61: Easter, Esther, and the Goddesses | 132 Problems: Revisiting Mormon Polygamy

Please consider supporting this podcast:

Ugh, the crooked camera….

Links

Pope Gregory I statement
Metamorphosis
Lorenzo Snow talk on Esther, Oct 5, 1882, JoD vol 23, pg. 288

Transcript

[00:00:00] Welcome to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon Polygamy, where we explore the scriptural and theological case for plural marriage. I always recommend listening to these episodes from the beginning so you understand the foundation that we’ve already laid. But I want to thank you for joining me for this special Easter Sunday episode. I thought quite a bit about what to release on Easter. I have some episodes ready to go, but it just didn’t feel Right to release something normal and just completely ignore Easter. So as I pondered and prayed and thought, my thoughts turned to Esther. So I know that’s maybe somewhat unconventional, but I’m excited to take you along this journey that I’ve gone on this week, preparing to talk about Esther on Easter. So thank you for joining us as we take this deep dive into the murky waters of Mormon polygamy. For those of you watching this, the day it’s released, Happy Easter. Thank you for sharing this Easter Sunday with me, and for those who are following up, Happy Easter. I hope you had a wonderful day. It’s been hard to realize that it’s Easter as I’m looking out this window that looks much more like Christmas. We have had record breaking snowfall in Utah this entire all of March and April, but certainly this last week it has been. Crazy blizzard after blizzard when I just have inches and inches of white snow everywhere. So that’s kind of fun, but nevertheless, it is Easter and it’s been a good journey for me. I know we all love Easter and I’ve thought about it so much in the past, but really I’ve kind of approached it a different way this week in preparing for this episode. So that’s what I’m hoping to share to you. I hope I share with you. I hope it will be interesting. But it really, as I’ve studied, well, let me just break to it. I, I started to, I’ve been thinking about so many different things and as I was thinking about Easter and praying about what I should talk about, um, just all of these different ideas came to mind, some of them being The goddesses, right? Ishtar. Um, we, we spell it Ishtar, but apparently it was pronounced Ishtar and Isis and many of the others we’re going to get into that, but I started to think, why is it called Easter? That’s so interesting. I hadn’t thought about that before or studied it out. So that’s part of what I want to share and many, many other things. And then in thinking about Easter, I naturally started thinking about Esther and wondered why her name was so similar to Easter and started. Delving into that and then I realized I’d never done an episode on Esther, which is shocking and more shocking as I got in and studied it because Esther lived polygamy, right? So that’s why I am deciding that that was the train of thought I went on to make me talk about Esther on Easter, but I hope that you will um find it as insightful as I have found it. I think one thing that I love about Easter and and in this course of study, I’ve seen is how truly revolutionary Christianity is in our concept of universal resurrection, which truly is what we celebrate on Easter, right? Jesus overcame death, not just for himself, but for all humankind to to enable all of us to be resurrected, to be redeemed from the dead, right? And that is That that as I’ve studied this week, in contrast to all other ancient religions where resurrection or eternal life,

[00:03:31] immortality or returning from the underworld was reserved for just the very, very. You, most elite, um, gods or godly heroes, right? And, um, there was no concept. Everybody else who died would just spend, I guess, the rest of eternity in the somewhat murky, um, dark, questionable underworld. It didn’t look like a joyful experience, right, for, for all of humankind. I maybe I’m, maybe I’m sure there’s a lot more that I haven’t understood, but that’s what I’ve seen so far. And then all of a sudden we have This story where all of us are redeemed, where nobody spends eternity in the murky dark underworld, but we all are brought back to life, and then we add to it with our loved ones, with our families where we continue on to grow and progress. It’s, it’s really Like Jesus democratized redemption, right? Resurrection. And that is an amazing thing that makes Christianity truly unique and beautiful in so many ways. I think, as I was reading, I just wanted to share cause I don’t think that anything sums up Easter better than 1 Corinthians chapter 15. I’ll start in verse 20. But now is Christ risen from the dead and become the first fruits of them that slept, right, not the only one. We’re not just putting stars of Him up in the sky to portray his hero heroism. He is doing it in service to all of us, for since by man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead, for as In Adam I’ll die even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Behold, I show unto you a mystery. We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed, for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin and the strength is. The strength of sin is the law, but thanks be to God which giveth us the victory through Jesus through the our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, and immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, for as much as ye know that your labor is not in vain in the Lord. I just loved that because as I was studying these ancient religions that had A great, a much greater presence of goddesses than we have any familiarity with seeing this contrast and um how the promise of Jesus Christ is to each of us, to all of us, right, not just for this life, but for the next. It was really, really beautiful. And so I want to talk about that that’s one of the huge differences I saw that made me actually think, and I’ll get into this a little bit later, but

[00:06:35] In a way, all of these more primitive religions may have been pointing toward a fulfillment, right? Because there are a fulfillment in Jesus Christ, that’s at least one way to look at it. Um, the story of Jesus Christ, um, of Jesus being born of Mary and the Son of God, that is not at all unique in all of these religions. There are so many stories of Um, well, of all of these elements of a son of God or a God dying, going to the underworld, being there for three days, coming back to life, right, returning, um, there are so many stories of, of God, um, having A child with a mortal woman, right? And that child being a hero that did that that these things exist in, I know some of you might be remembering some of the Greek religion that we might be more familiar with, but it’s in all kinds of ancient religions. Sumerian, Babylonian, um, again and again, they show up as we, as we discover more things. And so, In so many ways, Jesus was the story of Jesus was building on very familiar themes, right? It was, it was repeating things that had been done many, many times before. I think that that’s, that’s pretty cool actually. So we’re gonna talk about that. I’m gonna try and I’m a little bit discombobulated today, so if I’m a little tearful or it’s uh I didn’t wanna. It’s my, um, it’s my little girl’s 3rd birthday, the day that I’m recording this leading up to Easter, so I wanted to get it recorded, but if I’m a little teary, I already get criticized sometimes that I cry too easily, so I’m trying not to, but, um, it’s kind of a special day for me and I am dedicating this episode in large part to her. So, um, you know, it’s, it’s a good religion that we have that we believe in. Redemption, the redemption of the dead. So, um, anyway, and as I said, as I was thinking about Easter and started thinking about all of these different things, I discovered how interesting all of this is. This is all interesting from top to bottom. There are so many things that I hadn’t thought of before and hadn’t started out before. So, first of all, let’s talk about Easter, right? It’s, it is really the most important Christian holiday. I know that Christmas is a bigger celebration culturally, but really celebrating the redemption is what gives the birth its purpose, right? And so that celebrating resurrection, if we didn’t have the resurrection, then the birth wouldn’t of the birth of Christ wouldn’t matter nearly so much. And so Um, I,

[00:09:04] I, I, I, I just found all of this fascinating. It is celebrated all over the world and it usually coincides with the Jewish Passover, right? And there’s symbolism for us as Christians with that as well, with the um death passing over the the posts of the doors were painted with lamb’s blood, right? And, and, um, so, so we see a lot of similarity between Passover and Easter, even though Jews don’t, you know, have any use for Easter, they continue to celebrate the Passover, but They, um, they, they coincide with each other most of the time, and that is really interesting for so many reasons we’re going to get into. But another thing, Mormons, I know that I’ve been invited to many seders, is that how we say them, um, the Jewish festivals, right? So we do really connect, especially as Mormons, I think, more than just as Christians to our Jewish roots because That’s the, we, we are very much into covenants and into other more ancient traditions that I think the rest of the Christianity doesn’t have as much connection to as we do. So I think we are much more connected to the ancient um Jewish religion. But what I found interesting as I was wondering why Easter is called Easter. What does that have to do with resurrection and especially where it sounds exactly like these goddesses, right? Why do we have this Christian holiday named after goddesses? Trying to think that through, and I found out I looked it up and and in every other language pretty much except German, and we’ll talk about that in every language other than German. The word for Easter is exactly the same as the word for Passover. It comes from the um Greek and Latin root pasca Pasca or pasta, whichever way you pronounce it. And um so I know in Spanish it’s pascua I think is Easter, and it’s the same in every single. religion you can hear, I mean every single language you can hear pasa as the root word, the Greek and Latin root for what they call Easter, which is the exact same word that they use for Passover. Isn’t that interesting cause that’s what Pasca means in Greek and Latin it means the Passover. And so only English has its own name and it’s it so so in every other religion it’s just lumped in by by name at least with the Jewish holiday, right, except for in English and German. And so that was really interesting to look into it and of course all of this is hotly contested because it seems that, you know, it’s easy to feel threatened, right? And I think that a lot of Christians feel threatened by ideas that might That that our religion isn’t just this completely pure thing that has not been touched by anything else in culture and and that it has to be something completely different. I think that’s unreasonable and unrealistic. Of course we know that cultures always blend in together and we all right everything we have is handed down, which is part of why we’re going to talk about the stories that coincide or have a lot of similarity with the story of Jesus, right?

[00:11:58] And so. Um, so, so, also, also when we look at Easter or Pasca and Pascua in different languages, um, it is challenging and problematic. Nowhere in the biblical record is there any use of rabbits or eggs symbolically, right? Those, however, are very common and profound symbols in other religions. It’s obvious to see the um. Connection to fertility, right? The animals come back from their hibernation, they’re there in the spring and so so and and rabbits are the perfect symbol of fertility and eggs also are a symbol of new life of fertility, right? All of this coming back. So it is interesting that our celebration of rebirth of redemption coincides coincides with the ancient. Um, celebrations of the spring equinox, which was usually a fertility festival, uh, that celebrated the goddesses, the goddesses of fertility, because almost always it was a goddess that was the symbol of fertility, right? of new life. And so that is really interesting and that includes Ishtar. Easter, right? There’s also apparently Bede was a BEDE was a monk, a historian that talked about a German Germanic goddess named as Oster and connected Easter to her. That’s, again, contested. It’s all, it’s all really confusing, but there are definite connections that we can all see, so I don’t want to get too much down into the weeds. But we do know, just like with Christmas, right? It, Christmas isn’t actually The birth of Jesus, as we talked about in my episode on Christmas, right? It was the church’s attempt to incorporate what was already happening in the society and change it and redirect it into Christianity. So it was actually the winter solstice, the Yule that was celebrated every year. And that was a huge celebration, and they just let them continue to have the celebration, but gave it a new theme. And I see similarities with Easter. And so Although I guess that the resurrection, I, I haven’t, some of you know more about this than I do, but I believe that we do believe that the resurrection occurred in early April, right? So it at least coincides that way. But still, it was a fertility festival that was always celebrated at this time of year that has been handed down and influences us still to this day. So I wanted to read, I found something really interesting talking just about this concept of incorporating in other traditions. This was a letter. by Pope Gregory the first, um, he was, it was near the end of the 6th century, and he states this plan explicitly, he’s writing to, um, some of his people that are going into these other places, and he, he says to let the people keep their temples and festivals

[00:14:47] but replace the meaning and purpose of them. So this is where I’m quoting. He says, we let them keep them, converting them from the worship of demons to the service of the true. He goes on and even says to allow them to keep their sacrifices, but also incorporate them. He says they will sacrifice and eat the animals, not any more as an offering to the devil, but for the glory of God, to whom is the giver of all things, they will give thanks for having been satiated. Thus, if they are not deprived of all their exterior joys, they will more easily taste the interior ones, for surely it is impossible to to efface at once everything from their. Strong minds. Just as when one wishes to reach the top of a mountain, he must climb by stages and step by step, not by leaps and bounds. Isn’t that interesting? So that’s where it was explicitly stated, this plan, to let them keep doing their traditions, but just give them a new purpose. And it’s interesting how that has continued. I think that they, I think it sounds to me like they were hoping we’ll gradually get them more and more in line with what we think they should be, but it seems that You know, these things have stuck around for thousands of years. Isn’t that fascinating? So anyway, that’s why we have these traditions or these celebrations that coincide with the old pagan religions that we call them. And I think maybe that’s too demeaning how we look at that, but um we they coincide with both paganism and Christianity. Isn’t that, I just think it’s fascinating. So um let’s see what I was going to, I just lost my spot a little bit. Um, oh, OK, yeah, so as I was saying that people tend to somewhat feel defensive or take offense at these ideas of the similarity between the older religions and Christianity. I think I personally see that as a mistake. I think there is so much we can learn, and the more we learn about these ancient traditions that are often echoed in Christianity, the more we can learn about our own religion and our own thoughts and where we and and ourselves and where we’ve come from, right? We can learn how we fit in with the The bigger picture of humanity throughout the history of the world. I think it enriches us, it doesn’t threaten us. So that’s my suggestion is to, if you start to feel like, oh, uncomfortable, if you, if anyone feels inspired to go look deeper into these things. I think dive in and ask for discernment, right, right, rather than that’s always my method though, rather than feel like, oh no, that’s threatening, that can’t be accurate. So I don’t give a lot of credibility to the Christians that try to argue against these ideas just for the sake of those were wrong and we’re right. So therefore they can’t be connected in any way. Like, no, I mean we have bunnies and eggs, right? And it’s called Easter and it’s celebrated. At the spring equinox, there are connections whether we like it or not. And so, um, but what I have also thought about and found interesting is we did have this tradition in humanity of the goddesses. There were just always goddesses and they were the symbols of life and rebirth and,

[00:17:48] you know, in a way resurrection cause all of the earth dies over the winter and is reborn in the spring, and that’s when we celebrate it, right? And so. It’s interesting to think again what happened and where is truth and where is error. Did they perhaps have connections to things that we are missing now and I’m not, please don’t hear that I’m like. Converting or wanting people to convert to paganism, what do they call it Wicca, Wiccan Wicca, you know, not at all. No, I’m just thinking it’s interesting that there always were these female goddesses, these female divinities that we now have no access to, no awareness of, and no use for in a way. And I wonder If that is so, like I said, I believe, we believe that God has will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God. And just like ancient religions pointed to Jesus Christ and had a lot of similarities. Maybe there are some similarities or some some echoes, things that point that would be useful to us. I don’t know. I just find it fascinating and intriguing and And I wanted to look into it a little bit more. So, um, that’s, that’s what I think we’re going to do. So to talk about some of the similarities, right, how Christianity fits within this broader sociological context, I think that um the the examples are endless of things that were echoes in Jesus Christ that had already happened. For example, um, I’ve read a book. Oh, I won’t remember what it’s called, but you can, you can find information anywhere. Dionysus, the god of wine, right? He was a very, the, the gods and goddesses shifted over time. Some of them incorporated all of the others, you know, so one of the main gods was Dionysus, I believe, at the time of Jesus Christ in that culture, he was the god of wine, right? And he did many miracles with wine, creating wine. There’s even a play written where his mother. At a wedding feast, they ran out of wine and she came and talked to Dionysus and said, create wine. There are of course differences, but you can hear these echoes, right? And John, I believe, is the only one that talks about Jesus with the miracle of the wine. And perhaps in part, he was going to these people who worshiped Dionysus and helping them make the connection that Jesus Christ is the God, not Dionysus, right? Like there are, there are just really cool ways to look at this from these stories, so we can see that there are, as I said, so many stories of um immortal like like of gods having. Children having sons with mortal women, right?

[00:20:24] And um that and even the immaculate conception is not that there’s a rich history of that in other religions. And so, um, all of these things are really interesting that that’s the story we’re going to talk a little bit about Isis and Horace and the similarities between Mary and Joseph. It’s, it’s really interesting. And so I think that Part of that motivation in the early church, the Catholic Church, to move Mary to an almost divine status, right? She’s, they pray to Mary, she’s she’s almost given a divinity and, and then we definitely know all of the artwork. Part of that might have been to sort of echo the the religions that had the goddesses, right? And that’s, that’s really interesting. So I just found These this artwork fascinating that I’m showing you here. These actually all are pictures of Isis with Horus or other gods with their goddesses with their sons. These are not actually Mary and Jesus, but you can see the massive influence, right? We actually in our in Christianity in the Bible, there isn’t. This focus on Mary as um the mother. We just have one book that teaches us, I believe Luke, right, that teaches us about Jesus’s birth, and then we do have Mary talked about, but there’s not this focus on her nursing Jesus, which there is in these other stories. That um that were recreated in art, right? And so you can see how here you can see where the similarity that again the art is sort of incorporated and we do the same art, but now it’s about Mary and Jesus, not about these other goddesses. Isn’t that fascinating? And so you can go on and see a lot of the similarity in even the iconography and the art that um You know, that was used to teach the religion to an illiterate population. And so I, I just think that that’s actually amazing to see that that’s where we get even our pictures. So, um, we have some, some hints of Of the goddesses. Um, I know that Jeremiah talks about the Queen of Heaven twice. Of course, you know, it’s talked about dismissively as people are worshiping false gods by doing their celebrations to the Queen of Heaven, but these are the goddesses that it’s talking about. So this was always sort of The cultural context that the that the one true God was revealed in. But even studying out more, there’s so much more I need to learn about because even the ancient Canaanites, the ancient Hebrews worshiped a plethora of gods, right? And they had like like Elohim is the plural, right? They had the um oh, I’m embarrassed that I can’t think of her name, Ashira, maybe Ashtra. Um, set in different ways that was the mother god, right? And so we’ll we’ll get into it a little bit more. Ashira,

[00:23:19] yep, she was the, the mother of the gods and so it’s really complex to try to narrow it down to there’s just always been this one way to see this one true God because it’s always blended in in different ways over time and even now we have the same confusion where The idea of the Trinity is the way to get around having a plethora of gods, but only one god, right? It’s, it’s 3 and 1 and 1 in 3, and, and then as Mormons we take flak that we believe in more than one God cause we don’t believe in the trinity that they’re all the same embodiment. And so it’s something that we’re still struggling with this with today like do we have one true God or is there room for more gods and then, you know, in our unique theology where we believe in a heavenly mother and I, I think that that introduces more complexity into it. So it’s, I think a mistake to think we have it nailed down. We understand it perfectly. We know exactly what it is, and that’s all there is to know. I, I think that that is, that’s the pride that we’re always warned against in the Book of Mormon, right? I have no need for more answers cause I already know what I need to know. I feel exactly the opposite to say. Oh, we need so much more light and knowledge to help us understand this. So, um, there are, there are stories in the, um, ancient Canaanite religion of the burning bush being a representation of a female god of Ashira, right? Because she was represented in trees, she was represented in fire. In fact, to the, um, oh my gosh, I can’t think of the words. It’s my brain is too tired. The um the candles that they light in in Jewish synagogues, I, I see, I’ll always think of these words later and just want to want to be so upset that I didn’t get them in the time. But anyway, those lights represented Ashira, right, the mother god, so when you have a burning bush, that is like. A double or triple symbol of the feminine divine and so many people have read that book. I read that symbol in that way. It’s, it’s very complexity. I mean there’s a lot of complexity, it’s very complex and so um. We are still, even in our world today drawn to these symbols of the goddesses, right? If, um, like the Starbucks logo, the Statue of Liberty, the um movie companies at Columbia, the goddess of Columbia, we still have a fascination and we are drawn to these images, I think in many more ways that we recognize. So. I don’t claim to know what this means, but I think that, you know, it’s kind of like when you try to suppress something, it kind of shines out in a bunch of different ways, right? That’s true in psychology when you try to just suppress something, it’s gonna come out in a lot of different ways. It’s better to open it,

[00:25:56] look at it, and integrate it, right? Incorporate it, and that’s what I think that maybe we’re on sort of a journey that God is helping us to do with the feminine, with the feminine divine on all levels to try to figure out how to incorporate it. How does it fit in with our explicit beliefs? Where is the feminine and how does it fit in? I think that that’s important, important to understand. So as we are celebrating Easter, the celebration. Of life and fertility and rebirth that was either, you know, it’s we’re either celebrating the Christian resurrection or the spring equinox fertility and probably a blend of both of them and how it has been passed down to us. And it, it was, as you look through ancient cultures, this celebration was pretty much ubiquitous from what I’ve seen. It existed everywhere. The goddesses were celebrated and they usually were the goddesses of love, beauty, fertility, and also war. Isn’t that interesting? Like they usually represented all of those things. So from the various different cultures from the past. Some of their names were Ishtar, Inana, Ashira, Astarde, Ashrath, Venus or Africa. Didi, um, Etura, which or ostra, which is what has become Easter, right, and there are so many others. And so I found this amazing while I was doing this studying, I found this amazing ancient Roman novel called Metamorphosis. I think it’s also called the Golden Ass someone referred to it that way, but I think it was originally called Metamorphosis, which means like. Transition change, right? And um it’s the only ancient Roman novel written in Latin that survives in its entirety. Isn’t that fascinating? It was written by the the version we have was written by Apuleus, I think it’s how you say his name, but it’s an adaption of an earlier Greek work written by Lucius of Patrae or Patra, however you say it, and Lucius is the name of the protagonist, lead leading me to believe that it was at least originally written. Intended to be an autobiography, right? I autobiographically, so. It’s this fascinating book. Lucius is a nobleman who has turned into a donkey, and um so he becomes, you know, again, if you want to look at the symbolism of this, right, incorporate it into he becomes asleep or a dumb beast, he has to go through all of society being treated. He was a nobleman, so now he has to experience the life of basically a slave or a beast of burden, how they were all treated. And um it’s it it’s, it’s really interesting and then at in the end of the novel when he has just reached his end, he is begging in despair. It says, it says that I plunged myself 7 times into the water of the sea, which number 7 is conveniable and agreeable to the holy and divine things as the worthy and sage philosopher Pythagoras hath declared. Now isn’t that interesting? Again and again I am finding these comparisons dip 7 times in the water, right? And that 7 is this symbol of of everything religious, but also of this miraculous healing that was done, right, the connections to Jesus.

[00:29:09] It seems so obvious that this was pulling on familiar symbols, familiar tropes. I, I guess I don’t want that to be a demeaning word, but things that people would have been familiar with and would have recognized as divine. And it’s fascinating to me that Pythagoras with his ancient geometry, happened on something and knew that 7 was an important number. That’s handed down to us, and we certainly have 7 as an important numbers in our religion today. So There are universal truths that seem to be able to be discovered in different ways. I think it’s really interesting. Anyway, continuing on. Lucius falls asleep and has a vision, and the goddess appears to him. This is what she says. Behold, Lucius, I am come. Thy weeping and prayers hath moved me to have hath moved me to succor thee. I am she that is the natural mother of all things, mistress and governess of all the elements, the initial progeny of worlds, chief of powers divine, queen of heaven, as she’s called in the Bible, right? The principle of the gods celestial, the light of the goddesses at my will, the planets of the air, the wholesome ones of the sea, and the silences of hell be disposed. My name, my divinity is adored throughout all the world in diverse matters, in various customs and in many names. For the Phrygians, for the Phrygians call me the mother of the gods, the Athenians Minerva, the Cyprians, Venus, the Canons, Diana, the Sicilians prosper. The Aleutians Ceres, some Juno, others Boona, others Hechety, and principally the Ethiopians which dwell in the Orient and the Egyptians which are excellent in all kinds of ancient doctrine and by their proper ceremonies accustomed to worship me do call me Queen Isis. Behold, I am come to take pity on thy fortune and tribulation. Behold, I am present to favor and aid thee. Leave I thy weeping. And lamentation, put away all thy sorrow, for behold the helpful day which is ordained by my Province. Therefore, be ready to attend to my commandment, and he gives her and he gives she gives him, see it’s hard to even say it instructions on how to be healed. I found that fascinating because it’s just this explicit statement of kind of what I was thinking about that all of these goddesses represent the same thing. They are all the same one and built in to this goddess that used to be. Visible in culture and in people’s experiences, right? They could have visions of the divine feminine and I again don’t know what to do with that. It’s all so tricky and messy cause it can sound like I’m saying, hey, let’s be pagan. I’m not. But I think there’s more for us to learn and there is something to me that is just beautiful and intriguing in this in in this writing. And so it is amazing that there was the presence and power of these female deities recognized in culture and allowed to exist, right? And um I, I think that that maybe that is still there, but it’s been so buried that it’s coming out in a million different directions and a million different ways and maybe we could start looking at it and considering. I, I at least think it’s interesting. So anyway. Easter and Ishtar is something that I can’t, I don’t think we should just ignore, right?

[00:32:25] There is something there. I think there’s an undoubted, undoubtedly a connection. So maybe this is one of the ways that that feminine continues to shine through that we can’t quite get all the way rid of it. Like I think when we um look at the Book of Mormon and it has books um that it refers to in the in the brass plates that we don’t have in the Old Testament. And, and it’s like they were able to get a lot of the stuff out of there that they didn’t like if it was plain enough. But Isaiah survived, right? And Isaiah teaches the things, um, but they’re veiled enough. They it teaches the same things about the coming of Christ and about the need for all institutions to repent that that people are uncomfortable with, but because It was so veiled it was able to survive. And I kind of think in a way maybe we have hints that come to us in different ways, just like the story of Adam and Eve and how Eve led out and was the acting force in doing God’s will in that story. It survived cause it’s not quite as explicit, right? And maybe Easter is another one of those things. I don’t know. But anyway, so as I was thinking about Easter, I did go, Esther. OK, that’s interesting. Why is Esther called Esther? Is that the same connection to Ishtar, or, you know, that’s that’s another name for Isis, the mother of the gods, like, what’s going on here? Why do we have a book about Esther in our Bible along with our celebration of Easter? Really interesting. So I started to dive into Esther and realized, I like I said, she’s a polygamist wife and we haven’t talked about her and her story, and I think we should. So that’s where we’re going now. And, um, Esther. again, as I dove into Esther, I had no idea how much there was to learn about this amazing book that we have in the Bible. It’s, I did know it’s one of only two books named for women, Ruth and Esther, right? And, um, and that isn’t necessarily a huge deal. I like it. I like that the Bible has books named for women, but it’s not, there’s definitely not like a direct, um, correlation between the greatness of a person. And and whether or not they have a book written for them. Jesus doesn’t have a book written in his name, right? And many, many others. And then we have deplorable characters that have books written in their name, you know, but I do like that. As I said in my episode on Soraya, I think that in some ways, the Book of Mormon is making even more plain what the Bible should have made plain, that we need the women, that the women are missing. There’s no book named after a woman in the Book of Mormon, but there are those two in the Bible, and they are interesting ones, right? So this, this is some of what I learned. There are actually multiple versions of Esther. The one we have in our Bible is actually a shorter later version. Um, there’s a longer Greek version version included in the Septuagint. And um it has a lot more um it it’s much more maybe apocryphal is the right word.

[00:35:16] It’s, it sounds some people compare it to Daniel. It starts out with Mordecai having profound visions and these, you know, sort of apocryphal experiences, and it goes on and talks about the fulfillment of those things. It’s much more has the feel of Daniel than the Book of Esther, which we have, which actually our our short book. Doesn’t mention God once. Isn’t that interesting? It talks about fasting, but it never refers to or demonstrates prayer. It never talks well, they do, they do fast for 3 days, but it doesn’t say they fast and pray. I guess we just always assume that they do. But it doesn’t talk about God explicitly, but God is, I think, woven in everywhere within it. But that’s a lot, that’s that’s kind of a cool thing to know. It also has been Both one of the most beloved books among the Jews and in Jewish culture, but also one of the most contested books, both by some in some Jews and by many Christians. Many people hated this book, thought it should not be in the Bible. There’s, there’s been a lot of Esther hatred over the centuries, which I also find really interesting that it’s been so hotly contested. I know, um, Martin Luther was one that just hated the book of Esther and wished that it didn’t exist. And so, But even those who have not found it valuable theologically or have found it to be of no worth, they, I think, even have to recognize its literary brilliance because it is an incredible story. When you dig in and read it, it’s just so beautifully, incredibly written. It has this Deep sense of irony that is so well done. It also is one of the best books of, um, chiasm that we have, you know, the ABC, climax, C, B, A, the, um, they both, the, the Jewish writing style that builds up to the climax in the center and have sort of mirror images of each other on each side. The book of Esther does that brilliantly, plus it adds in this additional element of this beautiful irony that’s really, you know, everything we’ll we’ll talk about it more, but everything that was supposed to happen that Hayman tried to do to Mordecai instead Mordecai does to Hayman, everything that was, you know, everything is a perfect mirror image, but putting a different victim on top or, you know, but. Switching the fortunes around. And so, so we’re going to talk about it a little bit because I didn’t know nearly this much about it. It actually is really underutilized in um in our, I think in probably a lot of Christian discussion, we, we don’t talk much about Esther. I’m not that familiar with all of the rest of it,

[00:37:48] but definitely in Mormonism, I searched for Esther. We’re going to talk about this a little bit, but she is not often talked about and definitely The broader story is not talked about very much at all. I admit I was surprised. I searched the entire Journal of Discourses for Esther, and she’s never talked about. I found one, she’s not even referenced more than, like, maybe 2 or 3 times. I found one talk that talked about her that was given by, oh, was it Lorenzo Snow? I’ll have to find it. It was, um, yeah, Lorenzo Snow, October 5th, 1882. And, um, this was eight years before the first manifesto, the 1890 manifesto. The Mormons were facing increasing persecution and threat because of polygamy, right? And Lorenzo Snow gives a talk about her that I, that I’ll talk about a little bit. It’s fascinating because I guess I would think that here we have Esther, this polygamist wife, right, this model polygamist wife that they, they could have talked about and I often they could have talked about her and her story often. The they, they, they were so like really desperately looking for any evidence of polygamy. They scoured the entire scriptures looking for evidence to support polygamy. They talk often about King David, right, and how Um, that badly twisting, what is it? Um, 2 Samuel 12:18. I’ll, I’ll go into more more depth on that in another episode, but badly misreading that to claim that God gave David his wives, right, that God’s polygamy was ordained, that David’s polygamy was ordained of God and was the model that all men should follow, and And it’s so ridiculous cause David’s polygamy was awful, right? Like there are a lot of similarities between Abisag and Esther, Abisheag Abhishag or Ahi Shag, however they have different pronunciations, but the young David in his old age sent the men throughout the kingdom to find the very most beautiful young virgins to come and be his wife, to lay beside him and keep him warm. It’s just so awful in every way, right? And All of David’s polygamy, um, Michael, that’s a horrible story. Bathsheba, that’s a horrible story really what what what David did to her, and yet, you know, we, we claimed that the only thing that David did wrong was Uriah. That’s what 132 teaches. The only mistake he made was killing Uriah, that was his sin, right? And so if we’re going to put David on this pedestal

[00:40:18] and ignore all of the actual facts about his polygamy and how women We’re treated then why don’t we also look at um well it’s Xerxes is the king that most people say I’ll have to get his name umhaus, ahairrus. I learned how to say it now I can’t remember King Ahairus and and um that’s how they say it, Ahairus I think is the king that is also referred to as Xerxes in some um. Uh, some translations of the book of Esther, right? And his he was a polygamist king, right? So just very similar to David. So it’s interesting to me that he was never mentioned by the polygamist. His polygamy was never talked about. I guess maybe it reflected too badly on polygamy in some ways that they couldn’t just ignore. Maybe it hit a little too close to home. I don’t know, but I find it to be fascinating and so. The, the, especially when you look through the Journal of Discourses and they went to such lengths to just they talk about monogamy with complete disdain, right? Like monogamous cultures are the worst. If you have monogamy, you you automatically have prostitution and all of these other things, as if those things don’t exist in polygamist cultures, right, as if they weren’t there with King Xerxes. I think I’ll call him Xerxes. You can know I’m talking about a Hairus, but it’s easier to say Xerxes, even though that’s not very easy to say either. Anyway. So, um, with how much they talk and they and they talk about how the Romans introduced monogamy. It didn’t exist until them and how depraved they were and how wrong that system is. So here they have this beautiful. Polygamist king and a polygamist culture that they could refer to and they never do, isn’t that interesting? After recording this episode, it occurred to me what may very well have been the reason that they never talked about Esther. She wasn’t a model polygamist wife. She disobeyed her husband by appearing before him without permission, and she made a request of him. She wanted him to do something for her. Both of those things from everything I have read were big no nos for polygamist wives, so that might very well be the reason that Esther was so ignored. I will tell you a little bit about the talk that um Lorenzo Snow gave, the only one that refers really in any depth to Esther. He talks to these um latter-day saints who are being persecuted because of polygamy. Right, and uses Esther to make his point. The irony in this is so thick, but he seems completely unaware of it. So it’s really interesting. So in the story of Esther, it was the Jews that were being persecuted, right? And it was the polygamist king who was threatening their lives. The Mormons were being persecuted because of polygamy. So really polygamy, it it it plays this different role in each story, but both in a bad way, right? But so he, um, Lorenzo Snow makes some very, he compares the Jews, the the Latter-day saints to the Jews, and then talks about Esther saving her people, and he makes some very ominous sounding but not very clear comparisons. So he says, notwithstanding our difficulties may appear very great,

[00:43:37] yet there will be means provided for our escape if we ourselves perform the duties incumbent upon us as the children of God. But it may be necessary in the future that and this and this is the point I wish to make for some of the saints to act the part of Esther, the queen, and be willing to sacrifice anything and everything that is required at their hands for the purpose of working out the deliverance of the latter day saints. OK, isn’t that interesting? I find myself wondering what, what does he mean? What is he saying? like Esther did risk her life for the sake of her people, that leaving off the irony that she was risking her life by approaching her polygamist husband, right? But he’s saying that people need to be prepared to risk their life or give their life and everything they have for the well-being of the latter-day saints. He doesn’t, he doesn’t explain what he’s implying, but he goes on to restate it multiple times. He says it is our business to step forward as did Esther, and be willing to risk all for the salvation of the people. In undertaking her her task, Esther said, If I perish, I perish. Here is a lesson for our sisters. So I again wonder what that means, how he’s expecting. I, I don’t know what he’s saying to the sisters, and he doesn’t clarify it. So it’s, it’s really interesting. I wonder how they would have taken that or heard that cause he does seem to be telling. The sisters, they need to be willing to sacrifice everything, including their lives for the sake of their community, which really means for the sake of polygamy, because polygamy was the reason that their community was being persecuted, right? And it’s really what their community stood for. And so this is so interesting because again, Esther’s life was at risk because she wanted to approach her polygamist husband without permission, right? But he’s kind of telling these women. They need to risk their lives to protect and defend their polygamist husbands. So, so it’s just a really, really odd usage that that doesn’t it it just kind of messes with your mind and you would again think that here he has. Esther, this polygamist heroine that he could talk about, but, but he doesn’t ever refer to her husband’s polygamy, you know, they always have these talks about that old polygamist and you know, they don’t talk about him at all, Xerxes or a Haus at all as a polygamist, which is really interesting. So I think it it it really is, it’s like polygamy in both of these stories is the problem. It’s the system that all of these women are trapped in that is forcing them to risk their lives, right? Whatever um Lorenzo Snow was implying here, they have to risk their life because of polygamy, and Esther had to risk her life in large part because of polygamy, right? And so, um, that was, that was the system that caused her to be in that situation, and he ignores all of that. And so it’s, it’s really fascinating that maybe a Haras is just too inconvenient of an example because he doesn’t. Paint polygamy in a good light, right? And so,

[00:46:42] um, so let’s get into a little bit into the book. Oh, and then also I looked, you can look in um our more recent the general conference, you can search the church website for general conferences referring to Esther. There aren’t a lot. The name Esther is mentioned, but Queen Esther is only mentioned a handful of times, and there are a lot of just other women whose names happen to be Esther that are referred to in talks. But talking about the biblical Esther and her story is actually not very common, more often than proportionally far more by women, you know, when you consider how few women speak at general conference, and most of the references to Esther are by women, so it’s really interesting. There have been Um, there was a more recent talk about Esther, but again, it never refers to the system that she was trapped in or to the victimization of women in this story. So that’s what we’re, we’re gonna dig into it and see what we can, we, what we can tease out of the story, right? So just as a quick recap, it, the story takes place after the diaspora, the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews. And, um, it’s about 100 to 120 years after the Book of Mormon begins, right? After. Just to put it in context for our brains. So after Lehi leaves Jerusalem, this is about 100 to 120 years later that, um, Jerusalem was already destroyed. Mordecai was probably a baby at the time of the of the being carried away into Babylon. And, um, and so Mordecai and Esther were dispossessed Jews, right? Living in Persia and Um, Esther was an orphan. Different accounts you can find different accounts. There’s nothing in the Bible, but it, but they say that her like the Jewish writings say her father died while her mother was pregnant, and then some say her mother died in childbirth, some say her mother died when she was 8 or 9, but in any case, she had lost both of her parents. And so Mordecai took her in, and I found myself having a question because Mordecai, his family is never mentioned. We know that at the time of the diaspora, um. The captives, the young men who were left alive but taken captive, were you were often made eunuchs, right? And they were, that’s what um I think it was the case with Daniel and Shadrack, Michek and Bendigo. They would have been castrated and so I found myself wondering that about Mordecai, and I think that there is evidence for that. He has no family and he is allowed access to the harem, right? He’s he’s allowed to um be at the gate of The, the harem where the women are kept and that’s really he’s allowed to communicate with Esther, right? And so I don’t, I mean through messengers usually, but, but, um, anyway, something to think about that’s interesting, but in any case, he adopted Esther and raised her as his own daughter. And so, um, there’s another comparison here that I just found interesting that there is a commonality that it is always

[00:49:23] the orphaned girls that are at most risk. From polygamy, right, because they don’t have the protection of a father, that was definitely the story with my great great grandmother. And if you look through our church history, the young unprotected girls were the ones who were more readily available to be taken and given as wives to the older, powerful men, because if they had a father, especially a father who had some power himself, they were better protected. So, um, that’s another similarity that I found, uh, kind of pulled up my heartstrings. That was Esther as well. And so at least the very least, if the polygamist women had access to her story, they could at least, um, you know, commiserate. With her and so she’s introduced at the beginning as Hadassa, that’s how she’s introduced in chapter one, her Jewish name, but. Um, from what I’ve read, most scholars think that was added later to kind of, um, to buoy up her Jewishness, right? That was added by Jewish writers later. In any case, the book is called The Book of Esther, so her name is Esther. That’s how she comes to us and how we known how she’s known. So we’re actually gonna talk first about the other woman in this book who I think deserves so much credit and attention and who No one even knows her name. She’s so ignored, but it’s the first queen, Queen Vashti, and she is a rock star. She is one of my heroines. She’s so awesome. She and really reading about her, she’s the perfect Rorschach test for all of us. Like what we see in Vashti tells us more about ourselves, right, than even about her story because she stood up to her husband’s unrighteous demands and in a culture where Dis disobeying your husband was the worst thing a woman could do as we talked about again in the in the episode on Soraya, but also throughout time, I, I wanna do another episode kind of cutting slack, cutting some slack to our early leaders because of how these ideas came down from long before them about the place of women and the role of women and the subservience of women. And so, um, it’s really interesting to see how people talk about and interpret Vashti, right? But here’s the situation. So her king, it goes, her husband, it goes on to talk about how great this king is, how many he rules the entire earth. He has all of the fortune, all of the wealth that just goes on and on describing all of it. He gives this 128 day feast, something like that, 100 anyway, well over 100 day feast to all of his princes and his, you know, to celebrate. ate his most recent conquering of whatever peoples that he’s raping and looting their land to pay for this lavish showing off, basically, right? So then he gives a second feast that’s a 2nd day, a 7 day feast where everyone has a unique handcrafted golden goblet,

[00:52:11] and the the official law passed by the king is that everyone can drink as much as they want. No one’s allowed to tell anyone they’ve had enough, right? But apparently this is just the men. In this 7 in this feast, I think these feasts were for the men, and at the same time Vashti is giving a feast for the women in a different location, right? So after 7 days of this drunken debauchery. And the king showing off all of his possessions, all of his wealth. Then he decides to show off his greatest possession, which is his beautiful queen, Queen Vashti, right, his favorite wife, she’s the queen, he has an entire harem, but it’s Vashti that is the queen. And so he sends his 7 eunuchs, and we’re going to pause and talk about eunuchs in a second. He sends his 7 eunuchs to go summon Queen Vashti to wear her. and can be displayed before all of the drunken men. So we’re going to get back to that. But first, I want to talk about eunuchs, because as we’ve talked about all of these men being castrated, right? Eunuchs were a big part of these cultures. And I think it’s so clearly these cultures solution to the problem of polygamy. When there’s polygamy, there are not enough women to go around when the powerful men take all of the women, right? So the solution in different cultures and in Like in Mormon culture, it’s the Lost Boys. That’s what they’re called, that’s what people have titled then looking at the FLDS, but from my own family history, if you look into your own family history, I think you will see a lot of similarities. They have to find ways to get rid of the excess men to make it possible for the powerful men to have so many women to take to take extra women and so. That’s, that was their, um, solution in these older cultures. I think it should tell us how awful and corrupt these cultures were. Talk about sexual violence, right? Casrating young boys, castrating men, like, uh, to allow the way for polygamy, not a good solution. None of these things are good solutions. We can see God’s hand all through this trying to teach us truth, right? And anytime you go away from truth, you have to come up with horrible. Horrible solutions to the problems that you cause. And so the eunuchs was one of those problems. And so anyway, this is another problem is seeing women as possessions. He’s showing off all of his possessions and so he’s going to show off his wife and Vashti. Bless her soul, says no, she will not demean herself to that extent to go be paraded around as an object of desire of ownership as like for all of these men to lust after her so the king can show off that he’s the one that possesses her. Um, I think this is amazing. Now, so much has been read into this. You can find Um, accounts that, um, like, like, you know, this was, it was the Jewish scholars that did the most, the earliest and most commentary on this,

[00:55:15] and then that we have more commentary. So there are a lot of commentaries that say That you know that hypothesized they people claim it factually. You can’t claim anything factually because all we have is this story, but that they say that since Vashti was told to wear her crown, they surmise that they surmise that that’s all that she was supposed to wear, so she was supposed to appear naked and that’s why she refused. There are others that claim that she was um. What else is that there are other claims that they make, and I will have to find those, but what I find interesting is that we have to come up with any excuse to make it to justify Vashti refusing. Here’s the account in the Bible, I guess I was going to read it. Um, this is Esther 1:10 through 12. On the 7th day when the heart of the king was merry with wine, he commanded the seven chamberlains, which is eunuchs, that’s the way that King James translates eunuchs, that served in the presence of Ahaharus the king to bring Vashti the queen before the king with the royal with the crown royal to show the people and the princes her beauty, for she was fair to look upon. But the queen Vashti refused to come at the king’s command. And his by his chamberlains, his eunuchs. Therefore, the king was very wroth and his anger burned in him. So all of this is just so interesting. As we see what happens, I find myself wondering if there are bigger things at play here, if there was a Sort of Evashti was sort of leading all of the women in a revolt to to demand better treatment on behalf of women. That’s possible from what happens. I don’t know for sure, but in any case, this was a big thing that she did. She risked her life and her well-being every much as every bit as much as Esther did does later on, right? She risks everything to say, I am not an object. I am a human being and I, as the queen, aside from even just being a, a human, a woman, I will be treated with dignity and honor that I deserve, right? That is the just awesome, awesome, um, feminine. assertion of her of setting boundaries, right, saying this is how I will be treated, and I think that that is a model for all of us to follow, all human beings, and especially women in this case, that if any women are experiencing any kind of abuse or demeaning or objectification to say, you know what, whatever consequences come, I am setting this boundary. I think there’s something powerful and profound in that that I really like. And so, um, let’s see what other things they explain. 00, that’s one of the other. I, I was trying to remember the other excuse that scholars have made or commentators have made for why she didn’t come and it’s that at this point in the party when the drunkenness and debauchery had reached this point is when they would call in the prostitutes, the dancing girls, the call girls, which also which also show us how. Depra the society was also need I point out polygamous society, they also are the ones that include the most prostitution, right? And um and so anyway, so that they say that Vashti,

[00:58:23] it was below her status to be called in at that point and that’s why she refused. Again, I just think that I think that we can just let Vashti. Be honored for setting a boundary as as just a woman without having to add other reasons to justify it to make it OK that she did this. I think that we should all honor the fact that she did this and have a ton of respect for her. And so, and in another huge irony in this story, because this adept king, this inept king insists on seeing his wife as a possession and his prized possession, he loses her. He is not able to possess her because women are not possessions, right? That’s what we’re trying to get through. Like, section 132 needs to pay attention and the polygamist, women are not possessions that can be possessed. We are Human beings with will, with wisdom, with intent, with as much worth as our counterparts, the, the men, our counterparts, right? And so when he tries to possess her, he loses her because he’s so angry and he has to go to his, he always has to go to his counselors to know what he should do. And this, this revolutionary refusal of Vashti shook them all to the core, which is why I wonder if there was more going on here. So because of the the response of the advisers, so this is what they say. Vashti the queen hath not done wrong to the king only, but also to all the princes and to all the people that are in all the provinces of the king Ahairus. For this deed of the queen shall come abroad unto all the women, so that they shall despise their husbands in their eyes when it when it shall be reported, that that, um, when it shall be reported, the king Ahaharus commanded Vashti the queen to be brought in before him, but she came not. Likewise, shall the ladies of Persia and Media say this day unto all the king’s princes which have heard of this deed of the queen. Thus shalt thou arise too much contempt and wrath. So do you hear this like. King, if you allow your queen to disobey you, all of our wives are gonna hear about it, and they’re all gonna think they can disobey us. You cannot let this stand, right? This shook them. Deep, like you have to make an example of your wife or our wives will start getting ideas that if we command them to appear before our drunken debauchery, that they, they also can refuse our boun our wives will think they can set boundaries, and that cannot be allowed, that cannot, cannot stand, right? You can hear how How scared they are. So it goes on from there and it’s, it’s so interesting to see how powerful they demand that they will be and how powerless they actually are, right? They have to have the king actually keep them in control because they are incapable of being a true husband who can. Collaborate and cooperate with his wife, right? They have to be the kings of their manner that all of their what women bow in subjection and submission to them and so. It actually gets worse because they go on and pass a law. Let me see where I can find it.

[01:01:41] Well, maybe I didn’t write it down, but they actually pass a law that says that every man must be the Lord in his own home and his wives must obey him. And so what a better way to demonstrate how little honor you actually have in your own home than to have the king pass a law telling your wives that you have to be honored in your own home, right? So that is the situation. But they have an actual law punishable. I don’t know how, but by the force of law, the women must obey their husbands, and Vashti is, she’s not, she’s not executed, which is good, but she is dethroned, deposed and exiled. That’s the price that she pays for asserting her basic humanity and um you know, we should look at her, I think, as a righteous martyr. It’s interesting to see all of the commentary and how How much Vashti is hated and demeaned and criticized. She is seriously demonized, but I think that. I think that we should look at her story a very different way. And so when we’ll move on with the story, when the king, you know, sobers up and realizes that he doesn’t have Ashti anymore, I think he’s really lonely and sad and wants his beautiful possession, his queen, who, you know, and maybe there was something more to her, this fact that she was willing to stand up to him. Maybe he respected her a bit. I don’t know, but in any case, he seems to Regret his decision. So again, enter the advisors with the solution. This is what they say in 22 chapter 2, verse 2. Let there be fair young virgins sought for the king, and let the king appoint officers in all of the provinces of his kingdom, that they may gather together all the fair young virgins unto hushan the palace, and that’s where the concubines are kept, the wives and concubines, to the house of the women, and to the custody. Of Hege, the king’s chamberlain eunuch, keeper of the women of the women, and let their things for purification be given them. That’s, that’s said interestingly, that’s in some translations, it’s, let them be given beauty treatments. It means let them be prepared for a full year for the king to, you know, to be in in sufficient condition for the king, and let the maiden which that the king be queen instead of Vashti. And the thing pleased the king, and he did so. So we need to really break this down. This is so euphemized and understated, what is actually happening. These girls were taken. He appoints people in all of the different villages to find the most beautiful girls and to take them away from their homes, away from their families, away from their lives, away from They’re intended, the young men who might want to marry them, right? They are taken, basically held captive cause no one had access to the king’s wives, to the harem, right? They were kept apart and it wasn’t that they were having this like full year-long spa experience for their sake. They were taken captive and spent a year

[01:04:39] being given oil of my and it we’ll talk about it a little bit and guarded over by these castrated men. Just for the sake of the king, right? The king was the only man that the only one that mattered and so it’s It’s, it’s wrong to look at this as some sort of a beauty pageant. They were competing to be chosen as the queen or to look at this in any way other than massive, massive. Um, well, it’s called by other people sex trafficking, right? They were like exploitation to the maximum degree. It’s, um, let’s read verses 12 through 14, tell us what was really happening. Now, when every maid’s turn was come to go into the king. To King Ahairus after she had been 12 months according to the manner of women, for so were the days of their purification accomplished, to wit 6 months with oil of my and 6 months with sweet odors and other things for the purification of the women. Again, other translations talk about cosmetics and different things. Um, then thus came every maiden unto the king who whatever whatsoever she desired was given her to go with her out of the house of the women unto the king. And to the king’s house. Again, that is tricky. And so the out of the women’s house she could take whatever she wanted with her. So maybe like whatever implement to please the king, you know, how do we make sense of that? It’s not that she was given a gift for her sake. She could choose something to take with her as part of her arsenal. In this sexual competition, right, in the evening she went, and on the morrow she returned into the second house of the women to the custody of Shakha, the king’s chamberlain which kept the concubines. So they were kept in the first house of women, the house of wives, right? They were taken in to the king to for one night, and then they were sent to basically the slave wives, the the second house where the concubines were kept. Um, she came in unto the king no more except the king delighted in her and that she were called by name. That’s what’s happening. This is it, it’s hard to overstate the horror of this, and it’s never talked about. I can’t find this talked about anywhere in any of our stories about Esther and any of the commentaries. We talk about, um, what’s it called? Noctus, I think the, the rite of the first night that was this horror in the Middle Ages that they talk about that the Lord of the manor had access to every wedding, to every maiden on her wedding night. He got her before the husband. We talked about that with such horror. It showed in. Oh, the show about Macbeth that I can’t think of with Mel Gibson, right? And, um, this was infinitely worse than that. That that was horrible, but this wasn’t just one night. These girls were taken. They were kidnapped and basically imprisoned in the palace. I’m sure they were treated, you know, with, with wealth and finery, but they couldn’t have a life. They couldn’t get married. They couldn’t raise a family. They were for all intents and purposes. slaves to the king. That’s, that’s,

[01:07:44] and then talk about it. And, and, and, you know, if you think about really what this was, was not a beauty pageant, which also I have my issues with, you know, but was, um, a sexual competition. The, the, I remember, I’ll see if I can find the clip, but the, some of the Kingston girls, some of the girls that escaped the Kingston clan talk about just kind of knowing inherently that they had to be Good and bad to, to have a, you know, to have any worth in their husband’s eyes. That’s basically what this was. So these young virgin girls, you have to wonder what kind of purification they were given, what kind of training they were being given along with their year-long purification in order to please the king. It is just horrific and awful, and yet it’s just told in this story as if it’s no big deal, and we just all get used to. Reading it and not seeing it. One writer, there has been now in this, you know, more feminist age, there have been more critiques of it. One writer called this the perfected institutionalization of rape, in which the king’s will is the only will, and that’s exactly what it is. These girls were competing sexually for their very lives and, and that was their only value. And that their lives were taken from them. They didn’t matter. You look at the mothers who lost their daughters, the mothers and fathers. Who lost the daughters, the children whose sister was taken, right? Or the young men in all of these villages who, yeah, you know, maybe were intended to some of these beautiful girls, the most beautiful girls from every single village was taken for the king to try out for one night to see if, if he wanted to keep her. He, she was kept in any case, but see if he wanted her again. It was absolutely awful. And I think, you know, to me there’s a comparison to be made here. We talk often about The terrible stories of the pharaoh or the king killing all of the baby boys at the time of Moses and the time of Jesus. And I think this deserves to be held in that same standing of horror that this king gathered up all of the young girls for this purpose. And really, you know, we have other stories like this, like The horrible genocides under King David and and other Jewish leaders where just the just the young girls were kept to be given as prizes of war, right? Like, I think we should see this all as horrific as it actually is and not just think, oh, it’s in the Bible, so it must be OK. It’s not. So this is um Marian Anne, um, what’s her last name? I just lost it. Marian Ann Taylor has done a lot of work on Esther, and this is something that she, that she says. It’s important to note that the text does not suggest that either Mordecai or Esther wanted Esther to be part of the plan to find a better queen for Xerxes. But once,

[01:10:31] once chosen, the doubly orphaned Esther behaves in a way consistent with other victims survivors of trauma. She goes on from there. I think that’s important to point out. That’s one of the points I’ve made about the women in early Utah, right? They were survivors of trauma. They were survivors in this trauma bonded situation. Um, she goes on to say that she knew what had happened to Vashti and used instead what John Howard Yoder calls revolutionary subordination. To survive and thrive in a situ in the situation in which she finds herself. So this does again, there’s a connection to be made here to women in these polygamist systems, powerless women. That had to compete through submission, right? Their their way to have any status or even have their needs met enough, uh, in many cases was to do whatever their husbands told them to do, to be the most obedient, the most pleasing, that was the best strategy they had. I think we need to apply that to the testimonies that women give. I made an episode on that. I think it’s I think it matters, and this is another account where that shows up. So, Esther, she was remarkably beautiful and that’s why she was taken into the palace, right? And her story in many ways reminds me of Daniel’s or um Um, Joseph in Egypt’s story that she always found favor. She was very beautiful just as they were. She was always rose to the top. It says in verse 15, Esther obtained favor in the sight of all of them that looked upon her, including Hagai, the, the, um, eunuch that was the ruler over the harem. And so he helped her. He gave her the very best positions. He gave her the he gave her hints. He told her what to take to please the king, like what gift to choose to take with her. And so in verse 16, so Estra was taken into King Ahahara’s in the royal house, and the king loved Estra above all the women, and she obtained grace and favor in his sight more than all the virgins, so that he set the royal crown upon her head and made her. Queen instead of Vashti. So she won this awful, awful competition. All of the other maidens lived the rest of their lives, I suppose, in that second house, the house of concubines, as unwanted, forgotten lost concubines. And so, um. That’s, this is another polygamous constant, how it talks about how she became, she was made queen instead of Vashti. That’s another consistent theme of polygamy is that the older women who began to know their minds and who maybe were willing to set boundaries, they were discarded and replaced by helpless, naive, malleable, powerless young. girls who knew nothing, right, and would never set a boundary. And so that’s, that’s the other type that is being fulfilled in the story of Esther, replacing Vashti, who, you know,

[01:13:25] woman was designed by God to be a help me. That’s translated. I, I, I’ll get into that a little bit more, but it means an equal, right, to be someone that is perfectly matched as in Um, like an equal partner, but also an opposite, right? So that you can contend and grow together with and develop, and that’s what, so as these women would start to help their get to a position where they could help their arrogant husbands develop some personal growth, they would just be discarded instead and replaced by other younger, more compliant and ignorant and naive girls. And so, OK, we’re gonna move on and just recap this story, right? We, um, Esther, um, so Mordecai is, it’s important probably to point out that Mordecai is a descendant of King Saul, right? And um Haman, the one who plots their death, is a descendant of Agag, the king that Saul is supposed to kill. So it seems that there’s a lot of generational animosity going on that probably contributes to Mordecai’s refusal to bow and to Haman’s anger and desire to kill all of the Jews because Mordecai won’t bow. So anyway, we go on, um. Haman is raised to be the top position, second only to the king, right is given the king’s royal signet. Everyone’s supposed to bow to him. Mordecai refuses to bow to him, and so Haman doesn’t want to just kill Mordecai. He wants to kill all of the Jews. That’s how this awful edict comes about. Now there is again a huge irony here, right? Mordecai, we sort of honor Mordecai for his refusal to demean himself, simply to bow to Haman. And yet Esther, he also, he also reveals um that he’s a Jew, and that’s why, you know, that gets back to Hayman, and that’s why Haman wants to kill all of the Jews. At the same time, Esther is told to not reveal that she’s a Jew and not just is like Mordecai won’t even bow to Haman, yet Esther has to give herself over completely to the bed of the king, right? Like. Vashti sets one boundary, and she’s demonized. Mordecai is honored for the boundary he sets to to not bow down to the second in command of the king. And yet, Esther is supposed to completely be submissive. I just find this to be really complicated. The massive double standard between men and women. It’s actually Mordecai’s refusal, and maybe there’s honor in that, but maybe it’s pride, you know, I don’t know. Like, I’m not bowing to. The son of to an agogite, you, you know, who knows, that’s what causes this whole mess. It’s Mordecai’s refusal to bow that causes the edict to be written against the Jews that Esther has to risk her life to clean up,

[01:16:12] right, to fix, and so she has to completely. Submit herself in every possible way, but Mordecai is allowed to stand up, right? Vashti and Esther aren’t. I think that that is a double standard that we should pay attention to. I think it it it’s, it’s really confusing and it really matters. And so anyway, that’s a complicated thing that I think deserves a lot more. Parsing out to see the double standard between the submissiveness of men and women and how we honor Mordecai for for setting a boundary, and we demonize Vashti for it, and Esther isn’t even allowed to anyway, it’s real if you consider the amount of of of how much they have to be demeaned, right? And so anyway, it goes on. Mordecai, he’s very worried about Esther apparently or very eager to find out, you know, how she’s doing, but he’s at the gate often and overhears a plot to kill the king. He tells Esther, and Esther warns the king in Mordecai’s name, says Mordecai, let me know of this plot. Right, and so the king is saved and then um letters go back and then Haman is raised plans to kill the Jews, how’s the kings, this king really seems to be an inept king. Some people think that this was written in part to demean these kings that have the Jews in um captivity, right, to paint them as just Awful. And so, um, anyway, so Esther, because she is imprisoned in the palace and not even aware of what’s happening, although the entire Shushan, I think is the name of the village where they are, it is put in complete turmoil by this edict that all the Jews are going to be killed on a certain day. Mor, um, Hainan also plans to take all of their possessions and give them to the king. That’s how he kind of bribes the king to go along with this plan. And so Mordecai is out in sackcloth and ashes. There is all of this furor going on, but Esther doesn’t even know about it. She has to find out through letters back and forth between her and Mordecai. And so they find out what is happening, and, um, Mordecai writes back to Esther and says, you have to intervene on our behalf. And so that puts In a terrible position, she explains to Mordecai, whosoever, whether man or woman, shall come in unto the king in the inner court who is not called, there is one law of him. There is one law of him to put him to death except such to whom the king shall hold out the golden scepter that he may live. But I have not been called to come in unto the king these 30 days. Again, let’s just point out. This is the new queen, the most beautiful, the winner of all of this, and she already has been discarded, and the king hasn’t summoned her for 30 days, right? She, her little moment in the sun is gone. She has no more access to the king. And so, oh. That’s what let’s draw another comparison of what polygamy does to marriage, right? How it completely demeans it, this

[01:19:01] beautiful institution that God established for the connection of a man and a woman and the betterment of both of them and the raising of children and it instead turns it into this awful, awful thing that is so demeaning to women and so it doesn’t serve men well either, right? And I, I have to make this comparison that Just as Esther couldn’t go talk to her husband. In early Utah, many of the women, I know the wives of Brigham Young at least, and I’m guessing any other others who had many wives, they had to make an appointment to go see their husband. For Esther, this was a matter of life and death, right? She needed to tell her king that her life is at risk, but she’s not able to, and that was the same in these early polygamous situations. We’re not different. This is this story of Esther and what the system she was living in. It is a very similar accurate representation, maybe a bit more extreme, but, but it’s the same, it’s the same situation that existed in early Utah. These women had to make an appointment, hope that they could talk to their husband, not make their situation worse, because they could absolutely be punished, right? And it didn’t matter even if it was a situation, a matter of life and death. Their needs did not matter. Their voices were not heard. Their feedback was not welcome. They were not, anyway, it wasn’t different. This is this is exactly what Jacob warns about, right? When he calls it horeams. He refers to polygamy as hordoms. And I think that we again are so wrong if we read that to in any way be critical of the women, to call the women whores. It’s not that, it’s that the women were treated. As whores in this system, they were given no value, no voice, nothing. They just had to show up, do their duty, and, and then be silent, not, not cause any fuss, not need anything, not want anything, right? It’s what it did to, did to the women. That’s the word. Ezer Cannegdo is what, um, help me really means. It means a perfect match for men, and that is what is supposed to be in marriage. And this completely changes it and demeans it and, and just ruins what marriage is supposed to be. So anyway, so here is Esther, already discarded, already not desired by the king for 30 days, right, not knowing what’s going on, how can she, she only was able to warn the king of the plot against him that Mordecai exposed because the king still was summoning her, right? It was all on his timetable, all according to his desires. The women had no, you know, they, they did not exist other than to serve their husband. Right.

[01:21:40] And so that’s when we come to the high point of this story, when Mordecai responds with words of encouragement, Esther telling him she telling her she has to intervene, or she will be destroyed along with the rest of them, and he says, Who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this. And as Esther’s appeal, she and oh Esther repeals in response, Go gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan and fast ye from me and neither eat nor drink for 3 days, 3 days, nights, night or day, and I also and my maidens will fast likewise and so will I go into the king, which is not according to the law. And if I perish, I perish. This has already been long, so I won’t go into this too much, but there’s so much here. There’s so much that’s beautiful since we’re talking about it. At Easter, it’s hard to not see the comparison of 3 days and nights of fasting and the 3 days and nights in the tomb, right? And then, um, and then the chance to have a resurrection to be granted life and, um, and then her submission in saying if I perish, I perish, that is. That is true beautiful submission to God, saying, I am going to do what I feel God is telling me to do, and whatever happens happens and it’s in God’s hand, and I will just trust that it will be for the best. And that is beautiful. That’s how you become truly fearless and powerful, and that’s what Esther did and where Esther, you know, what she was able to um accomplish within herself. And so, Anyway, then she does, she goes in and oh, and then a few a little bit more. This is um chapter 5 verse 1. Now it came to pass it on the 3rd day that Esther put on her royal apparel. And stood in the inner court of the king’s house, and I think that we tend to under read that and just think that she dressed beautifully, but I think there is so much more there. I can’t help but compare it to her whole story. There is so much that’s profound here in Isaiah 52 or 2 Nephi chapter 8. Awake, awake, put on thy strength, O Zion. Put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city, for henceforth thou shalt no more come in unto thee, the uncircumcised and the. Unclean, shake thyself from the dust. Arise. Sit down, O Jerusalem, loose thyself from the bounds of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion. Isn’t that an amazing scripture? It just came right to mind. It’s like, wow, there is so much there, right? The, the bride representing the Lord’s people, that just, just all of it, and her robes that symbolize the robes of the holy priesthood, right? The power to act on behalf of God. I think that that is But Esther in part is symbolizing here, and I think it’s beautiful. And, um, a, a smaller reading of that, like I said, is just that she put on beautiful clothes. I think there’s much more to it.

[01:24:22] And so then verse 2, when the king saw Esther the queen standing in the court, she obtained favor in his sight, and the king held out to Esther the golden scepter that was in his hands. So Esther drew drew near and touched the top of the scepter. So again, after the three days of Darkness she is granted life and so that’s just the first obstacle past, right? You think, OK, she did it, she made it, but now you have to look at the great lengths Esther has to go to to intervene, to exert the limited power that she has, the games that she has to play, right? And so it’s really interesting to see her work within the system again, men trying to suppress women, but it, you know, the power of womanhood cannot be suppressed. And so what can, what happens here. is reminiscent of another. It reminded me of another famous story of a Persian princess, Sheherazad, and the 10001 Arabian Knights. I was like, whoa, there’s something similar. And so I looked it up and sure enough, many scholars think that both of these stories came from the same original story, right, that they both are kind of retellings of the same ancient story, and I find that to be Intriguing. We know that the the book of Esther was written far after it, it was written. It tells us at the end, and I’ll go into it as a an explanation of the Jewish holiday Purim. Pur Purim, am I saying that right, right? We’ll go into that a little bit. So, so it was written retrospectively to try to explain this holiday that they have, right? So it’s really interesting to see the similarities. So Shaherazad, to go into that really quickly. The king of Persia, his queen betrayed him, and so in anger, he, I think, had her executed and then the plan that his advisors bring to him is to have a new virgin every night and then behead her in the morning so he can never be betrayed again. So you can already see some of the similarities, right? And so, um, after all of the fair daughters of the nobleman have been brought in, um, Shahrazad, who is a brilliant and very studied young girl, she’s read everything and she’s, anyway, she volunteers to save all of the other women. Against her father and mother’s wishes, she volunteers. She goes into the king, and she asks permission to wish her sister to tell her sister good night for the last time. So she goes in and tells her sister a story, and she goes into this beautiful intriguing story and then stops halfway through. And then comes into the king and he asks her to finish the story, and she said, I can’t. There’s not enough time. So he grants her another day to live, and the next night she finishes that first story and starts another one and tells it halfway through, and this continues on for 1,0001 days, for 1000 stories,

[01:27:02] right, until the last day she um tells him she’s told her last story and um. But by this time she has 3 sons with him and he’s fallen in love with her, so he grants her her life. So that’s the story of Shahrazad. You can see a similarity here because Esther doesn’t, she invites the king to a banquet, right? She tells him to come and, and she kind of extends this and this intrigue that goes on. She invites him and Hayman, so it kind of takes the story and puts just this amazingly beautiful satisfying satisfying irony into it that Hayman now thinks he is at the height of his self-importance. He’s invited as the only guest of the king and queen to dine with them repeatedly, right? And she keeps this invitation going for several nights and Um, and in the meantime, you know, it is being revealed what Hayman is doing. There was something I was going to say about that, but anyway, then it, um, finally she reveals to the king what um what Haman was planning, and yeah, in the meantime, these scaffolds are being built for um. Mordecai to hang them on. Now, in reading, apparently they didn’t do hanging in Persia, so some people think that that actually is not accurate, that what it would have been would have been um poles to have them impaled on. That’s how they publicly executed people in Persia. So it’s interesting to think when they talk about how tall it would have been, it actually would have likely been the pole to impale them on that was being constructed in the meantime. That Haman is having built for Mordecai, right? And so, um, that’s when Esther reveals to both Haman and Morde and, and, um, the King Xerxes what Haman is planning. Xerxes in a rage goes out into the garden, strangely leaving Haman alone with Esther and Haman pleading for his life, and again it’s sort of unclear. You can read it either way, either way, whether he is attacking, attacking her or just clumsy, but when the king comes back in. Haman is on top of Esther on her bed, right? And so the king completely that that gives him all he needs. So he has in this just beautiful chiasm, the structure, everything that Haman had planned to do to Mordecai, the king does to Haman and every honor that the king had given. Hayman, he gives to Mordecai, right? And it goes on in this beautiful way that it has even similar language that it includes that all of the people, well, so in the beginning there was an edict passed out everywhere that all of the Jews were to be killed, including all of the women and all of the children, and now it’s reversed, and anyone who had planned to take part in the killing of the Jews, they all Now be killed, including all of the women and all of the children. It says both the little ones and women and to take the spoil of them for a pray. So exactly what was supposed to happen to the Jews instead it’s going to happen to all of the people that were plotting to do that against the Jews.

[01:30:02] So it’s a seriously like it’s seriously retributive, right? There’s a real retribution happening here and um. It’s, it’s satisfying on one level, but to those of us who like have this element of Christian forgiveness or charity, it’s a little bit unsettling, right? That it’s like, oh they were going to do that to you, so you’re gonna do it all to them and you actually do, right? And um it says in verse 16, I think this chapter 8, the Jews had light and gladness and joy and honor and in every province and in every city whithersoever the king’s commandment had his and his decree came. The Jews had joy and gladness and feast and a good day, and many of the people of the land became Jews, for the fear of the Jews fell upon them. And so anyway, they, they did thus the Jews smote this is always chapter 9, verse 5. Thus the Jews smote all their enemies with the stroke of the sword and slaughter and destruction and did what they would unto those that hated them. So. They really carried out this retribution in an interesting way, and Hayman and all of his 10 sons were, well, the, the Bible says hung, but um the history says impaled on the very structures that were created to do that to all of the Jews. And then this is where, this is where a different side of. Comes out for all of us who want to think of her as this young, innocent, gentle, sweet girl, you know, this is where her ferocity comes out, which again gives me the connection for me at least of the goddess symbolic symbolism that she’s Esther, you know, Ishtar, because she’s the symbol of beauty and fertility, but also of war, right? And so Um, it’s, um, verse 12, and the king said unto Esther the queen, the Jews have slain and destroyed 500 men in Shushan, the palace, and the 10 and the 10 sons of Haman. What have they done in the rest of the king’s provinces now? What is thy petition, and it shall be granted thee, or what is thy request further, and it shall be done. And I didn’t mention that like because of the power of Mordecai being the second in command, all of the king’s armies, all of his leaders and his appointees helped the Jews, right? So they were. All enlisted in killing all of the Jews’ enemies. So the, the tables really turned, and they were able to carry out this destruction. And this is the next verse. Then said Esther, if it pleased the king, let it be granted to the Jews, which are in Shushan to do tomorrow also according unto this day’s decree. And let Haman’s 1010 sons be hanged upon the gallows again, that could be impaled upon the, the, um, posts, right? But she calls for a second day of killing. So that’s where that fierce goddess energy is coming out. She’s not just a gentle soft peacemaker. She’s like. What I request is that we have a 2nd day for the Jews to kill all of their enemies. So by Esther’s word, there was a 2nd day of killing, and another 300 men were killed in Shushan,

[01:32:56] goes on to say, but the other Jews that were in the king’s provinces gathered themselves together and stood for their lives and had the rest of their enemies and slew all of their foes, 70 and 5000, but they did not lay hands on their prey, so they killed 75,000 men but didn’t take their possessions. That didn’t take the spoils. So that’s where the story, the story ends other than it goes on to say that this day they, they did that for 2 days and then on the 3rd day they rested and feasted and celebrated and Gave gifts and that that that is the holiday perm and it goes on to say that that every year all of the people must, um, it says in verse 22 that they should make the days of feasting and joy and of sending portions one to another and gifts to the poor. And, um, verse 332 and the decree of Esther confirmed these matters of Purim, and it was written in this book. And so, and it’s called Purim. It’s the plural of lots. Purr means lot like dice, you know, like casting lots. And so it, I, I interpret that to mean like the changing of fortunes that, um, you know, that what, what the, the lot that, um, Hayman had cast against the Jews returned on him. But anyway, that’s what Purim means. And so this book was written to be an explanation for the celebration of Purim, and it’s easy to see why this would be such a joyful holiday. I can I, I know, and they read it every year and they have, they boo and hiss and shake things at Hayman and they cheer, Mordecai, you know, it’s really a fun, it’s, it’s supposed to be the funnest holiday in the Jewish year in all of their festivals. And um, I can see for a people who had been so spent so much time in bondage and captivity and persecution. That it would probably be really fun for them to have this at least imaginative reversal of fortunes that whoever they were was was being cruel to them, they could be cruel back to them, you know, I maybe that was even important um psychologically and emotionally for their mental health, but um you can see why that would be so loved for this people throughout time. And so, um, but I think, I think it’s important for us to read it with the eyes of this in comparison to section 132, right? To recognize, are we OK with this? Is this OK? I don’t wanna, you know, nothing against the Jews, you know, I, I think that we would also bring to it a bit, uh, level of forgiveness and charity and, you know, I’m more Christian. Version it does make us somewhat uncomfortable to think about, oh, I get to imagine doing all the mean things to them that they want to do to me, you know. But the more important thing I want to bring to it is our awareness of the humanity of women and the worth of women and that women’s experiences matter. There is a real similarity between the Book of Esther and Section 132 in claiming. You, you know, it’s and it’s treating women as position possessions, and I think that we continue

[01:35:55] to do this while we are so there’s so much celebration at the Jews being redeemed, there is no such redemption for the women. They they continue to be invisible. They continue to be captive in the king’s harem in his concubine in his concubinage, right? The books ends with the glorify the glory that is given to Mordecai and as second in command to A Hairus, but the king is never condemned. He’s never blamed for how he treats the women, you know, like that all just seems to be invisible and fine, and it’s just part of it. These women are left even after the redemption and the celebration at the end of the story. All of these young girls are left to live out their lives imprisoned and lonely and unfulfilled in the harem of the king, captive in the harem and the king. So even in this book that is named for a woman, the plight of women goes, you know, is left invisible. And I think that that is something that we need to recognize. It starts out with a demonstration of the Of the strength and power of Vashti and then continues on with the strength and power and the chosenness of Esther, right, the impact that she has, and, and yet we leave all of the rest of this unseen. So I want to bring the rest of it to it and, and, and make us start to see, start to see what is not acceptable and what is not OK, and what God is trying to awaken us to. The scales of darkness need to continue to fall off of our eyes, so we can see how profound Jacob. Of his sermon is and what God is teaching, right? That this was not OK. The Jews were in a culture where this was seen as OK. So God said, No, I’m taking you out of here so I can raise up a people and to me, who will honor women, who will see women, who will value women the way that I do, that they won’t be captive in this culture. I want a new culture and look what we did to it. We need to keep, keep redeeming this right on this Easter. I guess I can’t help but hear. The best loved and best known, most beautiful words of Esther. Perhaps God hath placed you there for such a time as this, right? Maybe that’s true for each of us, with each of our unique experiences and insights and opportunities and things that we can bring that maybe we are here for such a time as this, to try to bring this new redemption forth, to say, we need to Redeem women from the darkness and the bondage that she has been under forever, right? We need to start seeing it. Start rejecting it and objecting to it, and start saying that women, not just men, not just kings, not just, right? Not just polygamist leaders are of infinite worth, that, that what God did was All of us equally and to ever see another human being as a means to your ends goes exactly against everything that Jesus demonstrated, everything that Jesus taught, everything that Jesus stood for. We cannot allow ourselves to see women as the invisible means to the ends of powerful men any longer. And so I’m gonna leave it there. Thank you for sticking with me on this long episode again. Happy Easter, and I hope that all of us have a little bit

[01:39:17] more place in our heart for the Book of Esther, both the good and the bad, and that’s what I am hoping we can continue to go on and do. So I will see you next time.