35: Why I Stay | 132 Problems: Revisiting Mormon Polygamy

Please consider supporting this podcast:

Transcript

[00:00:00] Welcome to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon Polygamy, where we explore the scriptural and theological case for plural marriage. As always, I recommend listening to these episodes in order, starting at the beginning and continuing on so you can understand what topics we’ve covered, where we’ve come from, and how we’ve arrived to where we are. My name is Michelle Stone, and this is episode 35 Why and How I Stay in the Church. Thank you for joining us as we take a deep dive into the murky waters of Mormon polygamy. I want to start by again thanking all of those who have, um, donated to this podcast. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it and how much it means to me. I am trying to get set up to where I can host interviews. I don’t have a space for that yet. And, um, I also still need a little help with, um, the house help that I very, very desperately need. So if anybody else feels inspired or inclined or able, I would really appreciate, um, your contributions to this podcast as well. And now on to the topic. So I still am, I have been preparing the next part on the testimonies of women, but this topic has been weighing on my mind heavily and has continually come back to mind. And then last week, I actually had several people send me messages or talk to me about this topic. And so I have decided to address it first. I, every time I sat down to write an outline or to make notes, I just felt No, that I should just speak and um so this is as uncomfortable as a testimony meeting where I’m just getting up without prepared notes, but with a lot of thoughts and hoping that they come out in a manner that will be helpful, enlightening to at least some of you. I want to first clarify that I am the topic is why I stay in the church, and that really is this topic. This is my journey and my experience and the answers I’ve received. So I don’t want this to come across to anybody as what I am saying everybody should do or what the answer should be for everyone. I, of course, um hope that people find value in my answers and I, um, because I love the church. I want people to stay, so I acknowledge that, and I admit that, and um, but I also acknowledge that for some people that might not be the right thing, um, especially for a time or maybe at all. So please don’t hear my words as um, in any way judgmental or Um, telling you what to do. And please don’t, um, use my words to tell others what they should do. Don’t, don’t weaponize my words against others following their best path. So I’m going to share my journey. I’ve shared in some previous episodes. I can’t, I should have looked up which episode House of Cards was, and I think that’s the one I talked a bit about my faith journey. But I have had, um, multiple times in my life where I have had to face. Genuinely the very difficult question of whether to stay or whether to leave. And I think that people who haven’t um gotten to the point where that is a genuine question have a hard time relating to that, like, how could you possibly leave, you know, it becomes unthinkable. And I think that for those who have already crossed that border and have left and are perhaps far away, the question can be just as mind boggling of how can you possibly stay. So

[00:03:44] I, um, I have no idea where um the various members of my audience will be on that question. So I’m going to share my journey and just ask that. Um, people try to listen with an open heart because we are all in different places. I so remember being my, my sister, um, used to be involved. She had a company that was, that worked in, um, publishing in the LDS community, so worked closely with Deseret Book, and she had a friend who received a phone call from an apostle asking him to sell his book publishing and selling business to the church and um. She, you know, she was telling me about that to kind of tell me that the church isn’t as perfect, you know, as I thought it was, and I remember just so fervently believing. Well, no, then that he will have blessings and that was inspired. That apostle wouldn’t do that, that wasn’t what God told him to do. I, you know, so I understand being in that place and um, you know, probably frustrating my sister with my insistence on My, um, black and white complete faith and um and then I’ve gone on a journey and I’ve seen the other side as well. I’ve just, I, I’ve read the um information. I understand what’s out there. I understand the problems and so So, um, I guess enough introduction. I first, it’s hard to know where to start, but I want to start with paradise, right? The Garden of Eden, where we all hope to get back to and um this perfect, wonderful, beautiful place. Where everything is pain free and sin free and there are no weaknesses or mistakes or problems, and yet there is a snake, right? There is a demon even there that sets everything. That throws it all, you know, from the Christian mindset, of course, from the paradise mindset and into this giant mess that we’re all dealing with. That is exactly what we believe it was supposed to be. And so I think that the idea of perfection is something to handle with caution. I think it’s so easy in general to have an idealistic mindset, and it is so easy, so incredibly easy to find fault. With something that people have built. While it is so incredibly difficult to build something, right? It’s impossible to build something that nobody can find fault with, and it is incredibly difficult to build something that can be of use to people. So I am not in any way going to say that the church isn’t filled with snakes, that there aren’t all kinds of problems. I want to tell part of my thinking about this. So as I shared in my journey before when I was. Struggling so much with whether to stay or whether to leave, and the Lord, the profound answer the Lord gave me was that Jesus stayed, but he didn’t submit, and that’s what I felt at that time called to do.

[00:06:48] To stay involved and active in the church, but to live according to what God inspired me to do, and I have stayed in that place and it for the most part has served me well. We’ve gone through a lot of challenges, but it wasn’t until 2020 that I again genuinely faced that abyss with um my disagreements with the church and my grave concerns over what was happening combined with my personal experiences feeling, um. Not, not recognizing that I was feeling like I wasn’t being supported or um. I, I felt a deep, deep, deep sense of betrayal. Shall we say, I stayed in the church through so much, through thick and thin. And then when I needed the church more than ever, it wasn’t there. It shut down. It went inactive, right? And, um, and that was a very difficult thing with me. Also, what I perceived to be great evil, that prophesized great evil. I found. The church aligning with and that was very upsetting to me. I’m just again telling my journey. People may see this differently or have experienced it differently. This was my journey and that again became an incredibly difficult time. And, um, I, um, you know, with, with the things I’ve already struggled with and my, the things that I see differently, it became a time where I was like, what am I doing? Why am I here? Why am I in this church? I, I, these were hard questions that I couldn’t answer and that were filled with so much pain. And so, um, I again, through, through miracles, I, I did feel very, very um unsupported in some very painful ways at the most difficult time in my life. And, um, and in that time, some people that were members of the church showed up in profound miraculous ways, and Again, kind of, I compare it to Jean Valjean and Les Mis when he says to the priest, you have, oh, I can’t remember the lyrics. You have won my heart for God, basically the goodness of the priest claimed Jean Valjean’s loyalty to God, and that was again what I experienced the goodness of these particular church members that I experienced. Again claimed my loyalty to the church and um and and the thing that I guess is always. Miraculous and surprising to me is how thankful I am for that. Being this close, right on the edge um of almost leaving the church genuinely thinking that was the best thing to do and what I should do has served the purpose of making my membership in the church, um, something that I do not and cannot take for granted. I am, am very aware of both. The cost and the benefit, and I have since that time, since that difficult time in 2020 when I, no, I guess it was actually 2021 when I was pregnant with my second daughter and

[00:09:52] Experienced that outpouring of goodness from church members on behalf of God. Um, since that time, I have been profoundly thankful for the answer I yet again received to stay. So that’s what I want to share part of. So, um, and then, and then I, you know, I’ll share just some of the things that I’m thankful for, and then some of the, some of my thinking about it that I have, cause I think about things a lot, you know, so I thought about this quite a bit over the years. But, um, just, just recently, um, at the end of the summer, my son, my 18 year old, who, um, he’s had some hard things in the church as well, he went to FSY that the church started doing. I think they planned to start in. 2020, but then it ended up being canceled, so they started uh maybe I have the years off, maybe they were going to start in 2021. In any case, um I actually was kind of upset because the year my son was supposed to go, cause every ward goes every other year or every state goes every other year. Um, his year was canceled and then he was going to turn 18. He just barely turned 18, so I thought he wouldn’t get to go. So I, you know, sometimes feel like even what the church does that would be good doesn’t benefit my family. So, but they um they made a change and let all of the seniors go. So when my son was still 17, he went to FSY. And he, I’ve lived, you know, my whole motherhood. I strive to help my children have experiences with the spirit and come to know how to. How to feel and perceive the love of God, and how to learn to be led by the spirit, um, by learn to recognize how God speaks to them and to learn to seek and follow those instructions. And, you know, some kids are really, um, everybody has different spiritual gifts, and some kids don’t seem to have those experiences quite as readily or as easily. And this son went to FSY and came home and he had experienced an outpouring of the love of God that was practically indescribable to. I mean, when he tried to talk about it, it was that kind of experience where words failed him and he. Talked to me about it for days and days and it was. It was such a profound, beautiful thing. And if I had left the church, my son wouldn’t have gone to FSY and wouldn’t have had that experience with God. And he, you know, as he talked about the experience, many of the, um, advisors and teachers there spoke about God and about and and pointed to God, and he could tell a very distinct difference between. Those um lessons and those experiences and other experiences that pointed to the prophet, you know, and um,

[00:12:50] so, so both were there. I, I just, in my, in my view, one challenge that I have is um is our focus on prophets. I, I think that everybody points to God, right? And The prophet points to God and we all point to God and the prophet is an extra person pointing to God. I, I struggle personally with pointing to the prophet. I just don’t like putting people on pedestals. I don’t like looking to mortals other than. That all mortals should help one another to come to know God, right? And so, um, but so he’s, you know, that’s one challenge that we have, but he was so clear and able to discern what filled him with the spirit and what was like, OK, you know, and um and he he’ll be my 3rd. He, he’s expecting his mission call. Yes, these are complicated things. My 3 he’ll be my 3rd. To go on a mission and with all three of them, I have had to spend a lot of time. With the Lord seeking. Um, direction, because, because I don’t believe everything exactly the way the church teaches it, and sometimes it feels like there’s not much wiggle room, right? If you’re going to go out and teach messages that, um, I don’t completely agree with, but with each of my sons, I have had profound answers and, you know, my daughters just haven’t had interest in going on missions. I did an episode with them a little while ago, so Gabe is my third son and um. And I again with him prayed and was given such a beautiful answer of how a mission would benefit him and how he could bless people again by You know, it’s hard to find the harm in our young men and going out and learning to love and serve people and trying to share. Light and truth and love in the world while they’re trying to also gain more experience with light and truth and love in their own in their own, um, lives. And so I just had a beautiful answer to send him on a mission, and I’m so thankful for that. It’s so excited that he gets to go and I see the difference between my wonderful kids before. The missions and after. And maybe it’s just a miraculous time of life where a lot of growth occurs. I’m sure that, but, but I think you put that time of life in that kind of an environment where they are focused on God and on others. And I think it’s profound. My, um, one of my sons, his only baptism was a nine year old child of a family who just hadn’t had their child baptized yet. And, um, yet. And and in a way, I was just thrilled with that. He felt so strongly that his mission was to minister to the other missionaries, and he found

[00:15:45] that he has a love and a talent for. You know, being there for people in certain ways and ministering to them in certain ways and the growth that he experienced. And then my second son is completely different than my oldest, and his mission experience served him in um very different ways, but. Again, so, so deeply profound and um things that I had tried to instill in these boys and you know, it’s easy too, with especially I maybe with your oldest with my younger kids now I have their older kids and I’m like, OK, it worked. They came out well even though I thought that maybe they weren’t going to sometimes, you know, but um you try so hard as a mother to teach them things and then they go on a mission and they come home and they Have learned these things in such profound beautiful ways that maybe were some concerns I had about them before. And so um I have been blessed by that, by my son’s serving missions has been a blessing to me. It hasn’t, there are different stories people tell about they had financial blessings or what, you know, while their kids on missions, that hasn’t been our experience, but Seeing the men that my boys have become. And um now the husbands and fathers that they are and the girls that they married um. I have to I have to, I, I, I have to acknowledge that. I believe that our involvement in the church has contributed to that. And um, then a few weeks ago we had our primary program, and I have 3 little boys still in primary and um you know, right before the program, a sweet lady in our ward turned around and said, oh my goodness, all of your children are in primary. That must be so weird for you to not have anyone in the bench, and I’m sure she just didn’t. Remember my situation. Cause yep, I don’t have my little girls with me on the bench, but, um, you know, so there are, you know, so I cried through the beginning of the program and I’ll um there the song Follow the Prophet is one of the songs this year, and that’s one song that in fact we’ve laughed because my little 5 year old came in the house andattle told on his brother mom, set the singing followed the prophet, cause at our house we sing in a different way. Follow the Savior. Follow the Savior. Follow the savior. Don’t go astray. Follow the Savior. Follow the Savior. Follow the Savior. He knows the. And um, anyway, it was so wonderful watching my children up on the stand singing. I’m trying to be like Jesus and singing about. Love and light and truth and goodness. And um when I go to church and I’m surrounded by. For me, these women who. You know, I, I just think there is something profound about that I was raised being taught to. Start my days asking God who I can serve and who I can bless and how I can be an instrument in His hand that day, and then I’m surrounded by other people who are also being taught to ask that prayer and that we.

[00:19:16] Are in our faulting, failing weak way striving. To be disciples of the Lord and to bless and serve others, that is a profound privilege and um. And and so I’m just talking freely about some of the blessings of staying, right? Because it is also, you know, as I discussed, there is an exhaustion level of getting everyone to church, and but once I had that answer to follow God and I let go of expectation and obligation, the church has served me in a completely different way because I do check in with what I should do and what I should accept my um. My husband checked in with himself on the way that we pay tithing, and he did a reassessment of that that he feels comfortable with. He handles our finances. We’re a one income family and. And he, he’s in, he’s a finance guy and loves that, and I have ADD and don’t, so he takes care of that for us, but um he has found a way to um address that issue that is comfortable for him. I have found ways to address the issues that were challenging for me in ways that I feel good about. I have had times in my life where when I struggle with lessons or teachers or what is being taught, I have um Before asked to serve in the nursery so I can go and. Love children cause I’m good at that and and I’ve always wanted children to feel as much love as possible and so I feel like there is a place for me and I am surrounded by these good people serving my children sometimes. You know, sometimes their weaknesses can make that hard, but usually it is a profound blessing to have other people invested and engaged in teaching and loving my children, and I have the opportunity to teach and love other people’s children, and there’s something beautiful and profound in that. And um, and then even just going and singing hymns. And taking the sacrament and all of that, none of that is dependent on the church. That’s all between me and God, and I have that opportunity to take my children with me as well, to experience those rituals that we have the opportunity to infuse them with whatever the Lord gives us that day, right? But that time to separate from The constant world and to focus on the divine. I am so profoundly thankful that that is still a part of my life. And, and, you know, the, the, I think that it’s so easy to focus on the world, the temporal, all the time. And I, maybe there are people who don’t need any kind of community or ritual or habit. To keep that at the forefront. But for me, I have found it to be a blessing. So I’m going to, I, I know I’m all over the place. I warned you I would be. Um, when the, the, the first time I was strongly considering leaving the church and I talked to, I, you know, I started with my oldest, they were my, my oldest wasn’t yet.

[00:22:40] They, they were all, I think my oldest two were high school age and then down from there. And I talked to him and he is one that is um similar to me that just has a strong spiritual connection. He’s had experiences with the Lord from his youth, and then my next son is a little bit different. He has A brain that doesn’t quit like this kid was just bored brilliant and um but hasn’t had necessarily as many experiences with the spirit and um when I talked to him about that I thought I. You know, I thought that we weren’t going to continue in the church, and he actually became quite emotional, which was not in his character normally and um and he, you know, and what he finally said was, Mom, I know you know God. But I don’t know that I know God. And all I have is the church. I don’t have God like you do, and it just opened my eyes in such a profound way that the church serves different purposes for different people and for my son, that son at that time, the church was his conduit to try to come to know God, you know, he didn’t yet know God and he. And, and that’s the purpose that the church filled for him, and that was so profound to me to not just assume that everyone was like me and could have God without the church. And um and I’ve been so thankful for that. And um and so that’s another thing that I have remembered is that, OK, everybody, well, and these are basic things, but so. I guess as I look at it as a whole, for my family, for myself, the church just is my spiritual home, and all of those times that I have struggled because I’m not going to deny the struggle. You go through different phases of what is it, the phases of grief, like sometimes you’re so angry and all you can see is all of the bad, and it just feels so difficult and You know, and other times you’re just exhausted and sad and can’t bear the thought of continuing through all of that. I have asked and looked and said, Lord. What is better? Where can I go? And I, I personally have not found anything better. I have had this profound awareness that anything I go to will still be flawed, right? And, um, I compare it to, so maybe some of you will relate to this. We had an election a few years ago where the two candidates. were just both unthinkable in my, in my perspective. And I was like, I can’t stay in America. I, I can’t be in a country where these are the people that we, that are our options to lead and represent us. And I was genuinely looking, where do I go? And I just settled after weeks and weeks on, there’s nowhere better. I have to stay. In my home and do what I can to make my home the best place it can be, you know,

[00:25:51] where the country that I, that is my home and. And also, you know, with family, so often it’s like. So flawed, it can be so difficult and so hard and. Yet how do I find a different family? I can’t do that, so I either have it or I do without and um. And you know, there are so many, even, you know, in in marriage, marriage can be so hard and the question of to stay or to leave, but I have to look at it with my eyes open when when I have struggled in the past and thought, what are the benefits of staying, what are the benefits of leaving, and how can how can I stay and make it as good as possible, right? And I think that that is something that we Also, that’s also now how I look at the church, because I have looked and looked and I can’t find anything better and anything that won’t have at least as many problems, if not more, for me, because this is my spiritual home, and there are teachings in the church that resonate with me so deeply and that I love, I love. I love Eve and I love that in my church I am allowed and encouraged to love Eve and to see her as a heroine and as a beautiful manifestation of womanhood instead of a woman being blamed for all the pain and suffering in the world. I love, I love so many teachings in the Book of Mormon. I. I love Doctor Mc Covenant’s 121, just things that are coming to mind that were. You know where we are taught so many gorgeous things and I don’t want to subtract those and I haven’t found something that I feel called to go to. I, I feel often. You know, when When Peter says, thou hast the words of eternal life, where else could we go? I, and I, I feel that way. So for me, it’s not a question of, uh, well, I mean, I’m always open. If the Lord at any point said, Hey, there’s something, go there. That’s better. You know, I would always follow the Lord. But so far, that is definitely not been my experience. Um, I just feel like for me, it would be a choice of either having the church or not having it. And when I look at that choice, um, I don’t see how not having the church would benefit me, because I have already, oh, sorry, I’ve already come to a place where I follow the Lord and not the church, right? So I don’t have the same issues of obligation and exhaustion and burnout. Out, um, because I serve out of joy and inspiration. And when I ask for, or, well, I’m,

[00:28:38] I’m also, I’m again in a point of, of considering I was sitting in, um, really the other day. We have a lot of new young families moving into our ward and I was surrounded by 6 little pre-nursery children and really struggling cause I don’t have my little. Pre-nursery girl, and I just again thought, I’m gonna ask to serve in nursery again because then I can go love these children and so I just feel like there are opportunities everywhere in the church when I see my children have the opportunity to give a talk in sacrament meeting. That is beautiful to me, and they, we always take that opportunity for them to. Learn to follow the spirit and then to learn to write and learn like that is such a beautiful thing that they get to do. I know there are times when it’s like, oh my gosh, that’s another thing we have to add to the plate. But I, for me, that’s never been that for me those are precious opportunities to either speak in primary or in church. And yes, there are times when it now in my burned out mom phase where our primary talks are being written during sacrament meeting. It’s not ideal, but it does sometimes happen. But it’s a profound blessing to me that my children get to speak in church or bear their testimony, or be in their classes, and I, I just think there is something beautiful about the formalized structure and then staying engaged in The struggle. I, I, I’ve read something about how I think it’s Ashkenazi Jews have um overall the highest IQ of any um ethnic group. And um I just have thought about how they for generations back, have like, have been in the word of God and really, really um Grappling with it, considering, like if you learn a little bit about how traditionally Jews approach the scriptures, it is really intense and profound, and I can see how that would over the generations with epigenetics, turn on a lot of really good things, and I find that for myself, I find that staying in the struggle. Um, seeing contradictions even in the scriptures and going, OK, this doesn’t make sense, but then I’ve learned that those are actually blessings cause then when I take them to the Lord, so often I’m given some beautiful synthesis that elevates my comprehension and probably my just, you know, I feel like this is a worthy struggle on every level intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, um, just in every way and And as we are in our families or our church communities and we learn to love one another and to forgive one another and to apologize to one another. There’s something beautiful about that, right? I love that. Oh, I should have looked at these scriptures, but the church is the people of God coming together in the Book of Mormon. I, someone will, maybe, maybe I’ll write it if I can remember what it is, but the people coming together to learn to love God and to learn to love one another in community is something beautiful and I think important and um. And so,

[00:31:54] so I do have the opportunity to bring to it whatever I can through inspiration, prayerfully asking the Lord, who can I serve today or who can I bless today? And, and, you know, sometimes it is hard for me to go and sometimes I don’t go that day if I’m not up up to it. But I am so thankful. Like when I sat listening to my children singing in the primary program, I wouldn’t give that up for the world. It’s It’s so beautiful to me, and I think that our world is so temporal and so secular that really it does become a question between believing in God and not believing in God in a way, right? And um staying in that struggle, staying plugged in, because it’s so easy to throw things out. That there’s a whole lot of baby in that bathwater, right? And, and, um, when we throw out God, we are still maybe maybe we don’t realize it for quite a while, but we are left with so many problems still. There are problems everywhere and every time I have engaged in truly considering those deep questions. For me, the scales always tilt strongly to the existence of God and. The existence of purpose and the beauty of creation and the goodness, and I think that that can be found through my church as well as it can be found anywhere. We um We are taught to be Christians in this church in beautiful and profound ways and um and to strive to love one another. And my experiences, even when I was feeling unsupported by members of my board and um members of the church, I This is a this is maybe a hard thing to say, but my experience and and I’m open, you know, to hearing difference, my experience, I have yet to see someone leave the church. And From what I can see. Grow to be a more humble and a more charitable and a more. Christ-like person, right? I, generally, that’s not the trajectory that I have seen and I’m not saying that the only way to be a good person is to be in the church or, you know, but I do feel like When I look at some of the older sisters in my ward who I just. I want to grow up and be like them, right? And how they are. We, we come together and we’re able to hear what’s happening in one another’s lives, so we know who to serve and we know who to, like we’re engaged in praying for one another. Just that community is priceless. It is so beautiful and um and to Get to associate with people who help me want to be a better person is beautiful, and then we’re there gathered together where. We are learning the lessons of the gospel, even even if I am in a position where I’m not allowed to teach, um. I can receive inspiration and make comments, right? I can share my understanding with these other people as I’m hearing their understanding. And, you know, some things won’t resonate with me, some things will. Sometimes I’ll come home really frustrated,

[00:35:22] but then I’ll have a great discussion or a great study session. It still leads me, even the bad lessons can lead me into truth and into Into God. And so those are some of my thoughts that I, I know I’m all over the place, but these are some of the reasons I stay is um. The number one central reason I stay is because God has told me to. God has told me that this is where God wants me to be. And at first, when I got that answer many years ago, it was a challenge. And even when I got the answer again, just a year and a half or a year ago, it was again at first a challenge, but The joy I have had and the gratitude I have had for that answer has grown and grown and grown and grown. I love this church. I love so much about this church and while There are things that you know I might might not agree with or that I might not. That that might not feel easy to me. I am so profoundly thankful to still be in this church to still, I don’t, I don’t wanna like, I guess I kind of feel like this is my church. This is my church too, and I’m not gonna let someone ruin it for me. I want this church. I want to stay and When I have seen, um, just all these people are coming to mind who served me and, you know, those, those are members of the church. And I don’t know other people like that. I mean, there are wonderful, beautiful people everywhere, but I would, I do believe that our effort to follow Christ in whatever in whatever church we are manifests fruit in our lives for most of us, and. I think that most of us, we still have weaknesses and shortcomings and flaws, but I think that most of us who try to follow Jesus Christ are better versions of ourselves for that effort. And I think that doing that in community is um, is the best way to do it. So let me see if there was anything else. Oh, I know, I know that also, you know, people really struggle down to the foundations with of the church. Like I said, the question about God or not. I just, I’ll share really quickly some of my thoughts about Joseph Smith because the jury’s out for me, for Joseph Smith. I know that a lot of people see it so clearly, but I think that it’s a lot easier to, I don’t think we can know for sure from the evidence. I think we have to really bring a lot of our personal belief to it. And, um, and so while Uh, a few years ago, so I used to teach and I still, maybe I’ll do an updated version of the education I used to, celestial education at some point, but, um, someone that, you know, it seems like you can’t ever do much of anything without getting, getting, you know,

[00:38:28] if you stick your head up, you’re gonna get shot at and um so someone did this takedown piece on me that was actually incredibly difficult at the time because I had shared a lot of very Personal information and spiritual experiences that I that I consider rather sacred, right? I had shared them and then they had been twisted and turned and written into this. My, my um My good friend actually sent it to me and was like, Michelle, this looks bad because it put experiences that I had told some people about. It put them in an order and filled in motivations and that were that were not there. It like took true things but put them in a way that made it just seem diabolical. And I, I, that was, that was actually what I thought when I read it. I was like, This is diabolically brilliant, like it has enough truth in it. That it can convince people who know me, who I’ve shared some of these things with, and yet it’s completely not true, you know. And um I had to get through that. It was a very, very difficult experience for me, obviously. But it actually served me well because when I started reading, um, well, the CES letter, for example, as soon as I started reading that, I all of a sudden was overwhelmed with the same spirit, and I was like, I know what this is. Oh my goodness, this in my perspective is taking enough truth, but putting it together with motives and assigning, putting it in certain orders and assigning motives that You know, I know from my personal experience, very well may not be there. We have no evidence of that. So for me, I still, um, I am still grateful for Joseph Smith and what he contributed, and I see him as a very good mortal with flaws, but not as in any way, uh. An evil person, so I can stay with, but at the same time, I do know that in our, you know, everybody is flawed, right? We shouldn’t put anybody in the place of God, and I just don’t want to put anyone in a pedestal. My, my testimony in God is not in any way dependent on my testimony. I don’t, I can’t ever say I have a testimony of Joseph Smith. I feel love and gratitude for what, for, for, for much of what Joseph Smith gave to us. I feel profound love and gratitude. But I don’t have a testimony of Joseph Smith, I wouldn’t say, because that’s not where my faith and trust is, um, but I don’t see him as in any way a villain. I think that he I think that I think I, I am happy to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I think there’s a lot of room. There’s a lot of room for doubt for the dark claims that are made of him. So if you’re, so that’s what I would say is keep studying, don’t just believe it’s so easy.

[00:41:21] Like if anyone had been given that that hit job that was written on me, either only knowing a little bit about me or not knowing me, they would have, they could have just believed it, but um, you know, I, but I would hope that they would have um gotten to know me instead of just believed what was said about me. And so, so anyway, I, I wanted to mention that mention that quickly about Joseph Smith, and then let’s see, have I left anything out that I wanted to talk about again? I hope that this was all at all useful. OK, so yeah, this is the last thing I’ll say is that I I believe so strongly in the goodness of God and in the truth, the existence of God, the goodness of God, and in the beauty of what God has given us and what God has ordained. I do believe that. Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and is a beautiful thing. And I do believe that morality makes societies better. And um I love, what is it our 13th article faith. I’m so frazzled, but if there’s anything good, virtuous, beautiful, lovely, praiseworthy, we seek after these things. I know I butchered that. I’ll listen to this later and go, oh my gosh. And, um, but I love. I want to bring my children up in morality in um. Seeing the value of sacrifice and service and um keeping the gifts God has given us within the bounds that God has set in all things in a tradition of fasting, in a tradition of prayer, in a these things I hold in very high esteem and I value so very much and so I guess um. I guess in this big long jumbled that I hope is useful in some way, I just will. And by bearing my testimony. Right, cause that’s what we do, um. I do absolutely know God. I know that God exists. I know that God is love and light and truth. And I know that the entire purpose of my life is to come to know God more and more and to become more and more like God and to do all I can to serve God. Anyway, that God will allow me to be an instrument. Which are those are the profoundest blessings I know. I know of nothing that brings more joy and fulfillment and purpose than. Than being given an errand by the Lord. I, I love that. I love. The doctrine of Jesus Christ and of selflessness combined with incredible power and truth. I love Knowing that there is. That there is always. Light and hope, even in the darkest times.

[00:44:36] I love how God has always shown up for me and given me purpose and direction even in the darkest times. I love that there that I can know the difference between hope and charity and faith versus shame and hopelessness and worthlessness that I know which source is the truth for each of I I I know where the source is for each of those, and I know which one that I can turn to. I love. The spirit of discernment that I have been blessed with and been able to develop through the things I have been taught. I love the Book of Mormon, as I said, I love things that point toward Christ. And for me, the Book of Mormon does not point to Joseph Smith. There’s not the Book of Mormon points to Jesus Christ, and it is filled with profound beauty and power and the spirit. I love gathering together with. With children of God who are in my community and being given the opportunity to love them, I do, I do believe in Jesus Christ, and I want to become more and more like the virtues that I think Jesus exemplifies, exemplifies for us. I um, I love the teaching of Zion and what we are striving to become. I, um, this again is so jumbled and I apologize, but at the heart of it, I love that. But even if I don’t look at everything exactly the same way, I can still find the beautiful things in the words that are spoken by our leaders because there are many beautiful things, and I love that they speak them, and that I get to hear them, and that I can take what benefits me. And, and, and that’s all I have to take, right? Because the church is a vehicle to bring me to God. The goal isn’t for me to be brought to the church. The church is for the goal is for the church to help be a conduit to bring me to God and I and and my family, and I feel that it does that very, very well. I am profoundly thankful for the people that give their time and that sacrifice so much. I I am indebted to those who did again claim my loyalty to the church. I have a dear friend who served me in ways that I will never, never be able to thank her adequately for. I have a stake president and a steak presidency who showed up. In the darkest time and physically themselves served me in ways that were so humble and so genuine that I. Will never go a day of my life without remembering that I have the opportunity to serve and love others. I, I’m just going on and on in circles, but I just want to share my genuine love for Jesus Christ, for this gospel, and for this church. And so while there are Many that are really hard on the church, I under, or because maybe the church has been really hard on them. I understand, and I’m so sorry. I do understand. While there are people who think the church is perfect and that those who leave or those who struggle with it, they’re the ones with the problem. I understand where you are. I would plead with you to please reconsider your position and how you think about others because That attitude is part of what makes it so hard for many of us to stay. And um

[00:48:21] I think that all in all, because we look to Jesus Christ, and because we look we because we look to God, it’s all gonna be OK, right? So anyway, that, that is my testimony is that I am a daughter of God. In the church that I love. I am a mother of a family. I was taught to value motherhood. I was allowed to want to be a mom. I know that people mock the song my mom wrote when I grew up. I want to be a mother, but. What a beautiful thing for a young woman to be able to claim that, because I think that many, many, many young women do want to grow up to be mothers, and that shouldn’t be something that we have to hide or be ashamed of or not have the opportunity to do. I love that our church teaches chastity and unity and teaches men to honor women and teaches women to honor men and Makes them want to create families together and teaches them how to raise families in truth and light and love, and I know we can do better in all of these areas, but my gosh, we do a really good job in many, many ways. So I guess my hope is that as many people as feel that it’s possible or feel inspired to will. Feel inspired desire to stay in the church and to try to make it better, cause the church only is the people, right? So, so if we are in the church trying to be the best people we can be, then the church gets better. I love when if I said, I do not know the meaning of all things. Nevertheless, I know that God loveth his children, and I guess I, I that was paraphrased, not quoted directly, and I guess that I can say in a similar way. I don’t know or understand or agree with everything about my church and everything in my church’s history, but I do know. That we can find God here. I do know that God is present in this church and that the spirit of God is available to us through and in this church, and I do know that God blesses us with light and truth and love because God loves us and So while we have difficult things in our past. Um, I am so thankful that they’re in our past and that we’re continuing to always seek more light and more truth. Uh, we have some difficult things in our present, but we can continue to go forward, getting better and better. And you know what? There is not a single organization or institution or community in the world that doesn’t have difficult things in it and some really difficult things in its past, right? And so, so I don’t have to. Claim everything in our past in order to find God here in the present in this church that I love. So I will wrap up, I guess, by saying these things in the name of my Lord and my Savior Jesus Christ. Amen. So thank you for sticking around for this episode of 132 Problems. My name is Michelle Stone, and I will see you next time.