The second part of my conversation with the legendary Carol Lynn Pearson. Carol Lynn shares more profound insights, shares several of her poems about Mother God, and describes her most recent book, The Love Map.
I highly recommend her books, particularly her newer books, The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy, Finding Mother God (which we will cover in greater depth in part 2,) and The Love Map.
https://carollynnpearson.com/
Please consider supporting this podcast:
Transcript
[00:00] Michelle: Happy New Year to each of you and welcome to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon polygamy. This is the second part of my wonderful conversation with the wonderful Carolyn Pearson, where we discuss her book Finding Mother God, and she reads several of her just charming, delightful, brilliant poems to us. I hope that you will enjoy it as much as I did. And we also discuss her more recent book, um, The Love map, Saving your Relationship and incidentally Saving the world. So thank you so much for being here with us as we take a deep dive into the murky waters of Mormon polygamy.
[00:54] Carol Lynn Pearson: And, and I, and I feel OK using the word patriarchy, because the purer, the better word that we should all be willing to walk toward, run toward, help to build is the word partnership. And I really think our men of goodwill. Once they understand the history, once they understand the present experience, Of women will say, of course I want that for my wife, of course I want that for my daughter. Of course I want, I want our society to to present that. Which is is so much finer than what we’ve inherited because we right now are the builders. We, we, we have received something, there’s no reason for us to just sit around and complain and condemn and say, wow, you know, why didn’t they do something better than that. We are in the now and we are the ones who are called upon to do something better than that. And we can, because our consciousness allows for conversations like you and I have been having. And so I just want to put the word partnership out there as the beautiful destination, as we reload our wagons, and throw away some things that are now useless, and put on board things that are more correct and useful and beautiful, and travel together, holding hands, men and women together, moving into this glorious green. Partnership Future. That is what I believe and hope that we are all uh acknowledging.
[02:49] Michelle: I love that. I love that so much. I think it makes me want to invite. I, I know I have some people who listen, um, in order to oppose me, some very, um, pro polygamist listeners who just like to, you know, and I want to just invite them to please. Consider the idea of this vision of Zion, rather than thinking that polygamy is the opportunity to show righteousness and faithfulness and willingness to serve God, consider shifting it and having it be partnership, doing exactly what you just said to. Do what is your part to bring us forward into this new, beautiful, lush Zion, rather than thinking you have to drag us backward into that horrible wasteland of Zion that never was because it never could be. That, that never could be Zion. And it’s as I keep saying it as insane to me to keep thinking, like, like people say about communism. Well, it just has We just need to do it again. It hasn’t been done right. We’ll get this wonderful utopia if we do it again. And I think the same thing about polygamy. Like, why would it create Zion? You know, people keep breaking off. I’m, I’m in Utah, so you’re maybe a little bit like in these weird times that we have, people go into their own, um, communities to try to prepare for what’s coming. And polygamy has a way of creeping up. And I keep just wanting to say, It’s never worked. You never received the blessings of protection because it’s contrary to God. And you know, you know, like, let’s let’s have this new vision of Zion of partnership with father and mother on every level, from the divine all the way down. I, I have so many directions I want to take this and I know we’re probably, are you OK to go a little longer?
[04:37] Carol Lynn Pearson: Oh, listen, I’ve got as long as you want. Oh, no, no, uh, Michelle, I so honor. Everything you’re sharing about your personal journey, and, and, and, and I believe that you are truly tenderly concerned for the people who are listening to you, for whom this is kind of a shocking thing. And, you know, they belong on the journey too, in whatever way that they are able to. But I with you, well, I would of course urge them to read this book that I spent a long time creating the goal.
[05:20] Michelle: Please understand and do the hard work of learning to see that women matter, which is exactly why God forbids polygamy. We have to do the hard work to realize. That women’s experiences and feelings matter immensely in the sight of God, and thus they should in all of our own eyes. Sorry, continue.
[05:45] Carol Lynn Pearson: Well, no, um, that’s pretty much where I just wanted to, to, to, to leave this to not, not to, not to exclude or condemn the people who do not think like you and I think right now. Because as as you’ve expressed, it wasn’t too many years ago. That that you were just questioning the whole idea of anybody questioning polygamy. Uh, so, let us all. Just keep our minds. Open And, and, and I really do invite people to, to read this book because I think, you know, it, it. I, I, at the beginning of the book, I say I am not angry this morning, as I as I begin this book. I have been angry, and truly I have been. Michelle, I have been very, very angry. But I wrote, I, I am, I have learned that anger is good as a fuel, but not as a destination. Uh, and so for anybody who is wary about picking up this book, I, I wanna let you know that It was written with a lot of love for brother Joseph. And and I won’t take time to tell the story, but I, I, I had a magnificent meeting with My then state presidency and their wives. I called for the meeting.
[07:14] Michelle: Wow, you called your state presidency and their wives into a meeting. Caroline, Caroline, you are like, I, well, I haven’t said this yet. I don’t want to interrupt your story, but I do want to tell you how much I honor and appreciate your decades of
[07:31] Carol Lynn Pearson: work and. OK, as long as I brought this up, and they would not mind. Um, my, my fanste presidency. Uh, whom I just loved and continue to love and and stay in close touch with. Uh, when I, when I decided that I was going to write this book about polygamy, I, I emailed my state president, and I said, um, hey, I’m going to be doing something, uh, that involves polygamy. Would you like me to tell you what I will be doing, or do you think you’d be better off not knowing? And he said, oh no, I wanna know. I wanna know, Caroline. So, are you free on Tuesday evening? And I said, uh, yes, sure. I would love to meet with you. And so we set that up, and then I contacted him and I said, listen, I want both your counselors at this meeting. And he invited them and they said, yes. And then I contacted him again and I said, guess what? I want all 3 of your wives at this meeting. And they invited the wives, and the wives said, yes, we want to come. So I had this splendid meeting at the home of one of the counselors. And we, we were there for at least 3.5 hours. And, and I told them I had already done the survey. And, and I told them exactly what I was going to be doing. And Um, and, and I read to them a few of the responses I had received. I told them my personal story. Um, we just had this great back and forth. Several of them volunteered their own bad stories they’d heard about the pain that all this brings, and I assured them that That I would be writing this in such a way. That uh people would understand that I love Joseph Smith. And they said, oh, you can’t do that. That’s not possible. And I said, well, I’m going to watch me and and and and and afterwards they agreed is that I don’t know how you pull that off, but, but you did. So in the, in, in that meeting. And it was wonderful, and I said to them, I would like, um, I would like you 3. Um, state presidency gentleman to to read the manuscript before I publish it, and they agreed to, and, and they did read it. And they were enthusiastically in support of it, and nobody asked me to change anything.
[10:10] Michelle: That is a beautiful story. That is Exquisite. I, I think that um Having good leadership is one of the hugest blessings we can experience. We’re so, I know the term, um, bishop roulette, you know, I, I, I want to share some of my experiences with my state president. I, I wouldn’t still be active in the church for my state president. So, with um How good he has been to me, so I hope that leaders can hear that. I do not think the church is a better place when people who have Um, different ideas or inspiration that pushes them to question some of the standard ideas when they are either kicked out or feel pushed out, you know, feel that there’s not a place for them. I do not think that makes our church a better place. So I’m so thankful for leaders like yours and for your proactive approach and how that went. I Years ago, I reached out to the state president about something I was doing and it did not go well, and I haven’t done that since, but my current state president. Can I just say this really quickly, while I was, um, my listeners know my story, but With my 13th baby, which, um, who we also didn’t get to keep after having lost another child, um, I was on bed rest and flat out and down for the count and Not planning. I was just planning to go with her and um. Um, I threw out a white flag and asked for a little bit of help in my house because I And that was turned down by my ward, which was hard to understand. And, um, Um, just, you know, um. Different leaders have different personalities or opinions, you know, and, and people are busy with temple work and so we’re so busy serving the dead sometimes that it feels like we can’t serve the living is how what I was struggling with, but My state presidency when they found out about our situation came over and I kind of unleashed all of this on them, cause also, 2020 was a bad year for us. We lost a child and we had All of the experiences with the world that were not that I did not agree, you know, it was just hard. Anyway. My state presidency came over 3 weeks in a row, and those 3 men in jeans cleaned my kitchen and did.
[12:43] Carol Lynn Pearson: Oh my gosh. Wow, that, that’s a, that’s a wonderful story.
[12:52] Michelle: So yeah, but I do want to honor the goodness of so many of our leaders, so many of, you know, I never want this to come across to say that. In any way, there’s any negativity toward men cause it could not be further from the truth. I I don’t like, they even, I had repainted my bathroom cabinets and then couldn’t rehang them. And so I didn’t have cab bathroom cabinets, but after working so hard and they even rehung those every single time I walked past my kids’ bathroom, I, I will never, you know, like, anyway, that kind of goodness and love. I don’t even
[13:31] Carol Lynn Pearson: have absolutely. I’m, I’m so, I’m so glad that you mentioned that. I mean that that is just beautiful. And if, if anyone listening thinks that, that we’re not honoring the good men in our lives, and that’s just not true. Our focus here has been talking about this, this imbalance of maleness and female. But, you know, I look around in my ward, and I, there’s so many men there that I just love. And, and I’m so grateful for them. And And I love to see the men in my ward holding their babies. And you know, and I love to see the men in my ward in a circle doing the the blessing of of the babies. And I know that there are women who who are campaigning that women should be in that circle too. I, I don’t have that exact um picture of it. I, I, I, there, there are plenty of things that women ought to be focused that we should honor women for and give them much, much more. However, this one thing. There this one ritual that I love watching a male ritual. I think it is so important and and and so it’s in this, it it it is a a a social tribal ritual of a man standing up before his community. All
[14:59] Michelle: of the men, all of the men in the tribe.
[15:02] Carol Lynn Pearson: Right. And, and the father is saying, I am the father of this child. And I will be the father of this child as long as this child lives, and I will give this child everything that I have. Because, you know, worldwide, I mean, I, I, I wish it would be the case that that every baby born could have that kind of commitment from the father, because we know there are a lot of cultures. And in in which the father just kind of disappears rather frequently.
[15:38] Michelle: Mhm. So like polygamy. I’ll just throw that in there.
[15:41] Carol Lynn Pearson: Oh well, oh my gosh.
[15:43] Michelle: Sorry, bring me to that, but yeah, I actually agree with you. I love Father’s blessings. I love the circle of suits holding, and I’m the mother of 7 sons. There’s, it would be impossible and love me. And, um, so I want to talk about, I, there are so many things, and I so appreciate you having this conversation with me. I just, I love you. And, um, and it’s I
[16:08] Carol Lynn Pearson: love you too, Michelle. This is the first time we’ve ever met.
[16:12] Michelle: I know. And I, and I love talking to you, but I feel like this book, See, I, I was down for the count in 2020 and 2021. I did not know that you had new books. I should have, of course, you do. But this book, um, Finding Mother God. Since since I reached out to you actually about the polygamy book, but in preparing, I read through this book twice. I actually, I do audiobooks, so I just want to tell everybody. I was at first thinking I should buy this for all of my daughters and daughters-in-law. And then I was like, what am I thinking? I should buy this for all of my children. This is not just a woman’s book anymore than heavenly Mother. It’s just a mother’s go, right? It is so beautiful, Carolyn. It is so profound, so well done, so just exquisite. I want to thank you for this book and kind of ask you the same question about Your experience of writing this book because it’s such a beautiful way to again just bring to the consciousness. Hey guys, let’s let’s talk about this. Let’s, here’s a way that we can conceive of. Heavenly mother, in our conversation, in our community, in our manuals, in our discussion, in our theology, in our church.
[17:35] Carol Lynn Pearson: So the question is what, how did I come to do this? What, what was
[17:40] Michelle: your impetus for writing this book? Yeah, I, sorry, I wasn’t clear on that
[17:46] Carol Lynn Pearson: from decades ago. It has been clear to me, you know, although I did not have the words that if God is male, oh well, OK, here’s some, here’s a little moment from my when I was at BYU in the drama department, and I had a great time at BYU. I loved it, loved my professors, but I would always bring up to to some of them, these questions that I was having about, you know, all of this, this women stuff. And I remember having a conversation with one of my professors that I really admired a lot, and I said, tell me. Do you believe that That God values maleness more than God values femaleness. And he said, well, I, I guess I’d have to say yes, because God being God could choose to be anything God chose to be, and God chose to be male. Now that was the answer I was given. I don’t think that was Of course, I was consistent with everything else that was coming at me from church. So there’s there’s nothing really surprising about that answer.
[19:01] Michelle: So you were told that God not only was male but that God chose to be male.
[19:06] Carol Lynn Pearson: That’s the way that God. That’s the way this particular professor framed that answer. Um, um, so
[19:18] Michelle: I’m speechless, OK.
[19:20] Carol Lynn Pearson: Yeah. But, but the idea. That the source that brought us here is male. I mean, that’s, that’s intrinsic. That’s intrinsic to everything we’ve ever been taught forever and ever and ever, as far as we know, although, and I have to just throw in a little thing here, and then we’ll get on to. I, I, I was made aware of a book about a year ago. I, I think the title of the book is the name. Uh, by Uh, a, a rabbi scholar who did a huge amount of research going back and, and you know, in, in, in the whole rabbi culture, you don’t speak aloud the name of God. Mhm. And as he went back and back and back in his research to the very, very first beginning of whatever the name of God started to be. He said it would be translated to He, she He, she, together, he, she. I love that. OK. It, it may be that, you know, we have lost so much of whatever early perceptions, inspirations there were. I, I don’t know, but back to me, so. See, for decades, for decades, in my own personal prayers, I have acknowledged God as both father and mother. I’ve never done, I’ve never done that in in the chapel, of course. Uh, in fact, I was having a, a visit with a, a state president, a different one that I just mentioned. And it was during the time when, you know, just before President Hinckley made that edict in 1991, that we’re not to pray to heavenly mother. And, and I, I told him that, you know, for, for my, my prayers for decades, personal prayers have been to mother and father combined. But, but I said I, I will never, and I, I have never and I never will give a prayer that would make anybody uncomfortable in church. And he said, oh, that’s good to know. So I’m gonna ask you to give the closing prayer and state conference next, next month. So anyway, I’m, I’m doing tangents here. But my OK, the thing that that actually spurred me to finally, and this is the book of of poems, Finding Mother God. And, and this too began in anger, just as I, I, I told you the ghost of polygamy began in anger, but and I, I had been to a. To a fireside Mormon scholar, gave us his history of women in the church, kind of a dismal sort of thing in the 20th century history and Uh, it, it, I mean, so. Anyway, In the question and answer period, I raised my hand and I said, Uh, you know, all of these things that the brethren are doing to try to give a little bit more visibility to women. These are all fine. But, but, but there will not be anything really valuable until they are ready to Address the gender of God. And I said how, how, how can, how can this happen to to help that to, to become the fact? And he said, well, I just can’t think of any of the brethren in Salt Lake who are ready to do the heavy lifting. That would be required to address that subject. And I just felt some anger flowing through me. I, I said to myself, what are you saying is true, what is true, but it makes me very angry that it is true. And I drove home with my friend. I, we were both upset. The next day I was so upset that I cried. I cried over the fact that it was true, that the leadership of my church. Did not care enough. To acknowledge that the gender of God. is worth attention. I was so angry that I grabbed a notebook and I wrote a poem. I hadn’t written a poem for years and years and years. And then next day I wrote another poem. The next day I wrote 2. And by that time my anger was gone because I was so excited and I I had I had thought I had thought that I had covered my contribution to the idea of God as mother. But here I, I, I found because and, and I, I want your audience to understand this. In, in the 90s, I performed over 300 times a one woman play that I wrote, directed, costumed, presented. Um, over 2 hours of me performing 16 women throughout history in search of the female face of God. And uh for anybody who finds that interesting, the, the, I made a professional video of it, and the video and the book are available on my website, just Carolyn Pearson.com. I’m so excited to get that like my other books. But so I thought I had done everything I needed to do on that subject because that was huge. But when I heard this particular event, Being told that That nobody in the leadership of my church was interested in in that subject. I thought, OK. It’s up to me to do the heavy lifting in poetry. That’s I was just so thrilled, you know, every day I, I had this new, oh, I, I, I, I could not hardly wait to get to my notebook to, to, to write out these, these poems. So that’s how that happened. And I just put it out and found that a lot of other people found this to be really, really useful. But now, now I, I, I wanna add that just as I involved my state presidency in what I was doing with uh the ghost of eternal polygamy. And I, I sent a copy of the ghost of eternal polygamy to all of the of the leadership of our church in in Salt Lake. Also, with, with each of the general authorities, not, not all the 70s, but each of the major gentlemen. The apostles got got a uh uh a little package with two books in it, one signed to him saying in an appreciation. And with the hope that you will lead us into a truly post-polygamy future and then would not be signed to the wife by by name.
[26:27] Michelle: I love that. That’s beautiful.
[26:29] Carol Lynn Pearson: And I, and I also sent uh copies of Fighting Mother God. Because you see, I’m not hiding what I’m doing. I am being very open about what I’m doing. And I’m not ashamed of anything that I’m doing. I’m, I’m sure I’m not doing everything perfectly, but I’m doing it to the very best of my calling, and it is my calling to address these issues.
[26:54] Michelle: Absolutely, I love that, and I think it’s not even so much about being, oh well, I love you saying that you’re not afraid. I also love seeing How you have been protected, how you have been enabled to stay in the church, because not everyone has had that same
[27:09] Carol Lynn Pearson: I, I understand, and I’m sorry about that. I.
[27:13] Michelle: I, I, like I said for years, I have had these things pressing on me. This is one of them that I have been like, like, it’s been painful to know there were things the Lord sent me here to do that I wasn’t yet doing. And I just was always told, not yet. Not yet. And then for me, I now can see the incredible wisdom not only in my children and my family that I was called to have, but I feel quite certain that in 2017, with some things that happened that year, And in 2020, if I had had a platform, I would not still be a member of the church, I believe, because I was angry, angry in both of those years. And, um, and so there is, um, there is wisdom in God walking us each in our own path. But I love that you set a model of someone who has been both enabled to and has chosen to stay in the church because it is such a blessing. It’s such a blessing to me and to my family to be in the church despite the struggles, and I think it’s a blessing to the church to have people like you and me in it.
[28:19] Carol Lynn Pearson: Of course it is. Of course it is.
[28:22] Michelle: And so I think I love like, I, I really think that I agree with you. I don’t stand up in church and pray to Mother God because that’s not what we’re there for. We’re not there to try to make political statements and make people uncomfortable. But in my own, in my own experience, my experiences with God, I guess when I’m praying to God, I haven’t visualized. Usually male or female. It’s this source that I am connected to. There have been times, I’ll share one experience I had, and then I want to ask you more questions, but I mentioned I have 13 children, 11 and living, and I’ve homeschooled them most of their. This is, this is my first year not homeschooling. So it’s been a labor of love, shall we say. And I remember one night distinctly just Exhausted, so exhausted, but I was still putting food away and still folding laundry at probably 12:30 at night. I was pregnant. I was so tired and I was just praying like, God, can I just come home? It’s too hard. It’s too much. I’m so tired. And My mother. With this Loving laugh that I cannot describe. Ratt turns from me and said, Oh, my sweet daughter, this is what you wanted more than anything, and here you are wishing it away. And, and I was shown, I’m sharing this, I hope, but I was shown sitting at her feet with this yearning that is pain that was painful, this desire to be like her. I wanted so much to be like her, and I wasn’t. And that, and, and this experience that I was given is my opportunity to become more like her and I was wishing it away. I, I know my mother. I’ve had other experiences with her. And, um, and so I don’t feel like for me. I don’t feel necessarily dependent on, I don’t feel like it’s men’s work to bring us into contact with our mother. I feel like that’s ours. Absolutely. And whatever happens in the church will happen, but we don’t have to wait or depend on or rely on, you know, we, our connection to God is our own and doesn’t go through anybody else.
[30:57] Carol Lynn Pearson: Absolutely. And thank you so much for for sharing that. That that that was beautiful and and we all have our own ways. Of experiencing this, and, and I myself have never had a remarkable, unusual spiritual event around this. But I just know. That whatever I’m experiencing that feels godly. It is good, and it only feels good when I allow for that feeling, that visualization, or just that impression. To be a father, mother. Together. So I, so I appreciate how you described yours and then everyone has their own, their own way of of experiencing all this.
[31:51] Michelle: Yep, I completely agree. I think everyone’s path is so unique and individual. I wonder, do you have your book nearby you? I wondered about potentially having you read some of your poems. OK, so I don’t, we don’t have to read this first one. I just want to share this line that I found so delightful because it was actually something I was thinking about. So this is the first love story, and I’ll just share the first line of it if it’s all right. I love that it says. I know God is love, but is God in love? Is God totally crazy about each other? And that right there for me encapsulates so much of what this book is. It is so delightfully fresh and new and It is just, it is just delightful, repeatedly, continually delightful.
[32:40] Carol Lynn Pearson: Thank you, thank you. That makes me so happy to have you say that. I was so delighted to write all this. It just just tickled me.
[32:49] Michelle: Yes. And, and I, I, I interviewed, um, Patrick Mason last week and I told him he had the career that I would have wanted if I didn’t have 13 children. But I will say the same thing to you. I actually was an English major before I was a musical theater major and I love to write and I, I, anyway, so I appreciate good ideas and good use of words and good poems. So this is, it’s just brilliant and so Like, I cried, I laughed, I grinned, I cried some more. Carolyn, it just is such a gift to us, and I hope it will be shared and spread. Like, I hope that everyone will buy it, not only for their mothers and sisters, but like I said, their fathers and their brothers and their bishops. I think that it’s a beautiful conversation to start. Yes, yes. I, I just, I just love it. And so, yeah, and that really is like we should just stop and think about that. If we want to accept this concept of God as father and mother as exalted. As as an exalted married couple, right? There are so many beautiful, wonderful questions to ask in this very unique doctrine that we happen to have only in our church of the nature of God as an exalted couple. and The question of, is God totally in love with each other or is God a man with a with a with a harem of millions of nameless, faceless, right? These are important questions.
[34:24] Carol Lynn Pearson: Right. And isn’t that absurd even to have you say the words? Oh, I mean, really,
[34:30] Michelle: I mean really talking to you because you’re not in Utah and you’ve been in this for Along. It is bizarre that we are still talking about polygamy in the way of saying, Hey, we need to let people know this isn’t true. That’s right? It’s, it’s crazy. We, we need,
[34:49] Carol Lynn Pearson: we need to go door to door and knock on doors and say, we’re missionaries for the mother. May we come in and share a message with you.
[34:57] Michelle: Maybe that’s what we need to start doing. I love it missionaries for the mother. Um, OK, would you read Common Sense?
[35:06] Carol Lynn Pearson: This makes me laugh just because it is fun. Common sense. I may not be the sharpest knife in the chandelier or the brightest bulb in the drawer. But seeing the creatures out in the zoo and the creatures up in the blue, and the creatures on 5th Avenue, who are pretty equally girl and guy, I will not buy the Brooklyn Bridge, nor will I buy a story that says the creator of all the creatures, including me, was one. Or 2 or 3 male beings, never mind how potent their omnipotence might be.
[35:55] Michelle: Thank you. That was wonderful. That one has a little more spunk than most of them. I don’t want to scare people up that off. That’s so fun. And I think it speaks to both the idea of polygamy and the idea of Mother God, included with Father God, because I, I, I wanted to throw in here some one pushback you hear often is there are going to be so much more women in heaven.
[36:19] Carol Lynn Pearson: That’s so absurd. That’s such an insult to men. And I don’t go for an insult to men.
[36:25] Michelle: It is, it’s a complete insult to men. It’s also denying the biological reality that the birth rate is slightly skewed in favor of males because slightly more male infants die and more males throughout throughout their entire lives die. So God even adjusted for that, which also also means if we believe the Book of Mormon, that infants are in heaven, there will be far, far, far, far, far more men, more males in heaven than females. And would that idea work in reverse, could I go to the men and say, Oh, we’ll have to all have multiple husbands because there will be way more males in heaven. I, that shows how ludicrous that argument is.
[37:10] Carol Lynn Pearson: Well, isn’t it amazing, the bizarre. Ideas that have been have that have come in to try to shore up polygamy, which is a losing proposition in the first place.
[37:25] Michelle: Oh yes. It is, that’s been, that’s been part of the fun of my journey has been examining these different ideas and these different claims that are still adamantly made by so many people and just getting in and studying them out and just having them be like, Like, like they just melt like cotton candy. It’s like that it’s so bad. I have yet to see
[37:46] Carol Lynn Pearson: and to me and probably to you, it it’s just like, really, do you want to continue to, to want to to have a conversation about whether or not the earth is flat? Right, right.
[37:57] Michelle: Yeah
[37:57] Carol Lynn Pearson: that that’s the same kind of logic comes comes in to do trying to defend polygamy.
[38:02] Michelle: Yeah, that’s a good comparison. You’re right. OK, so, um, I also like Paradigm shift. I think that’s just 3 later in common sense.
[38:12] Carol Lynn Pearson: Um, OK, now I gotta go. I was,
[38:16] Michelle: so I want to tell everyone I just chose a few like these aren’t necessarily the, I mean this book is so
[38:24] Carol Lynn Pearson: I love them all. I know. Mhm. Paradigm shift. After 359 years, the Pope acknowledged that Heretic Galileo was right, and the sun does not revolve around the earth. How long will it take men of the earth to acknowledge that we heretic women are right, and the female does not revolve around the male. For we too have scoped the heavens, revealed the center. Can testify of the brilliant celestial bodies and lo, the heavenly hymn. And the heavenly her do no orbiting, no presiding, no ranking. are perfect partners in a slow dance, so close, you would observe that they are one.
[39:29] Michelle: Isn’t that? Do you love them as much when you read them again? Yes,
[39:33] Carol Lynn Pearson: I do. I love it. Makes me happy. It’s so good.
[39:38] Michelle: OK, now this might be because I am such a, I used to call myself a feminist because I love the feminine and so will you read 27? Well, it’s, it’s, I want to do that. It’s probably a few pages past that.
[39:55] Carol Lynn Pearson: Oh, and do you know what? After I published this book, I, I said I had a thought, oh, I wish I’d given a different title to this little verse here. I wish I’d title it. The right of the first bite, the R I T E. Oh,
[40:16] Michelle: that’s beautiful,
[40:18] Carol Lynn Pearson: right. Of the first bite.
[40:20] Michelle: Isn’t that, I
[40:21] Carol Lynn Pearson: know, but it’s too late, it’s too late now. We have chased the tale of Eve’s disobedience for centuries, and it has gotten us nowhere. In the poem that and in the poem that is Eve, here is how it happened. She saw the tree, the tree of life. She watched the growing and the graining, the blossoming and the bursting, and she said, I want to do that. And so she took the first sweet bite. Carefully, carefully going about her mother’s business.
[41:08] Michelle: Oh, I love it. I just love it, love it, love it. Thank you for, I love your enthusiasm,
[41:15] Carol Lynn Pearson: Michelle. Thank you for that.
[41:18] Michelle: And then this one, Carolyn, I think you shared a bit of yourself in one that’s called What Good Is God. And um The depths of your life journey and
[41:33] Carol Lynn Pearson: Yeah, yeah. What good is God? I do like that.
[41:38] Michelle: Come true and that, and I think that So many people can relate to the pain that this mortality is that we don’t seem to, you keep in my episode I did on Emma, I kept saying she must have thought the worst was behind her. And yet it never was. That seems to be how life is.
[42:01] Carol Lynn Pearson: Right. You know, in general, I have an optimistic framework that I live in. But boy, sometimes. Sometimes I really wonder, and I’m, I’m just confessing now. Sometimes I wonder. Why existence in the first place? What was wrong before that? What was wrong with that beautiful silence before the Big Bang?
[42:29] Michelle: Oh,
[42:31] Carol Lynn Pearson: let me, you know, here, here we are, here we are, so and, and I, you know, in my, my dark times. This comes from those.
[42:41] Michelle: Yeah, I’ve, I’ve wondered often why is pain the path to progression? Why must that be? Why did the savior have to suffer and die in order to become The Christ. Why does it seem that that and and so often one other thing I loved in this is that there are times when you are In the blackness, and God is not there. God is, I, I’m, I’m glad to have lived long enough to know God will be back. God, God’s letting me have this experience to stretch. God isn’t gone for good, but that all comes across in this poem. I think many of us can relate to. To this and I love your conclusion.
[43:37] Carol Lynn Pearson: What good is God? God the noun. Good, the adjective. A simple Ovaries them. Last night, exhausted, not from the day, but from the burdens, the perennial grief, the confusion, all of which I knew would wake me in the morning with a cold kiss. I’m not a prayer. But a question What good is God? Truly, what good is God? I listened. hoping I might hear some goodly explanation. Crickets. I had discovered that God is not a good conversationalist. So I made up this exchange. Dear God, is watching the world just spectator sport to you? Couldn’t you get a little more involved? All these prayers, God, what’s the use? So You think you have prayed for bread? And I’ve given you a stone. You could put it that way. Even if that were true, which it is not, what would your friend Jesus tell you to do about it? Do like. Like return good for evil. Love your enemies. Bless those that curse you. Uh I, I didn’t say you cursed me. Like, pray for those that mistreat you. Or give you a stone instead of bread. Pray for you, I laughed. Pray for God. If I don’t answer your prayers, you could answer mine. That’s what Jesus would say. You Pray? Without ceasing. For what? I pray that you will not give me a stone. But then you will give me bread. That you will feed my sheep. Feed my sheep. I kept waking in the night, as warm little kisses reminded me of the time after time, dear ones. Had lifted my stones. Had given me bread. Had fed This little sheep.
[46:45] Michelle: Thank you for reading that one, I think.
[46:48] Carol Lynn Pearson: Yeah, I that one moves me too.
[46:52] Michelle: Yeah, that’s. I, I, I thought it was profound, so thank you. And there are so many. I would, I have a list of about like my list of honorable mentions has probably 14 more poems on it, but for the last one, could you read the name?
[47:10] Carol Lynn Pearson: God is not a boy’s name. Is a thought more huge than a t-shirt can hold. God is not embarrassed to wear the pink of sunset, or to dress in the flowered print of hills. God does not prefer the truck to the baby doll. God has never created a boys club and put a sign up that puts girls down. God showers a blessing. On each conception showers with indiscriminate love. He blesses the Y chromosome. She blesses the X chromosome. The results are equally divine. And equally fine, though blessedly not quite the same. And sadly, stumbling through the maze of mortality. They often equally forget that. God is not a boy’s name.
[48:25] Michelle: Is that just so delightful. I love it. So I, I, I, um, a couple of, I love matriarchal blessing and our mother in the movies. I loved her insights in that and The Lost is found. Oh, there, there are just so many. There are so many that are just profound and beautiful, and so I um I hope that people will This book in particular. I, I, it’s so interesting because I thought I was, you know, tapping you about the the ghost of eternal polygamy. But then as I saw this book, it just, I mean, for so long, I have thought these things are connected. And in some ways, I think the reason that Lucifer inspired polygamy is to keep us separated from our mother, which keeps us separated from ourselves. I think it’s all tied together.
[49:18] Carol Lynn Pearson: Wow, yeah, very interesting way to put it, Michelle. Wow.
[49:23] Michelle: True though, does that strike you as true?
[49:27] Carol Lynn Pearson: Yeah, well, see, I’m not big on Lucifer. I know, I’m like I, I don’t even, I don’t even bring Satan into my thinking about, you know, this and that and the other, but, but I appreciate what you said and you know, I’m, I’m just willing to say that. That rightness feels this way and wrongness feels this way. Right, I think. So that’s, that’s it.
[49:51] Michelle: Lucifer or Satan or the adversary is what I usually say, is just a synonym for wicked. As you said, this idea is wicked, which the true identity we have of Lucifer is the father of lies. Things that are not true, separate us from God, separate us from ourselves, and separate us from one another. Things that are true do the opposite, right? And that’s how we can discern righteousness from wickedness and just straight from the father of lies.
[50:22] Carol Lynn Pearson: It just occurs to me to ask, tell me about the mother of lies.
[50:27] Michelle: There is, there is no. Interesting. Well, if you look, this is an interesting thing, but the, the book of Moses, um, chapter 5, tells us the blessing of Eve and the covenant that God put Eve and Adam under. And chapter 4 has the covenant that God warns Cain of that he would be in with Lucifer, and they are parallel covenants. Isn’t that interesting?
[50:56] Carol Lynn Pearson: Yeah, I think, I think somehow we we we do have some kind of a connection with. Um, the great abomination. Having sometimes a female uh trappings, but never mind, never mind all of that, all, you know, all of these words that we play with because they’re the words that history has handed down to us.
[51:22] Michelle: Right, and the ideas, the concepts behind it, just like the Yin and yang. The yin and yang is beautiful, right? And, uh, there’s not a good and a bad. And, and so I think that we can find the ideas, the concepts in these stories. Like, it’s interesting to me that with the story of Adam and Eve. What survived was only Adam speaking when we go to the temple, right? And Adam, but what was embedded in that couldn’t be taken out, even with all of the male hands that went through, was the fact of the story that Adam deferred to Eve. Eve was the leader in that story. She led out, she acted in rightness to in progression, and Adam said to her, I see that this must be. And that’s profound, and we can’t leave that part of the story out,
[52:15] Carol Lynn Pearson: right? And I believe that that our, our church conversation does embrace that now.
[52:22] Michelle: Yeah, but I mean, I mean, in terms of Eve as a leader, Eve as the one who presided in a way, right? If we want to use that word that I think is not appropriate to be used in family relation in marriage relationships.
[52:37] Carol Lynn Pearson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[52:39] Michelle: But anyway, is there anything I’ve left off that you would want to talk about?
[52:45] Carol Lynn Pearson: Oh, well, we could go on and on, on and on forever. Um, did you want to mention that that recent small book, The Love map? I would like people just to know about it. Have you had a chance to read it?
[52:58] Michelle: I didn’t get to read it, but I heard, I heard you talk a little bit about it. Yeah, would you go ahead? I, I love the concept of it. And so please share with us. Yes,
[53:07] Carol Lynn Pearson: yes, I want to just Um, This is the book, uh, the Love map. Saving your love relationship and incidentally saving the world. This is a little piece of fiction, but I add it is also true, and it, it takes a look at, you know, really at, at romantic love in that boy, you know, once you get into the heavy duty giving and taking of of marriage, it cannot, it’s not quite so romantic anymore. And, and this is a story of a young woman named Joanna who Boy, things that used to be so romantic, she it it’s can her marriage be saved? That it’s it’s come to that on her 3rd anniversary. She’s called on a Um, a business mission to Jerusalem by her boss at Google where she works, because she’s a mapmaker. And uh there she after an explosion in a cafe and recovery at at her her hotel room. In the middle of the night, she has a vision. And the vision is her higher self, who is there to instruct her. Joanna, you are here on a hero’s journey. You have come to find out what love really is. Can it be saved? And you are a mapmaker now. The most important map has already been made and is encoded in your body, even now. And so she, Joanna is taken on a journey, but we have, uh, from the, from our friends in the east, we have learned about the chakra system, and I only use those words 3 times because I call this development. Um, the, the kingdoms that we have to go through to get up to the godly kingdom, and a phrase, a phrase in our church that I really like is eternal progression. So Joanna is, is, is told about how, you know, the, the beginning where uh we and this this mirrors the entire history of the of civilization. That the humanity has gone through the same steps. Individuals do. A love relationship goes through these same steps. Uh first of just survival, and, and then the, the, the of, of emotion and sexuality, and then the third of the, the abdomen of power, my will over your will. And this is where Joanna learns that she is stuck. This is where humanity is stuck. We all visit the fourth, which is love, often, but we, we’re not certified citizens yet. They were, that’s where we live all the time. OK. And so the the journey is to move these 3 inches from the power of the abdomen up into the love of the heart. And, and this is the journey that everybody has to go through, whether you like it or not, we just must. And then once we are fully embodied in the 4th, then we speak with love, we see with love, we realize that we are love. And it’s a, it’s a, I think it’s a delicious story, and I’ve had a lot of people who have been telling me that they have so, so enjoyed reading this, this book. So I do, uh, I, I’d like to invite everybody who is even slightly interested to to get this little book. You can get it on Amazon or go to my website where all of the, all of my books are available to be autographed and Sent to you there. But you know, love is the destination. Jesus and every other great teacher have taught us that, and that there is a simple map to show how we get there. I, I loved writing this little book. I, I just couldn’t wait to get to the typewriter I said typewriter. Can you believe that? Get to get, get to, get to my keyboard and, and uh write and then rewrite that story. I, I, I just loved it.
[57:35] Michelle: Oh, I’m so excited to read. I know. I, I have to apologize that I didn’t. I actually just saw that this morning. I’ve been so involved in, in rereading these other books that I just missed one.
[57:48] Carol Lynn Pearson: There are billions of people who have not read this book. So don’t worry about, don’t worry about it. Just don’t, just don’t you be one of them. And all the people, all the people who are listening, don’t you be one of them either, because I promise you, I promise you this, this will keep your attention. I give you something really useful. I promise, useful.
[58:10] Michelle: What I love about it is that connection between our personal relationships and the world. Cause it, you know, like, really, that is what it is. That is, we have these ideas that we can be complete and have horrible relationships, but we’re gonna save the world and we’re gonna preach, and we’re gonna talk, you know, and it’s, it’s like, if you want to save the world, start by being the best you you can be, which will help everything immediately around you.
[58:40] Carol Lynn Pearson: So. And a few minutes ago, we, I mentioned the phrase, the tipping point. And that’s what the subtitle here means, saving your love relationship and incidentally saving the world, because Joanna is instructed that if she can save her marriage, she is called to save the world, because she is the tipping point. She is the one, the Draw on the camel’s back of fear and hatred. She is the uh the the drop that overflows the fountain. She is the tipping point, and if she can save her relationship and make love be the prominent place where they live. It it will just overflow. And and and that’s how the world is going to be saved from the bottom up. If if enough people say I am here to be a loving, peaceful person. And and if if that spreads, you know, and, and I think, wow, you know, there’s so much interesting stuff going on in the world, and we see all these catastrophes and, and we see the bad stuff and the the conflicts and the political my will over. Your will, but, but we also see these things rising. And a minute ago, we, we said, you know, the, the people in the women in Iran, the people in China who are asking for something better. Maybe we are, and, you know, I, I looked at the New York Times headline this morning, and it was about. That the the the the spreading of democracy is happening in interesting odd ways. So if if individuals can in their own lives, live in this place that Jesus called us to, and that every other great teacher has called us to, which is not the abdomen of you will do it my way, my way is the right way, but up here in the heart where your good is my good. That’s what’s gonna save the world.
[1:00:52] Michelle: I love it. And you know what? That’s the exact same thing. The tipping point that will save the world is also exactly what we’ve been talking about this whole conversation is bringing forth truth. The tipping point that will bring us into connection with the feminine divine, and that will bring us into connection with More truth in it, it starts in ourselves as more truth bubbles out from ourselves, then it starts to go beyond us, into the culture, into the world, into the church, into what we see around us. It starts with each of us. And I love that you are such a model of, I guess I want to invite everyone who gets to hear this to say, look what just this one woman has done, right? To move this along in these years, and each of us is called. And all who have the desire to thrust in their sickle, were all called to the work. And so all it is is saying, Lord, what am I here to do? And I know that that’s how we move it along. That’s what we do. Each of us just.
[1:01:54] Carol Lynn Pearson: And
[1:01:54] Michelle: it does not look the same for any of us, but it all matters.
[1:01:58] Carol Lynn Pearson: Yeah, absolutely. And, and I, I have had an unusual journey. I, I have been given an unusual platform and I’ve been given a voice and I do use it. And I, I don’t want anybody listening to feel, oh well, I can’t do any of that stuff. We are all just called to do and we’re, I, I would like to suggest that everybody is just called to be a little bit braver maybe than you have been. And if you have an impulse to say something that you think would raise the level of the conversation in the ways that we’ve been talking about. Say it, say it with kindness, say it with love, but say it. And if everyone does that becomes just slightly braver. We, we can create some real significant movement.
[1:02:54] Michelle: Yeah, yeah. And yeah, and I do think, I think that none of our journeys or callings will be the same. But for each of us, when it will bring you joy, just as Carolyn, as you describe, how you couldn’t wait to get to the typewriter how writing these poems. Brings you joy, even, you know, like, like what, what you are called to do will be delicious to your soul. And it, it will
[1:03:21] Carol Lynn Pearson: be. That’s how you can identify it.
[1:03:24] Michelle: Yes.
[1:03:24] Carol Lynn Pearson: And, and, and you have to trust your own soul. You are made of good. You are made by God. And whatever feels good to you is godly.
[1:03:35] Michelle: Right? And, and it might take, I know that I was given my callings decades before I could fully begin to do them, cause I had two different callings to do. And so sometimes there’s also a calling to be patient and to be filled with faith, because it will, all of those things will come into place in time, that it will be delicious to you, and you will be empowered and enabled to do it, and the doors will open up. And, and until that all happens, God’s still just developing you, putting you in a safe space. There’s room for everyone to Do what God is calling them to do, to be the tipping point. I love that concept.
[1:04:15] Carol Lynn Pearson: Yeah. Right, right. And one little statement that I that I make in, in, in this book is that when the when the third, which is the, the abdomen, the place of power, when that combines with the heart, when guts combines with heart. There’s nothing we cannot do.
[1:04:35] Michelle: Right, and I’ll bring in also the inspiration. We need, we need all seven chakras alive. It’s powerful. Yeah, I think it is. Carolyn, it has been just delightful to spend this time with you. I really appreciate it. Well,
[1:04:51] Carol Lynn Pearson: Michelle, I have had the best time that I’ve had in a long time. Just getting, getting to know you and your brilliant mind and your good heart. And, and I’m so happy you invited me to, to visit with your following, and I appreciate them wherever they are on all this journey. And if we just follow the path of love. That will get us where we wanna be.
[1:05:17] Michelle: Thank you so much. Thank you, everyone, and please, please familiarize yourself a little more with the work of Carolyn Pearson. It is very worthwhile. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. I want to thank you for being here with us for these important conversations, and I want to again sincerely thank Carolyn Pearson for sharing so much of her time and her talent and her brilliance and her insight with us. I I am so thankful for the legacy of work that she has contributed to our community, and I am so thankful to each of you for joining in on this difficult but very important topic that we will continue to explore going forward. So thank you for being here, and I will see you next time.
