51: Building Faith, Peace & Partnership w/ Dr Julie Hanks | 132 Problems: Revisiting Mormon Polygamy

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So thrilled to have the opportunity to talk to Dr. Julie Hanks. I hope all will benefit from her wisdom, insight, expertise, faith and compassion. I know I did.
For further engagement or connection with Dr. Hanks:
https://centerforpartnership.org/news-events/partnershipfamiliesjuliehanks/
http://www.partnershipfamilies.com/
https://pubs.lib.umn.edu/index.php/ijps/article/view/100
https://www.drjuliehanks.com/
https://wasatchfamilytherapy.com/

Transcript

[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon Polygamy, where we explore the scriptural and theological case for plural marriage. For any new listeners here today, thank you so much for joining us, and I always recommend listening to these episodes in order starting at the beginning. Go ahead and listen to this one first, but then if um you want to understand the foundation we’ve laid in the things that we’re. Teaching. Please start back at the beginning because we really do lay it out step by step in important ways. Um, I am so excited to bring this episode to you today. I got the chance to sit down and talk to the fabulous Julie Hanks, which has really just been a thrill for me. That’s one of my favorite things about doing this podcast is the Phenomenal people I get to talk to. It’s really, really been a fun part of this. So I hope that you enjoy this discussion as much as I did. I think that she has so much wisdom and insight to bring to us. It really was a treat to get to talk to her. So welcome to this episode as we take a deep dive into the murky waters of Mormon polygamy. Welcome everybody to 132 Problems. I am so excited today because I am here with Julie Hanks, who has very kindly and generously agreed to come and talk to us, which I think is wonderful. So first of all, a huge thank you to Julie. And then as a quick, a quick introduction, sure, I assume that most of you know who Julie is, but she has been a therapist in Utah for 3 decades, I believe, correct me if I get anything wrong. She is, she Owns and runs Wasatch Family Therapy. She’s written two books, The Burnout Cure and the Assertiveness Guide for Women, which sound like books all of us desperately need. She is a social media icon with over 104,000 followers on Instagram, which is amazing. She is a sought after speaker and relationship expert and coach. She is a singer songwriter who has produced multiple albums, and she has a Active member of the LDS Church, and I believe she can correct me, I believe she has been the wife of a bishop and has raised 4 children. So I think she has all the bona fides. She, from both her professional life and her own experience, I believe, understands the LDS Church in all of its complexity and the LDS experience in all of its complexity from the inside out. So she is, Julie is just a fearless and powerless voice for helping. Helping people own, discover, and live their best lives. And I believe that she, with her perspective and insight, wisdom, experience, training, um, and also her compassion and clarity and willingness to speak her mind. I think she’s just an invaluable part of our LDS community. So, thank you.

[03:01] Julie Hanks: Wow. Quite an introduction. Well, good. Well, good.

[03:06] Michelle: Welcome. Um, The, the biggest, the biggest, um, compliment is that my daughter-in-law was super excited. She was like, You’re interviewing Julie Haig. So I think it actually elevated me and her eyes because she’s a follower. I really appreciates the things you share. So thank you. So thank you so much for coming and talking to me. I’m a pleasure. Thrilled to get your insight into so many things. So I, I, as I told you over email, I have so many things I would love to talk about. So we’ll just see what we get to, and, um, hopefully we can have some follow-up at some point if we need to. Right. First of all, I, I was struck. I, I think we were kind of thrown together in an odd way, because we had some people with connections kind of come after us at the same time in a strange way. So, but looking, uh, looking into your life a little bit more, we have some similarities that we Really surprised me. So you have, is it 9 siblings? Are there 9 or 10 kids in your family?

[04:03] Julie Hanks: There are 9. I was, yeah, I have 8 siblings, so there were 9 kids. OK.

[04:07] Michelle: And where are you?

[04:08] Julie Hanks: I’m the 2nd oldest. OK,

[04:12] Michelle: so I’m the youngest of 9. And your father is Lexia Azevedo, who was a composer and a music producer. And I don’t know if you know, my mom’s Janine Brady, who was an LDS composer, so we both. My, my mom was always told she needed to either go to New York or LA to have a career. So she somehow managed to raise 9 kids and have a career in Utah, which is in 1970s, 1980s Utah, which is pretty amazing. So I was like, OK, I, I’m feeling some vibes here, you know, and I think that’s really fun. I wanted to ask just Kind of, I, I know that we also had uh some different experiences growing up in the church, and we’ve had different life experiences. So I think it’s really gonna be interesting to discuss kind of our differences, but I did want to ask, from your experience growing up, LDS, what benefits or challenges did you, did you experience? I guess I’m, I find so much value in raising my children in the church, and also some challenges. So I wondered if you could kind of speak to that, to kind of help parents know how to best utilize the wonderful things the church gives us in raising our children, and what things to kind of Be careful of or shore up for our kids. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah.

[05:29] Julie Hanks: Do you want me to share my personal experience growing up or raising my kids or both? Well,

[05:34] Michelle: I just both kind of talked to that. Yeah. So,

[05:38] Julie Hanks: so I grew up in LA and, um, graduated from high school there before I moved to Utah. So I’m a transplant to Utah. Uh, so my experience in California in the church was generally amazing. Uh, it was great to have a, a community of people who I felt nurtured by and who taught me and loved me. Uh, my dad was the bishop for many years when I was growing up. So we were just really integrated into this. Community. And in the area we lived, there were a lot of people in the entertainment industry, so they, they tended to be very colorful, probably more than your average ward. Uh, so it was, you know, our, our sacrament meetings on Christmas were like Just amazing. Our roadshows were incredible. So, lots of fun memories. Uh, what I do remember, cause I grew, I grew up in the 70s and 80s, I remember being aware of the differences between men and women, and that women’s voices weren’t as valued, and that women were taught different things than men were taught. And so that was on my radar, pretty young. Uh, the activities that the young men did were different than what the young women did. Um, so can I

[06:59] Michelle: ask, yeah. Did you have brothers kind of close by you? Was that part of why that was more brought to your attention?

[07:06] Julie Hanks: Um, my, my closest brother is 4 years younger, so it wasn’t really, like, he grew up more in, uh, the teenage years in Utah. So there wasn’t really a comparison, just friends and awareness. Um, and I think that I saw that in the marriages of people around me in my own family, and, and it’s like I just, the women didn’t seem to have as much of a voice or as much power in the relationships. Uh, so I just, I noticed that. And then as I got older, um, like I, I’m a very expressive, creative, uh, person, and I had big Dreams And as I got in my teenage years, I realized the messages that the prophets and apostles were giving about my potential were very narrow. I knew I wanted a family, and I knew I wanted to be married, and I wanted to be a performing songwriter, and I wanted to go to college, and I wasn’t quite sure what I was going to study, but I leaned toward the social sciences and And so there kind of became this um Internal conflict for me, because I’m being told by my church leaders who I’m supposed to follow and obey, and yet I really felt like inside of me, God was had planted in these desires and kind of these missions that I had that were outside of and so that kind of created a dilemma for me, um, in my teenage years. So. Yeah.

[08:54] Michelle: And the struggle of, am I wrong? or are they wrong, which is an impossible thing to consider because they can’t. So does that mean I’m wrong? That’s a really hard thing to navigate, especially if it was.

[09:10] Julie Hanks: Yeah, it, it really was, and I remember. Uh, so this is part of what sent me on the journey of like really claiming my own agency. I, I, I believe it was my senior year and then freshman year of college was when President Benson gave to the mothers in Zion talk about mothers come home from the workplace, wrap your motherly cloak about you, the seeds of divorce are sown the moment the woman leaves the home for the workplace. I mean, it was really an intense talk. And so I’m this bright-eyed, you know, gonna start college at BYU and and I had to really wrestle with that what you were talking about, like, who’s wrong? like and and I What my answer was to prayer was, you are responsible for you are the steward of your life, the prophet, the bishop, your future husband, no one is going to have to answer for your life except for you. And so I really had to take ownership and decide for myself what I was, what path I was going to take, and that’s where I kind of started that wrestle with like general and authority, personal authority, right? And I took from I took from President Benson’s talk, Parents are important to children, and that’s what I choose to take from chose to take from that talk, and I chose to take, I am the steward of my life. And so I was able to move forward in a way that felt OK, but there was still a part of me that for a long time thought it am I just not righteous enough? Am I, is it wrong for me to want these things? And then I kind of would go back, I, you know, I feel like, I feel like these are inspired divine parts of me, and so that was a wrestle for quite a while.

[11:26] Michelle: Oh, I, I, I imagine it would be, I have to say how much I love the answer you received, especially at such a young age, because that’s profound. That’s one thing I’ve really, I have really tried to instill in my children, is this is your life. You’re the one that gets to, you’re the one that has to live it. So nobody can tell you what to do. Like, right, right. Stay as close to God as you can. Stay as close to me as you can because I’ll always love you and go have your adventure. I love and I love that it also. I love your answer was better than the problem, because the problem is who’s wrong. Right? But this is where there’s right. This is where there’s truth in all of this. And someone doesn’t have to be wrong. I love, because it seems like God answers that way so often that there’s more truth to help you put all of this into place, although the struggle continues.

[12:22] Julie Hanks: Yeah. Yeah. So that’s and you can see that in my work in the books that I’ve written and what I post is and and what I’ve seen in my therapy practice is women in the church feeling like they don’t have a voice or their voice doesn’t matter. And so that, like, and, and really claiming like that you are the main character in your life. Your husband isn’t, your kids aren’t. Like you have to, you don’t have to, but, um, from, from a mental, you get to, like, that’s why we’re here. And from a mental health perspective, that’s so. To feel like you have a say, you have a choice, you have a voice in your life path. And so my own experience is part of why I’m so passionate about that. And then there were themes that I saw in my therapy practice over the decades that I was like, oh my gosh, this isn’t just me. This is like Virtually every LDS women that I see has these has similar dilemmas. So, uh, OK, I’m getting off track because you wanted to know about raising kids, right? So let me talk, let me talk about my kids. I’ll talk about my kids. The advantages of raising my children in the church were the sense of community. Uh, a connection to God. And Jesus and uh heavenly Mother. So the church is really good at raising compassionate men, giving them opportunities, and letting them know that they’re valuable. The church, as it currently is, is less. Uh, structured to do the same for women, for young women, and, and raising, I have two boys, I mean, I have 2 boys and 2 girls, boy girl, boy girl, and so they were raised. Kind of, you know, going through young women’s together, young men’s together. And it’s just really clear that the, the boys get more of the message that you matter to the community than the girls, because we give them responsibilities to serve the community that are more explicit. And it doesn’t mean that women, young women can’t serve the community, and it doesn’t mean the church isn’t beneficial, but my experience raising boys and girls is that it’s more set up structurally to support. Uh, the boys.

[14:59] Michelle: OK, that’s really interesting. I,

[15:02] Julie Hanks: I,

[15:03] Michelle: oh,

[15:03] Julie Hanks: go

[15:03] Michelle: ahead.

[15:03] Julie Hanks: Go ahead. No, go ahead.

[15:05] Michelle: I didn’t notice that. Like, like, like I was, I, um, I have noticed that I had a more comfortable time in a lot of ways, being raised in the church. I was the same as you, just like spunky and spitfire and smart and ambitious and, you know, but I didn’t notice as much the, the difference. And then even raising my kids, you know, cause I go boy, boy, girl, girl. And Where, where my girls struggle, they’re both LGBT, um, one daughter is gay and one daughter is gay and trans. And, well, we’re figuring that out. That’s a hard one for our family to navigate right now. But, um, so, so they really are coming to grips with some of the ways that they felt really hurt. Also, they were both just shy and, you know, so it can also depend on the personality of, of the child. And then I a whole slew of other kids that we’re raising now. And it really is interesting to, like, one of the things that I’d really wanted to focus on is like, you need to know what’s true. You need to have your own source to find truth, rather than, you can’t believe what you’re you know, often the messages they would come home with wouldn’t be things that I would agree with. And, but I also don’t want to be their authority. I want them to. Know how to find truth. And in some ways, the church really helps us do that. It really talks about feeling the spirited, you know, and in other ways, it’s kind of a challenge because they kind of put the cart before the horse sometimes and say, you need to believe the following things rather than just sharing. This is why I believe these things. And what do you believe? And let’s discuss.

[16:34] Julie Hanks: Yes, exactly. And that’s how I’ve tried to be with my, with my kids. It’s like, what What works, you know, what, what feels true to you. Like, you, you have to learn how to trust yourself and your the spirit or your soul, whatever you wanna call it. So I have one child who’s not in the church, uh, and then I have one child who’s currently serving a mission, and You know, so we’re kind of, yeah, yeah, and so. I had with my uh daughter who who has left the church, I had to respect her agency that this doesn’t feel true to her and that she gets to decide that. I don’t get to decide that for her. So there have been a lot of benefits, um, lot of hurtful things like bishop’s interviews, uh, have been not always great for my kids, um, some, some wounds about that and some things that aren’t OK with me. Um, it was funny, I have a 16 year old still at home and a few years ago, She was going into young women’s and I said, I’m, I’m gonna sit in on all the interviews from now on. This is just not OK with me. And then my husband was called as bishop. I was like, well, I guess we have a parent in all the interviews now, so

[17:55] Michelle: that’s great. Oh, that’s a great story. I love it. So your husband has to be the one on the other side of it doing the interviews. That’s just a really good perspective to see it from both sides. I like that. Yeah. That you’ve had that experience. So, OK, that’s really helpful. I guess I was just talking to one of my, um, I, I have twins, twin daughters that are, and, um, I was just talking to one of them. And it’s hard because there are so many benefits being in the church, that community, and, you know, and, and so we were kind of discussing how to replace some of those things in her life now, you know, and. And I guess I just find myself, and, and I know that the LGBT issue is hard, and I don’t have the answers for that, you know. But in general, I want, I just want people to feel able to stay as much as possible. That’s kind of where my heart is because I feel like If I love that you were able to navigate those challenges without going to the I have to stay or I have to go, and I have to be in 100% or out 100%. I, I don’t wanna make it sound like we’re not 100% in, but I have to be in, I have to fit this bold. I really like being able to say, there are lots of Ways to be in the church. And, and you are welcome to stay if that will serve you. If the benefits outweigh the struggles. And I want to answer for as many people as possible. Yeah, that’s kind of.

[19:16] Julie Hanks: Yeah, and that’s 99% of the feedback that I get is Thank you for validating my thoughts and feelings, because I didn’t know it was OK to have these thoughts and feelings, and thank you for helping me find a path to stay. That like, uh, it’s not all or nothing. And, and I know for some people it is, and there, there are developmental stages in faith. And according to Fowler’s stages of faith, organized religion seeks to create and maintain stage 3 faith. All organized religions, because that creates a group of people that are conforming and can move the organization forward. What it’s really hard when you get beyond The state, the, you know, to the next phase stage where it’s not as supported by the organization. And so I think that’s part of what we’re talking about is, is recognizing, oh, The, the authority is, is here, not out here in, in human beings. It’s, it’s here. You know.

[20:23] Michelle: Absolutely. And I’ve actually come to see that as one of the necessary benefits of institutionalized religion, because I think it’s hard to make that transition from stage 3 to stage 4 if we don’t go through that. That experience. And I think that’s what they’re calling us to. So in a way, I see that as kind of baked into the cake of this mortal experience of what God gives us the opportunity. So I don’t see it as saying, like, I don’t know how to establish a relation, a religion that doesn’t have that stage 3, in some way. And so it’s kind of part of the mortal experience. And I think an important part that It invites us to further growth, which I value. Yeah. It’s, it’s, it could be challenging and uncomfortable, but it’s so important. If, if this life is about helping us to become more like God, that’s absolutely an essential part of it.

[21:16] Julie Hanks: Yeah, yeah. And I, I really honor people who are in different stages and who have different viewpoints. I know people have really, uh, a few people who are very loud have come after me. And I kind of feel like My message isn’t for you then like that’s great, but it’s obviously for someone because people are are listening or following or, you know, finding value in it and it’s like Your message is for other, another group of people, right? Like I speak primarily to women because that’s my experience and that’s who I see is is. I’m acutely aware of the suffering of LDS women who are part of the church or who were raised in the church. And so that’s who I speak to, and I’m fine if other people have different opinions or are speaking to different groups in different faith stages.

[22:11] Michelle: Absolute. OK, I love that. I love your compassionate view cause that is something I’ve had to grow through, cause that’s been, it’s such a challenge cause one of the challenges of that stage 3 institution is that There can be a sense of if you’re not one of us, you can’t be one of us. Like, like, like you have to be this way to be here. And that’s so painful. And that’s so we’ll just go to that part of the discussion now. And I wanna clarify something that I know you’re not saying, but just in case any of those distractors are listening, that you’re not saying that LGS women are. Suffering in mass as a whole, and that’s the main of their experience. I think what you’re saying is, you see the areas where there is suffering among LDS women, right to that.

[22:53] Julie Hanks: And right. And it’s not, not every LDS woman is in pain. And there are enough women that are pained by certain aspects that that’s what I Choose to talk about. So

[23:06] Michelle: that’s I, and I think, like I said, I think it’s an essential part of our community. I think your voice is invaluable. So thank you. I think it’s very important. So I, um, just really quickly, so I, again, have someone more recently kind of coming after me again. You know, there is this perspective of if you If you disagree with something in the current narrative or even in a gospel topics essay, then you are not allowed to talk. And if you talk about something where you’re not in perfect alignment, then you need to be, you need to face church discipline. And I find that to be such, uh, like I’ve actually, you know, the interview right before was with Brian Hailes, and he, that’s the only thing he wanted to talk about is that I need to either Stop and take it all down or be kicked out of the church, you know? And I, I, yeah, it’s really an interesting person. And I can, I can understand to a degree, you know, but I guess I want to hear your perspective cause to me, I think that the church is so much better with you and me and other people in it. Then, then just kind of this perspective of, if you don’t agree with me exactly, you can’t be in the church. And we’re going to, you know, from their perspective, sever you from all of your eternal family ties, sever you from connection with God, like, because you disagree with me on something. So I think, like, like, I guess, I just want your opinion on how that would affect the church. Kind of make the case for why we benefit the church. Why it’s important that we’re here.

[24:39] Julie Hanks: Well, I’m trying to remember whose talk it was that talked about the choir. There’s different voices in the choir. Who, whose conference talk was that? Do you remember that? Anyway, that we need all of the voices in the choir. We need, we need that. And I, my vision of Zion is inclusive. It’s making room for Everyone who wants to follow Christ. And, and so I, it’s OK that people have a different vision of that, right? Like, and stage 3 in Fowler stages is conformity. And some people really value conformity, and if you’re outside of this box, you don’t belong. Like, you, they get to think that. But that’s not what I think, and that’s not how I live, right? I want to love everyone. I want to include as many people as possible, and I think that’s, I think that’s more Christlike. Right, Christ did not, like, who did he cast out? The Pharisees, right? Like

[25:50] Michelle: he didn’t cast out people that were kicking out everyone else,

[25:54] Julie Hanks: right, so. You know, people get to have their opinions, um, And It doesn’t really bother me until they they start messing with my personal life, like, say whatever you want online, but don’t mess like don’t, don’t mess with my Membership, that’s not your stewardship, yeah, yeah, and I just think it’s a very um Very narrow way to live for me and I, I, I remember being there like yeah, conformity, right? And if that’s what you value, great, um, but Uh, there’s a scripture. Obedience is the first law of heaven. Yeah, it’s not the last law. It’s not the second law. It’s the first. It’s the first, right? So we have to learn obedience, and then there are higher laws. Christ came to fulfill. The law of obedience with the law of love.

[26:56] Michelle: And I want to clarify for people listening again for the stage 3 years, you know, that when you’re saying, adding upon the law of obedience, it doesn’t undermine it, right? Because unimportant. It means there are other things that are essential to be included with obedience. If you, like my girls. Had a seminary lesson that just was so they still talk about it sometimes about which is more important, obedience or love. And as if they were in opposition and they had to, had to be ranked where they can’t exist without the others. Like they’ll they’ll, they’re, you know, love obedience over love creates this phariseeical self-righteous judgmental area and Love without any obedience or any, you know, creates a, I, I don’t know, like, like something else. So, so anyway, they both, I believe, can exist best with each other.

[27:45] Julie Hanks: So, but that what you’re talking about, the way that so many people in the church frame things in in binary, I do not think that way. Yes, I agree. And so when people, it’s like, does not compute. Why is it this or that? It’s both and, right? There, there is a place for obedience. There is a place for love, and the goal is integration, not let’s knock one out or the other. Like, and so, so often we rank things as more important, less important, where it’s, it’s all important, and we have to figure out how to weave it together in truth.

[28:31] Michelle: Oh, yes, I love that. And, and really, that’s why this message of personal inspiration, we need to know the voice of God and be able to receive direction so that you know which one to bring to any given situation, right? Like how to show up. I love, we had, um, I think it’s Um, Halvorson, give us a devotional in our steak. We’re doing tri-state devotionals. And one thing he said that I loved where he had a student ask him which side should I err on, kind of, you know, and, and the answer, he, he had to go home and really think about it. And he said that the answer he gave was, A. And on whatever side gives you a chance to er a little bit less the next time, which means value the relationship, value connection, right? So that you can keep trying to do it a little bit better. And I really did like that message, uh, that. That, you know, err on the side of keeping a connection, how that, however that works. So you can continue to be an influence in that person’s life. And they can continue to be an influence in your life, because every single person, I think we’re really on shaky ground if we think we need to teach someone everything and don’t recognize that they’re here to teach us as well.

[29:44] Julie Hanks: Amen. Amen. And it’s, if, if every parent. lived where the connection was more important than being right or forced obedience or compliance. We would just be a healthier world.

[30:01] Michelle: We’d be, we’ve been, we’d be getting design.

[30:04] Julie Hanks: And you know, I’ve worked with a lot of parents who are just like, you know, my, my child is not toeing the line, and it’s like I say you’re not gonna have an eternal family if you don’t have relationships with your kids. Like they’re not gonna wanna be with you. Like if you’re worried about an eternal family, you first have to build a foundation of relationships where there is a bond and a connection.

[30:30] Michelle: Absolutely. I love that’s so great. Yes, absolutely. And I, I like, I completely reject the no empty chairs in heaven idea. Like, as in, I, well, as in like, we could possibly have empty. Chairs in heaven. It would still be heaven, you just won’t be there. You know, I think, I think that it is like recognizing that each one of our children is here to teach us different things is so essential. And, and always going to the Lord as a learner, rather than the controller and the expert is the way to get the most out of this life possible. Right? And, and what you’re talking about that control does come from fear. And I always am like, God has not given us the spirit of fear. That is always the telltale sign that you are not on the, that you’re on a sandy foundation because you are dwelling in fear. And that’s not God. God doesn’t have fear about us. God, God isn’t afraid of the choices your child might make, you know?

[31:26] Julie Hanks: And I do know. I do know.

[31:29] Michelle: Yeah. OK. OK. I love this. Thank you. So I want to go to my topic for this podcast. And so, um, so I think that this message you have of personal authority, which is so essential, and the, um, like, like I’m kind of putting some questions together because we’ve been discussing them. But you’re, um, Your observations that kind of the lack of women’s voices, women not feeling like they do have authority, like, like their experiences don’t matter as much. As I have studied deeper and deeper, to me, I can’t help but Assume that that comes at least in part from our polygamist heritage, where our grandmothers, our great grandmothers were actively consistently repeatedly taught, not well, that that they were they were. They were taught to view themselves, and they were viewed by the community that was believing this, not as ends in and of themselves, but as means to the ends of other people. They were, they were there to bring glory to their husbands.

[32:36] Julie Hanks: The, the men are the actors, the women are the side, right? It’s about redeeming men. And so we, we need you women, but that’s why I say women are, you’re the main character in your life. You’re not an accessory. And, and in that, in the time, you know, in the 1800s, I mean, there was no women’s suffrage there, you know, like women weren’t equal to men in all areas of life, like they weren’t seen as equal and so it just makes that’s magnified like I think you put polygam polygamy on that and then Yeah, I, it’s just it

[33:18] Michelle: magnifies. We take that to like exponential proportions. You know, I recently had, um, I don’t think he’s a current polygamist, but he, there are a lot of people who still really believe in polygamy. And he explained it to me like, it’s, it’s, it’s written in the stars. There, there’s the sun and all of the 9 planets orbit the sun. So clearly polygamy is true because the man is the sun and why is the man the sun? Orbit right? I was just like, can you not hear how Insane and arrogant, that is to assume that, you know, like, like just these, it’s just a perspective. And so I do want to want to know kind of, hey, we’ll we’ll go to this question first to to be fair, because um um Do you see anything in polygamy that would be um that could increase mental health or that could increase the benefit of relationships? Like, do you see any positives to mental health or to the strength of relationships that could come because of polygamy or through polygamy?

[34:23] Julie Hanks: I think not because, but they might have been there, but they could have been there in other ways. So for example, like this, the sense of women coming together and com and uh, having a community of women, I think that’s really powerful, but you don’t need polygamy to have that. I think that might have been a byproduct of that. In some ways that would have been nice. But on the other side, it’s like, You’re sleeping with my husband and, you know what I mean, like there’s just, or you’re the first wife or you’re the 15th wife. I mean there’s just so many problems that I see with it, but yeah, were there some positives? Yeah, cause I think there are some positives. In everything, you know, I mean, there’s good can come out of bad situations.

[35:15] Michelle: That’s what you like, you can gain a lot of, lot of patience understanding compassion through going through cancer. Doesn’t mean cancer is good, right? It

[35:25] Julie Hanks: doesn’t mean everybody should have cancer.

[35:28] Michelle: Right. That’s the right way so they can have that growth or that, yeah, yeah. And I, and I, I cause I, I used to, I don’t know if you’ve engaged much with my podcast. Yes, I used to really believe in polygamy, you know? And, and as I’ve kind of had my awakening, like, my good friends, when I, you know, we, we, like, they have supported me profoundly through some really difficult times. They’re, they’re just central to my life. And the thought that like, somehow that would be benefited by sharing a husband, that somehow we’d be closer seems insane to me. Do you know what I mean? Like. Like, it’s so wonderful that we can share this companionship and have our own and our own lives and our own, you know, I think it’s so much healthier. So even that one fell apart for me. Also, the irony that Brigham Young ended the relief society and, and told the men if they see women speaking together to stop it because they needed to keep women kind of isolated to move into this new frontier. So in a way, That that falls. So I, I appreciate you trying to find, you know, I’ve been asked by some leaders to try to show the positive too, so I’m trying. I just can’t find it.

[36:38] Julie Hanks: Yeah. I’m with you. I’m with you. OK.

[36:41] Michelle: So, so do you, OK, can I ask, this is a hard question. And it’s OK, you know, I’ll answer. OK, OK. Do you believe polygamy? Is of God, was of God, or do you believe it’s an error of men? God established the perfect form of marriage that he taught that’s monogamy, and in this corrupted world, things get corrupted and confused and people make mistakes. I want to know if you think polygamy was inspired of God by that time. And then God didn’t need it anymore? Or do you kind of think it was a mistake?

[37:12] Julie Hanks: I think it was a mistake.

[37:14] Michelle: Oh, OK, I love when people will just speak. I should have known you would just speak clearly.

[37:18] Julie Hanks: OK. I totally think it was a mistake. I think it was a miss. I think it was, uh, yeah, anyway, I could, I don’t know that I want to go on more than that, but yeah, I think it was a miss and And I have more to say about it, but I probably won’t say it. OK.

[37:35] Michelle: Well, now you’ve got us all on pins and needles.

[37:36] Julie Hanks: I

[37:37] Michelle: know to slip out.

[37:38] Julie Hanks: OK. I, I think it was a miss and I think. I think heavenly parents think more of their daughters than to put them in a position where they’re there for the Exaltation of the man.

[37:57] Michelle: See, OK, everyone, does that does not feel so good. And it feels so good to have truth spoken. It’s like, good for our souls. And that’s part of why I want to do this. It’s hard to have to carefully walk this line of living halfway in a lie that just feels so awful to make other things seem to make sense, right?

[38:18] Julie Hanks: I, I don’t, I, I think that men and women are equally valuable. Absolutely. And I don’t, I still think we are in a process of that being demonstrated in the structure of our church.

[38:35] Michelle: OK. So would you agree that we still are kind of carrying the dead weight of our polygamist past in our, in our relationships, our view, our perspectives, and, and especially in the current structure of our church, how things are done and how things are viewed, because it’s not very, my, my grandmother was the oldest daughter of post manifesto polygamists. And so it’s not very far away. My, my mom. Like my sisters, I’m the youngest, but my older sisters grew up being told to get their brother a fork, if, or to, you know what I mean? to wait on their brothers. And, and, and I, I, I just grew up with a sister. We were the tag of them, so I didn’t have that direct experience. But it’s not very far away that that this was the reality.

[39:25] Julie Hanks: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it’s so much bigger than polygamy. I think it’s, I think it’s Let’s see. How, how do I want? So, there’s a theory that I love called cultural transformation theory. Ron Eisler is the developer of it, and she says that societies and groups organize toward one end of a continuum or the other. One end is a dominator model of social organization, and one is a partnership model. So, the dominator model. It has been more common throughout history, but hasn’t always been the case. Um, it’s, it’s men are more valued than women. Men are in charge. The fundamental way of organizing is ranking, so it’s hierarchy. There’s a high degree of institutionalized violence, caregiving is devalued, so anything associated with women is devalued. Uh, there’s an in-group out group. So those, those are some of the characteristics. And you can see, like, Hitler’s Germany, an extreme version of that. So, on the other end of the continuum is what’s called a partnership model. The fundamental way of organizing is through linking and connecting. So it’s, it’s a connection. Men and women are equally valued. Uh, participate in all areas of life. Cargiving and soft, soft values are, are highly valued. Everyone participates in caregiving. There’s a place for everyone in society. There’s a fairly, um, low disparity like in wealth distribution. Where over here, it’s like the top man, right? So in partnership, it’s not just all, everyone’s equal, there are leaders, but they’re in a hierarchy of actualization. So their job is to actualize the entire group. Where here it’s to actualize themselves and stay on top. Does that make sense? Yeah,

[41:37] Michelle: the whole structure is designed to keep them in power to serve them, which explains all of those components and the whole structure is designed to benefit everyone

[41:47] Julie Hanks: and to create connection. OK, this, so. We have inherited a dominator model. Polygamy is part of a dominator model. I in in cultures that I’m aware of that practice polygamy, it is a dominator, male dominated society. So that’s when I say it’s so much bigger than polygamy. Polygamy is an outgrowth of a dominator model. My view of Zion is partnership.

[42:20] Michelle: Yes.

[42:21] Julie Hanks: And where, who, so, so the leader, whoever the leaders are, their job is to lift everyone. Yeah,

[42:31] Michelle: I love. So Carolyn Peterson, I just interviewed a couple of weeks ago, that’s the exact word she used, is partnership. And I agree completely. It’s, it’s this equality, this foundation of the worth of every soul, which is exactly what the savior taught.

[42:46] Julie Hanks: Yeah. And in Third Nephi, when there was peace, and it’s like there was no poor among them. There was no hes. There, it, they were all connected. They, it wasn’t this, right? As soon as people start ranking, that’s when the dominator’s model starts coming in. So for my dissertation study, I developed a partnership model of family organization. So what would partnership look like in families? And I realized that that Uh, that a partnership organization in families would support women’s actualization as much as men’s and children’s. And so that’s what I created for my dissertation project. So, anyway, so I’m very passionate about partnership in family. Life, because I think if we teach partnership to our children, that’s the norm. Their brains are wired toward connection instead of toward hierarchy and violence and, you know, separating people in group, outgroup, and toward inclusion and love and, uh, relationships.

[43:55] Michelle: I love that. OK, I have to add one thing to your 3rd Nei that you talked about on the characteristics. It also says they did multiply exceedingly quickly, which I want, I think that’s important to point out for the fact of the excuses we give about polygamy. Oh, right, right. That, um, it’s not that it’s not that having more children is necessarily the best thing to do. I just want to knock down. Like I want to point that out as well, that that partnership model actually contributes not only to having children, but I would say massively to raising healthy, healthy children, children.

[44:28] Julie Hanks: And in partnership societies, men are involved in direct caregiving and women are involved in leadership. It’s not. Men are up here doing, you know, and women are down here. It’s everyone’s elevated. The work of everyone is valued, and it’s so it’s just such a beautiful model that’s really changed the way I view things and and a partnership way of organizing is my is my vision for our church. I Zion, that’s Zion to me. Like that’s, that’s Zion in our families, that’s Zion in our ward, it’s Zion in the church. And so everything I do is to try and move myself, my family, and everyone toward partnership, toward valuing unpaid care work, toward valuing. Yeah, and having men and women integrated on, on every level of society.

[45:28] Michelle: Oh, OK. So I have to ask, have you written that book? Are you going to write that book? Cause I think everyone is probably like, tell me what, like, I want to know more about like

[45:38] Julie Hanks: in

[45:38] Michelle: a

[45:38] Julie Hanks: family. Yeah. So I, I, that’s actually my next book proposal that I’m trying to finish that I have. Finished, but it’s, it’s, I’ve written a journal article that’s been published about my model and my dissertation is published. So you can read about it, but I, I hope to develop it even further into a practical. App with practical application. So at this point, it’s more of a theoretical model. And I, over the years, I’ve interviewed a lot of people and I’m, I’m really trying to figure out how, what does this look like and what do we need to do? How do we need to parent? How do we need to come together as, as partners, you know, what does that look like? So anyway, I’ll send you those articles if you want.

[46:25] Michelle: Yeah, did we just search them online? Like, do you want to tell us the titles?

[46:29] Julie Hanks: Um, yes. So my dissertation is called Procreating, Transforming Constraints to Women’s Creative Productivity Through a Partnership model of family organization. You’re not gonna remember that. So I can give you the link, and it’s a free open access journal. And then, oh, no, sorry, that’s not the journal, that’s my dissertation. And then the other one is called, um, I forget what the article is called. Well, well,

[46:59] Michelle: we can put the links below for anyone that’s that’s I think yeah,

[47:03] Julie Hanks: it’s been a few years, so I, I can’t remember the exact. title of that article. But that just goes through the, the model, the eight aspects of this model.

[47:14] Michelle: So, OK, that’s so and and I wanna say that like, what my, my oldest two are both married, my oldest two boys are both married and watching my oldest has kids and watching those marriages gives me so much hope, because I feel like that is kind of In the cultural milieu, that’s how, that’s how this next generation for sure is showing up very often. And, you know, that’s, that’s pretty quick change. So, so I think that that’s like that would be a very timely book to have for that’s

[47:45] Julie Hanks: great. Thank you. So,

[47:46] Michelle: OK, so my question with what we’re talking about is, I want to talk for a minute about how that benefits men. Because I feel like there is this sense, and even sometimes, you know, we hear about, well, they’re just losing privilege, which I think is really condescending and demeaning. Like like saying men are angry because they’re losing, you know, I think that this hierarchical model hurts men as much as it hurts because all of the men that are not at the top. Well, I think that the men at the top are harmed because I don’t think that that’s a godly way to be a man. I think it’s not a Christ-like type of man, you know? And all of these men at the bottom. And so this model, I think it benefits men as much as women. I want to hear your perspective on that.

[48:30] Julie Hanks: Yes. Humans are wired for connection. The dominator model is not about connection. It’s about domination. And so their basic need for connection is not met. Even if they’re being served, even if they’re being waited upon, even if the whole world’s set up to support them, they’re they’re lacking connection with their loved ones, with their, you know, their partners, their families. So if your, if your goal is domination, you’re not connecting. So there’s that. There’s, um, violence, so high degree of institutionalized violence. Perpetrating violence or receiving violence hurts everyone. We are all interconnected. So, so for men to perpetrate violence on other men, women, and children hurts them, and for them to be the recipient hurts them. So in, in every way, so to, um, so there’s toxic masculinity, that’s part of the dominator model, right? Violent, um, domination, don’t be sensitive, don’t acknowledge feelings, don’t acknowledge vulnerability, don’t involve in, you know, weakness, but be sexual conquerors, be, um. That, that hurts men. They don’t get to fully develop the, uh, the characteristics of godly people.

[50:04] Michelle: Mhm. And you know, I think that those grow out of, I think violence grows out of pain for the perpetrator because I think in this model. It’s there’s a, see, there are different models. We’re here, yeah, I have to earn and prove my worth as a human being. And I do that by ranking in the hierarchy, right? Like, not in a healthy way of helping people become their best, their best selves and live a productive, fulfilling life. But actually, actually, you can’t ever relax or just because you’re constantly having to compete for your place in the structure and having to prove your worth. And both men and women. We are living in this fear of God, who is said to be at the top of the hierarchy. Like it’s really,

[50:51] Julie Hanks: it’s really connection. It’s about connection to each other and to God. So the hierarchy shows up in very subtle ways in our culture that Uh, I often speak about, one is the idealization of motherhood. So some people misunderstand me. Idealization of motherhood is about ranking motherhood above women’s other contributions. It’s right here, right? Motherhood is valuable. Fatherhood is valuable. Being a brain surgeon and a woman is valuable. Being a single woman without Children is valuable. We don’t have to rank who’s the most, which is, you know, and I think in, in trying to value unpaid caregiving, we get into the ranking, which doesn’t value it. It just devalues other things.

[51:46] Michelle: That’s so, yes, and it all comes from, so this is one thing I wanted to talk to you about, because, yeah. Well, first, I wanted to say, it all comes from lack of our own sense of worth, right? Because we need to know where we rank in this hierarchy, and we’re vulnerable to that. Cause I did want it, so I’m gonna jump to this part. So, so I was raised, um, you know, wanting, my mom wrote, When I grow up, I want to be a mother. It was one of her famous songs. And, and, and yet I watched my mom raise her nine children and then become a very successful businesswoman. She My dad started their company, sold 15 million albums, and she was always on stages talking to hundreds of people, you know. And so, um, so I didn’t see being a mom as, like, I just wanted to be a mom. I loved babies and loved children and, you know, but it, it’s so, so I’m speaking to it from the other side of, uh, as where you are. So I think this is a valuable conversation, because I do remember like my 1st 4 were all in diapers together. I had 2 little boys and twin girls and 3 years, less than 3 years and um And it was so wonderful but hard, you know? Yeah, I did have all of this ambition. I was smart and I wanted to do things. And I was, and I was putting all of my energy. Like I kind of feel I was always the go 110%, the athlete of the year and the scholar of the, you know, and so I felt like God was like, OK, here, you can put all of that energy into mom, into, into being a mom. So I felt fulfilled. But I felt threatened when, and, and this is really vulnerable of me to acknowledge, you know, but I did feel really threatened when I heard career women in the church put on pedestals or honored. Because, because it’s this mixed message of, you’re telling me that this is. What I’m supposed to be doing and I feel a lot of fulfillment in it. But like, like, a couple of times, all this is all really kind of vulnerability overload. So no

[53:47] Julie Hanks: would be, but, but I love it. I honest.

[53:52] Michelle: OK, I, I, I applied to speak at Education Week a few times and I like, I have 13 children. I’m smart. I’m articulate. I’m Accomplished. I write, I speak, you know, but I filled out those forms and felt about this big because it was all about your professional and credential. Yep. And there was no value for what I have given my life to. And so in a way, like, so I want to talk about how we, I have my thoughts, but I want to hear your thoughts of how we can. Not feel threatened by women being honored in a different path or for different choices. Cause I think that it’s so easy as a woman who has a career to feel diminished or not accepted or made to feel less than or judged when, when Full-time mothers are honored. You know, I know even the terms are hard because some women don’t like stay at home mom, and they don’t like, you know, and then and then at the same time, how we can help women who motherhood is their career, not feel minimized or diminished when career women are honored. It’s it’s

[55:00] Julie Hanks: so. We have to eliminate the ranking, that one is better. And, and so many church leaders have said, motherhood is the most important thing you can do. What does that say to a woman who’s not a mother? They are in my office wanting to die. That’s what happens to some of them. They are because, so we need to eliminate the ranking. We can say motherhood is valuable, and we need brain surgeons and therapists and teachers and businesswomen, and it’s all valuable. Like, why do we have to say one is more than the other? So if, if we focus on connection, we see how we’re all the same, how we all want to raise healthy kids, how we all want to have good friendships and good family relationships, how we all want this want healthy societies. We’re, we’re all contributing to the same things and the same goals. And when you rank one, even if it’s well-intentioned, Above the other, right? Like that, that form that you filled out ranked uh academic credentials and above experience in the home. That’s not OK. Mhm. That’s not OK. And it’s not OK to say women who are mothers are better than women who aren’t mothers, or women who are mothers and work. That is not OK. That people against each other. If it’s about connection, it’s like we need to talk about how are we on the same page and I Honor women who are mothers. My mom was a stay at home mom, raised 9 children. I am grateful for her sacrifice. I wrote a song for her that she, that, you know, I’m crying cause it makes me cry. She gave her life to take care of me, you know? That’s huge. And And that’s valuable, and the way I do my life is valuable. My kids value me, my clients have valued me, like, it, it’s OK, we can have different impacts, and one’s not greater than the other. OK, one is not greater than the other, and we have to stop talking like, well, you, you’re not valuable if you don’t have a career, you know, or you’re not, you’re not valuable because you have a career. You’re your kids are gonna suffer and you’re causing the divorce of, you know, you’re causing divorce. Like that’s not OK.

[57:44] Michelle: It is, it’s it it it, you’re so right, cause I don’t, I. And maybe I don’t know, but I don’t necessarily see men pitted against each other in the same really damaging ways,

[57:53] Julie Hanks: because they are not pigeonholed and said that they have to do life the same way. And we have been told that we have to do life one way. That’s what God wants. And so I say, it’s like all men being told, you need to be a full-time accountant. And if you’re not a full-time accountant, God is not approving of you, and you will cause divorce, and you will cause your children to go astray. It, like, that’s just a really unhealthy. Message.

[58:24] Michelle: So we’re all reacting to this sense of our lack of personal worth, like, like thinking our worth is less than, right? Or, or we have to earn and prove our worth through our choices and accomplishments. Right? Because that’s what I finally realized is like, when I, you know, I love the story of Samuel the Lamanite, because I’ve experienced that in my life where, you know, up on the wall and the arrows and rocks couldn’t get him. And I really think that principle is, when I am completely standing in the truth of who I am as a valued, infinitely loved daughter of God, doing what I know God sent me here to do, I’m, I’m in vulnerable. Nothing can, can hurt me. No comment, right? But when I, when, when comments come through and hurt me, it’s because something in that is off. I’m somehow feeling. Not aware of, you know, so that might be an investigation I need to do to go, God, where am I not quite Doing what I came here to do, what might be lacking. Or where am I believing a lie that’s telling me that what I feel inspired to do is somehow less than, right? So it’s really up to each of us to do the work with God to find our worth, right? And make the choice. Voices that give us the most joy and fulfillment, right? And, and, and then we are completely content to see someone else standing in the joy and the fullness of their truth without feeling diminished because it’s not a competition. It’s not a competition.

[1:00:01] Julie Hanks: And we So that ranking has creeped into the church because the church was formed in a dominator society, and we just think that’s normal. It’s not normal and it’s not Zion like it’s, I’m so passionate about this. We have to stop. Yeah, and we say, oh, the primary, you know, the primary nursery leaders just as important as the bishop. We don’t believe that. We think the bishop’s more important. He’s in in Zion, it’s not that way, right? Like there is no Is, there is no, oh, you’re more righteous, you’re more this, or you’re, you know, you’re following the prophet and you’re not. And and I think you’re right that when we are right in with God and know why we’re here. There’s no threat. Right? Like, Like, I can go, that is amazing that you are living, you’re fulfilling the measure of your creation at this point in your life. And you, it may change, and I may change. My missions may evolve. It’s like I can just celebrate you and go, yay, way to go, because I see divinity in you. I see, I, I, you know, I see divine in you and That’s how I try to live. I see divine in everyone. It doesn’t matter what you’re doing. It doesn’t matter if you’re a homeless person on the street. I’m gonna look you in the eye and acknowledge like you are divine. Just as divine as the president or the prophet or any leaders that we rank above other people. Everyone is divine and there’s there’s no one whose contribution is less or more. And we don’t have to earn our our value. I’m just so over that.

[1:01:54] Michelle: OK, I, yes, I hope that everyone is really taking this in cause I think there are some like, like. I think that it is this place of lack that makes us want to, like these messages that we are given or believe that if you choose a career, you’re selfish. If you choose to raise your children full time or stay, stay, you know, be the primary care caregiver for your children, then you’re not, you, you don’t have ambition, you’re not

[1:02:21] Julie Hanks: accomplished. You’re giving up. You’re giving up your, yeah, yeah,

[1:02:25] Michelle: and, and, and, and, and it’s just so. Hurtful and yet so deep, it’s so deeply entrenched, and I, I see it echoes of Our great grandmothers vying for worth, both in their husband’s eyes and in God’s eyes. And no one had what they needed. No one was fulfilled, like, even financially and physically, let alone emotionally. Right. So we have, I think it’s. It’s important for us to recognize these, this kind of generational trauma that’s been handed down to us, that is in uh, in us. And also, we’re like, we have to heal so completely that the institution becomes healed because of us, because we’re in.

[1:03:10] Julie Hanks: And if you think about the paradigm for women. It’s binary. And I don’t, I don’t buy that. It, it’s not stay at home full time or work 80 hours a week. What I did was weave together several different careers and family, and I was the primary caregiver, and we had people that helped, and my husband was totally engaged the whole time. And like, you can weave a life that works for you, and so we just need to stop. Putting, trying to put women in boxes. We don’t put men in boxes as, as we do, but not as much in the church. Men can have careers and be good dads.

[1:03:54] Michelle: In

[1:03:54] Julie Hanks: fact, careers are part of being a good dad. And, and so it’s not as binary for men.

[1:04:01] Michelle: Yeah, yeah, it is, it is more of a struggle for women, I think. And, and for me, as we’re talking, I’m thinking the solution really is. Encouraging everybody, but women and girls in particular, to to do like, come to know God, come to know what you are here to do. And when you start to get inklings of that, it will be delicious to you and it will be exciting to you. And you step into it. And sometimes it will be hard, and sometimes it will be rewarding, you know, but, but live your best life that God is telling you to live. And don’t expect that other people have to get your same answers. If different people get different it doesn’t invalidate yours. Right. Yeah.

[1:04:43] Julie Hanks: Yeah. That is, I spent so many years feeling like something was wrong with me. I must not be righteous because I did not feel called to be home full time. I, I just never did, like it was like, OK, it’s this and this, it’s this and this, and I felt like I maybe I’m just not righteous. And then I, I gave that, it’s like, you know what? My life is amazing. So, OK. Mhm. This, it’s not serving me to feel shame about who I am or what I feel like my gifts and talents are. It’s serving no one, so I just, I mean, and, and doing my PhD actually really helped me resolve some of that shame of like, you know what? I, I’ve just got to be OK with what personal revelation I’m getting for me, and that’s why I talk so much about women taking responsibility, cause that was so important for me and my own journey to go, it’s OK. It’s OK, and it’s OK that my stuff is really visible. Like, and it doesn’t make it any better than anybody else’s contribution that’s less visible.

[1:06:02] Michelle: Yeah, OK. And I have to acknowledge that for me, part of my, like, like I am, I can very much tap into those feelings of jealousy or because I was so Able, I, I could have done anything, right? And, and I did motherhood. And so it’s really easy to want to cover my feelings of of lack of jealousy of less than by judging. Right? Like as a young mom to go, well, I’m doing the higher calling. Well, I’m, you know, And, um, in fact, yeah, I, I think Sherry Du tells a story about that, that she was giving a talk somewhere and a woman said to her, Oh, I was so jealous listening to you and seeing your platform. But then I realized, but I’ve done what God wants women to do. And, and that actually, like Sherri Du and all of her accomplishments, she is very vulnerable because she experiences this pain. None of us has it all, right? None of us in this life. At every minute of this life, gets to do everything that that we might want to do, right? And we don’t recognize how much our need to justify our own choices by judging others, how destructive that can be. Like, like this connection model. is so beautiful. And I think we all have a responsibility to recognize our place in the sisterhood, to, to, like, we have the responsibility to be so secure and joyful in our choices. And if we’re not to do the work to step, go that direction so that we can contribute connection rather than separation, which grows out of our own lack.

[1:07:40] Julie Hanks: Right. Yeah. Yeah. I, I totally agree. I think, and I think that Vying for position above someone else is part of the dominator model. It’s part of of patriarchy, right? And women trying to get power by associating with things that are valued in whatever group you’re in.

[1:08:08] Michelle: OK, OK,

[1:08:10] Julie Hanks: so, so it’s like if you’re, if you choose to be a full-time stay at home mom. That’s valued in LDS culture, like as the highest calling. Right? But it’s not necessarily valued in the broader culture. Maybe what like having a PhD is more valued. So maybe it’s like, but we have to let go of what’s more valued and recognize we have equal value. Our contributions are equal and Uh yeah, we, we need to just stop, stop it and support each other.

[1:08:55] Michelle: Learn to see through the eyes of the savior who sees the individual, the worth of each individual in their own circumstances with their own challenges that on their own trajectory and and and like the more, the more that we can become like the savior, the less we will be prone to this model, to these on both sides of it, feeling because we have, I think I’m realizing we have to take responsibility for our own feelings of inferiority as well, because that’s we’re just as much as that. Hierarchy and judgment.

[1:09:26] Julie Hanks: And some people have betrayed their themselves and their personal revelation because of external authority. And that’s when they come to me and they’re really angry because they actually did the thing someone else told them to do, but they didn’t really feel was what they wanted or what they, their calling was. And so, It’s, it’s it’s complicated, you know, it’s just complicated.

[1:09:56] Michelle: OK, so a couple of questions. What counsel do you have for men or women who are realizing they’re in that position where they have been in this hierarchy model, trying to measure up, always feeling not good enough, right? Isn’t that the story? And not making their own, not they didn’t live their own life. What can they do when they start waking up to that?

[1:10:21] Julie Hanks: Yeah. I think the first thing is recognized that no experience is wasted.

[1:10:27] Michelle: OK. That’s so,

[1:10:29] Julie Hanks: so say you, you wanted to be an opera singer and you felt that was what God wanted you to do, but because the prophet said be stay at home mom, you were a state, you know, and, and you, it’s like valuing the choice that you did make and the experiences that you learned because I think life is about growth. And so there is whatever you’re doing, you’re growing, you’re learning, you’re gaining experience and that’s why we’re here. So, so to not devalue what you did do? And then to really claim ownership of your life and then ask, OK, what can I do now to fulfill that. Dream or mission or whatever is calling to you. And how, how can you integrate that into your life now?

[1:11:21] Michelle: OK. I love that so much. So you, I, I love, like, the answer was perfectly what I, you know, what I would want you to say. I loved it. And I think in the opera singer model, can I just share a little thought I have? Because for me, it’s really helpful to, I don’t know, I, I, I just thought even like, like asking the Lord, how has that been fulfilled in my life? How has that talent that I feel was somewhat wasted? How has that been used? Because Like, the Lord can open to your mind how many angels were there listening when you were singing your baby lullabies. Do you know what I mean? Like, like, you don’t know the impact that your talent had. Right. It’s not limited to what the expectation was. You have a limited view of how this talent should be manifested in this world. But you don’t really have the, you know, like, like God knows all perspective. Yeah. So you’re right, nothing is wasted. You can have to show you how it was valued, how it was used, and then how you can go forward to continue to use it more. Like the talents and dreams you have. OK.

[1:12:29] Julie Hanks: And valuing, valuing and, and I don’t. I don’t even know if talents are ever wasted,

[1:12:38] Michelle: right,

[1:12:38] Julie Hanks: and gifts are ever. I just, I think we, you know, our lives take different paths and I, and like you’re saying, I think. Things evolve and, you know, Yeah, I’m curious, what do you have a talent that you feel like that you have felt was wasted in your life? Like, I mean, not, you may not now, but at some point. Well,

[1:13:01] Michelle: I’ve, I’ve often, so my story, I was like, like all state athlete growing up. I played basketball and soccer, and I also, I majored in musical music dance theater at BYU, which, you know, so I had all of these different and then I was a 4. No, student in chemistry and physics and, you know, so, so, and then I grew up and had all these babies and wasn’t diagnosed until almost 40 with ADD and realized, I like, I had all of these talents. Oh, see, I’m gonna cry. It’s OK. Um, I had all these talents and I’m a really good mom. But I was, I struggled to the depths with keeping my house clean and keeping things ordered. And talk about judgment as a Mormon mom. You know, like I taught myself to cook, I taught myself to can and do food storage, and I always could give wonderful lessons. I wrote children’s books. I always was teaching musical, you know, like, like we, I homeschooled, so I always was doing putting on shows with all the homeschool kids. And, you know, like I had all of these things. I contributed. I was Like, like, I love math. I could teach my kids any topic, but like, you know, my husband’s mom kept an immaculate home has OCD and I never could measure up, right? And so I always was like, God, why did you give me all of these talents that Don’t do me any good as a mom, and this is so hard for me, and I constantly feel like a failure, and I hate it. I hated all the years of spending all of my like I worked so long trying to go. You know, I finally learned, OK, this is the way to be a mom. Magnify your talents, lean into those while trying to minimize your your weaknesses, but don’t spend so much effort on only your weaknesses that it sucks all of the joy out of life and you don’t have any focus for your talents, you know? So that’s what you asked, but I kind of had this massive challenge that and every time I would fast and pray and be like, OK, Lord, you’ve told me that. I’m given weaknesses so I can be humble. And if I humble myself, I, you can make me think strong. And I kept waiting for God to make that weakness of strength. And, and, you know, I like every time I would fast and pray about it, I would either learn I was pregnant or I’d feel a strong inspiration to have a baby. And the Lord finally was like, This isn’t what you’re here for. This isn’t what you’re here to do. And, and I don’t, you know, I always am working, but keeping an immaculate home is not what I’m here to do. And, and my worth is not measured in. And, and it’s part of the journey to learn.

[1:15:39] Julie Hanks: Part of partnership families is the idea that the house is the families, not the moms that were ordering the house and working in the house is everybody’s job.

[1:15:51] Michelle: So,

[1:15:52] Julie Hanks: so that’s kind of how I saw it. And I was like, this isn’t, it’s not just my house. Like, If it’s a mess, it’s everybody’s problem,

[1:16:00] Michelle: right? I, OK, that’s see, because that’s another thing I kind of wanted to talk to you about because we all have the dynamics we have. And, you know, my husband had definite expectations and, and we’ve had to work through a lot of things. Over the years, marriage is always a challenge, right? But, um, but a lot of, I, I, I’m going to project myself and assume there are a lot of women who don’t feel empowered to reimagine their family because it’s not within their power to do that. And so that is another message that can be painful when you are like, this is my reality, these are my options, you know, take it or leave it, are kind of my options. And, um, and, and, you know, and, and I don’t like it was me that had the inspiration to have the children and it was, you know, so I be like, I need help, you know, there was, it was just very much my My job, my show, my, you know, my responsibility. And so, so I, I have my thoughts, but I kind of want to hear your thoughts to encourage people in general, but I guess women and specifically, who are not necessarily empowered to reimagine their family, right? Because they’re in the situation they’re in trying to make the best of it.

[1:17:17] Julie Hanks: Right. Right. Um, OK. It’s OK if things aren’t working, and if something feels like it’s not working, that’s valid, and it’s, it’s OK to address that, right? A lot of women have expressed to me like fear of disappointing their husband or he might be mad, or he might be, you know, feel he might feel like he’s not doing enough and it’s like Let your, let your partner have their feelings. Like your job is not to make them comfortable for the rest of their life, even though that may be what you were taught. If that’s not healthy, you’re not responsible. You’re responsible to them but not for them. So you’re responsible to, you know, be a partner, but, but you’re not responsible for their feelings or for making sure all their needs are met. That’s not your job, it’s their job. So being willing to confront hard things and let them have their response. Oh that’s one

[1:18:20] Michelle: thing. I, OK, so what I’m kind of here, how I’m hearing or what your what your words are making my brain do is, is like part of reimagining your family can be. Recognizing your expectations and how those can change, and what you think is required of you, and how that can change, right? That’s really what I have. Like, that’s kind of what God did when he was like, this isn’t what you’re here for. Your home is not going to look like a magazine cover, and sometimes it’s gonna be a big, huge giant mess. And look how much you love your children. And look How much service you do and look at all of these things you do. And that’s what you’re here for. So the way the Lord made that weakness of strength to me was to show me how it always was my strength. And, um, right? And so part of that reimagining can be, I’m gonna let this expectation of myself go, let this expectation of myself go. I don’t have to, I don’t, I don’t have to change someone else in order to reimagine. In my family,

[1:19:15] Julie Hanks: right? You can, you can let go of certain things and let people be disappointed or be upset or be whatever. And, and I think another, um, and hopefully, hopefully this book will come out at some point. So it’ll kind of walk through this. But having the hard conversations, and, and saying to your partner, The way we’ve set things up is not working for me. Like I am not happy, and this is, this is what I would like to see different. What would you like to see different? What are your feelings about this? What are your fears about this? Mhm. And, and having hard conversations and bringing that up. Uh, and then really like going through, OK, where is, where are things out of balance? cause just statistically and research shows that men have a lot more leisure time than women have. That’s not OK. That’s not OK. And, and part of it’s because they expect to have it and they have someone to support them in that. And, you know, part of it’s that women have a harder time taking that time. But, you know, it’s like looking at those things, like, what is not working and talking about it and making a plan. Um, I’m making a plan for how to change that. Um, one of the things I learned early on, so I, I was in therapy as a teenager, which really kind of helped me start seeing intangible things and questioning things a lot more and developing my sense of self. So I went into marriage as a 20 year old with a Commitment to self-development. Like I, I cannot stop. I’m 20. I cannot stop developing myself. I have to kind of, this has to be a thing, you know? And And so I just from the very beginning, expected my husband to support me as much as I expected to as he expected me to support him. Like in his family life and outside wishes and recreation and, you know, financial purchases or whatever, I just went in, it’s like Like we’re a team. This isn’t about me facilitating your growth, it’s about us facilitating each other’s growth in every single area of our life. And so I think to change that perspective of I’m now going to expect my partner and my kids to support me too. This isn’t just about them. Mhm. It’s about all of us, like we’re all on the same. Playing field, you know? There’s not one’s needs are more important. And so my kids grew up knowing that my needs matter, and that I’m not always gonna be there for them, and that I’m not always gonna sacrifice for them. I, of course, you have to sacrifice to be a parent, right? But, but that my needs matter and my dreams matter just as much as theirs, and we’re gonna figure this out and how can we support each other.

[1:22:26] Michelle: OK. OK.

[1:22:27] Julie Hanks: And that’s just a different way to think about it, you know, but that’s, that’s kind of what I came to and part of what informed this model is like, wait a second, you know, women’s development is just as important. And I’m not saying you can’t develop as a full-time stay at home parent. You can totally develop and you need to be intentional about your development.

[1:22:51] Michelle: Right, cause that’s, that’s been my, like, like, because I’m, I’m, I’ve always been. Like, I mean, audiobooks have been my best friend, my whole marriage, because I never have had time to sit and read, you know. But, um, but and then also, I think it is worthwhile to recognize all the different areas that development come in because, you know, like, like, I have always learned and studied and I’ve done all the things I’ve done, but I haven’t felt led to go get degrees or to, you know, and so, so I think it’s really beautiful to be able to recognize all the different ways to do it.

[1:23:30] Julie Hanks: And that it’s important, that it’s important. It, you’re there to continue to grow as you’re growing humans, as you’re supporting your partner, if you have a partner.

[1:23:42] Michelle: Mhm.

[1:23:43] Julie Hanks: That it’s all about supporting each other. Yep.

[1:23:46] Michelle: And then to recognize, one thing that also I think is important is to recognize truly what feeds you. So that you’re not, um, trying to feed yourself in ways that aren’t going to work and taking time for yourself in ways that aren’t going to actually, like, like I recognize pretty Early on, which, you know, like, for me, um, I homeschooled and, and snuggling in bed with my kids in the morning, like fed my soul, having them all come into my bed and we would sit and like play with them and they’re laughing and they’re cuddling and we’re reading books and we’re telling stories and we’re, you like, for me, that actually I I didn’t need my personality is such that I didn’t need a break from my children. I, they were what fed me. I needed a break from making dinner and cleaning the house. But do you know what I mean? And so, so you, you find out because everyone’s so individual and I didn’t need to go. To a movie or out to dinner or get massages. I needed the time and the freedom to engage fully with my children without all of the weight of all of the things I wasn’t doing in, in that time. Does that mean so I think it really is valuable to go, Oh, this is what feeds me. And that, so I’ll lean into that. And I really feel like the Lord give us no commandments, say we shall prepare away. You know, I really think there’s truth to that, that if you can get into, Lord, what would help me? What will feed me. Those things will be able to be accomplished to come into your life. Like, no one needs to live depleted, no matter what their circumstances,

[1:25:20] Julie Hanks: right? Right. Yeah. Yeah, I totally, I totally agree. And there are so many different ways to do self-development. Yeah, like Absolutely, because different things feed different people. Like for me, what songwriting and performing fed me, and that required me to spend a lot of time songwriting and Performing, you know, and so I would jag my kids there and I go, you know what I mean, it’s like we just, we just did it because that’s, that was part of my development.

[1:25:56] Michelle: Yeah. And what the Lord inspires is gonna work out. Like, I have felt for so many years, so inspired to homeschool my children, right? We’re in this different time now where more people have started homeschooling. And this year for the first year, I felt strongly inspired and led to what school to have my children attend, which was a major identity crisis for me to, for my first year, like. Like my little kindergartner right now, that’s my youngest child that I, that I get to raise, is going to go, if it, you know, it’s going to be in school his whole life, which is like, wait, I’m a homeschooling mom. But having the faith to know that what God inspires you to do is gonna be the best for your kids, it’s gonna be the best for your family, right? So, so you can, you never need to. And, and you just lean into following the inspiration you have, knowing that God’s gonna make it work out, right? And anything that doesn’t work out, that’s because that’s how it’s supposed to be for, for everyone’s learning and growth.

[1:26:49] Julie Hanks: Yeah. Yeah. So,

[1:26:51] Michelle: and so you taking your kids, like no one, I mean, you not being there all the time for your kids, as you said, teaching them some level of independence doesn’t minimize moms who feel like, no, I, I want to be there for them all the time. And that doesn’t minimize your choice of going, they’re gonna learn some independence because God sends us each of our kids,

[1:27:10] Julie Hanks: right? And people were put People to support our family were put in, in our path. Yeah. And we have lifelong friends who have kind of been a part of our support team for our family to help our family function. And, and when I wasn’t there, or my husband wasn’t there to To kind of keep things moving forward. And so my my kids were never like all neglected or alone or like not didn’t have food or, you know what I mean? It’s like they were, they were fine. They’re doing their thing. They always did their sports and and I just, I feel like there were people put in our path that that were there to help support our family and what our family needed at specific times.

[1:28:02] Michelle: I love that’s such, that’s so good because it also is how important it is that we have this community, that we listened to the inspiration, cause I definitely have exactly the same stories. I’ve had, like, uh, what comes to mind a sister in a word that just kind of pushed her way in and like, like I would have said, no, no, no, no, no, but she managed somehow to let me let her in and she just came and started helping me clean my house. Then I will. And, uh, like, like, part of my problem is I have really hard pregnancies, so pregnancy will just wipe me out and I have all of these kids and what do you prioritize when you’re homeschooling 7 kids pregnant with your 8th and can barely, you do know what I mean? If you stand up, you go throw up for half an hour, right? So, so, um, so a woman just came and started cleaning our house. Like, can you even believe that? Right? And so, so just, it is like we all need each other and God sends us a Angels on both sides and we can do our thing and live our lives. I think that’s. OK, so I, oh, your insights are so, I, I hope everyone is loving this. So I want to talk about one more thing if that’s OK. So the challenge that we’ve both spoken to a little bit of, um, Cognitive dissonance, confusion when our expectations are unsettled because I think we want everything in the church to line up. The, like, there’s God, the prophet, our leaders, are, do you know what I mean? And they, and the messages all line up and there’s consistency and simplicity, and we just obey, right? And when you start to experience that line getting squampous and going, Hey, wait, now what’s true? I want to talk about navigating that kind of the, the House of Cards, cause we’re taught, if then, all the way down, if you believe this, then you must believe everything that follows in the line to every last little thing written in the handbook, right? That is how it’s set up. So what, what counsel do you have for people who are kind of, you know, I I for a long time was in the LDS LGBT community watching parents struggle as they learned their kids were gay and things didn’t make sense for them anymore or and then I’ve been in the natural health community and the health freedom community watching people struggle kind of in a similar way with the church is saying this about. These you like all of the pandemic stuff that I really don’t agree with? Does that mean I have to leave? And, and it, it shakes people up. So what, what counsel do you have for how we can kind of Shore ourselves up to make that less likely to happen to be such a spiritual earthquake, and then if we are going through that.

[1:30:41] Julie Hanks: Yes. OK, first is recognize that life is messy, the church is messy, church history is messy, current church is messy. That it’s just all messy because it’s we’re on, you know, we’re in a fallen world, right? It’s just messy, OK? So to think it’s all gonna line up like once you have teenagers, you’re gonna realize that’s like doesn’t happen, um. Yeah, so one thing that I say, I don’t know if it’s helpful or not, but I tell a lot of people that I’ve worked with and and that DM me and, you know, ask me questions online is Personal revelation, personal authority. Ultimately you get to decide. It’s your life, it’s your belief, it’s your faith, right? Um. And so if there is something that feels wrong, That’s OK, and you don’t have to reconcile it. You can tolerate the discomfort of not reconciling it. So an example for me was the LGBTQ policy 2015, 15, mhm. I knew in my heart that was wrong. And I I knew it was destructive and like I, we saw it in my clinic, we saw like it was heartbreaking. I sobbed for a week straight and I don’t have LGBTQ kids. I have, I have, you know, family members, extended family members. But I was, I was gutted and it was the first time I was like, I don’t think I can stay like this is wrong. It’s so wrong. And I just prayed and prayed and prayed for weeks, and I was like, do I, is this like, do I need to leave? Because I cannot support this, it’s wrong. And I got the answer, be patient, my daughter. And I was like, OK. And the and I was like, I’m right. It’s actually not right and it’s gonna take some time to like get it back to where, you know, so my mission then became how can I mitigate some of the damage this is doing. Until it changes because I knew

[1:33:13] Michelle: it would change was intense. The damage was intense

[1:33:15] Julie Hanks: and it’s. Oh, it’s just heartbreaking.

[1:33:19] Michelle: We’re still, we’re still we’re still suffering from the damage that was done at that time.

[1:33:23] Julie Hanks: It’s right. Oh, I know we. I have friends who, you know, kids attempted suicide, and I mean it’s, it’s just been a mess and so I guess I’m OK. I’m OK acknowledging the church doesn’t always get it right. In fact, they get it wrong sometimes, and that that is a chance for us to wrestle with things and to ultimately go. To our own relationship with deity and ask for direction.

[1:33:55] Michelle: OK. OK, OK, so,

[1:34:00] Julie Hanks: So and you and it didn’t resolve the dissonance. I still felt it was wrong, right? Like, how could the church do this? But I, I got a message that helped me hold on.

[1:34:10] Michelle: Yes,

[1:34:11] Julie Hanks: right, until. And so you can’t always resolve things. They’re like the, the lack of representation of women in leadership. Like, to me, that does not represent how our heavenly parents feel about the value of women’s voices. Mhm. And I’m not gonna reconcile that. Because It’s not, it hasn’t changed yet, and I’m hoping, you know what I’m saying, it’s like, yes, you don’t, you can tolerate the discomfort and the ambiguity and the not knowing, and I’ve just gotten really good at not knowing stuff.

[1:34:49] Michelle: So you, it sounds to me like you give yourself permission to believe what is what you know to be true. Yeah. And which means even if that means that some things that are happening are not true. You’re OK with that, and you don’t think it means an all or nothing.

[1:35:08] Julie Hanks: Right? I, I don’t buy that frame. I don’t. Because we, even with like the policy, I feel called to stay in the church. But this is where I feel like I need to be. And so, uh, you know, it’s like, I have to wrestle with not knowing, not knowing the answers. Not knowing the whys, and I just give people tons and tons of grace. Like I The the leaders, it’s like they, you know, they’ve dedicated their lives to leading the church, like, who would wanna do that? You know, so I mean that I just assume positive intent that everybody is trying to do their best and they don’t always get it right, and I’m OK with that, and I don’t think it means I need to leave.

[1:35:57] Michelle: OK, OK, I love that. So So kind of one thing I say, God could change it if he wanted to. If, if they, I hate referring to God as He. I don’t know how.

[1:36:08] Julie Hanks: Well, I, when I say God, I mean them.

[1:36:11] Michelle: I do too. I do too. Just it’s, but, um, but God could change it, and God is giving this, us this experience. So what can I, I’m called to stay, I’ve been called to stay multiple times as I’ve wrestled with those questions. And so, yeah, OK, so I really like hearing you. Express how you do that, how you navigate that. And you mentioned you have one on a mission right now. Is that right? A son on a mission. And so, and then a daughter still at home. So my son’s leaving on his mission next week. Oh my goodness. Um, yeah, and it’s our 3rd missionary. And every time I confess, so, you know, I, it’s been hard for me to know whether to send children on missions because I’ve struggled like. Some of the things I woke up too early before even dealing with the LGBT things in the church was this idea of Prophetic authority, I guess, the the prophet can never lead us astray. And that, you know, like I, I didn’t even have any specific things. I just knew that wasn’t true and that it was a spiritually dangerous belief that set us up to not spiritually grow like we need to, needed to and to be unstable, right? And then it’s been interesting. to watch all of these different things happen and just see the church bleeding members. And it’s like, this is, this was the problem from the beginning, from my perspective. So how have you navigated the decision to have children go on missions, right? That’s, that’s kind of a hard one. Yeah.

[1:37:37] Julie Hanks: Well, it wasn’t my decision. It was, it was his decision. And I said, I, I don’t like, I think it’s great if you go, but if I personally do not believe missions are for everyone. I’ve worked in the mental health field in Utah, and I’ve seen lots of trauma from missions. I don’t think it’s the right decision for or the right path for everyone. So my son knew that he, it was his choice.

[1:38:06] Michelle: OK.

[1:38:07] Julie Hanks: So he chose it. I didn’t choose it.

[1:38:09] Michelle: OK, sure, sure. And I, I would say, but for me as a mom, I’m definitely involved in the counseling and the decisions, you know, I think, like I talked about, like, when my kids are little, they’re my stewardship. Then when they’re teens, we go through a point of joint stewardship, you know, and then they have their own stewards where I’m going to support. And so for me, that teenager, still, there’s that joint stewardship where they are looking to me for counsel and I’m wanting to, like, I think. In those teen years for me, it’s the best if my kids and I both feel good about something. Yeah, yeah. Oh,

[1:38:42] Julie Hanks: I feel fine. I feel fine about him going. Like, I’m totally supportive of him going, and I would be totally supportive if he chose not to go. But he wanted to go. And so I’m like, then that’s the path for you. You go, I am behind you 100%. And it’s been an amazing experience. Um, and he went when he was 18, no, he was 19 when he went. So I felt like it was like, I kind of feel like, OK, 18 is kind of like where you kind of go, OK, not that, not that you’re not involved, but at that point. I kind of parent like. Come to me if you, if you want my input, but I’m not gonna insert myself in your life and decisions unless you come to me. Like, cause you’re, you gotta figure this out, you know? So, um, and I’ve been pretty open with, with him about some of my concerns or some things that I’ve learned that maybe he doesn’t know that he might find out on his mission. So, OK, um. But, but not to the extent that it would damage his faith or, you know what I mean? So yeah,

[1:39:56] Michelle: yeah, my kids have all just grown up in open conversations about, about all of the messiness. So, yeah. OK,

[1:40:04] Julie Hanks: so what, what number child is going on a mission? My 5 out of

[1:40:09] Michelle: 13. Uh-huh, yep. Yeah, yeah,

[1:40:13] Julie Hanks: so you still have a lot at home.

[1:40:15] Michelle: We do.

[1:40:16] Julie Hanks: Oh my gosh, OK. You’re still in the trenches. Yeah.

[1:40:20] Michelle: Yeah, yeah, we are. Yeah, it’s fun. I have two grandbabies that overlap with my, my, we, we have 11 that we get to raise. We lost a little girl in 2020 and a little girl in 2021. So my youngest that I get to raise was 5. And then, um, ah, so you shouldn’t talk about it. Yeah, I’m

[1:40:38] Julie Hanks: so sorry. It’s

[1:40:40] Michelle: been so sorry. Thank you.

[1:40:42] Julie Hanks: Yeah, it’s just so. So painful.

[1:40:47] Michelle: It is. It’s been, it’s been a journey for sure. But, um, God is really good and can, you know, can help us through the unthinkable. And yeah, it’s been my experience. So, um, yeah. So yeah, so my youngest that is living is 5, and then we’ve got, we’ve got 7 boys. So, it’s going to be a long journey figuring it out. Really interesting cause you can’t know the endgame. You know, I always feel like, OK, God, you’re just telling me what to do, but I don’t know where it’s all gonna lead, right? Because sometimes, There are bishops or state presidents who are stage 3 faith folks, and some people live the consequences of that in really painful ways, right? And, and all all of us can do is do what God tells us to do, right? Right? And so. So it’s always a journey and, and that’s, and then, you know, my, my 5th has had some mental health challenges. He’s a really, he’s just such a great kid, such a sensitive kid, but I really, you know, it, it can be a struggle to go, do I trust. Do I, do I trust them to take it, because some mission presidents are fabulous and the kids have great experiences and sometimes it can be really damaging. Right? And, and also for them to go share messages that we all feel good about because, you know, I’d like, oh, go teach the Book of Mormon and teach about Jesus 100%, but The idea that they have to teach that the prophet can never lead us astray is a hard one, right? So they don’t have to teach that, unless they, you know, it can be complicated.

[1:42:27] Julie Hanks: Yeah, for sure. So just about the prophet, I, my personal motto is I heed the counsel of the prophet and the prophets and apostles. I follow Jesus Christ.

[1:42:40] Michelle: OK, OK. And you know

[1:42:42] Julie Hanks: so it’s not disregard, it’s not disregard them. It’s not either, it’s not follow every single word that they ever say or throw it all out. It’s like I heed their counsel and that weaves with what’s my personal revelation. What is, you know what I mean? Yeah, and but I felt like I, I follow Jesus Christ. That’s who my commitment is to, not, I mean like that’s what I’m committed to that.

[1:43:09] Michelle: Yeah, that throughout the scriptures, if you look up the word follow, that Jesus is the only one we’re ever counseled to follow, and we’re warned to not put our trust in the arm of flesh. And, and in Lehi’s dream, he wandered in the wilderness endlessly while he was following somebody else. It wasn’t until he prayed directly to God that the way. So I love your way of explaining that. Heed the counsel. That’s exactly what I do. But follow Jesus Christ and don’t think that everything has to line up perfectly because our history teaches us that it doesn’t,

[1:43:40] Julie Hanks: right? And it can’t, it, it can’t because it’s imperfect. It’s

[1:43:45] Michelle: right,

[1:43:45] Julie Hanks: it’s imperfect vehicle that leads us to Christ.

[1:43:50] Michelle: That’s what the church is. That’s that’s actually really good. We have the Lord is absolutely here. The Lord can absolutely be found here. And sometimes it’s through and because of the church, and sometimes it’s because of the opposition the church provides for us. Those are some of the ways that are just like families, right? Families serve us and love us and help us become our best selves, both through the positive support and through the negative things we have to overcome in our families. And the church is really similar. Right? So. OK, Julie, I have, this has been so valuable and how long you know if there’s anything that like we didn’t touch on that you’d like to, any wisdom you want to leave us with

[1:44:30] Julie Hanks: or nothing, nothing comes to mind. This has been so fun, Michelle.

[1:44:35] Michelle: OK. I just, everyone, look for Julie Hanks. I know you have your podcast that you do. Yeah,

[1:44:42] Julie Hanks: so ask Dr. Julie Hanks just wherever you get podcasts. Um, I have, I’m at Dr. Julie Hanks on social media. Dr. Juliehanks.com is my website. I have a, uh, membership group, uh, for women. I do group coaching for women who have an LDS background who maybe feel like they don’t. They don’t fit into the all or nothing frame anymore. So I work with a lot of women who kind of feel like, oh, I, I don’t know where I fit here. Um, we work on emotional health and mental health kinds of things and relationship skills. Um, and then my therapy clinic in Utah is Wasatch Familytherapy.com.

[1:45:26] Michelle: OK, and I know you put on some events for women as well. Yeah,

[1:45:30] Julie Hanks: yeah, so I have a, a, a faith expansions and transitions event coming up on, uh, February 4th, Saturday. I hope the 4th is a Saturday, uh, in Lehigh, Utah, and that’s for women, and we’re gonna just talk about like the faith stages and differentiation of self and self-development and kind of how to do that while you’re wrestling with really hard things related to. Uh, the church or the church culture.

[1:45:58] Michelle: OK, OK, and so just for anyone that needs to hear this, is, is your hope that people leave the church? Is your mission to lead people out of the church? Are you the one to blame if

[1:46:11] Julie Hanks: people Oh please. I’m like, first of all, I’m not that powerful.

[1:46:18] Michelle: I right?

[1:46:20] Julie Hanks: And I come from a different perspective than the people who are fearful of that.

[1:46:25] Michelle: Right. OK.

[1:46:27] Julie Hanks: I Um, I don’t think everybody’s path is going to lead them to the church, or I think some people’s path leads them out. And that is a personal journey that, and so I encourage people, because as a therapist, I can’t encourage people to stay or leave. That would be unethical for me to do that. Because what I believe is about me. My job is to help people figure out what they believe, what they want, what is emotionally healthy for them. So my job, my job is not to keep people in or to or to lead them out. I mean, That’s not, it’s to have them have a healthy journey wherever they are on the journey. So there’s no part of me that wants people to leave. And the feedback that I’ve gotten is that having hard discussions about some of these things that impact women help people feel like they can stay, and that makes me happy. But that’s not my agenda either. It’s to create, to create an emotionally healthy, uh, Culture and environment for individuals and families to thrive, to help people have good relationships, whether they’re in or out of the church.

[1:47:44] Michelle: And, OK,

[1:47:45] Julie Hanks: or anywhere in between. So I am, I am not trying to lead people. I mean, I’m, why would I leave people? I’m still in.

[1:47:52] Michelle: Like,

[1:47:53] Julie Hanks: why would I leave people out? And I re I respect people who choose to leave too. And that really bothers some people cause I’m like, that’s a legitimate choice. There are good reasons to leave, and I respect and honor that choice if an individual makes that choice. Like my daughter made that choice. I respect her. I honor her decision. As, as an adult to figure that out, you know?

[1:48:18] Michelle: And you don’t even only do that as a therapist because like you said, you do that as a mother because that

[1:48:23] Julie Hanks: the

[1:48:23] Michelle: job.

[1:48:24] Julie Hanks: I

[1:48:25] Michelle: feel like, right? Like

[1:48:28] Julie Hanks: your agency. Well, that’s a

[1:48:30] Michelle: big right. And trust, I’m, I’m always Like, trust that God is big enough to to take care of anything that all of us are getting wrong. Because the idea that in the church is right and out of the church is wrong is really not trusting God very much.

[1:48:45] Julie Hanks: Because most people in the world are out of the church. So like, so. What’s happening with, like, you think God’s not working with all of them?

[1:48:55] Michelle: Right? Live the most beautiful, empowered, love and truth-filled life you can, whatever direction it takes you.

[1:49:02] Julie Hanks: And right, right.

[1:49:04] Michelle: OK.

[1:49:05] Julie Hanks: Yeah, but thank you for letting me. I have no agenda for leading people out of the church. I have an agenda for people claiming responsibility for their lives and choosing their life and doing what they feel called to do in in their life. And for some people that leads them out of the church and there’s nothing. That’s not my Right, like, OK, that’s their journey, not it’s not my journey.

[1:49:34] Michelle: And I want to also add that Fighting to keep them in the church is the best way to get them to run as far away from the church as possible. Seeing someone, acknowledging their experiences and, and the path that they are going on for the reasons they’re going on it. And being there with them is the best way to let, let God influence them. Cause if you’re claiming to be a representative of God, and this is how you’re doing it, you’re leading them. That’s what leads people away from God, in my experience. Well,

[1:50:05] Julie Hanks: mine too. And For every person who some people claim I’ve led out of the church. There are 99 that are like, thank you for helping me feel like there’s a space for me. Right stay and not have it be black and white, and to tolerate not knowing some things and and so I’m like that’s great, that’s great.

[1:50:30] Michelle: So that’s exactly the feedback I get. I guess I just had to ask you as one wolf in sheep’s clothing to another. I’m sure we’ve both been accused. I’m like, neither of us could be more transparent. We like the wolves and sheep clothing are the leaders that are, that are pretending to be safe, honorable men that are taking advantage of the powerless and, and you know, like, let’s keep this straight on what what really are the dangers.

[1:50:58] Julie Hanks: Yeah,

[1:50:59] Michelle: yeah. Right?

[1:51:00] Julie Hanks: And, and again, like, I get that not everybody needs to hear or wants to hear my message, and they’re at a different place, and that is OK. There is a place for strict obedience. I’ve just found as I’ve gotten older, that doesn’t work for me anymore. That doesn’t work for my family, that Like, but it works for some people, and that’s fine. And I, I don’t need to call them names. And so

[1:51:26] Michelle: I will go one step further, well, where I will invite them into considering these messages because they’re going to be parents, they’re going to be leaders. And I would say that being able to grow in those stages. Grow into a new perspective, helps you be a better parent, helps you be a better friend, be a, be a better disciple of Jesus Christ, when you aren’t trying to control, but trying to love and understand. Right. Right. And so, and we don’t have to dimini dismiss obedience in order to Step into compassion and love and growth.

[1:52:04] Julie Hanks: Integration, integration. It’s our word for today.

[1:52:09] Michelle: That’s it. That’s it. It all can come together in beautiful ways. The only thing I refuse to integrate is the truthfulness of polygamy, that we can just discard and put in the dust heap, right?

[1:52:20] Julie Hanks: I’m with you. I, I, I, I do not, yeah, I’m, I’m on the same page with you, so.

[1:52:27] Michelle: OK. And thank you for being willing to just own that and say it and follow your truth and set that example. So,

[1:52:33] Julie Hanks: Julie, thank you

[1:52:34] Michelle: so much for spending this time. It’s just been delightful. What a privilege

[1:52:38] Julie Hanks: for you, Michelle. It’s been so fun to talk with you. Thank you. Thanks for your vulnerability and honesty, and thanks for giving me a chance to share some of my thoughts and, um, and again, like, I, I’ve said this in other interviews, but I don’t think I know everything, and I may disagree with something I say in this podcast tomorrow. I may be like, you know, that didn’t come out right or it’s like I don’t think I Have all the answers. And so I just want to be really clear about that. Like, I’m not out here doing what I do because I think I have all the answers. I think I have a unique perspective that I feel called to share at the end.

[1:53:19] Michelle: I love that. It’s almost like we should follow God and look to God as the authority and not put our trust in the arm of flesh on anyone, right? Take the goodness that we get from other people without expecting to put them. I, I’m just anti-pedestal in my life. Don’t build up pedestals. and do your thing that you feel inspired to do. So thank you so much. And I thank you, Michelle and good luck with all of your endeavors. We’ll look forward to your next book.

[1:53:48] Julie Hanks: OK, I’ll, I gotta get it done. I gotta carve out some time. So thank you, Michelle.

[1:53:55] Michelle: Thank you for sticking around for this entire wonderful discussion. I hope that you enjoyed it as much as I did, and I wanna thank you again for joining me on this journey as we strive to come to more truth and to more personal authority and more connection with God. Thank you so much for joining us. I’ll see you next time.