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The current church narrative found in the gospel topics essays is problematic. It is far from comprehensive or transparent, but beyond that, it is not consistent with past church teachings, the historical sources, the scriptures, or many current church teachings and statements from recent leaders. Yet, despite the fact that the things claimed in the essays have not been spoken by leaders, taught in general conference, and certainly not accepted as church doctrine, some claim that church members in good standing may not publicly disagree with them.
Let’s look at some of the problems with that claim, and just a few of the problems with the narrative — namely, the claim that reasons for polygamy were never given and that polygamy was not taught to be necessary for exaltation.
Links
President Nelson quotes
Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo
August 1852 Special Conference,
Orson Pratt, pg 14-22, Brigham Young, pg 25-26
Disavowal of Pratt’s “First Cause”
Brigham Young July 14, 1855 (JoD 3:266)
Brigham Young July 6, 1862 (JoD 9:322)
Brigham Young August 19,1866 (JoD 11:269)
Joseph F. Smith July 7, 1878 (JoD 20:24-31)
Scriptures:
Moroni 7: 15-16
Raise up seed: 1 Nephi 7:1, Jacob 2:25 – 27
3 Nephi 26:10
Deuteronomy 25:5
Genesis 38
Transcript
[00:00:00] Welcome to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon Polygamy, where we explore the scriptural and theological case for plural marriage. As always, I do recommend listening to these episodes in order. I especially hope that you have listened to the previous episode before listening to this one because I’m going to be referring to some things we talked about. And, um, as always, I also want to thank those who have contributed to this podcast. It has helped me so much. I still really, we’re, we’re growing. We are growing and we’re growing quite quickly considering the niche topic that this is, but it’s not massively quickly and, um, and contributions have definitely slowed way, way down. So I would appreciate if anybody. feels that they could help, it would be a great help. So on the topic for today, we are going to be talking about reasons for polygamy then and now. I want to, as I said, respond to some things that were brought up in the last episode and kind of cover some of the topics that I think are important for us to really delve into as we try to understand this topic and The current narrative that we are supposedly supposed to believe if we are going to speak publicly. So thank you once again and for joining me as we take a deep dive into the murky waters of Mormon polygamy. I am hoping that you have watched the previous episode because in this episode I want to go more in depth into some of the things that were discussed and really investigate some of those ideas. And so it will be helpful if you know what ideas I’m talking about. So we are there, there were a lot of things that we’re only going to touch on some of them. I, I will be, I’m recording this one before. Before I have released the previous episode, which is my discussion with Brian Hailes. So I probably don’t have all of the insights from comments that I will have. So I’m just going to cover some of the topics, and as I said, I hope that I will have a future opportunity to discuss again with Brian Hill so we can look at some other topics and maybe redress some of these. So first of all, I want to address the idea that um, Our choices are to either be in perfect agreement with the current church narrative on pretty much every topic or speak only in our families or be silent, that we can’t, we can’t speak out publicly if we have a different viewpoint or perspective. I want to talk about that because I find that really troubling and so that’s the first thing I want to look at. So. The first question I have is how do we define authority, right? What are the ideas that we know we need to be in in alignment with and where do they come from and what’s the authority for them? So it does seem that there are quite a few members who seem to believe that we have to be in perfect agreement on every topic, even if it’s only the gospel topics essays, and so. Part of the reason I think this is is that this is important is because the Gospel topics essays are very obscure. They were not released in a church magazine, which I think we’re allowed to disagree with things that are in church magazines, right? They Certainly have never been spoken by any church leaders over the pulpit in any general conference. In fact, if you search for plural marriage or polygamy in in general conference on the LDS.org website, you only get strong disavowals of Of polygamy there, there’s, that’s pretty much all that has been spoken. So the ideas that are contained in the Gospel topics essay, it’s really hard to say that those those stand up to the level that those meet the level of authority that would need to be claimed to say that we’re not allowed to disagree with them,
[00:03:54] right? Does does that make sense? And so, um, so it’s pretty difficult to To make that claim. Also, many of the ideas in the Gospel Topics essays, at least from my perspective, speaking specifically about the ones on polygamy, don’t, don’t stand up to historical scrutiny in my experience. So I know that there are different perspectives, and I really hope that everyone is doing their own investigation and exploration. Cause I don’t want to be the authority for anyone. I am just sharing my journey, my studies, the things I’m learning, and I think it’s great when we discuss, especially as I said with my, in my last discussion, when we discussed with people who disagree with us, because that’s how I came to learn so much more. I found those discussions to be invaluable. So we’re gonna talk about, um, a lot of, a bit of this today at least. So, This question of authority, right, because if we agree with the Gospel topics essays, we disagree with previous prophets and apostles in strong, repeated, powerful statements made in general conferences over decades, right? So So while we want everything to line up in a really simple, easy, clean, black and white picture, it really doesn’t do that. And so, so it seems like, you know, we kind of want to sugarcoat things and keep some things obscure and hidden so that we don’t have to make this difficult. I I completely understand why the Gospel Topics essays were simply put on the website, because why introduce problems to people who don’t already have problems, right? That I I’m, I’m not at all critical of that decision. I think those were probably very difficult decisions to make. I also am not um Upset about how the Gospel topics essays were done, we have some really difficult things that we are trying to navigate right now as more of our history has become, has, has become public, and I think that that’s a delicate tricky process, and I think that the, you know, we know that the church leaders delegated and hired people to work on the gospel topics essays. They have a whole team of historians who were the ones doing those. With outside help and and you know, while they were signed off on by the church leaders, I don’t think that the church leaders are the authorities on church history and on all of the sources, so they’re just trying to do their best to navigate these, these difficult topics in the ways in ways that will cause the fewest problems for the fewest amount of people, right? I completely understand that and I’m sympathetic to it. For me, I’m in a different place where I have delved in. I have studied deeply and I do think it’s important to contribute to the conversation for those who happen to be interested. Again, I’m not a general authority on a, on a platform that a general authority would be on. It’s very clear that I am just a member of the church, sharing my perspective for those who care to listen, so. So that’s what I’m going to continue to do and hope that it’s helpful to people.
[00:06:56] I am very gratified when I hear from people. Sorry, I just got another message this week that really touched me. So I’m, I find it hugely gratifying to know that people are finding value in what I’m doing and are being benefited by discovering more truth, at least what I consider to be truth of what rings, rings truthful to me. So, So for this problem of us wanting to have this really pretty picture of all of the profits over time lining up in agreement and it being easy for us to to keep our belief in prophetic infallibility, which really is what we claim that you have to believe, right? If you’re not allowed to speak even in disagreement to a gospel topics essay that hasn’t been those principles haven’t been taught by any general authorities. I couldn’t even find a conference talk where a general authority at any level spoke about Joseph Smith’s polygamy, right? It seems like that’s definitely something that we should have the freedom to discover and discern for ourselves and hold the perspectives that God inspires us to have. I just do not believe at all that The Holy Ghost would only inspire us to believe what’s written in a gospel topic essay. That just seems, seems insane to me. So, so my solution to this problem of authority is the Book of Mormon, right? It’s all there in the Book of Mormon in my in my perspective. We are warned repeatedly not to put our trust in the arm of flesh. I think that’s so important. Here is just One of many examples where we’re taught this, it’s Maroni 7, 15, and 16. Well, well, I’m this isn’t about not putting our trust in the flesh, which we are repeatedly told. I don’t know if I have that scripture, but we are told how to find truth, right? We’re warned against looking to other mortals to be our source of truth, putting them on a pedestal or in the place of God, and we are told repeatedly how we can find truth. So that’s where Moroni 7:15 and 16 come in. For behold my brethren, it is given unto you to judge that ye may know good from evil, and I would say also truth from error, and the way to judge is as plain that ye may know with the perfect knowledge as the daylight is from the dark night. For behold, the spirit of Christ is given to every man that he may know good from evil. Wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge for everything which invite us and invite. and enticeth to do good and to persuade to believe in Christ is sent forth by a power and gift of Christ. Wherefore you may know with the perfect knowledge it is of God, and it goes on from there. And again, this is, this is kind of the final plea in the Book of Mormon in the Book of Moroni to again restate these things that have been taught to us consistently through the pages of that beautiful and profound. book. The Lord wants us to understand that we need to have our own discernment. We need to follow the light of Christ that is in our hearts, right? That is where we look for our source of truth. And I also disagree that that is an unreliable source. Of course we need to be aware of all the things that can get in there and muddle the messages, right, our own pride, our own. Desires, our own justifications. There are lots of things that we need to be careful of, but to assume that that is an unstable or unreliable source and that external sources
[00:10:27] are more reliable is just goes in complete contradiction to what we are repeatedly taught in all scripture but most profoundly in the Book of Mormon. So I think it’s really important to recognize this. And the beautiful thing is that that teaching. Which I think is one of the most pure profound truths that we are taught. is also echo echoed by the leaders of the church, by our prophets from beginning to end. Joseph Smith absolutely taught that, and I have quotes here from Brigham Young and President Nelson, who are at this behind the bookends of our leadership in Utah, right? So I, I’ve always loved this story. Brigham Young taught in his day and President Nelson is teaching in his day the same thing, which is the necessity of having the Holy Spirit for ourselves so that we can discern truth. So here’s what Um, Brigham Young recorded and taught that Joseph Smith told him in a dream. Shortly after Brigham became the president, Joseph appeared to him in a dream and taught this. Tell the people to be humble and faithful and to be sure to keep the spirit of the Lord, and it will lead them right, right? He didn’t say, Tell the people to listen to you and look to you for their authority and to to discern truth. Joseph, like Joseph, the thing he wanted to tell Brigham was Tell them to follow the spirit, and I think that was to minimize the mistakes that any one leader can make knowing that every human being makes mistakes. It goes on. Be of why you should tell them. Be careful and not turn away the still small voice. It will teach you how to do it. It will teach you how to do and where to go. It will yield the fruits of the kingdom. Tell the brethren to keep their hearts open to conviction. So when, so when the Holy Spirit comes to them. Their hearts will be ready to receive it. Then they can tell the spirit of the Lord from all of all other spirits. It will whisper peace and joy to their souls. It will take malice, hatred, strife, and all evil from their hearts, and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness, and build up the kingdom of God. Tell the brethren if they will follow the Spirit of the Lord, they will go. Right, be sure to tell the people to keep the spirit of the Lord, and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in heaven before they came into the world. Tell the people to be sure to keep the spirit of the Lord and follow it, and it will lead them right. I tend to believe this story. I tend to believe that Joseph Smith was desperately saying to Brigham Young. Tell the people to rely on the spirit, not on you, right, because there were many mistakes made and many false things taught, and, and I really like sort of the persistent need to get this message through to the people. And one thing I wanted to say when I read, I forgot to say when I read the scripture in Maroni, that we know that things that invite us and entice us to do good and believe in Christ, that those come from Jesus Christ, and it goes, I mean, those come from the spirit of truth. and it goes on to say that things that destroy faith do not, and I, I strongly believe that polygamy has destroyed more testimonies than just about anything else, right, when people get into this and see what was done and what was claimed, what the claims of what Joseph Smith did and then what was taught later on, that has been one of the core issues that has shaken people’s faith in the gospel and in the church and sadly. Because of how we teach things and how we tie everything together when people’s faith in
[00:13:57] the church is shaken, that goes all the way to their faith in Jesus Christ and sometimes to their faith in God. And so I don’t think polygamy passes the test that Moron I taught or that um Brigham Young taught right that that Joseph Smith told Brigham Young to tell the people the spirit teaches us truth if we’ll be willing to listen. That’s why this has been such a hard thing cause people are like, I know what the Lord, the Lord loves me as a woman, as an equal of any man, and this does not ring true to me. So how can I make this make sense? That destroys testimonies. We need to learn to prioritize what the Book of Mormon and the prophets from Bergham Young all the way to President Nelson have taught us to recognize the Spirit of God speaking to us personally. So this also, I think, has been one of President Nelson’s main messages that he has taught. I’ll read just a few quotes from him. I think this was in his very first conference talk. I, I apologize that I didn’t write the references here. I was hurrying so fast, so I’ll include them all in the notes so you can see the references for each of these quotes from President Nelson. And he said one of the things the Spirit has repeatedly impressed upon my mind since my new calling as president of the church is how willing the Lord is to reveal His mind and will. The privilege of receiving revelation is one of the greatest gifts of God to His children. He goes on to say, I urge you to stretch beyond your current spiritual ability to receive personal revelation. I just love that, and I know that. Some of my friends who really struggled with positions the church took starting particularly in 2020 for those who struggled with this, um, this was something they really clung to is that we are following the prophet because we are taking the Holy Spirit as our guide, which he has told us to do. So even if we don’t believe some of the things that he taught about. You know, about medical things that came around as answers to prayer, we are following him because we’re taking the Holy Spirit of our guide as our guide. I just think this is an essential thing to understand. He at another time, I think he released a message in 2020 and he said, My beloved brother and brothers and sisters, I plead with you to increase your spiritual capacity to receive revelation. It goes on to say, Choose to do the work required to enjoy the gift of the Holy Ghost and hear the voice of the Spirit more frequently and more clearly. Then at another time he taught, I invite you to think deeply and often about this key question How do you hear him? All this was in his video release. Hear him. I also invite you to take steps to hear him better and more often strive with all your heart, might, mind and soul to hear him. And then, um, more recently, I think in the last conference, he said it has never been more imperative to know how the Spirit speaks to you than right now. In the Godhead, the Holy Ghost is the messenger. He will bring thoughts to your mind which the Father and the Son want you to receive. He is the Comforter. He will bring a feeling of peace to your heart. He testifies of truth and will confirm what is true as you hear and read the word of the Lord. I renew my plea for you to do whatever it takes to increase your spiritual capacity to receive personal revelation. So really we are in alignment with the teachings of of of. Our church leaders when we seek to do what we can to know the voice of the Lord, and part of that is being willing to believe the things the Lord is teaching us when something feels really wrong but we don’t allow ourselves to go to the truth we are being taught because we feel like we have to keep attached to these other teachings, we’re actually blocking our ability to receive revelation because we’re not accepting what we’re being given, so we’re confusing those channels and confusing. Our own ability to hear and receive, I think that’s important to recognize and understand. So we do need, I, I would just argue.
[00:17:55] Like endlessly that we need to put things in this order, otherwise in this order of prioritizing the voice of the spirit to ourselves because we are taught that in scripture. We have been taught that by the leaders of the church. And if we don’t do that, we are opening ourselves up to these problems that I talk about in the episode of House of Cards to this if then structure that just leads us to cognitive dissonance and confusion and to Having, you know, the throwing out the baby with the bathwater because it all just gets so complex when we are in that place of expecting that everything has to line up and that we need to def to defer our own personal inspiration to what is spoken by other people, even if it doesn’t resonate with us. And so um I think that that is just really sad to put people in that position of all or nothing, black and white, and, and then force them into a place where they have to. We’ll choose all or nothing, and we don’t know what they’re going to choose, right? If we choose all, then we shut down our own discernment. If we choose nothing, then we leave all of the benefits of the church and all of the good things that are taught and all of the truths because we’ve been taught that we can’t have our own discernment to sort out what is truth and what is error, and that may be different for different people at different times as we are each on our own individual path and individual journey, and I think we need to really Just give people the, the privilege of seeking truth for themselves because that is how we grow in the spirit. That is how we become more like God. We don’t, I, I just, I don’t believe we become more like God by shutting down the Spirit and putting our reliance on other people. That’s, and, and when we insist that people do that, we are blocking their ability to commune with the Holy Spirit and to come. God and to know truth. So it’s just very shortsighted. I think it’s very shortsighted to say that people who don’t adopt the current narrative on something as obscure as the Gospel topics essays and and as convoluted and contradictory and difficult as the essays on polygamy, that topic of all things to say you have to believe this one interpretation. And you have to take our, you have to, you have to defer to us on what sources to give credit to, what sources to throw out, what things to prioritize. Like there’s so much conflict and contradiction that that is very strange to claim that one person or one essay is authoritative and no one is allowed to speak publicly with any different perspective. I hope. I really just pray that that perspective doesn’t win the day because I think that that would be very sad and do a lot of damage to the body of Christ, to the church of Jesus Christ. It will stunt our ability to come to more truth, and it will hurt a lot of people who are genuine seekers and speakers of truth, right? And, and, and all of the people who find value in different perspectives because I, when I, when I apply those tests of the spirit to the Gospel topics essays, those essays for me do not pass the test. They do not bring peace. They do not bring truth. They do not bring enlightenment and understanding. They’re not delicious to my soul. They don’t bring me closer to God and to the love of God. They for me at this point they don’t do the opposite because I simply don’t believe the things that are taught in them. But people who are struggling to try to believe them, I would argue they do the opposite, and I think the teachings of the false doctrine of polygamy do the opposite as well, because it isn’t true,
[00:21:30] so it doesn’t resonate as truth with those who really get in and do the serious investigation and who really defer to the teachings of God to their hearts. I, I, and, and for those who do believe in polygamy, I would. Invite you to seek further, but at least, at least give people the space and the respect to follow the spirit for themselves on on an idea this messy, this complicated, this painful. We cannot tell people what they have to believe on this topic. I think that that’s really, really true. So now we’re going to go into some of the specific reasons why I feel so strongly on this and and why I, I struggle with the current narrative of the church found in the very obscure gospel topic essay, not spoken in conference, not published in magazines. Like, anyway, I think that that’s really a strange claim to say this obscure thing you have to agree on, like or or not speak publicly like. No, let’s not try to go there. I, I reject that. So here are some of the claims that are in the Gospel Topics essay. I just, I’m not going to read the whole thing I thought about it, but everyone can read them for themselves. I think maybe I’ll do a future episode at some point, breaking down those essays and the challenges I find in them. And so, so maybe that’s something I’ll do. I’m not going to do it right now. So right now I’ll just read this quote from plural marriage in Kirtland de Navu. It says, in biblical times, the Lord commanded some of his people to practice plural marriage. The marriage of one man and more than one woman. Again, I pose the question where, where was that ever commanded? 132 claims that it was commanded, but it can’t point us to where it was commanded. No no source on the church has a link to show us where it was commanded. There is nowhere in Scripture that polygamy was. Ever command it. I’m still waiting for someone to share it, and I’m sorry, we’ll get into some of these things, but the idea is that lever at marriage commands. No, the idea that Nathan saying God gave you these wives. No, I’ve done episodes on all of those things to show how misinterpreted they are, and you cannot twist those to make the Claimed that God commanded plural marriage, starting with Abraham, right? God never commanded Abraham to be a polygamist. God never commanded Jacob to be a polygamist. Both of those came through the failings of mortal people, and Isaac wasn’t a polygamist. So, um, and, and also, God never commanded Moses to be a polygamist, even if you want to claim. That he was. God certainly never commanded it, so that that right there is just a claim that I can’t, I can’t feel good about. I can’t agree with. I can’t believe.
[00:24:20] Then this is in the introduction to the essays. It’s plural marriage in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It says Latter-day saints do not understand all of God’s purposes in instituting through His prophets the practice of plural marriage. We’ll get into this more the reasons for plural marriage and the claims about that. Then it says the Book of Mormon identifies one reason for God to command it to increase the number of children born in the Gospel covenant in order to raise up seed unto the Lord. OK. We’re gonna, we’re gonna go through this one again. We have before, but this claim cause that came up in my last um discussion as well, and this, this misinterpretation, this out of context misinterpretation of this one part of a verse of scripture just continues to do so much damage. So let’s, let’s look at, I’m not going to go into Jacob 2:30 again or Jacob 2. We’ve talked about that a lot, but I’m just gonna make, look at the specifics of raise up see. If we want to understand what raise up seed means, we have to look at it honestly to see what it says. First, Nephi 7:1, and now I would that ye might know that after my father Lehi had made an end of prophesying concerning his seed, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto him again, saying that it was not me for him, Lehi, that he should take his family into the wilderness alone, but that his sons should take daughters to wife that they might raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise. So Nephi is telling us what Lehi said. Jacob, Nephi’s brother, and Lehi’s son, I think would be referring to what Lehi and Nephi said that God said raise up seed means. It meant covenant people, people in the covenant, and we know that Lehi’s children, all of them were commanded to take one wife and only one wife, right? Blake. Get blanket right there. We have to let the Book of Mormon teach us what the Book of Mormon means, right? Raise up seed means raise up children and a people in the covenant of God, and it will go on. We’ll go on to some other scriptures to explain that is a big part of the reason why Lehi and his posterity was led out of Jerusalem so that they wouldn’t continue in the abominations that were being done in Jerusalem. That made it hard for the Lord to raise up seed unto Himself through those people because of the abominations they were participating in, namely polygamy. So that’s, that’s the entire message that Jacob chapter 2 and chapter 3 is trying to. Teach us. That’s what Jacob is trying to explain about polygamy. And as a further reminder of what raise up seed means in Jacob’s sermon, we’ll again read verses 25 through 27. This is Jacob 2:25 through 27. I wish we would read these instead of just verse 30. So it says, wherefore thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem by the power of my arm that I might raise up unto, unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph, right? He wants to raise up unto himself a righteous branch, a covenant people. That’s what it means to raise up seed unto himself when the Lord says that. Wherefore, I, the Lord God, will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old. Wherefore, my brethren, hear me and hearken to the word of the Lord, for there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife and concubines, he shall have none. It is so clear, so plain. Jacob says you are misinterpreting the scriptures because of the things um, David and Solomon did to justify yourselves in doing those same things which are the abominations of old, which are.
[00:28:11] Rejected and which are why I have led you out of that land so I could raise up a righteous branch of people unto me. I could raise up seed unto me in people who wouldn’t participate in those abominations. It is so clear. It is so plain, and it is so sad. That we ignore it, that we miss it. The Book of Mormon teaches us that we have to believe what it says or we’re under condemnation, where it 30 by 26. And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them unto their condemnation. We still have not been given the greater things cause we still won’t believe what is so plainly taught in the Book of Mormon. We still reject it in favor of the traditions, the false traditions of our fathers, which the book. Morman also repeatedly warns us about, right? And so I think it’s very important to stop using this one little misinterpretation to undermine everything that God is trying to teach us in this in this critical book that we believe to be inspired and to be the most correct book. We just need to be more thoughtful, more honest, and more faithful to what God has taught us. I think that’s so important. And so, um, OK, I did appreciate hearing the idea. This was, I, I know I’ve heard this idea before, but I’ll respond to it here. Hearing the the insight that raise up seed is apparently the same wording as was given in the Lever at marriage that that was explained to us in the last episode. I’m going to look a little more into that claim too just because I think it’s important to actually take these claims seriously and look into them to see how well they stand up under our scrutiny, stand up to investigation, right? This one doesn’t stand up. It doesn’t hold up. So first of all, nothing about polygamy in 132 or how it was practiced had anything at all to do with this clan law of lever at marriage. This, this rule was given because in that, um, this is my understanding. I’m open to other understandings, but I have looked, I’m into other insights, but I have looked into it. And when the wife becomes the property of the family, right? She is, she, she can’t marry outside of that family because she belongs to them. So her only option is to marry someone else in that family. So they come up with solutions for what happens when somebody dies, right? It is not a lot that we need to pay any attention to, and it certainly had nothing to do with Mormon polygamy. Um, Mormon polygamists were not only marrying their dead brothers’ widows. That is, that’s not at all how it worked, how it was taught, how it was understood, right? This is a very weak justification to try to claim that there’s something here that isn’t here. And so, um, beyond that, even looking at the wording of raise up seed is silly. So we’re gonna, we’re going to go into that. So Deuteronomy 255 is where, where the leveret law is given. So I’ll read that. If brethren dwell together, so it’s almost saying they dwell in the same home or at least in the same clan, right? And one of them die and have no child,
[00:31:21] the wife of The dead shall not marry without unto a stranger, so that’s why it was given. She wasn’t allowed to marry into a different family. Her husband’s brother shall go in unto her and take her to him to wife and perform the duty of a husband’s brother unto her. And if it be that the first born, which shall she beareth, shall succeed in the name of his brother, which is dead. that his name be not put out of Israel. So it was when it was so important to have your posterity, have your name, and if, and if a brother died, a younger brother or another brother would have to raise up seed to his brother. Um, I want to notice that it doesn’t say raise up seed. I said that and I shouldn’t have. It shall be that the that the first born which she buried shall succeed in the name of his brother, which is dead, that his name not be put out of Israel. Nowhere in this where it’s actually given does it say raise up seed. Please notice that. So if we’re using the claim that it says raise up seed to tie it to lover at marriage, that falls. It doesn’t say raise up seed. Also, there was nothing there. There’s no relation between Mormon polygamy and lever at marriage given in Deuteronomy. Also, how many little rules and laws are there that we don’t believe anymore? Jesus fulfilled the law. We don’t need to tie ourselves to this, and we certainly don’t, don’t, didn’t tie ourselves to this. We didn’t believe any of this, so it cannot in any way justify polygamy in the 1800s. There’s no connection between the two. So I will go on a little bit more with this claim. Raise up seed doesn’t come from love or marriage, but it does come from the strange story of Judah given in Genesis 38. So it’s the story of Judah and Tamar. Judah, who was the son of Jacob, who is the father of the tribe of Judah, right, the Jews who Jesus descended from. So I’ll read a little bit of this very strange story, and then just explain the rest, and Judah took a wife for er, his firstborn, whose name was Tamar, and er, Judah’s first born, was wicked in the sight of the Lord, and the Lord slew him. And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife and marry her and raise up seed to thy brother. So this came before the law in Deuteronomy was given, so. I imagine it’s at least possible that the law in Deuteronomy came from this story, right, because he said raise up seed to thy brother. So the only time we have the term raise up seed is from Judah saying it to his second son Onan to go into Tamar, right? And remember these sons of Judah were very wicked. I was so wicked that God killed him if we want to believe that literally, and Onan. And it says, and Ona knew that the seed should not be his, and it came to pass when he went in unto his brother’s wife that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the Lord. Wherefore he slew him also. Then said Judah to Tamar, so, so let’s point out that Onan refused to raise up seed to his brother, so God killed him because he was wicked. Then said Judah to Tamar, um, his daughter-in-law, Remain a widow at thy father’s house till lah, lah, my son be grown,
[00:34:46] for he said, lest peradventure he die also, and his brethren did, as his brethren did, and Tamar went and dwelt in her father’s house. So that’s the story we have to this point, right? Tamor was Judah’s daughter-in-law. Her first husband was wicked. Her second husband was wicked, so both of them killed were killed by God because they were wicked in, in that paradigm, I guess. And then Judah had a younger son that he promised could marry Tamar. It turns out that Judah didn’t give that younger son to Tamar, so Tamar disguised herself as a prostitute. You’ll remember this story. Judah saw her and went into her. Um, so Judah visited a prostitute who was really his daughter-in-law, fulfilling the leveret law that was given later based on this strange story, I suppose. And this is where raise up seed comes from, is this really messed up story, right? So I think we need to be careful to not try to, try the term raise up seed to the Old Testament, rather than to the Book of Mormon in which it is clearly defined for us. So I will acknowledge the term. Raise up seed is repeated in the New Testament by the Sadducees who didn’t believe in the resurrection and didn’t believe that there was life after death, and they used this strange law and this strange story to try to prove to, to try to trick trick Jesus into, into acknowledging that there couldn’t be a resurrection because it was illogical because if, if a woman had to marry 7 brothers, then whose wife would she be, right? And Jesus gave his answer. So really raise up seed is not useful anywhere except in the Book of Mormon where it is clearly defined. I think we need to be really careful. So that’s my investigation into that claim that it has anything to do with the Leverett Law. I hope that that made sense and was useful to you. It’s just, it’s good to hear each of these claims so I can dig into them to see if there’s anything there. And so far, invariably there is nothing there other than Like, you just see how, how ridiculous the claim is and how we shouldn’t use it or rely on it or say it anymore because it just is not useful. It’s not true, right? And so, um, that’s, oh, and then the other thing I’ll say is that you’ll notice if you read 132 or search on, you know, search the scripture. On the gospel app for 13 132 for the term raise up seed, it’s nowhere in 132. So if God were trying to tie it to this somehow, he could have given us the term raise up seed. He could have applied it in some way to this lover marriage law that was given that we no longer recognize or live in any way. So I think that’s a claim that we need to throw out and stop making. So then, um, I’ll repeat now the next thing in the Gospel topics essay, let me read this again. Latter-day saints do not understand all of God’s purposes in instituting through His prophets the practice of plural marriage. So this goes along with the claim that the early church leaders never explained why polygamy was commanded, and that was a claim that came up in our last episode that really surprised me because I, I haven’t, I, I don’t remember hearing that claim before because and, and it’s just It doesn’t hold up at all in my opinion. So, um, and it also goes along with the claim that
[00:38:07] polygamy was never taught to be necessary for exaltation. That is one that I’ve heard before that I also have investigated. We’re going to look into that. We’re going to look into those two claims together because they are both considered to be part of the standard narrative that we, I guess, have to agree with if we’re going to speak on these topics, but um, I, I just I don’t know how to agree with them because they’re both just baffling to me. I, I think it’s very strange that these claims are even made cause reasons were absolutely given for polygamy and they were repeated multiple times by multiple leaders. So we’re going to look into those to see if polygamy was taught to be necessary for exaltation and if reasons for it were given. So, um, let’s first go to Orson Pratt’s, um, long speech when polygamy was first revealed in 1852. When that revelation was brought forward that became Section 132, I’ll say revelation. I, I, you know, It’s dubious to me. I don’t believe that it is a revelation from God. But um when it was revealed and when polygamy was acknowledged in that special conference in 1852, Brigham Young assigned Orson Pratt to teach the purposes of polygamy, to give the justifications for it, to lay the groundwork, something that Brigham Young would do repeatedly as well as we’ll look into. So this first claim from this speech should be enough to disprove both of these claims, both that the reasons for polygamy weren’t taught and that it was not taught to be necessary for exaltation. So we’ll read this. That’s at the beginning and in on the first page of Orson Pratt’s talk. We shall endeavor to set forth before this enlightened assembly some of the causes why the Almighty has revealed such a doctrine and why it is considered a part and portion of our religious faith. So he’s saying there in his introduction, I’m going to tell you why. I’m going to give you the reasons, right? He goes on, We will show you that it is incorporated as a part of our religion and necessary for our for our exaltation to the fullness of the Lord’s glory in the eternal world. Would you like to know the reasons before we get through, we will endeavor to tell you why we consider it an essential an essential doctrine to the glory and exaltation, to our fullness and happiness in the world to come. Pretty clear, right? I’m going to tell you the reasons, and it is absolutely necessary for our exaltation. I think the reason that we make this claim that reasons weren’t given and that it’s not necessary for our exaltation is because all of the reasons that it were given that were given generally claimed that it was necessary for exaltation, right? So it’s easier to just put them aside. So anyway, I wish that we would either say we no longer A vow that we no longer espouse those reasons. We disagree with them, you know, we, we see it differently now, or, or it used to be taught this, we no longer believe that we’ve done those things that with other doctrines, right? With other false or disavowed doctrines. So I wish we would do that because I just think it would be more honest and easier to be in alignment with. But to Claimed that no reasons were given. It just, it, it just, I don’t know how to believe that that’s true. So this long, this long talk, painstakingly goes into great depths to paint the picture of how they viewed polygamy. I won’t go into
[00:41:30] all of the details. It’s hard to find quotes from these talks because they are just so convoluted and repetitive. And so, but the, I will, I will do my best to explain the overall ideas that it goes to such great lengths to explain. Exaltation. Well, let me, let me go here. Polygamy, it was seen as the means of fulfilling the Abrahamic covenant, the way that we could do the works of Abraham and receive the promises of of Abraham, right, that we could have posterity as great as the sands of the sea or as great as the stars in the heavens. It was the actual means of exaltation. Exaltation meant becoming a god. And having eternal increase, which meant creating spirit bodies for infinite children to people many, many worlds, and that could only be done with many, many wives in their perspective. So literally, the more wives you had, the more spirit children you could have, and the great. your exaltation would be. They went on in in other talks to explain like, it was said, Who will you rule and reign over if, if not your own children? Other men aren’t going to have children for your kingdom, right? So it was very much understood that polygamy was the means to having Spirit children to rule and reign over and the wives were the means to that end. So, the more wives you had, the greater your glory, the greater your exaltation. That is literally what, how it was taught repeatedly, like consistently. So, He goes on, Here’s a quote. What does the Lord intend to do with His people? He intends to make them a kingdom of kings and priests, a kingdom unto Himself, or, in other words, a kingdom of gods. If they will hearken to His law. There will be many who will not hearken. There will be foolish among the wise who will not receive the new and everlasting covenant in its fullness, and they never. will attain to their exaltation. They never will be counted worthy to hold the scepter of power over a numerous progeny that shall multiply themselves without and like the sands upon the seashore. So I tried to pick that one little quote to kind of give a glimpse of what he is teaching. This was the overall explanation given for polygamy and From the many talks I have read, it is clear that it was the general understanding among the leaders and, and it was, it was, you know, the, the local leaders were told to teach the same things as well. So this was very much the understanding that was taught over multiple decades to the members of the church. It was the reason for polygamy. So let me quote again. He says, but again, there is another reason why po polarity should exist among the latter-day saints. I have already given you one reason. So do you hear how strange it is to say reasons were never given? He’s giving the reasons. I’ve already given you one reason, and that is that you might inherit the blessings and promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and receive continuation of your posterity, that they may be. as numerous as the sands upon the seashore. There is another reason, and a good one too. What do you suppose it is?
[00:44:37] I will tell you, and it will appear reasonable to every man and woman of a reflecting mind. See, this is how, how their talks are. So then he, he went into great lengths to talk about the primordial existence, that spirits existed pre-mortally, right? And that noble spirits who have been held in reserve and for 6000 years. So here I’m quoting again. The Lord has not kept them in store for 5 or 6 1000 years past and kept kept them waiting for their bodies all this time to send them among the hottentots, the African Negro Negroes, the idolatrous Hindus, or any other of the fallen nations that dwell upon the face of the earth. They are not kept and reserved in order that they come. Um, to come forth to receive such a degraded parentage upon the earth. So he goes on, let’s see, um. Yeah, he goes on to talk about how it’s so that these noble spirits can be born into our families because we are the elect, the elite, right? And this is, I’ll go into this a little bit more later, but it’s really funny because one of the kind of side justifications he gives for polygamy is that only 1/5 of the world doesn’t believe in polygamy, that it’s practiced by 4/5 of the people of the world, and he uses that for a justification of polygamy. While at the same time saying polygamy has to be practiced here so that these noble spirits won’t go to all of these other people who practice polygamy, right? Do you, do you get what I’m saying? That’s really a funny one to me. So let me go on and quote a little bit more. Now let us inquire what will become of those individuals who have this law taught unto them in plainness if they reject it. A voice in the stand yells, they will be damned, he says. I tell you, I will tell you they will be damned. Sayeth the Lord God Almighty. He then talks about President Young’s teaching that some damnation, some damnation is eternal and some has an end. And so speaking of those who reject polygamy, he says, they will be redeemed, but what will it be to? Will it be to exaltation and to a fullness of glory? Will it be to become the sons of God or gods to reign upon thrones and multiply over their Posterity and reign over them as kings. No, it will not. They have lost that exalted privilege forever, though they may, after having been punished for long periods, escape by the skin of their teeth, but no kingdom will be conferred upon them. So do you hear how clearly he is teaching polygamy is necessary for exaltation. Polygamy is the means of exaltation. This talk also makes it very difficult to understand the claim that polygamy was not taught to be the new and everlasting covenant, that the new and everlasting covenant is is eternal marriage, but it has nothing to do with polygamy. That also doesn’t hold up, but I won’t go into that in detail some of the quotes I’ve read, they they’ve already referred to the new and everlasting covenant, and that is what it was, it was understood to be. So, Um, this talk, again, I want to specify that it was given by an apostle by assignment from the president of the church over the pulpit at a special general conference that it was the general conference that was just held a little bit early that year in August. And it was assigned to to set forth the foundation
[00:47:51] upon which the saints could understand polygamy, and it was given right before section 132 was read and revealed to the people for the first time. Right, so the president of the church, Brigham Young, not only assigned the talk, and um, he was also on the stand when it was given, and he wholeheartedly supported it. So for anyone who wants to strangely somehow try to dismiss what Elder Pratt was saying by saying that he was only an apostle, as if they would let the same thing stand today if someone wanted to disagree with something that an apostle said in general conference. And we said, well, it was only a an apostle, right? I don’t think that that is a measurement that we can that that people who want to use against Orson Pratt would, would be able to apply consistently, right? Um, I want to read what President, um, Brigham Young said about Orson Pratt’s talk. So he says, and he’s, he’s talking, I’ll, I’ll read some more to show that he is referring to Orson Pratt here when he talks about an apostle. If an apos, if an apostle magnifies his calling, he is the word of the Lord to the people all the time, or else he does not magnify his calling, either one or the other. If he magnifies his calling, his words are the words of eternal life and salvation to those who hearken to them just as much as any written revelation continued in the. contained in these three books, he, he points to the scriptures. There is nothing contained in these books that is any more revelatory than the words of an apostle when he is magnifying his calling. So um that’s what Brigham Young said in his talk following Orson Pratt’s talk. He goes on to say, I preached, well, I guess it was the next day. I preached a short sermon here yesterday with regard to exaltation. I spoke but a few, um, a few minutes and brother Orson Pratt brought up the same subject. Then, um, he goes on to say, sorry, this is a dark copy, it’s hard to read. I had to print it straight from the Deseret News where it was written because it’s not, this isn’t in the Journal of Discourses. It is all connected with the exaltation of man, knowing how he becomes exalted to be a king and a priest, yeah, even a god like his father in heaven without the doctrine that this revelation reveals no man on earth. Ever could be exalted to be a god. So that is what they said in this very first conference about polygamy. And then, um, just, just to again refer to um Brigham Young talking about Orson Pratt as as the apostle that he’s talking about. He says this is later the next day. Remember what the what the apostle says concerning this matter. It is this His seeds shall be like the sands upon the seashore and like the stars and the firmament for multitude. They cannot be numbered from this time henceforth and forever. They are endless and still continue to increase and increase. So he refers repeatedly to Orson Pratt as the apostle who is giving the word of God, right? So I, I think that this is about as firmly established as doctrine as anything could be, and
[00:51:01] I’m a little nervous reading all of this because these are the things that people find and think, oh my gosh, we need to be polygamists, and they, they go into polygamy because of these teachings that that we have tried to keep hidden and it’s just, I don’t think it served us well. I really just think that the truth is. The best policy always, right? We should just let things be openly understood and acknowledge, yes, things were taught that we no longer agree with, and these are the reasons why, and we could use the scriptures to show how polygamy was an error of man from the beginning. That would solve a lot of problems that the church has continued to face. To this day. So, um, let’s see, I want to go on, oh, there are some interesting things about about this. Um, well, first of all, I want to talk about how these teachings were very much the the understanding of what the LDS Church was, what it was about and what it taught, because, um, this was taught only, as I said, not only by general leaders, but at local leaders, it was, it was the understanding that parents were to teach their children. So my grandparents again. My grandmother was the oldest daughter of post postmanifesto polygamist polygamists married by permission of the church in permission of the president of the church in 1906, 2 years after the second manifesto was given. They lived in Utah. He served as mission president many times. He had general calling, so that’s my story, and my mother and my aunts, I’ve heard them talk often about how they were taught explicitly and adamantly. The quote is, If you limit your family, you limit your exaltation. And so that affected my mother. She had 5 children in 5 or 6 years, and her third child had cerebral cerebral palsy and couldn’t walk until she was 7. So my mom was carrying not only baby and toddler, but a a big child who was unable to walk and my mom, oh this story just breaks my heart. She didn’t have a lawn and she and my dad had saved up money as they struggled financially to try to put a lawn in. So my mom could let those children go out and play, especially my sister Janae, who wasn’t able to walk, and um when the, when the church wanted to build their church building, and it was when they had the building fund and people were kind of told how much they needed to contribute. And so my dad being so honest and faithful, told the bishop all of their financial situation and that they had this money saved to put in the lawn. And that’s how much they were assessed for the building fences. So my mom, after all of those years, all of those babies, all of that saving and their, their lack and their, you know, they really, my mom, um, fed her family. She was that it was a huge blessing that they attributed to tithing that a man at the store at the gro in the produce department. Saw my mom shopping all the time and trying so hard, and he said, come back here and showed her where the old produce was that
[00:54:05] they were going to throw out and let her have it for like pennies a pound, and that’s how she fed her family for years and years. So that’s how they were living while they were scrimping to save money to put in a lawn, and then they donated that to the church and my mom talks, my mom now has scoliosis from carrying. My sister until she was 7, and she had to walk to neighbors’ houses to let the kids play on the lawn for years and years after that as well. So these stories of faith are profound. I, I, that was a sidetrack. The reason I’m telling this is because my mom believed that birth control was evil, and if she, and she was not allowed to limit her family. We talked about this in the episode I did with her, so she had to really take her personal authority and And rely on the spirit for herself cause she just believed that if she continued to have a baby every year, she would die. It would kill her and her children would be left orphaned, right? And so she had to take her personal authority and break away from that teaching to start to use birth control to decide when her children could be born. She went on to have 9 children. She wanted a family. So that’s how she made it OK in her mind. The Lord knows I want children. I just can’t. She couldn’t keep carrying Janay and do another pregnancy, right? And so, so that’s how that that teaching has come down and affected my own family. I always feel the need to clarify, this is not a teaching that I inherited. My mom did not pass this teaching on. I felt personally inspired to have the large family that I have had. That’s been my own decision because that was the right thing for me, that the Lord inspired me. I didn’t feel pressured by anybody to have the children I had. Quite the opposite, right? I’ve gotten pressure in the other direction from many sources. So, um, that’s how, how much I know this teaching to be true, it’s come down in my own family line. And affected my family in very profound ways. So I also want to clarify something that people might argue against because some of Orson Pratt’s writings in later years were disavowed by the church leaders. This is a fascinating story. I talked about how Orson Pratt published many books and articles, especially when he was in England. That was one way that he provided for his needs was by publishing so many things, and this is A fascinating story. This was in August, on August 23, 1865, there was a long article in the Deseret News disavowing some of Orson Pratt’s teachings, right? The first thing it talks about for a long time is, so Lucy Mac Smith wrote a biography of Joseph Smith. I can’t remember what it’s called, the history of the church or the Joseph Smith by his mother. Anyway, it was Lucy Mac Smith, Joseph’s mother. That wrote her history of her biography of her son and the history of the church. Brigham Young did not like that book. When it was first published, I believe that Lucy sent a copy to him. He tried to have every copy of that destroyed. He, he just said, there are lies in this. It’s not true, and he tried to burn up every copy, which is really interesting to see how much Brigham Young disagreed with Joseph Smith’s mother, right? That’s an interesting thing we need to take into consideration as we consider
[00:57:19] all of these topics. And so, um, Orson Pratt, I don’t know if He didn’t know or if he just needed the money or what, but when he was in England, he republished that book. He found a copy, is my understanding, he found a copy of Lucy Mac Smith’s book, and he had it republished, and Brigham Young found it among the saints again because they would publish books in England back then. It was a lot less expensive to publish them there and ship them to Utah from England than to have them published anywhere locally. And so, um, That at least that’s my understanding, feel free to correct me, everyone, you know, but Brigham Young saw a copy of it, and I think I just imagined he was livid because he had tried so hard to destroy it, and here it was published again, and he knew he couldn’t destroy all the copies this time. I’m actually really thankful cause I think this is why we still have access to Lucy Mac Smith’s book, which I think we need access to. I think it matters. So that was the main thing. That this article, that was the main motivation for writing this article, disavowing some of the teachings of Orson Pratt. It was first to say, destroy this book, do not believe this book. It should not have been published again. We’re really upset that it was. So Brigham Young and, and the first presidency all signed the article disavowing that. But then they went on to also disavow some of Orson Pratt’s teachings, and it’s really specific, and I wanted to, because some people Use the fact that, um, some of Orson Pratt’s teachings were disavowed to claim that his teachings about polygamy weren’t valid and were disavowed. That could not be further from the truth. So, um, I’m going to read just a couple of things from that article because the things that they were disavowing of Orson Pratt’s were very specific teachings. Um, Brother Pratt’s preaching and teaching upon the first principles of the gospel are excellent as One thing it says, and then it says, um, whenever Brother Orson Pratt has written upon that which he knows and has confined himself to doctrines which he understands, his arguments are convincing and unanswerable. But when he has indulged in hypotheses and theories, he has launched forth on an endless sea of speculation to which there is no horizon. The last half of the tract entitled The Holy Spirit contains excellent and conclusive. Arguments and is all that could be wished wished so so also with many of his writings, but the seer, the first cause, the article in the millennial Star of October 15th and November 1st, 1850 on the Holy Spirit, and the first half of the tract also on the Holy Spirit contains doctrines which we cannot sanction. So you can hear how specifically it’s those specific things that they are disavowing. And so this shows a couple of things I want to see where I included the things that he was specifically teaching. Well, it’s, it’s basically Orson Pratt was really speculating on how God came into being, how creation first appeared, and, and all of these things, and, and it was very speculative. It’s interesting to read it. Definitely his own investigations and not the official doctrines of the church, right? But nothing they disavowed had anything to do with polygamy. In fact,
[01:00:19] the portions that they say are excellent are the parts which teach about polygamy. So they clearly were not afraid to disavow things that they disagreed with, right? If they had disagreed with what Orson Pratt taught about polygamy, they wouldn’t have been afraid to say so. Clearly we see from this. And so, um, none, they, they go into in this article, they quote extensively from his articles, the, the things they’re disavowing, they spell them out very plainly. And that portion of the article was signed by 2 members of the first presidency. I don’t know why the 3rd wasn’t there. Maybe he was unavailable somehow, and 11 of the 12 apostles, right? So it’s really and so it was signed by all of the apostles other than or disavowing his teachings on how God came into being and these other speculative doctrines. And so, um, let’s see. OK, so this was the part of the that they said contained excellent teachings, right? This is what Orson Pratt wrote about about his tract in the portion that they very much avowed and said was excellent. Um, this is from Orson’s Pratt, I think it’s the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of what he’s going to talk about, he says he’s going to talk about, um, the doctrine of celestial marriage or marriage for all eternity as believed and practiced by the saints in Utah ter territory will be clearly explained. The views of the saints in regard to the ancient patriarchal patriarchal order of matrimony or plurality of wives as developed in a revelation given through Joseph theear will be published. The celestial origin and pre-existence of the spirits of men, their first estate or probation in a previous world, the great benefits derived by descending from heaven, entering fleshly tabernacles, and in keeping the laws of their second estate and their final redemption and exaltation as gods in the future state are all subjects which will more or less occupy the pages of this year. So you can see. That he taught a lot about polygamy, and that was not, that was not only not disavowed, it was used and utilized and loved. Like, Orson Pratt was pretty much the official spokesperson of the church in regard to polygamy. And so here’s some further evidence of that. This is another fascinating story. In 1870, Dr. J. AP Newman, who was the US Senate chaplain, he was one of the most renowned preachers in the nation, and and he held the position of the chaplain for the US Senate, right? He challenged Brigham Young to debate polygamy, to debate biblical polygamy, and um he wanted to have that conversation because it was such a big issue in the US government, right? Brigham Young refused to debate him, but assigned Orson Pratt to debate in his place. And so Orson Pratt was basically the church’s champion, like Goliath was the champion, right? chosen to fight on their behalf. Orson Pratt is who Brigham Young chose to make the case for polygamy. And so that is a fascinating story. The debates were held in Salt Lake in the Tabernacle, the Tabernacle. They received national press. They, it was very well known.
[01:03:28] And, um, as what happens with most debates, both sides claimed victory. I haven’t yet found the actual, um, transcript of those debates. I want to find it because I think it’s a fascinating story that I’d love to cover at some point. I want to see if the arguments they were making them then, how well they stand up to the arguments we’re making now in this debate. About whether God ordained and commanded and, you know, whether polygamy is of God or is an error of man. I think it would be fascinating to read what they were saying then. So, but the point I wanted to make is that Orson Pratt, this is even after that they had disavowed his teachings on the first cause and all of those things. Brigham Young still assigned him to take his place as the official spokesperson to go in this debate. And then again, remember in 1876 when they wanted to print a new um version of the doctrine and Covenants, Orson Pratt is the one that Brigham Young assigned to prepare that new version of the Doctrine and Covenants, and that is the one where Section 101, the original article of marriage, that very adamantly preached monogamy, that that was removed. 132 was added. There were many other changes um. The lectures on faith were removed and several other um um sections were added as well. So that’s an interesting story that we will also do an episode on that on that process in at that future time. So anyway, I’m just going into all of this to say it is not possible to claim that reasons weren’t given or that Orson Pratt’s reasons weren’t valid and that we can disavow them without facing these difficult questions, right, of, of how we make sense of all of this. And so, um, we have to really take these things into consideration when we are talking about prophetic and Fallibility. That’s why I started out this episode saying what I think the solution to all of that is, right? It’s to take the Holy Spirit as our guide and recognize that all mortals are fallible and ideas that can be taught that maybe aren’t of God, and I am glad that the Lord is so patient with us and works to help us course correct over time, which is what I think has happened in regard to polygamy and several other teachings from that time period. So, um, OK, going forward, I hope that this has been interesting to you, but there are many more quotes, so many more quotes in the Journal of Discourses and in other sources explaining why polygamy was commanded and explicitly teaching that it was necessary for exaltation. There are, there are far too many to even like, like over decades to even get into all of them at all. I’ve read so much and I know I haven’t even touched on all of them at all. So I’m just going to give a few little snippets from different quotes just to give you a taste, but please know this is not at all comprehensive. Also, these talks are so meandering, I shouldn’t say that cause I’m doing these podcasts and maybe they feel meandering. I’m trying, but these talks really they weren’t given time. Um, time restrictions, they, I don’t know if they were always talking, speaking from notes or if they were just kind of, you know, going with the flow, but it’s hard to find little quotes that really give you the full impact of the sermons. So you can go to the Journal of Discourses and search different terms like Abraham, seed of Abraham,
[01:06:41] promises of Abraham, um. Um, plural, plurality, plurality of wives, polygamy, celestial marriage. There are so many different terms that you can search to try to find some of these things. It’s really an interesting journey to embark upon. So, OK, this was Brigham Young, July 14th, 1855. Again, I’ll put all the links below. Plurality of wives is not designed to afflict you nor me, but is purposed for the for the for our exaltation in the kingdom of God. He goes on later to say, Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives and continue to do so, I promise you that you will be damned, pretty explicitly saying it is necessary for exaltation. If you deny it, you will be damned. July 6, 1862. Again, Brigham Young, monogamy or restrictions by law to one wife is no part of the economy of heaven among men, goes on to say, We, why do we believe in and practice polygamy? Because the Lord introduced it to his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, and the Lord’s servants have always practiced it again, blatantly false. Have they read the Book of Mormon, um. And is, and the question, and is this religion popular in heaven? It is the only popular religion there. For this is the religion of Abraham and unless we do the works of Abraham, we are not Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise. You can hear how these same ideas show up again and again. This was Brigham Young August 19th, 1866. Now we as Christians desire to be saved in the kingdom of God. We desire to attain to the possessions of all the blessings there are for the most faithful man or people that ever lived upon the face of the earth, even him who is said to be the father of the faithful, Abraham of old. We wish to obtain all that Father Abraham obtained. I wish to say to the elders of Israel and to all the members of this church and kingdom. That it is in the hearts of many of them to wish that this doctrine of polygamy was not taught and practiced by us. It may be hard for many and especially for the ladies, yet it is no harder for them than it is for the gentlemen. I’ve read some of these quotes before you’ll recognize them. It is the word of the Lord, and I wish to say to you and all the world that if you desire with all your hearts to obtain the blessings which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamists, at least in your faith, or you will come short of enjoying the salvation and the glory which Abraham has obtained. This is as true as that God lives. You who wish there were no such thing in existence. The man that has that in his heart, I’m shortening a little just because he goes on and on, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son in celestial glory. The only men who will become gods, even the sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son. But they cannot reign as kings in glory because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refuse to accept them. That was clearly taught by Brigham Young. So again, I’m hoping that we can have some empathy and understanding for people who do continue to believe in polygamy. They have found these quotes and taken them to heart, which, right, if they are taught that. Leaders can’t lead them astray. That makes sense. That’s why I think we need to take a different track, right? We need to go a different direction with these things and and acknowledge that it was a mistake from the beginning.
[01:09:59] That’s our only way through, so. There are so many, I mean, I, I don’t even know who I’ve read these same things by, um, John Taylor, George Kanan, Jedediah Grant, Heber C. Kimball, Orson Hyde, Wilfred Woodruff, Joseph F. Smith, so, so many, many more leaders taught these same ideas. So I’m just going to jump forward to one taught by Joseph F. Smith just as one example. This one’s a little long, but it’s pretty explicit. So this was Joseph F. Smith, July 7th, 1878. And speaking of polygamy, he said, It is a principle that pertains to eternal life in other worlds, to endless lives or eternal increase. Some people have supposed that the doctrine of plural marriage was a sort of superfluity or superfluity, I’m saying that right, I hope, or nonessential to the salvation or exaltation of mankind. In other words, some of the saints have said and believe that a man with one wife sealed to him by the authority of the priesthood for time and eternity eternity will receive an exaltation as great and glorious if. As faithful as he possibly could with more than one, I want here to enter my solemn protest against this idea, for I know it is false. There is no blessing promised except upon conditions, and no blessing can be attained by mankind except by faithful compliance with the conditions or laws upon which the same is promised. The marriage of one woman to a man for time and eternity by the ceiling power according to the law of God is a fulfillment of celestial law of marriage in part. But this is only the beginning of the law, not the whole of it. Therefore, whoever has imagined that he could obtain the fullness of the blessings pertaining to the celestial law by complying with only a portion of its conditions has deceived himself. He cannot do it. I, I, I, I, I’m just, as I’m reading this again, I’m like, how do we make these claims? How do we claim that reasons weren’t given and how do we claim that it was not believed to be necessary for exaltation, that that was not taught? It just. I hope you’re seeing what I’m seeing cause I don’t know how we’re supposed to believe these things, right? I’ll go on a little bit more. If then this principle was of such great importance to the prophet that to the, um, importance that the prophet himself was threatened with destruction, that’s speaking about the story of the angel, which I don’t believe. And the best men in the church will be excluded from the favor of the Almighty if they did not enter into and establish. The practice of it upon the earth, it is useless to tell me that that there is no blessing attached to obedience to the law, or that a man with only one wife can obtain as great a reward, glory, or kingdom as he can with more than one, being equally faithful. Patriarchal marriage involves conditions, responsibilities, and obligations which do not exist in monogamy, and there are blessings attached to the faithful observance of that law if viewed only upon natural principles which must so far. Exceed those of monogamy as the conditions, responsibilities, and power of increase are greater. And that so there I’ve quoted extensively from that talk just to give you
[01:13:01] a clear understanding of what they said. So when we are told today, I, I, I don’t know if people aren’t familiar with these talks, that’s kind of hard to believe when they make an extensive study of it or if they have other reasons. I’d like to understand their reasons for claiming. What they claimed that it was never said to be necessary for exaltation, that reasons weren’t given because to me it’s as plain as day if we do our, if we do this research to find these things, there is, I, I just don’t know how we make these claims. So, and again, I want to say that these teachings were all given in official general conferences over the pulpit, right, where the Gospel topics essays are obscure on the LDS website. So how we can say. That you have to believe them and be in line with them, but you can disagree with all of these other things taught and even claim that they weren’t taught, and that just doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t know how we make that claim. So I, I, I want to put that out there just to say, does everyone see what I see and which direction should we go with this, right? So, um, I might, I might end this here because we’ve been going for quite a while, but I do want to say there were there are many other kind of side reasons and justifications given over time. Um, trying to make a case for polygamy, so I think I’ll save the rest of this for another episode because clear back from the beginning, other justifications were given for polygamy just as we’re doing today, finding justifications in 132, coming up with our own reasons, many of which many of us have been raised on and heard our whole lives. So, um, I think that I’ll save those for another episode and just leave it here focused on the reasons that were given. For polygamy and what we need to believe to be in good standing with the church and the complication of that question so we can all do that our own investigation for ourselves and see what resonates, what rings true, what evidence we can find. So thank you so much. I hope that this was useful to you. I am really excited for next week’s episode, which will be my conversation with Julie Hanks. So I hope that you will stay tuned for that, and I will see you next time.
