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In this great conversation Jacqueline shares her incredibly personal journey with betrayal trauma and her profound realization that God would never design or want this for God’s daughters, including Emma.
Jacqueline’s wisdom and insight comes through profoundly as she shares her story, including her struggles with the church and her journey of healing herself and her marriage. It helped me understand on a completely different level the horror of the standard narrative regarding Emma, and God.
Transcript
[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 Problems where we explore the scriptural and theological case for plural marriage. This is an interesting episode. I have met a fabulous woman who has agreed to come and talk to me about her incredibly unique perspective that I hope will give us additional insight into the actual reality, the experience of polygamy. So thank you for being here as I talk to Jacqueline Barlow Smith. Welcome everybody to this episode of 132 Problems. I am so excited to introduce you to my new friend, Jacqueline Barlow Smith. And, um, I, I want to explain a little bit about why Jacqueline is here. She has a really interesting story, both her heritage and her own life experience. I, um, she and I have been talking quite a bit. We, we talked a little while ago and then we reached out to each other again this last several weeks. And She has so much insight and experience and wisdom that I just wanted all of, all of you guys to be able to hear as well. I also think that it’s just a fascinating personal story to share. So welcome, Jacqueline. Thank you so much for being here.
[01:21] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: Thanks for having me, Michelle. It’s good to be here too.
[01:24] Michelle: And to start, would you mind just telling us a little bit about yourself, your You’re growing up and your heritage. I recognize that you’re a Barlow. That that’s great.
[01:36] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: And we actually found out that you and I are related through that line as well. So, um, my father was born into a polygamist family in Utah and was raised like that. He had, um, his mom and then 3, they called them ants. So there were 3 other aunts in his house, but those were the other wives, I guess the sister wives, and he met my mom when he was 17, and my mom was only 15, and they got married. So they got married right away. My mom was a member of the church, although not active, a member of the LDS Church, although not active, and They got married and had a few kids, and then the pressure began to mount for my dad to take a second wife. And my dad was getting a lot of pressure, and he went, uh, to my mom and said, you know, I, I think I should consider taking a second wife. And she said, that’s fine, but you’ll still only have one because I’ll leave. And then my dad was like, wait, you would leave? And it shocked him. And so he really did some research hard. And he really looked at what he had been taught all his life and what he believed all his life. And he ended up joining the LDS Church and, um, denouncing polygamy and, um, became a faithful member, and I was sealed to him when I was about 4, and I actually remember it. So that was kind of fun. But we grew up, I grew up, my, my younger years were in Florida. So a lot of people would call that the mission field. I grew up in, uh, St. Petersburg, Florida, and that’s where I learned the gospel in, in my life. And it it makes me have a little bit of a different viewpoint than a lot of people from Utah, um, in some respects. But I grew up, then I, we moved back to Utah. I Went to high school in Sandy and graduated a long, long, long time ago, and um we’re actually going to have our 40 year reunion this year, so that there you go, that’s my age, um. I ended up getting married and divorced rather quickly, but I did have a son, and then when I um married my husband that I married to now, um, we got married and had 4 more kids and um we were still in the temple and um. That’s just kind of some background. I homeschooled my kids. I worked with my husband in his plumbing company. We just have had so many fun adventures. We’ve, we’ve traveled a lot. We’ve gone to lots of different places in the world. Um, I’ve even run for Congress. So I’ve had just quite an adventurous life.
[04:21] Michelle: OK, that’s so great. So I have so many questions to ask first. Um, do you want to talk about, have you been a life coach, and are you still doing that?
[04:29] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: Um, I’m not doing that anymore. I did that for a while. Um, I worked for a company in Utah County for some time, and I did a lot of, um, motivational speaking on stage, and that was It was a ton of fun. I, I met amazing people. I got to know some, you know, really good friends. And I know the Lord absolutely led me there because I didn’t know it at the time, but what I was about to experience was going to turn my life upside down and all of the skills and lessons that I learned in that life coaching process, I needed myself.
[05:03] Michelle: Oh, OK. That’s, that’s amazing. So, I have questions. So maybe I missed it. I was a little distracted with the technology during your introduction. So if I missed it, forgive me. But the pressure that was coming on your dad to take a second wife. So your mom was a non-active member of the church. Did she know she was marrying into, like, was your dad an active member in whatever polygamist church? Was the pressure coming from his family, from a church? Did she? Was that part of the The bargain that he had talked to her about before they got married. Can you go into that a little bit?
[05:35] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: So, no, there was absolutely no discussion of the second wife when they got married. She knew he was she was marrying into a polygamist family, but, um, it was never even discussed with her that that would be an option. And um they, it was not even on the table ever. But the pressure was coming from his family. His family was very, and mostly his father. His father was, um, had a pretty strong hand, and, um, I mean, his father had gone to jail for polygamy in his day. They actually threw them in jail back then, um, in Utah, and so he had spent some time in jail. Uh, he was, you know, devoted to this lifestyle. Um, he had 4 wives, one could never have children, but 3 of his wives had children. So my dad is one of 35 children, and, um, from his mom, he’s one of 13. So there’s a lot of children. Um, I do want to tell this story though. My dad had some hard feelings toward the whole polygamist lifestyle, even as a child because My dad tells told a story. He’s passed now, but he told a story that one Christmas there was a sub for Santa, and he was so excited because he got a bicycle for Christmas, and he went downstairs and opened it up and he started riding it around and he was so excited. And a little while later, his dad came down and said, oh, this is on the wrong side of the house. Took it from him and gave it to another wife’s children on the other side of the house. And he remembers how devastating that was as a little boy to be given something and be so excited and then have it just taken from you. Like, it kind of breaks my heart a little bit to even talk about it, but my dad, my dad had a very, very loving mother. But he did not love his dad the same way, and he had a lot of resentment toward his dad for a long time, but he doesn’t, he didn’t, by the time my dad passed, he didn’t have any resentment towards his father, but For a long time, he did have a lot of resentment.
[07:49] Michelle: Oh, I can only imagine. Oh my gosh, that reminds me of, I, I guess, like I’m thinking of the story of Jacob when they’re being attacked and he’s setting his family up, and he puts Rachel and her son in the back most protected place and all of the other sons out where they can be killed first. It’s kind of that same like, oh, you can see how you’re valued. I, I cannot imagine a father being so in. Sensitive to not realize what that would do to a child. You, you like, that’s just a harsh, harsh story. Thank you
[08:22] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: for sharing, and there’s, and there’s a lot of stories like that. I mean, uh, they lived in abject poverty. My dad grew up in a dugout in Short Creek, and, um, he was 7 years old and his mother had given him a piece of bread, and she said, um, wouldn’t it be nice to just have some honey for this bread? And my dad said, what’s honey? I mean he was 7. He had had nothing for so long, um, just, just really lived without a lot for a lot of years.
[08:56] Michelle: Where is he in the 35?
[08:59] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: I don’t even know. Um, I mean, I could go get my Israel Barlow book and Mormon Moore’s book that I have on the shelf and figure it out because we all have these numbers that this the Israel Barlow um foundation created and and it’s, it’s kind of cool because it tells you exactly from Israel Barlow which wife you come from, and then how it goes down the line and like your number and it’s this big long number. Um, and so I’m not even sure. I know he’s one of the older, the older boys in his family. Most of his family’s passed on. I think he has 3 or 4 brothers left, is all, and, and 1 and 1 sister.
[09:43] Michelle: And do you know, um, his mother, your grandmother, was she a favored wife, a younger wife, and older, do you know anything of the dynamics of that?
[09:52] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: Um, as far as I know, she wasn’t the favorite wife, but she was probably one of the best women you could ever imagine with just one of the most kind and loving hearts in the world. Um, my dad had so much respect for her. And she was just a good person. She’s, I believe, what made my dad who he is.
[10:16] Michelle: Uh, that’s That I love. I just love how like. Like the most gorgeous blooms can come from the least fertile soil, you know, like, cause she was raising those 13 children in that kind of poverty without a husband’s support. And, and, you know, she was powerless to protect your dad when the bicycle was taken away, or any number of other times. And it is like Heartbreaking.
[10:42] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: So the old, the old George Q. Cannon House that’s down on California Avenue in Utah, that is the home that my dad grew up in, um, once they finally had money and had enough to sustain their families, and they were brought up from Short Creek. And that’s still owned by my uncle today. And it’s a beautiful home.
[11:02] Michelle: OK, so, so he wasn’t in poverty his whole life.
[11:05] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: No, but he, well, when he left at 17, when you’re feeding 35 children, it’s, it’s difficult. I mean they gardened and, you know, planted and they, they have, they had more once they all got up to Utah, up to Salt Lake, than they had when they were down in at Short Creek or I don’t even know what the name is now, Colorado City, um. They didn’t have hardly anything when they lived down there, but you gotta remember my dad was born in 1932. So this was, you know, right during the end of the Great Depression and, you know, a lot of families were living in poverty.
[11:41] Michelle: OK. Do you know if they faced when they moved to Salt Lake if they faced persecution from
[11:48] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: Well, they obviously had to because my grandfather went to jail, so they did face persecution.
[11:52] Michelle: Oh, I thought that was when they were still in short was that in Salt Lake?
[11:56] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: That was in Salt Lake.
[11:57] Michelle: Oh, OK. OK. So was your dad taught to keep everything secret, to not,
[12:04] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: yeah, not really talk about it much. I mean, my dad had one pair of overalls. He wore the same pair every single day his life when he went to school and, you know, you just kind of kept to yourself and And he was taught things like, you know, people that smoke cigarettes are evil and black people are evil. I mean, he was taught those things as a child and um it was interesting to watch my dad’s heart change and to have his circumstances change so drastically over the years because by the time I grew up, my dad had a lot of wealth, and he was a very, very wealthy man and had completely changed his stars, so to speak.
[12:42] Michelle: OK, OK. That’ll be interesting to hear more about. Thanks for letting us dig into this a little. So, your mom knew she was marrying into polygamy, but, uh, there was no chance that she was going to be a polygamist wife. Do you know how how that affected your dad? Like, did he have a crisis of faith? Did he?
[13:00] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: Well, it helps him to look deeper at, at everything, and he said, one of the hardest things to do was unlearn something you learned from somebody you love. So that’s a hard thing, and he, I remember him telling me that, and, and he said I had to unlearn the Joseph Smith and the church that I had learned from my parents, and I had to learn a new Joseph Smith and a new church from the missionaries. And he said, and that was that was interesting because their whole religion is based around the doctrine of polygamy, the entire religion. And he said, in fact, so much so that it was rare they actually spoke about Jesus Christ. They talked more about polygamy and this law of the of polygamous relationships than they even spoke about Christ and and his sacrifice.
[13:56] Michelle: That’s so interesting. I think we definitely hear that echoed in polygamist groups today and in the Journal of Discourses. I’m, I, I’m guessing it’s gotten more extreme over the decades, but it, even there, it’s, it’s very much the doctrine, right? Like if you’re holding on to polygamy, it is the doctrine. That’s So,
[14:14] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: and this is kind of a funny story, but I live in Bluffdale now, and I was looking at moving. I was living in a house that I’d renovated, and I was looking for another house, but I kind of wanted to stay in this area because I have a business that I’m running here in Bluffdale, and there are a lot of Barlows in Bluffdale, like a ton, and I knew that. Um, but I didn’t realize they were my, they’re like, that’s my uncle and all of my cousins, like my uncles and cousins. They all live here and they’re super sweet people and they’ve they’ve been really good to me and kind, but I remember looking at a house one time and I’m walking through the house and I’m like, I recognize that picture, and it was a picture of my grandfather and and I was like, well, it’s just cause it’s my My cousin’s house and and I didn’t realize it, and I was just walking through to buy it, and he was selling it and I and I didn’t know it was one of my relatives that I was walking through their house. It was kind of.
[15:02] Michelle: Oh, that’s amazing. Were they currently polygamists, do you know? Like they’re OK, cause a lot of barlows are still,
[15:10] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: they still are they still are, yeah. Mhm. My dad and a few of his brothers and um one sister got out.
[15:20] Michelle: OK, so the majority of all of those kids stayed so still huge numbers of people living
[15:26] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: polygamy. Huge. Like I think I last count I had 401st cousins and I know it’s way, way higher than that now.
[15:35] Michelle: Wow. Wow. And that’s just one family. Who, who’s your grandfather? Is your grandfather, your
[15:41] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: grandfather, grandfather is Ianthus. OK, Winfred Barlow, and then his father was an Israel Barlow, but then Israel Barlow that is the the main one that people talk about, he’s the one who has the statue at this is the place State Park, and there’s also that same statue in, um, I even have a miniature of it at my house, um. That same statues in Navvo, Kitty corner from the Navo Temple, and the the church allowed that to be put up, but they would only allow one wife on the statue, and then down the sides of the statue are the other three with their kids’ names.
[16:22] Michelle: Oh, it’s just so complicated cause on the one hand, we’re racing the women. In order to kind of Hide our history. Yeah, it’s just, it’s just difficult. Like, because I hate to hear those things and being erased, but I also hate to have polygamy on display as if we continue to proclaim it, you know, so.
[16:47] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: It’s, it’s interesting, it’s an interesting thing. I mean, my, my grandfather has been sealed to my grandmother after his death, but the church, um, like if you go on to his like If you go on and look at the records, they’re they’re hidden. Oh, because they, they don’t want. They don’t want it known that this acting polygamist after the manifesto has now been sealed to his wife.
[17:17] Michelle: OK. I had never thought of that. That is such an interesting question. So does the church allow work done for the dead for polygamists? Like in your
[17:28] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: situation to have a marriage certificate. So if you don’t have a marriage certificate, no, they will not.
[17:33] Michelle: So
[17:33] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: they,
[17:34] Michelle: they won’t allow ceilings for polygamist wives because there can only be one marriage certificate.
[17:39] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: But my grandmother had one and she OK, I got work done.
[17:44] Michelle: And I’m, I’m so wondering where that, like, we certainly don’t need marriage certificates to do ceilings for, you know, the polygamists back before the church disavowed it. So that’s a really an interesting double standard that Yeah.
[18:00] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: OK. It’s also because he was polygamist at a time when it wasn’t legal and the church had renounced it and it was all done. you know, the, the church had renounced it fully and um It was, it was still being practiced like it is today. I mean, it’s still being practiced today, so.
[18:20] Michelle: Right. Yeah. And that’s just such a fuzzy line, that whole thing of when the church actually renounced it for real, you know, like so. So, OK, that’s good to know that. So you have to have a marriage certificate so you can’t live polygamously and then have your temple work done after your death. Because you don’t have a marriage certificates. So that’s the church’s standard now. So we’re, oh, that’s just, again, tricky. It just introduces so many problems. OK. So moving forward, so you were not raised to believe in polygamy. Like your dad had already
[18:50] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: I was raised the way most of us were, which is OK. It which is we’re not doing it, but eventually we will, and it’s a celestial law, so get, so, you know, with phrase with that.
[19:06] Michelle: OK, so that’s, I should have asked that more clearly. I guess I assumed your dad went to believing polygamy was wrong, but he just went to believing. No, we’re not supposed to do it right now. OK, so he went to the standard LDS narrative,
[19:20] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: right? Well, and I, I think that’s because that’s the LDS narrative still.
[19:26] Michelle: OK, OK, so that’s interesting. So you were raised with that. So, OK, tell us the next thing we should know about.
[19:34] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: So. This is a really hard thing to share, and I really need to be careful about how I share this. So I’m gonna ask your audience to please be respectful of what I’m about to tell and understand that um There there’s a lot of, uh, a lot of information I’m gonna share that. Could be used very hurtfully, and I, I just want people to be respectful, um, of me and my husband.
[20:03] Michelle: Yes. And let me say, like, like always the approach is compassion, not judgment. I’m so thankful that Jacqueline is willing to come on and share. I’m so thankful that her husband gave permission, because these are really sensitive things we’re going to talk about. And I know that you’ve told me your story, um, more than once, and I feel nothing but profound love and Admiration and just like, oh this is important these, these, these things need to be shared. So now we’ve built it up enough, but yes, please hear this with an open heart and open mind and this is a good, always our lives should be lived in a place of compassion, not judgment, right? So this is a good opportunity to practice maybe. If if you’re feeling it, I, I don’t want you to feel sensitive and vulnerable, of course you are, but this is, this is,
[20:46] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: this
[20:47] Michelle: is
[20:47] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: very
[20:47] Michelle: sensitive
[20:48] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: and I’m being very, very vulnerable. People that know us know this has happened in our lives, um, but now everybody’s gonna know. So, um. Who, so there was a time in my husband’s life where depression was raining very heavily on him, and it was to the point that I really didn’t know. If I would come home and if he would be alive. Like I was so concerned about his mental health. Um, he, he did what he could to, you know, try to stay positive and try to stay happy, but I just noticed a lot of swings in his behavior. Um, one time he went out of town for a little while and he was pretty angry at God right then, angry because of his situation, how he felt mentally and um. I needed something you shouldn’t have done. And he came forward immediately and told me, and he went through 10 months with the state president and eventually had a court, uh, an LDS court. Are you OK
[21:56] Michelle: to share what he did? I think it’s important.
[22:00] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: Well, it gets, it gets, it’s kind of interesting because, um, so he, he met someone who flattered him and, and he ended up sleeping with her. Um, and he came forward to me when he came home, it only happened once, came forward and um. And he went 10 months meeting with the state president, working on, working on himself and working on, you know, where he was at. He, he
[22:27] Michelle: just had the process. Yeah,
[22:29] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: right. And, and I felt really, I felt really concerned about the whole thing because I knew how vulnerable my husband was and how, you know, how his mental health was. And, um, I fasted the day of his court date and I got on my knees before the, the appointment. And The when when I hear the Lord, he comes in into my mind and like little phrases. So I got the phrase, write a letter, they’re not gonna let you in. And I was like, Why would they not let me in? I’m his wife. This, I’m the one who’s been the most hurt by this. I surely they would let me in. But I, I did exactly what I was told. I got up and I typed up a letter to the state presidency and to the council, and then I went back to my knees. And then right after that I got, they’re going to excommunicate him. And I was like, wait, they or you? Because I was really I was really trying to figure out if that was their will or God’s will. And so I wasn’t really getting any answers and I just said, well, if it’s thy will just give me peace and help me move forward. Um, we got to the appointment. They never invited me.
[23:49] Michelle: This, this was
[23:50] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: his, yeah, yeah, his actual, we’re gonna decide what to do with you now after 10 months of him just meeting with the state president.
[24:00] Michelle: Do you know why it took so long?
[24:02] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: I have no idea. Like, I Could not tell you. And we were working on our marriage and on our trust and everything was going fantastic. I mean, it really was. It was going fantastic. I thought.
[24:12] Michelle: That’s what’s so strange. It seems like excommunicate him immediately and then do the 10 months of meeting to build back up, you know, it, it seems like you were doing all of this building and then it, it, it’s, it’s very odd. It’s very.
[24:24] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: There was a lot about this that was strange. So, um, Once we got to that meeting, I was never invited in. And so I handed a letter to the state president, and he read it to them. And one of the things that I that I wrote in it was, thou shalt not commit adultery. This is from Doctor Incus 42. Thou shalt not commit adultery, and he that committeth adultery and repenteth not shall be cast out. But he that has committed adultery and repents with all his heart and forsaketh it and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive. I thought for sure. That right there was enough. For everything to be fine.
[25:09] Michelle: Cause you knew your husband was genuinely,
[25:12] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: he felt so bad, felt so bad, um, but he was excommunicated and And I never felt any peace, like, not for one second, to the point that um it didn’t, this is what’s interesting. I didn’t feel like my husband was cut off. I felt like our entire family was cut off. Nobody spoke to us at church, the state president didn’t reach out to see how we were doing. I’m emotionally. On a roller coaster, and yet the, the people, they’re not, they’re they didn’t help anybody. They didn’t help my husband, they didn’t help me. And this isn’t I’m not trying to turn this into a Mormon stories, you know, blame fest, because nobody can blame anybody for my husband’s choices. I mean, he has taken full accountability of that. But this sent him on an absolute spiral, emotionally, that none of us expected. I eventually moved, um, out of that state and moved down into the valley. And I was living up in Summit County, so I moved down to, um, Bluffdale. And while I was living in Bluffdale, my husband took a job in another state. And he was coming back and forth 2 and 3 weeks at a time. And then we,
[26:34] Michelle: can we slow down a little? I want, I don’t want to. I just wanna, can we, I want to delve into a couple of things from that. Last, so you didn’t talk much about the impact that affair had on you.
[26:45] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: And you wanna know why, honestly, and this is the honest truth. I felt like I handled it pretty dang good. Like, I had had a lot of training and a lot of trauma therapy training, and I was like, OK, I, I’m having trauma. I’m going to be OK. And my husband was so good, he brought it to my attention. He told me it was like a lot of disclosure, um. To the point that I actually went and met this woman and felt nothing but love for her, for real. I know that sounds weird, but like, for whatever reason, it felt like the Lord opened the windows of heaven, and he showed me how much he loved my husband. Who was sinning, and this woman who was also sinning, and just showed me how much he loved them both. And that kind of blew my mind actually, a little bit. And I was shocked at how I felt inside about the whole thing. Now, I think I still had some trauma, but it wasn’t super bad.
[27:51] Michelle: OK. And so I wanted to clarify, so you weren’t, you know, I think some people could hear this and kind of think that you would just allow your husband to do anything and not feel like you have the self-worth to, you know, so that wasn’t your situation. You felt deeply blessed and emotionally prepared and spiritually.
[28:09] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: I did. I, I can’t say that it was like this amazing experience, but in all honesty, I felt the Lord’s like lifting the whole entire time. Like it was just like I was carried through the entire process. And up until the point he was excommunicated. When he was excommunicated, it kind of felt like my world fell apart with his, and we both were experiencing a lot, a lot of betrayal. From the church. And, and that’s the only way I can put it. And I realize it’s not the church. It’s just people. They’re just people. Everybody makes mistakes. I’ve forgiven all the people involved.
[28:52] Michelle: Yeah, but it is your experience with the church, and that’s hard. I wish that as a people we were better in general at Suckering at, like, well, I did an episode on our baptismal covenants, right? I’m, I’m actually keeping our unique baptismal covenant. So I think that that is every time I hear one of these stories, I’m always like, Lord, what can I do better? Because it’s hard to know. What to do, but love is never a bad thing, right? If even someone just reached out to you and let, let you know that they loved you and that they cared and asked, how can I help? That would have meant, meant
[29:27] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: the world. Right. I mean, and, and Cleeve and I have, um, you know, some people that we know pretty high up in the church, and we know for a fact that one of the apostles reached out to our state president and asked him to reach out to Cleve, and he never did. So
[29:45] Michelle: because you you’re personal friends with one of the beloved apostles.
[29:48] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: I am well, I like to think so. I don’t know if you’d call me a friend, but my friend.
[29:55] Michelle: You’ve met with him personally and been given blessings and had opportunities that most of us don’t have.
[30:00] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: Absolutely. And in fact, I thought it was interesting because we did go meet him after my husband’s excommunication and talked to him a little bit about it, and he received an apostolic blessing and was, and it felt so much to me like the words I believe the savior would have said. I mean, Everything else just felt like men having opinions and um putting a lot of judgment on things and and being, you know, this, this, this, this judicious judge who’s gonna make sure there’s a punishment provided and the words of this apostle were there is nothing that you can ever do. That will ever take my love and friendship away from you. I will always love you. And I was like, that’s Jesus, that’s the savior, that’s the person I know. And that’s what my husband needed to hear from these other people that he never got. There was no love, and there was no kindness, and there was no, there was no, it just wasn’t there. And so it was very, very hard on my husband when he was excommunicated. So to continue with this story, because it, it so long.
[31:23] Michelle: No, I ask you a couple more questions. I, so, so were you able to set up the appointment with the apostle after your husband’s excommunication? Because what you’re talking about is an apostle meeting with an excommunicated member, right? Uh, like a woman and her excommunicated husband in a private meeting and giving a blessing. I also wanted to ask when the apostle said that, was he speaking on behalf of the Lord in the blessing was, or was he speaking on behalf of himself or both? I just,
[31:50] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: I, I, I feel, I felt like it was both, because he just said, I, he, you know, he didn’t say, you know, the Lord wants you to know. But I mean, he did tell him a bunch of stuff the Lord wanted to know too. But, um, I really felt like it was mostly him, but I felt like it was exactly what the Lord would have said. Mhm.
[32:08] Michelle: And how did that meeting come about?
[32:10] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: My husband texted him and just said, hey, my wife’s having a hard time. He just said, come, just come to the office and we’ll get.
[32:17] Michelle: So your husband is able to text this apostle, this very well loved, well-known apostle personally.
[32:24] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: Yes, in fact, I just texted him over conference. See how he was doing.
[32:29] Michelle: OK. OK. That’s, that’s a really, see, lots of interesting bits and pieces here. So you went from being
[32:36] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: excomm doesn’t make me special. I want you guys to know that doesn’t make me special at all, because it’s it and this is something else that is really cool. So when my husband was active in the church, there was a point when we had a really good friend that needed a blessing, and we reached out to this apostle and asked if he could give him a blessing. And then my husband responded. You know, he said he was pretty busy, you know, told us where he was like he wasn’t even in town or something. And my husband said, you know, I’ve been giving it some thought, and my priesthood is the same, so it doesn’t matter. I can give the blessing just as good. And I, and, and he responded with, that is absolutely true. And I thought that was really, really cool too. So we just have to remember, you know, these men are good men, they’ve been serving most of their lives and um. But they’re still just servants. They’re still just servants of the Lord doing what their calling has been to do.
[33:35] Michelle: I’m so glad you said that. So true. No pedestals, right? There are no pedestals. We really don’t like them. Direct access, I think, is the unique thing, because we do, like it or not, we do have the pedestals, right? And so it’s really fascinating to have, on the one hand, you’re being excommunicated by by the state president while you have an apostle on speed dial. That’s not the situation most people have,
[33:58] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: right? Right.
[33:59] Michelle: OK. All right.
[34:01] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: So yeah, and this, and this man has come to our, to our aid multiple times, and this was just one of them. Um. But after, after that happened, um, My husband’s, um, mental health continued to spiral. Um, he took a job which I think was good for him and the, yeah. So he took a job in another state, which was good for him in a lot of ways because I think he needed to separate himself from kind of everyone and do a lot of soul searching, um. Unfortunately, in that soul searching, he made some more bad decisions. Um, he had another affair. Now, before everybody goes, you’re crazy, you stayed with him, blah blah blah. I just have to tell you this is such an individual decision. If it was me and I was telling one of my kids, I’d be like, go, get out, get it out. Like that’s what that’s what I would do. But when I got on my knees, that is not what I got told and it shocked me. I got on my knees and I said I’m allowed to go now, right? Because this one was all secret, he didn’t come forward, it was, it was found out, it was very different, um. But once, once it was ongoing,
[35:18] Michelle: right, it wasn’t done the
[35:20] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: ongoing thing and it this one, this one. Destroyed me mentally. I think it it really upended my entire universe. Um, but again, I think the Lord has a plan, and when we turn to him, he can take anything in our lives, good or bad, and when we turned to him, he turns it for our good. Like, it really can be a blessing in disguise when we When we go through it. Um, but it was in, it was in that process that I got on my knees and I asked to my Father, cause I said, I can go now. I am free to go, and there will be no problem me leaving this marriage because I’m OK to leave. And it was like as loud as I could possibly hear it in my head. Be patient and love him more. And I’m thinking, what? Really? And so I, I tried to start doing that. I try to start loving him more, and I’m like, I, I think I’m crazy. Well, in the process of all of this, we uncovered that he had A disorder that really needed some medication. So he got on some medication and it’s like I got my husband back.
[36:42] Michelle: A mental health disorder. Yes,
[36:43] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: yeah. Just chemical imbalances that were bigger than he could handle on his own. And we didn’t know this. I mean, my husband’s almost, he was almost 50 by the time he was put on this medication, and And once he was on that, it was like his world evened out, and and he’s he’s completely committed to our family. He’s completely committed to repairing all of this, and he has been Honestly, so, so good to me since all of this has happened, and he, when I do have triggers or things come up, I I couldn’t ask for somebody better because he’ll say things like, I’m sorry, I’ve hurt you, and I can’t take that away from you, but I’m here. But I’m here and like that’s enough. And it’s it’s amazing how much that softens my heart. Um,
[37:38] Michelle: but That’s so beautiful. And I do want to just talk about that answer you received, because I think that is exquisite when it comes from God, right? When it’s told to somebody, like, I want to make that clarification that when it’s told to somebody by a leader, I don’t want anyone hearing this to think, oh, that’s what I can tell someone in a similar situation, right? Like that would be abusive. Right, tell someone that. And, but it’s also, I think, I think at the same time to judge people for saying, I feel like I should stay. I feel inspired to stay. I think that’s also, you know, very inappropriate to say, well, then you’re weak or you’re just a door you’re,
[38:20] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: yeah, a doormat. Mhm. I’ve had people say that. Well, don’t you just feel like a doormat? Um, there are moments when I have, but, but no, I, I mean. It’s amazing to me how the Lord puts people together, because he knows me and he knows my husband, and honestly we’re two of the most stubborn people you could ever meet. And sometimes when we’re just really struggling, Cleve will say to me, Well, here we are. We’ve gone through a lot, but here we are, and we’re still working on it, so that says something. And he’s right, it does. And, and we have gotten closer in the last few years than we have in a long time. And it’s been through a lot of heartache and pain. But I think that the thing that’s amazing about it is we have to remember that our savior’s atonement. It is complete, and his atonement is for everyone. It’s not for the people that are doing small things. It’s for the people that are doing big things wrong and have hard times changing and have addictions or You know, or attractions or whatever it is, the atonement is real and it’s for everyone, and we as a membership need to start being more readily available to the people who are on that fringe feeling like they don’t even deserve to come. My mom used to tell me all the time in Florida. I would say I know, I would ask her about who goes to church and who doesn’t. She says, well, church is for everybody, but if everybody’s sins smelled like cigarettes, we wouldn’t be able to breathe in that chapel. There’s a lot of things people do that we can’t see that are very, very, um. You know, sinful in the eyes of the Lord, but because you can’t see it. And nobody talks about it, somehow people don’t think it’s there.
[40:30] Michelle: But we kind of have a culture of looking as perfect as possible so we can go to church, right? Where really church should be a place to be completely broken. Not, you know, like, so we can be there as a bunch of broken people buoying each other along. That’s kind of the purpose of it to some extent, I think, as well.
[40:50] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: And I realized some of us are more broken than others, but, but that’s just it. If we’re less broken, help them broken and really make them feel loved and valued and and a part of things in a way that’s that’s without judgment. We, we’ve got to stop judging. Um, it was interesting. I I had this little, I was teaching a girls class on pornography to 12 year olds, and I was like, uh, how do I teach that? And I’ve been lucky enough that the Lord just gives me things quickly and I’m able to see it the way he wants it done. And one of the things is guilt. He said there’s actually, in my mind, there’s nothing wrong with guilt. It’s what you do with it afterwards. Do you turn it into humility or humiliation? Do you turn it into hiding and running, or into being numbered among his flock and confessing? Do you turn it in, you know, it all depends which direction you go. Are you following, you know, Satan’s path with guilt, where it’s, it’s laden with shame? Or, or do you follow the Lord’s path where it’s godly sorrow, and there’s a huge difference. And all too often, we promote shame in our membership. Right.
[42:05] Michelle: I was just talking to, um, Alicia Worthington in my, in a recent episode where I talked about that I actually have come to learn that often sin is a means to an end. The ads the the the adversary doesn’t just want us to sin. The adversary wants us in a place of hopelessness, shame. Self hatred, suicidality, because there’s, you know, that’s where the adversary wants us. He just uses sin to get us there,
[42:29] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: right? Because, if you follow that all the way down, the last one on mine was spiritual and temporal destruction from Satan. And from the Lord, it’s, it’s life eternal. And on a savior.
[42:43] Michelle: It’s, it’s the purpose, the purpose of the atonement, right? Sin isn’t, this will sound, it’s so easy to take wrong, but sin isn’t actually the biggest problem. Sin is baked into the pie, right? It’s, it’s the it is. It’s what you said. It’s the opportunity that it’s what we choose to do with it. And, and because of our, because we’re so inclined to judge and to hide. We go the path of shame and hiding rather than, hey, this is what this life is all about. And, you know, so I think it’s a good, it’s a good story. So anyway, continue on. Were you going to talk more about, I do want to hear more about your experience and finding out about the second affair.
[43:22] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: So, in that one, I was just woke up in the middle of the night and, um, found out, I was kind of told where to look and what to figure out. And I found out. Um, and, and really for me that that isn’t. I mean, the, the, it was hard. Trust me, I had a year where I don’t think I really even functioned as a person. I just kind of went through the motions. But my body was doing a lot of uh high level cortisol. I was running on adrenals. It was, it was interesting what it did to my physical body, but What was more interesting is where it caused me to go. With my thoughts because I was, I had just before I found out about the affair we were studying the Old Testament and we were studying about Noah and the flood and, you know, I’m doing the come follow me thing and and I was like, wait a minute. Noah had 8 people on that boat. And 6 of them could have children. And all the animals were 2 by 2. And it was interesting that that was the thought that came to my mind. This was before I even knew about this, this other, this other affair, and I was like, that’s interesting. God didn’t even use extra wives then. To repopulate the earth. And even with the animals, that’s pretty interesting, and then I thought about Adam and Eve and same thing, you know. And then I found out about the affair, and my heart turns to Emma. And I really couldn’t get my heart off of Emma. And I thought, OK, God. If Joseph Smith had wives. Behind Emma’s back. How is her betrayal any different than mine? How can she feel? Like she deserves anything different than I do, because I cannot imagine a god. That would ever want a woman to feel that kind of betrayal. Now, That being said, I hadn’t studied at all about Joseph Smith’s polygamy. I just accepted it. I had accepted that it was part of the church and that polygamy was part of the plan and all of that, but I kept telling heavenly Father. This isn’t right, because I can’t believe what I’m going through. Why would you ever have a man betray his wife? Why would you ever ask a man to do that? And the thoughts, cause I get little phrases was just keep studying. So I did.
[46:08] Michelle: Oh,
[46:09] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: I tell you a lot.
[46:11] Michelle: To me that situation is so profound while you are actively. struggling through the grief and trauma. Of betrayal. And this was the 2nd betrayal. How many do we claim that Emma dealt with with people living in her home, with her friends, with her associates, Girls she was raising as her own daughters and teaching them her skills, right? And, and you’re actively feeling that. Recognizing there is no way this is of God, zero chance. Like, like you had the experience that most of us think heaven don’t have of experience what experiencing firsthand what Emma would have gone through. Right, right. I love, I love, I just loved when you told me that. I’m like, that is profound, that that was your insight. Even in your own grief, you were able to think about another woman and go, no, this is not a God.
[47:10] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: It was, it was interesting because, um, you know, I, I have family and friends that have entered polygamy willingly and knowingly. But for me the story of Emma, and it all being behind her back, which is what we’re told. I just Right, it didn’t make any sense and and I’ve had people say to me, oh, but that’s different. It was, it was of God that that and I’m like, no, I don’t think the betrayal feels any different. It feels the same.
[47:41] Michelle: Oh yeah, you’re right. And the stupid excuse of, well, it’s because she wouldn’t get on board. She, she, she had to accept it. That’s so, yeah, yes,
[47:50] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: I have something to say about that because if If, if, if the God I worship anyway, who loves women and loves us all individually. If a woman would not get on board, and this was an absolute must, by God, then God would have said, give her a writing of divorcement, and then he would have told Joseph to do something different. That is not the story we’re told, and I don’t buy it. That not the God I
[48:22] Michelle: worship. Exact. I even, I’ve made the comparison of with Mary and Joseph, God sent an angel to Joseph, right? Like, God is not in the business of breaking up marriages, and I know God is not in the business of creating that kind of betrayal, trauma. That That is why there is such a strong prohibition on adultery, because it does this. Like what you
[48:46] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: is very, very real, and you’re, you’re, you go through something physically, emotionally, mentally, it changes your brain 100%.
[48:59] Michelle: OK.
[48:59] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: And, and I don’t want anybody to, to watch this video and think, oh, she’s a victim. No, I am not a victim. I made a conscious decision to stay with my husband, and I am so grateful that I have. We love each other, we respect each other. We are working on lots of things together, and I have learned, one of the greatest things I have learned from all of this is, it is my job to love him. It is God’s job to save him.
[49:29] Michelle: Wow, that’s actually profound. That’s profound. OK. So, OK, I love that. And that is such a healthy way to be, because really, everyone that’s thinking, Oh, I would never stay. You should have left, you know, look at what you would have lost, because he was diagnosed. He is in a better place. You have this experience now that you, that would have been sacrificed because you, you know, it wasn’t time
[49:52] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: yet. I got angry and was done, you know, I mean, in my head.
[49:58] Michelle: Yeah. Sure.
[50:00] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: And, and I thought I was justified, and I was fine with it. I was, I was like, yeah, I can do this. I’ll be fine. I’m, I’m done. I have a daughter on a mission at the time. It was, it was, it upended our whole family. But what’s amazing, and something my kids have said to me is, you taught us firsthand what forgiveness really looks like. And they love their dad, and I love their dad. He’s a good man who made mistakes and And it’s been hard for for him and I, but we’ve worked through so so much and This is gonna sound terrible. But I don’t think, I think the Lord knows me enough to know that if this would have happened with anyone else, I would have never learned these lessons cause I’d have been like, you’re out, but I love him so much and he knows how much I love him. And The Lord has shown me such great mercy in giving me the ability to see past his mistakes and love him for the soul that he really is inside, which is Good.
[51:13] Michelle: Oh, that’s beautiful. OK, that’s beautiful. I’m so thankful you’re sharing this, and to clarify for all of the comments coming in. Neither of us is saying, this is what you should do if your spouse is unfaithful at all, right? Except that what you should do is see the direction the Lord gives you. That’s, that’s the model to follow, not, not following your answers.
[51:37] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: So it’s interesting you say that. So I’ve been married twice. So my first husband and I were only married for less than 2 years, and we did have one son together and Um, so it was a really fast marriage early in my, you know, twenties. When I got on my knees on that one, I told the Lord I couldn’t do this anymore. I was exhausted and I just, I just was done. And it was interesting the different feeling I had then. And my first husband’s a good man. It, it has nothing to do with that, but the relief that I felt like the burden that was lifted from me during that. Prayer, let me know it was OK for me. To, to move forward. And I did. And it was, it was, it was good for both of us. It was the right decision for both of us, um, and we’ve both gone on to have very happy lives and we’re still friends. But it’s interesting because in one case I was told, yep, you’re OK, go ahead. And the other I was told, no, just be patient, love it more. And, and it shocked me to get that answer.
[52:50] Michelle: OK. I’m glad you brought that up so that people can hear. Yeah, what we, what we need is less judgment, right? And people more seeking and relying on the Lord and less judgment of others’ answers. That would be great. So I’m glad that
[53:03] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: you. And I think honestly, Michelle, both ways, the easy path for me would have been to leave. Like, honestly, that would have been the easiest path. Maybe not financially, but the easiest path mentally and emotionally, but God’s just so much bigger than our problems, and the savior’s atoning sacrifice can come in and repair things that seem irreparable. I have a bowl upstairs. It’s one of those um. I should have brought it to show you guys, but it’s a little bowl. I’ll have to take a picture of it and you can stick it somewhere in your videos, but it’s a bowl and it’s all cracked and then put back together with gold. And for me, that’s my marriage. It’s more beautiful now because of all the broken pieces being put back together than it was before.
[53:58] Michelle: Yeah, I know, we, I actually uh. Um, made several of those white vases after we lost my little girl. We did the Japanese, because I’ll, I’ll put the word there because I can’t.
[54:11] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: It’s, I can’t remember right now either. New York or something,
[54:14] Michelle: yeah. Beautiful, exquisite metaphor. That’s profound. Yep. So, OK, so let me ask you this question that, you know, some people might say. So, um, You grew so much through this experience and the Lord helped you through it. So, and, and has helped you become a better person, right? So why isn’t that also true for Emma? Why, why wasn’t Emma also, um, enabled to be, if she had relied more on the Lord, she could have been healed from the betrayal, she wouldn’t have had to feel it. She Do do you know what I’m saying? Like, can, can we still see this as God’s hand? What would you say to that? Like that that Emma had these opportunities given to her.
[55:03] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: So, um, in the case of, in the case of Emma and Joseph, the Lord commanded this. In the case of my husband, it was a decision he made on his own, and not commanded of God. But I just have to go to, why would God command that? Why would God command a betrayal? And I don’t believe he would. I, I don’t believe he would. Um, and people could say maybe Emma was in denial this whole time. Maybe she, you know, just refused to see it and and was just denying it, and, and she knew about it and all of those things, maybe. And, and I have to hold in reserve the fact that it’s possible. That all of this did happen the way the church said it did, but I don’t believe it anymore. I personally don’t believe Joseph was a polygamist anymore, and I, and I am quite positive polygamy is not of God at all based on scriptures and, and I was grateful for your podcast because I was about ready to throw the whole thing away. I was like, baby with bathwater, it’s all gone, I’m done. And it was because of you
[56:15] Michelle: stayed through the excommunication, you stayed through the the all of it. Sort of disfellowship, the unofficial disfellowship, and moving, you continued to stay, and it was that it was the second betrayal and feeling Emma’s betrayal that was where you were like, I’m done. Yeah,
[56:32] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: I, I kind of thought I’m, I, I don’t think this is my church. Like I really believed that for a while. I was like, yeah, if this is if this is the things that my church is founded on, I don’t want it. Like that’s really where I was at. And because of your podcast and because of some other things that I’ve been reading and studying, I have a lot of friends that have left over the polygamy issue, um. But, but for me, I was, I was raised in Florida, and in Florida, um I would sit with my friends and the black boys wouldn’t be able to go past the sacrament cause this is pre 78 and my heart was breaking as a little kid, like, why can’t they do it? What? I don’t get it. Like, what’s going on? And, and I didn’t see color. I just didn’t. And um I went to the Lord and I said, you know, why can’t, why can’t my friends get the priesthood like my other friends? And um, it was interesting cause my little mind only could receive little answers, and the answer was, it’ll all work itself out, don’t worry. And so I didn’t worry. Then, when the, when um the blacks received the priesthood in our church, I had another question. Because I had grown up with all of that garbage about seed of Cain, less righteous, all those dumb things that are said about about the whole ban, and I started studying. So I, I found out Joseph Smith gave blacks the priesthood. I found out that um it was it was after Joseph’s death that the ban actually went into effect. I read some things that Brigham Young had said. And, and, and we’re all allowed to have our own personal lives and, and in my opinion, Brigham Young was a bit of a bigot, but so were most of, most of the white people at the time were very bigoted. And I think there were a few really good hearted people that were close to the Lord that were not, Joseph being one of them. And When I prayed the next time, The church still had all that stuff out there about about blacks in the priesthood and man. And my the answer that I got from the Lord the next time was I said, what took so long? And his answer was, I wasn’t waiting for them, I was waiting for you. And I was like, oh. So you’re waiting for whites to stop being bigots. And, and I was like, that’s interesting. Now a lot of people say, oh, it was all social pressure, it all happened. Well, sure, social pressure causes us to look at our hearts and make decisions. And I, I do think it was revelation when, you know, the priesthood was restored again to those members, and I think those members that were willing to be so good about this and patient were amazing, cause I don’t know if I could have done it. But eventually the church took away all those reasons, said, well, we really don’t know, but let’s just move forward. But the Lord told me personally, and, you know, I don’t speak for the church, but I, my heart was comforted. And I feel like now the same thing is happening. The Lord has told me personally, this was not of him. This was not part of the plan, and that as I keep studying, I will receive more and more enlightenment and We’ll see where it where see where it all goes, but um. I mean, I, I’m sure I could be wrong. I’m sure I could be deceived somewhere, but that’s where how I feel right now, and I really do hope the day comes when the church does come out and say, oh, and by the way, along with every other Brigham Young thing we’ve gotten rid of, we’re gonna get rid of this one too.
[1:00:26] Michelle: Oh, amen. Amen to that. I’m like waiting anxiously, hoping that sometime in my lifetime, maybe. But, um, I love that. So I, I mean, I think the question of deception, like, like, I think, yeah, we don’t know everything, right? But I will say. I now feel much less deceived than I did before. I’m much more enlightened, much more aware of the nature of God, much more aware of the struggles of our ancestors and the dishonesty that has been passed down to us and the hidden things, right? So I think, I just want to clarify, it’s not like, oh, it could be this, it could be this. I’m citing the This, it’s a process of discovery and growth and inspiration coming out of deception into more light and knowledge, right? And, and, and with the acknowledgement, there’s much more to learn. But I know that what we have to learn isn’t, oh, that was right back there where we used to be in our ignorance and blindness, right? And so, like, I don’t think you could ever be convinced that God inspired Joseph to betray Emma. In any way similar to what you experienced.
[1:01:33] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: No. And I don’t think you would do it to any woman. Right, I don’t think he ever tells people to sin so somebody can learn something. But, but if there is a sin along the way, and we turn our hearts to the Lord, he will, he will turn it for our good. He will give us lessons that we can learn from it. It’s, it’s when we become bitter. That that we we don’t become better. So if we allow that bitterness to to sink in and and we get super bitter about it, that’s when it all, it all falls apart, and there’s no good that comes from it. But good can come from anything in this life. Anything. We, we live in a fallen world. We are all fallen individuals. We all have things we need to repent of and things. needed to forgive for. But the best thing is, we have to, to make sure that we’re doing it in a way that the Lord wants us to do it. And then it can be turned for our good, and we will actually have growth. And, and, you know, I, I, I’m not gonna pretend like I was, you know, this perfect person while all this was going on. My life really felt like it turned upside down, and it was hard to put it back together. But it’s coming back together.
[1:02:50] Michelle: OK. So I want to go into that process. I do want to just add a little to what you were saying that you’re right, God can always help us make lemonade, right? We grow through. That doesn’t mean the experience or someone is justified it. You, if you ever use, oh, God can heal that person as a justification to victimize them, you are, you are way off base, right? Like, like we all have earth shatteringly difficult experiences. And we can grow from them. That doesn’t mean that that everyone should have that experience, right? And so that’s a ridiculous way to look at it for and I just am thinking of, it’s so abusive to be like, oh, God can help you heal. So it does, I don’t really have to take responsibility, or I don’t have to see, you know, But God calls on us to see the suffering and the poverty, and the calls on us to, we are God’s hands, right? We are supposed to lift and sustain and bless, not hurt with the excuse, oh, God’s got it. He can, he can clean up my mess. That’s a horrible inversion of any truth.
[1:03:56] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: Although I do have to say this, that’s kind of funny that you actually said it that way. Because, um, in, in this whole process with my husband’s excommunication, I kept saying to the Lord, OK, these men made these decisions and it’s sent Cleeve down a path that I can’t even figure out what to do at this point, cause our marriage just kept getting rockier and rockier and rockier, you know, until after the the second offense. But I remember. Like, kind of being angry and saying, you know, God, what do you, what do you expect me to do with this? I don’t even know what you expect me to do with all of this. And it was, again, a small phrase, and it actually made me smile, and it was, I’m Jesus, I’ve got this. And it was the cutest thing, and I remember thinking, yeah. He’s made universes, I just need to let go. This is, I’m not the driver.
[1:04:55] Michelle: So when you ask God what do you want me to do with this, the answer was, let me have it. You don’t have to do anything with it, just give it to me. That’s in a way. OK, OK, so can you talk a little bit about um your process, your journey, so your husband is still not back in the church, right? Like that. And his mental health is better, but that severing from the church has up until this point been permanent.
[1:05:24] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: Yes, and actually for him, I think it’s been good for his mental health, to be honest with you, because he was raised in an environment where the church was used as a weapon. Um, he was raised.
[1:05:36] Michelle: In his polygamist upbringing.
[1:05:38] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: No, my, my husband wasn’t. That was,
[1:05:41] Michelle: that was your dad, yeah,
[1:05:43] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: my husband, my husband was raised in a, in a fatherless home because his dad died when he was 7. He is 7 of 11 children. So there’s a lot of kids, and he was only 7 of the 11 when his father died. So there’s a bunch of little kids, and then there’s some older kids, and there, there were 8 of the 11 kids in the home when his father passed away. And at that point, his mom was a member of the church, and she was, um, raising her kids very actively in the church, but she had a lot of the principles and concepts, kind of. melded with other religions and so it was kind of this Catholic, Methodist Protestant, Mormon thing. And so it was like a lot of different religious viewpoints mixed, um, and she would call on her, uh, Her home teachers, and they would come over and discipline the children for her when she was just at her wits end. And they disciplined with belts and things like that. And so my
[1:06:48] Michelle: husband, the homes. OK, sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt. That is, that is stunning. That like the home teacher service, she would call on them to come give a whipping to one of her sons, and they would do that.
[1:07:01] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: Mhm. And they did.
[1:07:03] Michelle: OK, continue. I, that’s
[1:07:05] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: so, so my husband hated the church from the time he was little, and then he had an experience where he got super super sunburned at a At a camp, you know, to the point that his face was swollen and he could barely talk, his skin was so tight. He was so sunburned, and they asked him to give a talk in church, and he told his mom he didn’t want to do it. And his mother forced him, a lot of force in this home. There was never agency allowed. It was do it my way or the highway, and she forced him to give a talk, and he’s still traumatized by that. Like he can’t speak in public the way he wants to. And my husband has amazing things to say. Like, he’s got an amazing spirit and an amazing heart, and when he has something to say, it is profound and powerful. But he rarely, you know, will speak anymore, you know, even when he was a member, he, he would rarely speak in church,
[1:08:07] Michelle: but experience, wow.
[1:08:09] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: Yeah, so I mean it was, it was interesting. I mean, and and then. You know, um, we continue to have things inside the church where I’ve had to do a lot of like, I have to remember these people are just servants, they are, they’re not my leaders, they’re not, you know, a bishop leads the congregation. He doesn’t lead me. He’s a servant to me, and I am a fellow servant with him, and I have to sustain him in his responsibilities. And and so I think that it’s important that that we stop even putting bishops or state presidents or it doesn’t mean we don’t respect their callings, but they’re still just people with their own life experiences and their own prejudices going into these positions. Um, when I moved into this ward, because my husband’s not a member, our, our family got completely skipped over to speak in church. Like we weren’t. You know how you know how like that’s kind of normal. Here’s the family, here’s a new family in the ward, they’ve all been asked to speak. Nope. Nothing.
[1:09:11] Michelle: Yeah, cause it was tricky. What do we do? Oh, they didn’t know what to
[1:09:14] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: do. They didn’t know what to do with it. Yeah, I got skipped, my kids got skipped. It it’s like we don’t exist. It’s a weird, weird place to be.
[1:09:24] Michelle: That
[1:09:24] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: is
[1:09:24] Michelle: hard. It’s kind of the widow situation, but more complicated. Yeah, I mean, you know, like, like, like I, I, I spoke to someone who talked about how the church doesn’t know how to manage with young widows always, you know, and you’re kind of on the church records.
[1:09:41] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: I sort of I’m the head of household on the church records. Oh,
[1:09:45] Michelle: that’s so interesting. So your husband isn’t even present on the church records. This is complicated. Wow. OK. So, do you want to talk about your process of healing and
[1:09:59] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: So there’s this thing that I learned when I was in the process of the healing that um it’s I, they call it swirl. I I know that’s a weird acronym, but it stands for shattering, obviously. Then there’s a withdrawal stage, then there’s an internalization stage where it’s all your fault. And then there’s a rage that comes out and it is a rage like nobody’s ever seen before. For no reason and every reason, and then there’s a lifting, and you can swirl through these emotions in 20 minutes, in 2 months, in a year. Every hour, you know, it just depends on you. But as you continue to go through those, those patterns, you start recognizing what’s a healthy lifting and what’s an unhealthy lifting. Like, sometimes we lift ourselves by saying, you know, things like, I’m better than this. I, I’m gonna get, it’s like there’s a lot of anger and frustration and like you just, you lift yourself because you don’t know how else to get out of it. But that’s not healthy, actually, because it works, but it’s temporary. The best kind of lifting is lifting when you love yourself and love the person that’s hurt you, or love or love the situation that’s caused you the problem, or the grief, or the hurt. And so it’s just been a lot of recognizing where I’m at emotionally and, and being OK with where I am. I’ve had to give a lot myself a lot of forgiveness for some of the choices I’ve made while I was in all this process, because some of my choices are honestly not very good. But I’ve even had to remind myself, the Lord knows exactly where I am. And he’s OK with me. And I get to remember that I am on a journey to heal, and that in that journey, sometimes my steps don’t look like they’re right to other people, but they’re exactly what I need to get through my healing.
[1:12:06] Michelle: OK, so, OK, this is so beautiful. So it sounds to me like kind of a different way to explain the grief process. Like I know they talk about the stages of grief, but this seems somehow more. More accurate, more and more hopeful. It’s not
[1:12:24] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: one of the stages of grief is denial, and I don’t think I ever had that, but, but this rage was interesting because I would find myself so angry. That I, I couldn’t even like. Like it took over my whole body and or the it was either rage or sheer panic and and I I couldn’t even, I couldn’t even function and Recognizing that rage was what brought me to this swirl, and it’s from somebody’s book, and I, I can’t remember the name of it right now, but um I’ll look it up and get it to you so that you can put it in the link, but Recognizing this swirling process, I think it’s the journey from abandonment to healing. I think that’s actually the book that it’s in. And and because when you go through this kind of betrayal, it’s an abandonment response. Your body goes through this abandonment response and and part of the healing process is also that feeling of abandonment. By my church, and my church just kind of pushing me aside because somehow because I wasn’t sealed to anyone anymore and my husband wasn’t a member anymore, and it wasn’t like he was wasn’t ever a member, he’s an excommunicated member. I was getting treated very, very different. by not, not the people in my ward, but by the, the quote, leaders of my ward or my stake. And my state president down here in Bluffdale has been fabulous, just absolutely fabulous, and he was just recently released, but Um, Not my current bishop, but my former bishop. I had a little harder time with, you know, it was just there was a lot of that patriarchy uh baked in where somehow if my husband wasn’t a member, I’d, I wasn’t invisible. Uh,
[1:14:23] Michelle: that’s really, so it’s, it’s an ongoing, like day to day. I want, so I want to talk, talk a little more about this, but If this isn’t too personal of a question, why have you stayed in the church? And how have you stayed in the church? Like, with, with everything you’ve experienced, um, on a personal level and on a theological level, right? That like,
[1:14:49] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: But I didn’t even tell you when I was 12, I got my own bishop’s court for myself. They called me in. I’ve had stuff from the time as a 12 year old, a 12 year old girl.
[1:15:01] Michelle: OK, so I cannot think of anything a 12-year-old girl could do to warrant a disciplinary counsel. Can I, can I ask that story? That’s insane.
[1:15:13] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: Sure. So what happened was, um, I’m 12 and I’m in junior high and I’m Just being a normal kid, and there was a girl in my ward who was very, who was very rude to me for most of my time living there. I’d only lived there about a year, and she was just mean, mean, mean. And then the the tables kind of turned, and all of her friends kind of became my friends. Well, I was not very nice back. I just chose to kind of give to her kind of what she dished out, and her mother went to the bishop and kind of tattled on me. And said this, this, this girl is being so mean to my daughter, you need to call her in and she needs to know that her membership is in jeopardy for behaving this way to my daughter. I mean, I don’t even know what I could have done. Like, for real, I don’t know what I did other than just maybe be a little snotty sometimes.
[1:16:09] Michelle: Well, let me, OK, let me just say, I’ve heard mean stories and sometimes in the church, I’ve heard h there was a, one of my young women leaders had a little sister, and the girls who had been so mean to her wrapped up a present and brought it to her one week and were all happy and eager to give her a present. And she opened it and it was dog food. Like, people can do mean, mean,
[1:16:33] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: right? And like
[1:16:35] Michelle: they’re not, they are not sent to a disciplinary council, like, like, I’m all for let’s not have let’s teach our kids to be kind. So why in the world did it go to a disciplinary council? Was it?
[1:16:47] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: So I got a letter in the mail, like an official letter in the mail, calling me in to this disciplinary council. And I’m 12, I don’t even know what that is. Like, I don’t even know what that is. Yeah, I, I showed my mom and she was like, well, just go ahead and go in, let them say whatever they’re gonna say, and she just kind of blew it off. I thought I didn’t know what she was doing behind my back, but um. She was actually, she’d actually went into the bishop and said, um, if you’re holding a disciplinary council for my daughter, put me on the list. OK, she was mad. So my mom’s a fighter, so, um. So I go into the the the meeting and he’s and and I’m like, he’s like, do you know what you’re in here for? I’m like, actually, no, I don’t, I’m 12. I don’t even know. I don’t even know what’s going on. I have a
[1:17:38] Michelle: 12 year old daughter. I’m just like I’m blown away like,
[1:17:42] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: so he sits and tells me how my membership is in jeopardy for conduct unbecoming a Christian.
[1:17:48] Michelle: You don’t even know what any of those words mean
[1:17:50] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: even
[1:17:51] Michelle: mean.
[1:17:51] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: Like, I didn’t know. I didn’t know what that meant. I’m like, I’m sitting there thinking, what have I done? What have I done? What have I done? Like, I couldn’t even think of anything I’d done other than ignore sometimes or, you know, make a.
[1:18:03] Michelle: I imagine you were terrified though, like being in front of all of these men
[1:18:07] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: and it was only him. He only had me come in just in front of him that that first meeting. And, and I said, well, I got this letter, and he says, yes, we’re we’re considering holding a council to see if we need to take your membership from you. And I said, OK, well, OK, like I didn’t know what to say. I didn’t even know what that meant. I didn’t know what I’d done. So I walk out of the meeting seriously knowing as much as I did going in. Other than him telling me that there were notes that had been written back and forth between friends and that he had been given copies of them. I’m like, OK, I still don’t know what I’ve done. Well,
[1:18:47] Michelle: I was writing notes facing excommunication as Oh my word.
[1:18:53] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: So to this man’s credit, and, and I am gonna give him credit for this, there were two other girls he had done this to as well, one of them being his own daughter. So he’s trying to scare us straight, I guess, you know, it was like the scared straight tactic like you better be good and nice to everybody or else you’re in trouble. So it was just really kind of hilarious, but I never heard again anything, and then over the pulpit in church at a big meeting, he publicly apologized to me, the other girl and his daughter by name for For things he had done and for the hurt that he had caused. And I mean I’m 12, like, I don’t even care. Like he’s not even on my radar really, but I remember at the time thinking at least he had the courage to say that over the pulpit. I don’t know what the other two girls went through emotionally. It did absolutely nothing for me because my mom had taught me, cause I was living in Utah, but I was raised in Florida. Doesn’t matter. People are just people. It’s not the gospel of Jesus Christ. Learn the gospel of Jesus Christ, let people be people. They are not the same thing. So that’s what I’ve done.
[1:20:07] Michelle: That is an amazing story. Thank you for sharing the details.
[1:20:11] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: So I have always relied on my own personal witness of everything, everything. And in fact, it’s been super important to me, no matter where it’s coming from, whether it’s coming from one of the 12 or the prophet himself, or a 70, or whoever. My parents taught me when you receive instruction from anyone in the church, it is your responsibility and your duty to go home, get on your knees, and receive a witness that what you are being asked to do is of God. And there have been times I’ve received that witness, and there have been times I have not.
[1:20:55] Michelle: OK. So they met, because I know a lot of people say that from the context of, if you don’t receive a witness, that’s your problem. Right? Like, it’s your responsibility to have God tell you that everything they said was true, rather than it’s your it’s your responsibility and privilege to test everything that they have said. With blood to check with, to make sure we are we
[1:21:21] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: should be, we should be testing everything and getting our own witness. Otherwise, then we’re just blind followers and the same as a slothful servant that has to be commanded in all things. And if we’re going to be commanded in all things, Then why do we need to have prayer or personal revelation or anything? Or
[1:21:39] Michelle: Alma’s discourse on Alma teaches us, like, plant the seed and see what happens, right? Everything that you’re taught can be a seed that you can take and try the word, right? We’re told that again and again, and yet we kind of act like, well, no, OK, past prophets could have done something wrong, but not current. You know, we have this weird ill-defined place.
[1:22:00] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: So I just believe that all prophets are still just people. And I love and honor and respect them. Some are the first for sure, but um that being said, It’s our responsibility to make sure that anything they’ve taught we receive witness up. There are a lot of things Brigham Young has taught that man, I agree with it. There’s things that are just absolutely beautiful that he has taught that I’m like, yeah, that was pretty much from from the Lord, whether he received it or it was just good counsel or whatever, it was good. Um, and there’s other things that I’m like, nope.
[1:22:39] Michelle: I’m so glad you said that because I’m still sorting through trying to figure out how God uses people. We know God uses flawed people, right? But they are like. There are flaws and there are flaws, right? Like, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were not the same kind of person, right? With, with what I have come to believe and what you have come to believe about Joseph Smith, those who want to paint them with the same brush and think Joseph, like, was the real bad guy and Brigham was just carrying that on, right? And so I am still trying to figure out because yes, every time I read something of Brigham, That’s good. I’m like, 00, good. Oh good, you know, but with the research I’m doing, I, I tend to read more of the negative. And I think that’s really good to, to just like with our fellow man. Um, my, my state president talked to me a lot about in all patience and faith, like we bear with our leaders in all patience and faith. And maybe we need to do that with everybody. But I think we should. I, I don’t like the idea you can’t say anything negative about what they’re doing that seems clearly wrong to you. I, I don’t like that. But I also don’t like the hyperfocus only pointing at the negative of our leaders that it’s happening all, you know, like. Right,
[1:23:52] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: there’s a, there’s a middle ground somewhere in there.
[1:23:54] Michelle: Yeah, where it’s like, oh, that wasn’t good, let’s maybe call that out. But let’s also talk about all of the good, and, and that’s, I’m trying to find that balance. It’s tricky, but I’m, I’m glad you brought that up because I think it’s important. So So this whole process really helped you so you could kind of pinpoint where you were, be there, and then kind of choose what to do with that. Is that how you managed it?
[1:24:20] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: That, and I think I had to do a lot, a lot of breathing techniques. So one of the, one of the things I learned was, um, they call it bundus breath. A lot of people do it with yoga. It’s or some people say the um, you know, it’s, it’s making a sound. As you breathe out. And for whatever reason, it triggers something in your body that makes you feel safe. So when we’re feeling unsafe, if we will take a deep breath in and breathe out with a sound, whether it’s a hum or an audible sound, I mean, I’ll do it for you so you know what I’m talking about. Like, And go for as long as you can. That vibration in your body triggers an actual physiological response that makes us feel safe. So when I was in my biggest traumatic moments in my, you know, most difficult times, I would go to my room and I would just breathe like that. And make those sounds. You feel kind of dumb doing it in front of people, but you just go do it by yourself and you’ll you’ll, your body will calm down and you’ll be able to get to a place where you can think clearly again, cause when you’re in the middle of it, you don’t think clearly.
[1:25:34] Michelle: Right, right. OK, those are good. That’s, that’s really good to know, and it’s good to see how, like I’m just so Happy to know that you and your husband are in a place where you can, you know, reap all of the benefits of what you have built together and what you’ve been through together and to see how grandkids
[1:25:53] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: now, and I mean, we’ve got our family’s growing and it’s, it’s just we have a beautiful family and, and, you know, he’s, he said things to me like I can’t believe I almost threw all of this away. OK. And you know, he, he understands and he’s, and he has, you know, remorse and, and to me repentance is choosing not to do it again. And so now with that scripture I gave you before, um, yep, he would have been kicked out for sure anyway, but A lot of me wonders if he would have ever done it again had it been handled differently the first time. Right? So there is that, but I can’t go back and what if it, because this is where we are and it is what it is. And we get to figure out how to just move forward and create and, and, and become as as good of people as we can at this point.
[1:26:52] Michelle: And can I just say the fact that he would support you in coming on and talking about your story together. It is such a testimony of his humility and his
[1:27:04] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: just be nice to me. I was like, OK,
[1:27:09] Michelle: that’s so sweet. Like that is huge because of that shame thing. Like that shows how much he’s choosing to not live in that place of shame.
[1:27:19] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: But he doesn’t need to have shame for it. It shame is Satan’s tool. That is a tool of Satan 100. percent. And when we begin to choose shame for anything, so I have some weird beliefs about this, but, you know, all of us are electrical beings, and everything around us has vibrations. And shame is very low on the vibrational scale. And I believe that scale. So when we’re at the lowest vibration, I believe that’s we’re at the, we’re at the vibration where we actually can hear. Satan and his minions. Oh, we’re at a place of courage. We are in a very neutral place. And when we get to some of those higher vibrations of love, forgiveness, abundance, joy, that’s when we hear that the actual heavenly messengers and we actually get A different um process in our minds, where we’re where we’re receiving inspiration and enlightenment and maybe the whisperings of the Holy Ghost, but you can’t feel those. When you’re in that lower vibration. So to me, that lower vibration just puts you in Satan’s playground, where he can just keep messing and keep messing. But to have shame is always the wrong place to go. The minute you have courage to change, courage. So you have guilt about something, choose courage to change. And when you choose courage, you take that all that shame and stuff away from you. And now you can have, you can have godly sorrow for what you’ve done. But that godly sorrow gives you courage to change, and that’s where we need to sit. That’s where we need to be, and that will end up giving us the inspiration and the things that we need to do to to be a good, to be good in God’s world. I mean, just the other day, my husband was stuck on the freeway, you know, that big snowstorm that hit, he was driving down to do a job and And he got detoured because of a big accident on the freeway. So he got detoured. He was already leaving 2 hours late to go to a job that was like 2 hours away. Him and my son were driving and he’s on this other road, and he was like, let’s just go look at this outlook, like, you know, one of those like scenic routes. Exits and he took it. It’s so unlike my husband, so unlike him. So him and my son get out of their truck and they go look at the overlook, and they’re kind of looking around and enjoying the beautiful things and just being very present, which is also a higher vibration. And they get back to the truck and there’s a 22 year old girl sobbing. She needs jumper cables. She’d been there for hours. Nobody had come to the overlook. She couldn’t, her cell phone was working, but she called AAA, she was moving and she was on a journey, couldn’t get. Couldn’t get any help. AAA was like 3 hours out. My husband had jumped cables, started her car, followed her out of that little area and got her to a town. And so when you, when you choose good in your life and you choose to change, the Lord works through you. He works through my husband, who’s not a member of this church, but he still works through him because he’s a good person, and the Lord loves him.
[1:30:41] Michelle: Yes, absolutely. And I love, so I resonate with so much of what you were talking about, that being in that place of that blackness of shame and despair and, right? I, I think of Alma the Younger and how it is instantaneous. God absolutely can reach us. The second, the second we just put up a little an. Like, God, are you there? Oh, I’m there. You bet. You know, and, and we can be elevated out of that. The trick is to realize that and not keep that little place of shame in our back pocket or, you know, or, or just choose to dwell there. That’s, it’s all lies. None of that is truth. And so, and I love how you talk about just being present and how God uses us. Because your husband was just in flow.
[1:31:27] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: I was. Well, and, and if you really think about it, I mean, the the Lord’s name is I am, which isn’t I was or I’m gonna be, it’s, it’s I am. And there’s a reason it’s a present tense verb, and I really believe that when we’re in the greatest place of creation for good or evil, we’re using phrases like I am something. Um, yeah, so, so to me when, you know, we say I am a victim. That’s what we’re creating. We say, I am healthy and happy, and I’m, I’m, I’m good with my life and, and I love my husband and I, I am able to forgive, and I am forgiving and I am loved. Those are words of creation where we’re actually invoking our savior’s name to do it.
[1:32:15] Michelle: Wow, that’s amazing to see, see the name of God as a tool for creation, a tool for us to create. That’s, I like that. That’s really profound.
[1:32:25] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: Well, and I think that that’s also scriptural, to be honest with you, because when the Lord was talking about Abraham, you know, he said, I, I knew the Before thou was, you know, and he says, but he said it and I am, you know, it’s, it’s his way of trying to show us, it’s always and forever present to him. Living in the present and being present with our lives because there is no time in the Lord.
[1:32:53] Michelle: Absolutely. Yep. And as we learn more, we even change our past because we see it with new eyes, right? We bring more meaning and growth to it. So, OK, Jacqueline, this has been really insightful. Is there anything else you want to share?
[1:33:08] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: No, I, I think, I think that the biggest thing is, you know, my husband actually is reading the Book of Mormon again for the first time in like 6 years. So that’s kind of interesting and I’ve, I’ve talked to him a lot about some of the things I feel about the Book of Mormon and how it is the most correct book and that, that if he has questions, if he goes to the Lord, he’ll get the answers he needs. It might be through a person, it might be through a podcast, but you’ll find the answers cause that’s how the Lord answers me.
[1:33:37] Michelle: OK, that’s awesome. And I just feel, we just like pass our love on to your husband. This is just an amazing, I mean, the fact that he like gave you his blessing to come on and talk about this with such vulnerability and the fact that you were willing to, I think you’ve done a beautiful job. And
[1:33:53] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: his, his phrase was, you know, if this can help somebody, if this can help somebody figure out something to do with the gospel and it does good, then go ahead. I mean, he’s not, that’s not who he is. That’s what he did, but that is not who he is. And, and I think it’s important that people realize that our mistakes don’t define us. The savior has defined us, and the savior came to this earth to correct our mistakes and atone for them when we repent. And That’s what’s important, and we need to remember that as members. We are not better than people who are not members. We are not better, we’re just not better, and we’ve got to quit putting ourselves on that ramtum. That we do where we think that because we have the gospel that somehow makes us better. No, we need to be better at being loving and forgiving and kinder and more inclusive and and more just available for people who are brokenhearted and whose hands hang down.
[1:35:05] Michelle: That’s exactly how I interpret our covenant to stand as a witness of Christ at all times and in all things and in all places. People misinterpret that to think that God needs them to judge and to, you know, to condemn. No, it is exactly what you’re saying. It is. Every morning, God, how can I be your hands today? How can I serve you today? How can you know, how can I share your love today? That’s our quest. That’s what it means to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. I believe so strongly. So.
[1:35:38] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: One of my favorite classic books is um Les Miserable, and I feel that many times members play that part of Javert. And they just want to exact justice, and they forget that our Lord is so merciful, and that truly we have to remember that it’s the mercy that The Lord uses on our behalf and that we don’t have to be. Exacting, and we don’t have to be the ones that create the punishment.
[1:36:11] Michelle: Right. And you know what? We can apply this like, like I’m just looking at you as one generation removed from polygamy, really, right? And your dad having to go through the process of re-evaluating his beliefs and, and no longer believing that his ancestors, which included his parents, were correct, right? That’s a challenge for a lot of people that Yeah I think that’s one of the things that keeps, keeps us hung up in polygamy, is we can’t bear to think our ancestors did something that wasn’t of God, right? We have to relearn that story. But I think that that same grace you can apply to our ancestors. They, most of them were doing the very best they could with what they were taught, with what they knew, with what they believed. And even with Brigham Young and those who promulgated it, right, we can apply that same grace to them and say they are in God’s hands. Well,
[1:37:07] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: we have to apply that grace to Abraham. We have to apply that grace to Jacob because
[1:37:11] Michelle: King David, I’m still trying
[1:37:13] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: to, well, King David. Uh, that one, that one for me, I don’t know. Well,
[1:37:18] Michelle: to me, Brigham Young and King David are, and, and King Noah. I’ve got they’re kind of, there’s a little category there that I’m trying to figure out, you know, there is.
[1:37:27] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: But look at how much good God did with David, because he loved him. And, and he, and he was the right man for the job, so to speak, even though According to the Book of Mormon, all of David’s wives were condemnable.
[1:37:45] Michelle: That was, well, that was and he was participating in the abominations of his right, Solomon, you know, so I think that’s what it is, is we need to stop. I think it’s the shame thing of there can’t be anything wrong. We, there can’t, we can’t let anyone think there’s anything wrong in our families, in our situations, or in our. Ancestors or in our church, right? And I think it’s so much healthier to just say, oh, we are repenting, and that was wrong, and we are striving to repent of it. That’s a much like you talked about the darkness and the weight versus the light. That’s a much higher vibration place to be.
[1:38:24] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: So absolutely.
[1:38:25] Michelle: Excellent. Thank you so much for joining us. And um is there a way if anyone wants to get in touch with you, should they just try to reach you in the comments or?
[1:38:35] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: Um, sure. I, um, if you want, you can, you can maybe put my email out and um it is mentoring for me at gmail.com. And, and they can reach out to me if they want. I know I’ve had a lot of people say things to me like, you know, you’re dumb for staying or you you’re now you’re just, you know, dismissing your entire heritage, all those things I’ve I’ve heard them all.
[1:38:59] Michelle: Oh, I guess we didn’t let you answer that question. Why have you stayed? Did you answer that? And well, I,
[1:39:04] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: I think, I think the biggest reason I’ve stayed is because the Lord has taught me from an early age that the church is not the people. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not the people, and the people are just people, and they’re flawed, and they make mistakes, and they have judgments and they have biases. And if you get close enough to the Lord, he will lead you. And if, if this is where you’ve been told to come. Why would you leave? Unless the Lord tells you to leave, why would you leave? I haven’t been told to leave. Um, in fact, I’ve been told to stay. When I, when I get on my knees and talk to heavenly Father about it, it’s like, you’re fine, just stay where you are. And it it it he hasn’t said, you know, and everything’s perfect, but he has said just stay.
[1:39:52] Michelle: There’s a real, there’s a real parallel there with your marriage, right? I have the same story that, like, who knows what blessings you would be abandoning by leaving your marriage or the church when the Lord has told you to stay. And so, and again, nobody can judge another person’s journey. So when you’re saying the people aren’t they ask what you’re talking about all the way up though, because that’s all the way up the chain. And you feel like God can, uh, tell me if I, you know, tell me if I’m getting this accurately. You feel like God absolutely is in this church, can be found in this church for those who feel inspired to find God in this church. So there’s no reason we need to leave.
[1:40:32] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: Right. Absolutely. Because you can go to any church and find the Lord, and you can go to any church and find a bunch of garbage. I, I believe there’s a lot of garbage in our church. I don’t think it’s infallible. I don’t think it’s even Completely Clean. And I don’t know how else to say that, but um, but that’s because it’s made up of people, and we aren’t completely good. We all have sinned, and I think there are some things that will eventually come out in the church that will shock and upset the masses. And when that happens, people are gonna have to decide, oh, were you worshiping the church of whoever happens to be the current prophet, or were you worshiping in the church of Jesus Christ, and you have to decide, cause I’m only following one guy. And that’s the guy that walked on the water. So everybody else, they can give me counsel, they can give me advice, and I will have to get my answer from the Lord. Right?
[1:41:36] Michelle: Right. So there’s so much beautiful counsel and teachings coming from our leaders. So, yeah. And, and I want to just clarify also, I do happen to believe that this church is The best way to find God, for me, absolutely. Like I think that we have. Well,
[1:41:55] Jacqueline Barlow Smith: the Book of Mormon is the is the fastest way to find the Lord ever. When you read that? You get closer to the Lord, then I think you could do doing anything else.
[1:42:06] Michelle: Right? And then you combine that with the church, which puts us in these opportunities and these, you know, like, it’s kind of like a family. It’s, it’s a, it’s it’s a really good place for spiritual development for those who are seeking it. So, so, OK, thanks for sharing that last question. And I wanna thank you for coming and talking to me. I wanna thank all of the audience. For joining us. I hope that you’ve found this discussion insightful. I think for me, the most profound thing is talking to someone who experienced that degree of betrayal and whose thoughts went to Emma. That to me was just, I hadn’t thought about it in quite that way. So I love everything you shared. And I think that for me is the cornerstone. I hope people will, you know, a big part of what I hope people will take from this is, would God. Intentionally do that or command that, right? And so, anyway, thank you, Jacqueline, and I’m sure I will talk to you again soon. Thank you, Michelle. Thank you again, all of you for sticking with us and a huge thank you to Jacquelyn and her husband for allowing us to hear and benefit from their experience and their story. I um hope that you will continue. We have a lot of future episodes planned that I think will be very inspiring. I’m excited to have some of my favorite past guests coming back. So, um, again, please feel free to support this podcast if you feel so inclined. The links are in the description box below, and I will see you next time.
