65: Is the Book of Mormon Racist? with Marvin Perkins | 132 Problems: Mormon Polygamy

Please consider supporting this podcast:

Links

RaceAndThePriesthood.com
Marvinperkins.com

Transcript

[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon polygamy, where we explore the scriptural and theological case for plural marriage. This is our second episode in our series on the priesthood ban, and my gosh, I love this episode. I love this conversation that I was able to have with Marvin Perkins. I hope that you will share this episode, that it will be broadly and widely listened to because I think it is so essential. There is so much critical truth here. So we will be talking a little bit about polygamy, but mostly about the modern impacts of what the false traditions have wrought and continue to rot in our lives, in our relationships, and in our church. So thank you so much for for joining us as we take this deep dive into the murky waters of Mormon history, racism, and polygamy. Welcome to this episode of 132 Problems. I am so pleased to be able to have a discussion with and introduce all of you to my new friend Marvin Perkins. And for those of you who don’t already know of Marvin Perkins, you are in for such a treat. I am so just pleased that we were able to work this out, Marvin, and that you were willing and able to come on. Marvin has done amazing work in the scriptures and for our community helping us to better understand our horrible passed down misinterpretation of scriptures on the issue of race, and I’m sure he’ll be able to add a lot to that. I, I was just so drawn to Marvin the first time I heard him speak, probably 7 years ago. I, I heard on YouTube, probably when it was first posted. And I know that you’ve had an opportunity to speak with, with FA. And anyway, I want you to go ahead and introduce yourself a bit if you don’t mind. But first of all, thank you so much for coming and talking to me.

[02:05] Marvin Perkins: You’re welcome, Michel. It’s a real pleasure to be here with you and uh hey everybody, I’m Marvin Perkins and um I’m really a guy that just loves to help. And if you want to know anything about me, that’s, that’s really who I am. I love um I love our creator. I love Jesus, even so much that I call him by his actual name which is Yeshua, and so I just love people. I love to help and that that’s what I do. That’s how I got it. That’s how all of this started. It’s just with a great desire to just to be a significant influence on on the human family.

[02:44] Michelle: That’s beautiful. I love it. I, I, I said, I said to Marvin when we were getting ready to record, I just relate to him so well. He loves the scriptures. I love the scriptures, and I feel like the work you’ve done in the scriptures is profound and I don’t know. Are we OK? Oh, go ahead.

[03:04] Marvin Perkins: No, no, that there was something that uh I was gonna say earlier that just came back when you said that, and it was, you know, I, I found early in this work that people can, they can dispute history. Uh, and they can look at history in different ways, but you can’t dispute the scriptures. The scriptures is the common ground for the one place that we can all go to and we can find common ground. And even if you don’t understand it, you can start there and then pray about it, and we can all get to the same place. So it is the fastest way that I have found to unite the human family is to start with scripture and prayer.

[03:41] Michelle: That’s amazing. I love that insight. Thank you for sharing. I, you’re exactly right that we can dispute history. I’m wishing that there was, there were fewer disputations about scripture, but I think maybe the pieces we’re missing are the prayer and the openheartedness and the desiring to know more rather than just being happy with our old traditional interpretations. But um, can I ask you, can you share with us your, um, I guess conversion story to the church? Like how did you become a member of the church? And

[04:12] Marvin Perkins: that’s crazy. That’ll take the whole two hours, so I’ll try to abbreviate it. Uh, it’s a fascinating story because I have always been drawn. I was born and raised in Niagara Falls, New York, and, um, is very close to Palmyra, right? It’s only 90 miles outside of Palmyra. And in my AME church at the time, in Sunday school, the Sunday, the Sunday school teacher was teaching a lesson about Jesus and Jesus had been teaching things that And I think my impressions, and I have to, I have to preface it with that, what she was teaching and my impressions could have been two completely different things, but I know the messages were there for me. So the impressions that I got is that there were people who wanted to do some of what Jesus said and not all of it. They wanted to kind of pick and choose and so it just didn’t seem right and I felt very compelled. Uh, at that moment, and I told myself one of these days I’ve got to get my life right and I’ve got to find the real church because I thought there was that real church is the one that had everything that Jesus taught and the people wanted to live and follow everything that Jesus was teaching. So I went home and I told my little brother, you know, uh, we’re just a year apart. It’s like, you know, one of these days we gotta get our lives right and we got to find that real church, you know, and he didn’t even remember the conversation, so I know the message was just for me. And so when I was um 17, I started looking. And I started studying all the different religions of the world, and it took me about 5, 5.5 years before I finally came across the uh the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Now, I had come across them earlier as I was going through. Yellow Pages. So I was literally going down the Yellow Pages. I’d stopped with churches, I go to the library, and then I figured at the library, I can’t do this at the library because I need to be in the churches to figure out what they’re really teaching and believing and how they’re living. And so, um, I got to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I was just about to pick up the phone to call them and a friend of mine, African American woman who was studying law at UCLA, um, she, I said, hey, Shelly, do you know anything about You know, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and she said, oh yeah, those are the Mormons, they hate blacks. They hate blacks, they won’t let blacks be, you know, have leadership positions, you know, in their church, very, very racist organization. And I said, OK, cross them out.

[06:46] Michelle: What year was this? Do you know what year this was?

[06:50] Marvin Perkins: I do. It was um. 1980. 7. OK, yeah, it was 1987. It was 1987 and so um Actually, it was 1988. It was early 1988. And so, um, I crossed them off and that was it. I was done with them. Uh, but, uh, a series of unfortunate events happened and, you know, I got laid off from a job. And then I had another job, um, and I got laid off from that job and it was crazy and I’m a single parent at this point too, so, you know, I’m raising my little boy, he’s just 23 years old and um You know, and I’ve got to find a job. And so I end up finding this job, uh, after several months, you know, I mean, it was so bad. I just, you know, I can remember wiping the tears from my eyes and walking into McDonald’s to ask for an application because I couldn’t fail, right? I had to succeed. I had this child to feed, so I could not let him down. And so I never got a chance to put that application in because this company called me. And they gave me a job. And the reason they had deliberated so long is because they had never hired an African American before and that’s what all of the issue was about. The big issue was, can we handle, can we hire an African American? What’s that gonna be like bringing an African American into this and so on and so forth how we deal with it, uh. My boss just happened to be LDS, one of the nicest racist you’ve ever met in your life, OK? And so, and, and so the thing is they finally gave me the job. I was relieved. I was able to provide for my little family, you know, just like my son and I, and I, I worked in this environment for Uh, I want to say 2 years, and every time this, my boss, you know, every time he saw me, you know, which was every day, you know, we’d walk in, we work together, you know, he’d tell me about an African American that he saw in the grocery store, or, you know, and I thought there would be a point to it, you know, and it’s like, no, I just saw one point. I was like, it’s crazy, it’s crazy, crazy, crazy. So I didn’t, I didn’t know he was LDS until I end up leaving the company. So the interesting thing about it is that, you know, a job was so sacred to me because I had this little family to take care of that What I did just blew me away because 3 days after I had started working there, uh, the manager quit and I ended up taking his responsibilities, but they wouldn’t give me the pay. And so. It was crazy. It was, it was absolutely crazy. And I said, maybe they’re just waiting for me to be able to prove myself that I can do this. And so, you know, rocked it, you know, and it was rocking it for months and even, you know, well over a year and they still would not give me the pay for that role. So one day I just did something totally uncharacteristic of me, and I walked into a board meeting and I had a handwritten, had a handwritten resignation letter and just resigned from my job and, you know, especially how difficult it was for me to get that job. It’s like you, you got a child that you, you don’t do this and it’s just like, what did I just do? And I just snapped out of this little fog and I said, I just don’t believe, I don’t believe I just quit my job. And I got on the phone to call one of my customers and I said, Milly, would you mind writing me a letter of reference so I can get a new job? And she says, no, I won’t. But I will tell you where the perfect job is. Two days later, I had secured that job, and it was that job that I would actually come in contact with. The very first person that I would talk to, uh, was a woman named Mary. And Mary, well, the first person that I was supposed to talk to hung up on me and so they didn’t want to deal with the new guy. And then, so I’m all apprehensive about starting a new job, you know how you are, and then the second phone call was Mary and she worked for a distributor of the company’s product that I work for, and she had been used to dealing with one of the owner’s son who didn’t do such a great job. And so she was relieved to find somebody who did a great job, and I was relieved to find somebody who was nice and kind, and we just hit it off from there. And so Mary’s story is kind of crazy too, because Mary started that job, I want to say a few months prior to me starting my job. And she started out going to look for a job. And put a few different applications in. And as she was going to put applications in, there were two locations. One of them was right down the street from her home, and the other was on the other side of town. So, she knew exactly where the place was, so she got in the car, took her resume, went and she was supposed to turn left into the driveway where the company was, but for some reason, she turned right. And she just kind of walked into the building that was closest to her, and she came out of her little fog, and it’s like, what am I doing here? I know where the building is. How did I just walk into this building? So she turns around to walk out, and she hears a voice from the top of the stairs say, hi, can I help you? And she turned around and says, well, not unless you’re hiring. And she says, well, we actually are, have a resume? And she said, I, I absolutely do. So, conversation, resume exchange, blown away that she just walked in and had that experience, took off, went across the street, put a resume there, went to the second place. By the time she got home, the place she had inadvertently walked into. had called and offered her the job. And so, that’s how Mary and I got connected. And so um uh And some of the people that, uh, know that I do this, know that I started off as a vocal artist, a vocal recording artist. And so Mary knew that I sung and she wanted to hear me perform, come out and see her perform. And I told her that I was performing out in LA, uh, on Sunday, and she says, well, no, uh, uh, Sunday won’t work. And I asked her, I said, Is that because Sundays are bad in general? Or are you busy? She said, oh, Sundays are bad in general. I said, is that a religious thing? She said, yes. I said, what church is that? And cause remember, cause I’ve been on this search, I’ve been searching all these different religions, she says, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And I said, I’m Mormons. I said, you know, my sister joined that church a little while ago and she won’t tell us anything about it. You know, cause our questions are about what’s up with your church and the racist issues. And um so she didn’t have the answers, so she didn’t, just didn’t talk about it. So, Mary and I came. When we got together, she came to see a Wednesday show. I saw her for the very first time, Michelle. She was actually kind of cute. I’ve never seen her before because we worked over the phone. And um we’re the same age and um We talked all that night after my performance. We talked all that night, uh, about the church and, um, about the gospel and, you know, I asked her out and we went out a couple of days later, went to a movie and then after the movie, we went to, uh, the beach down at Corona Del Mar and we just under a, um, Under a street lamp, it was a little bit as dark as nighttime, but under streetlamp, I read my first piece of LDS literature was the Joseph Smith history. And what was interesting about that is that here I saw this young boy who had gone through a similar thing that I was going through. At a young age, I got an impression that there was one real church and I had to find it and I spent 5, 5.5 years looking for it. And the only thing I could think, the question is this what you’ve put me on the path to find. And um I just wanted to get Mary home, and I wanted to find where I could get this book. And so I took her home, where can I get this book? She tried to give it to me. It’s like, who gives somebody their book? Nobody gives somebody their book, at least not where I grew up. And so I said, I’m not leaving with that book. I’ll just go get one. Tell me where to get it. And in her mind, she’s like, he is not leaving here without this book, you know, so, so, so she, she ends up, she ends up winning out and um. I put as much distance as I can between Mary and I because she believes too much in the church, and I don’t want her convincing me. Uh, this has to be, so this is what I’ve been looking for. I have to have it on my own. And so I’d only talk business with her on the phone. We wouldn’t do anything else and um Finally, it was my time to pray about um Was this the path? Was this it? Is this what you’ve sent me to find all this time? And I was studying, my son was away visiting his mother, and we had a little one bedroom apartment, and when I prayed about it, the presence in that room was so strong. The presence in that apartment was so strong that I knew somebody was in there with me. I search every inch, every inch of that small apartment. Um, knowing someone was in there because the presence was just so strong. And finally, when I realized what it was, When I realized it was the answer to my prayer, it was a confirmation that I was looking for, that I had found what I was put on the path to find, uh, that’s when it left me, and I got on my knees and got in gratitude and um It was just awesome, you know, cause this has been a lifelong journey, you know, uh, to my young life at that point, um, what, 25 years old at that time, and so, Um, I get in the yellow pages and I’ve got to look through the number because I stretched it out previously, and I called and got a hold of a bishop or something, um. And told him about the fact that I want to come down and I want to check out your services. And, uh, we arranged the time and then I called Mary, and then I said, hey, this is, let me bring you up to speed. I’d love for you to come with me so you can explain some of the things that I don’t understand. And, uh, and so that’s what we did. And, um, the more I studied with it, the more I, I just felt like this was, this was home, this was the place for me. It was just so clear that I was supposed to be here and um Then I started trying to find answers. OK, I just have to find answers to the, to the race issue. And as I started asking those questions, that’s when things really started to take a downturn because everyone who thought they knew. first took on a posture of OK, we’re about to deliver you some news that you don’t really want to hear. We’re just about to deliver you some bad news. I mean, that was the posture, the whole energy changed, right? The whole countenance changed, and then they delivered

[18:50] Michelle: uncomfortable and not wanting to go there, not wanting this, yeah, I, I mean, I, yeah,

[18:56] Marvin Perkins: for sure, exactly, exactly. And so, uh, absolutely none of it, absolutely none of it had the love of Christ in it. None of it had the love of God in it. And they were genuinely, genuinely. I mean, they had genuine hearts of love and wanting to do good and everything. They just were ill-equipped. They had the wrong information, they’ve been taught wrong for so long, and they actually just believed it. They wanted to help, but they didn’t have the ability to do so. So that got further and further away.

[19:33] Michelle: This would be into the 90s if that first experience was in ’88 or were you baptized in ’88 or?

[19:42] Marvin Perkins: No, no, I was baptized as well, so I moved.

[19:43] Michelle: OK. So, OK, so this was in the late 80s, but I just wanted to draw the timeline because the ban was ended horrifically in 8. I mean, not until 78. And at that time. Like Bruce McConkie said at BYU, ignore anything anybody said before this, and yet you were still being told over a decade later that you were less valued in heaven. Is that what you were being told that

[20:11] Marvin Perkins: all of, all of that curse the works, but you got to understand something, and I want to, um, you know, say this quite boldly. The restriction is still in place. The ban has not been lifted. The ban has not been lifted until all the teachings are corrected, until the attitudes are corrected, until all of those things, until all of the materials are corrected, that the all of the books taken out of uh circulation, until the church leaders are speaking about the truths as boldly as they spoke about the untruths, the restriction is still in place. This is Still keeping many people out of the church of all colors. This is still keeping people out of callings

[20:55] Michelle: of people that look like me, yeah, and I, I love that you said that because that’s that’s part of my point about polygamy exactly like polygamy and I don’t want to compare in some ways because like Hurt is hurt, right? Wrong is wrong. And um so it’s, it’s like how the experiences might be different or um similar doesn’t invalidate either one, but I love that you said that the fact that we are still carrying it on, we’re still allowing it to exist. We’re still doing the bare minimum, and with polygamy, we officially still believe it, right? So we ended it clear back in the early 1900s, but it’s still the official doctrine.

[21:42] Marvin Perkins: And that’s the same with the race issue too, even

[21:45] Michelle: though we end it,

[21:46] Marvin Perkins: people still believe it and until they correct those beliefs that ban is still in place because those individuals are the barrier. They are the barrier for others. I mean, I mean, I mean we have baptized thousands into the church through our outreach program and part of the big issue that we had was you’re bringing. You, you, you’re bringing these beautiful souls into the church to sit next to people who think they’re cursed and then they keep reinforcing these things in primary and gospel doctrine and, and, you know, relief society and, uh, you know, and even in general conference. And so, I mean, how do you, how do you in good conscience continue to bring people in there to have them suffer from these people who genuinely believe That there’s something wrong with them.

[22:38] Michelle: So we are still steeping and stewing in this problem. It’s not just we had this in our past. It’s that people come to the church filled with the spirit like you did, ready, and they experience it day after day after day because of the ongoing falsehoods that are ignorantly spoken and

[23:03] Marvin Perkins: OK. Oh man, it’s it. Could reach everybody. I’d love it that, you know, that our work and the work of all of those that my associates that work with me, that we could reach every member of the church and sit down and teach them to the point where they give them the tools to go get their own testimonies, that’s not the case. We can reach a certain segment of those globally and they can influence those in their area, in their sphere of influence, but The rest of the false doctrine is still spreading so fast through the missionary program. I mean, we’ve basically taken racism and made sure that it’s gone all over the world by taking missionaries and pushing them all throughout the world to teach these racist views.

[23:46] Michelle: OK, can you let’s continue with your story if that’s OK, because I think we get into so much of this. So I, I, and I’m just, I’m loving, I’m loving talking to you. Thank you. Um, so when, when, so can you give us some of the details of what you were being told by the loving, uncomfortable members?

[24:08] Marvin Perkins: Sure, so they were telling me that um I was cursed because of Kane. Uh, that I was less valiant in the pre-existent, uh, that I was, I had the curse of ham.

[24:24] Michelle: um So you can mm I asked because actually Brigham Young and Orson Pratt had a strong disagreement. Brigham Young insisted it was Kane. Orson Pratt insisted it wasn’t Kane, it was ham. And so it’s interesting that now we don’t even know the details of how we got our false doctrines. We just think they’re all true.

[24:49] Marvin Perkins: Yeah, and the interesting thing about that is that the restriction, the, the, the reasons happened after the restriction. And so, yeah, yeah, so we’re gonna we’re gonna start doing that. OK, then this is what we can say we’re doing this, you know.

[25:06] Michelle: There are a lot of just with my study and polygamy, there are so many that it’s interesting. So anyway, continue. So you were cursed and you were less valiant.

[25:19] Marvin Perkins: And that I could not get into the celestial kingdom, but I should join anyway because they were blessings for me.

[25:26] Michelle: I, I never had heard that one.

[25:30] Marvin Perkins: I’ve never heard any of this stuff.

[25:32] Michelle: I, well, I, I mean, as a lifelong member of the church in Utah, you know, I, I would think I would have heard all of the bad ideas. I hadn’t heard that one. Did they explain why in that one? Did they have a

[25:46] Marvin Perkins: You know something, it was nothing that any of them said made any sense in any way, shape, or form. I mean, it just had, it had no fingerprint of God on it in any way, shape or form. I mean, when you hear a message of the Savior, when you hear a message of the Creator, you feel that love, you feel the, you just, it’s just love, and there’s you

[26:09] Michelle: in your room.

[26:11] Marvin Perkins: Yeah, there’s, exactly. There’s, there’s, there’s, there’s no love in it and the thing is that that love doesn’t have any bounds or restrictions or walls. It doesn’t have any of that. And so I just knew because I had great parents. Uh, my parents had always prepared me to deal with people who don’t understand the greatness that is in all of us, me and my my 5 other brothers and sisters, and um they helped us to understand that it would be their problem, not ours. And so I knew that they had a problem. I just couldn’t understand how God could possibly want me in this church, and that was my conversation. This is the most racist organization I’ve ever encountered in my life. How could you possibly want me here? How could you possibly want me here? And it was just clear that he did want me here, and I didn’t understand it. And I was like, so finally, um, Uh, Mary was trying to take me to everybody she possibly could, and everybody she took me to, it just got worse. It got worse and it got worse, but she never gave up.

[27:14] Michelle: So Mary, if I’m just curious, Mary hadn’t had to grapple with these. Mary wasn’t of African descent. She was,

[27:20] Marvin Perkins: she, she’s she’s of European descent. Exactly.

[27:25] Michelle: She was getting into these issues with along with you. OK, OK.

[27:29] Marvin Perkins: Now, now, the beautiful thing about my, my beautiful friend Mary is that her family grew up in the church steeped into this Mormon pioneer stock, uh, that were super racist themselves. You know, you know, her father had passed on, but he had just taught her all of these things and you know how when this a loved one dies, their lessons are solidified. They’re almost like placed in this like this gold, you know, I dare I say golden plates, but, um, but they’re just really, they’re really kind of uh solidified, uh, but then her mother. You know, uh, had a tough time seeing me in the house and seeing me over there and just would be very vocal and just, it just, it was, it was problematic and, you know, uh uh. You know, and Mary had had these thoughts herself and she wanted, she was on the missionary committee, uh, she was my friend, she loved me, she wanted them to church. We, we, we, we, we had developed a, you know, a romantic uh relationship, but she could only go so she, you know, she could only take it so far in the heart because she knew it was wrong. In her mind it was wrong because you

[28:45] Michelle: weren’t yet a member of the church or because you were

[28:52] Marvin Perkins: because I was of African descent.

[28:56] Michelle: Oh, Marvin, there’s just, it’s, it hurts. Kay

[29:02] Marvin Perkins: Ka continue yeah, no, so, um, but she didn’t want to cross that bridge while I was still investigating. No, she didn’t want to keep that from allowing me to join the church, and I, and I could be misspeaking for Mary too, and if she ever sees this, she’ll correct me. But uh, but, um. Uh, I end up going to a, uh, state president who also, uh, was, uh, we worked for CES at the church education system at the time, and I had the same questions, and he says, Marvin, I, I can’t answer your questions either, he said. And, and the beauty of it is he didn’t try, he didn’t try to give me some But he didn’t try to give me what all the rest of them gave me is an answer that was so Important, so pivotal, and so demeaning and so devastating without even having the testimony of it. So you’re telling me, you’re, you’re telling me I’m like Satan, but you don’t even have a testimony of that. So you could go there and tell me something so evil, so heinous without having a testimony of that, without having asked of God and then told of God that yes, that is true. And so that’s the thing that blows me away so much, but, and, and, and that. is what helped me to understand the second part of my mission in joining the church was to unleash the prophet worship. Unleash, you know, do a testimony transplant where they could stop being as the scriptures say, you know, uh, you know, those who, you know, rely on flesh or curse. Curse it is he that rely upon flesh. And so, They were so rely upon flesh that they had no room for God. They had no room to ask God and get an answer from God themselves. And so, uh, uh, the race issue was a big part of my work, but the another, just an equally big part of it was to help people to understand that you have to, you know, curse his he put his and flesh.

[31:14] Michelle: This scriptures, not Marvin. I couldn’t agree with you. So this is an interesting perspective. That person is sitting there saying these things to me. Like, first of all, makes me think that when you feel that level of discomfort. You know, that’s like a big flashing light that says you are not speaking truth, right? You are not connected to God in this moment that you’re going to say these things that are making you feel this way. That’s a good clue for all of us to take, I think.

[31:38] Marvin Perkins: It is huge. It’s huge. It’s huge. It’s huge, and, and my thing, Michelle, was I don’t have to be here. You people, you know, I, I love you because you are here in your people and I love you and I love everybody, but I don’t have to be here with you. There’s something wrong with you and my conversation with God is like, why would you want me here? They don’t even understand who you are. They don’t even know you. They, they have no relationship with Christ. They don’t know who you are. Why would you want me here? And

[32:14] Michelle: do you, do you feel like I do want to get, I, you go ahead first and I’ll ask you my questions because I want to hear

[32:19] Marvin Perkins: that. No, but it was.

[32:23] Michelle: What did God tell you? How did God answer?

[32:29] Marvin Perkins: When that state president said what he said, when he said If this book is true, there are answers for it out there somewhere. My mind immediately went to my little one bedroom apartment. And it went back to That was so powerful that I can’t deny it. And so I knew in that moment I had to act upon what I had been given because he wanted me here for a reason, and maybe I didn’t have to know, maybe he was going to reveal that. Maybe this for me was a step into faith, and he knows that I’ll always do whatever he asked me to do, whatever I wanted to do, and I was developing that even more. And so I took that leap of faith and I joined the church. Still not having answers, and then a few days later, Mary introduced me to a dear friend, Richard Holsoel, who teaches up at BYU and um And he told me about Elijah Abel. And how Elijah Abel, an African American man, was ordained to the priesthood in the 1800s, and I thought, I knew it, I knew it, I knew it. And it’s like from there I said I can take it from here because I knew that there would, if, if there was one that was ordained, then I could trace that back to the origins and figure out that this whole policy was wrong and teach these people. And um so that’s where it all started. That’s how I, that’s how I got into the church.

[34:04] Michelle: You came to the church with a sense of mission. You came into the church knowing that there was work for you to do in this church, OK.

[34:14] Marvin Perkins: Yeah, I came, I came because of obedience. Because my generally, generally when you see racism and ignorance on that type of display, especially for African Americans who are the most Christ-centered people I know, I mean, just focused on Christ. I mean, coming through slavery, that’s all we had, right? We had to rely so deeply on it, you know, in the post. Slavery era as well. So, you know, when you see uh athletes interviewed, actors and entertainers, I mean, uh, they are by far the most people who are thanking God for this and thanking Christ and so on and so forth. So that’s, that’s who we are and so we’re so focused on that. And then to come to a church and find people who worship prophets and they don’t worship Christ. They don’t even know Christ, I don’t have a relationship with Christ, I don’t have a relationship with the Spirit. It’s like, how could you even want me here? So the number one thing to do is just to walk away cause it’s not the place to be. But I had this poll saying, I want you here, and it’s like, why do you want me here? Like Jonah

[35:21] Michelle: going to Nineveh.

[35:23] Marvin Perkins: Thank you. Exactly, exactly, exactly. So no, it was crazy.

[35:29] Michelle: Yeah, yeah, and, and my gosh, what a testament to your dedication to follow God because that’s, I’m there we go, can you hear me now? It did that thing. OK, what a testament to your dedication to follow God. I just think that’s profound and amazing. I wanna ask you, so I know that people will take issue to the statement of that people in the church, and, and I’m just, you know, I, I understand what you’re saying. So to help people understand because people in the church will take issue to you saying they don’t know God, they don’t know Jesus Christ, they’re not connected to the spirit. That was your experience of being told these things about race, like, like, and so do you think that there could be, um, I, I want to give a little wiggle room, I guess, because I know that there are people who hold very bad ideas who are very led by the spirit in other areas, right? So do you think as a general rule, they’re not connected to God or do you think that there are really good people led by the spirit with some really bad traditions mucking up the water?

[36:35] Marvin Perkins: OK. So, um, I’m gonna point to something and I think every last member will be able to see this. Um, when President Nelson became president of the church, A part of his focus was to focus more on Christ and focus more on the Spirit. By virtue that that was a new message. And that was different from people. It tells you that that wasn’t happening before.

[37:04] Michelle: OK, OK. Yeah, well, I’m not, I’m, I, I, just so you know, I’m not arguing with you. Well, I’m not arguing at all. I wanted to know your perception. I, for decades, I have had the mission, the message that we, that the teaching that the prophet can never lead us astray is not only false. It’s spiritually dangerous and you know, and I’ve taken a lot of heat in my little world, you know, over the years and so I believe I completely agree with you on that message. I guess, um, I just, I’m trying to understand how, well, I, I, anyway, it connects to some questions. I’m trying to know, did Brigham Young do good things in addition to the bad things? How does God work to flawed individuals and

[37:48] Marvin Perkins: He most certainly did, but the opportunity is a test for us, right? Because we’ve got the scriptures. We, we, we’ve got the scriptures. I mean, you can actually read them and understand what you’re supposed to do and what you’re not supposed to do. And so you can’t follow two people, you know, if, you know, if Bob is going right and Mary is going left, and I choose to go with Mary left, and that means I can’t follow Bob. And if I choose to follow Bob, then I can’t follow Mary. So if you’re telling me I should follow a prophet, well, hold on, I, I was told to follow Christ. I mean, and, and, and why would I follow an imperfect source when I can follow a perfect source?

[38:31] Michelle: And as long as they line up perfectly, as long as the prophet and Jesus Christ are right in alignment, we don’t have that problem. As soon as we start seeing the problem is when we each have the choice to make. Am I going to sit in front of this, this person and tell them there’s a curse of Cain, there’s a curse of hand, there’s this, because that’s what the leader said, or am I going to say that is not what God says, that is not what God is saying in my heart, and that’s when you make everybody every minute gets to make that choice of who we follow.

[39:00] Marvin Perkins: So the, so, so here’s a question. So, um, Um, uh. Yes, let’s just take a hypothetical situation. Let’s say that um I’ve got all kinds of messages coming in they’re distracting me because I’m on this phone, uh, but, uh, let’s say it’s a life and death situation. Uh, one wrong answer, one wrong decision. And, and you’re dead. OK. Do you follow Christ or

[39:36] Michelle: prophet? Right. No, you always follow Christ. I was trying to speak to the people have to wake up to people that were raised in the church, like you had a very different experience than I did. I had to learn that Jesus and and the Prophet weren’t the same. Does that make sense? I was raised believing that following the prophet meant following. So I’m just trying to say when you start to see that they’re not the same, that’s your opportunity, right? Like a lot of people that causes cognitive cognitive dissonance and and so if we can wake people up to that discomfort or that or the scriptures say something different, what’s your hierarchy, right? That that’s all I was trying to speak to.

[40:15] Marvin Perkins: No, I see, yeah, I see what you’re speaking to. I’m just speaking to the others because You know, over 30 years I’m dealing with these people who were raised in this way, and they have to be lovingly brought out of there. You know, I can’t walk in with an expectation. They’re just going to see it my way because they don’t have my experience. But the question becomes if you had a choice and it was a life or death situation, would you follow a perfect source or would you follow an imperfect source? Absolutely. And why would you try to figure out why they’re aligned? This is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It’s not the Church of Brigham Young or Joseph Smith, uh, you know, it’s, it’s not any of those, or Gordon B. Hinckley or, you know, Thomas S. Monson or any of those. That’s, that’s not whose church it is. And so, uh, just to give you an idea, um, uh, uh, through our outreach program, one of our coordinators in, in Iowa, uh, had just finished one of our classes, and, um, the eldest corn president was a part of the class and he walked out after, you know, one of the blacks in the scriptures classes and he said, you know, You know, he was moved by what he had, uh, what he had uh saw, what he had heard, he had learned something completely different from the scriptures than he had been taught. And he made this statement, and it just is an indication of where we are as a people, as a church, and it’s, he said, even if the spirit confirmed this was true, I wouldn’t believe it until the prophet said it.

[41:51] Michelle: 00, I see, that’s what I hate. So I don’t want to use the word hate about. I don’t hate that person, but that attitude is so awful. It is the worst part of our our community, our culture, it’s our worst false tradition, I think. Does the most damage because it keeps, it makes people do things worse than what they would do. Those people sitting with you didn’t want to say those things, right? But because of that awful false tradition, they did, and that’s terrible. That’s terrible.

[42:25] Marvin Perkins: Yeah, that’s and we let’s be clear on the tradition. The tradition is follow the prophets. That’s the tradition they get they get you there. You got songs about it too, you know, we start ingraining this from very young age and old exactly. And so that that’s where it starts.

[42:45] Michelle: Absolutely, I agree. So I want, so now let’s move. So you, I, I guess once you learned about Elijah Abel and you’re in this church, so you did take the leap of blind faith and pretty quickly you, you got an anchor point with Elijah Abel and you went to the scriptures. It sounds like to me, do I have, and you started studying this out for real?

[43:06] Marvin Perkins: Is that it? Yeah, yeah, so, uh, what I, what I did is, uh, I’m always in the scriptures, but I also wanted to read every book on the subject. And so I bought every book there was that I could find. I contacted bookstore in Salt Lake and, and, and Deseret, I think it was, and had them send me every book on the subject. If you get a new book on it, send me that too. So I just wanted to study everything. And so what

[43:33] Michelle: had been said by church leaders, every book by the church, every book, is that you mean,

[43:42] Marvin Perkins: yeah, every book within the within the church, but it didn’t necessarily have to be by church leaders. I wanted to study the issue. My method of research is to study everything, study, study it all, compile it, and then analyze and break down uh the truth and just find. Truth, you know, because, you know, I need to understand, read the true and the not true and the things that are somewhere in the middle. I need to get them all. And so after doing that, I, um, for 11 months, I did a, just a, a really immersive study for about 11 months. Um, I came up with this conclusion. My early findings were, this is wrong and this is why and so on and so forth, and I sent it up to um uh The first counselor in the first presidency at that time was Thomas Momson. And so I sent it up to President Monson, and I thought, you gotta share this during general conference, you know, because the members are teaching completely the wrong things, are causing a lot of people and they’re misrepresenting Christ, you know, and um he wrote back and he said, you share the message, start small in your wards and in your quorums and let the message grow that way. And I was a little, I was a little bothered by that, you know, cause I’m thinking people need help right now.

[45:02] Michelle: So you had done all of this work to be able to quite definitively show in scripture and history what the truth was, and you asked for help saying, hey, look, I’ve done this work for you. I’ll give it to you. And you can help save when I say my people, I mean people of my common ancestry and people of my church because the church needs to be saved. Like the, the fact that that my people in the church are still doing this and keeping my brothers and sisters out of the church of different descents is painful. So anyway, I just, you had, you gave this to them clear back and that would have been in the 90s, right? Was President Hinckley?

[45:42] Marvin Perkins: No, no it was, it was 1989.

[45:46] Michelle: Oh, you said that in 1989 and you were told. No, you powerless member with no with no, you know, vehicle and no audience and no you’re, you just have to do this yourself. We’re not going to help is basically what they said, we’re not gonna help you. So we don’t, we’re not gonna, we’re not gonna try and fix this. Sorry, I just that’s so upsetting to me,

[46:12] Marvin Perkins: OK? You know, I trust me, I get it. I gotta tell you I, I, I love President Hinckley. We worked together for many years throughout this thing, but he did most of the work behind the scenes. He wanted to do more, but what I would find, which I did not understand. Um, later, cause I wasn’t happy with when he wrote that, but he didn’t give me a choice, so I started doing it. And about 5 years after that I had learned so much more about the subject than I had written him that I was really glad that he told me what he did because now I was in a position to help more people. And so I was like great, but not only did I learn that, but I learned more about the opposition within the ranks of the church and within the ranks of church leadership and how it wasn’t so easy for him to just say what I wanted to say because if he said what I wanted to say, many members that don’t look like me, many members that look like you would have just left the church in large numbers. And so it wasn’t just about if you fix my problem, I’ll be happy. And other people are gonna suffer. It’s like, no, we gotta find a way to make sure everybody is taken care of. Everybody is strengthened, you know, you don’t, you know, push one out just to bring one in. Um, you have to, you just gotta have the lot.

[47:41] Michelle: Yeah, I hear you because I did an episode on the RLDS church and that’s what they did. They went really far, really fast and alienated a huge portion of their membership. But the challenge I’m finding here is that I like, I’m thinking back to me as a little girl in the 80s, you know, and my parents, my family, if and, and we were in the middle of Salt Lake, my dad, you know, was, my parents were raised with all of these ideas definitely and. And um, but if something had come out from the church leadership to explain that that had been a mistake, I don’t know anyone that would have left. I don’t know anyone that would have left any more than they did in ’78. I don’t know anyone that wouldn’t have rejoiced. And so even that is hard for me because it feels like, no, we’re gonna keep. Doing these, believing these lies and keeping these people from the church who could be benefited and blessed by the church, right? So that we can like, so that old racist grandma grandpa Hank doesn’t get his panties in a twist. Do you know what I mean like that’s how it seems to me. It’s hard for me to really because I’m I’m speaking too. I I don’t like it when I don’t like the low expectation thing like oh white people can’t be expected to get past. No, that was not my experience, you know, like I think I, I, I would have been very surprised if people would have left the church. So I have to think that there are other, I mean, I, I agree with. You with a gentle touch, a gentle approach, but there could have been something spoken to. Look at these scriptures. Look at how God wants us to love all of our brothers and sisters in this way to interpret. I can’t see that offending people to leave the church. I appreciate your sensitive approach. I still don’t understand it.

[49:30] Marvin Perkins: Well, um, so you get more with that sense of approach, but you also have to keep in mind some of the other teachings that were there. You know, Alvin Der preaching from the podium that we must not let the Negro integrate. You know, uh, President Lee, uh, uh, teaching at BYU, we don’t wanna see, we don’t want to see the presence of African Americans on the BYU campus. I mean this was taught so deeply. I mean the racism was so deep as a matter of fact, some of the civil rights leaders, you know, say. That the South was not the most racist place. It was Utah because the rest of the world was just ignorant. Utah was not only ignorant, but they actually believed, they believed they had a God-based belief that their that their that their that their ignorance was, was valid, you know, and so, yeah,

[50:23] Michelle: so worse than my experience,

[50:26] Marvin Perkins: OK, yeah, indeed, indeed.

[50:28] Michelle: All right, OK, OK, that’s good to know. I still feel like, man, rein them in. Expect them to follow the prophet, right? OK, but I mean, and I guess it brings up the question how deep was it? Maybe it was in the top leadership. I know that President Kimball had to come to the awareness that he needed to repent and that the brethren needed to repent in order to reverse the ban. Maybe they’re still. Needed to be more personal grappling with top leadership, people even in top leadership, so. OK, so I, I, I would love to just spend more time getting into what you learned in the scriptures. I’m going to link some of your talks below. Is there a way to kind of encapsulate? Um, I loved one thing you said where you said, whenever you read skin in the scriptures, replace it with spirit. And if you read black or white, replace it with either wickedness, gloominess, or righteousness and purity, that it’s not talking about physical skin color. It’s not talking about pigment. It’s a spiritual idiom, I think is the word you use. Am I getting this right?

[51:36] Marvin Perkins: Uh, it is, yes, yeah, yeah, and, and the cultural idioms, and I think the beauty of the, the, the beauty of that whole project is that Uh, uh, we were, where were we? I think we were in Sweden, and there were several, um, speakers, um, including Sharon. Sharon was over there as well as one of the speakers, uh. But they were talking about Trying to Prove the Book of Mormon through, you know, ancient artifacts and, you know, things of that nature, and I’m like, I mean, you don’t need that to prove the Book of Mormon. You can actually use the idioms. I mean, look at the language the idioms in the Book of Mormon match the idioms used in the Old Testament. That’s how you prove that the Book of Mormon is an ancient document. I mean, simply because we, and it’s like you don’t, you don’t need ancient artifacts. You look at the, the, the cultural language and because idioms are idioms of our time. And when you think about, you know, we have words in our time right now that people would Never understand back then like

[52:50] Michelle: it’s raining cats and dogs, right? It’s raining cats and dogs are

[52:54] Marvin Perkins: yes, I mean, I mean just like Wi Fi 5G, all of those things. I mean they, they would never understand if you were using those words, they would understand that those were words used at a time about where we are right now in this time period, but when you look. And you see that they were using words like black to describe the inside, the gloominess, the dejection, that they, you can see all the scriptures and how they line up consistently. You can see where even an LDF scripture that is heavily criticized, but you go to the Old Testament and you see it has footnotes to give clarification that other scriptures don’t. And Other versions of the scriptures have changed the words because they didn’t understand those things. And it’s like, that’s how you prove the Book of Mormon is an ancient document. You match the idioms, you look at the language, the language and the culture that was speaking, the meanings that were, you know, associated with those particular words, and then you know, you know, so, uh, you can ask whether the, you know, pray about whether the Book of Mormon is divine or not. Whether it’s divine guidance, but there’s no doubt in my mind whether it’s ancient scripture or not, uh, because it, I mean, whether it’s an ancient document, because the idioms match up with the Old Testament idioms.

[54:17] Michelle: That’s amazing. OK, I’m so glad you shared that, and that’s, that’s really cool to know. And I also, as I was thinking about this, I also think that our silly, like, um, when Jesus says, I tell all to come onto me, um, and none are I’m not quoting it well, but black, white, bond free, male female, right? I think we. They’re actually missing part of what it’s teaching, because if we take, like you said, that idiom of what black and white meant, which meant either like of a of a gloomy spirit heavy or it can mean wicked and righteous, or it can mean the the spiritual, like your aura is dark, right? You have this gloominess or you’re shining and it’s saying. All of you, like we’re leaving those whole categories out, right? And we’re not recognizing what God doesn’t curse people with like that’s that’s the idea that skin color is a curse is blatantly horrifically racist. Get done with that.

[55:19] Marvin Perkins: Well, especially if you know, and I’m going to say it’s blatantly ignorant. Because when you understand what a curse is, a curse is a separation from God, His path or His ways due to your own choices. It can’t affect skin color. It, it’s almost like, it’s almost like saying I’m going to um. Yeah, I don’t, I can’t even think of a great

[55:45] Michelle: I have right, it’s, it’s like in the New Testament when the people say to Jesus, when the disciples say to Jesus, who did sin, this man or his parents that he was born blind. They were seeing blindness as a curse from God, as a as a result of sin, right? And Jesus corrected that. neither. This isn’t a result of, you know, like, like how would we feel if someone said, oh, you have a handicap. That child. Well, either they were not valiant in the pre-existence or you parents were sinful. That’s the same idea, right? That’s what we need to help people understand how truly horrific this idea is that that would never be OK, right? And so, so I love that you have taken this because the people that want to just throw out the Book of Mormon and claim that it’s a racist document. Right, are realizing they’d have to also throw out the Bible because I love how you compared the idioms from lamentations and Joel and Job and like, like it’s all, it’s all there in both books.

[56:52] Marvin Perkins: I think that’s and the beauty of that for me. The beauty of that for me is I challenge people on the Book of Mormon and I challenge them on certain sections of the doctrine and covenants, and the majority of the doctrine and covenants, there are some sections that are questionable, but, um, ask yourself, can you see God in those things? You know, can you see God in it? And in the, in the Book of Mormon, there’s no racism in there. There’s not a shred of racism in there. You know, and when somebody says there is, and they take me to those passages, I say, OK, let me show you what this means. And then when we go through each one of those, they’re convinced there’s no racism in the Book of Mormon, and it’s like, OK, so what else do you have? There’s no racism in there, so you need to view this document. I mean, again, these idioms match up to Old Testament idioms and so this is clearly an ancient document. You just pray about it, use the relationship that you have with God. Don’t ever take my word for a thing. Use the relationship you have with God and just ask about whether this is something that is true. This is something that is ancient scripture, this is something that is of value for you. And so, but there’s no dispute on whether this is an ancient document.

[58:04] Michelle: OK, Marvin, do you have these, um, fresh enough in your brain? Do you, you know, sometimes you do a deep study, but you don’t always remember everything. We, since this is on polygamy, I spend a lot of time in Jacob 2 and 3, which are there is racism there if you want to read the book of like those are some of the main ones people pull out to say the Book of Mormon is racist. Could we do a little experiment right now and you take us through Jacob? Do you have that? Yeah,

[58:29] Marvin Perkins: you pick up the scripture and I’ll I’ll go through it and we’ll walk through it. And, and, and I love and I love Jacob 3 too because Jacob 3 speaks to polygamy.

[58:40] Michelle: Both of them do, both Jacob 2 and Jacob 3.

[58:43] Marvin Perkins: Yes, speaks against it. So, all right,

[58:46] Michelle: yep, both of them are, I think that Jacob 2 and Jacob 3 are some of the most misunderstood scriptures along with if we have time to get to Doctrine and Covenants 1. That’s another one that is a badly misunderstood scripture.

[59:00] Marvin Perkins: If you only read one section of doctrine and covenants to be able to understand the truth and the equality of man, it should be section 1. But go ahead.

[59:09] Michelle: OK, so I’m really hoping we’ll have time to get into that. So let’s go to, let’s go to Jacob 38 and 9. Right, is that, and it says, oh my brethren and I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins, that their skins will be whiter than yours when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God. Wherefore a commandment I give unto you, which is the which is the word of God that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins. Neither shall you revile against them because of their filthiness. But ye shall remember your own filthiness and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers.

[59:44] Marvin Perkins: OK. So, Um, We can take this out of context, we can just read the scripture or we can read all of the scriptures. And so whenever we’re going through an exercise like this, the very first thing I’m gonna do is I’m going to walk them over to, so put a pin in this and let’s go on over to uh the Old Testament because we got to get a foundation, right? And so I’m gonna go here and let’s go into um let’s take Jeremiah 8:21.

[1:00:23] Michelle: OK, I’m getting there. You read it as soon as you have it.

[1:00:26] Marvin Perkins: OK. So Jeremiah 8:21. And it says, for the hurt of the daughters of my people, I am hurt, I am black. Astonishment had taken hold of me, and it has a footnote on the word black, uh, that takes you to two of my favorites, OK? But first of all, Jacob, I’m sorry, Jeremiah 8:21 tells you that the word black is a Hebrew idiom. OK, so when you hear idiom, that doesn’t mean what you think it means, it means something completely different and another culture and language, OK? And so, but here’s you, whatever you think it means it doesn’t, here’s what it actually means. It means gloomy. And then it’s like sends you to Joel 26 and Naam 210 that

[1:01:14] Michelle: I just the the Old Testament uses couplets like it says the same thing in two different ways. So it says I am, I am black. That’s, that’s that for us. It’s just repeating itself.

[1:01:29] Marvin Perkins: Exactly, exactly. Um, and, uh, you compare this to Joel 2:6 and Naam 2:10, which tells you the exact same thing. Uh, and even go over to the inner linear Bible, which is a direct translation from the Greek and the Hebrew, and it gives you the exact same thing. So there’s no way to make this mean anything else other than what it actually means. Now, when you go over to So I,

[1:01:56] Michelle: so Joel, Joel 2 says, behold their face, their face, the people shall be much painted. All faces shall gather blackness. There’s Joel and then Naam, and the problem is, as Mormons, we don’t know the Old Testament well enough to make these connections that you’ve made for us. If we knew the Old Testament better, we wouldn’t be so offended by the Book of Mormon that came from the same period.

[1:02:18] Marvin Perkins: That’s why I can’t stand seeing missionaries carry only the Book of Mormon. If they were to carry only if they were only to carry one book, it should be the Bible, you know, because that’s your common bond, that’s your bridge, right? We believe the same things. Let us help you, uh, and so yeah, they missing all the gold.

[1:02:35] Michelle: I just want all the missionaries out there and the parents of missionaries to imagine if your missionary went out armed with these verses. Can you imagine the different experience, the joy, the like you’re talking about that discomfort, the joy you could have saying look, this is actually evidence of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon because it’s connected with these. Things it’s not racist. It’s, that’s amazing.

[1:03:00] Marvin Perkins: So Michelle, let me give you an example there. So, uh, we started all of our outreach stuff in uh Fort Lauderdale. That’s where we started our outreach team. Uh, there was an African American bishop, uh, Fred Bethel down there, and, um, we, uh, took a bunch of missionaries, uh, two sets of missionaries who had had Who had gone to neighborhoods who had doors slammed in their face and get off my porch and don’t ever come back. And we taught them these things, and we taught them the approach and how to go back in there. They went back into those same neighborhoods where they had doors slammed on them, and after like, you know, 2 days they had 14 families they were teaching. That’s the difference in an area where the doors were shut off, so truth opens doors exactly. I mean, so we turned that mission into the number one baptizing mission, uh, with its first year is the number one baptizing mission, the increase over the prior year, and then we turned it into the number one baptizing mission in North America and so you can do things with truth.

[1:04:09] Michelle: OK, so assignment to all LDS parents, this is your mission prep for your kids. I’m serious. This has to be mission prep for the kids. This, this is profound and so important. Our missionaries need to go out armed with truth. That’s what

[1:04:26] Marvin Perkins: they

[1:04:26] Michelle: need.

[1:04:27] Marvin Perkins: And, and let me tell every last one of your listeners, I, I’m gonna reinforce the statement you just made. I worked with the MTC for over 15 years trying to get them to teach these truths to the missionaries because this is the number one question coming into the MTC. Hundreds of calls. every day more than any other, and they still will not allow these truths to be taught there. And that’s like, we don’t have, I, I’ll just want to give them a scripture reference guide. Let’s just give them a scripture reference guide where they, it’s like, no, they, they, they won’t let them have it. And so parents, if you are not teaching your missionaries. If you are not teaching your missionaries before they go out on their mission, they’re not going to get it. They’re gonna go out there, they’re gonna have doors slammed in their face, and have aggression toward them. They’re gonna have people that, and the worst part about it is not that. The worst part about it is those people that they love so much that they want to share something with, but they can’t because they were not prepared when they went out and you expected the MTC to do it when it’s your responsibility.

[1:05:30] Michelle: That’s and and they’re going to have that awful experience of saying things that that like you talk like saying those things that separates you from God and you will regret that your whole life. You will think back your whole life when you’ve learned more of those people that you sat. I mean, I think most of us can relate to that, right? I hear a lot of missionaries talking about that. I have to tell you at the same time my son was just at the MTC in Provo a couple months ago and the trainer. Bore her testimony of the truthfulness of polygamy. And that’s if, if the race question is the number one question, polygamy’s got to be the number 2. Maybe they, maybe they’re a head to head because those are, you know, those are the big reasons people leave the church, I think, and we are still testifying. I’m guessing if they wouldn’t accept your scriptures, then maybe they are still saying we don’t know, we don’t know what it means. They’re trying to soft pedal, trying to avoid. verses, which is awful because it should be, oh what are they teaching? You tell me what they’re teaching at the MTC.

[1:06:34] Marvin Perkins: So yeah, so, uh, and I can’t say for sure because I’m not there, but I know that one of the leaders at the MTC, his life was changed by watching our DVD series, and we had some very personal conversations and Uh, when he told me how much it impacted him, I was just in tears. I was in tears because it’s finally, after years and years and years and years, we’re finally gonna prepare these sisters and these brothers to go out and just to maximize their mission and their own spiritual growth, and they’ll be and everything a missionary writes home to their family. Family is gold. It is absolute gold. And so, you know, not only are the all the missionaries that we do impact in the field, they’re writing back home to their families and it’s just changing their families and it’s growing exponentially and it’s so beautiful. So I’m just in tears and I’m thinking, you know, OK, we’re gonna finally start teaching this, and I, and I asked, so when can we start teaching? And he says, Marvin, they won’t let me teach it.

[1:07:39] Michelle: Why, why I. I can’t even Imagine what that did to you.

[1:07:48] Marvin Perkins: It helped me to understand, it helped me to understand that I will never Sit around and wait for somebody else to do something that I can do myself. So I may, I may not be able to do everything, but the things that I can do, I will do, and I won’t wait for anybody else.

[1:08:11] Michelle: And I’m realizing I’m sitting here as we’re talking formatting the letter I’m writing to my son because I didn’t prepare him adequately. I didn’t think about this. I hadn’t had it fresh on my mind. I knew I was thrilled to learn it and it’s been in our discussions, but I didn’t give him the a laminated card with with the points of the scriptures he needs to go to. That’s what they need. They need to be armed.

[1:08:36] Marvin Perkins: They, they, they do need to be armed. They do, and Michelle, one thing that’s really critical and important is you got to understand is that it is so important that the parents arm them before they go out because otherwise one person can stop a whole show. Um, we did. Uh, a phenomenal work. I mean, Gladys Knight and her choir were doing a tremendous job going out generating tons, I mean thousands, a couple 1000 referrals and requests, and, uh, but they all have questions about the African-American the race issue. Um, hold on a second, my angel. Um, OK. That’s the love of my life calling me. She doesn’t know that I’m still still doing this, but, uh, um. Um,

[1:09:32] Michelle: you said that they don’t know about the Gladys Knight was doing the work, the calls are coming into the MDC asking this question.

[1:09:39] Marvin Perkins: Yeah, but, but she, she gets thousands of referrals, a couple 1000 referrals and requests when she goes to areas that have predominantly African American um uh uh uh brothers and sisters there, but then they have the questions about race in the priesthood and um Uh, they are not teaching them the truth, even though they have it. I’ve taught them, but they’ve got somebody else, some other gentleman that’s given them some document that basically says, in a very eloquent way, yes, there was something wrong with you. And that’s, and so none of these people would join the church. I talked to a mission president up in the Atle area and um um. He told me that they had Gladys Knight and I was like, OK, how many requests did you have? He said, like we had like, you know, uh, 980 requests, and I said, um, you know, how many of those got baptized and we had 5 baptisms from that. And I said, that’s terrible. And he said, he, he said terrible. And I said, I said, President, you have a business. 980 people walk into your store. 975 of them walk out and say no, thank you. How do you feel about your business? You, you, you have some changes you need to make. I mean, how long are you gonna be in business? You know, so the thing is, is that Um, And going back to the um uh Virginia area, we did a series of like 5 firesides, we donated over 1000 DVDs so the missionaries can have, you know, all the missionaries can have the DVDs, we taught them, we trained them on exactly, they were like, teach us, train us on exactly what we do need to do to take advantage of this Gladys Knight concert that’s coming up. And so we did everything, and they did everything but the final step. And so they end up getting the highest amount of uh referrals that they had received to date, which was, I think they cracked just over 2000. They’ve probably done more since then, but um uh They only had a handful of baptisms as well because they wouldn’t follow the final step and it’s like, you know, you know, talking to

[1:12:00] Michelle: the mission of teaching this part of it. What’s the final step?

[1:12:04] Marvin Perkins: We gave them a, we gave them a 4 or 5 step process and instead of getting into the other steps, the 5th step was to go out with each of those investigators with a member and with our DVD series and watch the first segment with him called Blacks in the Bible. And when you, when you watch that segment with any person of African descent, you can then teach them anything, OK?

[1:12:34] Michelle: You can teach them not on DVD. Are they just digitally to watch online?

[1:12:38] Marvin Perkins: Uh, yes, they can go to um. OK, so we’re moving everything over to Marvin Perkins.com, uh, but, but for right now, they can, um, um, yeah, we’re, we’re just building out Marvin Perkins.com, uh, so that’s going to have all of our, um, we have an online course where we help people get back to work, uh, faster. Um, because that’s my, that’s my, uh, my profession and my career that actually helps us to, uh, fund all of the humanitarian stuff that I do around the world. And so we’re kind of bringing those two worlds together and putting everything on one site. But until now they can go to Rainthepriesthood.com or Rainhepriesthood.org, and they can find all of our videos, all of them free of charge.

[1:13:25] Michelle: OK, I’ll link those. Maybe you can send me the links if I don’t have them, and I’ll make sure that they’re linked in the description box.

[1:13:31] Marvin Perkins: So,

[1:13:31] Michelle: OK, that’s because this sounds like it’s so important. Do you have the 5 steps listed on, on that, either Marvin Perkins or the Race in the.

[1:13:39] Marvin Perkins: Yeah, so just know that every organization, every place that we go around the country and around the world, and we design something specific for that particular area. And so we sit down and we do a discovery, we do a needs analysis and figure out what is it you’re trying to accomplish, and then we can design something, prayerfully design something specific for that area. And this last step, the Mission president was trying to get the permission from the area authority to to go ahead and do that and I, I told him I said he’s not going to give you, he’s going to let you do what you need to do. He’s not gonna give it to you. And if you don’t do this, then that means thousands of people are not gonna join the church or have the church as a result of it. And so he was just like, Marvin, I gotta give him a chance. I’m, you know, he was just afraid. He was afraid. So we’re so afraid. Exactly, exactly. And so, and why are they afraid? Because the brethren are not teaching it.

[1:14:46] Michelle: Mhm. Because there’s that, yeah, like I’m sitting here wondering, is a missionary going to get in trouble for teaching these things that this is what the Book of Mormon means when it should be the most joyful thing, but you have to wonder, like, you know, like we have such roulette leadership roulette that it’s tricky.

[1:15:05] Marvin Perkins: Well, but the thing is, is that the more people speak up and speak out again, the more acceptable it has, it has become. You know, uh, people weren’t speak and so you just have to speak up. You have to speak up. You got to do what is right.

[1:15:22] Michelle: There should be a 5th Sunday meeting in every ward or in every state, and if it hasn’t happened yet, talk to your leadership and make sure that there is a meeting on these topics showing the videos or at least giving the information, right, because I think the more the members understand it and then it can grow, it it can bubble up from the bottom, right? That’s, that’s how things happen. That’s how it has to happen.

[1:15:46] Marvin Perkins: But you have to have no fear. You have this, I mean, look at the covenants that you made. You made a covenant to take truth forward, right? You know, to the saints, to proclaim the gospel, to redeem the dead, to do, you know, and to care for the poor and the needy. Are you going to honor those covenants?

[1:16:03] Michelle: All we have to look at is God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but if Of a love and of a sound mind, you can do nothing for God out of fear, and fear will stop you from doing what God wants you to do. Did Jonah have fear to go to Nineveh? Did Sammy the Lamanite have fear to stand on the wall? Did a Benidite have fear, right? If you’re, if you’re being led by fear, you’re not being led by God. And so it really limits how God can use you.

[1:16:27] Marvin Perkins: So is one of the biggest control tactics we have. And so when you see fear, uh, control is The control is uh not too far behind.

[1:16:40] Michelle: Right, right, and especially I think I, I like what you said about, I mean I don’t like it, but I like how you pointed out that the Utas can be the most racist because we um have done it in the name of God, right? That’s what it means to take the Lord of the the name of the Lord in vain is to say God says this and we’ve done that against races and we’ve definitely done it against women we’ve, you know, and so that’s. But that’s what we’re trying to fight against in every realm I think is, is, I think it’s, I really like what you’re doing because it feels similar to what I’m doing in the terms of we are trying to help us be better with love. We’re not anti-Mormons. We are people who love the church and see the value in it and want it to be its best. I would say if I can speak on your behalf.

[1:17:28] Marvin Perkins: Oh, well, uh, absolutely, and, but I will tell you, you cover some things that’s like, yeah, that too, because, you know, in this whole study on priesthood and who it was supposed to go to and who it wasn’t, um, there is nothing in the scriptures uh that uh says that women aren’t supposed to have that priesthood and, uh, everything that talks about priesthood says it’s supposed to go to all. So, um, we throw that in there as well.

[1:17:57] Michelle: I’m always trying to, I have the same thing with the Old Testament. Can we please start talking about Deborah and Holda and other prophetesses and judges in Israel and you know, people that the officials went to for revelation and they happen to be women, and I don’t, I, I am fine, absolutely fine that men and women are different. I just think that when it comes down to control, right, like. I think we claim to have answers that we do not have. That’s, I guess what I, you know.

[1:18:29] Marvin Perkins: Well, and that’s, that’s, that’s part of the culture that uh along with the LDS culture comes in arrogance, right? Uh, that we’re the one true one true church and so, and, and, and that we have to have the answers and we have to be able to way to explain the stuff that we have. Sometimes we just don’t have those answers. Like if most people understood exactly how the uh Bible was put together, they’d understand that there’s a lot missing. They It was a pick and choose situation. It wasn’t a, you know, all of these are defined. There were, there, there were, there were attempts to water down the, the, the equality and the, uh, the, the equality in the significant role of women. Um, I mean, just there are many things in there that were, um. Put together for a purpose with a certain agenda in mind. And so if they understood those things, uh, they’d be a little more open. So we’ve got to find a way to kind of, uh, open up that arrogance like our missionaries, they go out with such arrogance with their message and it’s like you don’t know anything. You’re just repeating what you’ve been told to say.

[1:19:35] Michelle: Yeah, yeah, and. Isn’t it interesting? Doesn’t the Book of Mormon have something to say about pride to our day? Isn’t it interesting to know, like, God maybe knows what he’s talking about and maybe we should pay attention because we are so prideful. It’s.

[1:19:51] Marvin Perkins: So, so whenever, whenever I hear a uh LDS person tell me that they are not a scriptorian, I say, why not? You’re you’re wearing the, you’re wearing the badge, you’re wearing the uniform. Why not? Why wouldn’t you be? I mean, it’s like going to a, like going to a doctor saying, hey, I don’t know medical stuff.

[1:20:13] Michelle: Then why are you why do you claim to be a doctor? Why do you claim to be a disciple of Jesus Christ?

[1:20:19] Marvin Perkins: Yeah. So, and what it comes down to, Michelle, in my experience, that for the majority of members, and I’m not saying all of them because there are some phenomenally deep scriptural, spiritually connected following Christ’s members, um, but for the majority of the LDS members that I’ve come across around the world, uh, it’s a way of life. It’s a way of it’s, it’s definitely cultural and not spiritual. It’s a way of life and so that’s why you, that’s why you see that contrast and that difference between, you know, a me and you and some of the others is because they’re there for different reasons and that’s OK too.

[1:21:01] Michelle: Yeah, and I think they are spiritual in their culture and are, you know, I think they are genuinely good people. I love the people who engage with your work or who engage with my work and who are thrilled to find answers in the scriptures. We all don’t have to find all of the answers. I didn’t have to do all of. Work on race and what black and white means in the scriptures because you did it, but I got to, you know what I mean like, but like, but I got to benefit from it as if I had done it because it resonated so strongly with me, right? And so everyone out there. Those, those who are hungry for truth will, you know, it’s very much what the scriptures teach that those who are hungry for it will recognize it and will accept it with gladness.

[1:21:43] Marvin Perkins: Yeah, and my thing is that whatever you have a passion for, whatever seems to be moving you or sticking, you know, sticking like uh this needle in your side or what have you, that’s probably because you’re supposed to go. that develop some exactly and if we all magnified our calling like that, we can all benefit from each other’s, you know, work and our passions and so I think that I think everything that we do compliments each other. So I, I love that you’re out here,

[1:22:13] Michelle: absolutely. Thank you. And I want to point out just going back to this idea of black and white in the scriptures. How like this just occurred to me. I should have earlier, you know, years ago when I was looking at your work, but how silly do you think that God would categorize God’s children in that way? Like if because you, you point out that the man, and I won’t remember his name who first came up with the races and it was red, white, what. OK, right, so if we’re going to say, and so we are attributing a post Blumenbach um paradigm where we talk about black and white, which really wasn’t done before in that same way. And if God was talking about that, then he would have said black, white, red, yellow, brown, bond and free, you know, he wouldn’t have only talked about two categories of his. Children, so it’s really a silly, like once you see that and you go, oh, black and white in the scriptures never means race. That’s our, like that’s a really bad form of presentism presentism that we put on the scriptures. So I think that your work is just crucial and it’s heartbreaking that it hasn’t been. Shouted from the rooftops and I guess that’s because that’s all our job. We all need to do it.

[1:23:31] Marvin Perkins: Well, you know something exactly we can’t expect for somebody else to do something that we see, you know, because as I learned in President Hinckley’s situation, you know, there are factors working against, you know, him coming out and doing things like this and saying things like that, and some of them are not so pleasant, you know, uh, some of them are. Yeah, it, it is, and, and the reality of it is, uh, the reality of it is that um the Church is Really driven by tithing dollars. Really driven by ti tithing

[1:24:16] Michelle: still with how much wealth they have, like, like we’re still driven by tithing. I mean, we’ve got a lot.

[1:24:24] Marvin Perkins: Listen, uh, greed never diminishes. It only increases.

[1:24:30] Michelle: And OK, and maybe it’s just an institutional momentum where it’s kind of like, oh, we can’t do something that would hurt this institution that we are called to steward. Maybe it’s not that the individual leaders are greedy so much as they just feel fear, fear of messing anything up.

[1:24:47] Marvin Perkins: So here’s, here’s what I say. Um, uh, there was a guy named Huey Brown, and Hubie Brown was in the first presidency, and when the priesthood restriction was still in place. Um, and they all realized that it was wrong, but they kept it in place anyway, cause they didn’t know how to turn around and they didn’t want to turn it around. So they all know it was wrong, but Hubie Brown was like, if we know this is wrong, we need to change it, we need to do something about it. And he fought and he spoke out, and he spoke out, and it didn’t matter what happened to him, he spoke out. And they got to the point where they said, OK, you can, you can no longer speak in general conference. And so they would not allow, but they allow them to pray. What did Huy Brown do? Uh, I don’t know if I’m getting this number right, but he gave like a 45 minute prayer on. The whole race and the priesthood issue and

[1:25:45] Michelle: can we find that is that that’s not on LDS.org. OK,

[1:25:50] Marvin Perkins: of course it’s not gonna be, it’s not, not at that time. That’s gonna be something that’s buried, right? And so but the thing is, my point is. Is that prior to 1978, Hubie Brown realized what was right, and he was trying to do that regardless of what happened to him. OK. And so anybody who realizes today what is right and they still go along with it is complicit. I don’t care who they are.

[1:26:20] Michelle: Absolutely, I agree with you.

[1:26:22] Marvin Perkins: And so, so let’s, let’s get back to tithing. Um, there are, we went over to Sweden to do the presentation, um, because, um, there was a, a member of the 70 who had left the church and a lot of people were following him out. And Hans

[1:26:40] Michelle: Matson, right,

[1:26:41] Marvin Perkins: yeah, Hans Matson, and, um, you know, I first started, uh, connecting with Hans. I connected with Hans so I can talk him back into the church. OK. And, and then I, you know, because it’s like I can talk anybody back into the church, you know, and, um,

[1:26:59] Michelle: not because of your power of persuasion, but because you have, you have information that God can testify truthfulness to, right? Anyway, sorry, I just wanted to like talk about the power of it.

[1:27:12] Marvin Perkins: Yeah, but I do have the power of persuasion and I’ve known that for a long time and that’s why I’ve I was really careful of what church I belonged to. I joined because I didn’t want to preach for the wrong, uh, you know, for the wrong efforts. But, uh, anyway, I said before I reach out to Hans, I mean, we connected, uh, uh, social media, but before I reach out to him, let me, let me listen to what he’s talking about. And I, I just couldn’t have found a more gentle and a sweeter spirit, you know, from him and his wife out there, and it was just absolutely tremendous and some of the things Uh, that bothered him with the church’s, um, uh, business-like push toward, um, uh, tithing dollars in areas that they would preach and would not preach in because we get more tithing dollars here and then we get more people who are dependent on church resources here. And so, that. OK. So when you have that, and then you add it to section 119. So you’re someone who loves the scriptures. So if you go to section 119, section 119 is one of the shortest passages in the uh doctrine and covenants, uh, the shortest chapters or sections, and it tells you clearly that tithing is supposed to be 10% of your surplus, not 10% of your income. Mhm. And, and so yeah we are, you know, denying members entrance, uh, you know, pay to play in the temple, uh, so you can’t go unless you’re giving us 10% of your income versus 10% of your surplus, you know, if it was your surplus, everybody could be a full time pair, right? Everybody, but, but to, but to preach to pay your tithing before you take care of your family. That’s I,

[1:29:07] Michelle: I, it’s, it’s really, really, I, I really believe that the savior with the widow giving her last two mites, the savior was condemning the society that there was a widow in that situation, that her only hope to not starve was having to throw in her last two mites with a hope and a prayer that, you know, and then go home and die and I love that. And I think that we compare this, we have this message of you are my hands, you know, speaking of people who were released from the first presidency, Hubie Brown and President Odorf, it’s a small club, you know, but he gave the talk on you are my hands talking about Jesus and we are called to be the savior in this, in this world. We are called to take care of the poor, right? But instead we have this weird mindset where if you pay your tithing, God will. Take care of you and then we sort of alleviate ourselves from the burden thinking, oh, they need to pay their tithing and God will bless them without recognizing God sent us there to bless them, right? And so it’s a really, really painful reality that I hope can get fixed soon because it, it’s, it’s not good. It’s not good. And then what you added to it that we are not even preaching to the poor in some areas because It’s because it’s a drain on the system that that just that hurts to hear. That’s hard.

[1:30:32] Marvin Perkins: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So again, we have the answers. We’ve had the answers for an awful long time. Why else would we not apply them? Um, we had I want to say In one ward, uh, down in Georgia, we did over 150 baptisms in a year and a half, and um the members stopped coming to church cause they didn’t want to mix with them.

[1:31:01] Michelle: Oh man.

[1:31:04] Marvin Perkins: And so these are the kind of things when you, when you, when you start doing the work, these are the type of things that you see out there and all of this is a result of church leaders. Putting these racist teachings into place and leaving them there. And that’s why I’m saying the restriction is still in place. People think that just because one part of it has been uh changed and overturned. I mean, you still have 3, you, you still got 3 solid walls there, you know, the teachings, uh, you know, the perceptions, you know, and, and, and the practices, they’re still there.

[1:31:40] Michelle: Oh, OK, OK, can you tell me a little bit about your outreach? I want you to be able to talk about what it is that you’ve set up and what you do and how we can help, you know, in addition to trying to. Uh, trying to not be the people that are going to not go to church anymore if too many different kinds of people come.

[1:32:01] Marvin Perkins: Yeah, well, there, there’s a couple of things that I’m working on right now. So, um, uh, my work has been Um So transformative. Uh, the, uh, and, and, and when I say my work has been so transformative, uh, it has done more to transform me than anything else. You know, I am such a different person. Um, um, I am such a gro I, I’ve grown so much more than I can, I, I can tell you, and, uh, You know, I thought that everything that I was doing was for others, and they have benefited from it, but it’s, it’s really been for me.

[1:32:43] Michelle: And so I think the way it is. I think that’s, that’s was even for Jesus, it was the same thing.

[1:32:49] Marvin Perkins: Yeah, but, and the thing is, is that we don’t know that going into it. And so I want to preface this part of the message by saying, stand up, you know, follow those passions, whatever’s driving you, put every effort into it, give your all, have no fear because it will help other people, but it’s gonna help you more than it’s gonna help anybody. And so it’s been really transformative for me, which has been phenomenal. Um, uh, the work that we did was basically to take the work that I have and, you know, exponentially spread that throughout the world. You know, President Utdorf, I believe, had a, was he the one that left where you stand, uh, presentation. Um, and that’s really what it is. And so what I would do, uh, uh, Fred and I, we would train coordinators throughout the country and around the world to kind of go through our classes and we have, we, we, we have a structure, uh, of, uh, videos, uh, the 4 videos in the, uh, Blacks in the Scripture series and the one that we we did in Sweden. And so they, we’d have them take them through those 5, give them scripture reference guides over a 5-week period, 6-week period. Uh, and, and, and, and bring neighbors and missionaries together, uh, to watch those in their homes, so you don’t need church leader support or permission because when you need that, you get somebody who thinks he has to have power over something and, and just kind of gets in the way of it. And so, uh, grassroots program that help people that want to make a difference and so people have to have the vision for themselves in order to do that. Um, so that’s the African. American outreach program that we turned into the B1 project because we started getting um uh corporations that wanted presentations of other colleges and universities and other civic organizations who wanted to do something and so we do community events and we do firesides, but we do uh custom projects for people, like I said, go in and do a discovery, do a needs analysis and find out what those needs. Now, COVID slowed a lot of that down, right? So no traveling, so I’ve done a few Zoom presentations there, but because I have gotten the confirmation that I’ve done enough work in this area, in the church, you know, I’ve been studying, I’ve been praying, I’ve been meditating, I’ve been silent, I’ve been, you know, the teacher has become the student, and it’s like, OK, so I’ve been seeking, what else do you want me to do? Where do you want me to go from here? And um And so within the last several months, I’ve gotten the uh uh the direction that I want you to continue. I want you to continue in the area that you’re going, right, that, that you’ve, that you started, so I want to use that as a platform to continue building in this area. And so, I am working on something that’s really significant right now and that’s helping people to get back to work. So there’s so many people who have lost their jobs, they’re being laid off. I’ve been working in corporate all my career and so um Uh, I’ve basically sold the human capital management and the recruiting systems that actually help people to um help large companies to hire, and so I work with executives to design strategies to hire hundreds of people per year. And as a result of that, I’ve got these insights that can help people, you know, the average time to get a corporate job is 4 to 5. Months, we can actually help them to get it in 4 to 5 weeks. So it saves them thousands and thousands of dollars in lost income. And, you know, I remember being out of work, Michelle. I remember the stress of having to take care of a family and, you know, not being able to pay the mortgage and getting close to foreclosure and all the stress that comes along with that. And it’s like, You know, I don’t want anybody to have to deal with that. So we can just take care of people at work. So, uh, we’ve designed an online course and some help resources for them to be able to get back to work in a very short period of time, and, you know, in the right job too, not just any job, but the right jobs. So not only working on that, but also working on A project called the, um, uh, I’m sorry, also still doing corporate presentations and presentations for any organization that needs it. Again, we customize that uh uh for them, but there’s also a project that I am, um, you know, it’s been bugging me for the longest time and so I am starting to work on that a bit and had to pause because of the whole COVID thing. Uh, but picking that up again, and it’s called the color line, and the color line shows how The color line started in the US. So a lot of people are trying to deal with racism right now, and they’re trying to deal with it from a race standpoint. Now, you remember my words on Blumenbach. Well, Blumenbach created the whole concept of race, so race is not real. And so, there’s a deeper issue there. And so as we go through the color line, and I can actually show people from the founding of our country, from the founding of our country, exactly what happened, how it happened, the laws. That were put in place and show them sequentially the individuals responsible, then they can actually understand what racism really is and how it gets there and how we address it. It’s the only way to wipe it out, because right now, they’re trying to solve a broken leg by treating a headache. They’re two completely different things. And so if I can get them to focus on the actual headache through this project, then I think it’ll make the most significant progress that we’ve had in race relations uh in our history. And so that is the project that I’m going to be working on. And, uh, building a Patreon for to help so many people have wanted to support and donate, but I wouldn’t allow them to donate. It’s like, no, I don’t need your money. I can do this myself. I don’t want anybody ever saying that they made Marvin rich. Marvin’s rich because he works hard and he has a nice career. Uh, but this Patreon is going to give people the, the opportunity to contribute to the project, to the color line, cause we all need to have some investment in that together, but, uh, there’s where we are right now, helping people get the right job right now, get back to work, help to feed your family. Families put a little more joy into the world and also the um uh the Colline project while still doing custom projects for uh corporations, individual, uh, groups and everything else. So hopefully I answered your question there and I’ll provide links for you.

[1:39:57] Michelle: Yeah, that will be great. I’ll linked below. This is just what, what good work you’re doing. It’s beautiful. OK, so I do want to ask a couple of tricky questions. Um, so, so I guess a three part question. I’ll throw it all out at once and you can answer it as you see fit. So one, the essays, the race and the priesthood was, um, I know that it has been said by many people, it’s left kind of ambiguous so you can interpret it either way, you know, it doesn’t come out and clear clearly say that the priesthood ban was, was of racism, not of God, right? But, um, and then. But then there was the statement made by, I believe the first presidency condemning racism. Which I have a lot of feelings about that, you know, I can share my feelings too. And then, and then more recently though, Deseret Book just published a book explicitly saying nope, racist the race, the priesthood ban absolutely racist period. didn’t start with Joseph, started in this era. This is how we can trace it back. So, so we have made that progress, but those are kind of. I just want to know your feelings on where we are now and the steps that are being taken or not taken are.

[1:41:16] Marvin Perkins: Yeah, you know, something, it’s, it’s interesting because, you know, my mindset is to To, to realize that everybody’s at a different place and their journey is individual. And we just, we, we can’t be in the mindset of forcing everybody to be in the same place, right? You know, just to allow her to have her journey, her experience, him to have his journey and his experience and so, um, I think the bigger question is what are we doing with the things that we feel passionate about. I mean because it’s so easy. I mean, it was, it was one time I was uh doing a Uh, doing a, um, uh, a fireside and, uh, you know, I asked somebody to come up and, you know, sing a few bars of Amazing Grace of the Lord’s prayer. And um they refused to do it. And I knew they refused to do it because they can’t sing. OK. And, and, but it was just an example, right? And, you know, being a singer, I just, you know, um, you know, after she refused and refused and refused, you know, I just started singing it myself and I said, you see how much easier it was to do something myself than to try to get somebody else to do it, that maybe had some motivation for not doing it or some desire not to do it. And so, uh, I applaud uh Paul and Darius and, you know, Tammu and Zandra and all of those people out there um who are doing such a beautiful job because all of our efforts complement each other, but the beauty of it. Is that Our efforts benefit us most. They benefit us more than they benefit anyone else. And so, I’m not as concerned about where we are as a church as I am, where we are individually. Does each individual within this organization realize that what is available to them when they stand up and follow their individual passions, because I, I believe this is testing ground and so if it’s perfect, there’s no test. So the imperfections, I believe give us the greatest opportunities to actually grow and to apply ourselves and to hear a calling and to accept that calling, um, and, uh, and I’m talking about church calling, I’m talking about a calling from above, one that’s calling from inside, uh, and do something about it. So, um, yeah, I, I love every work that’s out there. I love everybody who’s standing up and doing something. And when I see, um, you know, uh, those new works, I applaud the people who took the time and effort to put them together because I know it’s not easy.

[1:44:17] Michelle: OK, what a beautiful answer to that question. That’s, that’s really profound to just, it is, it’s all, it’s about each of us individually. So we don’t have to change what the church leaders do. We also don’t need to be held back by what the church leaders do or don’t do. And so, um, is there, so I wanted, there was one more thing I wanted to talk about if we have time we do we do, OK, OK, before that, is there anything that you that we haven’t covered that you would like to add to the discussion that

[1:44:49] Marvin Perkins: Uh, I’m just here to support you.

[1:44:51] Michelle: OK, all right. Um, well, I, I think I heard you just mention something about so I think that Jacob too is one of the most, if not the most um twisted out of context scriptures in the Mormon canon, specifically verse 30. But there’s another one that I heard you mention, and I would love to have you break it down for us a little bit because I’ve wanted to do an episode on it and I heard you bring it up and it is Doctrine and Covenant section one. I think that this is. This is so these here’s what happens when we misinterpret scripture, we not only believe false things, but we miss some of the true things that God is trying to tell us that are really important and really matter, and I think that’s the case in Doctor Covenant section one as well,

[1:45:42] Marvin Perkins: like the problem that we have there, Michelle. Is that when we decide our truth in advance and then we try to get everything to match up to that truth. What if we did the opposite? What if we just sought out truth or whatever it was and it, it really didn’t matter, you know, and we have to be willing to. We have to be willing to let something go in order to find truth. We can’t be so married to anything more so than we are married to truth. So I’m sorry, go ahead.

[1:46:17] Michelle: I, oh, I love that. That might be part of what a broken heart and a contrite spirit is, is saying, I don’t, I’m letting go of all of my certainties and coming to you, God, with an open heart, with a broken heart saying, show me, show me your way, and I think that’s profound. So, OK, so are you there, Doc and Covenant section one, anyone else who wants to join us? So let’s go first to, to the scripture, right? Whether by my own, which, which one is it? um. I should have read this all before. Verse 38, verse 38 is the offending one like Doctor the Covenants 1:38 is to follow the prophets what Jacob 2:30 is to polygamy, right? So I’m gonna read this one. What I, the Lord have spoken. I have spoken and I excuse not myself. And though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by my own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. Done. The prophet cannot lead us astray. Follow the prophet, right? That’s all that we read. So, OK.

[1:47:24] Marvin Perkins: Right. No, no, not what that means. First of all, let’s go with. OK, there’s so much here, there’s so much here. So number one, the statement that most people are talking about the the Lord would not allow the prophet of the church astray, uh, so most of them are not thinking about the origin when that was given. They’re thinking about when it was given relative to polygamy. And what was interesting about that, if you read the essays on polygamy. The leaders were actually leading you astray. They weren’t telling you the truth about polygamy at that time. So you’re using a statement where they were being dishonest and not telling you the truth, and you’re using that a statement to be the foundation of your truth. It’s like, guys, they were lying to you at the time when they said that.

[1:48:13] Michelle: Oh, the tangled web we weave, right?

[1:48:15] Marvin Perkins: Exactly, use any other statement, but don’t use that one because they were lying to you in that statement, all right? And I know lying is a harsh word, but that’s the reality of what was going on.

[1:48:26] Michelle: Lying for the Lord.

[1:48:28] Marvin Perkins: OK that’s, that’s number 1.2, I don’t like to start there. I like to start up a little higher.

[1:48:37] Michelle: Put it in context. Is that what you’re saying? We should actually read the scriptures in context. What a novel idea. Exactly.

[1:48:44] Marvin Perkins: I can’t just take that little piece and take it out. There’s so much in there. There’s so much in there about priesthood, about everything. So I like to start a little higher, um, so,

[1:48:56] Michelle: so let’s, let’s point this out right now that this is his clo this is God’s closing statement to this revelation, right? So the Lord is saying what I have spoken, I have spoken, meaning everything I just spoke in this revelation, the preceding 37 verses, let’s OK.

[1:49:13] Marvin Perkins: And that really is the key, and that’s what I tell people all the time. It’s like, He’s not saying everything, he’s talking about the things that he was just talking about there. Those things, you know, just say, let’s just press this and say there are 12 commandments, just for example, given in this passage. With those 12 commandments, these are the things I’ve spoken and these are true, whether, uh, whether, whether you just read this or my servants are saying these things that uh these 12 things that we’re talking about, that’s what we’re talking about. We’re not talking about everything because if that were the case, that would contradict the other scriptures that say that’s not the case. So, so, so, yeah, I, I.

[1:49:55] Michelle: So we have a whole collection of prophecies, commandments, and instructions given in this revelation that God is saying, hey, what I just said, pay attention to it, right?

[1:50:09] Marvin Perkins: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

[1:50:13] Michelle: We’ll have to do a bigger breakdown. Go ahead, yeah, go ahead.

[1:50:17] Marvin Perkins: See, my thing though is that I want people to get out of the habit of trying to take a passage out of context and build a build a case on it. You can’t do that. You know, you just, you just can’t do that. I mean, you, you gotta look at, you gotta know all of the scriptures and at least all of that whole passage right there. So, um, yes, there’s so much in here.

[1:50:43] Michelle: Yep, anyone who wants to, and maybe I’ll do another full episode on it, but anyone who wants to go through and break down like verse 7, verse 14, here’s verse 19. The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones that man shall not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh. Read that, then say what I, the Lord, have spoken, I have spoken, meaning this is going to happen no matter what,

[1:51:08] Marvin Perkins: right? But, but yes, and here’s another passage to talk about don’t trust in flesh. Prophets are flesh.

[1:51:15] Michelle: Right,

[1:51:16] Marvin Perkins: don’t, don’t put your trust in flesh. Go ahead. I’m sorry, go ahead.

[1:51:19] Michelle: No, no, no, you go ahead. That’s right,

[1:51:22] Marvin Perkins: but it goes, but it goes on in verse 20 so and so the first thing that I ask him are what are the weak things of the world. Who are the weak that’s gonna come by and, and break down? Is it the Michelle’s and the Marvins of the world that you think have no authority or power? Are we gonna bring some knowledge to you that, you know, that breaks down those long held, uh, beliefs that you’ve had? Who, who are the weak?

[1:51:48] Michelle: The Samuel the Lamanite on the wall with absolutely no authority, who was from the wrong group because he was a Lamanite. He’s the only prophet in the Book of Mormon referred to by his no one’s called so and so the Nephite, right? Anyway. You, you’re right, and it goes on, but that every man might speak in the name of God that every man might speak in the name of God, the Lord, even the Savior of the world. That faith might also increase in the earth, that my everlasting covenant might be established. If you really read this with a critical eye, with an open heart, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, you will, you will learn so much. I’m, I’m speaking to

[1:52:32] Marvin Perkins: the collective you, yeah. Let’s not, let’s not pass this by too in verse 20, uh, verse 20 the word speak is footnoted. And footnotes to authority. Yes, it’s footnoted to authority and so it said that every man might have the authority to speak in the name of God and what do we consider the authority to speak in the name of God, priesthood. So that just matches all the rest of the scriptures here in the doctrine of covenants directly say that the priesthood was supposed to go to all.

[1:53:02] Michelle: Isn’t that fascinating? And see, yeah, I love that and I make the connection in my episode on Emma about um Joseph’s revelation to Emma directly overturned the awful New Testament teachings about women being silent because Emma was actively called, she was ordained to expound and exhort scripture. To expound scripture and exhort the church and so the doctrine of like if we really come to it without, I think it’s easy to either say, OK, here’s the standard LDS narrative. I’m coming to it with that, so I’m only going to notice anything that was in the manual because it felt, you know, it made this false case or we can go Joseph Smith. a dirty pedophile blah blah blah whatever and then come to it and and ignore all of the details and say it’s all bad, right? And then just come to a proof texting it to only find those negative things. The work you’re doing to actually get in and say what does this actually say with an open heart is profound. That’s where I think the real that’s the, that’s the mining for the real gold, right? Where you find

[1:54:09] Marvin Perkins: truth. Yeah, it is indeed. Now, are you familiar with the other scriptures within the doctrine and covenants that say the priesthood was supposed to go at all?

[1:54:19] Michelle: Oh yeah, yeah, you go ahead though, go give us some

[1:54:22] Marvin Perkins: of

[1:54:23] Michelle: it.

[1:54:24] Marvin Perkins: No, we, we’ve got a whole scripture reference guide that we could just give them to them, but they’re, you know, there, there’s so many of them like in uh section 4, verse 5. I’ll just go through some of my favorites, you know, and faith, hope, and charity and love with an eye single to the glory of God qualify him for the work, you know, and then you follow that footnote on qualify and you know, it gives you uh priesthood qualifying for the priesthood and so it gives you the qualification for priesthood. Faith, hope, charity, love. With an eye single to the glory of God, qualify him for the work and it’s not gender specific either and so it it gives you those qualifications, um, and I’ll jump to. One of my favorites cause there’s so many of them here. Uh, but this one is like the 9th and 10th time that the Lord has said. Listen, you’re asking. I’m telling you, it’s for everybody, you know, like I’ve already told you. And so this is in section 36 uh verses 45 and 8, and it says, uh, and, and now this calling and commandment. And so I searched the whole scriptures, Michelle. This is the only place I’ve seen many things called a calling, many things called a commandment, but I have only found this one being called both a calling and a commandment. And it says now this calling commandment give I unto you concerning all men. That as many as shall come before my servants Sydney Rignman and Joseph Smith Junior, embracing this calling and commandment, shall be ordained and sent forth to preach the everlasting gospel among the nations. And, and verse 7, and this commandment shall be given unto the elders, the missionaries that go out of my church, that every man which will embrace it with a singleness of heart may be ordained and sent forth even as I’ve spoken, even as I’ve already told you. And so At least 12 direct commands to give priesthood to all in the doctrine and covenant. Now, what’s really interesting about this. Is that if this was written by man, we would have clearly seen the influence of man in there because we see that in the discourse that Brigham Young was given to the Utah legislature on February 5, 1852, where you can’t find God in that. You can’t find the love of God in that. You see the discrimination, you see all of that, but here when you read the scriptures, you don’t find any of that in there. And so the beauty of man’s influence, not in this section on priesthood is pretty clear that they didn’t write it. It was inspired writing.

[1:57:18] Michelle: Uh, OK, I love that you made that distinction. God always wants to unify. God wants to express the inclusiveness, the love that God has for all of us, and the love that God desires for us to have one another. There are other sources, forces, either the adversary or us as our lower selves that want to divide, that want to separate, that want to rank order, that want to. You know, and, and so the call if we want to be of God is to listen to that uncomfortable feeling of a message of separation that you’re telling somebody or you know, and instead go no, God, God said everyone, God wants to unify. God wants to find ways and, and we can always go to God and say because there’s also the time, you know, there is Samuel the Lamanite preaching on the wall saying, hey, you’re doing it wrong, you know, there is the calling. That people have, so it’s not anything goes, but it is a message of unity, love, inclusion, and binding and bonding.

[1:58:22] Marvin Perkins: That’s, that, that’s it. And, and one of the things that I’ve come to learn is that we’ve got, uh, two forces on this earth and that are those who have a propensity to service to self and those who have a propensity for service to others. And of these two groups, we’re all in different stages of development. So you’ve got different levels and development of self-esteem in both of those two groups. There’s where your conflict comes in, there’s where your opportunity is created. And so these two forces, it’s necessary to have the service of self people um because of service to other people, we, it gives us some conflict and it’s like if everything was easy, we’d just be relaxed and everything’s good, we wouldn’t be pursuing our passions, doing the work that you and I are doing if it weren’t for the service of self people. So we have to understand the divinity in their role as well as the divinity in ours, and we both are here to help each other and so um So yeah, if we just understood that, I think people would be less alarmed by people who are different than we are, um, and more aware of the opportunities that exist for each of us.

[1:59:37] Michelle: Oh, that’s beautiful. I love that and I also love your message of. That it’s not about what we accomplish, it’s about who we become in our efforts to build the kingdom of God, right? We build the kingdom of God within in our efforts to lift all of those around us to make things better around us. what really matters is what happens within us. That’s a that’s a profoundly important message and. And I do want to because I’ve been a little bit hard on the leadership maybe in this discussion and my state president always points out in all patience and faith and I think that’s beautiful that we support our leaders and all patience and faith and I think that’s what you’ve represented as saying, ah, let’s worry about ourselves, let’s work inside rather than worrying too much about what any other other person outside of ourselves is doing.

[2:00:23] Marvin Perkins: Yeah, indeed, but also keep in mind that um, uh, I look at leaders the way I look at everybody. I look at everybody the same, so the leaders don’t get any special treatment. Everybody gets special treatment. Everybody gets special treatment and so if everybody’s getting special treatment, nobody’s getting different differentiated treatment.

[2:00:43] Michelle: We are all alike unto God. We are all infinitely loved. That’s it. That’s it.

[2:00:50] Marvin Perkins: So thank you for having me.

[2:00:52] Michelle: Marvin, this has been wonderful. Is there anything you wanna add as we’re wrapping up? I, I can’t thank you enough for coming on. I think that what you have to share is beautiful.

[2:01:02] Marvin Perkins: Yeah, I’ll probably think of several things after we disconnect, but right now, but right now it’s just really nice to spend this time with you. I love the work that you’re doing. Keep it up and, uh, uh, as promised, I’ll send you a couple of links where people can access uh the uh help resources we talked about.

[2:01:20] Michelle: That will be great. Thank you so much for everything you have done and continue to do so I will talk to you again later. Thanks.

[2:01:26] Marvin Perkins: Thank you. Bye now.

[2:01:29] Michelle: I hope that you found that conversation as insightful and important as I did. Again, all of Marvin’s, well, several of Marvin’s, um, videos and conversations and websites and resources will be linked below in the description. So please take some time to look into those and see what more um what more study can be done on these important topics. I’m so thankful for the opportunity to bring the these important conversations to a broader audience. So thank you so much for joining us and I will see you next time.