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Transcript
[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon Polygamy. I was thankful for this opportunity to have a conversation with Kathy Bence, who has been a long time follower and supporter of this podcast and has made her own content that I think is very worthwhile. So she’s going to just kind of take us through some of her trajectory and thoughts on polygamy, which I really appreciate. Some of this is a review and that she brings some new insights to it that I think are very valuable. So thank you for joining us for this great conversation. I am so excited to welcome Cathy Bence to the podcast. Kathy and I have been friends online for quite a while. It seems like you’ve been following the podcast since almost the beginning. I’ll let you tell us that Cathy has started to make videos, um, on her own, which are fabulous, shorter videos that just hit right into, um, the core of something. Have you made 4 videos so far, Cathy? Is that 4? 4 videos. And she sent. Them to me. And she’s also been, um, just, she’s had such an interesting story and has shared, um, just online as we’ve been going along this journey together. So I invited Cathy on because I wanted to introduce everyone to her videos. And I also wanted her to be able to share her journey and her insights. I feel like she has a really good ability to cut right through into things and a really important perspective. So Cathy, thank you so much for coming on and welcome. Thank you. And I would love to have you tell us just a little.
[01:36] Kathy Bence: I’m just, I’m just gonna try to not give too much background, but polygamy related background. First of all, I wanted to mention Michelle, I think it’s so funny because I’m not an expert on this. You are the expert who has looked into everything, the scriptures, the, you know, the science behind this, all of the crazy history. And I just find it so funny that your critics think you’re emotional. So now they’re gonna really see an emotional woman. They’re gonna see an emotional, so they’ll know this is, this is what they should, they’ve been thinking you are. No, I am. Well, you know,
[02:11] Michelle: thank you for saying that because I think that’s such a, I mean, yes, there are times that maybe I tear up that I, you know, could control better, but I think that’s such a silly critique. We are talking about polygamy, and you’re not allowed to have emotion involved. When, and especially when God makes an emotional. Argument in Jacob chapters 2 and 3. God’s reason is, is an emotional reason. So thank you for bringing that up, because it does drive me crazy.
[02:38] Kathy Bence: OK. I bet. I bet. OK. Well, so, um, in my videos, I bring up a bunch of times I overplay this, and I mention that I’m a convert. And the reason I’m mentioning that is that I was 17 when I was baptized, and none of this was disclosed to me. So I feel like You know, what, what is that about? Or do we lie for the Lord still and we keep this hidden until woo, they find out about it at some point. So that, that’s why I bring that up and then I, um, so I didn’t know. I went to BYU somehow and didn’t figure this out. I went on a mission, and on my mission, I finally heard a lot about polygamy, but it was all anti-Mormon. There was a horrible book called No Man Knows My History by Von Brody, and we were told, stay away from that. It’s awful anti-Mormon stuff that talks about a bunch of wives that Joseph Smith had, and they were all lies. So, you know, I’m getting into the church more and more and more, and I’m still not knowing this polygamy thing. Can
[03:40] Michelle: you tell me the time period of that when you were being OK.
[03:42] Kathy Bence: So I’m, um, I was baptized in 1971. I was, um, on a mission in 1975 to 1976. And then I got married in ’78, sealed in the temple, and I’ve got some little kids, and I don’t know what time this is, but, you know, this is still pre-internet. So, um,
[04:04] Michelle: 70s, 80s is when you’re being told, like Joseph was not a polygamist at Santa. OK, right.
[04:12] Kathy Bence: So then I don’t know. I’ve been married for probably 5 years when I discover That part of my fate is to be an eternal, plural wife. And this is what you do to get to heaven. And it was such a shock to me because I had been on this train with my husband. I’m doing everything I’m supposed to do. We’re committed to each other. And this was really depressing news. And it’s depressing news because it’s the opposite of what I signed up for. I signed up for a faithful husband. We’ve heard, you know, I’ve heard about how important this eternal marriage is. And suddenly it’s not gonna be that. It’s going to be a one-sided, unfaithful situation. It’s really depressing. And then I think even more depressing than this is that Women are not equal in this picture. These numbers do not add up. Men have these kingdoms and they’re the center of the universe, and women are just these peripheral beings that Have no purpose except to give the man children. And it, it just feels so unequal. It feels like God doesn’t love half his children. I mean, none of this makes sense to me. So I just struggled with it for a long time.
[05:29] Michelle: Can you tell me how you learned that? What, um,
[05:32] Kathy Bence: I, I, I can’t tell you the moment. I remember that some people in my ward, I was in the same ward for almost 40 years. I loved my ward. We’ve moved. We’re not there anymore. But, um, this is in Southern California. And I can remember being really troubled by it and being given, um, Eugene England’s papers, you know, nothing’s online, but he was the one who came up with some theories on why this makes no sense. And um and that was all I had, and I just, it was just, it was depressing and I should mention my husband cause he’s a great guy, but he was a convert too. And this was just like kind of a non-issue for him. And he’s going, What? What’s all this about? You know, you know, why are you such a wreck over this? I just said, you know, he was trying to be understanding and the years are going by, and this is hard for him because he does everything to make me happy. That’s what he wants. He wants me to be happy. And he wants to solve problems. And this was nothing he could do anything about. So it will, you know, we’re on the same page now, but I’m just saying that it was kind of years of some challenges in that way too. Well, he’s trying to be understanding of this, but he doesn’t get it. He did not understand this.
[06:51] Michelle: I have heard that so often of how this really interferes with good marriages, right? Because I’ve heard from, I actually received an email from just such a great man who, who was kind of expressing how my podcast has had helped him empathize with his wife in a way he’d never been able to, because he’s just like your husband. Like, I want to make her happy. I want, but if God says this, what are we supposed to do? God wouldn’t give us something that would make us unhappy, right? So it was, anyway, it’s, it’s, it’s So, um, interesting, the different ways that this really does destroy marriages for good people, right? Good men. And I actually think that there were a lot of polygamist men who were kind of forced into it, who would have been otherwise really good husbands and really good men who What, when there’s nothing you can do to make your wife, wife or wives happy because you’re forced to do this, you, you have no hope but to just, I mean, throw your hands up in the air and say, just stop bugging me, you know,
[07:50] Kathy Bence: I think. Well, and, and I want to clarify, we’ve had a good marriage and we’ve been married a long time now. And, um, he, he, he told me, I would never take another wife. That’s what he would say. But how, how could you say that when you, it’s kind of like saying, I will never die. Well,
[08:08] Michelle: right.
[08:09] Kathy Bence: You know, you don’t know what’s gonna happen. And here’s the scripture that says you will, or you give up your eternity of You know, wonderfulness. So, um, it was, it was silly. Looking back, all of it is silliness, but that’s kind of what I did. But it’s
[08:23] Michelle: genuine pain. Yeah, it’s genuine pain because we are being told that this is who God is. That’s why it’s so, yeah, that is taking the Lord’s name in vain is so destructive because like we have testimonies, we have faith. What are we supposed to do? And this is what we’re being told. I have another two really quick questions. Do you think, well, well, first of all, did it, did it, um, invade your testimony at all? Did it erode, did you have to struggle with your testimony of the gospel or of the church? And do you think if it had been disclosed when you were investigating, it might have changed your conversion process or maybe made it better cause you wouldn’t have been slapped with it decades later, or a decade later?
[09:05] Kathy Bence: Yeah, um. I, I, I don’t think it, I believed everything I was told about the church. So whatever I’m, you know, the prophet tells us, whatever he says, that’s definitive to me. So that’s why this hurts so much, is that I think there are lots of women that go, Oh, that’s, that’s baloney. I don’t believe that. And so they’re in a great shape, but I just thought, well, it’s in the scriptures. It’s real. This is God. So it didn’t hurt my testimony, it just hurt my You trust in God. Well, it hurt my trust in God, because God is no longer good. If you have this, my, my feeling is that there is injustice in the world. We all know that, but that God is not the author of injustice. We live in this fallen world, there’s all kinds of bad things that happen. But suddenly, with eternal polygamy, God has injustice built into his plan. And suddenly he doesn’t seem like he’s a good god anymore, and that’s a really creepy place to be. I don’t like that feeling. So that was your, that was one of your questions. The other question was, would I have changed? I don’t know. I was 17, I, who knows? Maybe I would have if if someone had really explained. This is eternal plural marriage, not just saying, oh this is a weird thing they did in the early church, but if they had said this is eternal plural marriage and you will be living this in the eternities. I would have really, I would think I would have been smart enough. Who knows? Yeah. Who knows? When you look back at yourself when you’re young, you don’t know what, I don’t know. Who knows what I was thinking. OK.
[10:45] Michelle: OK. That, I guess I’m just asking because I think that’s part of why it would be so beneficial to remove the idea of eternal plural marriage, right? Because I think it’s a good thing that you were brought into the church. Yeah, I mean, you know, I, I like, I mean, I think that the church does so much good. And the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Book of Mormon is also wonderful. And there’s this poison. That’s still there that is going to mess things up for people at some point or another. I think it would be wonderful if, if we could. Kick back to the curb. So, OK.
[11:17] Kathy Bence: Right. Um, OK. Well, so then I, not that this will happen to anybody else. I was gonna give some older lady advice to people, but this isn’t, I don’t think this could possibly be a problem anymore. But here, I didn’t know about polygamy, all this, all these years, 10 years at least. And then I turn around and I do the same thing to my kids. Because I was so troubled by it, I thought, oh, I just can’t tell him about this thing that upsets me, and I don’t have any answers, and it’s from God, and I don’t want to mess up their testimony. So I never said anything about this. So they go through their teenage years, they’re growing up. And this really backfired big time because I had a daughter who, as she’s engaged, had a friend say to her, you know, you’re gonna be sharing your husband in the eternities with other women. And she freaked out, understandably, and she came to me, you know, the temple was a terrifying experience for her. She was expecting to see polygamy all through the temple, um. And she came to me and I was really a heartless mother. I just said, you know, I, I don’t know what to tell you. This is something I’ve struggled with all my life. I don’t have any answers. You just kind of have to go to God. And so she was traumatized by that. She ended up getting a divorce a year later, um, from that husband. And She tried to get a temple ceiling, and, and this was, you know, this was when I’m starting to figure out there’s something really wrong with this whole picture. And she’s told by her state president over and over again that she is separating herself from Christ. This is the worst thing she can ever do. He basically told her she was going to hell. He didn’t say those words, but that was what is implied.
[13:08] Michelle: You’re losing your salvation. Yeah. Yeah.
[13:10] Kathy Bence: So, um, this was, you know, not, I, I can, I can’t imagine being her age now, if somebody told me that, I just go, Oh my God. Gosh, I know more than you guys do. But I, back at her age, I worshiped those men. So I, I couldn’t imagine, but she stood up to them and she kept working on getting the ceiling canceled. But in the meantime, while she’s still working on that, her husband has found a new wife, and without and they ignored the law of Sarah, and he gets sealed to the new wife. So, technically, She’s a polygamist wife for a little while there, which,
[13:50] Michelle: OK, I respond to
[13:52] Kathy Bence: she’s so traumatized by this, and now, oh, she’s living in polygamy.
[13:56] Michelle: OK. So first of all, I don’t think you were a heartless mother at all. You said, because you were doing the best you could, right? We have these terrible ideas. But then the idea that to, if you want to divorce someone, there are generally reasons, right? Like, uh, like a husband that is not, does not seem like a good man to you, right? To be told that by separating yourself. From Him, you’re separating yourself from Jesus Christ is despicable. That’s just so awful, right? And then, and that you’re separating yourself from God and from your salvation. And like, our connection to God is dependent on these other people who maybe we don’t want to have anything to do with. It’s just, and then she’s forced into polygamy. OK. OK, I just knew it.
[14:40] Kathy Bence: OK. Well, I,
[14:42] Michelle: I have his husband has no problem. He can just go be sealed a second time. No question.
[14:46] Kathy Bence: I know. And, and there was, what is that section of 132? Low of Sarah, wasn’t she supposed to be consulted? She wasn’t. But, you
[14:53] Michelle: know, she was consulted, it wouldn’t have mattered because as she said, no, he just does it anyway. So,
[14:57] Kathy Bence: but I don’t know. But the story has a happy ending because she married a wonderful man who ripped section 132 out of all their scriptures. OK. He, you know, he was totally unaware of this until he met her, and then he went, Whoa. And then he understood her. And so I thought that was kind of a cute ending. So I, I also, one other thing, um,
[15:21] Michelle: I know that people are gonna freak out about the idea of ripping out. Like, I’ve not done that with my scriptures, but I think for a husband to be that sensitive to his wife is very sweet.
[15:30] Kathy Bence: Yeah, he is. He’s very, very wonderful. Um, so then the other challenges that I taught my children so well. To believe in the, I, we, my husband and I taught our children to believe in the church. You believe in everything. So there’s some that believe polygamy, and then there’s others that have married into families where polygamy is a huge deal. I mean, I guess it’s like your family, they come from this pioneer ancestry. They admire these people for doing this amazing thing of living in polygamy. They just practically worship this whole thing and So, the funny thing is, with our family, we can talk about politics all we want, but we cannot talk about polygamy.
[16:15] Michelle: Oh, wow. It’s the explosive.
[16:18] Kathy Bence: It’s very, yeah, we’ve done that. It is really bad. So we stay away from that topic. Now, I, I, of course, talked to my daughter, the one that had all the issues. I talk to her all the time and I talked to my other daughters, but I’m just saying as a family. This is like it is with most people in politics, you know, most families say, Well, we, we can’t do that. But that politics aren’t a problem for us, but the polygamy.
[16:40] Michelle: Isn’t that interesting? I actually don’t think you’re that unique, because polygamy, like when I, when I first started studying it in the scriptures and tried to bring it up with a couple of people, it was like, no, we don’t talk about that. Like, everyone is just terrified to talk about it. And then, yeah, and then we do have, I, it is amazing to me the, um, Emotional reaction it elicits from people who are determined to defend it. I, it, it’s, it’s shocking to me how you may not say bad things about public, I, I, you know, all I can think of is, is, um, 2 by 28, where it’s like they tremble lest they shall fall if their sandy foundation is shaken. I can’t make sense of it. It’s strange.
[17:20] Kathy Bence: It is, it is. Yeah. So my experience was a lot different than yours, Michelle, because you have said, you know, this didn’t bother you. I guess you were married and you didn’t have a problem and you looked forward to living this higher law. That was not how I saw things at all. So.
[17:39] Michelle: OK. Yeah, yeah. Well, it’s good to, I think I’m, I’m embarrassed now by how naive I was. It was completely unexamined. It was just that faithful. There are things we don’t understand, it’s going to be beautiful. And of course, in my little arrogant 20-something year old mind, oh, there will be people to help me keep my house clean. It would be wonderful, you know, like my own personal little servants. Oh yeah. OK, because that’s all the other women exist to be, right, right. OK. So thank you for that introduction. Cathy has prepared a, um, a slideshow for us. So I guess you’re, you’ve, so you’ve been in the church for
[18:17] Kathy Bence: decades. Yeah, I, I bring up being a convert, but I don’t feel like a convert. I’ve been. in the church for more than 50 years. So, this is, this is my life. But I’m just saying that conversion, nothing was ever mentioned. I knew about so many things, but why didn’t they mention that? I don’t know. So.
[18:37] Michelle: Yep. And I think that’s true also, like for a lot of people, he’d been growing up in the church who had no clue. I was interested to learn that too. I do want to know, when did you start to learn that polygamy is not a God, that you can discard it.
[18:50] Kathy Bence: Um, I would say that’s, I’ve probably with that daughter, it’s been more than 10 years, and I, you know, that, and that’s where that was the only way I found peace, frankly, I finally realized, oh my goodness. This is God. This is, and I think it’s kind of interesting because when you have a kind of a faith crisis about different things that you’re not believing everything in the church, most people are really upset by that, but I was, I was relieved. I like that thing, you know, so yay, that part, and I’m still working out. I don’t know. I, I go to church and anyway, we’re gonna get it. We don’t,
[19:29] Michelle: OK, so we’ll go ahead and go to Cathy’s presentation that she’s. Oh, and I should say all of Cathy’s videos, her channel will be linked below as well so people can watch them. I think they’re great.
[19:39] Kathy Bence: OK, um. OK. So, Karen detailed in her documentary how there’s a precedent for changing this. And I think about this thing, this where we said, Blacks, you’re black. I’m sorry, you can’t go to the temple, you can’t have the priesthood. And this affected me personally. I bought into this because I served a mission in Central America, and 6 months of my mission was in Panama, and this is in the mid 70s. And Panama, the canal was built by people who came over from different places who all had black blood. So we were in this country being told, don’t teach anyone that has black blood. And it was absurd the things we’re doing. This is one of these things where you look back and I’m, I’m embarrassed what we did. I, uh, because we were looking at how people look and, you know, doing all this racial profiling basically and deciding who it is we’re gonna teach and Um, anyway, so that I, I actually did teach and baptize a woman who did have black blood and, and she and I are still friends, and she talks about how silly that was. I mean, we used to, we came into her house and she wondered why we were asking to see her photo albums. I didn’t remember this, but
[21:06] Michelle: We were certainly taught to do that.
[21:08] Kathy Bence: what we did, you know, it’s just, it, it sounds so absurd to me now. So, um, that fortunately changed, and it seems so absurd and polygamy seems absurd too. And so I think there, it can be let go and I don’t have the power to do it. You don’t, but I think all of us kind of feel like we can maybe help wake up somebody at the top that will see that there’s problems with this. Because, for example, I, I’m, I’m guilty of this. I was, I was looking at black people and deciding that They weren’t as good as I was. I mean, that’s what I was thinking because I don’t understand. They did something in the pre-mortal life and wasn’t my problem. It didn’t affect me personally. Well, I think the same thing kind of goes on with men. It’s not affecting them personally, so they don’t really see a need to change this. But anyway, when you look back, you. Yeah. OK. All right. So, um, anyway, so when you have this ridiculous polygamy over the top, thinking about polygamy, this is one of these cute Mormon ads. I love these. They were so fun, and this one is warning you of bad parts to movies and music. You know, you can have a great movie and then you got something bad in there and it kind of ruins the whole thing, right? So, I’m thinking here is, This beautiful ice cream Sunday gospel, it’s got all these wonderful things. Oh, but then there’s this yucky cockroach polygamy thing that’s messing it all up.
[22:44] Michelle: Such a great insight. I remember a lesson where my um the the the bishopric member or the seminary teacher, I can’t remember who it was, had his wife make this beautiful chocolate cake and he had put in a half cup of vacuum cleaner. Um, filling, you know, so when we pulled it out, there was all the hair and the and stuff. That’s it was the same, that’s exactly it. That’s exactly it. I have this beautiful eternal marriage, and here is polygamy that’s just hanging around, ruining it.
[23:16] Kathy Bence: OK. That’s pretty yucky. So anyway, um, OK, well, so one of the things that I found really helpful early on is I used to listen to Dennis Prager in LA. He had a talk show. And I would think, are you familiar with him? I don’t know. Yeah. OK. So, um, he just helped me to have a different perspective on the Old Testament. I’m not a scriptorian. I was told polygamy was in the Bible, and that’s why we were living it. It had to be restored, right? And so, when I suddenly had Dennis Prager looking at the things that he said, He was really profound. He, he just said a lot of things. This was interesting to me. He said the Torah is not ashamed to describe the people of the book, the Jews, in a negative light. This provides support that the Torah is not man-made. After all, had Jews made up their story, they would never have portrayed themselves as critically as the Torah does. The saying, histories written by the victors did not apply to Torah or the Jews. And So I came to understand that while The Torah allowed polygamy. It was not crazy about it, and Dennis Prager would emphasize over and over again that Torah narrative is just as important as Torah law. So you have these horrible stories in the Old Testament. It doesn’t matter that they’re the patriarchs. It doesn’t matter how important they are. They’re living these lives where they’re getting mixed up in polygamy, not because God commands it. But because they’re lacking faith or they’ve got, you know, people lying to them or angry wives that want more kids because they’re living polygamy and they’ve got to prove themselves. So everybody’s getting mixed up in polygamy, and it always means unhappy, unhappiness, and unhappy families, and this is not what God wants. So. Anyway, I found he was helpful. I
[25:09] Michelle: yeah. So that helped you because that is so important. My husband has said often, like, we have one perfect example we’re told to look to, right? The prophets are not useful to us in order to put them on a pedestal and say, do exactly what they did, right? We’re only supposed to take Jesus as our perfect example. So, OK, yeah, I like that you shared that. Thank you.
[25:30] Kathy Bence: Yeah. So anyway, so then, um, One of the things I learned from him, I had never paid attention to this either, is that in that 3 command commandment about not taking God’s name in vain, this is the only commandment that says, the Lord will not hold him guiltless, that breaks this commandment. And I’ve never noticed that. I, I, this particular phrase isn’t in the commandment about murder, you know, there’s those 10 commandments. This is the only one that has that. Now, I Had thought in my simple mind. That taking God’s name in vain was not swearing and using God’s name. That’s what I thought it was. And that’s what I taught my children. And then suddenly it became clear that, no, this is something much more serious. This is doing evil and pinning it on God and attributing that evil to God. And now it really does matter because God His name is hurt, and his children don’t have faith in him, and they turn from him because they’re don’t want to worship a God who’s evil. And he gives the example of terrorists blowing up innocent people and claiming God says, do this. And I’ve heard a lot of Muslims saying, no, I don’t, that’s not me, that’s not my faith, that’s not my God. So, Anyway,
[26:53] Michelle: that’s excellent. Yes, I, I’ve said often we have to stop blaming God for the mistakes of man. That’s exactly what it is, right? Yeah.
[27:00] Kathy Bence: Right, right. So, um, Anyway, everybody knows where I’m going with this, that I, I really have come to feel that this polygamy thing is just a perfect example of taking God’s name in vain. And it is super creepy in a way that we use this to convince women to, you know, have relations with married men, basically. We’re taking God’s name in vain when we’re doing this. And it bothers me, and it seems like such a convenient justification because we understand the nature of man. The natural man who, by the way, is an enemy to God, the natural man wants variety, wants lots of women. You know, we as women have our issues too. I like to gossip, but that doesn’t mean it’s a good thing. And so you have these men that want this, and their choices are to either follow God’s commandment and be faithful and cleave to their one wife, or to get a mistress and not follow God’s commandment. Fine, you know, do that. That’s, that’s what it’s your choice. But then to say, God wants me doing this. That, that is taking God’s name in vain.
[28:16] Michelle: And God, God commands me to do it because this is what God does.
[28:22] Kathy Bence: This is who God’s. Oh, I know. Oh yeah, that’s so awful to picture God as this polygamist. Oh my goodness. Yeah. So.
[28:29] Michelle: And isn’t it interesting? This is the gospel topics I say, right? And I’m just looking at that in biblical times, the Lord commanded some of his people to practice plural marriage. How do we have something that blatantly false stuck right there so prominently on the church website? Like that’s really tragic. OK,
[28:51] Kathy Bence: yeah, it wasn’t commanded, right? Never, yeah, so, um. Anyway, you know, that particular teaching, you know, whatever your thoughts are about the Book of Mormon, it, it has a lot of insights, and it certainly has lots of insights about polygamy. And I just find it interesting because if you’re poisoning God’s name, you, you sometimes are poisoning other things too, and they did poison by this polygamy thing. I know firsthand that they poisoned the Book of Mormon. Because I have a lot of Christian friends, and they think this is the most evil book. They’ve never read it, but they think it’s an evil book and they won’t get near it, because they look at the church as bad example and they assume. This applies to the Book of Mormon. So anyway, kind of an interesting mess to be in. So, OK,
[29:41] Michelle: yeah, that’s and I can’t think of a better thing. If I were the adversary, right? And the gospel was restored and the Book of Mormon was brought to the earth, the best thing you could do is taint it with these horrible things like polygamy, um, blood at Mountain Meadows massacre, right, to just give it. Like, like you associate it with the worst of the things that Brigham Young did and it’s done, and we’re still trying to dig our way. And then racism, racism is another huge one. We’re trying to dig our way out of that, right? And the interesting thing is you could also read the slide as like the Book of Mormon is poisoned the polygamy narrative, right? They like what it actually says because it opposes it so directly.
[30:22] Kathy Bence: Yeah, yeah, that is so true. Yeah. So anyway, the point is, you take God’s name in vain, you hurt God by doing that. You hurt God and hurt his reputation. Um, OK, so then, um, one of the things I, I think it’s just important to know is that In 2011, the Supreme Court of British Columbia considered whether Canada’s prohibition on polygamy was constitutional. And this law was over 100 years old. At that point, gay marriage had been all over Canada, was legal everywhere in Canada. And so they’re considering this in, in 2011, and they’re really expecting that this judge will throw out this thing that says you can’t practice polygamy. But, um, That’s not what happened. And, and instead, the opposite happened. He said, no, this is gonna stand. And then in 2018, that’s what this particular article is about. This is 2018. They reheard this case and the decision prohibiting polygamy was upheld again in 2018. So, um, Rose McDermott wrote this book and she talks about this case, and Valerie Hudson’s name is familiar. She, a lot of people will know her, um, a former BYU professor with Texas A&M. And so they used, she gathered all this evidence and data, and she’s the one that testified in this 2011 case. And that’s why the judge threw this out, and Valerie Hudson. Talks about how every outcome of this lifestyle is negative, and one of the most irrational choices a society could make is legal or de facto toleration of polygyny. And so on one of my um Videos I go through all the things. I mean, it just everything it it affects everything, every family men, women, children, society, governments, everybody, they’re all messed up by this. Everybody gets messed up.
[32:30] Michelle: Right. Every outcome is negative and, and it affects every single aspect of individual. Yeah, it, it, it is an amazingly diabolical thing and it, and how pernicious it is, and the bad outcomes. Yeah, by their fruits, isn’t that right? You’re supposed to pay attention to?
[32:49] Kathy Bence: Yeah, yeah. So, um, based on this extensive research that they did. This judge, Justice Bauman, he concluded that regardless of the individuals living it, no matter where they are or who they are, the harms are inherent, universal, and clear. And so I just, I find that interesting because he did not mention. There’s an exception for early Saint Mormons. He didn’t say that. One exception where these people are gonna be just fine if they live it. Everybody is gonna suffer under this lifestyle.
[33:21] Michelle: That was a huge thing to me as well, putting together God’s reasons for the prohibition, which it could be this whole thing. You know, it could be the damage it does, how pernicious it is to all of society, but God focuses on The harms to women primarily, right? And the interesting thing is, when you study our, our, um, ancestors, our early, um, Mormon polygamy heritage, we are not exempt from this. The every single example is present. Every single thing happens, and it happens in polygamy today. I know that people like to argue, like polygamists. We throw out, well, there are bad monogamous marriages. Can we just stop making silly arguments? And there are families that do it better than other families. There are some families that aren’t as bad as other families, but in general, it’s just universal. Polygamy has terrible fruits. Period. OK. That’s,
[34:11] Kathy Bence: that is true. So, um, And, and I want to add that, you know, as an eternal doctrine, it’s harmful too. Because you, you had Tanya Toole on with holding out help, who helps to rescue people. And, and she’s pointing out, yeah, she is. And she pointed out. That all these polygamous sects, I’m living in southern Utah, so I know about this. We moved here 6 years ago. It was a shocker. You can identify some of these people, you can’t identify all of them. There’s a gazillion different polygamous sects that are offshoots of us that all have our scriptures. They’re using 132. And they’re living this, and they’re looking to the biggest church of all, which is us, and they’re saying, wow, they believe in 132, because there it is in their scriptural canon, and yet they’re not brave enough to live it. But we’re the, we’re the brave ones following God. We’re living it, even though they know it and they don’t live it.
[35:11] Michelle: Mhm. Yeah, in their mind, we’re apostate and we are providing cover for them, right? We are validating what they are doing, how they are teaching their children, mhm,
[35:23] Kathy Bence: right, right, so. OK, so when you, and I think, uh, and then to think about the other thing is that, you know, by keeping this in our scripture, there are people who leave our church and go become polygamists because they read Section 132. It says right in there, you’re damned if you don’t live this law. So they’re just trying to be obedient, I’m guessing. And
[35:44] Michelle: they dig out, they dig out the old, um, sermons from the Journal of Discourses or the teachings of Brigham Young, right? And it’s there. It happens time and time again. And people are not aware. Tanya Toole, since you brought her up, she actually talked to me about this, and then it’s come to my attention more and more. There are many undercover polygamists who are doing missionary work, who are trying to convert people to this. Like, defending Utah as an organization, ultraconservative. Ben McClintock is the head of it. He’s a, he’s a polygamist.
[36:13] Kathy Bence: And yeah, I was so sad because I like stuff that depressed me. Oh my God.
[36:18] Michelle: And I’m going to go ahead and I haven’t named it before, but there are many people, a lot of the people going after me really, um, aggressively are either like, like, are, are very bullish on polygamy or our current fundamentalists, right? They believe these things. Whether or not you have one or two wives presently, but, you know, you can have one wife presently, but be looking for your second wife. You’re still a polygamist, right? And so that’s what’s so interesting. And why, why I think this matters so much because this, um, spirit of polygamy, this deceptive, compelling, um, self-aggrandizing spirit that teaches you, you’re the righteous one, you know more than the others. They’re not living it right that, right? It is still alive and well and doing its diabolical deeds, right? This is still we are still all subject to this, and it happens a lot. Like, like, I don’t even know. I don’t know if I can say most, but I I have met so many current fundamentalists who were converted out of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, right? It happens all the time. People need to be aware of this, and they are, um, undercover, right? They like, like, or even things like the Joseph Smith Foundation that maybe they’re not all active fundamentalists. They follow the same tactics. They have the same teachings and the same beliefs. And, and anyway, it’s really, really pernicious and still happening. So, yeah,
[37:42] Kathy Bence: exactly. That’s crazy. OK, um, So, This is another thing that comes from overthinking polygamy. You know, I learned about a Ponzi scheme and I went, wow, that’s exactly what polygamy is because in a, in a Ponzi scheme, Uh, the first investors are paid with funds invested by later or newer investors. So with men as the investors and women as the funds, the first men investing in polygamy take multiple wives, including those much younger than themselves, which is what they always do. And then the generations of newer investors have already contributed their potential wives. So this multiple wives scheme is doomed to collapse. Yeah. And so the only way out of this is to get rid of the men who are gonna mess up your scheme. So that’s why we have Lost Boys today, and I am living in Southern Utah, so I’m very familiar with Lost Boys who are adults now that I know who were kicked out when they were young.
[38:49] Michelle: It is, that, that is a tragedy that does not even get, like, that is an that is a tragedy of like untold proportions. It is so horrible what they do to these young men.
[39:00] Kathy Bence: So horrible. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It’s awful. So, and then I, I didn’t think about this. I don’t know if I heard this on your. You’ve got so much information, Michelle, but you might have said that really, that’s what castration was. That was, they didn’t kick him out. They castrated him and kept him around to do work, but it was to prop up this
[39:22] Michelle: kings had eunuchs, right?
[39:25] Kathy Bence: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, OK. And then, um. You know, we, we always heard about all these, I know you’re familiar with this, but all these extra women, there’s just so many women in Utah. I mean, what are you gonna do with them? You gotta marry him because there’s so many women, and then we find out, no, there weren’t, there were actually more men in early Utah. And so, even if, even if there had been the reverse of this, and there had been more females than males, polygamy would still have been a bad idea because it would have a horrible outcome. So just, you just don’t do it. But, but as it turns out, the excuse didn’t even work. So, you know.
[40:04] Michelle: That’s so true. And yes, the fact that we have to keep making up excuses to justify it is a problem. Then the excuses don’t work. But we can even say, like, I like that you brought that up, that even if Excuse worked. It’s still not OK, because what if, as was the case, Utah had way more men than women? Should we have polyandry to make that work? We also have the example of King Lemhi in the Book of Mormon, where it was exactly the scenario that you would think would be the perfect, um, breeding ground for the perfect use for polygamy, where all of the men were killed and there were, there were all of these widows, right? And that would be the perfect time to say, OK, every man needs to marry 5 women. Instead, he said, the king said, every man needs to Provide for all of the widows. If you really, even, even if we want to say there were way more women than men, it’s just prostitution. It’s saying in order, Jesus said, provide for the care for the widows and the orphans, right? Polygamy says, if you want me to care for you, you have to marry me.
[41:01] Kathy Bence: Oh, that’s awful. I didn’t think about that. Wow.
[41:04] Michelle: Yeah. It’s, it’s like, really, it’s not, it doesn’t work on any level. And I love, wasn’t it BH Roberts that pulled this, that did this study and found out that didn’t even work anyway.
[41:14] Kathy Bence: Yeah, so, oh dear, yeah. So we’ll, we’ll be generous with you if you are generous with us, is what it’s,
[41:22] Michelle: that’s why it talks, that’s why in the Book of Mormon, it always associates it and equates it to whoredoms. It forces women to prostitute themselves, to eat, to be, have a house over their heads, even if, and that’s not even that true because the women often were not provided for at all. So their sons had to provide for them very
[41:40] Kathy Bence: commonly. Oh wow, that’s where that’s crazy. OK. Well, it, it is a bad, um, harmful situation. So, um, something else that I am concerned about is that we, we know that God repeatedly commands men to cleave to their wives. That’s all over the place in Scripture. But we don’t always pay attention to this scripture that’s in Genesis 3:16, and I don’t know if you can see the whole thing on my screen. You can’t,
[42:10] Michelle: but for some reason.
[42:11] Kathy Bence: Yeah, I don’t know what that is. But, um, Anyway, this is, uh, this scripture is painful, and Dennis Prager actually helped me with this scripture a little bit too. He’s got some ideas, which I’ve linked on one of my things to explain the other parts of this, cause we don’t want to think that somebody’s ruling over us, but he’s got the Hebrew, he’s got a different explanation for that wording that’s troubling. But in this, this is after Eve, um, has eaten the fruit in the garden, and God tells Eve that her desire will be to her husband, Genesis 3:16. Her desire will be to her husband. So, here we are and um In the 60s, we heard from a lot of feminists that were saying you really don’t need a man. And it just, I find it so interesting cause they sound a lot like some of these early polygamous women who are trying to survive in polygamy. And the only way they can survive is, yeah, they’re stuck with these men, but they sure don’t want to desire them. It’s the last thing they want. They want to be separate and Zya is the one that we tend to quote the most because of the thing she says, and I won’t read her whole thing, and probably your audience is already familiar with what she said, but it is. A feeling that you have to really, you don’t want to desire your husband. You’ve got this God-given need to desire your husband don’t desire your husband. You gotta stay separate from him cause otherwise your heart will break, your emotions will break. It’s gonna be an awful thing.
[43:42] Michelle: So the only way to protect yourself from the pain is to separate yourself from who you really are from this connection to your spouse. Wow, OK, that’s, that’s a good insight because a lot of times people will try to justify the early Mormon polygamy by attaching it to feminism, right? And say these women were feminists, they did all these things they were voting, they were right. But it’s like all of the all of the negative parts of feminism that really are like we don’t need men. It destroys the the unity between man and woman. OK, that’s really, I haven’t made that connection before. I like that a lot.
[44:19] Kathy Bence: Yeah, yeah. So, um, let’s see, and I’ll, OK, well, so her Zionist survival tips advise women to abandon their divine desire and so that they can instead be successfully be a a multiple wife. So, um, Something else that I think is important to to consider, and this is just my thoughts. I’m not an expert on this. I don’t know. But women in the 1800s, that is the Victorian era, and they were the protectors of higher standards. They were, and isn’t that exactly what the relief Society was trying to do under Justice Smith? They were trying to protect these higher standards. And so, in my video, I talk about how as a young woman in the church, which it wasn’t called young women, it was called something else way back then. But it was very fascinating to get to hear what they would tell us. And I, I don’t know if there’s truth to this. My daughters feel like this is awful that I say this, but girls were the gatekeepers of sexual purity. I heard that as a young woman, that we would instinctively, as women, Feel more remorse if we messed up on this law of chastity. We’re gonna feel the pain more than a man will. I don’t know if that’s true or not. May not be true now, but I know it would have been true in the 1800s. So, um, you know, it would have been true. So here’s I think,
[45:49] Michelle: I think that people need to understand this because they use this as a, like, women were shamed and shunned and men just got off scot-free. That is not what I actually see when I dig into the literature and the sources. Women, the mothers and grandmothers were the ones who were enforcing the societal standards in protection of their daughters and granddaughters, right? And that’s, that is how it has worked often in many societies from my understanding, but certainly in in the history of America. That really is how it was and it wasn’t a, um, a, a, a demeaning thing. It was that women bear the brunt of Sexual intercourse, right? Women are the ones that get pregnant, that, that deal with that in their body in a way that men don’t. And so it requires society and forcing men to not use women that way, which is exactly what the scriptures teach and, and the women in Enforce that. And I mean, the men do as well. But yes, it was the women that did, um, prohibition and the women that, you know, and that was why relief society, a big part of it being established was we need to protect the morals of our community. Yeah. So you’re right
[46:57] Kathy Bence: on. Right. So, so here are women. Who have this God-given desire towards their husbands. They have this feeling that um they are somehow the protectors of, they’re the ones who need to say no. They are the protectors of this. Trying to keep away from immorality. And then we have the Spirit of Christ, who’s given to every, is given to every man, and that’s cut off. That is Marona something. Maroni 7:30, I don’t know what it is, but I’m sorry that it got cut off. But, um, and then we have in the scriptures, the, the study helps under conscience. It says that God has given us this spirit of Christ, and the light of Christ is there, and it’s our conscience, and like other faculties, it can be deadened through sin or misuse. So I find it very interesting that whenever they talk about polygamy, when you look at the church essays, always, everybody, when they initially hear about this, they’re horrified. And every woman, and then I, I think it is really funny that even Brigham Young said he desired the grave. He would see a corpse and he wished he was that corpse. That’s how much he claims he hated this. So initially, Everybody seems to know there’s a problem with this, but then they’re living it, or they go and they say a prayer, and then suddenly it’s OK. God has told them, yeah, go for it. But that everything seems to be wrong with this. So I, I just think it’s women. I mean, Brigham Young may have claimed he suffered, but I think the women truly did suffer because they had this innate desire for their husbands. They had this thing telling them they are the ones that are supposed to be protecting morality. They’re the women who are supposed to say no. And suddenly they’re allowing their husbands to be with multiple partners, and they’re letting this happen. And it had to be absolutely demoralizing and degrading and knowing that somehow this was going against their nature. And so, uh, I, I find it interesting that then we’ve got Jacob 2, where God, he hears the sorrow and he, he recognizes this heartbreak that women feel. They don’t explain exactly what the heartbreak is, but I think the heartbreak had to do with these things, with women’s conscious their conscience telling them this is wrong. I was, I’m supposed to desire a husband. I don’t get to because there’s no husband around to desire. I can’t desire a husband when he’s off cleaving to, not cleaving effectively. He’s ineffectively cleaving to a bunch of other women. And so women were feeling the emotional pain of this. I, I am guessing.
[49:49] Michelle: That’s so interesting. That’s a really good insight that I don’t think I’ve thought about before, that part of the pain. Is the complete disempowerment of women and forcing them. I just, um, recorded an interview that will be released before this one was and um where Colleen Rogers talks about being forced to do things that she knew were wrong and to defend things that she knew were wrong in her calling in the church because her leaders told her she needed to do it, right? And that really. Cause some trauma for her, you know, and I think that that’s kind of what you’re saying that these women are also separated from their conscience and from their selves and I, I mean, I think that um men. We can’t, we can’t put the, um, we can’t put it on girls to say, men are, boys are gonna do what they’re gonna do. It’s your job, right? Like the scriptures make it very clear that men are not to try to, to seduce women, that they are held accountable, right? But, but the idea that women are so disempowered that they are watching what their husband is doing or watching what their daughters are going through, and they have to. Support it. They have to say that’s what God is. They’re not, they’re not allowed to say no, or then they become vilified and evil and discarded. So they’re completely disempowered from a big huge part of their divine identity and their divine role. That’s really interesting.
[51:10] Kathy Bence: Yeah, yeah. So what a mess. Um, basically, Um, I’m trying to say here that polygamy interferes with a commandment God has given a man. We know to cleave to his wife, so this polygamy interferes with that. And then it also interferes with the virtue God has given a woman. Her desire for her husband, it’s interfering with that. And then it’s interfering with the conscience that God has given all of us. We’re all having to kind of put our conscience on hold. And of course, this is if you’re living it, but I think it applies just with this crazy teaching about it being an eternal principle that we’re supposed to embrace, and it’s so beautiful and No, it isn’t beautiful, and it’s not in line with God in so many different ways. So I think we as women, more even than men, and we instinctively know that this polygamy morality is not moral. It’s, it’s immoral.
[52:11] Michelle: Right. I love that. I love you pointed out that you pointed out that we have to make excuses for it on every level all the time. And they had to back then, right? They had to say, no, I desired the grave. It was it’s terrible because the light of Christ lets everybody know this is awful.
[52:27] Kathy Bence: OK. Yeah. So, um, In 2019, there this was a Salt Lake Tribune article written by Jana Reess, and it shared how there had been changes to the temple and and it was wonderful. Women were extolling this wonderful changes because it, it had women less marginalized. And one of the things it said was that no women would no longer hear that they would be queens and priestesses under their husbands. And so that was gonna be wonderful news. So I went to the temple, you know, really excited to hear this, um, what was gonna go on. And instead of hearing that I would no longer be a queen and priestess to my husband, I heard that I would be a queen and priestess in the New and Everlasting Covenant. And my husband, on the other hand, had been a king, what, whatever the wording, unto God to rule and reign forever. So he was gonna be unto God to rule and reign forever. I was going to be in the new and Everlasting Covenant. That’s the wording I heard. I didn’t know exactly what they meant, but I had struggled with this topic for a long time, so I was not happy. And this is not what I wanted to hear, sitting in the temple. And so all I had understood was that 131 and 132 had to do with marriage, and seemed to me it had to do with eternal plural marriage, and I knew that 131. is about um. You’ve got to have this this new and everlasting covenant. You got to be part of this in order to obtain the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. So I heard that and I was not happy and um I was trying to figure out what I was gonna do and at this point, thank goodness I’ve got the internet, so. The website is called Section 132. He spells it all out. It’s 132 WordPress. We can link to it if you want. Um, but anyway, so I found his website and, and I felt like he explained what 132 does. Because to me, when I had read 132, All, uh, it was just hard. Speaking of emotional women, here’s an emotional woman. It was hard to get past the emotion of reading this section because I saw virgins, I saw everybody women getting passed around. I saw women being told, you will accept unfaithful behavior from your husband, or you will be destroyed if you don’t. All of it just felt so degrading and so, just awful and depressing and so unlike a decent god. So, but I couldn’t really pinpoint what 132 was telling me. It just was all this awful wording. And he explains this, and maybe other people have explained this too, but when I read this, I went, wow, this is what it is. Because this is Joseph apparently, I know we’re doubtful that he did, but apparently he’s inquiring, wanting to know how we justify all this polygamy in the Old Testament. That’s what he wants to know. And sure enough, there’s the answer in verse 2. God’s gonna answer this for you. I’m gonna tell you, Joseph, how we justify polygamy. Well, I’ll answer thee as touching this matter, and that’s what this whole section is gonna be about. And the way I justify it is with a new and everlasting covenant. And so, That’s there, and I find that that is what this section 132 says. Now in if you go Google this and on LDS.org, you can see um That there’s a talk by elder Marcus B. Nash of the 70, and he says that the new and Everlasting covenant is the sum of all covenants. It, it includes everything, including internal marriage. It doesn’t have to include polygamy. He does touch on that in his talk. And so I think that’s great that he’s saying that. I, I don’t know what it is exactly, and maybe he’s right, whatever. But when we look at Section 132, that’s not what Section 132 says. So maybe that’s the reason that it’s time to rework section 132, get rid of Section 132, or be honest with us and tell us, yeah, this is all about polygamy. Please tell it, you know, just be honest with us. I, I don’t know what to do with this information. But the stories aren’t matching.
[57:05] Michelle: OK, that is so interesting. So can I, like, express some thoughts on this, and I’ll just, um, take the slides off for a second. So this is so interesting because it sounds to me like what you’re asking is, is this a step up in the temple or a step down, right? Because it used to be that we were sealed to our husband, not to God, that we look to our husband, we obey to obey our husband. And that, so the hus our husband is our. between, between us and God, right? We’re dependent on Him. Kind of like your daughter’s story of trying to get a temple divorce and or getting the ceiling canceled, and her state president saying, Well, then you’ll be damned, right? And so you’ll lose your salvation. So, so it seems like it’s better if we are covenanting directly with God. But then when we are said, when it’s said that we are in the new and everlasting covenant, According to 131 and 132, that’s the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, which means plural marriage. So it again relegates us to plural lives in order to receive our exaltation. So, what I find interesting is that I did, in a recent episode, go into the New and Everlasting Covenant to some extent, because if you study out the New and Everlasting Covenant everywhere else, other than 131 and 132, it’s completely different. It is what Joseph was restoring and what was meant to be proclaimed to all of the people. It’s baptism and the, it’s, it’s the, um, You know, it’s the doctrine that the Book of Mormon is spelling out for us, how we follow Jesus Christ, how we covenant to Jesus Christ, right? And it’s, it’s, it’s newly restored, but it’s everlasting because it’s the same covenant that’s been throughout time given to Adam and Eve is, is my understanding of it. So that was really interesting to me. And then going and looking into the Joseph Smith papers and seeing how often Joseph Smith sees. Filled, um, letters with your brother in the New and Everlasting Covenant, right? Like that was, so that would fit perfectly if we go to the actual definition of the New and Everlasting Covenant, then I would think that would be beautiful. And my only concern would be that there’s a difference between the men and the women, which does not seem to make sense, does not seem to be scripturally supported and does not seem to be needful. Right, and I think we’re OK to discuss, um, I mean maybe some people will object to it, but they are changing the temple around right? and and changing things around so I think we’re OK to say, oh that how are we supposed to take that and right anyway, I would think it would be interesting if both men and women were sealed in the new and everlasting covenant. Especially if we get rid of 132, or at least that portion of 132 that totally perverts something as critical and central as the everlasting covenant that that God restored through the prophet Joseph Smith. So anyway, that’s my thought on it is that could be a really good change. I would like to see it the same with men and women, and we have to divorce ourselves from the false ideas that 1322 puts forward. It’s never the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. That was never, so that’s one, and I will say there is no good support for 131 and 132 in the scriptures. If you look through and see where we got those revelations, they’re not revelations at all. There’s no reason to have them, and they were added in. That both together in 1876. So yeah, so, so anyway, that’s a really interesting insight. I’m not gonna completely lose hope on it because I can see the tradition, I mean the, the actual original meaning of the everlasting covenant. And it could mean that we just need there to not be the difference between men and women, right? It would that feel better to you?
[1:00:32] Kathy Bence: I, I, I, I don’t know. I mean, if 132 wasn’t there, I maybe wouldn’t have had a problem. I don’t know. I don’t know. But the, the, the ruling and reigning forever unto God and then, you know, an everlasting covenant and it ties in with polygamy that just did not sit well with me. I was not a happy kid. Hamper coming out of that temple session. So especially when I had these high expectations.
[1:00:55] Michelle: That’s a really good insight because it is super problematic how that that did change us back to straightforward polygamy.
[1:01:03] Kathy Bence: It’s a really big problem. I don’t know. I don’t know. Well, then, um, when I looked at that website section 132 that’s written by this guy named Michael Matthews, Michael pointed out, and I just hadn’t paid attention to this, that the wording changed for the Law of chastity, and it changed pretty dramatically because it used to be that a single husband and a single wife was mentioned in that, in that particular thing, part of the temple ceremony. And now they were using the words, those instead. It was those is suddenly being used. It’s a plural word, and so, Really, a man with a whole boatload of wives can qualify for those. And that wording is in there. And why did, why did that need to change? You know, they’re purposeful, I’m sure in these changes. They don’t just go, Oops, we made a mistake. They changed it. Why did they change that from a single man to a single woman? And suddenly it’s those is in there.
[1:02:03] Michelle: Are you seeing um Like potential openings being built in for polygamy. I mean, I guess
[1:02:10] Kathy Bence: I don’t know. I don’t know. We don’t get to know because nobody tells us we’re all supposed to be inspired about this and maybe I’m inspired. I don’t know. OK, OK. Anyway, then there was another change that he pointed out, and that is with the law of chastity. It used to be that it would say legally and lawfully wedded. What did it say? Um, just legally and lawfully wedded, period. But now it adds on their legally and lawfully wedded according to God’s law. And so if it is the god of section 132, he demands polygamy. That’s that God demands that we all be polygamists, and if you don’t obey this, you are destroyed. And so it’s troubling that it would be. God’s law. I mean, I hate to say this because, because that’s not the God I worship, the 13,
[1:03:02] Michelle: God’s
[1:03:03] Kathy Bence: law should be,
[1:03:04] Michelle: yeah, God’s law should be a beautiful thing. And the fact that we’re having to be worried about it because of how they have perverted God’s law in our.
[1:03:13] Kathy Bence: Yeah, yeah. So, and, and that particular thing, um, could be because of gay marriage, because gay marriage had happened, so maybe that’s it. I don’t know. But, um, But it’s interesting that it happened at the same time these other two changes happened. So, anyway. So that, that just kind of made it interesting. And then I went back to the temple in 2024. I explained on my videos why I went back because I really was not going to go back and I ended up going back. And
[1:03:43] Michelle: those same so upsetting to you. You were going to go back because.
[1:03:46] Kathy Bence: I was not gonna go back. But then I had these women from my mission come see me and they wanted to go to the temple. And I, I went, how am I going to explain to them in my lousy Spanish? And I don’t want to disappoint them anyway. So I just, I went. But I heard all those same problem areas. They’re all there. That, that has not been changed. Yeah, there’s all these changes, but those areas are all there, and I was paying attention. So,
[1:04:11] Michelle: yeah, well, and the reason God’s law is so concerning, if you look at Section 132, it talks a lot about the law. I, I recognize law more in one section 3 in section 132 than in most other scripture. Like I just, I just brought it up, um, starting with verse 3, for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same. verse 5, for all who will receive a blessing in my hand, must abide the law which was appointed, verse 6, he and must. And shall abide the law or he shall be damned, right? And then verse 7, barely I say unto you, these are the conditions of this law. I mean, it just goes on and on and on talking about the law. And so it’s, um, concerning if they are using coded language to. To sort of start building a foundation for polygamy into the temple again. Wow.
[1:05:05] Kathy Bence: I don’t know. I, I have no idea, but that was just, that’s something I share in my last video, and I just felt like I should and I did.
[1:05:13] Michelle: So. Well, and, and verse 12 is the most concerning. Um, I am the Lord thy God, and I give unto the, I have given to you this commandment that no man shall come unto the Father but by me or by my word, which is my law, sayeth the Lord, right? God’s law, just where it’s in 132 everywhere. That’s really interesting. OK, now I’m really curious.
[1:05:32] Kathy Bence: Yeah, yeah. All right. I don’t know. OK, well, um, let’s see. I think I have just one more slide.
[1:05:39] Michelle: Let me add it back.
[1:05:41] Kathy Bence: This, this is just kind of a summary of what I got out of reading that Michael, um, Matthews website, and that is the thing that makes sense to me from 132. And if I’m wrong, hallelujah, I’ll be so thrilled, but I don’t think I am, I don’t think he is. I think this is what 132 is telling us. It’s just Asking how do we justify many wives and concubines, which is polygamy, right? And it’s so funny that concubines are still in there. Oh my gosh, what, what in the world does that mean? Um, it’s
[1:06:10] Michelle: the doctrine of many wives and concubines. I, I, I go crazy and I keep trying to say, Joseph Smith was only denying spiritual wifery because he was just practicing and supporting celestial plural marriage. Well, then you need to tell God what it’s called, because apparently God doesn’t know what’s called celestial plural marriage, because God, if I’m, I’m this false God, right? They’re, they’re speaking for God falsely. They’re taking in the name of their false God is. Revealing the doctrine of having many wives and concubines. That is what it is called in the supposed revelation. So anyway, it’s, it’s a big, like, the doctrine of, well, the doctrine and practice of having many wives and concubines, but it’s called a doctrine in the supposed revelation, which would mean by God, that is God’s title for it. And I always say, please search the Book of Mormon for many wives and concubines, that exact phrase, go ahead and look it up every time. And then tell me who this God is that you are getting revelation from.
[1:07:08] Kathy Bence: Oh yeah, yeah. Well, OK, so how do we justify it? We justify it through the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. And that’s what I think the answer is that’s given in section 132. And then if you want to know the details of it, you read all of section 132, and then you get the details of how this is justified and in the new and Everlasting Covenant. And so then it just seems to me what what’s the results? Well, the results seem to be that now for some reason, women are anointed in the new and everlasting covenant in the temple. And so I just, I have a problem with this for obvious reasons, because I, I want this to be explained to me. I want this to be disclosed to me. I think that we have a right to understand if we’re signing up for eternal polygamy. Now that the irony of this is that I don’t believe that. So it doesn’t matter if they’re saying I’m signing up for it, I don’t believe it. But there’s women who go to the temple and they believe everything that’s being said there, and they think it’s the most sacred space. And yet, this is what is being snuck in to the temple. They should be told this in clear language, if that’s what it is. And if it isn’t, then, then please let us know how it isn’t. So that’s just my, my take on this.
[1:08:26] Michelle: OK, that is so interesting, and what I’m kind of taking from it is that like, This topic is more important than many of us realize. Like, it’s interesting that we talked at the beginning about the people posing as members of the church in order to proselytize polygamy and, and bring converts, right? And then we go all the way to the end of where it appears that it is possible that there is a structure to support polygamy being reintroduced into the temple, kind of secretly embedded, possibly. Yeah, like, well you, I mean, I mean, I’ve, you know, I, I’ve, anyway, it’s, it’s really interesting cause I haven’t been catching it cause I’ve not been keeping up on the temple like I used to. I haven’t been attending as frequently and And I’m more just having my experiences rather than listening carefully to, um, to catch changes. And so, so I guess what it is, like each of us individually, I think that’s what matters. It’s, you know, we don’t have power over what the church does. So it’s just each of us individually repent. finding truth, asking God what, what we should do and what our path is, right? But, um, so, so we don’t need to be like, um, well, I guess I’m just saying that I’m thinking through this and just talking to all of us. We’re having a conversation with the whole with the whole audience, right? And so, so yeah, it’s not, um, you know, like I, but I do think that. Our efforts are important. It’s kind of what I’m like, oh my gosh. When I started this podcast, I thought it was so dumb. I, I really was like, why am I doing this? And now it’s like, oh wow, look at all of the reasons that this has to be done. People have to be helped to understand this, so that more people will even discern it like you did, so that they can’t sneak stuff in. And have it just kind of go over our heads. Right,
[1:10:20] Kathy Bence: right. Well, yeah, I mean, I, I, I, I don’t know. I don’t really know what to do with it, but I think it’s an, I think it’s an evil. I’ve made that clear in my 4 videos. To me it’s an evil, and some people think it’s the most important thing God ever gave to mankind. But to me it’s evil, and I don’t think it should be snuck by me. I think it should be out in the open. And so that’s why I bring up that I’m a convert, even though I certainly don’t feel like a convert anymore, but it should be out in the open. If we, we, we should not be ashamed of the gospel of Jesus. Christ, if this is a huge part of the gospel of Jesus Christ, let us know this. Don’t, don’t hide this from us. Now, what I will do with that, I, I’m not gonna say, I, I’m not gonna be thrilled if that is there, if it’s the church’s version and I don’t know what I do with that, but I’m just saying, be, be open with it.
[1:11:16] Michelle: It’s, I guess you are really sensitive to this because this feels to you like the second time it’s been snapped past you, right? And, and just like I asked at the beginning, what would you have done? And you’re like, I don’t know what I would have done, right? We can’t know until we get the inspiration in the moment. We need it, right? To know what’s happening. But I love what you’re saying of like, let’s, let’s be upfront. Let’s be honest. Let’s talk about this. Teach us, like, like, trust us to have, I mean, that, that’s so important. Consent is so important. We can’t be. Brought into covenants that means something different than what we think we are agreeing to. And so, OK. OK. I’m glad that you, I’m glad you brought this up, and I hope it doesn’t make people uncomfortable, but it is good to pay attention to. There have been many changes in the temple throughout time. There have been many things that um make different people uncomfortable in the temple and and I I think it’s OK to talk about it. I think it’s OK to say oh I’m really glad that change was made or oh I’m really concerned about that change, right? I think that we, we, we kind of have the obligation. I think that’s how we help sustain our leaders, you know, I’ve said that’s part of the definition of sustain is actually think about. And sometimes give feedback, right? Or at least discuss how, how it looks to us.
[1:12:31] Kathy Bence: Well, and I think going back to my first slide that the blacks and the priesthood changed, it, you know, my hope, my, my first hope is that they would be honest with us and tell us what all of this means. I, I, if I’m, if you stop. They’ve changed their story. It used to be, yeah, you got 132 said, you’ve got to be a polygamist to get to the highest kingdom. Now, they say, no, not everybody does. Which I bring up in my videos. That, that’s such a creepy thing to say. So we as sister wives all look around and go, I hope she gets it cause I don’t want it. Uh, it’s just not, there’s just this unchristian thing of hoping this horrible fate does not befall on me and befalls on somebody else, cause I don’t want it. And, uh, so I think we’ve got to be open about what this is. They should tell us what this is, and especially if it’s in the temple. But then, of course, what I think should happen is this was never part of God. And so we need to repent of this, and then it won’t be in the temple anymore. That will be gone from there. So,
[1:13:35] Michelle: I just had a thought, and I don’t know if it’s, if it’s a good thought or not, you know, but, but I, it just occurred to me that I really think that we tend to kind of talk about they, like the church leaders, like they’re a monolith and they’re all on the same page and they’re all doing something, right? And I just don’t think that’s how it works. So what I’m wondering is if, like, what kind of occurred to me is if there are people. Trying to do different things, different leaders that are, you know, and maybe even if we don’t know exactly who’s who or who’s what, maybe what we could do is just redouble our efforts of praying for our leaders who are seeing the truth of this and you know like like I would imagine if I were in a leadership position in the general. You know, in general leadership, whether in relief society or if I were like in an apostle or 70 and I was aware of these things and saw these changes being made, I would be very concerned and very um right and, and, and, and so I think that’s, I don’t know, that’s one of the things I’m taking from. This is, oh, I really want to redouble my efforts of praying for our leaders who I, I do have to believe that some of our leaders see this, and some of our other leaders maybe see it a different way, right? And so that’s my hope is that there are leaders who, who see the truth of polygamy. Maybe they have a lot of insights that I don’t have, right? That we don’t have, but that are at least seeing at least what we see and and could teach this and could. Um, help, help bring us more in alignment with what the new and everlasting covenant actually is. So anyway, that’s what I’m gonna do is just start praying even more for those leaders because I know a lot of people just think, oh, we just have to separate ourselves from the church. And if that’s people’s journey, that’s their journey. It’s not mine. I tend to think that if the church changes, that helps a lot more people come to truth than just me leaving the church does, you know? And I don’t have power over that, but it, but. I always say that, um, prayer of a righteous man availeth much, right? I like that scripture. So I think more a righteous woman. So maybe that’s, that’s one thing I’m going to do as well as keep trying to hope that more and more people awaken. What are your thoughts? What do you?
[1:15:47] Kathy Bence: Well, I, I’m just grateful, Michelle, for you and so many others, um, who are bringing this out. And I think Karen in her video pointed it out. The pressure helps people to be aware. When they see that people have woken up about something, well, then they’ve got to wake up too, because I, I do think, just like me telling blacks, I’m sorry, you’re inferior and you don’t get to go to the place I get to go to, you know, that, that was horrible that I did that. And, and I had to wake up and realize how horrible that was. And, and so they need to wake up and see that this is Hurting. There’s harm around this. This is not a good thing. God does not command harmful things. It just on so many levels, this is not right. And, and then I’m not even bringing in all the history that you’re exposing. Um, so I think, yeah, nothing good will result, and I am grateful for you and so many that are really digging deep and letting us see things that, you know, couldn’t be seen there all, all that time that I was ticked off. At God, because there was no internet to let me see that there was another viewpoint. I was just assuming what I was told was right. And now the internet is there and we, we all can see this, and whoever makes the decisions, I don’t know, but wherever these decisions are coming from. They’re becoming more and more obvious that it is time to make this change, just like other changes have been made.
[1:17:21] Michelle: So I love that because I just had this visual again of like going to the temple. It’s kind of like that ice cream sundae and trying to eat around that big bug in the middle, right? That’s kind of the position that we’re being put in. And so it’s like, how about just take the bug out? That’s great. Can you just take this.
[1:17:39] Kathy Bence: Yeah, get rid of that. Cockroach, that’s my vote.
[1:17:43] Michelle: That’s my that’s the rallying cry. No more Cathy, I appreciate everything you’ve been doing. Thanks for coming and talking to me.
[1:17:50] Kathy Bence: Thank you so much for letting me do this. This was fun.
[1:17:54] Michelle: Yeah, I appreciate it. And the videos will be linked below. They’re great. I recommend everyone watching. We’re a little shorter. This is a little bit of a shorter interview today, which is great. And so you have time to go watch those. We will see you next time. I want to again thank Kathy for coming and talking to me and spending this time. I love that so many people are involved in this topic so many voices are coming forward, so many different insights. It is so valuable and important as we all find our way through these difficult issues, but I appreciate that we are able to engage and have intelligent, worthwhile conversations and thank you all for joining us. I’ll see you next time.
