143: Revisiting the Temple with Cory Jensen

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Links

Cory’s website
– You can download a free copy of Completing Your Endowment from the website.
– The discussion on the roadmap that the endowment provides can be found in Chapter 5 — Priesthood and Temple Keys.
-The discussion on the penalties is in Chapter 6 –The Endowment’s Testimony of Christ. It is in the section labeled “The King’s Ransom”

Transcript

[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon polygamy. Many of you know that I have shared much of my journey that I have gone on about the temple, and in continuing with that, I have felt an obligation to share some of the questions from another perspective as well. And In that vein, I was so thankful when Corey Jensen reached out to me and asked if he could come on and share some of his, his insights about the temple and some of the things that he thinks should be added to this conversation. Corey is a longtime listener and is right on board with what we are talking about. I, I can’t Speak for him, but he’s aware of everything that we are talking about and is in agreement with at least much of it. And he wanted to come and share some of the insights that he thought could help broaden the perspective we are all trying to gain about the temple. So it was my privilege to sit down and talk with him, and I hope you will enjoy the conversation. Welcome to this conversation. I am so thankful to be here with my new friend, Corey Jensen, who actually, Corey reached out to me about some work that he has done and wanted to come and talk about temples, which came at the perfect time for me. This is all felt very inspired and put together, and I’ve been thrilled to have Corey on. We are gonna be doing some renovation and, um, my, my husband’s actually pulled the rest of the upstairs apart. This room is next. So I just texted Corey last minute and said, I have one day before my studio gets pulled apart. Can you record today? And he jumped right on very boldly, so. I am so um excited for this opportunity to talk to you, Corey. Thank you so much for joining me for this conversation.

[01:51] Cory Jensen: Well, Michelle, thank you very much. I really appreciate the opportunity and uh I have to say, my wife and I are huge fans of your work and are so grateful for uh what you’re doing and, and how it’s blessed our lives.

[02:05] Michelle: Thank you, Corey. Thank you. That, that is so, so kind and so good for me to hear, especially how much I get beat up. So I appreciate that.

[02:18] Cory Jensen: Um that’s unfortunate because I feel very honored to be able to uh to talk with you today.

[02:22] Michelle: Well, thank you so much. Can I go ahead and share the books that you’ve written? That, so Corey, and I want you to tell us a little bit more about yourself, but I’ll start out by saying Corey is the author of 3 books on the temple, and this is the topic that, um, Corey proposed coming and talking to me about, which I, as I said, felt perfectly timed. So the first one, preparing for your endowment, did you want to tell us a little about this one?

[02:46] Cory Jensen: Um, yes, so I’ve, there are actually 3 books, and they were not written in the right order, but this is the first of the book. Preparing for your endowment is, um, really intended primarily for those who are getting ready to go and, uh, to have their temple experience for the first time. OK. That’s what that that’s the intended audience for that.

[03:08] Michelle: I’m so excited to know about that and to have that because that will come in very handy for, for all of the youth, especially that are coming up. So, so I take it this is the first one you wrote. Understanding,

[03:20] Cory Jensen: it’s, it’s the middle of the series now, but it’s the first book, Understanding Your Endowment. Um, that one is written primarily to people who are familiar with the ordinances. It’s based primarily on scriptures, but as you go through those scriptures and as you go through that book, if you kind of have the temple ceremony in mind, I think it will help turn on some lights and help, uh, with some aha moments and some things that will give greater meaning to your temple worship. That’s the intent.

[03:52] Michelle: Excellent. Can you tell me what year did you write this one?

[03:55] Cory Jensen: I think that one came out in 2015 my memory.

[03:59] Michelle: Yeah. OK. So, OK. And they’re just beautiful books. They’re just well done. I love them. They’re beautiful. And so this is the one that we’re mainly going to be discussing,

[04:08] Cory Jensen: correct? So this, yes, this is the 3rd book Completing your Endowment. It’s kind of my more advanced temple course. Um, this is, yeah, this goes a little deeper, uh, after you, and I would recommend people go through understanding your endowment first. This builds on and goes deeper into some of the concepts that are introduced there. Um, And I think it was done in 2017, I believe.

[04:35] Michelle: Oh, OK.

[04:36] Cory Jensen: So, anyway.

[04:38] Michelle: Excellent. OK, and then I know you said that you also have a website where you teach temple courses. Is this?

[04:45] Cory Jensen: Yes, I, I did this in conjunction with uh Megan Farner, and uh we did an online course, um entitled House of Learning, Understanding the doctrine of the Temple, and um it has content that is uh in the book and some additional content as well, but it’s organized into it, I think it’s about 6 or 7 hours of material. But it’s broken up into 20 minute segments that you can kind of download and listen to while you’re driving in the car or while you’re doing whatever. So, um, and it’s we’ve had very good feedback on it. I think it’s been helpful to people.

[05:21] Michelle: Excellent. So that, of course, will be linked in the description box for anyone who um wants to jump on that. These all look like such interesting resources, and I’m happy to be able to talk to someone who is, um, it sounds like these books came out with sort of a um Less nuanced, more standard idea about the temple. I don’t mean that they’re not profound ideas. I just mean that you hadn’t maybe asked the same questions when you wrote them, that maybe you have now, if I’m under you can correct me if I’m wrong. But, but I’m, I’m excited to talk to you where you have both perspectives and you see the value of both.

[05:58] Cory Jensen: Yeah, I think that’s totally fair. Um, so I’ll give you just a little teeny bit of the history. Uh, I was endowed in August of 1985, and back then we had zero temple preparation. Um, my dad whispered something to me as we walked up the steps of the Logan Temple, and, um, all, all it did was totally confuse me. I was like, what? What am I getting myself into? And when I left 2 hours later, um, I had felt the spirit there to a greater degree than I ever had felt before in my life. I was, you know, 19, getting ready to go on a mission. And so I knew that the temple was significant, but I didn’t understand it. I left kind of scratching my head going, what was that all about? Um, and it took me many, many years of diligent study and really reading everything I could to kind of put, and then the spirit teaching me to kind of be able to put pieces together. And so, um, many years later when my daughter was preparing to go through the temple for her, for her endowment, um, I sat down and I, I pulled together a bunch of scriptures, and for 7 weeks, um, we met on Sunday night, and we spent about an hour and we went through scriptures and talked about things to prepare her. And when she went to the temple, she came out of that experience, and she said, wow, that, that was amazing. I mean, I understood, and I kind of got why we were doing this, and it was so cool to me. And so she really had a wonderful, uh, much better experience than I had had. Um, Right after that, I was called into a bishopric at BYU and um it was a month after we were put in, President Monson changed the ages for the sister missionaries to serve, and we had about 53 sisters in our singles ward there who put in their mission papers and wanted to serve a mission. And Bishop, uh, the bishop at the time knew I was serving in the temple as an ordinance worker. He knew a little bit of what I had done and he asked me, would you prepare these girls for their temple experience? So I took the material I had organized for my daughter and developed, put it into seven-week class, and we started teaching this, um, to these girls to get them ready. Well, within 2 weeks, we had to go get a bigger classroom, a huge classroom actually, because half the ward, more than half the ward was coming to the class, and a lot of them were returned missionaries, and they were like, hey, we hear you’re talking, you’re teaching something about the temple. We want to know what’s going on. So, here we are. And um When I finished that service at the end of the 3 years, um, I, one day, the spirit told me very directly, you need to take this and put it into a book. And I had no idea how to do that, but I was like, OK, well, here we go. And so that was, that became the first book Understanding Your Endowment.

[08:55] Michelle: OK. OK. So that’s the understanding your endowment is what you taught your daughter, what you taught those classes at NYU, is that OK,

[09:05] Cory Jensen: OK. To a great degree it is, um. Uh, and then after that, um, the publisher, Cedar Fort contacted me and said, hey, would you write something that’s, that’s really aimed at, uh, people who haven’t been yet at all. And so that became the, I, I, I had only planned to write the one book. And then when those two were done, I could see there was really a need um to go deeper into some of these things and a little more nuanced. And so the third volume kind of addresses that. And, and we’re gonna, today our conversation, I’m gonna focus on some of the things that I talked about in the third volume. So if you, if your listeners want more detail, I would point them there. Um, but I, I wanna do this partly, so this is gonna be a little more advanced conversation. I’m gonna assume that if you’re listening to this, that you’ve been to the temple, that you are familiar with it, and um And maybe even you have some questions or, or some concerns with it, and that’s totally OK. I, I really enjoyed uh the two episodes that you’ve done on the Temple and um I found them really interesting. I had to go back, to be honest with you, your first one where you talked about the May 4th, 1842 uh introduction. I had kind of assumed that that was, I had just taken that at face value. So I really appreciated the work you did on that, um. However, that’s being said, I still think Joseph is the origin of most of this and, and for reasons that we’ll discuss today.

[10:36] Michelle: And that’s part of why I was so excited to invite Corey on because I, I have, as I’ve shared, I recently had a Extremely profound experience at the temple that, um, that has, you know, and I, and even as I was doing the work on them, I was not wanting, I, I never have wanted to say the temples are not valid or the nothing, nothing like that. I just have tried to get into, um, trying to discern what is true and what might not be true, because we do know that false doctrines were brought into the temples, right? And so that’s what I’m excited to, to like, like, I feel like has a really good ability to try to say, this has importance because of these reasons. This is connected to other things. So we don’t need to worry. Just like I said in my episodes, whether Solomon built the temple or whether Herod built the temple, right? There was was there truth in the temples, is the question we’re asking, regardless of, of how much we know specific about the origins, what is true. And so, can I ask you a couple of questions, just, uh, based on your introduction? So you said, so you went through in ’85. That was when the penalties were still there. I went through a softer, gentler temple in ’96, you know. And I still, um, I desperately wanted, I still wanted to be a righteous, faithful daughter of God. And so I was very open and eager and wanting to understand something, but I just was overwhelmed by The weirdness, you know? And like, like seeing my fiance in that cap. I was like, what is this? You know, that’s, that’s hard to admit because I still want to be righteous and faithful. I’m really curious. You said you were just overwhelmed with the spirit. Do you know, like, can you give us some insight into maybe why or how, how that happened or what you connected it to or when it happened?

[12:34] Cory Jensen: Well, I, I went in with, I, I had zero expectation of what was going to happen. I really did. I was totally, totally, completely cold. And like I said, as we were literally, as we were walking up the stairs up the sidewalk to go in the Logan Temple, my dad leaned over and he whispered to me. This is what he said. This is my total temple preparation. He said, just remember, all the bows go on the same side. And I was like, what? What are you talking about? I mean, I had no idea that we wore ceremonial clothing. I have no idea if anything was gonna happen. And that was my total temporal preparation.

[13:18] Michelle: You’re a 19 year old young man. You don’t wear bows, right?

[13:21] Cory Jensen: Like I’m like what

[13:22] Michelle: am

[13:22] Cory Jensen: I

[13:22] Michelle: getting myself into? You probably didn’t know if it meant a bow and arrow or like a hair bow or

[13:30] Cory Jensen: I had no idea what he meant. That was, that was the exact quote. But that was my thing. So I um It is, it is unusual. It’s, it’s, you know, because we’re so, everything else in the church is so straightforward. And everything is kind of, um, and, and there, and then we jump into the temple and it’s so symbolic. And we are like a fish out of water. It is such a foreign environment and it does seem really odd and seems strange at first. I totally get that.

[14:04] Michelle: Yeah. And I did spend years delving into the symbolism. Like I even as a homeschool mom started really wanting to help my children be better prepared for the temple than I felt like I was, cause I also, I had a bishop tell me, pay attention to the covenants, just kind of ignore everything else. And I was like, OK, that was my, that was my temple prep, right? And, um, so, so I brought started bringing symbol symbolic thinking into my children into my homeschool, like, what, like all things testify of Christ. So let’s start looking for symbolism around us, right? And I was definitely delving into the symbolism in my decades of going. But you said your very first time. Even with no preparation and with the, um, extremely deep symbolism, some of it very harsh, you know, that you still did feel the spirit. Was that at the veil? Was that in the celestial room, was that just

[14:56] Cory Jensen: throughout? No, it was kind of throughout the whole thing, uh, beginning of the initiatory. I just really had for me, it was a very spiritual experience. Um, I, I really felt the spirit even though it was weird, it was awkward, it was. A little embarrassing. It was very, I mean, it was, I shouldn’t have, but I just really felt the spirit um through that whole process and so Like I said, when I left, I, I didn’t understand it at all. But I, the only thing I left with was the feeling that, OK, there’s something significant here. There’s something, there’s something that the Lord has for me here. And now at this point in my life, I mean that was 40 years ago, um. Yeah, now I, I understand it a whole lot better than I did then. It’s a different, it’s a different experience. But you know, you think about it, I mean, things that we take for granted. If you, if you had never seen a baptism before, or if you had never seen the sacrament ordinance before, you know, and you just walked in on the first time and you saw somebody, why are they dunking that person in the water? Why are they, you know, passing around this little tray with bread and, I mean, it, it wouldn’t, it would seem a little bit odd. Um,

[16:12] Michelle: I, especially when Jesus said, unless you eat of my flesh and drink of my blood, you have no part of me. That like that teaching was as difficult as like the penalties in the temple, right? Like, like, what are you talking about? And yet Jesus said, And then for me, when I found the connections to Isaiah, that gave me so much more insight into what Jesus was talking about, I found deep profundity to that. So I, I guess that’s kind of what you’re saying about the temple as well. When you connect it to scriptural, um, to make the scriptural connections, it gives it so much more. Yes,

[16:49] Cory Jensen: there are, so we’re gonna talk about the penalties a little bit later, um, but there’s, there’s two, the temple and the scriptures, I think, are two halves of the whole. OK. And one without the other is incomplete. The temple is all throughout the scriptures. And, and then you go to the script of the temple, and what does it do? It points you back to the scriptures, and they really are, you don’t understand one completely without the other. Um, uh, uh, I believe it was Andrew Skinner, I might be mistaken, but I think he’s, he made a comment once that all scriptures related to the temple. And at first I was like, yeah, I’m not so sure about that, but the the older I get, and the more I’ve studied, I think he was right. Um, there are so, so many scriptures. Um, John Wells did a beautiful book, um, the Sermon at the Mount and the sermon at the Temple, uh, where he shows that, that Christ’s Sermon on the Mount is a beautiful, it’s a temple text. And it’s an exposition or an expansion, uh, it’s, it’s an explanation of our endowment. Um, but you see example after example in the, in the Book of Mormon. See, we make a big mistake. And, and I’m gonna talk about this a little more detail too, but, um, everything we do in the church is kind of oriented and geared around getting us to the temple and getting us through that experience and then We’re done, right? Yeah, the boxes. All we have to do at that point is just endure to the end, and that means just sitting through as many boring meetings as we can stand and then you’re good,

[18:29] Michelle: right? I’m not doing anything really, really wrong, right? Yeah,

[18:33] Cory Jensen: don’t, don’t mess up too badly and uh you’ll be OK, um. That’s a mistake. We would be much better off to see the temple as a beginning point and not as an ending point because the temple is really inviting us to take a very beautiful journey. And so let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about what and, and that’s, and this is why I say that I think Joseph is behind it because to me, the, the value and the purpose that I see in our temple. And the value and what Joseph was trying to accomplish, their, their parallel, their line so closely, um. I can’t go back in the historical record and make the case that here it it positively absolutely came from Jo. But um but I’ll, I’ll share with you why I believe that it did. OK. Um, I wanna say two other things really quick at the onset. I, I, I just want to acknowledge there are some real struggles that some experience, uh, when it comes to the temple. Um, and, and that can come from a variety of places, you know, 11 possibility is the obscure origins. Another possibility is, um, you know, we’ve got remnants of polygamy there. We have Brigham’s fingerprints still there. Uh, we’ve, you know, we’ve changed these ordinances over time. Um, Some people are troubled because of the Isaiah 24. Um, you know, there’s influence of masonry, uh, the, the, just the whole symbolic ritualistic nature of it, um, you know, 2 Nephi 28, and, and kind of our neglect of the poor in light of some of the extravagant spending we have on temples. So there’s a whole bunch of reasons why people can, um, Can struggle with the temple and and there’s validity. I’m not dismissing those. But I would simply ask the question, and I think you kind of raised this earlier, despite all those challenges, is there still something of value here? And, and to me, the answer to that is resounding yes. um. You know, in, in Christ’s day, the temple at his, in his day was completely corrupt. It was in the hands of a corrupt priesthood. Um, it was, he, he called it a den of thieves. He tried to clean it, cleanse it twice. Uh, he still recognized it as his father’s house, but there were obviously problems. It was not a perfect situation. And yet, following the death of his crucifixion and resurrection and um all of the turmoil and, and following the appearances in the ministry that he gave, Luke ends with a very beautiful verse. Um, this is Luke 24:53, and it’s speaking of the disciples, the apostles, and it says, um, and they were continually in the temple praising and blessing God. That’s how Luke ends. Now, this is the temple that that’s going to be in another 35 years is gonna be raised to the ground because it’s so problematic. But for these disciples, it was still a holy place where they can worship.

[21:54] Michelle: OK. I, I just have to thank you for everything you just said there, um, because First of all, acknowledging, like, I think you did such a good job of sort of encapsulating many of the struggles that many people feel about the temple, that, that I’ve dealt with several of those. But then I, I just love the way you framed all of that, every single part of it. And, um, it made me also want to Bring out, um, Anna and who is the, like, who the prophetess and who was the prophet that saw Jesus? Was it Simeon? I can’t think of his name. And, um, that they, they both served in the temple their entire lives and they were a prophet and a prophetess, right? And And, um, and I do, one thing I really have thought about a lot is how easy it is to find fault. It really is so easy to find fault, and yet it’s so challenging to build something and to build something that nobody can find fault with is utterly impossible. Right? And so, so I think that, I think that while it’s good, I happen to think it’s good to ask the questions and even the really hard questions, and even the really critical questions. But I don’t think we should stop there. So that’s why I was so excited to have this conversation because everything you just introduced, like, just brings tears to my eyes cause that’s you you expressed my heart so well, and I’m so excited to hear this conversation. So, um, anyway, thank you for that. And I do, I do feel like there tends to be also sort of a, um, Sort of a, I, I guess I call it sort of a Jonah energy of people who have, um, you know, seen a new perspective and they’re kind of is a tendency to just kind of find fault and sit and lick their chops waiting for other people to be destroyed or waiting. Do you know what I mean? Finding fault with it. And, and, um, and I get it because many of us feel like, um, we take so much criticism and we take so much heat, and there’s so much unkindness often coming from those who claim to be disciples of Jesus Christ and who, you know, but at the same time, I do feel like there is a beauty in the faith and the Diligence and the willingness, I, I, of the people who of temple attending people. There is so much beauty and goodness there that I think we should be open to seeing, to seeing the full picture and not just getting stuck on the challenges. So thank you for introducing that. Right.

[24:26] Cory Jensen: Well, and that’s not to minimize the challenges and the heartache and the All of that is very real for a lot of, and I do not wish to minimize that in the least. Um, I have my own issues, so to speak, with some, and, and I’ll talk a little bit about some of that. But, um, at the same time, to some degree what we get out of the temple is, is what we bring to it, to, to some degree. And I, and I think it can be, you know, um, a holy place. It has certainly blessed my life. I’ve, I served as an ordinance worker for about 10 years, and for about 14 years I attended weekly, and my wife would tell you, it made me a much better husband, a much better person. It, it strengthened me and got me through some of the most difficult and challenging years of my life, and, um, it blessed my life in countless ways, and I’m so grateful for the temple. So, I’m, I’m a very strong advocate. I want to share with you also really quickly an experience I had, um. I tried to be very careful and prayerful. I mean, the books I wrote, I, I don’t know why I was asked to, to do that. I’m, I’m nobody. I don’t have any, I, I really am. I’m a nobody in the church. I have no position. I have no rank or authority. I, I serve as a member of our bishopric right now, a counselor, but that’s, you know, I, and I don’t aspire to any of that. Um, but I have been a diligent student, and maybe it’s because I am a nobody, and because if you don’t agree with me, you can feel free to just throw it away. That’s totally good. Um, but I tried to be very careful and prayerful about what I included and what I wrote as I, I spent a lot of time on my knees with the Lord asking, um, And felt really inspired in the things that I shared in these books. Uh, I do remember at one point, I’ll share with you a quick experience. I had a question. Uh, and I don’t even remember specifically the topic, but it was a question of should I include this in the book or should I leave it out? Is this something I should talk about or, or would you, or should I not? And I went to the Lord in prayer, and I, I prayed about that for a little while, and, and one day I went to the temple and I was sitting in the celestial room and I was again praying about this, and I was looking for a yes or no answer from the Lord. Uh, that’s all I want. I just, yes, put it in there. No, don’t. And the word of the Lord came to me, and this is what he said. I can quote it exactly, this is years ago, but it’s still emblazoned in my brain. These are his exact words, he said. I would not have my sons and daughters in ignorance any longer. And I’ve, I’ve I’ve thought about that answer a lot. I’ve pondered that a lot in the years that have followed, and I, um, I took it as a yes. So whatever it was that I was questioning, it’s in the book. But I really believe to the core of my soul that, um, you know, the world has changed so much and it’s so much more difficult to place that, that today we, and especially our youth, we need to be grounded in the Book of Mormon and in the temple, and we need to understand it. It’s not enough to understand it the way that our parents and grandparents didn’t, which for the most part wasn’t very well. We really need, this is a house of learning. There are things that the Lord has definitely has there to teach us and um we really need to understand what he um is trying to give us there. So, on that note, if you’re OK, let’s kind of jump in and take a look at kind of the big picture. I want to turn back really quick to, um, and, and we’ll go through this really quickly. I, again, if you’re interested, I, I, I delve into this a lot deeper in completing your endowments so you can go look for it there, but If you go back to Kirtland, um, 1832, uh, in Doctrine Covenant section 88, the Lord gives a commandment to build a temple. And um, 3 times in that section, the Lord promises to visit the saints if they’ll do that. Now, this is interesting because um this is 2 years, I mean, we, we just got the Book of Mormon in 1830, so we’ve only had that 2 years. The church was organized in 1830, so we’re a 2 year old institution. We’re so new. There’s so few members, there’s so few resources, and yet this command comes to build a temple. Again, I think this shows here we have the restoration of the scripture and then we’re getting the other half of this restoration with the temple,

[29:15] Michelle: OK. OK.

[29:17] Cory Jensen: These are, these are two of the first priorities of the restoration. And Joseph Smith understood the purpose. He, he made two statements that I want to share with you. Um, one of them is, uh, he sent a copy of the revelation uh in DNC 88 to William W. Phelps in Missouri, along with an introductory letter. And this letter, I’m gonna read you a little part of this because it shows some of the prophet’s feelings at the time. He wrote, quote, You will see that the Lord commanded us in Kirtland to build a house of God and to establish a school for the prophets. This is the word of the Lord to us, and we must, yeah, the Lord helping us, we will obey. As on conditions of our obedience, he has promised us great things, yeah, even a visit from the heavens to honor us with his own presence. We greatly fear before the Lord lest we should fail of this great honor which our master proposes to confer on us. We are seeking for humility and great faith lest we be ashamed in His presence.

[30:23] Michelle: Wow.

[30:25] Cory Jensen: So that was, that was the Lord’s purpose in the temple was to have a place he could come and meet with his saints. And then Joseph also clarified that um and the Lord stated, I, I want to endow those whom I’ve chosen with power from on high in this house. And Joseph gave this clarification on the nature of that promised endowment, again quoting him, quote, You need a fountain of wisdom, knowledge, and intelligence such as you never had. The world cannot receive the things of God. He can endow you without worldly pomp or great parade. He can give you that wisdom, that intelligence, and that power which characterized the ancient saints and now characterizes the inhabitants of the upper world. So the endowment that we were to receive was not just, it was not simply additional ordinances. Right. It was to be an end, it was to be a greater understanding, a greater revelation of God. Ultimately it was to return and uh to have to be returned to Christ’s presence.

[31:38] Michelle: Hm. I think that’s also in section 97 as well. That’s where I remember finding it. Maybe you get there, so I don’t wanna jump ahead

[31:49] Cory Jensen: if. No, you, you can go ahead. It is, it’s there. It’s in DNC 93 as well. Yeah.

[31:56] Michelle: I, I remember distinctly when it jumped out at me for the first time. Many years ago in ’97, that verse 21 says, Therefore, verily hosith the Lord, let Zion rejoice, for this is Zion, the pure in heart. Let Zion rejoice. And then just a little while later, it says, um, on, I guess it’s in the next section, that is it 98 that said, if my people build a house. Unto me and let no one clean thing come into it, then the pure heart that enter in shall behold my face. Right? And so the temple is not the gospel is not merely the idea that we sing about in, in primary that we’ll live with God again someday. The gospel that Joseph restored. Truly was the power to overcome spiritual and physical death by bringing us back into the presence of God. The literal, it’s the instruction manual, right? The, it gives us the roadmap to be able to accomplish that. Is that, and that’s the purpose of the temple. OK.

[32:58] Cory Jensen: That’s exactly right. It’s, it’s, it’s to prepare us to be redeemed by the Lord. If I were going to summarize the endowment in one verse of scripture. It would be um DNC 93 1. Verily thus sayeth the Lord, it shall come to pass that every soul. That’s all of us. Who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me and calleth on my name and obeyeth my voice and keepeth my commandments, shall my face and know that I am. I know that I am, you know, enduring to the end, what is enduring to the end? The end, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end enduring to Christ. It’s, it’s being, it’s piercing our veil of unbelief and returning to Christ’s presence. If you want to see the endowment in scripture, go look at the brother of Jared’s life.

[33:50] Michelle: Yes, yes,

[33:51] Cory Jensen: that’s the endowment.

[33:53] Michelle: The end doesn’t mean the end of our lives. The end means the final goal. Of this path that we are currently on. And then as it said in 2nd Nephi, when Jesus comes to you, then he’ll give you the next set of instructions, right? But right now, for those who are on this path, the end means the goal that we are trying to accomplish. It’s a It’s, it’s not boredom. It’s a huge audacious opportunity that we are invited to step into, right?

[34:21] Cory Jensen: Exactly, exactly. And so, um, let me, I’m gonna take just a little deviation really quick as on the side because you mentioned this earlier, the, the commandment was, uh, we’re not to let any unclean thing, right? So how did they do that in Kirtland? They didn’t have a Temple recommend interview with a whole bunch of questions and a little card like we do. Um, what they did. They took that as no unclean or, or rather unwashed thing. And so before they went to the temple, they were rebaptized. They took the sacrament, and that’s how they prepared. They recognized that they were going there at um solely as Christ’s guests. I mean, we’re there on his merits and mercy. So we’re, we’re not there because we’re cleansing ourselves. We, we’re very much in need of, let me, let me go to, I’m gonna deviate to for 11 more second. I’m gonna go to uh Samuel. Yeah. 1 Samuel chapter 18. You know, you go to the temple and we’re dressed in funny clothes. We’re given a robe. Um, we’re taught something about covenant relationships in the endowment. Um, there’s a beautiful example of this in 1 Samuel chapter 18. This is speaking about Jonathan and David. And Jonathan, as you recall, is Saul’s son, he’s heir to the throne. Um, he’s next in line, and David now has slain Goliath and David and Jonathan have become friends. And um starting in verse 3 says this, then Jonathan and David made a covenant because he, Jonathan loved him, David, as his own soul. So this covenant is motivated out of the great love that these two men had for one another. And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him and gave it to David and his garments even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle. Now, the Bible doesn’t explain that because it was such a cus it was a um covenant practice of the time, and whoever wrote this just assumed that we would obviously know what that meant. So Jonathan takes his robe and gives it to David. Well, his robe was not something he went down and bought at Walmart on the clearance rack. This was, you know, hand woven, handmade. It would have identified him as the king’s son, as the heirs.

[36:51] Michelle: Isn’t it tied to the coat of many colors of Joseph in Egypt and It’s, it’s the symbol of the birthright, right? The symbol, right,

[37:01] Cory Jensen: but it’s, it’s Jonathan’s identity is, is represented by this robe, and he is here giving his identity or merging his identity with David. He’s heir to the throne, but he’s, he’s sharing that with David. Now his um his sword and his bow, he’s exchanging that with David as well. This is a promise to strengthen and to protect, uh, even at the cost of his own life, his this person he’s entering the covenant with. And, and Jonathan subsequently does perform that. He defends David even when the enemy becomes his own father who’s seeking to kill David. Jonathan risked his life to save David. And then his girdle, this, this would have been a belt, um, or we would have called a belt or a sash or something to hold the rope and was symbolic again of um. Uh, they, these often held a little, uh, purse, held their coins or whatever they monetary they were carrying with them. This would have been a symbol of his wealth and his. So, in this exchange, in this covenantal exchange in this relationship, the idea behind this is these two separate identities are becoming one, and that literally everything is being shared between them. And and you see, you see this again when um in the peril of the prodigal son. You know, after the, the prodigal has left, he’s been at home, and he, he finally wakes up in the gutter and decides, I’m gonna come back home, and as he’s returning, the scriptures have a beautiful, there’s a beautiful phrase there. It says his father, while he was yet a long ways off, saw him and ran to meet him. And then what’s the son’s response? The son is, you know, I’ve sinned, I’m not worthy to be called your son any longer. But the father is not going to hear of that. He says, bring forth the best robe and the ring and the shoes and we’re, you know, and clothe him. This is restoring him into the household, restoring his position. And so we, in my opinion, would be best served when we go to the temple to view ourselves. As prodigals in returning and recognize when we’re being clothed, whose robe is it and whose righteousness is it that we’re being covered by. It’s it’s beautiful. Uh, it’s Christ and, and Christ is heir to the throne, but he’s willing to share with us all that he has.

[39:31] Michelle: I love that. Yeah, the, the uncleanness. One connection that I’m making from what you’re saying is that the uncleanness could be interpreted in the Old Testament way, right? Of the rituals of cleanliness that they had that just meant of the earth, or, uh, it wasn’t bad or good, it was just a different domain, right? And so in a way, the, the gatekeeping at the temple. That’s something that I have found also to be somewhat problematic, that it’s sort of this, forgive me for being crass, I don’t mean to be, but sort of this idea of we have power over your connection to all of your loved ones, over your connection to God. And if you have paid a sufficient amount of money and tithes, and if you don’t drink coffee, then you can have access to those things because we will let you, right? Like, part of my feeling has been if we actually have the power that we claim to have, we are in so much trouble because of How we’ve used it in some ways. Does that make sense? And, and I’m again, I’m sorry for being

[40:41] Cory Jensen: crass. No, it does, and I agree with you and um it’s actually kind of comical if you look, I had, I had a list of Temple recommend questions from like 1920 or something at one point. And it was, it was really funny to read. It was actually there were questions on there like, have you, uh, taken water from your neighbor out of you know?

[41:05] Michelle: Do you, do you let your cattle graze in your neighbor’s property and do you Shower, like, at least once a week or something. And, and then Brigham Young even went with that question, said, I, I tried it. It’s not for me. I don’t like it. So Brigham Young actually couldn’t have passed his own question because he didn’t like to shower. He didn’t like to wash himself.

[41:26] Cory Jensen: Yeah.

[41:28] Michelle: It’s interesting.

[41:29] Cory Jensen: It is interesting. And, and there’s some of that that I definitely don’t agree with. But, um, that aside, I think the other danger is it can give us a sense of false pride. Yes. Where we feel like, oh, I’ve earned this, or I’m worthy of this, and I’m not, instead of recognizing it for the grace that it is.

[41:47] Michelle: Uh, yes, and, and that along with that danger is I’m temple worthy, and that means that I’m worthy of the celestial kingdom on my own merits, right? We kind of, it’s it’s works a little bit. And then also we have a tendency, like you said, to set the temple up as the end. And so to kind of think that attending the temple does the thing. That’s the important thing. Like I went to, I was married to the temple, therefore, I, rather than recognizing that it’s a symbolic invitation to a spiritual, to a literal spiritual experience that we can. That we can have. And that’s the actual thing. The temple is just pointing us toward something greater, right, at its best.

[42:26] Cory Jensen: That’s so perfectly said. The temple is a, it’s an invitation. It’s a spiritual creation that then needs to proceed a literal creation in your life. The things that we receive in the temple are symbols, but we need to receive the actualities.

[42:43] Michelle: Yes, yes, yes, exactly.

[42:45] Cory Jensen: This is why I really don’t like. Actually, I’m gonna say this. I really hate Brigham Young’s description of the endowment. OK. It’s the, it’s the, it’s the one we’re all familiar with that, you know, your endowment is to, to receive all the, uh, ordinances in the Lord in the house of the Lord that to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father passing all the angels, blah blah blah blah blah.

[43:09] Michelle: Right. Like we have to remember the codes to get past the, yeah, yeah, it’s,

[43:14] Cory Jensen: yeah. It turns it into, OK, these are a bunch of magic passwords. Well,

[43:19] Michelle: memorize them perfectly.

[43:20] Cory Jensen: Yeah. And we, and we make the temple an end in itself. Um, and, and honestly, if we thought if we really sat and thought about that. The absurdity of it becomes apparent. I mean, are you gonna tell me that somebody can live a righteous good life, and, but they don’t know they’re lacking a little bit of information and they’re not gonna, and somebody else can be, can get online now on Google and can memorize a few things and they can live a horrible wicked depraved life and they’re gonna walk back to God. That’s it’s it’s, it’s nonsensical. But when we understand that Um, what we’re given in the temple is a symbol. And it’s symbolic of certain experiences and and gifts and things that we need to receive on our way back to God’s presence. Then Then the statement is true, because if I’ve received the reality, not just the symbol, and then, then I’m going to be permitted back. And the gatekeeper is Christ, and he can’t be fooled. So you’re not gonna, it’s not enough just to possess the symbol. We need to have the actuality. For example, let me give you just one little example. The second token that we receive of the priesthood is symbolic. One of the symbols of that is the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, OK. It doesn’t matter if I’ve got, if I’ve received the physical component in the temple. What matters? Have I received, have I been baptized by fire in the Holy Ghost? If I have, then yes, I’m going to proceed. I’m going to move forward. If I haven’t, then I can’t go any further until I receive that. Um, and there’s no way you can fake that.

[45:06] Michelle: OK, that was, so I can I, I wanna ask you kind of a difficult question, something that I pondered on for years when I was attending the temple frequently, and if you don’t feel like answering it, that’s just fine. I, one thing I wondered. Like, we’ll use the baptism of fire for an example. I think that we have a tendency to think the temple is necessary in order to allow the, um, ordin. I mean, I mean, there are the different levels of understanding, right? Like, like, I think the basic understanding, I would say misunderstanding is the temple is the actual thing, right? If I have the temple, that’s all I need. It’s the end. But, um, I think the better understanding is, you know, the actual thing is the actual thing. The temple symbolically points toward that. But it, but I don’t know that the temple is necessary before we can have the actual thing. Does that make sense? Like, can only people who go through the temple have the baptism of fire? I just can’t believe that that’s true because there are so many people. In the world to have the baptism of fire.

[46:07] Cory Jensen: Right. No, I would, I would totally agree with you. Uh, and, and you look at, you know, the scriptures, here, here again, you know, sometimes people say, well, I don’t see the scriptures in the temple. Well, maybe you don’t, but maybe you don’t directly in so many words, but look at how many instances there are of baptism of fire in the scriptural accounts and, and yes, so I would agree with you. Um, OK. And so that’s a short answer. Let me give you a little longer answer to your same question. Let’s go back, let’s return back to Joseph, OK, and Kirtland. And we know what happened, um, and by and large, the saints did not receive, they, they didn’t receive what the Lord had promised and what he was willing to give. OK, I, I mean, there were, there was an exception. Joseph obviously returned. We have section 110, and, and the Lord states in Section 110, there was an endowment given. And I, and that endowment was the spiritual experience, and I think people were endowed to the extent that they were prepared at the time. But, um, the bigger goal of, of having these people prepared to return to the Lord’s present didn’t happen. And so we were given another opportunity in Navo and again. As you pointed out in your episode on the Navo Temple, we did, that did not happen. And so I, I think the Lord outlined and explained, and I think Joseph understood, um, Let’s go, let’s go to section 84 in the Doctrine of the Covenants, because I think the parallel between um I think the parallel between ancient and then modern or modern Israel or our day is so striking. So here’s this is DNC 84. I’ll start in verse 23, um. And go to

[48:02] Michelle: 21 and 22 are actually pretty interesting what we’re talking about,

[48:05] Cory Jensen: but they are. So there’s ordinances, there’s ordinances that we need and I’m gonna circle back to those in just a second because those are, those aren’t necessarily just the temple ordinances. Those are the ordinances that we’ve we’ve been speaking of baptism of fire, those types. Being a, I want to distinguish between a symbolic ordinance that we something we receive or we learn, or we’re taught about in the temple versus a lived ordinance.

[48:31] Michelle: I love that. OK.

[48:32] Cory Jensen: When when we actually receive these experiences that were being taught symbolically. OK, so the, the, the lived ordinance is what’s going to prepare you to return to the presence of the Lord. The symbolic ordinance is, is helping. It’s, it’s going to teach you, but it’s not sufficient by itself. It, it, we’re, we’re in great, we’re. In my opinion, we’re ungrateful to Joseph and to the Lord if we don’t receive what they’ve left for us and and receive it with gratitude and receive it with an open heart and, and receive all the value we can from it. But when we turn it into the end. We’ve just cut ourselves short.

[49:18] Michelle: So this, the temple is almost the study guide. It’s the cheat sheet. It’s like the road map showing us. OK. It’s

[49:29] Cory Jensen: the blueprint.

[49:32] Michelle: It’s yeah. If I go, if I go with the with the road map, one that’s making sense in my right right now, I can look on the roadmap and say, OK, there’s this town, there’s this town, this town. But that’s not the same as driving through those towns, right? So, so we’re looking at, it can give Uh a jumpstar, a heads up, uh, understanding if we understand it correctly, but it’s the actual trip that we are looking for. It’s the actual thing.

[49:56] Cory Jensen: OK. Exactly. Well said. But the other value that it has is when we understand it and when we ask the Lord, he can show us where we’re at.

[50:04] Michelle: OK. OK.

[50:05] Cory Jensen: No where we, where we are and what we still lack. And, and I’ve outlined this in a lot more detail again in the book, so I’ll point you back there, but you’re exactly, you, you’re exactly correct. But here’s, um, this is the Lord’s explanation of, of what happened in ancient Israel. Um, again, this is DNC 84:23. Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God. But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence. Therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fullness of his glory. Therefore he took Moses out of their midst and the holy priest did also, but the lesser priesthood remained. So, here you have um an interesting situation. Moses had stood in the presence of the Lord. He wanted to bring everyone up to the same status. And to receive the same same blessing, and yet. The children of Israel at the time said, no, no, no, no, no, no, Moses, we’re, that’s, you go talk to the Lord for us and you come back and tell us what he said. They weren’t willing to rise up and in, in refusing what was offered, they actually angered the Lord and, and so Moses was taken away, and there was a lesser law that remained. Now, what’s in, there’s a, there’s two things that are really interesting about that. One is that within that lesser law and within the ordinances of Moses and within all that they were left, there was an opportunity and an invitation to still rise up and receive the Lord. And you see specific, the Book of Mormon here is a one is again a beautiful example because you see Lehi who lived hundreds of years after Moses. In the opening chapter, he rises up and returns to the presence of the Lord. He receives the blessing that Moses sought for all the children of Israel, despite the fact that he lived many, many centuries after Moses. So there were isolated successes. Um, but by and large, what did the children of Israel do? They took what they were given, they turned it into an end in itself. They made it salvviic, and they absolutely failed to recognize what it was. And you see that in the Book of Mormon very clearly. You see both, um, you see both paths actually. Uh, for example, Abenaai, when he’s speaking with the wicked priest of King Noah, he says, well, what do you teach the people? And there, well, we teach the law of Moses. OK, well, does that save you? What do you say? Yeah, that’s what’s, that’s how salvation, and he’s like, no, you idiots, you’ve missed the whole point. And he tries to outline it to him. But you see, juxtaposed against that, um, in Jerem, I think it’s one, Jerem Jerem only has one chapter. I think it’s verse 11, 1 or let me see really quick. Um, Oh, it’s verse 11. So, the prophets and the priests and the teachers did labor diligently exhorting with all long suffering the people to diligence, teaching the law of Moses, and the intent for which it was given, persuading them to look forward onto the Messiah and to believe in him to come as though he had already was. So here you have two different groups in the Book of Mormon. One group that’s teaching law of Moses, and why are we doing this? What’s the purpose? Where is this taking us? So we understand, so we’re not just sitting here in ignorance. The other group is sitting in ignorance, feeling like, oh, we’re going through these rituals and these rituals are gonna save us.

[53:57] Michelle: Right. I, can I add 225, 25 I know that you, this one is the one that I also usually go to for this for this end was the law given, wherefore the law hath become dead unto us and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith. Yet we keep the law because of the commandments and we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, right? The law is, isn’t the end. It’s the means. Christ is the end, right? It’s the same lesson. OK.

[54:23] Cory Jensen: Right. So, but again, the big mistake was they turned the ordinances they have into an end.

[54:29] Michelle: They turned the means into an end, and then worshiped the end. And that kind of is symbolic with like, maybe the golden calf to some extent. They are missing the mark in a really important way, right? They are worshiping the creation rather than the Creator. It’s, it kind of does fulfill all of those prophecies, doesn’t it? Like the danger. OK.

[54:50] Cory Jensen: So that’s. Some people, yes, go ahead, go ahead. Well, I,

[54:54] Michelle: I, I feel like I, I, I should just let you come on and present. We just so you know, Corey has suggested we maybe want to do this in two parts. So maybe this will be a two-part conversation and um I hope it’s OK if we go back and forth. But one thing that’s really struck me in this conversation that I’ve thought about before. When you started out talking about Joseph Smith in 1830 publishing the Book of Mormon with Martin Harris is, like, what an unthinkable thing to, to do, right? He, he wrote it in or translated it, however it worked in like 67 days or something, and then had the money to publish it. That was an impossible thing to be asked to do, right? And then right on the back of that, he was asked, they were asked to build a temple. And what I’m finding to be, first of all, that just gives me such that just increases my testimony of Joseph Smith, someone being thinking he could accomplish these two things that are insane, right? As he was this young. But then there’s also the more individual and then the more communal, right? Because publishing the Book of Mormon, he could do kind of on his own with just a few people coming to help. Whereas building a temple required an entire community and really was the establishment of Zion. Goes together with that. And I’m seeing a similarity with what you’re talking about, about how we have the opportunity to come into the presence of God. Because Joseph first did that individually and then tried to do it as a community, just as Moses did, tried to do it in, I mean, he accomplished it individually. I accomplished is the wrong term, but you know what I mean, right? He was brought into the presence of God himself and then tried to establish a community that would come into the presence of God. And that’s what I see Joseph Smith trying to do. And that’s what I see. The brother of Jared trying to do and that’s we have the example of them accomplishing that one time in the Book of Mormon, but even that didn’t reach the next step of being translated of right, that’s the overcoming physical death and rejoining the city of Enoch, for example. And so I find it to be interesting that there are different. I don’t know. Like, I’ve thought about this a lot because the individual level is already this, this huge, um, opportunity that seems overwhelming to often to people, right? I think that that’s what I often read is like, oh, well, God gives spiritual experiences to the prophets, but not to me, right? It’s our lack of faith that is our first obstacle. But then once individuals accomplish that, it seems so much harder to do it as a community. And so I would love to hear your thoughts on that.

[57:21] Cory Jensen: Yes, you’re right. And yet we’re promised what’s going to return before the Lord comes back. Zion, and Zion is the pure in heart, those who can dwell with God. So there are going to be enough individuals rise up and receive this that some community will be able to be established in return. But I, but for me, for all of us right now, we’ve got to first individually worry about preparing ourselves and then trying to help others as, as we can and as the Lord directs. um OK. I, I think, you know, going back to um Going back to Joseph again. There is such a parallel here because, uh, you know, you look at the events of Navu and Joseph tried and tried and tried and tried to get them to finish the Nabu temple because the restoration couldn’t be completed without, without, without a temple, without the Lord’s returning, without the restoration of, of a fullness. And, you know, and, and Moses failed, and yet they were left with something lesser, but it was enough to point them to the right direction to receive the fullness. I think, and this is to me why the temple is uh inspired. I believe in and you, you know, people are welcome to disagree with me, but in my view, I believe Joseph knew his time was short. I believe he knew he wasn’t, he had, he had stood in the presence of the Lord like Moses. He had tried um twice in Kirtland and in Navo to prepare and to bring up people into the Lord’s presence, and he had, like Moses, he had failed twice. And I think he recognized that, and I think he knew his time was short. And so what can he leave? What could he leave for future generations. That wouldn’t be corrupted, that wouldn’t be um completely changed and obliterated and lost. And, and what he left was something lesser. It wasn’t the fullness that he could have given us. We could have received a lot more in Navu. We failed. But, um, he left us the roadmap to, to get there, to rise and receive it. And whether we make that journey is up to us, but the first thing we got to do is start seeing that as a beginning point. The temple is an invitation. It’s not the end. When we turn it into an end, we’re making the same mistake that the stupid priests of Noah did. And, you know, assuming that, oh, this stuff’s gonna save me, and it’s, it’s, it’s not that, it’s um it’s trying, the Lord is trying to teach you, and he’s trying to invite you to rise up and receive the real thing. And he’s doing that through ordinances. Joseph essentially left us a trail of bread crumbs. Thankfully, Now, Brigham put his fingerprints all over him, OK, granted. But I think the core is still there. And I think it’s been preserved to the degree that it has largely because it wasn’t understood and was, you know, so it wasn’t corrupted more.

[1:00:37] Michelle: I’m seeing so many connections. Just that’s how I think about the book of Isaiah, right? Like Isaiah was left intact because no one knew, no one really understood what it meant that it testified to Christ when so many other things were destroyed. And I again, I just, one of the, one of my scriptures has become no one hallowed hand can stop this work from progressing. And so, even Brigham. Um, injecting all of his false doctrines into the temple, which is what I think happened, couldn’t stop the power of God from continuing on for those who are willing to have eyes to see and hearts to hear, I mean, ears to hear and hearts to understand, right? So it’s still there for us to discover and find, which is that the invitation is still there, and that’s beautiful to recognize. OK.

[1:01:28] Cory Jensen: It is. And, and I’m not alone in saying that. I mean, both uh David O McKay and Bruce R. McConkie taught that the temple, seeing for what it is, the temple is a step by step ascent back into the eternal presence.

[1:01:40] Michelle: OK.

[1:01:41] Cory Jensen: Lord. So, um, yeah, so if we can start with that with kind of the end in mind, then we can, then we can step back and say, OK, what is, what is the Lord trying to teach us? What is he trying to give us? There And, and you’re right. Something else you said earlier, you know, we, we tend to believe, oh, these kinds of spiritual experiences are just reserved to, for others. We read about them in the scriptures, but I never have that kind of a thing. Well, Um, you know, that’s part of our unbelief. It’s part of our, if you look at that term in the Book of Mormon, unbelief is not, it, it can be disbelief, but it’s more often false beliefs. And, you know, through the traditions we’ve been handed through, um, growing up in this corrosive celestial world, we all inherit a lot of unbelief. And it’s, it’s mistaken beliefs about ourselves, about God, about the gospel, about, um, the church, about all these things we have unbeliefs. And sometimes we hold on to those traditions really, really, really tightly, even in the face of truth, and we’re resistant to that. But repentance, in my view, is largely turning to the Lord and letting go of our unbeliefs, replacing them with belief which is based on truth, and then acting upon that. And the reason that is so important is because we’re acting, faith is simply our belief put into action. And if our faith is based on false. False notions, it’s not going to yield fruit.

[1:03:24] Michelle: And that’s why it’s not true faith. Faith is a hope for things which are not seen, which are true, and faith has to be effective to actually be faith, right? Faith leads to faith also is not an end. It’s a means. OK.

[1:03:38] Cory Jensen: And, and the Lord talks about that as, uh, in, in ether, you know, when we pierce, when we Gentiles pierce our veil of unbelief, then we’ll be given these greater things and the and the temple is the best um tool we have in my view, in that journey along with this.

[1:03:58] Michelle: OK, OK, I guess a lot because for me the Book of Mormon is the best tool because I find it embedded everywhere, you’re saying in conjunction like if we combine the two that we see more. OK.

[1:04:10] Cory Jensen: I don’t want to we can’t if you separate them both, you’ve you’ve got it’s kind of incomplete.

[1:04:16] Michelle: OK. OK. Yeah, I’m totally open to hearing this and I’m having so many, you know, like, because I, before I went on my journey, my more challenging journey with the temple. Like this is, you, you know, like I definitely saw, um, going through the veil into the presence of God as being this symbolic invitation, like the, the parallels perfectly with the Book of Mormon. I think that’s what you’re saying, right? Like they’re both showing us the same path that we are called to. And, OK, OK.

[1:04:48] Cory Jensen: Yeah. And if you notice, there’s no mention of death. So one of the mistakes I made for a long time, OK, I, I’m slow. Other people really, really fast. It took me like 10 or 15 years before it was like, oh wait a minute. This isn’t about history. This is our story. This is Adam and Eve is just a symbol for each of us, and this is our journey and this is, this is supposed to be teaching me. I mean, I sat through a history lesson for the 1st 10 years. Right. You know,

[1:05:19] Michelle: historical component is completely irrelevant and unimportant. That’s not why it’s recorded. It’s not telling us about creation. It’s telling us about us, our journey. That’s why each of us is Adam and Eve. And I love, I can’t remember what I read for the first time that what we have in the temple and Moses and Abraham and Genesis are different according to someone, are different temple ceremonies that have been recorded. I thought that was kind of interesting as well. Yeah, you know, that it’s like this temple ceremony is an everyman’s story. Yes, it’s not important. The the literal story is telling what’s important is what it tells us about ourselves.

[1:05:57] Cory Jensen: Yeah, and when we go with that mindset, then the Lord can start to, and when we have some background, OK? This is another huge mistake we make. I think it’s like the, the story in Acts is that um Is it Phillip that’s that’s that sees the eunuch in the carriage and he’s reading Isaiah.

[1:06:16] Michelle: Oh, I can’t remember, but go ahead.

[1:06:19] Cory Jensen: That’s. Um, there’s a beautiful story at the beginning of Acts. I believe it’s Philip, if I’m remembering correctly, but there’s this eunuch, he’s riding in this carriage, he’s reading from the book Scroll of Isaiah, and the spirit prompts Philip and he walks up next to him and he says, hey, You know, what are you reading? And he says, well, I’m reading the scroll of Isaiah. Oh, well, do you understand it? No. How am I supposed to understand this unless somebody will teach me? So Phillip jumps up in the carriage and he rides along with him, and he teaches him. And, and to a large degree, we’re all the same with the temple. We need some help because once we have, once we have some building blocks put into place, then the Lord can start to really open our eyes and we can start to apply it individually and personally in our lives. Um, and that’s been kind of the intent of my books is to hopefully help give people that background so that they can, can make that journey.

[1:07:14] Michelle: That’s great. OK.

[1:07:16] Cory Jensen: And there are a lot of things that we can be taught. I wanna, um, Let me, let me shift gears on you for just a minute if that’s OK. I want to kind of circle back to two things that you’ve uh alluded to and brought up, um. One of them is the signs are the penalties, excuse me, that were removed and um and then kind of the idea of the just changing ordinances. Um, One of the things that the temple teaches us is a pattern. Uh, there, there’s a lot of things. There’s a pattern there showing us to return to the presence of the Lord. There’s a pattern showing us of, um, how to ascend of, of, uh, a true pattern of condescension and ascension for serving, for learning and growing. There’s a pattern taught us there of how to ascend and become like our heavenly parents. There’s also a beautiful, I think the most beautiful testimony of the gospel is found in the endowment of Christ. And, and let me tell, and I’m sad because we’ve taken out part of it. So, let, let me tell you what I mean. One of the patterns that we’re taught and, and, and here again, the Lord calls us a house of learning. So the question, what is he trying to teach us? Well, there’s a whole bunch of things. One of the, one of the lessons is I think there’s a true eternal pattern of creation fall and atonement. And I think we see that in the broader gospel, but I think we see that in our individual lives as well. Let me give you a couple of examples. We may, as, uh, in our relation in our marriage relationship, we may have this beautiful creation period of courtship and a honeymoon and a wonder, everything is all wonderful and fine and glorious and then all of a sudden, you know, we get 10 years down the road in our marriage and bam, some, you know, there’s a problem or there’s a huge thing and we have this fall, and we go through a really difficult time and a struggle and sometimes, you know, there’s a separation or divorce even and the, the process gets terminated. But um I, I think we can, we can find and work through and have a beautiful atonement and come together in a deeper, more profound way than was possible previously. Um, I mean, we see the same thing and so often in raising children, you know, beautiful childhood, that’s this creative period that’s just so glorious and then they turn into teenage monsters and get into all kinds of trouble and you know, we’ve had Several wayward children that are, and that can be really heart-wrenching as a parent, and there’s uh um But hopefully later, you know, in later years there can be an atonement coming back together.

[1:10:03] Michelle: Um, on both sides. I just have to clarify sometimes it’s the parents also both sides recognizing there’s value here and we can let go of our judgments and expectations and demands on both sides and uh

[1:10:16] Cory Jensen: yes, and sometimes those things are to teach us as parents. I mean. I have a daughter who has struggled with a lot of things, and she has um saved me in many ways. I mean, she’s taught me things I could not have learned any other way, and I’m so grateful for her. Um, because of that, even though it’s been a hard, gut-wrenching, difficult road, um, I think the same, we can find the same thing in our faith and our testimony, you know, we have this beautiful phase where we’re in this creative, wonderful, everything is perfect and glorious period, and then sometimes we get the coin gets flipped over and we see the other side of it and all of a sudden there’s a big mess and we go through this fall and uh. You know, there can be betrayal and disillusionment and all kinds of feelings there that we have to work through, but I, I hope that if you’re there, you can hold on to the hope for an atonement because it’s actually that fall is actually a step forward. Um, it feels so awful sometimes. The Dark Knight of the soul is, it’s, um, Sometimes indescribably difficult.

[1:11:27] Michelle: In each of these, in each of these situations it is, and I, what I’m appreciating is if we will continue faithful during that period, trusting that there is something there of value, whether I, and I’m not, everybody has to follow the spirit, right? So, but I know that in my marriage, in those difficult times, Being able to hold on to something of value, right? And see that there’s good there. And then, and the same thing with the church and the gospel being and then you, you embark on that incredibly difficult work, which requires discernment of separating out the baby from the bathwater, right? The, and, and, and, and then what you come. Out with is a much more, a much clearer picture of what the value is, what you don’t need to worry about, what needs to be fixed, right? And, and, and you can be that much more, um, that much more powerful in your intention and your understanding. I do see all of these as a step forward. I, I appreciate how you’ve laid that out.

[1:12:31] Cory Jensen: Well, and, and I think that’s an eternal pattern that the temple and teaches us. So, uh, so the question is, It’s pretty easy to see the creation in the endowment. It’s pretty easy to see the fall in the endowment. Where is the atonement?

[1:12:49] Michelle: Let, let me ask you one more question, because I also, I find this pattern described by, um, I believe John when he says, sweet as honey on the lips, bitter as gall in the belly, right? And I see this both Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ having their experiences with God being told this is what you’re going to do, and then they go start doing it and it’s brutally brutally difficult, right? And I think many of us can, can relate to that. Pattern in every way and so, so anyway, I’m just finding this everywhere. I, I completely agree with you and I think in all of those instances it’s used to, it’s useful to look for the atonement. Maybe that’s a harder part to see for.

[1:13:30] Cory Jensen: It, it is, especially in that, especially when you’re going through that, that dark night of the soul, that all, period, that is, it’s a difficult, we’re in a lone and dreary world and we’re very isolated and we’re very alone and it is dang hard. But then we face the uh we face all kinds of falls, we face the adversary, we face all kinds of adversity, we face, it’s, it’s a difficult, risky, hard time.

[1:13:59] Michelle: It, yes, it is. And it, it’s kind of that Abraham, like, like, no, no religion can have the power to save us unless it takes everything from us. It’s kind of that idea. And I do, because of what I said before, I do need to clarify. I do think that there is redemption, even if, like, I don’t want to make it sound like in the marriage analogy that if you divorce, there’s not the chance for redemption. There absolutely is. And that’s what some people might be led to do. It’s just being led by God, right? And the redemption can be The healing and the establishment of a new relationship that is right, or and the same, the same in all of these, even if someone is excommunicated from the church or chooses to leave the church, that doesn’t mean that there’s not also still that redemption, redemptive pattern. I just needed to clarify that so that people don’t feel hurt by what I said.

[1:14:49] Cory Jensen: No, certainly. I, I don’t want anyone to feel judged or criticized or any anything by talking. I, I’m, I’m speaking in the generality of a pattern. Yes, and how that pattern manifest for us individually can be very, very different and and can be from God in in many different cases,

[1:15:09] Michelle: which is exactly why we don’t judge. We follow God on our own path and we don’t judge another person’s path because we don’t know, right?

[1:15:15] Cory Jensen: Yeah, yeah, and, and that’s why we’re told not to. It’s it’s. I, I would never, I consider the space between any individual and the Lord as sacred space. I consider the space between a husband and wife as sacred space. There are two places I never ever want to insert myself or, or go, and that’s between a husband and wife or between any individual and the Lord. I just I love that. None of us belong there. Those are sacred spaces. Um, but, but as you say, this fall period can be, it, it’s a death and a rebirth. I mean, it’s a, it’s a very Difficult and um. And gut-wrenching thing, but it’s where the growth, it’s where the, it’s what we came here for. Yes. And it’s only possible here in this. That’s the condescension. It’s only possible. But as you also said, we need to recognize that there is a path forward. There is an there’s a subsequent ascension that can have. Whatever the consequences and whatever the fallout of, of everything that we go through in that fall period, there is a way back, there is a way forward. And and that’s the hope that we hold on to.

[1:16:32] Michelle: I love it. That’s also what I find in Isaiah. Sorry, I keep just the Isaiah, when you read it through, it just is this pattern of assent descent, ascent to dissent, right? And that’s, that is what our lives are made up of, and that is what Jesus Christ represents in its complete full full in the fullest way possible. So, OK. So to bring us back to the temple,

[1:16:53] Cory Jensen: it’s almost a spiral down and a spiral up back up, but, but when we ascend back, there’s there’s great purpose in that because we don’t ascend to the same place. We ascender that’s the only way to ascend to a higher state, to a higher level. So, so going back to the uh to the ceremony of the endowment, in the ceremony, it’s easy to see the creation, it’s easy to see the fall, the atonement is less obvious. And unfortunately, so part of the atonement comes at the veil, but part of the atonement we’ve um removed, it was in the penalties.

[1:17:34] Michelle: Oh, Are you OK to talk about that? Can we talk about them now that they’re not there? How do, what are the rules?

[1:17:41] Cory Jensen: So, here’s the thing, um, for those of you who may not be aware, prior to, in 1990, there were major revisions to the temple ceremony, and uh one of the things that were changed, um, was removal of penalties that have been there previously. Now, I’m not going to disclose what those were, but I’m gonna talk about what they represented, because I think that that’s the important thing. Unfortunately, this is a place that I think perhaps had Brigham, I, I’m, I wanna be very, very careful. I think there are definitely places Brigham left fingerprints that should not have been left. Some of those things have correctly been moved. For example, as you’ve talked about, you know, the teachings on Blood atonement, the, um, the oath of vengeance, some of those things that Brigham Young obviously left that had no business being there. Fortunately, we have removed and gotten rid of. Some people felt the penalties were the same, um. They made people uncomfortable. Uh, there was a survey sent out in 1990 that ascertained members’ feelings on the Temple endowment and following that survey, there were a bunch of changes made, and one of the changes was the removal of the penalties. I think the penalties had 3 or 4 purposes and I’m uh I’m actually sad that they were removed. OK,

[1:19:05] Michelle: I’ve heard, you know, I’ve heard other people say that and so it seems that there is this that’s possible.

[1:19:12] Cory Jensen: So the way they presented um. So they were presented as um A severe, uh. Admonition, covenant reminder to keep um certain things sacred in the temple, not to not to disclose them.

[1:19:33] Michelle: And it, I think part of the challenge, they felt like a threat, possibly, like a right or a warning. And, and it also, I think people have had issues about like, secret combinations and secret oaths that it talks about in the Book of Mormons. So it can be hard to discern those, to separate those out. Like there are good secret oaths. The Book of Mormon doesn’t really leave room for that. So anyway, that’s maybe a question you can address as you’re discussing this.

[1:20:00] Cory Jensen: So, um, The way they were I think there was a couple, I think there were 43 or 4 purposes. I think one of the purposes and really the only one that people kind of came away with and that made people uncomfortable, I think there’s a true principle that the more light and truth we acquire, and the nearer we, we become to God, the more kind of accountable we become in a way, or If if we depart, for, for example, we’re told that by Christ, you know, after you’ve received certain experiences, after you’ve been baptized by fire and had certain things, if, if you then choose to leave, it would be better for you if you hadn’t know me. You know, you’re going to be, you’re going to be worse off. Covenants anciently always had a penalty associated with failing to re, you know, when the, in the Book of Mormon, they, they, they ran forward and they rent their garments and they said, we’re gonna promise to do this and if we don’t, you know, may God rend us the way we’ve rent. So there’s a, there’s a little grain of truth there that um We should recognize and we should be, and we should acknowledge. Unfortunately, that’s all that people saw and um. Uh so fortunately and unfortunately, fortunately, the penalties were tied to not res not revealing certain things. They, they were an easy, it wasn’t like, OK, if you break the law of chastity. Right. This is what’s gonna happen to you. You’re, you’re gone. It wasn’t that. It was, um, you covenant not to reveal certain things. That’s something anybody could do, and the penalty was tied to that. It was, look, I’m, I’m not going to reveal this. Uh, I would rather die than reveal this penalty, you know, reveal this thing. It, it still was presented in kind of a weird way and made people uncomfortable. And if the only purpose was as a severe um Method of maintaining secrecy, then why was there not just 11 time, one point and covered the whole thing like, you know what, keep this whole thing secret. That wasn’t how they were presented. There were 3 penalties. There were 1 associated, there was, there were 2 in the ironic portion, and then there was 1 in the beginning, in the first token of the Melchizedek, but there was nothing associated with the final one. And that gives us, starts to give us a clue about, wait, maybe there’s something more here that these were trying to teach us, and their fact was, and, and part of it was um It was teaching us the ironic penalties were related to the head and the heart. And they were teaching us about the conditions of mortality. They were teaching us about, we were subject to because we’re here, we’re subject to the fall, we’re subject to justice, we’re subject to death and sin, and that needs to be overcome. So it was testifying about the conditions of mortality, but more importantly, it was testifying about Christ. It was the atonement. Christ was paying the penalty for the mortality, for the conditions of mortality. Christ was taking on Himself, the bands of death, the bands of justice. He was taking on our weakness and infirmity and our failings. And it was also testifying of the dual nature of his suffering, that he suffered both in the garden and on the cross, that he suffered both, we could say, body and spirit or mind and heart. He, he, it was this dual nature of this, he suffered as the um As the perpetrator of sin and of this as the victim of sin. He understands, uh, he understands everything that we go through because he descended below it all. And the primary purpose of those penalties was to testify of the price that Christ paid to redeem us. OK, that was why they were there. And, and that was their intent. Now, the third one, and that was under the ironic portion, that was the law, that was this what we’re subject to. The 3rd penalty was not really a penalty, but it was representative of the effects of Christ’s atonement. It was opening the bowels of mercy. The sword of justice is now being set aside, and the bowels of mercy are being extended. Christ has taken upon himself all of this and has covered us. And so the first two testified of the price he paid, the 3rd 1 testified of the effects. The now with the 4th token and sign and name and everything, there was no penalty. And the reason was because at that point in the endowment, we are now in a position to reach up to our Lord, who’s 3 levels removed from us, and to petition to send our prayers up on high, and to petition Him to redeem us, to rescue us. And so he responds to that petition at that point in the endowment by meeting us at the Vale. And at the veil, and, and he talks about his sufferings in DNC 19, he talks about his sufferings being his preparations. So he’s completed his preparations for us. He’s paid these prices, he’s done his work. But the atonement now can be completed at the veil, and it’s completed as we reach through to the Lord, through the mark of representing justice. We’re subject to it, and he reaches out to us through the mark representing mercy, extending it to us. And an embrace that combines us as one. And, and we can be redeemed and brought back into his presence and the atonement is completed.

[1:26:13] Michelle: OK. OK, so that’s the 5 points of fellowship. Is that the embrace that you’re, or is it, is it still present in the what

[1:26:24] Cory Jensen: we

[1:26:24] Michelle: have

[1:26:24] Cory Jensen: now even in there.

[1:26:27] Michelle: OK.

[1:26:27] Cory Jensen: I mean, the, the 5 points of fellowship had further meaning, and, and I go through that in the book as well. OK. But even just what we have now, you think about what that embrace at the veil, what that moment signal or what it signifies, and this is the This is the, the atonement portion of the endowment that’s that we’ve, and unfortunately, we’ve thrown half of it out half of it out because we were uncomfortable with it and because we didn’t see it and we didn’t understand it. And rather than teaching it, we just discarded it, and I think we’re poor for that fact.

[1:27:04] Michelle: OK, so I’m, you’ve given me so much to think about. I am loving that image of sort of that. Wholeness that completed circle of mercy and justice and oneness and unity between us and the Lord with Christ as the mediator, the veil, right? Like that allows, allows that, and the three points of separation. I, I’m OK, I’m, I’m really pondering what you’re talking about with the penalties and the symbolic representation, and I guess I find myself Maybe if I think about it this way, that what we have is a lower version of what we could have had, and then it was Maybe, maybe it was made to become more threatening and made to be about a secret, um, password through hands that didn’t fully understand it. I, I just, I’m trying to understand. So maybe what you’re saying is, this is the truth we can still find in it, even if it was presented quite incorrectly or incompletely or even badly. Is it, is that an OK way to think about it in your view?

[1:28:14] Cory Jensen: Yeah, I’m not sure, I’m not sure how much of, um, look, there’s been, there’s been a lot of changes. So if you go back through the history, the endowment was only given orally until 1877. So for 35 some odd years, it existed just in In um You know, like, like the old telephone game from one person to another, and, and Brigham Young, to his credit, at the time, um, that he had it written down in 1877 before his death, he pulled together. Uh, Wilfred Woodruff and JD McAllister, who was the president of Saint George Temple, and a couple of other people, I don’t remember right off the top of my head, but they took several months and they wrote out the endowment, and partly he wanted to standardize because there were variations happening between, um, between the different ceremonies, uh, or between different um sessions. There were variations wanted to standardize things. Since that time, and, and Wilfred Woodruff felt like um the underlying principle was more important than kind of the specific wording. And, and even Brigham when all that was complete, he felt like they had him pretty good, but it wasn’t perfect. Um, Brigham wanted to, he wanted to Give the endowment in two stages. He wanted to give an ironic stage and then wait until you had proven yourself and then, you know, give a Melchizedek stage. And I don’t know if he was ever, it seems from what I’ve been able to read and study, he remained kind of somewhat dissatisfied with it, even up until he died. Um, since then, there’s been numerous revisions and changes made, um, over the years. Things were added, things were taken away, um, and that process is continuing and In some ways, I feel like we have lost some things and in other ways, um, maybe that’s OK because the the core of what we have is still, um, I think sufficient and still the, the Lord will honor us or will honor it. But um, But it is becoming harder to see, even, even just recently, the endowment was shortened considerably. And for example, we no longer receive tokens physically coming back to each of us one at a time. And, and maybe that’s OK, but I think the symbol of that, of us receiving something back from the Lord, marking that, OK, you’ve progressed to this point, you’ve offered, you’ve been obedient and you’ve offered this sacrifice, and you’ve reached this point in your life, and now you receive this gift of grace that comes back from the Lord. To us individually and personally, and it comes from him, and it’s, it’s one of these experiences that we talk about that we need to receive to be um to be redeemed. I don’t know if that’s as clear now as it was.

[1:31:23] Michelle: I, I’m hearing you. There, there, there is something powerful about the temple, about combining the spiritual and the temporal, the physical, right? And bringing it, it’s kind of like, it’s kind of like if we blessed the sacrament and said, OK, now each of you imagine you are taking the sacrament, right? That’s kind of the same thing.

[1:31:46] Cory Jensen: Right,

[1:31:47] Michelle: in a way that, that, OK, like we can still just do it. This way, but is there something to the literal, um, tactile physical

[1:31:57] Cory Jensen: Well, if nothing else, helps us understand maybe the symbol better. It, it, it’s still there. You can still see it, but it’s maybe a little harder. And so I, I’m hopeful that parents particularly will help their children, and I hope people will take the time to really study. And again, I lay this out in a lot more detail in my book, um, if you’re interested in, in looking at it closer. But, but returning back now to the, to the ceremony at the veil and we’re brought back into the Lord’s presence, we’re redeemed. And it’s in that setting now that the crowning ordinance that we have in the gospel takes place. You know, we’re, we’re sealed as a husband and wife there. In a celestial sphere, we’ve progressed from a celestial to a terrestrial and now to a celestial sphere. And the ceiling rooms in the old temples, the Mantai Temple and the old Salt Lake Temple, for example, they were attached or appendages or they were built right off of the celestial room. So you knew, oh, I’m in the celestial, I’m now in this environment, and this is where I can be prepared to be sealed to my spouse. Um, what we’re given now is aspirational. It’s something we, we need to work towards, and it’s pointing us to what God would have us receive. But I think it also teaches us about the sanctity of marriage and, and the work that you’re doing, and the, the oneness that we hope to develop between husband and wife. And because that is the image of God, that is. The pattern where all eternity can continue.

[1:33:29] Michelle: Ah, yes, yes,

[1:33:31] Cory Jensen: OK. So the temple is teaching us all these beautiful things, um. But again, don’t make the mistake of turning that into the end. Recognize that it’s, it’s, it’s outlining a path for and it’s teaching us what the Lord wants us to receive.

[1:33:48] Michelle: So let me ask you a couple of questions because, so, um, OK, so what I’m hearing is that you’re saying there is a lot of profundity here that we can find God through. So, So we don’t, um, it’s not necessarily that whoever it came from is important, it’s, is there something of value there? And if we have eyes to see and we and we are willing to look and try to find it, we can find the value. Right? And so, um, so with, uh, and that’s the challenge is always the challenge is the discerning, what’s the good, what’s the bad? What’s the value, what’s necessary, what’s nice to have, what’s right, all of these questions. And so, for example, let’s go to Brigham Young’s lecture at the Vale, which was really where Adam God theory was most, um, explicitly brought into the temple. Right? And so, um, And I don’t think we have access to that lecture. I think that it was recorded, but I think it’s in in a library that that is not open for research if I recall. And so Um, anyway, so I, I guess I’m trying to think through, so we still have that experience at the Veil because someone at some point removed Brigham Young’s lecture at the Veil and tried to leave what was valuable there. I, I guess part of what I’m asking is Do you think there have been people along the way who have understood the things in the way that you are presenting them, or Or not, like, how have we gotten, how, what, how have we maintained what we’ve maintained? Has there been some intent to it or is it just been God working through people who maybe were ignorant, but we’re open to inspiration in some critical ways?

[1:35:32] Cory Jensen: Yes and yes and yes.

[1:35:34] Michelle: OK. All right.

[1:35:36] Cory Jensen: I, I think you’re right. I think it’s a lot like Isaiah. A lot of it has been preserved because, um, it wasn’t understood well. I think there have been, I think there definitely have been those along the way who have understood it, um, probably, and I, and I’m not, I am, look, let me be clear, I’m not trying to criticize anyone who has, um, Worked on the ceremony at at any point along the way. I, that is something I would be so reluctant to do. Right. Um, I, I will say this, I think some of those changes have been made in accordance with God’s will, and I think some of those changes have possibly been made without consulting him. OK. And so I don’t view our endowment today as perfect.

[1:36:26] Michelle: OK. There, there is also.

[1:36:28] Cory Jensen: But I don’t think it has to be for the value to be there.

[1:36:34] Michelle: And the fact that it was a lower law means it wasn’t perfect from the beginning, right? Like maybe and and there is also something about. When people don’t understand and don’t receive, then things are taken away from them. And so maybe that survey, while it can be looked at it through a cynical lens and saying the leaders are deciding what to do based on what the people want rather than inspiration. Maybe it could be looked at in a different way that I hadn’t considered, but that to see are the people understanding this enough that it, that we should keep it there, or is it doing more harm than good because there’s so little understanding? Does

[1:37:10] Cory Jensen: Israel want a king? OK, go ahead and give him a king, you know, but, but it’s, yeah, go ahead.

[1:37:18] Michelle: Right. So maybe, and so, so, so really for me, just the core that it all comes down to is God is in charge, God’s got this. Man can’t break something so big that God is surprised or God is put back on his heels and going, Oh no, what should I do now? Right? God knows the end from the beginning and all of this in God’s, is in God’s hands. So if each of us just does our best to ask God. Every day, what do you want me to do today, then this is all gonna work out, OK, right? And, and what we’re trying to do is figure out the details that we can, hopefully with as much discernment and and inspiration and good information as possible. And so, so, so I’m, I guess I’m saying all of that to say, it’s OK if people disagree on these topics, and it’s OK if we see different things, different ways at different times. I certainly have. Right, but at the same time, I love digging in and trying to find the value. Like, like finding positive value in the penalties is not something I had considered that there was important symbolic meaning. That could teach us, that could be turned on its head, instead of being a threat to us, being a way to help us in a very visceral, real sense, understand what has been done for us. Right? That gives it, that gives a whole new Uh, like, like, that’s mind blowing to consider it that way instead.

[1:38:46] Cory Jensen: Well, and, and I will be the first to admit it was not, it was not easy to see that the way they were presented. And so, I, look, anyone is welcome to disagree with me, um, take what ideas are resonate with you and seem helpful. I would just humbly ask that if you’re one who struggled with the temple or has had difficulty with it, maybe step back and re-evaluate. And maybe ask the Lord, and maybe let him see if there’s some value for you because Here’s the beauty to me of the temple. It’s universal in one, it’s like life, right? It’s universal to all of us, but at the same time, it is so very, very, very personal. I mean, all of us, our real endowment here is our life and the opportunities we’ve been given and the chance to grow to become like God and all of those things. And yet the path, and, and all of that is, life is universal for all of us, but our individual paths through it are so different. And, and I think one of the reasons the Lord uses symbolism in the temple is so that um he can really, really teach us and reach us in ways that we need to. But we have to have some background or a little bit of understanding or it’s very difficult to be able to do that for him to make connections.

[1:40:09] Michelle: I, I think. I think there is so much value in continuing to ask the questions, continuing to ask primarily for me the question. God, do you want me in the temple? Do you want me to go to the temple? And I know that’s a question that’s that both sides might have strong feelings about, because people who are just very faithful in the church would be like, Why would you need to ask that question? Of course, the answer is yes. And some people who don’t, who see just corruption in the church would say the same thing. Like, why are you asking that question? The answer is clearly no, right? And, and, um, and for me, my journey has been, um, I don’t know, it’s been so interesting and surprising to me, and um this last time, I still, I still need to talk about it, but I, I did meet God in the temple in a very unexpected way that I didn’t expect to um To encounter, right? And so, um, like I can testify of myself that we can meet God in the temple in incredibly profound, again, I’ll use the word visceral ways, right? That, um, That we can behold. The face and the being of God and be embraced by God, um. Even in ways we didn’t expect and don’t fully understand, right? So I know firsthand the power of the temple. And even, and, and, and so even if we aren’t see like, like when you went your first time, you were overwhelmed with the spirit, even though you were probably overwhelmed by a million other things as well, right? Right. And, um, and so that’s, and, and through my temple episodes, that’s what I was trying to present as well as Like, if God wants us to go to the temple, we should go to the temple. Jesus, uh, many of the concerns you brought up at the beginning when you even brought up something I had mentioned that sometimes I’ve struggled with is the sort of the, um, ornateness of the temples and the expense of the temples when there’s so much lack and, and kind of the question I have is, who is this really And edifice too. Who are we praising with our temple? Is it ourselves or is it purely God, and how can we know? You know, but I feel that Jesus experienced the same thing with the widow’s might, when he was sitting back watching the widow, who had no other hope, drop her, her last of everything, desperate that God would save her somehow. And I find what Jesus. to be actually a criticism of the society, not simply a praise for the widow, but, but that a society would allow this widow to be in that situation, that she was so desperate and so destitute. And so I see Jesus seeing the same things we’re seeing, yet I personally see Jesus still. Claiming that as his father’s house, still attending, still trying to help the people see the value there, even though it was built by Herod. And who knows what corruptions had entered in. Jesus still thought there was something there worthy of being respected and engaged with. It’s how I read that. And Yeah. And so I think we can do the same thing, right? Like, at least consider the same thing. Again, it’s so easy to judge. But it’s maybe more noble to find value.

[1:43:27] Cory Jensen: It, it is, and, and I, it’s hard. I think it’s really, we need to ask hard questions and we need to be willing to look at, look at issues and we need to be willing to work through things and I think we should give ourselves and others. The freedom and the patience and the long suffering and understanding to go through that process because I think there’s value in it. Um, but I think we should be really careful to of criticizing others. Like I said, I’m not critical of those who have had the stewardship or responsibility of handling the temple. I may disagree with some things that have happened. I may lament some things that I feel are, are no longer there, but I, I don’t feel critical. Um, it, it’s. It’s easy to be critical, and it is harder to find the value, and there is still tremendous value there. I just want to add my testimony to yours, um. Some of the most sacred spiritual experiences of my life have been in the temple, and the temple has had tremendous value in my life, in my own spiritual journey, in helping me to grow closer to the Lord and to understand the gospel and really um In, in receiving revelation in every way, it’s helped me to grow. It’s been such a huge blessing in my life. I would, my life would not be the same without it. And as I said at the beginning, I really feel like the scriptures in the temple are two halves of a whole. And, and even though we, what we have is not perfect and is not complete, it is what we have, and I think God honors and respects it, and I think it’s a mark of ingratitude if we don’t. Give it careful, the careful attention and consideration that it deserves. And in humility, you know, approaching the Lord, what do you have for me here? What would you have me learn? Um, and, and again, I, I want to reiterate what the Lord said to me, you know, it’s Um, I wouldn’t have my sons and daughters in ignorance any longer. We’ve been in ignorance too long of these things that he’s left behind and what Joseph tried to leave us. Let’s honor Joseph by, by rising up and receiving what he Setting aside our unbelief and let’s receive what Joseph wanted to give us. That’s the only way. Zion is going to be able to be brought about is by those who have made that journey, and who are pure in heart, and are able to abide the Lord’s presence. And and the temple is a huge blessing in helping us get there.

[1:46:08] Michelle: So, OK. So I think, are we, um, are we kind of leaving it at, it’s not the only way to get there, right? It’s not the one and only way to get there, but it can be a big help for us to get there. And, and I wonder if part of our journey to getting there. Is learning to look for the good rather than just the bad. Well, I mean, I think we have to be aware. We have to be able to discern and think critically. And sometimes that includes saying, I don’t think that’s right, right? But then, but then we also have to be able to see the good because we can do that about any kind of people. So I guess I’m. I just this idea of having charity for the church, how just like I wanna have charity for people just like we want to have charity for the people who have made the changes to the temple, including Brigham Young, right back to the beginning like. Yeah, yeah. Including like, like from the beginning, we can also have charity for the temple, which in a way can mean intentionally looking for the value, intentionally looking for the good, instead of just seeing the bad and writing it off as that that’s all that there is. And maybe if we are willing and able to consider having charity for the temple, that can help us in our experience of charity everywhere, which is one of the absolute necessities that we have to I was going to say incorporate within ourselves, but we have to practically become charity, right? We have to really learn charity in order to receive the blessings that are, um, symbolized in the temple that we are seeking in our actual lives. And so, So I think, I, again, just want to voice, like, I had a long time of asking, should I go to the temple and feeling repulsed and I didn’t go when I didn’t feel called to go. And I, I just trusted God to tell me what I needed to know. But then when I was called to go, it was because there was a profound experience waiting there for me. So I guess we can just give, I love what you were saying, kind of. Give everybody room to be on that path with between them and God. And, and them and their between them and their spouse and them and God. And that is a sacred personal journey that all of us can hopefully share our insights and our experiences, but we should never tell other people what they should do, what they need to do, what God wants them to do, right? Or judge them for how they are trying to navigate that path and the questions they are grappling with at the time.

[1:48:41] Cory Jensen: I agree 100%.

[1:48:44] Michelle: OK,

[1:48:45] Cory Jensen: I think that’s really beautiful. Um, I’m gonna share one more thought with you. I’m a little reluctant to do this because I, I don’t want people to miss. OK, some people will have a heyday with this, but,

[1:48:57] Michelle: um, Can we just ask everyone, please listen with charity, just like we’re talking about. If we want to be like Jesus, we need to have charity. So please try to hear what Corey is trying to express, and please don’t twist it into something to, don’t be swine. He’s giving us pearls, don’t turn again and rend him. OK.

[1:49:16] Cory Jensen: I, I, I think the journey is, again, like I said, it is very personal. I think the temple has tremendous value. I think we need to allow the Lord to teach it. I think, I think we need to acquire a basic framework of a beginning. We need to have a starting point. But then it’s, it’s something very personal for the Lord to teach us. I’ll, I’ll give you an example of where another place where I think Brigham’s fingerprints still are. And again, some may disagree with me, and I want to say this carefully, but um, you know, I look at our, at the last covenant that we make, the Covenant of consecration. Yes, and, you know, we covenant. To obey the law of consecration as it’s contained in the doctrine of covenants, and then we’re told that that means to give everything to the church. Yeah, well, that smacks to me of Brigham Young.

[1:50:13] Michelle: Yes, that is something I noticed the very first time I went through and it rubs it has rubbed me wrong every time.

[1:50:20] Cory Jensen: And it, and it presents two problems. Um, one problem is we really can’t live the law of consecration as it’s outlined in the doctrine of covenants because the church isn’t doing that right now. And so I make this covenant to do this, but then I’m not enabled to do it because the church isn’t doing it. That’s a problem. Another problem is, if I go back and I look at Nephi, and I look at the brother Jared, and I look at um Isaiah, I look at any of these examples we have in the scriptures, I can see the law of consecration in all their lives. Everyone, so it’s a scripture, that’s a true principle. But they didn’t have an organization. They didn’t have a thing um. That they were pledged to. And, and so as I’ve pondered that and as I’ve prayed about that, and as I have considered that, the Lord’s answer to me, and this is only my own answer, OK? I’m not, this is the part that I’m a little reluctant to share, but for me, The important thing is to consecrate myself to Christ. And I think that’s the principle that’s underlying. Now, there’s a, there’s a subtle difference there. That doesn’t preclude me from from giving anything and doing anything that the church requires. But there’s a, but there’s a difference. If I’m, if I’m only consecrating to the church, then I’m off the hook unless and until the church comes and asks me for something. If they don’t ask me for anything, I can sit here and teach primary every week and that’s all I’ve got to do, you know, cause that’s all they’ve asked. But if I’m consecrating to Christ. Then the burden shifts to me. I’ve got to understand what does the Lord want me to do? How does he want me to consecrate myself and what he’s blessed me with, to further his purposes. And maybe that’s Whatever it is, I mean, I look at you in your life and I see you very much consecrated to Christ and trying to do his will in this work you’ve done on the podcast, and I think you’re a beautiful example of that. Um, You know, maybe Christ needs us to work with the bless the poor or do some other thing that’s even outside of the church possibly, but could still be part of living that law of consecration. But that, that consecration is the true principle. I’m not sure that it’s presented 100% correctly. I’m not saying it’s incorrect. Don’t have a fit. If you, if you want to see it just the way it is, it’s OK. I’m just saying I think we can take The beautiful principles that are here and we can allow the Lord to adapt them in our own lives and in our own circumstances as he helps us, directs us, and I think our understanding can grow and change over time. I certainly see the endowment a lot differently today than I did 2030, 40 years ago.

[1:53:20] Michelle: I, I actually I’m really glad you brought that up because there are some specific elements that are really hard and And I know that. I, I appreciate also how gentle and humble you are being, and I, I need to follow that example because my tendency is to be like, I really don’t like that it is said like that, and it feels so wrong to me, you know, because I think it is absolutely that we consecrate ourselves. I love how you said that we concentrate our time, our talents and everything that we have or that the Lord blesses us with our will. Bless us with to Jesus Christ. And so that everything we have, we see it in service to Jesus Christ on behalf of our fellow men or to our, you know, in service to our fellow men on behalf of Jesus Christ, we’re always saying, God, what do you want me to do with my time, with my talents, with my means in every opportunity? And that’s a very different thing. And it also. You know, for some people, for me, I’ll speak for myself. I know I’m not the only one, but it’s been challenging to see um The church donating large sums of money to Bill Gates’ organizations has been really challenging for many of us to see. And some of the other projects that the church has engaged in feel, um, feel troubling to some people, right? And so it’s, so it feels like a, um, higher calling and a more pure and noble calling in some ways to consecrate to Jesus Christ rather than to this organization.

[1:54:49] Cory Jensen: Uh, you know, I was just gonna follow up on that thought. I The church has tremendous value, um. I, I think we need to step back though for just a minute and ask ourselves, OK, if the church is perfect in every way, and if everything is 100% hunky dory, OK, how does that save me? Me, me, Corey Jensen. On the other hand, on the other extreme, if the church is a corrupt apostate mess and you know, is all, all kinds of off track, then how does that damn me as a person? You know, we have, we have all this stuff in the church, and we get so caught up on checking off boxes and running around doing a million different things, and we stay endlessly busy. And yet when you boil it all down, everything in the church, it comes down to Christ. I mean, without him, none of it matters. And when you really boil down, I think from his perspective, if you were to boil everything down, it comes down to you and to me, and to each one of us individually. I think that’s what really matters the most to Christ. And so to me, the gospel is the heart of the gospel is, how is our relationship with our Savior. Mhm And that process of learning to hear his voice and to respond to him and to face him and to do what he wants to do in my life. That’s our process of sanctification and of of of preparing. Ourselves so that he can teach us and lead us and bring us back into his presence. And that’s what the gospel is intended. That’s what it’s about. And all this other stuff can be a great assistance in that, or it can be a great distraction.

[1:56:44] Michelle: Oh, I think that’s so true. I think that’s great. When, when I, um, when you were talking about how does the church, if it’s perfect or if it’s completely bad, how does that, um, affect us, right? And, and when I was struggling, um, many years ago for the first time actually facing the decision for real, do I need to leave the church? Am I leaving the church? That is such a that is a Incredibly difficult place to be. I think most of us who’ve always been in the church can’t even imagine actually being in that place, right? And, um, and I did have an inspired, um, person speak to me and just kind of say, like, he brought up the resistance that we need to push against in order to come under Christ too, is part of what I started to view the church kind of as a family. That has maybe a family with some problems, right? Because our families are not purely good and they’re not purely bad. Some, you know, there’s a scale and they can be at different places on the scale toward good and bad, but our family ideally teaches us and supports us and loves us and gives us this solid framework, while at the same time, Challenging us and hurting us and teaching us the necessity of forgiveness and overcoming and resilience and right like families do both of those things. And in a way we can see the church possibly through the same lens as doing both of those things. And, and maybe from our conversation, we can see the temple as doing both of those things and it’s easy to be, to think the church is. Just pure good and it only does the good side. And, and that really hurts the people who are experiencing the other side when they’re saying, this is really hurting me, and they have other people saying, that’s not true. The church is only good, right? Or, but then at the same time, if we go to the pure negative and we have people saying the church really blesses me, and we have people say, Well, that’s just because you’re not awakened, or that’s because you, right? Like, like that introduces judgment. And so, Anyway, I, I don’t know if I took that a different direction than you were going with it, but

[1:58:50] Cory Jensen: I love that analogy. I think that’s so beautiful. And I think we all have a few crazy aunts and uncles that try our patience and our faith.

[1:59:00] Michelle: Those really hard kids, kids

[1:59:03] Cory Jensen: and kids. Oh my gosh, I, yeah, I have 4 kids and um And we’ve, we’ve had one of them, like I said, has, has really saved me because she has taught me. Because of her, she went through. And she doesn’t, she’s, she’s OK if I share this. We had a daughter who, um, I was very, very close to and she hit her teenage years and made some mistakes and really ended up in a battle, uh, of addiction and some problems that nearly cost her life. And it was heart-wrenching, but it was, um, It was a thing I needed to begin to let go of judgment and to start to really understand the gospel in a whole deeper, more profound way, to understand, I mean, I look at the parable of the prodigal son from the father’s standpoint now. I’ve always missed that before. But to understand what it means to unconditionally love another person and to all, all of those things that I could not have learned without her. And in some ways, although she’s far off, if you look at the, the gospel track that we have outlined, the Little Temple recommend questions, she’s far off of that path. But in other ways, she’s the best of all of my kids. She is so humble and so charitable, and so forgiving, and so loving of others, um, partly because of all the crap that she’s been through. I, while you were talking, I was reminded of a little story that I read years ago, and I’m gonna share it with you, um. But again with a little disclaimer, I think there’s a grain of truth to this story. I, I think we can take this principle way too far. I think we can carry it way too far, but I do think there’s a beautiful element of truth to this. This story was called, I, I wish I could remember the author, um, anyway, it’s a little story called The Little Soul and the Sun.

[2:01:05] Michelle: Yes.

[2:01:06] Cory Jensen: Have you read it?

[2:01:07] Michelle: Yes, I love it. It, it’s, it’s like central to my view of, of our life, but yes, please tell it to us.

[2:01:14] Cory Jensen: It’s and and I’m paraphrasing, so if I get it a little wrong, but um as I remember it. It’s these two little souls and they’re best friends, and they’re with God, and they’re getting ready to come down to earth, and God is talking with one of them, and he asks her, you know, what, they’re talking about the things that, that she would like to learn while she’s here in this Earth life. And um in this conversation, The little soul says, you know, God, I’d really like to learn forgiveness. And God says to her, um, you know, that’s a wonderful thing to learn. That’s a really, really good thing to learn. But in order to help you learn that, we’re going to have to set up, someone’s going to have to hurt you. And we’re gonna have to set up some circumstances so that that can happen, so that you can learn forgiveness. And how are we gonna do that? And the this little soul has a best friend, and she steps forward and she says, you know what, I will help you to learn forgiveness. I’ll go down. And I’ll be the one That hurts you And helps you Because I know, uh, and, and I’ll do this for you to help you learn. But as they’re getting ready to leave, the plan gets put into place and they’re, they’re both getting ready to leave, and the friend turns to the other and she says, now, I’ll do this for you. But don’t forget who I really am. This is why it’s so hard for us to judge. We don’t know. We see so little of the whole picture. And we don’t know the ways that we’re helping or blessing uh one another. I My daughter for all of her struggles. In part came down here to save me, to help me learn the things that I needed to learn. And, and I know at some point she’ll things in her life will come back together and she’ll be OK. But it’s so easy to sit in our high seat and look around and be judgmental of others, especially if we can check off the, you know, I’ve got a card-carrying temple recommend that, so I’m good and you’re, you’re not, so you’re bad. We, we, we really, really need to be humble, all of us. That’s the one of the messages the Book of Mormon constantly tries to get us to us as members of the church is, hey, you guys think you’re really great, but you kind of suck.

[2:03:53] Michelle: Right.

[2:03:54] Cory Jensen: And you really need to, I, we really need to be a lot more humble when it comes to all of this. And I think we need to be careful of what we throw out and what we retain. I think we need to be very prayerful, and we need to really rely upon the Lord. We just, we can’t do it any other way.

[2:04:16] Michelle: Yes. Here’s, I’ll share this book so people can see and I’ll have a link to it below. Is this, this is the one you were referring to, right? And that friend says, Remember, I’m just a little soul in the sun too, right? Like that, that we’re all just here learning and growing and serving one another and each trying to do our part. And, um, yes, and I think I love what you’re saying about your daughter because it made me think about the penalties of the temple in a way. That those kind of served a similar purpose from what I’m hearing. They challenged you and maybe, I don’t want to speak for you, but for others, offend maybe offended us, right? But they gave you the opportunity to dig much deeper to find truths that you wouldn’t have found without them there. To the point that you now miss their presence because of the value that they offer.

[2:05:15] Cory Jensen: Yes. Yes, and I’m glad you brought that up again because I think there was a 4th, um, in those penalties, which is exactly what you’re saying. I think to a much lesser degree. They also showed that as we try to help one another, as we try to imitate Christ, as we try to become um. Saviors in our own small way by following him and doing what he would have us do. We, it involves some suffering. It’s, there’s, I mean, there were some gut-wrenching, painful, horrible, um, experiences and, and a lot of suffering that I went through with my wife and I both went through with um. With several of our children, but, um, again, and, and I think to a lesser degree the penalty testified that, you know, if we’re on this path, if we’re disciples of Christ, we’re not going to be exempt from that. You look at what Joseph and Emma went through that that you’ve beautifully highlighted some of the difficult hard things, but all of those things are for our good and for our blessing, and My favorite scripture in all of scripture is probably Isaiah, where he talks about um the Lord came to give us beauty for ashes. And sometimes in our lives we find ourselves, despite our best efforts and despite all we can do, we find ourselves in a pile of ashes. And yet the Lord can take all of that and make it uh into something very beautiful. The temple, I think, is testifying of all of that.

[2:06:46] Michelle: My goodness, Corey, this has been a beautiful and profound conversation. I cannot thank you enough for coming and sharing your insights. I really hope that people will take this as food for thought and ponder on it. And also, um, it’s also an invitation to open all of us up, to continue to seek, to find what its insights we find, to find the path that we’re led on, right? Because all things testify of Christ. And That absolutely includes the temple,

[2:07:18] Cory Jensen: right, certainly does. Well, thank you again for the opportunity. Um, again, my wife and I are so grateful and appreciative of your work. Uh, it has led, it’s opened our eyes in many ways. It’s led me to have a desire to repent, um. I’ve had pioneer ancestry on both my mom’s and my dad’s family and, and many polygamists. In fact, I went and added up the other day. There’s about 25. Wow, our family line, but, um, I have felt a desire to repent of that and to teach my children to do better and differently so that it doesn’t continue in our family. And, and even in some ways, maybe we can Make some small amends. I, I don’t criticize any of those ancestors again. I think they were doing the best that they knew how to follow the Lord. They were making tremendous sacrifices, um, to keep some of these laws. It was very heartbreaking um.

[2:08:21] Michelle: The people aren’t the problem. The false ideas are the problem.

[2:08:24] Cory Jensen: That’s ideas. That’s, that’s why repentance is, is so much replacing these false ideas with truth, because we can, we can sacrifice so much and, and yet be on the wrong page, and, uh, we’ve got to get, we’ve got, yeah, we’ve got to be based in truth.

[2:08:44] Michelle: Ah well, thank you for you’re

[2:08:46] Cory Jensen: doing and thank you for this opportunity.

[2:08:48] Michelle: Yes, thank you so much. I look forward to talking again. Another huge thank you to Corey Jenten. We actually continued the conversation after we stopped recording, and I feel bad that it wasn’t being recorded, so he will be coming back on to share some of the things that we discussed that I think people will find interesting. I will have his books linked below as well as the other one. We talked about in the episode as well as his website. And as always, I welcome feedback and discussion. I never want to be someone that’s claiming to give answers. I just enjoy that we are all on this journey together. So thank you so much for continuing to join me, and I will see you next time.