Please consider supporting this podcast:

So often our testimonies in the church are built up with if-then statements and formulas. It may not be until our foundations are questions that we realize they are built upon sand and we are in danger of the domino effect when we start using critical thinking and exploring truth. Does this all or nothing approach serve us well? Does it need to be this way? I address a listener’s message on this topic and share some of my personal experiences struggling through the unsettling question of “What does this mean?”

Links

Stake Conference Talk

Summary

In this episode, Michelle Stone responds to a listener’s message about the struggle of reconciling faith with the problematic history of Mormon polygamy, particularly regarding Doctrine & Covenants 132. The discussion explores the “domino effect” that questioning one aspect of LDS doctrine can have, leading to deeper theological uncertainties about Joseph Smith, prophetic authority, and the truthfulness of the LDS Church as a whole.

Key Themes:

  1. The Listener’s Faith Struggle and the Domino Effect
    • A listener, Alicia, shares her struggles with rejecting polygamy as divinely inspired and the resulting crisis of faith.
    • She questions whether Joseph Smith was deceived, if he was still a true prophet, and how rejecting one part of LDS doctrine affects belief in the rest.
    • Stone acknowledges this common struggle among questioning LDS members, calling it the house of cards effect, where one doctrinal doubt leads to potential collapse of an entire belief system.
  2. Breaking Down the LDS Testimony Framework
    • Traditional LDS teachings often tie together multiple beliefs:
      • If the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith was a prophet.
      • If Joseph Smith was a prophet, then all LDS prophets must be inspired.
      • If modern prophets are inspired, then LDS doctrine—including polygamy—must be correct.
    • Stone challenges this rigid framework, encouraging listeners to separate their faith in God from institutional loyalty.
  3. Personal Experience: Rebuilding Faith on a Firmer Foundation
    • Stone shares her own struggles with shifting faith, emphasizing that personal spiritual experiences should be the foundation, not institutional claims.
    • She encourages a faith based on truth and love rather than blind obedience.
    • She recalls a spiritual epiphany, where she realized that God is constant, but institutions can be flawed.
  4. The Role of Doubt in Spiritual Growth
    • Stone reframes faith crises as spiritual growing pains rather than failures.
    • She describes faith transitions as stepping off a shaky foundation (a “house of cards”) and onto bedrock—a process that may be painful but ultimately leads to greater understanding.
    • She highlights 2 Nephi 28-29, which warns about false traditions and emphasizes personal revelation.
  5. Challenges in the LDS Church Structure
    • Stone recounts personal experiences of church exhaustion, including:
      • Overwhelming callings while raising a large family.
      • Frustration with LDS leadership discouraging independent thought.
      • A traumatic church disciplinary meeting where her temple recommend was threatened for sharing an alternative interpretation of Lot’s Wife.
    • She identifies these experiences as spiritual abuse and critiques the culture of control within the LDS hierarchy.
  6. Jesus as a Model: Staying in the Church but Not Submitting
    • Stone shares a spiritual insight about Jesus’ relationship with the Jewish religious system—he remained part of it but refused to submit to its corruption.
    • She applies this lesson to her decision to remain in the LDS Church while rejecting harmful doctrines and cultural norms.
  7. Final Thoughts: Individual Spiritual Journeys
    • Stone urges listeners to seek personal revelation rather than relying solely on LDS leadership.
    • She acknowledges that staying or leaving the church is a deeply personal decision, and there is no single correct answer.
    • She emphasizes gratitude for the positive aspects of church membership while acknowledging the institutional flaws.

Transcript

[00:00:01] Welcome to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon Polygamy, where we explore the scriptural and theological case for plural marriage. Please remember to listen to these episodes in order, if at all possible, starting with the beginning and continuing on from there as they all are designed to hopefully build on each other in important ways. My name is Michelle Stone, and this is episode 19, where I’ll address a comment from a listener struggling with the difficult question of what does this all mean? Something I think many of us can relate to. Thank you for joining us as we take a deep dive into the murky waters of Mormon polygamy. First of all, I want to thank all of those who have commented, especially all of those who have shared this series. It means so much to me, and I really appreciate, um, that vote of confidence and seeing the audience grow and hopefully knowing that, um, people find this valuable and think that others might as well. So please. If you feel so inclined, please do share. And also, I love hearing your feedback and your comments. And, um, it helps me keep this all going. I also so deeply have to thank the following listeners, Callie, Tara, Rachel, Adam, and Nicole. Um, you guys are my first Patreon supporters, my first patron patrons, and, um, it means so much to me. Thank you very much. That was very humbling and, um, quite overwhelming actually to see people being willing to support and help this podcast. So thank you. Um, I’m still needing, I’m still needing a little more help each month to be able to afford some help in my home, which is my goal so that I can keep doing this, um, because I really Enjoy it and really feel good about doing it, but it is a heavy load. So, um, the Patreon link is below, if anyone else would like to contribute. And, um, those who have contributed or who do and want to contribute, I would love your feedback about any, um, my son told me that there should always be like special events or different things. For patrons. So please let me know what, um, what things you would appreciate, and I would be happy to try to put some things together. So thank you so much. OK, so as I have said many times, I really appreciate, um, comments and feedback from listeners. And I want to read a comment that was sent to me, um, I think a week ago or so. And, um, I’m going. Going to read it and just, um, take out the last name, but I, I have permission and I want to address what is asked in this, um, comment because I think it’s probably a very common struggle for many of us. This is, this is what it says. Hi,

[00:02:46] Michelle. My name is Alicia. I’ve watched all of your YouTube videos and I’m so grateful for all you do, all you have done putting those together. I have struggled with the concept of section 132 for as long as I can remember, and I’m finding myself settling on the idea that it was not at all called of God. However, that leaves me in a very confusing place with the domino effect of one of 132 isn’t true, then was Joseph deceived? If so, if so, was he still a true prophet? And then what about all the rest? I’m trying to keep hold of my faith in the church, but can’t seem to find a peaceful place to land where 132 is wrong, which I’m feeling more and more sure of. Then can the rest be true? I’d love your advice and maybe some resources. The deeper I get into this, it seems the more confused I am. Where out outwardly Joseph and everyone seemed to publicly deny polygamy but practiced it in private. I’m trying to sift through a myriad of accounts and resources, which you seem to have already done. She goes on to some personal details. She has a Big family, a big young family, they homeschool full time, so I relate to this mom. So she says, so my study time is difficult and sporadic. I’m so conflicted. I know that I’ll probably never get clear, undeniable evidence either way, but I’m searching for peace in the murkiness. Any help you could give me would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Oh, this comment, I wanted to read it because I’m sorry, I didn’t correct it and, um, I got a little mixed up in it, but I think, I hope you get the point, and it hits so just it it just right on the bull’s eye of what I think so many of us struggle with. So, um, I contacted Alicia, Alicia and asked her if it would be all right if I read it and addressed it for a broader audience rather than just for her, and she, um, was very open to that. So thank you, Alicia, for the comment and for your willingness to share. So I’m guessing that many, many can share this. And, um, This, this um episode today is less formatted and laid out. I’m just trying to pray and go with my heart and just share what comes. So I’m sure I’ll leave some things out and um if I get anything anyway, I’m hoping that something I say from my experiences will be useful to some of you and This episode, even more than others, I think is useful to have an open dialogue and discussion. So I would love your feedback and your comments and so that we can address these things together, cause I think they’re important. I do really relate to the domino effect she talked about. I grew up being taught explicitly, if this, then this, right? If the Book of Mormon was true, then Joseph Smith was a prophet, then everything that our leaders say and do is correct, then, you know, and, and it goes in different orders in different ways, but it’s all very much tied together. In one package that I now, she talked about the domino effect. I now think of it as a house of cards that we have carefully established this house of cards, and if one gets pulled out, then what happens to all of them?

[00:05:43] That’s something I really relate to. And so I want to share a couple of experiences I’ve had, cause I’ve been on this journey for many years working through these things. And so hopefully, um, I know many of you could share many insightful, useful things with me, but I’m hoping that something I can share might might be useful as well. So Um, I want to just tell a couple of different experiences. There’s so much to say on this topic. So, and, and, and I do acknowledge very much that addressing polygamy honestly opens up other theological questions and challenges that I think are important and valid to work through, and many of which I hope to address in this series. Um, interesting to me, I have found as I have searched and studied more and more that many of the things that I consider to be False traditions, um, which the Book of Mormon talks much about and all scripture does. I think many of them actually grew out of polygamy, some of the most central ones that, um, that have become central to the teachings that we have been given, but that I believe are. Not necessarily directly of God. Um, anyway, so some of those things I think are important to address and to work through. So we’ll get to those in future episodes. But I wanted to share, so when my four oldest kids were all teenagers, my oldest was probably 16, and I, um, I used to really ask what they learned about at church, you know, I, I, I still do with my kids quite a bit cause I, you know, sometimes they’re taught ideas that I don’t necessarily agree with. And so they all had had a lesson where they were taught the importance of having a testimony in of Joseph Smith. And at the time that just struck me as so Backwards, so putting the cart before the horse, you know, the whole, the whole lesson was focused on, you need a testimony of Joseph Smith, so that, you know, so that we can build the house of cards on that. And I, first of all was just like, no, our testimony is in God. Our testimony is, is starts with the foundation of our experiences with God, and then extends from our knowledge of the existence of God to The reality of Jesus Christ as our Savior, again, through experiences that we have that are become our anchor, right? That sure foundation of Christ. And then if as we read the book of Mormon, we receive revelation and we feel the spirit and we feel the The confirmation of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, those are the for me those are the steps, and then if all of those are in place, then OK, then I guess Joseph Smith was a prophet. Does that make sense? It’s not that Joseph Smith is at the bottom of this, and you can’t start with the end in mind. I just, it all hit me as like so backward and that we were setting up these really Fragile sandy foundations, this house of cards testimony that because I had been struggling through it going, this is the problem. Like for me, this is the problem. So,

[00:08:39] so in that moment, I just had the most clear awareness of what I wanted to teach my children was you take truth in this hand and you take love in this hand. You live like you, I, I just wanted to teach them live lives where you value and seek truth and where you value and seek love, where those are the things you want. Take one of those in each hand and go. Like, go study. I’m not gonna tell you the answer of that life quest. Like that’s for you to learn and you to discover. I will certainly tell you the things that I have experienced that have given me my foundation of what I consider to be true. And where the source of love in my life comes from. But, um, but I’m not gonna tell you where you have to arrive on your journey and then expect that to be a foundation for you. I don’t know if that makes sense. I hope that it does. Again, I, I really prefer conversations over monologues. So this is a little hard for me because I can’t clarify everything, especially with these difficult ideas, but I remember that distinctly, and that’s one thought I had in this comment is like, oh, it’s so unfortunate that we have been given this. This sandy foundation to build our testimonies on because I think we see all around it’s shaking out. So that was my first thing, and I really think I, I, I, my mind hasn’t changed on that. That’s really been a clarity that I was thankful for that I feel like came through inspiration like truth and love are our guideposts and our anchors, and we go, we seek with open hearts and open minds to know what God will teach us. And um and I think that that’s That’s something that we can do to help our children and those that we have influence over to not have such a difficult time with the shifting sound. That’s one thing I mentioned briefly in the last episode, and I’ll get to it actually in another episode. I won’t go in to it today, but Second Nephi 28 and 29, where it talks about um those that are built upon the sand will tremble lest they shall fall. And it just made me so aware. I’ve, I’ve thought about that quite a bit actually, cause I think that when we’re on the foundation of the rock, cause I have experienced this. I have experienced like everything falling out from beneath me and not knowing what to rely on and what was true and having everything break down and you feel like you are free floating. And it’s um. It’s terrifying. It’s, I mean, your whole foundation is gone, and what does this mean for my life and how do I get my bearings again to even proceed in life, right? And um, what I realized in that experience though was that I, I like if I have a floor of my box that I’m standing on, there’s also a ceiling, and so being in that safe little box might give me, might make me feel comfortable that I have sure footing, but it also has a ceiling on me that Makes it so I can’t learn as much, right? It limits the truth that I can receive or be open to. So while it is um a very unsettling and terrifying experience, I also think It is a very important part of our individual spiritual progression and growth to come to know God more and more because when the floor falls away, the ceiling comes off too, and we are open to so much more insight,

[00:12:01] revelation, direction from the Lord, and um. And you know, when we already know all the answers, we’re not asking the questions and we’re not open to the answers of the questions, right? And we also are not needing to desperately rely on God. Like, God help me, lead me, direct me, teach me the truth and teach me what is true because I don’t have all of my easy answers anymore. So I, so I want to acknowledge that that is a very Unsettling, difficult, scary place, but I also have come to think of it as a sacred sacred place to be. So for me, when that happens, because it continues to happen, I continue to need to shake out more sand from my foundation. I now Um, yeah, I’m not saying it’s easy or even fun, but it is something that I feel thankful for. I feel such closeness to God. So I want to hopefully calm people’s mind that if you’re starting to feel that unsettled feeling, that’s not a bad thing and it’s not. The shut down because more learning always requires letting go of some of the false ideas that we had before and you know, and when I’ve thought about it as well, when we’re founded on the rock of Christ, cause I have felt like, yeah, you do feel like you’re free free falling. And but then you settle on bedrock. Things like you get to a point where you’re like, this I know for sure. I know this for sure. And for me it started out with a really little list of things I knew for sure from my own personal experience, and it’s grown from there. And it’s also been nice actually to go, you know what, I don’t know that for sure. I don’t, I’m not certain about. Many of the things that I thought I was certain about, but I’m open to learning more and I have the ideas that I lean toward and that I like and there’s just something very beautiful to being open to learning more. I think it is in a way the opposite of pride because when I thought I knew everything, I think I was much more prideful cause I thought I knew everything, right? So it was much harder for the Lord to teach me more. So it’s OK to not have all the answers, but what I have found is that when I’m in sand. I can’t maneuver, right? Like I sink into my ankles and I can’t turn, I can’t look from different perspectives, and so my tendency might be to get defensive, to fight, to argue my point, right? Whereas if I’m on bedrock, I could walk around easily and it’s much easier for me in this place to look at different ideas and go, oh, that’s really interesting. Oh, I can see why you think that that’s a really good thing I should consider. I, I think of it this way, you know, it’s like the like the Lord tells us contention is not of the Lord,

[00:14:39] and we have a tendency to think that means that the opposite of contention is agreement, is like that unity means sameness. And I really don’t believe that anymore. I think the opposite of contention is openness and humility and Being OK with people seeing things differently than we do, right, because the fact is God made us all really different. God gives us all very different experiences, and Zion, I have come to so strongly believe Zion is not a place where we’re all the same, where we all have the same weaknesses, and I mean, I mean the same strengths and talents and the same perspectives on things and all of the same ideas. That isn’t how God made us. Zion is a place where with all of our differences we come together in love and Lack of judgment and lack of contention, right? I think that that’s an important thing for us to do, and I think it’s hard for us to do that while there’s still sand in our foundation. And so we are trembling like, no, I’m gonna fight against that because you’re threatening my sandy foundation. I, I really think that that’s a Important perspective. So if you are feeling some of these things, my, my take on it is welcome that and just strive to stay close to God through it. Cause that was one of my things I knew for sure. I’ve had too many experiences to ever doubt the existence of God. I know God, I know the voice of God. I know the goodness of God. I know the love of God. I didn’t know at all the actual identity of God. Like I had to go, I don’t know what this. Power in the universe is, but I know that it is all wise and all loving. I know that it is good and great, right? And then I have built from there with further experiences, but that’s how far I broke down. I had to break things down. So anyway, I just, I just think cling to what you do know. I guess President Odorf stated in a, in a way of saying, doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. And I might state it a little differently, which is just be willing to look for what you know for sure is true, and then be open to let to building, building from that, right? That’s, that’s one thing I think. So maybe I went too far into that. I didn’t plan to. What I actually wanted to talk about was another experience I had. Sorry, I’m Making sure I’m not leaving anything out. But I want to, I want to tell an experience I had that I think gets to the heart of this. And as I said, we will continue to address these questions going forward, and I really do appreciate, I’m sorry, I keep saying the same thing, but really, let me know your thoughts and feedback so that um we can address these things and have a conversation. Um, OK, so I am going to just be really vulnerable here and tell some of my experiences specifically with the church and um and some of the things that That I have experienced that would, if I went back and told myself before these things happened to where I would be, I would be shocked and appalled, right? So if, if, so I know there are all different ways to hear these things. Some people might think

[00:17:36] I’m just crazy and that’s OK. Some people might think, yeah, I’ve had those same experiences. That’s wonderful. So I’m just going to share some of my So I um when I had 6 children, I was in a ward and I had 4 heavy callings at the same time. I’m just giving little snippets of different things. There have been so many things that have happened, right, but We all have so many experiences in the church. Might have been um interesting in some specific ways, but I was serving in four big callings. I was the Cubb committee, um, the Cub Scout Committee chair. I went, which means going to powwows and going to all of the activities and planning the blue gold bank, right? It was a big calling. I was the young women’s athletic director. I Also, it was at the time when they were changing to, um, the new enrichment nights. They were changing from that or to that or something. Anyway, so I was put in charge single-handedly of a monthly relief society meeting on motherhood. So I was basically kind of planning an enrichment night by myself without my committee. And then I also, oh, I had one other calling that I’m not remembering, in addition to visiting teaching, and then also it was a, um, It was a ward with there was there were a lot of affluent people in the wards. There was a lot of travel and I had a lot of children, so every single week I was called by at least 2 or 3 teachers to substitute primary. So I was teaching primary every single week and doing, I wish I could remember what the 4th calling was. It was, it was hard and It broke me. I, um, you know, I was, I was in the perspective of you accept callings, you say yes, you serve, you, you know, and I was homeschooling my 6 children. I mean, my youngest was a baby. I, during that time with the stress I was experiencing, I had a miscarriage or two. I like it just was a really hard time and um. And, and so anyway, I can’t remember exactly why I’m going into that other than I, I know at one point a member of the Bishopric called me and got after me about something that had happened with the blue and gold basefoot and was really quite aggressively. Angry at me and I just broke down and started crying. I was like, do you realize what the church is doing to me? Like, you know, and it was just a misunderstanding. It actually wasn’t even, it was something that had happened with someone else with the blue and gold that I was feeling unfairly accused of, but anyway, in any case, it was like, I, this isn’t right, like I felt so strongly. Like I was not able to be a good mom to my children because the church felt like a burden, far more than a blessing. My um my,

[00:20:04] you know, I was trying to, I when you’re a younger mom, some of you will understand I was trying to raise my children so carefully and I didn’t feed them sugar, and they would go to and I didn’t have them watch movies, we would read more cause we were homeschooling, you know, so they would go to primary and The particular teachers they had several of them would just feed them candy and let them watch videos for primary every week, so it was like, what are we doing? And then um anyway, and then they were playing video games at the Cub Scouts that my sons were going to that I wouldn’t have wanted them playing, so I just was like, like there’s, it’s so hard, it’s so hard. So that was one snippet and You know, things improved from there, but then I went on to other times. I think that many um many of us can relate to the exhausted LDS faithful LDS mother, right? I guess it’s a syndrome, can I call it a syndrome. Um, I, several years later, I was expecting my, um, let’s see, he’s my 10th, and, um, my 4 teenagers were going on young men and young women’s camps and also Pioneer Trek, and there were many other things my husband. was employed. I was supposed to outfit these 4 kids for Pioneer Trek. I was due with a baby. I, I, I mean, it just, there were other things going on too, and it, it’s just so hard. It’s so hard to do. Even I got to the point where just on Saturday nights, I would just break down at the thought of. Getting all of my things for my lesson and all of my kids ready, finding all of their shoes, getting them all to church with all of the things they needed, you know, making sure that we had the primary talks done and that I had my lesson ready to go, and it just got hard, hard, hard, hard, hard, and um I was in that place for a while and at the same time. I just, I have always loved the scriptures very much. I was just delving into the scriptures and I was finding the more I stick the scriptures, the more things I saw that were different than what I was being taught at church, or what my children were being taught at church. I just couldn’t. And I also, I was in desperate need of spiritual enrich nourishment, and I would go to church and I wouldn’t receive it, and that was so hard for me. My feeling was like. If this is God’s true church, and these are the covenant people and the priesthood holders and all if all of these things we claim are true, then this should be like God’s A-team and that hour that we have for gospel doctrine to discuss the scriptures should be this sacred amazing time. And, you know, I would always read through the lesson in advance and have these insights that I was so excited to share and wanted to hear other people’s insights. I was desperate. For spiritual nourishment at church and I did not feel like I was getting it. I would just come home crying week after week because

[00:23:02] not only was I not being nourished by other people’s thoughts, my thoughts weren’t even wanted or welcome. We just wanted to sit and, you know, like we weren’t, I didn’t feel like we were interested in learning and seeking and growing and it was really hard for me to To figure that out. And so anyway, I was in that place for quite a few years and then I started to learn more and more things in the scriptures that just caused me more and more challenges like how I, I felt like we aren’t understanding what this is really about, what the gospel is really about. I’m being really vulnerable here. Please forgive me. I’m not going to go into too many details. But anyway, I had a period finally at one point, cause I just struggled and had so many questions and so many of, well, several of the teachings that we were given, I found through my study in the scriptures and my interactions with the Lord and the Spirit. I was like, I don’t think that’s true. I, I and I think that’s a dangerous idea. I think like I guess for me, one that we will address in a future episode, but one was the idea that. That our church leaders can never lead us astray. The the president, the prophet can never lead us astray, which I felt like was expanded into everything the church leaders ever say or do is good and is right, and we’re not allowed to question, you know, the statements I’ve heard of when the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done, and those were some of the things that I most was like. I don’t want, I don’t think God wants anyone put on pedestals. Moses, like I, I, I view true prophets just like mothers, like a, a true parent’s role, their job is to work themselves out of a job in a way, right? Like, I mean, you’ll always be your mom to your kids and they’ll always need you, but your goal is to make them independent of you where they’ll be OK without you cause eventually they’ll be without you and And I kind of felt like that’s like Moses didn’t want to go on the mountain alone and see God and come tell all the people what God said. Moses said would that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and Moses wanted all of the people to come up on the mountain and meet God. And when I have felt Given a message by God to share my like I, I have just really felt like, oh, I’m such a, I have to put it in my words and I’m gonna like I, I just want people to get the pure thing from God that I got that can then go through, you know, cause I don’t want it to have to filter through my filter and come out. Not perfect from God and, and so, so always I think when we have experiences with God, our desire is to tell people, hey, we can have experiences with God, right? And and and so that became my view of prophets is like we shouldn’t set people on pedestals above us. We should follow examples that are useful to us to, that’s that’s how I started to see the Book of Mormon in particular. It is a series of Prophets teaching us by example and precept how to come into the presence of God. That’s what the, that’s what the gospel is.

[00:26:06] That’s what the scriptures are. That’s what the plan is. That’s how we overcome death. And, you know, anyway, sorry, I’m going on and on in circles, but I came to see it this way and it, I really struggled with some of these ideas. And so, anyway, going on forward from there, I came to a point finally where I just kind of felt. Um, I guess it was during conference and I heard something said that really felt, I knew that the scriptures they were referring to, and I felt like they were being taken out of context and being said to say the opposite of what they said, which isn’t an uncommon thing that happens. And just some of the things said felt not true to me and also like the opposite of helpful, like it was like, oh this is gonna cause these problems and these problems with different people I knew, different people in my In my realms and my family, you know, and I, I was struggling with that and just really praying with it and I just kind of felt, I guess the, the visual that I sometimes receive inspirations for, you know, in a visual way as part of it, and I just kind of felt this decoupling, like a train decoupling, and the Lord just said, like the Lord just let me know that my eternal salvation was not dependent on an institution. I know that sounds like a radical thing to say, but that was what I was just, it was just this knowledge that poured out over me. And I still had many questions, and, you know, and it might be that I was told that because of what the Lord needed me, that the Lord needed me to believe for what was coming for me. But that was my personal experience. And so a little while after that, um, I had an experience where a few times ago I shared the things I had learned about Lot’s wife, and, um, I just had this. Period where I just was feeling I didn’t know what it was or what it was about, but I felt like I need to write some things and I started to just, it wasn’t, it wasn’t about lots act I as that, but it was, I just started to learn about the savior and how sort of how we are in partnership with the savior. Any suffering that we alleviate is suffering that the savior doesn’t have to experience, right? Any suffering that we cause is suffering that we caused directly to the savior and I, I, I had come across the quote of Elder Maxwell that he said perhaps there is a literalness to this about the scripture that in as much as you have done it unto the least of these, my brethren, you’ve done it unto me and I these ideas were just Just so, I was gonna say weighing on me, but it wasn’t a weight. They were just filling me and I just felt this strong inspiration that I needed to start writing them and I didn’t know why. So I was, and it was interesting because that started at the beginning of the week and I think on Thursday night my husband came home from coaching soccer and said, hey, I ran into a member of our bishopric and we’ve been asked to speak in church on Sunday. I was like, oh, I guess that’s what it’s for. And then um and then the next day, I think on Friday evening they called with our topic which was President Ukor’s talk of the savior has no hands but ours about the statue with its hands being blown out off during World War II,

[00:29:08] the statue of Christ, they decided not to um replace the hands and I was like, OK, perfect, right? Like that’s exactly what I’m, what I’ve been feeling so it felt very inspired to me and um. And as I was preparing that, I had this, I had this strong impression of there’s something about the stake, which immediately was followed with, you’re going to be speaking in state conference, and I have learned through experience that whenever there’s an impression that feels true, but also feels maybe grandiose or, you know, like, like, oh, that makes me feel important whenever I, I, I just I’m kind of like, OK, I will file that away in case I ever need it, but I’m certainly not gonna think about that. But anyway, I did have that answer and And then right after that I had the strong impression that I needed to include a little bit of Lot’s what I had learned about Lot’s wife at the end of my story, just and and at the end of my talk and um and so I just included it for like maybe a minute and a half at the end of the talk and And I just, um, anyway, we went on Sunday and it was actually a beautiful meeting. There were, it was one of those meetings, my husband and I both spoke and you know, I, I think because I’d been so inspired with the ideas I had shared that it was one where there were tearful hugs after and, you know, it seemed to resonate with a lot of people in a way I was thankful for, um. At the end of my talk, I did just say and I said very carefully, I guess I’m feeling insecure to share what happened, so I have to like share my perspective cause it seems so weird. But and at the end of the talk I had said, I apologize that this is a unconventional, um, you know, take on this story, but I felt like I should share it, and I just shared my perspective on Lot’s wife cause there are so many mothers struggling in the church, right, with and and just just compared how a pillar of salt and what I thought that that meant and anyway. So it was really interesting because when I had had that impression of there’s something about the steak, and when I came in there were several sisters from the steak. There was, there’s a group that sings together that their husbands are all like the bishops or the high council or the um state presidency, and they, they sing together at times. And so they had um they were coming to sing at our ward. So when I walked in and saw the state president’s wife sitting there and and others, it, it just felt like a confirmation to me, right? And so I gave my talk and thought everything was fine. And then to my surprise, I can’t remember if it was the next day or if it was a week later, but I know it was on Monday. Um, I was called by the bishop and asked to meet with him in his office, and I didn’t know what it was about. And apparently, the, the, as I understand it from a few different sources that were involved, the state president’s wife had been very upset by my talk and was angry that the bishop hasn’t told me to sit down and corrected what I said.

[00:32:01] Um, I was so surprised, and the bishop was really surprised in that first meeting. This was a different bishop than the one that I had talked about with my home birth. This was another bishop and um and he seemed surprised at that first meeting, and he told me that he had been told by the state presidency that he needed to consider revoking my temple recommend. And I was shocked. I was shocked and appalled and um I, I, I couldn’t understand it. I had had my temple recommend interview probably 4 months before that, and because of my perspective on not wanting to put leaders on pedestals and like, you know, I, I kind of explained my perspective of like the primary president is given. Keys to the primary closet. No one else gets in those keys and we do all we can to sustain her and help her, right? When I serve in the primary as the primary president, that’s my role. But I would never claim that I’m infallible or that everything I do is exactly what God would do, right? I, I try to do my best, but I certainly take feedback. And, um, and that kind of was my perspective on the leaders of the church. Like they have keys and they have the stewardship to make decisions and direct this church, and I want to do everything I can to help them. But I’m uncomfortable saying everything they do is always correct, because if we know very much at all about church history, we know that’s not true. Anyway, so I didn’t go into it uh nearly that much, but I kind of when we had talked about my sustaining of profits, I said yes I do and and we just talked a little bit about what that meant. And to me it means I look to them, I pray for them, I want to do all I can to make to help and support them in their calling. But part of what I see as sustaining, well, I didn’t even go into this. I, I, I have thought of it since, like, when I sustained my husband or when he sustains me, I don’t think I’d be a very good wife if I always was like, oh yes, dear, everything you do is perfect, right? Sometimes I need to push back and and say, hey, I think we should think about this, right? Like that’s how you support one another is also helping each other be our best. Anyway, I didn’t go into that, but I just kind of had expressed that perspective. So I guess that I didn’t know at the time, but Elder Holland had recently given a talk called Remember Lot’s Wife, and he didn’t say anything definitively, but he didn’t have the same take I did. So I guess it was maybe threatening that I had a different perspective. Sorry, I’m going into way too much detail, but um it was a traumatic time. So the bishop called me back into his office and for the second meeting he had had, he had received more training and in the first meeting he was kind of overwhelmed. He said, you know, he was surprised, he was humble.

[00:34:41] He said he had talked to All of his counselors and his wife and had felt like, did you sense anything wrong? And they all had said no, you know, but he’d received more training. I came back in the following Thursday and he wanted to meet with my husband and me, and it was a very, very different meeting. I had obviously spent the entire week fasting and praying and trying to come to peace with what this meant, and I You know, had answers that I had one particular scripture that I wanted to share, and kind of my perspective was, I will tell him what I believe and he can tell me whether or not I am that he wants me to have a temple recommend. I just, the Lord had given me peace with that with just, OK, I just, you know, I thought it was a meeting to come and kind of be understood and to understand and and then I would submit to whatever his decision was. It was so strange to me that like, Like me, this like super active Mormon mom was being told that my temple recommend needed to be taken. I couldn’t even wrap my head around that. And so anyway, so I came into this meeting and it lasted several hours and it was the first time that I That I experienced what I now call spiritual abuse. It was an incredibly difficult experience where I, you know, the, the body language like I’m all small and sitting and just like I I never want to be a problem, you know, and then he’s like this and you know, with his and and regaling me with story after story of his. High school years and his career, you know, and, and, and I, and my husband was there and he, because he’s a business guy, you know, afterward he talked to me about it and he was like, this is who this is. This was, I mean, it, the impression I got from what my husband was telling me was like, this was a business meeting, this is how guys do it. These are power tactics. I’m a stay at home mom. I deal in relationships, right? Like I didn’t know there was power tactics at play. I thought it was to come to a meeting of the minds, but When I would try to speak, I was talked over. I tried to share a scripture once, and the scripture was slammed shut in front of me, and I was told we’re not doing that. And, you know, and it was um like I held it together as long as I could. There were also, it was my son, my son was playing Frederick and Pirates of Penzance at the junior high, and it was his opening night, and I was hoping to get there in time, but the meeting went so long. That my son was calling was texting me after saying, Mom, it’s over, and he not only did I miss his opening night in the musical that he was the leader of, but he had to walk home from it cause I was

[00:37:19] in the dark because I was still at the bishop’s office. And so, um, anyway, it went on and on and it was incredibly demeaning and difficult. I, you know, there was a lot of Well, like, here’s one example. Michelle, do you know, do you know golf? Shane, you’re a golfer, you know golf. Michelle, in golf, there’s the green and then there’s the, and now I can’t remember what it is cause I’m not a golfer, but the rough, the rough, well, there’s the green and the rough, and when you golf, you want to keep it on the green, and you’re getting out in the rough, and we need you to stay in the green. I mean it just went on and on and on this way. And, um, and I was being told that I needed to say that what I had said about Lot’s wife was wrong. I was told that I would never speak or teach again in church. And if I ever made comments in class, they needed to be directly out of the manual. That’s, um, that’s what I was told. And if I would do all of those things, I could keep my temple recommend. And I, you know, and, and it was more than that too. I kind of needed like the main message was our leaders are the ones who get answers and revelation, and you can’t know anything that they don’t know, like that was, that was the argument and It was, it was incredibly difficult. And if I, like I said, if I would try to say something or if I would try to ste scripture, the scriptures were slammed or I was talked over and, and, and so I was, this was the position I was put in, that I would never speak, I would never teach, and I wasn’t allowed to make comments and um and I needed to say that the things that I had learned directly from God were wrong. And so, so I didn’t, you know, I didn’t know what to do and um and and and and then he would like take the pressure off by regaling with us with another story or by talking to my husband or, you know. And so finally he launched into another story after my son had called me and was walking home and I couldn’t hold it together anymore, so I stood up and I was like, you guys go ahead and finish. I have to leave and The bishop stood up. I felt I, I don’t, my, my memory is that I was pinned against a wall. I’m, I’m certain he didn’t pin me against a wall, but that’s how it felt to me, you know, like, cause I stood up, he was much taller than I was, and he stood up and he said, Michelle, da da, and he said the questions again. Will you this,

[00:39:35] this, this, and I finally at that point broke down sobbing and just said. Bishop, I am. I’ve been a member my entire life. I read my scriptures. I have family home even with my children. I teach my children the gospel. I pray, I serve, I teach my children to serve. I fulfill my callings, like, I don’t understand why it’s harmful if I’m in the temple. That’s, you know, that was the best answer I could give through my hysterical tears and um. And at that point he just said. Neither do I, and he handed me my temp recommend and said, Go thy way rejoicing. Go thy way rejoicing. Go thy way rejoicing. I think that he thought it was kind of a situation of like a repentant sinner being again said I was anyway, it was so upsetting to me that I, I struggled for weeks and weeks and weeks. And I was in this place where I had had just before that, kind of that decoupling of the Lord saying, your eternal salvation is not dependent on an institution. And then I had had this experience where for me, being in the institution meant Not only that I could never speak, comment, teach, participate, but also that my children might be treated this way, that my daughters might grow up and have experiences like this, and I couldn’t, I couldn’t bear that thought. And for many months, I felt like I was on this razor’s edge of Of two horrible options. Like, you know, I, I was desperate like, Lord, if there’s something else you want me to go to, please show me if there’s something better, you know, where I live is a very, very, I think the highest per capita LDS community where I’m in northern Utah County, northeast Utah County, and we’re all we’re very, very active, very, very LDS here and um. And just in general like the church was my life. So on the one hand, leaving felt like this black abyss that, you know, that I just didn’t know how far I would fall. I kind of had this visualization again and then on the other hand, staying. like this black tar that I would be trapped and suffocated and I was kind of on this slippery, like the middle of a, the point of a roof that I was walking across trying to go, which way do you want me to fall, God? Just tell me which of these horrible options you want me to. Follow and I will cause, you know, I couldn’t see anything other than just black in either side and um and dealing with the reality of, OK, here’s my Almost 8 year olds going to be baptized. Are my teenage teenagers going to go on missions? Are we going to have our baby but like the when you’re so, so deeply embedded in the church and it is your entire life, the thought of leaving, you know,

[00:42:33] is overwhelming, but at the same time, the thought of staying was unbearable. I could not let my children ever experience anything like I had experienced. And um I’ve gone on to learn much more since then, so I don’t want to, but But anyway, I was in that place for quite a while and finally at one point, I, I was in, I was doing a homeschool class with my teenage children at American Heritage that we were taking in the sweet teacher there. He was a young seminary teacher, and I don’t know why. I just felt one day to talk to him after class and tell him what I was dealing with. And I kind of unloaded it on him, you know. And, um, and he was so, he was just a sweet, kind guy with a, um, You know, but he said a couple of things, and while he was talking, it wasn’t even what he said he, what he said so much as just through talking to him. The Lord just like filled my mind with this answer that for me was profound. That is this whole long story was leading up to telling you this. Sorry, I hope, I hope you’ve listened on double speed, but um. But the thing the Lord told me, if I can put it into words, was the savior stayed in the church. But did not submit the savior. Who had so, I mean, you know, the Son of God who came to straighten everything out, he absolutely saw the flaws in the church of his day. He struggled with them much more deeply than I ever could possibly, and, um, and he was upset and threatened and hurt by them. But he didn’t leave. He continued to go to the festivals, to the feast, to the events, to the temples, to the synagogues. He continued to participate, you know, there was a time where he left Jerusalem, but then he came back and and even still, he continued to stay in the church, but he didn’t submit to what the church told him he needed to do, right? He continued to do what God told him to do, and somehow that dynamic working together. While it wasn’t easy for him, it brought about the most important event in the history of mankind, the atonement, right? And um and I just felt this awareness of that that’s what we’re called to do, at least that’s what I felt called to do, was to stay in the church but not submit. And I was so profoundly thankful for that answer that I felt like the Lord. That difficult, painful, excruciating place I was in, of which of these horrible options. The Lord resolved that for me by telling me not only to stay, but how to stay, right? And by giving me this grand The idea of this is how I can follow the example of the savior is to stay in the church, but to have the courage and willingness to follow inspiration, which I

[00:45:25] have tried to very carefully do. I will say that it took many, many weeks, maybe months to feel. Like, you know, and I’ve always been a little bit, I guess I I’ve been blessed that I’ve always had either a newborn or enough babies that someone was sick, that if I, you know, I, I, I, it seems like for those following weeks, I never was able to go to church, which was really good cause I didn’t have to feel the guilt of not going to church when I couldn’t have gone because I was too still it was still too fresh and I was still too scarred, but a little while after that I had received that answer this. This bishop actually stopped by and just did a kind like a small act of kindness that actually was really good for me to help me heal and not feel threatened. And now, you know, I, I, I don’t want again it like a good guy trying his best, right? He it didn’t, he didn’t mean to have the impact on me that he did. And um and I know it was all in the Lord’s hands. So I’ve been so thankful for that experience because it did give me this depth of understanding that I couldn’t have otherwise had. And so anyway, it was so interesting because I had been told that I would never speak or teach or anything and um a little while later, well, I guess it was a quite a while later and well, that’s sorry I’m I’m jumbled. I did eventually, especially after that, the bishop reached out in kindness and um I think he just felt inspired to stop and say hi one day, and it actually was really important for me to feel safe again. And um I started to attend again and I actually It was hard at first, but gradually, bit by bit, I started to be overwhelmed with gratitude for my membership in the church, for the blessings to my family. I had struggled for so long with all of the hard things, you know, and I still see and saw all of the problems and the flaws and the things that I didn’t agree with or that were hard, but, um, but I started to more and more and more feel profoundly thankful for the blessings of church membership. It was like the Lord was really letting me see those. And, um, my two oldest sons ended up going on missions, and those were wonderful experiences for them. It was hard for me because I was navigating. I was like, I don’t buy into all of the things, so how did they go? I have to teach all of things, but you know the Lord gave me answers with both of them that really and and then of course gave them answers. I’m just talking as a mom feeling at peace, you know, I’m in that same spot again where my next son, my 3rd son is now preparing for a mission. And um working on his mission papers and the Lord again has given me answers. And so I um gradually just became more and more and more thankful and also just aware that the Lord can use me here. Like, I came to see the church kind of as a family. It’s, it’s this is part of what the seminary teacher had talked to me about that we that we were talking about. Like I’ve I’ve applied it to a family, but a family helps us both by

[00:48:28] teaching us and loving us and giving us all of the positive things, but a family also helps us by the, I guess the friction that’s there that we learn. Patience and forgiveness and humility and we learned to apologize and to forgive and we learn to, you know, by all of sort of the negatives in the family are also there to teach us, and I came to view the church in a similar way. It helps us in the positive ways and it also gives us sort of the Weight, it’s like the the weights that help us develop muscle as we continue to climb to God through all of the difficult interactions and even the errors, errors in the church, you know, it shouldn’t be such a mystery to us that there are errors in the church. Throughout the scriptures, we’re told that we’re under condemnation, yet we somehow just Still want to say all is well in Zion. So it is always just a confirmation of the truthfulness of scripture to me when I see these things. However, I need to finish up this story. So I told you that when I had been preparing my talk, I had that thought, there’s something about the state, and then you’re going to speak in state conference, which I had just put away. But when I saw the state president’s wife, that just felt like a confirmation. And so this whole time I was like, even though it was excruciatingly painful and difficult, I was able to feel like this is in God’s hands. This, OK, I can just trust God, you know, that really helped me. But it was fascinating because I ended up through a series of events. I ended up, um, emailing, but we had a new state president put in and I just woke up one morning with the strongest impression that I needed to email the state president and there was That was not something I was comfortable doing at all. In fact, I had, I was only willing to do it because of a commitment. I had just made the night before to the Lord that I would do whatever I was impressed to do. The next morning I woke up, so I just sent a brief email to the state president, the new state president, who I didn’t know at all, just saying, I’m, I apologize for emailing you, but I wanted to let you know that I had this experience. I spelled it out very briefly, just that I had to decide whether or not to stay and how difficult that was and that if there was anyone else in the state that Maybe it would be helpful, you know, that I was very willing to talk to anybody. I just felt like I wanted to help if if that would be helpful. Anyway, he ended up silly me, because I wasn’t paying close attention because I’m so busy with my kids. He ended up coming over and meeting with us in our home on Thursday and asking me to speak in state conference the following weekend at the adult session on Saturday night in less than 2 days, or in 2 days cause it was Thursday that he came over. And so, um. So, you know, I, when I had was preparing that talk and had the thought, you’re going to speak in state conference, the thing that felt good about it was, oh, I’ll give this talk in state conference, which was silly and I just put that away, but it was a very, very different talk. I was asked to give in state conference where I shared um some of the details about this experience,

[00:51:23] and it was fascinating cause my bishop, who the state president who had just been released, who had told my bishop what the rules needed to be for me. And my bishop, who was still in, were sitting in the congregation when they had told me I’d never teach or speak or, you know, they, and when I gave a talk in state conference, and, um, so I’ll include that in the links below for when I just have the talk that I that I gave written out. And, um, anyway, so it was so interesting to watch the Lord work in that experience that I had, that I’m continuing on. It’s not been easy sailing since then. But I have continually had the answer to stay in the church and um. And I, it’s not because I haven’t been open to any other answers. So I guess my, the, the reason I went into all of these long stories is that for those who are struggling, my hope is that, or my, I guess, I don’t know how to say it without sounding arrogant, my invitation, but you know, but whatever. I guess from my experience what I would advise if for anyone who’s seeking my advice is ask the Lord where you are needed. Ask the Lord what is in your highest good, right? Just try to rely on, I think that when we set up a house of cards like this where everything is always right, then it’s, you know, then we think everything the church does is right. So when we find out there are things that have been really, really wrong, the whole thing has to fall, and then we think, what does that mean? I have to leave. It’s it’s all or nothing. And I think that all or nothing thinking does not serve us well cause nothing in life is like that. And so, um. So I think it’s important for us to not step into that, but instead just step into seeking to be led individually and continually by the Lord and ask the Lord, where do you want me? And what is true individually, bit bit by bit, piece by piece, because just like a family is bad and good, a family works, right? Your family of origin is important for most of us. Like, that’s another podcast we can get into another time. But The same time this church is my home. It is my spiritual home, and the fact is, it works. I came to know God in this church and um I don’t need to leave. I don’t need to give the church that is my church to others. Because I disagree with what they’re doing. I can stay and follow the Lord and use my voice the way that the Lord inspires in my church, and, um, and I’m very thankful that the Lord helped me see that and understand. I also part staying was I kind of stayed in that same way a little bit more on my terms instead of feeling like if I’m told I need to do something, I need to do it, I am very much more careful now to pray and let the Lord tell me what to do.

[00:54:13] And, and I’m OK to say, oh, I’m not able to do that. That’s worked a lot better for me and helped me to avoid the exhaustion that I was struggling with. So anyway, those are some of my stories, and I’m sorry for rambling on about myself. I hope that this was somewhat interesting. Thank you so much for continuing with me, and we will continue to get into these topics and we’ll get back into 132. So thank you again. My name is Michelle Stone, and this is a 132 Problems.