163: Wayne May on Book of Mormon Geography and Historicity

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Transcript

[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon Polygamy. I am excited to have this guest. I’ll tell you a little bit more about it in the conversation. But, um, Wayne May has been studying Book of Mormon history and geography for decades. I’ve really stayed away from this to a great extent. I’ve, I’ve been curious about it, delved in a little bit here and there, but I haven’t made it. Um, a, a directed effort. But things fell together to have Wayne come on to talk to us about his theories and research into the literal history and geography of the Book of Mormon. I wanted to have this conversation so everybody could join in and see what they think of what he presents. So thank you so much for joining us as we take this deep dive into the murky waters of Book of Mormon literal historicity and geography. Welcome to 132 Problems. I am excited to have you here for this conversation with Wayne May, who I am just meeting today for the first time. And I have to let people know just a little of, um, why we’re doing this interview, because it’s kind of a fun story. So when I, um, went on John Dehlin, I have, um, received some pushback from, um, from how I answered John’s, um, questions, repeated questions about how I view the Book of Mormon, where, how I view the, I guess, the literal historicity of it, which kind of goes into the geography and those questions. And my answer was basically that I value the Book of Mormon because of what it teaches me about the gospel of Jesus Christ and coming, coming to Jesus Christ. And so I don’t think about the geography and I don’t worry about the literal historicity of it. It was, was my response. That got twisted by some people into claiming that I don’t believe in the Book of Mormon. And, um, which is not what I said, and not what I intended to say at all. But as a result of some of the memes that have been going around and the Claims that people are pushing. Not, not, I don’t think people took that from the interview, actually, but since people are now saying that I don’t believe in the Book of Mormon, I had two separate people at the exact same time reach out to me to talk to me about Wayne’s work. One of my friends came to my house and brought me some of Wayne’s magazines and a really neat stone. Oh, I was gonna wear it. Maybe I’ll go put it on. She brought me a necklace of, um, that’s a demonstration of one of Wayne’s artifacts, and I forgot to put it on. I’m sorry, Kristen. And then another friend called me on the phone to talk to me about Wayne, and um in the mouths of two or three witnesses, right? I also have heard about Wayne from some other people, so I decided. Um, that it might be fun to talk to Wayne and let him present. So for anyone that doesn’t know, Wayne May works on Book of Mormon geography and focuses on the Heartland model is my understanding. I’m sure Wayne will tell us a lot more about himself, but I wanted to understand why I’m really looking forward to this, um, conversation, because I haven’t gotten very deep into this topic, as I said, because it’s not what I feel called to focus on. But I Did want to, um, have Wayne on to present a portion. I know he can’t present everything, but to present a portion of his, um, work just for everybody’s consideration so everyone can look at it and see what they think. So, Wayne, thank you so much for coming. And I would love to hear you tell us a little bit about yourself, introduce yourself, tell us what we need to know, and then I’m sure we’ll just jump into your presentation.

[03:34] Wayne May: OK. Well, thanks for having me. It’s, it’s, it’s, uh, I always like to go and meet new people and, you know, you, you’ve got a big following and it’s nice to meet a lot of new folks. Um, you know, people always ask, you know, is, is geography important? And I say, well, let me answer it this way. Uh, why do people go to Jerusalem? Why do people go to Egypt? Why do they go to Athens? Uh, these are people that really like history. And especially if you’re going to Jerusalem, you wanna walk where Jesus walked and see a galley. So I mean, you know, geography is important. It has a connection, it has a connection. Um, so to me, In North America, for me, this is my connection to the Book of Mormon, and that’s what we’re gonna see today. And I, again, I can’t cover everything. I, uh, truly, Michelle, if we want to do everything, you’re gonna have to have me here about 10 times. Cause everything I talk about, after about every 3rd slide, then, then there’s, uh, now, there’s a whole new window going off here to the right, and there’s a, there’s so much stuff. So anyway, I’m gonna give you a good smattering today, but uh how I got into this, I want you to know that I’ve had an arrowhead in my pocket since 5th grade. OK. Growing up in Wisconsin, there’s stuff here all over. I mean, mounds, uh, Native Americans. I, my first girlfriend, first grade was in a juba gal. And I have a picture of her and I together. I mean, my first girlfriend. So, yeah, and, and, and the guy that cut my hair, and, and it was her grandfather. He was my barber. You know, it’s, um, anyway, my little town of Boysville, where I grew up in northern Wisconsin, it was really unusual because you could start at one end of town. It’s only, Main Street is only 3 blocks long. You walk by the drugstore and you’d hear uh Slovaks, Slovakian, Czechlos, Hungry people, they’re, they’re, they’re chattering. And I go a few more feet into the uh the grocery store, and uh Gilbertson was there, and he was Norwegian, he’s speaking Norwegian. You see? And then what the real kicker was, then, of course, I get English at the far end, but once in a while, a guy named Sam, the Russian would come in from Northern Connorsville, and him and his wife and friends, they’re all speaking Russian. I mean, this is wild, this little town of 600 people. I got all this stuff going on. So, but anyway, let me tell you, 5th grade, my kid, my, my friends and I, we’re just sitting up in a sand quarry in the summertime. And we were like golfers. We’d, we’d dig in the bank and just dig a hole going in and come out, just tunneling. We’re only about, maybe about 10 inches of topsoil, but we’re under that and the sand gravel, we’re digging tunnels. We were back in it, we made a room this one year. And sitting there, of course, there’s gravel on the sides of the sand wall. And I think it was Cliff or Don, I don’t remember which one, but he just, he saw this neat white stone. He just started circling the stone with his finger. And the stone got bigger and bigger and bigger. And then finally we saw this black jagged line going across this white stone. And the guy said, gosh, what is that? And I said, Man, you know, if I didn’t know any better, it looks like a guy’s skull, you know, where your skull comes together, the three zigzaggy things out there. And so we, we went at it horizontally. By golly, we dug right into a Native American burial at 5th grade. I mean, what an adventure. I mean, I’ve never sacrilegiously heard a grave, but 5th grade, I’m sorry, folks, we just kept going, and we dug up almost an entire skeleton, and we had pottery, and we had points. I mean, what an adventure, you know. And so we put all the stuff in a box. We, we take it down to, to Cliff’s house. Uh, they had, they had a big storage room next to the garage. We’re gonna put it in there in the garage, right? Well, it comes on, Mom didn’t want it there, and so Dad was there, he popped up. Dad said they put it in the trunk of the car and then I’ll, I’ll talk to mother later. We’ll work it out. Don’t worry about it. So what do we put in the trunk of dad’s car? Well, Little did we know, uh, we won’t know that 5th grade, but. Cliff’s mom and dad were on the edge of divorce. That night they had a big fight, and Dad decided to leave. I mean, this was a longcoming process. Sad, but that’s the story. But anyway, that night when Dad left, he drove off. Oh no. And we never saw our box at Indiana again. He’s gone. My first artifacts gone. Uh, so I, I like to tell that story. It’s just, you know, it’s good, but, and I’ve got a lot of neat stuff that’s happened growing up as a kid in Wisconsin. But anyway, I want you to know that. I’d gone to summer session, and I did 2 semesters full year of college, and it was in my fall semester of my sophomore year. And, uh, I started school in about the middle of October, something came over me and I, I, you know, I got homesick. I’m a sophomore in college and I got homesick. And I felt I had to go home. Something was pulling me to go home. Home for me is 4.5 hours north. I was down in the southern part of Wisconsin, homes up north. And so I just packed up my stuff and I dropped out of school. I mean, it’s crazy. I, I strolled into, for breakfast. I got there in time for breakfast, and mom and dad told what’s happening, and mom and dad, they’re, they’re, they’re just very, you know, the level head. They said, OK, well, go get a job. You know, nobody’s upset. They said, go get a job. You’re not gonna sit at home. You gotta go get a job. So that’s fine. So, I got a job downtown Menominee, Wisconsin. Menomi, by the way, is the home of also one of our nine state universities. It’s called Stout, and uh a lot of, a lot of elder people come there. But anyway, I’m working in a men’s store, and now, this is late October, early November. We get a hard freeze that year. No snow, cause the temperature went too low. When it gets too low down to like, you know, 0, it doesn’t snow anymore. It just freezes. Well, we had two missionaries from the South that were there, and they had never seen frozen lakes before. It was their pee day and they’re on the ice down there sliding around, you know, having a good time. And one of the guys slipped and did the splits, and he ripped out the whole crotch of his trousers. So here are these guys come in. It’s about 10 below outside. And of course, the other elder’s laughing and the guy that wrecked his pants, he’s got his coat tied around his waist, you know. But I can see these white things flapping between his legs, you know. And I figure, well, it’s Long John underwear, right? Uh, no big deal. So they came in and we had a nice visit. I fixed them up, got him a pair of pants, and, you know, they never said one word about the church.

[09:55] spk_2: Oh,

[09:55] Michelle: wow. Not

[09:56] Wayne May: one word. But you see, I have a problem that Brother Joseph had. I always ask a question. So as they’re going out the door, I said, hey guys, how come you both have the same first name of Elder? I have never heard anybody named Elder. Well, then they’re on me like bees on honey, you know. And then I went and saw a film called Man’s Search for Happiness, and I gotta tell you, When I saw that film. I was hooked. Now, I was very careful. It took me 2.5 years to get baptized, but I was dropping my bad habits. I was positioning myself. To get baptized. And I had focus. I do it at the end of my senior year, to get out to get away from, as I was in a fraternity, I want to get away from all the guys, you know. Uh, but anyway, I, I stood my ground. I mean, I quit drinking. I was a bartender. I, I quit tending bar, and I quit drinking beer, and I, I didn’t get, you know, these little bababa little things at the time. And finally, in, in 70, I got baptized. So I’ve been in the church since 1970. And my wife is my first convert.

[11:01] Michelle: Oh, good job.

[11:03] Wayne May: Um, uh, you know, we, we were dating pretty heavily, and, uh, before, before we got engaged, I, I told her straight out that I was gonna make a major change in my life and I described this, this wild church on Utah, you know. So, anyway, uh, she liked what she heard, uh, you know, it just worked out and she She made, she took the lessons and I, I would, uh, I did not see her for 60 days. I said, I don’t want to be around. You gotta make up your own mind. This is a big decision and, uh, changing your life, and I don’t know what your parents are gonna say, you know, blah, blah, blah, you know, that’s a big change to do that. But anyway, she did, and, uh, Here we are. I’ve been in the church now, I don’t know, 54, 55 years, uh, 7 kids, 22 grandkids, 3 boys. They’ve all served missions, and, uh, all my kids are active because I’m very blessed. We’re very, very blessed. My kids in high school, they’re the only eldest people in school. I mean,

[11:58] Michelle: yeah, so you’re still in.

[11:59] Wayne May: Yeah, oh yeah, I’m still here. I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m 1400 miles from you right now. Yeah I’m in Wisconsin, so yeah, it’s, it’s been great. It’s, it’s been great. I, I have no questions. However, now I want to tell you why I do what I do, OK? Early on. Uh, now, I, archaeology has always been a love for me, but I wanna make people understand that my joining the church had nothing to do with archaeology. I had a terrific 4 or 5 spiritual experiences that If, if heavenly father said to me, Wayne, I’m gonna give you one wish, one wish. What I would say is, I want all 7 of my kids to have the same experience that you gave me. So, with that said, plunge forward. Now, I had several people early on. I, I, I ran in the church. I mean, the church says it’s in Central America, it’s in Central America. I didn’t care. I was focused on North America. I studied two groups of people, Adina and Hopewell, and, uh, I didn’t really apply them toward Book of Mormon. Um, I, I was just looking at straight archaeology and because, because the, the Book of Morron took place in Central America and in South America, and that’s fine. OK. All these years I’m growing in the gospel. 18 years have passed since I got baptized. Now, my wife and I, our temple district is, guess where? Salt Lake City, 1400 miles one way. We didn’t get out here very often, but when we did, I was in the bookstores, my wife was in the food stores, you know, food stores, because all those stores are gone downtown Salt Lake, which I, I really miss them. Uh, it’s too bad. Um, so anyway, that’s what we did. Uh, she threw food in the backseat and I threw books, and when they got up to the back window, we felt, well, it’s time to go home because I couldn’t get this stuff in Wisconsin, you know, we couldn’t do it. So we’re just trying to do what’s right. But anyway, we did have a temple and then by that time in Chicago, we made one last trip out to Utah, and that was in 1989, 18 years had passed, and in the church. And I picked up a book. And I’m gonna just advance this here real quick through here. We’re gonna go right through uh the intro here. Yeah, right there. I picked up this book called The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith. Now, little did I know, you jumped to our day. What’s in here is now coming out in all the new journals on Joseph. OK. But a lot of that good stuff is in here. So we, we took time driving home. My wife now, she’s driving a car, and I’m, I’m going through this book because I want to know more about Joseph. I’ve been studying, you know, the doctrine of covenants and the Book of Mormon and the Bible, but I want to know about this guy, Joseph. I mean, this guy, you know, this, this guy’s special. And that’s why I bought this book. So I’m in this book, you know, and I’m, I’m reading along and, man, I came across something that just really, really blew me away. He writes a letter on June 4. To Emma, this is the Zion camp march. He leaves Kirtland, walks all the way to Missouri, as you can see on this slide, and he says, we arrived this morning on the banks of the Mississippi. We left the eastern part of the state of Ohio, wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of the once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls and bones as proof of its divine authenticity. Joseph. Smith Junior. Well, I gotta tell you, when I read this, my Hopewell and Adena in this part of the country collided with the Maya in Central America. I mean, it was an explosion. I was just, uh, I mean, I, it was like, I was just, this is, this is wild. And I sat there for a minute, and I, and then of course, a cliche for the day. I looked on my wife. I didn’t give her any warning. I just said, Houston, we got a problem. Or she had no idea what I was talking about, but I, I said explain later, but I was, man, this, this was my start.

[16:03] Michelle: Yeah, that’s huge, yeah.

[16:05] Wayne May: I, I just said, how, why isn’t this in the end sign? Um, why aren’t we talking about this? Cause all I hear about is Maya, Maya, Maya Maya. That’s all I hear. And so, I mean, uh, you know, when, when I first started this, I don’t know, about 20 years ago, putting this out in front of people that I talked to groups of the church, and I asked for a show of hands.

[16:29] Michelle: Nobody had it. Wow.

[16:32] Wayne May: How is that possible? Anyway, so that’s what’s happening.

[16:37] spk_2: That’s,

[16:38] Michelle: that’s fascinating. I’ll let you take those slides back. I’m curious in all of the work that you’ve been doing over these decades. Um, have you ever seen a statement from Joseph Smith about South or Central Mesoamerica? Because didn’t, didn’t Joseph I believe it was. Oh yeah, have you seen statements that that he said

[16:56] Wayne May: I wasn’t gonna go there because it, it, it’s frankly a talk all by itself.

[17:00] Michelle: OK,

[17:03] Wayne May: he does, he does. OK, we’ll get back to that one, OK? Let me just press on here. So my point is, where Joseph had covered on the Zion camp march, this is the entire area for my Hopewell studies. It’s the heartland. Of the eastern half of our country. And I don’t you can’t see, but underneath the the letter E of Hopewell, there’s a yellow spot. That’s Navu. Can you see that little yellow sticking out there? A little bit, uh-huh that’s Nu and and the red star, everybody guesses the red, you know what that is, right? That’s where I live.

[17:42] Michelle: OK, that’s right above you. Wow, OK.

[17:45] Wayne May: So anyway, that’s where I live. So that’s where I’m at right now. So anyway, this is really important. The mountain builder culture, as you look at it, we got a group called the Late archaic, which is Adina. They’re all together. Not the timeline. And then you got there’s the Hopewell group, 550 BC to 400 AD. So familiar?

[18:05] Michelle: That’s the time period of the Book of Mormon, right? So you’ve already, so you had already studied these ancient peoples because you’d been studying archaeology.

[18:12] Wayne May: I’m just getting flooded. I mean, I, the, the book just came alive for me. I can’t, so our Jaredites will come out of this group, OK. Mulekites, Nephites, lamites are all gonna come out of this group. And of course, here we have this post Book of Mormon group. And, but they’re, they come much later. We got this 500 year gap. And in the Book of Morrah, what happens? Well, the victors at Camorraland, they continue the fight, and it says it’s really bad here for a long time. They’re fighting, and that’s at 400 AD and forward. Well, what’s happening in Europe at 400 AD? It’s called the Dark Ages. The same thing is happening on both continents. We have a dark ages here in our Book of Mormon, and people just aren’t focusing on that, but it, it’s the same. The Lord said, the day will come when you’ll search to and fro in the land to find the word of the Lord, but you can’t find it because I’m taking it away.

[19:05] Michelle: So that’s after the end of the Book of Mormon.

[19:09] Wayne May: OK, OK,

[19:11] Michelle: and we don’t have, so, so I, this is all new to me, so forgive me if I ask too many questions, but yeah, so, so, so we already, I, I know nothing about North American geography. I, I mean, um, archaeology. So it had already been discovered that there were these different peoples, these different civilizations, and that gap was already there. And so you’re applying. OK, OK, this is really interesting.

[19:35] Wayne May: I’m, I’m not a scientist. I’m just gonna say, hey, in 1989 when I got back home from Utah trip. I called Doctor John Sorenson, the head guy for the farms group that supports Maya country. OK. I called probably 2 or 3 times a year. I quit calling in 1992. He would never take my call. I got to be good friends with his secretary. OK. And I kept telling her I said, look, all I want is to have Doctor Sorenson send out one of his, his aides, his TAs. Just send one or two out here. Let me run them around for a week in Ohio and Indiana. I just want you to see what’s out here. I wasn’t trying to replace Central America. I’m just saying, we got a lot of stuff here that supports the Book of Mormon. Please come out and look. When come. And again, I, I was not here to challenge or replace Central America. I was saying. We got a lot of stuff out here that matches really well for the Book of Mormons, so come on out and I will show it to you. That’s all. That’s it. I got no response. Nada. So, 92, I’d had experience now in the magazine publishing world, and by ’93, I, uh, I jumped in what’s called Ancient American magazine, which I’ve been publishing for 34 years, 34 years. Yeah. And out of that comes all non-members telling me their fines throughout North America that I’m publishing in my magazine. And out of those stories coming in, I could glean out all the stuff that’s really very complimentary to the Book of Mormon. To support Joseph’s statement of walking across the plains of the Nephites. I’m saying, wow, this is crazy. It’s all here. And again, this quick one here. Here’s all the things that are common that we find. Great Lakes to Florida, Kansas, New York. I mean, it’s a big area and it covers that whole area that I showed you before, all right? Now. Here’s the timeline. This is the Book of Mormon timeline, 600 BC. It begins, of course, they make the journey into the Arabian Peninsula. 385 is the last war in New York. It’s 385. 421, Moroni says, farewell. OK. So, This is Hopewell Archaeology, North America. I mean, how close do you have to get people? How close? I mean, This has been ignored. It’s been ignored by our boys out in the anthropology department. I, I don’t know what the problem is. They’re, they’re just so stuck on Central America. I said, you guys need to come up here and take a look. But here’s the best news, which I’ve really already explained, non-Mormon academics are doing the work for us. So you can’t say I’m making this up.

[22:28] Michelle: That is great. So let me ask. So with the Hopewell, because the Nephites would have had to land and land somewhere. So, so do you see them making their way across until they develop this civilization? Cause it does seem like, um, does the Hopewell start in 550 BC as a big civilization, or is it just starting to be built? How, you know what I mean? Talk me through that beginning timeline,

[22:49] spk_2: because I can answer

[22:50] Wayne May: that for you.

[22:51] Michelle: OK. And if it’s too much and I need to just like,

[22:53] Wayne May: it’s OK. It’s OK. you’re good. You’re good. Just hold on. Here is the heartland of America, all the red dots. That’s where our people are, from Book of Mormon.

[23:05] Michelle: OK.

[23:06] Wayne May: OK.

[23:07] Michelle: OK.

[23:08] Wayne May: You cross the Mississippi and this trails off really quick. The west, everything’s in the east, the Mississippi and the Appalachian Mountains.

[23:18] Michelle: So is this the limited geography model, like I’ve heard? You don’t do the limited. You say it’s the whole, the whole continent.

[23:26] Wayne May: OK. The limited geography model will focus on Lake Erie and Lake Ontario only. OK. OK. OK. And the reason they do that, out of respect for our professors at BYU at the Anthropology department archaeology. They have decided the Yucatan Peninsula is the heart of the Book of Mormon lands, and that circle makes about 1000 square mile area. And so the guys from North America, before my time, took that little circle and dropped it on Erie, Ontario because Hill Camorra is up there for the plates. But you see, up there, it starts about 200 AD. It doesn’t work. If you want to get everything for Hopewell, you got to take what you’re looking at right here and expand. And that’s where I come in, OK? All right. I’m, I’m the dirt guy. I’m out digging on the dirt. So here we go. Now, this is gonna answer a lot of questions for you, what you just asked me. OK. First of all, we’re told that Lehigh lands at 30 degrees latitude south. And that was all. Made up and proposed by Frederick G. Williams, who was Joseph Smith’s scribe. Now, he wrote this on the back of Doctrine Covenant, I can’t remember, it’s 105 or 107. It’s one of the two. And because Joseph’s 105 DNC or 107 is on one side, on the backside, he writes a story about landing at 30 degrees latitude. And of course, it was taken for a long time that Joseph did both. And now, that’s been proven it has not. I mean, BYU figured that out. They, they, no, no, that was, it wasn’t Joseph, that was the scribe just wrote that out. But he picked that for a reason because I believe he actually heard Joseph Smith say 30 degrees latitude. But Joseph didn’t say South, didn’t say North, because the brethren at that time are looking at what’s called the Western Hemisphere model. Narrow neck is Panama, North America’s land north, South America’s land south. They took the whole hemisphere and I gotta tell you that doesn’t work. You can easily, you can easily wipe that out. But anyway, that’s what happened. That’s what happened. So, So now can

[25:33] Michelle: you just really quickly for people that think that that works, like, because, because I think as a little girl, I thought that, right? But when you start realizing that when you’re living in Panama, it’s not a narrow neck. It doesn’t appear that way. They didn’t have large geographic models. Is that kind of, I mean, that was my realization. Yeah, it’s too big

[25:51] spk_2: can walk

[25:52] Wayne May: in a day and a

[25:53] Michelle: half. Right, OK. So yeah, I just wanted to point that out for anyone that’s still in their mind thinks, you know, that’s kind of can be the default that you grow up thinking, but no,

[26:02] Wayne May: it doesn’t work we can get to in this presentation. Everything we’re talking about, so you get all these, which is OK. You’re thinking that that’s good. That’s good. I like that. So anyway. When, when they figured out that the 30 degrees wasn’t gonna work, they moved it up to the isthmus of Darien, and then just everything just got moved up. They just picked it out of the air. They have no archaeological backing. That’s my point. So what are you guys doing, you know, but anyway, uh, that’s another story. So Hill Camorra, they’re claiming that Hill Kimmora is. To make Central America work, you gotta have another Camorra, see? This is why two Camorra guys or 1 Camora guy, and I’m a 1 Kimura guy. I’m New York only, period. But these guys, they’ve got 4 hills picked out. In Mexico and Yucatan as possibilities for the big battle 4 so we have a little jingle and 123 kimono 4. How many more? That’s our jingle, um, but anyway, let me go on. Let me go on. OK. Poor Moroni, or 21 or before, he has to carry this they guess a 60 pound weight. All the way through and I’m the northern part of Mexico, guys, it is a true desert into Texas. It’s rough turn. But anyway, he has to go all the way up. To deposit the place, he’s gonna make a big swing to this, what’s he gonna do out there cause he dedicates. The Mantii Temple, that’s well established, and there’s good support that he also dedicated to Saint George, but I’m not gonna go there. But anyway, he ends up in

[27:33] Michelle: New York. Let me just ask, I assume those are just by statements from later church leaders that said that, OK, OK, continue.

[27:41] Wayne May: OK, that’s 3800 miles by foot. I just thought, man, that’s, you know, that, that’s pretty tough. So anyway, for me, that’s what it is, 421. I think it’s the only book. There is no two Hill Comores. So, this is the two hill theory that they have been pushing all these years, but I’m a one hill guy. Uh, so all the stuff below Texas. To me today means nothing and that’s what I’ve been talking again since 1993, making patients we here at Western Hemisphere model. Let me just press on now. This will, this will help you a lot. Here’s North America. That’s the Yucatan, that’s 1000 square miles? And the guys that respected the academics, they did the same thing for. Here in Ontario, there’s your limited model, OK? But there is your big model. If you’re gonna make the whole it’ll work for Ontario and Lake Erie, you gotta take the whole banana. You can’t, you can’t cherry pick.

[28:43] Michelle: I like that. I agree with you because those are, you’ve just addressed two of the things that have bothered me about the Book of Mormon geography discussion. Like, like I’ve heard that it was a spiritual, um, transportation of plates, or that, you know, like, like I’ve never heard that explained

[28:58] Wayne May: well. Oh, I’m glad you said that. Because in the journal Discourses, if you have the set, volume 19, and I can’t give you the page number off the top of my head, but it’s in volume 19. You can find it. This is when Oliver and Joseph, it’s written how they went to the Hill Camorra to return the plates, and it just says to an angel, we assume it’s M I, and it probably is, but turned the plates and says the hill opens up. And they walk inside, and then they see, we see many wagon loads of

[29:29] spk_2: plates. I mean, that sort

[29:30] Michelle: of they have that.

[29:33] Wayne May: So my first question back to the Maso guys were how did all those plates from Central America get up to New York. When he had to carry that little set, and they said, oh, the Lord just transported the whole thing up there.

[29:48] Michelle: Right.

[29:49] Wayne May: And I said, you know what, if I was Moroni, I’m gonna get a ride or I ain’t going.

[29:54] Michelle: Well, do you, do you know who, um, who that, who gave us that account because I do think that it was Brigham Young. OK, so we don’t have anything from Joseph. That was

[30:05] Wayne May: 19. It’s all there.

[30:07] Michelle: OK, all right.

[30:08] Wayne May: There’s a lot more, more just hang on. OK. So this is called the Hopewell interaction sphere. And this is where I work. This is where I, I find out. Now, because of my reading of Hopewell and everything, I was very focused on the center part of the country. So I’ve had to go spread out myself to find the things that I find and I can share today, which I do. Hopewell Mobiters, that’s my guide. These are my nephites. I don’t question it at all, period. And I’m just gonna show you some stuff, OK? Two hill theory, there it is, bingo bingo. All right, now. One of the first things we talked about, why is the Book of Mormon always rejected by academics and by just regular people? Well, This is the pet answer I get because of Joseph’s first vision. The answer is no, that’s wrong. Second best answer I get from a group of LDS is that it’s because he got these plates from an angel of God. No, wrong. Because of

[31:05] Michelle: the archaeology, it is, it’s wrong.

[31:09] Wayne May: Oh really? Academia does not accept the Book of Mormon, and you’re gonna be surprised. OK, so simple. Ancient man could not cross the oceans until Christopher Columbus got here.

[31:23] Michelle: Right, yep, I have heard this. Uh-huh.

[31:26] Wayne May: No maritime technology to cross the oceans. I’m here to tell you that is baloney. There’s so much stuff coming out today to show this is totally wrong. Jaredites got here by boat. Nephites got here and the Mulekites got here. So right away, they’re looking at the Book of Mormon from an academic point of view, as they understand archaeology, the Book of Mormon is false, cause these guys could not sail here. They don’t care about the spiritual aspect, they don’t have to. It’s already baloney, you see? It’s already done, you know, BX. Uh, such a bummer. Well, we got surprises for them. We got surprises, all right? Now, Lehi’s first landing is very important, but I’m gonna build up to it. I’m not gonna show you right away, OK? But I’m gonna show you what I found before I found where it was. All right? OK. I’m reading in the Book of Mormon, of course. It came to pass, timber was exceedingly scarce in the land northward, and they did send forth much by the way of shipping, was shipping out of Zarahemla. How is that possible? Well, these guys are an inland people. All they have is some rivers. Interesting, shipping. And then we get it again. 100th part of the percentage of these people, they counted the lamites, the Nephites, and they’re shipping and building those ships. These guys are sailing around North America, waterways. How is that possible? How is that possible? And here it is. These are, as you can see, Two sketches of a big Hopewell site called Marietta. Now, the, the size difference has no, no, no difference. But the big one, if you notice, the shaded area, that’s elevation. So, the river, you see how skinny it is, used to be all the way up to the edge of the banks. Can you appreciate that? I’m gonna help you out here in a minute, but so they’re very down the walkway is called the causeway. The water was right up here at the very top at the edge. OK, OK. Now, here’s the buildings. That’s the Hopewell structures. That’s where they lived. That’s the water they had in the Book of Mormon times. We’re talking 20 to 30-foot change in river depth, in depth, because these banks are 30 and 50 ft down to the water today. So America was just a myriad of highways for boats, and the Book of Mormon tells us they were shipping out of Zarahemla, taking lumber up into the land north because it had been so badly denuded by the Jaredites. They wanted to build with wood. Now, here’s the other one, and this is, of course, same one, and this is today.

[34:08] Michelle: OK. OK. So this work, this is really interesting because someone did just tell me, I was just talking to someone about, about this interview and they said, Oh, we can’t know cause the geography was so different. The water, things that were under, but we do know. So the work has been done to say this is what America would have looked like this is what this geographical area would have looked like and been like at this period. So that work has been done.

[34:33] Wayne May: OK, that’s one of the best, the best things we really have. And I’m, I’m gonna tell you what the best ones that we, the best ones we find are uh around the Great Lakes in the Saint Lawrence Seaway. We find petroglyphs. Now on this limestone, sandstone cliffs, 1015 30 ft above the waterline today. So, First time those were looked at. Historians are saying, well, the Indians must have repelled from the top down so they could make all these petroglyphs. They’re hanging by a rope or whatever. Now. That’s when the water levels were that high. They sat in their canoe and made their petroglyphs. Water’s dropped down, now you got another layer of petroglyphs. Water’s dropped down even further, you got a third layer of petroglyphs. I’m,

[35:21] Michelle: I do have to say that makes way more sense.

[35:24] Wayne May: It’s all about the water. And that’ll, that also will play into the Jaradites, which I, I want to give you a Jerry presentation someday because I, I never thought I’d find what I found for the Jaredites. It’s unbelievable. I can, I can tell you where they crossed, and I can show you in the scriptures where it tells you where they crossed, and nobody’s picked it up. OK, I’ve told it’s fun stuff. the scriptures, they’ll help you out. So here we are. That’s then, this is today. Let’s go on. Now, 1994, I’m in Pearl River, it’s in Missouri. I’m standing on this pile of stones in a guy’s farm field. This guy called me up and said, come down. You gotta see this weird stuff. I got stones all over and I got holes poked in. Well, I was all excited. I thought, this must be some kind of a collapsed building. So we’re, my, my friend Frank was with me. We’re going hole to hole. We’re trying to line up and make squares, rectangles, and everything was just crisscross and mission. It was, it was just nuts. What are these? Stones for, and I’m talking, I was on at least 100 stones, minimum, and if there’s stones under the stones, and next to it is a big rock face that they’re coring the stones out of to make and they’re not even shaped.

[36:34] Michelle: How big are these stones like, like this big or

[36:37] Wayne May: you’ll go hand size to 300 pounds. OK,

[36:41] spk_2: OK.

[36:42] Wayne May: All right. Just hang on to that, OK. And this is the real fine and it’s too bad, it’s so eroded away. Every ship in the Mediterranean, they had Captain stone or a pilot stone, and it was different. And this is it. You can see it’s got a bevel edge all the way around, and it had a writing on it told who the captain of the ship was, who the pilot was, and maybe it had a prayer on there for safe sailing. Well, this has all been eroded off because of time. I knew what it was as soon as I saw it. It had to do a shipping, but I didn’t recognize the stones it was sitting on. That’ll come in a little bit.

[37:18] spk_2: This is the 300 pounder.

[37:20] Wayne May: Now I gotta tell you guys, these are not for canoes,

[37:23] spk_2: OK? Yes, OK.

[37:26] Wayne May: Because what’s gonna happen, I’m gonna find out that these things are anchors. When I stumbled into this, the Mediterranean and found out that they were taking limestone blocks, no particular shape, punching 12, and 3 holes in them and use them for anchors, and this went on for centuries in the Mediterranean. This was their anchors. I’m sitting on back here. This is an anchor. I’m on top of a pile of anchor stones at the

[37:57] Michelle: this is the anchor graveyard, yeah, OK.

[38:01] Wayne May: And here, I didn’t know what it was 1994. 0 man. That has been turned into a real estate development. The anchors have all been plowed off. They’re gone.

[38:11] Michelle: So why would they gather all the anchors into one spot like that,

[38:15] Wayne May: do you think it’s just because it’s the quarry. They’re making them there.

[38:17] Michelle: 00, so they’re not discarding them down.

[38:21] Wayne May: The Mississippi is not where it is today. It’s very close to the Pearl River where these are. It goes up in. You got the water. So here’s, here’s online. 312 holders. There’s your information all documented, OK? So I’m looking around, I start looking everywhere. Lake Superior. Look at, look at the rope cut in the middle. I mean, help me out, people. These guys are sailing. Here’s Kentucky. This is Kentucky. Mississippi Ohio, Kentucky, I, I forgot what side of the river the guy found it on, OK? But these are all anchors, Florida. Florida, Florida’s got the most, by the way, the most.

[39:08] Michelle: That makes sense. So while you’re going through these, I do have a couple of questions. Have any other archaeologists paid attention to these? Are there any other theories about what they are? Nope.

[39:18] spk_2: Really?

[39:20] Wayne May: You know why? Nothing happened in North America Columbus got here.

[39:24] Michelle: OK, I have

[39:25] Wayne May: to beat that drum because that’s, that’s, that’s the wall that I run into everywhere I go. Now, I go to Smithsonian, I want to see the big skeletons because I know they’ve got over a couple 100. You know what they tell me? They don’t know where they are. Yeah, we got them, but we don’t know where they are. OK. I can’t see them. And I’m just giving a tip of the iceberg. I mean, I got, I got, I got 34 years in this crazy stuff. And, yeah. Anyway, look, look how big these are. These are in people’s yards, and look down at the bottom right, 5006. This guy used them for his address for his house.

[40:04] spk_2: These are

[40:04] Michelle: huge. And so you can tell the size of the ship by the size of the anchors. OK, yeah, that makes sense. These are canoes. Yes, it would sink a canoe because that’s, yeah, you would have to have it be proportional to the size of the ship. OK,

[40:21] Wayne May: first landing for Lehigh. You ready? I’m gonna show you where Lehi came in and I can prove it archaeologically. OK. All right. Heliman 6:10, the land south was called Lehigh, and the land north was called Mulich. After the son of Zetia, the Lord brought Mulich into the land north, he brought Lehi into the land south. And I gotta tell you, it’s not the Western Hemisphere, people. Here we go. Feast on that We

[40:48] Michelle: have lands

[40:49] Wayne May: at Florida. At 30 degrees latitude. Ring a bell?

[40:56] Michelle: And that’s where you’re finding the anchors. That’s the right

[40:58] Wayne May: where the anchors are. OK. Oh my gosh, there’s a huge Cory sitting right there. Huge. Anyway, I got more ships from Much only because in the Book of Mormon it says when Mosiah, many, many years later finds his way to Zarahemla, the Mulekites are very numerous. They’re more numerous than The Nephites. So I just kept thinking maybe they came in with more boats. I don’t know. You know, it’s a, it’s a royal family. They got the bucks, they could have sailed out, you know, where Lee had had to sneak out, you know. And the Native Americans that all live here on the Saint Lawrence, primarily the Algonquin family, around the Great Lakes, around the Saint Lawrence, they will all tell you. We did not come across the Bering Land Bridge. That’s a white man’s story. Now, we know some, we had some visitors that did come that way. But we don’t live here, we came from the east. We came from the rising sun, sailed across the Atlantic into the mouth of the Saint Lawrence, and we spread across the heartland off those waterways, off the waterways, and Lehigh did the same thing.

[42:05] Michelle: OK, all right, so those people’s stories of themselves,

[42:11] Wayne May: it’s OK. Even Doctor Sorenson, who supports Central America. He recognizes a very important fact. He said that the evidence may be added to historical geographical facts external to the scriptures. The distance from Israel to the promised land was shorter by the Atlantic than the Pacific, and the expertise of the Phoenician mariners was oriented west, not east, into the Indian and Pacific Oceans. Quote, in my view, that they traveled via the Atlantic is certain. OK, Doctor, this is the only thing him and I agree on. OK, this is it, but I appreciate it. He’s starting to wake up. It’s all good. So, We have, in Florida and Georgia, a culture called the Deptford phase. Now, this is all done by non-LDS people way before I was even born, 40s in the 50s, early 60s. I was born in the 40s, I’m not that old. But anyway, We got 3 hotspots here. Any one of these 3 could be Lehi’s Landing, any one of them, because it’s solid Hopewell. This is the oldest Hopewell in all of North America. Imagine that. The oldest who got here first, Leehiy got here first. This is the oldest. It’s Florida. OK, and the middle blue star. Right below him is the 30-degree latitude line and falls on a place called Saint John’s and that’s a, that’s a whole, you know, another story. OK, just hang on. So here we are, Olas hope well, bingo now. This is really cool. It came to pass. We did begin to till the earth and we began to plant seeds. We did put all our seeds in the earth from the land of Jerusalem. Now, that should tell you, wherever they went, the land had to be climate zones had to be very similar or the same as Jerusalem, right? I mean, there, and this also tells us that they’re planning when they arrived, they had to get here in the Spring of the year. Following the Atlantic crossing, leaving from the Arabian Peninsula, we know the time it would have taken them to get across. They would have had to leave between the end of October and mid November to be here for spring. For Florida planting because their spring down there is like January, February. OK. It’s not that big a deal. Anyway, let me just press on. So, I was sitting there thinking about that and I thought, gosh, I wonder what’s the latitude of Jerusalem. Well, the latitude right here, at that top side is 31.7, OK? So I thought, well, what’s the latitude of Jerusalem? Went across, big old globe, bingo. Jerusalem, 31.7 degrees. It’s the same.

[45:04] Michelle: So you’re saying that’s important because they would have known how to

[45:06] Wayne May: plant the seeds, the same plan.

[45:10] Michelle: OK,

[45:11] Wayne May: yeah.

[45:14] Michelle: And what’s the altitude and the I mean the humidity difference? Do we

[45:20] spk_2: know? I

[45:21] Wayne May: don’t know.

[45:22] spk_2: OK, there you go.

[45:25] Michelle: That’s interesting. I, I guess it would be too long of a time period to do a botanical study to see if there are any plants that came.

[45:34] Wayne May: That’s already been done, but it’s another story.

[45:36] spk_2: OK, OK.

[45:37] Wayne May: All right. I got you covered. OK, I’ll just ask you the questions as they come up. I appreciate you letting me all to me, OK. All right. This is a Roman ship nail. For ships. Not a big head. When they started crucifying people. Because the hand would tear out so easily. They begin using very large nails cause the large head would cut the whole hand, you see, so you couldn’t tear out. And these are, this is also used as crucifix nails. Well, guess what we find in the waters of northern Wisconsin? Ship nails. This guy’s a diver. He’s got a whole pailful because he’s found a wreck out in the superior waters. There’s a ship nails, a pile of hardened copper ship nails.

[46:30] Michelle: Can these be carbon dated? Do we know how old they

[46:32] spk_2: are? I can’t really that,

[46:33] Wayne May: but now he could do more on the ship, but he’s doing that himself. He won’t tell me where the ship is just yet. Oh, OK. We’ll get there. We’ll get there. All right. Now, I always then go look for history. Of the Native Americans, can they add anything to Lehigh, the anchors, the Cory stones, the ship nails? Do they have anything to add? You know, I, I have to be very honest with you, even though a lot of times I search, I come up empty. A lot of things I’ve found have been given to me. Spiritually, I, I’ve been told, look at this book, turn that page. I mean, it’s literally been like people have all these neat genealogy stories I’ve got it, and this is one of them. This is one of them. This is, this is gonna blow your mind when you read about the Algonquin oral history about Florida. Look at this. Here’s your reference. It’s not from Wayne May. This is where I found it. 1819. Book of Mormon isn’t even out yet. That’s a big deal. That should resonate. Look what they say. Limestone quarries in Florida are believed to have provided anchors for ancient international sea trade. What? International sea trade?

[47:42] Michelle: International. What is that? Yeah, what does that mean?

[47:45] Wayne May: John Johnson, Indian agent of the Shawnee, reported in Algonquin tradition, they came to north from across the Atlantic Ocean. Oh my. And that white people using iron tools, oh, another big, another big no no inhabited Florida. Homer said the Phoenicians anchored their ships with help of the pierced stones. Again, another point for the anchors. This comes of the Native Americans were crying out loud.

[48:10] Michelle: OK, is this

[48:11] spk_2: in our history books?

[48:14] Wayne May: No.

[48:15] Michelle: OK. Question? No, I think this is interesting. I guess it wouldn’t be, I mean, we don’t learn the specific of history unless you major in it. So you’re saying even people that like go to study North American geography or archaeology or ancient civilizations aren’t taught these things. No. OK.

[48:34] Wayne May: I’m waiting to write the first history book in North America. That’s what I’m waiting for. OK. I’m gonna show you a whole bunch of artifacts. They’re all Book of Mormon support, all found here, and they’re basically Hopewell. At 550, 400 AD. Here comes the Hopewell, right? artifacts. OK. This here is called the Keystone, found in 1859 at an earthworks, which matched the Book of Alma, which we’ll get to that, has Hebrew writing on it. It can be read and it’s on all four sides. And when you look at it, I always hope I’d find something to say Maiden Zarahemla, you know, I keep hoping, but anyway, here’s the, here’s what it says on all four sides. Phrases that we hear in other places, yes.

[49:26] Michelle: OK. So I have two questions really quickly. I should have asked them before, but just, just really quickly, this idea that there was no, um, civilization or like, um, evolved civilization, whatever complex civilization in the Americas, does that just grow out of like the Andrew Jackson manifest destiny that, you know, like, is that part of our myth that We have to minimize the um indigenous peoples in order to justify ourselves.

[49:55] Wayne May: You’re doing good. You’re yeah and so you got dumb down there see if we have any ties with these red people, if any of them can claim sovereignty to a nation in Europe. Or Asia, then we got a problem. We got to deal with it.

[50:10] Michelle: Yeah, or if we can’t dehumanize them to make ourselves, you know, feel, feel better. So that’s interesting because culture has changed so much that we look at manifest destiny and those ideas with horror at this point. So why do you think the, um, that idea has stuck around it? Like, is it because, I mean, why aren’t more people Open to studying ancient North American or South American civilizations. Well, I mean, even in South America, we know about the, the temples and things, so why are we so shut down to North America? Well,

[50:42] Wayne May: it’s, it’s come through our education system, for one thing, and I, I, I got, I mean, I, I don’t put out things a lot of on a spiritualal very often, but I gotta tell you, Satan’s done a good plan up here. He’s, he’s really, he has shut us down up here big time, and it’s just sad. I mean, it’s unbelievable the stuff that’s been lost, and it doesn’t have to be, it’s everywhere.

[51:04] Michelle: And it is interesting because even just all of those. Um, anchor stones that, you know, in your theory they’re anchor stones. It would be interesting to see other people studying them and coming up with theories. So it’s interesting that they’re just ignored when there are artifacts that that should be. So, OK. And then, and then, anyway, I, I’m just finding that fascinating that why would people be pushing on that. And my other question with these artifacts. So, um, another person I talked to talked to me about, I think it was the Michigan artifacts that were known to be forgeries. So how, what testing. Can be done to know what is genuine and what could be forgeries, because I think that’s how people like to just ignore a lot of this stuff. Basically

[51:45] Wayne May: organic matter for one thing, which we don’t have much of because they were found by just regular people. 27 counties, the Michigan artifacts came out of 27 counties, over 10,000 artifacts. Some say as high as 20. And they’ve all been declared fraud because it depicts religious scenes from the Bible, and it depicts scenes that we don’t know what they are. And on there, there’s a mixed bag of the language script. There’s a Syrian, there’s Egyptian, and there’s Coptic. The same Coptic that you find between the paws of the Great Sphinx that was translated. And figure it out. Coptic and that again that’s another whole story. I got a whole talk on a Michigantas is it’s the largest archaeological tragedy in North America, and I, I beat that one very good, um, because it’s sad.

[52:33] Michelle: OK, so, so I guess you that work is being done to try to determine what is genuine and what is uh

[52:39] Wayne May: for a very limited, limited way.

[52:42] Michelle: OK, all right, I’ll let you continue. I just, these are some of the questions that I want to get deeper into, OK.

[52:52] Wayne May: We find concrete.

[52:54] Michelle: OK.

[52:56] Wayne May: Um, where we find this, mostly, we find it underneath the mound, where they, they built like they had a house and for some reason when the, when the fellow died, they, they, they would put him in there and they would burn his house down over his burial. We found that the floors of these houses are concrete. And then in some of the mound builder books, and the old ones, 1800s, Uh, they found a large mound, 2030 footer, and some of them had a cap of concrete. They had to use sledgehammer to break the cap before they get to the dirt to start, you know, excavating. So, it’s here, it’s here. And this is, this is right at a, at a, at the Mound City. Archaeologists show this to you, but you gotta ask for it. It’s not on display.

[53:40] Michelle: OK, so you

[53:41] Wayne May: don’t have to do with it. Well, you know, OK.

[53:44] Michelle: So, OK, so I’m gonna ask a couple more questions. Some people might be going crazy because they know a lot more about this than I do. Other people, though, might be brand new to this, even more than I am because I have some familiarity with it, limited. But, so the mound builders, you know, are the hopeful. People, do we know what they were building the mounds for? Cause I thought they were like defensive, um, or that there was some evidence that they might have been, um, like, like, what is it when Captain Moron is building up all of the defenses, I’ve heard people compare them to that. Why would they cap it over with concrete? Like, like, do you have theories about

[54:14] Wayne May: what that would be a mound.

[54:16] Michelle: OK, that

[54:17] Wayne May: was I’m gonna, I’m gonna show you the

[54:19] Michelle: forts. OK, all right. So they built mounds for different reasons and they burial mounds was one of the purposes.

[54:25] Wayne May: That’s right. And some of the mounds are just built up so you can put a wooden tower on top of that just to watch.

[54:31] Michelle: OK, which, yep, all of these things do sound reminiscent of the Book of Mormon, so I’m so I’m catching the um, yeah, OK, all right.

[54:42] Wayne May: They’ll tell you there’s no smelting in North America until Christopher Columbus gets here. Absolutely baloney. We’ve got 13 smelters just in Ohio. This guy here has on his farm in Virginia. He paid for the university to come there and it was all done through the university. All done the right way, hands on academia. Look at the date, 150 AD Ion in North America, smelting. And that’s an iron bar right there, OK?

[55:13] Michelle: OK. And do we need steel as well? Do we need steel in the Book of Mormon or just iron?

[55:19] Wayne May: No, steel.

[55:20] Michelle: OK, and OK, I guess I’ll get to that. All right.

[55:23] Wayne May: Now, up here on the top right, that’s slag. slag off the smelting process. When it solidifies, it it’s really quite pretty. It’s a beautiful green color. It’s slick like a tile, but only man can make slag. It’s not made by nature. So if you find that, you’re on top of a furnace. pictures on the left, that’s an iron ax head still in a clay mold. I have that. I show that at times at my shows. In the bottom, the bottom right is a brick from one of the smelters where the slag only exists on one side. OK. I have all 4 of these pieces in my house. Wow, they don’t get preserved out in the wild, because people still could go there, these things aren’t protected, OK?

[56:07] Michelle: It’s just crazy that no one’s looking for these things. I mean, it’s hard to understand that. OK.

[56:14] Wayne May: OK, let’s go on. Now, This is really important. This is Mound 25. Mound 25 was excavated. And this guy here, Case and Carr, are archaeologists, and they’re, they are Talking about their peers. They did the excavation. He said, These excavations from the 1840s to 1920s, keyword unpublished information. I mean, I’m trying to answer your questions here on site layouts, features, artifacts, skeletal series from these investigations and some later ones have discouraged the analysis and cultural interpretation of the material legacy of the Hopewell, Ohio people. In other words, they’re holding back information. From the public they won’t let it out. Well, this guy squealed on him and and he’s, he’s one of my heroes because I’ve talked to this guy. Let me show you. Here’s what they found. This is mound 25, 69 copper and iron, those are axes, a kelt. 92 copper and iron breastplates, breastplates, armor.

[57:33] Michelle: Yeah, so this is the evidence that they always say doesn’t exist of

[57:36] Wayne May: Here’s, here’s what I can prove. If I could put you in a car, and we could start in in eastern Kansas and in every museum all the way to Western New York. OK. You will see these copper artifacts, the breastplate, you’ll see head plates. And axes, you will never, never see an iron artifact. On display never. And I’ll bet you any kind of money. You want to gamble on, I’ll lay it down. I’ll match your money. I’ll take it. You’ll lose every time.

[58:10] Michelle: So, OK, how could it, so this is where we get into the like conspiracy theory, blah blah blah blah.

[58:16] Wayne May: I hate to go that far, but I’m, it’s not here we have the evidence,

[58:22] Michelle: right? So why would, what would keep some museum from displaying something,

[58:27] Wayne May: right? Because it shows sophistication. It shows higher culture. It goes back to your manifest destiny, leans into that. The Indians have to say dumb down. They have to dumb down.

[58:38] Michelle: Yeah, I understand that. I’m just wondering why somebody wouldn’t go get those things and start displaying them. I mean, you’re doing it,

[58:46] Wayne May: but. Well, the Smithsonian has got a big fist on a lot of people.

[58:50] Michelle: OK,

[58:52] Wayne May: and was all set up by John Wesley Powell. I, I can show you right out of his own journals that they publish. That intentionally found anterior to the arrival of Christopher Columbus. Has to be put aside.

[59:08] Michelle: OK, that’s so interesting. Why doesn’t someone do write an academic paper on John Wesley Powell and point that out. It’s just amazing to me that this would continue. That seems unbelievable. OK,

[59:20] Wayne May: welcome to my world.

[59:22] Michelle: I, yeah, right, right, yeah. OK.

[59:25] Wayne May: All right, let’s go on. Here’s, here’s axes, iron.

[59:29] Michelle: And these are all pre, pre, um,

[59:32] Wayne May: Hopewell,

[59:34] Michelle: yeah, these are Hopewell, and yet they are not. I just, it’s so sad. We want to know about our own land. This is crazy. OK, OK.

[59:43] Wayne May: Now for Nephi talks about pearls. Here’s two mounds of 48,000 pearls and 100,000 pearls, all fresh water. You see? So on their clothing. The Hopewell did not wear buckskin. They wore cloth. We’ve got samples of cloth at the Columbus Museum in Ohio. You can go see Hopewell fabric.

[1:00:04] Michelle: What did they use? They, they weren’t growing cotton. What was, what was their Oh,

[1:00:10] Wayne May: it’s all kind of natural fibers that they, they made themselves. It’s all explained out there. I can’t even begin

[1:00:14] spk_2: to tell you. OK

[1:00:17] Wayne May: and then these guys are pretty racy. They got, we got bright colors and, you know, like, whoa, you know, it’s, it’s not what you see. The,

[1:00:23] Michelle: the what does it talk about the finery in the Book of Mormon linen linen, yes.

[1:00:30] Wayne May: OK. And, and the reason the cloth is preserved is because, uh, the only cloth they have, uh, a large piece of copper has to be laying on top of it. So you got your body, your body’s dressed. If you bury a soldier with his breastplate, this cloth is gonna survive because the carbonate off the copper, everything else is gone. It survives. That’s where they get it. That’s where they get it, OK?

[1:00:53] Michelle: All right.

[1:00:53] Wayne May: Pearls, we got pearls, oil lamps. Every lamp here is from the Mediterranean except one. You want to guess? I always ask my crowd to guess, but that’s OK. Here it is.

[1:01:05] Michelle: OK, I’m guessing

[1:01:06] Wayne May: 4 is Ohio.

[1:01:10] Michelle: Yeah, it’s shaped a little

[1:01:11] Wayne May: differently than 1 or 2.

[1:01:13] Michelle: No, no, it doesn’t. It’s just as. OK.

[1:01:16] Wayne May: Yeah, it’s out of Ohio. I mean, come on guy, and this isn’t the only one. If I show you one, I can show you 5 or 6.

[1:01:26] Michelle: Right. So is the theory that someone brought it from the Mediterranean, put it in Ohio? It’s like, like, like, can we trace the provenance of the, of these artifacts to see what,

[1:01:35] Wayne May: what a sample off, off the plate and and test the clay. Tell where the clay was made here or it was brought over. They could be there. I own number 4. I own. I don’t want anybody to drill into it. OK. I mean, I would think about it, I guess, maybe I would think about it. I would consider it. But my point is you could take number 4 and put it in a museum anywhere in the Mediterranean. No know the difference, OK?

[1:01:58] Michelle: Right, right, which is why, which is why it would be neat to show the provenance how we know that it’s North American.

[1:02:04] Wayne May: This is dug up by a farmer, OK. I have an antique store. They get stuff from Amish because Amish are still walking behind the plow. They see what rolls up. One big guys in the tractor, they’re driving. They, they can’t see anything behind them. And I go there. I, this is how I got this. I got this from an Amish farmer because this guy saves stuff. He calls me and when I got 6 items blah, blah, blah. I I shoot down to that store and I don’t tell you where that store is.

[1:02:33] Michelle: Amazing. OK.

[1:02:36] Wayne May: Mhm. How about that? The official word for this in academia is fanciful pitchfork.

[1:02:47] Michelle: Not menorah, that’s How old, how old are menorahs? They’re, they’re very old, aren’t they? Like,

[1:02:54] Wayne May: and the Potawatomy of Indiana and Michigan that own this stone, you ask them, OK, what can you tell me? They’ll tell you, this is a symbol of our ancient ancestors.

[1:03:09] Michelle: So the Potawa me don’t claim it’s a fanciful pitchfork that, but we still nobody’s gone back and questioned any of this. wow.

[1:03:20] spk_2: OK.

[1:03:21] Wayne May: OK. This is a good one. This is the Bat Creek stone. This was on Cherokee lands. It was dug up by the Smithsonian under controlled conditions, so, you know, it wasn’t found by accident, no farmer turned it over. They dug it up. And what’s neat about this, this is the way it’s been on display. A gal by the name of Henriette Mertz, who is the Mainstay for all our Michigan artifact information, which that’s later. She saw this in a in a book or a magazine like this, and she took this and she turned it upside down and she said, this is Paleo-Hebrew. So she calls up this guy, Cyrus Gordon, who is the top epigrapher in America at this time, well respected in Europe. He calls up the Smithsonian and they get him in there and he’s allowed to examine the stone. And he says, yes, if you turn the stone the other way around, it’s Paleo-Hebrew. And the part that broke off, he said, all I can say right what he has so far says for Judah, but he can’t tell you the first part because it’s been broken. OK. And this has been identified at 100 BC to 100 AD in the mound it came out of in East Tennessee.

[1:04:42] Michelle: OK.

[1:04:43] Wayne May: All right. Now, Hold on. That’s right side up. Here’s why they’re able to test the stone so easy. You see the two hash marks in the upper right-hand corner of the bottom pitcher? That’s where the person’s hand trawl struck it when they’re actually digging it out of the earth. OK. See, the good news is that makes a scratch in the patina. Now those two scratches are compared with the the patina in the letters, and the gap is huge.

[1:05:14] Michelle: age it’s not a, it’s not a forgery. This

[1:05:16] Wayne May: is, it’s not a forgery. And yet. Ha Even though all that has been given to the Smithsonian, it’s still on display upside down. Oh, I mean, it’s just like, you know, I, I’m surprised I’m just stressed out and died by now. I just. Uh,

[1:05:33] Michelle: so the Smithsonian, OK, I wanna, I wanna point this out for people. The Smithsonian is putting this on display, which means the Smithsonian agrees that this is, um, An actual artifact from Hopewell artifact, right? So they do have to acknowledge that we have artifacts, and they do acknowledge that they just misrepresent more recent important findings about and they, you know,

[1:06:00] Wayne May: I, I, I’ve had guys go so far because they’ve read the Book of Mormon and they say, can you imagine? I heard a guy once say, remember Marion G. Romney was running to be president, you know, years back. I heard an archaeo, I’m gonna tell you this is the gospel. I heard an archaeologist tell me, can you imagine if we elected the guy to be president of this country who believes there were synagogues here in 100 and 200 AD?

[1:06:23] Michelle: Oh, you mean when Mitt Romney was running, not Marian G. Romney. Mitt Romney. Yeah, I was like, no, I don’t remember that, but I remember Mitt. OK, yeah, I’m

[1:06:32] Wayne May: sorry, yeah. Oh

[1:06:35] Michelle: gosh that’s

[1:06:35] Wayne May: all

[1:06:35] Michelle: right. OK, OK, interesting. I don’t know if he does, OK, that’s interesting. OK,

[1:06:41] Wayne May: right now. There’s more. Let me show you this one. This is a real killer. I am not an epigrapher. Yes, I can recognize certain letters, but I am not a piggrafer. This coin up here on the upper left, is shekel, as it says, from the Jewish war. Down on the right is the same one, except it’s better shape. This one, it was blurry, I, cause I got it from this, where it was at. This final report, I had to give the reference. I want to know what the reference was, OK? So, I looked at this and I saw letters on here. We’re looking the same as the Bad Creek letters. OK. So, here’s the Bat Creek stone. I did a reverse, so you could see the letters. Now I’m gonna do a reverse of the coin, and I’m gonna compare the letters because Cyrus Gordon said these letters are all legit. The Jews say on the coin, these letters are all legit, right? Mhm. Here’s the coin now, let’s take a look. Look at that one. How about that one? How about that one. How about that one? How about that? Oops, went too far. The last one didn’t come out, but there you go. What do you think?

[1:07:52] Michelle: That’s very interesting.

[1:07:54] Wayne May: Isn’t that something? I mean, I’m just out here fooling around on the internet.

[1:07:59] Michelle: Uh-huh

[1:07:59] Wayne May: Just look at that. It’s the same.

[1:08:02] Michelle: Yeah, that is fascinating

[1:08:03] Wayne May: is accepted as real, but the Bat Creek stone is not accepted as real, yet it matches the coin.

[1:08:10] Michelle: And what is the reason that the Bat Creek stone isn’t accepted?

[1:08:13] spk_2: Well,

[1:08:14] Wayne May: because it shows that people are here from across the pond.

[1:08:17] Michelle: Oh, I mean, they don’t have it there isn’t like a scientific explanation of it.

[1:08:22] Wayne May: No, before Columbus. That’s still being taught to become an archaeologist, they’re still being taught nobody here before 1492.

[1:08:30] Michelle: Sure. I was just wondering if they had a um If they even just if they had a scientific reason that they referred

[1:08:38] Wayne May: to a scientific thumbs down. OK,

[1:08:43] Michelle: OK.

[1:08:45] Wayne May: This here is called the Decalog stone. This was found in 1860, and it has a complete rendition of the 10 Commandments on the face, the sides, and the back of that stone, which I, you know, if I had it, I could roll and show it to you. 10 Commandments, the whole thing there. And above that guy’s head are 3, this is all Hebrew, by the way. Our three letters that say Moshe, Moshe is Moses. That’s it. So, now it’s very unusual because, you know, Jews don’t do that kind of thing. I mean, they don’t put, you know, people together on it’s a big no no. All right? So anyway, but this whole thing was discussed at the Journal of Discourses and elder Pratt delivered a talk on this whole stone in the Salt Lake Tabernacle, and you can go read about it, and they totally accepted this as legitimate.

[1:09:33] Michelle: OK, OK.

[1:09:35] Wayne May: Now, what happened is, this is called Black Hebrew, and Black Hebrew was used only a very small window that they can tell as of today, and they’re saying it’s in that 100 BC to 100 AD area uh around the temple, and they actually found Black Hebrew at the temple site, during one of the archaeological digs. That’s why we know it’s legit. They found Black Hebrew, uh, on the internet, it’s called monumental Hebrew. We’ve always called it Black Hebrew from the, from the 1800 days, guys, but monumental Hebrew. OK. All right, now. Let me show you this. I’m in. Rome, going through the museums about 10 years ago. And I see these guys here and uh um this right here right is in in the um in the Vatican. I’m in the Vatican Museum.

[1:10:26] Michelle: Oh, OK, they’ve got this stuff

[1:10:29] Wayne May: and right away I see something absolutely wow, terrific, and I’ll point it out to you. Once you look at that guy, once you look at this guy. Now, I’m gonna make him big so you can see him close up. Now remember the Decalo stone I just showed you, the 10 Commandments stone. I’m gonna stick that right in the middle.

[1:10:49] Michelle: Well. You know, how big are all of these? Are they similar sizes? Um, or I guess they, I guess that doesn’t matter. They could have large and small, so it’s OK. You don’t have to take

[1:11:01] Wayne May: about 9 inches,

[1:11:03] Michelle: the ones in the, um, the, the, the ones in the

[1:11:09] Wayne May: size,

[1:11:10] Michelle: OK, they’re smaller than they look.

[1:11:12] Wayne May: I mean what a what a parallel parallels. I mean I knew that these are the same, but I can say, wow, look at these things. So it’s like these guys went to the same, the same sculpt school, you know, I don’t, yeah, it is interesting that it just, you know, makes my day to see all that stuff. And of course the Book of Mormon ether in particular talks about. Three types of these guys, right? We find them all over the Midwest and they’re in places and positions where they don’t have to be 10,000 BC when we’re told they’re all gone by 10,000 BC. Well, not according to Hopewell. This here, the top here with the elephant, the black, that’s a gorgette that was worn around the neck. You’ve got a mastodon standing there and you got guys in the picture. Down below there’s an elephant pipe. Hopewell’s made effigy pipes. The only Hopewell made FG pipes, and here’s my effigy pipe.

[1:12:06] Michelle: Wow, that’s it. Look at that.

[1:12:08] spk_2: Yeah.

[1:12:10] Wayne May: OK. You go to an artifact show day, you want to buy one of these, you better take your checkbook. OK, 10 to 15,000. Whoa, yeah, highly sought after, highly sought after. But here we got elephant pipes out of Iowa. There’s two of them, and then we got carvings and the one on the top right with the green circle. That for me is just, I mean, Yeah. This is like wow, I mean, well,

[1:12:38] Michelle: let me, so let me ask you, so I’ve heard, you know, I’ve heard this, the problem of elephants, for example, and horses, but, so, um, I guess, I guess one of the arguments would be we would find bones, but maybe what you would say is nobody’s looked is that. Well,

[1:12:54] spk_2: I got, we got bones.

[1:13:02] Wayne May: Oh, we have OK, I’ll I’ll just keep listening. OK. OK, the real giveaway here is this mound in the upper right-hand corner, OK. That whole thing It’s classified as gerdite. Well, how do the Grubis know what a bunch of bones look like to make a mastodon? That’s an effigy made out of dirt. You, you can’t look at the bones and say, well, we know what this guy looks like, right? But yet there it is. The only reason this is preserved because the guy who owned it was a doctor of medicine. And he had uh he had enough wherewithal. He went on, he, this is actually a painting in his house he painted this thing because Ohio guys came in and excavated it, and they didn’t put the mastodon back together. You can go there today, but it’s just a big pile of dirt. It’s called the Turner mound, the Turner

[1:13:46] Michelle: mound. OK, so

[1:13:48] spk_2: that’s it

[1:13:49] Wayne May: should have got put back together. Yeah, they do others, not here, not supposed to be here, you know.

[1:13:56] Michelle: So this is, this is adding to the, um, the, the evidence that we have actual bones. In addition to bones, we have that is what you’re saying. OK. All right. Very interesting.

[1:14:07] Wayne May: That’s right here. This guy is another doctor, Frederick, the early guys, 1830s all the way up to 18, I’d say after the Civil War, the guys doing the work here are usually men of high profession, medical field is high. A lot of doctors, a lot of ministers. they’ve got the time, they got the money to go and do it. Everybody else is in they’re, they’re plowing the fields. They don’t have time to do stuff, OK? So here, this right here, I have before to suggested that the ancient mound builders were contemporary with the mastodon, and that in all probability they tamed and used the powerful beast to haul heavy burdens. Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. I will give you my evidence for such a belief. It is a fact admitted by all familiar with the prehistoric discoveries that the bones of the mastodon and those of the mound builders are found in the same localities in about the same state of preservation.

[1:15:03] Michelle: OK.

[1:15:07] Wayne May: The copper relic formerly referred to found on the Allegheny River with the form of an elephant engraved upon it represented in harness. That first attracted my attention to that subject.

[1:15:21] Michelle: Whoa, OK. So has anybody done work to refute this, or do they just ignore

[1:15:26] spk_2: it? Yes, we have

[1:15:27] Wayne May: 111 anthropologist has done this, a geologist, a paleontologist is the right word. Yeah, and, uh, he’s down in Cincinnati and I published his work in Ancient American magazine. He says the elephants were here. Now, he’s the only guy and boy, he’s getting pounded for it. I mean, that’s what I

[1:15:43] Michelle: was gonna ask you out of the

[1:15:45] Wayne May: mold, you know, it’s like, um. Yeah, what was it? Yeah, um. A guy took, you take like you take 100 ants, you put them in a bowl, steep bowl, OK? And they’re they are, they’re all humming around, but pretty soon one ant, he’ll start to climb out and get halfway up and what do the other ants do? They go up after him and they grab onto him and they pull him back into the pile.

[1:16:08] Michelle: Right, right, right, yeah,

[1:16:10] Wayne May: they won’t, you can’t go, you can’t go there. You can’t do it. Yeah this is interesting. So there’s elephant stuff all over. Gosh, it’s all over. It just, I’m just like I said, I show you one thing. There’s more. I’m, I’m just, I just, you know,

[1:16:25] Michelle: scratching the surface.

[1:16:27] Wayne May: You want to see cattle? Book of Mormon talks about cattle. This is a cave out of Arkansas. And you know this is like it’s cattle because he’s still alive today in India. OK, it’s the

[1:16:40] spk_2: same thing.

[1:16:41] Michelle: Yeah, that’s amazing. No, so

[1:16:43] Wayne May: here we go. Scenario. One or two things happened here. I’m, I’m gonna say 3. Guys from India. Got blown off course, and they ended up in American continent, and somehow they got across the heart of our continent to the Arkansas River, and they were so homesick, they carved an image of a of a cow to make them or they wanted to have a steak so bad, they carved the cow thinking about boy, wouldn’t it be nice to have a steak. You know, or the 3rd 1 is some guy just made it up.

[1:17:19] Michelle: OK, because we know that this is ancient. This isn’t modern, this,

[1:17:23] spk_2: yes, absolutely.

[1:17:25] Wayne May: OK. Horses. This is really good. Doctor Stephen Jones out of BYU and two other scientists, they led the work on this. Equa samples that date in the time frame of 6000 BC to 1481 AD well since the last ice age and all before Columbus, that all of these radiometrically dated Eque horse remains were found in North America. Using state of the art dating methods, we, along with other researchers have found radiometrically dated evidence for the existence of horses in North America long after the Ice Age, 10,000 BC and before the arrival of Chris.

[1:18:13] Michelle: OK,

[1:18:15] spk_2: this is a little

[1:18:15] Wayne May: bit scientifically. Yeah. Who cares, right? Nobody cares if we should be Mormons. Because it supports the book. That’s my point. It supports the book. That’s why I do what I do. Uh, it really hurts me when I, I bump into people. Oh, my uncle Harry, he left the church. Why leave the church? Oh, he said that there’s nothing in Central America, and it’s so, the book’s gotta be a fairy tale, but nobody looks this way. Nobody looks to the east.

[1:18:44] Michelle: Fascinating. OK.

[1:18:47] Wayne May: OK, roll on. Oh, this is a good one. When you go through the museums, you’re gonna see birds like this. And I, I used to say, and I actually got them to change this at the, at the Mound City. You used to say, falcon, bird of prey. I said, come on guys. That’s a parrot And, and arguing for a long time. And finally, one day I walked in, one day I walked in, and it was Bill. Bill was a, a volunteer that worked there at the museum. He was there, he’s been there as long as I’ve been doing this, and he’s retired now, unfortunately. When I walked in, I had a bus group of 50 and he lined us all up, he made us all stay there at the front car, I have something I have to make a major announcement. Wayne’s gonna love this. He said, We finally got them to take off the word falcon bird of prey. Oh yeah, yeah, they took it down because I, I convinced him that he started working on the, the archaeologist, the curator of the museum, and finally they agreed and they took it down. So, so why, why parrots? We find not only script sculptures like this out of copper, but we find the remains of parrots and parakeets in the Hopewell burial mounds. What does that tell us about our climate?

[1:20:02] Michelle: Oh, that it was much more humid and much,

[1:20:04] Wayne May: right? It wasn’t like today. It wasn’t like today at all. And I can show that to you in a different presentation. And the answer to that, it comes from the Vikings. So I got, I gotta leave that. I’m just leave it alone, right? So here’s the area where the, the whole area, and that’s where the parakeets lived anciently. OK. The last one alive in North America was living in 1939 in the tip of Florida, and that parakeet today is Extinct, unfortunately.

[1:20:32] Michelle: OK.

[1:20:33] Wayne May: Go on, year round. And we have to have sheep if we’re gonna do the law of Moses. We got sheep bones, Hopewell, Kip Island, lots of sheep bones. So the sheep were here. That’s my point. We got sheep. This is a good one. The Lamanites would follow the beasts. Now, they never used the word migration, but it says they’re falling from the land south into the land north and vice versa. My point is, they are following migrating beasts.

[1:21:07] Michelle: Yeah, following the beast sounds pretty obvious, uh-huh.

[1:21:11] Wayne May: South of the Rio Grande, Central America, South America, they have no migrating beasts. This has to be our buffalo.

[1:21:22] Michelle: But what about, what about at that time period, like you just showed us parakeets. Do we know, can we go back to see what the anthropological or what the What’s the word for the study of animals? Do we know what it was at that time period?

[1:21:34] Wayne May: I’m not sure what you’re asking me.

[1:21:36] Michelle: I guess I’m, I’m wondering like the buffalo, the bison was at the time when the, um, you know, Jackson era. Yeah, what about when the climate was so different yeah they

[1:21:47] Wayne May: they got bones with Hopewell arrowheads sticking out. OK, OK, not a problem. This was the main, this is the main food source, right? Yeah, OK. And this one here, almost 1611, after many days or dead bodies heaped upon the face of the earth and they’re covered with a shell covering of dirt. This is what a body looks like. This is men, women and children.

[1:22:11] Michelle: Where was this?

[1:22:12] Wayne May: This was in Kentucky.

[1:22:14] Michelle: When was this found and why don’t we know about this?

[1:22:17] spk_2: Well, why do we know

[1:22:18] Michelle: about any of this? I mean, that was rhetorical, but when, when was this found?

[1:22:23] Wayne May: In 1950s.

[1:22:24] Michelle: Whoa, this is an ancient burial mound in the Americas. I mean, we do,

[1:22:30] Wayne May: there’s lots, there’s lots. OK, OK, so it’s gone. But behold how great their disappointment that the Lamanites, the Nephites had dig up a ridge of earth round about them, which was so high that the Lamites could not cast their stones and their arrows at them. Now, the key word here is casting stones, casting arrows. Let’s take a look. What’s going on here? What’s going on here? This is how you cast an arrow. It’s that,

[1:22:57] Michelle: yeah, uh-huh. This is

[1:22:59] Wayne May: the weapon of the Lamanites. It was still in use on first contact, but it had dwindled because the bow and arrow is becoming more popular, but If we know the Nephites developed the bow and arrow or had it obviously because in Heelman. They shot arrows. You see, bottom shot arrows. So we know you’re drawing the bow lame mites are casting the arrow during their. OK.

[1:23:28] Michelle: Oh, that’s interesting, and it doesn’t reverse. I don’t, I mean, I haven’t looked into any of this, but do we have, we have um Lamanites in the Book of Mormons shooting arrows or

[1:23:37] Wayne May: I’m sure they picked it up. Now, if you go into academia, you go into academia, you say, when was the bow and arrow uh first used in North America? you 600 AD.

[1:23:49] Michelle: Oh, why did they say that? Because they haven’t even done the archaeological. That’s how

[1:23:53] Wayne May: they. I, I, you know, see, so the Book of Mormon is in conflict with academia constantly,

[1:24:00] Michelle: constantly. Well, sure, yeah, but, but people would say that that’s evidence that the Book of Mormon is fictional, but, um, you know, that, so that’s a That’s the challenge, right, is who’s who’s wrong?

[1:24:11] Wayne May: Who’s right. That’s right. They’re everywhere. They’re everywhere. Here’s a whole bunch of pipes look like. That’s why I showed you that pipe. They’re absolutely beautiful. He’s my pipe.

[1:24:20] Michelle: Yeah, that’s amazing.

[1:24:22] Wayne May: They’re absolutely gorgeous. Now, by the way, uh, Squire and Davis pulled out over 2000 of artifacts and about 3 or 400 were these beautiful pipes, and these are all in England, by the way, because nobody wanted them. So a rich guy in England bought square. Aaron Davis’s collection and they took it back to the London Museum and it’s there and you only see about maybe 2 or 3% of the collection. It’s all boxed up and put away, but this is what’s on display in England. Hopewell pipes in England, uh, they love them.

[1:24:52] Michelle: They’re, OK,

[1:24:54] Wayne May: yeah. They’re beautiful. They’re beautiful. It’s gone. Now this is typical Hopewell Hopewell stuff. Gorgettes, arrowheads, copper, copper blades, big axes, stone hammers, and I’m gonna show you some more. This is called hammered. This is a process that we’ve lost. We don’t know how they did this, but when they this cold hammer process, these guys are, I’m not gonna say as hard as iron, but as far as killing a person, they’ll do the job just as well. Let’s put it that way, but cold hammered and we got lots of swords.

[1:25:28] Michelle: Wow.

[1:25:30] Wayne May: And not just swords, we have scimeters, the curved ones. Uh-huh. You’ll never see an iron sword because they, they’ve rusted out, and they’re gone. The crown in the Midwest loves iron. It’ll just chew the heck out of it. It’s very rare to find iron, but it’s here, but it’s limited, very limited. Here’s a nice copper one. The Roman short sword that they used to conquer their empire was no more than 12 inches long. A lot of people don’t realize that. And here’s a 12-inch sword.

[1:26:03] Michelle: Mhm. OK. OK.

[1:26:05] Wayne May: I love this one. This is Montana. Montana. Look at those artifacts. Look at that sword on the left, the handle. Look how big that middle one is. Oh my gosh, now, here’s what’s really cool. I want you to take a real good look at this one, the handle. handle. A friend of mine was in Jerusalem and matter of fact, he sent me this image from Jerusalem on his phone because he was in an antique store looking at neat stuff. There’s Jerusalem. There’s my North Dakota. Whoa, are they not the same? I mean, even the fold is over and the holes and the handles, the grip. Now I can tell you that the Jerusalem sword, that’s made for lunging. It’s made for lunging. The fat blade on the bottom one, that’s made for slashing. OK, that’s the difference. That’s so I mean it’s not a mistake. They, they make that on purpose, OK. This guy here has a great story. He was walking his dog on the shoreline of Lake Superior. The tip of this sword was just sticking out of the sand. He just reached down and pulled it up out of the sand. Well, being the good Joe that he is, he, he lives on the Canadian side, I might add. He went to the Toronto Museum because they have a huge copper collection, which is really awesome. And he offered them this piece, which they don’t have. Guess what they said. They said this. Thank you for considering us and your offer is so kind, however, we have to decline your offer. He says, well, you don’t have one of these in display. What’s up? Well, Native Americans don’t make swords.

[1:27:55] spk_2: Oh my gosh.

[1:27:56] Wayne May: So they should be a replica or a fake. So, thank you, but we don’t want it.

[1:28:01] Michelle: Oh my word. So everything, I mean, it could be a replica or a fake, but test it. Yeah, like test

[1:28:08] Wayne May: it. Isn’t that crazy? Mhm, crazy. And then here’s head plates and breastplates. I’m gonna show you those what they look like. This is a head plate, uh, uh, this is the back of the head up on top all the way to the forward, uh, the curly pieces, they go over your ears, down, down to the cheek, and then those four dots, those are grommets. Their helmets were held together with a leather cap. It wasn’t like you see in our paintings like a Greek or Roman helmet. That’s just not there. This is what they did, and we know it was leather because the archaeologists, when they uncovered some of these guys. They could see the material, but it just literally crumbled before their eyes because of the age. Now, if they could have had a camera right there, you know, click, clicky click, we would have, but it just didn’t work out that way. But, uh, they said leather caps. These things are all held together with leather caps.

[1:28:57] Michelle: Wow, leather. So interesting. OK,

[1:29:00] Wayne May: breastplate. I can tell you how this was worn. Now, this doesn’t follow a man’s chest. It just kinda lays across you. Imagine taking a knotted cord and you pull it through that hole up in the corner. And then when you get up there, then you, you cinch it, pull the cord through and then you cinch all four parts and then the in the center that would stabilize your neck, your cord to go around there to stabilize the neck piece and then hold your breastplate in place. Now, the guys that really Had nice ones, there’d be 3 of these, and they’re scaled down in size, like the belly of a, of a, a, a crab or a shrimp, you know, exoskeletons, you know, one smaller and then smaller for the abdomen, like a big, like a big V. 3 beaming bing.

[1:29:49] Michelle: So they would wear separate pieces. OK.

[1:29:52] Wayne May: clothing had to be clothing for sure.

[1:29:55] Michelle: Wow.

[1:29:56] Wayne May: And this here, this will prove it. This is an arm shield, and you can’t see it very well, but this arm shield has little teeny white dots all the way around it. And those are the holes where they sewed it on to a coat. You put it on like a, like a football uniform, you know. You put it on in this small piece that laid on your collarbone right here. Oh, OK. So you get struck or you get hit in the arm, you got a chance to deflect. But these things were worn. It was a garment. They had to put it on. It wasn’t this brassy thing like you see, you know.

[1:30:27] Michelle: This seems actually way smarter, OK.

[1:30:30] Wayne May: Yeah. All right. And here is possibly an actual armband. This was found at Navo.

[1:30:41] Michelle: Wow.

[1:30:42] Wayne May: Yeah, at a crick. And we got the other two in the museum to show you what uh what they look like on, you know, this one’s been really hurt because of weather, but you can see what they look like on Canerd. Now, how far do you want me to go?

[1:30:57] Michelle: This is amazing. I’m fasting. Yeah, we can do some more. Yeah.

[1:31:02] Wayne May: Here come the forks.

[1:31:03] Michelle: I’m sorry, I’m only yawning because I just had my conference and I haven’t slept for several nights. So I’m fascinated. Don’t take it personally. I’m, I’m staying wide awake. I just am way behind on sleep, but,

[1:31:15] Wayne May: but this is, this

[1:31:16] Michelle: is amazing.

[1:31:18] Wayne May: This is an actual fort. The archaeologists here gone out to where the walls stood, and by going down to the ground, you, you find circles. What they are usually are just a stain in the soil, different color from the other soil. And then they know it’s a pulse mold. That’s where a post stood in the ground, stood up vertically. And what they have done here, based on the size, They had been built. This is what the wall would have looked like, but they, of course, they would have had a covering on it. But here’s the post, so you see the three towers, one on each end and one in the center, the big rectangles, and we’re going to see more of that.

[1:31:52] Michelle: What kind of a covering would it have had you mean just like they had,

[1:31:55] Wayne May: they had plaster and I showed you that concrete,

[1:31:58] Michelle: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[1:31:58] Wayne May: yeah, they had plaster material. They, they had plastered waterways to shoot water, I mean.

[1:32:04] Michelle: OK,

[1:32:05] Wayne May: so much stuff. Again, a lot of special sites here. I’m showing you the whole area. This is where we’re gonna find the fortifications. Mississippi Valley is heavy, the Ohio is heavy, Western New York is heavy. OK that, imagine that. Uh-huh. OK. Now, here’s the 4 types. The black and white one, you know, is the smallest ones. You’ll find those that can take in 3 acres, 4 acres, and there’s, they’re the most numerous. And then the one above it would also be a nice sized town. But then we start to see some geometry. You see the square on the, on the, on the back end there, otherwise it’s wrong. And by that big mound in the center, it looks like a, well you see the three bumps, that is mound 25 that I showed you where the iron came out of. And then you’ve got your geometrics in the lower left-hand corner. These guys had high math. I mean, It’s gonna be hard for anyone to duplicate this, and I’m gonna show you how big these are in a little bit. These are huge, huge. And then the upper, upper left-hand corner in the Book of Mormons says they built places of resort. Well, Place of resort is a fortification built with all the little towns around it, and if there’s trouble, and you think the little town can’t handle it, then you’re gonna run to the place of resort, which is always elevated up 23 to 5 or 600 ft off a high hilltop, and that whole thing then has been fortified around the edges. And that’s what you’re looking at. A hill fort, a hill fort. OK. Now, here are the key Alma, this is the one, you know, people skip Alma because of all the wars. I, I know they don’t like to read this stuff. It’s boring, but maybe if they see this, it won’t be so boring. But 48 and 8, you know, place of resort, banks of earth, walls of stone, and 49, depth of the ditch, go ditches, and then 20, this is key, the doorway, place of entrance. I’m gonna show you all this. OK. Timbers built to the height of a man, towers be erected. I just showed you a little bit of that on that wooden, but then here and then. 62 is absolutely a mind blower, and I’ll show you that last, cause it’s huge. This wall here is only 24 ft high. It was 30 ft high in its original construction, and then on top of that 30-foot of earth, there would have been a wooden palisade on top. The yellow lines represent the ditch that used to be there, that’s been filled in because this used to be a cornfield until the Ohio Archaeology Society got a hold of it. This was a cornfield. So it’s been filled back in, but that was the ditch. If you go there and you walk to the left, Uh, you’ll actually see the ditch goes off onto a ravine. You’ll see the ditch in the wall, then continuing the actual thing that’s undisturbed. So you just have to know where to go. That’s my point. Uh, that’s the short guy, that’s me. My friend Ernie is 64, so you can kind of get an idea, you know, looking at it, how tall it is, yeah, yeah. Ditches, ditches are huge. If you saw this without myself standing down there, you, you’d say, well, how big are the trees? Well, now you know how big the trees are. You know, and I, I see ditches like this. Think about Doctor Larkin’s. Report on the elephants being in harness. I see, I see our bulldozer as an elephant. I see our track hoe elephant. I see them doing the work. These things, I mean, I don’t know how people could have done this by hand without the help of something.

[1:35:26] Michelle: Yeah, I was wondering.

[1:35:27] Wayne May: OK. Here’s your covering again, Woodstockade.

[1:35:33] Michelle: How do we know, just really quickly with that last picture. So how do we know that’s not a natural geographic, you know, um, because

[1:35:41] Wayne May: the ditches, well, first of all, there’s about 150 of these around they repeat themselves and they’re done perfectly and. This isn’t just dirt thrown up. This is layered gravel and clay to make it last.er was the key.

[1:35:58] Michelle: It’s engineered. And I guess we can’t find the, um, I, I’m curious about like the natural erosive patterns that would have created these so we, so we can know that they are man-made, that they’re engineered. OK, very interesting. Thanks for answering that. OK.

[1:36:12] Wayne May: Not

[1:36:12] Michelle: a

[1:36:13] Wayne May: problem. Again, here’s the wall. You can see the post on the left side there and the post in the ground covering. OK. There you go. OK.

[1:36:23] Michelle: So I guess the other thing people would argue is say, well, sure, the Hope Hopewell built these mounds, built these ditches and built these forts, but that doesn’t mean that they were the ones that are talked about in the Book of Mormon. Is that kind of what they would say? I guess I’m trying to. Not

[1:36:35] Wayne May: really because the dates line up. OK, all right. So, once in a while they’ll find an actual wood in the stain, there’ll be a piece of wood, and that wood dates them. OK.

[1:36:50] spk_2: So

[1:36:50] Michelle: even if, even if, um, I, I, I, I really want to consider this. So even if Joseph Smith was just like inspired to some extent, but none of this is true, is geographically or historically true, or if he was making it up. He sure had a lot of things that he connected that that none of this research had been done at the time that he was alive, right?

[1:37:12] Wayne May: That’s right.

[1:37:13] Michelle: So, OK.

[1:37:14] Wayne May: When the when the Book of Mormon came out in 1830. Mhm. What I’m showing you today, I would say probably 95% of it won’t be seen until after the Civil War.

[1:37:25] Michelle: OK, and that makes sense to me, cause, OK.

[1:37:28] Wayne May: Joseph Smith should be the father of American archaeology.

[1:37:32] Michelle: That’s amazing. And

[1:37:33] Wayne May: I had my way. That’s that’s Thomas Jefferson. He made a Thomas did a good thing. He made a couple of digs. He was, he, he, he was starting to respect all the stuff that was out there. He would say, wow, this, who are these people, you know, um, even the governor, uh, Governor Clinton in New York, and I, I, I may come up, it depends on how long you want to go. Um, Governor Clinton in New York, 1812, 1813. At that time in New York, he’s saying, All these in western New York where he’s at, there’s uh over 200 fortifications. He’s in someday, someday, hopefully, we’ll find a record of these people written on. Metal.

[1:38:14] Michelle: Wow. OK, yeah, so, OK, it’s really interesting because in that same John Dehlin interview, I did say I haven’t ever seen an explanation for the Book of Mormon that I think makes more sense than the explanation Joseph Smith gave for us. So this is really, this is really interesting and helpful to me to give me a A lot more, um, because, because that’s what I said. I just, I don’t have the evidence to, to argue that it’s um so you’re the one doing the evidence. OK, this is really interesting. So, OK, yep, did you want to read I think OK, place of entrance.

[1:38:46] spk_2: All right, place of entrance.

[1:38:47] Wayne May: We’re gonna do this is a hill fort in Ross County. And look at the red circle. That is the place of entrance. He made the place of entrance like a maze.

[1:38:57] Michelle: Oh, cool. OK, so that they can track you in any of those places. Yes, uh-huh. OK.

[1:39:06] Wayne May: And then they always have a back door to escape and that’s what you see on the bottom end, the back door so they can slip out the back.

[1:39:12] Michelle: Really creating all those bottlenecks,

[1:39:15] Wayne May: the way it is on the top. That’s the approach on

[1:39:17] Michelle: the top. Wow, OK, it’s steep. Mhm. OK. And it does show even if nothing else, it shows that the people who built these were um were like geniuses at engineering and its strategy and I mean this is very um

[1:39:34] Wayne May: 72 BC Captain. So here we go. The red guys are gonna attack, the blue guys are defending. OK. Now, they can’t run down the browner. That’s elevation. The browner, that’s elevation. So only, only the green color is flat, high up. All right, so here come the red guys. They got to go through the openings. Remember they got the ditch, the banks are too high, too deep, they can’t do it. The books sometimes the red guys, they would approach that bank of earth and they tried to dig it down to cause it to collapse to get inside, but the knee fights arrows deadly. They, so they have to go in where the nephines want them to come in. We’re saying there’s no doorway there. Come on in.

[1:40:16] Michelle: That was and they’re called they

[1:40:18] Wayne May: look what they got, yeah, the crossfire.

[1:40:22] Michelle: That’s amazing.

[1:40:24] Wayne May: So if you, in order to make the next turn, you got to be in there with a lot of numbers. I mean a lot

[1:40:29] spk_2: of guys. And then

[1:40:30] Michelle: layout after layer after layer of it. It is a killing field. The guys

[1:40:34] Wayne May: to the top right, they’re really in trouble. They went the wrong way. OK, now if they still had enough guys to press all the way through, all the way through, well then at those two openings, that’s gonna be the Nephite army standing there to meet them. They’re gonna plug it up. That’s a field. It’s 10 years for the knee fights

[1:40:54] Michelle: and we have all of the evidence of this. We can see this. We can go out and see that this is what they made.

[1:41:00] Wayne May: That’s right

[1:41:00] Michelle: with those. I, OK, I see, it just makes me think like. Muna is even cooler than we thought. Like this is brilliant. That’s amazing. OK,

[1:41:11] Wayne May: there’s a lot more now. This guy here, I’ve talked to him on the phone, uh, he also was a good, a good help for Book of Mormon. You see the archaeologists back there now they’re saying all the stuff that the Hopewell built, they’re all sacred sites.

[1:41:25] Michelle: You

[1:41:26] Wayne May: just sacred site.

[1:41:27] Michelle: OK.

[1:41:28] Wayne May: They find something new. It’s a sacred site, and they talk about high priest did this, and then Tim, where do they get this stuff?

[1:41:35] Michelle: And there’s no, yeah, there’s no um literary evidence to support that or Robert

[1:41:41] Wayne May: went to a place called Pollock, Pollock earthworks that had not been touched. Diamond in the rough, that’s what I call them. He said the potworks has been under exhibition since 1999 by Robert Riordan, Wright State University, Ohio. He found a limestone walkway over 50 ft in length, extending out from one of the openings of the enclosure. Well, yeah, you got a rainy day and you got a lot of traffic. They don’t want to walk in mud. They walked on cement, limestone, slams, they made things. So, and then he says the From one of the openings of the enclosure, the enclosure itself is circular, built upon a stockade of burned, sturdy logs. This is early evidence of Hopewell Earthworks used as a Defensive enclosure. Oh, thank you, Robert. They’re starting to wake up. You see how slow it’s happening? They’re starting. They’re starting now. There’s more. Hold on. This is the Pollock Earthworks. Now, you look at, and I, I take people here, but nobody else goes here because the other guys don’t know where it’s at. I don’t tell anybody to get there. But I go to Pollock because it is in the rough. And I mean, it’s, it’s not a park. It is rough walking in, but when you get here today, uh, you’ll see this, this is the front gate here, these little, that’s redoubts, then there’s a, an incline up to the top of the twelve-acre area. But then you look off to the left and you see the little teeny creek, you look off to the right, and there’s, the water’s gone. Well, how do you defend this place? Well, you gotta think about when this happened, right? There’s the cliff. It’s

[1:43:18] spk_2: OK.

[1:43:18] Wayne May: Hold on. Here’s the, here’s the river almost dry, this is the back door. This is the back door. And then here come the, here come the invaders. They’re gonna face these readouts, OK? There’s the back door.

[1:43:34] Michelle: Yes, exactly. Yeah, that’s

[1:43:36] Wayne May: why they had to come this way. The waters were out. It’s all about the water. Otherwise this fort makes no sense. Why would you attack this heavily defended area? You can run around here and come in anywhere you want to come in. Mhm. But the water was there.

[1:43:50] Michelle: You see, that’s the neat

[1:43:52] spk_2: part of it.

[1:43:54] Wayne May: I people here. It’s really awesome. It’s a beautiful spot, beautiful spot. By the way, I don’t do bus tours anymore. OK. I do tours for groups of 14 only. Because then I can go a place like this where a big buses can’t go. OK. And it’s really the only way to tour. We can have so much fun in a small group.

[1:44:13] Michelle: I know. I might have to come and do one of these. This sounds really fun. You invite me out

[1:44:17] Wayne May: walking in. This dirt path was the limestone covered area walking in. You can see the mound to the left, the mound to the right, and you got to go in the spring. here or the fall, otherwise it’s so thick you can’t, you can’t appreciate what you’re looking at.

[1:44:31] Michelle: So that wild, so that limestone path, why is that gone? Was that intentionally removed? How did he know it used to be there? Did it erode away but

[1:44:41] Wayne May: it’s still here. It’s under the dirt. They dug down to see it and then they OK right now, but I’m gonna show you more. Hold on. That’s where it was at. Now, I’m Taking pictures of this is the Pollock Earthworks. I’m gonna, that’s the berms. I’m gonna take Photoshop and I’m gonna stick two towers, one on each side of the doorway, and I’m gonna put the wall in place to help you visualize better, OK? I’m on top. You see how high it is from the bottom. Oh wow, it’s, this is untouched. It hasn’t been screwed up.

[1:45:20] Michelle: OK. All

[1:45:21] Wayne May: right. Now check this out. How’s that?

[1:45:26] Michelle: Oh, cool. So that’s what they were dealing

[1:45:29] Wayne May: with. This is the same photograph. These are the actual trees. It’s the same photograph. See that tree, it’s still here. Trees in the back are still there. I’m just getting rid of this stuff in the front here. And every dirt, everything had, had limestone covering up here so they couldn’t also retard digging down. And here’s your pathway walk in now. I put a door here, we have no idea what this looks like. This is a total gas on the door, total guess. But the towers, that is the size, that is the size of the towers. So that helps you see it now. Here’s another one. This is the south gate. We had a tower on each one of these bumps, and then you had the wall, and it would have been limestone covering all this out here. And there’s, there’s 7 guys buried here underneath the tower, and that archaeology, I can even show you where they are. But here’s here’s that.

[1:46:21] Michelle: Wow, that’s so cool.

[1:46:24] Wayne May: Here they are, they are together.

[1:46:26] Michelle: It’s so intimidating. It’s clearly, if that’s, if it’s anything, if that’s like, even close to accurate, it’s clearly a defensive, um, for,

[1:46:35] Wayne May: yeah. These are not ceremonial sites. And I have to fight this because they have to decide something because John Wesley Powell has told them, nobody here, you know, it’s gotta be somebody else. And this, this I like to, now this is the rest of that fort. What I like about this is that archaeologists came in, Connolly and Essen press, not the Ohio guys, these guys are out of Illinois. And they came in and they took 1234 samples just at random at these wall sections, 31, 55, 58, and 84, and they found wooden post molds on every spot. Yeah, you go here today, the head curator will tell you that these walls were not posted. I mean, it’s just insane. It’s just insane what they do this. And, and here’s the, uh, here’s the dating that they put out. 390 BC all the way to 380 AD. This is total Book of Mormon timeline.

[1:47:29] Michelle: It is OK. OK. Wayne, I have to tell you, I don’t know, um, do you, do you want to stop here and we can come back and do more another time

[1:47:41] Wayne May: or I can’t let me, uh, because I can’t see my next slide, let me see where I’m at here.

[1:47:45] Michelle: OK, yeah, you go right ahead. Yeah, we had to spend some time figuring out we’ll stop.

[1:47:51] Wayne May: This is Carlisle. Uh, this is the way it looks today. Uh, the wall would have been up here on the top. You see that top edge rolling along the trees. OK, that is. There’s a lot of dirt left there, but the stone is gone. There’s 3 communities here around Carlisle, and every community took the stone off this fort to build their pioneer homes, fireplaces, chimneys, foundations, whatever. And, and everybody knows that. That’s where the stone is. So what I’m gonna do here, I put the walls and the towers in. Now, no soldier is gonna allow trees to be this close to the walls. These trees in the front here have to go. Just like you said in the back here. See these trees, the same trees, but they got to go.

[1:48:34] Michelle: Well, they use them to build the forts, the trees.

[1:48:40] Wayne May: There you go. Photoshop, isn’t it

[1:48:41] spk_2: fun? Yes, it

[1:48:42] Michelle: is fun and it’s

[1:48:44] Wayne May: amazing. No, that makes sense.

[1:48:49] Michelle: And you, you kept the um the, the crookedness of the top of that. It could have been smooth. It could have been smooth, just made it.

[1:48:58] Wayne May: Here is a massive, massive help. Scientists Ohio University, looking into caves. They look at not slag tights, but slag mites, the one that stand up from the floor. Now, here, there’s a carbon record built in that slag mite and slag tights. Just like right now, we go up into, well, either Antarctica or North Pole, and you take cos of the ice. They can tell the snowfall, how much carbon was in the air when that snow came down. Right here, they’re telling us. The stalagmite found in West Virginia cave showed a major change in the carbon record at 100 BC. Oh my gosh. So here timeline, what’s going to happen. A new study led by Ohio scientists suggests that early Native Americans left a bigger carbon footprint than previously thought, providing more evidence that humans impact the global climate long before modern times. Now, here’s what’s important. He begins at 72 BC fortifying not just a couple of forts. What does it say in the Book of Mormon? All the cities throughout all the land. I mean, you’re talking a major construction project here. Now, what do you do with all the treetops when you get done, all the junk? Burn them, you burn it, and there’s the record to back it up right there.

[1:50:21] Michelle: OK, I would need to talk to someone to see if that would impact the, um, the climate enough to in a cave affect a stalag stalagmite. That, I mean, that’s a

[1:50:32] Wayne May: dripping down through. Oh, OK, as it drips down through. OK. And these scientists, they, well, that’s their,

[1:50:42] spk_2: their, and that’s right

[1:50:43] Michelle: there in that area. Wow. OK.

[1:50:46] spk_2: Is that awesome? Let’s see

[1:50:46] Wayne May: here. Yeah, OK, this is, I think this might be one of the last ones. I told you about the big forts. You don’t know how big they really are, but this, this I didn’t understand for a very long time because it says now, Neha. Has been lost by the, by the Nephites. The Lamanites now are inside. And in the book, what it tells you they lost a lot of men on that place of entrance. And so now they’re all hanging out of the place because they know the Nephites want to get the fort back. So they’re gonna give it to them like they give it the other day, right? So, it’s nighttime. The Lamites go to sleep. They don’t put any pickets in the rest of the city. No pickets. So in the 1, what does Mron do? He calls his men, they should march forth and to the top of the wall, and they’re let down to the city by means of strong cords and ladders. So in the morning, Lamanites wake up and here the Nephites are, they’re in the same town, and Leites then rush out of the place of entrance to get out of there. That’s what they did. So they got Nephiha back and now I’m thinking to myself, how big is this place with two armies are inside the same fort. It’s they don’t see each other, I mean. Think about that.

[1:51:53] Michelle: That’s terrible. So I, yeah, I’ve never, I love how much value and use you are finding out of the word chapters in ALMA, which you’re right kind of torment us as we’re trying to read it.

[1:52:05] Wayne May: Now, you don’t, you can’t appreciate the size of this.

[1:52:08] Michelle: Wow, OK.

[1:52:09] Wayne May: This is very, very, very big. Well, here we got, we got uh 40 acres here, 207 acres here, uh, 800-foot diameter here, I don’t know how many acres, but, uh, here’s a berm. Here’s one of the berms.

[1:52:23] Michelle: Oh wow.

[1:52:25] Wayne May: OK. Now, some of the worms were 30 ft high. Not just 12. Think about that. So where does the ditch come from on the outside? Well, they took that to make

[1:52:36] Michelle: that’s where the soil comes from,

[1:52:38] Wayne May: OK. Here’s another shot of us at the great circle. You can see it now. This, this here is a sacred site. This one is, I know that that we’ll talk about that later. Now, here is a painting. Of a city at Newark. This thing is walled on the outside. Let’s just go over this right here. This is called the octagon, this is called the great circle. This distance right here is 2 miles as a bird. This is the same town.

[1:53:07] spk_2: It’s huge. OK 2

[1:53:08] Wayne May: miles. I’m trying to show all the way around the circumference is 4 miles all the way around. So, if the lameites were really that sloppy and they all hung out at, let’s say, the great circle, and the Nephites came over into the octagon, yeah, they didn’t see him until morning time and then when they attacked him from the inside. These things are huge. They’re huge. And again, the show they had the math, they could build them the same size in different locations. They never varied. 40, 1027. Never varied. Math, math skills. It is.

[1:53:40] Michelle: They were, they were very advanced engineers and architects. The the

[1:53:44] Wayne May: not a stone age culture. We have been told that these guys are a stone age culture. These guys, Stone Age boys don’t build stuff like this. I’m sorry, they don’t do it. They don’t have the math. They don’t do it. And then here I’m, this here is y real quick here. Great Pyramid fits inside the square. Here’s Stonehenge in that circle. Here’s the Roman Coliseum.

[1:54:08] Michelle: Oh my goodness I

[1:54:09] Wayne May: throw on the Stonehenge, uh, just for kicks. How’s that?

[1:54:12] Michelle: That’s how big they are.

[1:54:14] Wayne May: I’m sorry, Statue of Liberty.

[1:54:15] Michelle: OK, that was last one. These are huge.

[1:54:18] Wayne May: Oh yeah, and they matched that Alma 64. It makes sense because of this. And then this one here. They call this built in a particular manner, and this is the only geometric like this. It’s the only one, and yet, it’s called the Hebrew Hanukkah earthworks, even by academia. This is the Hebrew earthworks. 19, 1900s, uh 5 or 10, I don’t have the exact year, the US Army Corps of Engineers came into Ohio and they leveled this whole thing. Took it out. Not there anymore.

[1:55:01] Michelle: Did they have a they were they going to develop the land? What was the reason for plowing it? I mean, what do you feel like it was a cover up? They were trying to cover up.

[1:55:13] Wayne May: Why would they not all the geometrics? Wow. Somebody was just, no, that’s gotta go, that’s gotta go, you know, whatever. I don’t know, you know. But here, you see the lamp in the top, right? See the lamp? And then we’ve got some special marks.

[1:55:29] Michelle: Oh, OK, OK.

[1:55:32] Wayne May: Yeah, pretty cool, huh?

[1:55:34] Michelle: Very interesting.

[1:55:38] spk_2: Yeah, that’s.

[1:55:39] Wayne May: OK. I got a whole lot more.

[1:55:41] Michelle: OK, so if you wanna

[1:55:43] Wayne May: have me back, I can keep you busy for a long time.

[1:55:46] Michelle: OK. Well, I want to hear it from everybody. I want to know what everybody thinks, cause this, I thought that, I think this is amazing. It’s so fun. It’s, I mean, I do hope that people will do, um, You, you know, I like to bring critical thinking to it, not that you haven’t, just I have to be convinced by looking at what’s being said on both sides or what the arguments are, but I will say that um. Like I’ve, like I said, I’ve just kind of thought, this is really interesting, but I haven’t delved into it. And so this is something that maybe we need to delve into now cause it is fascinating. I wanna ask you, um, Yeah, like, like, are there arguments that say the hope well were civilization, but we know they’re not the Nephites that are based in things other than, come on, angels and golden plates and prophets are not good archaeological evidence. Are there stronger arguments than that? No. So have have you seen anything that’s made you go, oh, how do I explain that, you know, as you’ve been doing this work.

[1:56:45] Wayne May: I tell everybody, give me your best shot.

[1:56:48] Michelle: OK.

[1:56:49] Wayne May: I’ve seen so much in 34 years, girl. I, I don’t even, I told my wife the other night, I said, you know, I don’t think I can write a book. It’s too much.

[1:56:57] Michelle: Yes.

[1:56:58] Wayne May: There is so much stuff. Um, can I tell you just a quick story? Yeah. I know things can be moved with sound. Our military now is experimenting and I don’t know how the biggest object, but they can move objects with sound. Now, a friend of mine, who is Jewish, her name is Anita Meyer, um, And I brought Aina out to one of Rod Meldrum’s programs years ago. And she set up a, a box, and she’s hooked up to it with a microphone. And if she said the alphabet like A, uh, it makes a nice color design, color design, uh B, color design, different of course. And she went and said the Hebrew alphabet, right down the line. And every letter she said. That letter Showed up on the box. It showed up.

[1:57:58] Michelle: So what was the magic that was making that happen?

[1:58:01] spk_2: It’s the

[1:58:02] Wayne May: sound.

[1:58:03] Michelle: OK.

[1:58:04] Wayne May: What the scriptures tell us, by the word of his mouth, all things were created. So, now, years passed by. One of my subscribers, he marries a gal from Alaska, an Inuit lady, native, and, uh, he, he, he was, she’s passed on, he’s in his high 80s. He’s when I got to tell you this before I die because I know you’re gonna love this. He said, I was up there with my father-in-law, my wife’s dad. And talking about the old days when they used to go out in harpoon whales and those 40-foot boats with 10 guys. I said, you, you guys are crazy, you know. And, and they could, they’d roll that big old whale back, you know. I said, how did, even if you brought the whole village on, how did you guys get that several ton whale up onto the shore so you could butcher it? Yeah, ready for this? We sang We sang a song.

[1:58:58] Michelle: Wow. OK.

[1:59:00] spk_2: No.

[1:59:01] Michelle: I’ve heard theories because I, my understanding is we don’t know how they built the um, the Egyptian pyramids. So I’ve heard, and the other earthworks, the, um, Easter Island things. I have heard theories about that they were done by sound. I’ve heard that from other.

[1:59:14] Wayne May: And uh Solomon’s Temple sound as well.

[1:59:17] Michelle: OK. OK, so you think that might go into,

[1:59:21] Wayne May: yes,

[1:59:22] Michelle: it is, it’s, it’s all fascinating. Now, Wayne, I want you to tell us about your conference coming up. Yeah, is that perfect? Yeah, OK.

[1:59:32] Wayne May: Uh, let people know, uh, we will be in Spanish Fork, June 20 and 21 of this year. Uh, this is our fifth conference that we’re, we’ve held there at the Maple Mountain High School, uh, stadium seating, one big screen, air-conditioned, uh, food trucks show up, uh, uh, you know, between the lunchtime. We have a good time. We usually have a turnout between, um, 800 and 1000 people show up. Uh, we’ve only got 1000 seats, so you gotta come early because we had to turn some people away, uh, two conferences ago. I don’t want to do that. So you can get your tickets early. Uh, it’s all on here. You, my, my, my site is LDS archaeology.com and you can sign up there for a ticket or you can call my phone number, uh, which is on here, 715-962-1422 and do it over the phone either way. Um, but these are our speakers, and I gotta tell you, up in the right-hand corner you see Brian Uton. He’s an elder. OK. I’m bringing him out along with the two guys in the bottom, uh, Lon Krieger and uh Tom Elmore. Uh, they’ll come up, they’re archaeologists, I mean, ancient American magazine archaeologists, and tell us what they’ve got, and you’re gonna love it, it’s stuff you’ve never seen before. And then I’m bringing out Anthony George, top middle, Anthony George. You can go and do all this Hopewell stuff, but if you want to focus just on Ohio, He’s the expert for just Ohio, man, he’s got it down path. It’s really good. And he’s never been out here before. So, the good stuff, and all these guys have something to to tell. They’re all great stuff. And my friend, uh, Doctor Price, Kevin Price, he’ll be, uh, showing uh the work that we’ve done at, uh, the temple site in Zarahemla, DC 125 verse 3, the Lord tells Joseph, build me a city across from Navo and call it Zarahemla. We have found The foundation and Doctor Price will show it to you. It’s foundation there. The walls are there. It’s there.

[2:01:25] Michelle: OK, this is amazing. So this conference is focused on the archaeology.

[2:01:29] Wayne May: We talk about archaeology, Book of Mormon history. Uh, and nothing else. No politics, um, well, there’s a lot of things I could mention.

[2:01:38] Michelle: Yeah,

[2:01:39] Wayne May: you’re not a potpourri. We focus on Book of Mormon, period.

[2:01:43] Michelle: Perfect. Perfect. Well, I have to make one comment. I do see one woman, which makes me happy, and I’m hoping that maybe next year I can help you out with that because you need more women on this, on this.

[2:01:55] Wayne May: 2, but she had, she had a conflict and I had to get a person to take her spot. No, we got gals that show up.

[2:02:01] Michelle: That, no, that’s great. I’m, I’m only giving you a rough time because, um,

[2:02:05] Wayne May: by the way, I would invite you to come and have a table. We’d love to have you.

[2:02:09] Michelle: OK. OK. That’s great. Well, I’m excited about this. I do think, I do think this is worth digging into and investigating. I, um, You know, I, I think I, I just think that there is so much for us to learn in, in everything, and I’m actually thrilled with the research you’re doing. I love your excitement about it. I love how broad spectrum you have gone with so many different, um. Avenues of investigation. Like, I know. So just so people know, I don’t even know how many slides were on the slide show that, um, Wayne sent me, but it, I’m guessing it was over 500. I don’t know. And he just took a couple small sections of the extensive research that, that, that you’ve been doing for these 34 years, 35 years.

[2:02:54] Wayne May: When you see the, you see the the presentation on the Judites, it’s, I love doing the radites, it’s so fun. It’s so fun. I love.

[2:03:03] Michelle: OK, well, you know what? I am totally open to having you back. So I want, I want to hear from people

[2:03:07] Wayne May: invite me whenever and I’ll do what I can. I love to

[2:03:10] Michelle: help. Yeah, and this would be great because it, um, if you want to in the comments, you can leave the um the critiques, the criticisms, the hard questions, the things that you want to push back on Wayne about, and then and then and we can ask the hard questions.

[2:03:25] Wayne May: I get the most is.

[2:03:28] Michelle: OK.

[2:03:29] Wayne May: Uh, piece of cake. I blow you out of the water with the

[2:03:32] Michelle: parrots, that was the parakeets was a good one.

[2:03:34] Wayne May: That’s just part of it.

[2:03:35] Michelle: OK,

[2:03:36] Wayne May: yeah,

[2:03:37] Michelle: OK, and I would love to hear more about

[2:03:38] Wayne May: the I think the Vikings, the Vikings gave us the answer.

[2:03:42] Michelle: OK,

[2:03:44] Wayne May: yeah, you gotta, you gotta go broad, man. You just can’t, you can’t. You can’t walk around like this.

[2:03:50] Michelle: Yeah, there’s the cliffhanger for everyone. So Wayne, thank you so much for everything that you have done for bringing this to us. I will be excited about this conference. I think it looks very interesting. I always, I always approach things with an open mind. So this is me,

[2:04:09] Wayne May: people are genuine. Uh, you’ll love Bruce Porter, um, Hawking. I mean, I’m like, I just, they all got something to say, uh. Jeffrey, Jeffrey’s got something new to lay on the members, and I know what it is and it’s it’s awesome.

[2:04:28] Michelle: OK, all right, it’s good. OK, I will plan on it. Thank you so much for coming. Yep, and I’ll look forward to talking to you again. All

[2:04:34] Wayne May: right. Bye-bye.

[2:04:37] Michelle: Another shout out to Wayne. Thank you for coming and sharing a small portion of your research. I will be interested in looking into this more. I do really want to hear people’s objections and questions and what they would like me to ask if we have Wayne on again and let me know what you think about that. Again, thank you so much for sticking along on this journey of trying to discover more and more truth. I really appreciate you and I’ll see you next time.