62: Sexual Health, Porn, and Polygamy w/ Sex Therapist Alisha Worthington | 132 Problems

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Links

Unitarian Church Sexual Values Circles
Alisha’s Practice
Email: Alisha@thehealinggroup.com

Transcript

[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon polygamy, where we explore the scriptural and theological case for plural marriage. I always recommend listening to these episodes in order, and this episode is a unique one. I am so excited to get into this topic, the topic of sexual health, talking about that in our communities and our experiences and kind of how it, it was has been affected by our heritage and polygamy. So this is something that I hope You will be willing to listen to and engage with. I think there is so much to talk about here. I’m, I’m talking to my good friend Alicia Worthington, who is a sex health, uh, the sex therapist, and, um, she’s a mental health worker who focuses on sexual health. She’s brilliant. I think we could talk again and again and again. So I’m hoping to talk about this topic more. I do want to give you a heads up that we talk about body parts and different things that if, um, anyone is uncomfortable having those things discussed. Just in front of their children, maybe consider not listening to this one in front of your children unless, unless you’ve listened to it first. But, um, I think there’s a lot of value here. So I hope that you will enjoy it. I would love to hear your comments and your feedback. I know that Alicia will be very engaged in answering questions. I just think that I’m, I’m glad we are taking the lid off of this topic because I think we have a lot of good to do in this area. So thank you so much for joining us as we take this deep dive into the murky waters of Mormon polygamy. Welcome to 132 Problems. I am, as always, so excited for this discussion. I am here with my good friend from years ago, Alicia Worthington. And I’ll give you a little bit of history and, um, Alicia and I actually were young homeschool moms together and she’s the one that I like had dreams of my son with your daughter and my son with your, you know, we had all of our kids lined up perfectly. So if we still were able to do arrange arranged marriages, our kids would all be. But it’s great. So anyway, Alicia and I have been, I moved, so we haven’t been in close contact for many years. And then I just started hearing, well, I will say that I’ve always been so amazingly impressed by Alicia because with 7 kids, she felt strongly inspired to go back to school. I remember. You going through this and going, what is this supposed to mean? How am I supposed to do this? And so as a homeschooling mom with 7 kids, Alicia has gone all the way through and become a clinical social worker, right? You did your bachelor’s and then your graduate work, and you are currently working full time as the provider for your family, carrying a full work week with the preparation she got for when her husband was in a situation where he was not able to provide. So watching that inspiration. Come to fruition in your life and watching your dedication to it and your hard work and raise these amazing kids. I just always have thought the world of Alicia. So thank you I wanted to invite Alicia on and we’ll talk a little bit more about her because I want, I want you to tell us about the book that you’ve written and about the work you do. But Alicia is a sex therapist in Utah among the Mormons primarily, and I think that this is some of the most important work that needs to be done in and for our society. So I was so excited I’m so excited to have Alicia here to talk to us about a sex therapist. People might think that means that you like train people and having. You know it might sound kinky, not kinky at all. So can you give us kind of an overview of what you do and then we’ll go back and talk a little bit more about your history, but give us an overview of what a sex therapist does, what that means.

[04:01] Alisha Worthington: Wow, to encapsulate it all, but I started out thinking I would probably be a more of a general type therapist, but what I started noticing is That the root of so many problems was either found in sexual trauma or in a current marriage, or lack of sex education, or all roads sort of led to sex and sexual health. And I realized that the gaps were just so huge in our culture regarding what healthy sexuality looks like and that marriages were failing and couples were Wanting desperately to try and solve this in their marriage without really having any resources. So sex therapy encompasses, it can encompass. Psychoeducation, like how this actually works, so sexual health. It can encompass intensive therapy around trauma, around um And how anxiety and depression or OCD or ADHD may be impacting sexual health, and so it It’s just the platform from which I operate and and heal from there if that makes sense.

[05:17] Michelle: OK, that actually helps a lot. So you, um, would it be accurate to say you are a therapist and you’re a you work with all kinds of people and, and, and you are also one of your so so you’re not limited to only sexual issues, but one of your specialties that you can really help with are things where people struggle with coming to full terms in healthy ways with their sexuality, so things like pornography or Um, attractions or even just insecurities, all and and all kinds of relationship issues often. Often, this, this discomfort with our sexuality can affect us in a million different ways that can show up in relationships and in just overall mental health.

[06:06] Alisha Worthington: Yeah. It’s sort of like, think of a family medicine doctor who can kind of do general things, but you may not talk to that family medicine doctor about your eye health. or about your something a little more specific, but or I let me actually give you, we can reverse this if you want to because it would be as if You might assume that if you went to a gynecologist, they could talk to you about sexual health. But they actually haven’t been trained in that. And so

[06:37] Michelle: therapists because that’s actually a mental health thing, not a gynecological gynecological issue. OK.

[06:44] Alisha Worthington: So most therapists will somewhat think they can talk about sex maybe because they’re having sex. But they actually haven’t been trained in it. And so to actually become trained in sex therapy, um, brings a greater depth, brings a greater, um, ability to work with the issues at hand and understand how it may, they may be impacting the person’s overall mental health.

[07:11] Michelle: OK, OK, so you’re sort of like a general practitioner who has gone on and added a specialist training. So you’re a general practitioner of mental health who’s gone on to receive training in the specialization of sexual health. OK and. So, um, what other than inspiration, because I remember you talking about this and me not fully understanding, you know, when we were young, young moms, um, what led you to, you said that you started to notice this, but what led you to start thinking about it that way or to choose this specialization or think there’s a need for it?

[07:51] Alisha Worthington: Um. That’s a great question. Now, I had, so as a young mom, when I was first married, we lived in upstate New York. And I must have, I must have already had at that point therapist written across my forehead because people just talked to me. And what I began noticing was People were opening up about the relationship issues and sexual issues. And by that point, I had already started my undergrad in social work, um, and I had a great mentor, Tom Harrison, who is the co-author on the book I eventually helped write, um, and his specialty, he had been working for 30 years in sexual health. He had worked with sexual abuse victims, primarily children, and, um, through talking with him, noticing these conversations, he and I both Began to discuss, like, why isn’t this knowledge disseminated more? Why are all these couples and individuals suffering in silence? And then, um, my sister, my little sister, Kristen Hodson, who had by that time also become a social worker, um, was noticing the same things. And so between the three of us, We decided to write a book about it. And so we took all the conversations the three of us had been having. And just wrote what we felt like we hoped that it would get LDS couples talking. Like, here is some information. Here are some questions you can ask each other that you might not have asked each other before. And here’s some actual information, because the other thing we noticed is that there are a lot of books in our culture that talk around it. Like, it should be bonding, it should be, you should have a good time, but nobody says. How you actually achieve that. We kind of leave couples to figure that out for themselves. And then also tell them not to, like, don’t ask any questions, don’t seek for resources, but figure this out on your own. And we set couples up for failure. And so the, the, the goal of the book was to help couples get talking. Um, and then what happens if you write a book is then suddenly people think you’re an expert. And so people begin contacting me to say, OK, I read your book, and I would like some help. And so I began Um, coaching people at that point just through more like practical tips, actually, understanding their anatomy, understanding their spouse’s anatomy, understanding what happens, like how to avoid sexual pain, um, all the things that maybe you think you just have to live with. Um, and then, because I had all those children, then it was, I was, I felt like I was going about it sort of backwards. Like I had my children, and now I’m gonna start doing this, and now I’ll go to graduate school, but it worked out, I think, so beautifully because I had, I felt like I brought my life experience, um, as a mother, as raising children, as a spouse of many years and Working through this with my own husband and learning, and so by the time I finished graduate school, and then also my additional trainings was like getting another master’s degree through, it’s through AEC which stands for the American Association of Sex Educators, Counselors, and Therapists. Um, by the time I finished all of that and was ready to step fully here, then I was ready to not only provide coaching, which I still do, or psychoeducation, also the therapy piece. Um, and I just really love, love working with people in this area.

[11:38] Michelle: What an amazing story. That is, OK, that’s fabulous. Tell us. I have so many directions I want to go. So this, this, I, I told Alicia this will probably be a two part, um, a two episode discussion because there are so many things I want to talk about. First though, tell us the name of your book. Um,

[11:55] Alisha Worthington: it’s real intimacy and it was published through Cedar 4. It was published in 2012. What what was funny is both my sister and I had nursing babies at the time and so we would Nurse and then like, OK, let’s rewrite a chapter and um but it also just both of us just felt like we got downloaded information. It was just, here it is, here it is, um, so that, yeah, real intimacy. Tom Harris and Kristen Hodson and I are the authors of that, um, and then after that, We were on the X96 for a little while taking questions. They dubbed us the sex girls. It’s funny. My kids were kind of embarrased

[12:36] Michelle: means so many things I know.

[12:39] Alisha Worthington: No,

[12:43] Michelle: yeah, um, I just have to, I have to like give the um feminine thought that comes to my mind. I just love how you were, where they call it knack nursing at keyboard, you know, you have all the typos because you’re typing while propping the baby and nursing, but I love how like there really is a similarity there how the download comes into your mind. It’s like just like your milk comes in, the ideas come in and have to. Come out to nourish just the same way like that is actually a really profound. Um, you know, a profound thing to have happen. I love that. All happening together. It was really your life mission is, is in that close of alignment, you know, right. And as far as I know that this is something we might talk about later, but can I just say how much I love that you inverted the model? I really, I always want to encourage young men and young women like invert the model. Don’t put off children until you have your degree and your career because there’s never a good time to step aside. And then you’re gonna be messing with super expensive and super inefficient fertility clinics. Have your baby, have your babies while you have energy, while you are have fertility, you know, raise your children and then start your career. And it’s so graceful that way. I mean, it’s always a challenge, but it’s so, I think that that is a beautiful model to follow. I love the way you did it.

[14:04] Alisha Worthington: I think I didn’t realize, and I, I, I don’t know if you can. I’m just gonna speak now as the old woman in the room, but I didn’t realize that going to graduate school in my 40s, was so much easier. I was ready to just really be a student, but also have so much time to have a full career. I didn’t, there wasn’t a need. I think we feel this need to like build everything in our twenties. Gotta have our kids, build your career, go to school, build, build, build, build all at the same time. And I love what you’re saying. It doesn’t have to be that way. And you have more time than you.

[14:38] Michelle: I, I do, I feel like as a young mom, you know, having a baby at 22, I was, I just, I had him a week after I turned 22 and I. Like getting to love your babies and have all of that energy and you know that’s what you’re perfectly designed to do at that age. And then at this age, having the wisdom that I have and the life experience like you mentioned, like I love the thought of going to graduate school in my 40s instead of in my 20s and trying to, you know, I think, yeah, so any, any young moms or young, any young men or young women out there like really think about that. My mom did the same thing, had her 9 children. Then started her music career and was fantastically successful. It’s just such a good way to go that I advocate it highly, and we have a longer life expectancy and women have a longer life expectancy too. So even if you, not everyone has even like not everyone has 7 children, definitely not everyone has 13 children. People can start their careers a lot earlier than even you and I did.

[15:37] Alisha Worthington: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and still have plenty of time.

[15:40] Michelle: Plenty of time, yeah, so I think it’s, I love the exact that’s part of why I was so excited to talk to you too because I’m like, oh my gosh, you are exactly the role model that I think we should, you know, that I wish more of our society knew existed, that knew that this was an option. So, um, so anyway, can you imagine having your career that you have now and trying to have a baby with your whole, like, wouldn’t it be so much harder than how

[16:04] Alisha Worthington: you did much harder? Yeah. And I do have to send a shout out to my husband who was willing, who has switched places and has stepped into full-time fatherhood. Yeah, uh-huh, with our 4 kids who are still at home and he’s doing the thing and I get to go home and eat dinner. I I love it.

[16:25] Michelle: I, that’s beautiful. Big huge shout out to Brett. That’s great. He’s a great guy. So, OK, so we covered that part of it. Um, there was, this is what I want to ask you, with your book and with your practice, I think a lot of people listening will be like, oh, my ears are perked up. I need to hear this. A lot of people who haven’t struggled in their sex life might be like, what are they even talking about? You know, but I think that um. I, I kind of want to understand maybe there’s an assumption that sex doesn’t necessarily need to be satisfying, that it should be somewhat uncomfortable, that we should just talk around it, that, you know, and, and it seems to me that you had the assumption that both men and women should have fulfilling sex lives that are really a high point. Of their mortal experience that are free from shame, free from any sort of discomfort or trauma or obligation or, you know, that it should be one of the best parts of your life and one of the best parts of your relationship as a couple. Is that and and if it’s not. Then something can be helped to make it. It is because that’s why God gave us sex. That’s one of the reasons God gave us sex. And I, I’m putting words in your mouth, but that would be my

[17:45] Alisha Worthington: absolutely. OK, I hope I can say all these words, but for example, the clitoris. There’s no medical reason for the clitoris. And if you’re listening and you’re not even sure what that is, I invite you to be gentle with yourself and have compassion for the fact that you don’t know this word, because who would have taught you this word? Nobody. So it’s OK. Um, but the, the clitoris is part of the female genitalia that has no medical reason to exist except for pleasure. And so if that that indicates to me that God is very Interested, OK with, wanting, hoping for his daughters, their daughters to have A wonderful experience, a pleasurable experience for the sake of pleasure, for the sake of feeling good, but it is OK. There’s no reason that it has nothing to do with procreation. Um, All of the good stuff on a woman’s body is on the outside, all the nerves, all the really wonderful nerves. A woman can have a bait without ever experiencing pleasure per se. Why? Why would there be anything extra? It could have our bodies designed differently.

[19:00] Michelle: As it does kind of make me think though about like just as you’re talking, I’m I’m hearing the words joy and rejoicing that they might multiply and replenish that they might have joy and rejoicing. I actually think the means of multiplying and replenishing is included in that joy and rejoicing. Sex should be something that is one of the purposes of our joy and rejoicing or one of the means. Of our joy, like it it all is lumped in. It’s not just that we have a baby, it’s that we get to have a healthy, wonderful, fulfilling, awesome sex life that we look forward to.

[19:35] Alisha Worthington: You get to multiply

[19:36] Michelle: your icing.

[19:37] Alisha Worthington: You get to replenish yourself, replenish your experience, not just replenish the earth, but replenish yourself, replenish your spouse, replenish your marriage.

[19:47] Michelle: And so, and I love, OK, so there are so many things. I, I’m sorry if anyone in the audience is uncomfortable. Maybe I’ll put, well, the title that we choose for the video will probably help people understand what we’re getting into. But I think again, for a lot of people this is like, why is this even need to be talked about where we’re fine for a lot of people they’re like, what are they talking about, you know, and I think there are some people that are like, Wait, really? What, you know, one of the things I love. If you just throwing out the words is I think that removing the shame from this topic and the secrecy is essential. That’s how I’ve really tried to talk. It took me a while to get there to where I could talk to my kids with just like With with joy and awe and comfort intentionally, right? But I do have this question and I was gonna ask this later on, a little later on, but I’m, I’m here now so I want to ask your opinion on this. I, I can see the um forces that are in opposition and maybe necessarily so. I do strongly believe in the law of chastity and the beauty of of um abstinence and of keeping the gifts God has given us within the bounds that God has set. I’m a big believer in that. And so how do we on the one hand, keep sex sacred? And, um, well, sacred, I guess, and not let it become profane and commonplace, but on the same time, let it be let it, let us be comfortable and sort of natural to talk about where, so how can we keep it sacred without shame, right? And can we make it comfortable without making it commonplace and just nothing special about it?

[21:31] Alisha Worthington: Yes, I believe we can, and I, I feel like it starts, OK. When your baby is born, well, first of all, let me back up and say, since the economy changed in the 80s and we’re not really based in factories, things like that, uh, the service sector has taken over. The dynamics of marriage have changed, especially once women went back into the work. Marriage is really no longer a financial obligation. Women can earn money if they need to. So marriage now is based on physical and emotional connections. And we are not preparing our young kids or couples for that knowledge. Like this is where you’re gonna have to put your work. It’s not going to be, I mean, you may, you may end up feeling like financially obligated or, OK, we have these kids, let’s stay together. But the divorce rate is still really high and it’s still really high in the church. And it’s mostly based on dissatisfaction still in the sexual relationship or with the emotional connection. So we have to start there. And the way that we start there is from the very beginning, when you have a baby and you are nuzzling that baby and kissing that baby, you’re already teaching that baby about what it feels like to have a body. It feels good and warm and to have somebody interact with it. So you’re already in some ways, doing sex education. You’re teaching them about safe touch, warm touch, nurturing touch. Then that child grows up

[22:54] Michelle: endorphins connection, all of those that are released through touch and

[23:00] Alisha Worthington: so then the, the little kid starts to grow and we start teaching on their body parts, right? And head, shoulders, knees, toes. It’s interesting though, right about there. We say different things to little boys and little girls. Little boys will find out their penis, mostly because they’re like they can grab it, you know, and we maybe people will say a funny name for it, but they are at least acknowledging it exists. Little girls, we skip. We skip the vulva. We, we just skip it all together. We don’t really teach. Right there, we’re beginning to teach our little kids, 00, there’s something maybe secret about my body or something I’m not, if they come in.

[23:45] Michelle: Can I, can I make a comparison? I, I’m sorry, I’m trying not to interrupt. I’m such an interrupter, but I just am finding this comparison. I feel like one of the reasons Alicia is here, we will get to it is to talk about polygamy and how we are still living out our generational trauma, but I just keep seeing connections because one of the things that our culture does, that polygamy does and you know, is to teach us not to see women. So even so it’s. Teaching us to be invisible, and this is just another means of it, that woman is invisible and we could just say like, oh labia, that’s the name for a girl’s external parts that you can see like boy, yep, that’s your penis, yep, that’s your labia, yeah, like like right done. That that could solve that right there. And I hope that we’re to the point that it isn’t a lot more like don’t touch, don’t touch like like are we doing, are people still doing that to little boys or is that gone? No,

[24:35] Alisha Worthington: we’re still doing that because I think so what what I’ve seen what happens is. People see their little, their children touching themselves and they feel uncomfortable because suddenly it’s like, oh, that’s like sexual or something. Those little kids are not having sexual thoughts at all. No, those little kids are discovering that there’s a place on their body that’s like, what’s this? What, what’s this? I can stick my finger’s

[24:59] Michelle: like they’re playing with their toes. It’s just like playing with their toes.

[25:02] Alisha Worthington: Exactly. OK. So it’s, it’s usually our stuff, our old stuff that we haven’t worked through that gets in the way of. Sitting with our children and as they’re learning about their bodies. And so I encourage people, people will say, I feel so uncomfortable. I’m like, that’s OK. You can be uncomfortable because it’s your own stuff. Put on your mom face. And she’s like, yeah, there’s your labia, and just pretend like you are OK saying it. They won’t know the difference. And pretty soon you’ll get more comfortable. OK,

[25:30] Michelle: and when people are having that reaction, that’s their sign that they, that that’s why you exist. Like that’s what you’re speaking to.

[25:37] Alisha Worthington: OK,

[25:38] Michelle: sorry.

[25:39] Alisha Worthington: So then their children start to grow up and inevitably they start asking questions, you know, if you have another baby or they see it, you know, how did a baby, how’s the baby there and What we have done for a long time is we have our special conversation when they’re 8, right? Take them out to dinner and we say, here’s how sex works, and then we don’t talk about it again. So it kind of teaches them, oh, I guess I only can talk about this at dinner with you one time. As opposed to,

[26:10] Michelle: or they think, oh, that really weird thing happened.

[26:13] Alisha Worthington: And

[26:13] Michelle: I never wanted for them to be so uncomfortable. OK.

[26:17] Alisha Worthington: So I encourage parents to just, if a child comes up, if you’re in the car and someone asks a question, answer it right there. You don’t, and if you’re not, if you don’t know the answer yet, so, oh, you know what, that’s such a great question. I’ll get back to you later tonight and then follow up. You can give them very simple answers, but what you begin to teach them is they can ask you about a body part as easily as they can ask you why the sky is blue. And so then you begin to teach them that they can come to you with their questions, and you are not uncomfortable, you are not afraid, you’ve got them. And so, and then I try and tell parents you are their health teacher. You’ve already been teaching them how to brush their teeth. How to wipe their butt. So their sexuality is just part of taking care of your own body, learning about your own body. So it’s just part of you being their health teacher. And so you can answer their questions from that place like, all right, I’m your health teacher. This is part of your health. There is a, and I can send you a link to this. Um, actually, the Unitarian Church has put out a really wonderful visual. It’s called the Sexual Values Circles, and in the center, it kind of looks like a a flower. In the center of it, it says values, and you get to teach your children from your values. But all it is is kind of a comprehensive list of different things that you may want to go over as your child ages. And I like to put that on the fridge and just let my kids look at it and be like, What’s that when they’re ready?

[27:55] Michelle: Just like an alphabet chart. I always had an alphabet chart hanging on the wall or a cow says moo and a like, OK, I mean, it’s just, it’s just part of their learning. Yes,

[28:04] Alisha Worthington: about

[28:04] Michelle: this beautiful world that God created for us and our beautiful bodies that God created.

[28:09] Alisha Worthington: And if you, it’s more important than ever because now that kids have access to the internet. Parents have to understand that kids are going to learn about this one way or the other, and If you think that they’re not gonna have access to certain information or questions, you are wrong. And I want, I want parents to be able to feel empowered to actually, hey, I wanna teach my child this from my values, give them my information so that then when they hear stuff out in the world, they already have a comparison. They already know like, oh no, my mom told me this, that’s wrong. Um, for example, My daughter came home from high school one time and she said, Mom. Is it true that masturbation causes baldness? I was like, what? What did you hear that? And she said, I was just, I was just walking in the halls, and I heard these guys saying that. I said, OK, let’s see. Are you telling me that every person out there who’s bald would have a problem with masturbation?

[29:16] Michelle: And everyone who’s not bald never.

[29:18] Alisha Worthington: Right. Yeah. And she’s like, no, that, that wouldn’t be it. Like, right. But that was an off the cuff question. She came home and asked me, and, oh, I forgot to say, she asked me that question. I paused for a minute because I was at the kitchen sink, and she said, Never mind, I’ll just go look it up. I’m like, No, you will not look that question up. I will answer that question right now. Yeah. And so as uncomfortable as a parent might be, you want to be the person that they’re coming to for the questions. And so getting more comfortable, you have to go in the bathroom and just give yourself a list of words and practice them over and over again until you feel more comfortable saying them, OK. But also research shows that when you give children the proper words for their body parts, they’re less likely to experience sexual abuse. Predators look for predators look for children who do not, who don’t have education because if it go ahead.

[30:18] Michelle: Oh no, no, that, no, go ahead and finish. Oh

[30:20] Alisha Worthington: then

[30:20] Michelle: I’ll

[30:21] Alisha Worthington: children who know the words. also are able to tell their parents. Because children who don’t know the words aren’t able they can say, somebody gave me a special hug today. OK, somebody gave you a special hug. Somebody wanted to, somebody wanted to, he, he tried to touch my penis. OK, I know what that means.

[30:44] Michelle: Right. Right. And it makes, OK, I’m also thinking that it’s even more than just knowing the words. It’s being in an environment where where you have been taught the words, where those things can be talked about, where because a child that doesn’t even have a word for their penis wouldn’t even have a way to think about what happened. They would just be so confused and so if we can empower them. Can I tell you, so years ago, because I’m always wanting to write books, you know, and I always have these ideas, but I did want to write a book on like talking to your kids about sex and sort of if I had to sum up what I think I couldn’t find the books that I wanted because they’re either purely mechanical or they’re trying to be silly, you know, and I, I want to come from a place of. Ah and gratitude and love and joy and rejoicing. Like God loves us so much and this is like a woman has a uterus and every month it fills up with blood, wondering if it’s, you know, it gets ready just in case there’s a baby that’s going to and You know, and these things feel so good, and Dad, and I love having sex. It feels so good. I’m so thankful for that part of my life and being able to really set like create a sense of expectation and anticipation with patience, hopefully, you know, because I also talk about how glad I am that and and I don’t want anyone who has walked a different path or who doesn’t believe these things to feel shame or just, you know, this is my. The story and with my values that are in the middle of my flower, you know, but, but to be able to also talk to them about Dad and I are so thankful that we were taught these things and that we get to share this experience and and now we’re in such a scary time where. You can be accused of rape, you can be raped, you can be, you know, like, like it’s just so much. It just makes things so nice to keep sex within marriage for a million different ways. But then also, yeah, to really talk about like, like the first time I said to one of my daughters, I love having sex with your dad, that actually felt like a really good thing to say. It felt really healthy to me. Does that make sense? Like to take away shame and let it just be. This beautiful part of what God has given us.

[33:09] Alisha Worthington: And you’re also giving them a reason to become an adult, right? Another reason is one of our homeschool things of like, how do we help them become adults and transit like, here is something else you get to do with you like when you’re an adult and married, you get to do this, and it’s amazing, right? And it’s OK that you think it’s gross right now because when I was 9, I thought it was gross too, you know, right?

[33:32] Michelle: Well, because it’s not for you. It’s not, it’s not a child thing. Like that’s good. It’s good that this sounds really weird to you, but also doing taxes sounds really weird to you, right? Like there are like you’re supposed to be making mud pies and playing Minecraft. That’s perfect for you right now. And then someday those things won’t be as interesting and these things will, and that’s perfect.

[33:57] Alisha Worthington: And I get people will say, but if I teach them, they’re just gonna go out and do it, right? If I give them this information. And, uh, will there be some kids who still do? Yeah. But would they have probably anyway? Mhm. And I would rather that my children come from a place of empowerment and understanding so that they are are I, I’ve had several of my daughters say, You took away our rebellion. All like the, the kids our age, they’re engaging and stuff because it’s like rebellious and since they don’t know anything about it, and my daughter said, We know so much about it that we don’t want to right now. We don’t want to, we don’t want it to be risky. We don’t want to do these things because it’s, it’s, we know to like, we know the consequences. We know what this means. And so they’re like,

[34:50] Michelle: don’t have a reason to. We don’t need to go. Go in that dark mysterious corner that we’re not allowed to peek in or talk about. So, OK, so, so the number one step I’m I’m thinking this portion of our discussion is kind of let’s talk a little more about how to raise children with the healthiest perspective, you know, to give them. The best chance to have a healthy relationship with sex and their sexuality, right? And so it sounds to me like ideally we can develop that in ourselves first. I, you know, I’ve always loved, you can’t teach what you don’t have. You can’t give what you, you know, like you teach what you are, no matter, no matter what. So step number one is start working on your own sex, your own relationship with sex and sexuality. And I think wrapped up in that. Like shame is a huge thing we have to talk about because embarrassment, all of it kind of like a lot of, a lot of that sort of circles around shame. There’s some deep shame underneath that that I want to talk about and then some other things as well. I guess fear is maybe another one and I think that that. So that’s what is in that dark corner of mystery of things we don’t talk about. And that’s the worst, worst way to, that’s the worst thing to have in your house, like open that closet, let it be there because you’re like, I think that that shame and fear and like you said. Rebellion leads to way more infinitely more problems than open discussion and awareness. Yes, it’s the same thing as like never talk to your kids about drugs because they might do them.

[36:29] Alisha Worthington: Right, right, right. Exactly. And we, we hear that and we think, well, that’s dumb, of course we wouldn’t do that. Are there kids who will hear about drugs and still choose to do drugs? Yeah, they will for other underlying reasons. It won’t be because they didn’t, they weren’t taught there, there’s probably anxiety, trauma, something that is is leading to that. Um, and so most of the time, but the

[36:53] Michelle: best thing, go ahead, sorry. No,

[36:57] Alisha Worthington: it’s OK.

[36:58] Michelle: But the best thing you can do as a parent is to, yeah, to teach them. These are, these are the consequences of drugs. These are some things that really happen. And if you’re feeling these ways, these are some other options of how you can manage those. in ways that don’t have the same kind of negative consequences. So so we can warn our children in healthy ways and empower them and most important of all, I think open the lines of communication where they can come and say, Mom. You know, so and so and so and so had drugs today and I really felt left out and they made fun of me and you know, like, like, and I really was curious and and either I chose to do it or I chose, you know what like even if they were like, and so, so I, you know, I smoked marijuana with them and, and, and you can have that conversation about OK, how does that like, like I want to remove shame. So that we can let our children talk to us about their actual experiences because I think that relationship is the best thing we can give our kids and the best chance we can give them to. Yeah, go ahead.

[38:10] Alisha Worthington: You, you want them coming to you. And it’s, it’s what I tell parents though is you’re gonna hear a lot of uncomfortable things, things that inside you’re like, oh my gosh, I don’t know how to deal with this, or I, I didn’t know that was gonna happen. All that’s gonna go on inside and you just put on your poker face. You’re like, wow, I’m so glad you told me this. Let’s talk about this. Let me embrace you with love because you are their parent and they are coming to you for safety. Children look to adults. It’s like a biological, it’s a biological thing with parents or with adults. If there is danger, the child will look to the nearest adult, and they don’t stop doing that just because as teenagers, they have big words. Doesn’t mean they’re not looking to you. And even if they say they roll their eyes at what you say, they’re still looking to you, and they need you to be engaged and to help contain them.

[39:04] Michelle: Oh, that is so, I, I’m so aware of this. That was part of my struggle with masks even is like, even like a toddler when they fall, they look for your reaction to know how bad it hurt them even, you know, like how, how bad is this? And, and that goes all the way up. So when our kids are talking to us, I, I am a huge believer in a parent as a parent in um prayer in the moment. I, I mean all the time like when your kid is saying something and you’re feeling that discomfort. Like starting the habit of Lord, please give me your words. Lord, please give me your wisdom and help me to show up for this child in a way that will be the best for, you know, because we get in the way and you know, so often it’s, it is, it’s us reacting to our own stuff that keeps us from being able to show up for our child and and then we create all that stuff in them, you know, we could really, so, so I do think that I love that to be like. Because when we react we’re showing them I don’t trust you. I don’t this, this is too scary this is too big, this is too bad, you should be shamed you should, you should be ashamed. You should be fearful, you know, whereas if we, if we can be in communion with the Lord and inspired and be able to stay at peace because really that’s what the Holy Ghost is like the the the spirit is peace. So if you can just say, please bless me with your spirit right now so I can be in peace, that teaches them, you’ve got this, you’re big enough, you’re powerful. I trust you. You’re smart, you’re good, you know, I’m here for you and you can rely on me. That is a whole different message that is so important.

[40:45] Alisha Worthington: Yes, yes. And I want to, I also want to like say that about, oh my gosh, the importance of repair. Because then some parents can be like, oh my gosh, I didn’t do this or I handled this poorly or whatever. It’s OK, because repair is amazing in relationships because they are gonna have to do that in their marital relationship again and again and again. So to begin to model for them going back and being like, you know what? I didn’t handle that. You came to me. I didn’t handle that really well. I apologize. I would like to try again. That’s it like, can we do that again? And then it teaches them how to step into a relationship. It teaches them that you’re still learning. It teaches them that they are important enough that you thought about that interaction and came back. It models for them what they are going to need to have the rest of their adult life as well is repair.

[41:42] Michelle: I’m so glad you brought that up. That is like the embodiment of the gospel, the atonement, repentance. You are modeling for them the entire purpose of this life and the purpose of this life isn’t to live so that we don’t need a savior, so that we have. need of repentance, right? The purpose of this life is to keep turning and in some ways that can even do more good. I mean, we don’t want to mess up, but repair when your children see you, experience you saying Hey, I’m really sorry. You can send all of those initial messages plus all of those additional messages, plus teach them messing up is OK. You can repair. And who’s the, I can’t think of the marriage counselors, the man and wife that showed that marriages that stay together are not actually ones that have the least conflict. They’re the ones that have the most repairs, Julie, yes. You, I knew you would know because you’re a therapist, so when my brain loses it, yours won’t. But, but that is an amazing thing that marriages that repair are the ones that stay together, and I’m going to add to that probably also the ones that have a great kick butt sex life. That probably is it like I think that is a massive anchor to a marriage and it should be, that’s what it’s designed to be. So it should be like. Maybe the thing that keeps you together, like kind of your covenants and your amazing sex life help you deal with all of this other stuff, ideally, that’s kind of how it would be, right?

[43:16] Alisha Worthington: Yeah. So if we could, so go into how do we do this with the law of chastity. Then it’s also preparing, occasionally I get to sit with engaged couples, and I think I really disappoint the young man, because one of the things I talk about is I encourage them almost like, please don’t have sex on your honeymoon unless you’re ready, unless you think you’re ready. Please don’t. Please don’t have sex that first night. Please don’t. Just because now you’re married, the gates are open. It’s like opening the pasture or something like. If you open the pasture and a horse has been corralled for a while, you open those doors and the horse doesn’t just go charging out, maybe sometimes, but really it’s like Is the door open? What’s out here? But you’ve gotten married, the doors are open. Now take time. Now take time to let your relationship develop as it as it naturally will kiss, take out, get to know each other’s nakedness and bodies before you try and interact in like a passionate explosive way. Learn about this. Learn together, because this is now first major skill you get to learn together. And you get to learn to talk about it together and you get to go, wait, what is that on your body? I have not seen that in person, and that’s a little overwhelming. And to be curious and to just that if you can let it grow and develop and learn this together naturally. You will set yourself up for a foundation of trust, communication, repair, patience, and great sex. I work with too many couples who are trying to recover from their honeys. And, OK, yeah, because they were so unprepared.

[45:08] Michelle: OK, that’s so interesting. So that’s really good to know. Uh, it also builds a foundation of selflessness of caring, put the other one above yourself and in in this intimate part of your life. And so that’s so interesting. I’ve never even heard that before or thought about it, so. If a couple is completely ready and you know, I guess it’s mostly her, it’s mostly going at her pace,

[45:35] Alisha Worthington: yes, women are, I think women are far less educated about their own bodies and their own sexuality. Then the young men, the young men have at least had wet dreams.

[45:47] Michelle: Well, for a million reasons, yeah, right, right,

[45:50] Alisha Worthington: and they understand about an erection. The external versus

[45:52] Michelle: internal is a huge

[45:58] Alisha Worthington: and so that’s why it’s so disappointing to him in a way because he’s like, I’m ready and she is not. And she you know what.

[46:07] Michelle: That’s that I’m glad you said that because actually he might say I’m ready, but that actually shows he’s not because it’s not his sex life. It’s their sex life and him taking time gets him more ready to have the best possible sex life with her. That’s right. Like, OK, that’s really interesting. What great advice. So that’s really good counsel also for parents to give their children instead of, I hate the like my mom. My poor mom, the night before her wedding, she tells us better than I do and I can’t remember the details, but the night before her wedding, her mom was too embarrassed to talk to her. So she basically was like, your dad’s going to talk to you and her dad and her dad was like, do you have any questions? That was like and and that was before there were there was any internet or books or do you know what I mean? And so, so when we, I can hear what you’re saying about like. Here’s this new present. Unwrap it slowly. That’s really sexy. Do you know what I mean? Like, like rather than here I’m throwing you in the deep end of this pool, let’s wade in together and because we’re really ready to get

[47:22] Alisha Worthington: Typically what I find is on a honeymoon. He has a great experience because his body is, he knows what to do more, it’s fairly straightforward, and she has an experience that’s like, that was it. It, maybe it’s uncomfortable or maybe painful. She doesn’t know how to say that. Like, I think, is it supposed to be painful? Maybe, I don’t know. Maybe she says that, but then she has no way to

[47:51] Michelle: then what’s wrong with

[47:52] Alisha Worthington: it?

[47:52] Michelle: What’s wrong with me,

[47:54] Alisha Worthington: right? Right. And then she also, because she loves him. wants him to think, oh no, no, it’s, it’s good, it’s OK, it’s it it’ll get better and then because they don’t know what to do. This this pattern continues, and over time, because these husbands actually do love their wives, then over time he starts to notice, not great for her. He actually doesn’t, he wants to help and he doesn’t know how. And he doesn’t want to use her anymore because he starts to feel like he’s using her, and she has moved into a pattern of more like Beauty type sex, like this is OK, maybe this isn’t great for me. I’ll just have sex for you. Well, that’s not great for him either. And that is the majority of the patterns I see coming into my office is that has built up over time. They don’t know how to talk about it. Maybe they’ve had 3 or 4 kids, but now those kids are getting older and now it is just the two of them. It really is back to the two of them, and they have got to figure this out, or they can feel their marriage going like this. And so that’s why it, it often goes back to the honeymoon cause when I say that like his, his experience was probably great and yours was, and she’ll go. Not great, and I didn’t know how to say that, and I didn’t know how it was supposed to be.

[49:18] Michelle: I can see all the ways that that would erode a relationship because, well, first of all, you’re missing that central point that should be the high point. It’s the gift that God gave us, right? And um God wants us to have an amazing, fantastic, like rejoicing, fulfilling sex life, right? God gave us that. And, um, and so, and when she gets into a pattern of not saying things, and he like the resentment that builds up and you both make You’re not actually like I guess you’re kind of. Trying to make the other person’s problem your problem in a way, but not like I can just see how that would build up resentment on both sides. It would go into so many other areas of the relationship.

[50:07] Alisha Worthington: Yes. And that’s why I do sex, because I feel like sex is the microcosm. When I can talk to a couple about their sex, their individual sexuality and their sexual relationship, it shows that they realize how much it’s showing up in all the other aspects of their relationship. And so instead of starting out here, I go to the core. Let’s start here. This is the core of your life.

[50:31] Michelle: So, OK, it sounded so bizarre and radical when you said don’t have sex on your honeymoon. You know, I’m sure I’m not the only one that was like, what are you talking about? We’re Mormon. We’ll be, we’ve been waiting for the honeymoon our whole life, you know, but what you’re saying is like. Both of you, like it’s so easy to hear the words. Both of you need to learn how each other’s bodies work. It it’s so much deeper than that because in that process, you are learning to communicate about the most sensitive sacred. There’s vulnerable things. If you can communicate about that, how much does that empower you in the rest of your relationship if you can. Learn to read each other’s subtle signals and pay attention and be tuned in and like there is so much power in that that I’d never even thought of. You’re blowing my mind. Like that is, no, seriously, that is profound to to just think of sex as sort of this tool, this vehicle to really come to know each other on. In every way, how do you communicate? How do you show, you know, emotionally, like verbal, like in every possible way to come to know each other so much better to truly be one,

[51:47] Alisha Worthington: right? Yes, yes, and female sexuality is based on safety and security. Feeling safe secure and so If you can, if if an atmosphere is created. Where there is safety and security, I feel safe to talk to you about something. I feel safe to engage with your body. I feel safe for you to engage with my body. I feel secure that if I say something isn’t working right, or that kind of hurt, or that you are gonna understand me and you are gonna work with me because we’ve already been developing this. When a, when a woman feels safe and secure, is much more interested in sex.

[52:30] Michelle: And OK, and can have a much better sexual experience. Like, husbands, if you want your wives to really like sex, focus on, and that doesn’t mean safety and secure in terms of like put rose petals out like it can’t be about sex. It has to be safety and security in the relationship in life that is exactly it.

[52:56] Alisha Worthington: And so, oh go ahead.

[52:58] Michelle: No, I

[52:58] Alisha Worthington: forever and ever and ever, so just go ahead, we can move on.

[53:02] Michelle: Well, I wanted you to finish that thought, so

[53:05] Alisha Worthington: mm.

[53:06] Michelle: It sounds like you had something else to add to that that I think is important.

[53:10] Alisha Worthington: Just the idea that um what was that not gonna be? Um, It’s gone. I guess what it is, here it is. I sometimes I work with men to understand that it is extremely masculine. To step into that, like, I can hold safety and security in this space because that’s like masculine energy. It’s containing, it’s strong, it builds and moves forward, but it’s, it’s kind of containing feminine energy is more like this. And Often what I see is that it gets reversed in a sexual relationship. His feminine energy comes out and it’s like, but I want this, and I want, he doesn’t know how to like contain himself and sometimes is just being led by his body and is looking for to her to kind of soothe that need in him. And she’s having to be in her masculine energy, which is containing that has to be the gatekeeper. Not right now. I don’t think I can do that. I’m not sure, like it’s it’s,

[54:19] Michelle: yes, I will, I will do it for you. And

[54:21] Alisha Worthington: yes, yes. And I, I work with men on like, we need to reverse that so that you can hold this masculine space so that she can flow into you, so that she can come and And be in the space with you and it, it helps give them, I, I think we have taught men incorrectly about sexuality and masculinity. It’s not, it’s not what they think it is because we’ve told them, you’re like a masculine out of control person. Like that masculinity means you’re an out of control sex monster. No, it, it doesn’t actually, and the women don’t need to be the gatekeeper for you. You, I, I don’t like thinking of my sons like that. My sons are not out of control sex monster. Same,

[55:07] Michelle: right,

[55:08] Alisha Worthington: they are wonderful people.

[55:10] Michelle: I think that this gives this is a whole new aspect, but I think the best one of the family proclamation that the husband is to protect and provide and what that means is protect that space, make your wife feel so safe and secure that she’s never going to be pushed, she’s never going to be coaxed or made to guilt tripped or, you know. If, if like if anything maybe a husband, if it’s a struggle, it could be like a honey, I love having sex with you. I want to have sex with you as much as possible. What can I do to make you want to have sex with me? And maybe that’s too aggressive or too forward. I’m just thinking there have to be ways to talk about it. To really have that protected space be there so that because I think that is true that a woman can flow in it like I’m doing the kids right now. I’m doing like like like sometimes when your husband comes at the wrong time, it’s like don’t because I love you and I love sex, but this isn’t the context, you know, and, and being able, I I would hope that I, I mean I hope that I wouldn’t do it. That way, but I’m just thinking of that energy that sometimes is there. And if there’s a way to not take offense, not give, be able to really understand the dynamics without, because that’s one of the hardest things about sex is getting your feelings hurt on either side and then you add to it all of that. feelings on top of just trying to be sexual. It just gets complicated

[56:46] Alisha Worthington: because we’ve decided that sex is supposed to be magic. And it’s supposed to like work like it does in the movies. And again, if you actually provide education and teach people that this is a skill, sex is a skill. I, I figured this out when I was trying to breastfeed my first. Like, I just thought I could put her there and it would work. And it sure did not. And I learned that just because my body had the capacity to breastfeed didn’t mean I knew how. And just because my body has the capacity to have sex doesn’t mean I know how. And,

[57:18] Michelle: and just because you don’t know how doesn’t mean you’re not able to do it. Doesn’t mean you’re not a mom that can breastfeed. Like that’s the next step is you can learn how.

[57:30] Alisha Worthington: Yes. And that you don’t, you don’t fail at sex. You don’t fail at breastfeeding. You just need to learn. And if we can see it as a skill that you actually learn throughout the rest of your lifespan, because it’s not, it’s always changing. There’s a pregnancy, there’s age, there’s a medical thing. It’s always changing. And if you can build in that safety and security around communication, around all the things, When you need to learn something new, you will. You’ll just learn something new and it won’t be a problem. Um, but going to that context that you said about, you know, coming up and being like, hey, you wanna have, you wanna do this right now? What I try to remind, and

[58:08] Michelle: I have to be fair, I probably do that to my husband more often than he does it to me. So just so, just like shout out. I, I, in our relationship, I’m the one that gets turned down the most. Just like I didn’t want to make it sound like I’m, you know, anyway, I’m, I’m the annoying one. OK, yeah,

[58:26] Alisha Worthington: um, I remind men that before they were married they managed their own lives. They managed They had to manage sometimes getting really turned on in places that were not the place, and manage that. They can continue to do that. It’s almost like once they get married, it’s like, oh, my body is just like out of control. It’s not, you managed it. But also women start to like feel responsible. It’s, it’s this funny thing, but it’s almost like as soon as there’s an erection in the room, it’s almost like, oh, we gotta do something about it. No, you don’t. Do you know

[59:03] Michelle: what? I think we have set up this false expectation that it’s like, once I’m married, I never have to experience this again. I never have to experience an unsatisfied desire, right? So we’ve set up a bad expectation. I did. I had one other thing we’re jumping back and forth just I had something with the breastfeeding analogy of learning how, because I think we often can, I’m just going by what I might hear and you can often hear the woman needs to learn how to have sex, right? But breastfeeding both the baby has the instinct, but the baby has to. Learn how open your mouth. I’d have to be open the mouth real wide. How to latch on how to write. It’s a skill the baby has to learn, so you really have to learn it in concert. A mom can’t learn to breastfeed without a baby and a baby can’t learn to breastfeed without a mother, right? And so that’s the same as a husband and a wife. It’s really. Like it’s something you, it’s the ultimate thing you learn together and you can manage that you are set up to to have a good platform to manage everything. That’s exactly right. OK, I, I just, I like these comparisons, you know, so, OK, so what was the last thing we were just talking about? You made that great point, um.

[1:00:26] Alisha Worthington: Uh, managing the erections. I guess that, I think what starts to happen is we have this natural like desire to nurture people we love and care of.

[1:00:37] Michelle: Yes,

[1:00:38] Alisha Worthington: so it just kind of comes out to everybody and we start nurturing our husbands, which isn’t terrible, but we start almost nurturing them to the point that we start, uh, protecting them from themselves or like, 00, you’re turned on. Let me help it

[1:00:53] Michelle: comes from obligation. It comes from a place of just pure obligation. Yeah, yeah, OK,

[1:00:59] Alisha Worthington: and what gets set up is, and this doesn’t sound great, but what gets set up is like a mom-son thing. Like now I’m just taking care of

[1:01:10] Michelle: and now you can have another cookie just stop bugging, just stop begging.

[1:01:14] Alisha Worthington: uh-huh. It’s not sexy sexy. Nobody wants that dynamic,

[1:01:18] Michelle: but that’s it, OK, that’s really interesting. So what if someone is in that dynamic like I’m, I’m, I guess I’m, I do, I confess I feel, I feel bad for men who don’t have satisfying sex lives. I feel bad for women too, you know, I guess I’m, and, and so if a man is feeling like I’m, I’m married, I’m being faithful, I’m doing my best to be, you know, and I am supposed to just live without sex. Like what would be the best first steps for him to take?

[1:01:51] Alisha Worthington: So it

[1:01:52] Michelle: try to repair

[1:01:53] Alisha Worthington: that. It is sitting like recognizing, so the word is differentiation. Recognizing that your wife is an individual, separate from you. And she is having her own life experience separate from you. And if you can step back and see her as an individual, not like Yes, she’s your wife and probably has done things to hurt you or things like inadvertently, yes, all of that is true. But if you can step back and go, huh, I wonder what type of experience she’s having. Wonder what type of experience and get really curious, and it’s gonna take, I mean, if you’re not used to having these conversations. And you say, you know, I would really like to just understand your experience with sex. I would really like that. She’s gonna look at you like, is this a trap? If I say something, are you gonna use it against me because maybe of the history, maybe the history you have around this. Um, so it may take some convincing. But to give some space. Listen. Just to begin to listen. I would like to talk a little bit about Your experience. She, and and again, if she can start to verbalize. OK, OK. I’m not even sure what I don’t like, but I know that. I often feel pressured. By you. I don’t know if you’re meaning to do that, but that’s how I and to then not go, well, I’m not pressuring you, this and this and this and this to go, oh, you do? OK, tell me more about that. Like, what, when does that happen for you? When do you feel like I’m pressuring you? I’d like to understand more. And keep going.

[1:03:40] Michelle: Do you recommend doing this with a therapist? I guess I’m thinking of all of the ways this can go so wrong because like I can see him saying, well, I wouldn’t be pressuring you if you would ever be willing and I mean like, so, so a radical non-defensiveness, a radical, all I’m trying to do is understand them, not like, like men in this situation, if they want to have sex. These are the ways that can help them, right? But it shouldn’t be about wanting to have sex. It should be about having this unified marriage that sex is a part of, right? So you’re, so if you can let all of that like, like just step into radical non-defensiveness, I might have said that wrong before, but to just be like, OK, I’m just going to hear and it might hurt me. And it might make me really want to jump and defend myself, but recognize that’s the wrong, that’s not the spirit of the Lord, you know? And to be able to sit in it and go, OK, thank you for sharing that with me and let it be done. That’s powerful.

[1:04:47] Alisha Worthington: OK. Almost, and it’s sometimes I’ll give couples a visual, like, visualize your sexual relationship as, uh, a plant or something, a garden, a little plot of land that lives outside of you. What does it look like? Is it a desert? Is it weedy? Is it, do you even do you even have a shared vision of what this looks like? Because if one of you sees it as a desert, and one of you sees it as tropical, one of you is gonna be overwatering, or what, you know, like, no wonder things, but if you can put it out here. And just look at it and go, OK, we’re on the same team, and this is our shared relationship that we are creating. We are the co-creators of this. Have we even looked at it? Have we even looked at what we’re creating, and, and people are so afraid to look at it because again, we haven’t taught them that it’s a skill. This isn’t something that you fail at. This is something that you forgive each other for not knowing, not having been educated, or not knowing how to interact at first, for not knowing how to say the words, to say, wow, we look at us, we tried really hard with very little information. So now, let’s try and get the information we need and let’s forgive our younger selves and love them and create create what we actually want.

[1:06:10] Michelle: Oh, that is so beautiful. So this is a big part of what you do. This is like, like you do a lot of couples therapy, I assume individual and couple and helping helping couples walk through this. So OK, so I love that. I want to talk about um something else as we’re on this topic and and you talked before about how um. You, you were explaining to me how people become fractured. Was that your word or disassociated? And can, can you kind of talk about that, about how you see that, um, developing?

[1:06:46] Alisha Worthington: Yeah. So here, um, I was able to work with, uh, I got invited to do an elders quorum presentation on this, not to. And

[1:06:55] Michelle: can I just say, I know I’m interrupting you here, but I love that so much. Like I’m, I’m tempted to just say right here, like, how much would this bless our words? Like anyone, I, I will have all of Alicia’s contact information and probably other people who do your same work or how they can contact people because this would be a like we are a family centered church, right? What is more at the center of the family than the marriage and like God isn’t afraid of sex.

[1:07:24] Alisha Worthington: No, I was not afraid of sex.

[1:07:27] Michelle: God’s not afraid of sex. It’s not something that shouldn’t be talked about in our churches, right? And so I love that an elders quorum had you come and talk to them, and I hope more and more and more just 5th Sundays or special relief, um, relief society and combined activities that I just think it would be profound youth activities. My goodness, that we could do so much here. This is almost like untrodden snow that we can go build something, build a beautiful ice palace. I shouldn’t have said ice palace. That’s not what I meant. A bad metaphor. It works. But you know what I’m saying? We, we have so much opportunity here to do so much good. OK, now, now

[1:08:10] Alisha Worthington: continue. OK, so I sit up there and I said, OK, guys, tell me if this sounds familiar to you. You are 12 or 13, and either you have accidentally discovered masturbation because a lot of, a lot of men will say, I discovered it, I didn’t know what it was, and then I learned the name of church, and I knew what it was and I knew it was bad. So either they accidentally discover it or they um I saw some porn on a computer. And they go to their bishop, and they confess as they’ve been taught to do. And then maybe that bishop says, OK, fine, but you know, maybe I maybe don’t take the sacrament for a week or two. And then that 12 year old boy is sitting in the pew with his family and doesn’t take the sacrament. Now we have publicly shamed. Because there is nothing else. What has that boy done? Has he robbed a bank? No. Has he stolen a car? No. Like there is nothing else that a 12 year old boy could have done. Everyone’s like, oh, you have taken the sacrament. Public shaming.

[1:09:22] Michelle: Does this happen a lot? I didn’t even know that. So I guess I. OK, OK. I guess I thought that the boys would be too ashamed to go to their bishop.

[1:09:34] Alisha Worthington: No, because they’re still like OK OK so

[1:09:43] Michelle: and then they’re told not to take the sacrament that just, I guess you’re teaching me a lot because I, you know, I only know my experience and so OK.

[1:09:50] Alisha Worthington: So then what does that boy do? He’s like, oh. I will never. So either I will never go confess again. I have done something horrible. Everybody knows it, and I’m gonna hide that now. And so what happens is that shame comes in, and now we’re gonna separate. We’re gonna split our sexuality off, and it’s gonna live over here, and it’s gonna live in a pit of shame and secrecy. And then what happens is because it has been fractured. So now this boy shows up to church and stuff and he’s himself, but the sexuality thing with shame is living over here and he doesn’t know what to do with it. So now he starts to feel anxiety around it because he’s still maybe getting an erection. He’s still like, things are still happening. So, but and his brain goes, oh, we’re not supposed to be doing that. We’re not supposed to be doing that. And then I do it. Because that’s what our brain does, and then now I feel shame again and we have created an absolute shame loop. With and now it is attached that sexuality. And now that young man grows up. And maybe. Maybe they, maybe they tell someone when they’re older, maybe they work with them or maybe they don’t. Maybe they go on their missions and still have this over here on the side, and then they get into their marriage. And because we don’t know how to talk about sex, right? They don’t know how to say to their spouse, hey, I’m still having this ongoing issue with pornography, and I’m not quite sure how to work with it. And can we work with this together or I don’t know what this means, it stays secret. And then it makes it very, very difficult to have an integrated sexual experience when part of your sexuality is living over here. And you feel so ashamed about it and shame, so part of you isn’t able to fully integrate with your wife. And

[1:11:45] Michelle: and that might be part of that expectation is like, I have this horrible shame pit and marriage is the solution to that. And once I’m married, that won’t be there anymore because she’s supposed to fix it. Or might be,

[1:11:58] Alisha Worthington: yeah. And then, and then because maybe the sexual relationship isn’t all that it was supposed to be. Then there’s a returning because now I don’t know what to do with all this anxiety and this grief and the way that I have learned to manage it is to is to be in this behavior. And really underneath excessive porn use is generally social anxiety or anxiety. And so it’s it’s around connection and intimacy with another human being because um I’m gonna go tangential for just a second, but there was a very fascinating study too about boys and Touch and that When boys, little boys are born, little girls are born, they get, they received about the same amount of touch, nurturing touch from their both their parents. And then at around age 3. Um, starts to become a split. Little girls fall down and parents are still like, oh come here, let me help you. Little boys fall down and they start to be told, that’s OK, buddy, walk it off, walk it off. Well, like you’re OK, you’re OK. And so there starts to be a split in like nurturing touch and there starts to be a split in connection like how do I connect with, how do who do I receive help from? Um, and then boys hit puberty and there’s a bigger split because it’s still socially acceptable for girls to walk arm in arm down the hallway or to play with each other’s hair or all and get that nurturing touch. It’s not for boys. And so they get touched with sport, which is pushing, violent sports, stuff like that. So when they finally get into a marriage and they get this touch, and the first type of touch is like in this sexual experience, their brain goes, oh. Touch means sex. And I have been without touch for so long, and that’s how I’m gonna get it is through sex as opposed to also engaged person. I haven’t been touched and cuddled in a really long time, and I need a lot of cuddle and touch. So all of that is going on. And then because of the split and it just all lives over here, like I said, there isn’t that that connection isn’t able to be made. And then maybe again 5 or 10 years in, like, uh, I’m still really using a lot of porn or I’m whatever it is. Um, All the men in this other form, they all nodded their heads. This has been my experience And I just broke my heart for them. I’m just thinking of all those 12 year old boys. You’ve got to do better.

[1:14:45] Michelle: OK, so I want it to, so, um. I want to talk about a couple of things. I want to really dive deep in with porn, and then I do want to connect it to our heritage because I think that this is actually a bigger problem in many ways in our our communities than it is even in the broader world, you know, so, um, so those are kind of, you know, so I want to talk about, I guess we’ll first talk about porn because I have some thoughts on it, you know. I, I have said many times that I think like you can find out what spirit you are being motivated by or influenced by what you are feeling if you can tune into that. And if you are I, I just think the signature of the adversary is fear, shame, and resentment, blame, you know, like, like for me, that’s the the like triumvirate of bad influence as opposed to like hope and love and um connection and faith, right, like, right, and Those are the opposites. This wants to stay in the dark. This wants to be in the light, right? So you can always see that. And so I actually, while Like my whole motherhood as a young mom, being explicitly taught to be terrified. And to be judgmental. I, I feel like, like the 5th Sunday lessons and they would be like these are the ways and it’s your responsibility to keep this out of your home and it’s this scary video of this thing that’s coming in and like it’s, you know, and we were terrified. I mean, speaking, I remember my, yeah, and, and I had two boys where you had to, I mean, you know, like, like we were scared and, and I really mourned like, like for the wife sitting there knowing that’s my husband, he’s so bad, you know, and this is going to destroy our marriage. And so while I think, I think we all agree that pornography is terrible and vile, and we wish it weren’t a part of our society like it is. I had to really come to grips with, hold on, this is God’s world. God chose to send my children into this world. I can’t keep saying I hate the world. How can I keep my children safe? That’s not my job, right? And, and so what are the best things I can do to help navigate this versus the worst things, which is everything I was doing acting out of fear and right. And so anyway, so I’ve come to kind of think of of pornography as part of God’s plan. I mean, you get, please don’t misunderstand what I’m saying anyone. This world is God’s plan, right? God sent us to this world. God gave us a savior and maybe God wants us to really get connected to the process of repair, which is just another word for repentance, right? And of learning deeper truth, because I’ll share a couple of different experiences, but I really now have come to see porn. As not the not not the adversary’s goal, but the but a means to an end. I think where the what the adversary really wants is to have us. In the pit of despair, where we are so ashamed, we are so hopeless, we are so, you know, everything that we just kill ourselves or do like that’s what the adversary is going for, and porn isn’t the goal. Porn is the vehicle to try to get us to that place. Does that make sense?

[1:18:30] Alisha Worthington: Oh, thank you for saying that. Because I feel like the focus has been on the behavior. Let’s stop the behavior. That doesn’t all people do is white knuckle, and then they repeat it because they have, and then they go back into the shame spiral because they have not gone gone underneath to address what’s underneath. And so when, when a man comes in and feels like, and I use the term out of control sexual behavior. Or and or I use um erotic imagery, because when you think of pornography, you just think of one thing on the internet, it’s like most people do, like it’s this and it’s on the internet. But erotic imagery can be found everywhere. It can be found in books, and music, and all sorts of things. In

[1:19:16] Michelle: your imagination,

[1:19:18] Alisha Worthington: but yes, yes. And so when I, when someone comes in and they are full of shame and anxiety, because either they’re gonna, they feel like they’re gonna lose their marriage, they feel like they’ve got this whole secret, they feel like, I mean, all these things are going on, and I don’t start there. I start to go, let’s go, what’s going on underneath? And they look at me like, wait, but aren’t we gonna Aren’t you, don’t I need to confess the problem. Yeah, and, and you’re my confessor. I’m like, no, we’re not doing that. I’m not, you’re not gonna confess to me. I’m not gonna hold you accountable. We are going to be in relationship, and I’m gonna, we’re gonna sit with your anxiety. We’re gonna sit with other things going on and what, and then sometimes spouses get very upset with me. Because they think that I’m endorsing foreign news. They think that I’m not getting their husband in trouble or all the things, and I, I try to explain to them what I’m doing and the training I’m I’ve received. As it’s sort of like again going to little kids. You know when a little kid is engaging in a bad behavior. You can focus on the behavior, but it just increases the behavior. Instead, you’re like, oh, hey, are you hungry? Do you need a hug? What’s, have you had a bad day? You both when

[1:20:35] Michelle: a child won’t stop having tantrums, our first thing is, oh, someone needs a nap, right? Like there’s like they need a nap stop crying

[1:20:43] Alisha Worthington: like that and working on like, OK, every time you cry, you’re a

[1:20:46] Michelle: bad child.

[1:20:47] Alisha Worthington: Yes, yes. And so what happens is as I work with what’s happening underneath. One use goes down.

[1:20:57] Michelle: Oh OK. So, OK, so when you said you use those other words, erotic imagery and out of and, and not under control, you know, like out of out of control, the sex life is controlling you rather than, right? You’re using those words instead of what I think people use, which like I’m addicted to porn. I’m an addict and that is so unhelpful

[1:21:20] Alisha Worthington: because unhelpful. I know

[1:21:22] Michelle: so fear. What it is

[1:21:25] Alisha Worthington: fear. It also, if you are an addict. You’re never not an addict. And so that means that you are a slave to your body for the rest of your life, right? Because your body is out of your control. Also, it’s

[1:21:38] Michelle: like, this is my, I’m, I’m sober this many days. I’m sober for 500 days, but I’m always still, once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic is our idea.

[1:21:47] Alisha Worthington: Yeah. And so then if you’re an addict, then there are expected relapses, right? And all the things that come with it. So that might, that model works. Or maybe alcoholism or traditional things, but how do you tell somebody how what the addiction model causes divorce? Because if you are, how do you restore healthy sexuality if you cannot think about it? If you like, if you’re an alcoholic, you don’t go to the bar, you don’t buy alcohol like you do, yes, but if you are a, if you’re a porn addict or a sex addict. OK, so then how are you supposed to restore healthy sexuality with your spouse? Now you have set up, I live with an addict, like you’re the addict and I’m the person who has to monitor you, and now we’re in this like, I don’t know that I wanna have sex with an addict, or when was the last time you did this? It destroys the relationship. For both, for both.

[1:22:51] Michelle: OK. So we have these young men who have gone through this process that you’ve described because we so sadly have turned. Masturbation or eroticism into something that’s that’s sinful that must be confessed rather than that’s like must be healed, understood and healed, right, which would be a better approach. It’s not something that you confess and have to do penance for. It’s something that would be better to go, oh, what is the need that that is filling and what are some other ways to fill that need, right? That would be a better approach. And then on the other hand, we have These young women that we have taught, uh, they have grown up hearing these lessons about how, about pornography addiction and how addictive it is and how horrible it is and how right, so we’ve set up this dichotomy where she is totally disempowered to do anything other than judge and fear and monitor and step into that, not even a maternal role, but almost a parole officer role, right? And he is in this place of shame and hopelessness and the resentment that can grow from both of them. So I’m trying to like, like

[1:24:05] Alisha Worthington: how are those two people gonna actually have sex?

[1:24:09] Michelle: Well, or they’re going to have sex, but how are they going to have a joyful marriage and and I mean like like it’s the whole thing, right? Like they’re taking on each other’s stuff. He, he was dealing with porn and dealing with the shame cycle before she was in the picture, but all of a sudden there’s this expectation that marriage is supposed to fix. It. So now when she’s in the picture, if he uses porn, that’s about her. I’m not enough. I’m not, right? She, but that’s her putting that on herself. I, I bet he is desperate for her not to, you know. So she and her feelings, I’m, I’m just thinking through this, her feelings of insecurity and betrayal manifest as resentment toward him, right? And so his feelings of shame and Being judged and manifest his resentment towards himself and to her eventually, right? So this is kind of what we’ve created where I think Like it’s so much better if we can teach our children, both girls and boys, this is the world we live in. These are like, and we can set this up with our boys by removing the fear. Well, and I know that boys and girls can be in porn. Yes, and we can struggle with it, but I’m gonna just say it’s mostly a boy problem, like, right? But with either, with, with either sex with with our children. If we can remove for ourselves the fear and the judgment, the blame and the shame, right? And instead just be like, hey, you know, like just let it be a part of the conversation just like our sex, just like sex in general and just have it be like, hey, I’ve been noticing that, you know, we’re kind of disconnected. How are you doing? and You know, if you ever like, like I know that pornography is something that, you know, I don’t know how I I I’m not saying it well, but you know, if it can flow naturally with prayer and inspiration to just be like, hey Betty, I just want you to know you can talk to me and if you’re ever feeling like just dark or You know, if you, if you don’t like the way you feel after pornography, the best thing to do is connect. So just come and connect me and let’s go do something fun to get a better spirit going and, and maybe we can figure out, you know, what is it that you’re feeling that makes you feel like pornography might be the best solution and what can, how can we connect better so you’re not feeling. So much shame, but even more than that, let’s not talk, let’s not make it about pornography, I guess. I want to minimize, take as much focus off it as possible. I feel like, you know, the, the, um, Jordan Peterson often talks about the gorilla test that like watch the ball and then when the gorilla walks into the screen, you don’t even see the guy in the gorilla costume. So I feel like when we’re focusing on the porn, we make it so. Big. So I’m wanting to figure out how to take the attention off of the porn as much as possible. And the problem is a lot of people when they hear that think we’re saying porn is just fine. And what we’re really trying to say is porn isn’t the issue, let’s take the focus off of it because that’s the way we make it smaller. That’s the way we take the power away from it.

[1:27:21] Alisha Worthington: Exactly. And let’s actually look at because as more, as members of the church. We don’t, we don’t get to drink a beer to work with our anxiety. We don’t get to use weed, like the, the whole world is self-medicating in other ways. Our options,

[1:27:40] Michelle: and even back in the like the Bible talks about being merry with wine. Jesus drink wine, like that was a part of their ways to relax and so we, we are very limited in our means.

[1:27:52] Alisha Worthington: So and so this is a pornography is quick, it’s accessible. It, it allows for a complete zone out, like it is a numbing, a numbing thing, that is what it is. And it’s, it’s again driven by either some sort of disconnection, mostly anxiety driven or like I need to decompress, I’m buzzing. I don’t know what to do. I’m over here. And so again,

[1:28:18] Michelle: like a way to escape and just reset the stress that that OK and

[1:28:24] Alisha Worthington: we haven’t necessarily taught her. Young men how to connect emotionally. Um, and that, you know, that’s not necessarily a model they’re given, and so that’s one of the, the training I received was from a man. This model is, was created by a man named Doug Ron Harvey, who is from San Diego. And he started this. Type of um modality in the 80s with um men then and that he created support groups for men who were experiencing out of control sexual behavior and it wasn’t like, oh, it wasn’t a 12 step program. It was a therapy, like we are going to learn how to connect with other men. I am a man, I’m gonna connect emotionally. I’m gonna learn how to do this in a safe place. I’m gonna and that. Teaching men how to become more relational, that it is OK, that it is OK to connect and be vulnerable. It doesn’t mean you’re any less of a man. It doesn’t mean all those things. They don’t know how to do it because they have been taught, put that away. You know, you have to be the strong guy, put and put away your fears, put away, like, hold it to yourself. And kind of buttoned up,

[1:29:38] Michelle: yeah, just kind of buttoned up, be this straight laced in your suit and tie and,

[1:29:42] Alisha Worthington: yeah, so,

[1:29:44] Michelle: OK,

[1:29:44] Alisha Worthington: so he has, he has a really nice. I’d call it a scaffolding for sexual health. If they’re called the six principles of sexual health, and it allows the couple to create agreements, agreements around, OK, what is OK and what is not OK, and how are we gonna manage this and how are we gonna know when we need to connect with each other more and, you know, what, what does exploitation look like in our marriage? And if I’m doing something secret over here that you don’t know about, that’s actually exploitation. I’m exploiting you. And I, we don’t want that. And so how are we going to work with that, you know, it, it’s again like you said, it’s bringing things into the light. And not being afraid of it, but going, oh, this is something that exists. What do we want to do with this instead.

[1:30:31] Michelle: OK, OK, so, so back to what you were saying about um porn or masturbation as sort of a stress release. I don’t want anyone to hear that as if to say, hey, it’s great, you know, like, but I think, I think the point is if we can if we can recognize that it’s a stress management tool. Then we can recognize that adding more stress to it is going to make it worse, not better, right? And then we’ll drive it. Right, it will, it will, it will increase the problem and we can start going, what are some other ways to manage stress as we’re navigating this, you know, like. And, and I do, I think a lot about, I, I did an episode where I talked about, I think the twofold purpose of the atonement where the atonement blesses us in two ways. It Makes up for all the times we repeatedly mess up, make mistakes, are imperfect as we are progressing, and then at some point when that weakness or struggle is no longer necessary for us, is no longer serving us, the Lord will heal us from it and that the atonement can heal us, right? So I think that we take the power away from you messed up, you messed up, and instead go. The atonement is great. I mean, and it’s not to minimize or to, it’s to remove shame does not serve us well. And if we’re aiming up and wanting good things, then we can trust that we’re wanting good things and all of the many hiccups along the way don’t change the fact that we’re wanting good things, right? Right. And so the more we can recognize what this is doing and say, let’s remove stress as much as we can, remove shame as much as we can, remove fear as much as we can, remove judgment and increase connection. And you know, and that there’s so many ways I know that this can go sideways where it can be like, well, you’re not connecting enough with me, you know, but that’s why we need therapists to help, right? But, but in general, that seems like such a better. Way to approach this where she can be taught if if it’s him with the pornography you know habit and she can be taught this is not about you at all he was doing it before you were in the picture. Don’t you don’t need to take it on and it’s an opportunity for you to build up your own inner self, your own confidence, your own so you can just see it with compassion. Rather than making it so much worse for both of you because you are being victimized by it when he does not want to hurt you, right,

[1:33:11] Alisha Worthington: right.

[1:33:11] Michelle: And so it’s

[1:33:12] Alisha Worthington: actually an opportunity. Because And I say this with kindness and compassion. So many LVS women are very underdeveloped sexually, and they are very, very afraid of their sexuality. And very, very afraid of their own sexual power. They’re very afraid to maybe feel out of control or that in their own bodies or to that that overwhelming sense of pleasure can, can be overwhelming. And because of all the they’ve received, they feel like they’re doing something wrong in their own body, that they should, like, they don’t, they don’t get to experience. And so

[1:33:57] Michelle: as the women are too buttoned up too in a way that they buttoned up wear a mask.

[1:34:03] Alisha Worthington: So in some ways if their husband can just have a a a porn problem. They don’t have to work on their own sexuality. So I love that you said she can work on herself. Because if she’s just focused over here. Then, and so what I, when, when we start working with this and I’ll say, OK. Now we get to work with your sexuality, the amount of fear, and I, I, cause with men, it’s actually easier because we work with their shame and we work with their anxiety. They’re pretty connected to their own bodies. They’ve been fairly connected. It’s once we get that away, they’re like, OK, yeah, I can step into healthy sexuality. I’m not afraid of my body. I like what it, how it feels. Women are so disconnected from their own bodies and their own sexuality that it is absolutely frightening, and we have to almost like put on, I feel like I put on a mining hat, and we have to like mine way down under these layers to find that root of sexuality that is there. And start to develop it. And I have to be so careful and gentle because they are so so. And it takes it’s OK.

[1:35:21] Michelle: OK, so, so this brings us to some other things that some other aspects that we wanted to talk about because that like that that is foreign to me. I’m not, you know, that hasn’t been my experience. And so I’m really I, I just feel so much compassion for that and, you know, and I, and like I don’t want anyone to feel judged at all if that’s their experience. That is hard. I want that can’t be normal development. I think that that is that like, like one of the things I wanted to talk about is why we see these patterns that we have because they are somewhat. Maybe if not unique, I think they are somewhat unique, but at least they are sort of magnified in our culture, in our communities. And so where does that kind of sexual fear, I would also think there’s a lot of shame like it’s scary to be that vulnerable. It’s got to be a part of it. Like, um, I, I, I, I have to feel in control somehow I have to control this part of myself and not. So, so talk about how that develops. You kind of talked about how the shame develops on the male side. How does this fear and lack of, you know, the disconnection develop on the feminine side.

[1:36:40] Alisha Worthington: Um, it generally starts young because we’re not teaching girls about their body parts, or if we do see them touching themselves, parents are more apt to say stop touching. Up touching your body, they’re more apt to do that with little girls and little boys. So, I can’t tell you how many women feel such shame around even realizing that they have Genitals like that’s so uncomfortable for me. I feel good, uh-huh, yes, OK and then um. Unwittingly, these are, these are not like done with malintent by most parents, but then we start kind of teaching girls that they need to cover up their bodies because boys are looking. And that girls need to be the gatekeepers for the boy’s eye. But again, the boys have a the boys have a sex drive, they can’t control it, and what we’re kind of said the message we’re sending a little bit is you don’t have a sex drive. And I’m just

[1:37:44] Michelle: thinking of, OK, all of the stories that are so painful to me of like. Girls that girls can’t being told they have to wear t-shirts over their swimsuits because the bishop’s coming. Like that is so creepy and bad in every like teaching them that their bishop is going to sexualize them. I can’t think of a better way to make them feel. Disconnected and dangerous and grossed out and like, like my bishop who I hold in this respect who I’ve never had a sexual thought about and all of a sudden we introduced that it’s so bad. OK, so is that what you’re talking about that

[1:38:21] Alisha Worthington: right then there’s like this covering up and hiding away of the sexuality. Just doesn’t, it stops developing. And so it’s then it’s just covered up by a layer layer layer and then add in because we do have high rates of sexual assault and sexual abuse our church. So add that in and you have uh a young woman who is

[1:38:43] Michelle: that’s probably a big thing to add in. I would assume that’s a humongous thing to add in.

[1:38:47] Alisha Worthington: It’s a humongous thing to add in. And so then, I mean, that can create more shame in a woman and a young girl because Children, when they experience trauma, they have to turn it on themselves in order to survive. I must have done something bad. I was wearing the wrong thing. I was, they don’t have the brain development, the life experience to know that it was 100% the responsibility of the adult, 100%. They don’t have that. They turn it on themselves. And so now, again, it just adds to like I’m really bad, and this like. Sexuality is really bad and really scary, and I just can’t even, I can’t even go there. And we don’t that prepare our young couples for actually getting into a marriage, not only like, here’s how you have healthy sexuality, but probably you’re gonna be with a partner who has some sort of sexual. And here is how you’re going to need to work with this because it’s gonna show.

[1:39:47] Michelle: Oh my goodness. So and, and this might neither of them may not, they might not know this is the case at all through their entire courtship and engagement. They don’t recognize until they get married that all of a sudden, whoa, what is this thing we’re dealing with? OK. And so that’s part of the, maybe take it slow. your honeymoon because you don’t know what’s going to be there. Yeah, like be very patient and very careful because this also could be a magnificent opportunity to heal so much and take all of that darkness and turn it into something beautiful, right? OK. So I Go ahead.

[1:40:34] Alisha Worthington: Oh, I was just gonna to answer your other question if you want to go here. Um, I, I, yes, is there sexual abuse in other religions? Yes. Is there porn use in other excessive porn use in other religions? Yes, this is not just unique to LBS culture. However, We have higher rates and potentially other religions, and we have um Otherwise, I’m, I don’t want to even say that. I feel like the secrecy and the fracturing that exists. Um, is the fracturing, I feel like it’s sort of unique and, and there’s a different type of fracturing because A unique thing that I love about our culture that we all get to volunteer to have callings and take part. I love that. At the same time, there’re a little, we all learn how to sort of compartmentalize people like Oh, my neighbor, who I just like, he’s a dad next door and we go get slurpees, whatever, now he’s my bishop. Oh, now I have to think of them in this way.

[1:41:45] Michelle: And now I talked, now I confess to him in this sha spiral.

[1:41:50] Alisha Worthington: Uh-huh. And now he’s not my bishop anymore. And this person is. And it’s like we do this funny, like, oh, now you’re this and now you’re this. And it teaches our brains to compartmentalize in ways that our religious structures don’t have. So there’s always a shadow, right? There’s always an opposition in all things. And I feel like this is the shadow side of wonderful. Way that we get to serve in the church. Is this compartmentalization. So we have compartmentalization, and then we have a lot of secrecy, a lot, but we’ve couched it in terms of reverence. This is too reverent to talk about or, you know, this what we talk about

[1:42:34] Michelle: as we’re having this conversation, I’m realizing that is a really convenient excuse to not be uncomfortable with things we haven’t healed within ourselves.

[1:42:42] Alisha Worthington: OK. So just don’t talk, we don’t talk about that and secrecy combined with compartmentalization. Just is like creates a foundation for abuse to. Because, and I, I feel like you could go back in back generations to polygamy or to the early beginnings where Especially once it was against the law. It was all done in secret. And it was all like, oh no, this is, they’re not really, it, it’s, this is just so and so who lives down the road, but we’re not really married, you know, but we are, but we’re not. So secrecy, um, which could then creates, it’s just creates the foundation for abuse because if you’re not supposed to be married to this person and people aren’t supposed to know, then he comes over and coercively has sex with you, or even assaults you. You’re not gonna say anything. You don’t get to see or if your child is being assaulted or whatever, lady says anything. And then that Got handed down through all of our generations to where we are still in this place of, oh no, we’re not gonna talk about healthy sexuality. Don’t talk about that. Like any 5th Sunday I’ve seen on pornography is always the fear that don’t do, don’t stay away, stay away, don’t talk about. It’s never about what to do. Um, and keep things to yourselves, like it’s just keep your pornography over here, we’re gonna shame it over here, we’re gonna call you an addict. It’s just, but anything with trauma. Um, starts to leak out. You have not dealt with someone has not dealt with trauma, it shows up, it still shows up the law of the universe is you either talk it out or you act it out.

[1:44:43] Michelle: So that union, that union shadow, right? The more you try and bury it, the more it’s going to just, yeah, it’s gonna come out with more force just like trying to put your finger over a hose. It’s gonna do more damage.

[1:44:59] Alisha Worthington: Yes, and so I feel like it’s showing up in our high rates of sexual abuse. We should not have these rates of sexual abuse within our culture. We should not.

[1:45:07] Michelle: How do we compare? Do you know,

[1:45:12] Alisha Worthington: our national average is 1 in 4 women, and that could be higher now with me too, but national average is 1 in 4, the church is 1 in 3. Girls. And we don’t have accurate stats on boys because boys don’t report as often, but the thinking is 1 in 7, but they think it’s probably a lot higher. Also, also, it’s the way we’ve defined abuse or sexual assault because If you start asking a woman and she’s like, well, it wasn’t great. I’ve never, I’ve never been raped. Oh, but I do maybe remember this time, um, on my mission, when a branch president would call me at 2 a.m. and I didn’t know why this is a story I heard. I had no idea why he was calling me, but it was so weird and it was creepy, and I felt awful. But I, and he would say like, now, don’t tell anybody. I’m just calling to talk to you at night cause I need help. And now years later, she’s like, I know what he was doing. He was talking, you know, and so it’s, that wasn’t necessarily a salt per se, but it was definitely. Without consent or crossing lines, you know, all the things and so you have things like that that go on, um, and so you start asking them in those questions and they’re like, oh. Yes, this and this and this, that’s all gonna impact their

[1:46:40] Michelle: section. So, so there’s just a lot of creepiness, just creepy stuff that I think we all have experienced. Even like, like being told as a 1213, 1415, 1617 year old that you can’t be in a swimming suit if the bishop is there. That’s a creepy factor that we just need to cut out of our and and having that be even acceptable, that probably was implemented by someone who had experienced some sort of assault, like, or incest or something that gave them that fear that they were then putting out on all those girls. And so,

[1:47:16] Alisha Worthington: and then we and then we add to it, um, sorry, I’ll stop and just a second, but we add to it. Um, because, and again, the Me Too movement has helped with this a bit. When you have a young girl who maybe is experiencing incest or maybe she’s being sexually abused by an uncle or a young boy who’s experiencing that, um. That girl probably knows that if she says something, And her whole family gets destroyed. That guy maybe goes to jail this and it’s all on her. And generally if she does say something and the guy does go to jail, generally the family members have not rallied around her. You rally around that guy.

[1:48:01] Michelle: Or

[1:48:02] Alisha Worthington: at

[1:48:02] Michelle: least there’s a division, there’s, yeah, like, and that shows up in our culture way too much, way too much. I have a lot of personal experiences with that. And, and I do want to say like my experience, you know, I have two sons who have been And sexually assaulted, not, I don’t want to overstate not raped, but absolute sexual assault and um much more profound than most, you know, than any anything I or any of my daughters have experienced by both by girls, both by women. So, um, so, so it is, you know, this we’re just talking in terms this can apply anywhere, but I want to break this down a little bit because when I look at it. Um, like, like I think people who don’t and haven’t experienced these things think that this is crazy. What are you talking about? Because it’s not, you know, if you haven’t experienced that, you don’t know, right? And so, so it’s hard, so I’m, I’m asking people to just relate that just because it’s not your experience doesn’t mean it’s not somebody’s or a lot of people’s, right? But, um, so, so there’s that part of it where we really, I guess I’m just, I want to be very compassionate to our culture because I think we’re all in. This mess together, right? Like all of us have to heal and I look back at things I did that I just cringe over things I might have said as a young woman teacher or, you know, like, not, not knowing. So we’ve all contributed to it and we’re all trying to heal it together, right? But I look at it, my goodness, when we look at what we have inherited, polygamy is based on the idea that men can’t control their sexuality. All of so many of those early talks were like, well, if, if, if we don’t have this, we’re going to have. The houses of prostitution. We’re going to have like the options are polygamy or adultery and prostitution that that was and that still is being said so often by so many polygamists or you know, so there’s no such thing as a monogamous man and a man is not capable of controlling his sexuality. Right. Also based completely on the idea that women have no sexuality, at least should have no expectation of sexuality and have no need, and that they are only there to serve the man and all they are is a womb because really the polygamist teaching was sex is for pregnancy. So women who either or who were not available to get pregnant, who either were pregnant or, you know, would not, they wouldn’t have sex and once they were no longer fertile, their sex life was over and and it wasn’t because you said it’s, it’s about safety and trust so there was obviously no expectation for women to enjoy sex, right? She was there purely as a vehicle. To serve the man’s needs and the male god’s needs, right? God needs babies born and you’re the womb, and, and the man enjoys impregnating you and that’s what matters, right? So I’m seeing all of this, like no connection, no sexual understanding of her body, right? I kind

[1:51:08] Alisha Worthington: of ownership, ownership,

[1:51:11] Michelle: no ownership of her body,

[1:51:12] Alisha Worthington: sexuality became owned. And it wasn’t hers anymore. It’s just it was.

[1:51:19] Michelle: Yeah, it’s just we’re all like Hagar. I mean they not we, but they were all like Hagar. Her body wasn’t her own and the fruit of her womb wasn’t her own. It was going to be a baby for her mistress, right? And so, so that’s really interesting. And then the secrecy, and I don’t think it’s just the secrecy about um. About keep it quiet that we’re doing polygamy, I think that’s only, I think that’s a very mild part of it that actually in some ways when you’re keeping when it’s the outside world it’s an us versus them and that can unify us and actually help us be more connected than we would otherwise be. I think what it really is is the awful emotions of jealousy of no one’s needs are met, not even sexual, but no one’s. Physical, emotional, like no one has their needs met, so there’s this massive scarcity and lack. So any anything hurts, right? Like, so everything has to be kept secret and my mom talked to me about, so my grandmother was the oldest daughter of polygamists, right, fully Mormon, not FLDS at all, but you know, and um. But the secret, like my mom, her mother could not say the word pregnant. She couldn’t say the word pregnant. She would say that way. She’s that way. And she couldn’t talk to her oldest daughter even on her wedding night. You know, there was this, and, and even my mom, like I said, I grew up. on all of these stories about the beauty of polygamy and it wasn’t until even my mom who has intentionally gone completely the other way, like I was raised with, I think, a healthy perspective on sex you know, I haven’t had any complications like this that I don’t relate to them, and I credit my mom with that, you know. But even her trying so hard to go the opposite direction, still, she didn’t think it was OK to tell the stories about her family, you know, like about her, her grandmother, so the second wife in the polygamist family, the one who was the mother of all the children, she was never allowed to say mine. She couldn’t say my child, she couldn’t say my baby, you know, there are horrible and. And one of the stories she told me is her rocking at night, rocking her babies crying, saying, mine, mine, my baby, you know, like heartbreaking, and that’s just one little tiny part of just the pain that was everywhere. So I think the secrecy was more internal even more external. Sorry, I probably monologuing too long. But I’m thinking of all of these things passing down men like I call it the David principle where they have no ability or need, like why should I have to be denied anything? If I have an erection, I should have it satisfied by whoever I think that should be, whether it’s that married woman across the way that I’m spying on in the. you know, or that child that caused me to have an erection because they were there being a child where I could see them in an erect state. I mean, you know, like, like this is a mindset we have that that has been created, I think that has been passed down to us. So that was my big long, I’m sorry, it went on too long, but I would love to hear your thoughts of how, I mean, I do see this as, like I know both of us feel like we are sort of called to Help in this generational trauma that has been passed down to us.

[1:54:47] Alisha Worthington: So because I mean speaking of generational trauma, so I am a direct descendant of Brigham Young. Uh, my grandmother was Lucy Bigelow, and she was one of the youngest and last wife. She married him at, I think he was, what was he? 46 and she was 18. Um, and she and her sister both married him at the same time, and her sister divorced him actually a couple of years later, but my grandmother stayed married. Um, and so that same legacy had had been passed down. However, Lucy’s daughter, Souza Young Gates, um, was my great great grandmother.

[1:55:28] Michelle: favorite daughter. OK. Yeah.

[1:55:30] Alisha Worthington: And Souza, we, in our family, we had her Book of Mormon, and in her Book of Mormon, she had underlined different things about lymy, and on the side, it says, ask Father about this. I need to understand more. And I think she was not quite sure that this was the way. Um, but I, what, what I, um, from different writings that we have of hers, the thing that happened that we now have a word for, and I know it’s trendy and it’s used all over the place, but the thing that happened so often was gaslighting. Like, and it would be gaslighting by other women, to women. Oh no, this is wonderful. Oh no, you’re having a good experience. Oh no, that didn’t hurt. Oh no, you don’t, it doesn’t matter that that that child doesn’t feel like you. It’s like, it’s it’s like hypnotic. It changes.

[1:56:19] Michelle: I talked about that in the, in like the great indignation meeting in the speeches by the women, they completely deny the reality of what was going around them repeatedly because they had to. Because they were so powerless. They were in the ultimate abuse situation, completely isolated, completely powerless, and, and so they were forced to not see it themselves because they trained themselves to not, to not

[1:56:45] Alisha Worthington: see, yes, because they had to survive. Our nervous systems at all times are making decisions based on like how do I survive XYZ, whatever is happening. This is my best option at all times. And so more often than not, um, a woman or a person could be a man, in that type of situation, learns to go along because if you’re isolated, especially in that time, if you got kicked out, that could mean death. That could mean, I mean, absolute death. And now we still experience that as human beings because as human beings we are social creatures. And if you feel like you are going to be kicked out of your village, It feels like that because that is how human beings survive, and so human beings will deny parts of themselves in order to stay in the village. They will say, oh

[1:57:38] Michelle: it’s. It’s the same, I think you can tell me how we talked about a child must blame themselves and internalize because their only way to stay alive is through the good graces of their parents. So they cannot view their parents as wrong or bad, right? That’s impossible like like God designed it that way, right? Like that’s that’s baked in and in a way. These people were all just as dependent as children, so there was no. Mechanism, there was no ability to say something with the institution is wrong, something with the leadership is wrong. It had to be I’m wrong or you’re wrong. No, you can’t have been abused because that can’t fit into that thing can’t have happened. And we still hear this from the LDS a lot that children are like girls are blamed if they are molested or, you know, even in their prairie dresses like because we have to. We don’t have a way to think about it otherwise just like a child doesn’t have another way to think about abuse.

[1:58:45] Alisha Worthington: Yes, that’s exactly right. And that has been that feeling that that has been handed down and handed down so that we victim blame still, or we say don’t talk about it. Keep whatever is happening over here in secret. We don’t want to know because the illusion that we’re living in, it has to remain. You have to keep it going. And what’s happening now, again, I have a love-hate with the internet. Love it, hate it, but as more people now have access to information and can go oh. Oh, I think I understand what is happening we’re kind of seeing cracks like more people are going, I don’t, I I I don’t think that I want to continue having coercive sex, you know, or I don’t think I want to, well I, I did experience. Abuse as a child, and I now have a name for that thanks to information and knowledge. Knowledge, I feel like light is being poured down and shining in all the cracks. And it’s this, I think it’s wonderful and beautiful because I think it’s gonna help take us to where we need to go, but it is gonna be a painful, painful process because there are a lot of shadows and it’s going to be, and people don’t want to look at shadows. It’s very painful and scary. And I don’t blame them. It’s hard. Therapy is hard. Trying to like change a paradigm is hard. Trying to think about your family of origin in a different way is hard and painful, and there’s so much grief. And yet we also, we aren’t in this alone. We have the atonement, we have Light bringers, we have people who are saying, well we can do this together, we can, we can do this, and it creates a new kind of village that that is healthy, but it cannot. I sometimes think of the gospel as an orchard. And that the tree around sexuality just needs to be burned to the ground and we need to start again because it has been. Whatever root started, it has, it grew up with all this abuse, all this gaslighting, all this coercion, and this fruit is this tree is not producing good fruit. There are a few people who are experiencing good fruit, but overall, this tree is not producing good fruit, and this is not we like you do in an orchard, we need to prune it away and that is gonna be painful. But I think that is why more and more people, you have more and more LDS therapists who are trying to learn about healthy sexuality. I think there’s a reason why Women. I, I feel very called to this as a woman, and it makes people uncomfortable that I would talk so openly about sex, that I would talk so openly about how you can have healthy sexuality. I think I’m, I’m called to like stand in the space of like, OK, you’re uncomfortable. It’s OK, we can be in this space together. Um, if it were only men talking about healthy sexuality, I don’t think that would change the paradigm. We have to have more women who are, who can stand in this space, but it’s scary. It’s vulnerable.

[2:01:52] Michelle: That’s so true because it’s kind of like, if it’s a boys thing, a boy can talk about it, two men, and they can keep kind of a level of the shame there because we’re not going that next. We’re not humanizing. Women can’t just be humans with common things like if we talk about sex with a woman. We’re all like, like we have to get over that next barrier. I, when you were talking about bringing this into light, and you know, I do think, I actually think that’s the central purpose of the gospel is to help us integrate all of our shadows like I’ve, I’ve said before, so, but, but I really, that’s how I interpret now, the lion shall lay down with the lamb, you know, even though it’s different than that in the scriptures, but I really think it is like we can come to wholeness. Our shadow isn’t this raging lion and our consciousness isn’t this terrified lamb, right? They can come together and be at peace and when the only way we have a world at peace is when we are a bunch of people at complete wholeness and peace, right? And so, as, and, and in a way, it goes to my podcast. Like, I know there are people that are uncomfortable with what I’m doing. Just like there are people who are uncomfortable with what you’re doing, that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done, right? Like that discomfort is something we should consider and go, wait, do we want to keep living here in this place of buttoned up so tight and being so judgmental, so I can keep denying this part of myself that I’m too scared to get in touch with or that I’m too ashamed of. And so I think it’s Really important work that you’re doing. I, OK, we’ve talked a long time. I hope people have found this interesting. I thought it was so important. Is there anything else? I’m, I’m thinking we might talk again. In the meantime though, is there anything else you would like to share that we can cover?

[2:03:44] Alisha Worthington: I think the last thing I wanted to Say or was is to talk about what it’s like to be an LDS therapist. Oh,

[2:03:53] Michelle: I wanted to ask you that,

[2:03:55] Alisha Worthington: yes, um, yeah. I, speaking of shadow, I am asked to hold the shadow. I am asked, I have, people are coming in and sharing their absolute horrific stories of pain and confusion, often in concert with their sexuality or something that has happened, sometimes unfortunately, with a bishop or an uncle who’s a prominent person or an aunt, or, you know, something that has gone on. And I am asked to hold that and work with them in that. And because I’m a therapist and not a relief society president, I, I don’t get to just say, well, I hope you pray more and I hope you go to church more. I have to go into that pain with them and look around and let them show me every single aspect of that pain. And as a result, It is very, very difficult for me to engage fully with the culture because I don’t get to just show up and be like, I am all happy with the rest of you, um, with the illusion that is being presented. I don’t get to do that. And so sometimes I feel like people are Thinking, you know, like, well. What are you like you’re not that you’re not as involved, but they’re confused a little bit by maybe what how I speak about. Our culture or our church. And it’s not that I am trying to tear it down. It’s not that I hate it. I actually love my Mormon culture and I love my Mormon heritage as messy as it is. And I love the people. What it is is I, I I am holding such heavy things, and I sometimes wish, it’s gonna make me cry. Sometimes I wish people on the board would say, gosh, thank you for holding what you’re holding. Because we don’t have. And we get to, and I, that’s that’s what I want to say, but Oh, sorry, that made me cry. Um, I utilize the atonement greatly in my practice as a therapist because I also recognize these are not my stories told. This, this is somebody’s sacred experience. Um, but it is very, I wish more people understood that as they watch LDS therapists and think. You know, are you falling away from the church, or are you doing this or doing that as opposed to like, oh, how could we support you?

[2:06:36] Michelle: Or what I’m actually thinking, you can tell me if I’m like, like this is the ultimate ignorance is bliss. All of us that don’t know what’s happening in our communities because we haven’t experienced it, are able to just really believe that we are this version of ourselves that we appear. To be right. And so when someone says, hey, there’s this part of it too, we don’t want to, well, we don’t even, again, no, there’s not. How how could there be that part of it, right? I think that’s where so many bishops that are like, oh, you don’t want to destroy it like they just don’t even know what to do. And so I feel like what you are doing, at least it seems to me, as you are down being asked to sit with people in the depths of the shadow. This, you know, we are the bright shiny people and we cast a big shadow and you’re being asked to sit there and then being asked to go up and interact in the bright shiny. But you have the knowledge that this is here, so it’s really hard to be here in the shiny right where it’s where the shadow is not welcomed. We’re, we’re not allowed to acknowledge it, talk. I think that’s maybe like if I think your load would be a little bit, um, lighter if we could all be more real. We come, I’ve heard a lot of people talk about like we come to church. Not we’ve come to church to appear as unbroken as possible, right? Like, like on in our Sunday meetings we don’t really, it’s like not all of us are comfortable sharing our realities, what we’re really experiencing and. I think because we have a deep sense that people aren’t comfortable hearing our realities. So since we have this community where that’s not fully integrated and not welcomed, you’re asked to hold it. And I like that’s what I’m hearing is I, I do think like, like it’s reminding me of the big campaigns against Julie Hanks and how, because I think she’s exactly in the place you are. She’s just a bit more vocal, you know, but I think that’s what you’re speaking to. So I do want us to be more supportive of LDS therapists, but what I want even more is for us to make LDS therapists less necessary. I mean, I think, or at least make the burden you’re asked to hold in secret less necessary because the secret part. Yeah, because it is. That’s like, like, tell me how you would feel unburdening your, well, I guess, but, but like sharing your true experience in testimony meeting, right? Not, I’m not even talking about talking about clients or anything, but like even just speaking to the darkness that is there, it’s it’s not welcomed

[2:09:40] Alisha Worthington: to be talked about. And so I feel like I often have to stand apart, which is lonely. I don’t want, yeah, but it’s, it’s a feeling of Again, not being kicked out of the village, but a little bit of like, oh, we don’t, you make us uncomfortable because we know that you know what’s really unless

[2:09:58] Michelle: you, unless you just put on like pretend to not be and not know not share your true insights. Like you have to come and pretend. Like, like, I guess for you to be fully integrated into the village, you have to pretend, right? And I

[2:10:13] Alisha Worthington: can, I can’t do that because of my, of these stories that I’ve heard of the people I work with who I love. I cannot in good conscience then go and pretend like that pain doesn’t exist. I can’t do that. And I don’t wanna have to maintain, I don’t wanna have to be like in people’s faces and be like, here it is. That’s not my role. I don’t, I don’t need to tear anything down. I don’t need to be angry. I don’t, I don’t need to do that. I guess I just wish that there was more understanding, but there is shadow. Like it would be so nice if there could be this real acknowledgement, like you said. And, and, and if we could integrate and not be compartmentalized, not be fractured, but an understanding that shadow exists and it’s OK. And we, we will all be OK because we are all complex, and if we can learn to sit with our own complexities, our light and shadow, then we can sit with the complexities of others, and then we can all join hands actually and help each other along the way. But So I, anyway, that’s all.

[2:11:23] Michelle: I had a magical. I just wanna like make an example, you know, like there was a magical relief society meeting one time where the teacher talked about being molested by her father, which I know this was several years ago made me go like we’re gonna shatter, you know what I mean? But I was so. proud of her isn’t the right word, but so like. Oh, go, yeah, like that, you know, and then there were like 4 or 5 comments from women in the um in the congregation. What what’s the word I’m looking for in the class, you know, that were that were sharing that just they didn’t get into any details but like said that similar things that happened to them and it was so amazing and so. Real and talking about the power of the atonement in those ways like to me, I wish we had so much more of that where those who haven’t experienced these things can be brought into awareness of what things happen in our very own perfect communities right? and who those who for those who do carry these things to be able to be seen and heard without carrying that shame, right? I, I, I guess that’s what I think is one step we can take is be. More willing to show up as our authentic selves. That’s what it is. You can’t show up as your authentic self and be, right? So if all of us can prayerfully and maybe with some support, prayerfully know how we can show up and be more authentic and then at the same time look for opportunities to be more supportive of people who are who are being authentic. That’s one small thing we could all do right now to start trying. To lighten your load and those like you so yes. OK, that’s amazing. I’m really glad you brought that up. That’s, that’s so important for all of us to recognize that we don’t want to be confronted with our shadow. Like polygamy is a big old shadow, and we’d rather say, no, God wanted it that way because that gas, it’s gas, that’s gaslighting, right? Like this was God’s God wanted it. We don’t know why. No, that’s gaslighting. It was never. And so, um, so Alicia, uh, how can people get a hold of you or get help from People from you or people in your practice, people like you.

[2:13:50] Alisha Worthington: So I work at it’s called the Healing Group and it’s in Midville, um, but there are, we offer telehealth as well. I work with people all over the state of Utah, thank goodness for Zoom, um, so

[2:14:03] Michelle: all across the country I’m sure,

[2:14:05] Alisha Worthington: or unfortunately where your license is is where you get to practice. So I’m currently licensed in Utah and Alaska. So anybody from Utah and Alaska can work with you. OK. Um, but if somebody wants to email me about a question who doesn’t live in Utah, that’s fine. I’m happy to then say, hey, here’s a resource here in your state or your, I can help direct them. Um, so you would find me at the Healing Group, which is, uh, you can go online or you can email, they can email me directly, um, Alicia at thehealinggroup.com. Um, and then I’m on Instagram as, oh my gosh, what am I? Alicia Worthington educator. So I’m not super active on Instagram, but I am there and I can interact with people there too.

[2:14:53] Michelle: OK, and if people want to, I hope, have you come speak on a 5th Sunday or. Yeah, you know, they can just reach out to you that way and ask and you’d be happy to go and just in closing, I just have this last thought because I’m thinking of the poor bishops who might feel a little beat up and that was not our intention, you know, what, what advice do you have or count like like what guidance do you have to help people that are put in these difficult situations to be able to do the most good and the least harm.

[2:15:27] Alisha Worthington: Yes, I, I think what it is, I’ve worked with several bishops who are wonderful and really trying to do exactly that. I want to do the most good with and the least harm. And helping them understand, they’ll ask me, OK, what’s my lane? When am I crossing into therapy that I know nothing about. And so we will talk through different circumstances and mostly if they can provide, cause they get very little training on this. I feel such compassion for bishops who are just thrown in and here. What I hear, but what I’m trained to hear and what I’m trained to work, they hear this and they’re like, uh, I I don’t know, um, and they’re trying their best. So they can recognize, oh, this is going, this is more than just prayer. Like if there’s something doctrinal they can share, fantastic. If there is something from the scriptures they can share to help, fantastic. But then to say, you know, this is out of my scope. I’m a bishop. I’m not a therapist. I’m not a professional. I’m, I’m a professional plumber. I’m not a professional therapist. I am your pastoral leader right now, and so this is what I can offer you. I can offer you pastoral care. If you need more, here’s a resource like here a therapist that I know that I trust or whoever. But it’s really

[2:16:48] Michelle: can. That’s what they can do

[2:16:51] Alisha Worthington: and understanding like what is within their scope and what isn’t. And I think because

[2:16:55] Michelle: really bishops, bishops are asked to hold a very large shadow as well.

[2:17:01] Alisha Worthington: They, they are, and I think you look through human history, the wise person of the village has always played a very important role. The medicine person, the They’ve always, it’s a very important role of the village, and I think for a long time bishops fulfilled that role for the community. Um, And now I do feel like well trained because unfortunately there are not good therapists out there. I do feel like well-trained therapists can now hold that space for the for the community at large. Like we’re the little wise people of the village, the bishops can stay more in their lane of gospel teachings and helping people

[2:17:44] Michelle: with the youth and

[2:17:46] Alisha Worthington: yeah, yep,

[2:17:47] Michelle: they don’t have to

[2:17:48] Alisha Worthington: carry this, yeah, just refer out.

[2:17:51] Michelle: OK. OK, OK, that’s good and always do everything you can. First of all, remember the importance of repair, right? That’s one of our themes for parents with children, couples, and church reactions like actually a repair can make a relationship way stronger than it. was before the breach, right? So, so there’s always repair and always lean. I’m always wanting people to lean into curiosity and compassion and understanding rather than blame, judgment or counsel, right?

[2:18:23] Alisha Worthington: Yes, yes, yes, that creates charity.

[2:18:27] Michelle: Right, that’s for all of us as parents and spouses and church leaders, so. Thank you so much for sharing all of this with us. It has been so enlightening. Just, I think, like, who knew how much we need sex therapists in our community. So thank you for all that you do. Thank you for the people you help and the shadow that you carry, and thank you for talking to me today. Thanks

[2:18:52] Alisha Worthington: for having me on, Michelle. I really have loved this and love that I love your work and the light that you are trying to bring. And I love that like I wanna go back in time to our young moms and be like, guess what, guess where you’re gonna be in 20 years. I know, I don’t think they would have believed it.

[2:19:13] Michelle: It’s amazing. It is, it is really amazing. Boy, life’s an adventure. So, OK, well, I will talk to you soon. So have a great night. Thanks. Bye. I know that was a long conversation and I was going to cut it into two parts, but I just thought it went better as a whole, so I decided not to, and I also didn’t want to cut it down cause I. Wanted it all to be there. So anyway, I thank you so much for joining us again, let’s have a really good conversation in the comments. There are so many things to talk about here and um I would love to know if you would like to hear from Alicia or other um people in her field again so we can continue to broach these difficult but incredibly important topics. Thank you so much for being here and I’ll see you next time.