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Intro to Gwendolyn’s latest video, “Our Best Story”
Watch full video:
“Our Best Story” – Polygamy: An Enemy Has Done This
Hemlock Knots – excellent church history resource
Transcript
[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon Polygamy. With all of the crazy things that have happened the last couple of weeks, some really beautiful things have happened as well. And one of them is the release of Gwendolyn W Wine’s most recent video called Our Best Story. And I reached out to Gwendolyn. I took some doing to get a hold of her in her travels in Europe, but she very graciously agreed to come on and talk to me about this video that she has done. Her whole channel is beautiful. I Believe that this video in particular, this most recent one, needs to be just one of the central pieces in the, um, anthology of work that we are doing to try to help more and more people open up to the truth as we see it on this topic. And so I wanted as many people as possible to see this video she did to be introduced to her channel and to just get to experience Gwendolyn. So I am so happy that she came on and and spoke to me, and I hope you enjoy the conversation. Welcome to this conversation. I am so thrilled to be here with my good friend, Gwendolyn Wine. I asked Gwendolyn to come on and talk to me this week because primarily of the video, well, two videos that she recorded last Saturday that were phenomenal. So I, I’m sure that my entire audience hopefully knows who Gwendolyn is. I just have to say, Gwendolyn is so Brilliant. And also just gracious and kind and dedicated and just doing, she is doing such incredible work. And I am thrilled that I, Gwendolyn, I’m just thrilled with what you’re doing because it’s made me really happy to feel like we don’t have to do this alone. We have a team of good inspired, dedicated, smart people working on this. So I’ve just been thrilled. And, um, I’m so Glad that Gwendolyn agreed to come and talk to me today and I really hope that my entire audience not only watches, well, her channel in general, but especially this most recent episode she did that is one that can just be shared as broadly as possible with all of our, um, family and friends who are members of the church beyond that as well, but primarily I think it’s designed for those who are members of the church. So welcome, Gwendolyn. Oh, thank, thank you for coming. And for the work you’re doing, so I want Gwendolyn first to just give us a quick update of her adventures that she’s on right now. Where are you recording from,
[02:44] Gwendolyn Wyne: Gwendolyn? Recording from the south of France, which I kind of don’t want to leave. I keep elbowing my husband. I’m like, we could move to France. What are we doing? Um, but, you know, if I was at home, we would drive to Arizona or Nevada or Utah, but here we are in Europe, and so we can, we can do that. It’s not, you know, it’s not quite, I mean, it’s amazing. I just don’t want to be like, we’re in the south of France, but it’s pretty, it’s pretty wonderful, and I’m excited to be here. We’ve seen a lot of castles, and we’ve been to the Mediterranean, and I’ve gone shopping and everything is one size fits all. So, Michelle, I know you’re tall too, and it’s the best because Everything is loose and flowy and elastic waistbands, and so I’m so glad that I stopped buying clothes the minute I knew we were moving to Europe because I’ve been cashing that in while I’m on this trip.
[03:32] Michelle: That’s so, that’s fascinating. OK, so you’re, you’re in Austria for 1 year, 2 years.
[03:39] Gwendolyn Wyne: We’re just, my husband works in environmental data and so there’s, there were opportunities for him to expand his company there. So that’s what we’re doing in Vienna, but then he also has colleagues who have, you know, friends and family who are located throughout Europe and so one of the. Those groups was here in the south of France and they said, hey, we’re having a get together if you guys want to come visit and we said, yes, yes, we do. So
[04:03] Michelle: you just took a little, a little jaunt, a
[04:05] Gwendolyn Wyne: little trip, yeah, a little jaunt over and our children are all, they’re all at a Roman aqueduct right now playing and it’s just, it’s gorgeous. Our school starts next week. We don’t start until after, um, the end of August, so I, I love it.
[04:18] Michelle: Yeah, that’s amazing. OK, well, thank you.
[04:20] Gwendolyn Wyne: I’m trying
[04:21] Michelle: to,
[04:21] Gwendolyn Wyne: I’m trying to like take it all in and process so that I can actually, I mean, I want to use it for good for my family also, but there’s all these fun things that, you know, you observe and see and you think, oh well, that really applies to what we, what we’re thinking about as Latter-day Saints, and so I’m trying to incorporate that as well.
[04:37] Michelle: Oh, very cool. So for, so everyone knows Gwendolyn is taking time away from her vacation in the south of France right now to have this conversation. And also, all of this work that you’ve been doing, you’ve been doing in Europe, which is just amazing. Yeah, it’s really It’s really dedication and it’s really awesome that you are continuing to do this work while you’re there.
[04:58] Gwendolyn Wyne: And I, I don’t want to complain about it because I feel like I love, I think anyone who feels called to speak in this space, it’s because you, you love truth and you want to share it. And so I never want to complain and, and complain about the time that it takes. It does take a lot of Time. Um, but I’m so grateful that, that God’s given me something to say. And I know you feel the same way. I’m really happy that we can, I mean, there was most of my life when I was like, I don’t have anything to say about polygamy, except it scares me, and I don’t like it, and I don’t know what to say. And now I do. And I’m so grateful to know what to say. It’s much, much better. It tastes better.
[05:35] Michelle: Oh, that’s, yeah, the floodgates open, right? You study and it’s all, it’s all meaningful instead of this confusing, you know, it all falls into place and you can
[05:43] Gwendolyn Wyne: a lot of a lot of light. Yeah.
[05:47] Michelle: Tons of inspiration just flowing. So, OK, so can we talk specifically? I know, I, I think in our last conversation, you kind of gave us an overview of starting your channel and, and how you did that. So feel free to share anything. But I kind of want to talk about this specific episode. Can you tell us what it is, how the idea came about? Then, you know, like, how Much work this was. I have so many questions along these lines. This, this episode in particular seems like it’s sort of your like grand opus.
[06:17] Gwendolyn Wyne: I didn’t know what
[06:18] Michelle: you’ve been doing in a lot of
[06:19] Gwendolyn Wyne: ways. It just happened that way. OK, yeah, so, so I ended up, as you know, I wrote a paper called um An Enemy Hath Done This, The Seed and weeds of Polygamy, and thanks to your inspiration. I decided to turn it into a channel, honestly, so that you were not the standing all by herself witness of this. I was like, this is not fair for one woman to be out there alone. It’s just not. Um, and frankly, it doesn’t have to be just two either. Like there’s plenty, plenty of space. Whitney’s obviously doing an amazing job too, but there’s plenty of space for many, many women to speak up about this and men. Um, so I was, I’m doing my channel that, that’s doing a video series following that paper. So I already have come to the conclusion, it’s already on my website. Um, people can kind of see where I’m going with this, and I’m just divide my husband was like, why don’t you just divide it into chunks and, and that’s how I’ve been doing it. Um, but I’ve been surprised by how long each chunk takes to prepare. Um it turns out when you have something you’re like, OK, I’m gonna base it on this, all these other ideas come in and so it’s just, you know. I,
[07:24] Michelle: I completely relate to that because so often in your brain, it’s like, oh, the, like, like, I know exactly what it’s gonna be. I can get that ready. And then as soon as you start studying, it’s like, it just, it’s like the hydra. It keeps expanding and expanding and it gets more and more difficult. Like, that is exactly what happens to me. Yeah, so anyone who is sitting there thinking, why don’t they just do it that way? Or why don’t they just like, like, try it. Yeah, you’ll. by experience that this is really challenging. It’s, it’s like brain exercise on steroids. It’s very challenging.
[07:56] Gwendolyn Wyne: Yeah, it’s, it’s fun, but it’s, it’s exciting and challenging, and there’s always just never enough time because like you, I also have children in, in the home and they need my time. Um, and I’m happy to give that to them. So anyway, as I’ve gone through and doing each episode, it always just takes longer than I expect. But, um, I just had this feeling at some point, I was like, you know what we really need is a version. Of of history that’s that’s similar to what we have on the gospel topics essays on polygamy, right? The gospel topics essays on polygamy give us this historical narrative that’s just I mean, I’m gonna quote again, I’ll just quote one of my most, most faithful, most believing, beloved, treasured people in my life who’s as stalwart in the church as you can be. This person was when the person heard this narrative that Joseph Smith had, you know, married a 14 year old and all that, this person said, that’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. And I was like,
[08:54] Michelle: sometimes,
[08:54] Gwendolyn Wyne: right? I just, I really don’t know. I My community is faithful members of the church, and I don’t know anyone who actually believes this story. Everyone I know who thinks about it is like, uh, something’s, you know, we just don’t understand. There’s something we’re missing, there’s something we don’t understand. I literally don’t know anyone who’s actually like, yes, this is what happened. We put it out there on I guess different Uh, you know, platforms that this is what happened, but I don’t know real people in the church who believe that Joseph Smith did that and that it’s like of God. I just don’t know any. And so I can,
[09:35] Michelle: can I add to that a little bit because, so I do know people because um of the sort of nuanced member circles or the and the people I know who do know this version. Either leave the church in droves. I know so many who do, or become, um, gain this new model where a prophet doesn’t have to be good, where so it like they bring on this nuance that I, I’m, I’m one for nuance. I like us to think more deeply about things. But when the nuance takes it to a place where it really destroys faith and destroys kind of the integrity of God and the integrity of prophets of God. I don’t find that to be constructive or like, like I have yet to see good fruits come from this model of Joseph Smith, I guess is what I’m saying because even the, the majority of the membership and I think this is the way the leadership wants it, which I think is a good thing since it’s a bad, bad model they the majority of the membership I would say is ignorant about it just doesn’t, it’s kind of like polygamy’s just this thing that we shouldn’t worry about. You know, and we don’t have to learn about. Then there are the studious people and the like the studious people who really dive into it really do leave like rough stone rolling has destroyed so many, so many testimonies. And then the gospel, then it’s on Fair Mormon now it’s on the church website Gospel top that now it’s insane and it really does a lot of harm, a lot of harm. It’s sad.
[11:05] Gwendolyn Wyne: I should clarify too. I know the people I know who believe that Joseph did this don’t believe it was of God. Like, I don’t know faithful people who believe in God, who believe Joseph married 14 year olds because God told him to the, the actual, like, I don’t know anyone who believes that story. I know people believe Joseph believed it and and married him, but that, but they don’t connect that that’s a real thing anyway, do you know
[11:29] Michelle: what? Even Brian Hailes takes it upon himself to advise Joseph in how he should have done it better. Don’t marry 114 year olds. Tell like he, the way that Brian Hales criticizes Joseph. It’s very interesting.
[11:40] Gwendolyn Wyne: There are like nobody thinks that this is a story that where where some where Joseph followed God and it’s like, OK, so anyway, I thought we need to, to have, we need to tell another story. And this is really hard, couldn’t be harder, could not be harder to do because in my prayers to tell this story, I was like, look. I don’t know what happened, and I, frankly, I’m not asking you to tell me what happened because maybe what happened is not, it’s like, I don’t, I don’t know, and I don’t know that we, or that I, or, you know, are ready to have this full story unless we first get to a place where we can see that polygamy is truly not from you, right? So I need some help. Please help me to see a path where this story could make sense if, if polygamy is not from you. Like, how could this have happened? It doesn’t have to be the way that it did happen, but I need to be able to have some, some options open up for me to, to, to help us because we as a people are so focused on the legitimacy of polygamy because of the historical narrative that we tell. We, we just cannot let it go because we’re like, but Joseph said, Brigham said, all these people said it’s like, It doesn’t matter, you know, truth is not held hostage by the testimonies of men. It’s just not. People can be wrong. Every one of us can be wrong. We’re all mortals on this earth. And so, ultimately, truth has to be able to stand on its own. It has to have fruits that bear witness of it, and The fruits of polygamy are rotten. You’ve talked about this. They’re just bad. Um, you wanna say that the physical fruit of actual children is a good fruit. It just, I mean, the RAPE also bears physical fruit of children, and that’s not good. You have to look at the whole thing. You have to look at the psychological damage and, and what it does to families and societies, right? You look at the The most barren wastelands on earth are the places right now where polygamy is legal. It bears bad fruit on a state nation level, on personal family levels. Once it gets in, once you are ensnared in it. It perpetually bears bad fruit. So it’s like we have to be able to let it go.
[14:09] Michelle: Yeah, I, I know, I know you know all of this. I’m speaking to the choir. I’m saying and and most of our audience knows it as well, but the interesting thing is every single thing you just mentioned. Um, the bad fruit, the holding on to the traditions of our fathers, you know, we need to hold it because a lie was, I mean, because that was told by past leaders. Every single one of those things is included in our scriptures, all of the warnings, including the barren wasteland, right? We are warned against the false traditions of our fathers. We are taught to look for the fruits. We’re taught that in the New Testament and in the Book of Mormon and in the doctrine and Covenants, right? And we are taught also that Hearst will be the land for their sake if they do these things, the barren wasteland. That is so true and I think universally because when you implement bad policies, I don’t think it’s always that God is like, oh, you’re doing bad things. Therefore, I will, you know, like send a bolt of lightning to punish you with bad consequences. I think it’s kind of. I think it’s like parents, like we’re like, don’t run into the street because these bad things could happen, right? I’m not going and getting a car and hitting my child because they ran into the street. I am telling my child, when you go into the street, you put yourself in a situation where bad consequences follow. And that is what God is doing with polygamy. We know, I, I love that you included in your video, the sociological study. That has been done that unequivocally shows that for. So anyway, I just, it’s so interesting because people constantly want to hold on to this and say things like, if it weren’t for polygamy, I wouldn’t be here, which is just such a silly statement. Like, throughout the entire, um, generations of time, you don’t think that there are other negative things that have happened. There’s some infidelity, there’s some RAPE. There’s some, right? There’s all kinds Of things. It’s not, that’s a silly thing to say. It really is. God gives us, um, truth. We mess up truth as mortals, then we return to God, right? And we, we, we don’t defend the errors of the past because when they are errors, because that keeps us in error. That’s the whole purpose of repentance. So anyway, just confirming everything you say. I love it. Mhm.
[16:18] Gwendolyn Wyne: Well, so I, so I started working, I actually silly enough, told my husband toward the beginning of summer, I was like, I think I could actually finish my video series like by the end of summer. I think I can finish it. And that was just, I mean, come on. I, I got one video done and it took everything, every spare minute I had to anyone I didn’t text back or email back during the summer. I’m really sorry. I was saying really overwhelmed. Um, so I tried to make this video and I even had it in my head because I, I love, I’m so sorry about the lighting part, we’re just
[16:51] Michelle: gonna it’s OK. You absolutely look beautiful. You look like you belong in the south of France.
[16:55] Gwendolyn Wyne: That’s perfect. I love it here so much. Um, so Hemlock Knots is just this amazing resource, and I know you had your interview a few weeks back with Mark Curtis, and they have that website and Mark’s work and that I know that many people have contributed to Hemlock Knots. That has been so, um, just formative for me in, in helping me understand how things could have happened. I mean, they’ve done incredible research so. I don’t feel like I really did any research per se. I just used what has already been done. Hemlockno has done amazing research. You’ve done amazing research. I used some of yours. I was texting you like, hey, where’s that? What’s that reference you had? And, um, but, but I think the story actually is pretty straightforward and pretty clear, and that’s why I thought it wouldn’t take me very long to do. Um, but I tried to, in my video, um, it’s a It’s, it’s 2.5 hours long, um, which is, I mean, it’s long, but at the same time, that’s, that’s just how much time it took me.
[17:58] Michelle: Jam packed. It is so tight and concise. It, it, it’s, you, you, it doesn’t waste a minute of your
[18:05] Gwendolyn Wyne: time. I, I ended up, yeah, there’s a lot that I cut out because I was like, you know what, it’s not absolutely essential for this story, even though it’s part of the whole picture. Um, so what I tried to do, what made the most sense to me as I was reading through all the different Um, evidences and documents, I thought, you know, what makes the most sense is just to tell this story chronologically, even going month by month. Because once you start looking in that, and that’s how Hemlocknos does their polygamy timeline, because once you look at the chronology of it, you’re like, oh, this makes sense. That’s how it happened and And You know, again, it could be for nefarious purposes or it could be because people were genuinely deceived, which is what I hope is true for most, if not all. I hope that people are just genuinely deceived by this. Um, I was deceived by this my whole life. I thought that this was of God. So I’m not. Judging their deceit. I think that that’s actually really good evidence that the restoration was truly from God because of how viciously and um tenaciously Satan attacked it. Like there was no let up in that. And this was essential to be indoctrinated to undermine the foundation of the restoration, um, which is sad to say. I think it’s better for us to just face it and, and stay together and move forward based on, based on truth. Um, so I did this video as just a month by month chronology and I tried to just keep that, that timeline up on the corner of the screen so you can kind of see what’s happening when. Um, I made a point as we’re going through month by month. I tried to, um, I really was like, hey, if, if the gospel topics essays can quote Later reminiscences and throw them in and use the evidence that they like and not use the evidence they don’t. I was like, I’ll just, I’ll just do that too because you know that’s fair turn about is fair play, right? So I, I really, and I tried to say that in my intro like I’m just using the sources that support this perspective and you really could tell different stories we have told different stories. I don’t think the story that we’re telling right now is anything other than ridiculous. God does not command married men to marry teenagers behind his wife’s back. It doesn’t happen, so we need to stop supporting it, stop perpetually telling this story. It’s not gonna help build faith in Jesus Christ because this doesn’t come from Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ taught that the highest, the thing that the law and the prophets hang on is the golden rule, um, so it just, it fails on every front.
[20:39] Michelle: And so marriage and honor and respect for your wife just like Adam and Eve, yes, yeah,
[20:44] Gwendolyn Wyne: all the, all the commandments, they’re very consistent. We have, we have this point in the Old Testament where the Israelites interpreted the law as allowing polygamy, and guess what, that same group of people did not come up. They did not meet God. They did not establish Zion. They ended up being scattered for and destroyed for apostasy. So I just think. Let’s, let’s go. Let’s set it. Let’s set it aside. Let’s move forward so we can have a Zion people.
[21:11] Michelle: Yes, yes. And I have to say, I love, OK, a couple of points I want to make just to build on what you’re saying. So I, I love that you didn’t feel bogged down by having to deal with every single potential objection or every single, I love that you just told a, um, a version of history that makes Sense. And I have to say, your version of history. So, so we should outline, I guess, what Gwendolyn does. You just go through and show where, like where polygamy came from. Maybe, maybe, um, I want to remember my point, but go ahead and just kind of really quickly out like, like, tell us what your video does, and then I’ll, and then I’ll respond with my points.
[21:48] Gwendolyn Wyne: Sure, I tried to put it in a big picture context. So it’s like polygamy did not start with the Mormons. That’s, that’s what they were called in the book that I’m quoting. So the polygamy did not start with us. Um, it, it was already seated in the ground of America. In fact, it was associated
[22:05] Michelle: and Europe. I love that you brought in Europe,
[22:10] Gwendolyn Wyne: right across the pond, um. I mean, because it, it’s important to somebody, right? Is it important to God or is it important to Satan because it keeps coming up, right? So let’s figure out who it’s actually important to and then work from there. So it didn’t start with the Mormons as, as the books that I’m quoting calls us, um, anyway, and it, uh. Sorry, all I’m trying to like use the right language and it’s like it gets complicated when you’re trying to store cite historical sources that call us Mormons. So I did not start with.
[22:44] Michelle: So this is a Mormon safe zone. We’re OK on this channel to use Mormons. It just is challenging, but we’re just trying to get a point across.
[22:51] Gwendolyn Wyne: OK, so it didn’t start with us, um, it was actually. Associated with restoration groups, there was a lot of restoration groups in the Second Great Awakening. One of the many was the Cochranites. They were known as the Society of Free Brethren and Sisters. They had a doctrine of polygamy. They called it spiritual wifeism and, and they had a prophet who said that it was part of the um last days. Just so happens that these people were close enough that our Latter-day Saint missionaries went and preached to them and told them, gather the Zion, gather the Zion, and guess what? They did. Not too many years after that we start to be reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy. You can see this in the journals of the missionaries who preached to them in 1831. This is, um, anyway, Samuel Smith, etc. Orson Hyde, who later becomes a polygamist, so you. It’s OK that people
[23:45] Michelle: timeline, putting the timeline together like you did in video form is powerful. Yes. Yeah.
[23:52] Gwendolyn Wyne: It’s sad that we were deceived by this. You can see how this happened. It came into the church and then at some point, um, you know, Joseph and other leaders and the Lord established the law at the beginning. That’s the other thing that to me is the strongest case against it is that at the very, very beginning of the church, the Lord gave the saints his law. A law is. Not something where right now we sometimes say, well, monogamy is the rule, polygamy is the exception to the rule, and it’s like the Lord didn’t call it a rule. He called it the law. We have to respect God’s law. If we do not love God’s law, we will not be able to progress. It’s very simple. So that was
[24:34] Michelle: the law for anyone wondering, just tell them what the law is. Are you referring to Doctor Covenant?
[24:39] Gwendolyn Wyne: Yep, Doctrine Covenant section 42, and, uh, just off the top of my head it says thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart and cleave unto her and none else. So this was given to the Latter-day Saints in our language for our understanding, right? So there’s no, sorry, I’m gonna just move there
[24:56] Michelle: if you just lean forward, you should be good. Yeah, there you go. The sun’s moving. Yes, so, so it is, it was established clearly given, and we’re not even just talking about section 101. People just work so hard to try to throw everything out. By Revelation, to Joseph Smith right at the beginning of the church, the law was given that was could not be more clear and that is consistent with the Book of Mormon, consistent with the teachings of Jesus, right? So, OK.
[25:21] Gwendolyn Wyne: And it wasn’t just in Joseph. Yeah, and I know you know this. It wasn’t just to Joseph. And this is key because the Lord established a pattern of revealing law to groups, right? So the Lord told the saints, I think it’s in section 38, to go to the Ohio and to gather together as elders and pray to Received the law and that’s what they did and you see that a couple times through. I try to like put a little yellow box around the scriptures when it talks about the law being established through this, um, through this, it’s, it’s like a type of common consent or maybe um 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th witnesses. The law did not ever come through one person in our latter-day scripture. So, we have the law established, everyone agrees to it, and that’s what we’re going to live by. And you can just see over time that polygamy continues to sort of sprout or little, little fires starting to spark and Again, I, I think if we went, if we went back in time, if we had a time machine and went back and said to, like, the leaders of the church in 1834, do you know that the biggest issue that people are gonna have 1 185 years from now is that they are going to be really struggling over how you guys did polygamy. They would be like, What are you talking about? Right? I mean, even if we did this in 1844, people would be like, we don’t do that. What do you talk, like, it wasn’t a big deal, but it became a big deal because we didn’t obey the law. We didn’t see, the Lord sees what’s ahead. And gives us warnings based upon what’s ahead. We don’t always know how serious it is to obey and heed the Lord’s warnings until it’s like far too late, and I do think that that’s what happened. Um, one of the examples that I give in the video just, um, is one of the first things mentioned in the law that the Lord gave was for the elders to go out and preach 2 by 2. And you can see pretty early on that they actually started giving exceptions to that. They would send off missionaries, um. Just one missionary at a time.
[27:33] Michelle: Brigham Young to the Cochranites, yeah.
[27:35] Gwendolyn Wyne: And one of those was Brigham Young to the Cochranites. And that was while he was single. His wife had passed away. He was a widower. Um, but that was an exception. It, it said that Brigham Young is going alone, it being his own choice. Um, and it, and I don’t think, right? I don’t think that that, I, I try to just give everyone their space, right? And I’m not gonna sit there and point my finger. So I don’t know what his heart was at that moment in time. It might have been that he just wanted to be alone, you know, he was a widower, he had two small children. He might have just wanted to be alone and thought he could do a really good job without someone holding him back. I don’t know. Um, but, and
[28:12] Michelle: it was approved. He didn’t, he wasn’t disobedient in doing that. It was approved by the high and so that was, there’s, there’s plenty of like fudging the rules to cause these problems. And I really love your, your, um, seeds, the weeds and seeds, right? Because that’s exactly what it was. It was like, like how you talked about if you went back to 34 or even 44, the little seeds were planted early on and started to grow. When nobody noticed, right? And then they’re still growing. Like Joseph and Hyrum were trying to pluck them out. They were trying really hard. And luckily they had a few people like Hyrum Brown, that would come and say, Hey, this thing is growing, and they would go immediately and pluck it out. But that’s what eventually happened. These seeds just grew and like kind of choked out the garden. It’s, that’s by the time we’re in the Utah period in the mid-century. After 52, especially if they’re just choking out the garden and it becomes polygamy becomes the gospel. And I think that’s interesting for us. That’s why it’s such a good analogy. And what we are trying to do now is go through and like we like, like do that hard work of going, OK, those are weeds, those are those are weeds. These are true plants. Let’s let the sunshine come back on the plants because we’re getting rid of the weeds that are pulling off of. A faith out, right? So, so anyway, I think, I think that’s the hard work we’re trying to do right now. But so, so I thank you for spelling that out. What you basically are doing is giving us the story of how polygamy came into the church. So that’s exactly what the gospel topics narrative does is try to give us a high level overview of how polygamy came into the church and you are doing
[29:46] Gwendolyn Wyne: exactly the same historical details, just some, just enough to kind of be like,
[29:49] Michelle: OK. To anchor it down. And so what I want to tell people, Gwendolyn’s story is every bit as valid as the Gospel Topic essay in terms of, I would actually say yours is more anchored with historical sourcing than theirs is. You did a really good job of giving the specific things that are representative. of larger trends or a larger body of evidence to really anchor down the bits of the story you’re telling. So there is no, I would, it would be fascinating to watch a representative of the Gospel Topics essay and you have a discussion on the valid validity. Do, do you know what I mean? Because I think I, I want people to understand that, that Also, even though for for a really really um sort of kind of I I don’t know what the word is I’m trying to use that’s just, just our faithful friends who are like if it’s published on the church website and put out by the church it’s true if it’s not then it’s questionable even people who have that mindset. Please recognize that these gospel topics essays were prepared by historians. They are not signed by the leaders of the church. We need to have compassion for the leaders of the church who are trying to deal with this messy history that has exploded onto the scene. That they don’t have the answers for and they’re trying to be honest about it, trying to navigate this so this is not the gospel topics essays are not prophetic pronouncements from our the leadership of the church. They are historians uh trying to explain it in a way. That seems truthful and also seems palatable. It doesn’t succeed it either, I would say. So I would say give give Gwendolen’s a taste and and prayerfully say which one is closer to the truth, right?
[31:33] Gwendolyn Wyne: And I don’t I don’t think that what I’m saying is like 100% true. It’s like I think this is our best, this is what I’m saying is this is our best story. If Joseph’s not a polygamist, I don’t think he was a polygamist. I know a lot of people do, um, and they’re welcome to tell that story, right? Like I’ve heard so many different versions of that story. I haven’t heard very many versions. Joseph’s not a polygamist, and the leaders aren’t just absolute evil. That’s kind of where people go. They’re like, well, that means that they were all evil, and I know they weren’t all evil, so that can’t be true. And it’s like, all right, there’s a little bit more space for, for a different, a different narrative than that.
[32:12] Michelle: Absolutely and I want to get to that conversation because uh just before we started recording, I think Gwendolyn and I in so many ways are in similar spaces in our, our navigation of faith and the church and and the truths that we see and the challenges that we see. So that’ll be a great conversation to have because I really love that. So, um, but that was the first point I want to take and when you say you’re not sure it’s 100% true, I just want to clarify I know you I know you don’t, you don’t need this clarification, but for anybody listening, especially critically. That doesn’t mean that you intentionally misrepresented anything. You, that means you are taking the sources and and going, this is the most sense I can make of them. This is the most logical story that is that is consistent with all of the sources that I have that seem the most credible, isn’t like right? and and. Yeah, so, so, so you are doing your best job to tell the truth as much as you possibly can with an, an incomplete historical record, but you are using as much as you can to make it as complete as possible. Am I representing that correctly?
[33:13] Gwendolyn Wyne: Very well represented and my main, my main effort was. I don’t want to stand in accusation of of individuals because I don’t know their hearts. And also there were a lot of people who we just don’t know, I, you know, in the conversation we had with Whitney, it was, she was saying she thinks Wilfred Woodruff wasn’t involved until later. And I agree. I think that there were a fair number of them who believed in the principle of many wives and concubines, but thought that at some point it would, it would be established. And I think that it’s really hard to tell who knew what when, who started doing what when, unless you have Um, you know, habeas corpus, like produce the body of the babies that were born, unless you’ve got that, it’s kind of hard to say. So we do know that there were, you know, some babies born to polygamists, but other than, than those, it’s kind of a little bit hard and so I didn’t want to stand and accuse anyone. Of, of doing something that maybe they really didn’t do, right? Because that’s what I’m saying about Joseph. I’m like, hey, maybe he wasn’t. So let’s, let’s ease up on the accusations against him. Let’s just go with what makes sense based on the historical record, um, because I don’t think the story we’re telling makes sense. I think that there’s a better story, and I think this is a better story. I don’t, when I say I don’t know that it’s 100% true, as you said, it’s like, hey, I wasn’t there, right? So I don’t, and I also. right? Like I wasn’t given 100% true, right? And you know, in the scriptures it talks about like people receiving a vision of John the Revelator of all the things that ever were, and it’s like I haven’t had a vision of all the things that ever were. I’m just trying to make sense of it based on what I understand about human nature. Again, I spent a lot of time in prayer asking for help to see how this could have happened, um, if, you know, if people were genuinely trying to do their best, which I think. As a rule, people are trying to do their best and we make mistakes. Yes,
[35:11] Michelle: yes, I agree with that. So, OK, so I have so many places I wanna go with our conversation because I do love your approach and I wanna come back to that and talk about it more about the the benefit of the doubt. So one other thing that I wanna bring in right now is how what one thing that I loved is how you seamless. combine the scriptural approach with the historical approach in this episode because that’s really challenging and I don’t even think the gospel topics essays do that at all
[35:39] Gwendolyn Wyne: well. They can’t because there’s no support for it scripturally.
[35:43] Michelle: Right, so, so this, um, this narrative is completely consistent with the historical sources. I would say more so than the Gospel Topics essays, plus it is grounded even more securely by the word of God throughout. So we have a seamless model that is consistent historically with the historical sourcing and scripturally with the true commandments of God. So it’s not only, um, historically sound in, in the way in good historical work, but it is scripturally, theologically sound. And therefore, faith promoting, and the thing that’s amazing is you didn’t set out, well, I, I will say this. You could disagree, but it seems so clear to me that the writers of the Gospel Topics essays set out to try to do an apologetic. Presentation of this nastiness. Like, can we have this like rotting corpse of polygamy. What’s the best lipstick we can put on it? What’s the best color it can wear? Right? Like, that’s kind of what they’re doing. And, and, and I feel like you came to it actually much more honestly saying, like, you’re not trying. To do an apologetic work. You’re trying to say, what makes sense on all of these levels. And, and I’m reading that correctly? Because that’s what I felt from it. And part of what I loved so much.
[37:01] Gwendolyn Wyne: Thank you. Well, the main thing is, I know polygamy is a terror sewn by Satan. I know polygamy is not of God. Once you know that, how did this happen? Mhm. Right? Because that’s our whole story is based on God commanding it and all these things and it’s like, OK, well, I, I know God didn’t command it, because God doesn’t command us to commit abominations. So what happened? So that was really, that was the whole effort was like trying to, and, and what happened? Can I tell it in the way that is the least accusatory, um, because I, I’d rather not point fingers. I don’t know. I think, I think at some point we will know if anyone. Um, was truly a bad actor. Uh, we’ll be able to, to learn that in time. Um, I don’t know it, so I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna make stake my claim on any of that. I’m just gonna stake my claim on what I know to be true and then As you were saying, I just, I really just like, as I was doing the history, I was like, why don’t I just have the doctrine and covenants open, you know, I just went through them together and I was like, oh, look at this, look at what was happening at the same time. It’s just, it’s so straightforward. It’s so and then the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible. When you add in the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible, it’s like we’re done. This is, yeah, we’re done.
[38:18] Michelle: It’s that’s how I feel. I feel like people should just watch this and be like, like, like all the time now that I’ve started doing this work and learned more and more, I just imagine Joseph being like, What is wrong with you people? Like, what more could I have done? How more plain could I have made it? You know, like, it’s got to be insane. And watching, watching this lays it out in a way that I think again, clarifies that to people who really dig in. And so I thought it was so well done. And you have the benefit of dwelling in truth, so you don’t have to shut half of your brain off and keep things like. Oh, I’m kind of scared of the scriptures. Well, I’m trying to make the case for Joseph’s polygamy, so I have to tell half truths and I have to, like, I don’t, I don’t sense that in your presentation at all, right? I, I, I feel overwhelming consistency. Oh, yes. Yeah,
[39:10] Gwendolyn Wyne: you don’t have to be like, what happened? I don’t know. I know God is good. I know God doesn’t command evil. So let’s just, let’s see what
[39:17] Michelle: happens. Let’s dig in. Right? And every time someone’s like, Well, what about this source? If it’s something I haven’t delved into yet, I’m like, Oh, good. Let me dig into it. If, like, I started out doing that, saying, If Joseph did this stuff, I want to know it, right? I, I knew it wasn’t of God, but that didn’t mean Joseph didn’t do it, right? I wanted to dig in and see what he might have done. And now, after I’ve had this much experience of diving into things, as soon as someone brings something that they’re like, Well, what about this? Even if I haven’t yet digged into it. I’m like, OK, let’s go see what I’m going to find this time, because the record is so consistent that those things just dissolve. They just fall apart when you really look into them. Whereas this narrative of Joseph Smith that he told about himself becomes more and more and more firmed up. And, and, you know, like it’s more and more rock solid has been my experience at least. And I
[40:06] Gwendolyn Wyne: yours. Well, OK, so you’re, you’re actually, I feel like you’re Gifted in the historical area. I do not, my husband’s actually really a total history buff, and I’m like, maybe you could give me a hand here, but, but he doesn’t have a, a huge interest in researching this, cause it’s sad, I think. Also, he has other, I mean, once you figure out that people were saying things that weren’t true, it kind of becomes exhausting to try to figure it out. Um, but you have A lot more like bravery than I do in the historical area because when I do hear new arguments from the history, I’m like, uh oh, what does that mean? But as I’ve watched you and I believe Joseph Channel, and there’s a few other people who really have dug in. I’m like, all right, there really are explanations for this. Maybe, maybe we haven’t got it 100% right, but it doesn’t, it doesn’t stand up. Anymore, you know, that whole mountain of evidence really is, is kind
[41:05] Michelle: of I think often of this scale, because what, because there are a few pieces of evidence that I’m like, that’s a hard one. That I’m not quite certain what to do with that. I have a couple like that that used to make me think, you can’t, like Joseph did polygamy, because, but now I see those on the scale. I’m like, OK, those are there. But then on this side of the scale, it’s like, like for every One of these, oh, that’s kind of rough. What was that guy’s motive to say that? You have like 20 on this side that they have to explain away that are much more solid pieces of physical evidence. So I think, yeah, but and so I do want to talk about the history because this is what I find interesting. Gwendolyn, I feel like our paths in so many ways have really dovetailed. We’ve we’ve really gone on the same journey because for me. I started completely in the scriptures and in the theology. All I wanted to know is what is of God. And the whole, you know, people who’ve watched my channel, the whole Joseph history thing was like, uh, like that’s a big giant mess that I don’t care what Joseph did or not because I can’t figure it out anyway. All I want to know. Is what does God say? And I love the scriptures. I do feel, um, gifted in the scriptures. Like, like, I feel like you are too, you know, like I love having the scriptures unfolded to me and being just my inspiration led to the scripture I need. And that, that’s kind of one of the gifts that I feel like I’ve been given, that I’ve always loved. So I have spent all of my time in the scriptures. And to my sort of horror, I realized I had to go to the history, right? After doing this for so long, you have to go to the history. And so, because I’ve thought of you as like, OK, Gwendolyn’s continuing on with the scriptural digging into this history. And then all of a sudden you come out with this historical video that is phenomenal. So it’s, so I’m maybe I’m projecting that onto you, but I’m like, Gwendolyn, you just did the exact same thing I did that realized the history is important. Because of people’s faith and because we want to get the truth and know who the nature of God is, like, eventually, it gets down to where you’re like, oh, this question does matter. I thought I could leave it alone. The question of Joseph Smith’s polygamy. I thought I could leave it alone and not care. And then you finally realize it matters a lot. It’s, it’s the second importance to the nature of God. So I want you to talk about that trajectory because am I correct if that was your trajectory as well?
[43:29] Gwendolyn Wyne: I don’t want to stay in the history because it’s not my, like, like you’re saying, I love the theology and the scriptures. That said, our scriptures are hugely uh telling of the of the people and what happened in all the different. Experiences that people have and so, yeah, history is a part of it. I am hoping that after this, I have a, I have the, the path I’m on right now. I wanna talk about a, a few more things that are theological. I hope that I can. Go that way, but, but you can’t avoid the history if you want to be able to change people’s minds, I think, like you’ve said, we have such a commitment to our narrative and our doctrine comes. Out of the narrative that if we have any hope of refreshing our view of the doctrine of marriage, we have to, we have to be able to have answers for the people who are saying, well, what about this, what about that in the history. So,
[44:33] Michelle: Yeah, so you had to go and you’re exactly. OK, well, you wouldn’t know it from the video because you did it so well. It was just so beautifully done and I, I loved seeing
[44:47] Gwendolyn Wyne: cultural connection. It was not. I just want to like, I’m
[44:50] Michelle: likes us.
[44:53] Gwendolyn Wyne: OK, hemlock Hemlock knots was a big, was a big resource that I used, um, that was huge because they point you to everywhere. So there were a number of resources. There’s a part where John Bennett talks about. This is after John Bennett has left Navvo and he’s like, I’m an enemy to you, Joseph. He writes in the newspaper, um, a series of letters against the saints and specifically against Joseph and and John Bennett writes this letter saying, I’ve, I’ve heard, I’ve got news that there’s a new revelation. This is different from the spiritual wifery. This is about eternal marriage and blah blah blah. And so that’s kind of the first antagonistic. Example, uh, our first antagonistic evidence that we had that we have that there was a marriage revelation, um, and interestingly enough, he talks about that as being an answer to the question about Jesus’s teachings to the Sadducees about the woman with 7 husbands, and that’s what Joseph said. Was his original prayer and and he
[45:55] Michelle: said that consistently repeatedly in different at different times.
[45:59] Gwendolyn Wyne: And then lo and behold, weirdly enough, when it shows up in Utah, it’s like questioning about how God justified. I can’t even there’s a part of my video where I start reading from 1:32 and I get a little bit nauseous. You can kind of like hear my voice go like uh.
[46:15] Michelle: And it’s so funny because we also talk, oh, I wanna say it’s Orson Pratt. I, I, I wanna say it’s Orson Pratt, where he’s kind of telling that story and all of a sudden, he turns it into a man with 7 wives. He takes this narrative and like and says and and turn and which turns it on its head to pretend that it’s the story supports polygamy. Jesus supports polygamy like you’re like, what are they doing? Yeah,
[46:42] Gwendolyn Wyne: it’s crazy like the people, because, because Jesus said, you don’t understand the scriptures when when he’s answering when he’s answering this question, it’s like you guys missed it like you’ve you’ve completely missed it. So we really did a number on the scriptures there. But all that is to say that knowing it helps to know these things because you can then say like, oh, look, here’s, here’s just one more, one more point along the path of how this unfolded, how this happened. And so it was, it was very helpful for me. Um, Hemlock Knots had the, has Link to that resource to that source, so I was able to view the document and and see it in the newspaper and then I could use it in my presentation. So I would say that that was the largest um resource that I use because they’ve compiled it in the timeline form format. So thank you, thank you so much.
[47:35] Michelle: Yes, huge thank you to Mark Curtis, Peter J. Brown, others who have worked on that site, and oh, you’re making me realize I see. And I, I don’t mean to interrupt you. It’s just interesting because you and I, this is why it’s so important to have multiple voices because you and I are actually doing quite different things at this point because I find I’m now not using other resources. I’m just diving in and doing mostly my own original research, which, um, I’m like, oh, I should be using other resources more. It’s just really hard to know how to spend my time, you know? So, so, so anyway. I think it’s really interest. There are so many places now for people to dig in and get information. And really, like your video makes it easy for people to really get a, a well, um, presented in, um, overview that just goes, Whoa, that they can share with so many people. I think it’s, I think it’s profound. But, but anyway,
[48:30] Gwendolyn Wyne: my family, like. We’re all, you know, extended family for the most part, right? You know, people, people have their journeys and, and so it’s not, we’re not at 100%. But generally speaking, we’ve got, you know, a faithful, extended crew, and I don’t want my own family to be like, what are you saying? You know, it’s like, I want to be able to bring this to them and say, like, look, see, it’s OK, we can let this go. Because I feel like it’s just so funny to me that we’re holding on to polygamy. It’s just it’s a funny thing,
[49:01] Michelle: but isn’t it? Well, so, so, so a couple of other areas that I want to go in our conversation, but, um, this idea of compassion for our leaders, which I, well, compassion for all people. Right? And and trying to gain understanding. I love that approach and it’s what I know that I can be, um, I, I don’t know. I like that is actually what I want to do as well, right? And it’s a challenge to balance that because there are times when I’m reading these words, going. Ouch, this is horrible. This is so sickening. What and and it was not just what was said, it was the, um, sort of the articulation of the entire viewpoint and, um, the you that created the things that we know were happening that caused so much suffering. It’s similar to, um, well, well, I’ll, I’ll just go here really quickly and I’ll let you respond because I get frustrated. I was just having a conversation with a friend a little while ago, actually. Um, but, well, I, I went to a wedding in my neighborhood while I was having this horrible week of being de-platformed, and Rick Bennett was one of the people that I was like, I have to call him, and I couldn’t bring myself to call him. So I go into this wedding. This is how I know God is involved. I go into this wedding and I hear from one of the tables, Michelle, and I turn around. Rick Bennett is sitting at the table at my neighborhood wedding, and the, the bride,
[50:28] Gwendolyn Wyne: Michelle, that’s not gonna be happening.
[50:31] Michelle: It’s God. Well, no, not in France, but unless God wanted to because it’s not happening in Utah. Either. This was insane. The groom was his nephew. The bride is my friend’s daughter. And it was just, so we were able to talk this whole time. Anyway, so we were having a conversation about it. And one of the things that I just feel, um, frustrated about, because I get in trouble for being intense, because I’m intense about these things sometimes. I shouldn’t say I get in trouble, but, you know, he’s always like, if you don’t do it that way, you won’t you, you know, but, but what I’m feeling is like. Well, what I said to him, if we had an African American person reading what Brigham Young said, how can I put this into context and saying this is not of God, this is not OK, and it’s extremely offensive and it does harm. And we had the church still saying, no, it was of God. Oh, and by the way, you’re not allowed to say that because you’re out of line with the leaders of the church and you really were just less valiant. And this really is how God sees you, right? If that person got a little intense saying, listen to me, right? And this is not OK. And I’m highly offended that not only was it said, but that it is still being supported now, right? So look, I’m getting intense again. But, but I feel like we have at least completely rejected and condemned Brigham Young’s and well primarily Brigham Young’s statements on people of African descent. Thank heaven we have done that. I think we could go. Further and should go further to actually apologize and officially disavow all of it, you know? But I’m like, that is the position that I am in. And, and women in the church, but, but me, in particular, with all of this pressure and heat I am taking, that we have this much, this, a pile this big of what Brigham said about people of African descent. We have A massive overwhelming pile of what Brigham and so many other leaders said about women, right? That not only was said, was like implanted in devastating ways. We read our own history and see the suffering of our mothers, of our foremothers. We feel in our own DNA the trauma coming through of it. We try to say, Hey, this wasn’t of God, and it’s wrong, and we’re told, be quiet, shut up, sit down. You don’t get a voice, and you can’t be a member of the church if you say that. And so some Sometimes I get intense, right? Because, like, like, it’s really frustrating to me that people can’t see. This is the position that we are being put in as daughters of God and God’s restored church. This, this has to be dealt with in better ways. So anyway, I guess I’m just bringing all of that up too. I can’t even remember what my point was.
[53:24] Gwendolyn Wyne: I got something to say about it. So good. Well, you got. So I, I think there have to be all the different personalities have to bring our reactions to this, right? Because some personalities, and I, maybe it’s, I don’t know, I don’t know. There there’s like a million, maybe it’s wide, right? But it’s important for you to share your actual feelings on this, right? And I’m also sharing my actual feelings. I have been shown by God who women are, and polygamy’s got nothing to do with us.
[54:00] Michelle: No. And the teachings of our original leaders have nothing to do with us. They were just wrong.
[54:07] Gwendolyn Wyne: They were taught some true things. They taught some true things, but they were flat out wrong about polygamy. And then because of that, how the way that they understood women, women in women. Look at me, I’m turning that that that plural into a singer. Um, but because they misunderstood marriage, they misunderstood women’s proper stewardship. Um, but to me, I just can’t, like, it’s so funny. I feel so bad, but I think it might have been Michelle. Like, I was born a, I, sorry to trigger anyone. I was like born a feminist, so I just, my whole life was like. Seeing things and noticing, and as soon as I heard about polygamy, it was just the worst, right? But I also found out about the ceiling policies, and I was a child once I start, when I started saying, what’s that now? How’s that work? And I would regularly keep on, keep up on it. Like whoever had that blue handbook, I wanted to know what’s the ceiling policy right now. Can women can men still be sealed to multiple women? I was always up on the latest like I wanted to know, um, and I could tell you right now what our ceiling policy is, but doesn’t, you know, I was surprised. I was really surprised that the latest handbook changed. We just keep it in there. No, we, we, oh, I mean.
[55:25] Michelle: It’s not improving.
[55:26] Gwendolyn Wyne: OK, I, I mean, anyway, it’s staying,
[55:31] Michelle: all right.
[55:31] Gwendolyn Wyne: It’s, it’s still in there because we in our hearts as a body of, of, of the church, like we don’t know it. I, my feeling is, so first of all, we need all the, all the perspectives to share. My current perspective, after having been pained by this my whole life, I think it’s hilarious that we That we are so wrong, like I love it. I love it so much cause I really thought That this was part of God. I really thought it was part of eternity, and it’s so not that it makes me laugh, that that we’re like, no, it really is and I’m like, you guys like. It’s so it’s such a joke. Like it’s not at all. I’m so relieved. I’m relieved. I’m like I really genuinely happy and relieved, and I feel like every person I know who loves Jesus Christ actually is like doesn’t want this. They, it makes them deeply uncomfortable. Every person I know who’s happily married wants no part of it, but they’re like, uh, I guess maybe we have to. I hope not. I don’t want to think about it. I’ve talked to some of my like very faithful friends who are happily married and I said, OK, OK. So like, let’s just imagine. The savior comes again, and he’s like, OK, look, everybody, there was a little bit of a miscommunication, there was a misunderstanding, polygamy is like actually not a thing, so we’re not gonna be doing that. How would you feel? And Every one of them is like relieved. None of them are like, oh shoot, right? None of them want it. So I just think it’s so funny that people who love God, who love Christ, who love their spouses. Like, are defending, you know it’s like no, none of us want it. We don’t want it. So
[57:15] Michelle: you know that’s, that’s, that’s an important difference between um us and our experience because here I am in Utah as a homeschooling mom for all of these years. So I’ve been in circles and it wasn’t until I started speaking and claiming that polygamy was not of God that I learned. How many people there are who are deeply, deeply committed to, to polygamy, right? They love it. I mean, well, you what, there are women as well and and for for me, but, but they are, they are women who from my really pained interactions with them, I will say they have very little love for truth. These, these women that are the biggest proponents of polygamy. Lie all the time. They are, they have massive blind spots of hypocrisy where they accuse and they misrepresent and they right there, like, it’s really troubling to see how, I guess, how the kind of warp souls that are attracted to polygamy and how polygamy warps souls. And so, but what I, what I, I guess the reason I’m bringing this up is because people can often say, why do you care? This doesn’t matter, right? And like, oh, you don’t understand. First of all, it matters on multiple levels, but there is a really, um, loud and troubling group of people who love this doctrine, and there are many. People still suffering in it today and many people who maybe are still in the church. There, there are people in the church living polygamy secretly, not, not just a few. And there are many people in the church who, if you are a polygamist in your heart, just like Brigham Young said, the only men that will become gods or sons of gods are those who are polygamists, at least in in their faith. And the problem is that being a polygamist in your faith still impacts your marriage. You’re still thinking about your future spouses. You’re still, it, it enables, like I’ve said before, people actually use things like, like, like they justify pornography because that’s how God designed men, right? They like all kinds, that’s just one example.
[59:24] Gwendolyn Wyne: It it impacted my marriage, and I wasn’t looking forward to it, but it deeply impacted my marriage. So I can, I can only imagine if you’re Looking forward to it, how much of a daydream you could, you could put into that? Because every single day your spouse is gonna do something where you’re like, Well, that wasn’t ideal. And so then you immediately just, you’re, you’re creating these neural pathways and you’ve got a freeway heading right toward all the other women who will do things just the way that you would like them.
[59:51] Michelle: Your perfect imaginary, yes, your perfect imaginary future wives, right? And then for many of the women, it’s, it’s a hierarchy of competition to where it’s like, I’m going to be married to Joseph Smith. I’m like, this loser husband I have now, I will qualify for a much better one. That’s a common sentiment or women who are not married, it’s almost like I’m, it, it gives, it gives competitive souls a ladder to prove how faithful they are. It’s just troubling. All it’s the opposite of what Joseph was trying to present with this connected equality, right? And what God is trying to create. And Yes, what the adversary wants to create of this hierarchy, right? And so, so in the question of giving the benefit of the doubt, which I love, I love that. That’s where I, that’s where I went on my myself. Yeah. Um, I, I absolutely think we should do that without sacrificing, and I, I don’t think you do this without sacrificing truth and error. It’s, you know what I mean? Like, like I, if, if we use the analogy of a, um, A sexual deviant, someone who harms other people, right? I, there are words we can’t say on YouTube and RAPIST, for example, you can have compassion for them. Right, as a person and understand because of their circumstances and the right, we don’t have to say we hate you and God hates you. We shouldn’t say that, right? We should do the best we can for them without at all saying, oh, everyone just forgive, it’s OK, let it go without minimizing the harm that they did. And our priority needs to be recognizing the harm for the victim. And healing the victim and making sure the victim is not feeling re-victimized by our advocacy for the victimizer, right? And so that’s the challenge. I really do, but like, like I guess, I guess there’s a difference between because so many people are like, give Brigham a break or stop like they’re basically saying don’t talk about what Brigham did. That’s what they want.
[1:01:57] Gwendolyn Wyne: We’re not gonna figure it out unless we talk about.
[1:02:01] Michelle: Right, and what, yeah, what they said, what they did and how it was wrong. And actually, my feeling is when we do that, it’s when we do that, it makes compassion and forgiveness so much easier. If we have a victim. And we as a society are saying, oh, just let it go. They’re, they’re fine. Don’t worry about it. That person that’s been so harmed can’t let it go, can’t forgive because it’s up to them to prove. Do you know what I mean? They’re not feeling seen and validated, and it’s being acknowledged what was done to them, right? So I, I guess that’s what I wanted to say is. some people think that if if we are saying these are the things that that happened in this era and that these leaders did that we’re not being compassionate to them and I’m wanting to say that that’s actually not true. I do believe that a lot of these people started out well and in some ways had good hearts that you can come seeing through and we can see. The deception of the adversary coming in very clearly, and that deception did all kinds of mischief. I’ve said before, Brigham Young had the misfortune of acquiring way too much power because there are many people who would be absolute tyrants if they weren’t restrained by the circumstances of life that they don’t. Have the power to do that, but maybe they’re tyrants and their family or whatever their level of stewardship is, they’re tyrannical in it, right? And so, so anyway, I, I guess I want to have you speak to that because I’d like to think that I’m compassionate with them as well, and I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. But I never, but I, but I also want to speak to the people who say you shouldn’t be talking about what they did. Do you see the.
[1:03:42] Gwendolyn Wyne: Yeah, and I, I honestly thought you were gonna ask about current leaders, which I also think is,
[1:03:46] Michelle: oh yeah, I want to go there
[1:03:47] Gwendolyn Wyne: next. OK, OK, yeah, cause I think it’s helpful to, to, to talk about both situations, um, but, but with the past leaders. I mean, they, what, it’s already over, right? It’s already happened. So it makes sense to just look at what happened and say, Is this what we want? Do we want this? Do we want this again? Right? So one of my ancestors was 12 years old when she was poly polygamously married, and she was 13 when she had her first baby. So it wasn’t like she wasn’t a wife, like she was a wife. And I mean,
[1:04:21] Michelle: everyone listening, and especially the polygamist critics, if you can’t hear that. And have your heart break a little bit. There is something wrong because polygamy also kills compassion and empathy and being able to have Christ-like charity for victims. If you hear that, and, and you’re like, Well, they did it right. Like if your heart doesn’t break a little bit, there’s something wrong with you. Hey, I’m sorry. It’s, it’s frustrating how people insist that we cannot look at the suffering.
[1:04:49] Gwendolyn Wyne: You know what, no, I, I try to go through those things fast because it is too upsetting for me to think about, but like, Sometimes we do have to think about how upsetting it was, right? And that’s, that’s part of what If you think about this is a wound, and we are the body of Christ, like we have to, we have to clean out the wound. You you can’t heal a wound until you see what’s actually wrong with it.
[1:05:14] Michelle: You can’t leave all that dirt in there and say, just don’t look at it. It will fester, and that’s what this has been doing. It’s been festering.
[1:05:22] Gwendolyn Wyne: Yeah, so this has been that, that just that one little thing. I mean, that’s not even the only case. I went through my family history. I think everyone should do this is just an exercise of learning about your family because I was interested to see how polygamy worked for us, like, really, um. And there weren’t a lot of records for me to read. There weren’t, I don’t have any of the journals, but I just have the, the dates and the babies born and all that, and it was, they were, they were teenagers, they were teenagers being married to older men and um And it really is sad when people say, oh well, they’re like, I In researching and and doing this work, I, I’ve noticed that The group that talks about Mary, the mother of Jesus as being a 14 year old who’s getting married, that’s us. We’re the ones that say that. Nobody else out there is, is like pushing that.
[1:06:19] Michelle: We’re we’re saying it to justify polygamy. That’s we’re saying it to justify our perversions. That’s
[1:06:24] Gwendolyn Wyne: exactly right. You don’t have anyone else saying that because that’s like, that’s not what happened. It’s probably not. Like, probably she was 18. Because that’s kind of the normal thing. Like they didn’t at that time have these much older men marrying girls, right? It was like just what people usually do, which is like maybe a year or two older, 3 years marrying, marrying a woman who’s like woman.
[1:06:51] Michelle: Yeah, we have these unique polygamist viewpoints in several things, like that idea of a young Mary, the idea of God with a physical body, literally physically having intercourse with Mary to impregnate her. That’s a Mormon polygamist teaching. The idea that we, that the Old Testament, the, the like, like, shows us the polygamy. is of God because of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, right? No, none of the rest of the world looks at these stories and uses them that way. Like we should be alerted to that, that it’s not necessary and it’s not even the the best or logical explanation of them. And what’s crazy to me is that we have the additional tool of the Book of Mormon. That the Christian world doesn’t have that makes it so much more obvious, actually condemns David and Solomon for their abomination, and, and we still are the ones, it it is shocking to me. So, yeah.
[1:07:45] Gwendolyn Wyne: Book of Mormon tells us that Christ was born of a virgin. And it’s like, just believe it, right? If you like, just, just think, can anyone come up with a way for a woman to get pregnant today without actually having intercourse with someone? Sure can. It’s not that hard. Has all the time. I have
[1:08:06] Michelle: we have that. Technology that we can accomplish that God didn’t need to use our right. He didn’t even God did not, God, I again, they write the perfect um synthesis of the male and female both represented in the divine. God encapsulates both the male and the female did not need to use a physical sex or artificial insemination or anything else like. It says the the spirit came upon her, right? So and
[1:08:38] Gwendolyn Wyne: after she consented, after she was asked by the angel if she was willing, and she said that she was did not happen until Mary said yes.
[1:08:47] Michelle: That’s beautiful, beautiful message
[1:08:49] Gwendolyn Wyne: John wish she had a choice. Now, now I can’t remember where we were. We were talking about our leaders in the past just that I think it’s important for us to, um, we have to look at it and we have to, we can give them the benefit of the doubt for for what their intentions were that they were intend. to do good, but you still have to look at the fruits. And if the fruits are bad, you can say, Well, you tried to be a good gardener, but guess what? You poisoned the ground, right? Or you planted the seed, you nurse or you you nourished a weed. And I know you were trying, but this weed actually is, is deadly. We’re gonna,
[1:09:24] Michelle: and I don’t even necessarily know that like, like for me with how much I’ve read and studied, I think, you know, and, and how much wealth and power was acquired and how much like there really was a King Noah uh uh. Uh, um, you can find theocracies throughout the world with the, you know, like that’s what we had in Utah. So it was very self-serving, you know, but at the same time, what we can look at for me in my mind, so let’s go here now because what we can look at in my mind is what God. Was doing. And that it, it’s, it’s God’s problem, right? It’s, it’s God’s, um, allowing all of this to happen with, with God’s people. And so, so while we don’t, I think that the, the sooner and the better that we can acknowledge, those were really hurtful things that were done. And that we said and that we’re there that that created so much suffering. The sooner we can say that, the sooner people can go, OK, I don’t need to keep talking about the things that Brigham has said, because that’s been acknowledged. That’s what I’m wanting to say. The reason that I and others have to keep talking about this is because we keep being told, you, it’s not real, you can’t say it. It didn’t happen. It doesn’t matter. That is who God is. That is who you are as a woman, right? And that’s why. As soon as, as soon as that is acknowledged, right, right. Or, well, for me, I, I mean, it’s really painful because I do have so much hate and anger coming at me for simply saying what our past leaders said and did. And, and I want to just put that out there, that when we can heal that, we can put it to bed, right? Where I’m still trying to clean out this wound and having people just slap bandages on it and say, No, you’re not allowed to. Clean that out. As soon as they stop doing that and we get in and it’s fully irrigated, there’s no more infection causing dirt or other things, right? Then yes, we can put a bandage over it and let it heal. And that’s what I’m asking for. So I wanted to make that clear of why like me continuing to talk about things from our past and our leaders is not just saying, I don’t have compassion and it’s not just wanting to accuse, it’s wanting to say. This has to be dealt with. It has to be rejected. We have to say that was wrong. Even just things as simple as what Brigham Young said about Emma is not true and was wrong, and he should not have said those things. Those those were bad things to say, even something that simple, right? Would like start this path. So that’s why, oh, go ahead, yes.
[1:11:56] Gwendolyn Wyne: Well, so I take Having watched and paid attention and and noticed the pace of change in the church, I just take a a little bit. I just don’t expect anything to happen, even though I, I hear what you’re saying. Like I really do. And I agree that we have to, but it’s like we have to to what, right? Like, if we want to become the people that God wants us to be, we have to do these things. We may or may not as a people choose to do that. So I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna go right ahead and I’m gonna make those changes personally and I’m gonna put out my repentance for, for the general public because I don’t want to be a part of supporting sin anymore and idolatry, because that is a huge, huge problem, right? Like God said to have no other gods. Before the one true God, and then here we are saying, well, Brigham said, so it must be true, and it’s like, no, it’s it’s OK if he was wrong, like we don’t have to hold him up as the mediator between us and God. That’s not his job, that’s Christ’s job.
[1:13:04] Michelle: That’s a good clarification that oh, you, you go ahead and finish and then did you have just that just
[1:13:09] Gwendolyn Wyne: that my, my feeling is like we have to, but we don’t, we, we can’t like I have no control over that at all and so I’m, I’m the, the main thing that I felt. Um, in harmony with my spiritual pull to speak. I felt that, or push. I felt the spirit just, just so, um, strongly telling, uh, just from so many directions. I don’t know if it’s a push or a pull or both, but it was like, you have to start speaking up. And I, as I told you, I didn’t even know what I was supposed to say. I was like, I don’t know. I’ll just start writing. And that’s when all these themes came forward. And that was that I was writing and then I found you after I’d started publishing, and I was like, oh, we’re on the same path. This is so fun. Um, but one of the other things that for me personally was like, OK, check and check is that President Nelson asked the women to speak up with our impressions, our insights, and our inspiration. And so I I feel no, like, worry about this. I mean, I’m sure, I’m, I’m saying something uncomfortable, but for all the people that tell me I shouldn’t be saying this, I’m like, you know what though? I was asked, and I’m not expecting anything to change. I personally have changed, and I’m telling you about it because you asked. So, I Spend a lot of time referencing that, um, because I, I just think people get they go crazy about this cause they’re like, hey, you don’t have the keys. This is out of order, and I’m like, look, yeah. I don’t, I, I know I don’t have keys for any of this church administration. I’m not saying that I do, but the one who has the keys to administer the affairs of the church asked, and so we actually are in line. We are following the pattern. And if you’re God, and if you love a people who are kind of off course a bit, like we say that the prophet can never lead us astray, but the scriptures tell a whole different story. So if you’re God and your people have gone astray a little, a lot, whatever amount, and you really want to help them come back, you might lovingly and mercifully work within the structure that they have established to say, like, it has to be this way. We have said that it has to come through a prophet, and look what God did. God inspired the president of the church to ask the women to speak up. I think that is so merciful. I think God is so good. And I just, I hope that we’ll pay attention to what, how this pattern is unfolding. We were asked, we’re speaking up. This is, this is important to listen to the women because there are more and more women who are speaking up about this, and it’s just wonderful. And they’re not leaving the church over it. They’re just saying what they know to be true.
[1:16:01] Michelle: Right. And there’s something beautiful about the fact that God is, and when I say this, I’m just talking about what we feel inspired to do. But that God is calling so many women to speak up on this. I think it’s actually beautiful and profound, not to in any way minimize men, but there are answers and stewardships that come through women, right? And that women have voices that matter. And, and that’s one thing that frustrates me whenever, like, like, we love the term studying the art, right? Like, oh, you’re. Being the art. And, and as if, as if having a single insight or opinion or being asked by the Lord to share ideas is not allowed ever for women, because women in the LDS structure will never be in charge, right? And so women can never have influence or ideas or inspirations or callings by God to do things that, you know, without it being like, like, let’s just clarify, studying the ark, he actually went and touched the ark. So that’s That would be, like, Gwendolyn and I both wanted to discuss this a little bit, as we spoke about before. I, I, and maybe you see what I’m doing differently. I, I, I’m trying really hard to say, this is my idea. This is my insight, and this is a path forward that I think we can pray and hope for, that could be accomplished at some point. This makes sense. And I’m not in charge of what anybody does at headquarters. That’s not my domain. But the more of us Individually, that have this change of heart, that repent, the easier and more likely it is for a broader change and a more official change to be accomplished. But that doesn’t mean that I’m gathering signatures and doing petitions. And, you know, if someone feels like doing that, that’s their thing, but that’s not, that’s not what I feel called to do at all. And to me, that would be more like, hey, we need to help, uh, like, I want to clarify that, that I think that, um, It’s really that’s an important distinction that us sharing these truths is not out of line. It’s in obey it’s in, in, um, obedience to what our current church leader has invited and requested. We actually are being obedient. That’s a beautiful insight.
[1:18:15] Gwendolyn Wyne: Yeah. And a couple of thoughts about this. So 11 person did tell me about that. They talked about studying the ark, and I was like, you know, Christ is the ark, and so we aren’t supposed to be studying. What he had his doctrine, right? Doctrine of the doctrine of Jesus Christ, we are not supposed to be changing that, adding to it, you’re not supposed to add or take away from it. So this is, this is, and, and also we’re just That’s not what this is. Um, I also feel a lot of Compassion for the current leaders because they’re in a rock, in between a rock and a hard place. There, as you’ve said, there are so many people who deeply believe in polygamy, and frankly, like that’s our heritage is to deeply believe in polygamy. Like, that’s our default. We grew up with it. I think it’s less common for converts and maybe for different parts of the world it’s not so common, but just speaking for like a United States member of the church, polygamy is absolutely part of our doctrine, no question. So if you are our current leader of the church and you’re contemplating like maybe this isn’t. You’re contemplating something which could be a huge, um, schism in the church. They don’t want to cause that. They don’t wanna break the church apart. They also don’t want to, like, bring it back. And so I think that they are I don’t wanna speak for what I think because I don’t know, but I just feel compassion that they’re in a hard spot because no matter what they say, people are going to, it will offend and then people will say like you’ve, you’ve fallen away. It will be much better. One of my one of my girlfriends has talked about, we’ve talked about this before, sometimes you listen to general conference and someone will say something and you’ll say, oh, I already knew, I, I learned that through the spirit. The spirit taught me that that’s how I understood it. And it’s so much better for us to all be taught by the spirit and then for as a body for us having this collective knowledge of truth for us to be able to move forward in that truth and so that’s that’s what I think would be so that’s why I’m kind of like, I don’t know what the leaders are gonna do. I’m so grateful I’m not a leader. This would be a very challenging thing to navigate. I think there are, there are paths to navigate it and I think the Lord particularly. Would inspire those in leadership to go forward on the correct path if they were asking for that assistance, which they may not be right now and that’s OK too.
[1:20:50] Michelle: Yeah, yeah. Well, I, I, I, I think I have just a couple of things to say. I think that, um, while I, I agree with you, I, I’ve been told by people who have conversations with the top leaders of the church and the top forums that they hate many of them. I can’t speak for all of them there, but they hate this topic. They would. It would go away. She was telling me in a little way, like, just so you know, they really hate this topic. They want it to be buried, right? And I understand that. But the thing that
[1:21:22] Gwendolyn Wyne: stumbling block, it’s a huge stumbling block. And especially if you don’t know what to say, you’re like, I don’t know. I know God loves us. I know, I know it’ll all work out, you know, and people, people are like, it’s not enough. I need to know. Tell me. And they’re we’re expecting them to tell us.
[1:21:41] Michelle: They are the, the monster of polygamy is this giant horrible thing, and they are going to battle armed with the gospel topics essays. No wonder they hate it. Do you know what I mean? Like, that’s your tool to to to deal with this huge ugly thing. That’s, that’s not fair to them. It’s a horrible situation for them to be in. And I do want to make the point that what I, that I, I just came up with that analogy, but I think it’s a good. One. It’s like, here you go. Go, go deal with this issue. It’s kind of like older Ballard said to the seminary teachers, like, Go deal with this issue. Oh, here you go. Have fun with that. And we have had some horrible seminary lessons in the wake of that. A lot of really horrible ones. Because it’s not a good, it doesn’t work. But, um, what I like, what I laid out in my way forward, because I think this is true, is that the church has had to have much more difficult things that they’ve done. In the past, right? Like I spelled out, the 1890 change followed by the 1904 change and that whole getting rid of polygamy as they did all the way up until the 1920s. Like that should have been, that felt like an existential threat. And it did create some division. But look at what’s happened as a result, right? And then again, in 1978, with the priesthood ban and the racism in the church, they didn’t do it perfectly. They were forced to, but still, look at that there was still racism in the church that offended. Quite a few people, probably more than changing polygamy would offend today, right? So that’s I, I think that racism was pretty like, like in Utah where people didn’t have to deal with it and they’ve just been taught the ideas of the church, that was a pretty big change for a lot of people, right? People,
[1:23:28] Gwendolyn Wyne: they’re fighting hard to keep the women being presided over. It, it’s right,
[1:23:34] Michelle: but it, but it, but I guess I just still feel like. This doesn’t need to be this big scary thing. If we actually look at it and say, What’s the solution? Because honestly, every single time we choose truth. Every single time we let go, we shed falsehood. We just repent in some small way. It is met by blessings being poured out. And that’s why I do feel like, oh my gosh, this would be amazing if this happens, because it, it would just bear such good fruit. And even if it offended some people. It would be a tiny minority that it would offend a huge majority that it would relieve all of the converts that aren’t even taught about polygamy. It would, it would just get rid of so many problems. And I’m hoping that at some point, I know that it might be a challenge when we have current leaders who maybe are more true believers in polygamy than President Hinckley, for example, was. I know that our current leader has cited, um, sections of 132 way more. More than any past leader in the last 80, 100 years, right? So, so maybe it’s not going to happen with this current leadership, but I do believe that this is a possibility that I personally, while I’m not studying the ark, no one can tell me I can’t pray for an outcome, right? I often, when I’m struggling with something with my husband, I will pray to the Lord for wisdom and then pray for him to be able to see something or for, you know what I mean? Speaking something to God, petitioning God for help in some areas is not studying the ark. And they’re like, that’s what we’re supposed to be doing. So I do hope that people will be willing to continue to petition God because so many hearts can be healed. Like what we are doing, I think is really important, but we don’t have anything like the influence that the, the church has. And so that’s why I, I Willing to pray for that and and if people have a problem with that, I understand, but that’s what I feel inspired to do and I do feel like, oh please, anyone who feels so inspired, join me because this could do so much good and save so many people from suffering and like the um the invitation Gwendolyn offered a little while ago to pray for the people still in polygamy that’s that’s where you know because I feel like the the more that we can. The polygamists love our gospel topics essays. The current polygamists use our gospel topless essays just as the current anti-Mormons, the most anti-Mormon people love our gospel topics essays. That is painful to understand that our church is actually fueling our biggest enemies on both sides, like, or the people that are. You know, just run, yeah,
[1:26:23] Gwendolyn Wyne: we’re in a pickle. We, we’re really in the kind of pickle where I really, to me I’m like. We need the savior. We need a redeemer. It’s too much for us to get out of on our own, I think. Um, but I,
[1:26:35] Michelle: I, well, I, well, I agree, I still I’m like, but this could, this could happen, and my goodness, it would be profoundly beautiful. It would be profoundly beautiful just to with some humility, just say, we’re not quite sure about this. There are some problematic things and we’re going to look at it. Can you imagine what that would do?
[1:26:56] Gwendolyn Wyne: So interestingly, um, I took a survey. It was before general conference. It was just one of those surveys that’s like for members of the church, you know how you end up sometimes occasionally, very occasionally. I
[1:27:08] Michelle: was sent to you, yeah,
[1:27:09] Gwendolyn Wyne: OK.
[1:27:10] Michelle: The church was doing a survey that you were given. OK.
[1:27:13] Gwendolyn Wyne: Mhm. And you know I asked about garments and all these things I’m like, I’m like, you know, wear them while I work out and all that. And then at the next general conference, I was like, did they use those questions to like evaluate that not enough people and I was like, oh. But one of the questions asked in the survey was, do you believe Joseph Smith was a polygamist? And I was like, oh, that’s, and it, and it had a range, right? That, that, that was like very strongly, moderately, yeah. So I was like, do not believe in any way at all. And so I thought it was so interesting that they were asking that. They asked a lot of questions all over the board. Where I was like, what is this about? Like there was all sorts of stuff, you know, something about Abuse. Like if a person was, I don’t think I’m supposed to, I don’t know. I don’t know. I wasn’t, I didn’t sign an NDA before I took the survey, but like, oh, I’m sure
[1:28:13] Michelle: you could talk about it, yeah,
[1:28:14] Gwendolyn Wyne: but I didn’t, I didn’t take screenshots or anything and now I’m probably gonna never get another survey again. But it was like if a person is accused of abusing a small animal, like how bad do you think that person would be? Just crazy stuff where I was like, what? What are we? What’s going on here?
[1:28:30] Michelle: Did
[1:28:30] Gwendolyn Wyne: someone’s
[1:28:31] Michelle: child do that? Like that’s a really weird question. OK, I
[1:28:35] Gwendolyn Wyne: have no idea. There was a bunch of things where I was like, what are we trying to figure out? And then at conference I was like, Well, I can see what they did with the garment information and now all the sisters are being reprimanded for it. Um, but the Joseph Smith one was so interesting to me because of, of how this is, you know, catching steam, um, so anyway, so I know that there’s an interest. I have no idea though how. I don’t know all the ins and outs of how public relations works and how focus grouping works, but I know that they’re learning about it to to just kind of take the temperature of the membership of the church, and I think that’s a great thing. I think it’s a really good thing. Um, information precedes inspiration so I don’t, I don’t have a problem with it. It was just something of note.
[1:29:23] Michelle: So yeah, I think that’s interesting and actually kind of beautiful and hopeful that like they’re at least asking the question. You know, because I think what in a way we can see what we’re doing as trying to provide cover for them in a way like, look, if enough people are like this problem could be solved. It really could be solved and and they have the ability to just. Oh, OK,
[1:29:48] Gwendolyn Wyne: because of the connection to the polygamy is the thing where if you let it go, then we also have to, we, we would just have to, and I think we should let go of this, this saying that the prophet can never, the president can never lead the church astray. Those are, those are too close, I think, to be able to let go of one and not the other, and they should be both let go of, but I don’t know that. So
[1:30:14] Michelle: this is a debate. This is a debate that’s had often that I think we should just have right here really quickly because I the last thing that the, the last thing on my agenda to talk about is this question that people throw at me often, and I’m assuming maybe, maybe you have a little bit different audience. Maybe I have more hate viewers at this point than you do, you know,
[1:30:33] Gwendolyn Wyne: that are watching things. may be the case.
[1:30:36] Michelle: But
[1:30:37] Gwendolyn Wyne: it’s like because you’re willing to put yourself out there so much. And I’m like, maybe, maybe, I don’t know, you know.
[1:30:43] Michelle: Yeah. So people like, like on every side accuse me of being a hypocrite for staying in the church, right? Or like, you can’t have the church and not have polygamy. And so, and I just I so disagree with that and not out of motivated reasoning. Just logically, I disagree. And so let’s get into the question of the prophet can never lead us astray and polygamy. Because for me, as I’ve said so many times, we have already acknowledged and discarded and condemned every one of Brigham Young’s original doctrines, including. Me, we just won’t keep building on the foundation that was set by Wilfred Woodruff and and the Heer J. Grant. And then President Hinckley, right? Gordon B. Hinckley. We have all of, like, we have this beautiful little stepping stone that we can just take the next step and do it. So for me, the idea that the prophet can never lead us astray already depends completely on ignorance. It depends on the ignorance of the people because they haven’t. That was for so long we were told, don’t read the Journal of Discourses because they didn’t, they wanted to protect this idea of prophetic infallibility. I know they say it’s not that, but it is, right? And so it it is that. And so, right, right. And so that’s what I’m saying because in 1890, we have on record Brigham Young, John Taylor, I mean. All of the leaders saying this is the gospel. This is the means of exaltation. Not only is it necessary for it, it’s how it’s accomplished. It’s what it actually is. And if the church ever gets rid of polygamy, you will know it’s an apostasy, and the church will never get rid of a polygamy. The church and polygamy became synonymous. They were the gospel and polygamy, I should say, right? So, So we met and we had the like we had the you follow the prophet, you follow your priesthood head embedded even more firmly than than we do now because it was a life they had control over you in every possible way, right? And so The fact that we managed to sever those and the church survived is incredible, right? I really think John Taylor, well, we know he would have let the church go to destruction because of his commitment, his genuine belief that that was what was necessary, right? And so. He, he gave us life, right? So for Wilfred Woodruff to be willing to go, OK, God is showing me the destruction of the church. I believe in polygamy, but I believe in this revelation of God, and I see that this must be right, even though I’m confused about it. And was willing to do that if the church was ever going to break that was when, right? And it didn’t we do have this we have this continued schism, but now the church went on to thrive just the church itself even though there were the break offs and there were these problems that still continue on today, the church. Was the church would have broken if they hadn’t done it right to possess the victims were being possessed but like it was breaking them because of the curse on the land and it, it saved the church right? so it didn’t break the church and that was way harder and then the same we
[1:34:08] Gwendolyn Wyne: we saved but we still had a further fracturing because of the sin of holding on to this tradition but yes, I agree completely.
[1:34:16] Michelle: Right, but we already, the church broke from its very beginning. We have the RLDS, we have the Bickertonites, we have the Heterites, we have the Strangites, we have, like, like, if the idea is like, keep everyone together, you can’t have anything, right? And, and, and right now, the church is breaking. How many 10s of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands of people have left in large part over the emergence of this terrible narrative of polygamy. That’s been one of the primary causes, right? There are some others as well, but that is a primary one.
[1:34:47] Gwendolyn Wyne: In the comments, I was talking with someone who was saying, I was saying, you know, if you look at, there’s there’s some pretty popular um people out there creating content that that tells our polygamy story, and the only difference that they have is that they don’t say it’s from God. And It really is very stark how bad it is and also their content gets hundreds of thousands of views like so many people know about this, and then it just brings more people out, out, out, out. I know that the the numbers on millennials who have left the church is over 50%, but might be like a lot higher because of this sort of historical. this, this problem is just it’s such a stumbling block. So yeah, please go on.
[1:35:40] Michelle: It is and entire families that are like he was the big and she was the relief society president and now they’re out all of their children and their grown children are out, their parents are out like it’s, it’s just like, what are we doing? What are we doing? What are we doing? You know, we’re just not navigating things well on a series, you know, on a multiplicity of fronts that I’m hoping we can start doing a little bit better. So anyway, I guess that’s why I disagree so much because with the blacks in the priesthood, same thing. I, I hate using that terminology, but um the priesthood ban and the racism against people of African descent that was also. Said by multiple leaders of the church and have somewhat recently been republished in Mormon doctrine that quoted Brigham Young saying until the last seed of, you know what I mean, until this happens, this will never end. Right, right, right, and they changed it. That, that undermined every the prophet can never lead us astray, right? They managed to keep it and we got a new song, follow the, you know, like it’s just, I guess what I’m saying is this actually is a piece of cake compared to previous changes that we’ve had where we have the exact.
[1:36:56] Gwendolyn Wyne: Yeah, when you see it that way, it is a much simpler change. I just think that it would be. Yeah, I mean, yes, I just think it’s better for us to let go of the prophet can never lead the church astray because it’s totally unscriptural. So
[1:37:10] Michelle: I don’t even think we need to necessarily disavow it. We could just stop emphasizing it. We’re reprinting songbooks. We could take that out of the primary songbook, right? And we could just stop emphasizing it as much. And like, instead, prophets point to Christ. Instead of the prophet can never lead us astray, if we could have the new statement be prophets point to Christ, wouldn’t that be like something we could all rally behind and that It would also tell, it would, it would still tell us to keep our eye on the prophet because prophets point to Christ,
[1:37:42] Gwendolyn Wyne: which is, and everyone is accountable under the law. I mean, that’s, that’s part of the establishment of the law of the Lord was like, everyone has to follow it, even your leaders. And if anyone’s feeling a little bit like, uh, where does it say this in the scriptures. Doctrine and Covenants 107 lays out what to do if any of the presidency, including the president of the church, transgresses, you’re supposed to remove that person so that you’re
[1:38:10] Michelle: saying no one’s above the law, like
[1:38:11] Gwendolyn Wyne: no one’s above
[1:38:12] Michelle: you can’t just, you can’t just have a leader of the church like like say whatever the current leader does matters whatever anyone else. Said or whatever the scriptures say doesn’t matter as much as what the current leader says. That’s like insanity. That’s insane.
[1:38:27] Gwendolyn Wyne: And even the the strongest place is Joseph Smith translation of Mark 9, which I mentioned in this video that I did. The Joseph Smith translation of Mark 9 expands Christ’s teachings on the foot, the hand, and the eye. And now I’m gonna mix it up because I’m trying to remember all three,
[1:38:47] Michelle: but he does assign positions of leadership to each of those, to each
[1:38:52] Gwendolyn Wyne: of
[1:38:52] Michelle: those in our eyes, right,
[1:38:53] Gwendolyn Wyne: OK. The eye is he who is appointed to be your seer. If he becomes a transgressor, you must pluck him out. Right, because it is better to go into heaven with one eye than to go in with two eyes to hell. And this is talking about a body of people and their leaders. So
[1:39:14] Michelle: it’s just the feet are those who lead you, the feet are the prophets, but the leaders who march before you and show you where to go. Isn’t that so one of those is a symbol of leadership, each of those is actually a symbol of leadership. OK, OK,
[1:39:28] Gwendolyn Wyne: the three are about leaders and how essential it is for the people to know the law and hold their leaders accountable to the law.
[1:39:41] Michelle: It has to happen. The entire story of the scriptures, the Old Testament, like Jesus tells us to study Isaiah. That is the whole story of Isaiah is the leaders. The blind leading the boy and see who can’t see that right and Jeremiah and like the more you read, the more you see God gives us these messages and it’s not that we demean our leaders just the same as we were saying we have compassion for them, but we don’t put them on a pedestal to think that they have better access to God than we have and we don’t assign our allegiance to them rather than to God, right? That’s the that’s the difference I think it’s not trying to demean them it’s just trying to. I have them in the proper order in the proper context and so what do you say to people like I’m gonna anyway, so have I convinced you that that we’re OK to let this doctrine go without.
[1:40:32] Gwendolyn Wyne: I’m, I’m convinced. I, I think it is a hard road to. To, uh, we’ll, we’ll just see, we’ll see how I just don’t have any, I don’t have any expectations because I’m like, you know what, I can’t pin my hopes on institutional change, um, because, yeah. I just like I have no control over the institutional change. I can’t hope for it, but I can, but I can hope for, I can hope that my personal repentance will be uh a positive example to fellow believers. That’s like kind of the most that I can personally hope for. Um, I do think about the example in the Old Testament of the daughters of Zolofaha who came before Moses, and they were like, hey, this is the rule, but here’s our personal situation, and we think that our personal situation actually merits you revisiting it, and Moses. Here’s them and he goes to the Lord, and he asks the Lord what he should do. And the Lord validates what the daughters of Zafa had have offered as a solution. So I think there’s just so much scriptural. Um, uh, thank you. There’s so much scriptural precedent for this. It can’t be something that we force. It has to be something that, um, is, is taken up by our brothers and, and a united effort. So I hope, I, I have hope, but I just don’t have any particular institutional expectation, but I do. I do see so much change in people’s hearts that I’m, I’m like, to me that it’s already worth it. 100%. I’m like, I’m so glad I did this because other people see what I see. And isn’t this so much better? Like, I just feel so grateful and relieved at the change that has happened in, in the hearts of people. And
[1:42:25] Michelle: I,
[1:42:26] Gwendolyn Wyne: and I’ve mentioned this before, but like, it’s not just Regular members, a lot of leaders have changed their hearts. We just are quiet about it right now, right? We’re just until everyone’s in a better place, I think
[1:42:41] Michelle: people are quiet. Yeah, this is, this is why I think this is an issue, because, um, so because I think that hope and that I would, for me, I’m asking people to couple it with faith. I don’t think there’s a problem with praying. That a way that that there could be a change at some point just like people were pleading with the Lord for the priesthood band to change that, that is, I, I, I want to invite people and request people to please join us, you know, like, like please exert our faith that we could overcome this issue. And there are other issues that people can exert their faith to. As well, whatever they feel inspired, but this is one that I think there’s such a clear path forward that would be so beautiful that that God asks us to exert our faith, and we’re asked to pray for our leaders. We’re asked that all the time. So I think and and one thing that is hard for me is when I, you know, we’ll say, pray for our leaders and people are like, they can’t because They can’t because, you know what I mean? And they have their, like, like kind of like you said, like they can’t because it’s so interwoven or. And I’m like, OK, first of all, is there anything God can’t do? Right? And second of all, oh, they very easily can. And, you know, I mean, I really like the story of Lester Bush’s essay that President um Kimball read. That that allowed him to see a way forward, right? That’s a beautiful talk about Zalofa head’s daughters, right? Like, like Lester Bush was not saying you need to do this. He was not campaigning, but he was doing exactly what I feel like we’re trying to do, what I’m trying to do, you know, to say, look, here’s a way forward. That that is a possibility and, and I’m not telling them to do. I’m just trying to present to the people options that I’m hoping that maybe there could be a triple up trickle up effect through our faith. If we have compassion for our leaders like we’re talking about, then we should be praying for them. And if we could like they could. Through our prayers and our support, have the empowerment to take this huge monkey off their back. Wouldn’t they be in such a better position, right? And so, like, that, that’s all I’m trying to say is when, like, like, instead of saying they can’t because, which is really us condemning the church, saying there’s no hope for the church, they can’t get rid of this, right? Like we could instead have compassion and faith and hope, and for Forgiveness in our hearts and just say, man, even, even for people who have left the church and have disaffiliated or anything, can we at least recognize the good that this would do for so many tens, hundreds of thousands of people if the church undid this nasty mess from the past, if we, if we let it go, right? If we just let the stinking corpse be buried where we don’t have to keep dragging it around with us. Like, even those who oppose. The Church, please exert your faith in that. That’s my plea is that if we will stop saying they can’t, and then stop and instead say they can, and pray that perhaps they will. That’s, that’s why I think this matters, if that makes sense.
[1:45:50] Gwendolyn Wyne: I think it’s a beautiful, I think it’s a beautiful thing to hope and have faith in. And I hope that I can be a little bit more oriented that way. I have, I just personally had given it a little distance just because I don’t want to have my heart broken, um. In that way, right? Because I, I feel like I already had had too much pain at like the, the, the teachings of the church that I’m like, oh, I’m so grateful that we’re wrong, you know, I’m just so grateful. And
[1:46:18] Michelle: so, so here’s an invitation that I think would be a good experiment for many of us to do, right? And it’s something that I have part of the reason I’m so, um, I guess, kind of, um, hopeful, I guess is the best word, or, or, you know, I do see this as a possibility because I feel like the Lord showed me, do you know what I mean? like gave me some experiences that I was not expecting. And so it’s an interesting, I’ll just issue this invitation for anyone who feels like taking it up. Like, kneel down and ask. Kneel down and ask, Lord, what is possible? What, what should I exert my hope, or my faith for? And, and, you know, like, when we are praying for a way to be opened, that doesn’t necessarily mean we are saying it has to be or, you know, we are just giving some faith. I, I, I just want us to stop saying the church can’t, and instead say the church can’t. The church could, and recognize the truthfulness of that. That’s my prayer for all of these people engaged in this, right? And, and again, it’s the people who have left the church, a lot of times who hate the church and who hate Joseph Smith, who say to me, they can’t. The church can’t do this. And I’m like, Don’t tell me what the church. Do you know what I mean? This is my church. So, So anyway, that’s why I think that’s a more and, and just ask the Lord because I think the Lord wants us to be looking at possibilities more than impossibilities. I think that that’s that the Lord this a scarcity mentality is not of God, right? Should we say like, Lord, we’re not taught to say that this can’t happen. We’re taught to say stand back and watch what the Lord can do. And that’s what it will be.
[1:47:55] Gwendolyn Wyne: Have I told you, um, my, my Lester Bush connection, have I told you that before? I think
[1:48:01] Michelle: I don’t know.
[1:48:02] Gwendolyn Wyne: So I, I’ve mentioned this in, and like one video I mentioned this, it was so funny because during COVID, we had like a hemorrhage of families move out, so many people moved out because right away everyone was like, oh, our kids can’t go outside and use the park, we’re gonna go home to Utah. So we just lost a lot of people. And um we had a few people move in and one of them was this, this couple, just this really solid, um, wonderful, wonderful woman who I just love so much. And I got to know her and I just, she’s just one of my favorite people. And I was mentioning what I was working on now, right? And I was like, oh, I’m actually writing something about, um, polygamy and blah blah blah blah blah, and it’s like kind of tricky. Um, and she said, oh, have I told you about what my husband did? He, he wrote something about, you know, the priesthood band, and I was like, wait a minute now. It’s like, your husband, she’s my husband Lester, and I was like, your husband’s Lester Bush. It’s like, Yvonne, I had no idea. It was just this crazy thing where I was like, I can’t believe that like while I’m working on this, that this person that I know and love, like I just, they moved into our board and he’s since passed away. And but she is just such a wonderful person and so we were able to have this conversation, just, you know, a little bit about what that was like for, from her perspective as he was doing that work and she was just so encouraging and supportive and loving um and. It is so, so it is hard. It is lonely. You do not get the support, the praise, the good job, and if change comes, then you’re not gonna be told you were right. Like it’s, it’s not gonna be like that if history is an indication. But personally, personally, it is worth it to put in the effort. Personally it’s worth it too. And, and what he did was kind of craft a historical narrative saying like, here’s how this priested band came about. It did not start with Joseph. Like you can see in the record from
[1:50:08] Michelle: God and
[1:50:09] Gwendolyn Wyne: did not come from God.
[1:50:11] Michelle: I like how you explained that Lester wasn’t glorified publicly and given any credit, but you know what, if I think that his goal, I, I, I believe that his goal wasn’t his own aggrandizement. I think his goal was truth and helping people see the truth about this horribly painful falsehood that was being propagated, right? And so I think the same goes for us. Like, if your goal or my goal or anyone else’s goal is self-aggrandizement, I want credit, then yeah, we’re gonna be disappointed, right? But if our goal is to bring forth truth, like, for me, My biggest hesitation of, of trying to present the way I see it as a possibility is that I don’t want the church to say, Great, now, we can’t say that. You know what I mean? Cause I know, like, I don’t, I don’t want to, I, I feel like it needs to be said, but I, like, no part of me is seeking glory or a grand. They’re going to say, Hey, Gwendolyn, Michelle, come speak. In general conference and tweet us about I mean, no, it’s just I, and I believe you care about truth and bringing truth to as many people as possible. And for me, if the historical community starts to engage with this, that helps more people see credibility in the truth and if the church leadership starts to engage with it, it’s up to them, you know, that saves more people. That’s what that helps more people become awakened and get to experience this joy of truth and the peace and relief of letting go of falsehoods that force you to shut down your spirit, force you to shut down your mind and dwell in this little box of falsehoods where you can’t look at anything because it might shatter this little. I want more people to Experience what we’ve experienced. And that’s why I’m hoping to broaden the, um, if that makes sense. It’s not, I, I love this story you shared of Lester because it’s like, OK, that’s awesome because even if no one else ever knew, he knew that he wrote that and that he was speaking truth and that at some point a change was made that had to be. Incredibly delicious to both him and Yvonne. I would assume.
[1:52:23] Gwendolyn Wyne: I agree. And to that, to that end, I think I am going to take, um, for anyone who wants to watch the video that I did, welcome to. I think I am gonna just take it and just put it on my website as a, as a. Not a transcript, but basically just that because some people just don’t want to sit and and listen and that’s fine too. So if anyone, I’ll maybe I can get that done before you post this video. If not, it’ll be on my website soon, but I’ll, I’ll just send you the link, Michelle, so you can put that there and, and I’ll just have like a PDF.
[1:52:54] Michelle: Transcripts are so helpful. That’s great. OK, I’ve,
[1:52:58] Gwendolyn Wyne: I’ve used yours on 132problems.org. I’ve used those quite a few times. That was one of my other helpful things. Hemlocknos your channel, Whitney via text, and then a. Oh, I had another, um, anonymous commenter who helped me a lot, so thank you.
[1:53:13] Michelle: Oh good. OK, that’s so you had a little like, um, a, a, a, a fairy godmother that was or a fairy godfather sending you in
[1:53:21] Gwendolyn Wyne: fairy godfathers who was just some people, they know a lot about the history and in ways that I am a little bit insecure, so I was like I need. To have a bit of a sounding board because I have some ideas and I don’t know if it’s just like, obviously not that couldn’t have happened, right? Because sometimes you, you have an idea and someone’s like, Well, that couldn’t have happened because the house wasn’t built then, right? Or whatever.
[1:53:46] Michelle: So,
[1:53:47] Gwendolyn Wyne: funny enough, that to happen to the polygamy testifiers that happened to them a lot, but
[1:53:52] Michelle: Again, it’s continuing, it’s continuing to happen. So my last question that I have for you, and then if you have, we have a few minutes left. So how do you navigate Um, staying in the church, because I think you are also very active and faithful in the church and believe that’s where you’re supposed to be and where your family is supposed to be, and people will often bring up things like keys or, you know, you know, where they’re trying to prove that. Polygamy deniers, people who believe that polygamy is not of God, and then polygamy is not of Joseph Smith, that somehow we can’t be in the church, and I think that’s insane for a for a multitude of reasons, but I’d love to hear you, how you navigate that.
[1:54:36] Gwendolyn Wyne: So, we currently are serving in the primary, which I love because I just get to Show up every week. I get to participate in the sacrament meeting to take the sacrament, sing, worship, and then I get to just show love for these primary children. And you know, I don’t
[1:54:52] Michelle: try to learning French,
[1:54:55] Gwendolyn Wyne: um, I wish I was learning French. Uh, well, in Austria they speak German and so German is the language that we should be learning.
[1:55:03] Michelle: That’s your, you’re on vacation,
[1:55:04] Gwendolyn Wyne: yeah, yeah. But, um, uh, we go to the English speaking ward because we just wanted to make sure that our children like weren’t really upset about what we did by moving to another country. We’re like at least church will be familiar to them. OK, um, anyway, so I don’t like, I’m really careful to make sure that I don’t say anything to these little children. I mean my, my little 5 year old’s in the class with us, so like they’re little, right? So I’m not, I’m not gonna bring, yeah, like I’m just gonna teach them. Very simple things, um, anyway, so I had just the most wonderful experience last Last time that we were teaching, like 3 or 4 of the children in the primary just like came up and hugged me and like one, you know, sat on my lap and they just like wanted to be close to me that day. And I felt like, this is so sweet and I just felt so grateful. Like I, I thank God so much that I have the opportunity to show love for other people, right? Cause there are so many people in this world who do not feel loved in the church, out of the church, right? And so that’s Become really important part of my identity as I’ve, as I’ve grown and watched the, the pain that’s in the world and as I’ve experienced it myself and been healed from it, so much of the pain. That is in this world is unnecessary, like so much. So a huge part of my church worship is attempting to be a, a healing presence, um, to, to follow in Christ’s footsteps and to just be a healing presence in someone’s life. And I, I love that right now I get to be that for the little children. It’s so special, um. There are a lot of issues. I mean, I feel like the talks that I hear at church often in LA and here often reference problematic things, and the person speaking is clearly very nuanced, right? They are not. They are not like marching in this exact line of of the current way that we understand history and doctrine, right, because it’s we’re from this changing things it changes a lot. It changes. More than you would expect it to change if it were a restoration of truth. So we’ve got some things that we’re working on. I regularly hear speakers in church navigating that. So I just personally don’t feel any discomfort at, at kind of being like, well, I don’t agree with that when someone says something I don’t agree with. Um,
[1:57:43] Michelle: That’s a really good thing for people in Utah to hear because that might be a little bit less common in our wards. So it’s really important because when you give a nuanced talk in in one of our wards, you might feel some level of concern and discomfort and is this gonna OK, am I gonna get in trouble? So to hear that that’s kind of almost the norm in the areas that you’ve been in, it’s good for us to recognize that our little world is not the world, even of Mormonism, even of the church.
[1:58:14] Gwendolyn Wyne: People are all over the place, like, all over the map. I mean, I don’t know. I just, I feel like it’s Whenever I hear sometimes about the Utah stuff where people are really gatekeeping, I’m like, how do you guys have the numbers for that? Like, we just don’t have enough people in other places to be able to say, you shouldn’t be here. It’s like, oh, you’re willing to show up and serve. Like, thank you. Yes. Yes. And you know, you’re not like pushing anything, um, uh, like evil. I mean, you’re just, you just are here to worship Christ. Like
[1:58:49] Michelle: you’re a good person, right.
[1:58:51] Gwendolyn Wyne: There’s so much space and or like you’re a bad person, but you don’t want to be bad, like, great, we won’t put you with the children, you know, like. There’s just There’s just a lot of space for people to have. Beliefs. I, I just, I don’t know, to me it’s not even a I’m grateful that I don’t hold to this like very rigid view. Um, I feel like it’s the, the fowler stages of faith. I feel like that’s, that’s a good place to get to. I try to teach my children to, to, um, like use their discernment and to listen to what’s being said and to make sure that it checks in with the spirit. That that they feel that that’s light and truth, and if they don’t, they don’t have to believe it. Like they can just leave that as something of like, I’m not sure, right? I mean, and that’s, I think that’s what we’ve been teaching all along because we used to call they put it on a shelf and now we just Now we seem to, I don’t know, we’re calling it something else, but I just, I think there’s so much space. I don’t think that there’s this rigidity that maybe there’s some cultural rigidity that that people might be feeling, but I, I’m not experiencing that. At all, I think most people that I’m around just don’t want to figure it out at church. They’re not like, hey, let’s understand polygamy and so it’s like, all right, you don’t wanna, don’t wanna delve in. That’s OK too. I, I’ve got a YouTube channel. I just put it on there. So
[2:00:20] Michelle: anyway, I just. Well, it’s not my people in my ward that are advocating against me. Like, like, I don’t, do you know what I mean? Like the board experience is very different. The people that are writing letters are not the people in my ward that worship with me. It, yeah, which is interesting. Yeah. So, so what is your, I guess. Uh, has this, um, journey, um, affected your testimony and like changed what it’s founded in, strengthen it in some ways, helped partnership, like how has it affected your testimony and what does your testimony look like now as opposed to before?
[2:00:57] Gwendolyn Wyne: Yeah. It has changed it a lot, a lot, um, because I feel like I used to have a testimony that I, I may have been following two masters, you know, and now I’m like, oh, men are not God. I follow God and I hope that that men, and I, and I don’t mean to be like the men, right? It’s just like leaders, women. I hope that the people who represent, yeah, who represent God in positions of authority are also following God, but if they’re not, I’m not gonna follow them. Like, I’m, I’m just gonna follow God. And so, um, it’s just, it’s changed my testimony significantly in that way. And I think that’s also why There is a fear that people have about digging into this because we have a very comfortable path, a comfortable, comfortable narrative where it’s like, oh, it’s the covenant path and you just do this, and then you will get to this place. And, and if you say just a minute, prophets can lead the church astray, and this was wrong, it really shakes you up and as you’ve talked about, it really forces A lot of the sand to start shifting, and you have to find the rock if you’re, if you’re going to still have a belief in God, you’ve got to find that rock. And, um, I know a lot of people have left to go into other Christianity, um, because they felt like the, the Christianity of Mormonism has been Um, you know, polygamy and all these things where they’re like, that’s not true Christianity and I’m, I’m so sorry that they felt they had to do that because I feel like the Book of Mormon is that true Christianity. We just, we just haven’t been willing to let it shine. And to really embrace what it teaches, um, so my,
[2:02:49] Michelle: my testimony is taken lightly, sorry, we’ve taken lightly the things that it says unfortunately. That’s right.
[2:02:56] Gwendolyn Wyne: So my testimony has changed a huge amount, but I feel much more love now for my fellow man, including for the leaders whose hearts I don’t know, like I don’t know them personally. And so I feel a lot of compassion for all of us because this is, we’re like a family, you know, my ward family, my church family, we’re a family, we’ve been handed these traditions. None of us started them. They’ve been given to us and they’ve been given to us in the strongest language possible. Nothing could be stronger than the testimonies that were like, have been borne down on us, right? And so for us to Ease out of that. I mean, it’s really hard. I feel a lot of compassion, I feel a lot of love, and I’ve come to see. How much genuine, like, parental kindness and love God has for us, that we’re allowed to grow here in this space in church. We’re allowed, we’re, we’re like given this gift of gathering together to grow. And God’s not gonna just come in and I, I think, and I said this in my video, I think that there’s a chance that this belief that the prophet can never lead the church astray or else he’ll be moved out of his place came out of Joseph and Hiram refusing to allow polygamy to the church and then and then. Being martyred and, and the leaders after were like, well, then probably you know, they could have told themselves that was God moving them out of their place because the time had come to indoctrinate polygamy and they weren’t willing to let it happen. And so God moved them out of their place and therefore, the prophet can never lead the church astray. I just have a lot of compassion for this, and it’s um It’s definitely a dilemma, but it’s like, once, once you kind of back up and you’re like we’re no different than any other people that have already been throughout history we need to repent and we need to repent of our idolatry. We need to stop looking to men and we need to look to God and let’s, let’s do that and let’s love each other and, and I’m not gonna solve the problem. Like I do not expect that any one person is going to be given all the wisdom and inspiration to fix the logistical issues within the church in, in trying to navigate getting polygamy out of the church if that is what we choose to do, which I hope we do. Um. And I’m OK with that, I think. I, I’m willing to be patient because I feel like I, God has given me so much personal inspiration and revelation that I’m just like, oh, OK, I don’t have to wait for the church to do anything. Like, I can, I can reach God myself. I, I don’t mean to say, right? Like Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith was able to go into that growth and reach God.
[2:05:50] Michelle: We don’t need permission to know God. Yes,
[2:05:52] Gwendolyn Wyne: that’s right. So that, so my testimony’s changed a lot, um, and I think that’s good.
[2:06:00] Michelle: OK, thank you for sharing that. And I do, I’ll just say like wrapping up, like, I think that it’s so beautiful that God doesn’t require us to be perfect, right? God does not even and if we insist that we’re perfect, that makes us incapable of repentance. I’ve said this before, God does Not require perfection from us. God just requires repentance, humility and repentance. And I think that that’s also what God requires of the church, not perfection, but a humility and a willingness to repent. And I think it’s beautiful and speaks to us having A Christ-like attitude if we can extend the same grace to the church and not expect or demand or require perfection from the church, but just hope for humility and repentance, right? That’s, I guess, the approach that I think that we can all bring to this is, is just hoping for the best for the greatest number of people and doing our best to where God wants us to be doing what God wants us to do. Trusting God to work it out all in a in glorious ways.
[2:07:02] Gwendolyn Wyne: That said, if we, if we were the first, we would be the first people that didn’t have to repent if that’s, if that story is true. I mean, every one of God’s people have had to make some pretty big changes and so, yeah, the people of. Like, praise God that we can change, that because of Christ, we can change, we can repent, and we don’t have to be held down and shackled to this.
[2:07:25] Michelle: Yes, we don’t need to continue dragging our errors, our errors along with us in fear that if we admit that we had errors that we will somehow not be the people of God. And we also, you know, I don’t, I, I think we also don’t need to be afraid that the fact that we did have errors means that we’re not the people of God, right? Like the story of the people of God throughout time, and I’m not saying the like capital T, the only people of God, but God’s people, the story of of being a people of God or that people of God throughout time is being people who are being called to repentance, right? That’s just what God does. So we’re, we’re perfectly on track. We’re right in line and The, the more people that are waking up, the more can enjoy this, the, the, just the deliciousness of this fruit. We can’t really know the love of God if we think that this is who God is and this is how God views us and this is what God says about us. That blocks us from really experiencing the love of God. So I hope, I hope that your video has the effect of just inviting thousands of more people into This, this glorious place of sampling this fruit. Just taste the fruit. Give it a try, plant those seeds in your heart, as Alma would say, and see what grows. And I, I, I hope that the work that so many of us are doing, we’ll just invite more people to do that. And I think you’re Entire work and this most recent video, I hope, just like I’m hoping for many things, that’s one thing I also pray that thousands of people will see it and that it will have a big effect.
[2:09:06] Gwendolyn Wyne: Thanks so much, Michelle. I really appreciate that. And thank you for all the work you’re doing. I know you know how much work you do. It is astonishing. It’s an incredible amount and it’s, I, I think it’s worth it for, for bringing about truth. And so I hope we can do it in love. That’s like my, my prayer is that we can speak truth and love, so. Thank you so much.
[2:09:27] Michelle: I love it. Beautiful. We’ll we’ll carry on, everybody. Thank you again, Gwendolyn for, yeah, thank you again, Gwendolyn for coming to talk to me and for the good work you’re doing. Thank you everyone for tuning in. If you haven’t already, go watch Gwendolyn’s video. If you haven’t already, go share Gwendolyn’s video, and we will see you next time. Thank you again to Gwendolyn for coming and talking to me even across the world, and um we can all pretend that we’re in the south of France with her. How beautiful was everything about that video. I love her spirit. I love the work she’s doing. I love As all of you, all of us engaged in this together, there are so many incredible things happening. I just feel like this is moving forward and it’s not going to be stopped. All of the people wanting to think that this is just a trend that I, I mean, I don’t know what to tell them at this point. It should be painfully obvious that this is not a trend, but this is a tidal wave that just keeps picking up more and more strength as the truth of God rolls forth. So another huge thank you to Gwendolyn, huge thank you to all of you, and I will see you next time.
