41: The Atonement of Jesus Christ (and Defending a Sister) |132 Problems: Revisiting Mormon Polygamy

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Does The Book of Mormon preach a gospel of works or a gospel of grace? (The answer is critically important for would-be disciples of Christ.)
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And do we want a church where there is room for people who disagree? Or should people say, “My way or the highway,” to one another?
This one is long, but perhaps the most important of all.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Welcome to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon Polygamy, where we explore the scriptural and theological case for plural marriage. My name is Michelle Stone, and this is episode 41, which is a bit of a departure from our regular content. I have been watching quite an aggressive. of attack against another sister in the church, and I have felt impressed that I need to respond. I also have felt even more strongly impressed to take this opportunity to discuss the gospel of Jesus Christ and the atonement of Jesus Christ as I have come to understand them. So I hope that you will find this episode inspiring and useful, and if so, I hope that you will share it because I think these are extremely important messages for the members of our church today to truly consider and Move forward with a better understanding of the atonement if possible. So thank you for joining us as we take a deep dive today into the atonement and the gospel of Jesus Christ. I’m feeling the need to explain why I’m doing this episode. So earlier this month, a crazy conglomeration of circumstances all came together to make me aware of what is currently happening with some young men really intensely going after Doctor. Julie Hanks, who is, um, the, um, Julie D Azevedo Hanks, the daughter of Lex Di Azevedo. She was the original Julie and Saturday’s Warrior for those of you who, who are familiar with that. And, um, she has become a mental health professional and has a large following in the LDS community and I think does a lot of good. I’ve never been. Um, and, uh, uh, a follower of a follower of hers, but I have, of course, seen different things that she has done. And I think she’s doing an doing important work. So while I would have stayed out of this, I want to try to explain why I am, to some extent, getting involved. And what I See happening. First of all, the extremely unpleasant way this guy is going after her just, is just so, so distasteful to me. I feel like he is attempting to, well, threaten her church membership and church activity and definitely trying to Um, paint her as an apostate to minimize the reach and the influence that she can have, and I think that that’s really sad. I’m trying to give him the benefit of the doubt that he is. That he has positive motivations, because to me, it looks quite a bit like he’s trying to connect himself to Julie Hanks in a critical way in order to ride her coattails to greater relevance. So I’m trying to ignore that, but I do get that energy a little bit. But, um, the, the weird connections that involved me in this is that his best buddy who was involved with him in going after Julia Hanks recently, um, became connected to me. We’re actually relatives, and he kind of used that relation to sort of buddy up to me in that really nice way while he’s kind of doing the same thing and sticking a dagger in my back is how it felt to me. It’s definitely been far less aggressive and less public.

[00:03:31] And, um, you know, but it, it just made me feel icky. And, and that’s what I feel like is happening here. And You know, at the same time that this relative was doing that, there was also another effort, a motivated effort to try to do the same thing to me that is being done to Julie Hanks, to try to remove me from being able to have the blessings of church membership and activity, and to try to paint me as an apostate. I suppose, to try to limit any potential reach or influence I can have. And it just makes me sad. It’s a hard thing to have to deal with. I’m incredibly grateful for loving good, excellent church leaders. And, um, but I’m also really Really aware of this energy and that’s kind of what I want to address. So those are some of the weird connections that happened. I had no intention of getting involved or certainly making an episode about it for a variety of reasons. First of all, this isn’t strictly speaking a polygamy topic, and that’s the point of this podcast. So I’m hoping that it won’t bore or, um, you know, alienate any of my Audience, and they wouldn’t find it interesting. Second of all, I don’t like focusing or getting involved in yucky things, right? Who needs that energy in their space? I also tend to believe that what you focus on grows, and I didn’t want to give any additional focus or attention into this thing that I really don’t like that these guys are doing. So I didn’t want to Get involved in a controversy that’s not mine, or give it extra attention. But on the other hand, um, I think Julie Hanks is worth defending. I think her message is important, and many of the people that she speaks to are people who are genuinely struggling with, with painful things that are part of our culture. And she and her ideas are worth defending. I think that she shares a lot of truth. And even more than that, The misinterpretation and misapplication of the gospel that I think is motivating and energizing these attacks. I, I think it is not good for us as individuals or as a church, as a people at all. It is divisive, it is hurtful. It causes people to leave the church. It creates more distance, division, and pain in families and in communities, and I just, I don’t think it’s the direction we want to go. It’s also just so unlikable and off-putting. It, many members and struggling members don’t like this energy, and certainly investigators don’t. And those who have left the church, this just gives them all the validation they need of, wow, if that’s who, that’s who Mormons are, they can keep the church, right? I, I just think it’s the exact opposite of what we want to be doing.

[00:06:32] I’ve also been So concerned to see all of the comments on these videos and in these discussions and people just loving what these guys are doing and cheering them on and being right on board, and I feel so much concerned about that when One of, one of the reasons as I found out through listening to, to these videos that these two men, young men, have both been in positions of leadership. They’ve both at least been in bishopriggs. One of them, I know, is currently a seminary teacher, and that just breaks my heart because when this version of the gospel. Gains influence and stewardship and power. It is really, I mean, people talk about bishop roulette, right? This feels to me like the way to lose Bishop roulette. I, I want to do what I can. To help awaken us to a different way of viewing the gospel that I think is so much more true and Christlike. And, um, so I, I, I want to do what I can to try to mitigate the harm that can be done with this Phariseeical approach to the gospel. And so, after much prayer and, um, massive outpourings of the spirit. Had far more inspiration than sleep this last week, um. I felt very strongly that there were things that I can and must add to this conversation, the things that I think are needed and that I hope will be heard and will be helpful. And I felt strongly impressed to take this opportunity to teach and testify of Jesus Christ and of his atonement and gospel, as I have been taught to understand them. So if somehow through the blessing of God, I am able to adequately communicate the message I feel is so necessary to share. I believe that this may be the most important episode I ever record. So, um, I that that’s what I am hoping we can, we can accomplish together. So, Let’s go on and get started. The young man making the videos, um, he is going through hours and hours of content of Julie’s and then cherry picking parts, little little snippets of what she has said. And then going through more and more hours of statements of church leaders and various things, sometimes dating decades back and trying to juxtapose it to paint Julie as to to make her appear as out of line as possible, and to try to claim that she is an apostate. In fact, they have actively taught, well, we’ll get into that in a minute, maybe. But, um, Anyway, it’s, it’s really, really difficult to see. And he’s claiming that he’s he was motivated to do this because of somebody he cares about or claims to care about who left the church, and he found out that she had been a follower of Julie Hanks. And so he, he really just wants to

[00:09:39] help and stop this danger. And I have to say that that feels pretty hollow to me because, you know, I, I’ve heard. People talk about people that they claim to care about while they are really criticizing them and judging them and trying to show where they went wrong, right, rather than engaging with them, talking about them, that’s not a very loving act. But it also just appears that there’s been Very little effort to try to understand this person who left, to try to understand where they’re coming from or what their struggles were, or try to minister to those himself. It instead seems that he’s just like, she left, I disapprove of that. And she listened to Julie Beck. So I just, I mean, Julie Hanks. And I, I’ve been saying Julie Beck, I’m Julie Hanks, and I disapprove of Julie Hanks. So I’m going to make that as public as public as possible. So it feels It was like watching the sermon on the Mount play out right before our eyes. Matthew 7:3, And why beholdest thou the moat that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the being that is in thy own eye, or how wilt thou say to thy brother, let me pull out the moat of thine eye, and behold, a beam is in thine own eye. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye. How do we belong to this gospel our entire lives? Serve in bishoprics, these seminary teachers and miss these most central teachings. I really don’t understand. So the, the biggest problem I see with this, the main source of blindness that that is hitting me at least, is that this approach is entirely missing all compassion, all charity, all true ministering. The people that Julie Hanks is ministering to and striving to help. The people that she cares about, many of them are the same people that I care about and have tried so hard to minister to and to help. They are, many of them are people who are struggling with or in the church. Not all of them, but I think many of them have difficulties that they are trying to navigate. And I think that she is speaking to genuine pain and genuine struggle. And so these Young men, instead of trying to understand the pain that the people are experiencing, and thus understand why she is having such a large impact and why so many people find her voice valuable. And then trying to get in there and provide ministering to these issues themselves, they instead are in a way that feels very stunted and immature, just ignoring all of the pain and all of the struggle that she is ministering to and just to find fault with her. It feels like this, I, I just get this yucky energy of like, the captain of the high school debate team who’s gonna win every argument. He can’t see. Any people, he’s just gonna argue his case, right? And, and, and, and ignore everything else cause he wants to win the argument. And it, oh, I just, I do not like that. I can say that as a parent, I don’t think that that’s what the Lord loves seeing among his children. It’s not the most helpful approach or energy to bring to these matters. And so, They’re, they’re so busy fault finding that they’re unable to see or care about the actual people, which again,

[00:13:08] just reminds me so much of the life of the savior. Um, and the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the Sabbath day, that they might find an accusation against him, right? So they’re just watching to find fault, ignoring any. Any of the good that is being done because they just want to find fault. And looking round about upon them all, he said unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand, and he did so, and the hand was restored whole as the other, and they were filled with madness and communed one with another what they might do to Jesus. So these Pharisees. We’re not providing healing themselves. We’re not even compassionate enough to seemingly care about this man’s withered hand and his suffering that that had caused him. They certainly couldn’t empathize with his pain or rejoice in his in his miraculous healing. Instead, they were blind to all of that in their single narrow focus to find fault with the one who provided the healing. It feels to me like a very, very similar energy happening here, a very similar story. There, there’s just like they were saying to the savior, he about the savior. He isn’t keeping our rules. He has to stop healing people because we don’t approve. It feels to me like the exact same thing as being said about Julie Hanks. And so, I want to say, if you don’t like her method of trying to help people and minister to people, then it’s incumbent upon you to get in there, do the work to understand the issues that people are struggling with. And find a better way to heal people. If those Pharisees had the means and the willingness and desire and the compassion to provide healing, then maybe they could have said something about the savior doing it wrong. But since they were neither willing or able to provide any healing themselves, I think that they should just be glad that healing is being provided, rather than focus on criticizing and fault finding the healer. And so, Then I do just want to repeat this, cause what I find so troubling is that both of these young men and so many of their listeners who are, it looks to me, mainly, mainly more young men, maybe I’m wrong, but Any of them could become church leaders, bishops, and state presidents, right? And, um, I, I, like I said, one of them is already a seminary teacher. And so I want to just, please let me, let me explain what I’m saying instead of hearing what you think I might be saying. But with the collective wisdom, understanding, experience, compassion, connection to the Lord, that Julie Hanks or I or any other woman in our lives have gained and will continue to gain, we will never be called into those positions of leadership and ministering. We will never be judges in Israel. We will never be stewards or ministers over a ward, and I, so I’m not arguing that that is wrong right now. What I am saying is We like to claim that women do have representation in our church,

[00:16:27] right? So this is, this is what I hope can be heard. Men in positions of authority and leadership and stewardship have the obligation to listen to women, to understand the concerns that we have, the struggles that we have, to not only understand them, but to care and to make room for us to feel. And express the challenges that we feel, and to do their best to provide ministering. And this is where it really does tap into polygamy. I hope you feel that connection, right? When women are told, you’re, there’s no room for your experiences, for your concerns, for your struggles, we have no interest in listening or in trying to help, but we have authority over you. That is this polygamist energy that It is in our genes. It’s in our cultural, spiritual, and epigenetic DNA. And it is there still affecting us to whatever degree. And that’s why it needs to be called out and addressed and changed. I am, I, I, by no means I’m claiming that it’s universal. But in these interactions that I’m seeing, it feels eerily similar to the things we read from our past. And so, I think that since we belong to this church and this gospel where the structure of the priesthood gives men stewardship over women without ever really doing the reverse, it is highly important that we recognize this, um, this, I guess bad tradition that has happened in the past and that we do not allow it to continue. So I think that The, the importance of listening and caring about women’s experiences, feelings, and input is a necessity for leadership. Just in, in, and for truly humble, inspired gospel leadership. It is absolutely necessary. It’s one of the things that I am the most thankful for in my leaders, and, um, and we can’t. We can’t do without it. It has to be there. So that’s why, that’s why part of why I’m addressing this. From what I have seen as I’ve been catching up on things this week, one of Julie’s central messages is what she calls personal authority. It’s, it’s what I have called personal autonomy. It’s learning to discern for ourselves what is truth. And What God wants for us and, and learning to act in ways that reflect the truth that is inside our own hearts. It’s, um, heeding the inspired counsel that Shakespeare shared, um, from Polonius and Hamlet, to thine own self be true, right? And I think it seems to me that that is at the heart of pretty much everything she is speaking to. It’s I think an essential message for so many people, including people in this church,

[00:19:34] and the reason I guess that I feel the message is so important is because it resonates with me because I had to go through this process. I talk about it in Episode 19, House of Cards, right? Learning to look inside of myself to my own inspiration to know how God wanted, wants me to spend my time and to believe and what to pursue instead of feeling like all of the obligations that I put upon myself based on What I believe and what I’m told, rather than thinking, those are the things that I need to do. Right? It’s a really, really important shift that I think we need to make to be able to grow spiritually and to have greater connection to God and greater personal joy in our life and gospel journey. And so, um, that’s, I, I think that also, that is the only thing that we really can. Be held accountable for, right? When we stand before God. It’s it was never good enough for, um, any of the Hitler’s to say, I was following orders, right? We said, you need to know what is true for yourself. So all of us, when we go before God, I think that we need to be. able to say, this is what you told me to do, and it’s what I’m accountable for, rather than, well, they told me to do that, even though I knew in my heart it wasn’t right. I did it right. I think that really, that’s the only thing that we can be held to account for is what God teaches us. And, um, again, the connection to, to polygamy, that is the only thing that could have saved the young girls that get taken advantage of in these situations, the House of Cards, I mean the um Law of Sarah episode we did, right? If those young girls had been taught. To listen to what God is saying to them rather to what then to what outside authorities are telling them, they could have been more empowered to find truth and to be less victimized. I think that this message of personal autonomy or personal authority is absolutely essential. So it’s hard for me to see it being Well, turned into a straw man and then bludgeoned with out of context decades old talks from church leaders or or snippets of talks from church leaders, right? Cause I think I mean, isn’t that what our whole gospel training is about is learning to listen to the spirit, the still small voice, right? That’s what we are taught and that’s all over in your in our scriptures repeatedly. The scriptures again and again, teach us the the importance of truth and how to find truth. Again and again, they teach us how to discern. And I have yet, someone can share it with me, please. But I have yet to find any place where by precept or example, the scriptures teach us that the ultimate authority we should look to for truth is outside of ourselves, is. An institution or even representatives of an institution. It is quite,

[00:22:37] quite the contrary. So let me share some examples that these are some of the, Anyway, I, I want to go to the scriptures so that we can have an actual discussion on what we are taught in the gospel, rather than just what we claim or believe or have been traditionally indoctrinated to think that that the scriptures teaching that the gospel. So, Maroni 7:15, for behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge that ye may know good from evil, and the way to judge is as plain that ye may know with the perfect knowledge as the daylight is from the dark night. For behold, and here’s the way to judge. The spirit of Christ is given to every man that he may know good from evil, skipping down to 18. And now my beloved brethren. Brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which that by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that you do not judge wrong wrongfully, for with that judge, that same judgment which ye judge, ye shall also be judged. Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently the light of Christ, that ye may know good from evil. It’s so clear, the light of Christ, that doesn’t come from any external source. It is inside of our hearts and our quest is to learn to listen to it, right? When Joseph Smith came to Brigham Young in the dream and told him and Brigham asked what he should tell the saints, and Joseph Smith said, tell them to get the spirit. Tell them to learn to listen to that internal guidance from the Lord that’s not subject to being misled by any errors or mistakes of men. And so you, we can expand that. It’s, um, I recommend looking at verses 13 through 18. And the wording is that this spirit inviteth and enticeth and persuade or persuadeth to do good and to love God and to believe in Jesus Christ. All of that is language of the Spirit, right? Also, on the contrary, The enticings of the evil one that leads us the other direction, but none of that is the language of obligation or heavy burden or external expectation or commandments put on us. It is the gentle internal guidance based in love, compassion and understanding that comes directly from God. We have so many more examples. Doctrine and Covenants 82. Yeah, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart. Now behold, this is the spirit of revelation. How do we learn truth? What should our authority be, right? Um, Doctrine Covenants 98. But behold, I say unto you that you must study it out in your mind. And then you must ask me if it be right. And if it is right, I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you. Therefore, you you shall feel that it is right. But if it be not right, you shall have no such feeling, but shall have a stupor of thought, again, internal. Then, One of our most famous and beloved scriptures, the one that started the Restoration, James 1:5. If any of you will lack wisdom, let him ask of God that giveth to all men liberally and upbraeth not, and it shall be given him.

[00:25:51] That’s, that is what Joseph’s example should teach all of us, right? Mro I 105, we’re so familiar with 104, the promise of confirmation, and 105 builds on it. And by the power of the Holy Ghost, ye may know the truth of all things. This is the universal source for truth that we are taught in the scriptures. Julie’s message of personal authority or my understanding of personal autonomy comes right from the scriptures. It is a it is an absolutely central gospel principle, so it’s hard to see that come after attack. And um, Let’s see Oh, in addition to being taught that we, where we should look inside our own hearts, inside our own beings and the communication of the divine to us personally, that that’s where we should look for truth. We’re actually warned not to have an external locus of control, not to look to externalize our authority, right? Through the teachings of any person, whoever they are. And it’s, um, This is taught again repeatedly. Jeremiah 17:5, Thus sayeth the Lord, Cursed be the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arm or whose heart departeth from the Lord. When we let go of developing that internal ability and instead start listening to other people and and their authority to tell us what we need to do for our own lives, we’re warned that that will not necessarily take us good places. Second. Nephi well, Nephi repeats this twice. Um, 4:34. 0 Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh. For I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yeah, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm. And again, second Nephi 2831, Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm. It it repeats it again. Um, doctor in the Covenants 3:6, and behold, how often you have transgressed the commandments and the laws of God and have gone on in the persuasions of men. For behold, you should not have feared man more than God. These are so such crucial lessons, right? And, um, Doctrine Covenants 5:21, and now I command you, my servant Joseph, to repent and walk more uprightly before me. And and to yield to the persuasions of men no more, that ye may be firm in keeping the commandments with wherewith I have commanded you. So, and the very purpose of the restoration is to bring us all into this place of being able to have personal autonomy and reliance on God rather than anything outside of us. Doctrine and Covenants 1:19 explains that the restoration was brought about, that the weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh, but that every man might. In the name of the Lord, even the Savior of Jesus Christ. So based on the scriptures, it is extremely difficult to claim that the message of personal authority or personal autonomy is wrong. Or the another name we could give it is agency, right? The entire

[00:29:13] center and foundation of the entire plan is the combination of agency and Jesus Christ. They are both absolutely essential and At the bottom of everything else. So there are many scriptures I could share, but let’s go with Doctrine Covenants 9331. Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man, because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them. All of these teachings of the scriptures are taught us so plainly. And yet they receive not the light, right? The way that we’ve received truth is through the light, but we don’t receive it because we’re so busy listening to having our reliance on man and listening to all the things that we are told we are obligated to do from outside ourselves. And we chase those obligations trying to accomplish them so that we can be worthy and thought well of and be approved of, right? That’s exactly what I think God is teaching us here. And if we skip down to Um, well, let’s continue on with 32. And every man who receive whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation, skipping to 36. The glory of God is intelligence, or in other words, light and truth. Light and truth inside of ourselves. Light and truth forsake the evil one, and that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth through disobedience from the children of men and because of the traditions of their fathers. Right? The things, the trainings, the enculturation. That has been handed down to us that makes us feel obligated to look outside of ourselves instead of inside of ourselves to hear the voice of God spoken to us. So, this is all, I, I hope you’re able to hear what I’m saying, cause it might seem complicated, but I think it is simple and extremely important. So we have, we do have many traditions that weigh us down. So this is, this is the main part I want to go on and talk to. So I want to talk. About the gospel of works versus the gospel of grace, right? The Gospel of works. The idea that we need to do all the things, be perfect shining examples of gospel living in every way. We could, I mean, there are so many manifestations of this that there’s not even a point to start listing them because each of you probably has, in your own life, in your own experience, plenty of understanding of what these things are or what things you have struggled with, right? The things that Make us appear wonderful to others or make us feel like we feel so ashamed and like we are inferior. All of the stuff that we use to prove our worth and to judge one another, right? That is just part of human nature. That’s, that’s what this is talking about. It, it is an endless list that we strive to be perfect, or at the very least, to appear to be perfect at being able to accomplish, right? And too often we utterly wear ourselves out and often wear others out and damage our relationships

[00:32:16] in the process. And so, um, there are, there are times in my life when I’ve been just, when I’ve thrived and been filled and energetic and felt like I was doing such a good job and, you know, and I, I think there maybe that wasn’t the best because I felt like I was earning something. I was accomplishing something. I was doing something. There have been other times in my life when I have been utterly wasted, laid flat, you know, in bed Saturday night at 2 o’clock in the morning, sobbing because I am so tired and I know I have to get up and get my kids to church first thing in the morning with all of their my lesson and their talks in there. you know, it can be exhausting to to approach life and church activity this way. And so, um, that’s what I want to talk about. So in that exhausted place. Jesus teaches Matthew 11:28, Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest unto your souls, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light. The gospel should make our lives lighter, more enlivening, happier, richer, more fulfilling, and more joyous to live. It should not ever make our lives heavier or harder or make us feel weighed down with obligations and rules, and the gospel should energize us, not exhaust us. It should empower us, not Condemn and and make us feel unworthy and unable to bear the burdens that are placed on us. And so I have come to learn that if we are experiencing the church and the gospel in a way that is burdening us, we have the opportunity to learn more, cause that is not the gospel of Jesus Christ, as he tells us himself. So we need to learn to let go of that weight, that heavy yoke of expectation and burden, and instead embrace the light yoke, the light burden that Jesus gives us of personal revelation, personal direction, personal authority or personal autonomy. I think so much of this comes down to the perspective of either on the one hand, a gospel of grace or a gospel of works, right? The polygamist mindset was very much the women were taught that they were in danger of destruction and damnation if they didn’t do all of the things that were commanded of them. And so it was very much a gospel of works where what they did mattered, not their experience, right? The system mattered, not their individuality. And I think that is a false tradition. So I want to share a little bit of my experience of coming to see and understand the gospel and atonement of Jesus Christ in a very different way. So, I’m going to try to go over some of this quite quickly and then We’ll move on back again to the scriptures. So, years ago, this has probably been 16 years ago, and I have been, I was a heavenly burden heavily burdened, striving Mormon mom doing all the things, right? And I had a series,

[00:35:47] there was a 3 part series of being shown things in those wee hours of the morning between sleep and wake. And it was an unfolding. Understanding that came piece by piece in 3 different series over the course of the week, and then has, has gone on in the ensuing weeks, months and years after that to teach me more and more and more. But I’ve come to call what I was shown at that point, the parable of the sinking ship cause that’s, that’s how it’s directed my life. And, um, I, I cannot, but it’s hard to even talk about it cause there’s so much and I just have to go to one little tiny portion of it. But There was a giant, a giant ship with all my understanding was that all of the people of the earth were on it, right? And the ship sink. And, um, and we all started swimming. And I was a strong swimmer and I was swimming really far. I knew I was endlessly far from the shore and would never make it, but it was my obligation to swim as, as far as I could and as fast as I could, right? And And so that’s what I was doing, and that was the first portion I was given. And then The next portion, um, the rescue helicopters came, and I looked up and saw the savior above the savior was coming in the helicopter, the savior above looking down with the most appalled and heartbroken expression on his face. And then I saw from the savior’s perspective, the the ruins, the sunken ship, and all of the people scattered a million different directions. They’d all swam away. The weaker swimmers had drowned and all of the strong swimmers were spread from me hither to yawn, right, making all of the work of the savior so much harder. And I learned, I realized it, it went on from there, as I said, but I was so clearly taught. The savior said. I knew the ship was going to sink, and I wanted you on it because I knew you were a strong swimmer. And I needed you there to be my helper until I could come. And um completely changed my perspective for the gospel. There’s much, much more, but um we’ll, maybe we’ll get into a little bit more, but I wanna share the huge paradigm shift I had. So that I can go on and explain some of the scriptures in the way that I see them. We are often accused by Christians of being a gospel of works, and I think in too many cases, there’s validity, validity to their accusations. Um, we have some key scriptures that I think Can be misunderstood to lend credibility to that accusation against us. Um, I think that, as I’ve mentioned so many times, it really has become a truth to me that God allows ambiguity in the scriptures. He gives us enough rope to hang ourselves,

[00:38:56] right? There is a lesser portion and a greater portion, as EA 12 and many other places talk about. And so, um, these scriptures read in one way can give the false impression. That if we swim and as far and as fast as we can. Then we are worthy of being saved, and the savior will come pick us up first, right? Cause we were the ones that were the closest. We’re, we’re all infinitely far from the shore. None of us is gonna make, make it by swimming to shore. That’s part of what I left off of the parable. But if we at least went as far as we can, then, you know, when the savior comes and picks us up, we’ll fall at his feet and thank him. But then we’ll kind of expect a pat on the back and a hey, thanks for swimming so far, and he we expect him to thank us for making it so easy for him to save us, cause we did so much that there wasn’t that much left that he needed to accomplish. Right? That that perspective, I think, is so, so flawed. And I think that I hope that we can hear these scriptures in a different way. So many of you are familiar with this picture, right? Probably everybody is. And, and I want to just qualify these scriptures by showing this picture. If you had been told as a child, if this had been hung in your home, and you were told that this was great, great grandmother. Agnes, who, and you know, you’ve been told all the stories of her life, and you were just told from your infancy that this was an old woman, and that’s what you had been taught to see, and that’s what everybody see saw, and that was the only way it was ever talked about. And you were told who she was and all of the things about her, right? It might be hard to catch something else in that picture. So if one day Out of the corner of your eye, you caught a glimpse of something else, you may have a hard time trusting yourself. And then if you tried to tell other people something else you saw in this picture that, wait, I see some, I see a young woman. They might call you crazy. Some, some would hopefully try to see what you were seeing, but some might flat out tell you you were wrong. They may call you a lunatic or even worse, accuse you of being a heretic or an apostate, right? So I wanted to qualify and to to start with this so that for those who haven’t seen these scriptures in a different light, you might at least consider that there might be something that you just haven’t seen yet, rather than just saying, nope, it’s flat out wrong. And so the first one that I want us to be willing to consider is Secon Nei 2523. For we labored diligently to write, to persuade our children and also our brethren to believe in Christ and to be reconciled to God. For we know that it is, for we know that it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do, right? I certainly was raised believing that that scripture meant, if I do all I do, all I can do, then I qualify for grace. And my goodness, the Lord profoundly taught me. That I had misunderstood that scripture. And so I,

[00:42:02] I guess it’s the same as trying to explain Jacob 2 chapter 2, verse 30 in a different way and say, Hey guys, look, this is what it’s saying. I feel that same challenge right now. But if you take this scripture in context of everything, the Book of Mormon teaches, everything that Nephi teaches continually and everything else that is taught in this chapter, we can see that there is a very different message the scripture’s trying to Teach. Verse 30 says, as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven. Save it be this Jesus Christ, of which I have spoken whereby man can be saved. You’ll note it’s the name Jesus Christ, not the name Michelle Stone or whatever your name is. It is not up to us to save ourselves in any portion or any degree. And then if you continue on with what it says after talking about it is by Grace that we are saved. It says, and we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ. We preach of Christ. We prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophesy prophecies that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins. Wherefore, we speak concerning the law, that would be our ability to sufficiently keep the law to qualify for being saved. We speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law. That they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto the life which is in Christ and know for what end the law was given, and it was not given to save us. It was given to teach us how utterly reliant we are on Jesus Christ. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against Him when The law ought to be done away when we ought to lose our reliance on our ability to sufficiently obey and do all of the things in order to qualify for the grace of God. So what I, how I, after experiencing this and giving, being given new eyes, how I learned to read this was Um, for we know it is by grace we are saved. No matter how much we do, right? We labor diligently to write to persuade our children and also our brethren to believe in Christ and to be reconciled by God. For we know that it is by grace that we are saved. That all makes sense, right? No matter how much we do, after all that we can do, after doing all of our best, we are saved 100% by grace, right? No matter how far I swim, I am infinitely far from the shore. And guess what? Swimming was the wrong thing to do. Working. To try to earn my worth, my salvation, was not what the Savior sent me here to do, was not what the Savior sent any of us here to do. So that’s the first scripture. I hope I’ve explained that well enough. I don’t feel like I did a good, a very good job, but hopefully you understand it. Then the next one, that that’s a little bit harder is Maroni 10:32. And it says, yeah, come unto Christ and be perfected in in Him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness. And if you shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind, and strength, then is His grace sufficient for you, that by His grace ye may be perfect in in Christ. And if by the grace of God you are in you are perfect in Christ, ye can in no wise deny the power of God. And it It goes on from there. And again, so it gives this message of, if you do all of this, then you qualify for grace.

[00:45:26] And again, I think that this is understood incorrect. I think that there is a much greater portion of understanding here. Now, um, we’re going to talk about this a little bit more. Let me first explain what I have come to see in this scripture. He is telling us, and, and we’re we’re gonna go on and talk about King Benjamin’s sermon and others, a few of the many places that these same principles are taught. And then we’re going to tell, talk about what Maroni says about his own challenge in writing and knowing how to put words in the right order to to adequately communicate the message he wants to give and what God tells him about that struggle. So, if we read this to understand, ya, come unto Christ. That is the only thing we are being told we have to do. We come under Christ, and when we do that, we will be perfected in Him. And that process then changes our hearts, just as we’re going to talk about in King Benjamin. And we begin to deny ourselves of all ungodliness. And when we feel that happening, when we feel our hearts changing, that we are denying ourselves of all ungodliness, we begin to love God with our entire might, mind and strength because we see how great he is and how magnificent the enabling power of the atonement is that comes in and changes our hearts. And when we experience that, then we know because we have the personal testimony of the goodness of the grace of God. And we understand grace and we know that His grace is sufficient for us. That by His grace, we are, because by His grace, we are becoming perfect in Christ. And when this happens, when by the grace of God you are perfect in Christ, you can in no wise deny the power of God. And it goes on. And again, it’s teaching us this process that happens, that enlivens us, and it’s teaching us step by step how this works. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ and deny not His power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is the which is in the covenant of the Father and the remission of sins that you become holy without spot. What I think Maroni is doing here, which is his final testimony to it to us. There’s only one more verse in the entire Book of Mormon where he bids us farewell, and then he buries it and he goes off to meet his face, his fate, because he has given us his last testimony, his last encapsulation. His last desperate attempt to teach us where we look to for our salvation and to teach us how this process works. And so, when we understand these scriptures, in particular in this way, the Book of Mormon becomes the most profound document about the doctrine of grace that exists on the earth. So it is the most profound teaching of the power of Jesus Christ to save us and the plan of salvation. And how it actually works. And so we just need to understand it in this way that I think the Lord helped me to understand it. And so, if, if anyone wants to argue and doubt and say, no, that’s what it says, well, we need to also take the Book of Mormon as a whole, right? So we’re going to look at King Benjamin’s sermon because I think this is one of the places that this The truth of this doctrine is most profoundly taught is the experience that what King Benjamin teaches and then the experience that his people have. So we’re going to go to Mosiah chapter 2, and we’ll start at verse 21. I say unto you that if ye should serve Him who has created you from

[00:49:12] the beginning and is preserving you from day to day by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will and even supporting you from one moment to another, I say, if ye should serve Him with all your whole souls, yet ye would be unprofitable servants. What can I ever possibly give God that he hasn’t first given me? Any talent that I utilize in trying to follow his commandment. He gave me that talent. Every bit of energy I have, every bit of opportunity I have, all of that comes from him. Every bit of inspiration I have of what to do. He gave me first. And when, when he gives me that, it blesses me far more than it blesses anybody that I am blessed to be able to serve. I just the other day was out running. I know that this is just my example from yesterday. So I’ll just share it. And I was, I was out on my run and there was this older woman who had been piling all of these leaves, all of the leaves in her yard into a tarp and was struggling to pull it. She was, I just, I happened to turn my head and caught a glimpse of this sweet old woman struggling to pull this tarp and immediately, I thought I could help her and ran over and asked if she, if she could use some help, and she was so gracious and allowed me to help her and you know, I was exercising anyway. It was just more, more muscle work and And I was able to pull the tarp with her, and she just, she just laughed and smiled and said, oh, to be young again, you know, and I was able to pull it over and dump the leaves out for her and help her get that that job done. And, um, and I’ll tell you what, as I left after thanking her for Letting me help her as I left. Do you know, you guys know from experience how I felt, right? I hope that lady was thankful for my help, but I know it didn’t bless her a fraction as much as it blessed me to have that opportunity. That is what always happens. For anything good that I do is because the Lord. Enabled me to be able to do it. So for me to expect the Lord to pat me on the back and say thanks so much for all that you did for me, right, right instead of the opposite for me falling on my face and telling the Lord, thank you so much for all that you do for me is backwards is misunderstood. So anyway, so King Benjamin goes on trying to teach this point and now and now in the first place, yeah, um, let’s see, did I skip it? And now in the first place he hath created you and granted unto you your lives for which ye are indebted to him. And secondly, he doth require that you should do as he hath commanded you, for which, if ye do, he doth immediately bless you. And therefore he hath paid you and ye are still indebted unto him. I would say indebted even more, right? And are and will be forever and ever and ever. Therefore, of what have ye to boast?

[00:52:19] And now I ask, can you say art of yourselves? Can you look, can you brag about your accomplishments at all? Can you look to yourself at all for your salvation? I say I I answer you nay, you cannot say that you are even as much as the dust of the earth, yet you were created of the dust of the earth. But behold, it belonged to him who created you. Nothing about us is our own that we can brag about, right? And then continuing, um, Mosiah 3:17. I’m just taking snippets, all of these scriptures. I hope you’ll go and just read all of them because it’s so profound to put these things together. And moreover, moreover, I say unto you that there shall, there shall be no other name given, nor, uh, nor any other means whereby, whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and Through the name of Jesus Christ, the Lord omnipotent, again, teaching us that. It’s not our own name. Behold, that salvation was and is and is to come in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord omnipotent. If the important thing were our obedience, we wouldn’t be told again, again, again, again about the grace of God and about our faith in God and about our reliance on God. We would be told again and again and again and again all the things we needed to do every single day, right? That is what the savior’s whole ministry and mission would have been about. That would be the core part of the sermon on the Mount. It would be telling us all of the itty bitty, nitpicky laws we have to accomplish, just like Jesus was coming to fulfill and to teach us a different way. And so verse 18, believe that salvation was and is and is to come in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent, going over to Mosiah 4, the, the sermon continues. Oh, and this is, this is the reaction, the effect that this had on the people. And they had viewed themselves in their own carnal state, even less. Than the dust of the earth, and they all cried with one voice saying, Oh, have mercy and apply the atoning blood of Christ, that we may receive forgiveness of our sins and our hearts may be purified, for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God who created heaven and earth, and all things who shall come down among the children of men. So in that moment, every single one of them learned how completely, desperately, utterly reliant on God they were. None of them were like, Well, I do this and I do that, and I deserve this. They all saw the truth of what they were being taught. And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words, once they saw themselves in that state, once they realized how desperately in need they were of grace and of salvation given from God. Once they had that experience, the spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, having peace of conscience because of their exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ who should come, right? So you can see Moroni’s explanation, um, is a,

[00:55:22] is an encaps. of this story that we’re being told and that we are told throughout the scriptures. These people came unto Christ. They saw their brokenness, their desperate need, and they came unto Christ, and then they were filled with the spirit of God and they experienced what Marron I goes on to talk about. And King Benjamin continues, for behold, if the knowledge of the goodness of God at this time has awakened you to a sense of your nothingness and your worthless and fallen state, he continues on to talk more about the goodness of God and the merits of Christ and Christ’s power to save and the nothingness of man. He, he, and he continues verse 11. And as ye have come to this, to the knowledge of the glory of God, or you if ye have known of His goodness and have tasted of His love and have received a remission of your sins which causeth such an exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so, I would that ye should remember and retain in remembrance. The greatness of God and your own nothingness and His goodness and long suffering toward you, unworthy creatures and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily and standing and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come. And behold, I say unto you that if ye should do this, ye shall always rejoice and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins, and ye shall grow in the knowledge and the glory of Him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true, and then he continues to go on. And talk about what will happen if they experience that, that they will not injure one another. They will care for and teach their children, and they will care for one another, and they will serve those in need and sucker those who lack and share with those in need and not judge them. Right? Exactly the things we’re talking about. It is the, the just King Benjamin is the best example of how, of, of what Moon is encapsulating. Morona in those last final verses is trying to give a cliff’s note summary of this experience that is taught again and again throughout Scripture. So it continues on. Mosiah 5:2. The spirit of the Lord omnipotent has wrought brought a mighty change in our hearts that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually, right? So that is the process. That is why and how we deny ourselves of all ungodliness, because we come unto we see our need, we come unto Christ, and then he enters our hearts and begins to change our hearts, change our nature, give us a new heart. That is, and then that fills us with joy, fills us with the testimony of Jesus Christ, and that that’s how the process works again and again. I Just this is what I wish all of fast and testimony meeting were about. This is the atonement, the enabling power of the atonement. We’ll talk about it a little bit more. Um, I, I want to also, oh yes, it’s anyone that’s still in doubt of this interpretation, let me offer another key, um, case in point and one that offers us an important key that I said I would talk about. This is Ether 12:25, but I believe it’s Moroni writing. Thou hast made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them.

[00:58:47] Wherefore, when we write, we behold our weakness and stumble because of the placing of our words. They’re not exactly sure how to write these things in a way that that will be understood, even in word order. And I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words, accuse the Book of Mormon of teaching a doctrine of grace, a gospel of works instead of grace. And then I, and when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me saying, fools mock, but they shall mourn, and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness. The meek, those who will be humble and teachable and rely on grace, will the Lord will help the meek to see what Maroni is actually teaching and not misunderstand. So that the Book of Mormon won’t on the one hand, be mocked as a doctrine of works, and on the other hand, won’t be misunderstood so that people won’t mourn because they misunderstood the the gospel of Jesus Christ and what he is trying to help us understand. And then it continues on. And if men come unto me, I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may, may be humble. And my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me. For if they humble themselves before me and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them, right? And this, I think, speaks to what I see as the Twofold the power of the atonement. There’s, it’s much more than that, but just in this context, I want to talk about this, this process that as, as we’ve described, we begin to come into, we, we begin to come into Christ and to see our weakness, right? Just as the people of King Benjamin, he was preaching and bringing them into Christ, and when when they approach him, they see that they’re less than less than the dust of the earth. They see how desperately dependent they are. And that awareness leads us to faith in Jesus Christ, to complete humility and reliance on the Lord. And in that way, our weaknesses may become strengths. Our weaknesses are the things that make us strong, because instead of relying on our own strength, we rely on the Lord. And Through that whole process, the Lord’s grace is sufficient to make up for all of our sin and our weakness and our lack that we continue to fall into because our our hearts haven’t yet been changed. But it also speaks to that in the Lord’s time and in his way. He will enter in and change our hearts, and in many instances, literally make things that were our weaknesses become some of our greatest strengths. So it works in both of those ways. And, um, he, I, I, I want to talk a little bit about this cause it’s so easy to get caught up in this misunderstanding of the atonement of God and feel like we need to do all we can to qualify for that somehow. And when we’re in that space, it can just be so demoralizing when we continue to fall into the same sin, the same weakness again and again and again and feel like we’re not even worthy of repenting cause we’ve repented so many times that It’s not even repentance cause we didn’t forsake our sins. So how can we even dare to talk to the Lord about it? And how can the Lord even stand us? Right?

[01:02:15] And I was in that spot once. I’ll, I’ll tell you a little bit of another personal story. Years and years ago, I, my whole life have been a sugar addict, like. Chocolate chip cookies, forget about it. You know, I had no ability, no willpower, and I was, um, told years ago I had a prompting from the Lord in this process that told me that I needed to stop eating sugar. That was an answer to me. I’m not universalizing this. This was my direction. And I really wanted to be obedient to everything I was told, but this one. It was hard for me and I failed every single day. Every single day I had this experience of feeling like I was worthless, like I was completely embarrassed to repent again. And I know that this might seem like a little one, but it doesn’t matter what the specifics of this struggle are because it all it universalizes all of us, right? If mine is sugar rather than some more grievous sin, that doesn’t mean that. Oh good. You’re welcome, Lord. I only struggled with sugar at this time, right? Right? It, it just brings us all to the exact same place of utter and desperate reliance on God. And so I did have that experience for years of just constant repentance, constant desire to be obedient, but inability to do it, right? And then I, um, after I had my 11th, I had some direct answers that taught me so that he’s he’s almost, well, he’s 5. At the end after he was born, I had some direct answers that taught me step by step what I needed to do. To be able to change my eating. It was not easy, but at least it was possible because I was told specific instructions instead of just the overall, you need to do this, right? And then as I went on the years after that, um, through so many of the challenges I went through and so many of the things I experienced in that one area, my heart and nature was completely changed and I Now I’m in a place where I can’t even believe that I am in the place where I am. Where instead of dealing with health struggles and dealing with weight problems, and dealing with feelings of inferiority and fuzzy-mindedness, and, you know, I am instead in a completely different place because of the goodness of God and what he did. For me. And he changed my heart in that one area, in that one way, and took that away from me. I don’t want to say it happened automatically or without an immense amount of effort on my part, but it was after years and years of daily continual repentance where the Lord made up for my lack before I was able to obey and then empowered me to be able to obey. And I’ll tell you what, not one part of me. Feels even the slightest bit of taking any credit. I am so aware that this was given as a gift and that the Lord has enabled me, and all I feel is more gratitude and more indebtedness to the Lord, right? Not more

[01:05:23] righteousness that look, I don’t have to repent for that sin every day. It’s just so silly to think of it that way when we experience it. So I’m hoping that many of you have your own story. Sugar is a safe one safeish one to talk about. But it’s the same process in every day of our lives. The Lord makes up for us while we are still trapped in our weakness and our sin, and he covers us. And then eventually he changes us in, in ways that we cannot even begin to understand or ever thank Him for adequately. So I want to tell another. Story that I learned this just this week, that was another confirmation of this principle of this perspective, the of the atonement. John chapter 8, the woman taken in adultery, has always been one of my favorite stories of the savior because of how much it teaches us teaches us about him, and I guess in particular, his dealings with the least of these, with women and with sinners, and with those who feel inferior and insufficient. And um Especially now when we’re speaking of this Phariseeical blindness, this what what started this podcast, this blindness to charity and compassion and the worth of souls, these Pharisees dragged this poor woman with 00 focus on her humanity, her experience. They dragged her before the Lord and sat her down in the street in front of him and in front of all of the people say trying, they were only using her as a means to trap the savior, right? And the savior in his infinite wisdom and compassion and charity. He, I love how he tells his his um disciples to be as harmless as a dove, but as as harmless as doves and wise as serpents, cause that’s what I feel like he is here. He sees exactly what is happening, but his focus is on the one who is suffering, right? So I know I’ve talked about this before, but he gets down in the dirt with her on her level where he’s not above her, where she could look into his eyes if she dared, if she felt even worthy to do that. He gets down and provides emotional support as well as a physical and spiritual shield, right, where he is putting himself in the position to take any stones that might be thrown at her and In that raging storm of scorn, fear, and despair that she must surely have been drowning in, he wrapped his arms around her as her shield of protection. And then after he made all of her accusers go away, he even allowed her to speak that there were no accusers left. He showed her and then allowed her to speak, and then he said, neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more. And this part, so many people use that last part, go and sin no more to undermine the whole point of the story. Well, he told her to go and say, no, no more. So he doesn’t condone sin. He really does care and he really does condemn and judge, right? And I, I always thought that was completely missing the point because, well, the scripture I was led to when I was struggling with sugar, and I was feeling so unworthy to even pray and I opened right to I have the reference written above words, but it’s the Lord, where the Lord says, as many times as my people doth repent that many times will I forgive them. Mosiah 26:30, yeah, and as often as my people repent, will I forgive them their trespass against me, right? There is endless. You,

[01:09:00] you don’t have a three strike you’re out rule with the Lord. Even if the woman had been dragged before him the next day, he wouldn’t have said, Oh, sorry, I told you, you’re out of chances. I told you to go and send no more. It’s such a silly way to try to explain away this story. But what was so much more profound was what I learned this week. I was coming home from that same run. And it’s just a sudden burst of intelligence, right? What is, what is more delicious in life than that? And I ended up crying the whole way home from the run my run because what I learned is that when the Lord said, go and sin no more, he was not commanding this woman. He was miraculously profoundly blessing and healing her. Exactly the same way as when he said, arise and walk, told the man, arise, pick up thy bed and walk. He wasn’t commanding that man, just get up and walk without providing him the miraculous ability to do it by healing his physical body, and it is no less miraculous when the Lord. Heals a wounded heart, right, when he takes the broken pieces that have been shattered through, who knows, who knows if this woman or any of us, maybe she had been abused from the earliest days of her childhood. Maybe she felt complete and utter worthlessness about herself and no ability to control her life. Who knows what suffering and brokenness had brought her to that awful situation she found herself in. But what the savior did was not none of us sin because we just want to be bad, right? None of us just don’t care. It is, I think, always a result of our brokenness, of our weakness, of our inability to obey and to do better, or maybe lies we’re telling ourselves or lies that have been told to us and our lack of understanding of our worth and our lack of connection to God. That is what I think is the The cause of almost all sin. Maybe there are just some really wicked people, but it’s nobody that I know or have experienced. If there is someone like that. It’s always a manifestation of our brokenness. And so the Lord came to that woman, took all the shattered, worthless, self-loathing portions of her heart and Bound her heart back up in any holes or darkness that had been there were just wiped out with all of the light that he filled it with, right, just as he he healed the man’s blindness or the man’s with withered hand or just as he said to the woman with the issue of blood, her thy sit they. Faith hath made thee whole. Go, go thy way, go in peace. That I believe is exactly what he is saying to this woman when she says, go and sin no more. And so even when we are enabled to overcome our sin, it is because the Lord has healed us, right? So even then we don’t take the credit to ourselves. It is still a blessing that we bow down in the dirt and praise and thank God for that fills our hearts more and more with the love of God. And so I, I, I just think that that for me was my favorite part of getting this episode ready was getting that new next little piece and knowledge. And so,

[01:12:24] um. I think that that is why we have to become so aware of the atonement in this way to open our hearts and our minds to see what the gospel really is, what Jesus Christ actually gives us, and what the Book of Mormon actually teaches. And like I said, I just think, man, if this were what our testimony meetings were filled with, can you even imagine if we all come together with our Testimonies of how the Lord heals our brokenness and Makes up for our lack in every single way and then changes our hearts. That’s, that’s what I think is the enabling power of the atonement, right? It’s that God’s ability to heal us, bless us, repair our brokenness, and fill all the lack that we have with His own light and goodness and truth and love. And so I think it’s just tragic when we fail to misunderstand. I, I mean when we fail to understand because we’re missing so much. I think of Matthew 13:13. Therefore speak I to them in parables, because seeing they see not and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which sayeth, by hearing ye shall hear and shall not understand, and seeing ye shall see and not perceive. For this people’s heart is waxed grow. And their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and should understand with their hearts and should be converted and I should heal them as soon as we can see the truth, the reality that includes seeing our own. Brokenness, our own utter reliance on the merits of God. And as soon as we can see the worth of souls in every other face we see around us, as soon as we begin to see and hear and understand the gospel in that way, then the savior enters in and heals us. It is not a gospel of works. It is not a checklist. It is not a heavy burden. It is exactly the opposite. So, um, My, I, I wanna just go on to one more thing to, to exemplify this point. I hope, I hope this is useful to you because I It feels so important to me. Um, so my son in our last episode that I released talked about our all of our discussions on the parables, and that is something we talked about a lot because my experience, my conviction that there is always at least one lesser and greater portion in all of the teachings of Jesus Christ. And I feel like the lesser portion is almost always based on this gospel of works. Do the stuff, qualify, be one of the good guys, right? And but it always has hints, things that don’t make sense, that are just off off base, and that we, that we, you know, we’re blind and we don’t see them until the Lord starts to begin to open our eyes to them and we see, oh my gosh, there’s something more here, right? And, and that’s where we begin to receive the greater portion. And in my experience, The greater portion is always basically get over yourself. Stop focusing on your own worthiness or worth. I’ve already taken care of that. Just start helping me in my work. That’s how I view the greater portion.

[01:15:51] Of course, there are beautiful lessons to be learned on every level, so there’s not a right and a wrong, but I do think there is a lesser and a greater. And so we’re, we only, we’re, this is already gonna go long. So just really quickly, um, I think the lost sheep is one example, right? If you actually read it in Luke 15, I’ll just read these couple of verses. What man of you having 100 sheep, if you lose one of them, does not leave the 90 and 9 in the wilderness and go after that which is lost until he find it, right? Where are the 90 and 9? I In, in comparing this, applying this teaching here to King Benjamin’s sermon that we just went over, they’re all lost. They’re all in the wilderness. The lost sheep is the one that has eyes to see, ears to hear, a heart to understand. It’s the one. That comes under Christ enough to realize it’s lost, right? The one that falls down and sees itself as less than dust of the earth and cries out, please save me. It’s the, it’s the one that is lost. And so that’s why the savior leaves the 99 that have no use for him and goes after the one that wants desperately what he is offering. And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. All of those 99 in the wilderness can’t be picked up and put on the savior’s shoulders, only the one that realizes it’s lost and cries out for help. And he, and when he cometh home, so he puts it on his shoulders and carries it home, it’s no longer in the wilderness lost, not in need of salvation. It’s carried home by the Savior. He called us together his friends and neighbors, saying unto them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you that likewise joy shall be had in heaven over one sinner that repenteth more than over 90 and 9 just persons which need no repentance. Who needs no repentance? The just persons who need no repentance are the people who rely on the law, who rely on the gospel of works, who think that somehow they are qualifying for the justice of God, and they, they don’t need repentance. That’s why the one that realizes it’s lost and can be saved. is where the joy of the savior is because he has the opportunity to save, which is what he came to do. And then if we look at the parable of the talents, it’s another beautiful example. And, um, I won’t take the time to, hopefully you all remember it. One man is given 5 talents, one man is given 2 talents, and one man is given 1. The one with 5 and 2, take them into the marketplace. Place and trade them, use them, exchange them and double what, what the, um, their Lord gave to them. And the one with one talent buries his, right? And the Lord is very pleased with the two that doubled their talents, and the one that buried his, uh, is sent into weeping, wailing gnashing your teeth, right? And if you think of that parable, if you think of those talents as portions of grace, There is such profound,

[01:18:56] a profound lesson to be learned there. Maybe that man with 5 talents was whatever you might happen to think of as like the uh someone of the least worth and the most sinful. Maybe it’s someone who just had a terrible upbringing, was addicted to drugs their whole Life covered in tattoos, homeless, like, whatever it might be, right? Maybe, maybe it’s someone like that, who knows. But in any case, all of the grace that God gave them, they take into their interactions with all other mankind, with all of humankind, and they see everybody as a worthy child of God who is just struggling to do their best. And they don’t judge anyone. So all of the grace that the Lord gave to them, they give to everybody else, right? And the Lord says, hooray! They get it. And maybe the man with two talents was someone who did a pretty good job, but, you know, had some pretty, some pretty core weaknesses that he just couldn’t seem to kick whatever it might be, and Maybe it was just enough to help him to be able to really understand what other people deal with. So, in his interactions with his fellow man, he was able to offer the same amount of grace that he was given and be able to see compassion for people’s struggles with compassion rather than judgment. Maybe that’s the man with 2. And again, the savior says, hooray, you got it, right? Maybe the man who only required one portion of grace, one talent. Maybe he was the man who just had all of his ducks in a row, was able to accomplish anything. I’m saying man, because the scriptures always say man, you know, but this applies to all of us, was able to do everything that needed to be done, always. And, and in his interactions with others, he expected them to also do all of the things. And he was doing all the things they needed to do all of the things. So when the savior comes, he, he’d been swimming fast, right? He swim swam fast and he swam far, and he thought others should swim as well. So when the savior came, he expected to be pat on the he expected the savior to pat him on the back and thank him just like me in my in my dream I had of the parable of the sinking ship and instead, He like he says to the savior, look, look, I didn’t even need your grace. I did it all on my own, and that is what the savior has no use for. So again, I’m not claiming these are the only interpretations of these parables, but there is so much here that we can learn from all of them. When we go to look at the, when we have the New eyes to see the young woman in the picture, the gospel of grace preached throughout scriptures by the master teacher most profoundly. And so, let’s just go back to the accusations against, um, Julie Hanks that’s that motivated this entire topic, this podcast. I want to again point out these things that I think should be so clear to us, but we learn in scripture that Jesus is not the accuser. Jesus defeats the accuser accuser.

[01:22:01] Revelation 12:10. Now has come salvation and strength, and the kingdom of God and the power of Christ, for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accuses them before our God day and night. It is Satan who is the great accuser. It is. The spirit of accusation that the savior has no use for and, and casts into outer darkness according to the parables. Um, Jesus does not accuse. Jesus rarely even commands, as we said of the woman. Jesus heals. Jesus empowers and loves and miraculously heals and blesses. He does not need more accusers in his kingdom. He needs more helpers, right? He needs more people who see what this really is about and who get over themselves. And give their hearts to the Lord and fall on their faces in gratitude. And then out of their love of God and their love of the fellow Nancy, Jesus, how can I help? So I want to, um, just go on and talk about this a little bit, the difference between self-righteousness and true Christian humility and charity that that is really our goal. I just think What what these guys are doing, going through conference talks, listening to conference, or reading your scriptures with an attitude of accusing others, finding things to use against other people, to bludgeon them with. I had that happen to me at this last conference before a talk was even fully over. I had gotten, uh, uh, I can’t remember if someone posted about me or responded on on my posts, quoting that talk at me, telling me what I needed to do differently. I just think that is, it’s a yucky feeling, and it is just the best definition of self-righteousness. I’m so righteous that I can listen to these sermons to tell other people what they need to do, rather than saying, Lord, help me to hear what I need to do, right? I think that we just Need to not do that. Please never, never, never do that. And if, if any of us ever feel the inclination to do that, instead go, oh God, I’m in this energy. Can you please help me to be filled with charity instead, please show me that person that I’m inclined to judge right now, that I’m inclined to use this conference thing to bludgeon them over the head with, to tell them how they should wag my finger at them and tell them what they should be. I, I mean, I promise you that as a parent, That is not what the savior wants from his children, right? That is when, when my kids are all in that energy, parenting is not fun. That is not what we want to be doing to one another. And so often, the people that you are attacking, the people that these guys are really attacking when they’re going after Julie Hanks, they are so often. The ones who are barely hanging on, you know, those of us who have a comfortable seat in the good ship Zion, right,

[01:25:10] for us to sit and point fingers at the ones who can’t, who don’t fit on the ship, who are hanging on desperately to the side, getting plowed by water, trying to get come up for a gulp of air here and there trying so hard to hang on. And we sit there and push their heads under the water and complain that they’re creating too much drag on our ship and they should either get in the boat or get off and All that energy just breaks my heart. It is so opposite of who the savior is and what the savior does, and what we should be doing as would be representatives of him or members of his church. Instead, I see, I see Julie as someone who is out there seeing those people reaching out trying to hold on to them, or at the very least throwing them a life raft, uh, you know, a, a, a life vest saying you need to breathe, you need to breathe. Don’t, I just, you know, and so many people maybe have a comfortable ship until one of their children finds themselves on the outside desperately hanging out or left behind. And then there they’re trying to hold on to their child, and hold on. Like, these are serious situations. There is serious pain that is happening, and it’s our job to see it, to care and to minister to it, not to judge and criticize and condemn from our place of self-righteousness. I just, we have to stop doing this. We have to stop doing this. It divides families, it creates this, this judgment and division. It, it makes us so just opposite of what we are supposed to be. This is not the energy that we can live in, so we can’t continue to set ourselves above another, above others, and it’s so easy to do. That’s why King Benjamin says. He implores us to pray always constantly to check ourselves, to recognize what energy we’re in, because it’s so easy to fall into that. I’ll share another experience I had that taught me this, even though this is already kind of going long, but um, I just, I think this is so important. I, I was having a very profound experience with the Lord that lasted several days at a time when I was being taught some very essential things and important things for me. And during that time, I had been told I needed to pray always. So I was doing my best to keep a continual prayer in my heart. And I was out and about running some errands that I had to do and just praying continually, and I walked into the store and saw these, um, 3 young men who were exactly what I at that time would think of as unworthy, as, um, less righteous, right? How they looked at what they were doing and um And I, my, as I was praying, I said to the Lord, oh Lord, I’m so sorry that you have to look down upon this evil world, and

[01:28:03] walked in and picked up my few things and walked back out, got in the car. And as I was driving away, I, um, all of a sudden realized I was singing. I hadn’t intended to, and I was singing the words, who am I to judge another when I walk in perfectly. In the quiet heart is hidden sorrow that I can’t see. Who am I to judge another, Lord, I would follow me and as soon as I said those words, the face of one of these boys just came right before me with. This sadness and this not accusation but this wondering why, and I was told I sent you to minister and you judged and walked by and that destroyed me. I, I didn’t, I couldn’t go back and find them. I had missed that opportunity and I know now what the Lord was teaching me and. But, but I never, never, never want to do that again. I never want to, in my act of prayer, feel bad for the Lord for the Lord because of how bad my brothers and sisters are. I mean, it just, it, I’m so thankful to have learned more and to not be in that place anymore, but it hurts my heart that I was in that place, and I want to help all of us to avoid being in that place as much as possible. So that we can avoid judging and walking past and instead be the hands of the Lord as he sent us to be, right? See, see the one I believe that we have the calling and the opportunity to, to quite literally help the Lord in his work. I, I just want to finish with a couple of scriptures thank you for sticking around to this. It’s been long, but um. Matthew 25 teaches inasmuch as you have done it unto the least of these, my brethren, you have done it unto me, right? I think that this is actually quite literal. It’s again taught in Mosiah 2:17, and behold, I tell you these things that you may learn wisdom, that you may learn that when you’re in the service of your fellow beings, you’re only in the service of your God. If we truly believe What is taught in Isaiah 53:4, surely he hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows. Yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions. He was bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement of our peace was upon him, and with his stripes we are healed. If we truly believe that the Savior bears the suffering of all mankind, right? Then any suffering that we cause to our fellow man, we put directly on the Savior. And any suffering that we can alleviate, we remove from the savior. We all in our little way, he has the burden as big as infinity, the atonement of mankind, but all of us in our own little way can get in it just to help a little bit. That’s what I want to do. That’s what I think the gospel is. It’s not this, we don’t help the savior by

[01:31:21] self-righteously claiming that we’re not adding anything to his burden. That is not what it’s about at all. It’s about us recognizing. And going, how can I help you, Lord? What love can I exert to others? What suffering can I alleviate? What can I do to help? And that’s what we are called to do. That’s what we’re sent to do, and you’ll notice that the savior is esteemed. He, we, we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted. That might mean that we tend to judge him, right? That we would judge him and walk past cause we would see him as No apparent beauty that men should him desire, right, as someone not really worth paying attention to, and maybe someone that we feel bad that the Lord has to put up with. I, I don’t know, but this is what I do know is that if we want to begin to behold the face of God, if we want to come into the presence of God and behold His face, we first do that by to see the face of God in all of the people that we come into contact with, right? And all of the people that we encounter, those that we tend to judge or look past or write off, or even refuse to see, we can instead to we can learn to instead see them as the savior in disguise. And We can always ask. How we can help, who we are here to minister to. Now, again, we’re not doing this to earn our own salvation, right? This, this message can fulfill us with fear of like, how can I do enough? What do I? That’s not the point either, because we’re not doing it to earn our salvation. And we are taught that we can’t run faster than we have strength. That’s not the point. This is the Savior’s work. We don’t need to be the savior. We just have the opportunity to be his helpers if we desire to, and if we will open our hearts and minds and begin every day asking, Lord, what would you have me do today? And I can’t tell you what he Huge difference this understanding has made in my own life. When I used to have the external locus of control and have my list of obligations and things that I thought I had to accomplish to even consider myself worthy or be worthy in my own sight. I was not happy. I used to go to bed, continually demoralized, depressed, feeling worthless, and Not wanting to do it anymore, not wanting to face another day because I knew I would just be exhausted again and always running faster than I had strength, but never accomplishing even a fraction of what I felt I had to accomplish to do it well. When I learned to change and instead give my day to God. Say, God, what would you have me do today? Then all of a sudden, that shifted, and truly I was able to, the, the things that I thought were so important before either started mattering less, or they somehow got done, or they were able to wait, and I was able to accomplish the things that the Lord wants me to accomplish. And Able to go to bed at night in a

[01:34:24] feeling of gratitude and peace and joy and and loving my life. It’s not by any means stress free or easy, but it is entirely different. And one part I didn’t include in that parable that maybe I should just throw in the parable of the sinking ship, but I learned that. If I’m down in the water with everybody else, I can’t really help anybody. I need to learn to walk on the water like Jesus Christ does. I, in terms of, I need to know the voice of the Lord well enough to be able to truly follow the instructions that are given to me and to know what the Lord wants me to do to help. And that’s what we’re striving to do is to come so close to the Lord and to know his voice so well that we can be his helpers in the way that he would have us do. That enlivens and ennobles and doesn’t exhaust us beyond what we have strength. And so, um, I wanna just go on in closing and talk to the people who think that there’s not room for people like Julie, Hanks, or me in this church, I want to read this scripture. 1 Corinthians 12:20. But now are they, are they many members, but yet one body, and the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee, nor again the head to the feet. I have no need of you. Nay, many more those members of the body which seem to be more feeble are necessary, and those members of the body which we think to be less honorable upon these we bestow more abundant honor. And our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness, for our comely parts have no need, but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honor to the part which lacked, that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care. For another. We are all members of the body of Christ, and we have our differences, our different strengths, our different weaknesses, our different tendencies to judge or or whatever it is. I, my heart is hoping. That we can learn as a people to have room for everybody, that we can err on the side of grace, on the side of inclusion, rather than this on the side of exclusion. I, for, for those who want to silence Julie Hanks and say there’s not room for her message in this church, you’re not, you are hurting her, but you’re not only hurting her. All of the people who find value in her message, who resonate with the things she teaches, you’re hurting all of them. As well, and making them wonder if there’s room for them in the church. And the same goes for me. Uh, these, these people going after her and people going after me are accused, make the accusation of that she’s leading people out of the church. And I would say that is, that is about as false as it could be because people are resonating with her if they’re struggling, right? The thing that is leading people out of the church is this false under. Standing of the gospel and the atonement. This accusing nature, this intention to say there’s not room for you here. You have to be just like me, or, or we don’t want you. We don’t want the extra drag on the outside of the ship. That is what does violence to the body of Christ. That is what causes people to leave much more than, than anything else ever could. And so if we want to Be guardians of the kingdom in any way, we should start by learning compassion,

[01:37:50] by learning charity, the thing that the Lord says this is all about anyway. So this, um, we have to remember, it’s just amazing to me that people get into this energy because it’s all over in the scriptures. You remember that the savior was constantly criticized and one of the things he was criticized for was for associating with publicans and sinners, right? How dare you talk to those people? I’ve had Heard those same accusations made about Julie Hanks. And you’ll remember what the savior says. They that be that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. Meaning, I strongly believe those who realize that they are sick and are open to healing, right? Those who see their weakness, those who the sheep that realize they are lost and thus are willing to be picked up and carried home. He continues on, I will have mercy and not sacrifice. Again, I think the message is so clear that the What the Savior wants from us is for us to love our fellow man, to multiply the talents of grace that he has given to us, right? For I am not, I, he wants that more than he wants us to check off the list of obligations of obedience to law. He says, for I am not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance, just again. The righteous who have no need of repentance because they are the self-righteous. That’s who the savior is speaking to and about those who accused him. We’re doing the same thing again. How do we not see that? So, um, I want to focus on one thing for the clothes. There’s one more thing that we have to address because it is the point of everything we have and everything that we have been given. And it’s another witness or confirmation of the things that I’ve been saying here. And I think that it is the the way that we can learn to become the savior’s helpers. It’s repeated again in the New Testament and in the Book of Mormon. So 1 Corinthians 13:1. Though I speak with the tongue of tongues of men and of angels and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass or a tinkling symbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith so that I could remove mountains and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Can we hear this? The message is that Christ wants us to meet all of his fellow men with charity, with mercy, with humility and love and understanding. Nothing that it doesn’t matter what calling we have, what mighty talents we have, how much gospel understanding or personal righteousness we have, none of that is the point. It is how we view and love and minister to our fellow man. Again, Not earn, we never earn our salvation, right? We’re all completely dependent and reliant. The question is, are we gonna swim away to prove what fast swimmers we are? Or are we going to stay and learn to be one with the savior so that we can help, right? Mos Maroni 744. And if I, and if a man be meek and lowly in heart and confessed by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, again, come to that place of recognition. Of our own brokenness and our own nothingness and our complete reliance on God, he must needs have charity, for if he have not charity, he is nothing. Wherefore he must needs have charity, and charity suffereth long and is.

[01:41:27] Kind and envieth not and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil and rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, and endureth all things. Wherefore, my beloved brethren. If ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail. But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever. And whoso was found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with Him. When I think about all of the things that we’ve covered today and how consistently and beautifully they are taught throughout the Book of Mormon, and how the writers of the Book of Mormon beg us to have eyes to see and ears to hear and to believe the words that are in the Book of Mormon. I just, I just want to cry because this is the gospel. This is the message. I so strongly believe that they were trying to get through to us somehow. God wants us to believe. The Book of Mormon, that not only the teachings of the Book of Mormon and polygamy, yes, that is a critically important part, but also even much more importantly, this understanding of the gospel of grace, of the complete power of Jesus Christ, and our utter dependence on merit and reliance on his merits and on the gift of grace, rather than in our own efforts. Don’t misunderstand. When we are saved by Christ, it’s true. Our hearts begin to change and we manifest good works. This isn’t, we don’t need to dumb this down, make it into a straw man and something into something that it’s not. I think that it should be clear what this gospel really is about, especially for those of us who have the Book of Mormon. And I just want to close with 3rd Nephi 26:9, because it’s so important. And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first to try their faith. And if it shall so be that they shall believe these things, then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them. Please, let’s start believing the Book of Mormon. Let’s believe the truth that it teaches and believe the false doctrines that it exposes. That is what I Trying to accomplish and I really thank you for sticking around today. I would love to have your hear your thoughts and feedback and have this discussion continue because I think it is so important. So thank you for joining me today for 132 Problems. I am Michelle Stone and I will see you next time.