NOTE: @ 11:07 I accidentally said that I don’t believe Joseph was a prophet. I MEANT to say POLYGMIST! Sigh — speaking of my words getting mixed up. Ugh.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] OK, and here we are to part three. I was just saying it’s vulnerable for me to admit so, um, genuinely without being at all careful. Like I said, I’m transparent to a fault, but, um, you know, to talk about the struggles that I’ve had with our current leaders, I don’t want to alienate any listeners or, uh, you know, I’m just sharing. But um, anyway, the, the, the last quote I have from that is, please believe me when I say that when your spiritual foundation is built solidly upon Jesus Christ, you have no need to fear, and that has so many levels of resonance for me. I one thing I have come through the last couple of years with is an awareness that there’s nothing to fear. Like I have experienced God healing me through the unthinkable. With the experiences I had, and I am obviously now experiencing more healing, the ongoing healing of the Lord, and there’s nothing to fear. The Lord, the Lord is bigger than anything that can happen to us and always has the power to heal us, even if we have to walk through that for a little bit, for a for a little while. But I also, like as I’m reading it now in the context of recording, I’m thinking, oh my goodness, if our Foundation is built solidly upon the Jesus upon Jesus Christ. You have nothing to fear about what someone might say or what you might learn or what do you know they have nothing to fear from me either. Anyone whose foundation is built solidly on the gospel of Jesus Christ. So I’m hoping that that is somewhat useful to you. I think it’s really, I, I had a conversation with my sister a while ago kind of asking her about some different. Experiences she had in some different books that she was reading, she’s a very faithful member of the church and um I’m, I’m, you know, I, I’m more out there than she is but, but she, but she has been very supportive and actually really, you know, anyway, she’s a wonderful sister and she but she talked to me about how this book that she read made her to start kind of being, being more critical. She started listening to the leaders, um, to general conference more critically. And not not as in critical thinking, but with more of a critical eye, more to find fault, and she was kind of looking around the world a little more to find fault, and she recognized that and that was a big red flag to her and I have recognized that same thing in myself. That’s part of why I have wanted to step away from conference because I didn’t want to go to it with, with a critical eye, like expecting to find things that, you know, or. And, and I tried really hard to only listen when I wasn’t in that that frame. And, and,

[00:02:36] but then it would be hard if I was listening and something would hit me because I don’t, you know, that’s not the experience I wanted to have. So anyway, that’s, um, it’s been really good for me to be able to think maybe the Lord is healing me and maybe there’s healing available for all of us where we can. Um, for people who are, who really, well, for anyone who’s in this journey, if you’re listening to this podcast, probably you have some complicated relationship, right? But for the people who are really faithful, I, we can share when I say faithful, you know what I mean, who aren’t open to alternative ideas or who are nervous about things that we say or. That we are finding we can share that quote with them to say look when we’re founded on Jesus Christ, it’s OK. God Jesus Christ is big enough to take care of anything anyone will mess up, right? And for all of us, I think it is a good invitation I. You know, I don’t know that I could have heard this um a year ago or anything, but, but to, I’m thankful that I have had this opportunity to be healed a little bit more and to be able to look for the good because I’m not feeling so hurt or I’m not feeling so critical, right? And so, um, I’m really thankful for the time. That my state president took to talk to me. He didn’t tell me what I needed to do. He didn’t tell me that, but a lot of But that was the effect I had in my life, right? And so I think that it’s um it’s just a good example. And so there were a couple of other things I didn’t go into the letter yet. I guess I Will tell you some of the things the letter said that’s what I was going to start with because I wanted to clarify some things so I’ve clarified my perspective on profits. It’s never been my intention to say don’t listen to profits at all. It’s been my intention to say, hey, if things that you find that were said or done by prophets are upsetting to you. It’s OK because this is maybe a better perspective to have. That’s, you know, anyway, I hope you can understand what I’m saying. I’ve been trying to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. That’s how I, that’s my intention and my desire, you know, so I guess it hits different people in different ways, but I do, I guess, wanna talk about this email a little just to. Let people know what I’m dealing with, what people are doing, and also just ask us to all be better because you know I’ve had to record this a couple of times because it cut off anyway, so I don’t know what I’ve already said, but we are told not to bear false witness. Why is that OK to do? This is just so filled with lies. So she, she gets the whole idea of my podcast wrong and says that it’s all about my belief that Joseph Smith wasn’t a polygamist. I’ve gone there now and we’re addressing that more now,

[00:05:22] but the whole first year, that’s not what it was. But anyway, She, she says so many things. She says that, um, I’m always promoting myself. What does she say? That I say often that I’m an active faithful member of the church, and I say that often to lure people with weak foundations. I’ll have to find it. Um, oh, the other day I was reading a thread that Michelle was part of, and her go to phrase was, I am a faithful and active member of the LDS Church. She uses this to lure other current members in, and she uses it often. And she uses sweet words and knows how to manipulate the conversation to make her sound innocent. I again just if that’s what people see, choose to see when they look at me, there’s nothing I can say. I, I can just tell you that’s the opposite of true. I am not scheming or manipulative or sneaky or like I’m just me. I just shared all of this with you. I am. If anything, I overshare. I am not good at strategy. So that, those were some of the claims. um, I’ve only ever said I’m a member of the church. What I’m saying, I’m a member of the church, as in, I believe. The in the church, I, I, I, I, I’m glad and thankful to be a member of the church. I have never said it in any way to say, Hey, I’m safe, because I, cause I don’t like that approach at all. I think that truth stands on its own, not based on who said it, right? Anyway, that really bothered me. The thing that was the hardest for me to read. Oh, and I hope I haven’t, if this is a repetition, I apologize cause like I said, I’ve had to do this twice, but she says that. I’ve mentioned several times that I’ve been called in to talk to the bishop or state president about my beliefs, and then I basically brag about the fact that they are supportive of my endeavors and see no problem with what I am doing. That is so wrong, so bad, so offensive, so untrue, and just designed to create bad feelings. If I already said that, I apologize. I’ll go on to a couple of other things. Um, I would have more to say about that if I wasn’t worried I’d already said it. Um, she, she says that, um. The the lies that I tell, she says that I twist everything out of context. I twist all scriptures and history and quotes. I take them and I twist them out of context to to create this false, and I just, can we,

[00:07:46] I. I want to express if anyone ever sees me taking something out of context, please call me on it because what I feel, I go out of my way to read the entire talk, to read the entire book, to read, you know, look at the entire thing so that I know I have it exactly in context. I read every, like I never just even take what a book says. I look up the source and I go and I read that. I do a lot. I’ve go to great lengths to make sure that I’m doing the exact opposite of that. I feel like unfortunately that’s sometimes what we are given is things that are taken out of context. So I wanted to express that no, it’s not me that’s doing that. She follows that by saying that um Michelle is leading the army of Satan’s minions to lead those with weak foundations away. That was pretty representative of the, the lies that are being told the anger that’s, you know, like I just was sent some screenshots. I’ve kind of taken myself out of I’m not on social media very much because I’m busy with all of this and you know I haven’t found it to be worthwhile to engage with these things that they’re saying, but they started to say that I massively advocate for same-sex marriage, and that’s the reason I’m doing this is because I claim that I can prove that. Um, same-sex marriage is just as valid and eternally as traditional marriage, and it should be in the temples and, and I, um, you know, and it just creates this divisive space to be in where first of all, I have never believed or advocated for anything other than. Marriage as God ordained it and established it um between one man and one woman. I know that causes complications for people who don’t fit easily into that, and I mourn and I advocate for being loving and kind and inclusive and compassionate and empathetic and charitable. I, I’d absolutely say, can we please do that? But I believe to my core in marriage as God established it, and I think anything that is contrary to that is, you know, is, is what the scriptures teach us that it is. So I, and I think that that includes. Any, any kind of, any kind of change to marriage as God established it, whether it’s polygamy or same-sex marriage, I believe very much in the sanctity of marriage. That’s hard to say because that’s divisive on every side, but that’s what I believe anyway, so they’ve people have started to claim that that’s why I’m doing that is to try to break down. It just, it just is illogical and ludicrous. There are a lot of lies going around, and I guess I want to invite anyone if you hear things about me that massively concern you. Go ahead and ask me. I might not have time to respond to everybody, but um, I will do my best to, you know, to at least direct you to something. But so anyway, she goes on, she makes the claim that many, um, she has even garnered the attention of several well-known church historians that have made rebuttal videos to her podcast showing how absolutely wrong she is and how she ignores 99% of the actual history in order to make the claims that she does, like all of this, it goes. Oh, it goes on and on that that is just for, well, I guess if I have to say that is utterly and

[00:10:58] completely false and you know, I would, well, I’ve, I’ve had, I’ve done my best to have as many historians on as will come on. I think fewer will come on now that I have said I don’t believe Joseph was a prophet, but I think it’s useful to engage with the other side. I think it’s far better to do that than to just lie about the other side, right? I work really hard to not do that. She says that there were a couple other things that I was going, that I was going to read, but anyway, I think you get the main point. I’m feeling bad that I can’t remember. The other part because it was applicable to something else I wanted to talk about, but she basically is begging, 00, that’s what it is, is I am single-handedly responsible for basically everyone that has left the church like this woman, she says she’s she’s keeping a list of everyone she knows and it’s, it’s obviously everyone she knows that’s leading the church, the church, and a lot of people have been leaving the church for many years, right? I’m actually like to claim that that’s me. Like, like I, you know, that’s what I said. If I had any influence in people’s lives in regard to their decision, they would stay because that’s what I’m always advocating for. I’m always advocating that we look for the good. There’s so much good and That we stay in the church. God is still in this church. God is absolutely working in and through this church. If people feel led in different directions, I’m not going to minimize that or judge that, you know, I, I like, I think that we should, but, but if I have any influence, I would say stay, stay in the church. In fact, John Hayzek after I finished my interview with him. Um, he, he said, don’t you dare leave the, leave that church you’re in. And I, I loved that he said that. I was like, I know, I love my church. And it’s so good and it’s, God is doing so much in the church right now and I, I just feel so thankful to be a member of this church, and I guess I just feel this new level of peace and joy still uncertain, still with some trepidation, but about being able to step again into my love of profits and church leaders, I’m, I’m opening myself up to that. I feel scared, but I feel healing and so. So anyway, I guess I’m responding because from my talk with the state president, he really did help me see that I have been um in a place where I have not felt trust or love for our leaders and that that has come across even though I haven’t, I’ve tried, I guess I’m so transparent that what my feelings are come across even if I am trying not to say anything negative or critical, you know. And so, um, so I guess this is my public broken heart and a transparent and well, and I’m more just joyful going,

[00:13:51] the Lord has shown me this and has helped me to start to heal. And maybe I can go forward doing it a little bit better, doing it a little bit better, not making people so uncomfortable. Maybe, maybe not. I don’t know. We’ll see, we’ll see where it goes. But that, um, that’s what I’m hoping. I did want to end with one thing. Um, I asked my, um, so, so after, when I was pregnant with my 13th and um the world was shut down and I had I don’t know how much I’ve gone into. I won’t go into a ton. It was a dark, dark, dark time that I’m sure at some point I’ll talk about if I have, and I don’t think I have, um, but that’s when, you know, I could not see a reason or a way to stay in the church, even though I’ve been healed many years before and told to stay in the church and told how to stay and why to stay and I’ve been so thankful. It got to that point again and um really it was. A very good friend, my state president and um. Our family ministers who just rip their love and goodness and. Service and giving um. Healed me in ways that I can’t explain and helped me stay in the church and um. I’m so profoundly thankful for all of them and um and I feel so much love and I feel like, you know, I’m thankful that my state president is invested in. Understanding what I’m doing, watching, I mean, he’s so busy and he’s still he’s watched at least a dozen episodes and you know he’s up on it, I guess, saying again you don’t need to send letters to my state president. He’s been alerted. He knows he’s aware, you know, and I’m not saying, and he’s I have his support, so yeah, you know, I, I don’t wanna. Do any, like, I would like to take the focus off of my leaders. It’s just people so determined to control other people and control the narrative that they would rather kick someone out of the church than minister with them, right? And I have experienced the exact opposite from My state president and my um my ministry brother and sister, she was, they moved into the ward during or right before the shutdown. I didn’t know them well, and, um, she was assigned as my visiting teacher when, well, my ministering sister and um and then they were the war missionaries and so I think that. You know, we’re Working with us, but you would never know because they were so loving, you know, but, and they have just become close, close friends and so I reached out to them as well because they have so much wisdom and goodness. And so I just wanted to read one text. I hope that they won’t mind, but um.

[00:16:34] After talking to this after dealing with all of this, I just asked the question because they’ve also watched, he has watched several of my podcasts and knows what I’m doing and he gave me counsel, you know, he’s the one that said that I just get talking so fast that I. Anyway, he’ll say it again in here, but, um, I did, I just asked, like I showed him the letter, I showed them the letter and my responses and, you know, kept them updated. And so I asked, can I ask you, do you think, um, I should be in the church? Like, I guess I kind of meant it was a hard question to ask, right? But like, do you think that what I’m doing means I shouldn’t be in the church? Like, have I? You know, stepped out of bounds so much that, and, and so I just want to read his response so that people who either feel like I am leading people out of the church, which I’ve done, I’m doing everything I can to say that is not true. I am trying to lead people to truth, lead people to the scriptures to Jesus Christ, to the truth that God has established and ordained and taught, and, and, and I’m trying to say. That in order to do that, you don’t have to leave the church. I know that creates some complications, and I know that’s tricky, but I, uh, my friend pointed out to me that Terry Gibbons said he knows several people who left the church because of the gospel topics essays, right? Like, like it’s not people. I, I hope we can get over the perspective of we need to keep everything quiet. It’s too late for that, right? It’s not people talking about the issues that lead people out of the church. It’s the issues that lead people out of the church, and my hope is that That people can understand truth and that does truth about marriage that does create some complications with our past leaders with, you know, and that we can navigate that and stay with God and hopefully with the church. That’s why if I had my druthers, anyone that asks me, I would say stay in the church, stay in the church. We need the church and the church needs us. That’s what I believe. So to my core, that’s what I’ve been told again and again and again, so. So I hope that answers if anyone is expressing that I’m leaving, leading people out of the church, I guess you have to send them all three of these videos. Maybe I’ll have my son when he gets back in town. Take care of them and put it into just one release so we can simplify things, but this was, this was the text from my friend, he said. I’m glad you got to talk with the state president. I agree the the letters will probably keep coming due to the nature of the controversy of polygamy, and this is in a conversation because I told them I don’t think the letters will stop even if I change now. I think they’re just going to keep coming, you know. And he says, on the one hand,

[00:19:15] and this is in response to my question, Should I be a member of the church? On the one hand, a member will be, the letters will keep coming due to the nature of the controversy of polygamy. On the one hand, a member will be excommunicated if they practice it, but on the other hand, it still has an honored and protected place at the table. More and more, I just, I, I’m reading this because I just thought it was so wise and summed up so much, so well, and I was so touched by it. More and more members are now seeing it as a corrupt practice not ordained of God. In your podcast, to illuminate the damage the practice has inflicted, the fear it engenders in the living who want no part of it, inflicting fear, harming marriages, causing confusion in family relationships, interfering with it interferes with complete giving of self in marriage, leading many to lose faith in the church and God, and reinforce the concept that women are still objects. So he’s talking about all of the problems of polygamy that. I’m pointing out, he says there are these are all worthy topics to explore and openly discuss. There are those um those who are want to hold on to the hope of eternal polygamy or resent any attempt to make institutional reform will be very upset. However, many will support change and want the facts to come forth, so he’s just looking at the situation. Yes, this is the situation. There will be those who are upset because they either are committed to polygamy or opposed to institutional change, but There will be many that will appreciate it. I think he’s exactly right. Having said all of that, he names his wife and I would be heartbroken if you lost your membership. From what I have seen in your videos, I witness, I witness a sincere daughter of God attempting to shed light on spiritual and doctrinal truths pertaining to God’s law of eternal marriage between one man and one woman. I do very strongly believe that you should be a member of this church that you love. He goes on to say, in my view, sometimes your style of presentation can appear divisive. At times your passion can seem to override your he says your reason, but he clarified that he meant like my being careful or being precise, right? Um, like, like I said, I gave some examples, um, these are things that however, these are things that should not affect your membership in my estimation. I do invite you to be mindful of these things. However, it can only strengthen your position and keep more channels of communication open than he closes with love, and um, I just wanted to express that because these, these are the people who know me, right? These are the people who, and, and I so appreciate their advice. They’re right on. I haven’t been careful enough and my state president is right on that I haven’t been. I haven’t been in the place that maybe a member of the church should be in regard to our current leaders. And I’ve, I guess how I’ve tried to think of that is I can navigate and create this space because I feel called to stay in the church, and this is my church, and I don’t have to leave it just because I don’t like some things that are happening, you know? And so I’m, I’m still trying to figure this out,

[00:22:32] but I am so thankful to these good people. Working with me, striving with me, and helping me to find how I can do this better. I’m so thankful for all of you that listen that are open to truth, that are seeking. I hope if you see lies told about me, you can help me clarify. Maybe not. Maybe it doesn’t matter, but um, anyway, I hope that this message was worthwhile. We’ll get back to, I like I said, I hope that I’ll release the next one soon. I don’t know when this is going to cut off, so I’m going to go ahead and close and say sorry for the messy. Message this week, um, I appreciate you so much, thank you for sticking with me and I will see you soon.