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Watch “Woe Unto You, Scribes: The Hidden History of Polygamy”
Rob Fotheringham, “First LDS Polygamist: Joseph or Brigham?”
Sharing the Scriptural Evidence
Transcript
[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon Polygamy. I am sure that many of my listeners have a lot of questions. Some of those questions will actually be answered in this episode. Some of the things I, um, hope to be, feel good about talking about at some future time, just know that all is well, everything is OK, and I am doing much better now. It has been a very rough week. And in the process of things that have been happening, I have ended up Um, changing some things out and making some big decisions. And so the big episode I had planned for my 3rd anniversary, this is actually the 3rd anniversary of the podcast, and I’ve always done a big anniversary, Valentine’s Day birthday episode. And since I had to switch things up, I was left without an episode this week. So my good friend, Karen H Hyatt, agreed to come on and have a conversation that I have been wanting to have with her for a very long time. And in the course of this conversation, the conversation is, is, I wanted her to come and talk to us about why it’s so, so important to share this message and how she goes about doing it in just this amazing way that I wanted, wanted everybody to be able to hear. But also in the course of the conversation, a lot of. information was talked about, and, um, just a lot of good insights. This is a really good conversation that I hope people will find very meaningful and very worthwhile. So thank you so much for joining us as we take this deep dive into sharing the great news of monogamy. Welcome to 132 Problems. I am so excited to be here with my dear friend Karen. Everybody, all of you know her by now. We have this, um, the conversation has actually been a long time in coming. I’ve been wanting Karen to come on and talk about this for several months now. She is like, I don’t know, the energizer bunny missionary of this good news. Karen, more than anybody else I know, is spreading this good news of the gospel that is the truth about polygamy. And she does it in a way that is amazing to me. And I wanted her to come on and share with all of us how, just, just kind of share a little bit of who she is, how she is, how she does this. What her approach is, just so all of us can kind of learn a little bit about her experiences and really the joy and connection that she is having as she is, um, sharing this message with the people actually in her ward, in her sphere of influence, just anyone, you know, and, and the people downtown and anybody else that she feels inspired to share with. So, Karen, I hope I explained that well. I am really thankful to have you come on and talk about this. And did I leave anything out?
[02:58] Karen Hyatt: No, that’s great. OK, I’m happy to be the energizer bunny.
[03:04] Michelle: Oh, I think it’s fantastic. I guess what I mean is just like, it seems like every time I talk to Karen, it’s like, oh, I talked to these people. I invited these people over. I thought, you know, and I’m just like, that is amazing. And, and I do also, I mean, one thing that I thought, as Karen and I have talked is we each have our own talents, right? We each have our own way, our own talents, our own, um, way of engaging, and we each feel, we each have to Just be inspired by the Lord to know what we are supposed to do at each time and season of our lives. But I did want everyone to kind of hear some of the conversations that Karen and I have been having, cause I love, I love the things that she is doing and the things that she has to share. So first of all, welcome. And is there anything you want us to start by talking about? Anything you want to tell us about what’s been happening lately?
[03:48] Karen Hyatt: Um, well, so I, I get a lot of people asking about, um, uh, have I gotten any response from the apostles, you know, the church leadership. So for anyone who’s new or didn’t hear, um, I turned my, OK, so backing way up, I made a video, a documentary called Woe unto You Scribes, The Hidden History of Polygamy. We’ll put links in the show notes. You can see it at Josephtoldhetruth.org. And all the links to everything that I cite in the movie, all the documentation is at that website. So go there and feel free to share that with anybody. Um, you can also go directly to YouTube and just search W to scribes, it’ll come up. And so, I wanted to share it in an effort to help. I really wanted to share it with the church leadership because they are getting such bad information that I don’t think they know it. So I thought, well, they’re not gonna watch a movie from some Rando, so I turned it into a written Um, presentation, real nice, nice paper color, and, um, gave that to them all, mailed it to them. That’s the only way you can get them something. You cannot hand off anything by hand, it turns out. So anyway, you know, have I heard back? No. And I, I don’t expect to. I would love to. I, I guess I hope to, but I don’t think that’s how they roll. So, um, I hope it’s just made a dent. But for all I know, it went right into the round file in all 12 offices. I don’t know. But, um, that’s off me and that’s to them to do what they want with it. So, having said that, um, I’ll tell you about an experience that I had recently. We got a new state presidency. So I knew there was going to be a visiting general authority. So I thought, well, I’ll throw a couple of these in my bag. Who knows, there’s no way I’m gonna have a chance to talk to him because I’m not just gonna charge up to him and be like, you need to look at this. I knew that just wouldn’t go over and I don’t even know if they’re allowed to accept something like that. But I’ll tell you what happened because it was very, very cool. So during his talk, he came down from the pulpit and was there with the microphone, and I happened to have sat in the second row, which that’s not where I’d usually sit, but I was right there. So he was like 5 ft from me and he says, we’re gonna watch this clip, and, and then we’ll talk about the savior and his character after, after we watch it. So he played the clip of the woman taking in adultery. And that has been so near and dear to my heart. Ever since you, Michelle, pointed out a couple years ago, a year or two ago that When the savior forgave her and then said, go and sin no more, we always interpret that as him wagging his finger now, go and sin no more, don’t do it again. And you have the brilliant insight that It was more than that because it was him saying, look, now you know me. Now you’ve seen my compassion. Now your faith in me is increased, and now you’ve got my power to go and sin no more. I’m empowering you to abstain and to sin no more. And that was so sweet, and of course, that is, that’s our savior. That’s more his character. So this visiting a general authority played that clip. And then asked for comments and comments on the savior’s character. Like there was a small pause enough that all of a sudden I see my hand go up and I was like, I guess we’re answering. So he called on me and I explained what I just said. And he said that is so insightful and. I really appreciate that. And then as he continued with, you know, he took answers from other people. And then as he continued his talk every once in a while, he would say something like, and we know that the savior does empower us, and then he’d motion to me, like as a callback to my comment. And he did that twice. And after the second time, I realized he’s going to come over to me afterwards. He’s gonna shake my hand and he’s gonna thank me for the comment, and I’m gonna be able to put this in his hands very naturally and comfortably, and that is exactly what happened. And so, again, I don’t know what he did with it. He was very gracious and he let me put my contact information in it and was just very nice. And he said, that looks like it was a lot of work. And I said, it was a lot of work. So, um, I don’t know what he did with that afterwards. Maybe nothing. Maybe he read it, but just the Lord, it will bless your efforts as you do your best, and he’s amazing. He’s an amazing choreographer.
[08:39] Michelle: I, I amen to that, the things that um that I have been watching happening, and, and when Karen shared this story with me, cause I did, like, like that has become one of my favorite stories. First of all, going back to the woman taking in adultery and The the epiphany that the savior healed her when he said, go and sin no more. It was the same as saying rise, take up thy bed and walk, right? It was a blessing of healing, and I love that you said empowerment, and then that coming full circle to open the door to you talking to The general authority. And I had a somewhat similar experience at my state conference last year where we had a visiting general general authority who very eagerly shook my hand. I didn’t, I didn’t have your packet to share. I would have loved to, but I just, and then some of the experiences happening this last week, we’ll see when it is appropriate to talk about them. But, um, I just see the Lord’s hand in every detail of what is happening so powerfully. So thank you for sharing that beautiful story. And I think part of the reason for that is just the, um, when we are putting ourselves out there, when we’re seeking opportunities, right? It’s just like they say with sharing, um, being a missionary for the church. When we are open to sharing these, um, these, I guess this part of the gospel that has been made known to us, the Lord opens the way and, and does marvelous things when, whenever the Lord sees fit. But thank you for sharing that, cause I love that story so much. And And I guess having it happen makes you know that it’s not just, like, who knows what he did with it, but the Lord was involved in that. So something will come from it. At some point, even if we don’t ever know the details.
[10:19] Karen Hyatt: I agree, I agree exactly. And we don’t need to know them now, but sometimes we do get to know. Some of the ripple effects. Sometimes he, he’s been very, God’s been very kind to show me some of the ripple effects of some of the things that I share with people, and that’s been so gratifying, but I didn’t expect him to, you know, I didn’t, I thought I would just put the seeds out there and never know if they sprouted or not, but lots of sprouted, and he’s kindly shown me that. And so that’s been a great blessing.
[10:48] Michelle: So, OK, Karen, I’m wondering about sharing an experience, and maybe I’ll go ahead and share it, then you can decide whether to leave it in or not. So anyone who doesn’t already know, Karen is the brilliant editor of my podcast, so she does so much to help. And so she got, gets to make many decisions. about what you guys get to all see. But um when Karen shared that story with me, I shared one of the fun stories that I’ve had with her, which was that, um, another thing that I saw the Lord’s hand in even though I had no idea what was happening at the time. So, um, a friend, um, had another friend coming into town that had wanted to meet with me to, um, to discuss some things. They’re both PhD, um, one of them works for the church, and another one works at a university, and they, um, because of their scholarship, like the, the, the one that works at the church was putting the two of us together. So he said, Should we meet for lunch? And he said, Why don’t you guys just come to the church office building where I Work. And so, so I was like, OK, I guess I’m going to lunch at the church office building, which was, which was, um, there’s a, there’s a big story to that. It was actually like very, very interesting, that whole experience and procedure. But we went down to the cafeteria of the church office building, the three of us, and just found a really out of the way corner. We were kind of like right by both walls, just in the corner of the cafeteria, off to the side. And we’re sitting there talking about all of the things that we were talking about. And, um, the next thing I know, after we’d been there for about half an hour, and we had a long lunch cause we weren’t just eating, we had a lot to talk about. I look up and 2, so, so I was sitting next to the wall and, and one of the, the, the professor was sitting next to me. So, you know, and, and on the other side of him, I saw someone come and sit down. Across the table from his wife to eat their lunch at the cafeteria at the church office building and I about died. I’m not gonna tell you that because everyone I’ve told this story, I’m like, you have to guess. So everyone that’s listening has to take a second and guess who they think it was. They came and sat two seats away. So it was 3 seats away from me, but he couldn’t see me because I was behind this other man. But it didn’t take long for me to realize he heard my voice as we’re in this conversation. So, uh, it was, so for anyone wondering, Karen, who was it? The guy that’s out there. You can guess.
[13:12] Karen Hyatt: I don’t suppose that you had the honor of sitting near the world’s best transparencies. Did you?
[13:20] Michelle: I did, indeed. I could not like I was, I, as soon as I saw him, I just died and the only thing I could think at the and then immediately was like. No way, no way is this happening. God has the greatest sense of humor in the universe. Like I, I was, I had both hands over my mouth, trying, trying so hard not to burst out laughing that I was crying. The people I was sitting with, the two men were like, Are you OK? I’m like, I cannot believe this is happening, you know, and so, um, and. And as soon as, I mean, poor, poor Brian, because here he is just having his lunch and
[14:01] Karen Hyatt: there you are again. And
[14:03] Michelle: there’s this horrible
[14:05] Karen Hyatt: specter, the bane of his existence.
[14:08] Michelle: Yes, yes, and he, he did after he was done eating, he stood up and buttoned his coat and came over and shook my hand and I was like, oh, Brian, how are you? You know, so. So he’s very gracious in person and, um, and I was driving home just going like, I have, uh, the only thing I could take from it in that moment is that God is hysterically funny. Do you know what I mean? Like, there’s no way that was a coincidence because even the man who works at the Um, at the headquarters of the, at the church office building, says he has never once seen him there in all of his years of working there. This is the only time he’s ever seen a Brian Hills, and it was when he was having lunch with me and he came and sat right by us, totally by accident.
[14:47] Karen Hyatt: That’s insane. That’s so cool.
[14:49] Michelle: Well, not,
[14:51] Karen Hyatt: not just the heavenly Father thought that would be fun, but that, that gives you, obviously, you’re sitting there in the church office building talking with these workers and scholars and That’s got to give you a little more legitimacy in Brian’s eyes, just a little to say, uh oh, like she’s something to be reckoned with. We have to take this more seriously. I don’t know, that’s what it seems like.
[15:12] Michelle: Yeah. Well, I was actually when I was speaking to another very well known historian, uh, who spends time in the church office building, and, um, I was sharing this story, and they just had, they were like, Michelle, do you know what this was? I was like, No, tell me. It’s so dumb that I didn’t get the, you know, I didn’t think, but she, but, um, she just told me. Brian needed to see you there with full legitimacy, that you belong there every bit as much as he does. And, you know, that was, and because I, because when I went home, I was so on the drive home, I was praying for the man that works at the church office building, being like, could he get in trouble? Is this? And I was like, No, I’m a member of the church. I’m, you know, like, like, I like, that’s what the Lord told me on my way home. Like, I belong there as much as anybody else. And, um, and so for having her say, Brian had to witness the fact that you are fully legitimate. You have, like, like she, it, it was actually really empowering to hear. And then, and then you had the, like, everyone, you know, it’s the same insight, but it made me go, oh, I don’t know. Yeah. And again, I don’t know what’s gonna come of that. But it was a beautiful experience to have. And then there have been some other things equally crazy. Some like late night phone calls from, I, I won’t share the details of that other experience that I told you. There have been several things that, that like, nobody would believe that those things are happening. But, um, someone did a wrong dial and accidentally called me trying to call someone else 2 times in one night at like 10:30, 11 o’clock at night, and it is someone that Everyone would know that I was like, I had no idea this person had my phone number to even dial the wrong number. So there have been a lot of crazy things happening that just seemed to be bringing this forward a little bit, like more and more all the time. So anyway, let me, thank you for letting me share that funny story cause I thought everyone would get a kick out of it because we sure did. I sure did. Like, OK, God is at work in this. I didn’t, and we are just gonna have to see what happens. And, and I guess I should just back up just a little. I I am not at liberty to talk about much, but I know that people have questions about, um, this last week. And, um, and I, I won’t say much. I will just say, God is at work. God is at work. It’s been, um, I have sort of hibernated this week. I’m regrouping. Um, um, it, it’s thrown me for a loop, but The hand of the Lord is involved powerfully in every single thing that has happened and that is happening. And, um, I’ve had, I had a couple of really, really hard days, and then answers just started pouring out, and it’s been really, um, actually beautiful to see the Lord working. So I’m sure there’ll be more. Information to come at, at, at a future time. But I do want to talk about your adventures in, in what you are doing, talking to everybody. So you can tell us where you want to start with that, because I think it’s a combination of factors. Like, of course, your personality and your talents. But also, I think your intent and your approach and your sort of operating guidelines, right? So I, I have so many thoughts, but I’ll just let you go ahead and start and tell us what you think you would like to share.
[18:16] Karen Hyatt: I love that. I, I like that. I love the word adventures. I’m so excited. about this. I mean, I think, I think it is the best news ever. So people have probably, I can’t remember where I’ve shared this and where I haven’t. So let me just say that I don’t know, a couple of years ago, Rob Fotheringham’s video, who was the first polygamist, Brigham or Joseph, something like that. Um, popped up on my feed, and I don’t know why. My husband might have been poking around in the subject or something, but for some reason it just pops up on my YouTube and it was like, What’s this? I’ve never heard this. And so I listened to it. And I mean, he was thorough. He shows you the receipts. And I’ve told before, I have told before about how he didn’t have links, so I had to like squint at the screen and get the URLs that you could see on his screenshots. To go and look everything up and, and verify as much as I could. And I was done. That it’s just, that was it. My paradigm changed in 2 hours. So it was super cool, and I thought it was the best news ever because it’s, it never has made sense. Of course, all of us, you know, most of us at least feel that it’s never made sense. And we’ve always had to say, well, it doesn’t make sense, but I’ll understand it later. And, um, That’s just having this click into place was just so exciting and what wonderful news for all of us to get rid of that little nagging thing in the back of our minds that was not usually here, but always in the back, like, oh my God to do this.
[19:45] Michelle: Yeah, big pile of rotting stuff off the shelf. Yeah.
[19:49] Karen Hyatt: So get rid of that old can of plums or whatever. So anyway, um, That was fantastic. So that is how I feel about it. So I’m super excited to share this with my friends, um, not so I can be right, but so they can be relieved. And it’s just, uh, and that’s the motivation. That’s why if someone’s not, if someone doesn’t resonate with what I start to say, I crank it back. Like, if, if it’s not interesting to them, if it’s not sounding like good news to them, You don’t need to hear it right now. You really don’t. I went 40+ years believing that Joseph was a polygamist and that he was a prophet and that God loved me. All three of those were in my head for a long, long, long time, and I was fine. But, you know, once I got to a point where God felt this was necessary for me to, to understand him better, then, you know, he opens all this up. And so that will happen to them at some point. And I’m, uh, there’s, it’s not a problem. It’s not, they don’t need to know it yesterday. So, um, I just want to say that the, the success I’m having in my ward, in my stake, in my circle with strangers, seriously, is, um, not because of what I’m doing, but I’m trying to create an atmosphere. That is inviting to the spirit for them so that they can feel comfortable listening and considering these things. And so that’s why if, if they’re already on guard or reticent, we don’t need to talk about it right now.
[21:15] Michelle: Can I pause on that for just a second? So, because how I’m trying to like put that in my own, you know, and the impression that I get is that, um, It’s almost like this, it’s like we are so confident in this um research and this evidence, we’re so confident that this is the truth and that we have all the receipts to back it up, that it’s and and then and then you are so well both of us I think are so Um, excited that this is good news, right? That it’s just like, oh my gosh, I have this good news to share. And then if someone’s like, No, I’m not interested, then it’s like, oh, OK, right? There’s no, there’s no need to know. You need to understand this. But it is confidence in knowing, I mean, I mean, I like what you say about letting God do the con. I think to me, it’s like, yes, well, it’s like the evidence does the convincing and God confirms it, but only the people who want to look at the evidence, right? And so I guess that’s what it is. It’s, it’s like, the evidence will show you, God will confirm it, but I’m not gonna have the argument with you about whether or not you should look at the evidence and ask God, right? Like, we’ll just leave that up to you.
[22:17] Karen Hyatt: And I. Absolutely. Just preserve the relationship. Like that’s, you, you’ve got, so that’s the number one thing is, is love has to be here. And love, here’s what’s interesting to me. I just kind of had an epiphany a few months ago that, um, God is love, but he also said that he is truth, right? And so that means that love is truth. There are facts, but they’re not necessarily truth if they’re not combined with love. And I just thought that’s kind of a brain buster, but I really, really felt that that was true. Like there’s this tendency to paint with a broad brush. And we don’t like that when people look at us and say, oh, you, you have questions about the church, you’re one of those people that just wants to wear a bikini and smoke and get a tattoo. You know, you don’t want to be painted with a broad brush like that. It’s very, very offensive. So when I hear people say, oh, my, my ward’s full of people, they’re just not interested. My ward’s full of closed-minded people. It’s terrible. In Sunday school, nobody cares about getting to the truth. They just, and it’s like, are you kidding me? Like, your whole ward is like that. I will bet you $100 that that’s not the case, you know? And if you can Share this in a compassionate way, in a non-threatening way, in an excited and gladful way, you will, you’ll get those people. There are some in your ward that are just quietly thinking about it, but they’re there. I promise. Like, there’s, there’s not entire ward. I guess. You know, no, even the city of Aminaha, do you remember that? had some people that believed, but they were chased out. So I just, I do not believe that there’s any ward without anyone who’s open-minded or, or going to see this as good news. Just they need to be approached well.
[24:11] Michelle: OK, so, so I, so I wanna go the, the thing I was gonna say is that I think that many of us are responding a little bit more aggressively or judgmentally because of how we’ve been treated, right? Like sometimes we are bla called conspiracy theorist. So the thing that we have to recognize that’s so challenging, like we can think of, um, who is it? Martin Luther King Jr, right? And how they had, like, it doesn’t matter if they beat you and Come at dogs with you and do a fire hose. The second you raise even a finger, you’re the bad guy, and they, and it will go badly for you. So they had to have complete non-aggression. And it was amazing to watch those people learn to do that in the face of brutal physical attacks. But that’s, I think the plea that you and I want to make to our community is like, yes, they’re coming after us with all kinds of accusations and And they’re lying about us. I mean, believe me, I, I am lied about constantly, right? But, uh, but, but if I do the tiny littlest aggressive thing, then all of a sudden, I’m the bad guy. Like we, like, the best way we can help this message is in that same way, complete non-aggressive, non-aggression. So a little bit from our community goes a long way. So we’re begging everyone to like, in our community to please just keep loving people and not, um, accuse them or blame them, right? And then going back to what you were saying about your ward, when, see, this is the problem. Um, I bet I am willing to guess that you have not yet. Gone up and borne your testimony about Joseph Smith or about, about polygamy, right? I’m guessing that you have not raised your hand in gospel doctrine or relief society and said, guess what? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah blah blah, and made your point. So when you’re talking about your word, it’s part part of it is the context because I haven’t done those things either. I try to be extremely inspired as much as possible when I make a comment. And I try to share things that will not feel, that will not get everybody’s, um, um, prices up, right? That won’t, because it feels, it sounds like we’re attacking something and it’s, and church is just not generally the place to have these conversations, in my opinion. And so, it has
[26:21] Karen Hyatt: been for me, but not, not in those settings, you know, I shared a church all the time, but it’s one on one.
[26:27] Michelle: It’s with my I mean, yeah, yeah. It’s not in front of a, it’s not in front of a crowd. It’s talking, it is the individual relationship that matters and talking to people one.
[26:37] Karen Hyatt: And, and not because, not because it’s scary to talk to a, not, not because you want to shrink or something. It’s not that, it’s that. Um, if someone’s wholly unprepared for the message, it’s just going to hit them like a ton of bricks and not, and not be a pleasant message. And so that’s why the one on one, if you sit there in Sunday school and raise your hand and say a thing that they’ve never heard this before, and it just clanks with everything that they, they think they know, that’s, that’s really painful and it does, it’s not conducive to the spirit. Whereas if you’re talking to someone who knows you and who you’re friends with and again, who you love genuinely, Then that, uh, it’s just, it’s a message. My friend called it, one of my friends, OK, sorry, digressing here. But at Christmas time, the Sunday before Christmas, um, on my friend’s ward was coming in as mine was exiting kind of thing. And, and I grabbed her hand cause I thought, oh, she would want it. She would love this message. So I grabbed her hand and finished with my person I was talking to, and then I turned to her and I said, I have something to tell you. I said, I’ve been working on this project and you’re gonna love it. Um, I go, do you know about the Joseph Smith papers at all? And she’s like, No. And I said, Well, it’s super interesting. I’m like, for starters, are you a big fan of polygamy by any chance? And she’s like, No. And I’m like, she goes, I just don’t really think about it. And when she said that, I was like, oh, maybe she wouldn’t be interested, but then she said, cause I just kind of Try not to think about it. And when she said, try not to think about it, that was my cue that yes, it does bother her in some small way. And I said, Oh, well, guess what? It turns out that Joseph Smith never taught it and never practiced it. And like you could see all these original documents about it. And it’s so cool. And she’s like, no way. And I said, Yeah. I said, I made a movie about it. It’s on YouTube. And she’s like, Well, send me the link. And then later, when I sent her the link, I said, Sorry, that was probably the wackiest Christmas greeting you’ve Had all month. And she wrote back and said, Are you kidding? This is glad tidings of great joy. And so, so that’s, so she did take it that way. You know what I mean? So it was just fun and it’s just pleasant and sharing it, yes, at church, but on an individual basis and a kind, you know, like, I love you so much. I need you to hear this and stuff. Anyway, it’s been thrilling. Yeah, it’s super fun.
[28:53] Michelle: What I love so much about that. Thank you for sharing that specific example, because that’s what you’re like. Like in the halls at church, or when you’re out walking with friends or when you meet someone and, you know, it’s, it’s just not in the official capacity where you’re talking to the entire group because you can’t modulate. You can’t have that conversation. You can’t, um, adjust to what they’re giving back to you, right? That’s a challenge of my podcast, actually, is I’m just putting a message out there and people can take it and hear whatever they’re gonna hear on it, and I can’t clarify for them, and I can’t, you know, so. So when you do have the option to share one on one, then share one on one, because it is a a a bigger advantage, right? And so I love, I love, I wanted Karen to share some of these things cause I love the fact that she’ll like grab someone’s hand walking past her, finish up our conversation and then say, I have the best news. Like that’s kind of how it seems to me that you share it. Like, in some ways, it’s almost, I, I’ve tried to think, could I do that? Could I just be like, guess what? I have great news. Polygamy was never a God out of the blue. And I don’t know if that’s my way or not, but it’s your way. And I think it’s amazing.
[29:59] Karen Hyatt: Well, I, yeah, I, I usually, I usually ask them if they’re familiar with the Joseph Smith Papers project because that right there establishes that I’m not getting this from some, you know, how they’re like, Oh, you listen to some website, you know, some wacky podcast. It’s like, oh, the church is, you know, the, the church aided website called the Joseph Smith Papers is where this comes from. So that’s always, I really I, I almost always start with that. But, um, and usually they haven’t, they’re maybe a little familiar with it, but I’m like, yeah, you can see his original journal and that they’re very excited about that as well, they should be, you know. So it’s super fun.
[30:34] Michelle: Yeah. So I mean, I’ve, I’ve thought for a long time that we need to make, and maybe someone could take this on and then like, I, I’ll help distribute them. I wish we had pass along cards or something like that. Oh, do you have cards?
[30:50] Karen Hyatt: Yeah, well, I just, I just had uh business cards printed out and they have my website, Josephtoldhetruth.org and on the back is the QR code for the video. And so they can, so, and, and, and it’s been super, super fun. But yeah, you can make something better like the church thing or a color.
[31:08] Michelle: I just want to pass along cards about like, about a message. Polygamy. So I think that that’s, I think that’s, um, we, we need to have something like that. So I think it’s fun. I’ll make some as well. But, um, anyway, so I love that. I love those, those ideas of the opening. And in fact, I just was having a conversation with a friend, someone I really, uh, there are people who, um, know me and love me, but are very nervous about me, right? I have a lot of people like that in my life. And, um, and it’s so interesting to, um, To, to talk to them. And, and it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, I have noticed how good it is to build on common ground, kind of. Like I was having a heart to heart with a friend the other day, and I, I, she was so sweet and reached out to me because she knew, um, I was having a hard time this last week, some of the things that had happened. And, um, anyway, but when as I was talking to her, I was able to say, like, like, I, in my situation, I just talked about something about Joseph Smith and how much I have come to love and respect him through my research and told a story. It was the story about William Smith beating Joseph Smith up after he’d already been beat by the mob and reopening those wounds. And, you know, like that impacted me so deeply. And it was, I was just sharing that kind of just in the course of conversation about something completely different. But it is helpful to let people know, I guess I’m just saying that because it, they kind of go, Oh, I don’t, I maybe I don’t need to be scared of you. Do, do you know what I mean? Or maybe I don’t need to be scared of your views and your perspectives. And so, in a way, it’s kind of like, we, we need to keep in mind that we’re not fighting against them, and we’re not fighting against their beliefs. They’re our friends and we’re all on the same team, and we can share. Something that can really strengthen their faith, and maybe even if they don’t need it, maybe their children will. Maybe at some 0.1 of their children will read the CES letter and be so troubled about Joseph Smith’s polygamy, and this can prepare them. So we can approach it in all of those different ways. But anyway, I love, I just love that idea of like, look, we’re on the same team, testifying of the truthfulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
[33:09] Karen Hyatt: Absolutely. That’s so cool. Yeah, it, it is, those, um, The the closer you are to someone, the more you genuinely love someone, I feel like the easier it is to share um the things with them because I, I don’t know. I, I just think your love, your genuine love for them comes through. And so if you don’t feel that, like, pray for that first, you know, it’s almost like, um, seek to obtain my word, and then your tongue shall be loosed. It’s like part of the word is, is love. Obviously, that’s the main thing. So it’s like, seek for that first, seek for forgiveness, meaning that you forgive, cause if you’ve got bitterness in you, you know, it’s very, very normal, very understandable to feel betrayed, right by By the church narrative, by how you’re treated and how you’re talked about by leaders and stuff like that. So you have every right to be bitter, every right to feel betrayed and angry, but that’s not Christ’s way, right? He’s like, those that persecute you, turn the other cheek, love your enemies. We don’t have people burning us at the stake. We don’t have people, most of us don’t have people beating us, literally. So the way that our enemies attack is through these words and through these insulting things and condescension and things like that. And so that’s do do those things that the people that were being burned and stoned did turn the other cheek, you know, it should be easier for us to turn the other cheek when we’re just being a bad mouthed, but it’s really hard because sometimes you don’t recognize, oh, that is my enemy. And I know how Jesus wants me to treat my enemies. So let me do that. So anyway, as, as, as you feel that true love and true forgiveness for your enemies, it, it, it’ll come through and it’ll just be so much easier to share this in a good way, in a happy way. Um, yeah,
[35:00] Michelle: we’ll have fewer enemies also, if we’re not pushing it on people who aren’t prepared and aren’t open and aren’t interested. But I, before you want your next point, I wanted to add one more thing that we, that I should have said at the beginning. And so I’m to it now, hoping people are still tuned in. But the reason this is so important, the reason I wanted to have Karen on is because I do feel like this really is in so many ways, the missionary opportunity of our generation, of our lives, of our time, right? Like, and, and, and I think it’s great that we have people doing good work. I think my podcast is important. I think Karen’s movie is important. I think the other podcasts out there Important. The books that are going to be coming out, I think all of this is really important. But really, it is the one on one interactions with people in each of our spheres of influence that will, that will make this be like, like, take what, you know, as, uh, the stone rolling down at the mountain, but I’m, I’m butchering it. But, you know, this is, that’s how this will really take off is with each of us seeking inspiration from the Lord of how We can share it. And I don’t, if anyone else wants to start more podcasts, that’s great. But I don’t really think that’s what’s lacking or that’s where the bang for the buck is. And, and I don’t know that it’s in going in, like we said, and making your big, like, like bearing your testimony or making a comment. You know, it really is the one on one interactions. And or if someone else feels inspired a different way, but praying and going, Lord, can you give me opportunities to Share. You know, if we have people in our mind that we want to share this with, I think it is just such great news to be able to share it. And I think that, like, an army of us out there sharing this is what will change things more than anything else, hands down. And so I think for me, Karen is the model of that. Like she is the example of how to put that into action, at least from my perspective of just this one on one interactions I wanted her to come and share.
[36:57] Karen Hyatt: What me. An example, one way to share it, 111 example, yes, you’re, you’re very sweet, but, but so, so let me, let me go ahead and share a few of the, of the success stories just to illustrate, um, there was So this is what we’ll do. We’ll, um, invite several couples to our house to watch the movie with us. You know, I’ll, I’ll say it like I said to the other lady, you know, did, did you know this? Like, have you seen this? And it turns out, like, he never taught it, he never practiced it. I can’t believe it. And there’s all this documentation. So I made a movie, like compiling all together. And if they’re like, Wow, That’s cool. I go, Do you want to come over and watch it? You know, name a day. And so that’s, that’s been wonderful. So there was this one time we had, um, two couples scheduled to come over, and one of the men had something to do with the last minute. So it was one couple and then this one, my friend, she came over. She still came. So they watched it. And when it was done, she was just like, OK, my husband has to see this, you know. So she goes home and she’s like, you have to see this, it’s gonna blow your mind. And he was just like, oh, they’re there. Like, I know women don’t like polygamy and it’s, I mean, you know, we would have heard about it if it wasn’t a thing, you know, that kind of thing, of course. And because it’s in your scriptures supposedly, so I don’t blame anybody for thinking that. But anyway, she, she was like, no, but we gotta watch it. So sure enough, they set up a time to come back and so they both watched it. And, and when he got to my house, and then he, that’s when he found out it was like 2 hours, and he’s like, oh, I didn’t know it was like a full length movie. He goes, Well, I went to bed at like 2 last night, so I apologize if I fall asleep during it, you know, don’t take offense. I was like, that’s cool. So anyway, we started and so at the end, he was like, I didn’t fall asleep. He’s like, that was amazing. And he was completely on board, and they have been sharing it like crazy. I went to their house on Christmas Eve to drop off a treat. And he goes, Come in, come in for a second. We’re just talking about you. I was like, You are? He goes, Yeah, come over here and meet my mother-in-law. And so I met her, nice lady, and he goes, look at the TV. They were 2/3 of the way through the movie. I was like, you’re spending Christmas Eve, but you know what? She loved it. And so I got, uh, a message a couple days later telling me what the mother-in-law had said about the movie, that she liked it and she was like excited about it. So it, that was just wonderful. So it’s again, one of those things where I got to see kind of the effects, you know. So I was happy to be able to see some of the results of that and some of the ripples that spread. Um, There’s a lady at church and she is the sweetest person. She’s uh an absolute like. Uh, example of Christ-like behavior. She’s just a, a lovely person, has a wonderful reputation for just being meek and mild and sweet. So, um, I shared this with a group of us that were at church and You know, I could see she was, like, it made her a little nervous. So I didn’t really say much. But every time I would, you know, when my movie was done, I told them. When my book was done, I told them. So I kept them, um, I kept it in their minds, but didn’t hammer it on it or anything like that. So anyway, she, but she actually her kind of, um, health is sort of tied to her mental state and so she didn’t want anything that would be upsetting because her, her health really does, um, tank when, when she’s upset. So I was like, don’t watch it. Please don’t watch it, you know, no big deal. Like, take your time or or watch it never whatever. And so then at one point, she, one other day, she says, My sister sent me this video and it was a different video that was on YouTube and, and it was like this, this very important point, proving that Joseph was not a polygamist, you know? And I looked at it and I was like, oh, I know that video, and I explained to her what the video was about cause I was familiar with it. And I said, But if your sister, I guess it was her sister-in-law, but she, I said if she thought that was compelling, she’d love my movie. And so this lady said, Well, go ahead and send me the link. And then I said, OK, but you don’t have to watch it. Just go ahead. And so then I get a text back from her the next day, and she says, Thank you for that. And she says, I read through the PDF because on my website, you can also see the PDF if you prefer to read the presentation, which she had. And she said, I, I understand now where you’re coming from. And she said, I still support our church leaders, and I believe that they’re trying to do what’s right. But she said, now I understand you. And, and she says, I applaud that you have this calling to spread this truth. And that was amazing. I thought that was wonderful. And she apologized for taking so long to understand me. And I was like, you don’t have to apologize, but what a sweet thing to say. And then two days later, she sent me the response that she had gotten from her sister-in-law. Which was the sweetest thing ever. The sister-in-law thanked her for the movie, said they had watched it with their four oldest children. And that she had also shared it with a friend whose son had had concerns and like thought it was disgusting that Joseph took these wives behind Emma’s back. So the sister-in-law was like, I shared it with that lady, my friend, so she could talk better to her son. And it was like, Whoa, all these ripples that I, from someone that I thought I would never be able to share it with. And I, I didn’t even invite her to watch it. I invited her not to watch it. You know what I mean? So, all in the Lord’s timing and all in the Lord’s. So that’s been wonderful.
[42:35] Michelle: Um I wanna, I wanna, cause I don’t want to make it just about your documentary. I think your documentary is great, but there are a lot of people that can share in a lot of different ways, and there’s so much content. And so, but, but because I think it also can be like, Hey, have you seen this scripture? Let’s look at, like, did you know the scriptures say this, right? That’s a really powerful, it doesn’t have to be, come watch a movie. It could just be talking about it. And the more each of us become conversant with it, I, in fact, I’ve put together. And, you know, I’ll post it on my website. I’ve put together just a list of scriptures that are really good scriptures to bring together to talk about it. Like, look, these are the scriptures that show that Lehi was commanded to leave Jerusalem because of polygamy and that they were commanded never to live it. And this is how you can understand what Jacob 2:30 says. And look at everything else the Book of Mormons says about polygamy, right? Those, I think, are really good conversations to have. I think it is about Just sharing this idea, like Karen has her movies, so that’s what she shares, and it’s fabulous. But we can all share in our own unique way. And the reason, I think it is so important, there are many reasons. But one thing that I also will, like I have told my Um, church leaders this. If they’ll say like, well, I, this isn’t a problem for me. I, I mean, one of my church leaders was really sweet, but he was like, it’s not a problem for me. I know my wife doesn’t like it, but I’m not worried. And I was like, did you hear yourself? You know, like, like. Your wife’s feelings really matter too, you know, but, but one thing that is also helpful is like, this, the, the, uh, let me back up. The reason this is so important is because we want people to get this message first before they get the other message and then take it wherever it might lead. When people, um, like so many people that are in the church just don’t think about polygamy, and a lot of the people who do think about polygamy are bothered by it and do dare dive in, end up going. Going down the road of leaving the church, leaving the gospel, leaving the restoration, right? I mean, I mean, people’s path is their own, wherever they go. But it makes me sad when people make huge, huge decisions about their faith, not just their activity in the church, but their entire faith structure of is God, does God exist even to that point, based on incorrect information, based on bad information. And just this week and last week, I am, that we’re recording this, like twice, um, this topic has been handled on Mormon stories. They used one of my videos last week and then this week they’re doing a live because they used one of my videos and now Mormon Stories is treating me like she who shall not be named. We can’t say her name, you know. And the things, uh, I’m sorry. Well, it was While I was listening to them, I just, multiple times, like found myself on my knees just crying, like literally crying at how bad their information is, how certain they are, and how sort of, I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna cast aspersions, but just how hateful they are toward the entire restoration, right? Just this, this real hatred and me. Signing based on very, very bad information that would be so easy to sit there and go, look, this is why your source is wrong. Look, I mean, I mean, some of the things we need to get in and hammer and hash out. Some of the sources are complicated and could potentially go up either way. But things, uh, so many of the accusations they make, no, there, that is just bad information, right? And so even people who are like, I’m not bothered by about polygamy or just be righteous. I’m like, but you have you one day will have neighbors, children, grandchildren, in-laws, spouses, like, who will be bothered by this. And if you don’t dive in and learn about it, you will not be prepared to help them find the good information, right? And so, like, that’s what I said to one of my leaders. He was like, aren’t you just making this problem bigger? Like, why don’t you just leave it alone? It doesn’t bother me. And I was like, there are people who are Bothered by it. And if they don’t have the right, the right information, the correct answers, then, then the only people talking about it are the people who hate the church. Is that what you want? And not just hate the church. Hate the restoration, right? Hate, like, hate Joseph Smith. Hate Emma Smith. Hate, uh, like they have this weird complex. We pity Emma, but we also believe all of the horrible lies told about her. And so it’s so strange to watch them cherry pick and get like, Like, oh, Brigham Young was totally telling the truth if he said anything about bad about Emma Smith. Well, that’s random, right? I mean, anyway, so, so that’s why, that is why this matters so much. We have to spread the message and do it effectively and in In love, so that that side doesn’t win any more advocates, right? Any more allies because like they’re it’s so funny. I’m sorry, I’m just gonna go off a little bit. I already did a bit, but it’s so funny to me to watch people that have left the church and that like, that just, just like scream against the church for not being transparent, for not getting all of the information, that not that for not telling the truth. And then they treat this topic, the way they treat it. I have offered to go on every single One of these podcasts. I’ll say it now. I will come on any one of your shows, and you can ask me any question that you want, any hard question. But you are doing exactly what you are decrying on this topic. You are refusing to give the information. You are giving false information, you are not using good sources. And, and it’s, it’s really, really too bad because fine, don’t, I mean, I’m not saying anyone has to go back to the church. I’m not saying any, you know, but you should at least have good information and you should at least spread. Good information and have the debate based on that. Good sources, not these, like, like, I’m sorry, the sources that the people that hate the church are using are worse than the sources that, like, it’s kind of like watching, OK, Keith Erickson debate someone else on the other side. And I’m like, yeah, you’re pretty much the same. Sorry, you’re pretty much the same. OK. Sorry. Now go ahead. That was my little diatribe.
[48:40] Karen Hyatt: No, and it’s interesting what you said about, you know, hoping that they encounter the good information first. I mean, it’s never too late. To change your mind, of course. But, but like Mro and I during the battles, you know, they lost the city, and when they, he found that out, he was so sad and it says he was so sad because he knew that it was easier to maintain the city than to retake it. And it’s the same thing. It’s like, it’s, if you can hang on to the good and then see that Joseph Smith really did tell the truth and Emma really was telling the truth and Hiram and all of them, and it’s, it bolsters your faith in the true things and it’s much easier to do that than to have somebody leave. And then you say, Well, why did you leave? Was it Joseph Smith? Cause maybe you need to come back to the Book of Mormon because here, you know, he, he was actually a good man. And that’s, it’s really hard. You’re absolutely right. It’s, it’s so hard to do that. So,
[49:29] Michelle: but I just want to make one more point in case any like of the people that have left the church and, and have no use for the church tune in. I also want to clarify that talking about the sourcing of this one question of Joseph Smith’s polygamy doesn’t mean that you, like, like some people will say to me, well, I, well, I still have problems with the book of Abraham. I’m like, Fine. How comes with the Book of Abraham? But, but, but I guess it’s, this is what I want to say. If you, if you think someone robbed a bank, that doesn’t mean they committed murder. And you don’t say it’s all the same, right? Like, like, I’m not, I’m not sitting here saying, you have to love Joseph Smith. I’m sitting here saying, you need to use good sources and spread truthful information. That’s all,
[50:08] Karen Hyatt: right? Whatever decision you make, we respect whatever decision you make, obviously, but please make it with the right information. Yeah, just. Don’t, don’t, don’t leave based on false information. You can leave based on true information. I’m not gonna argue with you for that, you know? But, um, yeah, and, and when you said, it’s interesting cause when you said that your church leader was like, Well, I don’t really care about my, my wife does, but I don’t, you know. And so for something like that, it’s even a tiny little gesture is helpful when, you know, your initial reaction is, are you serious right now? You don’t care about your wife’s feelings, you know? And, um, It’s more helpful to say something like, Sure, sure, I understand that you wouldn’t care because you’re like, we don’t do it anymore. And it wasn’t that in the past, and what the heck does it matter? And why worry about it? And when you kind of reflect their, their feelings back at them, at least they feel understood that you get where they’re coming from, that, you know, and I do. I completely get that. Yeah. Why are you bringing this up out of the blue? What does it have to do with anything, you know? And then once they feel like you at least understand. Their position of why would I care, and you sympathize with that, then you can go on to say, but it is interesting that some women do, you can imagine how some women might still have that in their head that someday they’re going to have to share their husband. It’s super disturbing, and that, you know, and then they kind of are in more of a position to sympathize with you back. So anyway, that’s the kind of thing.
[51:36] Michelle: I’m trying to remember because I think what I said, I think what I said is like, I’m so glad that, you know, I, I totally understand that not everybody has a problem with this, but many, many people do. And, you know, and that many people do. And, and that’s one thing I say is, and do we really want the only people talking about it to be people who hate the church? Is that really what we want? You know? And so, and yeah, and I have made the same point as well as that, like, like, you know, my, my past state president. Brought up the CES letter a couple of times and, and was, you know, and, and what was lamenting it. And I was, I was like, do you know why it’s so effective? It’s because we tell the exact same story, right? Like, just like you were saying. So.
[52:16] Karen Hyatt: So yeah,
[52:17] Michelle: this is
[52:17] Karen Hyatt: this
[52:17] Michelle: is a different story. And I know that we, and I also will tell them, I understand that it’s uncomfortable. I understand that I’m in an uncomfortable space. I understand that. However, like, this is an uncomfortable topic. Like, that’s one thing I always I want to scream about whatever people claim falsely that I’m leading people out of the church. Because I always say, if anyone leaves the church because of me, please have them reach out to me because that is not my goal, right? But, but I’m like, it is not my message that is leading people out of the church. It is polygamy that leads people out of the church. Polygamy is the problem, right? Like that’s, that’s the problem the church has. I think that we are the best defense against that problem. So, OK, I’ll let you continue.
[53:00] Karen Hyatt: Well, yeah, I, um, there’s just so many things to say. It’s just, um, it’s just an interesting, well, again, The attitude with which you share it is super important, right? It, like, no one wants to, OK, so there’s a psychological phenomenon called like mirroring. There’s other words for it, but, um, people kind of mirror you when you’re talking to them. I mean, that’s just natural and it’s funny because like everyone knows that I edit your episodes and You know, you’re so pleasant and you’re so smiley, and when you do your outro and you’re like, blah blah blah, and you’re smiling, and I’ll finish the little outro, and then I’ll look and I’m like, smiling. I’m, you’re not even here, but I’m just watching you pleasantly do this, and I realize I’m smiling like a goofball in my kitchen alone, you know, it’s like, OK, so that is a real principle that you just reflect what you’re seeing in someone. So if, if someone is approached like this, like, You know, it turns out that Brigham Young really started polygamy. It wasn’t Joseph at all. I mean, look at my face right now. Is that so do you like that face? I don’t like that face at all, right? It’s this, it’s like people. Uh, recoil from that. And, and rightly so. You know what I mean, if this is true and if it’s good, let’s talk about it openly. Let’s not talk about it like it’s a controversial, you know, this awful thing that needs to be on the DL or we need to lower our voice about it or something like that. No, no, no, no, no. It’s, guess what? And, and I, I know I can’t tell everyone how to be. Everybody’s different. Maybe don’t have, you know, a, a personality like that or whatever. That’s fine, but just, you don’t need to be somber about it and act like it’s this awful and, and I’m a little bit rambling here, but here’s what’s interesting to me. Yes, polygamy. The awful things that were done to the women in Utah. The, the horrible, uh, conditions that they lived in, the ways they were duped, the misery that they lived under by their own records, you know, and by Brigham’s admissions, how miserable his wives were and other people’s wives were. It’s so sad. And you do tend to be Kind of sobered up by that and like this is important to eradicate this from our doctrine. It’s not true, it’s an abomination, right? But When the angels came to declare the birth of Christ. They knew that he would be. Beaten and tortured and crucified. But when they came to talk about it, they, they declared glad tidings of great joy, and it, it was good news. Yes, there’s horrible things that go along with it that deserve a somber treatment, but the message of what they were sharing was glad. It was happy. It was glad tidings. And so that’s how I feel about this. That’s why I can share it in a happy way. And not have to delve right into Brigham was, uh, you should wait till you see what he was like, you know, nothing like that. So that’s less off-putting, you know, when you can just share the good part of it and trust me, the spirit will work on them for the rest, we invited. Um, it’s, let’s see, 3 couples over. Well, let me back up a little. So, um, I, I, I’ve never put this on my Facebook page because on my personal Facebook page, because again, it’s without context for most people and most meaning 99%, you know, they’d be like, why is she talking about this and what the heck and Is that bothering her, or, you know, it’s just a weird thing and anything weird or uncomfortable, uh, makes it harder to feel the spirit. So I’ve never just thrown it out on my Facebook page. And, um, if you have, that’s fine. Just answer the people kindly when they come at you with weird questions, cause it’s understandable that they would. So, a few weeks ago though, uh, um, people in Utah may have seen that on, in the Tribune. In the Salt Lake Tribune, there was an article. Jana Reess does the religion article for the Tribune, and she turned her column over to Carole Lynn Pearson, the author of The Ghosts of Eternal Polygamy, and, you know, who hates polygamy, and she turned her column over to Carol, who just railed on polygamy and she was livid that the church had included in their new version of the doctrine and Covenant stories for children that most of us are, are also familiar with. And it’s not in the lesson, it’s not in the lesson per se for this year, but it’s in the supplemental stories for children.
[57:42] Michelle: It’s the scripture stories for children. It’s in the script,
[57:44] Karen Hyatt: so if, if a teacher doesn’t just stick with the manual, they might go grab that. So if you
[57:49] Michelle: just stories for children, for your children to read, it’s there,
[57:53] Karen Hyatt: exactly. So she was just livid that hello, this is seven year olds are reading these stories, you know, older children are reading the real scriptures. These are for young children, and what are you thinking? And she was so mad and saying how horrible polygamy was and it was awful and all. These things and, um, and talking about, again, how it’s kind of grooming them to accept it later and stuff. And then she said, and Joseph was wrong to practice it, you know. So she was like, 90% on, but there was this like veered off into, that’s not true. So, I realized, like, it just hit me, there is a reason to put it. So I put that on my Facebook page and I said, Hey, have you guys seen this article? Uh, because it was current, you know, it was right then and and my friends may have seen it. So now it was relevant. So I put it on there and I said, have you seen this? And I said, the, the author makes a lot of good points, but she um unjustly accuses Joseph, um, with some false allegations. So if you would like to kind of bridge your Feelings for Joseph as a prophet with, you know, your, um, feelings about polygamy, come to my house Friday, we’re gonna show, uh, a documentary, uh, that will help, help reconcile those, you know. And so I had, um, like 5 couples responded, 2 had to drop out. So it ended up with 3 couples. And two of them were already familiar. It turned out with it. So, but they wanted to come, you know, among like-minded people and talk about it cause that’s helpful. But the one couple, not only had they not heard about it, but she hadn’t even, like, read my, read the article that I linked to, so she did not know why she was at my house. She just like, oh, Karen’s gonna show. So she came over, you know, she and her husband came over and, and when I, as we talked before the movie started, I realized, oh, this is brand new. She has no idea, so I was like, well, it’s about Joseph cause it looks like he didn’t practice polygamy, you know, from the record. She’s like, oh, that’s how brand new it was. So I was like, well, we’ll see how this goes, you know, watching it completely cold. So they watched, we watched it, and about halfway through, I started hearing like, like the gasps at the appropriate places, you know, like what they changed his journal and, you know, I, I heard these things. I was like, oh good. So when it ended, she just said, my mind is blown and and she said um I can’t believe this. She goes, I thought that wasn’t supposed to happen. I thought the prophets couldn’t lead us astray, but Brigham was a prophet, and, and he did this, you know. Now I could have jumped in right in there and said, actually, he was more like a King Noah, you know, or whatever, but I, I didn’t. I, I knew I didn’t need to because she had just been fire hosed with two hours of information. I don’t need to put any more on her. And so she just, they talked it out, you know, and they had, they talked for a couple hours after the movie ended, so she finally left my house at like midnight, which was so, it was such good conversations and by By 10 o’clock the next morning, she and a friend were going over the movie together. So she had already started sharing it. Yeah. And then a couple of days after that, she texted me some of her thoughts about Brigham. And yes, now we kind of see Brigham the same way now because that was all the spirit helping her work that out in her own mind. I didn’t need to do anything, you know? So it was just so wonderful to see that, that, anyway, it’s just all about how they’re approached. It’s just so fun.
[1:01:26] Michelle: Yeah, it is. I, I love, and so I, I wanted to add a couple of more things cause I love that you brought up mirroring and, and the, the spirit with which we share it, right? And it’s similar to, so I’m gonna go to a funny place cause I was just having a conversation on this. But, OK, when you are teaching your kids about sex, right? If you go like, if you’re super uncomfortable and you’re like, OK, um, Like we have to talk about and you use these little funny words and, you know, then your kids are like, oh, this is a super uncomfortable thing, and they start feeling weird, right? Whereas if you’re like, yeah, yeah, whereas if you’re if you’re like um OK. Like this is so amazing. Listen what power God gave us. And a mom and a dad get to create children. And this is how, and, you know, and when my kids are a little older and I’ll, I mean, just, just the, the, the tone with which you address something affects how they feel about it. So if when we’re sharing this, we’re super scared, right? Like we’re, we’re, we’re like, I’m OK. I, I, I, my suggestion. is, don’t do it in formal ways if you don’t have to. Like, don’t like, like, I one time had wanted to share a message. I was going to call my family together and try to share, and I was so scared. Did not go well, did not go well, right? And I think it’s so much better to, like you’re saying, like, not make it a big meeting, not make it a big thing and not feel like, like if you’re super afraid, maybe wait until you can do it in a way that’s just like, oh my God. Gosh, look what I learned, right? And so I do think that that is such an important part that, that part of, part of do not share, seek to share the word until you have the word. Part of it is, when, when you’re, if you’re feeling fearful, then just wait, I would say, and ask the Lord to give you a different spirit about how to share it, because that will affect everything, right? Like if you’re nervous, so nervous to talk to them, then, I mean, of course, everyone do, we’re all trying our best. But, but in general, if you’re super nervous, it won’t go over as well because they’ll be like, oh, this is something to be super, super nervous about.
[1:03:23] Karen Hyatt: Exactly. Oh, I love that. And the, the, uh, talk about the birds and the bees. What a great example. I mean, that is really spot on. Like it’s the same kind of a sensitive subject or whatever and it’s like, but it’s, but if you present it as, oh, you just explained it so well. I love that. That’s really, really good. That’s really wonderful.
[1:03:42] Michelle: Yay, thank you. And, and then the other thought I had is actually the scripture stories. I know I did a couple of videos on it because it was devastating. But maybe it also, the way that like, well, well, I think it’s great if people share this on Facebook, because for a lot of people, that’s their voice. That’s the way they can do it. Or they on Instagram, or, you know, whatever means people have with their, like, that’s not your way that some people’s way, you know, but for a lot of us also. The scripture stories, being able to just say, hey, have you seen this? Like, you know, you know, just kind of letting parents know that they might want a heads up about what’s in the scripture stories this year is a great introduction as well. Or, or even just being, you know, it just gives us something that is relevant and in context that even just saying, I’m so concerned about this, how are you guys gonna handle this with your kids? Right? And then, and then you can say, well, actually, guess what? I’ve been learning and turn to some scriptures. Tell some little facts. Like, did you know that the, the section 132 wasn’t added until 1876? Oh, and did you know? Let me pull up the O Cos 101 that was there before. Like, right, those are great little introductions to start dripping a little thing, a few little things here and there. That is that these are, these are tools. Maybe we don’t even need passalog cards because we now we have the scripture stories for children. That teach children that God may command polygamy. Like, right? That’s a great way to introduce this topic that could not be more relevant. Or, since we’re studying it this year and all of our manuals, are teaching that God sometimes commands polygamy, which, uh, makes me, yeah, I mean, it’s just insane. But that’s a really good thing. Like, how do you guys feel about this? How are you gonna handle this lesson? Well, listen to what I’ve been learning. I’m so excited about this. So, You know, I’m trying to decide if there’s a way I can share it, like, like these are really, really good tools. It’s almost like the Lord has just dropped all of the tools into our hands this year to be able to talk about it in relevant ways because when I started my podcast, I did feel like. I’m talking about polygamy. I don’t know why that’s weird. It’s out of the blue, but it’s not out of the blue at all
[1:05:40] Karen Hyatt: anymore. No, not at all. And you and Rob fatheringham, I mean, to, you know, I’m not gonna say that you’re the main ones, but it seems in my experience, you guys were the main ones. I mean, Rob. Rob did these extremely potent, potent videos just packed with all the receipts. And then you’re doing your constant every week, so anyone can always tune in. And it’s like, together it’s like, I’m, I, I imagine you’re why that’s in the scripture stories for children now, you know, so, um, but anyway, but it’s just so interesting. I, I, I think kind of the bottom line for me is I’m taking my cues from Ammon. You know, how, um, It’s such an interesting story and it’s such a rich story. Like, we really have a lot of information about Ammon and his brethren, the sons of Mosiah, how they were able to share the gospel with the Lamanites. And these are straight up their enemies. I mean, this is what I mean, like, I don’t like, um, when we paint with a broad brush and say, oh my word, they’re all closed-minded. Like No, no, no. If anyone had an excuse to say such a thing, it would be Ammon and the sons of Moziah. Like, he and his brothers had every reason to be like, yeah, the lameites are implacable. They are not, I’m not gonna make any headway. And in fact, we’re told that when they started their mission, when they were going to go on this mission, The Nephites, their, their own friends were like, Are you kidding me? Do not waste your time with them. What a waste of time. They’re not, you’re never gonna get through to them. I’m sure it was very disheartening to have people say that. And here they are, like, anxious to share it. It’s like, oh, don’t even bother. It’s, it’s, that’s so disheartening. So they went out and, and then they took different approaches, though, and we can learn so much from it. Um, Aaron, actually, it says he contended with many about the word. And it uses the word contended. And what happened? He ended up in prison. You know, that doesn’t do you any good. And so it’s like, yes, they’re standing up for what you believe, but there’s also meeting people where they are and sharing compassionately. So here’s Ammon, he takes a completely different approach. I will be your servant, I’ll serve you. And he talked about his, uh, fellow servants as his brothers. He loved them. Like, it is clear that he loved them genuinely. And so, he, you know, and when there was a problem, he was excited for that because he’s like, oh, I’ll be able to show them how God works, you know? And, and he was able to show God’s power. And even then, he still didn’t be like, Well, now that I’ve shown you God’s power, let me tell you all about the gospel. He still didn’t do that. He just bided his time and finally Limona calls him in and asks him questions. You know, and it was just like, what a great example this is. And then he found common ground with Lamona and You know, Lemon, I had some incorrect ideas, but he didn’t have to correct them. He just built on the right things and it’s such a beautiful story, and I love it so much. You know, then later, when he’s talking about the great successes that he’s had and stuff like that, you know, and Aaron’s like, Well, aren’t you, you know, you shouldn’t boast like that. He’s like, I am not boasting in me, has nothing to do with me. It’s God that’s done this, and he’s so powerful. And of course I’m gonna boast in him. He’s magnificent and can do this. And it’s in that little kind of talk that he says those who have faith in Christ and they are willing to, you know, put Him first, it’ll be given unto them to bring thousands to the knowledge of the truth. Like, that is what is happening right now. Thousands are being brought to repentance, I think it says. And then that’s what it is. We’re repenting of this awful idea and it’s so exciting.
[1:09:21] Michelle: I wanna, I wanna read the exact scripture because this is actually one that has been Important in my life. The Lord has brought this scripture into my life many, many times and made it very personal to me. And, um, in, in crazy ways, like you bringing it up right now, but I’ve had different times when I’ve had more than one time when someone was like, I was reading my scriptures, and I read this verse, and I just felt like I was supposed to call you and tell you this verse. Like that kind of stuff has happened repeatedly with this verse. And I think it’s important because all of us Seeking. I hope that all of us that are excited about this work are seeking to do this work, right? And so, um, so it says, so, so we need to listen to the instructions, I guess, given. They’re helpful to us. Yeah, he that repenteth and exercises faith, so we repent, like you said, we start by repenting because we get this message, and everyone that learns this kind of repents for believing that’s who God was, right? He that repenteth and exercises faith and bringeth forth good works, and then this was the one that was really important, and prayeth continually without ceasing. That is something that, and, and to me, that means we stay plugged in as much as we possibly can. It’s so easy to be distracted in our temporal, you know, the deception that is the temporal world, and we forget to stay just in communing, communing with the Lord, and, uh, keep that part of our mind open as much as possible. Um, so if we pray continually without ceasing ceasing, unto such is given to know the mysteries of God. And so first of all, going on this process is the way to open up the channels of revelation to learn more. And that’s what we are waiting on that the Book of Mormon tells us we can’t get more because we won’t believe what’s taught in the Book of Mormon, right? So first of all, if you want more revelation, this is, this would be a useful scripture to share with people, right, that this has been my experience. So it is given unto them to know the mysteries of God. Yeah unto such it shall be given to reveal things that have never been revealed. Yeah, and it shall be given unto such to bring thousands of souls to repentance, even as has been given to us to bring these, our brethren, to repentance. That scripture the Lord has given me so many times. I, I think in preparation for the work I’m doing has been Part of that, I feel like, and I feel like that is personal to each of us. As I know that that has been my path, as I have sought to implement those things that told me, I have seen those promises that it makes. So that’s one that I think all of us, I, I had that memorized forever. Imma 26, 22. I’m so glad you brought that verse up again, because I’m again taking it personally. I’m like, that’s my scripture. I love it. And I think it is so relevant to this work that we are doing.
[1:12:06] Karen Hyatt: It’s so relevant and it’s so amazing. And I, you know, it really, that one sank into my heart deeply, deeply some months ago, and it was just amazing and I realized I was like My video has gotten 20,000 views, you know what I mean? And I was like, hey, it’s fulfilled, you know, and who knows? Obviously I have no idea what people do after they watch it, but it’s so exciting. And I’m like, wow, that, that scripture is fulfilled, you know, and it’s fulfilled in a shell and it’s filled in all these people and, and the people that share our work, the people that share all these things or share the scriptures and things like that, these, these view counts didn’t come about because we made our movie. It’s Because they’re being shared by people. Everyone that’s participating in this and sharing all these things, they’re participating in that fulfillment of thousands being brought to repentance. So it’s, it’s just so exciting. I love it so much. Um, and again, just like I, and I’m not boasting in, in our, you know, our absolutely not the point. And it’s actually that’s kind of another trap that we can fall into is to think it’s all on us. It’s all on us to share this. Like, I’ve got to share it just right or, you know, or it won’t work. And I’m like, you can really have a burden lifted off of your shoulders if you will remember that it’s God. He can share in any way. He is a master choreographer. He knows people’s hearts and where they’re at and how much they can handle knowing at this time and how much they’ll accept. And so just relax, just enjoy it and love, love the people. And if you have animosity toward them, work on that. If you have animosity toward your enemies, work on that and be filled with love, and he will, he will pave the way for you to be an instrument in his hands because it’s what he wants. He wants his work to move forward, so he will bless your efforts. But just remember that it’s not you. And, um, I think of the other Ammon in scriptures. So it’s when the people of Limhi, right, are in bondage to the Lamanites, and they’ve gone. and they’ve tried to leave and they’ve tried to escape and they went out and they found the, you know, the desolation of N, the, the place where all the destruction had been, and they, you know, found the 24 plates of ether and then all these bones, like this horrible catastrophe, and they thought it was Zarahemla. So they thought Zarahemla was destroyed. They didn’t even think there was a Zarahemla. So it’s like, where do we escape to? So they’re pretty dismayed. And then here comes one Amon, we we always call them one Ammon because it says they brought with them. Ammon to distinguish between the other Ammon. So anyway, here comes one Ammon and his brothers, and he finds them, and they’re from Zara Hemla. You know, and so it’s like, oh, Zara Hemlet is still there. And King Lemhi tells his people, they’ve come, they’ve come to release us from bondage, you know, to help us escape captivity. And I’m sure, I just picture one M and going, uh, I am. Oh yeah, sure. That’s what I’m doing. You know, and, and it’s funny because as you read the story, he didn’t. He didn’t. They didn’t do that. They came and said, Sarah Hemle is still there, and it’s that direction. And it was the people of Limhi that figured out a way to escape with God’s help. It’s Gideon, one of King Lemhi’s, you know, helpers, that was like, Here’s a plan. And I’ve watched the Lamanites and they fall asleep, they get drunk and fall asleep, so we can escape that way. Ammon didn’t do that. He just testified Zerham was there, and I know the way to get there. And they, they got themselves out with God’s help. So it’s like, that’s all you do. Yeah, that’s all you have to do is be ready to point.
[1:16:03] Michelle: Hi, I always have to say Limhi, who, by the way, had a society filled with widows who, by the way, did not implement polygamy to care for the widows, just cared for the widows without turning them into prostitutes, right? And they weren’t living polygamy, and therefore, they were prepared to have God spare them, preserve them, show them the way out. Whereas if they had Implemented polygamy, even to care for the widows, which is our best case scenario, which is the truth, right? God could not have preserved and protected them and made the way possible for them. So I had to add that little of course but
[1:16:37] Karen Hyatt: yeah, I do love that. That’s another, so there was another couple that came here and watched it. We, we show it all the time. But anyway, another couple, uh, came and watched it, and they’re, you know, they’re, they didn’t have any questions about it other than she heard me talking about this and was interested. And I was like, come over and watch it, you know, and so she and her husband came over and watched it. And again, they were, they were very quiet during it. I had no idea, zero idea how they’re feeling about it. They didn’t show any emotion while they’re watching it. And then when it was over, they were just really, really thankful. They were just super and they, they’re like thinking about it and and thought, you know, this, they go. We understand that we have to, like, have this in our own hands, you know, and not depend on, I mean, they made all these connections that it, it was, they had to work out their salvation with God on their own. And she is so sweet. So some time had gone by, and once I show it to people, I mean, it’s in their court. I really don’t bring it up if I don’t need them. Yeah. So, um, so I didn’t know, and, you know, sometimes people are super excited, but of course, sometimes, you know, when you’re, when you start thinking about, yeah, but what does this mean for the church today? And all those questions that to me are totally irrelevant because truth is truth, so I don’t care what it, like, that’s a separate issue, you know. But you never know. You never know what people are thinking and if they’re uncomfortable, but anyway, so I was just wondering about her and after a few weeks, and then she came up to me at church and she was like, Well, first of all, she said she had had a dream that she was sharing the information that she was actually my movie that she was sharing it with people, and I was like, that’s a cool dream. And then she said, and I was reading in the scriptures and it’s just over and over, it’s like, Here, and she brought that up. She said, King King Limhi told them to take care of the widows, and he didn’t say to marry them, you know, so again, she was just making all the connections herself. So heavenly Father just has them and it’s just fine. So it’s just, again, I didn’t necessarily need to see those results, and I just would wonder, you know, and sometimes you just have to wonder, but sometimes Heavenly Father’s so nice that he shows you the effects of the seeds. So anyway,
[1:18:55] Michelle: I that’s so true cause I act like, like, I love it when people send me, um, emails or messages or, you know, I do, I do love that because I, um, It just, if anyone’s wondering, yes, I do love that. I don’t always respond, and I’m sorry, cause I just um sometimes overwhelmed, but I do read them and I appreciate them because I get a lot of the other messages as well. So it’s helpful. But I do have confidence that there are people that I never hear from that are, that are impacted, right? And so we don’t have to know everything. But along those lines of that, this is God’s work, I just wanted to add a couple of things because I think that is the most important part of this. Like, um, I just this last week, um, Ended up, um, taking down my video that was, that was on par to be by far the highest viewed, um, video I’ve ever done, right? And, um, and I took it down for a series of reasons that, um, that at some point, maybe I will talk about. But it was so good for me to have that test to again see, oh, I’m not about popularity. I’m not about channel size. I’m not about numbers. All the things people accuse me of, right? I’m about doing what I feel God is asking me to do, right? That’s it. And, and trying to be as wise as possible. And it was so good for me to see that my only end goal is trying to do what the Lord wants me to do, which I believe is trying to help as many people shed this false tradition of our fathers and let go of this heartache for whoever it’s heartache for. And, and, and to help as many people as possible, go through this repentance process spelled out in ALMA 26, so that we can have the windows of heaven open to us so we can receive the mysteries of God, right? Like, like that is what the end goal is. And that’s not about me. And that’s not because it is easy to, to sometimes feel like this is too hard, this monster of the lie of polygamy is so big. Not, not, I mean, in the church, but outside of the church. It even feels worse, right? Like what I’ve been listening to this week. But this, I just, every time I start to feel that, um, Stress and pressure and weight. It’s remembering that this is God’s work, not mine. Like, like, I could be taken out tomorrow. This work will go on, right? But the point that I really also wanted to say is the way that we can really let it be God’s work is to make sure that we are sharing without an agenda. Right? Like for me, if I had an agenda of growing my YouTube channel, I wouldn’t have wanted to take that video down that, um, that through, I, I know it’s so disappointing to people. And, and, um, if people have questions about it, please, um, send in a message to the contact form on 132problems.org, and, um, you can get your questions answered and get the sources that you need. And so that’s a helpful thing to know. But in the meantime, um, Because I am sharing without my own agenda getting in the way, I’m able to just follow those instructions as they come. And so I do want to tell people. That, um, I also, I love to share this message. I love to share this message with people who have left the church. And I don’t have an agenda to try to bring them back to the church, right? So we can just have a conversation. I think this matters on its own merits. This topic is its own topic, and it’s not about me trying to accomplish something else through it, right? And so I hope that also people that are sharing it, I sometimes worry that there’s an agenda to try to share it. Like, um, in opposition to the church, or to get people to leave the church, right? Like, like, I really just hope that as many people as possible, and I get accused of this all the time. How many times am I called a wolf in sheep’s clothing or being accused of having a false agenda, right? In fact, people will get a kick out of this. This has been going around for a long time before, and I guess it’s had a resurgence. Um, I just was informed by two separate people that, um, That there is a really important message being shared with people that I am in cahoots with John Dehlin, that we like speak weekly and strategize uh how we together are gonna bring the church down.
[1:22:55] Karen Hyatt: No, no, they’re on you.
[1:22:57] Michelle: I, it’s so funny. If people knew, like, watch John Dehlin’s video when he wouldn’t even see my, see my, say my name. And like, like he has, he has offered to have me on his show at least 3 times and then just ghosts me, right? He He does not want this message getting out. He’s, he sees me as, as big of an enemy as the most closed-minded anybody does. So anyway, it’s funny, but, but that’s what I also want to say is we need to do our best to take our, whatever our agenda might be out of it, because it’s just a matter of we feel called to share this for its own sake, for its own merit, because it’s true and because it can bring Blessings to people’s lives, even if, even if they have no interest in God, no interest in the church, I would think they would at least want to know that they have some really crappy information based on some really embarrassingly bad sources that should at least be discussed so that they don’t embarrass themselves anymore by, right? Like, like, at the very least, people should care about truth. And, uh, truth just for its own, like, historical, factual, verifiable truth that we can show. Fine. I, I’m not. Going to get into a discussion on the book of Abraham on with anybody, right? But, but these sources that some people are promoting are just embarrassingly bad. So anyway, that’s the, the thing I want to say is remembering it’s God’s work and taking our own agendas out of it is the way that we can be really successful and really joyful in the process,
[1:24:20] Karen Hyatt: I
[1:24:20] Michelle: think.
[1:24:21] Karen Hyatt: Absolutely. And, and preserve relationships, which is so, so, so important. I mean, it is. It’s just like, um, You know, if you’re, oh gosh, OK, so, so Clayton Christensen uh was a general authority, I think, a 70 at least, and um He wrote a book called The Power of Everyday Missionaries, if you remember that, if that sounds familiar. And in his book, you know, and of course he’s talking about, you know, you know, sharing the gospel, but of course this is part of the gospel. I mean, there’s no question that Joseph Smith’s character and God’s character, it’s all part of the gospel because it’s all part of truth. But anyway, so it’s applicable. But, but what made me laugh was, in his book, he talks about how he used to try to share the gospel by befriend. his neighbors, you know, fellowshipping them. Like, I’m really starting to hate that word because of how it’s used, you know. And so he would fellowship. Ah, so he would fellowship his neighbors, but, and, and like invite them to meet with the missionaries eventually or whatever. And when they would say no, and they would finally like decline any interest in the church, then he, he would, in his words, he would drop them like a hot potato. And it was, I was like, and, and like to quickly in his defense, the reason he’s writing this is to say that he’s repented of that, you know, so that is,
[1:25:47] Michelle: oh, he’s not promoting that. OK, I thought I was, I was like, I don’t remember that. OK, maybe
[1:25:52] Karen Hyatt: I could have started with that. And so, um, so no, but, and so he’s saying, but he’s saying that’s how he used to see sharing the gospel, and I was like, wow, and I just couldn’t believe anyone. I mean, in my most, you know, I’ve never thought that. I’ve never at any point thought that that was a good idea to share any part of the gospel in that way, like to make friends so I could share the gospel. It’s just insane to me. It’s so that the fact that he could feel that way, I was like, there’s probably a ton of people that feel that way, you know. And as, as unpalatable as That is and as offensive as that is, like, let’s not fall into that trap ourselves, right? And let’s not try to be like, oh, I’ll be friends with these people in my ward, just so I can share this message, you know, about the, uh, polygamy and stuff. It’s like, I mean, hopefully we wouldn’t do that, but hopefully no one would act like he did and they did. You know what I mean? So it’s like, it’s worth just a little introspect. once in a while. And, um, it just, it just makes it so much easier for your friends, friends, friends with genuine friends with the people around you, whether it’s your ward or your community, whatever. And it’s just a lot easier when you actually do love them and you don’t have to faint like love unfeigned, right? You don’t have to pretend because you do love them.
[1:27:11] Michelle: And stereotype. Yeah, that’s the bad stereotype in the church is that we, um, friendship fellowship people to convert them or we just are friends with someone because we’re called to be their minister or, you know, we want to be not by assignment, but also I just wanted to say that this idea of like Well, what that, what that amounts to really is using people and seeing them as a means to your end. It dehumanizes people and it makes them fit into your agenda, which I think is a polygamist mindset. That is exactly what polygamy does to women, right? Women are turned into objects to serve someone else’s purposes. And so, we never can, can I, I’m just gonna I call that a polygamist mindset whenever we see people as objects for to serve whatever purpose we have. That’s not, that is not who God is. That’s not what God wants us to be.
[1:27:57] Karen Hyatt: It’s not what it wants at all. It’s so amazing. And, um, it’s
[1:28:01] Michelle: interesting. I, I have to say I don’t, I don’t see that happening in the polygamy discussions. I haven’t, I haven’t seen people like, I’m gonna befriend you so I can teach you about polygamy. I haven’t seen that yet. So Right. That’s not something that we have to worry about. Right, let’s not have it be
[1:28:13] Karen Hyatt: something. Right. I hope that’s not happening. And, and I’m certainly not suggesting to do that. And, but, but I think there is a tendency that when, like, this is what I do find in this circle, that people have tried to reach out to people in their ward or what have you, and they’ve rejected it, and so they reject them back. And that’s the part that I would like to get rid of, you know, it’s like, go ahead and share your message, but if you’re rejected, Just accept that and turn the other cheek and still be kind to them and recognize that.
[1:28:44] Michelle: Yeah. And
[1:28:45] Karen Hyatt: you can recognize that in some small way, that person could be considered your enemy at that point, right? If they think less of you because of what you shared, it’s OK. It’s OK if you have, you, you know how to treat your enemies, because Christ taught us how. And so just do that. And what’s interesting to me is we all, yeah, like you just mentioned. Um, nobody wants to be a project, right? And nobody wants to be, you know, just someone’s agenda item or whatever. But the flip side of that is if you find yourself. The project. If you’ve spoken out enough in your community or your ward, and then you get wind that maybe they’re talking about you in ward council, right? And so suddenly someone’s reaching out to you, you know, and you realize that you’re a project, OK? How about if we try really hard to accept that graciously?
[1:29:45] Michelle: Yes, you’re like,
[1:29:47] Karen Hyatt: yes, your gut and your mind, everything tells you that they’re only reaching out to you to bring you back to the fold or whatever. Let’s just be appreciative of the reaching out and let’s just try to put the ulterior motive out of our mind and forgive, right? I forgive you. For making me a project. I forgive you for not really loving me. It’s OK. Like, that’s such a gracious place to be when you can go ahead and accept their outreach kindly, right? And I know that some people have been traumatized. I get that. And they’re like, I can’t have anything to do with this group of people because they hurt me too badly. I abs sympathize with that. And I understand that, that that can happen. Like, that’s not my personality, but I do have friends that that is their personality. It is just too painful. The memories of how they were mistreated are too painful, and they do not want anything to do with that person or group. Totally get it. But if you’re not at that point and you can possibly like, like, graciously accept. The kindness shown you, even if you know darn well it’s not sincere, that is really sweet and that can really invite the spirit in and help that person repent, you know, if, if their insincerity is met with sincerity, that can really help them.
[1:31:06] Michelle: Well, I’m gonna go now for a second. I have a couple of things I’ve wanted to add, so I’m taking little notes while you’re talking. But, um, but if people aren’t aware of the work of Byron Katie, I wanna bring that up now cause it’s actually been helpful in my life. And, um, it’s, it’s just something that I’m glad to have in my history and my arsenal that I’ve learned about, you know, I, I don’t, but, but it’s this, it’s this awareness that reality is whatever you perceive. Perception is reality, right? And so here’s the thing. If someone is doing genuine service, but in my mind, I think I’m a project, then I turn that into they’re just doing that because I’m a project. I have no idea what their actual intention is. All I know is my perception of it. And the fact is, since it’s not connected to anything real, I can’t actually know what’s in that person’s mind. I can only know what’s in my mind. So that’s up for grabs, right? Like, very few things are absolutely true that I’m perceiving, right? And so, So I have been really thankful for that, for that work. You can, and she has some great worksheets and I love it. And I would recommend it to everyone to just know that you can question your thoughts. You don’t absolutely know the truth of things. And so if someone is doing service for me, my little brain now is just like, You love me so much. Thank you, because really, the service is the evidence of the love, and it’s me making up a story about it that twists it into, oh, I’m just a project, right? And, and so, so that’s a really good thing to be aware of is that everything that we are thinking, we are usually projecting it on to other people, right? And we might be thinking of them as a project, which makes Them. So anyway, that’s something I want to bring up so that, so that we never have to be troubled by those thoughts. Because I, when I went through, um, certain, like, devastating tragedies in my life, I was really thankful that I had spent time learning those concepts, because they are incredibly helpful for any number of challenges. So I recommend that to everyone. And I also want to bring something else up, just talking about preserving relationships, because that is primary. That is like, Jesus doesn’t say, if you don’t all agree, you’re not mine. Right? If you don’t not believe this thing, you’re not mine. Jesus says, if you are not one, you are not mine. And being one does not mean being the same. So it doesn’t even mean agreeing on sometimes really important topics. Being one just means that we love each other, right? That we, that we see each other and love each other and that we can, we can see them as human beings. And right, I think, I think that’s what we are going for here. And so one thing I want to share also is that,
[1:33:40] Karen Hyatt: sorry, even if it, even if it does mean agreeing eventually. You know, cause you’re all brought to truth together. So I can see that that would be one eventually in every way. But exactly. But for, for now, you don’t have to immediately think the same. For sure,
[1:33:56] Michelle: for sure. And I, and I have to say that even I do absolutely believe that ultimate truth exists, but I don’t think any of us have it yet. So I think if we even if we’re thinking, like, I think what we all know everything, we will all agree. But I don’t think any of us are there yet. So I am very hesitant to be like, eventually they’ll Agree with me, right? Like, we’re all trying to come to truth together. And if we can recognize that none of us has it all, then I can see someone and go, Oh, they, I really disagree with that. But they’re in my life for a reason, and there are things for me to learn from them, right? And, and maybe my perception needs to expand, and I need to develop some character traits that they can help me have, like, whatever it is. So that’s absolutely, we,
[1:34:37] Karen Hyatt: we’re all waking up to different things. Like maybe someone is more awake to certain aspect of the gospel and someone’s like, Like one of the friends that I mentioned earlier, she has so much compassion, and she remembers details that I tell her about my family. She knows, like, my grandchildren’s names, you know, and I’m like, OK. So she, in that way, she’s so awake to that, to other people and to this compassionate side. And I, and I need to learn from that and I need to wake up more in that direction. So it’s, yeah, we’re all, we’re all just striving to be better, hopefully, you know.
[1:35:15] Michelle: Yeah. So, so, so that’s what I wanted to say is like, I’m bringing that up to say the, the relationships really are primary, and we can’t always control how people view us. But if we can love our fellow man, love one another, right? Love all mankind like Jesus tells us to. That’s what we’re striving for. That’s, that’s our, our job. So one realization that I had years ago that I wanted to share when I was struggling with some relationships. And, um, you know, my, my I just adore my mother, and we have had the best relationship. And there have been times that we have struggled. And, and, you know, there have been times that it’s been very, very challenging. And in one of those challenging times, I was really struggling with not feeling understood. Good, not feeling appreciated, you, you know, like, like, for different reasons. And I had this realization, without going into the details, and I don’t, like, this is nothing bad about my mom. This is all of us learning, right? And, and, um, and we’ve all, we’ve all grown a lot. But, um, at one point when I was trying to share some of these things with my mom, some of my religious ideas and some of my, you know, and she would kind of be like, listen for a little while, then just shut it down, you know, and, and, or, or whatever it was. And it was frustrating to me cause I felt like, like there, there were additional things going on. But one of the epiphanies that I had is that my mom has 9 children. Right? And we all want our mom to listen to us and to agree with us and to, so, so, like, for some reason, because she’s my mom, she’s obligated to hear my ideas and to validate my ideas and to agree with my ideas, right? Which is completely unfair. Right? Like, my mom has all of these kids. I can’t have that expectation on her. that she shows up exactly how I think she should and how exactly how I think I need her to. Right? And so I, and it kind of expanded. I, I mean, I hope that my mom does not take that, and then my mom is a gem. This was me realizing, oh, I have a wrong expectation here, and that’s hurting our relationship, because I’m feeling hurt by my mom when that’s my expectation that’s causing my hurt, right? And what it kind of has made me realize growing out of that is, when I share information with somebody, I’m actually putting a burden on them in a way, right? I’m bringing something up that may or may, they may or may not be comfortable with that, right? And that’s why it’s so important. To be very quick to not put a heavy burden on them. If they’re not interested, don’t put that burden on them. But I think it’s really interesting that we kind of go, because I share this with you, now you have the obligation to accept it and believe it, or I’m offended. Does that make sense? Right? And, and then we get our Hurt. And that’s how our relationship hurt. And so I hope that wasn’t a convoluted story. This was, this is kind of a hard concept to explain. But to me, it has been profound to realize that I am asking something of them or putting something on them to tell them an idea that I have. That’s important to me. I learned this a lot during, I, I mean, I’ve learned this in many different ways, but, but so it’s so valuable to recognize I’m offering them something. And if they want it, they can pick it up. But I don’t want to put it on them, right? Again, I want to offer my plate of cookies. I don’t want to start hurling cookies at them, right? So, and so that’s the difference. You can say, Oh, do they smell good to you? Cause if they do, you can have one. And if for whatever reason, if they’re like, Oh, I I’m really full, or, oh, I’m on a diet, or, oh, I actually, those look like disgusting cookies. I don’t want one, right? Like, well, I offered them, so that forced them to tell me what they wanted. And I don’t get to be offended if they say no thank you, or if they even say disgusting, right? I can just be like, OK, well, I still love you, my little cookies, and I’ll bring them over here and offer them to someone else, but I’m not gonna be offended that that person didn’t care for my cookies, right? That I offered to them. I didn’t have to offer it.
[1:38:57] Karen Hyatt: No, that’s terrific. That is such a good point. Oh, I love that so much. It, that’s exactly it. It’s delicious to us, and it’s all good and just, yeah, just keep building the relationship. You have about a million other things that you can talk about and enjoy together, and that’s OK. That’s totally OK. Uh, one woman I talked to recently. Um, she mentioned all this to her husband, like 18 months ago, and he kind of flipped out and was like, that’s garbage, and he just really was pretty not happy about it. So she dropped it for 18 months. Yeah. So, yeah. So anyway, she, she came, she came by my house to get, um, some books from me, cause some people, there was a different lady that was sure her husband would never watch a movie, but he would read a book. So she got one of my books and he read it and they’re on the same page now. So, you know, hopefully maybe this other lady that will happen to Um, but, but, you know, she said, Well, I, part of the reason she wanted the books was so that she could be kind of well versed, you know, and, and be able to find the documents or the scriptures. And I was like, you know what? That is actually could be in your favor that you feel like you don’t know those things, because at this point, you can say, Honey, can you watch this with me? Because I’m afraid that I might have a bias here. I don’t know. It seems really compelling to me, but I don’t know everything, and maybe I’m a little more biased than I think. Will you watch it with me and tell me, tell me if this crazy lady is off her nut, you know? And, and just like throw it out. I’m like that, so that you’re kind of respecting their opinion, enlisting their help, and, and genuinely so. You can genuinely say that when you Aren’t super well versed with the documents. You can be like, I don’t really know them. Can you watch this and let’s both figure out what part of this is true and what part’s false. That’s, that’s a wonderful way to approach things. And I’m always like, since, since I made the movie and you didn’t, you can, you’re, you’re all welcome to meet your friends with. This lady made this movie. I think it’s crazy, but she has some good points. What do you think? Throw me under the bus, tell them to watch it with a Critical eye, you know, and,
[1:41:11] Michelle: and just share scriptures. Like just share, right?
[1:41:15] Karen Hyatt: Michelle Stone on and go, she seems crazy too. What do you think? And approach it that way if that’s helpful so that you and your spouse or you and your friend are on the same side looking at this together and not, you know, you and Michelle’s episode against your spouse. You know, that’s, that’s no bueno. So it’s like there’s so many good ways to just build these relationships and And share in such a kind way. So anyway,
[1:41:39] Michelle: that’s. And I did, I have to, I have to bring the story of my mom full circle too, because it was when I was having my religious, I mean, I’m not, uh, religious, but it was my script, the scriptures and, you know, and sometimes she’ll be so supportive, and then other times she just like could not hear it, you know? And, um, but my mom, my adorable 90 year old mom is like my biggest fan and is, I mean, she is so on board with these ideas. And is so thankful to know them. And after giving an entire life, she is 90 years old, and she always says her entire life consisted of her family, her church, and her music. That is what she gave her entire life to. That was her, like, like she didn’t even have, um, much of a, um, time for a social life or for, like, like, like, I don’t really either very much. You know, she didn’t. She didn’t do other things. Those were the three things she did with every hour of every day. And that was all that she did, right? And so to have these, um, unsettling things about the history of the church, again, her mother grew up in polygamy. She was the oldest daughter of polygamists in the church. Her, her, um, her grandfather was in all of the high callings and, you know, was a mission president, but worked in the church office building. And, uh, so, so anyway, for her to be able to open up to this. Has been amazing and beautiful, even though it has caused her to re-navigate some of her faith. Cause we do have, there are implications that we have to work through. But my mom is completely faithful. Her testimony has never been stronger, right? So I just wanted to bring that up because that’s been A, well, like a, uh, almost 20 year process, you know, of like, of working that out and letting people come to the ideas as they come to them. And I, I think it would have maybe gone better in my family, some of my challenging relationships, if I had been able to, if I, if I learned these things I’ve learned earlier on, right? We look, we had a lot of learning through painful experience. But if I could have realized, oh, it’s not that they’re rejecting me, and it’s not that they’re rude to me, and it’s not that they hate me, and it’s not that they think I’m evil. It’s that They don’t, my cookies don’t smell good to them. So I just don’t need to offer them. I don’t need to be offended if they don’t want them. I could just, you know, and so, and, and anyway, these are good things to know, good things to learn, and that we can just keep our relationships primary. And that means our relationship with God and our relationship with others. Those are the two commandments. Love God and love your fellow man. The two primary commandments are not convert your fellow man to your idea of God. That’s not the primary commandment, right? And so everything that we do has to center in those two primary commandments, and we can go on and do so much good in this work.
[1:44:20] Karen Hyatt: Amen. Amen and amen. Just that’s beautiful. Thank you so much. Thanks for letting me come on and, and share some of this. It’s just been so exciting and I love, I, and people are like, why, why do you stay in the church? Like, I know they’ve asked you that and someone asked me that about you the other day. Why does she stay in the church? I was like, and it was such a, I mean, it’s such a surprising question. I love my ward. I love the people there. And so I’m totally happy to just keep helping with all the good things that are going on in the ward and You know, it’s so many reasons that that I, I like to be there, so you know, stuff’s challenging, you have to sift through now, you know, and, and pick the good and And be, it’s more of a smorgasbord, you know. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not a smorgasbord, but the church is definitely a smorgasbord, you know, the, the stuff that’s taught at church, of course, because we’re all mortals and we make mistakes. So anyway, I, I’ve just enjoyed it so much and I’m having such a nice time connecting with people. It’s, it’s fantastic.
[1:45:20] Michelle: Well, and so since you brought up the why, why you stay in the church question, I have to, I have to respond. To that my own, because someone did just send a message. Like, I’m always told, why don’t you just start your own church? I like, I’m like, What is wrong with people? I mean, first of all, you know, I have 13 children. I’m raising 11 children. The last thing I want is to be in charge of a single other person in this world, right? I have no desire for a following that. This is what I have to say, and I want to again, go on. The record and hope that even my detractors will open their hearts enough to hear the truth of what I am sharing, that I know God is in this church. I have been repeatedly called to stay in this church through some very difficult experiences and times when I thought I couldn’t stay, right? And I just made a, a comment and relieved. Society. We like, like, I, I, I wanna say this, like, the longer I have gone through this process, the more my commitment to the church has grown. And not my, it’s not my commitment to the church. It’s hard to find the language. But the more, the more grateful I have become for the church, that of the church of my youth, the church of my life, the more grateful I’ve become for it, the more good I have seen in it. And then, so therefore, the more committed I have become to it, and the more strongly I have felt the Lord calling me to be in this church. I have zero desire to hurt the church or to lead anyone away. I am troubled by some of the false traditions, which I think are actually that that actually validates the wis of the Book of Mormon, the foresight of the Book of Mormon, right? It told us, Hey, guess what? False traditions might be a problem. They might creep in, right? So a comment I made in relief Society, and they were discussing the church and kind of talking about how good the church is and, you know, I kind of, kind of talking a little bit about people who leave, or, you know, whatever it was. So I, I knew I needed to respond in some way. But I just shared, like, from my heart, I felt really inspired. I, I shared many more things. But one of the things I shared is that There are people that, well, that, that it’s OK that the church isn’t perfect, and it’s not. And we’re told that, right? But here’s what I want people to understand, and I shared a really personal experience that I’ll share again, you know, like, marriage is hard, right? And, um, there are times that marriage is really hard and Marriage, when you are navigating huge tragedies and difficult extenuating circumstances and other relationships becomes sometimes excruciatingly difficult. And at one point, when, um, you know, I mean, it’s never just one thing, but some things happened and piled up, and then something happened that made me feel like there was no way I could stay in my marriage. It was over. I saw no hope. I that it was over, right? And this is actually, um, When I was called to start this podcast, I mean, it wasn’t at that time, but it was when I was given the idea of it. But, so I’ll have to tell the story. I was, I, I share it, like, it was what I call the wisdom of the mothers, descending and first of all, saving me from the state I was in, which was, um, Uh, uh, it’s a lot to share. I’ve shared a little bit in the past, but it was like a radical, aggressive, um, suicidality that had descended upon me, that made me scared of myself, for myself, that I didn’t feel even control in control of. Right? In the state I was in the, the feeling of powerlessness and hopelessness and being trapped led to this place. And, um, and I ended up Because the night before I had been scared. I had, I had left and gone to drive in the middle of the night to try to resolve, and I kept finding myself accelerating toward stop lights or accelerating toward a cliff, you know, like, like, like it was like, what is wrong with me? I’m a mother of 12 children at it like what, you know, so I pulled over and I’m boy you guys are getting an earful, sorry, I ended up pulling over and like actually. Despite my complete humiliation, calling a suicide hotline, and I was like, these are for like adolescent kids, here I am, a pregnant mother of 12, like, you know, and um, but I was that broken that I and so the next night something similar happened and I knew I couldn’t drive. So I just, I found myself at the park down the street at like 3 o’clock in the morning in November, the middle of the, you know, in the middle of the winter, feeling like there’s no hope. I’m so trapped. There’s no way out. I can’t, you know, like, like that was the state I was in. And um I had, I call it the wisdom of the mothers is the only word I can use this divine feminine. Infinite compassion of, I, I credit it to the polygamist women who knew exactly how I was feeling. In fact, I think I was carrying their desperation, their pain. I think that’s what was leading to how extreme this these feelings were, and this wisdom descend upon me of letting me know that that thing that he just did. Does not define who he is. That thing that he said does not define who he is or what he believes or how he feels about you. That part of him does not define him. It’s not all of him. And that thing that happened does not define your marriage, right? It’s one part of your marriage, but it’s not your whole marriage. And that sounds so I hope that makes sense, and it just came with so much. Gentleness and love and healing and peace, and from that moment I was healed and it was the next day that I was praying in gratitude, so much gratitude, saying like, thank you, and I just felt like it was the mothers. I don’t have another term for it, and I said, what can I do to like, like what can I do in return for how you blessed me and I was told to tell other women. And that was where I got the first insight that I would be doing this podcast, right? Because, because I knew the pain that that hopelessness and powerlessness felt that comes from polygamy. So that was a side track. I did not tell that story in society, but I’m telling it now for some reason. But anyway, but I shared the answer that in my marriage, I have been told that that thing does not define my marriage, does not define my husband, right? My husband is a Amazing. He’s so, and I’m, I like, will never stop being thankful that my marriage was preserved through that wisdom and that healing. And the reason I brought it up is because that is the same answer I have had about the church, right? We have some wonky, crazy, awful things, but it is not everything. And our, our polygamist past does not define what the church is. It’s a part of it, but my goodness. Like even Even this week, as I’ve sat again counseling with some of my leaders and feeling the love and goodness and sincerity of these men sacrificing so much enough as I’ve sat in homes of some of the people that I counsel with in my ward and felt like the goodness. And when I go to church and I sit. Even in a difficult lesson, but feel that inspiration of the comment I can make, like in relief society, right? And when I, like, like the, the goodness of this church is so much more than our relationship with polygamy. That’s one thing I said in my relief society comment. I, you know, I didn’t say anything about polygamy. I just said, The church does not have to be perfect, and we don’t have to claim that it’s perfect in order for it to be very, very good and very precious, just like my marriage. I don’t need to claim it’s perfect in order to have it be of infinite value. And for me, that’s my relationship with the church as well. And you know what? My goodness, the roots are good. The roots of this church. are good for some people that have left may disagree, but for me, the testimony of Jesus Christ, the Book of Mormon, right, the things that we are taught about the love of God and the goodness of God and our ability to be connected to God, that is so good and so much of the fruit of the church is so good when I experience these people and What we teach, I like my children being taught from childhood by all of these amazing people that just volunteer their time to teach my children that God loves them. And that, I mean, like, there’s so much good fruit in the church. And you know what? Yes, some of the branches got crazy wonky. There, there is a mess of branches that I don’t want to have anything to do with, and I’d like us to lop them off. But that does not define the full church, right? And so that’s what I I want to share of why I stay in this church that I love and why I’m doing this work. I am going, look at this beautiful church. Hey, you know, those branches are making it harder for some people to taste the fruit of this church. Let’s chop them off, or let me help. Like I’m just gonna be up there with my little, my little pocket knife trying to cut some of those branches off, you know? That’s all I’m trying to do. And so I want to share that, that this is why I stay in the Church. It’s the same reason that I stay in my marriage, and I am so, so thankful for both answers.
[1:54:40] Karen Hyatt: Wonderful. Oh, that’s so powerful and it’s so spot on. It’s so terrific. I love that. I just love that with all my heart. You explained it so well. And, um, a really wise, I, I get some really insightful comments sometimes, uh, on my, in my comment section and One person recently pointed out that the wheat and the tears were sown very close together. They were sewn so close together, the parable tells us that the, the tears couldn’t be pulled out right away or it would have destroyed the wheat. And that, that’s where we are. Hang on to the wheat. They, they were both sewn together. The polygamy thing was almost immediate. It, it was immediate. It was sown at the same time, just like the parable says, right next to the wheat. It’s the wheat I’m here for. And so that’s just so cool and heavenly Father will separate them. He will separate them. And so the more we can do to get those cleanly separated, the better, and I love that. Thank you so much. Thanks for thanks for telling that it’s beautiful.
[1:55:44] Michelle: Thank you for coming on. And thank you. Oh, my gosh, everyone, please flood the comments telling Karen, thank you, thank you, thank you for everything. Like, editing this podcast is no light job. And then in the, on top of it, she’s made her video, and then she is spreading this message and willing to come share her beautiful insights of how she does this. I just, I appreciate you so much, Karen. I hope you, I hope you know that. And Carry on, sister, right? Hurrah for Israel back at
[1:56:13] Karen Hyatt: you, my friend, back at you.
[1:56:17] Michelle: I love you. I love you too. And you know what? Thank you to all of you, because like Karen said, this is, we could sit here, I could sit here making podcasts for, you know, for what purpose if people were watching them and engaging with them and sharing them and growing and learning and never be shy about sending messages if, um, if this podcast has helped you in any way, any comments, and, and if, you know, anyway, any positive feedback is very appreciated, very valuable, very useful, and Yes, carry on. We’ll see you next time. As I say all the time, every single week, I have to say again, thank you, Karen. Thank you for all that you do on this important topic and to help spread the word. And thank you for coming and sharing with all of us and engaging in this wonderful conversation. I appreciate you so much. And I’m also smiling as I’m thinking about you in your room editing this and smiling now, as you talked to us about. But I also want to tell each of you that follow this podcast, thank you for helping to spread this message. It is important, and I’m excited to see where we’re going. I appreciate all of you so much, and I will see you next time.
