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John Whitmer Historical Association Conference, Sept. 12-15, 2024
Michelle to present on Friday, Sept. 13 – Register here
Red Brick Store Correspondence w/ Church Leaders/Employees
Remembering Emma Conference Day 1 (Michelle starts @ 3:03:25)
Transcript
[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon Polygamy, where we explore the scriptural, theological and historical evidence for Mormon plural marriage. We are at episode 132, which seems unbelievable. I’ve actually done several more than that. I’ve only released the Sunday ones as with episode numbers, so I don’t know how many videos we are up to, but It is a lot. And, um, I don’t see any end in sight. So I’m so glad that you have come along on this journey with me. I am excited for this episode, where instead of focusing on problems, I hope we can focus on solutions. Thank you so much for joining us as we take this deep dive into the murky waters of Mormon polygamy. I know that we had announced that for my 1302 episode, we would be showing my fairy god producer, my brilliant editor Karen, we would be showing the documentary that she’s been working on. But she has been working hard on it and she still needs some more time, which I completely understand. It is a huge Massive intense undertaking. I’m so excited to see what she will have for us. And, and it’s, I think it’s going to be great and it will be so wonderful to have just an encapsulation, a 2 hour introduction to people to help them understand what we have spent so much time learning and discussing. So. Keep going, Karen, it’s gonna be great. I’m excited for that. And in the meantime, I thought that maybe, um, it would be useful to give everybody an update on several things that are happening, both the good, the bad, and the ugly. And also, I wanted to, um, talk about something that has come up. Several times. There’s this question about, um, well, I mean, you know, many of us have faced this question, what does this mean for the church? What does this mean for our continued involvement with the church? What does this mean for the truthfulness of the church and all of these questions? And kind of expanding on that, is there hope for the church? Many people have strong opinions on that one way or the other, and, um, I want to share what I see as. The way forward that I, um, that I think is worth hoping for and praying for, and, and, you know, I want to share my perspective on this. And then I also, um, I have gone back and forth, but I want to share an experience that I had that really surprised me, um, that I Took a long time. I’m still trying to, um, think through and understand and understand what the Lord wants me to do with it. But it does seem to go along with this topic. It did seem to be given, um, while I was thinking about these topics. So I’m going to go ahead and share it. And, um, I just hope, well, I hope that those who feel inclined will stay tuned to, um, to hear this experience I’m going to share. And And, and, you know, it’s always a little bit, um, unsettling to share sacred experiences. So please, you know, recognize that this is just my experience, but at the same time, please, even those who just hate me and, and hate watch my videos, please at least just, um, treat. The things that I share with the reference and sacredness that they deserve if that’s all right for me to ask that. And the same for those who like my podcast but disagree with me on some of these topics. I’m just going to share the experience that I had. So first we’ll dive in and um give some updates. So, um, hard to know whether to start with the good or the bad. Um, I’ll go ahead and just quickly, there are some personal things to share. Um, I have been dealing with some health issues which are, um. Unpleasant, unsettling, concerning, and just not fun. Mainly, I’ve just been dealing with extreme fatigue. It’s been really hard to understand what’s going on. It’s been kind of, you know, I, I, I’ve, I’ve been struggling for a while, but for the last couple of weeks, it’s been very pronounced and, um, It’s very out of character for me how extreme it has been. And then it’s kind of gone along with, um, migraines and a lot of brain fog. I sit down and try to work and I just, I have days and days and sometimes weeks at a time where I just can’t work because I can’t, my brain, I can’t do what it needs to do. And then, you know, along with that, just, I think the depletion comes from depression and all of those things. So it’s just been a little bit hard. And, um, so anyway, I’m just showing you, telling you, um, just so you know. I guess also so you can kind of be a little bit understanding about my efforts in this episode, cause I am struggling. But, um, you know, and prayers are always welcome. I have gone in for blood work. We’re trying to get to the bottom of it, and I’ll keep people updated. But I will say every time I have prayed about Lord, do you want me to keep going with this? I keep having the answer yes, which, you know, this is the this is The main thing in my life that can go if something has to go, cause my kids and my husband can’t go. So, um, so anyway, um, I’m, I’m committed to keeping on going. I have many things already recorded and ready to release, and I’m really hoping that we get to the bottom of this. So that would be great. And, um, and of course, you know, I’m always open to, well, well, as I said, to prayers and any suggestions or ideas, uh, um, I’m doing, I’m doing the best I can. So, anyway, um, I also am going to just quickly share, um, uh, we, um We’ve had a tragedy in the family, um, a loss in my husband’s family that’s been really OK. Really a big loss and so um my um My husband’s uncle and good friend and um they’ve been. Good friends to me too. We I lost a child a little while after I lost my first child and um it’s been a hard. Hard thing to have in common, but I just love these people so much, and he has been missing for when this airs it will have been over a week. I’m recording this on Thursday, will air on Sunday, so, um. So please continue to um send your prayers to. Howard Stone’s family. We just love Howard and Cindy and those kids so much. And, um, so anyway, this has been a hard one. And then in the midst of that, I’m trying to, um, you know, keep on going with everything with what I’ve been dealing with and then with what my, um, husband’s family is going through. I went to take my kids to their first day of school yesterday, meet the teacher and, um, found out that the charter school had Not let me know that my children were not enrolled for this year. I guess I missed an email and never got a follow up. So, um, so, you know, as I had worked so hard with prayer to find the charter school that could assist me in my homeschooling as I was called to do this. Anyway, so, um, that was also, that’s a much smaller thing in comparison, but it was It’s more than I could deal with that day other than I am so thankful to have gotten to the place in my life where I know that everything God does is good and so we just said a prayer and um Drove to a different school where they are going now, and I am trusting that that is what um God had planned for them, so. So anyway, it’s been a crazy week, and then I did have an interview planned today, but, um, the, the, uh, Dawn and Jasmine Bradley, um, were going to come on and do an interview, and that’s what I was going to play for my 8302 actually, because of all of these other things going on, but they had to postpone. So here we are. OK, there’s way too much background information, just kind of letting you know. Um, so you can have some charity with me in this episode if need be. Now, I want to share the really, really exciting news, give some updates and talk. About solutions and the hope that, um, that there is in this topic. So first of all, um, I had gotten 3 different, um, phone calls or emails from people who had gone to to the tour in Navvo since the LDS Church had acquired all of those properties. And 3 different people let me know that when they went on the tour of the red brick store, the missionaries that have the script, the tour guides told them. That there was a mural, a newly painted mural on the wall, um, in preparation for Joseph Smith, um, giving the endowment to the first group of men. And, and since I had done work on that and showed that that was not a good case, I guess people just thought to call and let me know they’re actually saying that. And so I, um, anyway, the, the third person who called me, and it wasn’t, nobody was angry. They were just like, oh my gosh, oh wow, no, this can’t be helping. So. So anyway, I went ahead and, um, just, you know, I always try to like seek inspiration, but I just felt like, OK, I can, I can try and do something about this. So I went ahead and looked up online, who do I call about this and called the, I mean, they still have the, um, the community of Christ still has their website up for those. Locations, they haven’t taken it down yet, but that’s not who you call. There’s now a new LDS, um, website that you can call and I called there and the secretary was sweet and I kind of I said, I don’t know who I need to talk to, but this is why I’m calling, and she said, 00, and she actually gave me the phone number for the mission president. I think it’s the Illinois Historic Sites Mission. And she gave me the phone number for the mission president, which I was like, Is it OK if I call him? She said, Yes, yes. And so I went ahead and called him, and he ended up letting me know who it is that puts the script together. And, and I because I offered to, I said, I’ll go ahead and, you know, I’ll take the time to put together an email if that will be helpful. And so he let me know who I should send it to, and, and gave me the people to copy on it, and I sent it to him as well. So I did. I typed up, uh, you know, I, I stayed up really late that night cause that was the only time I did it, and, and wrote out this email and sent it, and, um, I, maybe I’ll attach the email, um, either I’ll I’ll put it on the website or I’ll, I, I’ll put a link to it, um, in the notes below for anyone who wants to read it, but I just gave them my research that I had done about the, um, the mural. That was the, like, I really think it’s useful to just do 11 little thing at a time where you can really nail it down and show. So I was just contacting them. About the mural and um and I sent this email to who they told me to send it to. I didn’t know if I would hear anything back, if anything would come of it. So I was actually thrilled when I got a response, and I did just very um kindly and carefully. Spell out the sources and why this claim is not true, why we, why we shouldn’t be saying that, um, there was a mural on the wall, because I think that, you know, we care about, um, we care about being accurate as far as we are able to. And so, um, so anyway, I, I gave them all of the sources, but the response was from the man who’s in charge of the scripts. He’s a full-time church employee. I think he’s the, let’s see, I wrote it down. He’s the church historic site’s manager. And so, um, and he’s one of the men, the mission president told me to include. And his response was, Thank you for sharing this great research with us, Sister Stone. We will take this up to the right people to make this change. So that made me all kinds of happy. Sorry, I am feeling a little bit emotional, so just ignore and listen if even if I get tear up a little bit. It just made me so happy to feel like Yes, that is a little thing, but it’s something. And I know, I acknowledged in the letter that it was hard, um, it was a hard change because what the missionaries are quoting in their script is, um, from, from saints. They’re, they’re, you know, it’s the same thing that’s written in saints. So I let them know that I know that changing saints would be probably. a bigger challenge than, you know, but, but at least in the um the mission tours could be giving accurate information. So the fact that they were willing to um acknowledge that the research was really good and that they were willing to um Say that they would make the change gave me so much hope about the impact that we actually can have even in small ways. So I wanted to give you that update because to me it was so hopeful and so joyful. And, and then I also, I guess, if anyone else goes, um, through the The tour at Navu, if anyone is in the area of Nauvoo, please go through the tour of the red brick store, and I would love to know to get updates on that. I’m sure it will take a little bit of time, but I hope not too much because I think just like Giving the notification of one historic site to scratch out one little sentence shouldn’t be too hard. So I hope that can happen fast. I understand if it takes longer to change states, but maybe there will be a trickle up effect and at some point that will be changed as well. But, um, we can’t give up hope that, um, The people at church headquarters, the employees and the leadership, I think that so many of them do want to, I think they do care about the truth, and they do want to share truthful messages and that they are willing to hopefully change them when it’s brought to their brought to their notice. So we’ll see what happens with this one. But there’s the first happy update and solution, right? We can just be proactive and very kindly and humbly share information with those who, um, might want to know that some of their information isn’t quite correct. So then I have another update to give that I’m, um, even more excited about. So, um, some of you will know. Rick Bennett from Gospel Tangents. He has a YouTube channel. And, and he and I became friends quite a little, quite a long time ago. He, um, we’re actually pretty good friends, although we tease each other a lot because he could not agree with me. He could not disagree with me more on this topic. And there are, you know, I couldn’t disagree with him more on this topic and others. And so, uh, Um, so we’ve, we, we’ve had a fun relationship, but he, um, cause we can both, you know, tease each other. And he has been sort of challenging me to, well, then get published. Well, then present at a historical conference. Well, you know, he said he won’t have me on his, um, channel unless I get published because he’s, he’s not gonna get into conspiracy theories. And, you know, so. So he kind of, I think he was both sincere and also like, yeah, go ahead, come on, get published. And also like, if you want to be taken seriously, get published. And so it was, it, you know, so I, I, I, I think that’s what brought this all to my radar. So I was like, Fine, fine, I will. And, um, and he let me know. So there’s MHA is the Mormon History Association. And um I love that they haven’t changed. It’s, it’s run by the LDS Church and they’re still called MHA, which I’m very glad of instead of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints History Association. It’s the Mormon History Association. And so, um, and then there’s JWHA, which is the John Whitmer Historical Association. And that’s sort of the um the parallel organization that’s run by the community of Christ, headed up by the community of Christ. So these are the two big history associations. I’m, I’m doing my best job if if any historians, um, want to clarify anything I’m saying if I’m getting. Anything wrong, please feel free. But anyway, so, um, so MAJ had their conference, um, uh, uh, maybe last month in Cleveland. I actually got several phone calls from people letting me know things that one of our favorite historians has said about, um, getting me excommunicated so that was fun, but. Huh. But JWHA is actually being held in Saint George this year in Utah, and it’s the first time that it’s been west of, I can’t remember if it’s the Mississippi River or the Missouri River, one or the other. It’s the first time that it has been in the West, um, ever because it’s the community of Christ, right? And so, Um, so Rick was like, that’ll be, it’ll be a great one up like, like, and, and he actually has been so encourage he might maybe started out teasing me, maybe not, I don’t know. But he actually has been really encouraging and saying, you like, like, apply to speak, you know, like, submit, submit a present, uh, proposal to speak. And so actually, I did, um, start thinking about that and praying about it, and it was about the time period that I started, um, working, doing interviews with Dawn Bradley and Cheryl Bruno. And as I Was pretty but I just had this thought of like we’re trying to show a better way to engage Don and Cheryl. I’ve appreciated them so much because while they disagree with me, they’re at least trying to show historians a better way to engage right? Let’s talk about the topics and get to the bottom of it rather than um. Just dismissing and demeaning and mocking people, and I really appreciate that. Still with both of them, we need to get more into the topics. We have a lot more um conversations off air, like I, I talked to, especially Cheryl quite a bit um about sources, so. More and more information will be coming out. But anyway, I reached out to both of them. I, I, you know, I just felt strongly inspired on this and reached out to both of them. I was like, what would you guys think of submitting together to do a panel? Cause I guess they like to put 3 talks together usually. And, um, and, and they both were totally on board. And I thought that way we can demonstrate, like, look, we can. Present together, we chose a topic we were going to center sort of on John Bennett, and um we all worked on our parts our parts of the proposal, the part I submitted was it was really hard to choose which topic, but the part I submitted was to talk about um. Um, the development of contraception and birth control and abortion in America. So what would have been available in 1840s Nu, right? That was what I chose because we were kind of centering it like I said, on John Bennett and that plays into the allegations that John Bennett was performing abortions for Joseph Smith. So, and then, um, Dan and Cheryl both put together fantastic presentations and we sent it in. And Don told me himself that he felt like it was one of the best, um, proposals he had ever been a part of. He, he felt like it was really good. He was like, of course we can’t know for sure what’s going to happen, but I would be very surprised if um, if we’re not so, you know, if, if we’re not invited to present. So I was really excited about it. So I was devastated when we got turned down. It was actually really devastating because so many reasons. One, it had been such strong inspiration to do it, and, you know, and then we had worked so hard together and I had bothered them to do it with me. I, I mean, I think they probably would have said in submissions anyway, but, um, you know, and then it was also just like. This attempt to speak to historians on their on their terms, right? And their home court, and, and like, OK, fine, I will come and meet you where you are. So it was just devastating. I found out later on, at least what I have been told by a couple of different sources, is that The selection process was complicated this year for JWHA because it’s the community of Christ, and there were already some hard feelings because of the sale of the properties and how that information was released and then on top of that, the conference being held in Utah, it was just a bad year for it to be held in Utah for the first time when that had already all happened so I guess that there was, um, a lot of, I, I don’t know exactly the workings, but the impression I got was that. Um, mainly community of Christ, people selected the historians and not as many LDS historians were selected is my understanding. And, um, and I should say, so these historical conferences, they both, both MHA and JWHA put out their, um, I don’t know their magazines right there where where they publish their article, people publish articles in them, and that’s kind of a prestigious thing to do for historians. And then this is also where all the historians get together and like rub shoulders and. It’s kind of the cool kid historian club. It’s my understanding of it. And it’s like a feather of your in your cap when you present at it, right? So that’s why Rick was like, if you want to be taken seriously, go present at a historical conference. So, um, so anyway, that’s the story behind that. So it it was at least, OK, that’s why it happened, but it still felt like just such a dead end. And now what? and, uh, uh, uh, you know. So I, and, and then, you know, I, I just, it just felt yucky, really yucky for, you know, and I was like, fine, I’ll just keep doing my thing and not worry about it. So last week I was, um, driving downtown, so two female historians had contacted me and asked me to go to lunch with them, which was awesome. It was so fun to, you know, like, I don’t know. It’s, it’s fun for a mom to step into this domain, right? And so it’s an awesome lunch. But on the way down there, I had to stop and get gas and checked my email while while I was getting gas. And I had an email from the, um, historian who had sent me the rejection email for JWHA. She, and in the rejection, she had told me, we, I was so sad because I really wanted to see your presentation on that topic. And I, you know, I was, I was like, I wonder if she just says that to everyone to make me feel better, you know? And so, but she sent me an email and it said that they had, had an opening for Friday morning during the conference and wondered if, and, and she said, we wanted to include your presentation. I wondered if you would. They’ll be willing and able to present. So it was like, I don’t know, it’s hard to explain the feeling of elation that felt like, uh, it brought so many things together. First of all, that the Lord had inspired me to do it, and now it came together. And I kind of, I had said to both Dawn and Cheryl several times, like, thank you for letting me ride your coattails and, you know, submit with Huh, so that it’s more likely to get accepted. And, and it was like on the one hand, it was kind of awkward because, um, it was just mine and when we had it submitted as a group. But it also was like, oh, like I did it on my own. You know, that was really encouraging. And actually, Dawn and Cheryl have both been, of course, phenomenal and so supportive and just awesome. And they both agreed to, um, read my paper. Before I present it, you know, like, give me feedback so I can take all the hard feedback, hopefully before in there. But anyway, I’m terribly, terribly excited about this because it is the historical conference where all of both the Mormon historians and the community of Christ historians and the never Mormon historians and the non-Mormon or ex post-Mormon historians. It’s where they all get together and Do their cool historian club thing. And so I’m really, really excited to, um, be able to go share this, I think, extremely solid information on their turf. And I, I am so hopeful that if I can do an adequate job, that it will, it will help move things forward and just, you know, these small incremental ways, but I really I want our research to be taken more seriously. So I’m, I’m really, really excited about that. So it’s going to be held September 12th through 15th in St. George, Utah. As I said, I will, I will be presenting the morning of the 13th on Friday. I’m not sure which time slot yet, but, um, I will, I will keep updates. And I, if anybody is able To attend, I think it would be amazing to have a showing there, a good showing. It’s, it’s an expensive conference. I know just the one day ticket is $75 and I think that the entire time might be $200. I’m not sure to come for all four days. So I know it’s, um, a big ask, but if anybody is able to attend, I just think it would be. Phenomenal in so many ways. First of all, I would love to meet people to go to lunch, right? And I think that would be a lot of fun. We can have anyone that comes, we could go to lunch on Friday after the presentation and then I also think Um, I would also, you know, selfishly love to have some support, supportive voices there. But also, I think being able to show these historians how much interest there is in this topic. How, you know, I, I don’t, I, I don’t think most people know about JWHA or MHA or go to these conferences, right? I mean, most just like members of the church. And so if we have a big Showing, I think it would be phenomenal. So if anybody is able to do that, um, please consider it. Please pray about it. That’s what I always do. Just like, OK, Lord, if it’s, if this is what I’m supposed to do, please make it possible. You know, and I, and I think that would just be phenomenal. Um, maybe we could also set up a thing if there are people who are able to afford a ticket, but maybe who can’t go themselves, maybe they could. Um, hook up with someone who could go but couldn’t afford a ticket, or if there’s someone who could fund other people to go, I would just love it more than I can tell you if we had a big showing there for at least this Friday morning at this conference, for this one day at this conference, I think it would be amazing. And so the link will be in the descriptions below for anybody who wants to come and And please consider if that’s something you could do. So now we’ll go on to the intended topic for this episode, which is the question, is there hope for the church? Is there a way forward? And I will add, because it has been Spread about so much. Do I think that we should attend the temples? And I’ve already made those points very clear many times, but I want to dedicate this, the rest of this episode to doing my best to answering those questions. I have to say I had intended this episode to be the question of loyal dissent and a way forward. I wanted to talk about whether there’s room for loyal. Sent to the church, but that actually was such a big topic all on its own, that I’ve separated that out to be its own episode. So I won’t address very much about that here about people both on both sides, people who say, if you don’t believe that polygamy was ever of God, you cannot be a member of the church, right? They, you need to be kicked out of the church if you say that a lot. Or on the other side, people, uh, who themselves don’t believe that, um, polygamy was ever of God and say, therefore we can’t stay in the church and nobody can in good conscience stay in the church. I really, really disagree with that on both sides, and I will share my reasons in my next episode about loyal dissent, but I do want to really quickly. Just because we’re talking about, um, delicate issues that affect people after having gone to that, um, camp out that I went to and hearing story after story after painful, tearful story of people being kicked out of the church, being excommunicated, simply for thought crimes, many of them simply for reading a book or, uh, it was, it was brutal to hear. And, um, so I just want to, um, acknowledge that and address that. Painful things have happened to many people. And it’s really hard. How do I, how do I address this? So much when you see something like that happen, you want to stand in solidarity with those people and say that was wrong, and I’m not going to be a member of an organization that did that to you. And, you know, I just, I just want to acknowledge how real. That pain is and how wrong I think that is. I wish we would stop excommunicating people for to see, which really means for like thought crime, right? You believe you read the wrong book, you said the wrong thing to the wrong person. Therefore, you and your spouse that have to be kicked out of the church. I mean, again and again and again, I I hope our local leaders can just start doing better because It is tragic what has happened to so many good people and good families. With all of the effort that we make to spread the gospel, to bring people into the church, we send our children on missions. We go on missions. We, and then at the same time, we’re like, sorry, you think the wrong thing, so you’re out, you’re out. And what does that do to a person’s entire family? It is so hard on, um, On our kids, our teenagers, our children, our grandchildren are like, like the, the, we talk about this all the time. How many times have we had general conference talks or other lessons at church about the echoes of if someone leaves, leaves the church, the ripple effects of that. When someone is violently thrust out of the church, the ripple effects of that are even worse. Please, can we stop doing this? Let’s just trust. Truth to win out. Let’s trust God in what he actually says, that we have the Spirit of God, that we have the gift of discernment, that we have the everything we need to be able to tell truth from error. We don’t need to do this boundary keeping. Let’s, let’s say the excommunication for people who are actually. The violent criminals or the financial criminals, the, the people that are like using their membership in the church to do active harm to people. Can we please stop calling for excommunication from people who are learning things from the scriptures and from the Lord that other people are uncomfortable with? As I have told, like, I’ve said this so many times, the only thing The thing that excommunicating someone accomplishes is, well, the only thing that excommunicating me would accomplish is to gratify the pride of the worst kinds of members, to make the most self-righteous people be able to claim victory without having to actually engage, right? It would allow Brian Hailes to say, see, I was right all along. And now it’s proven because she’s been excommunicated. That’s all I would do. No, it would not prove that he’s right. And it would not do anything to minister to people who are struggling and people who are trying to find truth. All it does is say, there’s no room for anyone in this church who doesn’t believe this way. And maybe all of the people who believe that way think that’s what they want, but I promise, that is not what you want. You are going to have children who are going to have to grapple with these questions. You are going to have grandchildren, you are going to have spouse. you, these things are not going away. I felt like it was so profound when I read, and I know this was the topic I wasn’t going to address here. I’ll save most of it for for next time. But people are learning the truth of this. It is coming down everywhere from, it is distilling down from the heavens, right? And it just sent me right to section 121. I’m gonna start reading at verse 33. How long can rolling waters remain impure? This, I guess I’m started to ask the question, what will you accomplish? Those of you calling for my excommunication, what do you think it will accomplish? Will it, will it stop this truth from coming forward? Will it stop people from learning the truth about polygamy and the truth about Joseph Smith? Will it stop people from coming to the knowledge that Joseph Smith wasn’t a liar and didn’t betray his wife? What power shall stay the heavens as Might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri River in its decreed course, or to turn it upstream as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the latter-day saints. Behold, there are many calls, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen? Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world and aspire to the honors of men that they do not learn this one lesson, that the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven. And that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness. I am so thankful to currently have leaders who understand these concepts and principles, and I’m disgusted by all of the people out there trying to get them to abuse their authority in the ways that they think that they should, the people writing the letters or that they think they should. It’s, it’s not good. That they may be conferred on us, the powers of heaven. It is true, but when we undertake to cover our sins, to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men in any degree of unrighteousness, like telling them, you’re not allowed to speak on this topic, no power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion. Use persuasion. That’s what I’m doing. Engage with persuasion by long suffering. Yeah, it’s hard. It takes a lot of work. Look at how long I’ve been working on this, trying to get more and more people to look at the evidence. It takes a lot of effort, and we have to be very patient and continue to love people as they find their way through. Whatever topics they’re working on. Can we have, can we, as, like, as local church leaders, can you please have long suffering for the members of your, um, of your wards and your stakes who are trying to figure things out? Why, why did you kick so many people out of the church? Can we stop doing that? And, um, I want to thank my leaders. They My, um, state president always appreciates that when I say that, yes, he is troubled, he is, um, unsettled about what I’m doing. He’s trying to figure it out. He’s trying to make lots of different people happy, you know, but he is doing his best to, um, to follow the principles that are taught, and And I appreciate, I, I, I wish he weren’t listening to the, to the ridiculous lying voices writing into him, but I do appreciate how seriously he is taking it. Long suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned, by kindness and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy and without guile. That is what we re that the are our own scriptures given to us by the mouth of our prophet, Joseph Smith, who told the truth, who revealed things from the Lord. I feel so much power from the Lord in these verses. Why do we ignore everything that Joseph Smith said? We ignore everything he told us about himself, about the gospel, about marriage, about his own marriage. And we tend to ignore these verses. I hope that we will stop doing that. So again, OK, all of my side tracks will get to the topic. But I also, um, I do want to acknowledge that there have been people who have suffered and I a horrible excommunication from the church, and I’m so sorry, and I’m mourn with you and I will never throw you under the bus or stop standing with you. And I feel called to be in the church. I love the church. I There are things that are really hard about the church, but I love the church so much and that’s part of what I want to talk about. As, as we talked about this, because I think the church is worth staying in. I think it’s worth doing all we can prayerfully to, to hope for the best, hope and pray for the best for our church that we love. And I know, I also want to quickly address those who have chosen to step away. I am never going to tell anybody what they have to do. Um, I, I do sometimes, I do feel some concern that sometimes people feel um like that’s a necessity or people make those choices sometimes a little more lightly, like, um, don’t recognize, as I spoke about the long-term ripple effects for their children and their grandchildren for Like this world has gone absolutely crazy. It’s really hard to find a place to raise our children in community and morality and teaching just the basic Christian virtues. And I happen to believe that the Mormon Church does, I’m sorry, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does it, um, So beautifully well in so many ways. And so I always am encouraging anybody who possibly can to please pray very seriously before leaving the church. Please, anybody who possibly can stay in the church, to please strongly consider doing that. I know it can be really uncomfortable, but I will say I have been in this space for approaching 2 decades that I have been struggling. In my, um, navigating the church, and I’ve gone through all of the phases of, um, all kinds, but I am so thankful that the Lord has always told me to stay and enabled me to stay, even at the darkest, most difficult times. And that my heart in so many ways has been healed, where I have come to have so much charity for the church. And I think that’s something we should Strive to develop. It’s really easy. It’s kind of, I think, I think of it kind of like um as we mature as human beings, right? And we think when we’re young, we think our parents can do nothing wrong, then we become teenagers and recognize they have flaws and oh my gosh, and then we go to our Early, um, young adulthood, and, and our parents can do no right. All we can see are the flaws. And sometimes it takes getting into our 30s or 40s where when we’re parents ourselves where we recognize how much there was that was so wonderful about our parents, right? And I think that same process tends to happen within the church. We, we, we kind of think the church is perfect, the prophet can never lead us astray. Everything that is printed in a manual is God’s God’s word, God’s truth, right? And then We go through those same stages. So anyone who is in that stage of only being able to see the bad in the church, um, I would just like, hope that I, I get it. I’ve been there. I promise, you know, but maybe don’t make the final decision in that stage. Recognize that it is part of the stages. It, it is one of the stages, at least, that I, as I see them and as I’ve experienced. If you are called to go somewhere else, I’m not going to tell anybody what they should do. But I think there is so much goodness and beauty in this church. There are such incredible people in this church, and I have so much love and charity for the church, and I am thankful that I have stayed long enough to be able to look for and focus on the positive. I’m not denying or ignoring the negative. I’m not claiming it’s not there, but, um, I am thankful to have come to a place to have genuine charity for the church. And I, and that’s something that I hope that more people can have. Uh, I, I think also the church loses out when we as a church body, when we excommunicate people and we say, Ha, I have no need to be a foot, I have no need to be. I, I like, we, uh, we lose out. And then also when, when the people who are becoming spiritually awakened in new ways, when they leave, we lose out. We miss those people. We miss the insights that That um we can all gain together and so that’s what I’m hoping is that we can learn as a church body to have more love for one another that we can all have um I guess, I guess when I say I have charity for the church, the church is the members, right? So I’m trying to have. Um, the charity for the individual members and for the body of members, for the body of Christ that the church is ideally striving to be. I want to go forward now and share what I see as a way forward. What I, some, something that I hope for. It’s always helpful for me to have something to pray for. I, I learned that lesson, um, profoundly when I was expecting my 13th and learned that we wouldn’t keep her in my Friend, um, who sat with me. I love you, Kara. And, um, and said, Can we have a fast? Can we? And I knew that that was not the answer for her to be healed. And so she said, What can we pray for? And when I prayed to the Lord, I had the answer of what I could and should pray for. So I love having something that I can pray for because all of a sudden, I know I am praying for the will of God, and I can exert all of my faith, and I can pray in complete faith of, of knowing that it’s possible, right? And that it’s what the Lord wants me to pray for. So that’s what I’m sharing. It’s what I think we can pray for. I believe to my core that the church can, and I think eventually will at some point, completely let go of polygamy. I want to share, this is gonna be, I, I had intended to go through and try to make this. Um, a little bit better thought out, but these ideas have been percolating for several months. But as I see it, the church has several times done things that that were repentant, has repented several different times in ways that were way, way more challenging than this would be. So let’s look back. I, um, in 1890, when Wilfred Woodruff first took down the endowment. House and disavowed polygamy. I see that as repentance. Yes, it was enforced repentance. Yes, it was only partial repentance. That’s sometimes it’s how it happens. The Book of Mormon talks about that, right? Like, more blessed are those who are not compelled to be humble, but even those who are compelled to be humble still get the benefit of being humble, of being forced to repent. It’s still repentance. And so, um, when they took down the endowment house and they dis avowed polygamy. They said they were going to discontinue it. The numbers of polygamy dropped. They plummeted the numbers of polygamous marriages in the church. It was no longer preached. It was no longer practiced openly, just people were sent to Mexico or Canada, right? And then again, there was a repeat in 1906, it went down even more to our to our there were barely any, um, plural marriages happening with the official permission of the church. What I, what I think is important to recognize there is what that cost the church, right? We had the leaders just before that saying if the church ever goes away from these principles, if they, if the church ever stops polygamy, you will know that it is an apostasy. I was going to grab the quotes. I actually have them here. Maybe I’ll type them up in a blog post. I just know that I won’t last long enough to read all of the quotes. But, but they were taught explicitly that the Church can never stop polygamy. What God has revealed has to continue, right? But Wilfred Woodruff, rather than, I think that John Taylor would have let the church be destroyed around him rather than let go of polygamy. But Wilfred Woodruff was willing to do that hard thing, to let go of polygamy and face the, um, The confusion of that, that, that ensued, right? But look what happened as a result. Look at how the church went from being completely, um, prosecuted by the government, but I don’t know if I should say persecuted or prosecuted. They were breaking the laws, right? And they, they had, um, all of the temples being taken, all of the possessions being taken, all of the priests had put in prison. Right? And the Lord gave Wilfred Woodruff the revelation that if you don’t stop this, it’s going to be completely destroyed. And he was willing to listen to that. I, I believe that true revelation, and he repented. And as a result, the church wasn’t destroyed. Those curses were removed that the church had been operating under, and the church went on to um To do much, much better than it had done before, right? To be able to grow the missionary force, to be able to publish and print the Book of Mormon and do the mission that the Lord had for it to, to do. I think that was profound. It was so much harder for the saints then to give up polygamy than it would be for us to now. They were actively Preaching polygamy and living at many, many polygamous families, it did cause a lot of hardship. Like those were hard things for so many members of the church to figure out and to work through, yet they were willing to do it. And I see that the Lord blessed the church as a result. They no longer were operating under those same curses that Jacob2 warns us of that will follow those who don’t follow the commandments of God, but who practice polygamy on this land, right? And so then we can go forward, and the next example that I want to bring up is um 1978. Again, we had an impossible problem, and This is where we, um, undid the priesthood ban, right? How many leaders, again, all the way back to Brigham Young had taught that this is how it’s going to be. Again, I got the quotes, I’ll have to, I’ll have to make some supplemental material. The um leaders teaching all of these principles that the church can never go away from them, or it will be under condemnation. It will be an apostasy, right? So they, and, and by then it had been taught by so many different leaders. It had been published in Mormon doctrine and president after president after president had reaffirmed this terrible teaching of divine racism that people of African descent were inferior spiritually, eternally from the pre-existence and would never have. The blessings of the temple or the priesthood until the end of the world, until every white person had already had the chance, these despicably awful teachings. Again. And so in 1978, the challenge for President Kimble to undo that, to say no. We are not going to be stuck by the errors of the past. We are, you know, and again, it was enforced repentance. The church was coming under all kinds of scrutiny. They were facing. Um, legal problems and huge PR problems everywhere because it was such an awful, awful policy that we let ourselves be stuck in because of the, these bad ideas, right? That we can’t change a bad policy from the past. We somehow keep having to learn that lesson. And I, I wanna say that again, just like it was so hard to change the policy and 8. 1890 and 1906. It was again, so hard to change in 1978 because what does that mean? I mean, Bruce Aonki had to like full on eat crow, right? See, we were wrong. We were speaking with less light and knowledge than we now have. He had, I, I mean, he himself, his own words were disavowed, let alone the words of all of the previous prophets. Yet, we did that. We did that. thing, and it did not hurt us. I would say the exact opposite. Keeping ever having that policy is what hurt us, and keeping it as long as we did is what hurt us. Changing it, while it was so unthinkably difficult, how can we change what past prophets have said? We did it. And the church went on from there to thrive, right? Like, just like in the Um, in the, throughout the 1900s, we were no longer hobbled by the actual practice of polygamy and the actual teaching of polygamy, and the church was unable to go on like it had not done before. And the same thing happened. We were no longer hobbled by this horrible racist policy. It had done its damage, for sure. But look at the growth of the church in the ensuing decades, right? The 80s and the 90s and the early 2000s. Like, it seems that even when repentance is partial and is enforced, it still is met with outpourings of from the Lord of the church being enabled to grow, to carry on its mission, to spread the Book of Mormon, to do. To, to do the temple work, to do what we claim is our mission, our threefold mission to do, right? We can do that better when we’re not hobbled by false traditions of the past. So what I see is that the church changing this now, reevaluating section 132. And finally fully and completely disavowing and letting go of polygamy, not keeping it in our back pocket, not keeping it in our eternal repertoire, right? Our, our ideas of what will be in the next life if we actually just let it go. What could we expect to happen based on the precedents that we have already seen when we have done that in the past, when we have repented? It would be so much easier to let go of polygamy today. We’re not actively living it. We’re not actively teaching it. We don’t actively read the scriptures that are about it, section 132, right? And it would be so, like, like, it, it would take off so much pressure, and here we are now, the church in this time when we are facing so much terrible PR right? We have the Mormon moment and It hasn’t been very good since then. I don’t even know that that was actually very good, but we look at the flood of people that have left the church and the bad press that the church continues to get. And, and the, just the ratcheting up of difficult issues in the church that we are dealing with. There are a lot of difficult issues, but I think that This is one area where if we want to experience the outpourings of the Lord to help this church go forward in positive ways, this is something we could consider doing. And I think that it would be borne out with tremendous blessings for the church to be enabled to continue. To fulfill its mission. I, I am not claiming that this is the only issue in the church, the only problem in the church. It’s, but it is one of them, and it should matter greatly because terrible things have been said about women. And they’ve been allowed to stand, and terrible things are still being said about women in our canonized scripture. And so a couple of things I want to address for people who think, no, there’s no way we could change scripture. Are you crazy? We already have, right? How many changes have been made to the scriptures over the years? And let’s again address the fact that in Joseph Smith’s publications, both of his publications of the Doctrine and Covenants, there was no Section 132. There was the statement on Marriage, Section 101 in 1835, Section 109 in 1844. Those were the canonized scriptures, scriptures accepted unanimously by by common consent, right? Voted on by every quorum in the church, as exactly as the church following the exact pattern that the church establishes in its own operating manual in the doctrine and covenants. Those were our canonized scriptures. They were changed in 1876 without the common consent of the people. With Out any kind of, um, presentation. I, I mean, I mean, it, it didn’t follow any of the operations of how the church is supposed to operate, how the church is supposed to do this. It was just changed and it wasn’t even sustained until the next printing in 1880. That was the first time that they even held up the scriptures for a sustaining vote. It was not the common consent of the people. The statement on marriage, Section 101 itself received the confirmed. vote of the people. That can’t be done except by the confirming vote of the people, right? So it would actually be, again, according, like perfectly in line to say, we, uh, you know, we have recognized that there are some problems with Section 132, how it was added, and we are going to take it back to the Lord for further light and knowledge. I think that is a beautiful thing to consider. As we’ve already said, there’s a ton of evidence that Joseph Smith taught. Eternal marriage and had a revelation on it, and that at least part of that is included in section 132. So all of this could work out perfectly, and is absolutely a possibility of what the church can do going forward, and I think it would be A beautiful, it’s a beautiful thing for me to be able to hope and pray for that I think would be met with tremendous blessings. I honestly don’t see any reason why it wouldn’t only be completely possible, but also incredibly positive for the church to do this, for the church to officially step away the last step from polygamy, disavow polygamy. As I’ve said so many times, we have already Completely condemn disavowed, stopped, condemned, rejected every single other doctrinal innovation from Brigham Young. All of them. That is what has happened. I, as I said, I have extensive quotes about Adam God doctrine and, um, divine racism. Blood atonement, every single one of those was not only taught over the pulpit in the name of God. I won’t read the quotes here, but was also included. In the temple, every single one of those false doctrines. Um, Brigham Young taught extensively Adam God doctrine and said that anyone who didn’t believe it would be damned. And that was the lecture at the veil, at the, um, original temples. There was an extensive lengthy lecture at the veil that was on the Adam God doctrine. That’s interesting to know, right? So not only was it taught by a president of the church, but it was included at the most, uh, important sacred. Part of the temple, and yet we disavowed it, and we rejected it, and we have condemned it. That’s something to know, right? We have the president. Um, blood Atonement. Oh my gosh, I again got some quotes that hard, dark stuff that should never have been taught, but was, and again, was included in the temple. We had the oaths of vengeance in the original temple that were not good. And then we also had quite troubling, um, Penalties, right? Like bloody penalties, and those have been discontinued in the temple, which I think is a good thing. I take that as a step in the right direction based on what the Book of Mormon teaches us. I see that as repentance. And, and it hasn’t harmed us as a church to do that. It has blessed us, right? The, um, those, those. Teachings have also been disavowed. They have not been repeated or continued, and I don’t think our leaders would be in favor of them today. And then same thing as I said, we had the divine racism stantiated in the temple. People of African descent were not welcome to come into the temples, which was terrible, right? But that has been discontinued. We have repented of that. We haven’t fully Owned it like we should have. We haven’t fully undone it, but still, we have repented and I love seeing, even in Utah, I love seeing people of African descent on the stand at church in their callings and in the temple. It’s not fixed, but it’s better. And I’m so thankful that we have repented rather than continuing on with bad doctrines. Every single one of those doctrines. was included in our temples, was taught over the pulpit by our leaders, which is counted as scripture. We added a false scripture in 1876 to the Doctrine of Covenants, a scripture that demeans women that devastates marriage. It turns the hearts of the spouses apart from each other when everything else that Joseph Smith taught turns the hearts of the spouses toward each other, just as God established it, just as God wanted it to be. Though it is not serving us as a people to have section 132 continue in our scriptures in its current state. Also, please remember, like I, as I already said, Joseph did teach um eternal marriage and the portions of 132, I’ve said this so many times as well, but the portions of 132 that are about eternal marriage, um, is that what 14 to 21, someone can correct. me on that. But it’s, it’s in that area, they are exclusively inescapably monogamous. It can only be done with one man and one wife. So we could have true teachings of eternal marriage as God established it in our scriptures, and it would serve us so well. It would bless us as a people. And I think another step in that repentant direction. would have God pour out blessings onto this church to enable it to continue to fulfill its purpose for which it was preserved. Brigham Young was a force of nature, right? He, he was something else. I personally do not think that Brigham Young had the spiritual gift of bringing forth doctrine. I think The doctrines that Brigham taught, espoused, and introduced into the church have not been good. And yes, I, I, I’ve been told by people that we should just let that we, we shouldn’t dig up the past. We shouldn’t talk about those things. They don’t do any good. Well, do you know what? Too late. Those things have been dug up from the beginning. Like our scriptures, our own scriptures teach us that all things will be revealed, right? All things will be revealed from the rooftops and shouted from the rooftops and revealed from both heaven and earth, and you can’t keep things hidden. That’s not, that’s not. Ever going to work. And look at what that trying to keep them hidden has not served us well. The it would have been so much better if these bad doctrines were never taught. If they were never brought into the church. It would have been a wonderful thing. The fact is, they were. And we have to deal with that, right? So the question is, what’s the best thing to do? Because there were these bad doctrines, these falsehoods, these false doctrines taught in the church over the pulpit by the presidents, sometimes presidents plural of the church with. that we would be damned if we didn’t believe them, right? That’s just the fact. So what do we do with that? What’s the best thing to do? Well, I think the second worst choice is to try to lie about it. People don’t like being feeling lied to, and that’s why we have seen so much. Falling away from the church. One of the big reasons, right? That it’s not a good direction to go, to try to say, no, don’t talk about it. Keep it hidden. It’s not going to serve us well. God does not dwell in dishonesty, that if we want the spirit of the Lord, we have to be a church that values truth, right above. Everything else we have to care about the truth. That’s what Joseph Smith did. That’s why he started the church. He cared about truth, right? And so, so that is the second worst choice, I think, is to just try to keep it all hidden, try to pretend it never happened. Don’t let people talk about it or learn about it. That’s not going to work. It’s just not going to work and it’s not truthful. The choice that’s even worse than that, the worst, worst choice is refusing to have ever been wrong. So to keep the bad doctrines attached to us, to keep espousing them because we can’t admit we were ever wrong. That’s the worst choice possible. That’s what we did until 1978 on racism. I’m so glad we let it go. We need to go further. We have at least condemned it now officially, right? But that is what we can do with polygamy. And in fact, we have already done it. Many of you will remember that the president of the church on the biggest worldwide platforms he could find, he did this on many different media outlets. He fully disavowed, condemned, denied polygamy, and declared that it was not doctrinal.
[59:39] Gordon B. Hinckley: In 1890, that practice was discontinued. The president of the church, the man who occupied the position which I occupied today. Went before the people said he had. I was prayed about it, worked on it. Uh, and had received the Lord a revelation that the time to stop was just to discontinue it. Then that’s 118 years ago. It’s behind us,
[1:00:05] Larry King: but when the word is mentioned, when you hear the word, you think Mormon, right?
[1:00:09] Gordon B. Hinckley: I mean you knew mistakenly they have no connection with us whatever. They’re not belong. They don’t belong to the church. There are actually no Mormon fundamentalists.
[1:00:19] Larry King: Are you surprised that there’s apparently a lot of polygamy in Utah?
[1:00:24] Gordon B. Hinckley: Well, I’ve seen the thing grow somewhat. I don’t know how large it is. I don’t know how pervasive it is. People mistakenly assume that this church has something to do with that. It has nothing whatever to do with it. It has had nothing to do with it for a very long time. It’s outside the realm of our responsibility. These people are not members any man or woman who becomes involved in it is excommunicated from the church. As far as I’m concerned, I have nothing to do with it. Uh, it belongs to the civil officers of the state. You condemn it. I condemn it, yes, as a practice because I think it is not doctrinal. It is not legal, and this church takes the position that we will abide by the law.
[1:01:15] Michelle: Some people want to minimize that and say he was again just doing double speak. We always want to accuse our, our prophets of lying. I don’t understand it. Why can’t we just believe what they say? We’re the ones that claim to believe them, right? They say that he was just saying that, that, that it was just illegal. That’s all he know, he said it is not doctrinal. The president of the church has already done. And the heavy lifting for us. All we need to do is keep building on the foundation that has already been established, and we can let go of false doctrines and see what the Lord does. As a result of that, I think that is a beautiful thing to do. It is what I hope and pray for, and I hope that more people will join in that hope and that prayer. When people Say that, um, the church, you know, when they act like, because the church has problems, it’s done, it’s far gone, and we can’t be in it anymore. I, I like, I just disagree. The church absolutely is not ripened in iniquity, which is the only time that there is no hope, right? Is when we are beyond repentance because, and I absolutely do not believe that at all about the church. There are so many incredible people in the church who are seeking for truth, and there is so much good in the church and so much hope that we can go in increasingly positive directions. And that’s what I’m going to hope for. Something that I’ve been thinking about more and more over these past several months is what it means to be the people of God, right? And we know that who the God who God loveth, he chastiseth. Like the story of the people of God throughout Scripture. Our God’s people that he establishes a covenant with, and then continually has to call to repentance, right? Because they keep going astray, like the entire book of Isaiah, this is the story. And um, and, and often I have actually been led to Jeremiah recently. And Jeremiah is almost like a slightly more condensed and clear version of of Isaiah. It’s the same thing. And throughout, God is calling his people to repentance because they have gone astray from the covenant that God established with them. That is exactly the story of the scriptures, and that is who we that is what we should expect to see in ourselves if we are the people of God. Nowhere does God define his people as being people who always got everything right. That’s never been what it’s, that’s never been what it has meant to be the people of God. The people of God are given a covenant. And then God works with them to try to get them back to the covenant repeatedly, because they, they go astray from it. That is what we should expect to see, and that is what we do see in our own history, undeniably, right? It’s like, like, it’s there. It’s going to keep being there. The best thing we can do is is heed God’s invitation to repent so we can continue to be the word of God. That’s another thing I’ve been talking about a lot lately. Nowhere, there is no part of the gospel that requires us to always have been right, to always be right, to never admit we were ever wrong. That’s the opposite of the gospel. What the gospel requires is repentance. And the first step of repentance is acknowledging, seeing that we had been wrong. Having that spiritual awakening, right? Like, I’ve often talked about the people of King Benjamin, when they finally saw themselves. As less than the dust of the earth and how utterly dependent they were. When we see ourselves in our true state as the people of God that are utterly dependent on God, who have fallen so far astray from the covenant that God gave us, but who are so thankful to have the gifts that God has given us, the gift of the atonement and the opportunity to repent and turn again, that’s when we truly are the people of God in the most profound way. If we insist that we were always right, we are unable to repent. We can’t actually live the gospel when we have this insistence that we are carrying on with us. The only reason for us to refuse to let go of false traditions is because we refuse to admit that we could have been wrong. And that’s so backward. That’s the opposite of the gospel. So I really hope that we can recognize that God does not want a people who claim that they have never been wrong. God wants a people who continually repent, and we can’t do both. We can’t claim that we were always right and repent. Those don’t go together. So I vote for the part that fits in with the gospel, the part that says Hey, this is problematic. We have some things that are, that are wrong here. We’re going to revisit it because we are prophets and regulators. We are the leaders of the church, and we can do that, right? And sure, maybe there will be some shaking up, but there will be less shaking up than there was in 1890 or in 1906 or in 1978, or in any of the other times that things have had to be changed. This would be easier than all of those, and I think would be met in Incredibly positive ways, and those are blessings that I think that we desperately need. So that is my hope, and that I hope that more and more will join in. The fact is, we don’t want to just throw the church away. The church is and will very likely, almost certainly continue to be the largest, um, the largest sect or branch of the restoration, right? The largest religious organization. Um, from the restoration inspired by Joseph Smith. The church has a lot of influence and a lot of, um, power throughout the world. The church sends the Book of Mormon and the missionaries and, and it, it just has so much profound influence that we can’t afford to just throw it away. I don’t think we should be willing to do that, and I don’t think that we should want to do that. So now I want to move on to the last part of what I wanted to talk about in this episode, and it relates to the state of the church and where we are and what we can hope for. And, um, I, I’m, I’m, I’m, I am uncomfortable sharing this, so I’m going to do my best because in all of my praying about it, the best clarity I can have is to share. So, I am, I’m going to tell this story as quickly as I can, which usually I don’t tell stories very quickly, and then also, I’m, I’m really trying to get through this with my fuzzy brain, but I was invited to attend a conference on Emma Smith’s birthday that was dedicated to Emma, and I loved the idea. I loved that they invited me. I didn’t think there was any way I could go. It was out of state, and, but I just did what I always do. Hey, Lord, if you want me to go, let me know. And then come to find out, it was in the same town that my oldest, my oldest child and his wife. And my, um, grandchildren just moved to, they had just moved there, and I hadn’t been there to see their new place. And of course, I, you know, the fact that it was in the same town, I was like, Oh, maybe, maybe I can go. Like, as it started getting closer, I just kept feeling, um, like having things come to mind that I would want to share when I went. Um, about Emma Smith and kept feeling like I should go, but didn’t know how I possibly could. But then I found out that there is a train that, um, Amtrak has a train that goes from Salt Lake City to Grand Junction, where this conference was going to be. And I thought, oh, I could take the train and I could sleep and I could work. And then I could go spend time and ride the train home and worked it out with my daughter-in-law to be able to pick me up. And, and I was like, oh, I could go. So the night before, I waited until the night before to make the decision because I have so much, it’s so hard to get away, um, with you guys, you guys that are moms, you understand, you know. But so I bought the ticket the day before, stayed up till the middle of the night, like past midnight, getting everything ready to go, um, so that I could leave. And then I had to be at the train station. I think it was at 3:30 or 4, something like that. So I just had like 3.5 hours of sleep, drove to the train station and waited for the train to come, and it never came. And it never came. Finally, at 6:15, like the train was at 2.5, 3, 2.5 hours late, something like that. I finally got a hold of Amtrak and found out it was indefinitely delayed, which meant it wasn’t coming. And so I, I had had the answer to go. So, but now I was going on 3 hours of sleep and I was gonna have to drive myself and I was gonna be late for the conference even still. And so I just prayed about it and still felt like I should go. And of course, I had been dozing off at the train station, but still not anything like a good. sleep to go make a 4+ hour drive. So, but I felt like I should go. So I just, OK, God, I’ve, I’ve still got 6 kids at home. Like, this would be a really inconvenient time to die. So are you sure? You know, but I felt like I should go. So I went ahead and thought, OK, I’m just gonna start driving. And I did. And I got, um, you know, I, I, I, I was doing really well. I drove until I needed to get gas and go to the bathroom, and Um, and, and found a gas station. And then as soon as I got gas and, you know, I, I was in like the middle of this desert place. I was like, OK, I need to find somewhere to sleep. So by that time, I was pretty tired and I was, I, I don’t fall asleep driving. I never have, at least even when I’ve been really tired, but I do know when I need to pull over. So I was looking really carefully, trying to find somewhere to sleep in this desert road. And all of a sudden there were lights behind me and apparently, I mean, I was in the middle of the desert. I was the only car on the road and I was going 80 and apparently at 65, so. I got pulled over and I was so like I was just, OK God, really, really like you told me to come. I, I, the train doesn’t show up, so I have to drive and now I’m getting a ticket, so I just by this point was devastated like those experiences you have, you know, when you’re like God, this just does not make sense. Why did you tell me to do this? So I kept driving and but after getting the ticket, I had so much adrenaline that I wasn’t about to fall asleep. So, and then I, um, anyway, I made it the rest of the way there, pulled over under a tree and slept. So I missed the morning of the conference cause I was just needed to finally sleep. And then Went anyway, it just, it, it felt like, why am I here? Why am I here? I’m way too tired. And then also, since I was, um, not, I haven’t slept, and I think something in the allergies and also probably the like tears both from lack of sleep and from feeling sorry for myself. By the time I got there, my eyes were just swollen and scaly. I had some kind of like I don’t know, reaction going on in my eyes. And so I’m at this conference where I’m like, I can’t go looking like, like it was, it was really bad. So, so I went and found a little after I slept for an hour or two, went and found a little store discount store and bought a pair of sunglasses and went to the conference wearing sunglasses. And, um, oh, and I forgot to say that while I was going to go there, um, the conference director or the organizer had contacted me and, and I didn’t realize, I guess I had assumed, I didn’t realize that they weren’t planning on me speaking. And so that was part of it too. I was like, why? Why am I driving this far? Not that I wouldn’t come to a conference, but I just had assumed that they had invited me to come and speak, right? And that’s what I, I, I, I thought, I guess I didn’t think through it well enough, so. So I was kind of again like, OK, why am I coming just to attend and like, you know, and so, but, but I, I was there, so I went and, and then, um, the suite director of the conference texted and let me know that actually one of their speakers wasn’t able to come and would I please speak and I could have the whole, you know, the whole. And I was like, oh, and I guess part of it was because part of my answer of going was all of the thoughts that I had had of what, what I would want to share, right? So, So I ended up going to this conference and it ended up being a beautiful, beautiful experience. I was able to share these things that were in my heart. I will contact the director of the conference and ask if she’ll let me link the video of um of the speeches at the conference and of, of what I shared there. And it ended up being just beautiful. And then these sweet people, it wasn’t, it was so sweet when I went to get my bag. They had, cause I have of course told the comedy of errors of getting there as I’m speaking in my sunglasses with my massively infected eyes. And um, and, um, when I went to get my bag, they had, um, they had collected money to pay for my speeding ticket, which was so sweet of them. And And then I stayed the next day, and they invited me to share some things the next day as well. And I ended up being this beautiful, beautiful experience that really fed my soul. I was able to talk to more people and hear their stories, and, um, it was just a beautiful experience. And, um, and I also got to spend time with my cute little, um, son and daughter-in-law and grandbabies who are just, it’s always a treat to get to be with them. So anyway, I, you know, I slept the next night. I got a couple of good nights sleep and then I was on my way home. And when I was starting to leave, I just felt inspired to turn on, um, 3rd Nei. I just thought, I’m gonna listen to the book of 3rd Nephi. It’s what I felt like I should do as I was driving home. So I turned it on to my phone while I was driving and, um, and you know, it’s all, um, the preparation for the coming of Christ, right? And As I was listening, I just kept, um, I, I just knew it was what I was supposed to be listening to, and the spirit was profound, and I kept pausing and just praying for, you know, direction for me, what the Lord wanted me to, um, Incorporate or or what the Lord wanted me to learn. I know that many of you relate to just the spiritual yearning that so many of us have that it’s sort of like this unquenchable, you know, like no matter how many experiences we have with the Lord, we still want Um, to know that we are on track to do all that, the Lord would have us do so that we can continue to have experiences with the Lord, and I was just praying those prayers, you know, Lord, like, what do you want me to do? What like I yet and are there things that I can, um, Uh just, just fine tuning and clarification, are there things that I’m missing? Is there, are there people that I should be serving? Are there, yeah, I just was asking all of the questions of how I can most fully serve the Lord in my life right now. That’s what I was just sincerely. praying about just with this yearning. So one of the times when I paused and I was praying and just trying to commune with the Lord, all of a sudden something came so clearly to my mind, specific words with such a, um, overwhelming. Outpouring of the spirit, this sort of calling home, this longing, yearning, and this invitation home that I felt, and the words were um just these beautiful words that Eve desires to enter the Lord’s presence, then let her enter. And um words similar to that that some of you will be familiar with. Those came powerfully to my mind with this call, this like beacon like weling me, calling me this feeling of homecoming of comfort of being called home, and it was It was overwhelming and I um I just pause and I said, Lord, do you want me to go to the temple and the spirit filled the car, like I can’t you there are no words, right? It just was the most. Um, I, I don’t know, like, like this feeling of this desire to come home and be wrapped in a blanket and picked up on your mother’s lap, that kind of a feeling, right? And um. And I, so I, so I need to back up and tell you that. I, I did those episodes on the temple and I talked about this in those episodes that I, um, have had an interesting relationship with the temple, particularly for the past couple of years, right? It used, I used to go weekly and I just felt like bad for everybody who was still asleep at 6 o’clock in the morning when I was driving to the temple. And, um, and I just had so many profound experiences there. And then Things got more complicated for me with the temple, and then when COVID came, I um I had some really, really awful experiences. And, um, and the only full-blown actual panic attack I’ve ever had, I, uh, I, it happened actually at the temple, and I won’t go into all of the details, just at some point, I will tell my story and the trauma that I experienced regarding masks, regarding, um, All of it, just no, it was intense. It wasn’t just, not that any of it was OK, but what I experienced, um, in the hospital and beyond with my little girls and the whole world, it did a number on me and I was not doing well. And so, um, so, and, and I had repeated experiences at the hospital that just added to this trauma. And so when my sister was going to be sealed in the temple, I called, specifically, I called both my state president and the temple president. I emailed and I called to say, Can I come to my sister’s ceiling? And I can’t only come if I won’t be, um, accosted with a mask. Like, can you please make it, like, is it OK if I come without a mask and can you let all of the workers know to just leave me alone? Just leave me alone so I can come, you know? And, um, And so I, that’s what I had. And, and I had been told, uh, they were all so kind. This was still in 2020, so I was told, yes, that I could come, and they were very, I told them my story. They were very understanding and very, um, helpful and kind, and they said, Please come, you know. And so, um, so I still was doing, I knew I was gonna be around people with masks. I was doing my Deep breathing and meditating the whole way there. Um, when, when I parked before I went in, I just sat and breathe. I was like, OK, I got ready to go into the temple and, um, and it didn’t work out. Um, the word hadn’t gotten down and, um, so, so I was in the waiting area with everybody just breathing and smiling and, you know. And I was, um, I had a worker kind of charge at me with a mask, sister, and, um, and I, um, someone tried to kind of step in, but, but she had another, um, two workers held a mask at my face, and I know this sounds melodramatic, just when I tell my story, hopefully people will understand. But anyway, so I just tried to, I was like, OK, just, you know, I, I just tried to leave. I tried to go out of the temple, but it was when they were letting people in. Um, they had control, the the automatic doors weren’t working. They were controlling them from the desk. So when I tried to go out, I was Walking toward the door, but it closed. It just, I don’t think they did on purpose. They had just let somebody in and I was trying to go out, but the door closed and it, um, when it opened. And so I was, I was just trying to hold it together and leave I like go out of the temple, out of the temple grounds and this like this worker charging at me with this mask that she probably, she probably thought I had been rude or something because I just turned around. Anyways, the door shut and I was. Ah, tried. It was, it was like I just tried to start breathing. I had to wait, I wait for them to reopen the door, which took a minute. And so I was out on the um grounds trying to breathe. Everything was turning black, and you know, um, anyway, I found somewhere to sit down and was able to, it took me a good long time to get um calmed down and and. So anyway, probably too much information. I’m just trying to let you guys know. This has been a hard journey. And so I was able to, you know, they, they got the word and I, I was able to go back in, um, after I, like, my poor mom, you know, I did not want to make my sister’s ceiling about me. It was, but, um, my mom and my sister came out to just kind of Let me feel their heartbeats, you know, kind of calm me down and um. And so when I was able to go back in and my sister was like, I’m, I’m solidarity and took her mask off and just kind of stared at anyone down. You know, I mean, it was, and then, you know, the sealer said something too, and the whole time I was trying to stay calm. So it was a hard experience. And then, you know, that I, um, things went on from there, but I, the temple became someplace that was not safe for me. And so, so, um, I did, as I said, I have gone back one time but I had to just focus the whole time on not being. Angry and not being, um, having another panic attack and not, you know, I just had to focus on, can I be here? You know, I wasn’t really able to focus on what, what, and anyway, so, so that’s been my experience. So, but I realized a little while ago that, um, my Tumblr recommend is going to come up for renewal uh in the near future, and I really have felt Like that just started to again kind of give me this panicky feeling and um yeah like, like what, what should I do, Lord? What do you want me to do? Do you want me to try to renew my temple recommend? I don’t know that I have the emotional wherewithal to try and be turned down, so I’d rather not try, but the thought of not having a temple recommend really. I’ve had a temple recommend my whole life, right? And so, um, so it’s been hard to know what to do. So what I’ve been doing, what I decided is, well, I didn’t even decide. I just started asking the Lord like, should I go to the temple? Do like it just kind of the thought kind of started to come to mind more often. Like, quite often that I would ask, should I go to the temple? And, and I, for quite a while, I just felt, every time I would ask that, I felt this sort of repulsion, this feeling of like, oh, no, I can’t go to the temple. You, you know, like just kind of this pushed away from the temple. And it really surprised me and confused me, and I didn’t know what it was about. And I, um, so, so I’d kind of been trying to pray like, Is this just about my trauma? I guess the question I was asking, is this just about my trauma that I feel this feeling of I can’t go to the temple, or is this telling me something about the temple? Because Yeah, you know, I’ve had a complicated relationship with the temple. And while I have never, I, I’ve never told anybody not to go to the temple, the thing I have said, which is exactly what I said to my leaders, too, is that I hope that our relationship with the temple can be mediated by the Lord rather than us thinking that our relationship with the Lord is mediated by the temple. That’s, that’s. That’s all that I’ve, all that I have believed and all that I’ve wanted to share. But I have encouraged people to go to the temple if they feel called to go to the temple, because I think that God honors faith, right? And when we bring our faith to the temple, God honors that. And I think that’s beautiful. And, um, And so that’s what I have been doing is, God, do you want me to go to the temple? And so this feeling of repulsion, I didn’t know if it was my trauma or if it was somehow that are, is it a problem that all of Brigham Young’s doctrines were in the temple? Does that mean I shouldn’t go now that I know that? I, that was the question I was asking. I’m hesitant to even say it because I don’t want someone to say, that’s what Michelle said. You know, these were the questions I, in the privacy of my own soul was asking God. And so that’s that I had been in that space for a couple of months when I was driving home and had that, um, direct communication and was told to go to the temple. So I, um, I, I think I voice texted my husband and was like, could we go to the temple tonight? And, um, And he, you know, immediately responded with yes, you know, so it felt like another miracle that um he was totally willing to get on. I, I have. A lot of pent up anger about everything that happened with 2020 and with the temples being shut down and with us now having to make appointments that, and, and like I just have a lot of, and then now being told we’re supposed to go when we were told, no, you shouldn’t think you should get to go to the temple. I’ve just, it, that has all been really hard for me to deal with. And so So my husband was totally like, yeah, I’ll set up an appointment for us. And, and then it turned out there were two spots in the session that we would be able to go to when I got home. So that makes sense. We, we had to go to a session after I got home and we only had so much time before. The temple closed, but there were two spots left that he was able to, um, get for us on a Friday night, which, you know, again, felt like, OK, OK, God, cause, cause I’m still not knowing what’s going to happen when I go to the temple. Am I going to have a trauma response? What’s gonna happen? You know? So, so anyway, we ended up coming home even though I’d been gone for a couple of days. My cute kids were so sweet and all gave me a hug and a kiss and were fine with me running in and getting dressed and going, um, to the temple. And As soon as we walked into the temple, I was met with That feeling of, I, I, I have no words and it feels stupid to try to describe it. It was a feeling of being of comfort and welcome home like I cannot describe. I, I knew immediately that I was completely healed from all of the trauma. Like it was completely gone. There was not a the tiniest little bit of having to breathe or do meditative practices to try to, um, not have negative thoughts or, you know, it was just this complete, um, like that. Beautiful familiar feeling of these beautiful workers in white, smiling and directing the way. It was so, so welcoming and comforting and beautiful to me, and I was so aware of that and so surprised and amazed and didn’t know what to think, you know, and so, but the spirit was overwhelming, so I went into the chapel. And was sitting in the chapel and just felt like I should open my scriptures. And, um, I, I was really, it might sound strange to say, but I was confused. I was so confused. I was being overwhelmed with the spirit. I didn’t know what this meant. Lord, what? What do you want me to learn from this? What do you want me to take from this? And I was told to open the Book of Mormon. And so I went to get the Book of Mormon, but there were two Bibles below. I was sitting on the front row in the chapel and, and I, so I had to borrow someone else’s Book of Mormon in the chapel. So I opened the Book of Mormon and turned right to Heliman chapter 4, and my eyes just went to verse 21 and It’s so interesting because so often, like I said, I keep being led to Jeremiah, the book of Jeremiah, and these other scriptures that are, um, that seem to be telling me that we have need to repent as a people, right? That message that I keep getting. And so, so being in the temple, being overwhelmed with the spirit, and I just was like, Lord, please help me understand. What you want me to learn, what is happening and what you want me to learn from this. But anyway, I’ll, I’ll read. So it was he went 4 and I went right to 21, yeah. They began to remember the prophecies of Alma and also the words of Mosiah. And they saw that they had been a stiff necked people and that they had said and not the commandments of God. I felt like Right, that’s in line with what I’ve been reading elsewhere, right? That, that we need to repent and that they had altered and trampled under their feet the laws of Mosiah, or that which the Lord commanded him to give unto the people. And they saw that their laws had become corrupted and they, they had become a wicked people insomuch that they were wicked, even like unto the Lamanites. And so this was all still just confusing me more, right? And because of their iniquity, the church had begun to dwindle. OK, that seems to kind of be what’s been happening, and they began to disbelieve in the spirit of prophecy and in the spirit of revelation, and the judgments of God did stare them in the face. And that kind of got my attention. OK, the judgments of God are maybe staring us in the face. Is that where we are? Um, verse 24. And they saw that they had become weak like unto their brethren, the Lamanites, and that the spirit of the Lord did no more preserve them. Yeah, it had withdrawn from them, um, because the spirit of the Lord does not dwell in unholy temples. That’s what I was told to read, and that’s where I read too. So that I was really confused like if the spirit, the spirit of the Lord had to be to dwell with us, then it wouldn’t dwell in unholy temples. The spirit of the Lord is in this temple. I knew I was shown that undeniably that the Spirit of the Lord was in the temple. And so the Spirit of the Lord, so it’s not an unholy temple. That answered my question. That feeling of repulsion I had had was not about the temple. It was just about me and my old. Trauma, which had been healed this day, and this experience. But I’d been told to go to the temple and I was, anyway, but I, I still was confused. So I felt like I should open the Old Testament, and I turned right to the book of Nehemiah, which is not a book that I spend a lot of time in. But it was Nehemiah chapter 9, and my eyes again, I, I just felt to read 26 and 27. So I’ll share those and just share the insight that I felt like they gave to me. It said, Nevertheless, they were disobedient and rebelled against thee. I was kind of asking, what does this mean about our people? Like, did we get these wrong? Were there bad teachings at the temple? What, what does all of this mean, right? So this is what I was led to. They were disobedient and rebelled against the Lord. And cast, this is about the Lord speaking to the Lord, and cast thy law behind their backs and slew thy prophets, which testified against them to turn them to thee. And they wrought great provocations. Therefore, thou delivers them into the hands of their enemies who vexed them. And in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, I expected it to say, Thou hurtest them not, right? Like that’s always what we get. But it didn’t say that, which shocked me. It said, In the time of their trouble when they cried unto thee, thou hearest them from heaven, and according to thy manyfold mercies, thou gavest them saviors who saved them out of the hands of their enemies. So this was so beautiful to me because of how it wrapped up specifically that the Lord heard the cries of the people, heard the repentance of. The people and visited the people with mercy, which is the opposite of being ripened in iniquity, right? Is the opposite of the Lord saying, since you didn’t hear me, I won’t hear you. That is not what I was led to. That was not what the Lord said. And I felt so strongly that Just, just this message confirms that yes, we have gotten things wrong. Yes, we have had false doctrine taught over our pulpits and even included in our temples and included in our scriptures, but We have the spirit of the Lord with us. We have so much, um, opportunity still, right? We are still, the Lord still hears us. The Lord still blesses us. The Lord still accepts our um, our repentance absolutely and our please. For help. So whatever troubling times might be coming, we can reach out to the Lord in faith that we, that our prayers will be heard, right? And that the Spirit of the Lord still is in the temple and that the Lord can be found in the temple. And, um, So we have this legacy of faith, this heritage handed down to us by our beautiful ancestors, even with the um hardships that they experienced and the false doctrines that they were operating under. Who knows what false doctrines we’re still operating under, right? Still, we have been given this legacy of faith, of goodness, of um mercy of repentance, of forgiveness, of striving of honesty, of chastity of morality of valuing parenthood, valuing valuing children of hard work. And building things of sacrifice of loyalty and um all of the beautiful and leaving everything out. But, but this gospel and the people that established this gospel have been glorious, gorgeous, wonderful, incredible. Incredible people, this legacy that we have is absolutely wonderful and of infinite worth, and the the temples, all of it, all of it is beautiful and flawed, right, and there are problems because we are living in this mortal realm and this is what this life is, but this is what I know that the Lord has continually. Um, confirmed to me and now in this most, um, glorious way, there is hope. There is so much hope. There is absolutely a way forward, and if we just continue in faith, doing our little part, whatever the Lord wants us to do, seeking to Always be inspired so we don’t go off and do something that won’t be helpful, right? But we can try to play our role wherever that is. This is what my role is, and this is where I am called to be. And I am so thankful to God for healing my relationship with the church, with, with now the temple, with all of these different parts. I, I I just am overwhelmed, overwhelmed by the goodness of God. And when I see things that are happening in these other realms, that’s like when I talked about them being willing, the, um, the overseer of all of the historic sites who writes the scripts and the permission president being willing to look at my research. I’m nobody, you know, like, but they were like, this is good research, we’ll make this change. Oh. Beautiful. That’s amazing, right? And now I, um, I’m getting to speak at this historical conference, which maybe that will open some more doors. I certainly would welcome everybody’s prayers that, um, that maybe more doors can be opened. And this is just my little journey and the things that I’m doing. But I tell you, the Lord is in this work for all of us who are trying to bring truth forward. Well, hopefully trying to keep a hold of the truth that we already have. So. That is what I wanted to share today, and thank you for sticking with me through all of this. There will be more exciting episodes coming up next week should be part two of my panel of women responding to Mormonland. I know some people were disappointed that that wasn’t last week. I’m sorry, I, I’m trying to find the best schedule. Well with the manage well managing the resources of time and energy that I have right now, I’m going to be working on my, um, paper and presentation for JWHA, but I have a couple of things already recorded and ready to go. That should be great, and I will see you on the other side. Thanks again.
