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A frank and honest discussion between an active LDS mother and her lesbian and transgender children.

Links

Elder Holland 2021 BYU speech
Elder Holland 1980 BYU speech
Elder Oaks Conference talk: Truth and the Plant, October 2018. (Kate thought it might be Love and the Law, but that was not correct.)

Transcript

[00:01] Michelle: Welcome to episode 32. This episode requires a special introduction. Usually we discuss the problems of polygamy, and today in this departure from our normal topic we are discussing another problem that many of us in the church are navigating, namely the problem of church doctrine and issues of homosexuality, transgenderism, and just the broad umbrella of LGBT issues. My daughters agreed one day to sit down with me and have a very frank, open, honest, difficult conversation because this is something we’re navigating in our family. We did this over a month ago and I have been sitting on it this entire time, not daring to release it because it is. For more reasons than I can tell you, it is the most challenging and vulnerable episode I will have released and may maybe ever will release. I am perfectly aware that everybody watching this episode will have well, many people will have very strong feelings and critiques and judgments. And I guess what I want to say from the outset is None of you can possibly judge any of us more harshly than we tend to judge ourselves. Um, those on every side of this issue will have different thoughts, and, um, in watching through watching this discussion and trying to decide whether to release it, I so many times was wishing I could censor myself. Michelle, be quiet, let her talk, yeah, it means so many things and the difficult. Truths that we shared with each other. These are conversations, like I said, that we, I don’t often share my views because I don’t find them to be terribly helpful in the relationship. But, um, my hope in recording this and my, my daughter’s hope, as we discussed doing it, the hope was that maybe. People watching it could gain some insight into both the challenge and maybe some ways, the challenge that these issues create and maybe some ways to successfully navigate them. Um, anyone who wants to critique the the thing I want to say is that my daughters and I are very close. We are very good friends. They are incredibly good people. And I think that they know that I’m a good person and the relationship is the priority. And so, um, I, my hope is that people will see things and say, oh, that’s a really good idea. I want to follow that model. And if people see things that say, oh my gosh, I can’t believe that. That’s so terrible, that then they can say, oh, I’m gonna do it differently in my life and my relationship rather than, um, you know, being too harshly judgmental against us. I One of the main issues I have is the fierce. Um, mama bear protectiveness of my beautiful little girls. And so, um, in releasing this, I feel like I’m making all three of us very vulnerable. I’ve already had people who’ve known that I had one gay daughter be really harsh, that I am supportive and loving of my daughter. I, I don’t know what they want, but it, it, you know, I just know I do feel the major mama bear vibes. Um, my girls are awesome. And so I welcome feedback. I hope that it can be given in love. Um, and I hope that this can be useful and helpful and insightful, and both, both, like I said, for the positive and for the negative, and I hope that it can help us all grow in love and understanding, because that’s what I think we need more of. I don’t think we need more division and judgment. So with that, I offer this episode, as I said, it is not on our normal topic of polygamy. And so for those who are only interested in that topic, go ahead and skip this episode. For those who are only interested in this topic, please feel free to listen to this one in isolation. I do welcome anyone interested to go ahead and engage with this entire series because I think it is very useful as we navigate the challenges of LDS doctrine that many of us are trying to find our way through. So with that being said, thank you for joining us for episode 32 of 132 Problems. Welcome to a very special edition of 132 Problems. We are taking a little bit of a detour from our normal topic today to discuss some things that I think are very pertinent and at the forefront of our culture, a lot of things that we’re dealing with in society and especially in our church. So I am here with two of my very favorite people. These are my daughters, Kate and Emma. They are my identical twins. These are babies 3 and 4, and when I had 4 in diapers, they were the reason why because they were our, we weren’t plan. to get pregnant and we ended up having twins, babies, and so, um, so I had two boys 18 months apart, 18 months later, had these two. So yeah, that’s go me, right? But look, they survived and I think they are fantastic people. So we were all just talking and we decided this is really spur of the moment and spontaneous and unplanned, so you’re getting the raw deal. I mean the the raw footage, I guess, but not a raw deal I hope. But um Kate and Emma, so they’ve asked me to go ahead and kind of give some groundwork. They both are soccer players. They are college grads played soccer in college and moving on to working on their masters now they’re Awesome girls and um Emma told me when I think you were 14 1 15 I believe you were 14. There’s our first disagreement, but she came out to me as gay when she was 14 or 15 depending on which of us you talk to and. OK, I’m outvoted. That’s and and about 6 months later, Kate came out to me as gay, and this is one of the few times that they hadn’t spoken to each other first. I was the first to know. So that that that was awesome and I will tell you that um. Made me feel like a good mom because I knew that my girls could talk to me about anything and would talk to me about anything and I was very, very happy to be able to have those conversations. I think they went really well. And um, and ironically when Kate was getting ready to leave for college, I um had a little conversation with her that they haven’t stopped teasing me about when I affirmed Kate. I just want to tell you, I just felt like I need to tell her you are a beautiful, perfect gay woman, and you don’t need to be anything different, right? And they made fun of me forever, but I guess in a way. Now I’ve been validated to some extent because in addition to dealing with um What’s the word I’m looking for? I sexual orientation. Yeah, in addition to sexual orientation, Kate is now dealing with gender identity issues and trying to navigate. That experience, have I, have I done an OK job in speaking for you? So Emma, can you tell us how you identify? What, what do you like to describe yourself?

[08:08] Emma Stone: I identify as lesbian currently, um, yeah, I’m into women and maybe a man and yeah, that’s.

[08:20] Michelle: My feeling on Emma is I think you’re like bi slash gay, right, depending on the person. I think she hasn’t ever had a good date with a guy, so that’s probably been part of it, right? Is that fair to say? OK, so anyway, so maybe there’s the right guy out there, maybe there’s the right girl out there, OK. And Kate, how do you identify

[08:44] Kate Stone: queer, I don’t know, um. I like women, mostly.

[08:50] Michelle: OK. And where are you on the gender identity spectrum? How are you doing with that?

[08:56] Kate Stone: Um. Mhm.

[09:02] Michelle: Still pretty raw, yeah, it’s OK. Just go ahead, yeah, take your time.

[09:06] Kate Stone: Um, I have gender dysphoria, self-diagnosed, um, and I,

[09:12] Michelle: well, you’re working with a counselor, looking for a better counselor, but,

[09:15] Kate Stone: but, um. I identify as transgender, so

[09:21] Michelle: transgender dealing, struggling with gender dysphoria, yeah, and OK. And I um I think, I think it’s useful for people to see um This conversation in part because as I’ve spoken to Kate, because I have some really strong ideas and opinions and attitudes and what Kate has really helped our family see is um and I, I, I make it sound like we weren’t before, but, but one thing that Kate has really um Been a good voice for in in my in our communities in general is the need for compassion and understanding and support rather than just opinions. Is that a fair way to say it? OK, so um what we hope to do is just kind of talk about how we are navigating these issues as a mother and daughters who I think are really close and care about each other but who maybe have different perspectives on on some things, right? And and so that’s what I wanted to talk about. I know that there is some risk in this conversation because so many people have such strong opinions and these can be divisive issues and some people might think. I’m doing it all wrong for some ways, and some people might think I’m doing it all wrong for other ways, you know, everyone can have their, their ideas and their own way of thinking how they would navigate these situations or how they are navigating these situations in our family. We just, I think that Um, I think that we all feel like we’re doing a pretty good job, right? And so we wanted to share some of our thoughts. So, um, so I’m gonna start with a question that you guys won’t expect, OK? And I’ll ask Emma first. What would you say? Are some of the best blessings of having been raised in the church. How has it blessed you as a person or benefited your life?

[11:23] Emma Stone: Um, I think that. Well, uh, from an early age, I learned kind of the importance of community and being there for people and. Uh, I still very much believe in. Being kind to people, like, even if it’s smiling at strangers in the street, which is kind of a Utah, I think that’s unique to Mormon culture in a way. And so I think yeah, mostly the community aspect I think has been really important.

[11:57] Michelle: um, so like, like growing up singing songs like I’m trying to be like Jesus that like that had an effect on you,

[12:03] Emma Stone: yeah, yeah, and I think also, yeah, just some of the doctrines of trying to Be like Christ, um, and whatever that means to me specifically has been really important as well.

[12:17] Michelle: Thank you. I know that that’s OK.

[12:20] Emma Stone: OK.

[12:20] Michelle: Are you currently, how would you currently describe your relationship with the church?

[12:23] Emma Stone: Um, currently I’m, I would say that I’m not part of the church. I haven’t removed my records. I haven’t really done anything actively. I just, um. It doesn’t feel like my spiritual base anymore. OK.

[12:40] Michelle: OK. Does it feel like a place of safety or comfort for you?

[12:44] Emma Stone: Um, not for the most part, I think, yeah, some things. Have shifted and it mainly causes me stress I would say. Not necessarily the, the scriptures or anything, just more of um like going to church and that

[12:59] Michelle: some

[12:59] Emma Stone: of

[12:59] Michelle: the teachings and now even the community. OK, OK. I, I want to say I feel like there has been a shift because we’re gonna get into some of the experiences that have been quite difficult, right? And I feel like My perception is that you’re now enough past those, that there’s not kind of the acute sense of threat or harm or pain. It feels to me, at least how you’re describing your relationship to the church right now, it feels like there’s not quite as much animosity as there was at one point. Is that fair to say?

[13:30] Emma Stone: I think I’ve come full circle in terms of, it’s not really where I feel at home anymore, but I’m also not. Yeah, I don’t have the same sort of of like defensiveness.

[13:42] Michelle: So when you, when your brother gets his mission call and you go to his farewell this time, how will that, what will you have to do to be able to go?

[13:51] Emma Stone: I think it will be OK. I think it will be better. Um, it still brings me a lot of anxiety to kind of be in those situations, but I think. I think it’s a lot more manageable. I have a lot better coping skills and then also not quite as, yeah, not quite as acute anxiety anymore. So, just some deep breaths,

[14:14] Michelle: and you think you’ll be OK for the most part. Yeah, OK. Can I ask you the same question? Did you get a minute to think about it? So let me first ask you what, what can you say you’re grateful for for having been raised in the church? Um,

[14:28] Kate Stone: I think that. I do love the teachings of Jesus. I don’t know if I’m fully consider myself Christian. I don’t know if I believe fully everything about the Bible, but I do think that you’re

[14:44] Michelle: exploring your beliefs and worldview.

[14:46] Kate Stone: Um, I do think that if everyone just generally lived Christ’s teachings, we’d all be in a much better situation. Um, and I think that like Emma said, it, I think it helped me emphasize kindness and Patience, which is not something that comes supernaturally to me, but um, and it um uh on the river side, it kind of did help me gain a base of critical thought and um. Being able to discuss things with them, yeah, actually family and friends, so

[15:20] Michelle: yeah, I also, so are you kind of like. I’ve, I’ve for a long time felt like some of our best experiences from church are the conversations we have afterward either after on the way home from seminary or after a Sunday school lesson, and we, and we really, it starts a lot more thought exploration discussion for us, and those were some of the good things that came. OK, good. OK. And then I think my other question is how would you describe your relationship with the church now?

[15:51] Kate Stone: Mostly the same as Emma. I haven’t removed my records or anything, but,

[15:54] Michelle: um, can I, can I interrupt? Does either you you feel like that’s something you would want to do or will do at some point?

[16:02] Kate Stone: Potentially, I’m I’m. I’m not very concerned with it right now, at least I don’t think you need to harms or helps either way, so yeah, it’s a lot of work. I have felt like I, I might, um, I think I hold slightly more resentment towards the church than Emma does, um, which I should probably work through, but, um,

[16:28] Michelle: well, I think you are. I think you are. I think there’s just a lot of stuff that’s happened. OK,

[16:34] Kate Stone: um, but as of right now, I don’t have plans to take any action or anything like that. You don’t feel

[16:40] Michelle: the need

[16:41] Kate Stone: to, not right now, no.

[16:42] Michelle: OK. So, so, Kate, um, I, I know that you’re a little close to tears, so I’m hesitant to bring things up. Kate Kate was engaged recently and so I do want to know, um, well, I guess the church doesn’t still have the policy of excommunicating. Did that get ended?

[17:01] Kate Stone: Um, I think there have been instances since then, I think it’s a little bit

[17:05] Michelle: more but it’s not mandatory.

[17:08] Kate Stone: I think it’s more case by case.

[17:10] Michelle: OK. So, so I guess what I wanted to ask is, you feel kind of like, like a truce, I would say almost a like, hey, you know what I’m like live and the live. I don’t need to remove my records. I don’t need to fight against, you know, that right. So how would it feel to you if, if in that place you were approached with what, what do they call it, not a disciplinary action, right? How would that affect you at this time?

[17:41] Kate Stone: I don’t think I really care, I think I would. Maybe it would provide some closure. I don’t know. Honestly, I think I would just do like a you can’t fire me because honestly I, I, yeah, I don’t care one way or the other, but if they, I would definitely be a little bit bugged, but not because I was being excommunicated.

[18:04] Michelle: That’s interesting, you know what? That’s interesting for me to hear because I guess I thought you guys, I think that since I am much more connected to the church, it would be harder for me then because I feel like it would be really hard for me if that happened, you know, but maybe that’s because I am still active and engaged and faithful. And I, I faithful is the wrong word, but I, I have. I still um believe in the gospel in a way that fits within the church, right? And so, um, so I think that would be hard on me as your mom, OK. OK, so, um, so now, now that we’ve gotten the positive, which I appreciate you, because I know that’s not what we spend as much time, you know. So can you tell me some of the, um, and this is a little hard for me to ask because I’m the one that raised them in the church, you know, can you tell me some of the things that you feel like have been hard or maybe damaging being raised in the church?

[19:09] Emma Stone: It was um. Yeah, I can go first again, um. Well, I mean the obvious. I, I’m gay and so that. And I have been forever, um, which I didn’t realize for a long time, but. Um, Sorry, that’s OK. I think that that definitely. Had an effect on my self-esteem and my ability to. Feel comfortable connecting with others even before I knew what was going on. I think part of me knew that I was different in some way and so that um was enough to kind of bring a lot of anxiety. Um. And then, well, can I kind of just share like you can uh yeah, well, um, I kind of started learning what being gay even was probably around age 9. Before that I had no concept of what it even was. I just, people would talk about having crushes on boys and I would be like, well, I guess I have a crush on that boy because I don’t know, you know, I don’t have any actual feelings towards them. um.

[20:27] Michelle: And I maybe I should just throw in here I. Um, was a very protective homeschooling my kids from the evils of the world, and so I don’t think that I did talk to you about.

[20:44] Emma Stone: I don’t, I mean, I don’t think any of us like it was.

[20:48] Michelle: I have another child who I thought was very possibly gay isn’t and I had no concept that you guys would be gay, which is funny because I, I, the very first two Christmases of life, I bought dolls. And when they were 2, before, before you were 1 and then when you were 1 and after that, I just was like, no, and bought lightsabers. Like there was no reason to ever buy a doll. Your whole lives, we kind of had a truce of you’ll wear a dress for 3 hours a week. I’ll tell just a couple funny stories. not that these are getting into the stereotypes and I don’t, and there aren’t stereotypes,

[21:27] Emma Stone: yeah, yeah, but definitely in our case it is kind of funny

[21:30] Michelle: is funny, yeah, we took him, so I had those two little boys and I had these two little girls, but I really had 4 little boys. So I mean we we you guys to Disneyland when you were I think 3. And um and I wanted to take my little girls to see the princesses, so we stood in line and then finally got up to where they talked to the princesses and I can’t remember was it was it Aurora, one of them was Sleeping Beauty, Sleeping Beauty and Aurora and Cinderella maybe something like that. Oh, OK, and I watched this conversation with my little girl. They were 3. And um the princesses were saying, who’s your favorite princess? What do you like to do? Who like like asking them, I can’t remember all of the questions, but who do you like to dress up as? And and Emma, who was always a little bit more willing to speak than Kate, just looked straight at them and said, actually we are tomboys. And and the princesses immediately were, Oh, do you like to climb trees and both of my girls with their faces lit up and they started telling them about the games they like to play, the toys they like to play with, and all the boy things they like to do. And so, but it never dawn because I was always a tomboy and I was always an athlete. It never dawned on me that you guys were gay. So anyway, so when she says they were kind of born gay.

[22:52] Emma Stone: I mean, no, I mean, I wanted to see the princesses too. OK,

[22:59] Michelle: so anyway, I interrupted you, so you go ahead and,

[23:02] Emma Stone: and that’s, um, yeah, uh, and so I, I, I started finding out what being gay even was at about probably age 8 or 9, and I started having this kind of mostly subconscious like worry, um, because I mostly learned about it in a negative context, um. And so yeah, I, I started learning more about it. I kind of had a couple of realizations. I remembered someone in a YouTube video like being asked if they were gay and saying, well, I think everyone’s a little bit gay and immediately being like, oh good, um. Um, I’m gonna be a little bit gay and then at some point I just decided to forget that information and uh do a little thing that we in the business like to call repressed, um, and That was kind of the deal for um 6 more years, I guess. Um, well, yeah, 14 or 15, so uh 5 or 6 more years. Um, and I just remember like. Whenever I would hear about being gay or like even think about it, I would have like a visceral like I would get like nauseated and like. It’s so grossed out and I didn’t know. Why, um, Until I started really. Kind of understanding what was going on at about 14, um, and it came out to you pretty soon after I like admitted it to myself.

[24:50] Michelle: Um my memory is that we went to see your little brother and big in a musical. OK, I was watching the show.

[24:58] Emma Stone: I’ll tell you what happened. So watching the show, I realized I had a crush on one of the girls. And I came back and I was sobbing.

[25:06] Michelle: She sobbed through the show, sobbed after the show. I wasn’t quite sure what was going on. Yeah.

[25:11] Emma Stone: And then we talked, but I think I said it was about something else. We

[25:15] Michelle: did, you did.

[25:16] Emma Stone: And so about a couple months later, I think right after I turned from 15, if I’m remembering correctly is when I like revisited it. I was like this is the actual reason and I remember just um. Pacing up here um for like an hour, uh trying to get up the courage to. Um, talk to you because all I could think about was. And I, I, I knew I could probably talk to you. I knew, like, you know, you were cool, but um all I could think about was how everybody would see me differently. And instead of um seeing me as your daughter or your sibling or anything, it would be my gay daughter and um. I still had a lot of hatred towards that part of myself and so it really. Um, Yeah, it really took me a long time to be able to um talk to anyone about it, um. Yeah, so that’s basically that’s like developmentally, I think, um, how it affected me a lot and then after I came out there were still uh a couple of things that really damaged my relationship with the church and and with people around me.

[26:34] Michelle: Yeah, so we’ll get into that more. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing all of that. I know that’s that’s hard. It was beautifully described. I hope that people can um get a little bit of a sense of. You know, what your experience has been, and yeah, I think we’re culturally far beyond the place of, oh Emma, so why did you choose to be gay? I don’t think that that’s where we are right now, but I still think I still think it’s useful to hear the internal struggle because I know that even when you spoke to me. Which, um, and I’ll and I’ll share a little of how I was prepared, you know, but even when you spoke to me, it was, I’m planning to stay in the church. I’m planning to live this kind of a life like

[27:15] Emma Stone: I forgot that it was still and I planned on being straight for for like a couple of years after that. I still was, was planning on having just a mixed orientation marriage or

[27:26] Michelle: I’m

[27:26] Emma Stone: that was gonna be my life

[27:28] Michelle: which I will honestly say was. Kind for me. I mean, do you know what I mean like, like for me as a mom, it was um at that point I was able to be like, OK, OK, you know, like, like it wasn’t, it wasn’t that I judged you or was saying what you had to do because I do remember that what I said is This is your life and you’re the one who gets to live it, and you’re the one who has to live it. So you need to make these decisions, but please in your entire life, no matter which path you feel led to or where you feel led. Stay close to me and stay close to God and know that we will always love you. And, and I think that that has held, you know, so yeah, but it was from me, it was a gentle because I’ve had to go like like it’s also been emotional for me figuring this out, right? So for me the First experience I had was I’m going to stay in the church. It was like, oh, OK, we’re fine. All right. So Kate, um, are you up to sharing? I know this is some of this is a little more raw for you as well. So tell us some of the hard things or some of the Pain or damage that you feel you encountered growing up in the church,

[28:50] Kate Stone: but also um. Yeah, there was definitely this feeling that. I was the problem and I needed to change um something about myself, um. As similar, I didn’t really have any concept of. Orientation or anything, um, for actually a while I think even into my teens I like didn’t really understand, um, because I thought everyone felt like me so I didn’t realize um. But nope, I was different then uh

[29:28] Michelle: and you were both very shy anyway, so it was maybe harder to relate to others and you know, so you wouldn’t know necessarily how other girls felt because

[29:38] Emma Stone: you didn’t talk about this kind of stuff and I think that was also backed up by the church just kind of didn’t talk about

[29:47] Michelle: your primary so um.

[29:54] Kate Stone: I don’t even know where I was. No, it’s OK, um. I just Yeah, I know, I remember for many years praying that I would be a. Normal and fixed, yep. So, and actually before I, uh, came out, there were, there was a while where I thought that I was by and I was, you know, planning on only ever dating men and just never talking to anyone about it. Um, and then as soon as I I think um I came to you right after our 16th birthday um because we had gotten watched Wonder Woman and I

[30:41] Michelle: remember this because we went to Wonder Woman and I thought I knew you were both gay.

[30:48] Kate Stone: I think you knew I was gay. I don’t think. Yeah, OK, well, I’m gonna trust you guys because it’s um, yeah, I just remember being like, uh, Chris Pine is not attractive. He wasn’t the one you were the 1st 20 minutes when they were on the island was the best part of, um, and so as soon as I realized that I was really into women, I kind of Came out to both of you, I think on the same day actually, so yeah, OK, yeah, yeah.

[31:20] Michelle: I remember you emailed Emma and Emma said, have you talked to?

[31:27] Emma Stone: Yeah, so yeah, you emailed me and said, hey, I think I’m gay. And then

[31:31] Michelle: you emailed back

[31:32] Emma Stone: sharing a room by the way like we could have talked, we just did. I just, yeah, nervous that’s OK. And then I sent back me too or something and then you yeah yeah have you talked to and then, yeah, so,

[31:48] Michelle: can you share the experience you had kind of getting your answer. So we have a big 12 passenger van because we have a lot of kids. Our vans named Rumble Buffin, those who have read the Chronicles of Narnia will understand, and I was driving and having a conversation with probably Lincoln, their older brother, and um, and can you, can you share that experience you had? Yeah,

[32:13] Kate Stone: I’ll try and I think this was after

[32:15] Michelle: you hadn’t talked to me yet. This is what gave you

[32:18] Kate Stone: courage to talk to me. I mean, for a long time I’ve been really struggling and um not sure, yeah, praying and not sure what I was going to. Do about it, but um, yeah, she was talking, we were all in the van. Um, we were on our way home from someplace and

[32:37] Michelle: um I can’t remember the topic, but I remember that Lincoln asked me something about someone that was in the news that had done something bad, I can’t remember, and he said, Mom, what do you think about this person or something? And I said, well, I don’t know the details. I don’t know what what the truth is, but what I know is that whatever that person may have done, God loves them. Is that, is that along the lines of what I said? Something something like I know that, you know, they probably just need our prayers and God loves them no matter what they may have done something along those lines, is that right? OK. And what was your experience when you heard me say that about someone else who had done something bad

[33:19] Kate Stone: like a criminal. I don’t know. I just um. Uh I Still felt like it was a bad thing, definitely, but I think I was more. At peace with it, um, and I was able to realize that, yeah, God would love me. um

[33:43] Michelle: What you told me when you told me about it was that you actually felt the love of God confirmed to you. I love you and I will love you. Is that like kind of maybe the first time you really felt an outpouring of divine love for you? Is that, do I have that right? And you kind of were like, I’m OK,

[34:03] Kate Stone: yeah.

[34:04] Michelle: God loves me. God doesn’t hate me.

[34:06] Kate Stone: Yeah, yeah, pretty much.

[34:09] Michelle: And then, and then when Kate came out to me, it wasn’t the same as when Emma came out to me. Right, you’d have that answer and Kate, Kate came out to me, Kate was gay and Kate was going to be gay,

[34:28] Kate Stone: right? I mean, uh. I think it was. I don’t know. I think I was probably still in the kind of figuring out what I was gonna do, but I was definitely more, yeah, open to that possibility than I think Emma was.

[34:45] Michelle: I remember we went for a drive and I remember one of the questions we’ve asked because I was still kind of like, OK, is there hope? Is there wiggle room? Is there, you know, I mean like I think I was supportive. I, you know, but I remember we went for a drive and we’ve always loved. The BBC Pride and Prejudice, right? I mean, when he dies, come on, even you guys, come on, right? And so I remember asking like, OK. Mr. Darcy or Elizabeth, like, and, and you, and I was shocked when you were like, oh, Elizabeth, OK. I thought at least Mr. Darcy,

[35:18] Kate Stone: but

[35:19] Michelle: OK, so you were you like you’re pretty darn gay. OK, so you don’t identify as bi really at all.

[35:28] Kate Stone: A little more open to it now, ironically, but um I don’t know that, yeah, but probably not.

[35:34] Michelle: I’m getting information too. OK. OK. So can we talk about, so my recollection is that when you guys came out and I, and I, everything I say I’m so nervous about because I feel like some people will hear it one way, some people will hear it another way, and so, you know, everyone can criticize, but I guess my request is like please don’t. Like we’re navigating this. We’re the ones with the inspiration, right? And, and we’re just trying to tell you how we’ve done it in the hopes that it might be helpful in some ways and maybe some people will hear something say, oh, I think I would do that differently. That’s OK. But like, like we don’t need any hate now, right? But um, my, my memory is that when you, especially Emma, when you came out to me. I felt like What I know of you guys is that you don’t like a lot of attention on you. You’ve always been very quiet, like, like, if I ever made them go up and sing on Mother’s Day with the primary, they, I think I made them once, and they cried and cried like their brother went over and put his arms around them and the board all talked to me about that for years about how sweet that was. But, but the fact was they could not, they did not like attention on themselves, right? And so I knew like kind of from Emma, I, I, I kind of was like, Emma, you’re young and you don’t have to have a label. You don’t have to fly a flag like, like you, you don’t have to keep this a secret, but you don’t have to be something or does that mean like you don’t have to come out or have a label on you and I wasn’t doing it to say, I wasn’t doing it in the way of like, there are no gay people in the church, not not that I was doing it more to say you don’t have to take this on. Publicly, you can just take your time to figure out you, right?

[37:25] Emma Stone: Yeah,

[37:25] Michelle: and I think that was helpful

[37:26] Emma Stone: in some ways. I think that was also, well, because I was still in that place. I kind of took it as like a OK, like, like I will just keep it in.

[37:35] Michelle: Did you feel like I was saying just stay in the closet? Is that because I wasn’t trying to say that, but that a

[37:40] Emma Stone: little bit, but I think just because I was coming from that place. So yeah, looking back, I get it and it is helpful to me and also it did just like. I don’t know. I’ve been much more comfortable just going at it in my own time. OK,

[37:56] Michelle: so, yeah, because you really haven’t actually ever come out. I

[38:00] Emma Stone: have, well, I don’t, I’m not really on social media anyway and so I, I, I’m, I mean, I’m on it, but I don’t post or anything and so I come out to most people I know as if it comes up and if I. want to talk about it, but this

[38:14] Michelle: is kind of Emma’s official coming out. Yeah, yeah, out of the closet, Emma. OK, so is that right? And Kate, I think to a lesser like I think you also didn’t want to be like a spokesperson, but you were much more, I think, comfortable in your skin when you came out, not trying to navigate like. Like I think you came out a little bit differently than Emma. You, you had already got an internal piece with this is who I am and God loves me as I am, right? So, but we were in this place. I just want to talk about the seminary lesson were were you 16 at the time or 15 still? 16 I think. OK, and so. None of you hadn’t like told any, so, so you were still mostly homeschooled doing a couple of school classes and then in a seminary class, right? And um I’m just trying to set the stage a little bit, but like no one knew you were gay. It wasn’t, you were just living your lives. OK, not that it was a secret, just again, you weren’t having to have attention on yourselves, right? And so do you guys want to describe the seminary lessons you remember well enough, do you want me to describe because I remember well.

[39:31] Emma Stone: Yeah, well, I think we can all kind of go, but I do want to say in that space, I was still in the closet

[39:38] Michelle: in the church seminary and feeling like you

[39:44] Emma Stone: just because it was. wrapped up kind of because

[39:46] Michelle: it was homeschooling Utah that’s kind of how it goes, um, but

[39:52] Emma Stone: yeah, I start from what I remember I, so

[39:56] Michelle: you were in a seminary class that was generally OK. We would have a lot of discussions after like, like I remember on the polygamy discussion one of you tried to push back because we had. we were already on this topic. We’ve had a lot of conversations. And what was it that he would always say,

[40:10] Emma Stone: we can talk about this all day. So we’re just gonna move on

[40:15] Michelle: a tough question was asked, that was the that was the go to answer. OK, so, so one day you just innocently went to seminary and what happened?

[40:25] Emma Stone: Um, actually I don’t remember how it started,

[40:28] Michelle: the Holland.

[40:30] Emma Stone: Oh yep, that, that, that was what hit me the worst.

[40:35] Michelle: Yeah,

[40:36] Emma Stone: it was turned on the projector and he read it out, um, basically the elder Holland quote.

[40:42] Jeffrey Holland: You can change. You can be anything you want to be in righteousness. If there’s one lament I cannot abide, and I hear it from adults as well as students, it is the poor pitiful, withered cry. Well, that’s just the way I am. If you want to talk about discouragement, that’s one that discourages me. Though not a swearing man, I’m always sorely tempted when hearing that. Please spare me your speeches about that’s just the way I am. I’ve heard that from too many people who wanted to sin and call it psychology.

[41:18] Emma Stone: If you have not been healed, it’s because you haven’t had the faith to be healed, and um he equated that to being queer.

[41:27] Michelle: Um. So now, now I want to clarify cause we’re gonna look this up, so we’ll get a little better picture. Do you remember was the Elder Holland? My memory is the Elder Holland quote wasn’t specifically about being gay. It was a quote about Jesus has the power to heal you if you have the faith, but seminary,

[41:46] Emma Stone: the, well, I think the was about fighting the natural man and this was kind of obedience versus loved one. No, that was a separate one that was kind of along the same lines, but this was fighting the natural man and he brought it to homosexuality pretty much exclusively, which was interesting to me,

[42:06] Michelle: but did you have anything you want to add before I had some

[42:09] Kate Stone: he just I don’t know he just. Very, it felt like a very hostile environment. It was not at all a compassionate. He was making fun of gay people.

[42:24] Michelle: So what some of my memories of it are, and you can clarify me that the theme was Jesus can heal you. Jesus can heal gay people because there wasn’t any, it was always third person, right? Like, like Jesus can heal the gays.

[42:37] Emma Stone: Yeah, no, he talked about how someone like him about it and said Jesus can heal you.

[42:45] Michelle: And if you aren’t healed it’s because you lack faith and You, you’re saying I don’t need Jesus. I, I’m, I’m gonna be gay because I don’t need Jesus. So either you are in a place where you don’t have faith and you don’t need Jesus, or you will be healed and not be gay.

[43:05] Kate Stone: And this was after years of us praying to be healed, healed, trying to be straight, he brought

[43:11] Michelle: up. Well, yeah, talk about his sister.

[43:14] Emma Stone: 00 yeah, so, well, first of all, he talked about his sister who was gay. And so

[43:20] Michelle: the lesson was very much about her, yeah,

[43:22] Emma Stone: about her and then all gay people and then but

[43:25] Michelle: but using her as an object of how she doesn’t need God and how how

[43:29] Emma Stone: she talked to him about how she wasn’t broken, and he then told her that we’re all broken and we all need to be healed, um, but mainly her because she’s gay and how she didn’t come to his house because he wouldn’t allow her girlfriend to come to his house.

[43:46] Michelle: And she was bad in all of it. Like, so he was talking about his own sister in the third person, not with, I mean, I’m sure there was like, I love her and let me tell you all the things that are wrong with her. So, so it was not like, would you describe the lesson as compassionate toward gay people?

[44:05] Emma Stone: No, no,

[44:07] Michelle: it was, he was talking about her as an example of someone who didn’t need Jesus because she thought she was just fine the way she is.

[44:14] Emma Stone: Yeah, and he talked about how listening to Katy Perry turn people gay. Do you remember that part? Katy Perry? Is that why you’re gay? That’s why you’re still gay. That’s why they’re praying but yeah, I, I remember, um, very clearly and I think this hit me was that he Uh, used Time Mansfield also as an object, um, lesson, and for people who don’t know who Ty Mansfield is, he is, uh, someone who has come out as gay. He’s still in the church and he’s in a mixed orientation marriage, and he seems very happy and very, uh, complete in his life. Um, and that was someone who, when I was planning on being straight

[45:05] Michelle: was a model for you,

[45:07] Emma Stone: yeah, mhm. Well, um, getting emotional again, but um. So that hit me especially hard kind of because I had kind of to an extent gotten over that hump to where at least I knew that if I uh dated women, I wouldn’t hate myself and I wasn’t just not doing well enough. Um, and so for him to use Ty Mansfield in a way where he didn’t talk about. Di Mansfield and his journey and his experience, he talked about how God had turned him straight and how God could do the same for every gay. He specifically used the phrase, um, he turned Ty’s heart towards women, um, which I thought was. Kind of gross. Yeah, me too. He turned my heart, especially since Ty himself has talked about how that’s not really his experience, at least from what I know and what I’ve seen.

[46:03] Michelle: Yeah, we’ve talked a bit about about these topics because for me I I have a lot of love and respect for Ty Mansfield, and, and, and I, it’s hard for me to see him taking hate and judgment, right? And so I think Ty Mansfield is living his life and making choices, and people shouldn’t be hard on mixed orientation marriages either. So Ty Mansfield isn’t the problem. Well, unless he’s saying this is the path I I feel like people weaponize like someone made this choice and it’s working for him and that’s wonderful. So this is a path and maybe also say this person. It made a different choice. I mean, I don’t know exactly how it used, but in any case, don’t weaponize people and their personal choices and their lives because I think that’s where I know a lot of people would be, say, well, Ty did it to himself because he’s saying this is what everyone should do, but I’ve never heard him say this is what everyone should do. Maybe he’s saying this is what people could do, but I just don’t want to throw him under the bus yeah I mean no, I don’t think you were. I wanted to clarify. Yeah, OK, so. So I remember, so we have a lot of kids, right? You guys are number 3 and 4 of 1311 living. We didn’t have all of them at that time, but um I know that you had soccer practice that night. I was running other kids other places. I know that it was almost, well, it was the next day before we could talk about it. So you guys told me like you came home in a complete mess. You went to soccer and just kept crying, trying to see the ball, right? Like, like it was bad when we finally spoke the next day, you were still shaking. And The visual I had as we talked about it because for me I had still seen the church as our community and our place and our, you know, and I kind of felt this visceral feeling of like. Being in a corner with my arms around my two girls with like surrounded by javelins aimed at us, you know, it was like I felt actually under attack from our community and it wasn’t me, it was you guys. It was just my, my mama heart, you know, my maternal protective because we had talked enough that I knew where you guys were and how this hit you, right? Yeah. And so, um, so to me that was, that was a really sort of what do we call it a core memory from inside out or, you know, kind of a watershed moment, like I don’t know what the right term is like that was a life changing experience with your experience.

[48:46] Emma Stone: It was definitely a paradigm shift,

[48:48] Michelle: OK, where all of a sudden the church wasn’t safe because even though you’d had the struggles before, I think that was the first time for all of us that it felt like. This is.

[48:59] Emma Stone: Yeah, well, and I think even um more than the fact that it was, he gave the lesson, he was still just one guy, um, but it was the fact that everyone else loved the lesson and talked about how they loved the lesson and talked about how they loved him as a teacher and that kind of made me realize that I didn’t have a lot of allies and yeah,

[49:23] Michelle: yeah, I remember you saying that. Like, like that you were sitting there feeling like everyone was being told how they should see you, how they should look at you if they knew that that was knowing that you didn’t have faith and said, I don’t need Jesus, and in a very demeaning, he used a lot of quotes that were really harsh. OK, so I Actually felt like, OK, maybe there’s a purpose to this. I guess we got some time and you guys decided you were OK with me going and talking to him, right? So Dad and I went, asked if we could meet with him and went and in kindness by no means in, you know, and, and he actually was really thankful because I guess he had just done a doctoral dissertation on passive aggressiveness in the church. Like he was like, why do people go to their state president instead of speaking to the seminary teacher? So we went and spoke to the seminary teacher. And explained what this did to you guys cause it’s I don’t think you went back to seminary. That not that year.

[50:27] Emma Stone: No, I think we went, we went back later, but it was the same you go back a little bit? Yeah, yeah, we went a little bit. I know, yeah, and we only went back a few times actually I think and I just couldn’t engage after that and, and well, and the lessons that we went back to I think didn’t help. They weren’t necessarily on the same topic, but it was still a,

[50:51] Michelle: he was a very Like he had lessons on which is the higher law, love or obedience, and I, and I was always like why. Neither one can exist without the other. They’re not in conflict, but it was very much obedience over love and like we just like neither one can exist without the other. Like what are you doing? OK, so he just, he was a nice guy and a fun fun teacher but not teaching the gospel, not our flavor of the gospel, shall we say, right? But I know that it really affected your relationship with the church, right. And then do you have any other, I, I feel like, do you have anything you wanna add, Kate? I think we’ve covered it. And then I have a few other memories that stand out to me. I know that there was a general conference one time and um one time, only that one that one time, but there was one in particular where Kate, you were getting ready to go to work and I was like, hey, just come sit with me for a minute because I was still like. Like, um, I don’t think I was like stay in the church, you’re going on missions, you know, but I still was kind of like spiritual connection is important. And even if you go to hear things you disagree with and we talk about it, it still spurs thought. It’s still like, like staying grounded in God, staying grounded in the spirit and the scriptures and the gospel is important. So I was still in that place, which I honestly still am in that place, right? But um I know that I said, Kate, just come listen to a conference talk but like until you have to go and you came and sat by me just in time for who to speak

[52:32] Kate Stone: our boy Oaks. OK, we have to be so respectful. It was an Elder Oaks.

[52:41] Michelle: OK, so do you remember which talk it was because there have been a lot. I think it was and I think it was that one?

[52:51] Kate Stone: I believe so.

[52:53] Michelle: OK. I remember how did it affect you?

[52:59] Kate Stone: It was harsh, um. It kind of, I mean, at this point, I, I think we both made a lot of progress or we all had, um, and it kind of felt like every time we were. healing, we would get punched in the face again, so.

[53:19] Michelle: Yeah, that was my feeling was, cause here I am. Hey, come sit by me and um Kate had to leave to go to work just before the talk was over and crying, had to go to work, couldn’t, you know, and then my feeling sitting there was like. We’re sitting here in the borderlands trying so hard to navigate a path and all of a sudden it was like the like what’s the word I’m looking for? What is the the the like the wall was just laid down the drawbridge up and it just came down and crushed us and it’s like one side or the other. You cannot be, you cannot be here and navigate this and it felt like we just got crushed by this. Like this black or white, in or out, no navigating, no choice, and I know you had to go to work and I was sick because I was one that was like, come sit with me and, you know, and then we went to church on Sunday and it was testimony meeting. And we heard, I know at least 2. Really strong testimonies about that talk and how much people loved it, which kind of did the same thing as the seminary class where I was like this was so awful and my community loved it. Yeah,

[54:39] Emma Stone: yeah, well, and that’s kind of a recurring theme in more recent things and more recent um talks about like Holland at BYU yeah the and the um what’s his name? Muskets. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, OK, um, yeah, uh, it makes it harder when faithful Mormons or straight people in general either outright love it or Um, try to try to justify and try to explain away and say, well, that’s not what he meant or and you shouldn’t be so sensitive and I, while I get where they’re coming from. It kind of doesn’t make sense to me because it doesn’t affect you in the same way. So it’s also see it the same because you don’t have the same wounds from hearing these things in this rhetoric over and over and over. Um, it’s much easier to be overly sensitive when you have open wounds that have not been allowed to heal because they keep

[55:43] Michelle: the way I’ve described it. When all of the skin has been rubbed away and it’s just an open sore, if, if I just touch like this and, and the skin’s there, it doesn’t hurt, but if all the skin’s rubbed away and I do that, it’s excruciatingly painful, right? And there are open wounds that haven’t had salve applied that are still being touched on. Is that good? And I, and I I heard the Elder Oaks talk and I, well, so, so I didn’t hear the Elder Oaks talk. I saw Era Holland, thank you. I’ve heard a lot of Elder Oaks. I hadn’t heard the Elder Holland talk. I heard the, I, I see, I feel like there’s a war, right, that I am like, hey, you know it’d be great if we could stop launching. You know, can we just like download the canons like for a long time muskets for a long time I felt like, oh if only I could like, hey, you know what, just like don’t even pay me just let me come give a little bit of guidance, right? Because you know, I forgive my arrogance, but, but like if I could just be like, can I just whisper in your ear like Never talk about people. Talk to people. Don’t talk about people struggling with same-sex attraction or people who are gay. Don’t talk about them. Talk to them with the message of God loves you and like, like with some inspiration. I always felt like the messages coming from the leaders of the church were 5 to 10 years behind the answers I’ve received, like that like there were things I would have said. Even, even before I knew I cause, so, so I at one point will share, I am probably in starting in. 2007, 2008 started having really strong answers about. Homosexuality and the gospel and how it all fits together and you know, that um that I won’t share here, but that in a way prepared me. If I, if I had to say it in the tiny little encapsulation, I would say that Oh, there’s no good way to say it in a tiny encapsulation. So forgive me if you have questions, we’ll clarify at some point. But for me, if I had to encapsulate the answer I received that was a powerful, strong, prolonged. Answer of some of the most spiritual experiences I’ve ever had that lasted about a week. The first half of it was teaching me profoundly that homosexuality is not of God in terms of, um, a part of the eternal gospel that, you know, like, like for me, homosexuality is a sin. uh sorry, but wash my mouth out with soap. I hate, I hate going into this because it’s just not something we talk about, right? And the second half of the week, so so I would describe it as homosexuality is not of God, but homosexual people absolutely are of God. And the second half of the week I had. More powerful spiritual manifestations, including from my perspective, seeing people step forward and saying, here am I send me. And um being willing to. Um, bring this. Um, really beautiful, um, experience to the earth for the benefit of all of us, because God needed people to help us learn more, namely, in my experience, namely charity, and that that are Homosexual brothers and sisters and are here in service to us to help us learn that and again I know there’s so much wrong with everything I just said and every way I just said it and you know I think it’s important to our story though because it’s part of how we’re navigating right because. We do still like I think. We could all wish that each other was different. I could wish that my daughters weren’t gay and you guys could wish that your mom weren’t. Mormon, I don’t know what we would say, you know, we’re, um, homophobic. I mean, I, I don’t know the right word. You could wish that I weren’t, didn’t believe as I do, right? But that doesn’t do any of us any good, and the priority is the relationship. I is that fair to say? And with the caveat that we’re all still learning, you know, so I’m sorry I threw those things in there because I don’t want to offend anyone, but I think that I know a lot of people who, I guess, I guess one thing that makes me feel a little bit um. I don’t know what the word I’m looking for, like my views haven’t really changed from the spiritual answers I had before I knew gay children. To now, after knowing I have gay children, I still have the same perspective. I still thought the same general way, although I’ve had a lot of guidance and specifics that have changed some of my perspectives. That makes sense. Anyway, sorry, I, uh, but that’s why I thought it was useful to talk about because I’m, I’m not just a mom that’s like. Go mama dragons necessarily, right? Like we’re still navigating this altogether, prioritizing their relationships. Is that fair to say? And, and so my feeling has been forever like we don’t need to be at war. There’s no reason to be at war, but I feel like, well, so with Elder Hollins talk, that’s what I was saying. I first read the reactions to it with everyone saying he said to a muskets at us and I was like, what? So I went to listen to the talk and compared to what people were saying it was my first reactions he did not say that, right? So that was my initial reaction was like, oh my word, because of how overstated it was.

[1:01:39] Emma Stone: But then we first listened to it and had kind of the opposite reaction. I mean, we immediately heard everything.

[1:01:48] Michelle: Sure, yeah, yeah, and it’s so because then. When I listened to it again after going, what he said, what, wait, they’re this mad and you know, because I’m not on, I’m, I, to me it’s like a battle between two sides that are both kind of making it worse. And that’s my perspective on it, you know, and we don’t have to share perspectives, right? We’re just all we wanted to just have a really raw, honest discussion where we can kind of talk about how we’re navigating it, but when I guess maybe I don’t know if I talked to you guys first. Maybe I did. And and and I was like he didn’t say what they said. I approached, but then you guys were like, yeah, but he said some pretty bad stuff was.

[1:02:35] Emma Stone: I think that’s pretty OK with more anger. Well,

[1:02:40] Michelle: I don’t think I was. I think I was,

[1:02:42] Emma Stone: yeah,

[1:02:43] Michelle: you guys were pretty heated.

[1:02:44] Kate Stone: I don’t think you at all,

[1:02:46] Michelle: no. I think they were just like, mom, he, you know, and I went back and listened. It’s hard to see how I still miss it. You know what I mean, even being your mom, I still sometimes don’t get it and. Um, I went back and listened again and realized, like from the very beginning and, and I love Elder Holland, you know, but from the very beginning. He read a letter from someone that was upset at what was happening at BYU. And that was who he sort of. Um, said we should feel bad for. I was like the way he framed it from the beginning and I had, I will say I was. Really um unhappy from the beginning where he said that the valedictorian, what did he say commandeer like I was not like like I was I mean I was upset when I first listened to it, I wasn’t happy, but I was like, but it’s not what they said, he said, which is still true, you know, there was a lot of overstatement to say yeah and I just feel like um and and I’ve never been one that’s comfortable at all with um. I, I feel like I’m uncomfortable saying this, but I feel like we almost. We use we weaponize suicide to say people kill themselves if you do this, and I’m not comfortable with that either, you know, I don’t,

[1:04:13] Emma Stone: I think there are better ways to at least say that and

[1:04:15] Michelle: I know that everyone’s doing their best. Yeah, so I’m not, you know, but for me that’s one thing that I might just, can we stop with people like like let’s just have a conversation and let’s look at the pain threshold. We have people here going through what my daughters have gone through and sometimes in Less understanding, less open, supportive families, right? Getting to like, like the level of struggle there compared to the level of struggle of a donor who doesn’t like what is being taught. Like, sure, there’s a, there’s a, there’s some hard things to deal with, but really where should our compassion be directed? And where should our understanding be directed? And we throw this really awesome valedictorian of BYU. Who got his speech approved, who spoke positively about everything. We threw him under the bus, like it just, yeah, like, like when I came back and then, and then he never said aim your muskets at gay people. I still will say that, but I get that he even brought up muskets when, like, like the uh the impression I had of having like javelins. Aimed at our throats. Like, I get it, you know, I got it at least. And it just is and I know, I know everyone’s trying, but it was pretty hard. It’s been pretty hard. Yeah,

[1:05:34] Emma Stone: well, another thing that I think hit us, um, was just, well, again, who his compassion was for. Um, he talked about how Much they cried. I forgot who were struggling with the leaders who were having to make these decisions as opposed to the people who are being affected by the decision. Well, I will say I hadn’t been

[1:06:03] Michelle: as of that might have been Kate or it was it was both of you that were like. I’m sorry, you’ve spent hours crying like like like like the the the quantity of hours spent crying.

[1:06:19] Emma Stone: I felt like just uh like a slap in the face. Yeah, all of the time that we spent, it’s like wishing to be different, wishing to even just be accepted,

[1:06:31] Michelle: crying to be alive. I mean,

[1:06:33] Kate Stone: yeah, yeah. Well, it’s like. That might be hard for you, yes, but that’s a weight that you can put down. We have to carry that all the time, um,

[1:06:42] Michelle: worried about being not accepted in your family and your community and your friend group and your because when you guys did finally come out, um. You lost some friends. Sorry. There were some people who maybe with the encouragement of parents, there were, there were people at your school, there were adults at your school who didn’t want you there anymore. Administrators and. I mean, they couldn’t come out and say that,

[1:07:12] Emma Stone: but no, but it was, it was fairly obvious communicated to several of them come out and say it, but they kind of came out like I don’t want to sound paranoid. It was pretty overt. So

[1:07:23] Michelle: there were some friends that wouldn’t be at places that you guys were if they could help it and stop talking to you.

[1:07:30] Emma Stone: And even one of our best friends now, um. She talked about how, um, well, I don’t want to go into specifics, but she had already been made aware before we even started hanging out of that that we were. Oh,

[1:07:45] Michelle: those are the gay girls, be careful. Yeah, don’t hang out with them. Yeah, so it’s tough even in 2018, 20 did you graduate 2019

[1:07:55] Emma Stone: that is another important thing to know. I’m not trying to get all political or anything, but um I know that it’s not. The same all the time. We are not gonna get lynched for being gay. We’re not, you know, but um it’s far more under the surface and a a lot of things that straight people don’t see, we still kind of have to deal with in our community and even just that can. Cause a lot of anxiety towards anybody, especially if they’re in the church, especially if they’re in this environment, um, and that I think is the really difficult part of not even knowing who we can trust with this information with our experiences.

[1:08:42] Michelle: Kate, do you wanna share your experience at A theater going to an outside

[1:08:48] Emma Stone: yeah because that is kind of the more

[1:08:52] Michelle: I do want to paint this through the frame that I that I wanted to frame it in, but you go ahead and share the experience.

[1:09:00] Kate Stone: Um, so I was with my girlfriend at the time and we had gone to um a show at the at an outdoor theater, um, and

[1:09:11] Michelle: they did handle it well,

[1:09:11] Kate Stone: the theater, but Um, while we were there, we were also with our my cousin, um, who was friends with both of us and um. We were by no means being over the top with PBA. We were cuddling

[1:09:31] Michelle: like you do like every

[1:09:31] Kate Stone: other straight couple there, um,

[1:09:35] Michelle: every, not every

[1:09:36] Kate Stone: other my bad and uh. Um, sitting, I think a little behind us was a woman who, um, I think after intermission or right before intermission came down and uh sat right next to my girlfriend, um,

[1:09:56] Michelle: almost on top of her she was a large woman,

[1:09:57] Kate Stone: yes,

[1:09:58] Michelle: and,

[1:09:58] Kate Stone: um, she. I was talking to my cousin at the time so I could get things inaccurate, but I think she said something like, oh, I just wanted to come down and watch both shows, um. Obviously meaning uh. She disapproved of the show we were putting on.

[1:10:16] Michelle: Didn’t she say something about her, she had,

[1:10:22] Kate Stone: um, and I think shortly after that

[1:10:27] Michelle: and to clarify there was no there was an arm

[1:10:29] Kate Stone: around, yeah, I mean maybe once or twice, but it was no pes yeah, it was nothing. Yeah, um. I think they said her daughter and I think daughter’s friend who had been sitting kind of next to us, um, a few feet away, um. They her daughter got up and started arguing with her, I think um yeah, and but even then her daughter said, I don’t agree with it either, but they have a right to exist, um, which I appreciate being stood up for. Yeah, unfortunately, that’s kind of the way that you were stood up for um and Eventually, I, they, I

[1:11:17] Michelle: think there was a physical assault.

[1:11:19] Kate Stone: Well, the mom left, um, and so at intermission, my girl, we were both, you know, stunned for. a while so

[1:11:30] Michelle: to put it in context, they’re just there on the grass and minding their own business and all of a sudden this woman comes and sits right on top of them and starts out actively criticizing and mocking and drawing attention to them. People were looking,

[1:11:44] Kate Stone: um, and then they had started, they both stood up and were kind of yelling, um, during the show. Um, so at intermission, um, my girlfriend decided that to cheer us up she’d go get some. Snacks, um, and while she was, she had worked there, so she knew some of the employees and the um manager there, um, so. Um, while she was over there, I don’t remember every specific, but the woman was there complaining to the manager. So how dare you sexuals, and then my girlfriend explained to the manager what had happened, um. And so the woman ended up getting, uh, I think banned from the theater and while she was being asked to leave, she smacked um my girlfriend on the back quite hard a few times and said great job look what you did or something along those lines.

[1:12:50] Michelle: Um, so you were accosted and actually physically assaulted.

[1:12:54] Kate Stone: I was but

[1:12:56] Michelle: but your girlfriend was physically assaulted and Like that happened in 2019 in the world, right? And and the the thing that I want because Kate was a bit of a mess, obviously, right? And um the thing that I thought was useful to draw attention to, not to minimize at all, but to Help re-establish a feeling of safety and ability to exist, right, was the fact that this was the only time that had happened and that um Kate and her girlfriend weren’t asked to leave or kicked out of the theater, the woman was. So. So you are protected and it was, it was universally seen who the who the bad one was, right? And that was the positive that I, I thought we could draw was that, you know, like, not, not too many decades ago, however, you guys would have been the ones kicked out, right? Like things are improving but way too slowly, right? Because a woman still felt, hopefully she learns to not do that again.

[1:14:06] Emma Stone: Yeah, I mean, I kind of get that impression she probably would have felt pretty justified and like

[1:14:13] Michelle: the victim in that situation and I think, I think that’s the hard thing is that my guess is she’s a member of the church. I mean, I mean, we’re in Utah County, like it’s a safe, right? And There haven’t been teachings as much on how to treat people. I, I think we’re doing, I mean, people will point to that there have been some, but she felt justified in behaving that way as a member of the church and, and,

[1:14:39] Emma Stone: and so. Justified unfollowing us on Instagram and things, which is not by any means the same thing, but it still kind of points to how we are still looked at by at least some people who are more on that side of the church.

[1:14:56] Michelle: So, OK, I want to ask a couple, so this is all really important to talk about. I hope that people are finding this valuable, um. I want to ask, uh, well, I don’t want to move into this yet because this we need to let this energy of this experience. There have been some hard things, you know, and I think that it shapes, like we can minimize that, you know, but I think it shapes your ability to walk around holding hands to like, like it’s on your mind, right? And not, I think that experience is important because it sort of brings to the surface what’s always an undercurrent. Is that, is that a safe way to say it? Like, even though people don’t respond that way. There’s an undercurrent. So can I ask you guys a question just for all of our, all of our benefit? What is, what is a good way people can respond? Because sometimes I’m out I want to like make people feel safe, but I know being like Gay people is not the way to do that. I, you know, I’m kidding, but like, but like just just the same thing we talked about just smiling at strangers. Yeah, I think honestly and smiling. Yeah,

[1:16:05] Emma Stone: yeah, I think so. I think that’s a good if someone did that to me, I would at least know that. Even whether or not they personally agree with it, I don’t really have business knowing as long as I understand that I’m safe being who I am in that environment.

[1:16:23] Michelle: Um, OK. So, so let me, one thing that I’ve had people voice to me as I’ve kind of now maybe, maybe we’ll post under here some of the things we’ve written, some of the posts that have gotten a lot of, you know, so that people can read a little bit of our journey. Um, one thing people have said to me is their concern about condoning. If I’m kind and accepting, am I condoning? And I’ll share my thoughts on that after. I want to know your thoughts on that. First of all, I know it’s a horrible thing to hear that people are worried about.

[1:16:58] Kate Stone: Yeah, um. I definitely I think it’s funny, um. That that’s a Concern, yeah, but um. It is kind of the thing where it’s like. We are gay. There was no choice in the matter. Um, it was either

[1:17:18] Michelle: too much testosterone in my uterus.

[1:17:21] Kate Stone: Yeah, sorry, no, it’s OK. It was like either accept it or be miserable. And so it’s like. Whether or not you. Except that, um, it’s kind of irrelevant because my thoughts, my thought has always kind of been, or at least. Recently has been um. You know, either people will. Except me for who I am and love me still, or I maybe don’t need them in my life that much, which um.

[1:17:55] Michelle: Can I just, can I just say though, like I know that that’s coming from a place of peace. That’s a horrible thing to have to

[1:18:00] Kate Stone: that is a horrible thing I don’t want it um. But I do feel like if you love me, you’ll at least want to help instead of hurt. So yeah, yeah, because. What you believe you can believe on your own time, I

[1:18:18] Michelle: guess you can believe it all the time.

[1:18:20] Emma Stone: You can believe it all the time. Whether you say it to me or not isn’t really going to change how I feel and it’s probably not even gonna change my opinion. And

[1:18:30] Michelle: so it is gonna change how you feel about them,

[1:18:32] Emma Stone: yeah, yeah, and that’s unfortunately. Sometimes we can talk about it and we can maybe come to a middle ground of some kind and we can stay in each other’s lives, but I would rather not have to think about that.

[1:18:44] Michelle: Can I make a comparison? Some people might not find truth in it and I can clarify, but. If there’s someone at the store whose clothes don’t match at all. Is it your responsibility to let them know that their style is atrocious? Is it your responsible to let someone know they’re having a terrible day, you know what I mean? And I know we can say, well, that’s not a moral thing. Well, for some people it is, but I mean, you know, like, like I can’t find any situation. Where it is valuable to. To vomit your disapproval on somebody,

[1:19:20] Kate Stone: yeah, yeah, right? I mean, yeah, I think that especially in this case where it. Being in a gay relationship, maybe you feel it affects our salvation or whatever it may be, but I, but the fact of the matter is we’re making that choice and we’re not harming anyone else, um.

[1:19:42] Michelle: What about, what about children’s people’s children seeing you?

[1:19:49] Kate Stone: I want to finish your disapprove or active disapproval, um, does a lot of harm, um. A lot of harm. Um,

[1:19:59] Michelle: can I share a thought? Can I answer my own question? I want to share a couple of experiences I’ve had that have helped me because even after I had these answers about homosexuality, I had, which They’re my answers, right? You know, I mean, I do feel like there’s truth in them, that, that, you know, at some point maybe I can share, but, but they’re mine, you know. But, um, I had been, after I had these experiences when you guys were still quite young, younger, you know, I was, I had a group of friends together and I was sharing, sharing my thoughts with them and um And afterward, yeah, we’re still going, we’re good. Afterward, um, I was clearing up the dishes and I was just kind of thinking to myself cause all of these conversations had come about, what about our children? How do we protect our children, you know, I have so many things I want to share because another thing I had been thinking was like, OK, like I had been thinking this a lot, so I’m gonna say it in case there are still people thinking it like. Is there something that these people did that they got into their system, some perversion they got into that I can protect my children from, or is there something the parents did that I can even like giving them milk or meat with too many hormones in it? Is there something I can avoid doing and You know, I, I would just had a clear impression of my scriptures and did and turned immediately to who did sin, this man or his parents that he was born blind. And the savior said neither, but that the works of God may be manifest in him. I was led right to that, and that was exactly the question that I was asking, right? And um that was one experience I had. And then after talking to my friends and I was cleaning up and I was sitting thinking cause I had this like. Just this strong desire to love people, to like aggressively find a way to aggressively but to actively love people who are different, who are, you know, struggling, and this was back during Prop 8 when it was hard, right? because it’s easy now, but when it was like, like acutely more difficult, there was, you know, a lot of work has been done since then and um and my thought was I Can I have them in my home? Well, I don’t want them in my home around my children, but how can I love them and you know, I don’t, I don’t want them, I wouldn’t want that example for my children and it was the first time in my life I ever experienced feeling. Almost slapped in the face by the Lord. I know you guys have heard me tell this story, but it was like it wasn’t a painful, but it was just this like sudden instant powerful rebuke, I guess, like this powerful getting my attention. And the words were, it is not their example of homosexuality that is um that is dangerous for your children. It is your lack it is your example of lack of charity that is dangerous for your children, and that floored me, and I knew immediately that it was exactly true that. I was the one that could influence my children and me teaching my children that there were things that we had to keep away from us, cause it was so bad that that’s what would hurt my children. That hit me so profoundly and I’ve had a lot of experiences like that that have helped me navigate in ways way better than than. Fault, you know, fault filled me could like, and so that was one experience I had that I just wanted to say about what about our children? Like, it is our example of charity that the Lord is really trying to get us to wake up to, right? And, and we are in a difficult world that’s filled with sin and everything, but I would say that when there’s a gay couple. The thing that your children will learn is how you interact with them, not what they’re doing, right? That’s really if, if, if I love the story that um Tom Christopherson shares that his mother told all of their siblings about coming to a family, letting him come to a family reunion with his boyfriend, I think at the time said, what your children will learn from their uncle Tom is that there is nothing that they can do that will take them outside of the love of this family. And that is a beautiful and profound lesson. And I think that that’s, if we want to teach our children faith in Jesus Christ, then we teach them to trust that there’s nothing so scary that it’s too big for Jesus, right? We teach them by our example of love. Just like I said, love and obedience cannot be separated. You can’t have one without the other. If you take obedience without love, you have self-righteousness and. Pride and judgment, right? If you take love without obedience, you have, like, I don’t know, something else too, but they both need to go together. I know that I had an answer for that, but it’s failing me, you know. We need both. They both belong together, right? And so, um, I guess, I guess if I love my children, I’ll just let them have candy all the time, right? It’s like we want what’s best for people, and those both have to go together. And so, um, so I wanted to share that

[1:25:07] Emma Stone: story. I just say from like a more secular standpoint, um, just again, I didn’t even know what being gay meant, um, for most of my formative years, I didn’t have any concept for what that was and that didn’t keep me from being gay.

[1:25:27] Michelle: It also didn’t serve you well.

[1:25:28] Emma Stone: It didn’t serve me well at all, um, and this is something that I’ve said before with um. Gay people being more, uh, having more exposure and having more representation is that, yeah, um, at least in my experience and from where I’ve been, I think that that will affect, um, children who are struggling with these same things. Way more positively than it will affect straight children negatively. I don’t think that it, uh, I mean, it might bring up some questions that you can answer in whatever way you see fit and whatever your belief system is, but I don’t think that it will. Damage your children, um, and I think it will help people who really need it. I, um, and I think that there’s. When you’re taught so long that like something is bad and something is wrong, I think with, you know, homosexuality in general, I think it. So much of it is oversexualized, um, in people’s minds and so any example they see of it immediately is inappropriate for children because they see it as a purely sexual thing where for me it’s like, yeah, if you would be uncomfortable with your children seeing a straight couple doing this, by all means you should be uncomfortable with a gay couple doing it. Um, but if it’s something that Would be, would be OK if it was a straight couple and not a gay couple, maybe reexamine that. And I’m not going to say that anyone’s feelings or beliefs on that are wrong, but I think that that is something where you might need to examine it and see where your basis for that feeling is coming from. Yeah because kids won’t see it in a sexual way,

[1:27:20] Michelle: um, they don’t

[1:27:20] Emma Stone: unless we train them to and unless, um. So, yeah,

[1:27:24] Michelle: so I have a couple of things I want to bring up, but first, can I bring up one of the things that we recently had kind of a hard talk about? So the Kiss, what’s the show called? Lightyear. So the, the Buzz Lightyear movie. OK, I was not there talk over the top but chime in. So we had kind of a conversation about, so there’s a gay kiss in that is that I haven’t seen the movie.

[1:27:49] Emma Stone: There’s a lesbian it’s like a very short in the background lesbian, yeah, um, I think they’re they’re like celebrating their anniversary or something, so it is,

[1:27:58] Michelle: but in the context of in a relationship, so it’s yeah, OK, and it’s a peck. And so, and then this is after some hints toward things at Frozen, some hints like movies have kind of, there are some other

[1:28:11] Emma Stone: where no one’s really been satisfied, I don’t think. I don’t think people who are against homosexuality have been satisfied, but I also don’t think gay people have been happy with it.

[1:28:19] Michelle: So we had a conversation because I was able to Feel the um perspective of parents feeling like they’re being undermined or like they’re trying to bypass the parent to go straight to the child, which I confess does make me feel a little bit uncomfortable in general as a mom who’s who I’m, I’m, I am different than I was, but putting myself back into being a young mom with how protective I was. That concerns me and your perspective was much more about

[1:28:59] Emma Stone: representation for people who haven’t had it before

[1:29:02] Michelle: and that’s where you made the point to me that the good we can potentially do for young gay is so much greater than any harm that could be done to young children. And, and so it was a good conversation because I think we realized there’s no perfect. Yeah, there’s no perfect way to do this.

[1:29:24] Kate Stone: Uh, Disney and most movie studios are not inherently religious, uh, so it’s, and the world has moved much more in that direction. If like VeggieTales or something had put a gay kiss in, yeah, that would be more like, no, these are Christians watching these or religious people generally. So yeah, I’d see a much bigger problem with something like that. Whereas with, you know, these more Or less religious organizations who. They are obviously trying to cater to people. um, just they want as much money as they can get. So right,

[1:30:02] Michelle: right, they’re they’re immoral, amoral, whatever we want to call it like, like I don’t think anyone’s like go Disney, we love you with their morals. I

[1:30:10] Kate Stone: think they’re trying to cater to people. So I think generally. So the parental,

[1:30:17] Michelle: the parental guidance and I think that me now where I am because I have young children still, right? And um Oh, sorry, it’s been interesting for me to navigate my daughter in my house kissing her fiance right in front of my children like I’m not gonna lie and say I haven’t had to like. Work through that to some extent over the past couple of years. I know this might be hard for you to hear. OK, I, it’s hard to talk about these things, right? Like, but um. I guess I feel like what kind of Emma and I came to is that in a way, a movie like Lightyear can be a gift because you know in advance if you do, if you don’t, you know, whatever, but even if, even if it happens, it can give you a good opportunity to have a conversation just like if you’re if you’re if you’re out in public and your child sees someone in a wheelchair or someone with a Deformity, can I use that word? Is that a crush your word, a a a a difference in their body some way that’s visible, right? Like, like I don’t know all the PC stuff, but, but, um. How do you want your child to respond, right? And what a beautiful opportunity to like when you had your answer to teach your children, God loves everyone and everyone is made differently and everyone has different paths and everyone has different things because the fact is, I know it’s so ironic to me that people use the God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance about homosexuality. When I’m like, wait, that totally disproves what God is saying is nothing’s OK. None of you passed the test. None of you all deserve to be here, right? In a way it’s saying the exact opposite that like, isn’t it beautiful to know that Jesus loves all of us and that all of us can fit in the love of Jesus Christ and all he asks us to do is love one another. And I think in a way it’s a beautiful opportunity that we can get those, like, I’m not offended when someone on a wheelchair is on a TV show because I can teach my children about how we treat people that are different than us and how we can love them, right? And, and we don’t, I would say that no like Jesus, his treatment of the woman taken in adultery, who we can all agree with, that was sinful, right? Like. But he didn’t meet her with judgment of her sins. He met her with compassion and and embrace and protection. He was the one saying, excuse me, no, you throw rocks at her, you throw rocks at me, right? And that’s how we can treat one another. We don’t have to even get into, like, oh, that person says, says bad words. Oh, that person’s drinking coffee. I have to let them know that I disapprove. Like what would we ever do that, right? Or can we just smile at someone? Who is different than we are, even who even who has different religious or moral beliefs than we might have, or who maybe would have had the same moral beliefs we had had if they hadn’t been given a completely different life experience that expanded them in ways, right? So, um, and I want to also say this, um. I want to say how thankful I am sorry, but you two haven’t given me an ultimatum. Because I can’t think how painful it would be if I said my way or the highway. You either live my standards or you are not welcome in this family. But I know that the opposite happens too where it’s if you’re in the church, you can’t be in my life. Right? And I think I get that. I get it because in a way, well, I want to know how does it feel to you guys that I’m still active and in the church that can’t be easy for you.

[1:34:15] Emma Stone: Um, well.

[1:34:18] Michelle: And then your siblings are

[1:34:19] Emma Stone: for a few years, it was very tense for me. Um, And Yeah, I, I just didn’t. Understand, um, well, that’s not true. I did understand why you wanted to stay, I understood. Like the, the prose that you had, but I guess it did feel a little bit alienating to understand that you had um pros and, and you saw some advantages to staying in the church that I didn’t feel like I had um. Like he felt like it was a good community, a good place to be, to learn and to grow, and I felt like all that was there for me was stunting my growth and exclusion and enemies really like not, not overly and not on purpose, but that’s just how it, uh, the environment felt.

[1:35:14] Michelle: So in a way, the question of condoning, I’m by staying in the church, I’m condoning. Yeah,

[1:35:19] Emma Stone: yeah, yeah, but I, I have had a lot of. I did a lot of soul searching. I’ve I’ve been like kind of working through that for a long time. And what I’m at at this point, and this isn’t gonna be perfect because I’ve never like. You know, said it or thought it even like consciously, but um. Basically, uh, I mean, I think. Everybody learns their own things in their own time and just like. Maybe you going up to a gay person and telling them that they shouldn’t be gay and here’s why and and uh either yelling at them or being belligerent wouldn’t help. It wouldn’t change their opinion and it would just make them feel worse about you honestly.

[1:36:13] Michelle: And I think this because you’re claiming to represent God,

[1:36:15] Emma Stone: and I think the same is true and I believe in God. I don’t know that I necessarily believe in a Christian God or a Mormon God. Um, but I still believe that I have a duty to represent my beliefs and um my belief. Above all else at this point is love and kindness, and I believe that I owe that same, um. I, I owe you that same grace, um. That No matter what you do, I know that I wouldn’t be able to change your opinion. Um, so even if it does, it’s in your own time, and if not, the best I can do is be here and show you an example of someone who is different and who still loves you for our similarities and our differences.

[1:37:11] Michelle: I have to hug you. Do you have anything you want to say on that?

[1:37:17] Kate Stone: Yeah, just I mean, the quickest way to alienate someone is to be hostile towards them and um. It Who am I to expect people to accept me and my beliefs if I am completely unwilling to accept others for their beliefs.

[1:37:39] Michelle: That was so well said it’s both of you. That was. I want to clarify one thing that um I am in the church because I’ve had, because the God, the Lord has told me to be in the church, right? Like, like I know you were saying I I found value in it and I, and I have said that, you know, but I am, I feel like this is where God wants me to be, right? And, and so I. Like my top priority is serving God, doing what I feel like God tells me to do, and I would hate to face the choice between God and my daughter or my daughters, right? Like, so that’s. Yeah I appreciate that, you know, I feel like God has a use for me in this church, and then I have been thankful to be. To be told to stay, but I definitely feel like, hey, I’m going to church, you know, like sometimes when you guys are here visiting, I’ll stay home with you instead of going to church because Yeah, navigating it, right? It is still hard. I don’t wanna like I don’t want to miss out on my time with you because I’m going to church.

[1:38:46] Emma Stone: Yeah, well, and it still brings up feelings with our other siblings who are still in the church and who have a wide array of different beliefs and different levels of

[1:38:58] Michelle: to engage in different ways,

[1:39:00] Kate Stone: it still brings up a lot of feeling and I think, I think it’s very valuable. I, I think this needs to be said is that not everything has to be dealt with right away. Um it’s very easy for things to get very especially. A lot of the members of our family have different political, religious

[1:39:18] Michelle: intense. Yes,

[1:39:21] Kate Stone: we’re all talkers so and we like having deep conversations about pretty much every con every topic, and I think it’s important that every topic should be able to be talked about. That being said, Nothing needs to be talked about right away. Um, if you sometimes need to sit with things, figure out why this topic is so hurt maybe hurtful or makes you so Uncomfortable, emotional, um, and do that healing within yourself and be gentle but um be firm and reminding, um, whoever needs to be told that maybe you can’t have this conversation right now. That’s OK. So that I think that’s the best way to avoid feelings getting permanently hurt.

[1:40:07] Michelle: And we’ve had some good conversation about how to navigate this in our family because we do have some. Like I would say in general we’re a very conservative family, um, you know, we’re libertarian but very conservative, right? And, um, and so it’s interesting, engaging, right? Um, like, like some of my children loved the recent documentary What Is a Woman and some of my children hated it,

[1:40:34] Emma Stone: right?

[1:40:35] Michelle: And, and so it’s an interesting thing to talk about. I, I will say. If I can speak for what, what, what was your biggest um criticism of that movie,

[1:40:44] Kate Stone: um.

[1:40:45] Michelle: Do you remember what it

[1:40:46] Kate Stone: was? I felt strongly that um. As much as you can say, oh, I care about the children or we need better solutions for whatever trans people, whatever it is, I don’t think people are working towards. Helping trans people as much as um kind of. It was trying to disprove

[1:41:11] Michelle: what you told me was that it was lacking compassion,

[1:41:14] Kate Stone: it felt like there was

[1:41:16] Michelle: no very compassion for people struggling with gender dysphoria.

[1:41:20] Kate Stone: It was much more mockery and um. Yeah, it was it was painful to watch for me, so

[1:41:27] Michelle: yeah. And yep, and, and, and see, again, I watched the documentary and for the most part liked it until I heard that Kate had watched it and then I felt sick that Kate had watched it alone and then when I heard Kate’s critique, I was like, right on. That is very, you know, that is a that is a very valid critique of that, right? Like. And so, um, so there are a couple of things more that I think we need to talk about. I know that this is long split it into different, different videos, right? People can engage as much as they want to, but um. I, I wanna, there were some other things I want to talk to them maybe we’ll come back to, but I want to transition on to talking about transitioning. That’s good. I want to talking about gender dysphoria as much as you’re comfortable. Well, first, before we get there, just back on to the family topic, I think it is really good rules. Engagement, I guess that everyone needs to feel like their home is safe meaning, meaning the home you visit your parents’ home. I mean,

[1:42:36] Kate Stone: recently, um, and I have been dealing with dysphoria and I don’t know how much everyone knows or um knows about it or has talked about it, but, um, recently. Um, my brother, uh, we were all at home at once and uh my brother had brought up something about. Um, being trans and it is

[1:42:58] Michelle: a common topic

[1:42:59] Kate Stone: it is, yeah, um, and. had brought up a point that I, I think. I don’t know. Maybe I just don’t have an answer to, but it felt very like fight or flight, um, so I couldn’t even think about a good um answer to it, um.

[1:43:19] Michelle: And no,

[1:43:21] Kate Stone: he was not trying to attack me, so, and this was a brother that I’ve had tension with historically, but um, I think. Hopefully I was trying my best not to make him feel bad at all, so I just kind of. Excuse myself from the conversation and try to not, I mean. I felt myself getting more heated and more emotional, so I wanted to excuse myself from the conversation, and he did a very good job of realizing that I could not talk about that right now. And so I think that was handled well. I hope I didn’t make him feel bad, but I,

[1:43:59] Michelle: I thought

[1:44:00] Michelle Stone: it

[1:44:00] Michelle: was handled beautifully. I, I wanna say that sort of the rules of engagement, I would say in our family, you know, are that the relationship is the priority. The relationships are the priority. In that and and no one is required to say something they don’t believe for the sake of the relationship, right? And so we’re so, so we’re trying to navigate these challenging things and also we’re trying all to Take personal responsibility for what is triggering, I guess is the word for, for what causes defensiveness or what causes anger or what causes, you know, whatever it might be and so that we can all do the work to go, OK, why did that affect me so deeply, right? So that, and then also being able to just kind of raise the right white flag and saying, hey, I just can’t do this conversation right now. Like, not, you’re not allowed to say that or not how, you know, just kind of can we table this one for now, right, or either I’ll excuse myself or can we table this so we can all stay together in the moment. Is that, is that a fair way to say? And as far as I am right now, I feel really good about those rules of engagement. I haven’t found a better way yet, you know. And so we can, we can navigate because, you know, we got a big family and then everyone that gets married, that’s another member that comes into the family with, you know, I mean, so far everyone that’s in our family is, I mean, like, let’s keep up the good, like, like we got, we got awesome ones, you know, but it’s just going to keep being complicated, right? So we need these rules of engagement, right? And so I thought that also. The gender dysphoria element was another. Um, Potential upheaval that I hope we’re navigating decently well, right? And so, so these, this is something that I do have very strong feelings on. I’m very conservative in this issue. Yeah. Where I think that compassion is absolutely at the forefront. And we can’t let compassion trample truth because if we do it’s not compassion sort of response to that is that.

[1:46:24] Kate Stone: Yes, the truth is that I was born female.

[1:46:27] Michelle: I clarify that. I would like to say,

[1:46:29] Kate Stone: but the truth is also that I experience gender dysphoria. And what the best course of action is for that, I haven’t even figured out yet for myself. We’re trying to navigate, but um. Yeah, go ahead.

[1:46:44] Michelle: When I say

[1:46:45] Michelle Stone: truth,

[1:46:47] Michelle: it’s for me what that means is because we’re all female athletes. I’m really a um I can’t describe myself as a feminist because we just had this conversation that feminism often means women are just as good at being men as men are, and I, you know, I’m like. Womanhood needs to be elevated and valued far more, right? femininity or feminine endeavors, right? And so, um, so it’s hard, and then I also do really worry about children and right about, I think that if we lie to people, we don’t help people, right? And so as we talked about it. We were able to come to some like I think that because I struggled with a different kind of body dysphoria with, with like, like I, I guess wasn’t anorexic but definitely struggled with body dysphoria when I always thought I was fat and I know it’s different, but in some ways the feelings were similar. We were able to compare. To some extent,

[1:47:54] Kate Stone: yeah, I guess I, I, yeah.

[1:47:56] Michelle: Oh right,

[1:47:57] Kate Stone: I don’t know,

[1:47:58] Michelle: right, and so, so anyway, I guess I just um. I want to bring it up because I want people to understand the struggle and the pain that is very real and very much. I love how you said it’s the truth. Yeah, it’s the truth, right? And, um, and for me, the conversation is. Is it worth medicalizing or is it not? Cause I, for me, I can’t really use the word transition cause I don’t think that’s necessarily a possibility. I don’t think you can become. The opposite sex, but you can. You can express more that way with whiskers or a changed voice or right or in the opposite with, you know, you can express more that way and weighing out the costs of that to help to, you know, compared to the benefits to potential emotional well-being is a valid question to be asking. Am I expressing that.

[1:49:07] Kate Stone: I do know of a lot of. I, I don’t know if well, people who experience gender dysphoria, who for whatever reason choose not to medically transition. Um, and I think that’s a completely. Valid thing, um. And I, I don’t even know where I am on that yet, but, um,

[1:49:29] Michelle: so am I correct in this, am I, is my understanding correct that you have socially transitioned among your peer groups but not among your family? Like, yeah, like you have a different name and different pronouns, but you haven’t asked us to use them yet. Why is that? And these are all new questions where I really appreciate you being willing to talk about this.

[1:50:00] Kate Stone: Um, and it’s just a hard thing, and I think that um. I don’t want to ask you to compromise your beliefs and at the same time it is. It hurts more to ask for something and then for that not to be respected.

[1:50:22] Michelle: So can I ask you now?

[1:50:23] Kate Stone: Yeah.

[1:50:24] Michelle: Would it help you? If If you didn’t have to ask, would it help you if I ask Kate would, or I, I, I know you have different name, but I don’t know what it is. Would you like us to call you? The pronouns and the name that you feel more comfortable with right now in the rest of your life, or at least, OK, we don’t have to answer that right now in front of everyone, but I’m putting that offer on the table for you to think about, OK, because sometimes it’s hard to transition into a family because it can feel awkward. But I think that all of us love you enough to You know, to be willing to do what would help you the most in this unbelievable struggle you are having to deal with. Is that I hope We’ll decide if this is gonna go public or not. Every part of it, um, there was another,

[1:51:33] Michelle Stone: well, why did we do this without. That’s fine. We’ll find something.

[1:51:37] Michelle: OK, we’re back now with we shouldn’t have those from the beginning. OK. So Emma, how are you on this because I think you and Kate still have a lot of social circles in common.

[1:52:00] Emma Stone: So you just adjust to where you are right now. Yeah, yeah, and it has been a little bit confusing and a little bit. What to say when we’re around family, um, what to say when we’re like in the house, even like for me too, buddy it’s it’s weird, um, but yeah, I do use your preferred pronouns when we’re. Outside and

[1:52:18] Michelle: and um what about when the two of you are together? Does it just depend on the context

[1:52:22] Emma Stone: of where you are when we’re just the two of you yeah I I use um preferred pronouns.

[1:52:27] Michelle: OK, yeah, I didn’t realize, OK, this is all I’m learning about and I

[1:52:32] Emma Stone: think, well, I think that’s due to several factors. I’m not conservative. I wouldn’t describe myself as conservative and so in in that way I’m not. I’m also not sure exactly where I stand on all of this, but I know again that I feel like our relationship is at the forefront, um, and it should be, and I think that if. Um, Kate, trust me. With that, that, that I want to respect your wishes above anything else, and not even that, I, I don’t even believe that it’s wrong to do. So that’s OK, that’s where I’m at.

[1:53:14] Michelle: So, so I just, I, I want to share just a couple of experiences that have helped me move along and I Ah, like you guys, like I have to thank you because you’ve been such gifts to me to help me learn so much more. I don’t like thinking about who I would be and how I would still think if I didn’t have you guys. You’ve really, really blessed me to be a person that I’m much happier being, and I’m, I’m so thankful that I get to be your mom, you know. So, um, and, and. Like I want to just share a couple of experiences because when after you had that seminary experience, I felt the need to find community. So that was the first time I think I sent you to Rainbow Mutual, which I did with great trepidation, right? Like, am I gonna go send them to like all this anti-Mormon. Rip on the church, rip on your family, right, right, it’s been scary for me to as a conservative Mormon mom, right? I wanna, I wanna just give voice to that. And um, but I really, and, and dad now is totally supportive of you guys. I think, I think he tends to be less patient with where I am now, but at the time he was really not cool with me sending you either, right? And um. He started out. He was slower to move, but once he moved, he moved a lot faster, right? So, um, so anyway, you guys went and after a few times, Kate came home and had met somebody, and I remember the sparkle in her eyes when she was in probably 17 years old telling me. I met someone 16, yeah, and I. I felt like, hey, I know what the Lord has told me, but like now it’s go time like they’re not just gonna be like. Either celibate or in mixed orientation marriages like Kate wants to be or theoretically gay, right? It was like it’s real and that was so unsettling for me in that moment, right? And um but I was just like. OK, like I wanted to, like that was going on in my brain. I hope I didn’t show it. Like I was like she was just so happy and excited and and I had the most interesting experience because, well, she was, I was sitting on my bed and you were standing on the side of the bed talking to me about this girl that you had met. And I was like listening and OK God help, what do I do? What do I do? What do I do? What’s the right thing to do, you know, and like the desperate mom prayer, right? And I saw. The Lord’s hands just come down and. Pick Kate up and just the most complete peace washed over me with the words I’ve got her. And it was so beautiful to me because it gave me complete permission to just love my daughter and be happy for her joys and be thankful. And I guess the way I’ve explained it is like. We are on the straight narrow path, each of us, right? We’re doing our best to follow where God leads us, and I know for a fact that there were things over there on that straight and narrow gay path that leads that way that I would have never gotten if you hadn’t gone over there and gotten them for us and brought it back to us, right? Like, and so it was such a testimony to me that the Lord has you, that the Lord is big enough and um. And, and I, and then I, as you sat and talked to me, I see these things are hard to admit. Will you forgive me for? I kind of, as she sat there talking to me, my vision changed. It was like the scales fell off of my eyes and I. Stopped seeing Kate as kind of a broken straight girl who didn’t know how to flirt and who didn’t stand up straight and who didn’t. Do you know what I mean? Like, like, not that I’d but but like, like all of a sudden I didn’t see you as a straight girl who kind of needed help. I just saw you as this like. Perfect gay girl, like this perfect, like hot gay girl who like, you know, I don’t know how to explain like this perfect, totally desirable gay girl that I had never seen before that I was just like, oh my gosh, like she’s perfect. You get what I’m saying? Like it was such a strange experience for me, but it was completely given to me by God. And so that was one just like these are guys my profound experiences I would point to. The one is being slapped and told, I hate being slapped, but it really was, it was like that like it was like, oh sorry, sorry, what did I do, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s a good way to say it. And then this experience of having the Lord just like say I got it it was the most. Visceral feeling of, do you think I don’t love her every bit as much as you do, you know, and um, and then. Fast forward a few years and see I’m like I’ve had to learn it piece by piece by piece, but in a way, maybe that makes it, maybe that makes some people really hate me that I’m kind of slow cause I’m so conservative. I don’t know. But well, I will say I’m teachable. the

[1:58:56] Kate Stone: being willing to seek is much more important than I think OK, what you believe, right? And,

[1:59:06] Michelle: and I don’t, I mean, I know a lot of people that were like very much like homosexuality is wrong. Oh, I have a gay child. Oh, the church is wrong, you, you know, like, like I really care about. Knowing what God wants me to do, that’s just how I work, yeah, you know, and I’m not saying those moms and dads don’t, but this is my journey, you know. And so anyway, so fast forward a few years and Kate’s engaged. OK, we’ve been going so long that my phone was full and I told the whole story before we realized it wasn’t recording, except we’re gonna try and tell it again. What it, what was it you said? Tell it again with just as authentically. And also, we’re in a sauna, so this is what happens upstairs with no air conditioning of our recording. But, um, OK, so this is the another story that was very impactful in my life. Um, at my son’s wedding after the shutdowns at the end toward the end of COVID, um, my husband married them and then they were sealed the next day in the temple. And so after the wedding, Kate and her fiance came up to me and asked me if I would perform their wedding. And um. And I immediately felt completely overwhelmed because I felt so honored and I knew they were doing it sort of in our shared genuine feminism of like valuing the feminine and, um, and to honor me and um, and I was so honored and I was also kind of overwhelmed and scared cause performing a wedding is never something I thought I would do, but I was so honored and so thankful and. Of course, told them yes and um, and then came home and later that night. Real realized like the weight came on me of. I didn’t know if it was OK to participate in a gay wedding. I didn’t know it. I had already gotten the answers about that I can go and support them getting married and I like I have to get all of these answers and just the way I work is I have to I have to do what God wants me to do. That’s just the way I work and um. And I realized, and I know that this some people might just. Not, you know, some people might just hate me and I’m sorry if that’s how this comes across, you know, I just, I have to know what God wants me to do and I’ve had to learn bit by bit and be directed in our navigating this, and I also, this has been a difficult interview and conversation to have, cause these are things we don’t talk about. Like I don’t think I’ve I don’t talk about my feelings on homosexuality with you guys, right? Just, I want you guys to know that that it’s nothing here has to be said between us, right? Because none of it affects us or our relationship. We talked about being willing to have this conversation in case it would be beneficial for others, but I want you to know how hard it is for me to say these things. For my daughters. Because I love my girls and I love everything about my girls and I’m so thankful for who they are. And did it record the part where I was seeing how thankful I am to get to be your mom because of how it’s changed me. I hope that got recorded. Thanks. If not, I said something really great that you missed. OK. Um, but in any case, that realization that night about devastated me because I knew how vulnerable. My little girl and her fiance were and the thought of telling them I can’t perform your wedding. Was something I could not even consider. But I knew I had to do. What God wanted me to do cause I can’t do anything else. And so I took several days before I even could ask, could ask God. I just was kind of a mess about it. And then finally we’d already I’d already lost my two little girls and dealt with some chronic pain, and like I’d already learned everything God does is perfect and everything is OK. I, I knew, I, I mean, how many times do I have to learn these same lessons, right? So I just knew whatever God tells me to do is OK. And the worst outcome I could possibly think of was that God would tell me no, I can’t do it. And I would tell Kate and our relationship would be hurt, and my daughter would be hurt, and And I had to go there to make peace with that potential outcome, trusting God. Just like the worst outcome I could imagine with my little girl was losing her, right? I had to make peace with that outcome. I just know that’s how I have to work. So, once I could get to that place, then I could finally ask when I, cause I needed to be able to genuinely say, God, whatever you tell me to do, I will do, and I will trust you. So I was out walking. I’ve been walking pretty religiously these last couple years for my therapy, my sanity, and I was out walking and just talking to God and It just said God, I know how much you love Kate. I know you know how much I love Kate. And I need you to tell me what to do. And immediately we came what came to mind first was. The parable of the Lost sheep, the one, the, is that, am I saying it right? I’m a little flustered, the one on the 99. Lost sheep, which during, during the shutdown and during all of this had come to mean a very different thing to me that we’ll talk about, I’m sure in a different video, but just in brief, it became about the one who didn’t fit in, the one who was not accepted. It was the, the one who cannot or will not wear a mask in this massive lockdown. It was. About the gay girl in a Mormon family in the Mormon church. It was the one who is excluded. And, and that parable just came to mind so strongly to show me my daughter, which I already knew, but that parable came to mind, which gave me permission to be filled with love and compassion for my daughter as my main focus. And then it was almost just, it was as clear as two hands in the balance, like the scale in the balance and just this clear, this clarity of you have two laws. That are in conflict just like Eve did, right? And it just went like this, so profoundly the side that was filled with love, the commandment to love just went like, like it became. As heavy as in as eternity, just this love that it was the priority, and the Lord just like gave me again permission to err on the side of love with my whole heart and to know that even if there were conflicting commandments here in my mind, in my morality, right? That my greater commandment was to love. And um, and so I can’t even begin to explain the joy. The joy I experienced in knowing that I could serve both God and my daughter, right, right, and, and then the Lord just continually, I, I continue to ask with a full and open heart and a willingness to obey God no matter what. And God continues to teach me or give me permission and allow me to err on the side of love, which is I think exactly what the savior does for all of us. I hope that’s not hard for she’s a little calmer now because I already told the story once without it being recorded, but those stories for me have been profound and impactful and have changed who I am really in. In ways like, like I truly don’t think I could have gained whatever level of compassion and understanding and charity that I have gained if I hadn’t been for, you know, my other little daughters too, um, but also these two daughters, you too. And so I can honestly say with my whole heart. That if I could change it, so my daughters were straight and had always been straight. I wouldn’t do it. First of all, I wouldn’t say I know better than God, but second of all, even in my own wisdom now, I wouldn’t change who you are. And I’m profoundly thankful for the opportunity to be your mom. So is there anything? You wanna wrap up with. You have to say something or I’ll feel like I did all the talking.

[2:08:37] Emma Stone: I think in summary, not trying to speak for everyone, but. Um, I think that no matter what you believe, um, we’re not necessarily trying to change opinions or like. Yeah, have any like groundbreaking effect. What we want is for you to. Just kind of reexamine. Um, How you love people, I think is a

[2:09:11] Michelle: good what commandment you prioritize,

[2:09:13] Kate Stone: yeah. And um, I just want to restate that I think erring on the side of love, um. Is one of the most important things um that we can do and. In my experience, um. No opinions are ever changed, um. With argument, I think, um, I. Uh, it’s so much easier to push people away than to um be patient enough to uh. You know, let them come to their own conclusions, but that is, I think one of the more important things um in life.

[2:09:54] Michelle: I love that. Can I, I wanna say, like we are having this difficult conversation, and I think it’s a testimony to how strong our relationship is that we’re able to do it, right? And, um, and even though I’ve had to be taught these things bit by bit by the Lord. I don’t, I hope I haven’t made you guys terribly aware. Like I don’t think, well, like, do you feel like I’ve had to come back and repent to you guys very much? Do you know what I’m saying?

[2:10:25] Kate Stone: Not very much, but I don’t even think, I think. The willingness to do that and to seek is so much more important than any opinion they’ve had. Um, at any point in my, in my view, I don’t, um,

[2:10:41] Michelle: so you guys don’t harbor hurt or bad feelings. I mean, I mean, I’m your mom, of course you have everyone hates their mom at times.

[2:10:51] Emma Stone: Sometimes it can be hard to hear those things and to kind of remember back, but I think. At least from my perspective, it actually adds. Depth of character and depth of your convictions. Now, having had to ask the questions, um, it’s a much deeper. Love, I guess, um, at least that’s how it feels, um, to know that. To know that you would. Do whatever you felt was true and to land on this side of it, um. Actually. I think adds to our relationship.

[2:11:37] Michelle: I love that, I and I hope. I hope that also cuz I know that we’re all defining our relationship with God and our idea of who and what God is. But maybe to some extent, my relationship with God and my experiences with God. Helps you guys not feel pushed away from God. Like if I were saying God doesn’t approve of you as opposed to saying God told me that. God fixed. God helped me see better, right? Or God, like, like, I think, I guess I just think that God, the thing that the scripture that keeps coming to mind as you were wrapping up was all things must fail, but charity never faileth and how like this is a whole new level of the truthfulness

[2:12:27] Kate Stone: of that. I think, I mean. Something that’s occurred to me a few times is that both, you know, Christianity just generally and kind of the LGBT community are preaching tolerance and love, um, but I don’t think either practices it particularly well, um, because it is still that intolerance and hatred of people who could possibly think differently, um. And so actually hearing where you, I think the truth is important and the fact that that is your true story um is important and I think that’s worth being shared.

[2:13:10] Michelle: So what we’re talking about is the ability to have a relationship where we can all be authentic, where we can all show up as our authentic selves knowing that we can be. Unders met with understanding and love and accept it

[2:13:28] Kate Stone: and I’d so much rather have these things out in the open and not have the passive aggressiveness or the doubt of how does this person see me or, you know, do they have some kind of problem with me? I’d rather just talk about it again with the caveat that not everything is talked about at once, but I do think that every conversation is worth having at some point.

[2:13:52] Michelle: OK, this was awesome. I’m so glad we did this. I hope you guys find this worth your what, 3 hours or

[2:13:59] Michelle Stone: 4 hours.

[2:14:01] Michelle: But anyway, we are I’m thankful that you guys were willing to sit down and talk and share, and I hope that there was value here. So we, we laughed that this is 132 problems and this could be episode such and such and such as that because these are two of the problems. That’s not the case at all, you guys are. Some of my most profound blessings, so thank you, and I love you too, we’ll see you guys later.