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The Holidays are a wonderful time for families — when families feel wonderful. For those of us struggling with difficult family relationships, holidays can feel like rubbing salt in an already painful wound.
How can we best navigate family estrangement, whether it is with our adult children or with our parents and siblings? What is the purpose of families — especially when they seem to cause more pain than joy?
My best friend and I discuss the painful situations we are both struggling through in our families in a desire to provide insight, understanding, direction, hope, peace, and hopefully, greater connection.
Transcript
[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon Polygamy, where we explore the scriptural and theological case for plural marriage. As always, I recommend listening to this series from the beginning. My name is Michelle Stone, and this is episode 43, 1 of the many very painful, difficult parts. Polygamy is the division it can create in families. Um, we see this all the way back from the beginning of the church establishment and continuing on today with the Lost Boys of the FLDS or other groups or children being kicked out of their families if they don’t continue if they become apostate, right? Um, but sadly, this family estrangement is something that many of us face in this day and age, not just in polygamy. So I hoped that in this season going into the holidays, this might be a useful topic to explore since I and my dear friend are both in the same situation, dealing with family, um, relationships that sometimes have a tendency to bring more. Pain and difficulty than comfort and belonging. So for anyone who is in similar situations where there is where there are strained, difficult, damaged, or even cut off relationships and families, I hoped that this would be a useful and hopefully inspiring conversation that would at least let you know that you’re not alone. So thank you so much for joining us as we take this deep dive this week into the murky waters of family estrangement. I am here with one of my favorite people in the whole wide world. This is my dear friend Kara, who has agreed to come and um talk with me today about this incredibly important and difficult topic that I think needs to be talked about, especially here we are at the beginning of December in the middle of the holidays, and this is something that affects so many of us. So. We are going to talk about family estrangement and difficult family relationships and issues, which is something that both my best friend and I are dealing with in our lives and have been dealing with for the last couple of years, and I think that probably many, many of you are dealing with as well. So we are very hopeful we’ve been prayerful, hoping that something we say will be. Beneficial to ourselves. We’re all learning in this journey to our own families and hopefully to your hearts and your families as well, so. Let me give a quick introduction. Kara and I have been best friends for, gosh, we met when both of our 5th babies were in were brand newborns. We met at a homeschooling conference. It’s 18 years. We met 18 years ago and then I moved, we ended up moving into close proximity and saw each other at the grocery store and rekindled the old flame, and I think we’ve been best friends for about Well, it’s been about 15 years pregnant.
[03:04] Kara: See,
[03:04] Michelle: we, we measure, so Kara is the mother of 11. I’m the mother of 13, 11 living, so we measure our lives by which baby or the baby was. And so anyway, so, um, oh, is
[03:18] Kara: that it was like, yeah, yeah, like 13 years that we,
[03:22] Michelle: yeah, we’ve been, we’ve been raising our big families together and it’s been, she’s been a huge blessing in my life. It was Kara who Literally kept me alive with my 13th baby, so. This is, this is a good soul, so you all know if it can happen to her, it can happen to anyone. So she’s like one of the purest gold people I have ever known in my life. So anyway, we are going to endeavor to discuss this difficult topic we’ve Really had an interesting time together because for me, my family estrangements are with um kind of upstream with extended family, um, you know, my husband’s and my siblings and parents and with Kara, yours, she Kara has beautiful relationships upstream and has very painfully struggled with difficult relationships downstream with adult children. Do I have that right? Yeah. And so, and we’re both aware that this is a very sensitive topic because I kind of have this feeling that even though our family members will certainly not watch any other episodes that I might ever do, they may just choose to watch this one in particular. So, um, so we want to address this in helpful, productive ways that hopefully can be helpful and productive. So it’s good. Did I do OK with your introduction? Anything you wanna add? No? OK, that’s good. Excellent. So, um, as I’ve been thinking about estrangement, I’ve been, you know, every family has its, its difficulties and its things. I would say that it’s been present in my life to some degree for the last about 15 years with some members of my family and then very acute. I feel like. In 2020 in the world in general, all the divisive forces of hell were unleashed upon the earth. So I feel like it’s definitely been something that has become more acute and more aggressive for me. Um, we had other issues that led to some issues becoming extremely acutely painful starting in 2019, and that we’re still trying to navigate through. And what’s your situation?
[05:33] Kara: Yeah, 20 yeah 2020. OK. I don’t know, just young kids coming home from missions right at the beginning of the pandemic, and then all of the divisiveness and I don’t know, that kind of fed into.
[05:51] Michelle: All of it. So just because we’re gonna talk about it, I should give the clarification because it’s kind of fun that Kara and my kids really line up like she has a boy when I have a boy. She has twin boys when I have another boy. She has a girl when I have twin girls. So we all had 4, we both had 4 in diapers right there and then our 5th, both of us have a little boy. So that’s when we met. We were like, we have the same family and then we’ve mixed. Stood up a little from going on from there, but it’s so my two oldest boys are both, you’ve you’ve met them, they’re both married and living their lives, and we have really good relationships. And then my twin girls, we have, we have good relationships. We’re always working on it, of course, and with Kara, your oldest, you have a good relationship in your, it’s your twin boys that they’re both married and that has just presented some challenges. I Called Carol one day just kind of in despair like, why did God do this? Why did God invent mother-in-laws? Like, what is the purpose here? This was like there have been often times in my life where I’m like, OK, we need to talk about the design God cause I do not approve, you know, like. This was a mistake, but as we kind of um talked about it, like for me the answer I had was, it’s kind of like advanced growth level. You leveled up, mother-in-law, where you really get to implement these lessons that hopefully you’ve been learning your whole life about how to be a Christ-like person, really, and and and take a repentant, humble, seeking, loving, charitable person, right? Yeah. So that’s what we’re trying to navigate together, yeah. So first of all, can you kind of speak to, maybe this is a hard question, but I think people relate, and people who haven’t experienced this, from your perspective, can you speak to kind of this experience, the pain, the kind of the stages you’ve gone through and how it has affected you and your husband.
[07:47] Kara: You know, we, we had really good relationships with our twins all up through high school. They talked to us a lot. They would come to us with problems. They, you know, all through their missions, we were talking weekly, of course. Um, they went, they, uh, the, the change of like being able to call home happened probably 3 or 4 months into their mission, um, which would have been in 2018. And, um, so we were really close. We were really close. They came home, they wanted, you know, to continue the close relationships. So anyway, there started to be Um Just differences of opinion that were
[08:27] Michelle: hard political factors started to play because they were,
[08:31] Kara: they were exploring different ideas, yeah, than the ones that they had been previously taught and, and so some of that is a struggle as a parent. So first of all, for all intents and purposes, my twins are my oldest because my, my oldest son is kind of Asperger’s, um. And so he isn’t the one pushing the boundaries, and he isn’t the one, like, going out to explore the world and claiming his adulthood. He’s, you know, still in, in many respects, kind of like a teenager, um. And he’s very, you know, willing to help and sweet,
[09:06] Michelle: sweet,
[09:07] Kara: sweet
[09:07] Michelle: guy. So you’re from the beginning, he was like, he was the kid that made you feel like, I’m such a good mom, and then you got these twins that you’re
[09:15] Kara: like, I don’t know how to be a mom. Yeah, yep, exactly. He would, he was super obedient from a one year old. It was like, don’t touch that. He never touched it again. The twins, it was like, don’t touch that, and they’re like poking it see how many times are you really gonna do something?
[09:30] Michelle: What happens if I push it off?
[09:33] Kara: So yeah, they’ve always wanted to expand the boundaries. So it
[09:36] Michelle: was really high energy kids, fun, talented, smart, great kids that were always given like you have been so involved with their theater and their activities and finding opportunities for them. So like, like really highly invested mom and good relationships. Yeah, yeah,
[09:56] Kara: really strong. So, so I felt like I didn’t navigate very well then like um. Exploring other ideas. I think I took it a little bit as like a personal affront. I I took it too personally.
[10:10] Michelle: OK, so let’s slow down around that because as you’ve, like one of the reasons I wanted Kara to talk to me about with it. With me about this was because there is so much um information everywhere online, different forms you can go to that are so filled with things that are less than helpful. If our goal is what I think it should be, which is personal growth and progression, right? That’s the only goal we can really dig into is, OK, God, what is the purpose that I am experiencing this for? What do you want me to learn and how do you want me to grow. And, um, and it’s so easy to get on it because it feels good. It’s that little hit of they’re so wrong, they’re so bad, you should just cut them off. They don’t appreciate you from both sides, both from, because I’m talking about the sort of the child, the adult child side. That’s where we’ve struggled, and she’s from the parent side, so both of us could go and be completely validated in you’ve been wronged, they’re the problem, you deserve better, cut them off and move on with your life. And I find that to be Like there is a time you do have to go through the stages of grief. You do have to go through the awakening of, oh my goodness, this is what’s happening. This is abuse, or this is, you know, what whatever this is that can make you make sense of it, and then hopefully we can transition at some point into God, what do you want me to learn? And and I have been So, well, always just so amazed by Kara, but hearing her learn over because it has been an incredibly painful journey. I would say like tears and tears and heartbreak after heartbreak. But seeing her choose to take what she can take to own it and to choose growth has been I, I don’t know, just a model for all of us in my opinion. I’m sorry, I’m putting you on a pedestal. She’s actually a lot shorter than I am, so I had to to build a really big pedestal, but. OK, so anyway, so I kind of want you to talk about that piece, which you didn’t learn until after of what space you were in and how it affected you and made you feel when they started really kind of like, you’re like, don’t touch that. And it’s kind of like, that’s not a good idea. Don’t touch that idea. And they started to go, hey, mom. Look, look, and, and really pushing and sort of some, in some ways maybe aggressive ways or needing, you know, which, which happens. That’s because we’re all growing together. So can you talk about that space you were in because that’s really at the heart of a lot of this, I think.
[12:37] Kara: Yeah,
[12:38] Michelle: um, how did it affect you?
[12:40] Kara: So initially it’s just terrifying like Sophia, yeah, so I’m like, oh my gosh, they’re gonna adopt these ideas that I believe are wrong. And where is that gonna take them and kind of. Um, so, so, you know, with everybody, there’s times where I was reacted well and or didn’t react, you know, chose better.
[13:02] Michelle: Yes, you were less reactive,
[13:04] Kara: right? And sometimes where I was just like, that is the dumbest idea I have ever heard. And I would push back one son, the twins are very different, as all twins are, um, so I have, I twins
[13:17] Michelle: are both identical. They’re also identical and they’re very identical boys
[13:22] Kara: and, and, and I think her twins are so there’s like a dominant twin and a passive twin. And I, I mean, everybody thinks that that’s how to, but it really is. OK, so, um, so the one that’s more passive or
[13:35] Michelle: quiet, the more, the
[13:37] Kara: peacemaker, right? Like, like they also have to assert their, like, wait a second, I don’t want to always be the one not getting my way, you know, that there’s that navigation, but he is calmer a lot of times to talk to or more reasonable. Like you can have a conversation and say, OK, tell me more about that, you know, but the other twin, um. He really, really, really wants to be right. And sometimes I really, really, really want to be right too. So sometimes that is, um, like that creates conflict. And I also am a pleaser. I don’t like conflict. I don’t like confrontation. So that’s like all of those emotions are going on in me. Like, on the one hand, I know he’s wrong. On the, on the other hand, I want peace. I want to connect. Um, I,
[14:24] Michelle: I, on the other hand, you’re terrified,
[14:26] Kara: right? And I, and I’m so afraid of, you know, if you believe in these ideas, where is that going to take you? Um, so all of that is going on and being like, OK, like, you know, so probably for several months, he’s bringing this idea. Did you hear this? I’m like, well, yeah, that could be that. Maybe you need to go and find alternative sources and maybe have you considered this and You know, we had a lot of those kind of conversations, but we also had like, that’s just dumb. I’m sorry, that’s stupid. That is, that is wrong. You’re wrong.
[14:58] Michelle: And you guys know the political scene in 2020. It was intense. It still is intense, but it was absolutely
[15:03] Kara: racial stuff and um. And and I think kids right now, at least mine. Like, we’ve raised them to be compassionate and empathetic. We’ve raised them to think of other people and try to understand different perspectives and um. Just to see everybody as equal. Um, so,
[15:27] Michelle: yeah, I guess we should give just just like Kara and I have both been very, when I say conservative, I just mean like LDS, um, very libertarian leaning freedom is important, home. Schooling Mormon moms, right? And so these new ideas that would be in the like in our sides of vernacular, more in the woke side can be like this, this thing is coming and getting my children can feel very,
[15:54] Kara: yeah,
[15:55] Michelle: very fearful. Yeah,
[15:57] Kara: yeah, for sure. Um, and even, you know, I, I, I’ve always tried to take Like, look, if you’re gonna leave the church, at least know why you do stuff other than religious wise. Why is it important not to smoke? Like, we can look at science for that, you know. So make,
[16:11] Michelle: make aware
[16:13] Kara: aware, yeah, um, try to be thoughtful. So, so it was hard to like try and navigate that and so a lot of the a lot of my learning during that time was trying to OK, why is confrontation so hard for me? I, my adrenaline goes right up, my brain shuts off so I can’t even have a real conversation. I’m just like. Intensely like You’re wrong and I know it. Um, and so I don’t like that cause I’m like, well, I, I want them to think. I want them to, to learn themselves. So it’s not like I really want them to only do what I say. Um, but it’s hard to be like, oh, I’m not important and
[16:59] Michelle: I don’t get to
[17:00] Kara: you know, my opinion isn’t important. So
[17:03] Michelle: it’s also the, it’s adding to all of that being displaced as the mom happening at the same time. Yeah,
[17:10] Kara: so it’s like we’ve had this really close relationship where they cared about my opinion where I was helping them all the time, where I was helping them overcome all these challenges. Um, or walking with them through different challenges and then all of a sudden it’s like, well, we’re not gonna listen to you anymore. We already know. They see you
[17:26] Michelle: as irrelevant and dumb
[17:28] Kara: and
[17:28] Michelle: right, OK, you are. You are
[17:33] Kara: the conservative that we don’t agree with. That’s who you
[17:36] Michelle: are. And I want to say, adding to this because it’s, it’s really interesting because Karen and I have been friends for so many years and I through that time have gone through my faith journeys, and Kara is quite staunchly center. Like, I don’t think you’ve even watched an episode of my podcast,
[17:52] Kara: right?
[17:54] Michelle: So we completely disagree on even polygamy,
[17:57] Kara: right? I think she’s told me.
[17:59] Michelle: I have it. There’s so much more, but it’s OK. It’s OK. She doesn’t have to be a fan. She’s my friend. But um, but she, we’ve we’ve through the years stuck through because, you know, when you go through faith transitions, you go through all of those same experiences of ah and and anger, the stages of grief and the, you know, all of that and um. And there have been times that maybe we’ve just taken a little bit of space, but we’ve, you know, she’s always been willing to stick in even when I can see that she’s like, I don’t know what’s happening to my friends and I don’t like it, you know, and, and we completely disagree on polygamy like uh just about with so many other things, but it’s been so valuable. To be able to have this friendship that can, so I guess I guess I’m saying like I think that both of us have grown so much to be able to be friends. Like our friendship has blessed us so much and I’ve seen Kara in being challenged with ideas that are definitely that don’t resonate with her or that feel threatening, you know, I think maybe the difference is I’m not your child, so you didn’t have to have the same level of
[19:06] Kara: right. And I feel like in many ways that It was really kind of God to give me this relationship and have to navigate some of those difficult conversations and think through like taking pauses and go, OK, I, I just need to think about that
[19:20] Michelle: for a while. Kara’s not allowed to say to me, that is such a stupid idea.
[19:26] Kara: But also we agree politically and liber
[19:29] Michelle: we have we have we have a lot of things in common,
[19:32] Kara: yeah, and there’s a lot in the gospel that we totally agree on as well.
[19:36] Michelle: There’s the majority, yeah, the majority we agree on, but I would say that’s true with you and your boys too, you know, it’s just these little differences can become really big and can destroy relationships if so I am thankful that we’ve been friends because it’s also helped me as I’ve experienced so much. Rejection and hardship over different things and my like, for me, some of my family estrangement is because of my religious journey and my path and and it being having people like Karat in my life, let me know, oh, I’m not just completely unlovable and defective and dis disposable because I don’t, you know, I’m, I’m like there are people who know what I believe and still can accept and love me, right? And then And then it’s also been good for me because on the other side, there have been different levels of family estrangement, but one of the core core problems has been that I have too many children and that has been, and I’m able to be like, there are other people who are wonderful people who have big families, that doesn’t make me broken and disposable. And like, like, so for me, it’s been hard cause my family estrangement has all been in my and and of course, of course, I can look and say, I wish Had shown up different there. I wish I had known I had more tools at this point or understood what was happening better, you know. So I’m not, but, but at the same time, for me, it’s been this journey of going, the only way that I can please people or, or have good relationships if is if I don’t do what I feel God is telling me to do. So I can have at least a reasonably good relationship here if I don’t have these children that I am being so strongly inspired to have, and that’s not a choice I can make. And I think a lot of people face that in different ways, like if people are, um they’re if they’re gay and they’re in a family that can’t deal and the only way they can have a good family relationship is to live a life that is to not be true to themselves and to what they feel God is telling them. That’s, I mean, there are so many examples, so it’s interesting to see. You know, cause Kara and I have it on different sides, and of course we’re both the good ones, right? Which I’m saying that because everybody in a family estrangement feels like the other person is a problem. So we’re really trying to approach it thoughtfully to see what we could, what what we can, how we can navigate this in the most productive way because that’s all you can do is is try to do. The best thing you can do in the situation that you’re in, right? So,
[22:00] Kara: and I think for years I’ve had, I, I can’t remember where I got that idea, but It might be the bonds that make us free that I read probably 15
[22:10] Michelle: Terry Warner, the Arbinger Institute, all of their books and really good, but also has its limits because I kept trying to apply that and got myself into a worse and worse stage because sometimes you have to recognize, oh what’s happening to me isn’t OK.
[22:23] Kara: Yes, yeah, and we can totally get the idea of you only have control over you really and and looking inside and going, OK, how can I be better. How can I grow here? How can I change? So that was sort of my first thing that I came to after a little while, was like, OK, I’m actually damaging this relationship. With my son, and so I need
[22:47] Michelle: to By wanting to be right, by being filled with fear, by reacting
[22:52] Kara: right. So, so I, I can’t remember how I came to it, but my new mantra became curiosity, not confrontation. Oh,
[23:00] Michelle: that’s beautiful.
[23:01] Kara: Yeah, so that’s, that’s what my new. OK, curiosity. I can be curious about his opinion and ask questions and be thoughtful, and then maybe he’ll be curious about mine and want to come back. So, um, But about that same time that I came to that. Um, he was also starting to date a girl who, um, who at first seemed, um. She was really sweet and kind. I didn’t have any, um, specific, you know, objections. She seemed nice. um, she was really sweet.
[23:36] Michelle: Um, just had a feeling
[23:38] Kara: that, yeah, she’s, um, she, her parents were immigrants from South America and so we initially connected over Latin American culture because I served a mission in Venezuela, so she like
[23:50] Michelle: and you guys. He adopted a lot of um immigrants kind of like your dad has there are always people that he’s sponsoring in school at family dinner. Like there are a lot of family connections and a lot of love for South American people and culture,
[24:04] Kara: right? So for me that was like, oh, bonus sweet, I love this, um, speaking Spanish to her and um she made me like some Venezuelan food. She’s not, doesn’t have Venezuelan heritage, but she had a friend who was and so she got. You know, a recipe and made me something like sweet things, so there was nothing, but I had this feeling that it was that I just had a warning feeling and I didn’t really understand what it was about, and I kind of kept it quiet to myself and my son would kind of be like, oh, I need to break up with her. I need to break up with her. And we’re like, well, you should probably listen to that. Um, but tried to be very neutral about it and um And but she uh. She kind of would like, she saw a couple of interactions where we pushed back on Trev and she didn’t, um,
[24:50] Michelle: she, she was pretty aggressive in her response, pretty critical of you guys because she felt like we were being like she thought that she could voice about how you’re treating your son in a way
[25:02] Kara: that we were too aggressive or that we were abusive about that or um I don’t know. Anyway, it. I can’t remember now like when that sort of came in or when that played in, but it, her influence definitely played into um this idea that we couldn’t talk to him that it was um That we were too closed and that we weren’t safe people to talk to and um. I guess I would say that, but so, so as I’m having this like, OK, curiosity, not confrontation kind of like I’m trying to come to that at the same time. The ability to even have conversations was, was closing down like they
[25:46] Michelle: weren’t the confrontation was growing, the openness on that you were trying to grow the openness on your side while the openness was shutting down on their side,
[25:53] Kara: right? So, you know, so I, I practiced those ideas in other realms and, and I’m grateful for that. I, I think my twins actually were sent when they were sent to be sort of they’re kind of my They pushed me to learn and be better in a lot of ways.
[26:08] Michelle: So I remember, I think I remember when you started to get that answer because Kara, I’ve talked about this, you know, I said my friend had this answer because we were talking about, we were having one of our semi um uncomfortable conversations cause I was sharing my, um, I felt inspired insights on a parable that um is very out of the normal, out of the, you know, and Kara was. Kind of feeling that thing, you know, and I’ll let you share cause I thought it was so profound. I’ve always remembered the answer you got in that very moment.
[26:42] Kara: Well, a lot of the like. Um, I don’t know, defensiveness and like, like
[26:49] Michelle: kind of righteous indignation combined with how,
[26:53] Kara: like,
[26:53] Michelle: like God needs me to fix this problem.
[26:57] Kara: Yeah, or, and, and I’m always constantly praying in my mind, OK, I’m like, Father, what do you want me to do? But I also was feeling like this is ridiculous. We just need to shut this down. That’s the stupidest
[27:08] Michelle: thing
[27:09] Kara: I’ve
[27:09] Michelle: ever heard moments.
[27:11] Kara: This is totally unproductive. Why are you even pushing on this? Um, yeah, and, and so I had, I,
[27:17] Michelle: I
[27:17] Kara: remember
[27:17] Michelle: a
[27:18] Kara: lot of, yeah, defensiveness and like, OK. I think it was a combination of things it was like. She’s searching for truth. I’m searching for truth, um, and, and the Lord kind of saying. Those feelings that you’re having of anger and righteous indignation or or defensiveness, those aren’t from me.
[27:38] Michelle: Yeah, you said it was a question. Do you really think those
[27:40] Kara: feelings? Do you really think those feelings are for me? That’s accurate,
[27:44] Michelle: which is so profound because it let you go. Oh no,
[27:49] Kara: like, right, it was like, oh, that’s right. OK, I’m gonna listen. I’ll listen.
[27:54] Michelle: And so that’s the and it happened in that very conversation in the middle of the conversation. Kara was like, I just had this answer and I was willing to like like share it, share that she’d had that answer. There are actually 33 of us talking, another friend was with us as well, shared that answer and then completely changed to start in that moment being curious and asking questions and actually for me, you know, I still had a couple of pieces I hadn’t found and Carol was the one that more pieces came through in that conversation. You brought up another scripture and another interpretation that, you know, and so anyway. So, so for me that’s the kind of inspiration and seeking and humility that I think is like, I, I don’t know, I thought that that was a really important thing for both of us as well to help us go, oh, that’s like a magic key. What like what does Joseph call it a grand key, you know, like it’s like. Oh, those feelings of defensiveness aren’t from God. Good to know.
[28:53] Kara: Right? The anger and the defensiveness need to, or should be a, a warning to us that, oh, I’m not really in line with the spirit.
[29:01] Michelle: And hopefully, we can start learning that a little earlier before we have the painful separations, but Sometimes we need those experiences to help teach us because I, I really do trust while these things are so hard, they are in God’s hands. Like God is giving us these experiences,
[29:20] Kara: you know, and I think preparing us, I think, I think I’ve seen that. I’ve seen lots of things like just even in our friendships, the things that we’ve learned together or that you’ve brought, I’m like, well. This and this and this have been really important for me as a mom and facing certain things,
[29:36] Michelle: so and vice versa, yeah, like we definitely has been one of those divine like here you’re gonna have all these hard things, but I’m gonna give you this friend. Yeah, so it’s been
[29:46] Kara: really,
[29:47] Michelle: really, really important. I think 11 place that I’ve gone to, especially, you know, it just, it doesn’t go away. You’re constantly dealing with friendship, like with family. You think you can find a solution or an answer or finish it, solve it. If I just do this, it will be done, and, and the reality is it doesn’t ever just get done. Like it doesn’t ever just and it’s so hard and it’s led me to places, especially. Dealing with it again, because, you know, when you’re dealing with, when you’re dealing with in-laws, the stress that can put on your marriage like that really is the thing that’s brought my husband and I closest to not being able to keep our marriage together. It has been this additional pressure coming on from family and it’s so hard and it makes you start, like I’ve spent a lot of time going, OK, God. What is this about? What is family about? Like, what are we supposed to be learning? I, I know there’s a lot of talk about how family estrangement is new, but for me, when I was first really struggling with the acute phases of, OK, this is done. We’re like, I just thought it’s done. We’re no contact, we’re never going to be in contact with family again, we’re, you know, which was the only, the only The way I could see to have any amount of peace, not yet knowing how little peace there was if in that path, you know, but I started to really just again and again I would turn in the scriptures. The Lord was just showing me this is not a new problem. We talk about how it’s growing, but I was like, OK, Adam, family estrangement in the family of Adam and Eve. Everybody throughout scriptures leaves their family like again and again and again, I mean Lehi and then Nephi from his family, Abraham from his family, then Lot and Abraham separate. um Joseph in Egypt from his family. I, I mean even and then even Jesus like had to leave his family, they were gonna try and throw him off a cliff, right? And Like, like it happens continually, continually in the scriptures, there is this family estrangement and then I started to think about like, in some ways it’s the story of human. Progress throughout the world, like, like any humans who explored to a new place, who went somewhere new, became estranged from their family, you know, like, kind of the difference now is that it’s because of technology and communication, it has to be chosen. More than it had to be in the past. Like in the past you could choose it once and leave and it was done forever. Now it’s kind of a daily choice, but it’s really, and then, and then, you know, as I’m doing this podcast and focusing on polygamy, all of the estrangement. I mean, starting back, even anyone who joined the church and came to Zion became separated from their family. And then Emma Smith has painful family estrangement and then Continuing like into the polygamist cultures that’s in my heritage, and I think in all, you know, the um lost boys, the separations in that way, and also the just the problem of our children don’t accept our values, so do we cut them off, or my parents won’t respect my life choices, do I cut them off? And so it’s not new at all, which I found really interesting. So I’m like, OK, God, this seems to be baked into this cake of Of this mortal experience, what do you want us to do with it? And I’ll share some of the answers I’ve had over time because it’s a challenge. It’s hard and it’s, it is painful. Like, like painful. It just rips your heart apart. I think it’s painful in different ways on the different sides of it, but I will say on a child’s side, I don’t think, I know that parents can often feel like, why are they so cruel? Why don’t they care about us? Why are they doing this? You know? And I think on the child, the adult child side. I think it’s a last resort. They don’t know what else to do, and there are different levels of maturity and different levels of communication, you know, like, like I had spent a lot of time doing a lot of work, trying really hard and focusing on charity until I finally had the answer, but I was just praying for charity and could not soften my heart from this ongoing abuse. And I kept praying like, Lord, why is my heart so hard? Why can’t I have charity? And the Lord finally said, You’re praying for the wrong thing. And Which shocked me because the answer is always charity, like always, right? What else could it be? And, and I learned that actually. Um, if I had gone into charity at that point with some of the things that were kind of planned to Teach me a lesson or that I would have, um, it would have been extremely destructive to me personally and and sometimes, sometimes the answer isn’t just charity, it’s learning to, well, even just this week, navigating with Thanksgiving and and the wake and, you know, trying to like, the line between peacemaking and cowardice is fuzzy. Super fuzzy. Am I really being a peacemaker or am I just not wanting to step in there, right? And then on the other side, the line between like courage and standing up for yourselves and aggressiveness. Is it like, like, am I really humbly going? Like in a place of love, saying this is it it owning all I can to say. This is what I need. Let me know if that works for you, or am I saying, am I using a boundary to punish and to teach them a lesson and to, right? Like, like, like it feels like it really is advanced spiritual growth to navigate this hard to
[35:32] Kara: to know, yeah, because with my son as things have progressed, I’ve tried really really hard to just listen when he has come and said, you know, multiple times, this thing that you did hurt a lot.
[35:45] Michelle: And that’s hard when it’s not a two-way street at all. I, I mean, it’s hard. I love that you can hear, you know, and
[35:51] Kara: I, and so I, I, you’re right, I’m sorry, that was really hard and I was wrong.
[35:56] Michelle: I’m really sorry that I hurt you.
[35:58] Kara: Yeah, which, um, but it keeps coming back again and again, the same thing, and
[36:03] Michelle: so you can’t apologize for the same thing 20 times,
[36:07] Kara: right, so I have to realize there’s like, oh there some of this is his responsibility. It’s not just. Me, um, it’s not just me apologizing, that’s not actually gonna solve it, cause I’ve done that, and my husband’s done that, and we’ve done that over and over, and he keeps bringing back the same thing. So figuring out how to be like, OK, what is it now? Yes, have you can, you know, from my perspective, this is how this is and this is why this is hard. I’ve tried to be very open. With him about this is, you know, listening and hearing him, but also open about, you know, what this, this is how that came across to me and this is why this is hard and this is what I’m personally working on and struggling with. And so please, I’m trying to say, please give me space and grace as well and trust that I, I am trying to grow. I am trying to. Become a better person. Yeah,
[37:05] Michelle: and what’s so interesting about that, because from my perspective, there is no ability to have a conversation to say, hey, could we do this differently or hey, that was hurtful, that there’s, that is not at all a possibility. It will be met with. Well, I, I did try one time in in a like I got to a place of peace and love and kindness and tried to have a conversation and. One of the responses was, you have a problem with me. If you knew what we all think of you, our relationship would be destroyed forever. That was part of the response. And so, so having zero ability to even hope for any degree of communication or acknowledgement or even apology. And having it be just a continuation of and and if certain things aren’t happening, it’s because the situation isn’t there anymore. It’s not because there’s been any. Progress and, and then the wounds that are because, you know, I was going through personal tragedies at the time that the abuse was most intense and I, so trying to go, OK, how do I Um, in a place of charity. Have my own back because I have also learned, you know, like it’s hard. My um my husband isn’t able to have my back in this situation. I think because he has learned that it’s futile, you can’t talk, you can’t express anything, you can’t, so it leaves me very much alone and having to figure out and I don’t like confrontation and I don’t, and it’s not my, you know, like the way your daughter-in-law has approached you is shocking to me when I can’t even. Even say, hey, this hurt, can we talk about it?
[38:54] Kara: Yeah, well, I mean, and that’s the same actually, um. With my daughter-in-law, um, like before she became a daughter-in-law, my hus my son was saying, I think I’m gonna ask her to, to marry me and I was, had had, like I said, this kind of warning feeling which had You know, it still at this time, I, I, I try to remember how long they had been dating, maybe 4 or 5 months, maybe even. I, you know, I don’t know, it’s all fuzzy, but, but still at that point, there was only minor things that I was like a little bit uncomfortable with there. There had been a few more things that were like. That could be really hard. That’s kind of a red flag, um. That had happened, but I still was like really hesitant to share that I was having this warning feeling. And finally, when he started talking about, I’m gonna ask her to marry me, I said, OK, I need to tell you this. Um, because, you know, maybe this is something you need to know, maybe this would be a huge mistake, and I can spare you some pain. Um, I’m having, I’ve had this for a long time. Please don’t tell her because she’ll misunderstand. Um, I, um, and I was very frank, that I have no, I don’t really have a reason why I can’t. She seems very nice and friendly, and I’m not really, I don’t really know, but I know I’m having this feeling. I’m having a morning feeling. And if it’s, if it’s It goes both ways. If it’s not right for you, it’s not right for her. Like, it would be a blessing to both of you. If this is a warning from the spirit, then there’s something here for for both of you. It’s not. Just for my son, it’s for her as well, and um, and I shared that with him, and he was really upset and like. Emotional and and of course he told her and pretty much since then she’s won’t. That really talked to me.
[40:45] Michelle: So she has the validation. My story is my mother-in-law didn’t want my son my husband to marry me, which is hard. Yeah,
[40:54] Kara: yeah, yeah. So she totally sees it as I didn’t approve of her. She, I think, um, from things that have been said, I think part of that is she thinks that It’s that I don’t like that she’s Latina
[41:07] Michelle: in the ideology, it’s easy to turn everything into racism, which, which I, I, I mean, I know it’s not the case, you know, but from her perspective, I’m feeling rejected and it must be because I’m marrying into a white family. So that’s become her reality that she sees.
[41:25] Kara: Yeah, and so kind of like with your mother-in-law where there feels like there’s not, you can’t actually have a conversation and resolve it, like right from the get-go when he told me that he’d told her and that, you know, that’s why she was all of a sudden really cold and, you know, she was upset and whatever. I said, well, let’s talk about it. Let’s sit down, let’s have a conversation, you know, I’ll reassure her that it has nothing to do with her and kind of give back, you know, like, and he was like, no, she doesn’t like confrontation, so we can have a conversation. And I was like, oh, OK. So there was no ability for me to try to repair anything and um and even trying to uh like my usual. Like response in difficult relationships or hard things. It’s just to pray to see somebody as Christ sees them, to be able to res reflect His love. Um, but it was really different with, with her. She wouldn’t ever look me in the eyes. Um, she would stay in her phone and get, you know,
[42:28] Michelle: maybe I got to the place where you couldn’t even be in your, like, like it was kind of aggressive mistreatment to where, like, if they, you’d want them to come over on a holiday, but if they did, you would have to go in the other room because of how How you felt being treated like that by your children, right? Like, like it got painful.
[42:48] Kara: Yeah, yeah,
[42:49] Michelle: and that was, I know we’re on the other side of that, like there’s been a lot of progress, but I want to acknowledge that it was hard because she,
[42:54] Kara: there it was very confusing and strange to me that there could be no um conversation. We tried multiple times to to. Fix it, to, to reach out to be like, let’s talk, let’s go to dinner. We even took them to dinner for their, um, I think it might have been shortly after this, um. We took them to dinner with their wife with, well, my other son was already married and so the 4 of them for their birthday, for the twins’ birthday. We took them out to dinner and it was. Like we’re all having a conversation and she’s in her phone and trying to like engage. So what about you? What’s your favorite food? And she’d maybe give a one word answer, maybe say yes, but the whole time she was just looking at her phone. She wasn’t interacting. And my husband was like, this is ridiculous. OK, we’re done. And
[43:50] Michelle: because it was kind of aggressive, like it’s aggressive, you’re not worth my aggressive disdain. Like she, she’s still punishing you. I I want about or she was, you know, I
[43:59] Kara: I don’t know. I don’t, I think probably from her perspective, she thinks that she’s protecting herself.
[44:07] Michelle: Yes, OK, OK, that’s that’s good to see, but see that’s the line between like that fuzzy line between setting up a boundary and being. Aggressive and punishing, which I, I think it’s
[44:21] Kara: hard with somebody that’s not willing to come and say, hey, this is hard, like,
[44:25] Michelle: yeah, because what you can do to protect yourself is communicate, right, which you’re really open to. So we both have this, it’s, that’s why it’s so interesting because we both have this situation on different sides that we’ve looked at each other just going, what’s happening here? Like what’s happening and um. Um, one thing I wanted to back up around, so my mom told me, I’m the youngest of 9 and um my mom learned, and I, I don’t know the sit this um specifics, so, but it was obviously a hard lesson. She learned and told me as a teenager, like, never tell your child something about their spouse because they’ll come to you where they’re struggling and they want your support, they want to talk about your spouse and you’ll either agree with something or say that’s really hard or say this is something I see that’s a concern. And then they go make up and they tell them, and then the spouse never can see you as other, you know, you don’t have the the foundation of relationship to get over things like that as easily. Right, so my mom, so a lot of parents have to work through that. It’s a challenge. Like, like I said, in lying, right? It’s like, OK, this is like, I know I just checked off that last piano piece I got get, but seriously, this is like a concerto that I’m not ready for yet, you know, I always use the analogy of like progression like you check off one piece, you just get a harder one, you know. But so looking back. If you could, and, and it’s not, you know, I just am curious to see, can you see what you might have done differently cause you were having that feeling, do you think it was just for you? Would you have talked to your son sooner? Would you have not talked to him? That’s a hard one. When you’re as a mom, you feel like it’s your responsibility to try to protect and help your child with the spirit and you don’t know,
[46:07] Kara: you don’t know am I, is this just for me? Am I supposed to share this? I think you expressed that to him, yeah, and it was really, really hard. I think where I’m at right now and maybe the Lord will teach me something different. I don’t know, but I feel like there was a time when I should have said something when he was saying. I need to break up with her. I need to break up with her. I should have said, I agree the spirit told me this. OK,
[46:33] Michelle: so maybe a
[46:33] Kara: time so that I could have reinforced what he was feeling rather than bringing it later when he’d moved on to another.
[46:41] Michelle: OK, so you, that’s you, so you think expressing it wasn’t necessarily the mistake, but maybe the timing, but, and, and at the same time second guessing doesn’t do us any good. It’s just Trying to help give perspective or advice to other
[46:54] Kara: well, and we have more children. So I’m like, I can at least, you know, there I think there’s a fine line between beating yourself up and judging your past self and also being willing to learn from your past. And so I’m, I’m trying to be like, OK, I know I can’t change what I did. I know I was, I know I was trying to follow the spirit. I know I was trying to be prayerful and Trying to make the right decision. So I don’t fault myself for what I did do because I, I was trying to navigate it the best I could, and I was being prayerful and doing everything I could. Um, but I also want to learn from it. If it, if the situation occurs again, what can I learn? Yeah, it, how could I maybe do this better right if it happens again? Could I do something differently?
[47:40] Michelle: That’s what, yeah, I think it’s so valuable to learn from both our successes and our our challenges
[47:47] Kara: our attitude sort of helps. Process it and and heal from it if you can be like, OK, what can I learn? What can I do for me? Probably one of the hardest things is kind of what you were talking about like not being able to do something to fix it, like the person that you’re having the hard interaction with won’t talk to you, won’t.
[48:05] Michelle: Or at least won’t be, but it’s a little different, won’t be open at all to any kind of actual conversation about anything like we we just have to pretend everything is fine and
[48:16] Kara: yours is a little different
[48:16] Michelle: yeah, probably a little bit,
[48:21] Kara: but um. I can’t remember what
[48:23] Michelle: I was we were just talking about learning from mistakes,
[48:27] Kara: right? It gives me, it gives me a sense of control because I feel out of control. I don’t have any control over the situation, but if I can go, what can I learn? What can I work on, what can I improve, then at least I have control over me
[48:41] Michelle: and I have something that I can do,
[48:44] Kara: yeah, that makes me feel like, OK, that’s OK. Then this, this has a purpose and this is going to be, um, what’s that scripture. Um
[48:54] Michelle: I’ll work together to get the experience for that, yeah, this is how Karen and I talk this is why we’re we’re both.
[49:02] Kara: Yeah,
[49:03] Michelle: we both live this way, work together for good, but one thing you brought up the younger children, so I want to discuss, I want to move into talking about the sort of ripple effects the way. that this like it’s hard because like one thing I, one thing you’ve struggled with is all of your children kind of having separation from their siblings that they love, you know, and want to be around and their new sisters-in-law. And one thing I’ve experienced is trying to go, OK, how do I, on the one hand protect and shield my children, but on the other hand, Not like, like trying to navigate, OK, it’s not OK for me to be treated this way, but when there’s no ability to improve things, what options do I have without just like taking my children’s family away from them? And how much does that matter? and like that’s hard and I think it can also go into your children that are strangers don’t have children yet. You’re not a grandma yet. But that can be hard too if you’re in either situation. Like for me, it’s my own children with their Grandparents, you know, or aunts and uncles on my, on my other side, we have, we have situations on both sides, both my side and my husband’s side, you know, very different and um and then on the other, not, not with my mom, she’s my, you know, my gay daughter say Nas’s a ballers, but they like my mom is, is something else, she’s great, but Um, but there’s hard things with some of my siblings and then hard things on the other side, and navigating that with the children. So I’m in, I’m not in the situation of the grandparents saying I want a relationship with my grandchildren, but I’m in the situation going, I would love my children to have a relationship with their grandparents, but how can we? How can I facilitate that without? You know, I was sacrificing myself or am I supposed to sacrifice myself and does it what matters and what it like it’s so hard cause when it comes down to it, the children are the innocent victims and all of this, and they’re the ones we really care about, right? And that’s where, that’s, I mean, there are a million places where this is so painful and so hard. But um do you have any thoughts on on how you’ve worked through that?
[51:22] Kara: Well, I mean, it’s definitely different from your situation. Maybe, maybe we kind of, I don’t know, we, I haven’t talked to most of my kids very much about, especially the younger ones. I had some conversations with the With the twin, um. And his experience with my daughter-in-law, um, the twin of the one that’s married to her, um, you know, like, so I’ve had some conversations with that, but then even that he’s like, I don’t want to talk about it anymore because I don’t wanna, I don’t want to be in between anything. I’m like, OK. Um, uh, and, and then the, the daughter that’s just younger than them, I’ve conversed a little bit, but it’s hard because I’m like, I don’t want to be bad mouthing. I don’t want to be like,
[52:08] Michelle: how to even talk about it, right, without,
[52:11] Kara: you know, and I, and I don’t want to be, you know, I don’t. I don’t want to create an issue. That isn’t there, but also wanting to. Protect them from some of the behaviors that I believe are destructive,
[52:24] Michelle: and especially when there is an intent to influence, there sometimes feels like unintentional on your side like mom and dad do this wrong or they’re wrong on this to your younger children, which is really a hard part of it.
[52:40] Kara: Yeah. Yeah. And the, the son that’s just younger as well that idolizes the twins in that relationship and, and The difficulty of, OK, well, all I can do is try to teach my perspective and teach them how to think and show um. I’ve felt like one big thing is showing the joy of the gospel. Of living the joy of the gospel and how that brings joy and peace so that. I hope they can see the difference. They can see what it looks like to live the gospel, to try to be with Christ, and that if they get to that, you know, heaven, hopefully they don’t, but if anybody gets to that, um, Prodigal son place where they’re living with the pigs, you know, they’ll down in the mire, they’ll look back and they’ll remember, oh, OK, I can see my parents and the joy that they have and they follow Christ.
[53:45] Michelle: That’s OK. And and for me it’s different because For me, it’s not um church or gospel issues. I’m probably considered a little more the prodigal because I have these crazy ideas, you know, but for me, so for me, these people are solidly in the church, which is part of my struggle. With the churches, because, like, so when you say the joy of the gospel to me, it’s like the application of Christ-like principles in our lives is how I, how I translate that, which I know is what you mean. Like these things we’re talking about about like being very emotionally mature, taking as much honest stock as you can of the situation going, what could I have done differently? How could I have showed up differently because I’ve spent so much time doing that, but you don’t necessarily have the opportunity or the ability. To like, like with one thing that I did apologize for that I learned pretty quick and my husband had tried to warn me that. Oh, all that does is throw red meat to the sharks. Like that’s not safe to genuinely and honestly say I wish I had done this differently, and then it just becomes this. Even you admit that you’re the problem and you know, and, and so it’s like you expect, I like how I work, I expect, OK, if I make the first step and it comes from a place of open heart that can open other hearts and and when you learn that that’s not how everybody works, that can be shocking. And so painful and difficult and then learning to go through it again. I mean learning what to do next and I did, I want to share one thing because I did. I’ve spent so much time in prayer over this, and it also like I said, was during like the acute division happened when I was pregnant with my 12th because that was like unacceptable. Oh well, and and and actually it got to be really hard like I was being so mistreated from my perspective and And I couldn’t go to my children’s activities because I would be mistreated at my children’s activities because some of them, they were coming to, like, like it got to be where like this was not a bearable situation, you know, and I was struggling anyway, and then, and then what we went through after and and just the things that have happened have been like. Like really, really, really hard, you know, and so I did at one time feel like the only solution after it was when I was being led to how everyone in the scriptures had family estrangement and left their families, and I really thought, OK, Lord, that’s That’s the answer. That’s what you’re telling, you know, I, I felt, I, I prayed a lot like is this what you’re telling me to do? And that’s not natural. I don’t think it’s natural to anyone, certainly not natural to me. I’m such a people person having troubled relationships really, really is hard for me like I’m totally relationship work. Oriented in my whole personality and everything, yeah, so, so you know, some like, like, I think our husbands are both like, who cares? Why do you care so much? And we’re both like, I’m torn to pieces. I haven’t slept at nights, you know, like, and so, so it’s just a different way of functioning, but um, but I did, I was led also to Where the savior gives the counsel of shake the dirt off your feet, which I never had liked that scripture, you know, like if, like, he’s talking to them when they’re going to share the gospel, and if you go to a town and they won’t receive you, then shake the dust off your feet and leave. And, and I always had taken that as kind of like cursing them. Like it’s a sign, like to curse them, you know. And what I what the Lord like helped me see, which was so good for me, was like, if you have tried and you know. That you have maybe not been perfect, cause who is, but also like I learned, I would always beat myself up if I had done it differently till you finally learned, oh, there is no right way to do it because The goal on my side is to have honest communication. The goal on that side is to find something to twist out of context and twist out of meaning and take offense to so that you can again attack. Like it took me a while to learn, oh, we’re just operating in a really different way. I don’t know what to do with that, you know. And so, so the Lord was kind of like, shake the dust off your feet, which to me meant like, Let it all go. Let it all go. Like shit, don’t even let a little bit of the dust of the offense and the pain stay on you and you are free to walk away. And, and, and, and, and, and I really learned that like, like there’s for me the the lessons that there have sometimes been I know there was an inside article years ago about how God’s love is not unconditional, which I’m like, really we’re gonna choose that to. Like who gets to decide who God loves and who God doesn’t love, you know, so that’s one that has never worked for me, but I, I believe God’s love is absolutely unconditional and it’s also exists within boundaries, and I really learned if I’m not being actively abused. Then I am free to love because I’m not having to feel defensive and hurt and you know, if, if I step away where that abuse can’t occur anymore, I can shake the I can shake all of it off, not let any of it continue to affect me, not carry any carry any of it forward. And go on in peace loving them from afar because I’m not being abused. Like, so I think like it taught me that there absolutely is unconditional love and it only can exist with my husband hates the word boundaries because he feels like it’s, you know, but yeah, yeah, well, yeah, but, but I feel like it can only exist, it can only exist with um without abuse, like, like I love you unconditionally. While I’m not being hurt by, you know, like that’s, and I think that’s the pattern God sets. God loves us unconditionally, and there are boundaries that, you know, there are boundaries of what commandments are. That’s right. And if we believe in being able to come into the presence of God, and you know, it’s based on certain growth patterns that we exhibit in our lives, right? And
[59:48] Kara: so for me, every blessing is predicated upon a lot. Yes,
[59:52] Michelle: yeah, paraphrasing, you know, you know,
[59:55] Kara: right.
[59:56] Michelle: And so it’s in the doctor of Covenant. I can’t tell you what section right now, but um 0 132. That’s a 132,
[1:00:04] Kara: yes.
[1:00:05] Michelle: So everything comes back to polygamy. I’ve said that before. A lot of 132 has good stuff, just some of it’s not good. Anyway, that was really funny. Anyway, the point I learned was the importance of, and so many people already know this, but the importance of genuine, and I’ll use the word boundaries, not in the overused aggressive way, but of genuinely going. Someone has to have my back. Some like, like I spend so much time going. Am I being petty? Is this something that really, that I could just not worry about? Is this something that needs to be discussed, you know, and then when you come to that place, it’s just so hard to constantly have to get the answers. Like I’ve spent so much time on the phone with My oldest sister, who I have a great relationship with, or Kara or like trying to work through in my mind what’s really bothering me, what are my possible options, what, you know, because often when I’m praying about it, I’ll have the thought you need to call Kara or you need to call Diane or you, you know, and so I will because I need support to talk me through to find out what really is there so I can get to a place of genuine humility and love and and recognizing, OK, this is What is the best thing I can do, and then I can do it, hopefully in the best way, willing to go the consequences me. I can’t predict how anyone will. Take this, you know, like, like I think that hard work of really a lot of introspection is if both sides were doing that, we wouldn’t have family divisions. It’s hard because, right, often neither side is, right? But the hard thing is knowing that even when you’re doing it the very best you can, it doesn’t necessarily solve things, right? So I guess that’s like, like if the answer is no contact, which for me for a while it was, and I Like I, well, that’s another thing I’ve learned is that answers aren’t necessarily permanent, you know, you might like, like I, I need to cut off my family, and maybe, maybe you do, you know, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that will always be the best answer or, OK, I’m going to stay committed to my family and, and that’s great. And then there may be a time that you, you know, like
[1:02:19] Kara: it’s the scripts would be a great example,
[1:02:23] Michelle: right? It’s easier to make decisions when they don’t have to be permanent. Yeah.
[1:02:27] Kara: Yeah, just for right now.
[1:02:29] Michelle: What’s the best thing I can do that will create the most good for the most people without completely sacrificing myself, which, you know, and there there was a time when I was actively told to sacrifice myself that Like you remember that.
[1:02:45] Kara: Yeah, and it’s interesting because I’d kind of forgotten. I mean, you should tell because I actually had the same answer later.
[1:02:51] Michelle: Oh, did you? It was really hard. It was actually a really, really, really, really hard week and the things that happened at the same time, but I was just told I had a profound experience where I was, it’s hard to share these things cause, you know, for me there. But I was shown, it was just it was so I was pregnant with my 13th, and in that dark place, and we just learned about my son’s suicide attempt that actually happened the same night, and um we’ll talk about that at some point, but I was just shown like the savior on the cross, and all of a sudden I was looking through his eyes watching the nails go in and I was just told, let them nail you to a cross. And that was the answer I was given that the previous answer that I had been in for quite a while was that shake the dust off your feet, like you can love them from afar. And, and for me that was also, I should also say part of that was honoring your parents like and we honoring like I can honor a big part of the problem with family, I think is that we want to change people. And, and it takes so much time and so much pain to get through that because we want to change them. We want them to show up the way we want them to show up, right? And that’s the same thing I learned about like the savior bleeding from every pore in the Garden of Gethsemane. Suffering is when we are fighting against reality, when we are saying, God, I don’t like how this is, I want it to be different. And that’s where the worst suffering is. It, there’s definitely a grieving process of going, OK, this is what it is. This is what I’m being asked to, this is my life. I have to accept that, and I can honor my parents by saying this is where you are, and I will honor that. I will let you be where you are without insisting that you change, right? And, and accept that and then make my choices. That I feel the best about, you know, and so that was at one time told and I. Did things that like I went while I was pregnant with my 13th to both families and it about killed me. It was awful actually, you know, and I don’t know why I had that answer, but I did it and, you know, and I, I guess part of me was hoping, OK, if I make the first step, it will, it didn’t do that at all, you know, it was completely hard. And, and that, and then I struggled because I was like, OK, the savior let them nail him to a cross, but then he got to leave. He didn’t have to keep, and I know I’m using the like I don’t want to have anyone, you know, but that was the imagery I was given and I struggled because they got to leave and I had to sit and go through all of this with all of it still acute and make constantly having it come back up every single holiday, every single, you know, and then. The complication and the need to like again and again work through and go, OK, what am I feeling? What are my options? What’s the best thing like it’s just hard. It’s so hard
[1:05:52] Kara: that. Yeah, and that was like more than a year ago when that happened. So I’d kind of forgotten about it. But recently, I would say in the last few months when I, when some of the things became more intense with my son and daughter-in-law, that, um, I was like, what, what am I supposed to do here? Like, Is there a boundary? What, you know, what, what am I supposed to do? And, um, similar words came to my mind just like sacrifice yourself. Oh, that’s so and, and, and same kind of like just, you know, let them nail you to the cross. And then it was later, a few weeks later, I’m like, oh, Michelle had that same answer. And so I don’t know.
[1:06:33] Michelle: I do want to talk about it a little bit. Did you have something else you want to say first about it? Um,
[1:06:38] Kara: I, I. I would, I would say that um. I think it came from, like, I’d been reading the bonds that make us free some really hard things that happened. I’m like, OK, what’s my role? What am I supposed to do? How can I change? How can I do this better? What do you want me to learn? And so I, I remembered the bonds that make us free. And so I was reading that and also introspecting on, OK, what are the limitations? Right? Because some of this, I’m like.
[1:07:05] Michelle: If you’re being abused or if you’re like, like, right,
[1:07:08] Kara: like, I mean there’s so much valuable stuff like self-deception,
[1:07:12] Michelle: yeah,
[1:07:13] Kara: like being able to see, you know, self-deception is where we all kind of want to um
[1:07:18] Michelle: Everybody’s the protagonist in their own story. Everyone’s the good guy,
[1:07:22] Kara: always. We’re the one, you know, somebody else’s, you want to frame other people’s. Uh what stuff other people’s actions from a place of. Of they’re doing this to me or or you you want to see it as a justification for how you feel. So you find the things that they’re doing that justify how you already feel like hurt, angry.
[1:07:48] Michelle: Like, like, like when I would try to communicate something and instead of hearing what I was trying to communicate, taking one little part of it so that they could take offense and attack back,
[1:07:58] Kara: right, right, so you want to see it in yourself, you can also see it, OK. It also helps you to to have charity it can anyway, where you go, OK, they’re operating from a place of self-deception. Clearly they see, they want to see what I did through this lens and so you can kind of say, oh.
[1:08:14] Michelle: OK, well, because I have this story about this person, so everything I see, I bring that story onto it and it like, like an example that maybe my audience will appreciate but not my friend is like if we already have the story that Joseph Smith was a polygamist. Then every single thing we see, we see through that lens and the things that don’t, that don’t support the story we have, we pay less attention to, we ignore, and everything that does say that show us that we um you know, we accentuate and pay more attention to we really do create our reality like a lot of this. I spent so much time with um. Byron Kay’s the work, you know, and learning to love what is because really we do to a large degree create our own reality based on the stories that we have and what we focus on to validate those stories, and that’s an amazing thing to understand.
[1:09:06] Kara: Yeah, yeah, and that’s a true principle because you can see that you start looking for that everywhere. That’s all
[1:09:11] Michelle: over. Well, I think of um Doctor Nico 121, Joseph Smith in Carthage jail where he was suffering. Oh God, where art thou and this is happening and this is happening and then The paradigm shift of what we were just saying it’s when like all these things shall be for thy good and it’s not this bad yet and and look at what I’m doing and so that paradigm shift that God can give us new eyes. That’s why it’s so valuable to do what we both always do. God, help me to see this person through your eyes cause the really awful stinky, horrible reality is that no matter what that person is doing to me, and no matter how awful I think they are. God loves them and that sometimes is like an actual painful reality. This person who was doing this. Is loved by God. Yeah, which is so unfair, you know, and so if I want to be like God. Then I need to love them. And that’s all hard when things are so hard, you know, but that’s the reality. Of of where our hearts need to be to have, like, I guess, I guess the part of what I wanted to talk about cause we’re both fresh in the middle of this, but it’s not like 10 steps to overcoming family estrangement. It’s kind of like, what is the purpose of it? And really the purpose is personal growth, right? So how can we, how can we take this difficult thing and use it. Like, get all the good out of it, just like all these things will give the experience to be for the good. That’s if we utilize it in those ways to help us become. Better people through those painful experiences.
[1:10:54] Kara: Well, one of the things that was really um helpful for me is, is when you’re dealing with these things, sometimes you’re like, why doesn’t, why doesn’t this work? Why don’t my, my usual things work
[1:11:09] Michelle: to solve this problem? Why is this so difficult and so inexplicably
[1:11:14] Kara: doesn’t make sense, you know, because like I said, I was willing right from the beginning. Let’s just sit down and talk. solve the problem.
[1:11:21] Michelle: Same. Like, why, why doesn’t it work to say, oh, if I’m kind, there will be kindness returned.
[1:11:26] Kara: Why is it, why can’t we just have a conversation and resolve the problems and listen to each other and respectfully disagree or, or, you know, say, oh, just have an opportunity to apologize if that’s necessary, like,
[1:11:41] Michelle: yeah, like, and so what was your what was your thought about it though like.
[1:11:47] Kara: Well, I started to realize that I wasn’t dealing with a normal situation, that it wasn’t just, it wasn’t, I wasn’t dealing with somebody mentally healthy.
[1:11:57] Michelle: OK, so, OK, so bringing mental illness into the conversation, or I would say personality disorders because that’s the, oh, the category, but anyway, I’m not remembering all the specifics from the DSM-5, but I think this is an interesting place to take the conversation because so personality disorders like narcissism,
[1:12:19] Kara: borderline personality disorder,
[1:12:21] Michelle: psychopathy and sociopathy, there’s I think there’s one more, but um. That’s an interesting place to take the conversation because I think that it’s a double-edged sword. Because on the one hand, like, like, will you share when, when you were able to start seeing, oh, there’s some of this going on potentially with some borderline, then what, how did that affect you? You were able to, well,
[1:12:48] Kara: it helped me to put things in perspective and realize a couple of things like I don’t have to make sense of this. It’s not gonna make sense because this person is likely dealing with something that doesn’t make sense. And it also helped me, um. It helped me in a way have hope like, OK, if that’s what this is, then hopefully at some point. This person will realize that they need help and they’ll get the help that they need and, and maybe there will be healing. But if not, at least I understand the context that I am dealing with that it’s not going to make sense, that there’s not really anything I can do other than actually have kind boundaries, you know, acknowledge, I, I hear you. I understand that you’re feeling that, and I, that would be really hard. I’m so sorry. Um, this is what, this is the truth. This is how I actually feel, you know, was speaking to like, if you’re being. If they’re saying, you’re doing this, this and this, and yelling at you, and accusing you of a whole bunch of stuff, you can acknowledge their hard feelings, you can acknowledge, I, I, I’m sure that’s really hard. That would be really, you know, that you’re feeling this, this is really valid for you. The reality is, I don’t feel that way. I am not saying this. I don’t see you in that way, um,
[1:14:12] Michelle: but I see how hard that would be. I like, I like the butts to sandwich, what do you
[1:14:17] Kara: call
[1:14:17] Michelle: it a crap sandwich, like you say the hard thing in the middle in between the butts,
[1:14:21] Kara: right? So there are tools that you can go find, but one of them is being able to acknowledge. Um, what they’re feeling, but also speak the truth and um the reality, and then you let
[1:14:34] Michelle: them. So for you being able to say, oh, borderline now, now, borderline personality order fits gave you additional. Sources of both compassion and tools,
[1:14:48] Kara: right?
[1:14:48] Michelle: OK. And, and so for me, I see it’s so, it’s so tricky because it’s so easy for everyone to label like every difficult parent or every parent is a narcissist and every child is Whatever,
[1:15:03] Kara: yeah, not really,
[1:15:04] Michelle: but,
[1:15:05] Kara: and even if, even I’m like, even if this isn’t actually what it is, like I’m not a psychologist, I diagnosed, right, but I can see
[1:15:15] Michelle: patterns. I can see what I was gonna say,
[1:15:18] Kara: these are at least this kind of behavior and maybe they’re rooted, maybe she has PTSD, maybe I know she’s got mental health issues, so, so maybe it’s that and this is how it’s manifesting or whatever, but at least having
[1:15:32] Michelle: It gives you a it so, so I think the combination of on the one hand, just like with boundaries, we can use them aggressively and punishing or we can do them in love as a godly gesture of this is how this relationship can be preserved or at least be the best it maybe can be, right? And I think that understanding mental health issues, you can also use them to label and to call someone wrong and effect. And or because for me it’s an excuse to like yeah or whatever right like you don’t deserve, but you also can use them to make sense. Like for me when I started learning about narcissism, which I hadn’t, we all know the word, right, but actually doing the deep dive study that I started in 2019 when it came into my space as a, the first thing I actually heard was about the black sheep and the golden child, and I was like, oh, and then started studying I was like, Oh, and of course nothing fits, and of course you can’t label someone or diagnose someone ever, but what you can do is give yourself a framework to begin to have some level of understanding. That’s what it did for me is go. Oh, things kind of make sense a little bit now after 25 years of marriage, or, you know, like, I can that
[1:16:49] Kara: gives you a little bit of a context of what you what you’re doing and what will and won’t be helpful,
[1:16:53] Michelle: right, right. It gives you some additional tools and there is, and that’s another tricky one is the compassion because on the one hand, We can always explain away behavior or say, well they this and it’s like, yes, that may be true, and also they are doing this so it doesn’t excuse, it doesn’t excuse it, but it can help me have help me have more predictability and more um.
[1:17:21] Kara: Well, and recognize that your usual, that’s why your usual things aren’t going to work.
[1:17:26] Michelle: That’s why you can’t, you can’t navigate this with any sense. You, that’s why you, when you’re dealing with someone who can’t show up in a healthy way, you have to become triply healthy, like you have to grow exponentially so that you can do all the healthy showing up in the interactions, which is really hard,
[1:17:44] Kara: right? And in and in some way, you know, like learning. Holding them accountable or stating truth um is actually what will create the
[1:17:54] Michelle: peace in that in that situation because it’s very different with the different might be dealing
[1:18:00] Kara: with, right, but in some way it’s not like it’s not there’s a difference between, oh, that’s what this is, so I can excuse everything they’re doing and I’m just gonna have to take it, take it, take it, um, which maybe there are times like we both have those answers to just, yeah, just take it. Um, but it can also be loving, and you may be told to, you know, you need to stand firm on this and speak what is truth.
[1:18:23] Michelle: Right, that fine line of, of needing the inspiration all the time. There are a couple of things I wanted to share because with that answer we had of like sacrifice, allow yourself to be let them nail you to a cross, you know, like that was hard for me and took me through a whole series of like, like when I was trying to Understand how I could possibly be asked to do that, and, you know, with the situations that I was dealing with. And, and for a while, I was like, so are you telling me that like, basically Jesus is the doormat of all eternity? Do do like, like that’s how it felt, like I was asked to Follow Jesus’s example of being a complete doormat and letting them do whatever they wanted to me with no, you know, and, and that, that I was actually there for a little for at least a couple of days going, how so, OK, so Jesus is like the world’s doormat. OK, that’s great, you know, but um I I’m sure we were talking during this. I had to though. Go, oh my gosh, no, not at all. Jesus is the most empowered being in all of eternity because he had the ability to, he did it. He willingly said, I can see the value of doing this, so I am willing to do it. I am willing to submit myself to this abuse for this purpose that I am choosing, which meant that Jesus is like the most empowered. Humble being in eternity, not there’s a difference between being a doormat. And being empowered and inspired and going, Hey God, I’m trusting you, you know, and I am willing to do this. And so I was actually thankful to have been given that opportunity at a time, even though it was so incredibly difficult. So
[1:20:20] Kara: would you say that the difference between doormat and empowered is basically your choice?
[1:20:26] Michelle: It is. It’s it’s how you, it’s, it might be exactly the same actions, but it’s how you’re looking at it. If Jesus were looking at it going. They’re nailing me to a cross, and I’m letting them and feeling like a victim. Are you feeling like a victim or are you feeling like you are with your eyes open, willingly make and making an empowered choice for a greater purpose, I think is the difference that I would love like, Oh yes, absolutely,
[1:20:54] Kara: like from the savior he you when you start to really get at like, oh. He was completely motivated because he loved us and he, that for me, that changes it cause I think when we. Take on a victim. We take on the doormat. We aren’t feeling love outwards. We’re not feeling, yeah, we’re we’re not motivated by the
[1:21:17] Michelle: it can be tricky because again I think the hardest thing in all of this is the lying to ourselves or the being honest with ourselves, doing that hard work of really finding the truth because I think as a victim, you can think you’re motivated by motivated by love, but I think that the savior. Followed like the savior loved himself and loved God and loved his fellow man and all of that was coming in to the equation, right? Because I think in the moment that I was asked to do it, I could do it for the love of God. Not necessarily for the love of the people at that time cause I was too. I was too small. I was too wounded. I was, I was, I was really suffering at that time and too many other things happening like I was too hurt in too many areas, you know, but ideally I think that if I can have all three of like where, cause that’s where the doormat is. If I’m just saying like for their sake, I will, you know, that martyr or that victim thing is completely different than God is asking me to do this and I trust God. And I know that if God is asking me to do something this awful and incomprehensible, it’s because. God knows I’m capable of it, knows it will serve me well. And you know, like sometimes being asked by the God to do something that impossible, but that, I guess, following the pattern of Jesus in a way is it it did give the Lord opportunity to teach me more about the nature of the atonement and of Jesus Christ and to let me like, like now I kind of like I did that and that was hard. And that doesn’t feel awful, you know, it’s more. So it is if we are going into, I think like you said, with trust and love and our eyes open and empowerment rather than victimization.
[1:23:13] Kara: Yeah, I, for me, one of the things that I likened it to was remembering my first home birth with my 5th. It was really, really, really hard.
[1:23:21] Michelle: She was, she was a home birth instructor from her first, so she had, yeah,
[1:23:26] Kara: but I, it was a really, really hard birth like it’s really hard and I had, I had had built up. This idea of oh, home birth is gonna be this beautiful. Amazing everything, you know,
[1:23:41] Michelle: and I had and then your first was an emergency C-section, your second was twins and another C-section, right? OK, in the hospital anyway, so your 5th was your first home birth and you had all these expectations. Yeah, and then
[1:23:55] Kara: it was really, really hard. So like it was a lot of processing and I think, I think there’s just analogies there. So about two weeks later, I’m holding this baby and I’m looking at him and I’m thinking about all the things that were so hard about the birth and I’m like. Just felt this overwhelming love and holding this baby and going, but I love him. If someone walked in right now and threatened to torture me or they were going to harm my baby, I would go through all of it for him. And that connection of that kind of love puts you in a place where you can.
[1:24:28] Michelle: That’s beautiful.
[1:24:29] Kara: You can go through hard things because.
[1:24:34] Michelle: So it is love is so empowering too. It is, it empowers you to do the impossible and it can be any and all of those things, the love of God, the love of the your filament and the love of yourself in that genuine. I am a worthy beloved daughter of God and I. deserve to be treated as such in a godly, you know, you can always say I deserve, but you, you know what, like, like I won’t accept. I, I will put up a boundary rather than just always taking it if that’s what I feel inspired to do. But then understanding that like, yeah, giving birth to a child might seem like the most victimized, like you can cry forever about what happened to you, right? Or you can feel so empowered that you did that thing. So genuinely loving God, loving whoever it is you’re sacrificing for and loving yourself is like the magic combination. And if only one, some of those parts are there at a time, you know, but The more we can have of all of that, the more we can act in genuine. Like, in truth, right, and not, and yeah, I do think it is so important to always strive to be empowered rather than victimized because also, anytime that you need to be the martyr or the victim. You automatically require that other people be the villain,
[1:25:57] Kara: right?
[1:25:57] Michelle: And, and that always will come across, like I, OK, I will sacrifice myself, will always put out there, you’re the bad guy and I’m the victim.
[1:26:07] Kara: I think bonds that make us free really like. Gets that across for me or the what’s the anatomy of Peace like where you’re really coming from, what you’re truly is, it’s going to come across no matter what you do. Like you can be acting, loving and charitable, but you’re Your place of being the victim or the martyr is going to be.
[1:26:31] Michelle: That’s what that’s what you’ll communicate no matter what. So a lot of times it’s like, I did all of this for you. It’s like, no, what you really did for me was put this on me and make me the bad guy. And so don’t do anything nice for me because all it does is make me more, feel more awful, right? It is so it’s so hard and I think that’s where it’s so important to find truth, to get to truth like we were saying, and I think So for me, there are some key points that are kind of telltale signs of whether you’re in truth, because if you really do that stillness, that prayerful pondering of God, like what can you teach me here? What do you want me to do or how do you want me to see this, you know? And I think that the adversary tries to get in there and our habits, and so anything that comes in that’s a voice that makes you feel. Shamed or diminished or like really like, like, well actually because when God speaks to you, it’s just clear. Sometimes with like a bit of a like it you probably will have a broken heart and a contrite spirit of like, oh I see what I wish, but that’s actually a blessed state to be in as we talked about in the last episode, like to be in a place of Openness to repentance is exactly where God wants us to be and it’s often exactly where we need to be to be able to hopefully improve those relationships if we’re, you know, depending on which side of it you’re on, and, you know, they’re so complicated, but I think that it’s good to pay attention to. Does this give me like some clear information with some hope going forward? Like you said, I can apply this going forward and it helps me, or does it just make me feel wrong and bad, which really you might be getting true information, but then the lies that we are subject to by the adversary starts to make us go, Well, I just will never talk again, or I’ll never do anything again, or You know, can twist it into a darker place. So really,
[1:28:22] Kara: yeah,
[1:28:23] Michelle: or yeah, or you can immediately turn it into also, well, if they hadn’t and go back into the blame, like really I think shame, blame and fear because it’s acting out of fear often that creates the problem. And then it’s acting out of shame and blame that exacerbates and continues the problem so often. If we could get rid of those things, we would be living in Zion. And so, and so that’s one principle right. There you go. Let’s do that. Good, good. Um yeah. Another thing that I think is important is like really be careful of what things you try to talk out, right? Because we are on the two ends of that where I don’t have the opportunity to talk out anything, which is really hard because that automatically stunts relationships when I have Tried and then been really burned like when I’ve reached out in the past and formed what I thought were better connections and then had. You know, like I, I have very little trust to try to reach out anymore and no ability to talk about things, right? You’re in the other situation where no matter how many times you genuinely say I can see that I hurt you and I’m really sorry. It doesn’t help because it just keeps coming. And so I think the best we can do is have that openness to really without defensiveness, hear what we’re being told. But then at the same time really be careful about what we have to give voice to. If it’s something that I can work out with God, I don’t have to bring it up with that other person and because it’s always going to be difficult. Yes, we love the Tevye principle. Do you want to tell them what that is?
[1:30:01] Kara: Sure. So in the musical, um, Fiddler on the Roof, Tevye, when he’s with his wife Golda
[1:30:08] Michelle: and. naggy but yeah,
[1:30:11] Kara: kind of domineering a little bit. She’ll be like, you need to do this and this and this and this and give him her list and give her
[1:30:17] Michelle: the she always this that
[1:30:19] Kara: she’s kind of critical and he’ll be like, yes, Golda, yes,
[1:30:23] Michelle: yes,
[1:30:23] Kara: and just kind of being the peacemaker and kind of just like, yep, that’s fine. And then he goes to his barn taking care of the cow and the horses, and then he’s like. God, why did you give me this? And he kind of pours his heart out to God and the problems, but with her, he’s just kind and loving. So he takes the problems to the Lord and lets the Lord
[1:30:42] Michelle: your love to the and your problems to God is a really good and and if if she would have done that too, you know, like, like, and and at the same time there are times that you need to have the courage and the In love and kindness to discuss a problem, but hopefully we can often rely on the Tevye principle and ask God
[1:31:03] Kara: because it can become overwhelming in a relationship to always be like, and you need to fix this, right?
[1:31:08] Michelle: This is wrong and you need to be a completely different person than who you are, right? And and
[1:31:12] Kara: and it makes us focus too on the faults rather than on the good of the Yeah, so you have to find that. Maybe
[1:31:21] Michelle: that’s a good rule. Oh, I’m trying to think if I could apply that, but kind of a 5 to 1, like for every 5 kind, positive things you can say to that person, you can bring up one challenge, that might be a good rule of thumb, hard. I’m just throwing that out there because it was a thought, you know, yeah, that might be a good thing to apply in these principles. I know as moms, it’s so easy for us to think it’s our job to fix our kids and we keep You know, but I’ve tried to think even as they’re, cause sometimes we think we do that when they’re young and then we have to stop with their adults. I actually think more and more the less I do of that when they’re young. Like, like trusting them to make their own decisions as much as possible. And I might say like, well, if you wear that, I think that this, you know, these could be some of the outcomes, but you can choose, you know, like if you wear, you know, if you insist on to church or yeah, or in the snow, you might have this experience. But you know, I think empowering them instead of controlling them as much as possible sets us up to have better relationships because they learn from the they learn from younger ages. My mom trusts me and that, and you’re really setting it up all those years, what kind of relationship. And I also think there’s a principle also as parenting when I’ve looked back at it, of like not being scared of your kids, not feeling like I want them to love me, so I, that’s that’s another side we can er that can really set it up to where. They don’t give us, yeah, they don’t give us the respect and they do think that any level like us coming to them with, hey, this is hard for me, can they talk about this? That’s it. The relationship’s over because we haven’t set up that back and forth.
[1:33:00] Kara: Right. I think one way to put it, and this is another thing that I’m, I’m grateful for this situation because it’s forced me to kind of rethink and go back and, OK, where am I, have I gotten too lax or how can I improve going forward with my other kids and one of them was kind of Retraining myself from thinking I need to. I, I don’t know if the word be the peacemaker or I became too passive with my, my kids because I wanted just only loving feelings and I don’t like the conflict. And so if there’s a conflict and I have to give too much corrections, then I’d be like. OK, just do what you want, you know, and that becomes that’s not really serving them and so like re-evaluating going, OK, my job is to teach. So every correction is a teaching connecting moment, not I need to stop, excuse me. Stop thinking of myself as, you know, I’ve got to be the disciplinarian and I need to, or if I’m, if I’m disciplining or correcting, then I, then I have to be angry or I have to be um. I lost the word. Um, controlling, right,
[1:34:16] Michelle: so the authoritarian and the permissive are the two extremes where we want these principles we’re talking about about boundaries given in love. Apply from the very beginning. Like, like if we can learn those when our, when we have toddlers only, then we can just continue on and because what’s hard is we can look back and go, I mean, who would have thought you can err on the side of too loving, you know, like we never, we never were taught that. Like it was always like, oh, I don’t want to yell at my children and I don’t want to nag my children and I, you know, but you can also err on the side of I’m not being enough, I’m not giving them enough boundaries and I’m not. Demanding enough respect from them. And when I say demand, I’m not, you will, but I mean like I expect to be treated with respect and uh-huh and so that’s, yeah, so finding that line, the earlier we can do that, the better chance we can give ourselves of having it
[1:35:10] Kara: really helped me to start to see myself and go, oh, I’m avoiding teaching them. I’m avoiding discipline because I don’t like the feelings of conflict and anger. And so I avoid it and just give them what they want a lot of time.
[1:35:24] Michelle: Which what you’re doing there is like the more you ignore the dragon, right, you’re just making the problem bigger and bigger because you’re not handling it in the small ways.
[1:35:33] Kara: And so like realizing, oh, for me I had to reframe it in my mind of When I give a correction, that’s loving. I’m teaching them. My role is to teach them. This isn’t their, they need to learn the correct behavior, and that’s loving to teach them the correct behavior. And then that also, in turn, creates that atmosphere of I can trust and respect my mom because she’s gonna teach me how to, to do things correctly. And what is expected that
[1:36:02] Michelle: her and her giving me a boundary doesn’t mean our relationship is taking a hit. It it’s like, you know, they’re not, they’re not so easily, they’re not quite so fragile, right, yeah,
[1:36:12] Kara: you know, one of the things that we’re working on is learning how to have disagreements, but do it in an appropriate way, right, you know, like. I feel this way, can we do it this way rather than
[1:36:23] Michelle: uh. And so it’s good. So I think the important thing is no matter how late in the game we’re learning these things, implementing them always is is better than not, you know, like because again the goal is our personal growth and development, not it’s not about changing anyone else or even about changing the circumstances like, like as hard as an estrangement is. It might just be the reality you’re dealing with and you are learning about that because I like, like that was um hard for me to realize they’re like, like I lost my children in a different way than estrangement and the reality is overwhelming that there’s no fixing it. And so the best you can do is go forward in the best way you can in the reality you’re living in and and you know, and so. Um, so I think that that goes for estrangement too. If I can go forward in the best way I can in this reality, I have the that that gives me the most, the most value for the pain I’m experiencing. And also, this can’t be the goal, but truly that is the best shot there is of there being any repair at any point, because like, like with my family situation, I’m trying to go around when I need to, you know, like for my husband, but it’s, it’s extremely difficult because there can’t be any repair. When nothing can be, you know, and so if there were striving and growth on that side that that maybe there is, and I’m not aware of it, but I haven’t been aware of any of it, it would sure make it easier.
[1:38:04] Kara: Like the ideal situation is if both are equally trying to seek that
[1:38:10] Michelle: or even trying just on whatever, it doesn’t even have to be equal if they’re just trying,
[1:38:15] Kara: but if they’re both. Have the idea that this is about growth and development and and recognizing that we each have a part to play and and being introspective of our own role instead of putting it all like we get the blame victim mentality if we’re blaming everything on them so. I don’t for me that’s empowering because it gives me, oh, I have control over me, how I how I show up,
[1:38:41] Michelle: right? You have complete control over what matters most, which is my personal growth and whatever comes, I’m getting, I am growing. Yeah, no, but it is, but it’s it’s we’ve leveled up, right? It’s leveled up. It’s the gospel. 8.0, not even 2.0, yeah. And so I do want to talk about also another principle that, um, you know, you’ve heard me talk about the Samuel the Lamanite principle because I did have one time where it was actually when I was expecting my 11th and I was going through a little bit of an identity crisis of like, who needs 11 children? I don’t want anyone to know, you know, like, like for some, I mean there have been other times when I was just so happy to be, but at this time I was like really struggling and feeling embarrassed and yeah, mhm. And um, which I mean my 11th is just like. He’s cute. And so it’s so sad that I felt like that, but I really did. And um and I had to go to a family function by myself. My husband was out of town and I had to go by myself and they were going to find out I was pregnant. Well, you know, I was probably 5 or 6 months like and hadn’t, you know, I couldn’t hide it and, and I just was sobbing the whole way there like, God, you have to help, or I’m turning this car around. I cannot do this. And, you know, cause I wouldn’t even have my husband there to like take some of the blows, so I didn’t have to, you know. And I totally had this experience of the Lord just pouring out on me. Like it was that one of those experiences where you see the conduit of light come down and go from the top of your head. I’ve had that a couple of times and The Lord just was like, look at how much joy you have. Look how happy you are to be having this baby and how much joy this child is going to bring to your family. And I’ve been so concerned about what I imagined other people must be thinking, because I have taken a lot of abuse. It’s not like I know we live in Utah County and we’re Mormon moms, but big families aren’t always very. Welcome. Yeah, so, so, you know, I had reason to feel so self-conscious, but the like the Lord showed me that I had just been imagining what I thought people were thinking instead of thinking, worrying about what I was feeling and how I, you know, how the Lord was blessing me and this and this joy like. Just expanded and formed this bubble that was like this force field and there’s another part of that answer. The second part of that answer was, look, look how much joy this baby will bring you, and the next one will bring you just as much joy. It was in that moment of my identity crisis about my 11th that I was told I was that there was a 12th. And so, but it was amazing because I was just like that knowledge and understanding just came if I dwelt in this joy. Then none of the arrows could hit me. They would all just deflect and and maybe go back and, you know, and I did. I was able to go in this place of complete joy where I was just. Smiling and glowing and didn’t get my feelings hurt at all and actually was like, yeah, and we’re having another one, you know, like and um and so I really think that that like for me the next time I read Samuel the you know the story of Samuel the Lamanite, how he was on the wall of Zarahemla, and they, they were throwing stones and shooting arrows and they couldn’t hit him and I’m like, oh my gosh, that is exactly what that was when you are so Filled with the spirit and your own purpose and your own peace with where you are, then it can’t hit you, and that my goal, my desire is to be there all the time because then I don’t even need the same. Um, like boundaries or protect my, you know, but the sad reality is it’s a spiritual gift that I can’t just manufacture and be all the time, but it has shown me where, where my heart is, where I want to be, and what one possibility is, right? That, that I can be in this place and, and along with that, I think. When you’re struggling with family estrangement because it’s so it’s so demoralizing, what is wrong with me? I’m, I mean that rejection really can eat at your sense of worth and and so one thing that I have found to be incredibly valuable is to Dive into, like, like let the Lord inspire you into what things you are here to do and the more you are, the better you feel about your own life and your own path and what you’re doing, the more that that’s that bubble of I am doing what God wants me to do. And you know, that’s where I finally got peace where I was so, what is wrong with me? Why can I not have relationships with, you know, and I finally was like, oh. Well, I said, I already said, but in order for these people to not have a problem with me, I would have to do this that would go against what the Lord has told me in order for these people. It’s like there were 3 different things that that I was being rejected about and um. And I, I have to do what God, what I feel inspired to do. So there was nothing I could do. And so when I finally was like, oh, I am standing in what I feel God wants me to do, so that’s on them, their judgment’s on them, not on me, you know. And so that is a principle of like the more you can be whole and at peace yourself, the less. The more you can be in the Samuel the Lamanite principle. So that’s another direction to take this for that personal growth is like, God, what am I here to do? What do you like for me, I know this might sound silly, but for so many years when I was having babies, I knew there were things that the Lord had for me to do and to use my voice and to write and to speak. And so this podcast has been, but, you know, I, I didn’t think it would be about polygamy. But that’s what it is for now. But this podcast has given me so much of that principle where I’m like, this is bringing me. Joy and the ability to serve God in ways that feel um delicious to my soul, hard but really satisfying, so I’m less vulnerable to the judgments and accusations and cruelties that might come my way.
[1:44:39] Kara: Yeah, for me it’s similar. It’s the um Just knowing that I’m right with God. So I think that that introspection comes in. And like, if I am humbly going to the Lord and repenting and trying to go, OK, what, how am I am I contributing here? Help me see maybe a blind spot or am I in self-deception, show me where, how can I be right with God and know that I’m humbly repenting and striving to be who he wants me to be, then Then I can trust that, you know, being misunderstood or misjudged or looked at. As the villain or whatever that is on them, because I know I’m doing what is right and I can answer to God and he can take care of.
[1:45:26] Michelle: Yes. And again, see, even as you’re saying, I’m hearing how it can be twisted like the adversary is so tricky. Like, doesn’t matter what you say because I know I’m right. can be so tricky. So it’s not even like I know exactly what you’re saying and I exactly what I’m saying, but, but again, All of these things can be twisted into a very unhelpful direction. Yes, yes, a radical commitment to being truly honest with ourselves in a place of humility and a broken heart and a contrite spirit and
[1:46:00] Kara: like where I can learn or or. But you have to hold the savior’s hand at doing that, because otherwise you’re getting, you can get Satan’s voices in there either telling you to, you know, amplify the pride or amplify the shame, which either way, that’s not, that’s not
[1:46:19] Michelle: growing. It takes visualizing. Yes, yes. So the savior gives like we get a tribute bit of information and then it can be immediately deformed in either direction. Yeah. This is why this is so good for us, right? It’s such a great opportunity, like welcome to mortality. So, um, so yeah, I think we’ve talked about just about everything I wanted. So there is one other thing that I do want to share and um it’s kind of the Lot’s wife principle. I shared my some of my thoughts on Lot’s wife I think episode 17. I’ll I’ll, or at least I put the links to some of the things I’ve written, but One, for those who missed it, for me, she’s one of my scripture heroes. I think she is a remarkably beautiful, profound story or the story of her, but one of the principles I learned from her is that in the place of a loving parent, we never cut off. We never stop loving and praying and having our heart wide open with as little judgment as possible, right? We may, there may be times that there’s a boundary, like if your child is maybe dealing with drugs and stealing or, you know, or very abusive or, you know, like, like there are definite boundaries, but there’s never that punishing cut off. There’s never that. You’re not, you’re not part of our family anymore, or we won’t accept you, who you are and like truly honoring your child to accept them where they are and who they like that unconditional love that might need to include some boundaries in order to keep it alive, you know, but I think that ideally as children, hopefully we don’t cut off either, but I think we’re less empowered on that side of it. Like I think children might sometimes be like, I don’t know what else to do. You know, and, and parents might too, but my hope is that parents can be like we really are the ones that are being, we’re the more mature ones. We are the ones that are asked to be in the position of heavenly parents, you know,
[1:48:26] Kara: maybe it’s maybe that’s the principle is like where is your heart. And are your boundaries motivated? Like, I do think God has boundaries.
[1:48:36] Michelle: Well, think of the third part of the hosts of heaven that he allowed them to make their choice, and I’m sure he loved them and was brokenhearted as they made their choice to separate themselves from his divine family.
[1:48:46] Kara: There’s that throughout, you know, no unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of heaven, so we have to. Like there’s rules
[1:48:55] Michelle: or even just natural. If you step off that cliff, gravity is cruel, you know, you know, like, like there are natural consequences
[1:49:03] Kara: are just and and we can see that that’s a true principle. So, so that empowers a parent who realizes that that you can be completely loving. And have rules and have like. Yes, I love you. And like God would want all of us to come home to him, but he has the rule, no unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of heaven. So even though he wants that and his love is there, that’s still the rule. And so we have to, um,
[1:49:31] Michelle: so it’s just the earlier that we can start implementing this again, like, like. You little darling, tantruming child who’s beating up your siblings, you know, like, like I’m really frustrated with you right now. You’re not acting in a way that you can be around our family right now, you know, I love you and the second you want to change it all, I’m like never punish our kids for that. When I say punish, I mean emotionally like, well you acted that way, like that’s so hurtful. So, so if we always are. Like, like the God just says my hand has reached out still. My hand is reached like, like there’s never, um, you’ve never messed up so bad that God isn’t right there in the moment of repentance, and I hope that that’s how we can be both with our parents and our children, but in particular, as, as parents, if that’s, you know, that’s what we can hopefully. Yeah. Hopefully stay in that space as acknowledging that there are these stages of grief, like we really have to grieve these relationships and these and our sense of like, like for you, I think for both of us, we’ve put so much of our sense of identity into being a really good mom. I’m sure that was brutal to have to go, my kids don’t think I’m a really good mom.
[1:50:46] Kara: Yeah, yeah, well, and and to. To have had a really close relationship and a really healthy relationship, um. Well, I mean, obviously we’re not perfect parents. I’ve already talked about how, you know, I, it, it was easy for me to go into passive and sometimes passive aggressive. I’m not saying I was perfect or couldn’t learn, but
[1:51:09] Michelle: Which right there is so beautiful because parents, we need to be able to say I wasn’t perfect and but not in the way of, well, I wasn’t perfect. I did the best I could like really own and accept the pain you might have caused.
[1:51:22] Kara: I know yeah. I erred too much on that of like listening to their input and allowing them to say, Well, I know you want that to be the rule, but because of this and this and this, I want to do this and this and respecting that and letting them make choices. And, and they knew they could come to us and we, we had a, you know. We listen to them deal with really hard things all throughout, you know, even their, even in their missions and um. Uh, so I know. I know one thing we were not abusive. I know that. So to be called out and said that we’re abusive or that they can’t talk because we’re not safe and like. And to, to, to own those things and say, OK, yeah, I, you’re right, I made that mistake. I’m really sorry about that, but to have it keep being thrown in your face again and again and feeling like, oh, there’s like
[1:52:20] Michelle: that doesn’t make sense.
[1:52:21] Kara: This is this, this could be this way. I could be a really awesome mother-in-law who had a great relationship with you because I really genuinely care. And I have a great relationship with my sons, and we can, we can all be part of that. And then to have it be like, Twisted to being. No, you’re terrible and vilified and
[1:52:44] Michelle: racist and racist. You’re the opposite of that,
[1:52:47] Kara: not just I’m not. So I just disagree with saying if you are white and part of the system, then you’re racist and I just, I think that’s racist. So
[1:52:59] Michelle: it’s hard. It’s hard.
[1:53:01] Kara: So anyway, all of those things were really, really. Traumatic, really hard to be to feel like this just doesn’t make any sense because this is how it could be. You’re, you literally told me I can’t even try.
[1:53:16] Michelle: Right, right. And I think in the same way,
[1:53:22] Kara: feeling like you can’t,
[1:53:23] Michelle: yeah, because you don’t try when you’re like the lose lose and and I’ve kind of felt the same thing like, like my whole. Life has been dedicated to motherhood, and I feel like I’m a good mom. I, I’m a good mom, you know, and to be condemned for my motherhood and not have that scene at all, but just be condemned that I’m. Like, no, yeah, and no awareness of like that that us having no children doesn’t affect any like there’s never been a request for money or help or babysitting or like, like none of that has ever happened. What does it affect anybody? How, you know, it’s been hard to
[1:54:00] Kara: understand,
[1:54:04] Michelle: right, ideally, I mean, yeah, maybe it’s a little more crowded if we come over, but you know, that my solution was, OK, well I guess we can solve that problem and Not come over. I, I mean, yeah, it’s been hard to navigate these judgments and and the different expectations. There are just so many hard things. So I think at the heart of it, like the message I’m getting out of this conversation is that personal growth is the purpose and the goal and the only thing that we have any control over and like the Lord doesn’t put us here to be victimized, to be miserable, to be, you know, the Lord puts us here to grow. And to learn and to become more like God. So if we walk hand in hand with God, willing to have that broken heart and contrite spirit, because what that really means is repentance and these personality disorders or the problem there is there’s just no ability to repent because when you can’t ever acknowledge or, you know, so if I’m at least if, if we at least can get the benefit we can, then we hope because there is always hope for growth and
[1:55:08] Kara: Right, it, it becomes easier to trust them to the Lord.
[1:55:12] Michelle: Yes,
[1:55:13] Kara: right, because you can, you can remove some of the emotions and the feelings of hurt and at least take those to the Lord and ask for His help there. But recognizing that the healing of your heart and the comforting isn’t necessarily going to be connected with resolving the situation,
[1:55:28] Michelle: right, right, than I can get my little girls back. I don’t, it’s not that’s not necessarily what you have power over. What you have power over is what can I gain
[1:55:43] Kara: from this and then you can trust that he will take them on their journey back to him as well.
[1:55:48] Michelle: Yeah, and, and so in closing, I think also the heart of it is like, I think we’re both good people. Like we have good hearts, we’re striving and we’re both in this situation, right? And so I think anyone else that’s in this situation, I, I part of the reason I wanted to do this, say you’re not alone and you know. Like, I don’t like when I say we see you, it just means we see you. We’re here, we get it. There are a lot of us, I think the more, like I’ve always talked about, fear, shame and blame, and the shame that can come in this, the shame that I think we, you have to wade through of like, because of the rejection and that, you know, to be able to let that go and go and and just instead have the satisfaction of I’m seeking growth and And so anyway, so I, I guess in this holiday season, holidays can be hard because it’s supposed to be this beautiful picture of family and when family causes more pain than joy, it’s hard. And so, um, so I’m hoping that this was somehow helpful to any of you. I, I really do want our families to know that. Our desire is not to blame and not to have division and, you know, I’m sure it’s hard on their ends too. And, you know, our like, I, you know, I think I speak for both of us when we both have a heart full of love and a desire to understand, we’ve had to work through hard, difficult things and we’re still both in the middle of it. Like we’re not coming to you on the other side going, here’s the happy ending wrapped up in a package with a bow. It’s, it’s the full messiness, but I would say that both of us. have grown immensely, and in some ways, this has helped spur on my learning and my progression in ways I could not have accomplished other ways, like in some ways, my Family has been the greatest gift to me. And in in the most difficult ways. I, I don’t, I don’t mean my, you know, I, when I say my family, but I mean these particular family situations. And
[1:57:56] Kara: so, yeah, I think it’s one of the ways that. I think we would miss a lot of learning and growth if we were to stay in the place of. Victimhood or blaming or murder, you miss out on a lot of
[1:58:10] Michelle: you get all the pain and none of the.
[1:58:16] Kara: Part, um, that makes the, the trial worthwhile that is the sanctification that you go through the, the growth that makes it
[1:58:26] Michelle: gives a, uh, yeah, and so, so that’s the best we’ve got. Walk with God, do the hard work of being honest and, you know, it’s all good. It’s all good. So anyway, thank you for sticking around with us for this long conversation and I’m so excited to have the opportunity to introduce you to my friend and I do wish all of us a peaceful, happy. Joy filled or growth filled or maybe both the holiday season. So thank you for joining us, we’ll see you next time.
