159 Live Call-in Show #4

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Mormon Stories, #FreeMichelle, Journal of Mormon Polygamy Conference. Lots to talk about!!

Transcript

[00:02] Michelle: Welcome to 132 Problems to our fast Sunday live chat. Um, I am very happy to be here. It has been a long week of being extremely sick. I’m finally Mostly recovered. You can hear my voice is still a little off, and I have spent the week in bed, so I’m still extremely weak. But this has been such a big week that I did not want to, um, not be able to talk about it today. So I’m here anyway. We’re going to do our best for as long as I hold up to Um, talk about this big week and everything that has happened and to take your questions, we are going to follow everybody else’s lead and prioritize super chats. So if you have a question or a comment that you really want to make sure is seen, go ahead and throw us. Super chat that helps support the channel and it also gives us a way to help prioritize um comments and questions but as most of you hopefully know this week I had the big interview on Mormon Stories with John Dehlin and um that was, that was a really big deal so I wanted to come on and talk a little bit about. Um, about that falling into place and some of the things that happened and sort of the process and some of the ups and downs. It was a bit of a roller coaster leading up to it. And then, um, and then I wanted to answer some of the questions that um had been sent to me and some of the Follow up questions from it and then whatever questions people might have in addition. So, um, I guess we’ll just go ahead and get started. Should, should I start just talking about stuff or taking a question? I guess I’m gonna go ahead and actually start by telling you a little bit about the history of, um, of what’s happened and there is so much to share. It’s a really long story and. Some things I am at liberty to share, some things I’m not, I both in my personal life and my own relationship with the church, um, even more than with John. But, as most of you know, um, John talked mentioned on his, um, episode that he did about the changed, um, relief I changed primary manual. He mentioned that we had had a two-hour phone call. And that was actually awesome. So, yes, we did. So, um, John had sent out a survey, and I started to do it and texted him back after, and he ended up texting me and, and, um, one thing led to another, and he asked, um, how interested I would be on coming on Mormon Stories. And I felt like we had had that conversation a couple of times. And so I was like, I’m very willing to engage and, you know, and so he sent me the form to fill out. And as I looked at it, it was kind of the standard, um, a standard form. And I didn’t know exactly how to fill it out since I didn’t know which conversation we were really having. So I asked if he could, um, talk, and we were both, we both happened to be up really early in the morning. So, um, when he called me, it was about 7 o’clock in the morning, and he was awesome. I was able to ask him the questions I had, and he explained to me what he had in mind. And we had a really long conversation. I ended up getting my kids ready for school and dropping them off while um while I was talking to him, it was really good about giving me a minute to take care of the kids and then And I was so impressed with how sincere he was, and, um, genuine and curious and open minded and willing to hear my perspective. I was like, wow. And so he said, Well, I, I should have you on. And I was like, OK, well, let’s go ahead and schedule it. Yes. I thought, um, you, you know what, like, let’s, let’s strike while iron is hot. So that’s, he was willing to schedule it for Tuesday, and I thought that sounded great. And, um, and, and I thought everything was squared away and things started to get, and then, as, um, I guess, I guess that was after. I’m still a little fuzzy brain, so you’ll have to forgive me. He was also extremely gracious when, um, Cheryl and my episode came out. Yeah, I think we, yeah, we did. We scheduled that before Cheryl and my episode came out last week. Responding to his, um, episode on evidence of Joseph having sex with his wife. And so I was, so he had already scheduled that with me and in our phone call, I gave him a heads up that I was a little bit, um, critical of him in some parts, but, um, tried not to be mean or anything. Anyway, so on Sunday when we um when we did our episode, he could again could not have been more gracious. He sent both Cheryl Lemme texts saying. Like, like, just, just fully, um, what, what should I say? Like, fully humble and willing to, um, accept what we had dished out and, and saying that, you know, he recognized and acknowledged everything we said. And it was, it was really, really, um, impressive. And so I thought, OK, this is like shaping up really good. And in the meantime, I have had, um, well, let’s see. Um, I’m try, I’m trying to discern what things I should and shouldn’t talk about. I just, there were other things I needed to work out on my end to make sure that this wouldn’t bring any more heat for, um, for any people, you know, sometimes going on with John Dehlin isn’t what, um, people expect of faithful members of the church to do. Although I think that’s a shame. I really appreciate when Um, when different voices can be heard, and I feel like John tends to be respectful to a wide variety of perspectives. So I felt really optimistic and really good about going on. And so, um, anyway, so that all seemed really good to me and everything looked really good on Monday. So the the interview was scheduled for Tuesday and Monday was my husband’s birthday. Our birthdays are 4 days apart, and um, So I was trying to get, um, everything squared away, make my husband’s birthday dinner, and I started to get sick, um, really sick. And I was like, Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me, God? I’m getting sick now. Well, I’ve still got all of this to do, and I’m supposed to be doing this interview tomorrow. And, um, and I was still trying to like get done what I needed to, so I wasn’t able to immediately go to bed because there were a lot of things that needed to happen. And, um, And then this is where things started to get a little swampous. Um, I, I feel like I’m telling you this story. I hope it’s interesting and that I’m not just all over the place. Uh, one thing I left out that I should have told before about Monday morning. So when John responded to us on Sunday about the episode that we had done, he was really, um, really, um, shall I say penitent? I don’t want to say the wrong word or put words in his mouth, or I don’t want to say anything at all insulting, but he was very much like, I’m so embarrassed, you know. You, and he, and he was just really kind and complimentary. um, and then, and, and then he said he wanted to take the episode down and, and he said he wanted to just to not spread misinformation. And so both um Cheryl and I were like, which whatever you feel the best about, you know. And then on Monday, he started texting and he had a different plan and he wanted to redo the episode. But with somebody else and do a better job. So we wanted to do the same episode where he had all of the best evidence of Joseph Smith having sex with his wives, but he wanted it to be way better without, um, his comments and without other um problematic sources and things. And, and he, he texted both of us and asked Sheryl if she, if she would do that. And she was like, I can’t like it, I can’t. And he was like, Well, oh, well, if you can’t, who can? And, and she was kind of offended and felt like, it’s not that I’m not a good enough historian, it’s that there aren’t good enough sources. Nobody can do a good job of that episode, is what she and I were both trying to explain to him and he was like, I, I hear you. I just really want to redo this episode, so tell me who I should have do it. And And Sheryl at one point was like, go ahead and redo it, and we’ll just do the exact same thing again because it’s, it’s like I tried to explain, it’s not which historian you choose, it’s what sources they have to talk about, and we know what the sources are, and we’re trying to tell you. There are not good sources to be able to do that kind of an argument that kind of an episode. Like I had tried to explain that that’s not even the ground that this argument is being had on because the um the sources for, for Joseph having sex with his wives in that way is so the sourcing is just not good. And so, um, so he was pretty determined that that’s what he was going to do. So we were kind of surprised and not sure. What to think about it. And then I can’t even remember. See, I should have looked all into this. I didn’t know how much I was gonna talk about. But, um, so that kind of got us going, OK, what’s, why, why does he want to do that? That was confusing to us for a little while. Then we kind of figured it out. And then, and then, um, after that, that was happening all morning, and I said, and then, oh, and then he started texting me things like, Michelle, can you summarize for me in a text your view on the expositor, on the Navo expositor? I was like, No, no, I cannot summarize for you. In a text, my, my view on the expositor, like, you know, and that’s where I had said, I’ve done 3 episodes on it so far. I have another episode, at least 1 more to do. I will say I have probably 2 more to do on it. And um, so as I said, you can start with those, but if you have questions I can answer them. But but and then I said, but actually it’s my husband’s birthday day. I’m really busy. I don’t have time to text a lot today anymore. And so And so anyway, so it just started to feel like, oh, how is this gonna go? What’s this gonna be about? Cause when we had talked on the phone and scheduled it, he wanted it to be my Mormon story. He just wanted to have me talk about my story. So I think I have a really interesting story, and he, he thinks that so too. And I also, I didn’t mind starting that way cause I thought it was a little bit less, um, threatening, maybe. No one had to come knowing their stuff in order to talk to me. And I also found value in sort of just, um, Humanizing, um, at least one person in this, from this perspective to their audience, right? I thought making a human connection is a really good first step. And I’m sure some questions will come up and they can at least understand better who I am, instead of just thinking, oh, that crazy person, right? So I was fine with that. So when he started asking me to like summarize the expositor, I, I got a little concerned, like, what, what’s he doing? What, what’s this for? What’s this about? You know? And, um, and so anyway, I just got busy with the day and then I checked my texts again at 6 o’clock in the evening. And, um, just as I had finished making my husband’s dinner, and I felt bad. I was like, honey, there was your birthday dinner. Happy birthday. I have to go to bed because I had gotten really sick by that point. And I checked my texts and saw, um, a file that John had sent me. So I opened it up and it was just like information for tomorrow. And I opened it up and it was a, um, a document, uh, uh, um, what am I trying to say, not a word document, a Google doc that had over, I counted him up at the time, it had over 44 questions that, and he said, these are some of the things I’m gonna ask tomorrow. And it was so it was questions that cause he had posted it on all the different social media and sent me this giant list of questions, but then he also had gotten questions from um different people as well, from different scholars and different um people on his team, and, you know, so it was this he I think he had a list of questions from RFM and some others, and I, I was like, Wait, what? What? And I got really concerned at that point because I, I was already sick. This interview was tomorrow. I thought it was supposed to be my Mormon story. And all of a sudden it was like this inundated at the last minute with all of these questions. And several of them were things that, um, I would have preferred not to even talk about. So, I was, I was really surprised. And I, I was a little spunky. I texted back and I was like, is this a bait and switch? Like, this isn’t my Mormon story. You want to, you know, and he got really concerned when I said that and said, not a bait and switch at all. And so that night, it actually was a little bit, um, tense, like, like he, he, he kept saying, please feel free to call it off. You can call it off at any time. And I didn’t know if he was trying to get me to call it off, and so was doing this, or If, um, or if I should call it off, because if it was going to be, uh, you, you know, it was, it was really confusing to know what to do. I also had kind of been on again, off again with if we’re doing the second part of our response. Today, what I was going to air was the second response video to, um, to the video that he had taken down at the time. But then he ended, oh, I think by that point, Can’t remember if he had ended up putting it back up. I think he had, by the time I got this text, this, this, um, message with all of the questions, he had ended up putting the video back up. And so I was going to have, um, Jeremy and Whitney come on and do the, the second response with me. So we had scheduled it and then canceled it. And then I, I called them both. I was like, I guess we’re back on, and, um, scheduled it again. And I also was really sick and I, and I felt like I thought he was being such a good faith actor, and this really concerned me. And so, but then he texted me several times, making sure I don’t want you to feel like this is a bait and switch at all. I, we, we do our, we get ready at the last minute, and, and these are the questions we had come in. I have to ask you these questions or my audience will butcher me. These are things that people want to know. So he, he really, um, from his, from his stance was acting in good faith. From my stance, it felt really like a gotcha, you know? And so, um, but, but thankfully, I think we both just gave each other the benefit of the doubt and hoped for the best. And, um, and I texted and I was like, OK, I, I will plan on the interview tomorrow. I’m sure it will go great. I went to bed just praying like Lord, please help me feel well, so I could do this because the last thing I wanted to do was cancel, you know, this felt like a really important um interview and And I also, though, didn’t want to go get John sick, and I certainly didn’t want to go and not be able to get my words out or think clearly or, um, you know, come across well, which I think happened to some extent. Like I’ve, I’ve really been thinking of things I wished I had said and things that I would have said differently, and I guess that’s gonna happen after any interview, but I don’t think that being sick necessarily helped a ton. But, um, that night, I ended up Barely sleeping at all. Part of whatever this horrible sickness I’ve had has been insomnia, and I just was not able to sleep. So I think I slept from about 11 to 1:30 and then woke up. And couldn’t get back to sleep for more than about 20 minutes to half an hour at a time through the rest of the night. So that was the state I was in. But I did, um, I will say, my, um, my husband and my son gave me a blessing the morning before and I had been praying that whole night. And by morning, I at least was feeling better. Like I was, I was feeling like, OK, I’m OK. I can do this. I’d also been taking all of the, you know, whatever wy pooh brew is what my husband calls all of the many, many healing things that I have to take. So, um, so I felt like, OK, I think I’m OK. I think I’m OK. I, I’ve gone without sleep before. It doesn’t usually hit me till the next day. So I think I’m OK. So I went ahead and got ready, and by the time I got to the interview, I was feeling pretty good. And so I was like, OK, thank you. And then, um, and then sat down with John, and actually, I thought we had another really delightful exchange. Like I was so glad I had given him the benefit of the doubt. And, um, And had gone and that he had given me the benefit of the doubt. And I had, you know, I had invited me to come. And so I thought that, um, the conversation went really well. And then when he got into some of these questions that he had sent, it, it was so many that I was barely even even able to read through them. Oh, and I should say, the list, he was still, like, he even told me, because I noticed in the morning that the list was different than what he had sent me the night before. I didn’t. found out how many additional questions there were, but there were at least a dozen additional questions. I would have to look to see exactly how many. And many of them were like expanded into separate parts. And it was even more, um, 000, you know, and, um, and so, so he, and he did tell me he had been working on it until 3 o’clock in the morning. And so it was never really even a stable list that I could. That I could look at. But at least it let me, um, I, at least he sent it to me instead of just, um, hitting with me with it at the interview when I had no idea. So I really appreciate that. And I do understand that they prep, you know, the day before for the interview, he was fitting this interview in at the last minute, and they were doing prep for it. And these were, and they put out what questions should I ask? And these were the questions he got. And so, um, so I understand it from his perspective, and I think he also understood it from my perspective. And so, um, I will go ahead and talk about some of these questions and, and, um, discuss a little bit, a little bit of what our thoughts were. I will say John and I have since talked on the phone since this interview and we’ve had, um, some discussion about some of these things. And we, we may just get lucky, um, and have a surprise caller today if um, if John has time tonight, he, he will call and and we could talk about a little bit of this. But I guess before I go on further with this story, someone, you’ll have to remind me where I am in the story because it looks like we have, um, a caller, we have liberty on the lines we’re gonna let Liberty come on before I finish the story. Liberty, are you there?

[18:01] Caller: Yeah. Hi. Hi.

[18:07] Michelle: Thanks for calling in. Can you, oh, can you turn down the computer cause we’re on a little bit of a delay, so I think that you’re hearing the um the show instead of hearing me live.

[18:20] Caller: OK.

[18:23] Michelle: Yeah, what can I do for you?

[18:27] Caller: Um, my name is Liberty, and I’m 12 years old. I just wanted to say. Um, I’ve learned a lot from your videos, and I wanted to thank you.

[18:39] Michelle: Oh my gosh,

[18:41] Caller: that is,

[18:42] Michelle: you are an a 12 year old to be listening to these long videos at 12 years old. That is something else. Thank you so much for letting me know, and thank you for caring about these topics.

[18:57] Caller: Yeah, um, go ahead. I, I think that all these stuff is really interesting and Good, it’s really entertaining.

[19:13] Michelle: I’m so glad. I’m so glad to hear that. So I really appreciate it and I, I appreciate you taking the time to call as well. And my gosh, everyone doesn’t this give us hope that there are like kids growing up already caring about these things as they are developing their testimonies? So liberty, do you like the Book of Mormon? Is that something that you find value in?

[19:36] Caller: Yeah, I, yeah, I, um. We try to read. Not only the Book of Mormon, but Um, All the scriptures. Yeah,

[19:51] Michelle: definitely. That’s great. Well, I really appreciate you calling and telling your mom and dad hi and thanks for raising such a great kid, and thank you for being such a great kid. I’m really proud of you.

[20:05] Caller: Thank you.

[20:06] Michelle: Thanks a lot. That, oh, how cute was that? Way to go, liberty. So, um, I love your name by the way. Um, so anyway, back to this list of questions. So, um, where, 00, so yes, so I talked to John after we kind of batted it back and forth and debated a little bit, um. You know, the value and relevance of some of these questions that could feel like sort of, um, gotcha questions or purity test type questions, maybe that, um, that we talked about. And so I did while I was, um, unable to sleep on, um, on Monday night before the interview. I did go ahead and write out answers for quite a few of them. And so maybe I’ll go ahead and and share some of these answers in the meantime, unless, unless there are some questions. Oh, first, we have Jeff Jeffrey Max, thank you for the super chat. I really appreciate it, Jeffrey, and it says the 1835, 1844 doctrine covenant’s called polygamy a crime. So is there any evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Joseph is guilty of the crime of polygamy? I don’t think there is any evidence that proves it. I think that is a great question, and I strongly agree with you. In fact, when he was tried in a court on any of these issues, he was never found guilty. I am. That that I can think of, and he did try to sue sue those who were making the allegations against him. I know that in the expositor Law and the Fosters and Higbes tried to sue, tried to bring charges against Joseph Smith for adultery. I believe it was with Was it with, um, see this is where my fuzzy brain, the two sisters, Sarah and Maria, Maria, um, Lawrence, and I, I hope I’m getting, I think it was Maria Lawrence, if I’m remembering correctly, this is my very tired brain, so please forgive me if I get any of the details wrong. But there’s no evidence for it, and the laws didn’t have like, like, um, that was the only name they could even come up with. So to claim that the laws were somehow in that any of them were insiders that had information about Joseph’s polygamy. Um, is ridiculous. They could have said, Here’s the list of his wives, if they were insiders of any sort, right? And so, um, so I strongly agree with you. It was a crime, yes. And Joseph often, well, I won’t, I won’t go there. It was a crime, and no, there is no evidence that he was guilty of that crime, that he was even ever. Um, anyway, I, I would, I would answer that question more articulately if I were feeling better, but I think that is a great observation and when we should probably talk more about. So, um, let’s see, were there any? Oh, OK. So I will answer this really quickly, then I’ll go back. So Jack Box answered, I mean, asked what happened to the video I took down. So, um, I’m just trying to wonder what I should say that will be, um, That would be the best. I, um, I guess I will just say that my, um, local leaders, um, are doing the very best job they can to, um, to do the what they feel good about in their stewardship, and, um, they feel very good about me continuing in full activity in the church, and they um are being very prayerful and taking it very seriously. And maybe, um, possibly coming under increased scrutiny and pressure. I, I, um, and so, um, so I have tried to do what I can to help them to, um, to take the pressure off of them, if possible. And, and, and I’m also just following the Lord, and I felt inspiration that that video had served its purpose, that it had done what it was supposed to do, and that And that if, um, I took it down, I, I didn’t, I don’t ever want to set myself up to appear to anybody in the church to be their enemy. And, um, if taking the video down would help people, um, have more peace about the fact that I’m not an enemy of the church in any way, then I was happy, happy to do that. I, um, I called. Um, Helena and Manon, the two wonderful women in the church. I, I didn’t call Erin. I talked to Manon and hoped that, um, she would pass it on. I explained the situation. There’s more behind the scenes, um, just the, the, um, I really do just try to follow what I feel impressed, um, what, what I feel like the Lord is trying to help me understand. And that Sunday was a very difficult evening with some different impressions I was having, and, um, Different things I was trying to sort through. And the first piece I had is when I had, when I just finally felt like I should take the video down, and I felt a piece, uh, not complete piece because there were a lot of other things going on as well. But yes, um, so I have, I have taken some videos down. I know that they are still, um, uh, um, available through links. And so if people really want those, I believe that, um, if they email to 132problems.org, that, um, that Um, they, they might be able to get some of those links from people other than myself. But, um, anyway, that’s, that’s some, some of the background there. I just know that, um, I’m trying to do what is in the best interest of this movement as a whole. And, and in fact, I felt this will sound funny to some people, but, um, when I got off the phone with John Dehlin that morning, with, uh, I will say that, that, that episode that I took down was, was on par to be one of the highest viewed episodes of my channel. It was actually going to be the highest viewed episode on the channel. It was doing really well in part because it was bringing in some of the Mormon stories audience since John Dylan had, um, talked about me that day. And I, and I had actually been, uh, I’m, I’m sharing a lot. I hope that this is OK. I hope. I hope I’m not, I don’t know. It’s hard to always know what to share, and I haven’t thought about this much in advance, because I’ve been too sick. But, um, but when I, I, I aired the Keith Erickson video, and then, um, John Dehlin Mormon Stories ended up doing an episode based on the Keith Erickson episode, right? And so on the one hand, I felt like, oh, OK, this will help the church know more that this isn’t a good way to engage with these questions, hopefully. But on the other hand, I was like, Oh no, um, I provided good content that is, uh, being used this way. Oh no, you know, I, I have very mixed feelings about it. But as I listened to that episode and listened to, um, the perspective that, um, the, the Mormon Stor perspective on the Keith Erickson video, there were a couple of different times that I just. I, I really did. I just fell to my knees and pled with the Lord like, Lord, please, let, let there be a way to help these people at least hear a different perspective. You know, I just view these things so differently and it’s painful to have them be so certain of things that I don’t think are as certain as they think they are, and that I think need to be re-adjudicated and And I really did just pray like, please, if there’s any way that they can at least hear a different story, a different version, please open that way. And, and so I, on Sunday when that video was doing really well, I was hopeful that that was actually the part, that part of the answer to that prayer was like, oh, they’re hearing a different, a different version to some extent, you know. And then, and then I took it down, and that was hard. But, um, but I also, it was also a good test for me to check in. I know we have more super chats, we will get, get to them. So thank you for being patient and finish this story. It was a good chance for me to check in because I’m always wanting to make sure that this is, that I’m not making this about me, me growing my channel. Me, me getting a big name, but that I’m trying to do what I feel like the Lord wants me to do. And so being given the opportunity to take down a very high performing video was a good opportunity for me to check in and go, OK, good, it’s not about me. I just want to do what God wants me to do. And then when, um, I hung up the phone with John and we had scheduled the episode, and it occurred to me, oh, I’m supposed to be careful, my, um, Like, my, um, you know, I’m, I’m having conversations with my bishop. Is this a good idea? And I knelt down and prayed about it and was like, Lord, is this a good thing for me to do? And what I felt, I had the answer that I just felt like the Lord said, You were willing to take down that video, and now I’m compensating with this to, to answer the prayer, to let, let people in the Mormon Stor’s audience hear a different perspective. And I don’t want to be arrogant or prideful, and, you know, but, but it just was nice for me to be able to share a different perspective. So, um, so that was part of that story. And I’ve lost part of the train of thought, but let’s go. To some of the super chats. I see we have one. Thank you, Coach. You are awesome. Coach says, Michelle, I thought you did great on women’s stories. You held your own despite feeling under the weather. Thanks again for the discussion you had with me on my show. I’ve enjoyed getting to know you, wishing you all the best. You guys, I do have to say Coach is such a great guy. He and, um, on his channel did an aftershow. Um, of the interview with John, but I didn’t, wasn’t able to watch until a couple of days later, but I thought it was great. I thoroughly enjoyed most of it. There was one person that I am not a big fan of that was on that show, but everyone else I thought was awesome. And so I highly recommend watching that if you wanted any more like sort of postgame um show about this. And one thing I want to say is after dealing with both Colch and John Dehlin. It, I, I’m not the only one that has noticed this. People have pointed it out, but my gosh, the Exos have been so respectful and stand up. They’ve just been great guys who have engaged with, like, like sincerity and integrity and forthrightness as opposed to some of the people on my own team in the LDS Church who have engaged in such atrocious ways. And so, I really have to say, like, like that is shocking, should be shocking to everyone. And I hope, I know that the personalities we get in some of these, some of the worst of these channels are not the personalities of, of the good men in our church, right? For, for the most part, I hope. But that is one thing I have noticed that has been really interesting to me. So, um, anyway, did I leave anyone hanging with the story? Was there somewhere I was gonna go with it? So, um, so anyway, that was the story about taking the episode down, and then I felt like, um, the John Dilan episode was part of that story and was an amazing opportunity that, that I feel, I feel that the Lord helped to work out. John may take issue with that, but, um, but that was my experience. Do we, did we have another call or? OK. Um, oh, so I guess, OK, so yeah, I was gonna get to answering some of these questions. And then, um, let’s see. OK, so yeah, these are two of the, two of the questions that a bunch of the calls have been coming in with, and so I’ll just answer them all as a whole. So this is a Question, I feel like I have answered so many times and I’m sure I will continue to answer and it’s why do you stay in the church? And this is um a multifaceted answer that I could answer in many ways, but since so many people are asking, I will go ahead and answer and say. The number one reason I stay in the church is because I feel like the Lord has repeatedly told me to stay in the church. And I know people take issue with, um, with people who believe, like believe that they have connection to God and the ability to receive inspiration from the divine, and they think it’s just my own mind. I’ve had I’ve had conversations with my twins who have left the church, and For me, if it is just my own mind, then my own mind is God, because it’s way smarter than I am, and it has, it doesn’t lead me astray. I am very willing to um adjust answers. I, I hope my answers. With humility and lightly, like, one of the things I say is, the best I can say is that for now, God wants me to believe this, or God wants me to do this, and that can change at any time. But that’s just how I operate. And, um, and it, it, it has made my life wonderful and it’s given me wisdom way beyond my own. And so sorry, I have to cough for a sec. So that is my number one go to is I follow God. And, and I feel like God has repeatedly told me to stay in the church. And then I will add on to that, that while I’ve received those answers, um, and for their own sake, like that is why I say I have come to see. To be increasingly thankful for that. And so I do genuinely believe there is far that the good in the church far outweighs the bad. I know that’s not the case for everybody and I’m I’m sorry for that, and I’m sad for that. Um, for me and for my family, that is the case, and I have to do what is the right thing for us, but I feel like God is telling us to do. Yes, it can be a challenge. Yes, there are a lot of things that I hear that I struggle with, and, but at the same time, the practice of attending church every week of Of going and gathering with a community is really important and has become increasingly important to me. Developing those ties and those that community, that opportunity to serve and to be served by others, the opportunity to learn and grow from the good examples and try to become more like them and to Learn charity and, um, forgiveness and long suffering with the people that are hard there has become more important to me, both sides of that. Learning to work through the challenges of, I’ve definitely had the times of feeling like everybody is judging me, everybody hates me, you know, like when you have someone turn you into the bishop for whatever reason, I’ve had more than my fair share of those kinds of run-ins and then When I’ve had a difference of opinion, you know, I do this quite publicly and some people strongly disapprove. But, but coming to the point of just realizing, oh, I can just decide that everybody loves me, and I can just go into the church believing everybody loves me, and that frees me up to just love everybody. And right, being able to go with that attitude, what it, what it does for me, sitting in um the lessons and having the inspiration of a comment that I can make is for me a I, I just, I relish that, that’s a delicious experience for me. And being challenged when I hear things that rub me the wrong way, than going to the scriptures and figuring out what I think on something or why it rubs me the wrong way, or having a scripture that I can feel inspired to share that I can that I can bring in a different perspective that I think is important. And, um, And then even just the practice of having my children who in the screen saturated world with where we have no attention spans, having my little guys be bored to tears through sacrament meeting, just like I was bored to tears through sacrament meeting when I was 7, right? Like, It’s not a bad thing, and then every once in a while something something hits, right? Something lands that lasts and I just talked to my kids today. Um, I, I wasn’t able to go to church because I’m still recovering and my husband’s actually sick as well. So we had my, um, cute 16 year old. Um, he went to bless the sacrament, and so he took his siblings, which was awesome. And, and, you know, I had a conversation with him about why we go and why we partake of the sacrament. And we, I talked about the, um, Jesus’ last evening on earth and gathering the apostles together. And And what he knew was facing him the last day, and we talked about the the importance of thinking, the spending time meditating and pondering on trying to recognize. What the example that Jesus gives us and the life that he lived and the and his teachings and what he was willing to sacrifice for what he believed and for our sake, right? And talking to them, and I’m butchering it now, but we had a beautiful conversation. On the importance and the purpose of the sacrament. And so all of those things, being part of a community where we each take turns giving talks and hearing from one another. And where so much incredible service is done, I am in awe of the amount of service that the people in the church do. And I, I do want people to do it because they feel like they should not because they feel like they have to. I don’t ever want people to be depleted. By um over serving in the church. But, but so much genuine happy, willing service that, um, from the bishop to every other calling, the, the bishop, especially the amount of service that is done and the relief Society president. And then all of the people that serve my children, teaching the different classes and putting together different activities and all of those things. There’s just, uh, I’m, I’m not even touch scratching the surface, but That, and then, and my, my missionary coming home and seeing what is available for the young single adults now, the activities and the lessons and classes and the things that they have put together to participate in. I just feel like, why wouldn’t I want to participate in that and partake of it. And, and if I can come to the point of, I guess you can call it radical acceptance where You know, I know that there are gonna be things said that I’m not gonna agree with and that there are gonna be attitudes there that I don’t agree with. But guess what? Sometimes people don’t agree with my attitude, right? And can we learn to accept one another? I like, sometimes in this nation, I feel like we’re gonna break apart because we can’t abide people feeling differently than us on these topics. And I don’t want to be like that, so I want to be in the church. And if, if the cost, the price of admission is just learning to love people who are different than me, OK, sign me up. What’s not to love is, is my view on it. It Makes me a better person. It helps my family be a stronger family, gives us the opportunities to serve and the people to serve us. I don’t know if I’ve answered that thoroughly enough, but, um, I love the things, the majority of the things that myself and my family are taught and experienced. Church. So if I’ve left anything out, go ahead and ask, ask specifics. But hopefully, I have adequately answered that question. And then, oh, and then, OK, we have a super, another super chat. Thank you, Cynthia. Um, I appreciate all your hard work. I think you did, I did super on Mormon stories with John De Lin. You’ve helped me realize that polygamy is not of God. Thank you so much for that message. I really appreciate it. I also want to share, um, a message that I just got, I think. Just today, yes, it was just this morning from an old friend that I haven’t seen in several years. We were, we’re friends in our education, you know, we, we ran in, um, we had our kids signed up in the same, um, home school for quite a while. And, um, and we used to sit together at times and talk, and she sent me a message that she had watched John Dehlin and, um, that she was getting her family ready for church for the first time in several years because You know, she thought of some things that she hadn’t thought about. It was gonna give it a try again, and I don’t know if it’ll work out for her or not. I know it can be a challenge, but um she is a woman of color who I have immense respect for, and I know that that sometimes can make things an additional challenge in the church when we are so Caucasian and Utah and she’s had to endorse some things. And, um, anyway, it made me really happy to hear from her and to hear that she was seeing that maybe there was value again because she was missing it. And so, um, so I appreciate that. I think that the I think it’s easy to focus on the negative. And I’ve been thankful to come to a point to be able to focus on the positive. I’m not gaslighting anybody, including myself. I am thoroughly aware of the negative, but the negative doesn’t erase the positive, and, and I want the positive. And so, OK, here’s another question that’s been coming in a lot. It’s, wouldn’t it be in the church’s best interest to say Joseph was a monogamist if he really was? Why would they object? OK. This is an important question, and I’m glad, I’m glad that it is coming in. So this is something I tried to clarify on, um, Mormon stories as well, and I’ll clarify it again for anybody listening. The church throughout its early, well forever needed Joseph Smith to be a polygamist. I, they, I, the, the only reason I’m not continuing that till till now, I think that many in the church think they still need to do this, but I disagree. So I’m going to clarify. But from the church’s perspective, under Brigham Young, Brigham Young actually didn’t have the clout. To pass something off like polygamy on his own say so. He couldn’t, he couldn’t on his own say this is what God says. I know Joseph Smith said completely the honest of the opposite, but I’m telling you this. Remember, in the early days of the church, whenever they spoke about the prophet, they were talking about Joseph Smith. Brigham Young wasn’t even recognized as the president for several years, and even then he was kind of the um The, what is the word I’m looking for, the steward. Like, he was keeping it until, you know, we have speeches of him in 1866 and another time saying that until one of Joseph’s sons grew up and was righteous enough that he was, he was keeping the church safe and doing, doing well with it. And so he did not have the clout to put forward. A doctrine in opposition to Joseph Smith, and so many of the people knew what Joseph Smith had repeatedly said about polygamy. So they needed to have Brigham Young needed to have Joseph Smith be a polygamist in order to validate the doctrine and justify the doctrine. He didn’t have the clout to pull it, pull it off on his own. And that continued all the way up until the Temple Lot case when what the LDS Church’s reason for entering the Temple Lot case was to prove that the RLDS Church was not a legitimate successor of Joseph Smith, that they were, and that became the central question. There were other questions as well, but the central one became polygamy. If Joseph Smith was a polygamist, then The LDS Church was the rightful successor. If Joseph Smith wasn’t a polygamist, then the RLDS Church was the rightful successor. It’s kind of a good shorthand for what they, what was being argued there. And remember, the judge found in favor of the RLDS Church. That was later overturned. Well, it was overturned on appeal, but it was on something called latches, which is It, it’s basically, it’s similar to squatters’ rights. It’s kind of saying, if someone is on your property, then you have a reasonable amount of time to bring your claim to get them off. Otherwise, they get to stay. And it was called laches. It’s L A C H E S. You can look that up. And so, um, of course, Joseph Smith III was 11 years. old when his father was killed. He was far younger than that when they were chased out of Missouri, right? So it’s not necessarily reasonable that he could have brought the case earlier, but that’s what it was overturned on. And the fact that they needed squatters’ rights to give them the right to to keep the property even shows that’s a That that shows that the fact that they were considered squatters, not the rightful successors, right? And that, and that the um even on appeal, it was said, yes, you do have the rightful claim, but you needed to bring it earlier. And so it even is a, even on appeal. When they lost because of latches, it shows that the decision stood that they were in fact the rightful successor of Joseph Smith. So that is why the church has needed to argue that Joseph was a polygamist. And I think unfortunately, we are now at a time where I, I think that many, um, still think this is the same problem. I, I sometimes say it feels like we are throwing Joseph Smith under the bus in order to save Brigham Young. And, and that’s a challenge because, you know, Brigham Young. He, he said the things he said, he did the things he did. We can’t keep hiding that, right? And so we, so the church in a way feels like it’s come, become, um, become honest about Joseph Smith from some people’s perspective. I think it’s a big mistake because I think that they’re making a lot of mistakes about Joseph Smith. I would rather see us become honest about Brigham Young and Um, and I would rather see there be more focus on Brigham Young because that’s all that verified. Like, I, I, I, I’m not able to do this episode right now, but I was going to do an episode on the Journal of Discourses showing how it was always talked about by the prophet series and Revelators, but the, the presidents of the church when it was published and um versus how it’s talked about now. But we have so many things in the complete discourses of Brigham Young and in the Journal of Discourses that Brigham Young said, we have so many actions that we know that he took. We know that he built the Gardo house. We know his involvement in many of these things. And so, so we can’t really, um, I, I just think it’s a mistake to throw Joseph Smith under the bus in order to save Brigham Young, but I think that’s the kind of the situation we’re still in is that. The church worries, uh, I, I don’t want to speak on behalf of the church. I know that there are people that argue with me that worry that the church loses legitimacy if Brigham Young did these things. And I guess to me, as I always have said, I, I think that’s a mistake. We already have a huge pile of false doctrines of Brigham Young that we have rejected, right? We have the big pile of Brigham Young doctrines that the church has disavowed and condemned and that we no longer continue. And none of those broke the church, right? It didn’t destroy the church to reject the rest of Brigham Young’s doctrines. This is just one more. And in fact, every time we have had a leader who has had What I consider to be the humility and faith and courage to make a huge change away from Brigham Young’s doctrines. The first one, Wilfred Woodruff, who, who at least officially ended polygamy and tore down the endowment house. That was, that took immense, um, humility and courage and faith. John Taylor would have let the church be destroyed for the sake of, um, polygamy. That’s what he believed. But Wilfred Woodruff was willing. Make that change, and the church went on to thrive. It was on the verge of being destroyed because the Book of Mormon warns that we will be cursed and destroyed if we continue with this abomination, right? And Wilfred Woodruff was willing to make that change, and the church thrived afterwards. And then again, of course, with President Kimball being willing to make that change, and it didn’t destroy the church. The church went on to thrive. I don’t know how we think it benefits the church to keep dragging around. Polygamy, that like rotting stinky corpse behind us. But somehow, some people think that that’s necessary in order to validate, um, Brigham Young. It causes a new problem for the church, yes. Um, if we are open, if we open up about the history, but I would need people to understand that the church has always needed, well, I guess in the 20th century, the early, the mid 20th century when we just ignored it and the argument wasn’t happening anymore. It wasn’t as much. An issue, but, but when the question comes up about was Joseph Smith a polygamist in this way, it becomes a problem for the LDS Church in in terms of their validity because of what Brigham Young did. So I understand the challenge. I just think, you know what, Brigham Young had the common consent of the people who followed him. We just need to ask, is the spirit of the Lord in this church? And, and get on with it, right? Let’s, let’s let it go. There’s, you don’t need, um, I mean, any reason is a good reason to do the right thing and tell the truth, but I will say to people that it for this point, at this point, it is hard to help the to help. Um, some people in the church understand why saying that Joseph Smith did not originate polygamy is not threatening to the church. All you need to do is look at people like Jacob Hanson and Greg Madsen and others and see how they’ve engaged with me to understand why they view it this way. And Brian Hailes, especially, as I said, the Exmos are much more open to this perspective and much more respectful to me than the really defensive members of the church who feel threatened by what I’m saying. So that hopefully is a good way to tell you what you need to know about that question. I hope I’ve answered it. So, OK, I guess we have Mason Webb calling. Mason, are you there?

[49:27] Caller: Yes, Michelle, how are you doing?

[49:28] Michelle: I’m good. How are you?

[49:31] Caller: Doing good. You sound like you’re feeling better.

[49:33] Michelle: I am feeling a lot better, thank you.

[49:38] Caller: Oh good. I’ve got 3 words for your interview with John Dehlin that describe you inspired, brilliant, elegant. Absolutely, I enjoyed that interview so much and I especially took um. Probably shouldn’t, but I took a little pleasure in seeing John Glenn get tongue-tied when you, uh, handled some of his questions. That was quite, uh, quite a delight for me. So,

[50:08] Caller: anyway. That’s awesome. Well,

[50:11] Michelle: I remember him getting tongue tied, but I thought he was really um respectful and great, so I appreciated him, but yeah.

[50:20] Caller: He was, but there was a couple of minutes where he’s trying to think of what he needed to say next, um, with the way you handled some of his. Cause I’ve seen some of those other interviews where she does with all these people um about. I don’t like those gotcha questions and you were brilliant. You handle those perfectly. And it’s almost like he had to take a step back going, oh, what do I say now? She just handled that question. So you did absolutely brilliant. Um, by the way, I, I do want to, um, comment on why I personally choose to stay in the church as well.

[50:58] Michelle: I would love to hear that.

[50:59] Caller: Thank you. OK, and this deals with more of a scriptural side of things, OK, OK, but in in DNC 101. There is a parable of the vineyard. Yes. And it talks about the Lord in his vineyard and how his vineyard was taken over by the enemy. Yes. Well, and they didn’t build a tower. What is the tower’s teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? The enemy took over. And changed it from that is how you receive exaltation. That’s how you become more like our Savior Jesus Christ to polygamy being the new method. To get there, that is a false tower of the enemy. Well, in DNC 101, it doesn’t say leave the vineyard. The vineyards the church. It’s a place, it’s like a, like a vineyard is a place where you can grow fruit, righteous fruit unto the Lord. Well, the vineyard was taken over, and heaven Father, the Lord of the vineyard didn’t say, leave the vineyard. No, he said redeem. My vineyard. OK. Redeem my vineyard. And Michelle, I believe you are a huge part of that and many others that are also taking part in tearing down the false tower that you have to have multiple wives to receive the highest level of kingdom, which is what Brigham Brigham Young taught, right? To the actual true teachings of a broken heart, a contrite spirit, baptism fire, what the savior actually taught. Which is the new covenant, which is actually contained in the Book of Mormon, which we’re under condemnation for not following which it talks about in DNC

[52:40] Michelle: and now

[52:40] Caller: also the

[52:41] Michelle: other it tells

[52:42] Caller: us that exactly

[52:43] Michelle: and the DNC, you’re correct, yes.

[52:47] Caller: Exactly. And then the other thing is too, Revelation said the church in the last days will be called what? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Now, obviously some people can argue that it’s corporation. I get all that, but what church is actually bringing the Book of Mormons throughout the entire world? Yes. And that is spreading the true teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But the other thing is, I see the Lord’s hand in correcting the church over time. the, the polygamy didn’t come to an end in in living practice of polygamy anyway. Under peaceful means. In Jacob chapter 2, it says what would happen if we’re practicing polygamy. And heavenly Father brought the whole nation to bear, to where all the leaders of the church would have been imprisoned, all the assets seed, the church would have been utterly destroyed. But what did they have to do? They had to reject polygamy. And who do you think brought the whole nation to bear against the church to put an end to the living practice of polygamy? That was God our father. His aunt, his aunt was in that. And so I see him. I see. His hand is in correcting the church, and what’s going on nowadays is he’s waking people up to the truth. So what are we doing? We’re redeeming the Lord’s vineyard. Now, it may take a lot of effort, a lot of time, and there are a lot of correction, but it also talks about an ether. That we won’t receive the sealed portion of plates until we repent of our iniquity. Well, that implies we’re going to, there’s a repentance that’s going to be involved there at some point in time, and I’m hoping that we all repent against the blasphemy that we committed against God our Father. Right? Even the temple ordinances, if you are familiar, and many people may be or may not be. With what the endowment used to be, it was a corrupt version of the endowment. In Brigham Young’s time, and I love what it’s changed into. To centered on Christ. The only thing I would change is that building up the kingdom of God is building up the kingdom of God because we know the kingdom of God is within us. It’s not an organization. We are the kingdom of God. It’s a state of being. Ah. Um. But that that’s, that’s all happening. It’s coming to pass, and the, the vital work is taking place. is we’re basically redeeming a vineyard a location that can raise people righteously to good fruit on the Lord. And yeah, it’s taking time, it’s taking a battle. It’s not something easy. But the Lord of the of the vineyard has called his servants, all of us. To go out there and teach a true doctrine and to tear down the false towers of the enemy.

[55:47] Michelle: I love it. OK, that is amazing. I love your scriptural insights always. And I know, I know you’ve done a lot of work on this. I so appreciate you sharing that. I hope that will be meaningful to people to, um, to hear what Mason just shared with us. That is really deep and really profound, and I think it’s awesome.

[56:10] Caller: And just on a side note, by the way. Yes. You too, just side, I normally always post your videos on uh Facebook page, the broken heart contra spirit, but late one night I accidentally removed myself as the admin. I was click, I clicked the wrong thing, so I’ll see if Facebook lets me back on as the admin, but, um, but so make sure you always have the backup admin. So maybe just, maybe just telling father’s way and saying, hey, you need to focus on preventing yourself and getting the baptism fire because I haven’t quite received that yet. But um, anyway, you’re amazing. I absolutely adore you. I’m trying not to lie toize you like I said before. Keep it up. You really are redeeming the Lord’s vineyard, and you’re amazing. That’s all I got to say.

[56:58] Michelle: Thank you so much, Mason. I really appreciate it. Thank you for the call and thank you for sharing those profound insights, very meaningful. No worries. It looks like we have another super chat. Did we get that one from Defy the rid? And that’s, um, do you believe, thank you first of all, thank you to fight the grid for the super chat. Do you believe that the truth about polygamy is the doorway to unveiling other truths about God that have been mis misunderstood? And if so, what other things have you learned? Oh, OK, and I guess we have a call, a a phone call with a similar question. Should we take the call? Should we just answer the question? So, OK, so, um, I guess defy the grid will answer your call along with this phone call, your question along with this phone call. So I guess we have Dakota. Hello, Dakota, are you there? Yes, I am. Hi, what can I do for you?

[57:51] Caller: Oh, hi there. Is this Michelle? It

[57:53] Michelle: is, yeah.

[57:55] Caller: All right, perfect. I had a quick question for you. Um, so after, you know, researching into polygamy and kind of following

[58:02] Caller: along with, um, you know, you learning about it

[58:05] Caller: and then finding out Joseph Smith didn’t actually do it,

[58:08] Caller: are there any other topics that you’ve, you’re, you’ve,

[58:12] Caller: uh,

[58:14] Caller: your mind has been opened up to that we

[58:16] Caller: don’t necessarily have right as is, but that, that, that, that you know now that enlighten me on that.

[58:25] Michelle: Um, yeah, well, thank you for the phone call. I’ll, I’ll, um, I’ll let you hang up and I’ll answer both questions at the same time if that’s all right. But, um, yeah, I, uh, so I will do my best. So I do believe, um, well, let’s see, what, what are some of the different scriptures that talk to us about how we can know all the mysteries of God, right, as we, uh, if we, um, repent, I guess we were talking about, um, Alma 26, and I can’t remember exactly which verse it is, but yes, those who repent. Can can begin to know all the mysteries of God. And I do think, I think this is a great question from both of you, Dakota, and Defy the grid about this being a doorway to unveiling other truths. I think that maybe every truth does that, right? Every, every truth we gain opens the door to more truths. So I don’t know that this necessarily needs to be the first one, but I think it’s a very good one. And I will say that, um, oh gosh, there are so many things that, um, That I think my mind has become open to different interpretations of the scriptures, um, deeper meanings into the parables and the teachings of the of um the savior. And one thing I think of, um, that’s kind of something I’ve talked about before is sort of our attitude toward grace versus works like our church gets accused of accused of being a work-based church. And I think that in, in some ways we are maybe a little bit unfortunately guilty of that, which is part of why there tends to be exhaustion in the church, right? Feeling like we have to do all of the things and be good enough and earn our, um, earn the atonement, earn our exaltation. And that’s, that’s one example that of something that I view very differently. We have a couple of scriptures in the Book of Mormon. That lend themselves to being interpreted that way if that’s the lens we’re viewing it through, um, we in, in, as it in Secon Nephi, gosh, I used to have these scriptures all memorized, but now I have too many historical sources that have pushed them out, but what it says we talk. Christ, we rejoice of Christ. Christ, we preach of Christ. We write according to our prophecy that our children may know to what source they they must look for a remission of their sins, for we know that it is by Christ we are saved after um after all we can do, and that’s easy to interpret to mean. If I do all I can do, then Jesus can step in, right? And I have completely, I’ve learned that we’ve completely misinterpreted that, or I had misinterpreted that. If I had viewed it that way at all. It’s that we know that the reason the whole focus on that, of that scripture is on Christ is because it’s saying. After all we can do, do all that you can. Do your very best. You are saved by grace. You are still saved by grace, right? And, and that is one thing that I have definitely learned. And then, yes, there are other teachings in our, um, church, and I wish I weren’t drawing such a blank right now. Maybe it’s because I’m, um, getting myself in enough, um, enough. Hot water just talking about polygamy and I had the answer from the Lord that to, uh, to not talk about anything other than polygamy. And so, um, maybe that’s why I’m just drawing a blank right now, and I feel bad. Dakota, thank you for calling in. I feel bad and, um, and I hope that I’m, I’m not, not, I, I know afterward I might think of something and go, oh duh, but right now I am drawing a complete blank. So this is my invitation. Is to people to go ahead and have that repentance process about polygamy. I’m sure that there are many listeners who have. And for anybody else, go ahead and have it and then see what the Lord starts teaching you. This is a question that each of us could answer to see what truths follow on the heels of that central truth that I’m focused on, right? But I do think that understanding better the nature of God is absolutely essential for each of us, and that does absolutely open up the windows of heaven and the doors of revelation and gives us new insights and, and new direction in life. So I think it’s extremely profound. And I do think, I also think it’s a really important step toward having our connection be to God rather than Mediated through um an organization, right? I, I think the church is absolutely important, but I really hope that our relationship and our connection to God is not mediated through the church. I hope that our instead just like I’ve said before about the temple, I hope that our relationship to the church is mediated through our connection to God, right? I’m in the church because God tells me. To be in the church because God knows it will serve me and my family and that I also can, that the church can benefit and I can benefit. And that’s the best, the best way around us for me and my family to stay involved in the church. I’m in the church because God told me to. I hope that I, because God told me to be in the church. I hope that that’s the direction that all of us go. And I think that Understanding the truth of polygamy can be a good step to help us if, if, if our relationship is first and foremost with the church, and we think that our connection to God goes through the church, I think this understanding about polygamy can be a, a, um, really good way to sort of fix that relationship and bring it in better alignment the way that I happen to think it should be. And so, um, oh, let’s see, time Markham. Now that the LDS Church has purchased the Kirtland Temple and all the documents from the community of Christ, why wouldn’t the church be willing to open up and embrace the other branches? Oh, well, first of all, I have to say, Ty, this is Ty who painted these gorgeous portraits I have behind me, and I have other portraits in the other room as well. So Ty, thank you so much for the beautiful artwork that you have, that you’ve given me, and thank you for the question. And I don’t, I don’t think I understand the question or know quite how to answer it. Um, the different branches of the restoration all have different views and different perspectives on different things. They even have, like, the community of Christ has a different doctrine and covenants at this point that we have, and, um, and so I don’t think it’s a matter of owning the um the buildings, you know, and the documents in order to be able to accept the other branches that maybe I’m misunderstanding. I do hope that all of those um All of those sites will be kept sort of, you know, I, like I had a conversation with it, hoping that they would be somewhat non-denominational and not kind of like, now they’re ours, now we get to tell our version of it. You know, I know that that was a hard thing for some people, but, um, if that’s what you’re asking about. But as far as I know, I, I don’t think that that’s that owning those, um, Documents and locations is more likely to make the church more opened up. And so, um, oh, I have, let’s see if we’re getting a lot of questions coming in. OK, so we have 22 chats on the expositor. You mentioned on Mormon stories that the expositor is the best evidence for the other side. How do you deal with laws affidavits? OK, this is one thing I did want to talk about, so thank you for asking this question. So I have Back when I was doing the expositor, I meant to do my 4th episode, which was Hirum and the High Council, but I got derailed because people were, um, yelling at me to get to another topic that I had talked about that I was going to do. And so I did, um, my Temple series instead and then did a bunch of other topics, and I haven’t ever gotten back to that. Things just keep coming up. So I have decided, especially because just this week, um, Mormonish re-released an episode they did clear back, I don’t know, a year and a half or more. Go with RFM on the expositor with um what it’s it’s just it’s interesting to me because they all think these are new discoveries when these are things that have been talked about for 10 years and in the Facebook group that I started, we were talking about these things clear back then and so but I guess anytime someone discovers something that’s new to them. And so I am pushing everything aside and I’m going to do my now two episodes on the expositor. I have a new document, a new document. None of these are new documents. I have a document that I think is extremely important to bring to the conversation involving the laws, um, um, and, and Cole’s affidavit affidavits, and so I will be getting those ready as quickly as I possibly can. I In fairness, I, I just lost a complete week of work both in my home and with my family and all of my other responsibilities as well as the podcast. So I’m not sure how quickly I can get everything caught up and get these out, but I will get them out as quickly as I as as humanly possible because I think that this is the focus that we need to have. So let me say really quickly, let me just encapsulate an important thing that people miss. There’s much more to be said than this. The fact that we see similar language in the expositor and in 132 is not surprising and is not impressive, and I think people are making way too much of it. So first of all, my view on 132 is that it, it is an amalgamation. We know based on so so um on June 8th and June 10th, I talked about this a little bit in Mormon Stories. On June 8th and June 10th of 1844, they had two city council meetings discussing what to do with the Navo expositor. And um and the um and, and the decision that was made, right, the decision eventually was made to tear it down. And so in that meeting they talked about the um just one second, sorry, they talked about the revelation that Joseph has received. So I think there’s strong, strong evidence to say Joseph did receive a revelation and they talked about what it was. And we have in the Willard Richards record of Joseph Smith, if we want to call it Joseph Smith’s journal is really Willard Rickards Richard’s record of Joseph Smith. Um, we have, um, Joseph talking, uh, we have just recorded that received a revelation, right? And it doesn’t say what it was on, but then on June 6 July 16th, 4 days later, that was on July 12, 1843, 4 days later, Joseph preached all day at the temple square on the temple lot, and he talked extensively. About eternal marriage. And he cited, um, oh, I should have looked it up beforehand. I want to say it’s either Matthew 20 and Luke 22 or something like that. I want to say Luke 20, Luke 22. Anyway, it’s where the Sadducees are asking Jesus about the, um, woman that had 7 husbands and whose wife would she be, right? Um, and that’s where Jesus says, you understand nothing at all. Um, and then he says, in, in, um, in heaven, they neither marry nor are given in marriage. And so, um, the thing that’s important to understand that we have further evidence of of Joseph teaching about this eternal marriage, revelation that he’d had. He had taught about it previously, but this seems to be the central revelation, and he taught that he couldn’t see more about it until the temple was done. We have Hiram Smith teaching the same thing on April 8th, 1844, talking about eternal marriage that Joseph taught, and then in that high council meeting, we have them saying this is exactly what the revelation was, and they cite the exact same scriptures and teach the same things. We have this consistent through line. Joseph and Hyrum’s testimony is actually remarkably accurate and consistent about what they had taught. Joseph said he had taught all of the Um, heavy doctrines publicly. Sorry, I’m going to take one second. I’m trying to get a message. Can someone please bring me water? I didn’t bring water in with me, which was really dumb, and they’re not getting the message that I’m sending. So now I can focus on my whole brain cause I’m not trying to beg for water while I’m talking. I should have had it ready to go. But um we have, um, anyway, what was I saying? So we, we know that Joseph was teaching um or that Joseph received and taught a revelation on eternal marriage, and Joseph said that he taught all of the strongest doctrines publicly, which we also know we have the King Fala discourse, right? where he taught about a plurality. Of gods is what he was, he was accused of teaching about a plurality of gods, at least as much as he was accused of anything about a plurality of wives, including in the expositor. So Joseph’s testimony seems to be remarkably accurate and consistent with what we find. And if you go to, I’m trying to open it up right now. So, I’m still a little fuzzy brain, so I know I, I can tell. Not quite on my game, but thank you so much. Um, OK, so if we go to 132, let’s just go to it really quickly. I will be doing full episodes with much more information than just this. But if you go to section 132, you can see this full section starting. Um, and, and about verse 14 or verse 15, where it says, therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, right, and it goes through, um, through all of these verses in these teens, it talks about in verse 18 again, and again, verily. I say unto you, if a man marry a wife and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, and it says it again, I’m 19, and again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is by my law, and all of these parts, and I don’t think it’s necessarily that they, uh, we know that when they forged and altered um true documents, they would fit little words in here and there. And so I don’t think it’s necessarily that these verses are pure from Joseph Smith, because there are some problems in them in them as well that seem to be later additions. But the point I’m trying to make is nothing from the laws or Austin Cole’s refers to any of these verses at all. These are the verses that are consistent with the revelation that Joseph and Hyrum both taught publicly and both said that Joseph received, right? And so we have strong evidence that 132 is an amalgamation of whatever fault. false revelation was going around Nauru. We have many claims of people claiming that Joseph received a revelation on it before 1843, before anything was even supposed to have been written down. We have many claims of that happening and Let’s see. Um, oh, I’ll get, I’ll get to Cheryl’s question in just a second. And so, um, so it, it was put together at some point later based on the, um, I think portions of the true revelation and portions of whatever. These false revelations were that may have been seen that the laws may have seen and that Austin Coles may have seen and that’s, that’s, I think the best explanation for 132 and I have a little more to say on it, but Cheryl Bruno, hello Cheryl, is asking if 132 was an amalgamation. Who put it together. It’s true that it doesn’t fit Joseph Smith’s polygamy, but it doesn’t fit Brigham’s either. And Cheryl knows we have actually discussed this question at depth. I actually asked this question to her. This is a big problem for 132 is it doesn’t match anybody’s polygamy. It’s like, why is 132 what we have? It’s a problem for every side. Because it talks so much about virgins and it talks so much about these other things. So it is a good question to say who put it together. We do have other sources from the RLDS Church talking about different people that claimed to have been involved with it, and I think that there was likely some doctrine or insights that were coming from England from different. Um, different ideas there as well. So 132 isn’t a clean, well thought out doctrine and it certainly isn’t a revelation that Joseph Smith received. And I know, uh, so anyway, I, I got thrown off what I was. Going to finish saying, let me get back to the point. Oh, the last point I want to make is it’s really important to recognize an RFM. I, I talked about this in the response I did to him clear back. But, um, Law himself, William Law, in his later interviews with Dr. Weil, which, and, and John asked, Aren’t those bad sources that you don’t treat sources like that. You don’t just throw out an entire source, right? You look at the source and see if there are problems with it and see if there’s corroborating evidence and what the motives might be. But William Law himself said that whatever he saw was a three-page document, and it didn’t say any of that stuff. It just had the command to do it, right? That’s an important piece of information to keep in mind when we are using law, as the author of the affidavit we’re trying to use to validate that 132 is what he saw, right? He himself said, no, that’s not what I saw. That’s a really, really important. Piece of the puzzle to keep in mind. We also have people like James Whitehead saying that he saw the revelation on eternal marriage and that that it was much shorter and didn’t include any of the portions on plural marriage. So I think we can make a very, very strong case that that’s what’s happening with Section 132. We know for a fact that, um, well I guess I want to say. I don’t necessarily know which way it happened. I don’t know that, um, whoever, whoever amalgamated 132, and Cheryl’s right, we don’t know exactly who it is. And they did a bad job because it doesn’t fit anybody’s polygamy. But, um, but I will say. Brigham Young tends to talk much more about a lot of these ideas than Joseph Smith did. I’ve looked all over trying to find who talks more about virgins. Definitely seems to lean more into Brigham Young’s way of thinking things, although Brigham Young also took plenty of married women. So it’s hard to explain. But, um, but, and, and I have found one case where Brigham Young refers to Isaac as a polygamist. I’ve never seen Joseph Smith do that. So that seems like a pretty important point to take into consideration as well. I’ll, I’ll be talking about that in my episodes. But, um, anyway, there was one other point I was going to make. I’ve lost it. Hopefully that at least gives some idea. There’s much to be said about the expositor. It’s important, but it is not the, um, the case that the people who are using it to make that case think it is. It’s, um, it’s much more complicated than that. And the fact that we see echoes of it from the affidavits and the exposo do not prove that it was from Joseph Smith. So, um, OK, this is someone asking if we agree that polygamy is not of God, what difference does it make today whether Joseph practiced it or not. That’s, that’s fair. That was a question that I was asking for quite a while, like, The only important question is whether or not it’s from God. For members of the church, it doesn’t matter if it was Joseph or Brigham, we have the same problem. That was exactly what I thought, but um, as I, I’ve talked about this before as well, as I went on, I learned differently. First of all, If if Joseph truly was a servant of the Lord, and we are saying things about him that aren’t true, and if Emma was a servant of the Lord and we’re saying things about her that aren’t true, and the same for Hiram, that matters. That just matters for its own sake. The truth matters for its own sake, but also, um, Yeah, I, I guess we can accept the Book of Mormon no matter what, just on its own merits. I don’t base my value on the Book of Mormon on a testimony of Joseph Smith. I’ve always thought it was backward to do that. If we have any sort of testimony of Joseph Smith, which I think our testimony should be in the savior, right? Not in any people. But if we do want to say we have a testimony of Joseph Smith, I think that should become because of the Book of Mormon. I don’t think it should go the other way around. But um, But I, um, what is, what am I trying to say? But I do think that knowing this about Joseph Smith does make it easier to accept the restoration as a whole, without the taint of polygamy that I think is so negative, so negative. So, um, anyway, I hope that answers that question well enough. And we have Watcher Palmer calling in. So

[1:18:41] Caller: Luther how are you?

[1:18:41] Michelle: I’m good. How are

[1:18:42] Caller: you? Thanks for taking my call. Oh man, I’ve really enjoyed this live, uh, broadcast. I just kind of stumbled on it, um, kind of relaxing tonight and so glad that, uh, Your show popped up on my feed here. I have a question for you. OK, so I’ve been kind of stuck on this, uh, This the ceiling, the ideas. Of how we view a ceiling today. Versus how the ceiling is presented in scripture. So we have Book of Mormon ceiling with Nephi being able to have the ceiling powers. And all it had to do with was like sealing the heavens, or causing a famine, or releasing the famine, and he had ceiling powers. We have the same thing. With um. Um, Oh gosh, I just forgot, um. Um, Elijah, he, and he’s the one that brought the ceiling powers back supposedly, right? It has nothing to do with ceiling. Like families and marriages and things like that. It all had to do with With controlling the elements. But we do have Peter with that, that which is bound on earth shall be bound in heaven, and Peter’s given that. And what will be loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven. So I’m wondering if the ceiling. Uh, that we think of it today wasn’t influenced by this. This whole polygamy thing. And validating that. And how we’ve taken the scriptural aspect of ceiling and kind of tied it into Multiple ceilings. I don’t know what what’s your thoughts on that?

[1:20:54] Michelle: Oh, I think this is such a good question, and it’s actually one of those things that um That, uh, do, do you, do you not like me to say your real first name? It says Luther on this. Do you want me to call you Luther or Watcher Palmer? So,

[1:21:06] Caller: so Luther’s my Luther’s my name. Watch your Palmer my, my channel. I mean you can call me either. I don’t care. OK.

[1:21:13] Michelle: OK. All right. So, um, so I, this is a question that I would actually love to like get together for dinner and hammer out because there I have so many thoughts on it, and I don’t have a lot of firm conclusions yet. But it does seem to me that Joseph Smith changed the meaning of sealing, because I do think there’s evidence that Joseph’s, well, I, I, I don’t think there is strong evidence that Joseph taught about ceiling. And, um, and I think he taught about like, like eternal marriage as a ceiling based on this, um, the, the speeches that he gave on July 16, 1843 that I was just talking about in regard to, um, in regard to Doctrine Covenants 132. And then he also talked about sort of sealing people to himself. Almost, if I imagine it correctly, if I understand it correctly, almost like he was sealed to God, so people were sealed to him somehow he, he said, seal all you can be wily, you know, if, if these sources are accurate. He said he would carry his people into heaven as his backload and um. And I’m not, I’m not sure what I think of all of that, because I agree with, um, you that when we read the Doctrine of, I mean, when we read the Book of Mormon, the ceiling seems to be about, like, like you said, um, the elements, and then also I think like preserving the records, right, that they were able to say that the records wouldn’t, wouldn’t age anymore, things like that. But, but I don’t, I definitely don’t see anything about sealing families together and um. And so, so I guess for me, and I know that people might want to butcher me for saying this, but this is how I operate. For me at this point, Joseph Smith is a little bit on trial with that. It like I, I haven’t yet come to understand whether I fully agree with Joseph Smith or not, you know, like I need to understand better what he was teaching and where he was getting it from. And why he viewed it that way. I like the fact that he, um, was responding to what Jesus said about they neither marry nor are given in marriage. I know that that caused a lot of, um, sorrow for many in Christendom thinking that, um, mortal relationships end with this life, you know? And so I really like how Joseph reinterpreted that to say that’s because we seal on this earth and And Joseph talked about the ceiling, the power to seal is the power to record, right? And Doctrine Covenants, I want to say 127 and 128, where he said, he said that literally, he said, in other words, if we render it differently, the power to um record on Earth and and the the books in heaven will be, will record what is recorded on Earth and that is. The power to seal, which became important to me when I realized that there are no records of any of Joseph’s supposed plural wives, and so he couldn’t have claimed to seal when he viewed sealing and recording as the same thing based on those two sections. So I think this is a really, really good question. That I, I think there’s more investigation. I know some people may be going crazy because they understand it all and or at least think they do or claim they do, but it’s something that I don’t fully understand yet. And so what do you think of what I’ve said so far?

[1:24:31] Caller: Well, I like it, and I, it, what it reminded me of was Jacob 5. With the word that’s used so many times is preserved, so sealing, like, like when you seal something like when you’re bottling fruit like a jar, yeah, you seal it or you preserve it, so we’re being preserved to the family of God in a sense. So that what you were saying reminded me of what Jacob 5 says. And I think that’s more of what I feel comfortable with the ceiling. Um, but I do think it’s been corrupted a little bit, not by Joseph. But Perhaps afterwards to um validate. Practices that that the Lord had to make a correction on. If that makes sense.

[1:25:27] Michelle: Say that last part one more time, sorry that you said. So,

[1:25:30] Caller: so, so. The the the idea of sealing. I think perhaps got a little corrupted and the Lord had to make a correction on that by by um doing away with polygamy because ceiling and polygamy are almost synonymous to a lot of people. Um, even, even current people that have multiple ceilings. They go, well, we still believe in polygamy then because you’re sealed to multiple spouses. A guy can be sealed to multiple spouses. And so I, I just think that, I think the word ceiling has to be really uh studied. Of what the real meaning is and was. And separate it from Maybe some falseness that had to be corrected.

[1:26:29] Michelle: I, I think you are exactly right. I love that insight, and I think you’re right that whatever ceiling was, it got twisted into this other thing.

[1:26:38] Caller: It got twisted. Yeah, it got twisted. And, and, and now it’s almost synonymous sometimes. OK, can I have, can I ask one more question?

[1:26:45] Michelle: Yes, yeah. I, I want to share one thing because I actually just really quickly and then before you ask the rest of your question, because you said that about preserved, which I, I love that insight, like sealing a jar for preserving it, right? And it just reminded me of Luke 17, where it says, Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it, and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. So there’s another insight that gives, gives, um, you know, more, more evidence for that. So I really like that idea of preserve

[1:27:15] Caller: and ALMA also says like putting the grain or the or the harvest in the garners to protect, protect it. It’s uh. It’s a protection, it’s a preserving, it’s a ceiling, yeah, anyway,

[1:27:31] Michelle: good

[1:27:32] Caller: good

[1:27:32] Michelle: salt preserves, yes, and where to be the salt of the earth. Yep, love it. OK, good insights. Thank you.

[1:27:38] Caller: OK. OK, the, the other question I don’t know. So in your um I mean, you’ve been, you’ve worked so hard on all this and studied it. Um, The people I run across. That have had Difficulty with the polygamy issue. And, you know, we all say, well, their activity in the church, or leaving the church, or staying in the church, it all depends on your worthiness and you just make Outside things and excuse for either leaving or wanting to stay in or, or whatever. But, but my experience is is there’s more people that struggle with their belief that the church is still the Lord’s vehicle to use, that there’s more of that struggle with the idea that Joseph had. You know, many wives and, and some were even, you know, teenage, that that’s more of a uh a challenge for their faith than than saying that Brigham Young. Was really the instigator or Um, You know, the founder really of of polygamy. So, so what, what’s your like, because you, I get complaints all the time for what I say on my channel that I’m leading people astray because I don’t believe Joseph Smith practiced or preached polygamy. But my experience is it’s just the opposite. More people are more frustrated with the idea. That the profit of the last dispensation. Joseph Smith. was would publicly lie to people and yet secretively have have this other teaching for just a select few. That seems to challenge more people than to say, you know what, Brigham Young, he was, he was quite a Quite a renegade, the Lord used him and And, and the Lord had to rein in some of his, uh, some of his teachings, and he did. We have proof of that. You even mentioned that earlier on in this, in this live broadcast, but I find that a lot easier to swallow. Then Joseph Smith was a liar in public.

[1:30:10] Michelle: I think you’re exactly right. It is, it is shocking to me how people claim that this perspective leads people out of the church. First of all, The truth should matter no matter what, right? Like, do what, like, like, like, the truth will reign supreme and whatever consequences may come from the truth, the truth is the most important thing. So we shouldn’t decide what we’re going to believe based on what the consequences are going to be. It should be what is we should believe what is truthful. But in addition, I don’t know of anything that has destroyed more testimonies and that has hurt the church more than polygamy. Like polygamy has been the The poison in the church from the beginning. As soon as polygamy became public, that is when um um missionary work, not missionary, but conversion, dropped off like crazy. The church stopped growing. This church started receiving all kinds of persecution, getting a horrible reputation, right? And that is carried on. And then now, once polygamy, once the um polygamy started coming back into focus, it again has destroyed, I mean, The church bled members for a couple of decades, and I don’t know how it’s doing now, but this idea of Joseph Smith’s polygamy has just As has really, really been bad for the church. And so the idea that somehow us saying, guess what, Joseph Smith was faithful to his wife and told the truth. The fact that that would be more damaging to the church than saying the opposite. Guess what? Joseph Smith secretly secretly. and lived the doctrine of having many wives and concubines. Oh, and guess what? He never really told his wife about it, right? The, the fact that that they think is a better way to, to help people gain, um, a testimony of the Book of Mormon or remain active in the church is insane to me. Isn’t that what you’re saying? That Am I understanding correctly?

[1:32:17] Caller: Yeah. Yeah, exactly, no, exactly,

[1:32:20] Michelle: yeah. So I completely agree with you. So, oh, and, and you had said that we would need to get back together again and um on your channel when you get back in town, so I’ve been waiting for your phone call, so call me anytime.

[1:32:32] Caller: I know we got back from Israel last week and I’m just trying to catch up and then we will definitely get back together and have a good chat.

[1:32:42] Michelle: I love it. I appreciate so much all you do. Thank you for everything you do and

[1:32:46] Caller: thanks for. And likewise, thank you, love you, and God bless. Thanks.

[1:32:50] Michelle: Love you too. I’ll talk to you later. OK, I want to take a second to, first of all, thank Mason Webb. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And your phone call and all that you do, you are a gem and thank you so much. And it looks like we also have, um, Adventures of feast. I’m gonna be embarrassed that I can’t, um, pronounce it. And Aglia, I’ve just shown my ignorance. What is your belief about prophets in general? Do we need a prophet? If so, why? Oh, that’s really an interesting good question. I, I will say that since we have the church, we need some, we need people to run the church, right? And so we do need a president of the church, I think, to, um, administer the church. And that’s, that’s what that calling is and what that position is. And I think that, um, the question of profits is a, is a, it’s actually a Complicated one. We tend to oversimplify it in, um, in, uh, in our just like the thinking when we don’t think about it carefully. But I, I like going to that, um, Q&A that and from 1842 that Joseph Smith answered, where, where he, the question was, do you believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet? And Joseph Smith himself answered and said, Yes, and anybody else who has, I believe it was the prof, the, the spirit of Christ. Is that what it is? I’m, I’m, I’m butchering it. Someone’s gonna have to correct me if I’m wrong. But basically, the idea that Moses taught and that Joseph taught and that others taught that the gift of prophecy is the testimony of Christ, right? And that is the spirit of prophecy. And so I believe like, like Moses said, would to the, to the Lord that all that God’s people were prophets, right? We are all to be prophets. And so I don’t know that the, the, the concept of a prophet, only one prophet. I I think it is actually new to us in this, in this time in our church because if we look at Lehi, right, there were many prophets in the land that he said that began to be to to be prophesying from the Lord. And so I think in some ways we tend to limit ourselves too much with that. So, but I would say yes, we do need um prophets, and I think what we need to do is have our own connection to God. And established well enough to be able to discern true voices from false. I think that’s really important. And then be seeking to develop that gift of, um, that spirit of prophecy within ourselves, right? To develop the, the, um, spirit of Christ well enough that we ourselves can each prophesy as we need to in our, in our individual callings. I think we each receive in Inspiration, I think that’s important. So hopefully that answered that question. I think we have another caller. Oh, I need to, well, I’ll take Caitlin’s call and then I need to announce something. So that I forgot to announce earlier. So Caitlyn, hello, thank you for calling in. It’s good to hear from you in person.

[1:35:45] Caller: Hi, can you hear me OK? I’m with you. Yep, I can hear you great. OK. OK, hi, um, nice to talk to you like at all, like I talked to you online, but it’s nice to talk to, um. Um, I’m calling because I have, I have what I think are the strongest theological and historical arguments, and I was wondering what you think are, it’s like there’s two categories of Joseph not being a poi. There is a theological argument and then there is the historical evidence. If you had to nail down to one thing, which one would it be?

[1:36:23] Michelle: I always prefer, I, I think that the theological question is the more important one. And that’s because for me, the most important question is always, is polygamy of God, right? And so, um, so I think, I think that’s the most important thing for people to understand. Like, the nature of God is what is central to Our testimonies. Our testimonies should be in God more than in any person. And so I think that the theological question has bearing on the nature of God. And so, and, and then also I really, um, yeah, anyway, I, I, I like studying it out and, and arguing it in the scriptures. So for that reason, I think that the theological, um, um, discussion should never be left out.

[1:37:12] Caller: So. So what evidence in this theological area would you consider to be the most convincing, you know, people use the Old Testament scriptures. What would in a theological would Jacob to be your most weightiest argument? You’d be like, OK, you can’t kind of beat this, like what would be the biggest Like I do feel like it’s not a God. Well, what, what would you?

[1:37:38] Michelle: Yeah, so you’re catching me a little off guard cause I don’t have time to think about it, but off the top of my head, I would say um Doctrine Covenants 42 and 49 are pretty strong. Right? And so for anyone listening, Doctor Mc Covenants 42 is the law of the Lord given to the church. It was called the law of the Lord, and um, and 22 says thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart and shall cleave unto her and none else. And then Doctor Covenant 49. It was the revelation kind of in response to the shakers. Let me get to the verse and verse 16 says wherefore it is lawful that he should have one wife and they twain shall be one flesh and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation. Those and then there are others in the doctrine cabinets as well on top of the um the Book of Mormon, the many prohibitions against many wives and concubines in the Book of Mormon combined with the um the retranslation of the Old Testament which increased the condemnation of David for his polygamy and. And then also the um problems of 132. I don’t know how you can possibly justify the Book of Mormon repeatedly condemning many wives and concubines with verse one of 132 declaring the doctrine of many wives and concubines. I, those would be some of the stronger arguments I would think. What do you think? Well,

[1:39:06] Caller: I like the, um, well, I really like the DNC reference because it does explain the October entry of on this law. You know, that a lot of people want to like, what law is you talking about? Well, it’s, it’s already written twice, you know, so I really, I didn’t think of those two. but uh history, I think what doesn’t get spoken as a as much is the fact that Joseph Smith sued. Defamation on the historical side, that is a huge indicator of his innocence because no guilty man would do that mainly because of discovery. And I just don’t know why that’s not addressed. I, that, that should be addressed. I feel like a little bit more.

[1:39:44] Michelle: Oh, I think I talk about that a lot. I brought that up with John Dehlin in the interview and um uh-huh, I, I’m pretty sure I did.

[1:39:51] Caller: Yeah, I must admit that part. Yeah, yes,

[1:39:54] Michelle: I agree with you.

[1:39:56] Caller: I thought you, but I mean in conversations like that is uncharacteristic of a guilty man too. To sue somebody for something that they’re doing in secret like that doesn’t make sense.

[1:40:06] Michelle: I completely agree with you. And also when they sue, um, in regard to Ormus Boswick, right, when they sue him for defamation againstyrum and and almost all of the women of Navu, it’s kind of the same thing. They sue and that’s what that’s one of the things that makes me crazy about. The Joseph Smith papers is it gives little caveats about Hiram had just married some women. You’re exactly right. Guilty men can’t sue, right? And so

[1:40:34] Caller: the fact discovery ruins that like it’s like everybody forgets about discovery like that, you know, that’s part of the process,

[1:40:42] Michelle: right, I think that those are great. So, so how did I do? Did I make the arguments that you agree with or?

[1:40:49] Caller: Well, I thought you said that those chapters in DMC, like those are not ones that I normally reference, so um I will um use those words. Thank you.

[1:40:58] Michelle: That, that’s great. And then also, of course, the all of the altered records, I mean, as soon as we get going, it’s like the pile gets high fast of the evidence we need to include, but Kaitlin, I so appreciate you all your, your voice in this um in this fight. You do a great job. Thank you so much and thank you for calling.

[1:41:18] Caller: Thank you for your doing what you do. I appreciate it.

[1:41:20] Michelle: Yeah, thank you. OK, let’s see if we have a follow up. Um, Miriam was Miriam was chastised when she tried to correct Moses. God said he would speak to Moses himself if he wanted something to change thoughts. Oh, yeah, I’ll have to look up to that, look at that. I know I um addressed that quite a bit when I um was talking about. Um, and when I did my episodes on Moses as opposed to polygamy. And so, yeah, I think, I think in general, that, that’s a really good point, but I don’t necessarily know. I don’t like systems where it’s kind of like the guy in charge has all of the answers and no one from below has anything to say. I think that the situation with Miriam was very different. I think she was being extremely critical. Of the fact that Moses chose to marry Zipporah, who was not of the acceptable tribes, right? I think there’s a difference between being highly critical of something about somebody and also saying, Hey, can we talk about this? I have a different view. You know, I, I think, I think that the truth is there somewhere, um, in between. And so I don’t think that it’s that, um, I don’t. I think anybody should put themselves above reproach or above feedback. I think that that would be unfortunate, right? I’ve said, I’ve said before that with my children, if I ever were to say, I am your parent, God gives me inspiration for you. So I will tell you when you need to go to the bathroom. I will tell you when you need to eat, I will tell you when you need to sleep. Right? That would not be a good system. I need to take my children’s feedback and listen to them and what they are saying they needs. So I think the same is true, um, with profits that it works best when it’s, uh, communication, um, when the communication channels are working well is when I think, um, that, that, um, that, anyway, that, that, that following the profit works the best in those types of situations. And so, yeah, I think, I think those are interesting questions that I don’t often think about before we take the next. Call or um we, we have a call on the line, but I need to announce something that I should have announced from the very beginning and we may only have time to, um, give a few of these away because I’ve waited so long and we’re just about done. But I have a huge announcement. We have been gifted by a generous donor. We have been gifted 10 free tickets to the Journal of Mormon Polygamy conference coming up March 21st and 22nd. And so I will announce that now that anybody who would like those, go ahead and chat in now or call now and maybe we’ll give 5 of them away tonight to the 1st 5 people who either call in or join the chat asking for one of these tickets. I have huge gratitude to the generous donor who made this possible. So these are live um in-person tickets to attend in person to the Journal of Moments. Still be on your own to pay for the lunch that you choose. Oh we have Ty Mark. We have one of them claimed already. Ty, I, there’s no one I would rather give it to. Thank you, um, for, for texting in so quickly. And so, OK, I hope that our people out there can keep track of the people claiming, um, the texting and these are hopefully are going to people who couldn’t afford to come otherwise because if anyone can afford. To come, please pay for your own ticket and come. But anyone who would who would come if they could afford the ticket, please call in, text in, just go ahead and join the chat and claim these these tickets right now. We would love to give them to you and huge thanks to our generous donor. OK, while we wait for the rest of those tickets to be claimed, we have Cheryl Clout on the phone. Cheryl, hello. Oh, I guess she’s there now. Cheryl, are you there now? Yeah. Oh, hello. It’s so good to hear from you. I, I go ahead and turn your computer down so that you can just hear me over the phone instead.

[1:45:24] Caller: OK, let me go in here. Hi, Michelle.

[1:45:28] Michelle: Hi, how are

[1:45:29] Caller: you? Can you hear me? Can you hear me OK?

[1:45:32] Michelle: I can, yeah, most of you will remember Cheryl and Dan have been on my program a couple of times. They are delightful members of the restoration branches. Who have been in this quite longer than I have been.

[1:45:48] Caller: Can you hear me OK, Michelle, because I went in the other room. OK. I, um, I’m really glad to talk to you too. And after that last guy that called in and he was talking about feeling, and I told Dan, I said, I’ve got to call in because, you know, I inherited, you know, my mom, if my mom died, I got all my ancestors stuff and I just was rereading a lot of their old patriarchal blessings. And I know one of the things that pertains to the ceiling and it was on, it also was into the RLDS church. Was Joseph Smith was sealing people up to eternal life and celestial glory to send their patriarchal blessings. I do know that. Mhm. OK, so I, you know, I wanted to make sure that that part of ceiling was, you know, told. I didn’t know if people knew that, that they were actually the patriarchs was doing that.

[1:46:45] Michelle: So, oh, so, oh no, what you’re bringing up, you’re bringing up a really important point. First of all, I’m so glad you called in to make this point because, because I think it absolutely needs to be said, and, and I did not say it at all. So it’s, thank you. So much for calling in. I, I do know that if I search the Joseph Smith papers for ceilings, that’s what comes up, right? Is being sealed up to eternal life. And then, um, and so, but you’re saying that it was the patriarch that was doing that. So it was Joseph Smith Senior that was seeing people up to eternal life.

[1:47:17] Caller: Well, not him, but my, my, some of my ancestors had other patriarchs that were, you know, giving them their blessings, and, uh, this was in the early of the church and the organization after they joined into the organization and it’s, it’s bleeding back, Danny and um so um. You know, in those blessings because these are like late 1800s, you know, that time period on up and so I know that those were carried over from the early church into the reorganization because and I’ve got 5 patriarchal blessings that says that they were being sealed, sealed to eternal life and they would receive Celestial Rory. That’s exactly how it’s worded. OK, so.

[1:48:04] Michelle: That, so that,

[1:48:06] Caller: you know, like that.

[1:48:08] Michelle: Those are from the RLDS Church after Joseph Smith the 3rd, um, um, stepped in as the president, right? That is such a good insight. OK, I really appreciate you sharing that, Cheryl, because now I can take that as I study it further in the Joseph Smith papers to try to wrap my head around everything Joseph Smith was doing with ceiling. But um, but I think you’re exactly right that Joseph Smith, that that’s the main thing I see is him sealing people up to eternal life, and then you said celestial glory. Is the other part. Yes. OK, that is really good to know. I really go ahead.

[1:48:49] Caller: I also want to tell you that Dan and I just love you. We love your podcast, we love all the people that’s Been on your show and are helping you behind the scenes. It is, it’s just wonderful and, and I was telling Karen on the phone before I come on that I knew, Michelle, I had this feeling that you were going to get sick right before, before you went on the John Dehlin. And I know that because there must need to be opposition in all things. And every time You are you and I’ve been through this personally, so I’m speaking for myself too. Whenever you’re about to be used by God to bring more light and truth. You’re gonna be attacked. spiritually. Because the evil one doesn’t want you to tell the truth. And get the more truth out there. And do you remember when in 2019, I told you I think that I, I had, I, I literally got thrown in a hole. Yeah, 4 days before we were going to Utah. And I broke my right ankle and destroyed my left foot at the same time, and I was, I had, I was laid up for 8 months. I was in bed for 15 weeks after surgery. From, uh, the, the all the pins and stuff they put in my foot. And that was 4 days before I was getting ready to go to Utah. We had our suitcases packed and, you know, one of my, one of the persons that we were gonna go out there, I’m not gonna say his name, you know what I’m talking about, one of the persons that we were gonna go out there and share with. Uh, was a dear friend of ours and um that I’d met, you know, on a tour, you know, and He lost his faith right after we didn’t go, we weren’t able to go, and he lost his faith, and now I don’t know what’s happened to him, and I feel really bad and But anyway, I want to ask all your audience that’s listening, pray for Michelle, keep her in your prayers daily. She needs to be upheld by God as much as possible.

[1:51:12] Michelle: Cheryl, I appreciate you so much and I appreciate that so much. I I do, I, I will say on um what was it just yesterday or Friday, I had started to feel like maybe I was starting to get a little better and then all of a sudden I got sicker than sick again and I was having a hard time breathing and I was not able to sleep. And it was where my head hurts so bad and my fever was so hot, it felt like I, I was gonna, like my head was gonna explode and I I was having an increasingly hard time breathing, and I did. I just send out a word like, please send me all your good, everything. And I will say yesterday I just sat feeling the prayers. I explained it to one friend joking, like, to Emmanuel, who had helped me. I said, I feel like I’m just doing and all the good juju, you know, like. I, I, I definitely recognize the prayers and I appreciate them so much, and I do feel like I need them. Thank you. Thank you,

[1:52:23] Caller: Sheryl. Uh, we, we will be praying and hopefully we were gonna try to come out in March, but Danny’s on jury duty at the time, so. Um, we’re not able to come with the other men that are coming out from the restoration branches, we’re not able to come, but Dan and I are gonna try to come in June, so hopefully in June we’ll get together and see you. We’ll,

[1:52:47] Michelle: we’ll look forward to it and let people know. Anyone interested, we do have a streaming option for the Journal of Mormon Pygmy. So if anybody’s interested in that that isn’t able to travel to Utah, we’ve, we’ve done our best to make it available to everybody, so you can check that on the website as well. So thank you, Cheryl. I will look forward to talking to

[1:53:05] Caller: you.

[1:53:07] Michelle: All right, OK, have a good night.

[1:53:09] Caller: OK, goodbye.

[1:53:11] Michelle: I think we’re just about oh do we have another? Let’s see. And so, um, yeah, I think, I think I’ve, I’ve just about, I ended up, I had this big long list of questions that I was going to answer that people had sent in, that I had prepared, but actually you guys kept the chat and the phones so busy that um that I’m not going to. Get to get to any of these questions. So maybe what I’ll do, you know what, I’ll type up the questions if I have time to do this, and I will post it on um the um 132problems.org website on the blog post. So anyone that wants to see what some of the questions were and what some of my answers are can go there to see them. And, um, I ended up not needing to go into any of them. And then I do just want to remind everybody, the Journal of Mormon Polygamy Conference, March 21 and 22nd, we’re very excited about it. We have an incredible line of presenters coming and, um, um, panelists and presenters. So the first night we have, um, a presenter named, um, Jerry Spano. who is a mental health professional and excellent counselor who will be talking to us about having good conversations on difficult topics, and he said that he will be able to make himself there available for anybody who starts to feel upset by anything they hear because we are bringing together these different perspectives. Following that, Cheryl Bruno and Maxine Hanks and I will be having a panel discussion on Emma. And then we will be having the keynote speaker by Barbara Jones Brown. The next day, let’s see, I have, I was supposed to have this, um, the full schedule ready to go. So let me see if I can hurry and grab it so I can show it to you before I sign off for the night. I’m assuming that the phones are closed, right? So we’re not getting more um more calls coming in. So let me hurry and find this beautiful, um. Oh, it’s gonna take me just a second. I guess I should have had this ready to go, but this is what happens when you’re sick. Um, I will grab this as fast as I can. OK, Cheryl Bruno, if you’re listening, hurry and send me the schedule again. Oh, I found it. There it is. Never mind. Let me go ahead and um see if I can. Share the screen quickly. OK. Um, this should be it. OK. Here we go. Here’s the schedule, which you should be able to find online at the Journal of Mormonpolygamy.org, and you can see that this is the, um, still the tentative schedule. There’s still this could be some changes to it. But, um, then on on starting on um Saturday is packed full. We have a wonderful training class at 9:00 a.m. It will help people um learn better how to get into the documents for themselves. And then Mary Anne Clements is an excellent researcher and she’s a genealogist and Cheryl Bruno and I tapped her to help us track down who Madison Scott was in. Our paper that we are releasing on on William Clayton’s affidavit and then we will have Peter Brown. He’s he’s helping us understand, helping everybody understand why this movement has grown, what the changes have been. That have brought this movement about. He has an excellent paper. Then we have Don Bradley talking about the Andrew Jensen and his list of polygamists. And then we have our lunch that we’re so excited about. After lunch, we will have our panel discussion on women’s perspectives on polygamy that will have Margaret Toscano and Whitney Horning and Charlotte Erickson and Celine Anderson that will be moderated by. Jasmin Bradley. Then we have, we have several other presenters. Claire Barrett, he’s talking about Here’s Hebrew Kimball’s Lawless Women. This is a great presentation you want to hear, followed by Jeremy Hoop giving his new research, groundbreaking important research on William Clayton and the new and and and the new companion revelation that you will. here um after Jeremy, Jeremy will be Todd Compton, Manifestos and Ambiguity, Joseph Hirum Grant, and the plural marriage. I I’m really excited to hear about that. I’m thinking that’s about um some post-manifesto lumy as well. Then um Gwendolyn Wine, she’s giving her paper followed by our keynote speaker Taylor Petrie. So this is a conference. I, this is an excellent conference. We have worked really hard putting this together and we’re actually really proud of it. I think that this is something that people will be benefited by coming to. Again, if you want one of our tickets, please, um, message in, let us know. We’re about to close the chat for tonight, but we will, we will. We’ll have our list of everybody who is eligible for those 10 free tickets. We’re really excited about that. We have the streaming option and, um, and is that everything? If there’s anybody else who would like to fund other people to be able to come, consider that. Any donations that we receive, we can put those toward funding tickets for other people who would like to attend. But our, um, but It’s a burden for them financially, so thank you again so much. Thank you for all of the support, all of the engagement, all of the help on this topic and in this work that we are doing. I am so happy to know the truth on this topic and I’m so excited to continue to share it. Thank you again for joining in and we will see you next time.