just spent however long we spent, it’s been a long time examining just a few of the words of the two primary culprits of all of this. Just to ask one question. Can we believe these people when they tell us something happened? Are they credible? And I believe that if you are honest, you will. In fact, I would say the only people who believe Brigham Young, really, the ones who really believe him are the ones who believe he the, the continuation of Keys because they kind of have to believe him, even the the, the people who have left the church and left the restoration. They don’t believe Brigham Young. They only conveniently believe him when it fits the narrative. So I would ask everyone, um I would ask everyone to basically consider the credibility of the sources that you’re listening to. And as we unpack all of these things, let’s have that top of mind because it’s all about whom you choose to believe.

[2:22:29] Michelle: Well, ok. Excellent, brilliant. So good Jeremy. This was so awesome. I hope people loved it. I do want to make a couple of points. You’ve just showed so many inconsistencies, first of all, for anyone saying. But what about, but what about, what about? OK, we can’t do everything at once, set aside the other points and look at what has been presented here. We’ll get to more later. We have a series of eight planned of eight episodes planned as soon as we can get to them. So that’s the first thing. The second is all of these inconsistencies with Brigham and Hiram, he Brigham and Hebrew do not exist with Joseph Emma and Hiram. They were consistent. The only way to claim that they were liars is to believe Bri Brigham and, and the testimonies that they oversaw coming forth in this system of complete obedience to your God, your priesthood head with no regard to the standard works or the old revelations, right? So those are a couple of points that I think are important to consider. And then I also with everyone that feels like like I mentioned before, the high horse of we have to make these people accountable. We have to make the right people accountable. I hate that Brigham gets such a pass and Hebrew, we don’t even talk about Hebrew that they get such a pass because we claim they’re just following in the footsteps of what was done before. So when you, when you put the wrong person in prison for the crime, you’re letting the real perpetrator go free. Yes, we want people held accountable. We have to make sure we’re holding the right people accountable. That is critically important. So even if you don’t like Joseph, whatever, don’t make it about redeeming Joseph, make it about holding Brigham and Hebrew duly accountable for what they actually did and what they actually are accountable for.

[2:24:22] Jeremy Hoop: Absolutely. Well, well said

[2:24:25] Michelle: so, ok, I hope people are still with us. I hope like this was amazing. This was so good. I cannot thank you enough for your work. Please. Everyone join in the conversation. Um Give us your thoughts, your comments. Don’t bog us down with the what about of things we haven’t covered in this episode because they will be coming. I mean, go I hadn’t asked questions but I, I hate that when as soon as you make a strong case, they just want to be slippery. Polygamists are

[2:24:55] Jeremy Hoop: call the straw man argument, by the way, to deflect from the, from the pointed hand in order to make another point so that, that you lose the grasp on the current topic. And I’ll, I’ll, I’ll add to that. Um, Michelle and I and a number of others, we are preparing to put basically a, a curriculum together so that people can understand this in a methodical way. Um, we won’t let the cat out of the bag yet, but we’re preparing to put something together that will help those of you who are interested not only understand it from our mouths, but from the very sources that we, that we reference. Um so that you have a methodical way to approach this subject and we will address all of those. What about this? What about that? We will address all of those things in good time. We’re just laying foundational work here, this, today, this exposition as long as an arduous as it was and I know it was arduous. It’s important because you have to understand the nature of the evidence you’re looking at and, and, and the credibility of the witnesses that people rely on in order to, to uh say that Joseph did these things. And so we will address all of those things,

[2:26:07] Michelle: all of the things that have been left out. None of these quotes by Brigham and Hebrew, none of these claims, none of this evidence was included or addressed in any way in the presentation on the other podcast it’s never looked at. So we are beginning to mount the case for the defense, right? And we

[2:26:24] Jeremy Hoop: just talk about, we’ll talk about the revelation, we’ll talk about what ceilings meant, what we talk about. But in this particular part, what I want to show people is that it’s verifiable that their stories don’t add up and that they’re lying, that these people at one time or another or in many instances are lying. And can you trust what they say if, if you have a court case and someone’s on the stand, someone has been known to be a liar before that person is then can be instructed by the judge. The judge can instruct the jury to basically treat their testimony with prejudice. And so I think we should treat with prejudice, the testimonies of these men.

[2:27:02] Michelle: OK. This was, this was amazing. So thank you everyone for joining us. Please stay tuned as I’ve said before my prediction and I’m not claiming to, I’m not going to make false prophecy like Brigham and Hebrew were so want to do. But my prediction is that in five years, people will be saying, oh, I never really thought Joseph was a polygamist, right? I think that the tide because so much evidence is coming forward. I think the tide is going to turn quickly. So thank you. Yeah. Iii I can’t see it being otherwise. So thank you, Jeremy. I can’t wait for you to bring your next one as soon as you can get it ready to go. I think we talked about the next one being Kingsbury in Clayton, but we might go out of order. We’ll, we, we have a lot of good ones planned. So thank you everyone for joining us. We would love to hear your thoughts and discussions. Go ahead and make comments of your effusive praise and gratitude to Jeremy and all of his hard work because this is amazing and he deserves it. So, thank you. We will finally let you go and we will see you next time. Take care. Thank you for sticking around. I hope you all had your minds blown. I know I did seeing all of that information together like that was incredible. And again, this is not the entire story at all. We are breaking it down bit by bit to cover each little part to try to get this other narrative out there so that people can see things that make far more sense and can see all of the pieces that have been ignored for far too long. So thank you for joining us. I don’t know how soon Jeremy will be able to get his next presentation ready and be back, but I know we will all be looking forward to it. So thank you for joining us and we will see you next time.