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[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon polygamy. I’m excited to bring you this conversation I was able to have with Megan Farner about her new book, Consider Yourself as Eve. This is another episode about the temple and looking for connections and meanings and insights that maybe we haven’t considered before. I hope that people even who don’t see much value. The temple. Well, consider tuning into this because I think there are some insights that that you might want to hear. I also found a source that I’m going to share that, um, ties Joseph Smith to the temple, a source that I hadn’t seen before. So I’m very excited to share that with you. I want to say that I, I think Megan in some ways is in a little bit of a similar space to where I am, where she’s kind of in the middle ground. potentially taking heat from all sides. So I hope that people will not hear her in a way to see how she’s different, but I hear her in a way to see how she is the same, right? How we can share perspectives on what we can gain. I think she has some beautiful and profound insights that I was happy to be able to share. So thank you for tuning in, and I hope you find this conversation valuable. Welcome to this conversation. I am excited to be here with Megan Farner, who I have to appreciate, Megan, for being persistent and making sure I, um, stayed on the ball because I get so busy that it’s hard for me to always follow up. So Megan reached out a couple of times, um, asking if we could have a conversation, and I was really looking forward to it. So I know I’ve been on Megan’s. a little while ago and we had a really good conversation and I, I really appreciate the work that Megan does and I’m excited to have her here and to talk to us about some more insight that she sees in temples and particularly I think kind of women’s, um, place in the temple. I don’t want to, I hate saying, but, but, you know, like. Where we as women experience how we experience the temple and where we find ourselves in the temple and where we find meaning for us as women, if I am getting that right. So I want to welcome you here, Megan, and I wonder if you would first, um, just tell us about your book, because, because I think that’s really exciting. And then tell us a little bit about yourself, if you don’t mind.
[02:21] Meghan Farner: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much, Michelle, for letting me come on and share this message. I hope that it’ll be beneficial to your listeners. Um, it’s something that I feel passionate about. So my book is called Consider Yourself as Eve, and it is a guide to spiritual development for women and the men.
[02:37] Michelle: Again. Oh, I love that. And it’s a beautiful cover. It’s just so beautiful. Let us see it again. So that’s consider yourself as Eve. I love it. OK.
[02:46] Meghan Farner: The artwork is by Rose Dadah. I found the painting and I was like, this is so perfect. I just love it. It’s called Eve in Winter. And to me, it just really spoke to me because even winter is outside of the garden, right? She’s in the loan and jury world and it’s cold and it’s icky. And it’s not fun, but she has this look on her face of curiosity and of being fully human, fully embodied. And I think that for me, it’s just very relatable. I can relate to this Eve because that’s where I am right now. And that is kind of an underlying theme of the whole book. So the idea behind the book is that we look at the temple template. Temple and template come from the same root word in Latin templum. And so I think that that’s a really helpful way to look at the temple as that it is this pattern. It’s trying to teach us a pattern for living. Um, I have come to really appreciate the temple as a kind of mystery school. Uh, which I think goes along with some of the mysticism that Joseph Smith was that he, uh, really was akin to in his day. Um, and that’s a, that’s a topic we can go into in a little bit more depth. But basically, I take the ordinances of the Temple Endowment that we know are presented symbolically, and I ask the question, what is the lived reality of the symbolism? Mm, right. OK. And as we dig into that, we begin to see that there is a foreordained pattern of spiritual development in the same way that we physically develop, there are milestones, right? And these ordinances, when they are lived in our everyday life, represent spiritual milestones to us in our journey. Um, and then, of course, one of the things that I really zero in on is how is this journey different for women than it is for men. And we see symbolic shadows of that in the temple. Obviously in our everyday life we experience it, but in a lot of ways, it’s just our paradigm. And so we don’t really zoom in and say, how does living the gospel actually look different for me as a woman than it does for my husband? How does it, why is it important for me? To connect with my feminine, with, with my feminine spirit, with my femininity. Why is it important for my husband to connect with his masculinity? How is that important for our marriage? So we’re exploring those themes and obviously looking at the woman’s experience our experience as women, um, and applying that to the temple template and the lived ordinances that we experience in our life, hopefully.
[05:16] Michelle: Oh, OK, there’s so much there. So I love, um, the, the, my, my years, decades of navigating the temple, right? And, and that is really where I came to is exactly what you described. I love the connection between temple and template. I think that’s very meaningful. But that these are symbolic representations of actual events and it’s the actual events that have the power in our lives, right? They connect us to God and give us the blessings and this is merely a symbolic road map to show us what we are trying, what we are seeking, right? And um and so I, I think that we’re saying the same thing and I am very um curious to hear. I, I for a long time I’ve been in this place also kind of. Talking about the template of saying, I am not interested in having arguments with people about whether or not there was a literal Adam or Eve. I tend to, I’m really excited to meet Eve. So, do you know, like, like, Eve feels like a soul sister. But at the same time, I’m like, oh, even, the reason I’m not Adam and Eve are not important because of what they tell us about them. They’re important because of what they tell us about us. So that was part of what I was excited about just from the title of Your book. It’s such beautiful wording directly from the temple and the meaningful part of the temple. We have the Adam and Eve story repeatedly in our scriptures and in our temple because it’s the everyman story, right? It’s not, it’s not to teach us about Adam and Eve. It’s to teach us about ourselves and our journey that I think we, um, repeat throughout our lives. We, it’s kind of a constant, like, we’re doing great, we have a fall, we learn, we. And we are doing, you know, it’s kind of a pattern that we also see in Isaiah. So anyway, that’s why I like I really resonate with these ideas just from the outset because I think that is the meaning and the purpose when we really, um, really get down to it. I know that I know that some people in my audience, I, I know many of us are navigating questions about temples and, you know, I’ve, I’ve been in this like, what are they? What are they for? is there good or bad in them? What, you know. And this is a lot of the good that I found in them over my decades of attending was this, oh, I am Eve, it’s telling me about me it’s this is my life journey and these are the things that I am. Um, I, I don’t want to use the word accomplished, but these are the things that I am trying to bring into actuality in my life as I journey my life with God. So are we kind of on the same page?
[07:40] Meghan Farner: Yes. OK. Absolutely. I want to say just a couple of things. I take very little credit for this book. Honestly, like the title, that was revelation. Like, it came to me. It wasn’t something that I spent a lot of time pondering or thinking about. I woke up at, at the end of April this year, at 3 o’clock in the morning, 2 or 3 o’clock in the morning, and I got out of bed and I just started journaling, writing, and this outline for the whole book came out. And it was just God’s way of saying like, this is exactly what I want you to talk about. I want you to talk about these things. And almost everything. Ended up in the book and ended up in the order that it came to me. There were a couple of things that I felt impressed to take out or modify, but for the most part, like that first outline was really what I stuck to. And so I, I see this book as revelation. I think that the message of it is much bigger than me. I go back and read parts of it because I don’t remember what I wrote, like, in, in certain sections. And so,
[08:34] Michelle: I really also, isn’t that the best to just like be given a book like, thank you,
[08:40] Meghan Farner: right? Well, and I learned so much through the process of writing it. Like, these were not pre-existing ideas that I just had in my mind and like, I’m not special. It’s not like I knew this, but at the same time, it was such a blessing to be a vessel and like to be a channel that God could deliver this message. And, and I hope to share it with many people because I do think That the view that it presents on the temple and the view that it presents on women are so healing. Like they’re so deeply healing. Um, I totally understand the struggle that so many people have had with the temple, um, and continue to have. And there’s deep hurt there and there’s deep trauma. And it’s not my job, nor do I feel responsible to try to change anyone’s mind. Like, I’m not coming. on here to convince you, if you’ve already felt impressed and already have determined that the temple is not for you, great. Like, I’m not here to change your mind. What I do hope is that if you have any lingering hurt, especially as a woman, Because of your experience in the temple and because of the ideas that you’ve had about the temple growing up, I hope that we can present a view that helps put some of those things to rest, where you can know whether or not you feel like the temple is something that is going to be A part of your worship in the future. At least you can know maybe a different perspective about God and Joseph Smith and what the temple represents that can be very deeply healing and, and bring peace. And I believe that God wants us all to have that.
[10:10] Michelle: Well, I really appreciate that. Thank you for speaking that because I do know that a lot of my audience is very, I, well, it’s not my audience. I know that a lot of people who, um, sometimes tune into my podcast but have already been in these spaces tend to have strong feelings about the temple. Do you care if we just take a minute? Because, um, I do feel some, um, I guess obligation, responsibility. I feel I, I did my episodes on the temple, which was my journey and what I was learning and I and I don’t regret doing them. I think that they’re valuable. And that’s valuable information. I do, however, want to keep, um, I don’t think the story is finished, right? I don’t think one investigation, um, finished that story. And so as I continue to share sources and share insights, I want to, I feel the obligation since I presented that information to keep presenting information. And so, so I first wanna share one insight up to a, um, challenge I hear often and then I want to, um, share a, a, a document that I found that. Gave me, I was like, Oh, I wish I had seen this before. I’m I’m glad I’m seeing it now because it is, I just, I just want the truth. I don’t ever want to be attached to an idea. I like the more information I find, the better. So, yes, yeah. So, so, and my ongoing journey with the temple, you know, like I, I have shared before that there have been times that I felt like, oh, am I not supposed to go? Is it, is there darkness there? But then, but then I’ve been called to go and I’ve been shown so much light there. So I know that one challenge that people, I’ve heard them. Talk, I’ve heard different people talk about is the, um, I hope I’m OK to talk about this. It’s nothing that we covenant not to talk about. So it’s always a funny line, right? But, but the aprons, I’ve heard people talk about the fact that Lucifer tells us what to do with the aprons, right? Tells us to put the aprons on, and people, um, like, like, take issue with the fact that we as the company and the temple are following the instructions of Lucifer. And they see real meaning into that. And, and I really, I was like, I, I don’t know. I, I, that didn’t, um, strike me the same way it strikes some people. I’m like, there’s more to that. And so I just want to share how, how I had dealt with that before. I heard that challenge because I’ve never spoken to this. But I do think that it’s interesting because for me, the, the apron, obviously, I, I did deep symbolic work into figs and fig trees, and they are amazing symbols, and I don’t want to take anything from you. So forgive me if I go into this for a minute. No, please do. The fig is, if you look in the inside of a fig, it is so amazing. It is totally a womb in my mind. And the only way a fig is fertilized is a little wasp that has a little stinger that goes right in the bottom, right into like the cervix and, and fertilizes that fig to become this beautiful fruit. You know, it’s this amazing symbolic representation of fertility, right? And, and, and of procreation, procreative power. And I think it is very, um, You know that the natural man is an enemy to God. So it’s very appropriate that we would have temptation in that area, maybe more than any other. And so it seems like the adversary saying, hey, I’m gonna try and control your, um, all your ideas about procreation, right? In this world. But then what, so, so, so it is the adversary that’s like, hey, these systems are turning on, be tempted, right? And I think again, this every man journey that we go through, but then we have God come. And say, hey, do you know what? That, like, I don’t think that, I don’t think the apron comes from Lucifer. Lucifer doesn’t give us the apron, doesn’t give us the desires and the power. He just tries to tell us what to do with them, right? But then we have the Lord come and say, Hey, do you see these robes of the holy priesthood? Put those on underneath. And then put the procreative power on top of those, and then it’s in proper order and all appetites and powers are within the bounds that God has prescribed, right? So I actually see that deep symbolism in that too. I don’t see that we are following. Do you know what I mean? I don’t see realizing that we are following the orders of Lucifer in the temple that has never resonated with me. I see it as Lucifer trying to get a, to say, I’m gonna be, I’m the boss of you. I’m gonna tell you how to use this power, which is what the natural. does, we see that society is falling back into that, unfortunately, in my opinion. And but if we will take that same power and undergird it with covenants, with understanding of God, with priesthood power, if we want to say that, right, to use it in this godly way. Anyway, I wanted to give voice to that because that’s one challenge that I’ve heard people say, I don’t know if you have any response before.
[14:38] Meghan Farner: I think that that’s beautiful, and I think that I’ve come to a lot of the same understanding. I do think that the fig leaves initially when they’re put on are a symbol of the natural man. And I need to find my citation, but I think that there were iterations of the endowment or or versions of the garden story where Adam is actually the one who initiates the idea of making fig leaves and putting them on. So I need to find that, don’t like take that with a grain of salt. I might be wrong on that. Um, but the other thing, I love this idea of what you’re presenting, of how the Lord can repurpose and reorder the things so that they are in their proper order. Um, that’s something that I’ve learned quite a bit about the process of spiritual development, is that it’s really a process of integration. And that’s a little bit contrary to the way that we’re raised. Like, there’s, there’s kind of this almost mosaic attitude of like, If you do something bad, like you just have to cut it off, you just have to stop, like you just need to cut that bad part out of yourself and throw it away, and like, don’t pick it up again. And the more that I’ve learned and working with the Lord and how the Lord works with me to face the parts of myself that are not sanctified yet. It’s not really like that. Like, it’s very loving and gentle, and there is a recognition of like, Hey, you have some pain here. You have a wound that I haven’t had access yet to heal. Will you give me access to that? And we’re gonna love that part of you back into yourself so that you can become whole. And there’s, there’s this continuing process of us gaining more and more integration. Between us and God, between our bodies and our spirits, and between ourselves and our spouse. And there’s this wholeness that we’re working on creating, and that doesn’t come by getting rid of things that otherwise could have value, right? And so, I think that that’s something to think about maybe with the temple too, you know, this question that you brought up is, is the temple good? Is it bad? Yes. Like the answer is yes. Like there are elements of both. And I think that for me personally, I have seen the most growth as I have chosen to adopt the good wherever I find it, and leave out the bad wherever I find it. And so I think that this is actually just a really beautiful symbol of that integration that God wants to help us with. It’s not about cutting, cutting off the fig trees or the fig leaves because they Originally symbolized the natural man. It’s about, yes, you have a, you have flesh, you have a fallen nature, but let’s love that into a state of integration and wholeness and repurpose it, reorder it in the pattern of God, and it will be a benefit to you. The idea of remissioning, giving a new mission. Right? But these things can be helpful when they are put in their proper order.
[17:29] Michelle: Mhm. I like that. I like that. Yeah. OK. OK. I also, I want to respond to what you were talking about the, um, well, I kind of, I think it’s, it’s speaking to the same thing. I talk about like the twofold purpose and power of the atonement as I have experienced it, where I think it, the atonement serves first to provide. forgiveness for our, our weaknesses that we struggle with while they still serve us. I see our weaknesses and our temptations, our, our proneness to sin in whatever way we, we use that word, you know, like, like, whatever it is that we do that we feel like we shouldn’t do, right? Like, while we are still struggling with that, um, with our journey and that weakness with that error, the atonement provides the way for us to Be forgiven, right? Until we get the enabling of power of the atonement, with that weakness no longer serves us and the Lord heals us. Right? Like the example that I sometimes share, and, and it’s a little embarrassing, but, um, but I was like, massive sugar addict for most of my life. Huge sugar addict. And Clara, let’s see, it was when I was pregnant with my now 16 year old. I had this like strong impression that I needed to stop eating sugar. And like, like from the Lord, I’m not saying that this is a do not think I am telling everybody sugar is of the devil.
[18:49] Meghan Farner: That’ll be the most controversial thing you’ve ever said sugar,
[18:55] Michelle: put it on, yeah, no I’m not saying that at all. I am, my answer from the Lord was that I needed to stop eating sugar. And I failed multiple times every single day. I either didn’t remember or I was like, I just have to, you know, and, and I would repent constantly till I felt completely worthless. Like, Lord, how can you even stand me? I don’t, do I even mean it if I say I’m sorry, because I just keep doing it, you know? And, um, and I turned immediately to in the Book of Mormon, as many times as my Um, people repent that many times. Well, I forgive them. You know, I was always given that message. And it actually took years, years until I was led on a course, shown the way, you know, and it was hard, but, but I, I was empowered to overcome that. What, what to me felt like an addiction. It was something I felt like I shouldn’t do, didn’t want to do, and kept doing multiple times a day, you know. And, um, and so that was a, a, a place where I was like, Oh my goodness, the Lord will keep forgiving me as many times as I repent, no matter how many times I fail at this thing that I’m being told to do. The atonement is there to keep providing forgiveness for my weakness. And then the atonement is there to empower me when that challenge no longer served me and to give me the strength to overcome that weakness. I love that. For me, when I hear the savior say to the woman taking in adultery, um, go sin no more, right? Go thy way and sin no more. I, I’ll, I’ll listen to this after and go like, oh my gosh, you quoted that wrong. But, um, I hear that in the same way that I hear him say to the man, arise, take up thy bed and walk. I hear that as healing and right? and putting her together rather than saying, now, don’t do that bad thing anymore, right?
[20:40] Meghan Farner: Yeah, that’s beautiful. And I, I 100% resonate with that. I think that the process of repentance, it’s much more about a process of healing. It’s about recognizing the things in us that are wounded, that are hurt, usually from our childhood, usually they’re subconscious things that we’re not even. They’re, you know, from pre-marginal existence. Um, there’s all these things, and that’s what God really wants to heal us from, are those things that we’re not even really consciously aware of. So it’s very deep work. But, um, I love God,
[21:16] Michelle: God also wants to heal us from our judgment, our tendency to judge one another and ourselves. That’s a big part of it too, recognizing. Like, like learning what really is from God, what God really wants you to do in this moment rather than just your judgments of yourself,
[21:32] Meghan Farner: and that idea of forgiveness that you were talking about too, like I’m, I’m so glad you mentioned that because I think it’s important for us to know that God has forgiven us before we’ve asked. For forgiveness, and God forgives us before we forgive ourselves. Almost all of the time, right? And so that is the degree of forgiveness that God has towards us. That’s the degree of forgiveness that we are trying to cultivate towards ourselves and others. And that is that judgment piece of removing that and saying, you know what? I’m, I’m, this is the journey of a lifetime, and this is why we need to follow this temple template, because it is the journey of becoming justified and then being sanctified. What we’re talking about, this deep soul repentance is really that sanctification process, and that needs to come in order too. Um, justification comes first, and so that’s a conversation that we can talk about as well. Um, but I, I wanted to zero in for just a moment on this idea of atonement and where we see. What you’re talking about, the enabling power of the atonement in the temple. I know that you had a little bit of a conversation with my friend Corey Jensen, who’s wonderful. I hope everyone went and bought his books because they are really so thoughtful. He’s one of the most Christ-like people that I know. Like, he’s just amazing, and he’ll be really mad that I’m talking about him right now. Because he so does not want the spotlight. But, you know, you had that discussion. I know that he talked a little bit about some of the places that we see the atonement in the temple. And there’s another place that I see it, and I wanted to share it because I think that it is so overlooked that we’re actually removing it little by little because we just don’t really understand what it is. And that is the tokens. Hm, so in the endowment ceremony,
[23:16] Michelle: can
[23:16] Meghan Farner: I
[23:17] Michelle: just tell you, I, I, I, I, I really want to go here and I’m I’m sorry we’re taking so much time, but I know for the people that might be listening and be skeptical of the whole thing and think Joseph Smith wasn’t. Part of it and you know that it’s just Masonic. I wanna share this one source. no, no, no, and then I wanna go right there and I’m sorry I’ve taken so long but I wanna show this because this was meaningful to me. So this is a a document because everyone knows I get into the documents too much, but this is the Warsaw signal and it was William Smith wrote this in 1845. Just the year after Joseph died, and it’s a proclamation. Let me see if I can blow it up a little bit. I’m gonna have to move around. A proclamation you can see right there written by William Smith, and it’s the entire first page of this newspaper. And, um, I use this. I’ll, I’ll use this in my episode. I guess it’ll probably play before this one. So I talk about this in my episode on, um, on WW Blair’s Journal and talking about the ordination of Joseph Smith the 3rd, and, and just to go into those sources, but I wanted to go right down here at the bottom. And um and it says, um, he’s talking about Brigham Young’s claims to authority, and this isn’t said, none of this is said to To fight against the church, I explained it in that episode, but this source was meaningful to me because of what it tells us about Joseph Smith and the temple. They are keys which Joseph never conferred on Brigham Young, nor was power ever given to him to lead the church in his place as a successor. But this is, um, let’s see, he’s saying that Joseph Smith III, that’s not the part. Here it is. I was present with Joseph at the last council that was held previous to the 12 and others going on their electioneering campaign to the east and various other parts of the United States. So just before Joseph Smith was um running for president and sending people on missions to help with that effort. He says it was at this time that I received my initiation into the highest priesthood lodge, was washed and anointed and clad with the sastradotal, and then he goes, I have to go clear up here cause I blew it way up. Um, but he talks about the sastradotal robes and the, um, the priesthood lodge, and they’re kind of combining words. But let me get up here. Sorry, I’m taking so long. Satradontal robe of pure white and ordained to be priest and king and invested with all the power that any man on earth ever did possess, power entitling me to preach the gospel to bind up the kingdom of God on earth among all nations and people of every tongue. And in consequence of these endowments and ordination received from under the hand of Joseph, I hold as much power as and as many keys to seal and bind on earth as can possibly belong to Brigham Young. This power was conferred equally on all the 12 and not therefore bestowed on one. And so anyway, the reason I wanted to bring that up again wasn’t to talk about the succession crisis, but was that for me really was another source that tied Joseph Smith to the temple, right? when some, so many of the sources look like they don’t connect him to the temple. And so I want to share these sources as well because I think we need to have the whole picture. We can’t just pick and choose the sources that tell the story that we. Think we want told. And, and when I did my temple episode, people did tell me I was missing some sources. So I’ve been hap I was happy to come across this one. So I just wanted to share that so people so that hopefully people who think, Joseph Smith had nothing to do with the temple can open their minds a little bit and think, oh, maybe there is something that Joseph Smith, you know, you know, some, um, I have heard some people say something that resonates with. Me that Joseph Smith saw Freemasonry also as something that was in a corrupted form that needed to be restored to its higher form. And maybe that’s part of what was brought into the temple. And I will say we do also know that Brigham Young made huge changes to the temple, brought in polygamy, brought in other false doctrines that Joseph didn’t see value with. I, I would argue. But so I want Thank you for letting me share that just so that people who are feeling really cynical about Joseph having anything to do with the temple can look this up and see how they interpret it, because I think there’s something that we should pay attention to there. So now, talk to us about
[27:20] Meghan Farner: tokens. No, yeah, well, before I do, I just want to say like, I appreciate that. I appreciate you sharing that source. I think there is more to the story. Um, I think it’s clouded for a reason. Um, and all the veils are going to be parted. So we’re getting more and more clarity on these things, and I think it’s important that we do remain soft-hearted and open minded to be able to receive those truths and not get stuck in one place. For me personally, and with what I share in the book, I think that when we look at the temple as a template, and when we look at the higher patterns that we also are given by God in so many different ways, um, we begin to see that there’s 2. Much inspiration in the temple for it to have come from anyone other than Joseph Smith. That’s my personal view. That’s my personal opinion. I don’t have sources to, to back that up necessarily. But again, I hope that if reading my book, I think it’ll pull out, again, these ideas of like, oh, this was meant to be a school. This was meant to be teaching us how to re-enter the presence of God. I know Corey talked about that a little bit, that that’s really what Joseph’s goal was. I think he knew his time was short, and so he had to leave the saints something, and it was encoded. It was for those with eyes to see the same that ancient mystery schools have always been that way. They use this deep symbolism. An interesting like teaser, cause we don’t really have time to go through this, but Freemasonry, I think that you’re right. I think Joseph saw the shred the the threads of truth that were still there, and he was pulling on those and reconstructing them, weaving them in a different form. To help bring out the greater truths. Freemasonry actually has some interesting history. When you pull it back to the time of the Templars, there’s actually a really beautiful tradition of the lineage of Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene and the Templars as protecting a bloodline. And so there’s actually deep roots in the divine feminine line through Mary Magdalene through that too. And so I think that Joseph knew way more than we know that he knew.
[29:22] Michelle: Well, and I guess my only plea would be because, uh, and maybe we can, I, I know I’m diverging from what you wanted to talk about and I’m sorry, we’ll get there. I just, it is, I, I want to kind of address some of the, the very valid, um, questions and challenges and concerns that people have because the Book of Mormon is so clear in its denunciation and condemnation of any sort of secret societies, right? So people see these, um, sort of. esoteric societies as the ancient mystery schools, right? We see them as secret societies, and I think really struggle with that. So I, I have some thoughts about that. Do you have any thoughts
[29:58] Meghan Farner: about that? Yeah, I mean, I think that that is the corruption that men, mankind bring into things, right? Like we’re the ones that introduced this idea of exclusivity of, oh, you have to be a part of this school of thought in order to have X, Y, and Z. I don’t think that that’s how God is, and I don’t necessarily feel like that’s what Joseph was trying to do. Um, that’s kind of how mystery schools have ended up, that they, it’s like, oh, you have to have this secret knowledge. Um, but I was reading a book by David Cap, who, um, he has a beautiful kind of reading of the Gospel of Thomas, which is an apocryphal text. And one of the things that he said that really resonated with me is the idea that Um, one of the things that frustrated the Pharisees and the Sadducees about Jesus Christ so much was that he was giving the secrets away. as like the ruling sociopolitical, religious body, like they felt like we have access, we have the secrets, we have the mysteries, and they were upset at him because he was telling the people. And I think that that’s actually a more true pattern is that these mysteries are available to anyone, and Jesus Christ is the one who makes them available to anyone. And we can, and as we’ll talk about, and as we get into in my book, once you begin to see the temple template, you’ll realize that it is universal, and it is accessible outside of the church.
[31:23] Michelle: So, so it’s OK, I actually love that it’s understanding the messages from it that are the efficacious part that are the important part, not necessarily being part of the, um, you know, because people, I’m, I’m just speaking bluntly though it, it is a struggle to make sense of I have to pay such a huge amount, you know, 10% to have as however people interpret that, but, but how we are. taught that as a blanket to have access to divine blessings does seem problematic, right? And so So I like this idea we should
[31:55] Meghan Farner: transition and we can let’s let’s talk about it a little bit more because I feel like people are like, you’re you’re saying all these things and I don’t know what you’re saying. So maybe we can get a little bit deeper and I can talk about what I mean when I talk about this template, and I’ll include the piece about the tokens. Does that sound good? Should we go
[32:10] Michelle: there? Yeah, yeah, and I’m sorry if I’m throwing you off.
[32:12] Meghan Farner: No, no, no, you’re good. This is a great conversation. I’m I’m just happy to talk about these things. So in the endowment ceremony, which is what I focus on, it’s template throughout my book, there are 4 ordinances, and each ordinance has 4 elements associated with it. It has a sign, a name, a law, and a token, and we see that pattern repeating 4 times. This is the idea of that cyclical learning. I love to ponder on the image of a spiral staircase. And each ordinance helps you ascend one more floor of this spiral staircase. So in the temple, we are given the symbolic representation of these ordinances through the four elements that they each have. And the question that I dig into in the book is, what are each of those elements and what do the ordinances look like when you live them? In reality, what is the lived ordinance that the symbolic ordinance is trying to teach us? So, for example, the first ordinance that we participate in symbolically in the temple, we do with Adam and Eve when they’re represented, and it’s as they’re being, as they are leaving the garden, and as they are going down into the lone and dreary world. And in my mind, what I’ve come to understand is that that ordinance is parallel to the lived ordinance of birth. That is when we transition down into this celestial sphere. What are the elements of that? What is the sign? Well, a sign is a physical action that we take, right? So the physical action that is taken is you’re born, right? Like your mother labels, and we can get into the feminine and all in all of this. But your mother labors and delivers you, you participate in that, as the baby is an active participant in the action of being born. That is the sign that we make. When we participate in the lived ornaments. The law that’s associated with that, I actually think is the law of obedience. We came here programmed to say, I will learn the natural laws of this world, and I will be obedient to them, and that will be, that will help me develop physically and it will help me develop spiritually. And we see that in the way that infants come and they are preprogrammed with these reflexes, right? They know how to suck, they know how to root, they know how to curl their toes and blink their eyes. There’s something in us physically that says, I will be obedient to the laws my flesh and my environment are going to teach me. So that I can develop.
[34:49] Michelle: And also, they are now subject to all of the laws of this world, right? Gravity, like, like, like we have no choice but to obedient to natural law. They’re not yet capable of making other choices,
[35:04] Meghan Farner: right? And we, and, and there’s also an implication that we’re going to learn over time how to expand within that law. So, and that has to do with the token, so I’ll come back to that. Um, the name, I don’t really talk about the name too much in my book. I do talk about sacraments. There are sacraments associated with each of these that are physical things we participate in that teach us how to live the law so that eventually we can receive the token. Nursing is an example of a sacrament. My mother receives milk in her breasts to bestow on her child and the connection and all of the things that take place in that. Um, but the name, we can lump that with the law. The idea is if I successfully live this law, I will be growing in my covenant relationship with God. The name is associated with that covenant.
[35:54] Michelle: And we have to also say, birth is also a sacrament. That’s absolutely. And that’s one that Craig. Yeah, like Jesus actually uses that symbolism of that right, because it’s parallel with baptism and yeah,
[36:08] Meghan Farner: so this is a really important point you’re bringing up too. I just want to mention it, but if people read the scriptures and they’re like, I don’t see the temple in the scriptures. I don’t see the temple in the Book of Mormon. What I would encourage you to do is look for the lived ordinances. So what is the language of birth that we see in the scriptures and the symbolism of birth? If we focus on the lived ordinances, we start to see that the scriptures are a commentary on the temple in that they show us what the lived reality of temple symbols actually looks like. So I love that you brought that up. Yes, Jesus talks about birth. He doesn’t talk about ordinance number one in the temple endowment. Because that’s the symbol, but he does talk about birth because that’s the reality.
[36:50] Michelle: And can I touch on one point you made because you said, and I’ve heard other people say this as well, the people that are telling me to look deeper into temples, which I’ve wanted to do. That like you implied, and, and I think there is something here that a lot of people at least believe this, that Joseph, um, was trying to leave something, right? And, and just to be like for me, Joseph for me isn’t, um, isn’t necessarily on a pedestal. I still am, I’m, I, I’m, I’m willing to go, was Joseph right or wrong about all of these things, right? And so it’s not just be if it was Joseph, it’s good. If it wasn’t just like that’s not my view at all. But it is interesting to consider that, um. That if Joseph was a prophet and felt like I need to leave something that and, and maybe masonry served as, OK, this is a template that I can utilize to teach the things that I really want the people to get that they don’t seem to be getting, right? And, and, and leaving them. So we are not saying, and I don’t think you’re saying this, that the temple is like in its perfected form or that it’s not part of this fallen world and for a like in some, in some, I guess you could even say a lower law, like it’s what we have right now. Right? To help us learn these things. But it’s not the end all be all. It’s not like God, um, it’s not like in Zion, we’ll still be going to the temple as we have it now. Right? It’ll be,
[38:11] Meghan Farner: yeah, it’ll be different, right? Especially because the invitation of the temple is to re-enter the presence of the Lord in the flesh. That is the mystery that the temple is trying to teach us in Zion, the My expectation is that everyone has done that. So we will graduate to a new format. And what that’s gonna look like, I have no idea. But I assume that there will be another kind of university, another kind of school where we’ll be learning and we’ll be expanding in our light and knowledge in a new terrestrial sphere.
[38:41] Michelle: Yeah. So I think it’s, I think it’s useful to point that out, that just because it’s not like this, like, like nothing in this world is this perfect celestial version of itself. And we’re doing our best to find God in all of the different aspects we have, right?
[38:55] Meghan Farner: And and if you don’t want to find God here, like, that’s OK. Like you can find God however you feel impressed too. I, I see God here and I think that it’s worth, um, Keeping what we’ve had gaining more as individuals, um, I do think, OK. We’ll come back to
[39:13] Michelle: this. OK. Well, I just think, I think it’s good for us to not have to not judge harshly when, when there’s more to be learned possibly, or that someone else might be seeing it in a different way. Not that I judge harshly, but, you know, we can, we can go, OK, maybe I should, maybe there’s more there than I realized. Maybe it’s for me, maybe it’s not, but maybe there’s more there than I realized.
[39:32] Meghan Farner: I, I’ll just say that I have, I have a friend who is Deeply spiritual, deeply gifted, has an incredible connection with God. She’s a prophetess in the ways that she is. And she’s been really disheartened by some of the changes that have taken place in the temple because she sees things of value that are being removed, things that can teach us, and that kind of goes to this discussion on tokens that I want to have. Um, but she’s asked the Lord, like, can I be done? Like, can I go learn? Can, can I be done in this way? And the Lord has said, if you want to be done with me teaching you from the temple, you can choose to be done. But I still have more that I can teach you here if you want to. And it’s not because it’s perfect, it’s not because, you know, it’s complete, but I think it really does come down to our willingness and our desire to allow the Lord to teach us the ways that he wants to teach us. And again, that doesn’t mean that this is the one and only way for everyone. I don’t think that that’s true. But I do think it’s important to realize that That God can teach you through the temple. And even if you feel like that’s not the way you feel impressed to learn right now, you can respect that maybe other people still do feel like they have things to learn from the temple, even when they have an understanding that it’s not perfect. I know that that’s something that you’ve gotten criticism for as well. That’s like you, you’re still figuring out your journey with the temple. And people were upset at you and you felt like maybe it’s not inspired and then as you’ve seen, like, no, I’m still getting so much from it, people are like, you’re a traitor, why would you go back to that? It’s like, we’re just trying to be open to whatever way God wants to teach us and God can teach us literally however they want to, they being our heavenly parents.
[41:09] Michelle: Yeah, and I should clarify, I don’t, I don’t think I ever said I that it’s not inspired. I think I looked at the history and said there are people that I think
[41:17] Meghan Farner: people read
[41:17] Michelle: that I don’t think I said that.
[41:19] Meghan Farner: So I don’t think, I don’t think you did. Sorry.
[41:22] Michelle: I just want to clarify that. I, I was very careful to not ever, I never want to weaken faith or destroy faith. And so, yeah, it. I was just going, what is the history of this? I’m, I’m very intrigued by the history of it.
[41:35] Meghan Farner: Well, I like my, my, so I have a podcast platform, Latter Day Disciples, and it’s my journey too. And so there are times when people have been like, you said this in this episode 39, and then lately, you’ve been saying this, and it’s like, yeah, I’m learning. Yeah, I’m learning and growing. And so like, I, I totally understand that this is just our journey. We’re just doing it really publicly and there’s a risk to that. So please just like Treat us gently as we’re we’re learning. So just reviewing, we’re talking about the, the first ordinance in the temple, which is the lived ordinance of birth, right? We make a sign by being born and all the things that come with that. We accept the law of obedience, and there is a name, literally a name given to us when we are born. So what is the token? In my book, I talk about tokens and I call them gifts of grace, because that’s really what they are. They are endowments of enabling power. From Jesus Christ that come to us in a recognizable spiritual event. So when we’re born, what is the gift of grace that is bestowed upon everyone who participates in the sign of being born? It’s the light of Christ. Oh,
[42:49] Michelle: OK. OK. OK.
[42:51] Meghan Farner: And women, mothers, are the vessels that help bestow that light of Christ on our children. When we’re weaving them together in our wombs, we’re weaving together spirit, body, and this light together at the same time. So everyone who comes into the world has participated and completed the first ordinance that’s symbolically represented in the temple.
[43:14] Michelle: OK,
[43:14] Meghan Farner: does that make sense? Mhm,
[43:16] Michelle: yeah, that’s really beautiful and I love what I love about this is showing us. The temple is not, uh, what am I, what am I trying to say? The ordinance preexists the temple. The ordinance is there and the temple is a way to explain it and put it in symbolic form. It’s not that we get the ordinance because of the temple. The, like, like, you know, Gwendolyn Wine has also done work on this and what the ordinances actually are, and they are, they happen in our bodies, like they are they are. Things that really can’t be changed. Right?
[43:46] Meghan Farner: They can’t. And in fact, the scriptures say that. So the Book of Moses is a temple text. We see that in the Garden of Eden and account and even beyond that. And I want to say at the end of chapter 6, I might, I might be getting that wrong. But there is a verse later in the book of Moses where the Lord is talking to Abraham or is talking to Adam. And he says these, in essence, I’m not quoting it, these are the ordinances, and this is how they are going to be through the end of the world. And for members of the church, it can be a little bit difficult, right? Because we’re like our ordinances, the administration of them has changed a lot over time, right? And like, we’re not doing things the same way today that Adam and Eve did back in the day, or, or, you know, wherever you want to point your finger, things are different today. So, what I believe God is really talking about is not so much the representation, the symbolic representation of the ordinances, that that will never change. What God is saying is that the lived experience won’t change. Like this is what God has ordained, and it will stay that way. Now that being said, we have found ways to change ordinances. Um, the adversary is very interested in changing the lived ordinances. The and I’m not sure how to like present. Do we want to go in order or do we want to jump around,
[45:03] Michelle: let’s go in order. We’ll go, you go ahead and continue with what you’re doing because, yeah, I think it’s
[45:07] Meghan Farner: when we talk about the third ordinance, remember this conversation and we’ll we’ll kind of get into this from there. OK, so that’s the first ordinance. The second ordinance is, um, in reality, the doctrine of Christ. OK. So, this is symbolically represented by the second ordinance. There was some symbolism with your robe being put on your left shoulder that we had previously. This is when that robe begins to be the the apron begins to be repurposed, right? And remissioned, given a new mission to be for our benefit. This ordinance, the sign is baptism. The law is the law of sacrifice. You will offer unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And when we’ve learned to live that law, eventually we receive the gift of grace, which is the actual reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost. The laying on of hands that we receive at baptism is the invitation that says, learn how to live this law so that you can receive the Holy Ghost. And our leaders have spoken about that. Um, elder Bednar has had some beautiful talks about how It is a priesthood injunction, an invitation for us to learn how to receive the Holy Ghost. And when that happens, for me and for many people that I’ve spoken about this with, there is an identifiable spiritual experience that you have where you are changed. You are, you become a different person because you have encountered Jesus Christ in a very real way. And that is the process of justification, that is salvation.
[46:49] Michelle: So the born born again
[46:50] Meghan Farner: to be born again. And um that is spiritual rebirth. It is justification. It is becoming a son or daughter of Christ. It is having a remission of sins. All of those things are tied to that actual reception of the Holy Ghost through that actual 1 to 1 experience with Jesus Christ. Um, I think that the symbolism of that in the temple has been a little bit harder to see just as administration has changed. I love how it was previously because what would happen, for those of you who haven’t, or, you know, didn’t go to the temple before the last, I don’t know, 5 years or so. Um, what used to happen is that everyone in the company would stand up and a temple worker would come around one by one and actually bestow the token to each individual. And it’s that idea of that symbolism of Jesus Christ comes directly to you. And he gives this gift of grace to you and you receive it. And when you receive it, you know that something has changed, something is different. Maybe you can’t put words to it yet. Um, when I had this experience, I had just barely learned about what a baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost was. And so I didn’t identify it as that, but I knew something was different. I knew I was changed. My whole family knew I was changed. Like, this is much more than like, oh yeah, you’ve been reading a lot of self-improvement books and you’re just like, this is, I was this way, and now I’m completely different and in the middle was Jesus Christ, as it talks about in the chosen.
[48:24] Michelle: And you’re right, it is an individual bestow in in God’s time, in God’s way, right? We seek it, but we’re not in charge of it. But it’s not given. Collectively to a group, right? That’s not, that’s not how it works. And you know, we’ve seen things go back and forth. I’m curious to see what will happen in the future with the temple, but I, I appreciate that what you’re drawing, and that what the, what you’re drawing attention to is, again, it’s the actual event that has the power, right? And, and, um, but that’s true also of baptism. Baptism is also a symbolic representation of a literal event and, and people don’t argue necessarily against. Baptism the same way that some do argue against the temple. So it’s good to remember these things that all
[49:09] Meghan Farner: of the things are really pointing us to receiving the token, right? So baptism is a symbolic representation of what we have to learn how to do in order to receive the token. I have to learn how to die as to my natural self and say, I would rather die than live without God in my life.
[49:32] Michelle: Well,
[49:33] Meghan Farner: a new life.
[49:34] Michelle: Yeah, it is, it is sort of a, I mean, we’re not to the consecration yet, but it is a it’s like my life is yours, God. Yeah,
[49:41] Meghan Farner: tell me what you want me to say that all of these things are learning how to consecrate in greater and greater degrees. It really is a progression and, and sometimes I think that the gospel feels really overwhelming because it’s like There’s a million things and we have to be doing all of them at once in order to feel like we’re being successful. When in reality, when you see things this way, it becomes, oh, I just need to identify where I am in the progression. And put all of my heart and energy into living those laws and hearing the voice of God and responding so that I can receive my next token. And then I’ll worry about those higher things as I progress to that level. It really simplifies our, our process. And these, these gifts of grace, they enable the whole thing. So it’s the light of Christ that we receive at birth, that leads us to make the sign of baptism and to learn to live that law so that then we can receive the Holy Ghost. And then the Holy Ghost is the one who will lead us to the next gift of grace. It all builds on itself. And that’s why the earlier discussion that we had. About things being in their proper order is so important because there is a way and it is, it is line upon line, and we, we Or it’s, it’s in order. And it, and, and I want to be careful too, because there is nuance to all of this, like there is, um, variability. I think we’ve kind of alluded to that just in talking about like the way that you learn, the way that you connect with God, it’s up to you. Like, it’s gonna be different for all of us. Um, but there, there are these events, and I think that we’re very familiar with the idea that there’s a process, and we need to know that there is also an event. And what that looks like is going to be different for all of us, but we at least need to know that it’s there so that we can look for those. Those are our way stations, right? Those are our mile markers that help us identify where we are. So, I know that for some people hearing this, it might feel upsetting, um, to look, to listen to this and be like, well, Are you saying that maybe I haven’t received the Holy Ghost yet? Like, are you, are you saying that maybe I haven’t had that gift of grace, and I don’t bring this up to hurt anyone or to, you know, to bring these things up for anyone, but I do think that it’s very, very important. That we all are sure as to that question. And if we don’t know what it looks like when that happens, we’re not even gonna ask. We’re I
[52:13] Michelle: think that’s what I think is really useful is if anyone is feeling that question coming up, well, ask, like, ask the Lord, because I’ve, my experience is Those answers come quickly and profoundly, right?
[52:27] Meghan Farner: And like, even if your answer is no, at
[52:29] Michelle: least
[52:29] Meghan Farner: you know that now. But,
[52:30] Michelle: but, but asking, it’s not a, there’s not a value here. There’s not a valuation. I that’s one thing that makes me, that has made me concerned about, um, more focus being placed on. Sort of these events, right, is that it then turns into a new hierarchy and a new way to feel important and then, you know, and it’s like, oh, we’re doing it wrong if we’re going that way, right? That’s but it’s a hard challenge that we have to deal with. But I think that, um, being able to connect to God, because the fact is God wants all of us to receive. And if, and if we, if we have any concern about what we have received or where we are, what we’re not asking is, God, do you love me? God, do I have value? God, like that, like that’s, I mean, maybe people are asking that, but that’s that answer can be given completely, right? Maybe that’s the first answer you need. But I guess what I’m saying is asking the question is the first step, right? Like, like we start by saying, Lord, where can you, like, have I received this? Where am I on this path? And can, can you help me proceed? Do you want me to go along the path? Is there truth to this, right? And I think that’s what I like, like, I do, for me, I’m not necessarily as, um, I don’t necessarily, um, try to pin my experiences down into, oh, that fills that slot. That fills that. This tells me where I am. I like, it doesn’t, that’s not, um, that’s not helpful to me because it does bring up this, this sort of, oh no, am I good enough? Have I gotten far enough, or, or, or I’m pretty good. Like, I just want to stay away with from anything that does that. So I do prefer just being like, Lord, what, what’s next? But if, if people are feeling a concern coming up about, am I on this path or am I Ask. And that is beautiful. And that’s how the Lord can start because then we, the next thing to ask is, what, what do you want me to do next? Like the, the experience that I had recently in the temple that I haven’t talked in depth about yet came because I was just asking. I was listening to 3 on a long drive and just asking, Lord, how, like, not how am I doing, but, you know, like, what would you like me to do to bring my life in further alignment into your service? And And, and can you let me know kind of how I’m doing like, you know, are there things? And I was invited to go to the temple, right? And then I went to the temple and I had a profound experience meeting God. And so, so anyway, I think that asking is always beautiful and it’s something we never stop doing. So anyway, sidetrack from that, but yes, I love that we just need to ask.
[55:00] Meghan Farner: Yeah, and just, and I would just say like whatever your answer is. Like, have gratitude, have gratitude for that, because when we know our standing before God, exactly like what you’re saying, then we can affect change, then we can choose, then we can employ our agency, and we have more of a direction instead of just kind of being like, well, I’m just doing all the things, so hopefully I’m good with God, right? Um, in my experience and what God has shown me is that when we are drawing closer to them, there is evidence. There is substantial evidence, and these gifts of grace are a major form of that evidence. God wants to give them to us, and sometimes it is as simple as asking to know where we are and then asking to receive them. And God is going, like, our heavenly parents are so happy to work with us. So I hope that this is helpful just for identifying what the way is that Jesus Christ came and taught, right? His followers were called the followers of the way. This is the way and we need to know where we are in the way so that we can continue.
[56:07] Michelle: One other, one other thought I just want to throw in. The voice that’s telling you, oh no, maybe you’re not good enough, or maybe they’re saying you’re not, that’s not from the Lord. And that’s the value of asking because when you ask, the answer is never going to be, yeah, you’re really behind, you’re really not, do you know what I mean? That or those other people are way better than you are. That is never going to be the answer. That is the adversary, and those are the voices that keep you from asking. So I just wanted to clarify that as well like when you ask the like. The blessings are profound. The love that, you know, experiencing the love of God is profound. And then, wherever we are, what do we have to look forward to next, right? What, like, like, wow, how exciting to have these opportunities laying out there for each of us to experience. And there’s not a one. It’s not a one and done. It’s not like. That’s, that’s why I don’t like slotting them in. I just, every experience, every experience I have with the divine is. I blessed, right? It’s glorious. So yeah, OK, this is great.
[57:12] Meghan Farner: OK, so the third ordinance at this time, if you have, if you are participating in a temple ceremony where there are multiple rooms, usually this is when you start transitioning into or you’re about to transition into the terrestrial room.
[57:26] Michelle: The lights turn on if you’re just and
[57:28] Meghan Farner: it’s right before that. And this is when you would put the robe on the right. on the right shoulder. OK. And so this symbolic ordinance, what is the lived ordinance for it? The sign, well, the overall ordinance is the ordinance of marriage, which is a lived ordinance, probably one of the most obvious ones that we read about in the scriptures, and we’ll, we’ll see why. The sign is your wedding, that you get married, right? That you have this event where you two come together and you make those vows to each other and you dedicate yourselves and say, we are going to go through this process together. We are going to learn how to balance ourselves and how to align with one another to create a partnership.
[58:08] Michelle: And yeah, you do that between God and witnesses. And I would say, and these angels, right? Like we have, like, like our children are there, part of our wedding. So anyway.
[58:18] Meghan Farner: I would say, I will say, spoiler alert, that I’m, I’m going to be discussing marriage and sealing as actually separate ordinances. Now, the sign of that could overlap if you were married in the temple, then you made the sign for the 3rd ordinance and your 4th ordinance at the same time. But we’ll, we’ll talk about that. I think scripturally, there’s, there’s actually two different things because the 1st ceiling that we experience by going through this path is actually ceiling to Jesus Christ. Yes. And then when our partner has made their journey, and they are sealed to Jesus Christ, then there’s the opportunity for us to be sealed together. It’s all aspirational, right? And so, anyway, we’ll come back to that. So the sign that we make is the sign of marriage. The law is the law of chastity. That’s why the law of chastity is where it is in the temple. I know that sometimes people are like, why is it? In this place, it should, it feels like that should be, you know, that’s that’s a part of these things. And in some ways it is, right? Like, all of these things are available to us, whether or not we’ve had the opportunity to be married. OK. So like, I don’t want you to think that you can’t progress if you haven’t had the opportunity to be married yet. But one of the ways that you can show God, hey, I am engaging in this process is by living the lot of chastity before you’re married. Right. That’s one of the signs that we make before our wedding sign to say, I do want to, I am engaging in this path, and I want to progress in this path. Even if I don’t have the opportunity to make that sign yet, I’m going to be living that law anyway. Does that make sense?
[59:48] Michelle: Yeah, yeah, I do. And, and I think that also, I’m just having this thought that the law of chastity, one thing that this tells us potentially where it is placed. in the temple is that it’s not just a law of don’t do this. It’s also telling us a lot of do this, right? Like this is the purpose of marriage. It’s bringing forth children, right? And and anyway, I just, it can also make us curious about what is the full implication of the law chastity? Is it just a bunch of don’ts, right? And there’s there’s a lot to consider that that it’s actually. An important thing that God wants us to, to give us, right? And that the law of chastity is to turn our hearts to our spouse. Like, like we do live the law of chastity in a different way after we’re married. And that’s important to recognize, right? It’s, it’s not bad to even have it restated at that point.
[1:00:37] Meghan Farner: Right. Absolutely. And one of the things that I talk about too in my book is that regardless of whether or not we have a spouse right now, Jesus Christ is our bridegroom. So part of learning to live the law of chastity is developing our fidelity and our loyalty to Jesus Christ. And it’s important to look at that in the context of this whole process, right? Is that we’ve been born, we’ve been justified by this point. So when we’re married, like in the process, it doesn’t always happen this way in our lived reality, because you could get married before you’ve completed things. But in this way, one way to look at it is that, OK, this kind of overlaps with the process of sanctification. And sanctification again is that deep healing, and it’s also deep learning, and it’s that gathering of truth from all these different places. And learning how it all weaves together into one great whole. And in my experience, when you’re going through that and you start learning, oh, I can take threads from this other faith tradition, or I could Take threads from spirituality and new age ideas, and I can bring all these things together and they’re true. And God is coaching me how to do that. There are also a lot of opportunities to say, do I want to go and align myself with this particular group, with this particular aspect of truth? Do I, do I no longer want to follow this one tradition? Do I want I want to go over here. And so part of this particular process is saying, no, I want to be faithful to Jesus Christ. He is my God. And I do recognize that there are other gods that are benevolent and have good things to teach me that I can bring together into this one hole, but I am going to remain dedicated to him. And I think that comes up probably multiple times. Where it’s like, do I still want to continue with Jesus Christ? Um, so that’s kind of a lot. I don’t know if you have any thoughts on that.
[1:02:33] Michelle: OK, I mean, my mind’s going a million different directions. But yeah, I like, like I have a lot of thoughts, but I’ll let you just continue on and um so we can get more insight. OK,
[1:02:43] Meghan Farner: so we’ve made the the sign by getting married. We agreed to Live the law of chastity. We start participating in the sacrament of sex. That is a sacrament. As you were talking about, that is something that we are supposed to lean into. There’s beautiful symbolism there about the masculine and feminine and women learning how to align with our spirits, men doing the same in that act that is so unifying, that teaches us how to live that law with each other and with God. And then the token that’s associated with Living this law is called, you’re calling an election being made sure, or receiving that promise of eternal life. This is something that Joseph t beautifully about, but I would just encourage anyone again, if you’re like, where are these things in the temple, or in the scriptures, go back to the scriptures and study marriage. Study the themes of the weddings and the ancient symbolism. I’m really good friends with Donna Nielsen, who wrote Beloved Bridegroom, which is all about the ancient Hebraic symbolism behind their weddings, and that is such a treasure trove. You can go find all these principles in that book as well. Um, But if you do that, what you’ll find is that when Jesus Christ is talking about and using wedding imagery and using himself as the bridegroom, it is connected to this idea of obtaining eternal life and obtaining these promises. Um, the parable of the 10 virgins is one that comes to mind, right? Where he is the bridegroom and he’s coming. And are we prepared with oil, which is a deeply symbolic substance? Are we prepared with oil in our own lamps to go into the marriage feast and be sealed to Him, to have that eternal relationship with Jesus Christ? So the fourth one, again, in our
[1:04:24] Michelle: marriages even, we are still practicing this fidelity, because these are things that weave through all of the ordinances. Our fidelity to Jesus Christ, right? And our fidelity to our partner that we like fidelity is The is the point, right? Fidelity and connection. And through that process, well, procreation just means like creation together, right? And we do that with the Savior. Everything that we do, like your book, right, is an act of procreation between you and the Lord. Everything that we do inspired by God, even if it’s served that, you know, every impression we have that we follow through on is an act of procreation because we are sealed the Savior, right? And
[1:05:03] Meghan Farner: so this is that We can look at with that spiral staircase imagery, right? So Jesus Christ, when he comes in 3rd Nephi, talks about the doctrine of Christ, and he says, this is my doctrine, and anything more or less than this is not mine. And I think sometimes we get really focused on that. Some groups in particular do where they’re like, it’s this is all that there is, right? And in one way, it’s like, yeah, that is the second ordinance, which is really, really important. Like that’s a transition from the lower law into the higher law is is completing that. Like it’s very, very important. But also, there’s a pattern there that has that has application on a higher level. And that’s really important. Jesus Christ in doctrine and Covenant says, I give you a pattern in all things that you be not deceived, right? So what’s the pattern? Well, the pattern is faith and repentance, which undergird every ordinance. You’re working in faith, you are changing. You are a Aligning yourself through that fidelity, right? You’re developing that fidelity to Jesus Christ. That is a repentance. And then you have a sign, baptism is a kind of sign, and then you have a gift of grace. So all of the ordinances conform to this pattern of the doctrine of Christ when you see it as a pattern. Does that make sense?
[1:06:14] Michelle: Yeah, I’m thinking this through. I think that these are really challenging questions because I know that it does say anything more or lessons. And a lot of people from other faith traditions point out, you’re adding to the atonement of Jesus Christ with the temple, right? And I think that maybe what the challenge is there, and, and you can push back on me, or, you know, because I’m just thinking these problems through, they are challenges. And, um, I think that maybe part of the challenge is that. That how the temple has been represented to us as members of the church and how we tend to represent it is that it’s also necessary for consultation. It’s a, it’s a required, these are required ordinances to receive the blessings rather than seeing, oh, this is kind of a cliff notes or a cheat sheet to help us accomplish these ordinances that are available to everybody, right? It’s, it’s a way to set out the pattern.
[1:07:03] Meghan Farner: And it is an act of faith in that we are spiritually creating by physically participating in something, right? In the ritual. So I do think that there’s a benefit there to to participating in ceremonies for sure. But it’s the lived experience that is the thing that transforms us. That is when we receive that grace. That is when we progress in that relationship with God. And I hope we’ve seen like These things are so accessible. These things are so accessible.
[1:07:31] Michelle: And so I think there is, like, for people who have answers, there are people who have genuine answers of the Lord saying, you don’t need to go to the temple anymore, or you’re, and I, and I have wondered, I don’t ever want to tell people what their answers mean. But I think there is also a point of, um, the Lord having to teach us where our real worth is and where our real real connection to God is. And so if people are thinking, my connection. To God is because of the temple or is through the temple, then maybe they will have the answer. You don’t need to go to the temple to connect with me, right? If that makes sense, you might want to be.
[1:08:02] Meghan Farner: Or it could be, like, I also have friends that have been told, yeah, you need to pull back, you need to, you need, you know, I don’t want you to go to the temple. I want you to take a break from church or whatever. And then they find themselves back a few years later. And in your just is because you need to do some healing and I need to teach you. That there that there is a bigger pattern here that The symbolic ordinances are not salvic. What they represent when we live them, when we experience the lived ordinances, that is, that is
[1:08:32] Michelle: salv. And you know, I’m thinking of, OK, so here’s an example. Like I have a friend who was doing tons of abdominal exercise after having a baby, trying to get her abs back, but she was doing the exercises wrong. So it was actually diastasis rec recti worse, right? And so when she went to a physical therapist, the The first thing they said was, stop. You have to stop doing these exercises for an extended time, and then we have to slowly learn to do them the right way, right? And that’s, I guess, the comparison I’m making with the, with the temple, with church. When we are thinking of it as this is the structure I’m climbing, this is the ladder I’m climbing to prove my worth to God. And if I, you know, if I do enough things or if I, and it’s not just that one way, but like, if, if we are seeing our activity in the temple or in the church as this one way. The Lord might say, stop. We need to stop. Just like, you know, you’re like, like you’re building the wrong muscles there. And you’re, you’re not, this isn’t healing for you. So let’s stop. And then slowly it can be like, 00, I’m seeing it a different way now, and I’m engaging with it a different way now. And that’s not saying that that’s everyone’s process, but I do think that is a process that I have definitely seen with many people. I know that, like I was just talking to my husband about this, um, yesterday that Like, like the way we engage with the church and the gospel now is so different than how we used to, you know, like as a young mom, I was doing so much and I was like, the best Mormon mom. I, I mean, because I really, that’s what I wanted to be. And that’s what, and, you know, and I had to come to a point where it was like, like, I can’t do any of those things. And, you know, where I just kind of opted out of everything that wasn’t extra. I think it was when I was pregnant with my 10. And 9th or 10th, and it was like, it’s too much, you know. Well, I guess, anyway, anyway, it was at that point that I realized there were some things that they weren’t letting me opt out of because I had already opted out. And I’m like, I can’t do the things. You cannot make me do things that I can’t do, right? And so, anyway, so I, I, I, I’m sorry, I’m going on a sidetrack. I just think it is very important how we engage with the table, how we. Which muscles we are activating while we’re doing those exercises to know if they’re helping us or hurting us. That’s an important.
[1:10:45] Meghan Farner: Maybe there’s another level of symbolism that we can go back to the, to the apron about here too, right? One of the beautiful things about symbols is that they work on all the levels, micro to macro, and you can have a single symbol with 1000 interpretations. And I think that one of the things that we kind of struggle with culturally in the church is that we’re not really Uh, literate when it comes to symbolism and symbology. So that’s really something that I think is important for us to focus on and, and look at a little bit deeper. But just thinking about what you’re saying, there is a moment where we take the apron off. And maybe initially that apron, in addition to symbolizing the natural man, could be our false beliefs, our false traditions. We have to take those off. And there is a moment where we don’t have any of that on us, right? until God can repurpose it. And then we can reintegrate them in a whole new way. And all of a sudden now there’s, there’s more truth here. There’s more light here. And we do that multiple times, right? So I do think that there are times in our life where God does say, Yeah, I need you to stop that. I need you to stop believing, stop believing that thing that you’ve always believed because it’s not true and it’s not helping you. Let me teach you a little bit more, and then I’ll show. the proper context and where that fits in.
[1:11:56] Michelle: And that’s that is interesting because it’s the same pattern. There is a stripping down before we can
[1:12:06] Meghan Farner: emerge better before as atonement, like there’s always, you got to go down before you go up. Christ came
[1:12:10] Michelle: down to go up. Yes, yes, and that’s, that is what I think we’ve read in Isaiah. I think that’s one of the reasons it’s so valuable to us. But seeing that in the temple also as the stripping down and then being built up is really valuable. OK.
[1:12:22] Meghan Farner: Yeah. OK, let’s go to the last, the last ordinance. So again, we’re in the terrestrial room. This is right before we, we participate in the True Order prayer, which there’s a lot of symbolism there. And then approach the veil, right? So this ordinance in its lived reality, the sign, I do believe is our temple ceiling. It is our way of expressing to God and saying, I want to come into, I want to be sealed to you. I want to be sealed to my spouse, but I want to be sealed to you. The law is the law of consecration. And again, these are, these things are all building on them, right? So like, we’ve learned how to be obedient, we’ve learned how to sacrifice. We’ve learned how to Um, be faithful to Jesus Christ through everything. And so now we’re ready to give it all. You have all of me. You, there’s nothing that I’m holding back from you, right? And then the token that’s associated with that is the parting of the veil, and Receiving Jesus Christ in the flesh. So when we take that and we go look at scripture in the Book of Mormon, recently, we just studied the beginning of ether, right? Ether 1 through 5, and ether 1 through 4 is a temple text. And if we look at the symbolism, we see the brother of Jared’s lived endowment. That he went through this process. He went through this dissent. He passed tests. He discerned the false religion that he had grown up in. He rejected it. They went, they participated in all these deeply symbolic activities that talk about, that allude to him gaining light and knowledge, becoming more balanced between masculine and feminine energies himself with his family, with his broader community. And then he approaches the veil in the true order of prayer and God asks what is wanted. And he expresses his need and desire and his faith has become so great because he’s gone through this whole process over years of his life. He’s become so sanctified that he knows. What to ask for and that his prayer will be answered. And when he does, that bell literally parts, and he is brought into the presence of the Lord. And then the Lord starts ministering to him. The Lord starts teaching him and showing him, and he has a vision of everything. That’s what we’re talking about when we were discussing what will the Millennium Temple look like. It’s gonna look like that in one way or another. It’s gonna look like us being mentored by Jesus Christ in the ways of the cosmos, in this universal education. That’s what the next thing’s gonna look like. So really the endowment ceremony is only half, I think, or less of what the whole circle of progression and Becoming like God is actually like, but it’s what we have right now, and it’s what we need to focus on right now. Um, and, and I don’t know many of us who have gone through the whole lived endowment, but I know some who have. And these things are available to us. In the Book of Mormon in the same account that we’re talking about, the Lord says, if you can rend the veil of unbelief. And come unto me and be sanctified, right? He’s talking about the same pattern. Come unto him by receiving the Holy Ghost. Be sanctified by participating in your marriage and improving in your marriage, and learning and putting off the natural man more and more and more, getting rid of those parts of you, not by cutting them off, but by loving them into wholeness inside of you. Then we will be prepared to approach the vow, and that is what is needed for us, especially right now at this time in history.
[1:15:57] Michelle: OK, OK, man, so many thoughts. But yes, I, I think that, um, I think my favorite message is this, uh, I think that more and more people who are doing really thoughtful work on the temple are coming to these similar conclusions that this is a symbolic representation of the actual events. But it does, if we are the Lord can use it to help us accomplish the actual events. It’s not necessarily required, right? But a couple of, a couple of things that come to mind. I do think, and I say I’ve said this before and I even have said it in our conversations. I’m sorry to repeat it, but I do think it’s important to recognize. That these actual events do not make us more or less or greater than or less than because I think that that’s one thing that can hold us back from them if we feel sort of like, oh if I haven’t had this, then I’m not good enough. Then that kind of means, well, if then you’re given it with still having that attitude, then you might think, oh, now I’m better than I’m have it, right?
[1:16:54] Meghan Farner: That is something that I’ve seen, and it’s honestly, it’s a very real temptation. Like it’s very real. And the more light and truth that you gain, the more tempted you are to see yourself as better than other people. And it’s something that I know, I struggle with at times, um, if I’m being perfectly honest, because it is so hard to see things that other people don’t see and not think that they’re blind, right? Um, and it’s a lot harder to say, you know what, maybe I see these things so that I can serve those people better. Maybe I see these things so that I can love them until they’re ready to see these things. Maybe I see these things so that I can invite them. And if they decide not to, that’s OK. I’m, I, it was just an invitation. It wasn’t my invitation anyway. Like, there’s so much that we Can be sanctified from if we resist that temptation to feel pride because of the experiences we’ve had with God and the knowledge we’ve gained.
[1:17:47] Michelle: Right. And it’s, and it, and I think, I think it can go any direction and every direction. I feel like there’s a tendency to think, I’ve had these experiences. I’m more spiritual, I know God, and to kind of not recognize, that means the adversary is working on us that much harder. And there are always, they’re all like, kind of the, the, um, I don’t want to give a bad analogy, but in a way, the image I’m having is kind of like the straight narrow path gets straighter and narrower as we progress along. And it’s even easier to slip, to have a foot slip off of it, right? And, and to, to, to kind of let go of our grip because it’s a little bit, right? We have to be more and more precise and more and more, we, if we aren’t growing in humility, and then, then, and Parody, then, then there’s parts missing, right? And so even people who haven’t had the same ideas being able to say, see, um, OK, God, why is this person in my life, in my path right now, in my family, or my, like, how, what are, what can they teach me? How are they a gift to me in this moment, rather than just thinking, I have so much to give them, you know, like, like I’ve tried to really turn up to see everybody. As a gift to me and boy it can be a challenge, right? I always I’m just remembering like oh it’s, it’s an opportunity for me to have charity at the very least, right? That’s that’s the baseline, but often there’s a lot more and there are so I’ve gone through periods of thinking, oh, I’m, I’m so much, do you know what I mean like I’m back from my past decades and I can see like. Oh, all of these people don’t even want to hear these profound insights I could share with them, or do you know what I mean? But then coming to realize, oh my gosh, the things that they had to offer me if I was more willing to be open and willing to hear, or the talents that they have that I just look at in awe, or, you know, like, like seeing it in that way is really important for us to not, to not start putting ourselves.
[1:19:50] Meghan Farner: And the truth is, the truth is, is that we’re not, like, we’re not better than anyone. And as soon as you start thinking you are, you’re wrong and you need to repent. And like, that’s so hard for us, um, because we do have these lenses that we inherit that we’re born into these paradigms, and it’s really hard to put off that spirit of competition and Comparison, those are negative masculine qualities though, like that is an unhealthy masculine traits if we want to start talking about the masculine feminine, we can start getting to that
[1:20:22] Michelle: that’s good, yeah,
[1:20:24] Meghan Farner: but um, yeah, it’s really important for
[1:20:26] Michelle: us than anyone else and no one else is better than us. Don’t see someone who has had an experience with the divine and like, like I had an, I, I. The Lord is amazing and the way the Lord works, and I ended up having my bishop, um, like call me in to talk to me, and it was just a little while after I’d had this experience in the temple, and I went ahead and shared the experience with him. I felt inspired to and He was wonderful, you know, but his, his response surprised me and it was like, to tell you the truth, I feel jealous. And I, I, it was, it was so sweet that he believed me and didn’t, do you know what I mean? But I also, it also alerted me to a different danger that I hadn’t thought of because I was in no way sharing. I was sharing from a place of like, Like, can you counsel me? you know what I mean? I just felt inspired to share with him and kind of seek counsel about, about this is how I’m thinking about maybe talking about this, you know, and he didn’t, he didn’t want to take over my experience and my dis discernment, but I want, I was, I was thankful for the opportunity to share with him. But it made me like, 00, that’s not what I want people to take from this is any sort of jealousy or do you know, so it is always a challenge to talk about these things.
[1:21:36] Meghan Farner: Yeah, yeah, and I, I appreciate that and I, I feel the same way. I do. I share some of my experiences in the book. Um, I, I haven’t gone through this whole process. So like, I, I am very aware of the fact that like, if you’re looking for me to be qualified, I’m not qualified.
[1:21:55] Michelle: So, yeah,
[1:21:55] Meghan Farner: yes, and I know that that can be really. Frustrating for people who really want that qualification, but I’m very grateful for a God who works with us anyway, wherever we are. And if we have a willingness to serve, they, they give us what we need to do that. But, um, I do share some of my experiences, not at all to put myself on a pedestal. I really hope it doesn’t come across that way, but I Again, it’s just to illustrate, and I can only illustrate based on what I’ve experienced.
[1:22:18] Michelle: So I wasn’t applying that because I think we do need to share experiences. It just, it just alerted me that, oh my gosh, this is, this entire discussion is fraught on every side, right?
[1:22:28] Meghan Farner: Well, and it really is. And, and I’m very aware of that too, like, and writing this book was so hard, like, especially writing it for women because feminine spirit is. Nuanced. It is fluid. It is not black and white, like masculine spirit. And again, we’re trying to build this integration. And so we need elements of that black and white, but we also need the part that says, no, there’s like a lot of gray area here, right? And like, and so it is really challenging to talk about this path. It’s also really challenging to talk to women because our experiences are so varied. But if, if you don’t take anything else from this discussion, I hope you hear that our God, our heavenly parents, they are universal, and they love their children equally, regardless of anything, and they give us all the same opportunities, and they invite all of us. And if we decline that invitation, Or if someone we love declines that invitation, they’re, they’re OK. Like they are not diminished in their love or their opinion or anything. They will keep inviting us because they love us so much, because Jesus Christ is faithful to us, even when we’re not faithful to Him, even when we I think that he is someone that he’s not. He knows us perfectly. And so I just hope that you hear that. And like all of the other things, this is an ideal. None of us fit the ideal, OK? But we need to know the pattern so that we can choose to engage in it. That’s the only reason that we’re sharing these things. And I just, I hope that comes across.
[1:23:58] Michelle: And and the journey of our lives, what we’re asking for and everything is The good, what resonates with you and leave aside the bad. We don’t need to go to war. We don’t need to right if there are things that in the
[1:24:08] Meghan Farner: I’m OK with being wrong also, like, I’m very OK with being wrong. So if you think I’m wrong, I’m very OK with that. Like,
[1:24:15] Michelle: that’s fine. But, but when there is so much good to be able to take, it’s a shame to be like, oh, I’m offended by that thing. And I find myself doing that sometimes. So I always need to work on that as well and be like. No, take the good and it’s OK that the bad is there. I don’t need to take it. I don’t need to eat everything on this table, right? I know that there’s some people that say we can’t have a, what is it, a smorgasbord church. I’m like, Oh, we absolutely can and must
[1:24:38] Meghan Farner: cafeteria.
[1:24:40] Michelle: Cafeteria Mormonism. That’s what it is. It’s like, that’s what it has to be. None of us can do all the things, all
[1:24:45] Meghan Farner: of
[1:24:45] Michelle: life,
[1:24:45] Meghan Farner: you know, and this is the parable of the Wheat and the Ts. I love to look at it at the level of interpreting truth and counterfeit and how they interact with each other. And the parable starts with saying that The wheat and the tears, the truth and the counterfeit are sewn together throughout the whole world. Like there’s nowhere that we can go that’s just truth. And that’s really hard because we’ve been taught that there is. And so there we have to do a little bit of unlearning there. Um, but once you know that, then you know, OK, well, I need to be discerning. And I, and I, and I become discerning by engaging in this process, in
[1:25:23] Michelle: following. Yeah. And it’s also important to know that so that you know, what was that movie, The Village or whatever it was, like, if we go start, like if we go start a horror movie. I don’t know. I I just remember that they were like, the world is so corrupt, we want to go start our own village where there won’t be corruption. But it’s baked in, right? They couldn’t avoid, they couldn’t avoid wickedness or pain or whatever it was. And that’s kind of true. And that’s been one of my answers about. Religion as well as when, when it’s been like, I can’t do this anymore, like, Lord, show me something better and it’s It’s always been like, what’s not gonna have at least as many problems and maybe different people have different paths, but for me, this is, do you know what I mean?
[1:26:02] Meghan Farner: like the cake. That’s in the too. That’s in the too, right? Like Satan parallels religion with the philosophies of men mingle with the scripture, right? And so we should, we should expect a degree, well, we should expect that there is truth and error everywhere.
[1:26:19] Michelle: And yeah, yeah. OK, so let’s continue on with, um, I wanna, I, because I am fascinated by the masculine and the feminine. And so if we have, yeah, like, maybe we can take some more time to kind of talk about that. That’s interesting. And I, and I, I again want to say like I love the messages you’re showing. I hope I haven’t thrown you too off track by just I think we’re covering it.
[1:26:38] Meghan Farner: I mean, I, I hope that there’s something of value. I, I find that. The spirit’s the one that teaches, so, talk to, talks with the spirit. Um, anyway, so yes, um, massculine and feminine. There are shadows of this in the temple. They’re very subtle, and there’s a lot that we perceive as missing from the temple because it is a feminine spirit at the same time. So, a couple of things to think about. First off, in our garment. The mark of the square is over the right breast. That is the masculine side, anciently. The right is the masculine. Interestingly, the right side of our body is guided by the left side of our brain, which is the masculine side of the brain. So there is an interesting dichotomy there. The left, we have the mark of the compass, and I didn’t know for the longest time. I, I exposed my ignorance when I say that I didn’t know that it wasn’t the, like, point. North Compass, like the kind you take with you when you’re traveling in the wilderness that points north. Not that compass, the architectural compass, right? And I know that some people take issues with this because Freemasonry did use these symbols, but these are more ancient than that. Like these go back much further. The left is always the feminine side. When we go into a temple endowment room, more often than not, men are seated on the right. And women are seated on the left. And we tend to overlook that because that’s just how it is. That’s our paradigm. It’s hard to see symbols and things that are so common to us. And I think that gender in general is kind of that. Like, we’re just born into this world where gender is the paradigm where there are men and women, and that has become more confusing over time. But for the most part, we don’t even really pay attention to that because it’s just so normal. But one of the things that I’ve learned as I’ve looked at the temple and tried to pull out some of these symbols is that there’s a reason for that. It’s not just that women are seated on the left and men are seated on the right, because that’s the way that it is. There’s a message there that says that women need to be aligning with feminine spirit, and men need to be aligning with masculine spirit. And there’s deep reasons for that as well. In Doctrine and Covenants, it talks about how it is element and spirit inseparably connected that receive a fullness of joy. And the reality of our physical genders exposes the fact that our spirits are gendered as well. And so the resurrection is a part of that, right? Like bringing our spirit and our body together inseparably through resurrection. But the other aspect of it is that my body and my spirit need to feel unified with each other. In alignment. And my spirit is the one that is of a higher caliber than my flesh. And so ideally, I am working to align my flesh with my spirit.
[1:29:23] Michelle: Yeah, yeah. I want, I want to add a couple of things to the left and right seating because I actually think there’s a lot of importance there. There’s so much. And so one thing that that I do want to point out that is fascinating, the, the compass and the square, right? The square is a right. sharp, pointed, right? The compass is used to make circles, right? And if we think of shapes, that, I mean, of if we want to gender the shapes like women are, we say curvy, right? Like, like the, the, the, the, um, circular shape is more the woman, the right angle is more the male, right? The masculine and the feminine, if we want to take it to that point. And also, this is really interesting in the Salt Lake Temple. I don’t know after the renovation, but it used to be that there was a small segment in the front where the women and men sat on the opposite side, and then that in the back, they sat right, because the women are on the left and the men are on the right. But there was a small, where it was reversed. And I noticed that one time when I went, it was really brought to my attention. And I, and I thought that was, and I had an answer when I prayed about why was this? Why is this? This is many years ago. And um I won’t necessarily share that answer but it is interesting because it shows an eternal progression, right? And it is interesting that it’s the right side of the brain and the left side of the body and that and vice versa that is that was was actually symbolized in that early Salt Lake Temple, which I found interesting. I don’t know about the Saint George Temple. Someone will have to write in because that was built before the Salt Lake Temple or if it was just an anomaly, but I feel this is what I think is important. We have the Bible that went through. So many, um, centuries of corruption, that of, of lack of understanding, right? Of things being added, taken away to the gospel. And yet the Bible comes to us so powerfully and, and so intact. And we have the Book of Isaiah that is almost completely intact, mainly because I think maybe possibly because it was so encoded, right? So they didn’t know what to what to take out, but they knew I had great significance. And so I guess that’s what I want to propose is that The temple, even if it has come through many different, um, many different hands over time, the Lord is capable of working with that and through that and still bringing truth and still speaking to us today, right? And so anyway, so there are a lot of really profound things with that. So yes, the, the compass in the square, the masculine and the feminine, the different sides of the room symbolize that for me, another symbol of the in the. and the internal parts of the temple, I think are the the feminine. Did we talk about that already? I don’t remember,
[1:31:52] Meghan Farner: but I think that you’re, I agree with you.
[1:31:54] Michelle: But the external, the, um, pointing out to the world, protecting, right? We have a steeple reaching to heaven, symbolizing power of God given, that’s definitely a phallic symbol, or do you know what I mean? Like the And then, and then that is the exterior of the temple. And then in inside we have the womb where metamorphosis takes place, right? That the, the outside makes, um, uh, facilitates. And so there’s a real, and, and then, of course, coming through the veil symbolizes birth. There’s so much, um, masculine and feminine symbolism in the Temple throughout. Right.
[1:32:30] Meghan Farner: And I think that I find it helpful to go back to the masculine and feminine symbolism, because in my experience, pretty much everything can be deduced to that, to masculine and feminine. It’s almost like the lowest common denominator that you can find all other symbols, yeah, come back to that. And so it’s really helpful for understanding. Ourselves for understanding the temple, for understanding life in general, and also understanding God, understanding our heavenly parents.
[1:33:00] Michelle: It’s built into the cosmos on every level because we have the moon and we have the sun, right? The monthly cycles versus the daily and yearly,
[1:33:07] Meghan Farner: right? We have equal. And the equal and complementary aspects of both of those things.
[1:33:14] Michelle: Yeah, exact same size in the sky. That is profound, right? Like yin and yang is a power, powerful symbol. And
[1:33:22] Meghan Farner: I talk about it throughout my book. It’s one of, it’s an underlying theme throughout my book because it really is the symbol of eternity is the yin and yang, and it is the feminine and the masculine. It’s the feminine and the masculine. Ideally, the feminine is the dark on the left side coming down. And then the masculine is the white on the right side coming up, and they each have a little bit of the opposite energy, which is really important to know too. I have spent a lot of my life in masculine energy. I think we’ve talked and you’ve said the same thing, like the fact that we have these outward facing platforms, that is a kind of a masculine ministry that we have. Um, and so I’m like, I’m never going to be the person that’s 90% feminine all the time, like I just can’t. Um, the good news is, is that feminine is more nuanced and we have more variability, especially given, it depends on the time of life that we’re in, the season that we’re in. Do we have kids at home? Have our kids left? Do we not have kids? Like, all of those things play into, to what degree am I able to be feminine. But the idea that I’ve learned is that we should be trying to be, to embody feminine energy most of the time. And what that looks like will be different for men and women, for men, for their development, and I can talk about why. I see you have a question of like, why is that?
[1:34:33] Michelle: Why is that? I have a different thought on that. I, and I also
[1:34:36] Meghan Farner: think it’s important to define femininity, because what we might have is kind of a celestial. Almost stereotypical idea of what that means. And I, and I think that it’s much bigger than that. So in my book, I have a chart that I talk about feminine and masculine spirit, and what are some of the aspects of them. Maybe it would be helpful just to go through that really quick, just so that people have an idea, because again, I think these are symbols that maybe people don’t think about very much. So feminine spirit, as opposed to masculine, the feminine is hidden. It is veiled. It is the mystery. It is the dark side of the moon. It’s internal. And that’s one of the reasons that we don’t see it as much. And I don’t want to say that that in a way, I, I don’t want that to come across as women are not meant to be seen. That is not what I mean. What I want to say is that women and our heavenly mother are like the moon. And you see the moon in phases, and sometimes it’s a new moon, and sometimes it’s a full moon, but there is an aspect of it that is always hidden. And that is the mystery inside of ourselves. That is the creative potential that is unending and undefinable. Does that make sense?
[1:35:41] Michelle: Yeah. Yes, yes. So this is where I, I, I want to just push back my, my, my one push back. I want to do it at the beginning before we go to these because it might bring another element to these. Because I do think so, so I guess how I have thought about this over, you know, all of my time thinking about it is that, um, where, where I am right now is I do think the And then the gang is symbolic of this greater thing, the mask and, and we call it the masculine and the feminine for a variety of reasons, but I think that all of us embody both and we are wherever we are in our individual personalities. So I don’t think it is that because we’re female we should be more aligned with the female traits and because we’re male like I think that both of us have both and we’re all on a spectrum, right? All of us have both and and so I don’t think that it’s like um. That that we need to try to align necessarily. I think it informs us, and I think the more that we have both integrated fully into us, the better off we are, right? Like, I guess I would say we could take it, we could say that women should be more in the, um, you, you know, in the feminine side to say like, so women should be up at night and men should be up in the day. Do you know what I mean, we could talk. And I’m using an example of, so I think that like there like it is so profound that women have internal sexual organs, right? And then we talk about like the gold inside the cave, but there’s also a dragon inside the cave and the man is going on the adventure with his sword, which there’s so much symbolism into all of this. And, and so, so yeah, the external and the internal, the The like steeple pointed to heaven or the mysterious, what’s happening inside, right? All of, all of that is symbolic. But I don’t think that I think it’s something to that describes the nature of creation to us, but I don’t necessarily think that think it’s, I think it’s descriptive not proscriptive and maybe maybe we see it differently. I don’t think that I need to slate myself into being. Something or other based on this and and I because I think that the more men integrate the feminine characteristics into their personality, the better off they are and I think that the more women integrate the masculine and the like you know they both have a shadow side and a good side they both but. But anyway, I, I just wanted to, that’s, that’s my view of it. I don’t, I don’t want to try to slate myself into more stereotypical feminine in somebody’s mind. I’m like, I am and I want to be,
[1:37:58] Meghan Farner: right? Well, and I think there’s a big difference between embodying the symbols of eternity and and conforming to a stereotype. I think there’s a big difference. There. What I will say, and I can, and I’ll, I’ll just speak from my personal experience. So my husband and I have been together since high school. We’ve been together, oh, I don’t even know, almost 14 years at this point. And for the vast majority of our marriage, I have been the masculine energy in our marriage. And I can do that. Like, I can have the babies and I can do the work, and I made 6 figures, and I took care of our family, and he bounced around from job to job and never really settled, never really figured out what he needed to do. Um, he has struggled with addiction issues. And so, and I would get to the point where I’m just like, OK, well, I’ve got all these babies and I’ve got all this work, and I am feeling unsupported and I’m, I’m not feeling like I’m able really to progress in my journey. And so at the beginning of 2023, I was praying to God and I said, God, I really want to be sanctified. Like, I want to continue in my, in my, my, in my version of the way, my part of where I am in this process. And the answer that I got was completely shocking to me. It was, you need to know your heavenly Mother. As a woman, for you to be sanctified, you have to know her. But it wasn’t just about knowing her, it was about knowing myself. And it was about knowing my feminine spirit and my feminine energy. And so within a week of that prayer, you know, God doesn’t waste time. God, when we ask, when we pray for something, God’s like, OK, great. Happy to put that in motion for you. Within a week of my prayer, I lost my job. My six-figure income that was completely supporting our family. My husband was in the seminary teaching program at the time, so he made nothing. I lost my job. I was 6 months pregnant with our baby, and the answer that I got was, I don’t want you to work, like, just wait until after the baby is born. And I’m like, OK, so we’re living off of savings and my husband’s, you know, Little bit that he gets from seminary. Well, I have my baby in May, and in July was I kind of started looking like, OK, where do I want to go back to work? What do I want to do? And the Lord came to me again and said, I don’t want you to work anymore. And I was like, OK, well, also, when I lost my job, we bought a house the same week with a massive mortgage on it that was based on my income, right? So like, we’re seriously draining our savings, and I’m, and God is like, yeah, I don’t want you to go back to work. And I’m like, OK, all right. And so my husband, God bless him, was like, OK, and He ended up getting hired for seminary and then within just a few weeks, he ended up quitting because it wasn’t livable anymore. And he recognized like, oh, I need to step up and be the provider for my family. That was a massive sacrifice. That was really, really hard for him to do, but he did it. And where we went from there is we ended up selling that house. We ended up moving in with my parents. Like we downsized everything. We got rid of everything. He continued working in real estate, and now I’m home with my kids. And what that did for our marriage, I can’t even put into words. There is something about me choosing to align with my spirit that first off invites my partner to do the same on their end. And then it like right sides our relationship. We’re like beforehand, there’s this tension, and I think that there are a lot of people who experience this and maybe they can’t even put it into words where it’s like, we love each other, we’re doing our best, like we’re checking all the boxes, and yet there’s so much tension in our marriage and like, as a woman, I’m burned out. I have adrenal fatigue, I’m so tired, like I can’t. Keep doing all the things that I’m doing, and men, men who are in unhealthy feminine spirit, because that’s what happens. I’m an unhealthy masculine spirit, he’s an unhealthy feminine spirit as a result. They can’t do the baby making, so what do they do? We get addicted to things, we play video games, we’re lazy, we’re apathetic, we don’t have a relationship with God. We’re not really driven to go do the money making because my wife is doing it, she’s doing a better job anyway. And so, I’m not gonna, I, I’m not going to prescribe and say, yes, everyone has to do this, everyone has to do whatever because again, there’s so much variability. All of our situations are different. What I will do is testify and say that if you as an individual or you and your marriage have not Considered these principles and have not applied them, you might want to, because I really do believe that there is a healing that comes when we align in that way. And again, it’s not about the stereotypical stuff, OK? I don’t like pink, I don’t like Taylor Swift. I’m not into that stuff, right? But I am discovering that I am deeply emotional and that that’s powerful when I learn how to express those things. I am learning that my power as a woman is in my presence more than in my doing. And that is a major lesson I’ve had to unlearn. The action, the power of doing is masculine. I was raised by a very masculine father and I love him. Like he taught me so much. He taught me to work hard and he taught me that being productive and responsible are some of the greatest qualities that you can have. And for a man, 100% that’s true. For a woman, being present. Being aware, bestowing your being on people. That is the power of femininity. And obviously, there’s nuance to that because I am a mom. It doesn’t mean we don’t get to do things all the time. Like, we provide a lot of the structure for our kids. We kind of do the seesaw thing where like, I’m feminine relative to my husband, but I’m more masculine than my children, or else the house would burn down and everyone would be dead. Like, there, there is this flow that we have to learn to cultivate. Um, but this is my experience and I’ve witnessed it with other people too. And so that’s all I’ll say, like, read my book, think about it. If it doesn’t resonate with you, like, that’s totally fine. But I would just testify and say, there’s something to this, and I can’t explain all of the reasons or the science or the spirit behind all of it, but there is something to be said for me choosing to become more feminine.
[1:44:04] Michelle: Mhm. OK. So this is so, I’m so actually glad we’re having this conversation, because, so I actually have had a different journey and a different course, where, um, my husband is very masculine and, um, very strong and, and quite in charge, you know, great. But, but, um, and I, uh, Um, had 4 children in 3 years, and, you know, and, and then have kept having children. And I had to have a different journey of stepping a little bit more into, rather than supporting him and his life and what he’s going to do, and I, you know, of being a little more assertive and saying. If I really feel strongly that my kids need that, I’m gonna buy it, rather than waiting for his permission because he’s the one that makes the money. Or I’m going to focus on my priorities rather than just doing what I need to do to be a good wife and a good mom, right? Like, and so I think, I guess that’s kind of what, because I have always had a masculine temperament, but I’ve been in an extremely, um, traditionally feminine. Um, environment. And then I also was kind of, I wasn’t stepping enough into what we could call the masculine, right? And, and we needed the balance in a different direction where it was like, oh, do you know what, if the house isn’t clean, well, someone else can pitch in and clean it if there’s dissatisfaction about the state of the house right now. Do you know what
[1:45:26] Meghan Farner: I was not
[1:45:27] Michelle: attitude? No, I had to learn that. I had to learn.
[1:45:30] Meghan Farner: I actually think that that is feminine. Oh, that’s a different conversation. Oh, OK.
[1:45:36] Michelle: No, I,
[1:45:37] Meghan Farner: I think you’re right though, this idea of like we, we all come from different starting places, right? And that’s why this process is so intimate between us and God, because God is the only one who knows like. This is the false belief I was indoctrinated with. This is the trauma that I had. Like this is like, these are the things that have made me who I am that maybe need to be redone and reordered. And so, yeah, it’s like what that journey looks like is gonna look different for everyone, and I do think that the ultimate goal is Having a balance between our masculine and feminine, whatever ratio that is, but I
[1:46:08] Michelle: think for women in our relationships, right? Like
[1:46:11] Meghan Farner: in order to make the relationship part work though, that is where there’s gonna be a little bit more femininity maybe for me, and more masculinity for my husband. And it sounds like you and your husband still have that balance. It’s just you had to learn the sort of. Yeah, exactly. So it’s, it comes in levels. This, this process of integration, it’s almost a three-part space. Of like building integration between us and the Lord through that baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, that connection to the divine. And then we start through the sanctification to build that integration between my body and my spirit, figuring out what this ratio thing is, and like, how do I be more feminine compared to my husband, but also embody my worth and do my mission as a woman. Again, for men, the masculine is more black and white, so I feel a little bit more confident saying men really should be in their masculine most of the time. For women, there’s more variability because the feminine is more nuanced, and we are at different places, we have these different situations. That’s kind of my working opinion right now, if that makes sense. OK,
[1:47:11] Michelle: yeah. And I think a ton of this, a ton of this comes down to, um, interpretation, how do we interpret those words, our individual situations, how do we like the So much, um,
[1:47:26] Meghan Farner: maybe it would be helpful if I read the chart now too.
[1:47:28] Michelle: And so I do want to, yeah, cause I, cause I hear what you’re saying. I just, I just want to let people know like, like this is your interpretation of your experience and how you hear these words and what they mean to you, right? Because for me, when I see my husband’s feminine side, it’s like delightful,
[1:47:45] Meghan Farner: right? But it has to be healthy too. And I think part of the process is unlearning. What it really is, is it’s unlearning the unhealthy that we have adopted and then relearning what is the positive for both of those elements.
[1:48:04] Michelle: Just like the temple, just like the situps right the
[1:48:04] Meghan Farner: same pattern. It’s just repeated in 1000 different ways, right? But when we talk about feminine versus masculine, so we the dark, the hidden, the veiled, the mysterious, that’s very feminine compared to the men, which is light. It’s what you’re visible. It’s what’s visible. It’s what you’re aware of. It’s the sun compared to the moon, right? The feminine spirit has a very mystical kind of heavenly nature to it, because our job, our stewardessship is about bringing that which is spiritual into the physical reality. So we really have both. There’s a very physical element to the feminine, as well as the spiritual element, where men are more likely to be of kind of the earthly grounded, like, what is visible, what is tangible to me, what is concrete? Like, that’s more of a maybe the masculine side. And their job is to help elevate that which is physical. Back into more of that spiritual state, right, like helping us through that process. So one way that I like to think about priesthood, I think there’s a lot there that maybe we misunderstand too. Um, but I think one way to define the, the true order of priesthood, the, the high order of the Son of God, is almost a mentorship program of men who have gone through this way, who have received these gifts of grace, who can then turn around and mentor and teach others how to do the same. So that is, that kind of defines that masculine aspect for me. Do you have a question about that? I know that’s a very different definition than.
[1:49:31] Michelle: I’m just, I’m just, I’m still finding myself wanting to push back against. I love the idea of masculine and feminine. I don’t love the idea of men and women, if that makes sense, right? Because I see I see both of us have all of this,
[1:49:44] Meghan Farner: right?
[1:49:44] Michelle: Yeah.
[1:49:45] Meghan Farner: Yeah. Hear me when I say that. We all have both. It’s just figuring out where do I gravitate towards.
[1:49:52] Michelle: Right. The, the, the crucifixion was an extremely masculine event because it brings the, um, the earthly up into the spiritual realm, right? The birth of the savior was a very feminine act because it was bringing the holy. On Earth, right? Those, those are. However, yes, yeah, and there are a lot of women, yeah, there are a lot of women who maybe don’t give birth and who maybe are more involved in elevating the people around them into a more spiritual realm. So I think it is I I talk about,
[1:50:26] Meghan Farner: well, here’s the other thing too, women. In some ways, I feel like we’re 2/3 of the puzzle, because women are queen and kingdom. We are the moon and the stars. Like we are, um, we are the birth, we are the initiator. Eve was the initiator, right? We’re also the one who holds your hand and walks you through the next part, right? So we really have a large portion of responsibility, and that doesn’t mean that men don’t or that they are lesser or any of those things. It just means that our stewardessship really is quite vast. And we just haven’t really recognized that in a lot of ways. Does that make sense?
[1:51:08] Michelle: OK, yeah, I’m, I’m hearing, yeah, yeah. Interesting. OK. OK. It is always uncomfortable to talk about male and female because of, like, I also don’t want any of the men listening to be like, come on. Like, you know, cause sometimes I get pushed back on that when I focus too much on the feminine. So, and, and I love the, yeah, it’s, it’s just a Interesting dynamic to talk about. But I do like, like, like, at least in young life, the feminine kind of is the setting, right? You’re with mom most of the time, and it’s, that’s kind of that heavenly cosmos, right? And, and then, and then, and then, but it is the the masculine that does most of the activity in the world. Most of the, you know, like. Um, the action, like you
[1:51:50] Meghan Farner: said, right, yeah, the spirit of doing, the spirit of action. Another thing that we could look at is, well, I’m not gonna go there. I come across the wrong way. I, I’m not, I hope this doesn’t come across the wrong way. I don’t mean any of this to be stereotypical or to be dismissive of anyone’s experience. Again, I really hope that people hear that. We all have both of these energies. It’s just figuring out how to navigate them in a way that is true to our spirit and our flesh. And I do think that that is important to the way that we live the gospel. Um, anyway.
[1:52:22] Michelle: And you can say the next one. I don’t mean to say that to you. I, I think that you are correct, and I think that, um, it’s probably because I’ve come from such a feminine, um, I, I, you know, I have 13 children. I’ve been a homeschooling mom. Like, I’ve had a very tradition, and I’m, and a huge defender of, of that domain. I don’t think that that domain needs to be changed. I think It needs to be elevated. I think we need to give mothers more credit and more honor, especially if they have developed their minds as they’ve been doing it. And, you know, I think that’s something that should go on a resume proudly and be impressive to a, you know,
[1:52:57] Meghan Farner: I don’t mean any of this dismissively.
[1:52:59] Michelle: I know you don’t,
[1:53:00] Meghan Farner: yeah, yeah, like I think my whole book is, is. Trying to illuminate these things in a way that show, oh my gosh, we have so much worth. We have so much worth, and we have so much given to us and like we have so much potential, and yes, it’s been kind of veiled, like we’ve been kind of veiled to ourselves and like the nature of this world, we live in a very masculine world and so there has been impact from that. Um, but this is the fullness of time, and this is the time when the veils are getting parted, and I think that women, we have to understand these things about ourselves in order to know our heavenly mother. Where are we going? Like, we, we have to do that, but the work. As opposed to a masculine way of doing it, which would be looking for others, looking for sources, looking for external credibility and authority to tell me what I need to know, the feminine is going inside myself and saying, if I know more about myself, I will know more about God. And that is the feminine. The feminine is focused on the go within, where the masculine is the god without, and we need both. We need both. Um, so that’s what I mean. I hope that like, we can start to see that these really are not stereotypical things. We see elements in it, maybe in the way that we talk about gender and the way that we talk about men and women, um, but these are really so much bigger and so much broader and They have way more importance in depth than we tend to give them, if that makes sense.
[1:54:22] Michelle: Yes, yes, and oh I so what we can hear in your list and in your words is giving ourselves permission rather than rest is not
[1:54:31] Meghan Farner: you need to conform. This is, this is you are already this. You already are this. You just need to remember that and live accordingly. That’s what it is.
[1:54:40] Michelle: Yeah, or you have permission to delve in and be this. You don’t need to exude something to be of, you know, you don’t have to, and, and, and I think that you are correct that there is sometimes also a Willingness to step back to let, you know, sometimes, sometimes a woman who’s like you have the experience of, I, the Lord is telling me I need to just stop and go through this scary thing so that my husband will pick up the burden.
[1:55:04] Meghan Farner: We can contract. And it doesn’t, and like, men and women both have that capacity. Like our partnership is like a magnet, right? And so like, if I contract, he’s gonna fill that space. If he contracts, then I’m going to fill that space, right? And so it’s figuring out to what degree do we both need to like hold the space that we’re supposed to be in. And yes, it’s not that I’m exclusively one thing and he’s exclusively the other. It’s that we’re a partnership. And so there’s going to be motion that entire time. But yeah, I, I’m so sorry. I feel like I’m not communicating this very well.
[1:55:34] Michelle: I think I made it hard for you. I think I, I, I think it’s actually a valuable because bringing the different perspectives to it can help clarify so people can hear and some people might be really mad that I’m pushing back because because they are beautiful concepts. I
[1:55:46] Meghan Farner: think we’re saying the same thing though. That’s what’s So funny is like, I think that we’re trying to, I think that we’re in agreement with each other, but the way that we’re describing it is just kind of maybe not quite so clear.
[1:55:57] Michelle: And maybe we’re coming to it from different directions. That’s that’s also what I think is having a big impact. So yeah, you can finish your list because I do think it’s worthwhile. I am. And, and yeah, go ahead and, and if there’s,
[1:56:09] Meghan Farner: I mean, again, like this is just, this is just descriptive, right? Like this is just to help us understand like what these eternal things look like, OK,
[1:56:20] Michelle: um, maybe part of what I’m sorry, I’m just thinking through on a couple of my videos. I have people comment and say like, who’s taking care of her 6 children while she’s doing this? And do you know what I mean? People that are, like, but the critics will use anything to critique, but I do think that particularly since we do have a traditional culture in the church. And I think in too many instances um we have imbalances that are not appropriate gender imbalances and so I think that’s part of why I’m, I don’t want this to sound like, oh, everything’s fine the way it is and women just need to be satisfied and be, do you know what I mean, because I, I’m I’m, I’m trying to like I’m trying to discern because it has been for me important. It like it was an important journey for me to recognize. The feminine is missing. And I do have permission to believe what I, when I like to believe what I believe. It’s OK if the Lord teaches me something that the male leaders haven’t already taught me. I have permission to believe that. I had to go through that process, and it was difficult. And then when I had the answer to give birth to my child, the way like, what could be more feminine than that, right? And I had male leaders telling me that I couldn’t do that, right? And talking to my husband, telling my husband, don’t let her do that, right? And so, and so, so it’s been a process for me to go, we need much more of the feminine in domains that we may tend to think of as masculine, right? Like we need the, the, the church is really out of balance in that perspective, in unhealthy ways. And I think that a lot of that has come to us from Brigham Young, and a lot of it has been visible in the temple over time, right? So I think that’s what this conversation. I’m just wanting to make sure that it’s not sounding like it’s not sounding like a nice relief society lesson of oh like let’s be satisfied in our spot, right?
[1:58:12] Meghan Farner: That’s like in fact my book couldn’t be further from that. Like it really can’t like this is not. Not me saying sit down, shut up. That’s not at all what I, I’m saying the opposite. OK,
[1:58:26] Michelle: that’s I’m trying to say
[1:58:27] Meghan Farner: the
[1:58:27] Michelle: opposite.
[1:58:28] Meghan Farner: I’m saying that we need women. We need women. Go back to that discussion that we talked about of the way and of this progression of ordinances. Not a single one of those takes place without women, and women in big capacities. No one got born into this world, including the savior, without a woman.
[1:58:45] Michelle: And not only women as mothers, women as mothers, yes, women as women’s voices, women’s insight, women’s, um, women’s presence in every, um, setting. The,
[1:58:58] Meghan Farner: the account of Moses is fascinating because he had 7 named women. That’s a lot for a surrounding one figure, but that’s important, and the number 7 is important. It is deeply connected to the feminine, this idea of completeness. You don’t get there without us, OK? And we have been, we have not, um, come up to our full potential and capacity yet. And I think that that is one of the things that we are seeing right now. We’re seeing a restoration of the divine feminine. It’s not coming top down, because that’s not what feminine spirit is. Feminine spirit is this. It’s the grassroots. It’s at the, it’s at the level of our homes. It’s coming through women who feel called to understand themselves and to understand our heavenly mother, to understand our divine potential. It’s happening down here. It’s not going to come like this because that’s the masculine. And that’s why I’m trying to talk about these things, is to see, like, once we can define feminine spirit and what it looks like, it answers so many questions. It answers the questions of why don’t we see certain things in certain ways? Not that we should keep them that way, but that Maybe that gives us some context and then also we can know how do we approach that to correct the situation, how do we bring more balance between these energies? So, I mean, yeah, my book is not at all that
[2:00:22] Michelle: that’s why I made it sound that way. I didn’t, I didn’t assume it was. I, I do, I feel like, um, because I dwell in this space of polygamy, I engage with a lot of polygamist mindset, and I have for many years, right? And so it’s, it’s so fascinating. Like, here are just a couple of examples because this is where we’re coming from. This is our recent past and to some extent our present, there are people still saying these things, right? Like, instead of recognizing the sun and the moon that they’re exactly the same um, the same size. The sky and have the same importance in our lives. I have had multiple times, people point out the sun and the planets. And there are 9 planets orbiting one sun, and that is proof of polygamy, right? Or I have people, I mean, these are the kinds of analogies that people make. Or they’ll say that Adam, um, that God’s saying to Adam, or saying to Eve, he shall rule over thee, right? That God is like wanting that rather than recognizing, hello. Does God want the earth to bring forth thorns and thistles, and that’s how it’s gonna be in in eternity and the celestial kingdom? Or is God giving both Adam and Eve’s loving warnings of, you know what I mean? He is telling them these are the conditions of the fallen world and, and it’s OK, it’s, but these are the things you need to be aware of and they are the things that will be overcome when. The earth receives its para psycho glory, right? And we are trying right now, like, righteous men don’t rule over women. Right? We’ve been told what unrighteous dominion is, and that’s exactly ruling over women. So for people to use these store does that make sense? So I feel like that is, that is our burden. I think we’re saying the same thing. That is our journey as we like, like the feminine divine. In each of us and from, from Heavenly Mother is reinvigorated right now. It has been since women like Maxine Hanks and others that were doing back in the 80s, right, that like, like Margaret Toscano, you know, like, like this work is continuing. We are and, and we are bringing this forward and I just want to say like a question that I had for a long time because when my sort of feminine awoke and when I realized. You know, I started, I, feminist is such a tricky word, right? Because it’s so, it has such a bad connotation. But, but it also can have a really good connotation. It’s just this awakening to go, oh, the feminine is missing. And maybe that matters, right? And so, and I, and I did start to ask these questions about like, like when I had a horrible, that a horrible meeting with my male leadership and was praying desperately because it felt abuse. I, I was, I was I was destroyed. Like, when I say I was devastated, I don’t mean I was emotionally devastated. I mean there was nothing left of me, right? That, to pick up the pieces. And when I went to God and prayed and opened the scriptures desperate for answers and all I could see, and I know now that the Lord was bringing this to me, all I could see was he and him and Father and Son, and You know, and I, I, I mean, people have used this. I did. I, I threw my quad against the wall. I was like so broken. And it was, and all I could see was, I don’t matter. I don’t matter because I’m a, a woman, you know? And the Lord used that to help me learn so much more. Like, I realized that was the point of that entire experience, was to help me see this. And so that, so I, I did go through a process of like, Why is everything male? Why do I want to come into the presence of a male god? Why do I want to, not why do I want to, but why is that the option? Why is that the offering? Why is, where is the feminine? Where am I represented, right? And so, anyway, so that’s been part of my process, and part of what’s beautiful is that. I know that um the feminine divine is present in the temple and I know that we can be brought into the presence of the feminine divine and that is part of what we, um, like I love how you were saying these things are possible, but there’s also. Like for us as women to be brought into the presence of heavenly mother is a glorious thing that we can look forward to and that can be a reality for us. And so, so that’s, anyway, go ahead. I kind of went off for a minute.
[2:04:41] Meghan Farner: No, you’re OK. I think maybe this would be a good time to go back and talk about kind of the lens that I use for my book, and that’s a lens that I call divine feminism, because you’re right, feminism is really tricky. And the idea behind this perspective that God has given me is that God is our heavenly parents. They are the Elohim, our heavenly mother and our Heavenly Father. It is that one man is equal to a woman. One woman, and that women need to remember that. And the whole book is about not telling us what we have to do or be or anything like that. Again, it is kind of trying to outline this ideal, but it’s trying to show us that we already have power and authority. We already have priestesshood. We already have permission, and now is the moment where we need to take that to heart and, and And move it out, out. Embody it. Live in our power, live in our femininity, live in the balance with our husband, whatever that looks like. Live our particular path. Whatever that includes or doesn’t include, it’s exactly what God has given us. It’s exactly what we wanted to go through this pattern, to learn everything that we’re learning, to develop in the way that we’re developing. So that we can experience these incredible results, so that we can become like God, and we’ll know that because we’ll be with God, and we’ll be able to look and say, oh my goodness, you have transformed me, and I’m like you. Now, um, you know, we’ve talked about this whole pattern. What’s really interesting to look at, if we want to talk about who was the first person to receive the second comforter, who was the first one to get that gift of grace, it was a woman. It was Mary Magdalene, and she has in the Gospel of the Beloved Companion, her ascension that talks about how her partner, Jesus Christ, walked her through these 8 levels of ascension. And at each bow of this tree, a tree of life, she had to partake of a fruit, fruit of love and compassion and humility and bravery and courage and, and, and charity, all of these beautiful things. She had to partake of these fruits and she had to deny the opposite. She had to deny ignorance and arrogance and assumptions and evil. She had to put all of that off. And at the end, she, she partakes of the fruit of the eighth bough. And she is brought into the presence of a woman. Of our heavenly Mother That is her experience in the temple, women follow women. All the way through the end. And on the other side of that vow, there is a woman, even if she’s not physically being sym symbolized that way. There is a woman and a man. And our goal is to walk through that pattern in our life. And in order to to do that, we have to see what we already have, who we already are, who Eve was. I have a whole chapter basically about Eve and the way that I see the garden story, and it’s very different. It’s very untraditional because I’m looking at it through this masculine and feminine lens. And when you do, you see, oh my gosh. Eve was right there. Like she was exactly, she was aligning with her mission. She was aligning with femininity. She was a trailblazer. The word help meet Ear Knedoneiddo, that part of the word, it means. Um, an adventurer, a trailblazer, someone who goes ahead, someone who initiates, someone who’s a risk taker, who is doing this work, and she is doing what? She’s inviting her husband to come with her. She was, she was your mother, she was a mother to her husband when she gave him that fruit and said, come with me. And he was brave, and he sacrificed quite a bit to do that. But like she is the one who was initiating that and birthing him into a new existence with her.
[2:08:48] Michelle: Oh. I love that. See, I love the story of Adam and Eve because I do see she is the visionary and she is the elevating them to a higher plane, but then Adam actually is the first Christ because he said. I will. I will, I will, I will do this unthinkable thing because of my love for you and my and my my I and and and the wisdom I see in what you’re saying. And
[2:09:16] Meghan Farner: it was a major sacrifice, OK, because Adam in the garden, he could do all the things. He was balanced. He was doing his masculine work, bestowing no name. On the animals. That’s like a form of putting them in covenant with him and God. And so like, he’s doing all the things. He’s good. And he said, You know what, I will give that up so that you can, because the garden wasn’t a place that Eve could do her work. Oh,
[2:09:37] Michelle: and I think it’s even more, I see there’s something greater here that we can do together. Right?
[2:09:42] Meghan Farner: And there are many traditions that also highlight that aspect of it. Like, let’s come. But What happened is when he did that, he set himself off balance. He put himself in a position where like, we’ve got the natural man to overcome, right? Like, we need to put that off. Women have that too, and that we are cut off from the presence of God, but also we come here ready and able to do our work. We can give life. And I don’t just mean children, I mean give life in every possible way, right? The first person Eve gave life to was Adam. And there are apocryphal texts that denote that. There are apocryphal texts that say that Eve was the one that said, Adam, awake and arise. And he rises up and he says, he rises up and he says, I will call you the mother of all living because you gave me life. Oh,
[2:10:26] Michelle: that’s beautiful.
[2:10:28] Meghan Farner: And so, like, this is the natural woman. The natural woman comes here and she knows her worth and she can Do her work and she is divinely inspired. She has intuition. People don’t like the interpretation that Eve had a knowing about the fruit because they’re like, she couldn’t have known because they were in the garden, blah blah, blah she knew in her heart. She knew the way that women know. OK? We do have 1/6 sense. That’s a real thing. It comes with our stewardessship. Again, we’re bringing that which is spiritual and ethereal and mystical into Physical embodiment. There’s a connection there that is unique to us because of that role that we play. It’s doctrinal. We’re not just speculating and saying, Oh, women, maybe we get, maybe we’re close to the spirit than men. And it’s not an excuse. It doesn’t mean that men don’t get to be close to the Spirit, but there is something innate in us because we are the vessels that bestowed the light of Christ. We are the ones, faith is that action. We are the embodiment of faith. OK. We take that which is spiritual, we bring it into physical reality. That’s what faith is. So, and that’s what you did. And so, yes, she knew, not in words, not logically, not with this mental masculine sense. She knew in her heart. She said, this tree has wisdom. Wisdom is my heavenly mother. I want to be like her. I am going to partake of the fruit. And I think she knew that she was going to. I think the nature of her deception was totally different. I don’t think that her taking the fruit was ever the deception. I think the deception, I go into this in the book, I think the deception was that Satan appeared to her as an angel of light, and she believed that she was being authorized by Jesus Christ to take the fruit. Oh. And that way, she was deceived. And there, and there’s a lot I can go into about that and the symbolism of the serpent. And what the scriptures say about Satan’s capacities, but I think that and and that’s why Satan’s cursed, by the way, too, because it wasn’t his job, it was a feminine job. It’s the feminine that says, we’re going to partake of the fruit now. And he planted that and put himself in the order. And so who was cursed? Satan was cursed. Exactly what you were talking about. Eve was not cursed. God just said, OK, you’re going into a celestial space, so you should expect headaches, and pregnancy is going to be really uncomfortable. Like it wasn’t, I
[2:12:46] Michelle: don’t even think it’s about that. I think it’s about. Right. And watching your child crucified in front of you. And like I think it’s about
[2:12:54] Meghan Farner: sex and sexism and the fact I’m
[2:12:57] Michelle: symbolizing that with. Like, like, it is about the, the like, like the conditions that we will face in this world come
[2:13:07] Meghan Farner: into this world and there is sexism. And women are degraded in many ways, and we’ve forgotten, OK? We have forgotten who we are. And right now it’s time to remember. Like it’s time to wake up and remember.
[2:13:20] Michelle: I wanna, I wanna, I love what you’re saying about the Adam and Eve story. I completely agree. In fact, I’m excited to read your chapters on that. I didn’t get a chance to read my book before our conversation, so I, I wish I had been able to. But I also, one thing that I really like, Jordan Peterson, I like Jordan Peter. Anderson a lot. His handling of Adam and Eve in my book is atrocious. It makes
[2:13:40] Meghan Farner: me I haven’t heard it, but I can imagine it’s very masculine. Well,
[2:13:44] Michelle: it’s also, it’s just so I’m like, oh my gosh, he’s so off on that and it’s driven me crazy for many, many years. I actually wrote him a letter about it many, many years ago. But, um, but, but one of the things is also, I just want to throw this in there because it’s important to me when God comes and says, what have you done? And Adam says, the woman thou gavest me, like, it’s so easy for us to, to, um, read into that, that they’re throwing each other under the bus, that Adam’s throwing Eve under the bus, Eve’s, that it’s blame. I don’t see it as blame at all. I see it as direct explanation. God, I know you gave me this commandment, but you gave me this woman. And she gave me the fruit, and I ate it to stay with her, right? Which was her job, which was her job and her job. He had, they both had agency in that. When it says Adam fell that men may be, right? He made a choice. It was and so I think that we need to really do a lot of work to redeem that story from what broader Christianity has done to it.
[2:14:50] Meghan Farner: And there are other interpretations like there’s a There’s an account of Adam and Eve from an India, from India and from an Indian perspective. And when it comes to that moment of like, they’re explaining to God, both Adam and Eve are like, God, please punish me. Like, don’t punish them. Like, I love them. She didn’t do anything wrong. He didn’t do anything wrong. Don’t cast him out without casting me out. Like, they loved each other and they, and they, they were willing to sacrifice themselves. I think both of them showed that. Like both of them. Did acts of sacrifice with the understanding that there’s progression here, that dissent comes before the ascent and the assent is worth it.
[2:15:29] Michelle: Right. Right. And you know, another part of Eve’s deception in my book, and maybe it’s not, but it was, she thought, like, like how I looked at it, and I’m really excited to read your additional insights. But, but some that I’ve had, she didn’t realize fully what the cost would be. And then, um, what breaks my heart, I I think she thought she messed it up. Like I think that she did have the burden of suffering on her shoulders, which
[2:15:53] Meghan Farner: don’t feel that way. Yeah, like so many times.
[2:15:56] Michelle: And this makes it so profound when she says to Adam, it was good that we partake of the fruit. Like when they are taught about the savior, and she, I think for the first time realizes she hadn’t messed everything up, that there was a plan. Do you know what I mean? Like the The joy in those words hit me so they’re so profound when, when you see that might have been part of her deception and that’s the these are the deceptions we still struggle with, right? Right.
[2:16:22] Meghan Farner: But we have to know ourselves as women. Like we have to see her in ourselves like, oh yeah, I do that all the time. Like, I feel guilty for things that were totally not my fault and not even wrong, right? There’s another, there’s another part of the account that people might zero in on where when the serpent first comes to Eve. And he says, Are you allowed to eat all the fruit? And she’s like, we can, except for that tree. And the interpretation that I give of that is, I think that she got that law from somewhere other than God. The way that she phrases it, like it could have been verbatim, like Adam, so Eve wasn’t even created yet. Adam in every single one, and they go through every one because like once you see it, you’re like, oh my gosh, like. That’s important. So she wasn’t even created yet, right? And Adam is given the law. You don’t partake of that fruit. Why? Because it’s not your stewardship. It’s not your job, right? So he’s given that law, and then she’s created and the way that she replies to the serpent, it could have been word for word, like Adam said, we can eat all the fruit of the tree of the garden except for that one. And like, I’m not trying to blame Adam. I maybe it wasn’t Adam, maybe she got it from somewhere else. I think she said like, how many times do women adopt a belief? That isn’t for us. Mhm. How many times do we adopt the masculine law? And claim that it’s ours and say, I’ve got to work this way. I’ve got to do my life this way. We do it all the time. And as soon as we start looking at ourselves and taking that seriously and saying, do I really have to do it that way? No, I’m a woman. I can do it a different way. Like, all of a sudden all these doors open up and I think that Eve had to go through that process too, of like, oh, like I just assumed that was my law because Adam has that law, but maybe that’s not my law. You know, and like it’s a, it becomes a part of her in her femininity, figuring out what is it to be a woman? Like, do I really have to play by the same rules?
[2:18:12] Michelle: Yes, I love this so much because it also shows how, how deeply all of this is baked into the cake and how necessary it is to have women involved, right? Because, because Adam was given this law, he was doing his thing. He passed on the law to Eve because he knew it was, and, you know, he knew that this was the law. And so he had full Um, perfect motives, right? And it was all so clear to him it required Eve to come and add these other dimensions that were forced and allowed Adam to grow, right? And, and, and that brought forth all creation, right? And so when this is such a good lesson to the masculine as well, because when there is this tendency of. Um, I, I’ll just say male leadership. I don’t, I mean, there are a lot of men who are not who don’t see it this way, especially in this community, but there is this tendency to be like, this is how God wanted it. Like we had that talk from Elder Oaks that was really like that was like, this is why women don’t have the priesthood. And I’m not saying women need to have the priesthood, but he was just saying this is the pattern, this is what it is. And that’s a very male approach to be like, we know what it is, we have what it is, we, we don’t need any. Anything else, right? Where there needs to be an opening to recognize, hey, there’s something missing. There is something that could bring us, that could help birth us into a new, um, way of being, right? That we cannot bring forth the kingdom of Zion. Without the feminine being like, I always love you probably say this in your book, but we believe that God will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God. For me, so much of that is the feminine that I think is being brought forth right now because I agree with you completely. God is both the male and the female, both the masculine and feminine, and we can be brought into the presence of either one. Or both. We can be brought into the presence of our heavenly Mother. And I think that’s, that’s an experience there that’s waiting for every single one of us.
[2:20:11] Meghan Farner: Yeah. Yeah. And it’ll be in here. Like it’ll it’ll, it’s an internal journey. So what, what you’re making me think of is, um, the hero’s journey, like Joseph Campbell, that kind of literature, um, format that you could look at where The hero is kind of just doing their normal thing and then something happens that invites them to go on this journey and that something is the feminine. It is the woman and the woman’s not necessarily with him in the whole journey because what he’s trying to do is get to her where she is in the tower, right? She’s in this higher place.
[2:20:44] Michelle: She’s the reason for the journey, right.
[2:20:48] Meghan Farner: Adam was created from the dust of the earth, and then he was placed in the Garden of Eden. Sometimes we think that all of Eden was a garden. I don’t think that’s what it is. I think Eden was a place. It was a terrestrial sphere. There was a garden in Eden, and that garden is like a temple space. It’s a, it’s a place where God could descend and commune with the man at that point, right? So, Adam is created from the dust, he’s introduced into the garden before Eve is created, and Eve is created in the garden. She is created in the higher space. And so they go on this journey together, and they’re both going out on their journeys. He’s going on a hero’s journey, which is this descent and ascent that fall atonement creation, and we experience parts of that too. But the feminine journey is internal. We’re in, we’re in the tower, right? And while we’re in the tower, the work that we’re doing is remembering who we are. Who are we? What is our worth? Our worth isn’t gained by going out and conquering and getting all of these external validating symbols, although sometimes we do, which is really nice. But like, our, our worth is internal. It’s innate. It’s unavoidable. We are women, and there’s nothing that you can do to dismiss that value. You can try, and we’ve forgotten a lot along the ways and there’s been a lot of influence. Satan hates women, OK? Like he has expended so much effort to make us forget ourselves. But we’re in that tower. It’s time for us to wake up and remember who we are. We are in that elevated space. We are the tower. We are that, that. The the structure that can support the watchman. And we both work together and our value isn’t because we’re doing something, it’s because we are. It’s because we’re there, we’re present and we are who we are. And I just, I feel so passionate about this message because we’ve been told for so long that we have to gain our worth and it’s the opposite is true. It’s already there.
[2:22:49] Michelle: Oh, OK, so the sooner we stop chasing our worth, it’s not saying we don’t have action. It’s not saying our action doesn’t matter. It’s saying we don’t achieve our worth through our action. I think the same is true of men. I don’t think men achieve their worth through action either.
[2:23:02] Meghan Farner: But I think that they discover that through that external journey. And we discovered that by going internal.
[2:23:08] Michelle: Yes. OK, so it’s, it’s the direction of how we learn and how we have the discovery, not even so much about what action we take. So, OK, I love this. OK. I’m really excited. I hope people are excited to read the book. I think, and I think that it’s good to have that wrestle back and forth with it. What is meant here? What is it, right? You know,
[2:23:25] Meghan Farner: I appreciate that. I hope it’s clear. Like, I hope when you read the book, and especially like when you’re reading it in order, we’ve kind of jumped around a lot. When you read it in order, I mean, it was inspired. And so I feel like there are, like, it, it very much builds on itself. Like it kind of is that spiral staircase of like, maybe we’ll revisit an idea later on, but it’ll be in like a higher context. But we’d really start with laying that foundation of what is divine feminism, how is it that men and women are equal and complementary to each other, and like, how do we begin to see symbolism and these things in our life, so that we can understand who we are as women.
[2:24:03] Michelle: I love it. And you know, yeah, that’s the problem. See, Jordan Peterson has his talks about the Bible surrounded by a table of men, and it makes me crazy, right?
[2:24:12] Meghan Farner: So you’re just fine. If all you want to see is the is the masculine side, but that’s only half at most. That’s only half at most, and it’s likely to be imbalanced and really unhealthy.
[2:24:22] Michelle: Yes,
[2:24:23] Meghan Farner: because you don’t have
[2:24:25] Michelle: half, right, this is the part that needs to be there is this you can’t, I’m just saying you cannot understand the story of Adam and Eve through only, um, a, um, masculine lens, right? And so I think it is, it is, this is beautiful and I yeah, I love the, um, the equality, the symbolism, the uniqueness of each, and yet there is not a, um. There is not a godly hierarchy between men and women. There’s a complete, in fact, I’ll just in closing, I’ll just tell you this was because it goes along with much of what you’ve been saying. And, uh, the answer I had in the Salt Lake Temple when I saw that the seats were different, and I was sitting in this little, and I was like, Lord, why is this? And the, the words that came to mind is, were, um, the last shall be the first shall be last in. The last shall be first, right? And that really confused me at that time, 20 years ago, whatever it was, you know. But, but I do think there is something to this, like, like what we are going for is perfect balance, right? And so, so that is, that’s what we are trying to bring forth. And I think that the, the, I, I do want to say this, that also we as women. We might, we might be in this structure that sometimes doesn’t recognize us, doesn’t, um, uh, we are in an imbalanced structure often in the church in the world, but in the church, even more so, right? And I think that the important thing for us to realize is, um. That we are not subject to that, right? Like it requires us giving our power away in order for that to have power over us. There I had a great conversation with um, Colleen Rogers a little while ago where she talked about this, right? And so I think that’s another thing for us to recognize. We don’t need to go out with our swords or our petitions or our rallies and say give us priesthood. I, I, I don’t even, I don’t think that’s the answer. I mean, I don’t, I’m not saying give us priesthood. I nothing. Nothing like that, right? What we can do is take this internal journey and say, what voice do I listen to? What rules do I follow? What things do I try to accomplish? And we let that come from within us, not from external obligations that are being put on us. And that is our feminine hero’s journey, right?
[2:26:37] Meghan Farner: That’s what the priestess is. The priestess is the recognition of I came here with all the power and authority that I need. Now how am I going to use it?
[2:26:46] Michelle: Yes. Right. And our, our fighting this battle can be our own individual. This is what I am going to do. This is what I listen to. This is who has power, right? And
[2:26:58] Meghan Farner: I’m gonna put off these false beliefs and these false traditions, and I’m gonna put off my pain and my wounds, and I’m gonna put off these. Parts of me that are unsanctified, and I’m gonna allow the Lord to bring it into unity by walking this path, by walking this path, by going this way that he has outlined for us, that he lived for us. He showed us, Jesus Christ is such a beautiful balance of both masculine and feminine. He’s both. And so we can look to him and we can still see the feminine example that we need in the way that he did things. And he’s gonna take our hand and walk us through how do you make this journey as a woman.
[2:27:32] Michelle: Oh, I love it. OK, I’m so, I have loved this conversation. Thank you so much for coming and even working through the like clarifying parts. I, I really appreciate the insights you’ve shared. I hope that people resonate with the conversation we’ve had, and, and I, your, um, podcast is called Remind us what it’s called again?
[2:27:51] Meghan Farner: Latter Day Disciples podcast.
[2:27:53] Michelle: Later.
[2:27:54] Meghan Farner: Look at things a little bit more esoterically, a little bit deeper, definitely have masculine and feminine themes because that’s what God’s been teaching me, so. You’ll find a lot more of that there.
[2:28:04] Michelle: OK, so yeah, highly recommend Megan’s podcast and also the book Consider Yourself as Eve. So thank you so much, Megan. I look forward to future conversations. This was really great.
[2:28:14] Meghan Farner: Thank you. Thanks so much.
[2:28:16] Michelle: I want to again thank Megan for coming on and sharing her insights. I thought that this was a great conversation. I want to thank all of you for tuning in. I really appreciate you being on this journey with me, and I’m excited to see you next time.
