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In this second of a three part series on King David we investigate Samuel and his involvement in the dissentions, instability and conflicts that plagued the kings of Israel. We discuss the beginnings of David’s polygamy and discuss the outcomes for several of his children. We also explore the tragic life and experiences of Michal, the daughter of Saul and first wife of David.

Summary

In this episode, Michelle Stone continues her deep dive into King David’s polygamy, analyzing how Samuel, Saul, and David navigated power, kingship, and divine authority. She explores how polygamy, political instability, and personal ambition shaped biblical history, drawing connections to modern Mormon theology and the LDS Church’s evolving stance on polygamy.

Key Themes:

  1. The Political and Spiritual Role of Samuel
    • Samuel was both a prophet and a judge, but his decision-making and leadership are questioned.
    • Stone presents Samuel as a manipulative figure, noting how he undermined King Saul despite previously anointing him.
    • Samuel’s treatment of Saul appears contradictory, as he first ordains him but later abandons and condemns him over minor infractions.
  2. Saul’s Rise and Fall: A Flawed King
    • Saul was initially reluctant to be king, but he ruled with righteous intent before falling out of favor with Samuel.
    • His downfall stemmed from perceived disobedience in matters of sacrificial offerings and warfare.
    • Stone questions whether Saul’s failures were divinely mandated or engineered by Samuel’s hostility.
  3. The Rise of David and the Succession Crisis
    • David was secretly anointed as Saul’s successor, but no one else was informed, leading to political chaos and paranoia.
    • The resulting instability led to civil war, with David and Saul’s heirs battling for the throne.
    • David’s moral character is scrutinized, especially in his interactions with women and his growing harem of wives and concubines.
  4. David’s Wives and the Role of Women in Biblical Patriarchy
    • Michael (David’s first wife) was used as a political pawn, taken from David, given to another man, and later forcibly reclaimed.
    • Abigail, a woman of wisdom and diplomacy, became one of David’s wives after her husband’s death.
    • David’s polygamy led to fractured families, betrayal, and generational conflict, culminating in violence among his children.
  5. The Witch of Endor and Saul’s Desperation
    • In a dramatic turn, Saul, having been abandoned by Samuel, consults the Witch of Endor to summon Samuel’s spirit.
    • The prophecy foretells Saul’s downfall and death, which soon follows in battle.
    • Stone critiques how spiritual authority was wielded, drawing parallels to modern LDS leadership and its evolving doctrine.
  6. Lessons on Power, Polygamy, and Faith
    • David’s polygamous household was filled with betrayal, rape, and murder among his children.
    • Stone challenges the modern LDS defense of polygamy, arguing that the biblical record actually condemns polygamous practices.
    • She emphasizes the dangers of blind faith in religious authority, encouraging listeners to critically examine scripture and history.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Welcome to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon Polygamy, where we explore the scriptural and theological case for plural marriage. I’m so glad you’re here. I always recommend listening to these episodes in order starting from the beginning because they are meant to build on each other, and I think you get the most value out of this podcast that way. My name is Michelle Stone, and this is episode 23, part two of David’s Polygamy. Thank you for joining us as we take a deep dive into the murky waters of Mormon polygamy. Last week I failed to thank a new um supporter of this podcast, Whitney. Thank you so much. And then also a new supporter Heather and all of those who have donated, I thank you so much for your continued ongoing support. It means so much to me. Um, of course, the links are below if anybody wants to support this podcast through Patreon or Venmo. I’m still trying to keep all the pieces together. Any help is very, very appreciated. So last week we looked at David and explored the history of leadership in Israel to try to get an understanding of how that culture emerged with kings. And um we’ll pick up where we left off this week looking at Samuel and Saul and David and the continued saga of David’s kingship and polygamy, and the lessons we can and should expect to take from his example, what we, what, what we should learn from him. This story has been so huge. I’ve kind of gotten lost in it trying to study it, and, um, it’s actually gonna be 3 parts we’re gonna save for next week, specifically the parts about Jonathan and Bathsheba because I think they are very, very important. So, um, I, I have to make some apologies. Last week I was pretty sleep deprived and this week I’m not feeling a whole lot better and I don’t have the full mastery that I wish I did and the clarity, so. If these last week and this week, please don’t judge the whole podcast based on these episodes. If you really want to get just the heart of David, maybe check out next week because we’re going to really look into some core issues. But I also have just been fascinated by what I’ve been learning about Israel and about this culture that, that, you know, really we have taken to shape our culture in large part. So I think it’s been interesting and useful. I do want to say one thing that has been very difficult is that One of my best resources has always been the church website, Church of JesusChrist.org. I still just always out of habit type in LDS.org because I’ve used it for so many years and it has always been my favorite way to study, um, because I can search the scriptures. By keywords, phrases, however I want to, it tells me exactly how many times that phrase or some version of that phrase is in each book of Scripture. I can organize it various ways. And sadly, starting the first day I noticed was, I believe, June 6th, the church took that the website lost that functionality. It took away the ability to, um, limit our searches to the scriptures. I don’t know why. I, um, Assumed it was a glitch. I sent feedback. It didn’t get fixed. I sent feedback probably 5 times and kept getting responses that seemed not very helpful and not very hopeful. And just last night, there seemed to be some bit of a change. So I’m recording this on what is it? It’s June 30th,

[00:03:21] the last day of June that I’m recording this. So it’s been 3/3 weeks, almost a month. And the website is still having this problem, but now it seems that maybe it’s not a problem, and maybe this is how they’re going to do it from now on, where if you search a term, they now will let you limit it to scriptures, but what it brings up is a Prepared page that the church has made that will tell you something about that term and then list the scriptures. It’s not anything like it used to be. It’s, um, better than not having anything like it’s been this last month. But anyway, I’m, I guess I’m bringing this to your intention in the hopes that anyone who feels so inclined will please send feedback. There’s a Feedback link you can push on the church website. If you will just send feedback and ask them to please restore the functionality of the search tools that used to be on that website so that we could search scriptures. It is a big loss, and, um, I’m really, really hoping that they will bring it back and restore it to the way that it was because I, it’s hard for me to understand why they would make this change, and I really, really want it fixed. So anyone who feels so inclined, maybe go check it out, see what it looks like on the website. I, I mean, I hopefully it will be fixed and people seeing this in the far into the future won’t need to worry about it, but if not, please let them know. Uh, send your feedback and ask them to fix that. OK, now getting on to our subject matters, so. Uh, I, I just, I’ve been so torn about how deep to go into this story. So I’m doing my best and I hope you find value in it. The things that are interesting to me, I’m going to talk about because it’s been so much study and so much work. But I want to start out talking about Samuel, Samuel the prophet. I, um, you know, in so many ways he does so many good things and says so many good things, but I also, as I’m reading it again and again, I’m seeing him as a bit of a trickster. Um, you know, like he, he just seems to cause at least as many problems as he solves, and so I’ve been struggling with him. Um, let’s see again, to repeat from last week, he’s the high priest of Israel who installed and supported his corrupt sons as judges. He was the high priest and the judge, and then he was very angry and I think felt personally rejected when the people wanted a king. And um then he ordains and installs Saul as king in chapter 10. But it seems to be filled with so much resentment. He’s, he’s repeatedly voicing even while he is introducing Saul to the people of Israel and saying this is your new, new king, he is again and again voicing how, how upset he is and how upset God is that they want a king. So it almost seems like he’s setting Saul up to fail from the very beginning. Here’s just one example. This is 10:19. And ye have this day rejected your God who Himself saved you

[00:06:10] out of your out of all your adversities and your tri tribulations, and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the Lord by your tribes and by your thousands and come and meet your king. He’s like, Fine, you’re getting what you want. You know, and it’s really interesting because while Saul was rejected, God did say, yep, give them a king, right? And so he is, God has given permission. He doesn’t need to keep harping on them. What you’re doing is bad and still there’s that dilemma of Saul was allowing his corrupt sons to be judges, so it wasn’t good government. And so anyway, I find that all confusing and as I go through the story again and again and again. Samuel, did I mix up the words? I’m sorry, Samuel is the prophet, Saul is the king if I mix him up, forgive me. Um, Samuel is undermining Saul again and again, and it’s so interesting. So, um, I want to also point out that Saul does seem to be a righteous man. It records that he has given a new heart, he prophesized in the name of the Lord. Um, this, this is all in chapter 10 when he is installed in King also as king. Also, he didn’t want to be king. He wasn’t seeking this, he wasn’t self-aggrandizing or seeking power. In fact, when Saul was introducing him to the people, he ran and hid. He was overwhelmed and and this was not like Saul’s doing. This was Samuel’s doing. And so, so he sets him up as king, and then as soon as Samuel is, as soon as Saul is doing well, as it’s like two of my kids if they have the same name, I cannot keep them apart. So please, like I tell my kids listen to what I mean, not just what I say. So if I get them wrong. Um, anyway, in chapter 12, Saul seems to be doing in chapter 11, I mean, Saul seems to be doing well. He wins an important victory for Israel. He gained support of those who were his detractors and And he even shows mercy of those who are speaking against him and doesn’t have let allow them to be killed. So he seems to be um uniting the kingdom under under him and doing well. And then the very next chapter, Samuel gives a very troubling ser sermon. It almost feels like, I know there are different ways to view it. I’m just sharing how this is reading to me. It almost feels like, oh no, Saul is doing well. Samuel’s feeling threatened, so he has to again undermine him, and he gives him this gives this really powerful sermon again telling them how can how bad it was that they wanted a king, how they have rejected God. Um, he asserts that he has never taken a bribe or been corrupt, so he asserts that he was a good ruler without acknowledging that he installed his corrupt sons who were taking bribes and being corrupt, and then he accuses Israel of ingratitude. And then he curses them, so

[00:09:02] he curses them and that the the the it’s the wheat harvest, and he brings down a giant storm, so the harvest is ruined. And so once the people are all, you know, afraid and repentant, and they say, and all the people said unto Samuel, pray for thy servants unto the Lord thy God, that we die not, for we have added unto all of our sins this evil thing to ask us a king. And so he gets them to this point where they’re like, we’re sorry, we’re sorry, we’re sorry, you know, just as Saul is getting the support of Israel and gaining some victories, and then Samuel does this, and, um, Samuel seems to be pleased by their repentance, but he ends his sermon by saying this is verse 25, but if ye shall still do wickedly, ye shall be consumed, both ye and your king. So it’s, it’s really interesting and then. We go on and it seems to me that Saul is doing exactly what a king is supposed to be doing, especially, you know, he was just a guy who now is king and he’s doing his best. He’s, um, he’s leading the people to war, which seems to be one of the main things that a king of Israel does, and he has, they’re they’re getting ready for this important battle, and he has his army gathered. And is waiting for Samuel to come and offer sacrifice like he has said he would do so they could go to battle. So Samuel has told Saul, I will come and offer a sacrifice. Don’t go to battle till I do. I will do. I will be there in 7 days. But Samuel doesn’t come. He doesn’t come when he says he’s going to come, and Saul is really in a precarious situation. The army, the, um, I believe it was the Philistines, but I didn’t write it down. So if that’s wrong, forgive me, but let’s say the Philistines are gathering together and now are threatening to attack when Saul had wanted to attack his own army has been waiting and gathered and they’re starting to scatter. So he’s like, we’ve got to go, we’ve got to move. Where’s Samuel and Samuel doesn’t come. So Saul, it seems to me does the best thing he can and he’s like, OK, I will offer the sacrifice. So he’s trying to be obedient in this difficult situation. It it seems to me at the most it was um a sin of like, like it couldn’t be a sin. It was a mistake of ignorance at most if he was supposed to do this, but it’s like, why didn’t Samuel come? This was important. Samuel was Samuel said he would be there and he didn’t come. So he left Saul in this terrible situation, and then as soon as Saul offers the sacrifice, then Samuel comes. It almost feels like he was waiting just so he could catch Saul doing something wrong. And then he, um, really lets him have it. Let’s see. And it came to pass as soon as he had made an end of offering the burnt offering. Behold, Samuel came and Saul went out to meet him, that he might salute him. So Samuel, Saul’s like,

[00:11:46] Great, Samuel’s here. He doesn’t think he needs to run and hide or anything. Um, and, and Samuel said, What hast thou done? And Saul said, Because I saw that the people were scattered from me and that thou camest not within the days appointed and that the Philistines gathered themselves. It is the Philistines, and that the Philistines gathered themselves together at mishmash. Therefore, said I, the Philistines will come down upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the Lord. I forced myself, therefore, and offered a burnt offering. And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly. Thou hast not kept the commandment of the Lord, which he commanded thee. For um, for now would the Lord have oh wait, I was going to stop there, but for now would the Lord have established thy kingdom upon Israel forever. But now thy kingdom shall not continue. The Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord commanded him to be captain over his people because thou hast not kept that which the Lord commanded thee. So I looked for what commandments Saul broke here. I, if someone else knows, again, I’m struggling to search the scriptures like I used to be able to until the church fixes that, but um, but the best I could do, I tried to find what commandment it was he broke, and I couldn’t find it anywhere. I couldn’t find anything, and Saul doesn’t seem aware of a commandment that he broke. And so for this tiny little mistake, if it was that one, really wouldn’t you think Samuel would come and say, I’m so sorry I got hung up like it reminds me of Gandalf when he tells Frodo and the hobbits that he’ll meet them in the in the town and then he doesn’t go get there and you know, he apologizes and the reason he didn’t get there was because he was imprisoned by Saruman, am I getting all the names right? My husband will kill me if I miss them up, mix them up. He knows this so well. But anyway, it reminds me of that. Like Gandalf doesn’t come, and he’s like, I am terribly sorry. And there was a really good reason he didn’t come. Why didn’t Samuel come? Why didn’t he take responsibility? And why is Saul for this Saul was trying to serve the Lord. He was like, we need to offer supplication before we go to war. So we’ll do, we’ll do that. He didn’t go to war without supplication. Anyway, it’s, it’s really strange to me. So, um, OK, let’s see. So it does feel like I, I don’t know, um, Eli was rejected for upholding his wicked sons, but Samuel did the same thing. Saul was trying his best to do the job that was thrust upon him and for this rather slight. Mistake, he and his entire house are rejected, but then it gets even worse in chapter 15 when Saul inadvertently and again unknowingly messed up a second time. So, um, this time, let’s see. Um, OK, so this,

[00:14:34] this one again is difficult because apparently the Lord commands genocide. According to Samuel, God commands Saul to commit genocide against this um town, the amount of kites. So he, so Saul is supposed to go in and kill every single person and every single thing. And he tells Samuel afterward, verse 13, he says, Blessed be the name of the of the Lord. I have performed the commandment of the Lord, but Samuel disagreed with him in skipping to 18, and the Lord, um, Sam Samuel says to Saul, The Lord sent thee on a journey and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed. Wherefore, wherefore didst thou not obey the voice of the Lord, but didst fly upon the spoil and didst evil in the sight of the Lord. And Saul said unto Samuel, Yeah, I have obeyed the voice of the Lord and have gone the way which the Lord sent me and have brought Agag, the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites. But the people took of the spoils sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed to sacrifice unto the Lord thy God and Gilgal. So, so he’s not, I mean, I, I don’t know, we, I have always been told that this story about how about Saul’s disobedience and his faulty obedience, but To me, there are so many other things to consider. First of all, God commanded genocide. I’m just gonna pause on that for a minute because. Yeah, what does that mean? How does that work if we actually actually look at it? I, I just, God is the same and unchanging today, tomorrow, and forever, right? Does God command that innocent children be slaughtered, right? It just, that’s something right there that it’s like, OK, the Old Testament is We need to bring a critical eye to it. Shall we say that, right? And then it’s not like Saul was trying to do anything wrong again, right? He didn’t want to keep the king for some reason. He was trying to serve the Lord, it seems to me in a more faithful way. He was like, I will bring the king and offer him to God, you know, sacrifice him in this way, and the best of the flocks, we will offer as a sacrifice to God rather than just killing them. But again, He was, he was wrong, and Samuel really lets him have it, and his house is completely rejected forever, and Samuel never speaks to him again. So let’s see, Saul, he does attempt to repent. I feel like I’m missing something because I’m not staying with my notes, but Oh well, I think we’re getting enough. Um, Saul attempts to repent, but apparently

[00:17:19] either there’s no such thing as repentance at this time or it just doesn’t cut it. It’s this is we’re in chapter 15 verse 25. Now, therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin and turn again with me that I may worship the Lord like Saul’s heart is so good. It seems to me. And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee, for thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord hath rejected thee from being king over Israel. And as Samuel turned away to go, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantel. Saul grabbed him, and it rent, and Samuel said unto him, The Lord hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day and hath given it to a neighbor of thine that is better than thou. And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the end of his death. Nevertheless, Samuel mourned for for Saul, and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel. So Right, the Lord, darn it, I really messed that one up. Darn, too bad I didn’t know who Saul was well enough, right, that God said that. So there are things here that we should take and also the things I find really interesting with Samuel here, why I see him as the trickster. He does everything he can to undermine Saul and to make him paranoid and jealous, right? He twice tells him there’s someone else way better than you, that God is going to have be king, but he doesn’t remove Saul as king. He leaves him in his place and king and in as king and instead undermines him, making him. Paranoid and terrified. Like, OK, I didn’t ask to be king. You told me to be king. Now I’m trying to be king, and all you’re doing is getting mad at me and telling me that I’m rejected as king, but I’m still supposed to be king. What am I supposed to do here is how is how it feels to me. So, um, so it’s right after this, a little while after this that Samuel goes and finds David and ordains him as king. But again, tell me if I’ve missed it, cause apparently Samuel doesn’t tell anybody else that he has ordained David as king of Israel. He doesn’t tell tell the heads of the tribes, he doesn’t tell. Saul, he doesn’t tell the elders of Israel. He just does this thing that seems to intentionally set up the entire sequence of. Saul being paranoid and insecure this this terrible division between Saul and David, this it it seems to intentionally set up and ensure instability, civil civil war, massive bloodshed in Israel, which Is exactly what it does. That’s exactly what happens. So again, it’s hard for me to see God as the author of this. I have to think of Samuel in a different way than as, um, what we would envision as a prophet of God, right? Um, and so he’s definitely a mortal man. It’s, I,

[00:20:12] I guess the easiest way for me to take it, and again, you guys can tell me what you think, but he, he, he has his own motivations, his own desires, his own ambitions, his own feelings, his own resentfulment, his own. Struggling with feeling rejected, that is just getting in the way and he’s saying it’s all of God, right? And so, anyway, so it becomes very confusing. So, OK, we’re gonna skip forward a little bit. So from there David is ordained to be king by Samuel. Then he becomes Saul’s armor bearer, companion, personal musician. He slays Goliath, he becomes the leader of Saul’s armies, and he becomes best friends to Saul’s son, which we will discuss more in the next episode. And he becomes Saul’s son-in-law and Saul’s mortal enemy. I think that this like it makes me a little more sympathetic with Saul with how crazy he got, kind of knowing what Samuel did to him, right? It’s really, really interesting. So, OK, now we’re gonna skip down now and talk a little bit about David’s wives. So his first wife, Michael, we talked last week about how um Saul in trying to get David to get killed. You know, um, enticed him with marrying his daughter. It was going to be Marra, but then he married Mary, his older daughter, away to somebody else. And he offered Michael as long as David would bring 100 for kins, 100 Philistine foreskins for his dowry, thinking he would get killed. Now, again, I just want to pause here because we just get used to these stories, right? This is so. Strange, and I don’t think it’s only strange because of our cultural biases, right? Like they had a covenant with God to be circumcised, to circumcise their babies, and this covenant is sort of getting perverted here in a way. Like my daughter said, it’s like collecting collecting scalps, but way weirder, right? Like why are they gathering foreskins? Who’s in charge of doing that? How like And are they just going out and butchering like were the Philistines attacking? Was anything happening? Are they just going out and butchering Philistines of all ages, no matter what they’re doing just to collect the foreskins? It’s really, really interesting and strange. It kind of, it might be somewhat a throwback to Levi and Simeon when they slaughter the men of Chekum after they were all um circumcised. Like that’s, you know, some similarity I can find, but anyway, this is weird. right? I guess, I guess again, I’m wanting to point out we don’t want to put the house of

[00:22:49] Israel on a pedestal and think that they were some sort of ideal because they’re in the Bible. I think that would be a really, really big mistake. And all through it, I think it’s OK for us to ask the difficult questions. So anyway, David, ever the overachiever, instead of bringing back 100 Philistine Forres, he brings back 200. So, you know, you have to slaughter 100, but he goes ahead and slaughters 200 and And circumcises them and brings the foreskins back. And so he then marries Michael who loved him. Michael, and and I’m saying her name in the sort of American way, it’s Michel, but um I’ll just say it the way that I say it, um. So Michael loved David, and it’s her story is heartbreaking. So we’re going to delve into that a little bit in this episode. So, she loved David, and that’s why her father used her against him, right? And she again is treated as a commodity, like David kind of bought her from her father with the 104 skins. So she’s given to David and that very night saves his life. She warns him, she warns David that her father is trying to kill him because she’s aware that she’s being used in this way. She helps David escape. She disguises to make it not look like he’s gone. And then, so she saves David’s life and only gets to be with him for that, I don’t know, a few hours. David escapes and Michael is left to deal with the angry Saul. I mean that, yeah, Saul, the angry Saul. And I don’t know if she sees David again for a very, very, very long time. Um, it’s, it’s a, it’s a tough story. So we’re going to talk about her. Things get complicated from there, the plotting and problems continue with David and Saul, and Dave stays on the run, collecting his band of merry men. That’s how I think of them, and um, you know, all of the adventures that they have and he continually spares Saul’s life while Saul’s trying to kill him. So, um. Again, apparently Michael, who loved David and saved his life, doesn’t get to see him again through any of this, and in fact, doesn’t get to see him again until he has collected many, many wives. So in chapter 25, we learned about Abigail. Abigail the awesome. I love Abigail. If you haven’t read um Jim Farrell’s the Peace Giver, he goes, that’s where I really learned about Abigail for the first time and um I, I love her story. I think she’s amazing, but Her wicked, I won’t go into her story. You can read it in the Bible, but, um, her wicked husband Neel dies, and so David immediately sends, you know,

[00:25:27] obviously David is as impressed with Abigail as any of us are, and so I, I guess he knows to do with the woman is to marry her, so he sends for Abigail as soon as he finds out. But Neel dies and um we get to hear a bit of their story. She goes and becomes his wife, but then in the very next verse, it says, this is verse 43. David also took um ahinoum of Jezreel, and they were also both of them, his wives. So he collected two new wives, and this is a little bit complicated because Ahhinoum is the name of the only wife of Saul whose name we were given. She is called something different. Ahinuum, the daughter of Ahimaz, and um and so so it’s a little bit confusing because this is Ahinuum of the Jezreelite, the Jezreelits of the Jezreelites. So it could be a different woman. It could be the same woman because what Nathan says to um David later about I have given you your master’s wives and concubines, and if that hadn’t have been enough, I’ll give you, I would have given you more, which again we’re going to get into in the next episode. It makes it sound like um David does marry Saul’s wives and concubines, so we don’t know if that’s starting here or if this is somebody different because we’re not giving any given any information about her. So it’s very interesting. I did search the Bible. I was able to search it somewhere else and It is not a common name. There’s nobody else in the in the Bible named Ahhinuum, so we can’t just assume it’s a name that’s very common. Like there’s a Tamar in this story and a Tamar back in in the story of Judah. That doesn’t seem to be the case here. So anyway, that’s interesting. Just all of a sudden he has 2 more wives plus Michael. And in the meantime, verse 44 tells us. But Saul had given Michael, his daughter David’s wife, to Fal Fati, the son of Laish that was of Gallum. So apparently since Michael had been abandoned and Saul had this commodity that wasn’t being used, he, you know, gave her to somebody else. So, ah, that’s, it’s, it’s hard to understand how they viewed women and what Michael’s story was, right? And so. Anyway, it continues with Saul trying to kill David. David sparing Saul, right? David having victories and Saul becoming more and more desperate. And then something interesting happens in chapter 28. Um, I’m just gonna focus on this for a second because, so if you recall, um, Samuel would never again speak to Saul. He wouldn’t serve him or bring the word of God to him. And Samuel died in chapter 28, and the Philistines are attacking, attacking, and Saul, I, I have to assume in obedience to Samuel had gotten rid of all the mediums and spiritualists, the diff the. Um, different translations use the word necromancers, with wizards, those with familiar spirits and mediums and spiritualists depending on the translation. So it’s just all of that sort of, I guess we could say spiritual,

[00:28:22] anyone with spiritual powers or abilities or, you know, we separated into magic and not. So, um, I, I mean, that’s kind of the Christian viewpoint. I, I’m more curious about it. I’m like, what is this, what’s going on? Part of me. Wonders if Samuel was like, No, this is my domain, and he was getting rid of his competition. I don’t know. That’s a dark reading of it, but who knows? It’s really interesting. In any case, this is verse 5. When Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams nor by Urem nor by prophets. So Samuel had ayrman Thummim. Isn’t that interesting? So he was a seer himself, apparently. He also had dreams and he had profits or either, you know, Saul, Samuel, Saul, Saul had prophets and had the Urim and Thummim and um or or had access to people who had the Y and Thummim. I don’t know exactly how it worked. And so then said and they were all silent, he couldn’t get an answer. Then said Saul unto his servants, seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, so a medium, um. A spiritualist or in or in some other translations that I may go to her and inquire of her, and his servants went and behold, there was a woman that had the familiar spirit of Endor, the witch of Endor, who somehow had escaped Saul’s purge. So part of me wonders, and I don’t know, um. Like it’s hard for me to call her the witch of Endor because then we got to where we were burning witches at the stake, right? Many centuries later, and part of me wonders if that is just what we do and call women with spiritual gifts. I I don’t know, but it’s hard because women often, you know, can be herbalists and can have gifts of healing and all different kinds of gifts, and somehow Samuel was allowed to have those gifts, but Nobody else was, but then when Saul needs help, he finds one woman who escaped the purge and goes to her. So I think again this just is interesting questions, right? Cause Saul goes, I, if I, I’m, I’m sure I’m messing up the names continually. Sorry. But um, anyway, it’s really interesting. So she, he goes to the Witch of Endor. Disguises himself and she discerns who he is and it’s like, oh great, are you going to kill me now too? Like you have to uh everybody else who has these gifts, and he won’t kill her because now he needs her, and she, um,

[00:30:52] I don’t know if we use the word prophesy when it’s, you know, but she, she foretells, she foretells the future correctly. She gives him true prophecy and so she prophesized that he and three of his sons will die and Israel will be defeated. And that is exactly what, what happens in chapter 31. So ideally, OK, so we’re gonna just, I, there’s just a lot to explore here to bring fresh eyes too. I find myself like, I don’t know, it’s the witch of Endor is just kind of a cool term anyway that makes you go, oh, what’s that about? And now I’m really genuinely curious. So, um, anyway, I mean these are such male stories. It’s kind of cool to me to see a woman with spiritual gifts show up in this story. And I kind of wish we had more of that, right? It’s hard for me to think that she was evil. So, um, OK, anyway, ideally at this point when Saul and his sons are killed, David would have automatically be recognized and installed as king. But that did not happen at all. The kingdom was divided between Saul’s last living son, Isho Ishbosheth, um, as the king of Israel, and David as the king of Judah. So these are the same divisions we see recurring repeatedly, and they’re happening here and, um, you know, those are the same divisions that end up being final after Solomon’s death. And again, it’s, it’s really interesting because kings are dynastic, so it should have been Saul’s son, and Samuel didn’t tell anybody that he had ordained both Saul and David and set up this conflict. And so what inevitably inevitably followed was a terrible bloody years-long civil war. So they’re just like we talked about maybe after the system of judges and how we talked about. With the system system of judges that power isn’t just there for the taking. It kind of what happens with the king’s lends credibility to that. Like I think that Israel was just constantly in civil war. It’s really interesting and it seemed to be throughout David’s entire life as well, so. Um, OK, this is where now we’re in 2 Samuel chapter 3 and verses 2 to 5, we learned that David now has 6 wives, in addition to Michael, his first wife, who saved his life but was abandoned and given away to another. So we have 6 current wives and 7 wives, including Michael. So verse 2 says, and unto David, we’re born in Hebron. His first born son Amnon of Ahinoum the Jezrelitis, and the second Che Chiliab of Abigail, the wife of Nebel, the Carmelite. So those are the two wives he got in the same verse. And the 3rd Absalom, the son of Maka Maka, you, I don’t know how we see all these. I looked up some of them, the daughter of Tamai, the king of Geser, and the 4th Adinoja, the son of Haggith, and the 5th Sheptaya, the son of Abatal, and the 6th Erium by Iglid David’s wife. These were born to David and Hebron, so it could appear to us that he just had these 6 wives,

[00:33:54] but What is being told here are that these are the children he had. So it sounds to me that these are the 6 of his wives who had children while he was in Hebron, Hebron. And so, um, that’s, I think the more we learn, the more it becomes apparent that he had many wives. So I’m guessing he had more than this. These are the only ones whose names we are given. And so other than the one we’re going to cover in our next episode, his 8th named wife, wife who is Bathsheba. So I want to cover this. This is not a happy, peaceful family. Um, so we are given 6 of David’s children now. And we know the fates of at least 3 of them. In 2 Samuel 13, Amnon, the oldest son, and it would be assumed through dynastic um practice that he would be the heir as the king, right, the heir to the throne. He lusts after his half sister. This story is hard. He plots and rapes his beautiful sister Tamar, the full sister of Absalom, the 3rd born son. Um, now that story, oh God, it’s upsetting me more than I expected it to right now because I’ve already been reading through it, but it’s just so dark. It’s kind of like, I don’t know, it’s, it’s um how he plots to rape her with help is to use her um goodness against her, right? Like. Sort of like Ted Bundy forced women to choose between their compassion and their safety, he pretended to need help so that they would help him and put themselves in unsafe situations that he would then take advantage of. That is what Amnon does. He pretends to be sick. Insists that Tamar serve him, puts her in increasingly uncomfortable situations until she begs him to not rape her, and he rapes her and then afterward is as disgusted and filled with hate toward her as he was with lust toward her to begin with and kicks her out of the house and in this culture. Where the law was that the victim of a rape must be married to her rapist. Um, he, you know, in refusing to marry her, that for her is the greater affront, so it says in verse 19, and Tamar put ashes on her head and rent her garment of diverse colors that was on her. The virgin daughters of the king wore wore these um. Diverse colored cloaks and she laid her hand on her head and went on crying and then it tells us a verse later. So Tamar remained desolate in her brother Absalom’s house. That became the only thing that mattered in Tamar’s life. The only thing about her that mattered is that she was raped and then not married. So for the rest of her life, only one thing, one event in her entire life mattered, and I just think that is terrible. Terrible. And so, um, I’m glad we don’t have this culture anymore, right? Let’s not look at this culture as an excuse to have polygamy. Let’s reject this culture that would view a beautiful young woman this way and for the rest of her life she could be nothing but the victim of rape. It was then not married,

[00:37:24] and so therefore, there’s nothing for her but to remain desolate her entire life, so. OK, oh, so, um, I do want to point out that sadly this is not a terribly uncommon occurrence in polygamist families. I know that in blended families, parents need to be more careful because there is a greater risk of sexual abuse between step siblings than there would there is between full siblings, and this is also the case in polygamist families. There are many, many, many stories of girls who left. In fact, I heard one woman say. That she does not think there’s a woman who hasn’t either either um. Experienced or had a sister very close to her experience sexual assault. And so, um, so it’s something that happens that we should be aware of, right, when we’re looking at what kinds of families God would ordain. So, OK, um, let’s see, was there anything I wanted to say about that? Oh, and then I’m going to go forward with that story just a bit, but remember these names because um Three of these, well, OK, we’ll come back to those names. We’ll go forward with this story. So Absalom, he, he is, um, Tamar’s full brother, and he waits 2 years and then plots and kills Amnon for what he did to Tamar. And then he flees and is sent away. We don’t hear anything. Um, oh, he’s sent away for a couple of years. He comes back and we don’t hear anything of Abigail’s son, the second son, who you would think would be second in line to the kingdom after Amnon. And um, my, my. Chosen reading of that is that Abigail was so wise that she just removed her children from the quest for power and in doing so saved their sanity and their lives cause anyone else dies, right? They get killed. So um that’s that’s how I read it, but, but who knows, he wasn’t making a claim, but so Absalom comes back and um he is able to reunite with his father, but then he Um, he seems, oh, I didn’t look up the scriptures, so I’ll have to, darn it, I’m not gonna have it, but he is described in terms that sound like he is even more wise and more beautiful than his father, and he is setting himself up sort of as the judge in Israel. He judges the people, and he really seems to like the job and seems to be good at it and really wants the job to be official. So he starts plotting to make a play for his father’s throne, and Again, years long civil war between them we’ll go into it a little bit more, and Absalom is eventually killed, and David has to mourn. So there’s the second son, Amnan and Absalom are both killed.

[00:40:05] And then the 4th son, Adenaja, also tries to gain the throne of David, but when David is dying, he doesn’t plot against his father, just he’s kind of like, hey, I’m next in line, it should be mine. It sounds like to me. But actually, Bathsheba and Nathan intervene in their own efforts to, there’s, you know, there’s a lot of like, we want the we want the kingdom, so they do their own efforts and they convinced David to name Solomon as the successor, and then Solomon has Adenaja killed and so um. It’s, it’s really interesting, and I know there are lots of complications with these stories and who was doing what, and it’s just that. Kingdoms seem messy, right? And this kingdom is certainly no exception. So the combination of David’s polygamy and then the seeking for the kingdom ended up that 3 of those 1st 6 children were all killed either by the servants of their fathers or the servants of their brothers. It’s, it’s, it’s pretty tough. It’s pretty interesting to look at. And so, um, and again, I don’t want to do low blows, just what’s coming to mind is The sort of same succession crisis in the FLDS when um why am I not thinking of his name? The older Jeffs, the the president before um Warren Jeff’s father, when he died, you know, Warren really did a lot of plotting and moving and maneuvering to set himself up as the next prophet of God, and um, you know, it’s really interesting what people will do for power and then what they will do with that power once they get it, so. You know, I’m glad we don’t have those systems in place anymore. OK, so now we’re going to go back to Samuel 3. David has his 6 new wives and, well, has his 6 children of 6 of his wives, and at this point he wants his first wife back. So verse 14, and David sent messengers to Ishbosheth, Saul’s son, saying his, his, um, he’s anyway, they’re not killed yet, saying deliver me my wife Michael, which I espoused for me for 10 for kins of the Philistines. So part of me wishes that I could read this saying, I love Michael. I want Michael back. She’s my first wife and we love each other. But um as you go on to the story, it sounds a little more like I bought her, I want her back. She’s mine. And um, you know, we’ll soon find out how we should read that. And so we’ll get back to Michael a little bit more. The Civil War continues until Finally, Ishbosheth was assassinated and David became king of the entire kingdom. So I, yeah, Ishbosheth, I got a little confused. He is the last remaining of Saul’s sons, the one that wasn’t killed, the other three are killed. So Ishbosheth is the king of Israel, David is the king of Judah,

[00:42:51] and then two of Ishbosheth’s captains assassinate him, and now David is the king of the entire kingdom. And there’s an interesting thing about David we learned here. Um, this, the same thing happens with the Amalekite who killed Saul, actually out of mercy, Saul is begging him to kill him. He, he was shot and begged his armor bearer to kill him because he was going to be tortured by the Philistines and his armor bearer. Can’t, so Saul falls on his own sword. So the armor bearer falls on his sword. So this Amalekite, oh, it was the Amalekites that they were fighting, not the Philistines at this time. This Amalekite comes and Saul says, Please kill me, please kill me, because even falling on his sword didn’t kill him. He said, my life clings to me. And, and so the Amalekite has mercy on him and kills him and then brings word to David of what happened. But then David has him killed and, um, so. That was, that was interesting. You feel bad for this poor guy, and then these two captains of Ishbosheth bring word to David that they’ve killed him, and I don’t know if they were wicked men and plotting, but here’s what David says in response. So these men killed the, the, um, the other king who was fighting against David and enabled David to become the king of a unified Israel. But David says in verse 10, this this is 2 Samuel 4:10. When one told me saying behold, Saul is dead, think, oh, David is telling these two what he did before with his Amalekite. When one told me saying behold, Saul is dead, thinking to have brought good tidings, I took hold of him and slew him. Um, in Zil in Ziclag, who thought, who thought that I would have given him a reward for his tithing, so he thought he was bringing good news to David. David had him killed. Um, how much more than when wicked men have slain a righteous person in his own house upon his bed? These two captains killed Ishbaheth while he was on his bed. Shall I not therefore require his blood at your hands and take you away from the earth? And David commanded his young men, and they slew them and cut off their hands and their feet and hanged them up on the pool in Hebron. But they took the head of Ishbosheth and buried it in the sepulcher of Abner and Heronm. So again, it’s just there doesn’t seem to be any clear rule of law. It’s just the whims of the king of the all powerful king, and nobody knows how to predict it or what to expect. And um it seems like a very violent, difficult time to, you know, David just does what he’s gonna do for no rhyme or reason that anyone can predict. So, OK, then David goes on from there. He defeats the Philistines. He adds to the boundaries of the of Israel by conquering a new city, Jerusalem, the city of David. I didn’t realize that. It’s called the city of David. Maybe you guys knew this. It’s cool for me to learn. It’s called the city of David because David, his first act as the unified king,

[00:45:40] was to conquer that city and claim it for Israel, and that’s how they got Jerusalem. So that was interesting, um, again, boring, aggressive warfare, right? OK, and then we don’t hear anything of the reunion of Michael and David, other than that Michael’s husband that she was given to wept bitterly when she was taken away from him. He followed and weeping until he was sent away. He apparently really loved her. We don’t know, uh sorry, we don’t know if she had children she had to leave. We don’t know if she had children with that new king. And with, yeah, that she was married to another king. Um, we don’t know how she felt in any of this. We don’t know how she felt when David left and she didn’t see him when she was given to another king, when she was taken away from that king. We, we don’t know any of this, um. And so we do know that David now with multiple wives, 6 children by other wives, who knows how many wives, claims Michael back. And um so we don’t know how she feels going back either. The first time we hear from her again is when David is triumphantly bringing the ark into his newly conquered city. He offers sacrifices every 66 steps, and having put on a giant parade with all of the musicians of all kinds and the bearers of the ark, it says in 2 Samuel 6:14, David danced before the Lord with all his might, girded with a linen ehod. And then verse 16, and as the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michael, Saul’s daughter, looked through a window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, and she despised him in her heart. So we don’t get more insight into that to know what it was. I mean, I, I can imagine it’s not hard to imagine what Michael was seeing and feeling. Um, now I want to just talk briefly about the Len Lennon, if I’m saying that right, cause you’ll remember that Saul was rejected for offering a sacrifice, right? For offering supplication to the Lord when Samuel didn’t come. I, it’s, it’s, you know, there are various things about a linen Eho. Some people say that David stripped down, and that’s why Michael was angry, and, you know, and that’s kind of what she says in her words. But the thing that I think is most important about this is that the Ehod is part of the priestly apparel. So Exodus 28:3, and thou shalt speak unto. So this is when they are setting Joshua up as the priest, right? And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted whom I have filled with a spirit of wisdom. That they may make Aaron’s garments to consecrate him, that he may minister enter me in the priest’s office. I’m sorry, the making Aaron the priest. And these are the garments with which they shall make a breastplate and an efhod and a robe and a bride embroidered coat, a miter and a girdle, and they, and they shall make holy garments for Aaron, thy brother and his sons that they may minister me unto me in the priest’s office. So any time an ephod is spoken of, it is inferring the priesthood, that that is what priests wore. For example, um, there’s a story we’re going to talk about a little bit.

[00:48:48] Um, that we’ll get to, but in 1 Samuel 22:13, and Saul said unto him, oh, you know what, I guess I am telling this story right now, so we’re just gonna go over this story really quickly. Samuel, um, Saul, when Samuel refuses to speak to him and David is on the run, um, the priests of Gibea. Um, help David. They give him food and water and direction, and Saul is enraged by that. And um so he goes and has his servants kill all the priests of Gibea, well, all of the people. It’s a, it’s another genocide and Um, let’s see, even his, his priests, um, and the king said unto the footman that stood about him, Turn and slay the priests of the Lord. But their hand, um, because their hand is also with David and because they knew that he had fled and did not show me, but the servants of the king would not put forth their hand to fall upon the priests of the Lord. They would rather disobey their king who could kill them than kill the priests of the Lord, right? But the king said unto Doeg, Turn thou, and he is not. He’s an Edomite, not an Israelite. Turn thou and fall upon the priests, and Doa Doeg the Eddymite turned, and he fell upon the priests and slew in that day 40 5 persons that did wear a linen ehod. So that’s their way of saying they were a priest, right? And and there are many, many more examples of that. I just use that one because we’re going to address that story a little bit later on. So when it talks about those who wear an FA, it’s talking about priests. So, um, this is really Interesting because Saul was rejected for offering a sacrifice, but David wears the priestly raiment and then dances before the Lord leading the leading the ark, offering sacrifices every six steps. Right? Isn’t that interesting, at least, like, how does that work? What’s the comparison? So, um, anyway, we don’t know exactly what Michael was seeing. I, I, I definitely have my thoughts of what it was, but in any case, Michael, who I like, she is apparently not yet versed in the subtle art of being a plural wife. She hasn’t been indoctrinated with the keep sweet doctrine. And she dares give David a piece of her mind, and actually she speaks truth to him. What she says is powerful, so this is 2 Samuel 6:20. Then David returned to bless his household, and Michael, the daughter of Saul, came out to meet David and said, How glorious was the king of Israel today, who uncovered himself today in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants. As one of his vain fellows shamelessly uncoveth himself, so what it sounds like to me is that she is accusing him not only of incredible vanity, but of

[00:51:37] basically his infidelities. Like, so now you’re being naked in front of all of the servants everywhere. That’s, that’s how I’m reading this. I would love to know your thoughts. You don’t have to agree with my reading just as I get into it. She is angry that he’s, you know, I, I think of her. Like loving him, thinking that they were getting married, saving his life, and then learning that he’s like sleeping with everyone, taking everyone as a wife, right? And his response isn’t very helpful, and David said unto Michael, It was before the Lord which chose me before the Father and before all of his house to appoint me ruler over all the people of the Lord over Israel. Thereforefore, will I play before the Lord. So he sets himself up, Hey, God ordained me over everyone, and I wasn’t trying to be naked in front of other people. I was doing it in front of the Lord. And then he continues, and I will be, and I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in my own sight and of the maidservants which thou have spoken of, of them shall I be had in honor. So he’s like, Oh, you think this is something? Oh, I can do way worse than this. And guess what? All of the maids are going to be smitten with me and love me, right? That’s what I get that he’s saying here. Therefore, ah, Michael, the daughter of Saul, had no children unto the day of her death. So she’s punished heavily for daring to speak to David, um, in this way. So the heartbreaking story, this young, innocent, naive girl in love with this beautiful man who kind of used her and then abandoned her when, yeah, you know, I don’t know if he intentionally did, but he certainly collected, he didn’t have a faithful heart in any way. And then collected many other wives and then left her unloved childless because she dared tell him the truth. It doesn’t sound like. She was able to go marry somebody else. She just remained childless the rest of her life. So, um, Michael is mentioned one time later on in rather unthinkable circumstances. Now I’m not sure if this is an error and if it’s supposed to be talking about Marra, her older sister, or if it is about Michael. So in 2 Samuel 21, David, there’s a famine and David prayed to know the cause of the famine, and this is where we harking back to where um Saul slew the priests of Gibea. Um, David is given the answer or imagines the answer, whatever the case may be, that it’s because of um of Saul slaying those who were who wore Fods in Gib Ga. And so David goes to the people that were left and asks how he can make it up to them, and they say they want. Seven of Saul’s sons or descendants so that they can hang them. And um incredibly with no bargaining or options or other offers or efforts at peacemaking, David agrees. And so this is 2 Samuel 21:6. Let seven men of his sons be delivered unto us and we will hang them into the Lord and Gibea.

[00:54:38] And so anyway, I’m going to skip forward because this is long, but um. Let’s see, but the king took two of the sons of Rizpa, the daughter of Aya, so that was Solomon’s um concubine, and she only had 2 sons of Saul, and those two were given, and then the 5 sons of Michael, the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel, the son of that, the son of, and then it tells who he is now. Michael, remember we’re told is childless, and it’s actually her sister who is married to Adriel and so whose sons these would be, but it says that Michael brought them up for him. So I’m I find myself wondering if maybe Marab died and Michael raised those children of her own. In any case, David gives those children of either Marab or Michael and of Rizpa to be sacrificed, and they’re powerless to do anything about it and um. Find that to be a tough story as well. And um, so anyway, he doesn’t give the the grandson of John of Saul through Jonathan’s son. He saves him because he said that he would, but um, so, OK, there’s a lot more to this story. This is already too long. It’s just a messy, messy story dealing with concubines and many other things. So, um, it is, I just want to read a couple of verses cause it’s that make it more clear that he had collected more wives than just the 8. Um, well, the eight, including Bathsheba, who will get to, and David perceived that the Lord had established him king over Israel and that he had exalted his kingdom for his people’s sake, and David took him more concubines and wives out of Jerusalem after he was come from Hebron, and there were yet sons and daughters born to David. So that’s after his victorious stance after, you know, when he comes into Jerusalem, which he has conquered, he takes plenty more wives and concubines and um. And then skipping forward in chapter 16, when Absalom makes his play for the kingdom, David has 10 concubines that he leaves alone at the palace, and when Absalom comes and takes, and they, and they flee the rest of Jerusalem, flee, and Absalom comes to the palace, and I’ll just read these couple of verses. Um, let’s see, and, and Absalom’s adviser told him, Go and then to thy father’s concubines which he hath left there to keep the house, and all Israel shall hear that thou art abhorred of thy father. Then shall the hands of all that are with thee be strong. So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house, and Absalom went in unto his father’s concubines in the sight of all Israel. So, um, and then anyway, so that’s how women were treated and viewed and valued and how much self um how much empowerment they had to make their own decisions, right? So these 10 concubines are used again in the war, I guess 2 Samuel 20 3, I guess this is David’s mercy. It says, and David came to his house at Jerusalem. This is after Abslam has been killed and they’re coming back. And the king took the 10 women, his concubines whom he had left to keep house, and put them in ward to and fed them,

[00:57:40] but when not in unto them, so they were shut up unto the day of their death, living in widowhood. So that was, that was their fate. So all of this is so messy, right? And um. From all of these stories, again, I just think it’s important to recognize that the central theme that I keep taking is a combination of things. First is gratitude for The better ideas, better culture, better forms, forms of government, and better societies that we have today than they did in the past. I know it’s easy, especially as a mom trying to raise children to think, oh, this world is so wicked and so messed up, but this is good to give me centered again to go, you know what, the world was wicked and messed up then, and I would rather be a mother raising my children now a million times than back then. And um, so you know it’s, I think it’s good for us to approach these stories with kind of that discerning eye so that we can discern. The problems and and try to find better ideas and discern and choose better ideas for our society so that we can have better societies. Another thing that I want to point out is this that goes along with this. The Old Testament is really a remarkably sophisticated book. We might want to come to it expecting to find heroes and villains, black and white figures, the good and the bad, but it does not, it does not allow that. If we give it an honest reading, I think that we often Try to have that approach so much that we explain away everything that Samuel does and that David does, saying it was good and everything that Saul does was bad cause we’re trying to see these figures in the black and white terms. But it’s important for us to recognize Saul and David, like Samuel, all prophesized for the Lord. They were all given new hearts. They were all powerful servants and prophets of the Lord who also. did things wrong, right? All, all of them, and so we don’t get to see it as a book of heroes and villains. We get to see it as a book of flawed individuals. Which makes it that much more valuable because that’s what each of us are, right? I think of the um quote that Jordan Peterson quotes all the time. He quotes Dostoyevsky saying the line between good and bad does not go between societies or between people. It goes down the middle of the heart of every human being. And I think that that is so true. What we can take from this is to see what temptation does, what righteousness does, what sin does, and we can see how Everyone had good and bad in them and recognized that in ourselves. And just like we’re trying to choose the best ideas for our society, try to choose the best parts of ourselves, recognize how each of us has infinite potential for good and for evil and to try to make those choices in that way. So I apologize for another long episode next episode, if you can only listen to one on David, listen to the next episode, because that’s what we’re really getting into the heart of the story of Bathsheba and lust and what. Polygamy or monogamy really means for a man. So anyway, thank you so much for sticking with me again and I will see you next time.