48: When Children Go Astray (My cousin Mark Hofmann) | 132 Problems: Revisiting Mormon Polygamy

Please consider supporting this podcast:

Mark Hofmann, Mormonism’s forger and bomber, is perhaps the most infamous member of the church. He also happens to be my cousin. My oldest sister joins me to discuss her experiences growing up with him, and our perspectives on him and his wonderful family. More importantly, she shares her own experiences and revelations about mothering children who go different ways.

Transcript

[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon Polygamy, where we explore the scriptural and theological case for plural marriage. As always, I recommend listening to these episodes starting at the beginning so you can understand where we have come from in the scriptural case that we have already made. My name is Michelle Stone, and this is episode 48, and I am so excited to bring it to you. So I have mentioned in several past episodes my post manifesto grandparents. They were married in 1906, which is kind of a big deal. 1890 was the first manifesto saying that the church was done with polygamy, but that was kind of a just kidding, and then, but 1904 was when the church said we really mean it. But my grandparents were married in 1906, so two years after this. Second manifesto, they were married in Mexico with the full, um, well, my, my grandfather met with the president of the church and was given the full go ahead to get married and to take a second wife. So that’s my heritage. What you might find particularly interesting is that my post post manifesto grandparents are also Mark Hoffman’s post-manifesto grandparents. Yes, here’s the big reveal. My cousin is Kaufman. And so this episode, I hope will be very interesting to you on several fronts. My oldest sister grew up with Mark Kaufman. They’re just about the same age. They went to high school together. They were together quite a bit. So I asked her if she would sit down and talk to me and share a lot of her insights. I’ve talked to some other relatives as well, so I’m really excited to share that with you. But more importantly, is the topic that this is designed to be about, which is Mothers coping with children who go a different path than they had hoped for their lives. I think that’s something that all of us can relate to. Hopefully not to the extent of Mark Hoffman’s mother, who we will to some extent be talking about, but um I really hope you will stick around and listen to the end so you can hear my sister’s beautiful insights that she came on specifically to share. So thank you so much for joining us as we take this deep dive into motherhood. Crazy Mormon history and polygamy. Welcome to our discussion today. I am here with my big sister Diane. So our mom has 9 children. Diane’s #1 and I’m #9. So we grew up, we’re 20 years apart, and I grew up with Diane’s kids. She was a second, a second mother sort of. And so I’m so thankful to have Diane here today. She is coming to join the discussion with me about. Motherhood starting back with Eve all the way up until now, about raising children in this world and how difficult, challenging, and painful that can be. And so Diane has a lot of personal experiences to share and things that she has learned that um that I think are just beautiful that I wanted her to come share with us. And then also I thought it would be a really interesting time. To talk about our cousin, Mark Hoffman, big reveal. Mark Hoffman is our cousin actually, so Mark Hoffman is our mother’s first cousin. So my grandmother Agnes, my mother’s mother is the oldest, and Lou, Mark Hoffman’s mother is the youngest, so it’s exactly the situation with Diane and me. And our mom is Agnes’s oldest, so she’s the oldest granddaughter, and Mark is the middle child of Lou, who’s the youngest child in the family,

[03:55] Diane: crossover families, and it’s where the cousins are the same ages as their aunts and uncles. And so the lines get blurred between those relationships because you were closer. To my kids than you were to your own siblings.

[04:08] Michelle: Yes, yes.

[04:09] Diane: And so Mark and I were the same age.

[04:11] Michelle: Yes, exactly. That’s why it’s such an interesting story. So Diane and I are the same situation as Agnes and Lou. Lou is Mark Hoffman’s mother, and so, so my mom would be like me where or like, like anyway, Lou and Janine were raising their children together, so Diane and Mark grew up together just like I grew up with Diane’s children. So it’s really interesting. So Diane. Grew up with Mark and is going to share some of her experiences and insights and we I I I kind of have wanted to talk about this because last year Netflix did a movie on Mark and I guess we know that a little bit more from the perspective of Mark’s sweet, sweet mother or Aunt Lou, because every time it comes back up. It’s, it affects her again and again and again and, um, you know, understandably, but we, I kind of wanted to share her story as well and talk about, as we are talking about the pain that it can be to be a mother in this world, I don’t know in my life a better example of that than Aunt Lou with being the mother of Mark Hoffman. So we’re, go ahead.

[05:22] Diane: There’s this double-edged sword called free agency. Yeah, yeah, we want it for ourselves. But then when our children are given that same gift, we want to somehow not make it work so much for them. And so, um, that free agency that permeates everything and is the greatest gift that we’ve been given in mortality. It’s the

[05:46] Michelle: purpose of mortality,

[05:48] Diane: and it cuts both ways. Boy does it. It

[05:50] Michelle: really does. And so some of the things that we wanted to talk about are to. Well, first of all, hopefully give um insight and inspiration and hope and tools that can be helpful to other, well, all of us are struggling mothers, right? This world is not a pain-free zone. I, I looked up again because I’ve always thought it was. So ridiculous, or at least as old as as soon as I was old enough to think and know things, I thought it was ridiculous that we consider that when God tells Eve in sorrow, thou shalt shalt bring forth, I will increase thy sorrow in thy conception in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children. To think that that is about, I know I said this in my last interview, but to think that that is about pregnancy and childbirth is so small. It’s about. Bearing children who have a piece of your heart forever in in this world where we have no power over what happens to them. And so I think that that’s what we’re talking about is how, how, why God set it up like that, what we are supposed to gain in the process, how we can navigate it. And what it can mean. And then also, since that Netflix documentary came out and I listened to so many different interviews online and discussions and read a biography of Mark Hoffman, and I just think there is a lot of very false information out there that I think Some specific details that would be really good to clear up because it’s annoying to have things be so wrong I think and then just share some information.

[07:25] Diane: It would be their own spin and try and rewrite history the way that they would like it to be written, and they don’t know any of the facts from the under the

[07:35] Michelle: backstory. Yep. And then it’s really easy to have something show up and then have it be, oh, that’s what it’s about like in A document a biography that was written and it repeated this in the documentary and I’ve heard it repeated everywhere. It makes the claim that the reason Mark lost his faith in the church is because he found out that his grandparents were post manifesto polygamists, and that had been a big family secret. Nonsense from top to bottom, utter hogwash. That is it was, it was his grandmother and my mom grew up like Aunt Aggie, who was the first wife. We, we covered this in the episode I did with Janine Brady, so my A grandmother, my great grandmother, my mother’s grandmother was the second wife, and they were married in 1906, so it is true that it was post-manifesto polygamy. My great grandfather moved to Mexico for the purpose of marrying a second wife so that they could have children. He married the bishop’s daughter. They waited till she was 16, I think, and they were both 40. But I knew this growing up and I’m a generation removed. You knew this growing up, the same age as Mark. It was an openly discussed. We talked about Aunt Aggie. We talked about Grandma Sears. We talked like it was, I was raised on the beautiful stories. It was well known, embraced. There was nothing at all secretive about it, and it had nothing to do with Mark. Deciding to fight the church. No.

[09:07] Diane: And it’s interesting because we think of polygamy as being way, way, way in our past, but I knew my great grandmother and, um, had a personal relationship

[09:18] Michelle: and it was Mark’s grandmother.

[09:21] Diane: And so that’s, that’s not

[09:22] Michelle: very far away, not very far away at all. Yeah, it’s, it’s really, really interesting. So, so that there’s the first thing we can clear up is this. It’s in the documentary called Salamander or the biography called Salamander, and included in the documentary that he made this discovery at 14, which this is what I will say if Mark didn’t know that his grandparents. were polygamists. It was because he was so narcissistic and self-centered that he didn’t pay attention to the lives, the details of the lives of anybody around him. It was not because it was hidden from him, right? And if that discovery, if it was a discovery because it was not hidden like at all, and if it was a discovery that he made, it was not the reason for him. Losing his faith in the church. He was already looking for reasons. He was a very, very troubled and troubling young man, young boy. And so we’re gonna share some of those stories. So what do you think? Should we talk about Mark first, or should we talk about, should we just dive right in and start talking about growing up with Mark? Is that, is that OK?

[10:31] Diane: And, and I want to clear up. I was the same generation of Mark, but it was not like we were.

[10:38] Michelle: You’re the same age, but you weren’t. He’s

[10:40] Diane: a year older than I am. We went, we lived a couple of blocks away. We went to Olympus together.

[10:46] Michelle: The green Letterman jacket was from Olympus High, and I, and I was, I have the Olympus High green Letterman jacket. Mine was actually from sports, Marks. From chess club, but the green Letterman jacket that he was still wearing in his 30s when he went to blow people up was from our high school, right? OK, sorry, go

[11:04] Diane: ahead. And he had an older sister and a younger sister, and Mark was not. Um, the kind of person that you could be a friend with. And so I, the, on the occasions that I was in their home, it was more with the sisters than it was with Mark because he was not somebody that you could really have that kind of relationship with.

[11:24] Michelle: He wasn’t a people person, shall we say. So,

[11:26] Diane: so when you say grow up with, that implies some kind of an intimate relationship, but it was, it was just that I was in their home, that I was the same age, that we went to high school together. You

[11:37] Michelle: were at family reunions, you were at. You had a lot of association or you had at least a reasonable amount of association with him, although no emotional connection because I don’t know that he had that with anybody with anybody. And

[11:50] Diane: so at our family reunions we’d kind of gather in groups of age as opposed to generational groups,

[11:56] Michelle: right, right, just like we were talking about. I always was hanging out with your kids like Diane’s oldest daughter and I grew up practically as best friends, so we would always, we would always hang out because we are the same grade in school, and yeah, and so that’s just how. Works. People with big families understand how this, how Mormondom works or how the lines get blurred. Yeah, so, so a couple of things. I also called my my cousin who lives in my state just a few streets down, who is, OK, here’s the family history, right? Agnes is the oldest daughter. Lou is the youngest daughter of Othelia, who was the 16-year-old’s second wife. So that’s the family. Lou is Mark Hoffman’s mom, and Agnes is our grandmother. The 2nd to youngest, so Lou’s the youngest, Bill is the 2nd to youngest, and his daughter is my friend who I called to ask her, and she grew up, she actually did have a lot of association because they were first cousins grew up together, so I called and she like was their present for some of the experiences Diane’s going to talk about and she told me a few more. I guess part of the reason I want to talk about this, I did hear some commentators talking about how they wanted to create this picture of Mark as sort of this like he was so hurt by his discoveries and his realizing that the church, you know, kind of the post Mormon idea like the church had betrayed him and his sense of betrayal was so great that he wanted to fight the church so that he could prevent others from. Going through, so sort of this misplaced humanitarianism that I like it’s, it’s offensive to hear that. It actually made my other cousin angry when I told her that, cause, cause just like you were saying, people want to make its that are completely false and sort of blaming the church for what Mark did, which sure we, I think we can all acknowledge Diane is a very, again, just like my friend Kara who came, I don’t think Diane has watched any of my episodes and I think we completely disagree on these tops. So

[13:56] Diane: on some things, but, and I’m staunch LDS and, you know, active, but there are a lot of common ground as there’s a lot of common ground,

[14:06] Michelle: more common ground than different, but Diane’s not like, she’s not on board with me on the purpose of this podcast. So I don’t know if you’ve even watched the episode either, just like my best friend Kara. So, so it’s great fun, right? But I’m really thankful that she was willing to come on. But I do want to say that. Both of us can acknowledge there are a lot of problems that have been there in the church. That doesn’t mean that I, I, I, I, it is so offensive to try to in any way make Mark Hoffman a good guy or a guy or

[14:33] Diane: a right that did what he did out of love of,

[14:40] Michelle: yes, no, or even a sense of betrayal, like, like, like, no, that like we can’t go there, so. I wanted to share just so there are a couple of experiences from Mark’s childhood because you were children together that I think are somewhat revelatory about his character that, you know, aren’t included in any of the sources that I’ve read. So I think they’re important things to bring to the discussion. So will you share The experience which our cousin also, this has been verified by many sources, but can you share the experience at the family reunion that you remember? First,

[15:17] Diane: the first thing I want to do is share another experience that we had um when I was maybe 11 or 12, I can’t remember the dates exactly. But Mark was making a bomb in his basement and blew himself up. Yeah,

[15:33] Michelle: no, that was in high school. He was in high school, wasn’t he?

[15:35] Diane: I don’t think I was younger. I think it was more junior high.

[15:39] Michelle: I know Uncle Willie gave him a chemistry site.

[15:41] Diane: And I, I don’t know the age, but I know that it was the first time because he had burns. It was the first time that we had been asked because of Family to fast for someone that I actively knew.

[15:55] Michelle: OK, so there was a family fast done because of Mark’s explosion with the chemistry set.

[15:59] Diane: Yes, in his basement. And so nobody, nobody brought that up, but I think that’s interesting that as a, either a teen, well, he was obviously a teen, but a young teen, he was already experimenting in some of those kinds of, of.

[16:15] Michelle: He was working on explosives.

[16:17] Diane: I guess you could say that, yes.

[16:20] Michelle: Yeah, and, and it was about that age too, probably that he did his first false coin, right? And so, so he was already along these lines, but this was an experience that was earlier than that, right?

[16:31] Diane: Um, and again, I’m fuzzy on the time because it wasn’t something where I could pin it to any other. Any other world event, so you guys remember the ages. We had, um, and again, the big extended family would go up once a year to Bear Lake Bear Lake.

[16:48] Michelle: OK, that’s where the family reunions were, and I, I, I’m sorry, I don’t mean to interrupt. I’m 20 years younger than Diane, so I was 4 when in 3 or 4 in 1980 when Mark had his big first discovery, the Ampon transcript, and then I was like, I grew up, so I’m interrupting you and I apologize. I just want to explain why you’re here talking about this because I was just a little girl. And our third sister, I want to, I want to share this story. So it goes Diane, then my brother, and then our handicapped sister who was born with cerebral palsy. And so my growing up, she’s hilarious and you have to know we all we all just kind of do impressions of Janay because she’s part of our family and we love it and the grandkids grow up learning to do so it’s not in any way mean, but I grew up,

[17:35] Diane: I wanna, I wanna tell, OK, OK, and then we’ll come

[17:37] Michelle: back.

[17:38] Diane: Um, our brother was driving her around the point of the mountain, uh, to take her

[17:44] Michelle: from county to Utah County.

[17:46] Diane: She lived in a group home. And as we drove around the point of the mountain, she looked out at the prison prison and she said, Hi, Mark. Which is, you know, it was just everybody knew that’s what he was.

[18:04] Michelle: We’ve all, that’s been one of our classic stories, and she said it my memory is that she would say it every time that every time she’d say hi Mark. So I grew up, that’s how I really knew about the story is that Janay always said hi to Mark, who I, who was my cousin who blew people up. Like that’s that’s kind of my understanding of the story, so. So I don’t have the firsthand at all because I was so little, but, but Diane really does. So, OK, so go

[18:34] Diane: ahead. So we were at Bear Lake and Mark’s dad, my uncle Willie, had a boat and he spent hours and hours taking us out and teaching us how to water ski.

[18:45] Michelle: And you have to talk a little about Uncle Willie because you,

[18:48] Diane: he was a darling. He was just the sweetest man.

[18:51] Michelle: Uncle Willie is Mark’s dad,

[18:53] Diane: and um. He was just this little short guy and, and just cute. Um

[18:59] Michelle: you said really patient when he would teach you

[19:01] Diane: my gosh, so patient. And Mark was this phenomenal water skier. Mark could do all kinds of tricks and do everything, yeah,

[19:09] Michelle: because that boat, yeah,

[19:11] Diane: they grew up with the boat, but when we went to Bear Lake. Uncle Willie would make sure that all of us who didn’t have any access, he would take us out just 2 or 3 at a time and teach us how to ski. And so over the years as we went, I got to the point where I could slalom and jump the wake and do all of those fun things, but it was because I’d gone with him.

[19:35] Michelle: That’s Uncle Willie and they only had 3 kids. It’s Mark’s older sister than Mark than his younger sister. And so for Uncle Will. To take these big families because I know we have an aunt with 12 kids. Our mom has 9 kids like they were big families. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So so that that was a labor. So that tells a little bit about um how about Uncle Willie day

[19:59] Diane: and every once in a while somebody would bring him out some lunch or a drink or something, but, but cute sweet man. Anyway, that’s not part of this story. The story is that Mark had always the latest and greatest as far as technology, the first transistor radio, the first of all of those kinds of electronics. He loved that type of thing. And so he brought a metal detector up to Bear Lake. And as he walked along the shore, he was finding, it was beeping, yeah, it would beep and then and then there were a bunch of kids that would follow with with little spoons and pails, and they would dig up whatever it was. All the

[20:45] Michelle: younger cousins all the

[20:46] Diane: younger cousins, and there were probably 10 or 15 of them at, at different times that would come out and follow him as he found all these treasures. He’d find coins, he’d find, you know, little things and trinkets. And so, um, and we were there for a total of 3 days. Um, generally, we came up on Friday and then went home Sunday night, but he found, um, Uh, something that just set this metal detector off big time.

[21:18] Michelle: So he would walk past the spot and it would go crazy. Yeah.

[21:21] Diane: And so he, he told these kids, I don’t know what this is, but it’s, it’s big. And so they started. To dig, and he encouraged them to, to keep digging because every time he would put this metal detector down in the hole, it would just go absolutely crazy. So he would keep,

[21:38] Michelle: he would keep coming back and it would beep and they would dig and dig and dig.

[21:42] Diane: And so these little kids were, um, Spent hours in

[21:48] Michelle: the hot spots when they could have gone on the boat or been

[21:51] Diane: out in the in the lake digging as he came by and they got this hole, um, and their poor little fingers, you know, when you dig in sand and just they were

[22:01] Michelle: really excited and sacrificing themselves

[22:04] Diane: to, to dig this, this big hole, and they spent their whole day digging and I remember coming over and saying, you guys, let’s go down and swim, and they go, no, this is Because

[22:15] Michelle: it was your younger siblings as well.

[22:18] Diane: This is important. This is a

[22:20] Michelle: big thing I’m sure Janae was out there

[22:22] Diane: wasn’t OK, she didn’t, she couldn’t, she couldn’t,

[22:27] Michelle: yeah,

[22:28] Diane: OK, but the, the little ones were, were there and finally. Mark stuck that down and nothing happened and the kids all. Looked and then he just started laughing. At everybody because he had rigged it so that he could make it beep and he he he

[22:50] Michelle: could do a manual,

[22:52] Diane: he could do a manual beep, and he had done that so that he could manipulate those kids and

[22:57] Michelle: then he and then he laughed in their faces and called them fools. Well,

[23:02] Diane: he didn’t, I don’t remember that he called them fools, but he just laughed at them and you know,

[23:06] Michelle: I I’ve been told by people that he’s like you guys are so stupid,

[23:10] Diane: you’re

[23:10] Michelle: so

[23:11] Diane: stupid yeah you guys are idiots. And walked away and these poor little kids just absolutely devastated after digging all day and it made me really, really angry that he would do that to all of those little kids.

[23:25] Michelle: I think so, so I think. I think everybody in our family remembers that because it was such a jarring experience. Like, you don’t usually come into contact with that kind of cruelty to like do that big of a deception and then laugh in your face about it with, you know, and so it, it really impacted it. Like, everyone remembers that. That’s a bit of an infamous Suzanne does uh-huh, yeah, and so it’s, so it’s some, well, and I’ve talked to multiple sources who all very much remember that story and I think that’s important to recognize the level of, well, the dark triad is something that some psychologists talk about, which is the combination if you get. Um, narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism, and Machiavellianism isn’t a personality disorder in the DSM-5, but it just means, right, I’ll do whatever I need to for the ends I want. I can manipulate anyone, I can do that. And then the narcissism is that, that incredible elevated sense of ego and, you know, and then combined with the the psychopathy, which is no conscience, and that is, uh, like it seems to me that Mark Hoffman manifests the dark triad. Very clearly and very early on.

[24:47] Diane: And that’s not something that came as a result of the way he was raised. Other people have have said all kinds of theories about his home environment. I was in his home. He had loving parents that doted on him as the only boy. And um

[25:08] Michelle: that’s oh well go ahead and then I’ll share.

[25:10] Diane: No, he was just love. They doted on their girls too.

[25:13] Michelle: They had the and I’ve heard things about like Uncle Willie was really strict. That was included too. You shared your experience of Uncle Willie. He was not demanding. He was a loving man and to in any way claim that someone that’s brought up in in with some level of expectation or anything like that to. To try to attribute anything of his parentage because frankly, there are awful parents who have really great kids and

[25:40] Diane: right great parents

[25:42] Michelle: who have Mark Hoffman or Kane, Adam and Eve, right?

[25:47] Diane: Or well, I think one of the biggest lies that is told is that you’re never As happy or you can’t, what, how does it?

[25:57] Michelle: You’re always as miserable. You can, you can never be happier

[26:00] Diane: than your saddest child. And I think that’s a, that is so false because if that was the truth, God would be the most miserable of any person ever because he’s had

[26:13] Michelle: these being of any being,

[26:15] Diane: because he’s had these children who’ve made these horrible choices, but he is love and he is joy. And so anybody who tells themselves I’m gonna martyr myself and be sad because my children are sad, what they are doing is totally denying our purpose, which is to have joy, to be joyful, to be hopeful, to be loving, to be grateful. And you can’t do that if you tie your emotional health in with your children’s dysfunctionality. Yeah,

[26:50] Michelle: oh, that’s so true, so well said. I’m not thinking of the term, but I’m gonna think of of the Not the not the trauma bonding, but the um like an unhealthy connection where I have to be as miserable as my child to show how much I love them and to be that like that is not what we’re here for. I love, I love how you said that. Yeah, so, so true. And as we go on and talk about some of the things about Aunt Lou, I think that hopefully that will like. The life that Aunt Lu has lived, I think, is a model for all of us to strive for. And so anyway, so I want to just also I guess I also take issue with trying to blame Mormonism or being blamed, being raised in Mormonism to try to in any way blame Mark’s actions on that because I think it’s completely, completely unfair and untrue and. And then also another thing they kind of said in the movie and alluded to is that he was forced to go on a mission and that and that in that day and age you were pressured and I have to say, like, how many people do we know throughout all of those years who left the church? There, I mean, yes, there have always been parental expectations, but there’s also, there’s also always been the ability to not live up to them, and I don’t like, like I think that it’s just so awful. Of course, of course we always want to judge parents when we see something happen, but I think we should really be careful to not do that. I know that. My mom shared with me one day and we’re gonna share your experiences too, but she had a daughter that she was really worried about at the time who had rejected the way she was raised and who, you know, wasn’t making choices my mom felt good about and And my mom was driving and just started to kind of cry and was remembering every mistake that she had made and just crying and all of a sudden the Lord just brought to mind every mistake she had made with every other child as well, and to help her to learn to not judge herself. I don’t know how it benefits us to see our children as our report card or to try to attribute children’s behavior to their parents. I mean, of course there’s influence there, but It’s just not what we’re here for.

[28:58] Diane: That’s right. That’s right. And you had mentioned that kids are sent here for our learning and good, but they’re they’re actually sent here for their own learning and

[29:10] Michelle: we just have ours,

[29:12] Diane: right, right, we can learn from each other, but we’re simply the vehicle to get them here so they can have their own life experience. And make their own choices.

[29:21] Michelle: And share what you say about if we were perfect parents.

[29:25] Diane: Oh, OK. If, even if we did every single thing exactly perfect, then our kids would grow up and be upset with us because we never taught them how to deal with making mistakes.

[29:41] Michelle: We didn’t teach them reality.

[29:43] Diane: It was, it was right. You can never do it right, you know, there’s only a whole bunch of ways. Right, because,

[29:50] Michelle: because I guess what we’re talking about is doing it right is making it so that there’s no need or opportunity for growth. And this life is about growth.

[29:58] Diane: So when my kids were little, I would make decisions and choices that, um, were hard for them, and so I’d give them a quarter for their counseling jar. And I would, and then it got to the point where they’d say, Mom, is this a quarter experience? You might say, Yep, it sure is. There you go.

[30:20] Michelle: So

[30:20] Diane: funny.

[30:21] Michelle: I guess that’s good just lower the expectations. You’re gonna need counseling. That’s how it goes because we live in this mortal world. Right. That’s so fun. So yeah, I really do think that it’s unfair for, it’s a good lesson for all of us to not view our children as, as our report card, as the sum total of our worth as as parents, which translates to our worth as people, right? Like, ideally we learn all that we can, do the best that we can. We do want to be the best parents that we can be, which means continually learning and growing and repenting and apologizing and striving and Loving but not blaming ourselves, yeah,

[31:01] Diane: any more than we can. Stand up and take credit for every good thing our kids do.

[31:07] Michelle: And maybe, maybe we want to take credit

[31:10] Diane: a

[31:10] Michelle: little bit, but, you know, maybe that, maybe we can, maybe we can say, OK, I feel good that I gave them that opportunity, but we certainly can’t say I, their, their success is because of me because that’s not true at all, because some kids squander opportunities and some You know, yeah, but I think it is OK to feel joy for the successes because we also feel sorrow for the trials, but that doesn’t mean we have to take it on ourselves. Yeah, I like that, so. OK. So anyway, so I guess talking about, oh, I wanted to share another story. So my other cousin that I called and I, I’m sure there would be many other stories, but she did, when I asked her if she had memories of Mark growing up, she talked about the beach. She was, she’s Janae’s age, so she’s a few years younger than you, so she was digging and she talks about how that affected them. There was another time when they were in their home and um the kids were all there, so the parents were gone and they were playing the game of life. They’re playing life. And there was some, she said that she was the littlest there. She was probably only 9 or 10 and Mark was probably 14 or something, and they were playing and he was winning and was super competitive and um she was losing cause she was the littlest, but there was some like magical square you could land on where all of a sudden you just win. There was there was something that could happen where you just like like it’s like, oh, that’s life, the game’s over and you went and she was losing. And this thing happened to her where she just was like, oh, I won, and you know she was the littlest one there and her older brother was Mark’s age who was like, way to go, you know, but so that’s kind of what she expected, but she said all so she has a brother and then there were there so the 5 of them were in playing the 3 Hoffman kids and then the 2 of them and and that happened and she was, she just had long enough to go, I won, and Mark. Picked up the board and flipped it and everything went everywhere and she said that she never can, she can’t remember any other time in her life seeing that degree of rage, like out of control, hateful rage that it has always stuck with her, cause it It, it’s scary in the way of like, you don’t know that that that people are like that. And it was so different from anything she’d ever experienced. And

[33:27] Diane: so when the facade and, yeah,

[33:30] Michelle: so, so, so that was a moment that she saw. So I think that there is enough history to know that Mark did not have like this idea, the ridiculous idea that he somehow just cared about people and didn’t want the church to hurt anybody else is. Of course that

[33:48] Diane: he had a deep and abiding testimony

[33:53] Michelle: and then and then it was betrayed, yes, and in

[33:57] Diane: fact, on his mission, he spent his mission visiting bookstores in, I think it was England,

[34:05] Michelle: he was in Manchester

[34:06] Diane: and, and he would go in the bookstores and he would look for old books that had empty pages in the front and back. That he had old paper because he

[34:18] Michelle: was. He was already plotting, plotting

[34:22] Diane: the forgeries and he needed to find the paper, and here was a source that he could buy those books while he was on his mission. That’s really an interesting loss of testimony. I don’t think so,

[34:36] Michelle: right, right, and he already had, he didn’t send in that false coin because he had been betrayed by the church. He didn’t fool. All of those kids because of and and turning over, he was a malicious, completely self-centered narcissistic psychopath from the beginning who found opportunities to use that and and we’ll talk about that more going forward, but you’re right, like that’s another thing they leave out of the documentaries. They make it sound like he just was so interested in church history. That he was looking at those bookstores and buying books and yes, but why was he so interested in church history and why was he acquiring those books with the blank pages that early on exactly because so, so anyway, it’s it’s really interesting to try to use his story to be hard on the church. I just find that to be and actually. He became an atheist according to I see this is according to the sources, cause I, I don’t know. I’m sure you never had spiritual discussions with him. But um, but the idea also like like really he was a complete nihilist like he talks about they are in his interview, he talked about the people that he killed and he’s like, why does everyone care so much? They’re not suffering, they’re not in pain. If anything, I put them out of their misery, right? And so So we should look at this more of a cautionary tale of atheistic nihilism than of Mormonism, right? It’s really weird how backward this it’s like anything that can be used to criticize faith and like there’s enough genuine fair criticism of the church. Let’s not try to use these things to criticize the church in unfair ways because I would say. Willie and Lou are a better representation of like those good good people than than Mark. So those are some stories from his growing up that I think clarify now. You also tell about, so in 1980 he found, he discovered the Anon transcript, right? And a couple of other things because you also, so I’m trying to decide which way to go first. Why don’t we first go to the meeting because he started doing firesides and there was a family fireside. There was

[36:43] Diane: a fire. It was in the ward that we grew up in. OK. right across the street from where they lived and um in the reliefci room there and I remember,

[36:54] Michelle: so you would have been a young mom, you would have had a 5 year old as your oldest or a 6 year old or some 4 or 56, 1980, 1981 would have been

[37:02] Diane: 1980 Becca would have been 3 or 2.

[37:06] Michelle: Depending on if it was 1980 or in like

[37:09] Diane: yeah and so um the family came and I

[37:12] Michelle: remember and all of the extended family,

[37:14] Diane: right? Yeah, the extended family and I just remember the, the pride. On um Just that absolutely amazed. Pride that Uncle Lou and Aunt Willie had and the aunts sitting there just this, this is our boy that has done this and just and and him.

[37:41] Michelle: They were just busting their buttons with

[37:43] Diane: him with this slide projector talking about where it was discovered and what happened and what it means and going through all of these slides absolutely with no. Hint of the fact that it was all made up and was all for show and it is amazing to me that he could have with the people that loved and cared for him the most he could have been so calloused. And calculated in his. Pandering for their admiration by this dishonesty and um you know, it’s one thing to pull a con on strangers.

[38:30] Michelle: You can blame it. Well, the insurance companies are corrupt. The bankers know

[38:33] Diane: they’re gonna pay me for this, but it’s a totally different level where for no other reason than just Sheer spite and, and a hatred of all that’s good to

[38:48] Michelle: do that to your loved ones,

[38:50] Diane: the people that,

[38:51] Michelle: and I was, I was thinking about that and I just, I think of myself as a mom, and I know I’m certain that Aunt Lou absolutely was worried to death about Mark raising a kid like that. And, and so this is my projection onto them, you know, but as I think about that pride that they had in them to go from, you know, you have those kids that you’re like, what’s gonna happen here? Is it gonna turn out good? You know? And I mean, I relate to that. I’ve raised a couple of those. And, um, and when you, to go from that kind of concern over this hard, difficult child that I’m sure I can’t even imagine the number of hours that they prayed for him and about him, right? And then then he grows up and look at what like like all all of that potential that was so scary to us was turned to good and you know, and I to like have it go like I, I’m guessing that’s part of that pride is like it turned out OK, he’s good and and that just broke my heart that much more. And I also found myself wondering if as a mom, if somewhere deep down Lou had Doubts that she was having to shush, and I don’t think Uncle Willie maybe, but maybe Aunt

[40:10] Diane: Loo. Well, that was, that was the whole thing, um, and again this is from me looking in. But when I remember exactly where I was, I lived in Oham at the time and I was driving down

[40:24] Michelle: Center when you heard about the bombing,

[40:26] Diane: when I heard about the bombing that um. Mark had been involved in.

[40:31] Michelle: So you heard about Mark, Mark getting bombed. It was the 3rd bombing. OK, so

[40:35] Diane: this

[40:35] Michelle: was in 85

[40:36] Diane: the other ones we knew about,

[40:37] Michelle: right, but this Mark got blown up. Yes,

[40:40] Diane: and that there were papers and there were questions and There was such. Certain knowledge at that moment I knew that he had.

[40:54] Michelle: Done this and that’s exactly what my other cousin said. As soon as he got blown up, it was like, oh my gosh, it’s him, it’s him because immediately all of those experiences, the chemistry set, him knowing about explosives, his everything, it was like, holy cow, you, you guys just knew

[41:12] Diane: knew and and sometimes there are those seminal moments that you remember and I remember exactly where I was writing on the street, driving down that street, thinking. Oh, OK. This is, this is what we’re dealing with now, and I think that The thing that that killed Uncle Willie was that he. Believed Mark well he.

[41:42] Michelle: He sat down face to face when Mark was under investigation and said, Son, did you do this? And Dad, I didn’t do this. Look just like you said that, looked straight in the eyes of this caring father who then said, OK, and believed him and went, went to put his whole neck on the line to say he’s innocent. He based on, he did everything to defend his son. And then this is what I was told that when it came out and he had admitted it and Uncle Willie sat down and get him again, and again it was that you idiot. He, he was like laughed at him for being such a, and he died right after that. Well, he, he became sick. He, he, it broke him, it

[42:30] Diane: broke him. And uh the last time I saw my uncle Willie alive, he was, um, Sitting in the front car of a van that took older people to. Um, a workshop, and he, he didn’t recognize anybody or anything. It, it broke him. And I think, and again, this is my own opinion, but I think probably Aunt Lou thought that maybe he was guilty.

[42:57] Michelle: That’s what, just as a mom, I wonder if she had some little,

[43:01] Diane: but I’m, I’m again, that’s my own thought. But, um, it’s so painful, so.

[43:11] Michelle: Because he believed his son and I really liked my other cousin that I was talking to and she said that one of the insights that I was that her parents had, you know, our other cousin, and she said that what what they at least said or how they thought about it was that. Mark was sent to them to give him the very best chance to let him be loved and because I’m sure there are no perfect parents, but it’s hard to think of a better family who, you know, like think of ourselves as parents, would we, are we so certain we could raise someone. What could have raised Mark Hoffman to not turn into what he turned into, you know. So she just felt like they agreed that they would love him and and give him the very best opportunity. And anyway, it’s really interesting to, because you go, why?

[44:02] Diane: Anybody that tries to lay the blame of somebody’s choices at the feet of their parents. Better watch out because you don’t know what your own kids are going to do,

[44:12] Michelle: yeah, yeah. And of course that isn’t to say that there aren’t very awful, abusive, horrible parents that mess up their kids

[44:20] Diane: and, and you from, from the distance of time, you can think, oh shoot, I should have never done that, or in my case, I would give anything to go back and give one of my daughter’s dance lessons. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That may have made a difference, but at the time,

[44:41] Michelle: you’re just living the best you can.

[44:42] Diane: You’re doing what you can do and trying your hardest, trying the best that you can, and then your kids hopefully will forgive you at some point.

[44:54] Michelle: If you give them enough quarters,

[44:56] Diane: enough quarters, yep, yep,

[44:58] Michelle: yeah. Yeah, so the other thing I wanted to talk about, um, I’m drawing a blank for a second. I think, oh, that you also were good friends. Well, you, so Bright Music was my parents’ company, right? And, and you sold Bright Music and Dory was one of your one of my gals and so you worked quite closely with her and and so you We’re in Dori and Mark’s home on a and so do you have any insight, because I think it’s just interesting to know how closely was like, like when you say I knew it was him, it wasn’t just from a distance. You were like interacting with them.

[45:33] Diane: The one that I know and Dory is a sweetheart, just a sweetheart, and um,

[45:39] Michelle: But you said she was quite simple. She was content to not ask questions, to not, like, like she wasn’t an investigative personality or mind. I,

[45:48] Diane: um, was doing a, a bright party at her home. And so I was trying to do a display, and they had a dining room table and there were some papers on it. And I said, Well, let me just move these, and I bend down and she said, Oh, don’t touch anything there. And I said, Well, can I just move them so I can put this display up? And she said, that’s Marks. And he said, I’m never to touch anything. And so we have to find somewhere else to go. And so her, it didn’t matter what was on that table, she had been told not to touch it and so she wouldn’t move anything, even a fracture.

[46:24] Michelle: And who knows how much fear had been instilled in her too I don’t know,

[46:28] Diane: I don’t know, or if she was just obedient and and

[46:32] Michelle: and so that’s why it worked. Mhm.

[46:34] Diane: So I don’t, I again, I’m not gonna attribute anything to her, but I know that but

[46:39] Michelle: you saw that dynamic firsthand of her just, she was

[46:42] Diane: a, a good mom and a loving wife who was trying to do her very best with her four little kids,

[46:49] Michelle: so. OK, so, so we’ve talked about quite a bit of it and now I want to kind of transition on those are the experiences with Mark, you know, and anyone who doesn’t know the story of Mark Hoffman, you can, it’s everywhere, yeah, he, he was, he, I so, so we talked a little bit about him wearing his Letterman jacket to drop off the bomb to Steve Christensen and yeah, and um who’s the son of Mr. Mac. Mac, that’s an interesting connection that, you know, I’m just sad. Life is hard. Life is hard, you know, he apparently from everything I’ve heard was just an amazingly good, good guy. And then Kathy Sheets, who was just killed for no reason at all other than to

[47:32] Diane: matter who it was that opened that he didn’t care.

[47:35] Michelle: Nope, didn’t care at all

[47:36] Diane: open the mailbox, just whoever it was,

[47:39] Michelle: just someone to take the to to to make it confusing. And um and so it’s really a tragedy what he did, but he wore his Letterman jacket, which he, which everyone knew was his, and right, and so it’s interesting that he’s so brazenly or stupidly, or however we want, because he wasn’t stupid at all. He was brilliant. And so we’ve talked about how interesting it was that he Wore his letterman jacket, which, which was the thing that ended up being the clue that kind of broke the case.

[48:16] Diane: One of the clues,

[48:17] Michelle: yeah,

[48:18] Diane: but I’ve also often wondered. If he felt like there was some kind of. Not divine protection, but divine protection,

[48:32] Michelle: like he was untouchable with some satanic covenant or something, is that, yeah,

[48:38] Diane: but I, I think that anybody that he either wanted to get caught. Yeah,

[48:43] Michelle: that’s what I so

[48:44] Diane: that people would because it doesn’t

[48:47] Michelle: I think he was so arrogant that it was killing him. To not have it be known how brilliant he, how, how he was the very best that there ever was,

[49:01] Diane: and you as a forger, if you look at the pattern. His goal was to laugh at people and to make fools of people and so at some point you have to do the big reveal,

[49:14] Michelle: right, like, like just with the, with the metal detector, he didn’t, he wasn’t content to leave and have fooled them. He had to have it be known that he was so much, he was superior to all of them.

[49:26] Diane: So I don’t

[49:27] Michelle: I

[49:27] Diane: don’t know that it was a combination of things,

[49:31] Michelle: but. Yeah, it was like some con like somewhere he could not stand to not get credit. And, and it worked. I mean, he’s way, way better known now as the greatest counterfeiter, counterfeiter of all time, who murdered people. He’s better known now than he would have been just by some obscure finder of documents who would have only been known in those very limited circles of Mormon historians. So. Ah, troubling. So yeah, so yeah, everyone can decide for themselves, but it is, it’s an interesting investigation. So a couple of things. So what I really wanted to focus on, I think it is important to get the information out there and to share. And, um, but I kind of want to talk about, well, Uncle Willie, we have talked about him and how, I mean to me it’s just heartbreaking and tragic and, you know, and for any, I, I, I get really a little bit prickly for any criticism of him, like, well, he was stricter and it’s like, No father deserves that and he was a good father. So like, like, like, uh, you know, and I, I just, that’s so wrong and and what happened to him is just tragic, but Aunt Lou, I think that um everybody who knows Aunt Lou talks about what an angel she is, that she is just. A beautiful human and um a couple of things I want to share about her because that’s the hard thing is she like they had to go on living their lives, his sisters, his mother, you know, they, they went on. Yeah, yeah, I know that she divorced him eventually and um but. A couple of things. Aunt Lu, this, this actually makes me really happy. She was called as I uh I might get it wrong because um my cousin wasn’t sure that was telling me, but she was called as I believe the state relief Society president. And um and I don’t, I don’t know that it was immediately after, but I love that they allowed her to continue to be her instead of just viewing her. As her biggest tragedy, right, as the mother of Mark Hoffman, and she served and when she was released, they made a beautiful display from all of the sisters that’s that’s all signed. I don’t know if it’s a quilt or something, but that hung in her home for years and years. And so I love how, like, like these are the parts. of Mormonism that I just think are beautiful, that her community really rallied around her and loved her and saw the good in her instead of because you would, I cannot imagine as a mom going through that, you know. And another thing is that You probably know this, my, I’ve heard this from multiple sources as well. I mean, I mean, I guess it just was so touching to people that it became something that was talked about that Aunt Lou every single week. Went to the prison and visited Mark. She lived in Utah until I believe she was 89 or 90, and then moved to be closer to one of her daughters who could take care of her. But um she’s still living. She’s still alive and and that’s one reason that where my mom is hesitant to talk about my cousin. Like nobody wants to bring it up to do anything that would cause more pain to Aunt Lou. And that was my one hesitation about sharing this, but my hope is that it can be something that Um, can bring more awareness to people about this, um, just about the love of a mother because she, she continuing to visit him every week. What better thing could a mother do? I just, she also didn’t discard him, write him off, see him only as the worst thing he did, which was bad. Like he’s a bad, bad guy, you know, but she I, I guess just that continuing to love, continuing to reach out in love, it is profound to me and the only reason she doesn’t still visit him is because she had to move out of state. And, but I’m sure that there is still contact there. So I think for all of us as mothers, it’d be hard to be dished. dealt a harder hand than Aunt Lou had and what she did with it and just went on to be a beautiful, loving, wonderful person. And my cousin who I talked to, she’s our she’s that aunt in our family who does the family history. She just made family history books and she called Aunt Lou when they were done and kind of wanted her to tell them she did them as a tribute cause her parents have passed away, so Aunt Lou has kind of served as her, you know, adopted mother. And um she said that Aunt Lou wanted them for all of her grandchildren, and she, she said, oh, I want to get them for Marks and then cut herself short and just said, I want to order this many so she still um wants those her grandchildren to know their good family heritage, to know the beautiful things and the beautiful stories, like, I guess just the ripples of this through the decades and the generations, but this mother still. Continuing on in her goodness and her love is. is an amazing thing to me. So I think anytime we have any interest in Mark, we hopefully should, you know, give a little prayer for his mom and like, like think about her as well, cause that’s a lot of heartbreak. So anyway, anything you wanna add? no. So I want to transition and I, and this is tricky because So Diane, also a dedicated, beautiful mom, and I think lived the gospel in a way that I have always admired. I’ve always thought of Diane as one of the warmest and most charitable people.

[55:24] Diane: Do you know how I put it? I was a steak a state conference Mormon. Which means that I took the kids to stay confident. As opposed to a day off Mormon, you know, that would say, oh, cool, we’ve got a vacation.

[55:43] Michelle: OK, that’s a measure. I’ve, I’ve never thought of it that way, but I’m a state conference Mormon. I’ve always been one too, yeah,

[55:50] Diane: and then I have always told people that I want to be a Mormon zucchini. Yes, which is low maintenance, high yield. I love it.

[56:00] Michelle: And um, also, I, well, you go ahead and then I’ll share as

[56:04] Diane: opposed to a Mormon orchid. Yes, we were just talking about my orchid that has to have lots and lots and lots of tender care for not very much. I love it.

[56:16] Michelle: Yeah, I’ve always, I’ve always known that low maintenance, high yield, that’s what we strive to be. And I think one thing that I’ve always appreciated about Diane is it’s always been about the love, not about the rules, not that you weren’t that, you know, but not that, but, but you weren’t Pharisee, you were never Phariseeical in my perspective. You always were all about the love and I remember one time when I was a girl and we were out at the park for fireworks and I saw A strange looking fellow walking across and I said to Diane, oh my gosh, look, and, and she just, she said, and do you know what, our heavenly Father just adores him and that’s kind of who Diane is and has always been and I always loved that that when I was going to mock someone from afar thinking it was harmless. She returned, she didn’t correct me and didn’t rebuke me, but filled me with a loving perspective, and that’s always been something I’ve admired

[57:10] Diane: profoundly. I did that. See,

[57:14] Michelle: she did, because I remembered it and it and it gave me a different perspective from then on that I’ve tried to employ. So she’s been a really good mentor to me. And so Diane has 6 children, 5 of whom Are atheists,

[57:30] Diane: well.

[57:33] Michelle: Not that that’s the worst word on the, on the, I guess I wasn’t saying that to be accusing or but just to say how, how far it’s gone because it’s one thing to leave the, it’s, you know, there are different steps, but to go to the point where you’re like. Like there’s no God and like I guess they disagree with you now on just about everything, philosophical, political, religious, like, like there’s very little agreement there. Maybe I’m overstating you

[58:03] Diane: can still talk about OK, they’ve

[58:06] Michelle: always they’ve always bonded over cooking,

[58:08] Diane: so good

[58:08] Michelle: and

[58:08] Diane: we like to play Shanghai. But as far as as far as having any kind of meaningful discussion about any life event, anything in the church, anything political, anything that means anything, there is no ability to have a, any, uh, much of a conversation because we’re so diametrically opposed on, on belief systems. And so they kind of, my youngest, um, daughter. Left for different reasons. She never had a testimony. She, um,

[58:47] Michelle: and she was raised in, so your first four were raised really close together, then you have two Tagalongs who were raised in different circumstances with a different,

[58:54] Diane: yeah, lots of different things. And there are a lot of different reasons that that my kids left, but my youngest one went all through primary and has no idea who Joseph Smith is. She just missed everything. Doesn’t

[59:11] Michelle: kind of in her own world that same way, like the focus was

[59:13] Diane: just, um, and so she never got there.

[59:19] Michelle: So the 5th, you would say like if we’re gonna put it like sinned against the lesser light, but not that I’m saying they sinned, but, but she just didn’t ever get,

[59:29] Diane: she never, she never got it. And so, but the, the older.

[59:35] Michelle: Three of them served missions,

[59:37] Diane: and they were all married in the temple and they all got their start and so as far as what What my job was, which was to launch them. In the best way possible, I got that done. And then it was after they had their children and started having their families, and then they made the decisions for a variety of reasons. There were some very, very, um,

[1:00:07] Michelle: and let’s just say there is validity to the pain they experience.

[1:00:11] Diane: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There were, there were some um completely uninspired and um Damaging. In Time with bishops that Um, that were completely devastating because it was not inspired counselor advice. It was contrary to everything. There were the, and, and these kids are highly intelligent, and uh the women in the priesthood and the

[1:00:46] Michelle: And being an LDS who’s being a woman in the church who one of your daughters struggled with, um, infertility, that’s a difficult, there, there are lots of trials that people can go through that can make church a little less comfortable. I think many of us have experienced similar things and done different things with them, but your children’s experience with these things affected them and

[1:01:09] Diane: in a

[1:01:10] Michelle: different

[1:01:10] Diane: way. The journey that they went on. I don’t necessarily agree with it, but I do agree that there were difficult things and difficult challenges.

[1:01:20] Michelle: It’s a fine line to try to explain because it’s like there were things that happened. That doesn’t mean that it’s inevitable and it just is, it is what it is

[1:01:28] Diane: to understand that they had. Um Priesthood holders that professed righteousness that ended up

[1:01:39] Michelle: Doing bad stuff,

[1:01:41] Diane: bad stuff, right,

[1:01:42] Michelle: so seeing hypocrisy in the church, seeing all of those, all of those things, and so this is not in any way, because, because for me, I have very little judgment, you know, I have daughters that aren’t in the church, which I am, I’m not trying to get them back in the church, you know, like. I’m, I’m, I’m hoping that they’ll stay connected to God and live their best lives, you know. But that’s not our job. But right, I’m, I’m just, I’m so, so I don’t want this to come across in any way as judgmental of these, you know, of your kids. It’s been an interesting journey.

[1:02:15] Diane: They are magnificent humans. They’re amazing parents. And uh contributing in so many ways and so I’m very, very grateful for the children I have. It has been Painful To see this migration away from. The way that they were raised, because I feel like ultimately they would find more happiness if they were making decisions that were more in line with what the Lord. wants, but, um, but again, I can’t superimpose my belief system on top of their choices.

[1:02:55] Michelle: And, and, and I think from my perspective as, you know, like having having been really close with them, like your oldest and I, we homeschooled together, we, she didn’t get vaccines before. I didn’t get vaccines for my kids, you know, and and it’s kind of like. Everything has switched where you’re just going, oh, OK, we have nothing in common anymore. And, um, to the point that she decided she couldn’t associate with me anymore because we had nothing like, so she severed our relationship for a time. We’ve been, I hope that that is repaired, but it was very painful to, to, to have someone change so much and then reject you. You know, but I think that it was like, right, that’s what they like and it’s, and I know that like 2020 was just the worst possible and all of those years, you know, but it was interesting to me to have it be like, like I, because from my perspective, they changed so much and I never judged and I never so I just kept being a friend, you know, but then. All of a sudden I was no longer they couldn’t associate with me anymore, which was hard because like you said, they say that you’ve changed. Where from your perspective,

[1:04:07] Diane: well, I mean, have I?

[1:04:09] Michelle: Well, I, I mean, I’m sure we’ve all changed. I’m sure we’ve all changed, and there are other factors that come in and, you know, but, but, but no, I mean, I’m on the same trajectory I was in. You know, it’s really interesting to to have it be like, and it’s also hard because from my perspective, that side that pleads tolerance is so intolerant is how it’s felt to me, you know, there’s definitely more mocking coming from one side from how it feels to me and more rejection. But, you know, but so for you as the mom, I have two questions. Like, first, What was your pro your so so I happen to not believe that the no empty chairs in heaven is a helpful, I don’t think that’s a helpful way to view the world that like we need to put this weight of eternity on our kids, you know, that we, we have no like, like what does that mean for Lou, Aunt Lou, you know, and so. So I kind of want to know what your process was with that. When, when your first child started leaving, did you have to struggle with what does this mean eternally?

[1:05:14] Diane: Um, of course.

[1:05:15] Michelle: OK,

[1:05:16] Diane: absolutely. I think that’s a process that any parent goes through is their children. Choose to leave. Um, it’s, it’s based in our faith. And in our, in our families are forever mantra that we that we have. And so if you don’t have family, what does that mean? But um But we’re all on our journey, and the Lord has us in His hands, every single one of us. And Sometimes that journey is a little circuitous, and sometimes it’s a little more of a straight line, but we’re all here and there’s a plan for each of us. The um. The interesting thing in watching my kids. Is that they’re just gaining their experience in a little bit of a different way than I would have chosen for them,

[1:06:11] Michelle: but it is

[1:06:12] Diane: or that you

[1:06:12] Michelle: gained yours or that,

[1:06:14] Diane: but it is their experience. And so there are two diametrically opposed philosophies within the church, and one is the cut and dried heaven and hell, no gray, no fence sitting. And this is the life to prepare to meet God, and if you pass fail test. Yes, pass fail, fail, you’re thrust down to with the pangs of everlasting hell. And then the other philosophy is eternal progression, and those two concepts cannot simultaneously exist. And so I choose eternal progression that this is a process that is going to continue after this life, and every person will be able to progress as much as they choose to, but it’s a choice and maybe there will be some people who don’t choose. To progress, but there is. I don’t believe a loving father on this earth that would tell a child. I am so sorry you made a bad choice, and it is hell for you now,

[1:07:27] Michelle: right, even Mark, like how Lou kept going and God keeps going

[1:07:33] Diane: and, and so that concept of a loving father that’s allowing us experiences. But it’s within the confines of what he is already where we’re gonna, we’re gonna have. And he, he will prepare those blessings and those learning opportunities for these kids, every, for us, for, for me. Those things have been prepared and, um, and I’m grateful for that.

[1:07:58] Michelle: Yeah. So you kind of, my second question was, where are you with that now, but you kind of answered it, so that’s not something that torments you now, you know, OK.

[1:08:06] Diane: I mean, there are times that I’m sad as I have babies that aren’t blessed and 8 year olds that aren’t baptized

[1:08:11] Michelle: and children that don’t know any primary songs. That’s right, and grandchildren things,

[1:08:15] Diane: and I think, OK, when I die and they’re all supposed to get up and sing, I’m a child of God, you know, we’re kind of crap out of luck with that. But choose a

[1:08:23] Michelle: Beatles

[1:08:23] Diane: song instead. But there, but the grandkids are on their own journey as well. And so would you mind if I shared my experience? I

[1:08:36] Michelle: that’s what I want. Can I say one thing first? And um, so one thing I do want to say because I think I, I have some trepidation about making it sound like we’re on the right path and they’re on the wrong path and they’ll get because I know that’s not that it’s not what you’re saying. I want to say though. That having been such good friends with your kids, particularly your, your oldest, you know, has profoundly blessed me because as they were going through their experiences, I got to learn so much. They brought things to my awareness that I wouldn’t have seen that I wouldn’t have been aware of. They made me much more um insightful and, and, you know, like, like, it’s so important for all of us to have each other. So I really view it as like Hey, we’re on the straight and narrow path, and we need that thing clear over there. So someone’s got to be the one to go get it and bring it back to bless all of us, you know. So I do feel, um, I wish that there weren’t so much division and, you know, sometimes like that’s all hard, but I’m sure that that comes from every side. But I, and you know, and, and then like sad, like 2015 was such a painful year because that’s when we had some bad church an awful church policy, and I feel like that just Thrust division so much where people who were like, I’m not in the church, but I can still be friendly to the church to all of a sudden we’re like, I hate the church. And I feel like that really happened with with your kids. So I take responsibility. I mean, like, it’s heartbreaking to me that we have not done a better job as, as a church, you know. And so I do just want to talk, say like, well, it’s hard to be experiencing this, I am really thankful for what I have gained. Through my own journey but also through your kids’ journeys. It’s been, I think, very valuable to so many of us and and I I have to say that I like it’s all hard, but, but I love. I, I don’t like the self-righteous not questioning way of being a Mormon at all. And I think, so, so there are lots of ways to be, there are lots of ways to be on a path that does, that’s that’s hard, right? And I guess I’m like, oh, if you leave the church, but you’re a loving person over, you’re in the church, but you are self-righteous. Like I don’t, I would never choose that one over it, you know,

[1:10:52] Diane: that’s, that’s why I said that they are such good humans and I’m so grateful for them. And their memberships and their testimonies are way down the list and the things that are important, the

[1:11:05] Michelle: high

[1:11:06] Diane: priorities, yeah, yeah. And

[1:11:09] Michelle: so yeah, so now I, Diane has had because, you know, this has been a hard journey. I know that there are like Carolyn Pearson said that at her low moment, she’s like, God, why creation? Why can’t we just go back to the quiet before the Big Bang, you know. And I think, and I, you know, those are dark thoughts, but I think, yeah, I get it, you know, and and your hard moments of like. All of this struggle. Why did I even have kids? And I think a lot of people can relate to that cause it’s like you try so hard you pour your heart and soul into your children and then. At moments where they all hate you and you know, like why did I even do this? And so kind of share your journey and and some of the beautiful answers you’ve had.

[1:11:52] Diane: I think this is an important. Moment. In your podcast and um something that I would like to share because the people that I’ve shared this with, it has kind of profoundly influenced What the way that they think about their parenting and their motherhood. Oh good,

[1:12:18] Michelle: I’m glad we all get to hear this.

[1:12:20] Diane: As um as I was struggling for years over this, you know, you say your prayers and you say, first of all, it starts with what did I do wrong? and then it, it morphs over to what can I do now? And what do I need to do better and how can I influence these kids, and um what should I have done, you know, there are all those questions that go through any parent who tries. And, and so as I was going through that process, I was blessed with a series of dreams that have so Fundamentally changed the way that I look at motherhood and everything and and I’m grateful to be able to share. So the first dream was um It was a vignette, um, and I was actually there and because I could feel the wind and I could, could experience it, I was standing on um I was standing with the wind whipping, and in front of me there was a granite rock that was about 4 4 ft high, and kind of a flat top. And there was a woman standing on the rock. She was older, she had white hair. Um, She was wearing a white dress and it was whipping in the wind. And in her hand she was holding a lantern. And she was looking. Forward past me. With the most serene, beautiful expression on her face, it was patience. And love and hope and joy. And just exuding that love and so the

[1:14:23] Michelle: absence of stress.

[1:14:25] Diane: Oh, there was no stress at all. And so I turned to look at what she was like looking at and there was a lake. That was black waves whipping in the wind and floating on the lake were a whole bunch of rafts and little boats that were filled with children and grandchildren, and some of them were looking at her and pointing. Some were struggling to get back to shore. Some were actively rowing away and some were just bobbing on the surface, but she was holding a lamp for them. So that they would know where to go when they were ready. And at that moment. The then, um, I was told. The name of this is mother. And Fathers are important, but there is a bond that mothers have with their children, and at that moment I realized it’s not up to me. To do or say anything, I don’t need to go into the water.

[1:15:38] Michelle: You can’t paddle for them.

[1:15:39] Diane: You can’t do anything. All I can do is stand on the shore. And love them and hold my lamp. And it solved so many problems for me because I realized that that is my job. Is simply to hold my lamp up. And they will know when they’re ready, where it is, so that they’ll know how to get to the shore. And I, I was so. Blessed by that experience because you were in turmoil, in turmoil. What can I do? What can I say? How can I help? But all of that dissolved. There was nothing I needed to do or say other than just love them and

[1:16:27] Michelle: hold

[1:16:27] Diane: my lamp.

[1:16:28] Michelle: And I, I remember you telling me, I remember that change in you from the, I mean, you’ve always been wonderful and filled with faith, but the Heartbroken worry of what can I do to the serenity. The, like, like, I guess stress is the best word I have for it, to peace was profound because she, and I think it’s so interesting we’re talking about this just a week after Carolyn Pearson and I spoke about heavenly mother, because it is teaching us heavenly mothering, right? And like that image of the mother holding the lamp and

[1:17:08] Diane: All good things come in threes. And so several months later. I again had a dream and I was on the same shore. And I saw the woman in front of me. The kids were bobbing on the lake. And I was told, look, and I turned and looked down the shore. And there all along the shore in both directions were mothers, mothers standing on rocks holding lamps, and at that moment I realized I am not holding the lamp just for my kids. I’m holding the lamp for your kids and for your kids. And there are other mothers that are holding that lamp, and in that moment it changed the way I interacted. With all of the young kids at work, with the checker at the checkout counter, at the, the people that I interact with.

[1:18:08] Michelle: When you say kids, you mean God’s kids, all of your fellow men, and,

[1:18:13] Diane: and as I hold that lamp. And as the mother that is down, you know, do you remember the scene in um Lord of the Rings where the lamp went from one to the other to the other, the bonfire, the bonfire, and it was kind of almost like that kind of an experience as I looked at this endless row of mothers. Guiding children to the shore, whether it was their children or someone else’s didn’t matter. It was the fact that they were holding the lamp for those kids that are lost.

[1:18:51] Michelle: And can we, can we just say holding the lamp is not, it, it’s, it’s being, not doing. Just like you said, you’re not going into the water, you’re not preaching, you’re not writing letters, you’re not trying to, you are just being who you are and

[1:19:08] Diane: And holding that lamp and also in that vision, I was told that the lamp was the light of Christ, but sometimes the kids are too far removed to be able to see the light of Christ from Christ and so they see it through that. That’s what

[1:19:26] Michelle: mothers

[1:19:27] Diane: do. That’s what mothers do. They reflect that. That’s the

[1:19:31] Michelle: power that lights the lamps. Yes,

[1:19:34] Diane: it is, it is. Sorry, I’m, I get weepy when we talk about this. And then it was months later that I was again Given the dream and this so profoundly changed the way that I think about everything, because this time instead of being on a rock, It was the. Lee Heist’s dream. And it was the tree of life, and it was the iron rod and the path. It’s I have for years had so many questions about what happens. To the people who wander off the path into the mists of darkness, into the filthy water, how do they find their way back? And now I saw on the row mother’s holding the rod of iron with one hand. And holding the lamp with the other so that their children will be able to see their way back. And that for me solved so many problems with that, that dream experience.

[1:20:52] Michelle: And those mothers on the path, they’re still making their way forward too. It’s like it’s not that the mother is perfect and the children are like, you know, it’s just this beautiful way. Uh, that we share that that mothers can share their love because they need something to do. I just, my husband just watched, um, on his own without me even making him to watch Sense and Sensibility. And it was the shorter version, but when, um, oh, I can’t think of his name, which is embarrassing, but he says, Give me an errand or I die, you know. Like that’s, it’s like when you are that filled with love, you need something to do. Like you were desperately saying, what can I do? And for God to give us that gift of saying, do this, reflect my light in your every action, and that is and

[1:21:41] Diane: hold and the rod and hold your lamp. And, um, all of the sudden. The vision of the tree of life made sense for me where it hasn’t before because I have always been so worried about the people that strayed and I don’t have to worry because they will be able to turn around and see anytime, anytime they’re ready. And so, um, that. Has not just affected me, but. There are so many families that are dealing with, if it’s not your own children, it’s your neighbors, and it’s your nieces and nephews, and it’s the people that you work with. Where they are struggling with faith, or they have completely rejected, or they are just questioning or they’re not quite as strong as they should be, and we are in such a good Situation to share with each other that little light that we have or that great burning that we have depending on the time of life and our own personal faith, but whatever it is, if it’s a a little birthday, if it’s a match, if we hold it up so that somebody can see then we’re doing our part

[1:23:09] Michelle: and you know what, I love that because if we want to be disciples of Christ. Who we are and how we are matters so much because. The oh I can say, you know, I don’t, but the self-righteous preachy would be disciple of Christ is not holding a lamp. They are holding a bat, right, and which, which is inviting, right? And so in this time, the best thing we can do really is just try to, I love just the visual of am I holding my lamp? Am I Am I sharing goodness, the loving kindness, the charity of God, in my, in my interactions with my fellow man, cause that’s what I’m here to do.

[1:23:54] Diane: This experience of having these three profound life-changing visions for me. Has relieved me of guilt. Or Obligation as far as trying to manipulate what my kids are doing. Control, yeah, any kind of control at all. My job is to love them and adore them. And reflect the love from the savior and I’m not perfect. Well,

[1:24:28] Michelle: and I was going to say the last thing you need is additional guilt or obligation because it’s hard enough to just navigate like and it’s hard enough to just Say, can we get together and how do I, is something going to come up that’s gonna be explosive or upsetting because it’s hard to even talk about there are there are fewer and fewer neutral topics in this world we’re living in with the political and philosophical divides.

[1:24:57] Diane: Should I share the thing that happened? Thanksgiving. If

[1:25:00] Michelle: you want to, yeah, I,

[1:25:03] Diane: my husband, there’s been quite a bit of estrangement between my kids and my husband.

[1:25:08] Michelle: So that’s been another additional hard part is you got remarried to a guy that’s your kids, that’s caused a little bit even more hardship.

[1:25:16] Diane: Yes, because he is. An old opinionated white guy,

[1:25:24] Michelle: you know, who, who, who isn’t always the most, um, careful, shall we say.

[1:25:29] Diane: And so there’s been, there’s been an awful lot of problems with that. And so at Thanksgiving, I was having, and I was so grateful that some of the kids were going to come over for Thanksgiving because that’s a

[1:25:42] Michelle: little touch and go,

[1:25:43] Diane: it still is. And so my husband called and he said, I want you to go to the liquor store and buy a couple of bottles of wine.

[1:25:50] Michelle: Her husband, who’s also a member of the church and doesn’t drink,

[1:25:54] Diane: right, right. And I said, um, Seriously.

[1:26:00] Michelle: He didn’t really ask questions.

[1:26:02] Diane: OK. And he said, Yeah, I feel really strongly that we need to do this. And so when we had, we had 17 people, I think, for Thanksgiving, and he pulled, um, two of my kids over, and he said, I know that you enjoy wine with your dinner. And so, um, We got these for you, and Yeah

[1:26:26] Michelle: I love that so much.

[1:26:28] Diane: It was when you look at where we are in the church and what we’re gonna do in our home and all of those things, it went contrary to all of that, but My kids said that it totally changed. Their hearts And did some softening because he saw them. And there was no judgment, and he saw

[1:26:58] Michelle: his priority in that moment was saying, I see who you are and and I and I and I love you, yes, I think, and I think that was inspiration that he had to do that. I think that was beautiful.

[1:27:13] Diane: And

[1:27:14] Michelle: one

[1:27:14] Diane: of the

[1:27:15] Michelle: and I think such a good example of what we can all do because in a way that’s that’s holding light too.

[1:27:21] Diane: You know, and one of my, one of my kids said it wasn’t about the wine. It was about the fact that he

[1:27:29] Michelle: was choosing us, choosing judgment.

[1:27:33] Diane: And so I’m not telling people that they should go out and buy wine.

[1:27:37] Michelle: No, but they should follow their inspiration,

[1:27:41] Diane: and there will be opportunities for you to bridge those barriers. And start to create. That reestablished connections that have maybe been lost. If we’re not so stuck on being the

[1:28:02] Michelle: Pharisee, is that is OK like,

[1:28:06] Diane: and, and, and it’s not of being a Pharisee to say we don’t drink in our house. That’s not, that’s not uh an analogy that I want to go to, but it’s, it’s the fact that there are traditions in the church. There is the pure gospel of Christ and sometimes we’re so. Um, eager to attribute. The traditions to the gospel, but looking beyond the traditions to the pure gospel, sometimes that means stepping out of our own comfort zone to allow people Their own self-expression

[1:28:41] Michelle: and, and it is so individual and unique. I’m glad that you pushed back on me saying that because if there are like your children are genuinely good people doing good things with their lives and if there are kids that are not or that are more manipulative or that are, you know, like the The calculus is different in each of these situations. And so, but it is what I love about what you’re sharing and, um, is that, and what I think Aunt Lou probably had to learn to the depths of her soul is that God does not want a population of broken-hearted mothers. That is not what God wants for. Her daughters, that is not what our heavenly mother wants for her daughters, that is not who our heavenly mother is if we are trying to magnify her and our heavenly Father, they’re one I just struggle with the male pronouns when we’re talking about God, so. So, um, forgive me if that’s offensive to you. I just, we’re talking about motherhood and your experience, and I think it is so important for us as mothers to embrace that divinity within us of faith, charity, serenity, peace in the midst of all of that while I like, I love how your example. Coincides with Aunt Lou with going to the prison every stinking week for how many decades now, you know, 5 decades or 4 decades over 40 years, she went to that prison every single day or week, every single week, once a week, and so we, and it’s and it goes along the lines with with Lot’s wife, what I learned about Lot’s wife, which I still need to do a full episode on, but I know I talked about it in one episode, but That we just keep loving and keep reaching out and keep doing our best to be the best people we can be. And And that’s, that’s what, that’s, I think what holding our lamp is, right? That is holding our lamp. It’s just, it gives us, if anything, it gives us a greater responsibility to be the very best representatives of the beautiful parts of the gospel of Jesus, the most beautiful parts of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[1:30:47] Diane: And maybe the whole thing comes down to being able to look at our children and say, I see you and I love you. I do not see what I wanted you to be. And

[1:31:00] Michelle: put that on top of you

[1:31:02] Diane: and I’m sad because we’re not there. That It is devastating for them and for us,

[1:31:11] Michelle: and it’s not what God does to us like God like the tree you you talked about the Hays dream and the tree is the love of God, which means God says, I see you and I love you. The love of God is not as soon as you measure up, I will love you. That’s right what we’re trying to get away from, so we as parents can do that same thing for our children.

[1:31:35] Diane: So the Unrealized expectations can cause so much unhappiness. But we’re commanded to have joy, and that means that we cannot pine our life away because other people are choosing differently. We just get to within ourselves, find joy and choose joy because it is a choice. It

[1:32:01] Michelle: is and it’s also. The outcome of faith. If we are living in sorrow and brokenheartedness, we don’t have faith. We don’t trust the plan. We don’t think God’s plan is good. We certainly don’t have faith in the atonement and in the power of God to save, and we, we are rejecting the fullness of joy. That God is not only offering to us, but commanding us to receive, right? So I, I’m so glad you’re willing to come on and share that. I think that that is so beautiful. I hope it is as impactful to you guys as it is to me that we hold our lamp and I love you. Weren’t I lucky to have, have this family and this big sister. So anyway, thank you for sticking around with us. I would love to hear your comments. I hope that this was as as fun for you as it was for me. So we’ll see you later. I have to once again thank my sweet sister for sitting down and giving me her time and sharing her beautiful and profound insights. I hope that you found them as inspiring and faith and hope provoking as I did. And I also hope that you found this information that we shared on this, uh, difficult topic of our church heritage that That we share, not all of us are related to Mark Hoffman, but we all are through our commonality in the church. So it’s important that we understand as much as we can about these topics so that we can know how to hopefully move forward always doing better. So I am so glad that you’re sticking with me. I have so Any more things planned that I’m really excited about. So I hope you’re enjoying these interviews that we’re doing. Next week will be my interview with Brian Hailes, and that one is worth listening to. That was a tough interview to have. So I’m really excited to release it and continue the discussion. There are a lot more topics that I have in mind that we’re doing going forward, so I hope that you are continuing to find this series informative and enlightening and important because I know the deeper I dive, the more I see that there is to dive into. So thank you so much for being here and for um sticking with us, and I will see you next time.