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I am excited to welcome Sharon Collier to the podcast to discuss this important topic and share her first hand experience of how the doctrine of polygamy affects LDS widows today.
Links
Sharon’s website: Dating. Again. – Loving Again
Sharon’s podcast: The datetoyourpotential Podcast
LDS Widows and Widowers facebook group (2) LDS Widows & Widowers
Elder Oaks talk Trust in the Lord
Transcript
[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon Polygamy, where we explore the scriptural and theological case for plural marriage. As those who listen to this podcast know, I always recommend listening to the previous episodes in order. The reason I do that is because those just begin. to engage with this topic will most likely have a lot of questions. And I’m guessing most if not all of those questions will have been addressed in previous episodes. This is episode 30, and I’m really excited to cover a topic that’s been on my mind quite a bit. Many people ask why I’m even paying attention to this topic since it doesn’t affect us today without realizing some of the ways that it really does affect us today for some people in painful and profound ways. So my name is Michelle Stone, and this is episode 30, where we are going to talk about polygamy and widowhood. I want to thank my guest today, Sharon Collier, and I hope that you enjoy our discussion. OK, I am so excited to be here with my new friend, Sharon. Sharon, thank you so much for agreeing to do this.
[01:22] Sharon Collier: Oh, thank you for having me.
[01:23] Michelle: Yes, this is really, really exciting to me that we were able to put this together. So as a quick introduction, Sharon is a certified life and relationship coach. She has a podcast she does that I’ve only been able to listen to one episode, but it was great. It’s called Date to Your Potential podcast. It’s specifically for LDS singles. I’ll put the links below. And then, um, her website is loving Again coach. Is that lovingagaincoach.com? And you can contact her at lovinggaincoach@gmail.com. So, um, Sharon has been a widow for 15 years. I believe you were widowed at age 37, right? And so that is specifically why I wanted to talk to her, or what I wanted to talk to her about today, because I have several friends who are widows in um members of the Church of Jesus Christ who have been widowed, and People don’t seem they they seem to in some ways be a forgotten group, and it’s not very, people aren’t very aware of how polygamy affects many people today, but I would say maybe more than any other group, LDS widows are affected by the idea, the doctrine of polygamy, that is still present even though polygamy is in our past. The theology is still very present. It’s very present in our, in our, um, understanding. I, I, I, I’m hesitant to call it a doctrine because I think it’s not a doctrine, but it’s very present in our church experience today. Shall I say that?
[02:59] Sharon Collier: So,
[03:00] Michelle: um, did I miss anything in your introduction? That you want to know.
[03:04] Sharon Collier: You got it. Thank you. OK,
[03:06] Michelle: excellent. So I had been speaking to a couple of other, I have, um, I actually do have quite a few friends who are widows, and um some of them are not in the dating pool, some of them are older and not interested in getting married again, but I also have several friends who are younger and either have remarried or have not, but have been. Like I had a lot of people who had talked to me about these problems that widows experience in the LDS church, specifically trying to date again and trying to remarry. And so, um, I had another friend who had Um, wanted to come on, but then she heard Sharon’s most recent podcast episode, or, or one of her podcast episodes, and she said, you have to talk to Sharon. So I was able to get a hold of Sharon. She put us together and I’m so, I’m so grateful that this worked out. So Um, specifically, so Sharon, I guess, I guess, can we start by saying I, I, it sounds to me like you have been dating, right? Oh yeah, you know, and you have not remarried, you’re still single, OK. So, are, um, are there any specific things that stand out to you that you want to share firsthand experiences? Would you say that your experience dating as an LDS widow has been more difficult than as an LDS single, either divorced or never married?
[04:26] Sharon Collier: Oh, for sure. Um, I remember when I first started dating, I got on like LDS Planet or one of those pages and Um, a guy popped in on the messenger that goes between, and he literally said to me, too bad you’re a widow because I need to be sealed. And I thought that was something that you didn’t even need to say. I think I told him that, something you didn’t just pass me by. You didn’t even need to say it. Thanks.
[04:54] Michelle: So, so not only passing you by but voicing actual disapproval, a need to voice disapproval, is what you’re experiencing.
[05:02] Sharon Collier: I, I admire that everybody wants to be sealed, you know, I mean that’s. It’s a good thing, you know, yeah,
[05:09] Michelle: so let’s pause here. I maybe people aren’t up with us. Maybe I’m assuming that people understand what we’re talking about. Could you give us in a nutshell, the challenge that single widows face in the church?
[05:23] Sharon Collier: Um, I don’t want to be negative, but we’re kind of the stepchild, especially a young one. I remember in my last ward, the, um, a lady had her husband gone for 6 months. And she goes, Well, we’re rallying around Toby because her husband’s gone for 6 months, the Relief Society president. And then she looked at me and went, Oh, like, they’ve never, they didn’t know what to do with the 37-year-old widow at all. But a lot of
[05:48] Michelle: when you say he’s been gone for 6 months, more than
[05:52] Sharon Collier: Like he was, he was traveling. Yeah, he was traveling. He was in Hong Kong and he was going to be gone for 6 months. So the whole world was rallying around her because she was home alone with 4 children like me. And, um,
[06:04] Michelle: Oh, sorry, that makes me wanna cry. And so you know,
[06:07] Sharon Collier: and, you know, it’s, it’s something I’ve gotten used to, and I, I never want to be negative, uh, about the church at all. If I was an elderly widow. People will be mowing my lawn and
[06:20] Michelle: the young widows, let’s clarify. So I should have clarified it’s the young widows specifically who have specific challenges. So one of them is being invisible or not seen.
[06:33] Sharon Collier: Little bit, yeah, like, oh, what do we do with you, you know. Yeah,
[06:36] Michelle: I, you know what, I think that probably divorced. Young women and widowed young women have that part in common. I think that’s common to both, that it’s easy to feel forgotten or invisible.
[06:51] Sharon Collier: A little bit and um I had a small conversation with my bishop because he didn’t know who I was and he didn’t know who I, I, tithing settlement. He didn’t know I was widowed. And I’m like, you didn’t know I was widowed? It doesn’t say, if my husband died, my church records say single. It doesn’t, like, they couldn’t put a W on it. It just says single. He had no idea. He had no idea. Oh my goodness. Yeah. And so I had to tell him that, and he was like, Oh, you could tell it’s like, oh, I don’t know what to do with you. You know, what do I do? And then you get you get the little um Obligatory. Well, if there’s anything we can do for you, you let us know. And honestly, I have a really awesome ward, and I’m not going to criticize, but yeah, it is different. It is different, you know, being single in the church is different, being widowed in the church is different. They say we need to take care of the widows, and they kind of don’t. OK, if I had silver hair.
[07:47] Michelle: Then you’d be more, you’d feel a little more taken care of. And so, OK, so that’s the experience in the church. Now, can you talk about being a young widow in the LDS dating pool? Cause that’s a, a little more specific just to widows, I think,
[08:02] Sharon Collier: to young widows.
[08:03] Michelle: What are the challenges there? Like, like, what is it that, what is just nutshell the challenge that there is, because I don’t know if people understand.
[08:11] Sharon Collier: Um, I joke and say we wear a scarlet W on our chest. Um, we, I have, there’s this awesome group of widows just if anybody knows knows. Any widows in Utah it’s LDS widows and widowers. There’s a huge group of us, but we’ll go to dances together and people will literally come up to us and go, are you guys really the widows? Or they’ll say, why do you guys all hang out together? People have said that for years. How come all the widows hang out together? I’m like, who else do we have? You know, like we’re, we’re this exclusive group of cool people or it’s just, you know, it’s just a little different and then, you know, it’s almost like it’s like we have the plague. It’s like, oh, you’re a widow, a widow, you know. So, OK, it’s just different.
[08:56] Michelle: Why do you think that is? Is that, is that because of sort of the tragic element? like what do you? Like, I know that, you know, death makes people uncomfortable. I know. Mhm.
[09:07] Sharon Collier: Yeah, for sure. And then, you know, and people are like, can I ask how he died? You know? And it’s like, well, yeah, you can, you know. And so it’s just, it’s something I’ve gotten, I’ve been widowed for 15 years. So it’s just something I’ve gotten used to, and I kind of laugh it off anymore. Because it’s like,
[09:25] Michelle: oh,
[09:25] Sharon Collier: another one, it’s another widow conversation, another awkward widow. It’s not awkward for me anymore. OK,
[09:30] Michelle: OK, wow, OK, so I guess maybe maybe that could be explained or as like we are. Divorce is much more common, and being never married is much more common. So in a way, we have, because I know that a lot of women who are single for either of those reasons also experience these things of feeling singled out, feeling invisible. But it sounds like being widowed is even a more extreme version of that because it’s not as common and we’re not as comfortable with it or used to it, and we with widows even less. Yeah, like, as hard as it is for single women or divorced women, and probably divorced and single men as well. I don’t want to just, you know, um, as hard as it is for them to feel fully included and seen and understood with widows, it’s maybe even more extreme. And then the specific thing that I wanted to talk about in connection with polygamy is ceiling, is the issue with ceiling, cause that’s the thing that I was the most aware of, that is, that sets widows apart from any other group. Widows are in an infinitely different category than widowers. Right, sure. I would say widowers are, you can correct me if I’m wrong, but widowers are kind of at the top of the availability, desirability market among LDS singles.
[10:52] Sharon Collier: A little. It, it depends on who you talk to.
[10:55] Michelle: OK. It does, you know,
[10:56] Sharon Collier: and they a lot of them have built a shrine to their wife, but yeah, there’s not a lot of baggage. There’s not a lot of baggage like divorce
[11:03] Michelle: so there’s not an X to deal with. There’s not a, you know. But widows, I would say are at like below the bottom of the pool of availability in. Tell us why that is.
[11:18] Sharon Collier: Well, I mean, we can’t get sealed, and most divorced men, um, their spouses have moved on, you know, and the ceiling has been broken and they’re sealed to somebody else. And so it really is kind of like the plague. You know,
[11:34] Michelle: some men,
[11:35] Sharon Collier: yeah.
[11:36] Michelle: So, and I, and I want to be careful to not vilify single men, although it’s a desire,
[11:42] Sharon Collier: it is a righteous desire to want to be sealed. It really is.
[11:46] Michelle: Yeah, yeah, I knew that you wouldn’t vilify them. I need to be careful not to them, but it’s not, it’s not that men are bad, it’s this idea, this idea, because Men who have been widowed, widowers can easily be sealed again, right? With the free understanding that they will have two wives in the next life. Widows, if a man marries a widow. Then any children that they have together will be sealed to the first husband, the deceased husband, and he will be left alone without exaltation, but he will be left without any of those blessings in the next life that we believe are necessary for eternal purpose. that that that I’m trying to understanding that that’s our, that’s our problem, OK, so that’s the problem that we face right now. So. So I think I just want to throw in here how interesting it is to me that I know right now only have 2 members of our top 15, the corner of the 12 and the first presidency, who are widows, who have been widowed, and that’s Um, President Nelson and President Oaks, there may be others. I know we’ve had others in the past, but my recollection is, is that Universally. Men in those positions when they are widowed, do I say widowed? When when their spouse passes away, they marry a single, never been married woman. I know that Wendy Nelson
[13:18] Sharon Collier: that and it does seem like a pattern. I’ve I’ve never heard that like officially, but I have heard that, yes. I like there’s a list or something.
[13:27] Michelle: Right, right, that’s how it appears because there are far more. Divorced or widowed women, then there are never been married women at, um, at the ages that general authorities would be dating. If, if I’m mistaken, that’s my assumption. I haven’t
[13:41] Sharon Collier: looked at that but that’s
[13:42] Michelle: my assumption. I would think so. That’s my experience. And so I know far, far more widowed or divorced women than never married women at, at the, you know, in their 50s, 60s, right, and um 40s, and um. It seems to me that somehow being, you know, definitely being a general authority you have more your pick, right? Right. Oh, and that’s, that’s who they, right, well, that’s who that so that not only is it the The idea that we have been given, but it also is the model that is being set by our leaders. And so that’s an interesting, that’s an interesting thing as well, right?
[14:27] Sharon Collier: Um, I, I, I guess I’ve never thought of that aspect of it, you know, because it’s like you said, widowers are kind of appealing out there, you know, lack of baggage and I do know widowers know what a good marriage is, yeah. Right.
[14:42] Michelle: I have a couple of good friends who are married to widowers and, and, you know, even though they’re like raising their children as their own now, they like they get to step in and become a mother to those children instead of a stepmother, which in some ways is appealing for some women, you know. And I mean, they’re angels to to raise these other children, but I would say that it is a In some ways a less fraught situation cause there isn’t the divorce to Oh
[15:08] Sharon Collier: yeah, there’s no drama. There’s, there’s no, there’s no drama behind it, yeah.
[15:12] Michelle: Right, and so I guess while this idea of polygamy serves widowers quite well, it’s on the back of widows. It’s as good as it could be for widowers, it’s equally or more damaging to widows is is my perception.
[15:31] Sharon Collier: Yeah, there is a clause. Did you know this, that after, like if I remarried after I pass away, then I could be sealed to the next, like, you know, my next husband, they could do that.
[15:42] Michelle: So yes, so I want to share a couple of I have to die first. Right. So the, so the idea is that after a woman has passed away. And I don’t understand. I don’t, it’s hard for me to understand the reasoning behind this, but after a woman has passed away, she can be sealed to both of her husbands or however many husbands she was married to, but it has to be after she died. And with the understanding that she’ll have the option to choose. So there still is that someone’s gonna be left out in the cold if we cling to this ideology, to this idea of. Well,
[16:11] Sharon Collier: it sounds like that. I would hate to actually believe that, but that’s what it sounds like. That’s, that’s,
[16:17] Michelle: I guess that’s the understanding that we, that we, that we have at this point.
[16:22] Sharon Collier: So I can’t, I can’t imagine it being that way.
[16:25] Michelle: Right, right. Well, so, so just as we spoke about, I believe the whole idea is, was a mistake from the beginning. The whole idea of polygamy. I think that we claim to know a lot more than we actually know. That’s my belief. I think that It’s, it’s interesting because, um, so Elder Oak, President Oaks gave a talking conference. I won’t remember how many years ago it was. Was it in, oh, I’d have to look it up. I should have written it down. It’s called Trust in the Lord, and it’s the one where he addressed the woman concerned about marrying to a man who
[16:58] Sharon Collier: was that long ago, like it was maybe
[17:00] Michelle: 2019.
[17:02] Sharon Collier: I was gonna say 2018, yeah, or 20, yeah,
[17:04] Michelle: we can look at it, yeah, and, and it was interesting because It was a little bit hard for me cause he kind of mocked the woman’s concerns, you know, he had everyone laugh about, can I have my own house at least and then like, but, um, where I think these are genuine issues that people, you know, cause I’m sure I was more sensitive to it than others because of my come from. But, um, but the thing that was interesting was the whole theme of his talk was trust in the Lord. The Lord loves us and the Lord won’t leave us hanging, right? And so I find it interesting that we are like we and he says many times throughout it, we don’t know, like it hasn’t been revealed, we don’t know about many different situations, but he I find it interesting because it’s kind of like, well we do know this. We do know that men can be sealed to more than one woman and women can’t be sealed to more than one man. But other than more than one man. But other than that, trust in the Lord and don’t worry about it. And I guess for me, I would like us to take that trust in the Lord one step further, right, to say we don’t know and and the idea of we don’t know one step further to say we truly don’t know, right? There are a lot of Complicated situations in this temporal world that we live in, and we trust the Lord to make all to wipe all tears to, you know, work all things out, and it’s beyond our our understanding, including that men can have multiple wives,
[18:30] Sharon Collier: right? Right, right, but it’s like we don’t know, but we do know heavenly Father. Right, we know he’s not gonna leave anybody hanging, you know? And, um, I’ve actually talked to people, um, I don’t want to say talked them down from having suicide, but, um, I asked a guy once, I said, you know, and he, I think he had attempted at this point. But he, um, yeah, I said, what’s gonna happen to me? Just for listeners, my husband died by suicide. Um, I said, what’s gonna happen to me if my ceiling’s broken? He said, Oh, Sharon, there’s a man, there’s a man in the eternities for you if your ceiling’s been broken. And I said, Well, then why would you do that and have your wife go find some other man in the eternities, you know, kind of thing. So I, I believe that there are There are ways to work it out. Right. There, there are ways, I mean, we, we hear, um. We hear stories like you can’t repent after you die, and if there’s time I can tell the story, but I had a very strong impression that I did something for my husband that helped in his repentance. Right, um, you know, and so there’s just things that we don’t know.
[19:45] Michelle: I completely agree. I completely agree. We know that there is pre, there is, um, providing preaching, what what’s the word I’m looking for, but we, we teach in the next life, and, and we believe in eternal progression. So yes, I, I, I’ve heard that it’s much easier in this life because we have a body, you know, that’s so, but, um, but I wanna jump now so. So I have a couple of um I guess personal stories, my friends, you know, stories that I can share of friends who have been widowed, some experiences they had, and I, I can share a few of those. I also wonder if you have any personal stories. That you want to share and then and with with either that you have experienced or that. People you know in the LDS world have experienced, just so we can give some of the details of how this affects people. And then I do want to play a little clip of your podcast, um, episode that was, that this topic came up, if that’s all right. Oh yeah. So, so, um, first, I’ll share about a friend that I have that, um, she remarried, well, she, um, is a widow and she married a widower. And they, they got married and then had a child together. And she kept her first ceiling, right? So they both have their ceiling intact. And, um, they were coming home from primary one day and their littlest, you know, their, their, yours, mine, and they’re ours, right? I was talking about, um, eternal families and how he was so glad they had an eternal family because that’s what they’ve been learning about. One of the older siblings said, We’re not an eternal family. You’re not sealed to dad, you know, you’re not sealed to dad. Just not trying, not knowing, you know, the damage. It was, I don’t think it was an intentionally mean thing. It was just an older sibling. And that little child was devastated, devastated to find out that he was sealed to someone he didn’t know and that he wasn’t sealed to his dad and that they weren’t a forever family and You know, and that, that mom had a lot of feelings about that. And a lot because she’d been a widow in the dating market before she married her husband, and so she had experienced this already. And it was kind of like it never goes away. It never, you know, so now it was affecting her child and quite devastating to him. And she just kept saying kind of the same thing we’re saying like, God loves us. God knows how much you love your daddy, and he’ll always be your daddy and I’ll, you know, like. Like we have to believe in the goodness of God without knowing the details, right? And um and so I so I guess what I’m want to say, like I just want people to understand that. The um That these ideas do damage currently. They currently hurt people, right? If we, if we don’t understand them correctly.
[22:35] Sharon Collier: Right, well, I can see, yeah, definitely, definitely a child, how that would be um hurtful. I guess I try not to look at it that way, but, you know, you could, you know, it’s because I’m in this situation and I have to make the best of it. And so my, I haven’t had any experience like that with my children and so I’m like that is devastating, you know, for the child and You know, I can say all day, you have to have, just have so much faith because heavenly Father loves us and, you know, it’s all gonna work out and he’s always gonna be your daddy and all this stuff, you know, but it’s like it’s hard for somebody else to understand. You know, it’s like me telling some guy, well, and you have it in the podcast, it’s like, no, you just have to have faith. Easy for me to say I have that ordinance. I have the ceiling ordinance. So it’s, you know, it’s easy for me to say, you just have to have a lot of faith. So yeah, are there complications with it? Yes. You know, for sure. For sure there are, um, I have a friend who remarried a widower, and she said it’s gonna, it’s hard for me to think. That after we both die, I’m gonna shake his hand and same thing, you know, thank you for taking care of me, and go back to my first husband. She goes, because I love him.
[23:47] Michelle: Right.
[23:48] Sharon Collier: You know, she goes, so how is that gonna work? And I’m like, I don’t know, I, I don’t, you know,
[23:53] Michelle: right, it’s really tricky. Right, it’s like these ideas make so much sense on the male side saying I love these two women, but then it puts women who love two men in a difficult spot. And I think for all, like for all of us, it’s just trust in God. I, I wasn’t trying to be too negative. I’m just trying to say. You know, these aren’t easy answers. We don’t have, we can’t pretend that he is an easy answer because it leaves a lot of people out in the cold and
[24:21] Sharon Collier: you know, it, it does, it does, if yeah, I just try not to look at it that way because that’s my life, you know, right,
[24:29] Michelle: right, right, yeah. Well, and I, I guess, yeah, so, so just to clarify, the reason I’m looking at it this way is because I do want to help. I’m I guess what I feel inspired to do is to help people look more deeply into the idea of polygamy to try to investigate whether it’s truly of God. And I know that, you know, Jesus makes it pretty clear how he feels about the widows, right? Like, like, what do we have? James 1:27 pure religion and Undefied is to visit the fatherless and to, you know, take care of the widows. And I guess uh any doctrine that like in a way, that little boy I was talking about that widow and widower son. would be considered fatherless in this doctrine, right? And, and so any theological idea that is that that pushes widows and orphans lower. When, like, so the story of I I just don’t believe that’s of God. I don’t believe that God promotes the most elevated, the most, like, like the general authorities, and, you know, Brigham Young was very wealthy and had, you know, and so he was this doctrine promoted him, elevated him. At the expense of demoting widows in a way that’s, that’s one thing that I think isn’t in anyway, I’m, I’m sorry, I sound like I’m trying to convince you. I just, and for the audience, it’s something to think about at least the idea of polygamy. Another like, I’m sure you’re very familiar of the story with the widow’s M, right? It’s in, um, Luke 21 and Mark 12, and I think we often talk about that more in terms of The widow gave everything her great faith, right? But I think for me, when I read that scripture in context, like, it’s at the very beginning of Luke 21 and at the very end of Luke 20, and also right before it in Mark 12, Jesus is saying, beware of those who devour widows’ houses, who, who build up religion on the backs of the poor, right? And then he sees right then he sees a widow. So either hopeless or, you know, kind of like, what else do I do? I’ll just hope I can go die. Like she gave everything she had. She right. The implication is the possibility that she went home and died, right? That like she had nothing left. Right. And instead of this wealthy Religious system helping her, it was built up on her back. I don’t think that Jesus was saying, oh, isn’t this wonderful? Like my interpretation something is very wrong here because then he immediately after that goes on to say everything’s gonna be pulled down. But you know, like the prophesized the destruction of the temple. So in context, I think that the message I get from that story is that a religious system should never Be built up on the backs of the widows and the orphans and the poor.
[27:30] Sharon Collier: Oh no, and I, after I became a widow, I was a little shocked that there wasn’t more out there for us. Um, because, you know, I talked about it in the podcast, Thomas Monson’s funeral. Take care of the widows and the fatherless, and I thought, yes, yes, there’s going to be something put in place for us. Like, it would be really cool for us to have maybe our own ward. We get together all the time because we understand each other. We went through an ugly thing and we get it, you know, so it would be cool, especially I’m an empty nester, well, most of the time. It depends on who’s moving in and out. But, um, who’s between apartments. But, um, it would be really cool for me to be able to go to church with the other widows, you know, you know, so I thought, you know, because we get it. I remember the first party I went to, I’m like, I’m going to a widow party, and people say that all the time. You’re having your widow friends over like a party. And I’m like, yes, it’s so depressing. We drape ourselves in black and, and we sit around and cry. You know, which we, we don’t, you know, I have a swimming pool in my backyard. We have a riot. In fact, my next door neighbor is single and he goes, I’m dating a widow. Does that mean I can come to your parties now? You know, because we have a great time together because we all get it. We all get each other. And and and when people hear the word widow, it is a little intimidating and scary and you know people are like you hang out with widows. I’m like, yeah, we sit in rocking chairs and knit, you know, sure that’s right.
[29:02] Michelle: Can I tell people, um, I, you’re in Utah, right? You’re near me. So if people wanted to maybe get in touch if there are widows out there who are feeling alone, could, could they contact you through your email, loving coach at gmail.com to see if there’s any Oh, if they can maybe be invited to some of your
[29:20] Sharon Collier: wonderful parties. So, um, Facebook, if they’re not on Facebook, it’s hard, but yeah, they can contact me, um, LDS widows and widowers. There’s an events page that talks about all our events, um,
[29:32] Michelle: there LDS widows and widowers should look
[29:35] Sharon Collier: at Facebook, on Facebook, we do conferences, um. I’ve spoken to a lot of them about dating, being a widow and dating, and, you know, the difference between dating as a widow, you know, we have brain fog, we have scammers that target us. There’s different things that go on. So yeah, but it is a community and it’s a good one. But I really thought after Thomas Monson’s funeral, I thought they’re going to do something for us. You know, and I know it’s hard cause what do you do for us? You know, my own. I don’t like it. I mean, come mow my lawn. If anybody in my ward’s listening.
[30:13] Michelle: Sure. Or just by inspiration, find ways to make, make it more understood cause Thomas Monson, I did, I listened to several of his talks. He, he spoke often about the widows. He, you know, he told often his story of being the bishop of the ward with, was it 83 widows and That was a that was a real message of his was caring for the widows. And I think that you’re right that part of the problem is to be a widow, you have to be in your 70s, 80s, 90s, right? To, to, um, qualify. And so in a way we need more notice taken of the young widows. That’s OK. This is good. So all of us, maybe all of us can take it upon ourselves also to spend more time in prayer. You know, I hope that each of us asks every day, Lord, who can I bless today? How can you use me today, but maybe to specifically focus on, is there a widow who needs Something that I can offer. That’s, that’s a good thing for all of us, even if the church hasn’t come up with a system, each of us can have more awareness. I think that that’s I,
[31:16] Sharon Collier: I’m aware of the widows. I’m,
[31:18] Michelle: I’m certain that you are. Yes, I, I was talking to all of us who,
[31:22] Sharon Collier: yes, I know, no, no, you know, but no, I am more aware of that in my word, you know, it’s like, oh, you’re a widow, you need to come to stuff or you need, you know, it’s like check in more and things like that because, you know, yeah, I, I understand.
[31:35] Michelle: OK, so, um, so I wanna shift to kind of the dating relationship, um, topic, because that’s the one that I was the most aware of. I think that in in stories I’ve heard, and I have to say, you are much, much more patient and nicer about it than I think I am. I, I really admire cause There, um, this podcast episode, your first question on the Q&A you did was a really interesting question, and you were very, very nice in your answer. And so, um, I felt a little more like, Sharon, come on, give him a piece of your mind, you know, so I admire how you handled it. But would you like me to go ahead and play that, or would you rather tell some, have you had other experiences you want to share first, or should I just
[32:28] Sharon Collier: no, no, you can, you can play it.
[32:31] Michelle: OK, so this is at a singles conference at Q and A, and I’m just gonna cut this is episode 11 of the podcast that you can find below. I hope you can hear this.
[32:42] Ian (Phone Caller): OK, we’re here with Ian, and he has a question for us. I do in the dating world of Mormons or LDS that are current temporary recommend holders, um, to find a companion. After the dating process, there are certain Roadblocks that come up and one of them is a person that is currently recommend, but they’re widowed and are sealed to their first husband. And therefore, it’s would be a major red flag. To continue with that relationship if the goal was marriage and she doesn’t want to give up her, her right of her first marriage to us being sealed. Thus also to find a, a person that’s divorced is a little easier because they have every incentive to get rid of that first ceiling and be resealed to someone else. So why is it that these widows are back in the dating field if they’re not going to commit to an eternal uh companionship?
[33:50] Michelle: So why is it that these widows are back at the dating field if they’re not willing to give up their eternal companionship? He’s actually said it.
[34:00] Sharon Collier: He actually said that he he actually said it. He actually said it. Um, are you gonna play the rest of it, or do you want me to talk about it?
[34:08] Michelle: Well, we’ll go on. I had, I had another little clip I was gonna play, but you go ahead and talk. I wanted to give that part to start with just so people could hear. Both the struggle for men, I it is a struggle for men who are not sealed, but OK, I, I, I want to acknowledge that, that these aren’t just bad guys. But also, you know, if we are going to go with this doctrine and this ideology, we have a pretty good role model in Joseph, the the husband of Mary, right? When Jesus was the son of God. So, you know, in the way that Brigham Young taught it, Mary was God the Father’s wife. I, this isn’t, this is not my this is what Brigham Young, who was the teacher of polygamy. So, you know, we do have the role model of Joseph, which is a pretty good role model for a man of faith, but you go ahead and respond to this idea that is actually being said aloud right here.
[35:09] Sharon Collier: So we asked him just beforehand what he wanted to talk about. And he said, you know, I want to know why widows are out there in the dating pool, but he didn’t say anything like the red flag because my first response was, You’re a red flag. The idea that you’re, you just put it into words and not very kindly either. I, I literally, this came up on the page, the widow page, the LDS widows and widowers cause they’re like, I was a little triggered by him. And I’m like, we were all triggered by him. So I maintained professionalism and you know, I, I did, and everybody was like, good job, because I was like, what? I told him, I said I was widowed at 37. It’s like, would you tell me not to ever remarry? My youngest was 6 years old. And so You know, it was like, yeah, my kids probably need a dad, which they ended up not needing, you know? But, um,
[36:08] Michelle: It reminded me of what you said before about the man that needed to go out of his way to tell you, I’m rejecting you because you’re a widow. Like, like, this wasn’t just a question about what do I do about this. This was why are these women doing this when they shouldn’t be doing this. This was very much a judgmental condemning. Response of women shouldn’t be dating, they shouldn’t be dating if they’re not willing to cancel their, like, like he was needing to voice disapproval.
[36:36] Sharon Collier: Oh, he definitely was, and he sat there, he was just really cool too, you know, he sat there like, this is a big problem, you know, and I’m like, you’re telling me that I’m a big problem. You know, but I was nice. I, I handled it. Professionally, but no, it really did bug me. It bugged me for like the rest of the, you know, only we only had 4 people come in and ask questions, but it was like, you’re a red flag, you know, I, I couldn’t even believe like he was saying that out loud and I, he didn’t know I was a widow. When he said it, but it was like, dude
[37:08] Michelle: so you answered, I thought very kindly and repeatedly, but he kept pushing back and pushing back, and also, so I’ll play this is a couple of a couple of minutes into your conversation into your answer when you were saying. I know God, I trust God, and He will take care of men who take care of the widows, cause that’s what you were saying is this is a beautiful way to take care of a widow, to, you know. So here’s one of his responses. This was, I think his maybe last pushback.
[37:36] Sharon Collier: And heavenly Father is going to take care of the people who take care of the widows. There’s no doubt in my mind. So, does that help you a little?
[37:43] Ian (Phone Caller): Well, we don’t have polygamy anymore. And that would be understandable. Like Brigham took care of all these widows when he was in his life, his last part of his life. I don’t think he bothered more than 4 or 5 wives with children, but he, he had married like 20 something just to take care of them. But I’m not here to take care of someone. I’m here to find someone. That I can be eternally sealed with.
[38:09] Sharon Collier: So I guess the answer to your
[38:10] Michelle: question. So you went on to give him the advice, don’t date, don’t I mean it’s really simple. But that’s a big part of the problem that we have is that men won’t date widows. So we have Like a woman widowed as an early 20 or which, you know, I like, like we have women when all through who can face this challenge their entire life of men who just have the parameters set, I won’t date widows. Or who say, I will, I would like to marry you, but only if you will cancel your first ceiling, and what that does to a woman to have to choose, you know, her husband, like, like it’s just an impossible situation that we have created for many women.
[38:59] Sharon Collier: It is, and we all joke because the widowers will date outside our group. Well, you know, we’ll all talk about it. It’s like we have such awesome girls in our big group. Why don’t they date us? Cause they, you know, they’ve dated and married divorced women, you know, so I’ve never gotten an answer from any of them, but yeah, it’s just kind of funny that widowers don’t always look for a widow. So yeah, it does kind of leave us hanging. I get the question all the time. I don’t understand. How are you still single? You know, and I’m like, it’s the Scarlet W on my chest, and I really do try to stay positive. I joke around about it all the time because there’s not a lot I can do about it, you know, it’s just the circumstance.
[39:42] Michelle: It is. I was, I was happy and I love, I love your attitude. I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m saying, your life is horrible. That’s not my goal at all. What I’m trying to do, I appreciate how positive you are, and I do think you have a wonderful energy and a wonderful, you know, like some guy is gonna be really lucky. But, um, but I feel like this, um, needs to be. More people, more people need to be more aware of this, of this challenge that
[40:11] Sharon Collier: there does need to be more awareness. Yes, yes, there does need to definitely need to be more awareness of the younger widows because, you know, but I, I couldn’t go to somebody and tell them. You need to do more for us because I don’t have any ideas either,
[40:27] Michelle: you know, one idea, one idea I have is that we could, like I always say, take polygamy off the shelf and get rid of it because it would solve a huge part of the core, the whole huge core of this problem, not necessarily the getting lawns mowed, cause that’s, that’s all single younger women, you know, that might need different answers, but the Scarlet W. Could be hugely alleviated by acknowledging that we know less than we think we know and that we that that God ordained marriage between a man and a woman every time consistently throughout scripture always, right? That was God’s standard, and that would at least take off this part about not dating widows, making you and your ceiling, and I, I have. I’ve only ever heard one apostle or general authority even acknowledge or speak on this, and I was glad to hear it because I at least know that they know, right? They like they are aware of it. They just don’t speak on it, but it was um Elder Holland, and was it in Lima, Peru? Do I have that right?
[41:39] Sharon Collier: I think
[41:40] Michelle: so. So,
[41:41] Sharon Collier: so I’ll play, I’ll I don’t remember,
[41:45] Michelle: yeah, yeah, I’ll play some clips for that from that, and um, yeah, and I’ll, I’ll just add those in later so we can address them, but um. He says exactly what you’re saying, Have faith, have faith, and marry, he he counsels very clearly, marry a widow and and and and he does he at least acknowledges that it’s a challenge they like gives the example of his friends. And and says how much faith that took for that man. But I do think, my goodness, men of faith, marry marry the widows, date the widows because it is such a mistake to have this, again, just how polygamy tends to benefit men. At the expense of women and really primarily at the expense of widows who, the Scarlet W, right? I, I think that we need to acknowledge that that is a huge problem and see through it and try to eliminate it as much as we can. Try to minimize it.
[42:48] Sharon Collier: Yeah, well. Yeah, it’s a great thought. It’s great. It’s great to bring awareness to it, honestly. So I I don’t, I don’t see it happening, but, oh really?
[43:00] Michelle: OK.
[43:01] Sharon Collier: Hopefully if
[43:02] Michelle: we
[43:02] Sharon Collier: keep,
[43:02] Michelle: if subscribe to this podcast and share it so more and more people, you know, I think there are a lot of more people waking up to these ideas, trying to bring awareness to to the challenges that polygamy still creates for us today, this false doctrine that we have still clung to. And I know that you, you haven’t watched the podcast, so I know you’re, I’m not, I’m not. I’m speaking for you. I’m speaking for myself. But, um, I do want to know, have you personally, other than that man scrolling through and saying, I reject you because you’re a widow and you haven’t canceled your ceiling? Have you had other experiences or
[43:40] Sharon Collier: no? Several 100. I was gonna say several 100. Yeah, when people find out I’m a widow, it’s like, oh, I recently had a guy pop in on Facebook and I’m in a bunch of different singles groups and I teach dating classes to the singles and Um, a guy popped in and he goes, Oh, I didn’t realize you’re a widow. And then he says, I’ll have to pray about it, and I never heard from him again. And so it’s like something I’m totally used to. I’m like, no worries, I’m used to this. No worries. Like, you know, because it’s like, oh, dang, you know, he was excited. I was gonna chat back with him. He goes, can we chat?
[44:13] Michelle: It’s
[44:14] Sharon Collier: not even something that you,
[44:16] Michelle: it’s not something that you have some stories to share. It is something that is a daily consistent
[44:21] Sharon Collier: hundreds, hundreds of stories. I mean, maybe not. I’m exaggerating, but yeah, there’s a lot of stories. I have, yes, been rejected. And I don’t see it as rejection because I do think that is a worthy thing to be, you know, I mean, they do, it’s a, you know, they do need to be sealed and there is confusion about it. So I try not to be too hard on them. But the first time I, I think I did say back to him, I said back to one of them, um. I said, I said, you didn’t need to say that to me. I said just pass me by, you know, I said, next widow, just pass her by. You know, I, it’s rude. It was rude, you know, so, but like I said, there’s not a lot we can do about it, and We do know Heavenly Father, and we do know he’s gonna take care of us. If that’s something I’ve learned as a widow, is that heavenly Father really, really does take care of his children. Like he’s had his thumb on me the whole time. So I have a lot of, I have a lot of faith, you know, and good things are gonna happen to all of us who are righteous and worthy.
[45:26] Michelle: That’s beautiful. I completely like the core of President Oak’s talk of trust in the Lord is so right on the money. It’s such true doctrine, and that’s, I shared in a previous episode I should look up which one it is, maybe the one about eternal marriage, but that there’s kind of a universality among Christians and Mormons and even in our just the culture of things are gonna work out like trust God, God loves us, we’ll be with our loved ones and it’s gonna be OK.
[45:55] Sharon Collier: And I mean, it could be completely different. We, I mean, we really have no knowledge of what the afterlife is, you know, nobody’s come and said, it’s like this, and it’s gonna be great. And, you know.
[46:05] Michelle: Absolutely. Yes, I see, that’s exactly it though. I think that the thing that’s so interesting is that is the answer. That is the answer is trust God, rather than If you are in a situation with a widower who’s sealed the two women, you don’t need to trust God because you know how it’s all gonna work out and it’s perfect. It’s a little package. You have two wives, and the only question is, do I get my own house, according to President, right? So, so we have that, but then we have everybody else who is their situation is made that much worse because it doesn’t fit in that little package tied with a bow. It’s so I think, I think that’s what I guess my My ideal is, is that we can just say we have no idea, you know, the only word Jesus gave us directly in the in in his own words in the Bible is we they are not they neither marry or nor given in marriage in the next life, so we all can interpret what that means and we’ve interpreted that to mean you have to be sealed in this life. Or you’re out in the cold. But even that doesn’t hold up anymore because our teaching, official teaching in the church now is anyone who has not had the opportunity to be married in this life will be given those opportunities in the next life. So we really have zero understanding. So I I don’t think that there needs to be any difference between a widower and a widow in terms of what we claim to understand for the eternities.
[47:29] Sharon Collier: I, I agree. I agree with you. Yes. I also, I also just know it’s all gonna work out, you know. Yes, that’s
[47:37] Michelle: you’re beautiful. Yes, it is, it is. And in the meantime, we all do our best to do what we feel inspired to do and that this is part of what I feel inspired to do. So I hope I’m not putting words in your mouth.
[47:48] Sharon Collier: No, um, I, I have, I have dated a couple of really great guys and um didn’t mind that had that mindset. They’re like, if I, if I do take care of a widow, something great is going to happen to me in the afterlife, you know, that did have a lot of faith in that. And I, I mean, you know, obviously things didn’t work out, but I, I have found, I have found some, and they were very, very well scriptured and well read in that and, you know, very active temple recommend holders and were willing to, you know, give me a shot.
[48:19] Michelle: Can I just say that from my outside looking in perspective, hearing you talk about those guys, those guys sound like the ones with righteous desires, like the knight in shining armor. Those are the guys that I’m like, oh, that’s who I’d want to date. So just a word out to any single guys, be those guys. Like, you will be so much more attractive to all women because you’re not. A selfish jerk. I’m sorry. I know you’re much kinder than that, saying it’s a righteous desire, but my goodness, how selfish it is and how unkind to say, who cares about the widows? I don’t know anything about them, but I want my ceiling. I just, that is a struggle to me and that is also the sort of the mindset that I find in polygamy, right? Like men, like real men are knights in shining armor that that would. They put their cloak down for the damsel in distress, right? And if that’s a widow, my gosh, good on you. God loves you. You’re right there with Jesus, whom he chose to be the father of his son. I mean, I’m right there with Joseph, who he chose to be the father of his son on earth. So come on, like, trust God. And I, I think, so that’s my, that’s, that’s what I’m gonna say. I think you are so kind about this and acknowledging its righteous desire, but I want to call it out and say, hm.
[49:44] Sharon Collier: Well, it’s, it’s kind of it, it’s a catch-22. It’s like, OK, then what’s gonna happen to me in the afterlife? Or, you know, I, I kind of get it. And then, so I study the science, uh, uh, behind love and attraction, and that’s, I became a dating coach and a relationship coach. Um, and understanding the guy brain, I kind of understand the mentality a little bit more. Of
[50:09] Michelle: go into detail on that.
[50:11] Sharon Collier: So I don’t want to represent that I think men are pigs in any way at all, but divorced men. have baggage and it’s not. Uh, I don’t want to. They all of them do. What’s that word? I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna say over generalize. I don’t want to generalize, thank you, but it’s like my ex. divorced me. She moved on and married somebody else. It’s almost like a keep up with the Jones’ thing. Um, rejection does really bad things to men, and yeah, so it’s like, oh no, I have to measure up. So sometimes it’s not, I don’t think it’s doctrine at all, as much as it is kind of measuring up to what the X has done. People get into bad situations and rush into relationships because their ex just got married. You know, I coach people weekly that there’s all sorts of disturbing, you know, injuries they have from their divorces. So I know there’s that aspect of it too, and it’s not just doctrine. It’s this, I have to measure up because I was just put down, kind of thing. So,
[51:20] Michelle: I totally hear you. That is so interesting. If you have time, anyone that hasn’t watched already, I can’t remember which episode it was, it was a recent one called Oh, is it polygamy and the male brain? It’s the one where we go into the science of polygamy. We talk about these things and the actual hormones and the effects on men’s brains that these have. So I want to point out that what you’re describing to me is a way that a doctrine. Can How can I use it? Uh, a man who’s in an unhealthy place, right? Feeling rejected, maybe overloaded on cortisol and testosterone, and his brain is in a bad place. This is a doctrine that serves him in that place. That doesn’t call him to be higher, doesn’t call him to go to a better place and to heal. It keeps him stuck there and gives him a way to It it’s a doctrine that can be weaponized by men who are in a rejected unhealthy place.
[52:24] Sharon Collier: Yes, does that make sense? I know, I totally get that. The church is not run by divorced men. There’s a lot they don’t get, and I think even our bishops, our state presidents, they have a man brain. They can fix their lawnmower because they can see the mechanics in that, and they’re like, sister call you fix your own lawnmower, you know, because they know how to do that. Once they’ve seen 2 or 3,
[52:48] Michelle: just doing something out there to not overgeneralize that there are, there is an overlap, but in general, men have more mechanical brains, women have more interpersonal brains. OK, yeah, as a one standard deviation. Right? OK.
[53:03] Sharon Collier: Thank you for clarifying. Um, but yes, and so I can see their side of that as well, because it’s like they don’t understand. It’s like, why don’t you fix your own mower or you can’t replace your own spark plugs, or, you know what I mean? Because the church is run by men, and I’m not dissing men at all. Men are totally necessary and they’re wonderful, but the church is run by men. That don’t get there I’m sure there’s no woman one on one course when they become a bishop or a state president or a general authority, you know, so it’s just different.
[53:38] Michelle: Right, and, and throughout these podcasts, I hope everyone’s aware, I do try to be very compassionate and charitable to our leaders. So me talking about the problems with particularly and specifically this doctrine. Is not necessarily, it is not at all intended to criticize our leaders. It’s trying to say, hey, all of us are trapped in the false traditions of our fathers. Let’s start shedding those so we can come closer to better truth. And, and so we can recognize how these things are problematic, because I appreciate you doing the same thing for single men, saying, hey, this is where they’re coming from, but I do want to say like, Isn’t it great when a man can heal and not be in those, like, in a way, a man that’s in those energies, boy women run away because Oh
[54:26] Sharon Collier: yeah. Well, healthy women right away. Unhealthy women run right to it, right,
[54:30] Michelle: but my, yeah, that’s my advice is run away from that because that is not, that is that testosterone cortisol overloaded brain and uh like we talked about how married men have higher levels of oxytocin and lower levels of testosterone then. Either single or polygamist men. And that’s interesting, right? And so. And divorced men, their levels go right up, probably higher in cortisol and definitely right up in testosterone, which is trying to be the king of the hill, which you said is trying to one up. Like she’s not gonna get ahead of me. And that’s a really, really not, like I hope that single men can recognize, oh, this isn’t a healthy place to be. I need to do some work so that I can be that knight in shining armor, that godly man. Who is capable of having a healthy, happy relationship with a healthy, happy woman.
[55:24] Sharon Collier: Yes. Well, and I just, I just would think it’s, you know, helping the widows and the fatherless. I just think they’re gonna be blessed beyond, like comprehension for doing that and having the faith. But the men that I’ve found that have been open to dating me have been very, very, um, Like I said, well read in the scriptures and stuff, and they do have a lot of faith anyways, and a lot of them have been to therapy to get rid of a lot of the baggage. Um, so that does say something. And like I said before, I don’t want to disman, but they kind of are dogs, you know.
[56:03] Michelle: Do you mean like the proper care and feeding of husbands, is that what you mean?
[56:07] Sharon Collier: Or I have never read that because I don’t agree with a lot of things that Doctor Laura says. I know she’s a doctor, but she’s an old doctor. Like things that we’ve progressed, but I just wanted
[56:18] Michelle: to define what you meant by I actually haven’t read it either. I thought, I wondered if you meant dogs as in they respond to training. Is that what you meant?
[56:25] Sharon Collier: I tried to, um, yes, no, well, OK, so, uh, a widowed man. And you can edit this out if you don’t like it, but a widowed man is usually married within 9 months, right? Within 9 months of my husband dying, I was still going to school. I was a preschool teacher at the time with my pants unzipped and two different color shoes on. Like, I was not in any kind of place to make any decisions or anything, and they’re usually married within 9 months. And so they have the capacity to break up with someone or divorce and then just get right into another relationship. So when I said men are dogs, they’re not dogs. But you know how dogs can go from female to female to female to female. It’s kind of the same idea, you know.
[57:17] Michelle: Oh, that’s interesting. OK, OK, so some people are gonna hear that and use that as a um evidence for that polygamy is good, and I think I would interpret that differently cause I did actually just look at those statistics recently that men are much in general after um a spouse dies or divorce, they move on much more quickly. And um that, that is statistically true. I think that there are a variety of reasons for that. One is availability. There, there’s, you know, it’s, it’s easier to find a single woman in general than to find a single eligible man often is often the case. But also men. Um, how, how do I, I wish I had just read through this right now, but somehow marriage or, or a companionship regulates a man in ways that are very good for him and he doesn’t do as well alone. So I think it’s a combination of that a woman
[58:16] Sharon Collier: maybe don’t do as well.
[58:18] Michelle: Yeah, yeah, and it’s not, it’s not an insult. It’s just that men do much better with a woman. A woman gen oh again, we’re talking it overgenerations we’re gonna get so much.
[58:27] Sharon Collier: I know we are not general, yeah,
[58:29] Michelle: like please know these are overgeneralizations, but they are statistically true that generally women can do. More women are capable of doing better on their own than men are of doing on their own, just even emotionally and, you know, so, so and then also like you said, I think that probably for some women they um attachment to that specific man that they have lost is more it it’s more about attachment to that specific man than attachment to a man. Right, and for men, sometimes it’s attachment to a woman is so important that they move on quickly.
[59:11] Sharon Collier: Yeah, I, I don’t, I don’t know exactly what it is. I haven’t studied that part of it, but I did have a widower tell me he was over 65, I think, and he said, he said, if I don’t die in the next 3 years, that means I’m going to live, because usually a widower will die within 3 years of his house after a certain age, and he’s like, Dang, I hit that. It means I’m gonna live, you know. So there is something about the man needing a woman. Um, but I don’t know specifically what that is.
[59:42] Michelle: OK, that’s so interesting. So they’ll move on quickly or for older men, they’ll die more quickly because for like often I’ve heard it said that like a woman is a man’s purpose for everything he does and you know, like that’s what I mean by that kind of, it gives him it’s it’s sort of the The gravitational pull that keeps structured
[1:00:06] Sharon Collier: and the wiring, you know, all the dating coaches that I’ve ever listened to, it’s like, you know, um. Just tell him he’s great. You know, like men need this validation and men need this stuff, and it’s, and it all comes from us. It’s like, if you want to catch a man, you have to make him feel emotionally connected to you because this is how they are. But it’s like, no, always validate him. Always tell him he’s awesome, he needs all that, you know, kind of stuff. And so it’s like it, it, it is in the wiring somehow. I, I couldn’t tell you how though.
[1:00:39] Michelle: OK, OK, so, OK, this is interesting. So statistically men move on more quickly than women into a subsequent relationship, but that doesn’t in any way, um. I, I wanna clarify that that doesn’t in any way. That’s not evidence to say that men should have more than one relationship at a time, however, heaven,
[1:01:06] Sharon Collier: no, heavens, no. I mean, I think it’s pretty much all over the scriptures that they shouldn’t. Right, right, that they, that they shouldn’t. So yeah, no, I’d go with that one. No, I, I can see that and I could see um. I can see that. I can see that being exciting for men. But my husband used to say, you know, he’d walk in the door after work and I’d start talking to him about the day, and he’d go, this makes me believe that polygamy is not true. He goes, I couldn’t imagine two women doing that to me. That’s so funny, you know, because I would, I’d unload the day on him and he’s like, OK, I let me get my shoes off. And, you know, he’s like, What if two women were doing that? Anyways, so, um.
[1:01:48] Michelle: Yeah, OK,
[1:01:49] Sharon Collier: so,
[1:01:49] Michelle: so moving on and needing and and men doing better in a relationship is is it’s a relationship, right? That’s what, that’s what the value is, um, for a man. So, OK, is there anything else that we haven’t covered that you think would be valuable to talk about?
[1:02:08] Sharon Collier: I’m trying to think, we’ve covered so many things that were so unexpected. Oh unexpected things came up that I’m like, wow, um, I cannot think of anything.
[1:02:20] Michelle: OK,
[1:02:21] Sharon Collier: have we covered everything? I’m just trying to think now, because this, yeah, this was really fun.
[1:02:28] Michelle: Good. So as a relationship coach and a dating coach, what advice would you give to, I guess both widows, young widows, and also single men, like if you could, if you could say this is the very best that thing you can do, you know, what is some advice that you would give? Well,
[1:02:48] Sharon Collier: I just think To love God is to know God. And it really does take a lot of faith, but we can have that. You know, we, you know, it doesn’t. Some as good is gonna happen. I just think God is so just and loves us so much that nobody’s gonna be punished for marrying a widow. Nobody is gonna not get a chance to have that ordinance. It’s just not gonna happen. It’s not gonna happen. But you know, if you don’t know God and love God, start because He’s just and kind and loves us.
[1:03:29] Michelle: And that’s the source. I love that. I talked in other episodes about um how I believe that the adversaries tools like like the center of the adversaries tools in my, in my worldview are in my experience are fear and shame and um blame or resentment. So that’s and so. If those are the motivations, then you know that you’re not. I, I believe. I try never to, I try to not make decisions based on any of those, um, motivations. And on the other side, I believe that the motivations of God are just true love and peace and truth, right? And so if we’re looking at this Topic, um, even of not dating a widow, that seems to be really based in fear, right? Fear about the next life. And also some level of shame in terms of like, I’ve got, I can’t be left behind where my ex-wife is, or, right? And then also some level of blame, they shouldn’t be out dating. They shouldn’t be in the In the in the dating pool when they’re not canceling their feelings, right? And so I think that it’s good to see, oh, I don’t think that those are godly motivations leading to that attitude. And whereas like you said, to have love and say I love this woman, and I want to be married to her, and I love God and I know that God is good. So I know, you know, and we can say, let’s just cut the whole polygamist ideology out of it because really a woman marrying a widowed man shouldn’t have an easier time of it than a man marrying a, like it should be the same thing. It should be exactly the same. So if we can just come to it and say, I don’t know exactly what this is gonna look like, but um, but I know that God is good, and I know I love this person, and I know I love God, so I’m good. Like, which of those feels better, right? Which of those feels like it’s divinely inspired? Right. And then I also want to repeat the plea, I guess, well, and first of all, the single women, like, in general, I just, and single men. I think we all can strive to do better to help them feel seen and understood, and cause there’s so many less there’s so many times that that’s a painful place to be. But I think it’s good to draw extra attention to the single widows, the young widows in particular, cause I think we do give up, like it’s easier, uh, I don’t want to compare. We have a place to fit in older widows. We don’t really have a place for younger widows to fit in our paradigm or our experience. And so that’s really good for all of us to be more aware of. And um and do you have any recommendations? What would you advise if you could say this is what it should look like? I know you said you didn’t have perfect solutions, but what would you think?
[1:06:26] Sharon Collier: Um, Oh, as far as like us in the church.
[1:06:30] Michelle: Yeah, like for individuals, what would help you as a young widow? What would have helped you feel more seen and included, and also, what can you imagine maybe the church could do to be more helpful? Other than clarifying, we don’t know anything about marriage in the next life and getting rid of this this red W that you all were, the Scarlet W. Other than that, what would you advise?
[1:06:56] Sharon Collier: Um, so your first question was what, because I had an answer for that. I don’t have.
[1:07:01] Michelle: The first question was us as individuals. What, what would, what could we do that would help young widows or that would have helped you?
[1:07:08] Sharon Collier: Um, The way people say things. I Valuable. You know, um, trying to include us by being condescending. 00, I, I honestly, I’m like I’m the stepchild. Oh, what do we do with you? Oh, it’s it’s a big relationship dinner. I remember being on the committee, um. The party committee for relief Society and we were doing a relationship dinner, it was like, oh, what do we do with you? And I was like, I’m like, you leave me in the kitchen? And you guys go enjoy your husbands and the relationship dinner, you know, and let me do stuff kind of thing, but it was watch what you say, watch what you say and how you say it. Because we don’t have the plague, we’re not contagious, you know, it’s almost like talking to a sick person sometimes, just, just some of the ways that people have said things to me. So I guess, I guess that would be my big advice and include us, include us, not as a single person, include us as a person. I didn’t mind being in the kitchen. They could have said, would you be in the kitchen for the relationship dinner? You know, and I would have
[1:08:19] Michelle: or they could have said, they could have said, these are the things we need done. So, oh, what advice do you have for the singles in the ward? Or, you know, would you like to get a date? Would you like to come with a friend? Would you like to be in the kitchen and let you have your own autonomy? To, to, right, I somehow if we again taking the fear out of it is helpful,
[1:08:40] Sharon Collier: right, right. And on another note, I would really love to choose my calling, but
[1:08:47] Michelle: I hear you on
[1:08:48] Sharon Collier: that
[1:08:48] Michelle: one.
[1:08:50] Sharon Collier: I’m like, ask single people what they would like to contribute in the ward, maybe. Not necessarily let them choose their calling, because there’s been some callings I’ve had that’s like, serious. Um, you know, in my life right now, I travel and do other things as a coach, and so it’s not conducive to some callings, but there’s just been some kind of insensitive things along the way that, um, oh, because you’re single, you could do this kind of thing. Um, because you’re single, we’re gonna put you with another single sister to do this. So, yeah.
[1:09:22] Michelle: My, um, I have a couple of experiences with that. I think that that’s a, a general, like, I had, um, my 1st 4 children really close together. I’ll share my story then share one of my sisters. This isn’t about single, but I had 4, I had 2 in diapers 18 months apart and 18 months later I had twins. So I had 4 in diapers. The oldest wasn’t, were barely turned 3, and I was called to be a nursery worker. Um, that was the first calling I ever turned down. I was like, no, OK. And then, um, and then so so that sometimes happens, but I do, my sister who has spent who spent a lot of years single in the church, she was called to be, I, I, she was, she was not doing well, just so many responsibilities. She had no financial support that You know, she was the provider and the single parent and, and not at all involved, um, ex-husband financially or in any way. And she was just trying so hard. And I think a man in the ward was a single father and the ward was like, Organizing meals to be brought over and, you know, I, I don’t know if he had just moved into the ward or whatever. And she, and then while that was happening, she was called maybe to be the compassionate service leader and given this big list of her and she just broke down at that point and said, If I were a man, you would be arranging help for me, but you want me to be the one giving service when I have this house full of children and I’m trying to killing myself working, trying to be a mom. So there is definitely a need to be aware. I think that just in general, I mean, we all need to be more inspired by the spirit because there are hard times for everybody everywhere, but single, single people in general, um, and maybe single women need some of our extra prayers and Guidance. We just need all to be as active, activated by the spirit as we can be. And then I think I love your attitude cause on all sides to do our best to both be inspired, but also to be quick to forgive, quick to understand, right?
[1:11:24] Sharon Collier: Like, right. And I mean, you, I have to put myself in their shoes and say, OK, I get it, you know. But yeah.
[1:11:32] Michelle: OK.
[1:11:32] Sharon Collier: And I, I would say that, put yourself in our shoes for a minute, you know, to, you know, it’s like if you You know, if you’re wondering about us, put yourself in our shoes and, and, and how would that feel, you know, I, I don’t feel like, you know, and so, yeah, for church leaders, I would say yes to that, um.
[1:11:51] Michelle: Well, and not have it, go ahead, I’m sorry.
[1:11:55] Sharon Collier: Oh no, I just was, it just doesn’t happen a lot. They just don’t. You know, it’s like I oh Sharon’s doing OK, you know, Sharon hasn’t asked for anything she’s doing OK.
[1:12:05] Michelle: So, OK, let me, let me just add this in while you’re saying that, um, While you are saying put yourself in our shoes, I do want to say the same thing for those who are committed to the idea of polygamy, right? To who are committed that that polygamy is an eternal doctrine of God inspired by God. Put yourself for a minute in the shoes of widows who are told, oh, I won’t date you, oh, you shouldn’t be dating. Oh, you have to choose between your beloved husband who, you know, who has died and me, you need to leave one of us out in the cold, or you like. Or, or who are just told again and again, I’m not gonna date you. I’m not gonna date you and who don’t have the opportunity to remarry and live, many young widows live their, their majority of their life alone centrally because of this problem, right? And so I think Jesus, who is the ultimate one who understands each of us, right? Would God, who told us all of these things about caring for the widows, who paid so much attention to that, would God ordain a doctrine. That took widows who traditionally have always been the ones the most in need, widows and orphans, right? And still in many ways are would God ordain a doctrine that would push them even lower, that would elevate those at the top at the expense of those at the bottom. Consider that, pray about that. Ask God if that is truly of Him because we have, we have, oh, I didn’t write down the verse. Oh, it’s the people of King Lemhi, I wanna say, who were defeated by the the um Lamanites 3 times, and then they finally humbled themselves to the earth and accepted the burdens that were put on them, so they were incredibly poor, they were enslaved and captive. And there were many, many, many, many, many, many widows because the only reason like they had lost too many men to even try to fight anymore. And King Lim H assured that those widows would be cared for and it didn’t require them being married to do it. He didn’t set up a. Polygamous to pretend that the reason for it was to care for the widows. So I think that throughout time, God has a special place in his heart. Jesus certainly did and spoke about it often, about the widows and the orphans. And I think if we would be godly, we need to do the same thing and refuse to believe in a doctrine that further harms those who already have a hard road to hoe, the widows and orphans. Right. So that’s my plea to the listeners is to really take that to the Lord if you’re still considering these ideas. But, Sharon, I want to thank you so much for being willing to sit down with me. I know we went a lot of places you, I guess didn’t expect, so I know.
[1:15:01] Sharon Collier: That’s what editing is for, right? Right,
[1:15:02] Michelle: right, but anyway. I hope that you enjoyed our time together. And would you like to end with a testimony? Is there anything you’d like to share in closing by putting you on the spot?
[1:15:15] Sharon Collier: You are putting me on the spot. Um, no, there really isn’t. I appreciate you doing this. I appreciate you. Um, I feel validated today and, um, I appreciate you doing this. I, I’ve never really considered. The fact that it was really polygamy that really has Done this, you know, that put the Scarlet W on me. And so, um, I appreciate you today. Thank you very much.
[1:15:43] Michelle: Sharon, thank you so much. Thank you. And I do just want to restate your testimony that you’ve stated so many times about trust God and God loves us, and it’s all gonna be OK. It’s all gonna be OK. But the more that we can do to get rid of false traditions. The, the more quickly it can be, I’ll be OK,
[1:16:03] Sharon Collier: right, right, you never know. You never know,
[1:16:07] Michelle: right.
[1:16:07] Sharon Collier: So thank you so our church, you never know, right?
[1:16:12] Michelle: Thank you everyone for tuning in and we will see you next time.
[1:16:16] Sharon Collier: OK, bye-bye.
