40: How to Talk to Children About Problems in the Church? | 132 Problems: Revisiting Mormon Polygamy

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In response to the many times people have asked for advice about how to talk to their children about the things they are learning, my two oldest children, Christian and Lincoln, sit down with me to talk about their experience being raised with evolving understandings of the church and gospel of Jesus Christ.
Please listen to the end — the final testimony is the best part.

Transcript

[00:01] Michelle: Welcome to another special edition of 132 Problems Revisiting Mormon Polygamy. Several times I have had people ask me how they should talk to their children. This can be such an unsettling thing to have, um, your beliefs shift and change and things that you always took for granted and knew for sure, have them come under uncertainty. And, um, a lot of parents can really struggle with that uncertainty and knowing how to go forward and talk to their children. So I Certainly do not claim to have all of the answers, but I thought maybe it would be helpful to hear a little bit about how we have navigated this in our family. So please stay tuned for this conversation I have with my two oldest children, Christian and Lincoln. Um, we had some small technical things happening, so forgive any little hiccups or mistakes or errors, but I hope you will find the discussion at least, um, enlightening and maybe encouraging and give you some ideas and some direction that you hopefully will be able to take and go. Forward in your full inspiration as the parent of your children to be able to navigate this delicate situation with grace and faith and love. That is my hope for this episode. So thank you for joining us for episode 40. My name is Michelle Stone, and this is 132 Problems. I’m here with my two oldest boys, Christian and Lincoln, and they have very kindly agreed to help me talk about this topic, the challenge that parents whose views, their perspectives on the church either are or are becoming nuanced, how to raise children in that perspective. So I asked these, these two to help me because they were my oldest two kids and were their front, front and center when I had that same experience, when I began to have a change in perspective. So we’re going to kind of talk about how it went in our family and the pros and cons, good and bad, so that hopefully all of you can learn something about that. So, um, Lincoln, do you want to go ahead and introduce yourself first? Would you mind? Tell us a little bit about you?

[02:23] Lincoln Stone: Not a problem, yeah, my name is Lincoln Stone. Um, I am the, the guy who puts these videos up on YouTube. Um, so if you have any hate mail or love notes, send them to me. Um, and then, uh, yeah, I’m a classical acting major, um, I graduate in December, um. And that’s about it as far as I go.

[02:44] Michelle: Thanks, Lincoln. Christian, do you want to give us an introduction?

[02:49] Christian: Sure, yeah, so I’m the oldest of the stone children. Um, I graduated with a bachelor’s degree in commercial music with an emphasis in trombone performance, and then I’m currently in law school at the University of Florida. I’m married with two little kids and my family is the the light of my life.

[03:14] Michelle: Thank you so much. So, OK, obviously, like, like a homeschool mom, you know, this is the, the good fruit. I use these two kids to make me look good. I wish I could take all the credit. These are great, these are great kids. So I guess the first question that I have for you guys, and I hope that you’ll join in with any thoughts that you have along the way, but the first question I want to ask is, do you have any memory, memories specifically that come to mind of sort of the faith transition. That I went through. Do you guys remember that happening in your lives? I’m not talking specifically about your faith transitions. We’ll get to that. But mine, and I don’t know what the best word is, because I know some people use the word faith crisis. I don’t recognize that in myself. I guess it’s a struggle for growth is how I perceive it. So does either of you have any distinct recollections of me kind of struggling to struggling in or with the church or any church teachings?

[04:14] Lincoln Stone: Yeah, um, I do remember that a bit, um. I, I think most of, you know, what you could term a faith crisis or transition was going on when I was a bit younger, um, but I, I do remember kind of having the having the feeling of, um, You know, that, that, that everything wasn’t wasn’t, you know, perfect, happy Valley in the way that that that kind of I had grown up with expecting, I guess a bit more. Um. And it wasn’t like scary, but it was certainly, um, it was different sometimes, and it was, yeah, an interesting sensation, I guess.

[04:51] Michelle: OK, so you do, I guess you probably were about 9 when I started really, and, you know. And, yeah. 9 or 10 is when you remember, OK, and then it continued all through your teenage years. OK, thanks. So you just have a had a feeling, but you don’t, nothing specific comes to mind. So Christian, how about you? I’m just trying to give parents and I an insight into how kids might experience these things.

[05:15] Christian: Well, I, yeah, I. I remember when I was 789. We were really in the Cub Scouts, really into general conference, everything was pretty by the book, I think, um.

[05:34] Michelle: I was a super, super, super Mormon super mom. Like you guys had all of your articles of faith memorized. I that was when I was holding down 4 callings at a time. OK.

[05:44] Christian: Right. And um I, I do, I To my recollection, I feel like we kind of, it kind of happened to us at the same time. Maybe you started questioning things earlier, but um I do, I saw, I think I was I remember it happening a little bit later than what what Lincoln had said, like maybe when I was 1314 is when I really started. Noticing that there was a shift, um, but I guess maybe it started earlier with you and then it just kind of naturally transitioned to all of us, um. But yeah, that’s kind of my, my recollection, and then, you know, since, since that point when I was about 13, yeah, we’ve definitely had a lot of conversations and a lot of questions.

[06:40] Michelle: OK, thanks for thanks for answering that. It’s really it’s good to get the kids’ perspective cause I know I was actually I was actually, I don’t want to say struggling, I was just, I found challenges in the church earlier than that, that, you know, I was trying to navigate like. Ah, this doesn’t feel as good as I want it to, but um, yeah, I guess when I started to go, wait, I think the gospel might be something a little bit different than exactly what the churches are. I think the church isn’t exactly what I thought it is in terms of, there may be some things that don’t feel right to me, is that’s probably when that started happening for me. So, OK. So I guess my, my, um, just personality always has been just, it’s all out there. I wear everything on my sleeve. I’m not good at concealment. I’m not good at, you know, like, like I’m not good at paying attention to who’s listening when I’m talking. And I know that I often got a lot of feedback from people that I wasn’t being careful enough, that like, I needed to not Um, do that to you guys, cause I would weaken your faith. I would put cracks in your not yet fully founded foundation. And so, um, but I, I never felt good to me. I never felt like I could, um, tell my kids things I didn’t believe or hide my my thoughts from my kids. So I know that. And maybe my experience was different cause it was much more gradual, so you guys just kind of grew up in it, where I’ve always just been someone who wants to talk about things and wants to think about things, and who has really loved critical thinking, right? So I guess my question is, do you guys feel like you wish you had been protected a little bit more from challenges that were discussed in our home? Do, do you think it maybe I should have asked that question in more, why don’t you guys just tell me the questions you want me to ask?

[08:38] Lincoln Stone: Oh, that’s a, that’s a really good question. Um, I think, um. I don’t necessarily wish that we were more protected. Um, there were, there were times certainly growing up and even now where, you know, it’s like, oh, it would be easier if everything was just kind of, you know, if, if we could just not think about stuff, um, or, or not, you know, not, not question things, I guess, or, or look deeply into things, cause sometimes that seems easier, um. But I don’t, I don’t think that it was, it ever has felt like I wasn’t being protected or like I, I, I, I like not feeling sheltered. I liked kind of being exposed to different things and finding those things out.

[09:21] Michelle: OK, so you’re, it sounds to me like the conversations we have now, cause we still have lots of challenging conversations with very diverse perspectives. Those are more those are somewhat challenging to you now, more than you remember them having been in the past.

[09:37] Lincoln Stone: Um, potentially, I think there’s different factors that change and can affect that. Um, I don’t know that I could say that one is like more or less challenging. I think it just depends.

[09:48] Michelle: OK, thank you.

[09:51] Christian: Yeah, I, I don’t wish that we’ve been more protected or sheltered, um. I, I think the only thing was sometimes is like, OK, can we not talk about eternally weighty things tonight. my friends are talking about this stuff with their parents, um, but no, I don’t, I don’t wish that we had, um. Taking a less Investigative approach. Um, I, yeah, I’m kind of the same as Lincoln. I enjoy the conversations I I, and especially now, um, I’m really grateful for that. I Kind of training and, and talking about hard things and being willing to rock the boat a little bit.

[10:41] Michelle: OK, OK, I like that. So I guess I, so I, I, I didn’t know the term critical thinking when I was a young mom. I remember when I first learned about critical thinking, how I was like, I love that, that’s what I do, you know, I kind of, I really resonated with it. And so, um, so I wanna know like, Do you guys feel like in any way that you were different from your peers? Cause I, I think I just naturally automatically tended to raise critical thinkers to focus on that. But um then once I learned about it, I think I made it more intentional. Like I know we watched, I had you guys watch that Yale course on philosophy that’s available on YouTube or is that Harvard that oh that beginning year Harvard course. I was like, guys, we’re watching this, you know, you know, did you feel like it made you different from your peers? In ways that you either struggled with or that you liked, like did you feel like you were different in how we addressed things and and how was that for you guys?

[11:45] Lincoln Stone: Uh, yeah, you go first.

[11:48] Michelle: You, I should throw it to you, Christian, I’ll throw to you.

[11:50] Christian: OK. I, I, it’s hard to, it’s hard to kind of speculate on. You know, if I’m, if I was different than my peers, cause I I don’t know. I don’t know. Um, I do, I do feel like we spent more time talking about kind of intense, important topics, um. I, I, I got the sense that like my friends’ families weren’t talking about the same stuff as as we were, you know, around the dinner table, um. And one thing that I think I am Grateful for is that. Um, like I had an experience when we were going to some high school band competition or something and people were, were making fun of, um, the, the women in the priesthood movement, and it was like, you know, 30 people on the bus or something, and I said something like, I don’t think it’s right to mock people’s beliefs. And so I guess being being willing. To stand up to the crowd is something that I think is really valuable, um. Going back, I don’t know if I was right or wrong. I can’t really remember what my argument was, but. But um I think that is a crucial skill, and I think that grew out of our, our questioning, um, really accepted embedded beliefs in our culture and, and willing being willing to, um, I’m gonna say attack those. We weren’t attacking them, but just really think about them and question them.

[13:37] Michelle: I like that. So you feel like it helped you be a little more independent, a little more um able to resist the crowd and stand on your own? Right. I like that. So, um, OK, let me, let me do a follow up and then I’ll ask Lincoln both questions as well. So how was your church experience? Do you remember being 1213, 1415, and were you taught things that you like right now, you know, I, I showed in the episode, I know we always saying follow the savior from the time you were little. Like that’s just a little example. We were taught things that we didn’t necessarily um agree with. I know that after church often I would talk to you guys about what your lessons were and then we would have A conversation about what, you know, what I thought of them or what dad thought of them. So I want to know how that affected you, your experiences at church.

[14:27] Christian: Yeah, um, So, Going back to kind of the beginning of my Faith transition, whatever term you want to use, uh, I think the first thing that went was this belief that the prophet and the apostles are infallible and cannot lead us astray. That was like, that’s what I remember kind of falling apart and with when that falls apart, a lot of other things kind of follow because The church is so built on that, that belief for some reason, um. So, and then yeah, it it was hard. Seminary was hard in a lot of ways, church was hard because that’s such a core teaching, you know, I And It’s, it’s, it’s hard too when you’re young because sometimes it’s, it’s difficult to separate the good from the bad. You know, going to church now is a lot easier to kind of see. I don’t have to take all this as a, as a package deal. I can, I can kind of sift through and and separate the what I agree with from what I don’t agree with, but um. Yeah, I remember a lot of comments were made by teachers that they’re and and they just kind of Cited to general authorities as like basically synonymous with with God, and I always had a problem with that. Um That I think that was the biggest one for me, um. I’m trying to think of any other, any other challenges, and then And this I think I was sometimes a little too combative as well and trying to get people to see, you know, that that’s not how it was, but, or that’s, that’s not how it is. We, we need to think more deeply, but I, I did struggle with kind of feeling like we just accepted things on a really surface shallow level and we’re Afraid to dig deeper, or at least we’re very content to leave things. Um, At kind of a, to take things like kind of a superficial debt.

[16:38] Michelle: OK, I really appreciate you sharing your experience you had. Thank you. And then, um, Lincoln, let me ask you those two same questions. The first, I think, was, did you feel different from your peers and then kind of how did that translate into your church experience?

[16:55] Lincoln Stone: Definitely, um, yes, I felt different. Um Uh, sometimes, um.

[17:02] Michelle: We should add that you also, we homeschooled, so that was also a big difference.

[17:07] Lincoln Stone: Well yeah, but even, even when I went to, you know, I got my, my, my associate’s degree, I did concurrent enrollment in high school, and even there with the the pri, you know, primarily homeschooling and deep thinker population, there were just a lot of people that hadn’t asked those same questions. Um, and so what I would talk to them, it would kind of be weird, you know, I kind of feel like Uh, like I was strange or something or it was stuff that they’d never heard of, um. So that definitely makes you feel like makes you feel different a little bit, but I never felt um bad about it. Like I never wanted to not think that way. Um, I think it was just, but, but definitely a feeling of of being different, yeah. Um, and then as far as, as far as the the second half of the question, I think it’s very similar to Christian. Once you, once you start, and that’s why I think church history kind of is what does in so many people’s testimonies, um, or their, you know, their belief in the church. is because we have kind of really Grown onto the idea that that people cannot be wrong, you know, that people in positions of authority must be correct. And what that does when you have imperfect people in positions of authority who won’t always be correct, is that you have to bend your brain into so many different ways to try and make everything they do make sense. Um, I mean, imagine trying to do that with literally anything else with American history or anything, you know, we’ve done it for a while, you know, we talked about, you know, these manifest destiny and all that stuff that that who knows, but You know, when, when you have those things in history that you’ve had to bend your brain into for so many years, and then you finally realize that like, oh, this, this thing happened and whatever it is that’s your breaking point, that can destroy pretty much all of that. Um, and so, yeah, that definitely did it for me. And like Christian said, it’s, it’s hard to have nuance when you’re young, I think, um, and once those things start to break, then everything kind of breaks and and it’s easy to kind of throw it all out together. Um, and I think finding the nuance to be OK with the stuff that’s, that’s not right, and, and find the stuff that is, um, that comes later. I think, but I would say that it was a very similar thing for me.

[19:15] Michelle: Hey, I love, I, I’m so glad we’re doing this. I just love what you guys have shared. I think it’s so important. So what I’m here or part of what I’m hearing, I’m just gonna like latch onto a part of it. It sounds to me that you guys went through that similar faith transition, faith journey, I, which I guess for me, I look at as going from being church dependent to more independent, God dependent, right? Like instead of church centered, you’re kind of God centered in a way. It sounds to me like you guys just went through that earlier than a lot of people in my generation or other generations. And right, like, like you had the struggles, but you did it earlier. And so I guess to me, that looks like kind of a potentially good thing. So I have two questions regarding that. Are you guys glad you struggled through that earlier instead of later? Like, are you glad you did that at 1314, 1516 instead of, you know, you’re still quite young, but in your twenties, as you can speak to that. And also, um, shoot, I had a second part of that that I wanted to ask. Oh, so I think that scares a lot of parents. So I want to know why you guys think you ended up still on the side of faith and activity in the church instead of somewhere else, cause that’s a wild card once you go. Into that faith journey.

[20:34] Lincoln Stone: Um, I stayed for the basketball. Um, now, um. No, I, I, I think that um I’m, I’m very glad that it was earlier in life, um, because it’s, it’s the stakes are lower, I think. Um, it’s a lot easier to go through those things as a teenager and kind of figure out what your philosophy is or how you approach the gospel and what that means to you, um, when you still have a support system in place. And then for me at least, kind of going through that and figuring it out, and then going on a mission, when I, when I came to that decision, you know, coming back around, you know, a lot of years later, um, or a couple of years later, you know, I felt like a lot of the time. Um, that prepared me more to go on a mission and be prepared, kind of, um, to find the truth and to teach true things, and to not be super alarmed when I was confronted with things that I might not have heard about before if we, if we’d done it differently. Um, and there’s a lot of kids I know that here’s the thing, at some point in your life, you’re, I think everybody has to come to terms with what their faith means, and you’re put in a position where you have to start to analyze things. And a lot of kids that I know do that now after the mission, when they’re not, when they don’t have a support structure, when they’re not going on a mission later, you know, um, and that, and that’s, I think, why a lot of young people leave the church, because eventually these things your your testimony is going to get tested, you know. Um, you’re not just gonna be left alone to do your thing your whole life. That just, it doesn’t work like that, you know. And so having that happen earlier, I think for me it was a really great thing, um, and I’ve been grateful for that because it does make it easier to be active in the church now even being in theater, which is not a community that really is conducive to that, um. You know, or being in college, you know, living away from home and all these different things, it, um, it makes it easier for sure to have already made those choices after having gone through that process.

[22:32] Michelle: Excellent. OK. OK. I really like what you shared. Thank you, Christian, can you speak to the same things?

[22:39] Christian: Yeah, I, I pretty much second everything Lincoln said. I And that was gonna be my, my caveat to what I said about when you’re young, it’s hard to kind of discern or or or take the good and and leave the bad, but I would much rather Um, have that happen in those kind of formative years when everything’s changing anyway, you know, as a teenager, a lot of things just change. Um, then, say on a mission, um, that, that, that would have been really tough, I think, being on a mission and Going into it convinced that. You know, that this is the one true church and that everything you’re teaching is correct and then and then being exposed to differing beliefs, I think that would have been really hard and so I’m, I’m glad that I had sort of that perspective going in to to the to my mission, which was an incredible experience, um. And your second question is a really good one. I have thought about that a lot, um, about why I stayed In the church and also um kept the faith, and I think that part of it is This experience of Having a a a change in core values. Um, it’s like you said, I think we became more God-dependent, and so it really opened me, at least up to personal revelation, and I had some really, um, some really good experiences. With, um, kind of getting to, to feel God in my life, and that, I think that was an anchor in a way that kind of kept me. From Going too far afield, um, And then like I said, I, for some reason it just felt like I was supposed to serve a mission and um I think it was good having a support system like Lincoln mentioned a family who, you know, even though you guys were struggling with stuff, but I, you were more more vocal with it. I think dad has had a lot of questions too, um, but you guys still went to church, um, and I think that was a good example for all of us to see kind of the nuance like Lincoln was talking about. And so, um, yeah, and then serving a mission, it was, it was such a, such a good experience in a lot of ways, you know, personally, my development, I feel like I grew a lot as a person, partly from the routine and also from the there are a lot of really good values in the church, like serving people and trying to bring truth to people. And now, as I have a little more perspective, I don’t, I don’t think that The core doctrines are taught. In any other venue as well as they are in the church, and so that’s part, a big part of why I stay now.

[25:38] Michelle: I appreciate that. So I’m hearing, so again I’m gonna just latch on to one part of what you guys talked about. It sounds to me like you both think that having gone through that phase transition and being like, I know that Lincoln, you read the CES letter before your mission, I think, um, Christian, I don’t know if you’ve read the actual letter, but I know that we just maybe you did and we discussed the topic.

[26:00] Christian: I read through it through a lot of it. I don’t remember if I read

[26:02] Michelle: the whole thing. Yeah, well, I guess it’s always bigger and changing and messier and messier, but, but yeah, like you read at least you were familiar with those issues, right? And I, it sounds to me like you both think that served you well on your missions, that that helped you be more prepared and better missionaries. And um, so I kind of wanna ask a couple of things again, but I do want to ask how this sort of Not naive, shall we say, like really um um informed, potentially dangerously informed perspective that you had, and also your sort of nuanced faith where you didn’t put the, the teaching of the prophet can never lead us astray central to your belief system. I want to know how that affected you on your missions, good and bad. Did it create challenges on your missions with Companionships or with leadership or, you know, how, how did that experience go? And then, oh, and then, yeah, I’ll ask that. And then the next question I wanted to ask just so we’ll remember, and you can answer them both right now if you want to. I also wanted to hear about your, your decisions of going on a mission. In fact, let’s go here first, you know, we’ll talk about this first, like, I know that for me, with both of you guys, I guess, more particularly with Christian, cause you were first and then I kind of had the answer, and I was a little more settled with Lincoln. I really struggled with the idea of you going on a mission. Should you go or not. I know I looked up all kinds of other experiences and, you know, and I remember distinctly when I had the answer that I, I wanna say that you should go, but I couldn’t get an answer for you, but that I want, I felt strongly that a mission was the right thing for you as your mother, you know. So I want to know, and I, and I, and I, anyway, I wanna hear something about your answers to go on a mission, and then also how your perspectives affected your mission experience. Those are my two questions.

[28:00] Christian: Sure, um, I don’t remember. Um, any real like big. Answer to go on a mission. I don’t, I don’t recall like a big transformative experience that that made that decision for me. I think like I said, it just kind of felt like something that I, I wanted to do and I should do. And it was tough because one of, one of our cousins, I think, who I looked up to before his mission, came back from his mission, a very different person that I, I didn’t respect. As much and that, you know, that’s tough cause you see some something like that and you think, I don’t wanna go on a mission and then come back. A a total jerk.

[28:46] Michelle: Can you give a little bit of insight so people know what you’re talking about. What was the, what were the attributes that you didn’t find appealing?

[28:52] Christian: Yeah, so I thought, so this particular cousin before his mission, I thought he was really genuine, a cool guy, um, you know, just, just a, a good person. He came back from his mission was really Arrogant and self-righteous, um. And Kind

[29:09] Michelle: of knew all the answers,

[29:11] Christian: kind of knew all the answers, and I, I just have never, I’ve never liked that. I always I think that kind of behavior is, is kind of gross. So, um, I didn’t want to, I I didn’t want to be like that, um. And then, you know, I think. Yeah, I don’t think there was any big um Huge experience that made the decision for me, but it was just, I, I just thought this is what I wanna do, um. And then as far as how my my views affected me and my mission, um, I remember One experience when I was really new in the mission, um, where I And looking back, I should not have done this, but I was on exchanges with another elder, and, and we went and taught two of his investigators that were on a baptismal day, and I kind of asked why they wanted to get baptized and in, in maybe a more challenging way than I should have cause at that point I was still really like why like do we really want people to join this church? Do, do we? When we don’t have as many answers as we think we do. And uh So that was one where I think going back to being a little too Maybe combative is too strong of a word, but being a little too Excited to expose the things that I that I’d found. Um, that was so that was probably the most Negative experience as far as my beliefs and the church and then throughout my mission, you know, they just kind of synthesized. I was able to To really um glom onto and, and, and love the things that I loved and that I felt were were good, and then, um, you know what, I, I, I don’t think I ever testified. that the leaders of the church are Um, that’s certainly not infallible, and I don’t know that I ever testified that they are prophets here and revelators, that’s not something that I felt, um. That I had ever had confirmed to me. Um, and so I think, and I had a, I had a, my first mission present was great, um, especially, and I never felt like I was pressured to say things that I didn’t think were true.

[31:40] Michelle: Uh, I, I wish for that kind of mission experience for everybody. Thank you for sharing that, cause I hope that that gives parents some piece of the, some peace about being able to send their kids on missions if they feel good about that, if they feel like that’s the right thing to do, cause I definitely have felt like that was a huge blessing that you both were able to serve, and I felt like it. You know, I, I feel like it was a really good opportunity for you guys and really good growth occurred on your mission. So thanks for sharing that. I’m glad to know that it didn’t make it harder necessarily. So. And thanks for being vulnerable and sharing something that sounds like was hard, like that you had regret and had to repent of somewhat. But it sounds like you learned a lot of good from that experience even. So maybe that, you know, you felt bad about that, but then you learned how to approach it better in the future, so.

[32:31] Lincoln Stone: Right.

[32:32] Michelle: Linkin, will you share those two?

[32:35] Lincoln Stone: Yeah, sure. Um, I don’t think it made my mission harder, um, much at all. I think it made it better. Um, and the reason is that I, I think it, on the mission you learn that you approach people where they’re at. Um, and so a lot of people on, on my mission didn’t need to be testified to the, you know, of, of the leaders of the church, but what we taught a lot more was that God has the capacity to speak with his children and does today, um, which I, which is really the principle of what that kind of lesson is getting at. Um, is that he spoke to Joseph Smith and he speaks to us today. Um, You know, and obviously I, I think that, you know, I definitely taught like that the leaders of the church are inspired, um. And, and I never felt pressured, I don’t think to say anything I didn’t believe, um, but I mean, I tried to make sure that everything that I did say, um, I was sure of. And, and so, yeah, like, I don’t know. I don’t think it made it harder much at all, cause I think I was able to give more. Convincing, or no, I don’t wanna say convincing, that sounds like a bad word, more, more genuine testimony of things, um, because I, I testified of things that I was sure of, you know, and I tried to be honest about that. And to be completely honest, I think that It’s hard to say like better missionaries and best missionaries and things like that because everybody is different. But the missionaries I most enjoyed serving with, and that I, I felt were the most um led by the spirit and helped the people the most were the ones that were honest. Um, and we’re honest about maybe doubts that they had had or had, um, and, and that you can be pressured to not do as a missionary. You can be pressured to act like you know everything. And there’s a difference between being honest and spilling every possible objection you might have ever had into somebody’s lap, you know, you have to know where people are at, um. But, but missionaries who were honest and could say, hey, you know, this is something that I struggled with, or this is something that I’m still trying to figure out, you know, but I know this, and you help people kind of recognize the true principles that testimonies are based on, and those were the missionaries that I most enjoyed serving with, and the missionary that I tried to be. Um, and that I think helps people to recognize the truth and things, um, and to be willing to go act on the invitations that we make a bit better, you know, cause it can be intimidating when we are asking people to pray about things, um, and gain a testimony of things. We, there were a couple people I taught where it was like an immediate, you know, they prayed about it and they knew it was true, and it was crazy. But there are a lot of people, it’s a more gradual thing. And you have to help them to, to feel the the spirit and recognize those answers, and it can be intimidating for them to do that. A lot of missionaries don’t think about this. If you, as a missionary, seem like you know everything and that you’ve never doubted anything and you’re perfect, that can be super intimidating for somebody who’s just learning about the gospel, because they might think, oh wow, I don’t feel that that strong of a conviction yet. I must be doing it wrong, and that can and that can scare people and actually, you know, hinder their Their progress of coming to know God and coming to listen to the spirit. Um, and so, yeah, I think that’s a lot of words, but I think that um it helps because it makes you more genuine, and you can, you can answer questions better, um, cause you’re more prepared for them, and you can be more honest with the people that you’re teaching and help them to gain a testimony in more effective ways, I think.

[36:06] Michelle: OK, I love what you guys are sharing, so. It’s I it seems to me that not many missionaries are going to serve a mission without being Without being at least introduced, if not like lambasted with all of the issues of the church, right? Like, like the internet, uh, I mean, everything is different now. So if missionaries don’t know the stuff, their investigators or contacts are going to know a lot of the stuff or gonna find it out quickly, and maybe the easy answers that we want to give sort of the can like like the this is the answer to this, or that we don’t know why, but you know. Maybe it’s better to have struggled and to be able to acknowledge, yeah, that’s hard, that’s hard for me. I don’t understand it. It might be better than a can dancer of, oh, it’s perfectly. OK, is that, is that kind of what you’re both

[36:59] Christian: saying? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And yeah, that stuff has a way of finding you, especially on a mission, and I think it’s, it has a an outsized effect maybe because you’re, you’re giving your whole life to this cause and you’re, you know, you’ve moved away from home and you’re going out every day and so any kind of little Doubt or little counterargument, you know, has maybe more weight than it would in in regular life. And so I think a, yes, a genuine answer is always better than a can’t answer in my experience. I don’t, I can’t think of a time where I would prefer somebody to to answer a question I have in a an insincere, you know, pre-prepared way, and I think that As a missionary, you have to rely on the Lord. Like that’s just that that is probably the the best benefit that came into my life through serving a mission. Um, was really learning to rely on the Lord, and I think that um I had a good, I’ve been put in a good place prior to the mission because, you know, I, I think we all kind of learned that we don’t have all the answers and that you have to pray and that things are messy. I think that’s, that’s really a really important thing to know is that life is messy and that the gospel is kind of messy, you know, and it, it It’s so naive to think that as an 18 year old, you’re gonna have all these answers. Like, if I could go back now, I think I’d be a much better missionary just because I have a little more life experience and I could relate with people who have kids and who have, you know, more um important things in their lives. So, Just recognizing that there aren’t clear cut answers to everything is really valuable.

[39:00] Lincoln Stone: Yeah, so I can uh jump on to that, um. I think that uh being prepared as a missionary and having a genuine answer is so important. A lot of times we get conditioned as missionaries into thinking that we need to know everything. And when you’re on a mission, you don’t have access to all of the sources that could provide you with all the information you might need to possibly know. Um, and so having some of that information beforehand is super helpful and being in a place where, like Christian said, you can just try to relate to people more and bear testimony of things instead of trying to prove things, um. That uh That that’s much more effective, um, I think, and a much better experience for the missionary, cause it’s, it’s really awkward when um you’re with your companion and you’re talking to, you know, a pastor of the church who studied the Bible and biblical practices for 20 years and your companion tells them that Jesus drank grape juice, like that’s not a great moment, um, you know, when you kind of have to deal with that, or when you’re teaching somebody. Um, Who uh You’re, you’re teaching, you know, a, a black person, and they ask about why black people couldn’t have the priesthood, you know. And your companion says something that’s not true, you know, um, you have to kind of be prepared to deal with that a little bit, and you don’t want people going away with those bad impressions or those false impressions of what we believe because that can really be detrimental. So, knowing that you don’t know everything, um, and kind of trying to, to examine what you can, that is much more effective, um. And, and, and, and prepares you, I think, to be a better missionary.

[40:45] Michelle: OK, so this, this question I think is important. And so Lincoln, I, I know that you haven’t yet spoken about your process of preparing to go on a mission or deciding to go on a mission. I know that was big for you, but I want to kind of expand that to a bigger question, let you speak to both at the same time, because what I think a lot of the parents, so a lot of parents that are reaching out to me saying, what do I do? Cause, you know, they have children of all ages, including adult and teenager, and How do I talk to my kids, you know, they’re just looking for advice cause it’s so hard to have raised your kids in one mindset and then be like, oh, it’s kind of different now, right? And so I’m I I think that what they’re really feeling, perhaps, is like their foundation is all of a sudden unstable, you know, they are realizing they were on the sand, so they’re dealing with, um, you know, a quicksand situation, not knowing where it will settle. And let’s say this, maybe they’re like paddling in the water, swimming in the ocean with nothing to to put their feet on to rest on, and it’s hard to say, hey kids, jump in here with me when you don’t even know where you are yet, you know. And so I’m, so that’s why I’m what I’m trying to kind of address to some extent. So, um, and I think I, I’m, I’m gonna qualify this question in one more way because I think that Make having in mind where your kids have to end up makes parenting hard, and it makes it scary, right? So, so I was going to ask, like, like I guess I’m trying to give parents some hope and some comfort that if they, if their children are introduced to these difficult issues, it doesn’t mean that they’re going to become atheists and uh you know, but um but at the same time, whether they’re introduced to it or whether they’re not, they may become atheists, right? So it’s more just trusting in God. But I am curious why when, cause I was kind of like, I don’t know what I’m founded on. Hey kids, jump in here with me and let’s all figure it out together. I think that was kind of my approach just by default. Not that I planned it and not that it was easy and comfortable. I just was like, hey, everyone talk to me about this. And you guys have always respected you. We’ve always been really close and we’ve always had great conversations. So we talked about it. So I want to know kind of why, again, what were your Things that kept you connected to God, most importantly, and then secondly, secondarily to the church, cause I think for me, connection to God is the central issue. I want. I want people to be connected to God, to know God, to know how to be led by God. But I also, you know, want people to stay in the church if that’s the right thing for them. So why do you think you ended up going on a mission? Why do you think you have stayed in both of those paths? Or talk about that process.

[43:35] Lincoln Stone: Sure, um, I think the most important thing is that if you are kind of going through a faith transition, or you’re starting to to look at things like this and you’re worried about it. Um, you have to make sure that you’re doing things prayerfully, and that should influence how and if you talk to your kids about it, I think, or how you involve other people in that journey. Um, I don’t think that, I hope none of this is misconstrued as like you have to go tell your kids all of, you know, everything that you’re dealing with, um, cause I just don’t think that that’s that, you know, I, I, I think that in parenting you always are are are not telling your kids everything. But that that should hopefully be done with prayer. I think Christian, I like you said, I think we were both kind of in a place where that was OK. Um, where we were able to deal with that, and, and I never felt like that motivated my questions about the church quite as much. Um, I think I put a lot of those on my own, um. But for me, deciding to go on a mission was, it was a it was a pretty big experience, um. Yeah, so, so I went down, I did a year of college before going on my mission. Um, I think Christian, you did too, if I’m not wrong, um, which, which was great, that one I will plug, go to a year of college if you’re not sure if you trying to go on a mission yet. I, I would say for me it was great, um, and the reason is because I was not, um. I was not really there with the church at all, um, when I came to college, um.

[45:02] Michelle: And let me just clarify, that was more just on your own, like you said, that wasn’t because of me, that was like,

[45:07] Lincoln Stone: at that point actually, if I remember you guys were much more in the church, um, at that point, you kind of come back back around, I think, on that, on that path. Um, because I remember that one of the things I said when I was leaving for college is that I told you I would still go to church every Sunday, um, even though I, I was not really that excited about that. Um, but I think for me that felt like something that I wanted to commit to, that I wanted to have some semblance of a religious something or other in my life and going to church felt like the thing to do. Um, and I had some great roommates who were who were returned missionaries that they all have their individual things, but, but at the very least they, they supported me and still going to church and stuff. They were going to get dates, but, you know, we all went, um,

[45:54] Christian: um, which was good. It’s a natural progression, yeah, it’s, you

[45:58] Lincoln Stone: know, there’s a whole, there’s a whole mission dating analogy that we don’t need to get into about investigators and dates and all that, but, um, but it progresses, um, but. So that that was helpful, and eventually I got to a point at school where I was dealing with a lot of stuff. I was feeling pretty horrible about life in general, um, and it, it got to a point where I just, I decided to start praying again, which I had not done in a while. Um. And I had some pretty uh some pretty strong experiences um because of that. Um, that led to me getting my patriarchal blessing, which I hadn’t done, which led to me make the decision to go on a mission because of a lot of things that happened there. Um. So it was, so for me, I had some pretty big experiences that kind of um helped me make that decision. But what I was grateful for, and what I am still grateful for about that, is that it always felt like my choice. Um, I think that a lot of times kids rebel against doing things because their parents want them to. Um, you know, we see families, I mean, a Utah thing is, you know, you have to go to BYU or you will be disowned, or we won’t buy you a car or whatever thing, you know what I mean, that happens, not to not to call it any BYU parents. um, I know great people there, but, um. That or you know, you have to go on a mission or this thing won’t happen, or, you know, we, we assigned rewards and and love and and and things like that to the choice to go on a mission, which I think is counterproductive, um, cause there are a lot of missionaries that I served with that they were there because their parents wanted them to be there and they did not want to and honestly probably shouldn’t have been there because I think they ended up um hurting their testimonies because they weren’t there for their own reasons, um. And so having it be my decision to go on a mission and something that I decided because of experiences I’d had with the Lord, that made it a much more profound experience for me than I think it would have been otherwise, um, and also being able to share that with people and coming back around to kind of have faith in God again and have those experiences, um, that I, I was very grateful for those experiences on my mission and, and now as well.

[48:10] Michelle: Thanks for sharing that. So that’s interesting. It sounds like just kind of the blessings of having influences around you that led that direction and then this and that inspired you to start praying. But I’m also kind of getting the impression that you were glad that you didn’t feel pressured, especially, like, I know at that time I really wanted you to go. I was hoping you’d have the answer, but I don’t think that there was any I think it was more like, like I was like, have you received an answer about what’s right.

[48:39] Lincoln Stone: There were a few times, there were a few times where it felt like the assumption was that I was going on a mission, and early on those were, those were, um, those were a little bit of setbacks, you know what I mean? People would be like, what are your plans, you know? And I’d be like, well, I don’t really know yet, and you’d kind of, you kind of say like, well, you’re, you’re planning on going on a mission, right? And or something like that. Um, some gentle nudges, if you will, um, and see,

[49:02] Michelle: you can do it really imperfectly and still end up with really great kids. No, no, no,

[49:07] Christian: and it was, it was, it was, it was good.

[49:10] Lincoln Stone: It was good. It, it, it made me feel supported in that choice if I can’t because there’s a pride aspect too, where if you’ve been going away from the church and not planning to do something, it can be hard to admit like, oh, I actually feel like I should go on a mission now. Um, and so I felt like that was a safe thing for me to, to decide on, um, but yeah, I never got to, it never felt like I was being forced into it, which was good.

[49:31] Michelle: OK. I, OK, this is good. Thanks for sharing. So, um, I want to kind of talk about like 11 bit of advice that I think I would give to parents, one thing I’m glad I did, I don’t think that I focused on the negatives with you guys as much as the positives. Meaning, I think that we had always an open dialogue about, say, spiritual experiences. Like, like, I think I was really open about things. I was like, even when I was being challenged with things, it was usually because of something I read in the scriptures or some answer I had, or some insight. So I think we had a lot of discussions about Like just kind of the natural, like you said, assuming the sale, but or the natural assumption that God is involved in our lives and that’s where the answers are coming from, you know? And I think that we, I think that that maybe maybe for parents to kind of, instead of saying, hey, we have to talk about there were these problems in the church, maybe just kind of shifting the narrative away from um faith and profits and more toward connection and experiences with God. I, I guess, kind of one bit of advice I would give. I don’t think we necessarily need to introduce all the negatives, so much as really make sure we’re focusing heavily on the connection to God and the truth that God teaches. So say polygamy, cause I’m assuming that neither of you were big believers in the eternal truth of polygamy when you went on your missions or what, right? Like we’ve I, I’m guessing.

[50:57] Lincoln Stone: Oh, there were jokes about it for sure.

[50:58] Michelle: Oh, sad. OK. But, um, but so I guess even with polygamy, instead of saying, hey kids, I think polygamy was wrong, maybe it would be better to say, oh, look what God teaches about marriage in these scriptures, and then look how much God loves his daughters. Look how much God loves. Us to establish families and, you know, reading through Jacob 3 and talking about how much God loves his daughters might be a good way to introduce these topics. So I’m, so I’m just kind of throwing that in there as I’m hearing what you guys are saying, because I think that that we really actually did more of that. There was for sure the frustration of, oh, I don’t think this feels good. You know, I don’t think this is right. But, um, I also do want to talk about, cause I remember a specific time. I know I’ve talked to you guys about this before, but I used to always listen to those atheist debates, cause I, I am just a thinker. I and then and a discusser and I love to listen to people’s ideas. So I used to listen to debates with the debates with like the big atheists against, you know, theology, and I didn’t always think that they were that well done, you know. But I remember one time in particular, when you guys were both teenagers, I think that there was a question asked that I actually was kind of like, oh my gosh, I don’t know the answer. And And I introduced the question to you. I think it was probably the problem of pain. It was like, why, if there is a God, you’re saying God. Like, created a world where this and this and this and this would happen. So what kind of a monster is God that would let this happen to children and like, you know. And I asked that question to you guys. I’m, I’m wondering if either of you remember any of those kinds of discussions and how they affected you or what you thought about them. Maybe that’s too broad of a question, but were you guys happy? I guess for me, I’m actually kind of happy that that we went through those exercises cause I feel like you guys really learned to think and to seek because the scriptures say that in your mind and in your heart, we need to engage both our brains and our spirits, and without both of them, you know, you don’t have to turn your brain off to have faith. And you can’t think that you have truth if you’re only relying on logic in uh in your limited perspective at that time, cause you can’t see all of the layers and all of the depth. So did you guys like, I know you, Christian already said that, can we not talk about this all the time, but at the same time, like, do you want to raise your kids that way to some extent in challenging, sharing those theological genuine challenges?

[53:33] Christian: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s It’s kind of like a drug. You like can’t get away from it once you start, it’s too, uh, you can’t go back to the The the shallow. Um, the shallow version, I guess, um. So yeah, I absolutely intend to raise my kids like that, and it’s been really interesting um being married to someone who didn’t grow up that same way, but who’s really been open and awesome about, you know, engaging in those discussions with me. Because it’s, you can see that it, you know, it’s not actually as as scary or um I don’t know. I, it doesn’t have to be a a confrontational. Um, event to bring up these questions. If you’re really honest and really wanting answers, it’s, it’s, it’s awesome, you know, um.

[54:32] Michelle: Because the goal of each person isn’t to somehow convince the other or destroy their argument. You’re like you’re both just engaged together and seeking truth, right? That’s the goal of seeking truth.

[54:42] Christian: Yeah, and like just you bringing up the question of why is, why is there pain and how can God allow it? It’s such an interesting hard question that you have to grapple with, but it’s also not, I don’t think a reason to reject God or or reject faith, but it’s something you have to deal with. If you want to, and it goes back to something Lincoln said that I thought was really insightful that at some point everybody’s faith, you’re going to have to. Um, have a reckoning with your faith, I think, and why you believe the things you do. And if you’re not willing to ask these hard questions, it’s never going to be a fulfilling part of your life, I don’t think. Um. And then something that came to mind a a minute ago, and I think it ties in here, um, you talked about like that reliance on on on God, our relationship with God, and I also think our relationships with each other are, are so important, cause um Yeah, being a parent and struggling. With worries about where your kids will end up. My kids aren’t old enough to be in this this position yet, but I, I just like, that’s so hard. Um But for us, I think of Em and Kate who were on the the podcast a couple episodes ago, and I don’t think they’re, they’re not like involved in the church. I don’t, I don’t know how they feel about God, um. But the thought of like cutting them out of the family or ostracizing them because of that, it just is like, It, it, I can’t fathom that, you know. And, and, and being willing to do that to somebody in your own in your family, in the name of um an institution is just I, I, I can’t, I can’t get behind that, and I don’t think that’s what God intended to happen here, um. So that’s, I, I think that we have have really strong family bonds and relationships, and that we also realize that we don’t know as much about everything as we maybe think we do. Um, and that’s OK, you know, it’s OK to not know everything, and, and there’s so much depth and, and, and joy that comes from, um, loving and accepting people with different beliefs than you have.

[57:14] Michelle: Thank you. Thank you, Christian. I, oh, at some point I want to share. I just, I love some of the answers that you’ve had as you’ve prayed about your sisters and the things that you’ve been shown about, you know, that I guess we can say that they’re here to teach us as well, right? It’s not, it’s not just that they’re here for us to fix them, right? So, um, so thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate it. I kind of, Lincoln, I want to invite you in to say something, and then I have something that I wanted to add.

[57:46] Lincoln Stone: Yeah, that’s fine. Um, I don’t have a lot on that. I’m not a, I’m not a parent, so it’s harder for me to relate exactly to those concerns, although I can imagine myself having them. Um. I think uh for me what it what it got to like with Christmas time with them and Kate. There has to come a point where You realize that that you cannot control somebody into salvation. Um, you know, God doesn’t even try that. Um, and so the only person whose exaltation you can be responsible for is yours, um, and to some extent your spouse’s, but, um, you know, because that, well, cause that’s a relationship, um, but with your children, I think, or, you know, you can’t control your spouse, um, you’re responsible for how your relationship impacts your spouse, but, but in the same way you’re responsible for your children, but you can’t control them. Um, or you can’t control other people, you know, but what you can do is control, like Christian said, how you treat them or how you, what those relationships stay as, um, because those are the things that are going to have the most impact, I think, more than what you tell them or how you punish them or anything like that.

[58:59] Michelle: Yeah, I, I think it is so, like I love what I’m hearing just kind of in the context of what a tragedy it is when differences in belief. Damage relationships and and and the the like like I love how you said, like the connection to God and the connection to one another are What we’re here for, right? And we live, and if we actually have as have faith in Jesus Christ, we’re content to let God teach people and we know that God can fix whatever any of us gets wrong, right? Like, like God loves us forever and there anyway, and none of us has all of the answers. So I love what I’m hearing you guys saying. Um, I, I don’t want to leave the question of, I guess the problem of pain, how can God let people suffer hanging. And with what both of you are saying in terms of if we already know, I mean, it’s OK not to know everything. And I have come to a place over all of these years where I actually relish the question. I relish having something come into my space that’s that it’s like, I don’t understand this. So I think that’s like, even that question in that atheist debate, I think I brought it up to you guys cause it was like, hey guys, here’s a Question, you know, and I don’t know the answer, which to me means it’s the opportunity to seek and receive an answer. So that’s actually an exciting thing to me, right? And, and that I trust and I distinctly was given. I, I don’t want to say the answer even though that’s how it feels, you know, I was given an answer that like filled my soul with so much, you know, that feeling of that there are a few feelings that are as glorious as like learning, as pure intelligence, as being elevated, right? And so I’ll just encapsulate it really quickly if that’s OK, like for me what I felt so told was it’s it’s a it’s a, I’m gonna try and tell it fast, but basically. No matter where the pain dial is set, we’re gonna complain about it, right? So what we’re really saying is the pain dial is set too high cause pain is all relative. And so if we can look at it and say there’s too much pain allowed in this world, but if the pain dial were set a lot lower, then a hangnail would be a tragedy and we could say, how could God allow this to happen? There’s no God or we wouldn’t live in a in a world where I could have a hangnail. Do you know what I’m saying? If we lived In complete bliss all the time, then any amount of suffering would make you question the existence of God, cause why could God let that happen? And so we’re really saying, I mean, we’re saying the same thing and actually what the purpose of pain is is to give us. It’s to give us an opportunity to see what we will do in the face of other people’s suffering. And when we, like someone posted after I lost one of our little girls, and they posted, not directed at me, but they posted like nobody who has sat by the bedside of a dying child could ever believe in God, and it was someone who had never lost a child. And, and I was like, you didn’t show up at all with what I was experiencing, and you are using an experience I’ve had as justification for your belief. You are bastardizing or prostituting my experience instead of, and so you’re kind of instead of delving in and going there is pain in the world. So that we can all be the hands of God, right? So that we can all take that upon ourselves and do all that we can to alleviate the pain in the world. Anyway, I, I didn’t explain it very well. There’s a lot more to that. So we’ll maybe we’ll cut this part out. But I just didn’t want to leave that completely hanging, that pain is relative, and it’s a call to action. For us, not an excuse for lack of belief for us. We’re completely missing the point if we view it that way. So that was the answer I was given, kind of expressed in bad words, or, and, you know, not very well. But, um, OK, so I guess, I guess for you guys now, I kind of want to know how you think that Parents can talk to their kids about challenging issues. If, you know, like say their children have grown up their whole life singing Follow the prophet. And now parents are like, oh, I see some mistakes that profits have made. Um, how do you think, and, and I know you’re not parents, but just in your lives, if you had like younger siblings or, you know, or how would you have liked that introduced to you? Oh, Christian, you are a parent. I’m sorry, I mean you don’t have kids that are yet, a 2 year old doesn’t need to have this conversation.

[1:03:55] Christian: Right. Um, That’s it’s I think so much of it depends on your relationship with your kids and how they How you kind of process. Information and and and and truth, but Oh man, I I guess a a core sort of Um, belief that that I have, and I, I know, Mom, you have, and I think this kind of undergirded a lot of our discussions is that the truth will survive, um, your questions. Uh, you don’t need to. You don’t need to protect the truth, um. And and as kind of a Uh, um, corollary to that, and an extension of that. Do we really want a faith that’s founded on things that aren’t true? Um, is, is it, is it worth Maybe avoiding the discomfort. To to keep a belief that’s not founded on truth, um. Other than that, I, I mean, I think just having those kind of Those deep underlying um values. And and beliefs. Will lead to um beneficial discussions. I don’t know how, I, I can’t really advise people on how to bring it up cause that’s that’s hard like with us, it’s like you said, we’re just like, well, what about this? Hey, did you hear about this? Let’s talk about that. And there’s there’s not a whole lot of we don’t, we’re no longer in the place where we have to really like try and and and bring it in gently, but that might be the case for some people, and so I can’t, I don’t know how to tell you to do that, um, other than I think that. Um, seeking inspiration on how to do it is really, really important. Um. Yeah, I thought that that’s what I’ve got.

[1:06:11] Michelle: That’s great. I love it. Part of what I’m hearing is the relationship is primary, the relationship is key. That’s the number one thing. And then just kind of let it flow as it comes. You don’t even maybe need to bring things up unless you feel inspired to, is part of what I’m hearing. And what we think and I’ll let you go and then I’ll add some more thoughts.

[1:06:30] Lincoln Stone: That’s essentially what I was going to say, um. If, if you’re examining your testimony and making sure that it’s founded on true things, um, and you’re going through that process, kids tend to be more observant, I think, than people give them credit for sometimes, um, but if you, you know, if you establish with your kids, um, If you establish with your kids the idea that it’s OK if you want to talk about this or whatever it is, you know what I mean? Um, and we talk about that, like having that relationship with your kids for them to confess sins or things like that, or tell you about bad things they did. But if that dialogue exists as well for, you know, doubts or questions or things like that, um, where you can try and figure it out together, um, as opposed to you just having the answer or telling them it’s wrong to have that thought, then I think that’s very effective. Um, and, and that, that’s an effective way of, of teaching those principles or discussing those principles without just start having to start the conversation of, hey kid, wanna know why there’s problems with DNC 132, you know, um, it’s, it’s maybe better to, you know, figure it out for yourself, but then also have that open channel where your kids can bring those things to you. And then as they get older, be prayerful about how to include them in those conversations. That’s the best thing that like if, you know, as a kid I appreciated those things that’s that’s. Uh, that’s what it meant the most to me, so.

[1:07:51] Michelle: I like that a lot.

[1:07:52] Christian: I have one more thing to add to, um, I. I think especially when dealing with teenagers. Um, it may not be receptive all the time, but I think there are also times when It’s, it’s surprising how um the things that they want to talk about and, and how intensely they, you know, they think about things cause so I I guess I can only speak from my experience. I know that as a teenager, I wasn’t always interested in having the conversations. Um, I think I, I, I was a lot, but not always, and sometimes I know like we, we didn’t have a a A contention free relationship, all of us, you know, when, when I was a teenager, I think when Lincoln was a teenager, um, but the, the things sink in and and and if you have I love what Lincoln said, an open relationship, being willing to talk about things if you have, uh, I guess a family, um. Value of of seeking truth. Then over time that will really sink in and and will help um your kids develop in in a good way.

[1:09:08] Michelle: I love that. So I’m gonna tie back to something we talked about before. As a parent, there’s a similarity to what you guys were saying about a mission as a missionary that like no one likes, I shouldn’t say no one likes, but maybe the best way to be a missionary isn’t to have to have all of the answers. And I think that sometimes as parents, we feel like we have to be the teacher, we have to be the one with the answers. And, and I actually would say it’s the same thing to be vulnerable and genuine and willing to say, yeah, I don’t know, you know, or like, like, so even if you want to bring up with your kids, like, I’m really struggling with this cause I’m starting to feel like this with, with just a desire for truth. I think that what this kind of all settles down into is God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. And as parents, it is so easy to just be filled with fear. I know that as a young Believing parent when you guys were memorizing your articles of faith at 5 and 6 years old, 4 and 5 and 6 years old, and, you know, I was just like, like doing everything I possibly could to make sure that you were going to stay on the path that that I thought you needed to stay on and I would never have recognized or acknowledged it back then. But I was filled with fear. I just didn’t know it until I went through my own journey where I’m like, oh, connection to God, God’s got us, we’re good. Like, the church doesn’t have as much power over our salvation as I thought it did. It really lessened my fear as a parent in a beautiful way. Like, it’s wonderful to minimize fear as a parent, cause God is never, like, God is never the author of fear, right? Even when God warned you of something with of danger. It’s not fear that you’re overwhelmed with. It’s a clarity and a what to do, right? It’s a warning and direction, not a, oh no, oh no, oh no. And so I think that being willing to be vulnerable and real with our children, without having to put ourselves above them in terms of, I’m the teacher, you’re the student, I will tell you what is true. But being really willing to listen to their ideas without defensiveness, will teach them to listen to your ideas without defensiveness, hopefully they could might need to grow into that and to be willing to just engage and just trust God’s got them. It’s OK. God’s got me. It’s OK. I’ll just keep loving, living what I believe is right, engaging with them in love without, cause I think that preaching does a lot like we talked about, does a lot more to hurt relationships than it does to change beliefs, right? And so, um, so I really think letting go of fear is the central thing that I would advise is like really just coming to a place of peace as much as possible and letting your kids be involved in your conversations as you’re working on things too, cause it’s a OK to not have all the answers. I, and I don’t think that that creates uncertainty. I don’t think that that makes kids insecure. Like, oh no, my mom doesn’t know everything. Now I don’t feel secure. Cause you guys were raised like, so maybe you can talk to that as your last discussion point is, you know, like, I feel like I treated you as people with valid and valuable ideas that I wanted to learn from as you grew up. And I hope that you felt that. And so maybe you can kind of speak to that if you have anything to say. Uh, you know, I think dad did the same thing. I I don’t, I, Dad’s not here, he didn’t want to necessarily join in the conversation, so I don’t want to act like I was an only parent, but, but I, I just wanna know how If if you guys felt that and if you, you know, like if you appreciated that or if you felt like it was different and I’m completely full of it and I was very different from your perspective.

[1:13:08] Christian: Well, um, Oh, go ahead, Lincoln, thanks.

[1:13:12] Lincoln Stone: Um, I’ll be super quick. Um, so now we’re almost out of time, I think, um. It feels good to be treated like a person who understands things, I think, um, and I think sometimes that can feel like what’s lacking at church, um, or at at school it’s the same anytime there’s a standardized kind of thing set up, um, it can feel like you are being talked at, um, instead of engaged in something and so feeling like a person who has opinions and has value and has, um, and can have questions, I think that’s a very validating thing.

[1:13:47] Christian: Thank you.

[1:13:48] Lincoln Stone: Yeah,

[1:13:48] Christian: and as far as as far as that dynamic in our family, I think it’s, I think it’s evidenced here. I don’t, you know, I’d be surprised if the dynamic changes just because your kids are suddenly adults, um, like we’re, we’re having a conversation, you’ve had a conversation with them and Kate on your show. I, um, and then I, I see it happening with my kids, like my, my little 2 year old. I think I try and treat her. Like a person and um Yeah, I, I, I, I do think that that was the dynamic that we had where We were Respected and and Could contribute to discussions like I, I, I remember a lot of conversations we have for some, for some reason the parables are the things that I think of that we talked about a lot, like we, we had a lot of conversations about the parables and it was

[1:14:43] Michelle: Seeking the deeper part of what they really meant cause the surface level never felt good or true.

[1:14:49] Christian: Well, and it doesn’t make sense. The the accepted interpretations don’t make a whole lot of sense for a lot of them. So, um, yeah, but I, I do remember like we were, we were all kind of like, what does this mean, you know, what? It doesn’t make sense how we, how we take it, and so let’s find the deeper meaning. And yeah, we, we really struggle with those and and with finding kind of a a deeper understanding.

[1:15:17] Michelle: But I will say that I genuinely have learned a lot from my conversations with with my kids. Like, even with the com the maybe part of the reason you remember the parable so much is because you received many of those answers and shared them with me, a lot of the direction and like, I, I think that we are meant to learn in community cause we learn so much more in community cause we all bring our answers and share them together. And if you think about what we’re talking about, like, The church lessons that are really kind of hard to sit through are the ones where we’re just kind of being talked at and all of the answers are just being told to us. Whereas when we’re invited in to a truly open discussion, the teacher isn’t just asking for certain answers that they’re looking for. They’re really like, what do you think about this and how can we, you know, and it’s truly an exploration seeking truth by that group. For me, those kinds of lessons are just invigorating and enlivening, and I love them. I wish we had a lot more of that at church, because I think that’s what we’ve had in our family. So, so I think there is truth to that, but um I guess we just have a minute or so left. I want to know if any of you guys have any last minute things you want to you want to end on, or sharing a testimony, anything you wanna say.

[1:16:38] Christian: Um, well, one thought that I just had come to mind is, I remember eating dinner as a family and dad said something about why are we so afraid of being wrong? And it wasn’t, it wasn’t in this context, but I think that that’s something that I wasn’t very good at, um, growing up is being willing to be wrong, but now, Um, what you were talking about about these conversations. Being invigorating, they really are, especially if you’re willing to to Be wrong or to challenge what you believe. I think that that is um a crucial part of this, this uh development um and, and growing true faith and things that really matter.

[1:17:24] Michelle: All right. So, Lincoln, did you have any thoughts you want to add and then

[1:17:29] Lincoln Stone: Um, not a lot. Um, I think that nuance is a good thing to have, um, when you’re approaching stuff like this, and it’s, it’s good to be nuanced and not black black and white about things cause a lot of things we just don’t know, um. And yeah, and it’s OK to be wrong sometimes, and that’s a scary thing, but it’s a good habit to get into is admitting that you’re that you might have been wrong, or at least having that possibility open and letting the Lord guide you into ways of being more correct or or or finding more truth.

[1:17:59] Michelle: I like that. I, I think I’ve said in another in another interview that um Defensiveness is a little bit what we’re talking about with the fear of being wrong, right? Like you start defending your views cause they feel threatened, and I, I wanna know if this rings true for you guys. I have really learned that defensiveness is a sign that you are on a sandy foundation, cause when you’re on the rock, you don’t need to defend your views. You can just peacefully believe them and hear what other people say without feeling at all threatened or, right, like it says, um, that they Tremble lest they shall fall. Those that are built upon the sound. They’re like, you can’t say that because it threatens my sandy foundation. And that’s a really clear sign that you have some deeper exploration to do to see why you feel potentially threatened by that belief, which manifests as being defensive and needing to say, no, it’s this way. No, it’s this way. No, it’s this way, right? Rather than just, 00, you think that? Oh, why? That’s interesting. Oh, I think this because of this. Let’s have a conversation and see if we can both gain more truth. Right? And so I think that that’s

[1:19:06] Lincoln Stone: something. And that can be the case. I think that that can be the case even if what you believe is true, but you’re not sure why. Um, cause a lot of people can have that reaction when they do believe something true that’s being, you know, attacked or or discussed, but they don’t know why it’s true, or they don’t know why they believe that. And so that I think that can be the case as many times as not, it’s not necessarily that what you believe isn’t true. Um, although that certainly happens a lot, but also you might not be fully sure of why something’s true or why you believe something, and that that can create that same sort of feeling, I think.

[1:19:38] Michelle: OK, I’m really glad you brought that up because it lets me clarify something. I wasn’t trying to imply that the Sandy Foundation are all. False beliefs. I just think part of, like, if you’re feeling defensive, maybe it’s an invitation from the Lord that you can go deeper to find out why you believe that thing, right? It’s somehow, somehow you’re insecure in your beliefs if you’re needing to defend them. And it’s not necessarily that they’re not true. It’s just, oh, yeah, you know, like that’s a good sign. I guess when I feel defensive, that’s a bigger sign to me than it is. It’s, it’s like my friend said when she prayed in that space and the Lord said, do you really believe those feelings are for me? Me, you know, like the Lord doesn’t in the Lord doesn’t need us to wield the sword to defend his views against other people that don’t think right, right? Don’t believe right. So, OK, any anything else you guys think we should have covered? You’re just done.

[1:20:35] Lincoln Stone: That was good.

[1:20:38] Christian: Um. Well, I mean there are so many like topics that are really interesting that we that we discuss all the time, but we don’t have. Infinite time to You

[1:20:49] Michelle: have one particularly that’s on my, on your mind?

[1:20:53] Christian: Well, I I know, I just think like polygamy, like the, the priesthood ban, all of these things are, I guess what I will say is um I wish there were more of an an ethos of Accepting mistakes and moving on from them in the church. Um, We’re really Held hostage by this need for everything to be perfect in our history and It just I think it’s really dangerous and and destructive because it’s not the case. It’s not the case. Our history is not Without blemish, it’s not perfect. And that’s OK, I think, to me, knowing that the leaders of the church have in the past made mistakes, at least as far as I can tell, it doesn’t. Mean all of a sudden that the entire thing is flawed and and untrue. And I think Um, I think one thing that’s that’s a reason that I’m glad that going back way back to one of our earlier points, I’m glad that this happened earlier rather than later in my life, is that Um, Bad things happen when you feel like you’ve been betrayed and lied to. And that’s, I think what’s happening to a lot of people. Lincoln’s in my age in particular, a lot of young members of the church and probably older members

[1:22:30] Michelle: of a lot of people my age too.

[1:22:32] Christian: Sure, a lot of people in general is that, you know, more information is coming to light and we’re and people are feeling lied to and so. Just being being able and willing to say. Yeah, that, I don’t know why that happened. I don’t know how that kind of was allowed to happen, but it did, and we, and, and it was a mistake. I don’t, that’s not hard to do in in my mind, um, if we’re willing to say. God still has a purpose for us and is still involved. And is able to use imperfect people and organizations to accomplish his purposes, which rings so much more true to me than the the prophet will never lead us astray.

[1:23:20] Michelle: I have two quick responses to that. One, isn’t it interesting that the same principles that hold true for individuals often hold true for organizations, which is being able and willing to be wrong. Rather than being defensive, it, right? I think that’s really interesting. And also, my thought is that if we hadn’t had this perspective of the prophet can’t do anything wrong, maybe not so many things would have happened that would have been so wrong, cause there would have been more, you know, like in America, we created the separation of powers so that there was the need to do exactly what we’re doing to seek a higher way through. The contest of ideas, the contest of discussion. And I think that God shows up in that in profound ways, because we each make each other better. Whereas if somebody is given too much power, you know, it’s really hard to have that same dynamic that can bring us all into higher truth. So I’m really glad that you shared that cause I think it’s, I think it’s really true. And We live in a fallen corrupt world. Why in the world would we think that anything would be perfect, right? That that’s, that’s an insane belief to think and it makes us afraid of imperfection, which I think that If it, if, if imperfection weren’t OK, and in some ways very good, we wouldn’t be here on this earth cause it’s, that’s what it is. This earth is imperfection. So Lincoln, did you, you said you were done. Did you have any last minute?

[1:24:55] Lincoln Stone: No, that’s about all that I have in mind. Um, yeah. OK. I know.

[1:25:01] Michelle: Well, I wanna thank you guys so much for sitting down. I know this has already been long, but I have to tell just one thing. So these two boys are responsible for like my best ever homeschooling mom moment where I felt like, OK, no matter what else happens. This, it’s OK. So can I tell the my favorite joke of your guys is that I told maybe I should have you reenact it. But OK, I think this is what it was. Christian said to Lincoln, what do you get if you mix Joseph Stalin and Abraham Lincoln? And Lincoln sat sat and thought for a minute, and then he responded with the Saint Petersburg Address and Christian said, nope, you’re wrong. The emaciation Proclamation. That happened. I think you guys were 8 and 9 at the time, so.

[1:25:58] Christian: It was younger,

[1:26:00] Michelle: yeah. How old were you 6 and 7?

[1:26:02] Christian: It would probably 7 and 8 would be,

[1:26:06] Lincoln Stone: yeah.

[1:26:06] Michelle: They were little tiny boys and and I bet half of the audience won’t get all of the pieces of that joke put together, but I had the privilege of raising you so far you’ve met 4 of my awesome kids that I’ve had the privilege of raising, and I think I’ve told you guys from the time you were little. I’m the luckiest mom in the whole wide world. I still say that to my little kids, and it’s true, and I hope that all of you moms and dads are saying that to your kids as well, because we are lucky to get to be parents. OK, I love you guys to pieces.

[1:26:37] Christian: You’re wonderful.

[1:26:38] Michelle: No, please, because this is all going to be edited anyway. Go ahead.

[1:26:42] Christian: You, you asked for testimony and so I will share just a little bit because I feel like I should, um. I have a very firm belief in my savior. um. I look forward. Wow. To the time where I can Um, Bow at his feet and and worship him and thank him. For what he’s done for me. And I know that God answers prayers. And those two things. are The the core of everything else, um. And I know that they love us, and that is kind of a cliche at this point, I think, to a lot of people in the church, but But They, I think, want us to embody that love as well as we can. And to help others. And that’s why I can’t fathom the thought of of hating people or condemning people who believe differently than we do. I don’t think that that’s that’s God’s plan for us. Because The Lord suffered for all of us. In hopes that we would accept it and and come back to him and And carry a little bit of each other’s suffering as well. Um. I think what you said about suffering and pain is so true. It’s a call to action for us to reach out. And to, to see the people on the The edges of the crowd and who aren’t who don’t belong or don’t feel like they belong, or who are hurting. Um, I, I have a strong testimony about that, and all the stuff that we’ve, that we’ve talked about, all of the other, the beliefs that we maybe rejected, um. I, I really feel are. Auxiliary there there on the fringes and Um, aren’t crucial to salvation.

[1:29:22] Michelle: Thank you. That was, that was beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that. I appreciate it. We weren’t able to do a final conclusion in the discussion that we were having because we just went on to talk about other things that wouldn’t be of interest to anybody outside of our family. So I’m going to come back here for just a minute and thank you for joining us. I really hope that something was useful to you. I really hope that you like my boys. I am so thankful that they were willing to do this. Christina Lincoln, thank you very much, and I, I know that we certainly, as I said, do not begin to have all of the answers, but I’m hoping that we can all go forward and just continue to do our best in what can often feel like this tightrope of trying to navigate our family situations and all of the different things that we have going on. I am Really have learned how quick the Lord is to send inspiration to parents who are trying to navigate situations with their children. And um I really believe that that is what this whole thing is all about, just like we were talking about the relationships, our love for one another. And so hopefully as we Go through these complicated situations and discussions, this complicated journey of life, we can prioritize our relationships with one another and our relationship with God above everything else. So thank you so much for joining us. My name is Michelle Stone. This has been 132 Problems, and I will see you next week.