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Joseph Fought Polygamy, by Richard and Pamela Price
Transcript
[00:00] Michelle’s Son: Welcome back to 132 Problems revisiting Mormon polygamy. My mom had more migraines this week, but don’t worry, she’s OK. And since I’m the last spoiler at home who hasn’t helped with an introduction, she said it was my turn, so here you go. Today’s interview is a good one. My mom interviewed an awesome guy called Steve Reed. He’s really awesome and he has a really cool blog called One Clines. Steve wrote a paper about Jacob chapter 2. I’m gonna admit I haven’t read it yet, but my mom said it’s crazy good. So I’m glad you’ll heal. Go ahead and sit back, relax. Hit that subscribe button and let’s dive into Mormon polygamy.
[00:56] Michelle: Welcome to 132 Problems. I am so pleased to be here with Steve Reed, who is a name I have known for quite a while, someone who has been extremely patient with me as we’ve gone back and forth as I’ve tried to, um, make available a time to, to have him come and talk to me, because I have really, really wanted to talk to Steve for a variety of reasons. I’ll do what I know of, um, of you, Steve, as a quick introduction, but you’ll have to round it out because I did not do my due diligence. I just know that Steve has a blog, a fantastic blog called One Who One Climes, is that right? Let me go ahead and share it right here. This is Steve’s blog One Climes, and I believe Steve, you also have a podcast, is that correct?
[01:43] Steve Reed: Yeah, a couple of years back, I started a podcast and, yeah, I, I, I don’t have a ton of content yet. I just recently switched over to doing a little bit more video.
[01:52] Michelle: OK. And I’ll just tell specifically, the reason that I had wanted to talk to Steve, he wrote. This amazing post, a proposed reinterpretation of Jacob 2:30, and I believe this was back January of 2017. So what’s that been? Um, 7.5 years ago is my math, correct? And, and I have wanted. Yeah, I, I, I read this a long time ago. I know that my husband read it before I did. Um, it’s, we’ve been trying to figure out what the post was my husband read that alerted him about Polygamy and Jacob 2:30, and it was long before this. So I know it wasn’t yours. And he actually thinks he was just studying the scripture. So that’s possible too, because it was before rocks as well. But anyway, this was really early on that you jumped into this, um, topic. And so anyway, I would love to tell, have have you tell us a little bit about yourself and kind of your journey that led you to the place of writing this incredible piece of work that you did, because it really is good. It will be linked below, everybody. I cannot recommend it highly enough. It’s really good.
[02:57] Steve Reed: Oh, thank you, thank you. I, I really appreciate you having me on to talk about this cause it’s a very interesting subject to me and it’s, it’s kind of been one of those, one of those things that goes way back, like maybe over 20 years, and then all of a sudden, you know, just these uh these last uh couple of years, there have been some other developments and whatnot, but I originally started this blog as and and it still kind of has this purpose. I’m, my, my audience for this is actually my posterity, my children. Um, this is kind of my public. Uh, not my small plates, but maybe some other kind of medium plates or something like that, uh, just to put down some ideas and things and and there’s a whole backstory of that. Um, I guess a little bit of background is my father’s a convert to the church, he, he joined the church, um, uh, early on in his life after he had met my mother, and both of her parents are converts, and, uh, my grandfather joined when he was in the navy. Met my grandmother, uh, she was Catholic, and they both became Latter-day Saints. And then, you know, my father was introduced. And so, I grew up down in South Texas, way outside of, of Utah, and, and a lot of the, uh, you know, kind of the culture that, that most people would, would think is very, very LDS like, you know, the Salt Lake Temple and all those things. And when I went to the MTC, that was actually the first time I’d ever seen it that in person. It was like, You know, growing up, all, all of that was might as well just been on the moon, for all I knew, you know, it was, it was just one of those things that was so far away and, and so different. And so living and growing up as a member of the church, you know, I was, I was the only member in my senior class of 668. There were 3000 students in my high school. Uh, there were two other members of the church. They were like a freshman and sophomore, and so I’ve, I’ve pretty much been an extreme religious minority throughout my life and um going back here, uh, shortly after my mission. I had this, I had this really interesting experience, you know, when you’re in a mission when you’re a missionary, you’re just talking to people every single day and you’re, you’re engaging with people and they have questions and concerns and really the internet was, this was like 1999, 2001, and so Um, we were just starting to really, at least for me, experience the internet. We, my, my city was very slow to adopt technology. I didn’t even use the internet till after my mission, you know, so, OK. Yeah, so I was a very late adopt. And now that’s like a big part of what I do for a living. uh
[05:37] Michelle: Can I ask you, can I ask you really quickly as you’re getting into this and growing up so far away from Utah, so you were removed from like any Mormon centric, um, society, but also, what did you know about polygamy? What were you taught where I don’t even know if you went to church with other youth or if it was just you, you know, like, How was this handled in your institute if you, I mean, your seminary, if you had early morning seminary and, and in your classes, what did you think? What were you told about polygamy or Joseph’s polygamy or any of it?
[06:09] Steve Reed: So I heard about it growing up. My dad had done a lot of deep dives, as deep as you could go back then without having access to original source records and everything, but he, he really got into this. He was very skeptical, but he came to the point where he was pretty much like, OK, everything makes kind of sense. And he, uh, we had lots of conversations. I worked with him all growing up. So we did lawn maintenance and marine construction and So we would go out together and we’d have conversations and talk about things like this, and it was kind of interesting and and I heard about it. I knew about it, not too much, but, you know, I, you read about it in the Bible too, like you’re like, oh well, David, Solomon and uh various people and you you look up, you look up all the references and you’re like, oh, there’s there were several people doing things like this and then Then I guess it was part of the early church history and but, but again, it was like I didn’t have any descendants that were members. I didn’t have stories passed down to me or anything and it was yeah, it’s like talking about George Washington and and the founding fathers and what they did and, you know, and you know, like you hear about people that had slaves, you know, some of the founding fathers had slaves, and you’re like, OK, well, well, they did good things, you know, and I’m not gonna condemn them because they did did certain things and You know, uh, David seems like he got into a lot of trouble. He had a guy killed so he could take his wife, but Jesus is on the cross, essentially, you know, quoting one of the Psalms, you know,
[07:37] Michelle: so. And so, and there also wasn’t a lot of sort of, um, you were kind of in the Bible Belt in Texas, right? So there wasn’t a lot of anti-Mormon, or people accusing you, trying to tell you the bad things about Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
[07:51] Steve Reed: You know, I, I, I kept my faith very quiet. Uh, I was not a very bold person. I kind of just existed on the sideline. I was a little bit of a wallflower, kind of quiet. Um, I wish, like, I look back, I, I wish I had been, you know, more vocal and outspoken. There were times where I was, I was challenged on my faith, like in the middle of a class about something, and I had to, I had to kind of stand up for what, and, and then it turns out like half of the class was on my side with a particular issue. So I, so I had experiences like that, and I realized over time that I, I should have a lot more trust in the people around me, in the goodness of people. But, um, I like that. I, I didn’t, I didn’t, I didn’t have that trust. I, I feared my ability to defend myself cause I honestly, there, man, there’s a whole other part of this would take way too long to go into, but uh I didn’t really know about the existence of God growing up. Um, as far as my personal knowledge, like I, I grew up, but not, yeah, yeah, and, and the gospel, like we had a happy family, you know, uh, things were going well, things made sense. I, I loved going to church. I loved going to seminary. I didn’t like waking up early, but You know, I went to seminary and, and I enjoyed all that. It was my, it was the structure of my faith, you know, growing up. It was, it was our, our tradition that we had forged from kind of a multi-faith background. We, we’re, we’re kind of starting new traditions and things, and, and this was a very unifying thing for us. Um, I remember, I, I still remember being 3 years old, the trip, we drove all the way from South Texas up to Logan. And I remember putting my hand on my parents’ hands in the temple when we were all sealed together. I had a younger sister. I was 3 years old. That’s one of my earliest memories, is all the white everywhere and all of our hands together. And so, it’s a really beautiful thing. Um, and it, it’s, it’s been such a, a great blessing in so many ways. It, it really gave me purpose and direction. I found that when I lived the gospel, I, I was happy, you know, and, uh, I’d seen friends make different mistakes, and I, I watched other people, and I, I felt like I had something very good and positive, and so, So yeah,
[10:14] Michelle: let’s jump back to your mission. OK.
[10:19] Steve Reed: Right, so, so I, I remember it was kind of uh maybe towards the end. I remember being at a door with somebody and uh the wife came to the door and she’s like, OK, well what about this? And the husband was sitting on a computer. And he was just like, tell him about this. And she’s like, What about that? And we’d answer it. And they go, what about this? And, and we’re sitting here, like going back and forth. We’re going back and forth for like 45 minutes. Well, while someone is back there like doing all the research and looking things up and this, and his wife is like the middle man. Going back and forth. And I just said, OK, look, I was like, every time we answer one of your questions, we jump to something else. And I was like, Are you guys really interested in what we have? And they’re like, No. I was like, no. Oh, it’s not really productive. I like, I would love to sit and talk about this, but is this really product? So anyway, I, so I come home, uh, and, and on my mission, obviously, we, we sat and we talked to all kinds of people. We talked to ministers and, uh, you name it. It was, this was in, uh, the Idaho Boy Mission. Which was very foreign to me because I’d never seen that many members of the church in my life. It was kind of culture shock. Now I know, and the week I came home, we watched the Sings ward where he gets his call to Boise, Idaho. Everyone’s like laughing. Oh, that’s you. But for a Texan, I mean, that, that’s a very foreign place if if you’ve grown up you
[11:38] Michelle: were called on your mission out of the mission field into into Mormon land, you know, like. In your topic, yeah, that’s the world the mission field, and yeah. Yeah,
[11:50] Steve Reed: I’ve, I’ve heard of that, right? And, and, but I think what they did is they bring a lot of people that are that are out in the mission field into, uh, a place like Idaho, and because there were guys from Mongolia, there were tons of foreign missionaries in there. So you got to actually see how the church operated and ran and what it’s supposed to look like and everything, and you go back home and you’re like, OK. So that was, that was really valuable to see that, I thought, um. Uh, people that were, uh, very, very kind people, everyone, uh, members of the church or not. I really appreciate it. I, I think I had the door, uh, maybe slightly forcefully closed on me like twice, you know, but people were very polite. No one was really that mean. But anyway, so, uh, let’s fast forward a little bit. So, you know, I come back home, um, Uh I want to make it clear that that I had uh growing up, I, I had Very little connection with God, and it was something I desired quite a bit. And um, And that connection with God actually did come at a point, and it continued to grow throughout my experience as a missionary. And, um, uh, I, I experienced what I thought most members of the church had experienced, uh, baptism of fire in the Holy Ghost. Like, I’d read about this in the scriptures, and I, I wanted that for myself, and, and, um, I grew a deep, uh, a deep personal, um, Set of, uh, experiences with the Lord and hearing his voice and, and having his guidance and, and just being full of his love and his power and his glory. And, and something that I never thought I would ever be able to experience. Cause I, I felt like just really a nobody, you know, I, I didn’t, I was just kind of, who am I, right? Going out here and my whole perspective on mission is I had some experiences and I felt like I needed to tell other people. And I’m just here as a messenger. I’m, I’m like, you know, I, I’m not smart enough to try to convince people or whatever. I just want to come and share a message. That’s all I care about. And, and so that was what I, so, so when I, I come home and I have this experience, it’s not very unusual. That’s why I’m prefacing this, OK? I know that’s a lot of that’s kind of vague, but, um, you know, I, I’m lying in bed and I wake up in the morning and I hear a clear voice speaking to me. And this is very strange because it’s a woman’s voice. And clear Isabel, completely audible, um, and this woman’s voice tells me to go to my neighbor Joe and give him a book of Mormon. And And I, I thought about that. I said, OK, that’s kind of weird, and, and I hesitated a little bit, and I didn’t really do anything about it for a few days, you know, I was like, Maybe I just woke up and maybe it was like at the edge of a dream or something like that, and something, you know, maybe I’d been thinking about it and my subconscious was awakening and, you know, um, yeah, cause even though I experienced some pretty incredible things, I, I’m still a very skeptical person that you might find that hard to believe, but, uh, still very skeptical of things and, and always questioning things. And so then a few days later, again, uh, I wake up in the morning. And Again, the exact same voice a few days later, and she says, you haven’t listened. And so, and I knew exactly what what I was talking about, right? I’m like this is very strange. So I said, OK, um, apparently. The Lord wants me to give my neighbor this this book. So I went over to his house and I said, hey, hey Joe, how’s it going? You know, it’s, it’s good to be home. I’d only been home a couple of weeks and, and I said, um, I said, hey, this, this might seem a little odd, but, you know, you know, I’ve been gone for a couple of years doing this missionary work, and I said, I have this book, it’s, it’s very sacred and very important to me, and I, I have this, uh, this very strong feeling that I’d like to share with you, you know, and so I just handed it to him and I said, um, I just, uh, I feel compelled to, to give this to you for whatever reason, and he, he thanked me and was very kind, very good guy, him and his wife, and, uh, and nothing really I
[16:08] Michelle: was gonna ask that. So his wife was living, so it wouldn’t have been his wife. I, I’m just, I found myself
[16:13] Steve Reed: curious
[16:14] Michelle: or his wife or, you know, like, like I did you ever get any insight into who this specific messenger was because it could have been one of your messengers for your sake, you needed this experience, or it could have been someone for his sake that needed him to have that experience.
[16:29] Steve Reed: It could be. It was very odd. Like, I still like clear as a bell, remember this voice. Like I, I can hear it in my head, just as clear as the day it happened. So then a few days later, I have a dream. And this is where this gets into the whole polygamy thing, you know, cause I, I knew about it. I’d researched it in the mission field and there’s scriptures and DNC 132, and there’s all these things you’re like, OK, here’s the narrative, and OK, I guess it makes sense. There’s a test and and I had heard about it growing up but it wasn’t ever like a, a, you know, a a super and we didn’t have a lot of information, we didn’t have a lot of details that we we do today and I had learned later on. So I knew a lot more post mission about the subject than I did before, uh, and, uh, so then it could
[17:13] Michelle: just be kind of this, this, this, um, non nondescript, non-defined caring for the widows type of idea, right? Like it didn’t have to be, yeah, we didn’t have to be specific about it. OK.
[17:25] Steve Reed: Yeah, I, I just, I honestly didn’t think too deeply into it, because the, the gospel, there’s so many things going on. There’s all kinds of, there’s miracles, there’s the Red Sea parting. There’s all these different things and just we have so much scripture and to get into all of it and understand what it means in church history, and we had the Dewey Decimal system to try to, I mean, you’re not gonna get a lot of information, not like we have now. This, it’s wonderful to live in this day and age. But, but anyway, you know, a couple days pass, and then, uh, this time, there’s a 3rd time this voice comes, and it says something very interesting. And, uh, it’s kind of funny when he’s like, I’m hearing voices, right? Yeah, so, uh,
[18:06] Michelle: I can, I can validate like I’ve had similar I sometimes there are audible voices, and you, you will know the voice when you hear it again on the other side, you, you know, like it’s very, it can be very distinct.
[18:19] Steve Reed: And this is not the first time it happened and it and it hasn’t been the last either. Um, one
[18:23] Michelle: of
[18:23] Steve Reed: them.
[18:24] Michelle: So listening to this that’s like anti-faith and thinking that we’re just schizophrenic, let me just ask you, is this a normal thing? Are you hearing voices on a daily basis? Do that right? There’s a difference between Mental instability or mental illness, which is a real thing, and spiritual experiences, which is not the same thing as mental illness. So I just wanted to clarify that he was thinking, oh, he’s hearing voices.
[18:47] Steve Reed: I think the biggest factor is context. Like if you’re just randomly hearing voices, I don’t, I don’t know what that’s like to just randomly randomly hear voices, but But anytime there was a voice, it was in context of something. Like we were, me and my companion were walking down the road of Shoshone, Idaho, and we had knocked on every single door. There were 534 houses in that town, and we knocked all of them like 5 times, like we kept records and we wanted to check and make sure people are home. We were very concerned about making sure everybody, you know, heard the message, we got to talk to everyone, you know, and and we were walking down the road one day and um I said, I said, Elder, what direction should we go? And he just points and he goes that way. And so, OK, we started walking that way, and as we’re walking, um, something very strange happened, and it was, there was snow everywhere. We were slipping all over the ice cause I’m from Texas, he’s from Mexico City and he had wrecked our car and so we were walking and we’re sliding all over the place, we can’t control ourselves, and we’re we’re walking and then um and then something weird just causes us to look up at the same time, and we both hear and feel um the words run. And we just sprint in this direction. It was like, it was like we were in perfect sync. We sprinted across the schoolyard due through like, uh, 2 ft of snow and got to this house and this man had fallen off this ladder and busted his head on the side of his house. It’s a huge splatter there. His mouth was filling up with blood. We had to like, uh, and, you know, it could be a neck injury and everything, but he’s drowning on his own blood. It was crazy, and, uh, we gave him a blessing at the time and, and anyways, there’s a whole story, but But there was a conscious decision to turn down that street. And because there was snow, when you’re in the snow, it’s, it muffles everything. And like, I mean that guy would have died if the spirit had guided us down there and like directed us to go down. And so there’s things like that that happened, but context, right? So the context of this was Um, I had this dream where I was, uh, I was getting married, or I, I was married. I was married to this girl, you know, dreams are just kind of weird. They just throw a scene at you sometimes and you just have this pre-existing knowledge of what’s going on. So I was married to this girl, and then, and then there was another girl right there and uh it was like, OK, now you have to marry her. And I was trying to reconcile this, and there was this bit of confusion and this hesitation. It was, it’s kind of a weird situation. And then, um, right in the middle of this, this kind of confusion, I wake up and then the third time this voice comes and just, uh, she says, Understand it so you can defend it. And,
[21:57] Michelle: and I just was polygamy. Yeah there was a feeling of discomfort in it. And then this voice who had gained your trust, you knew this voice. So it was the 3rd time, commanded you to understand it, to defend it. Whoa, OK. Whoa, what did that mean? OK, that’s huge.
[22:15] Steve Reed: That’s. It was kind of vague, right? So at first, the first uh take that I think you might hear when you hear that story is, is kind of what I thought too, like understand polygamy, so you could defend polygamy. But I, I thought a lot about this dream, and I was like, is that what, is that what it was saying? So, so I’m pondering this more and more, and um And I’m, I’m thinking, you know, how God uses symbols and how he and how some things sometimes dreams can be weird, you know. And, uh, and I started thinking about it and I was like, you know, um, I had this, I had this different take on this dream, the more I thought about it, and and I I thought to myself, It feels like what this dream meant was that there are difficulties. Just with church history and doctrines and things that confused people. And that this was just a model of what was being used. Like it was, it was representing the, some of the difficult questions we have. And that I was, I was being told to understand it, like, to understand the landscape of it so I could, I could defend it. Understand the truth so I could defend the truth. It was like a, you see how you’re in this confusing situation. Well, you need to understand the truth so you can defend it, right? That’s,
[23:35] Michelle: you take that to mean understand church history so you can defend the church?
[23:39] Steve Reed: Yeah, and, and just my and just my young, you know, limited way of understanding things. I was like, I really need to to just go down every rabbit hole of all of the most difficult questions about the church, the doctrine. And just understand everything, so, so I can, I can defend the truth. I I know it, it sounds from the outside, like it’s saying, understand polygamy, so you could defend polygamy, but it didn’t feel that way, right? Otherwise, otherwise I, I felt like it would have been more of an acceptance of it in the dream, but there was this, but I didn’t understand why there was this. This kind of consternation, right? And that’s one that
[24:21] Michelle: I find that often that’s how experiences with the Lord can be, that we’re told something, we totally think we know what it means, and then we have to be given a different perspective on it later on, that, that we have developed the capacity to understand that we maybe didn’t have the ability to understand before. Because it could mean, like, understand the confusion, understand this feeling of something’s wrong. Understand. Do, do you know what I mean? Like, understand what’s wrong here so you can explain the truth of God. It could mean any of those things. But in, but all we can do at the time that we get the answers go forward with what we think it means, which is exactly what God knows we’re going to do. I don’t think that’s unusual.
[25:03] Steve Reed: No, it’s not, and, and oftentimes I think um Oftentimes we go down a road, we think we know what it means, but we don’t really know until years later, you know. I’ve waited 20 years for an answer to a prayer. That’s been the longest time period I’ve had to wait for one. But, um, I had to, but I learned through that experience that the only way for me to understand the answer to the question I had been asking for 20 years was I had to live and experience certain things, cause otherwise the answer wouldn’t have made sense. And the answer was 4 words and a little gift from the Lord of flashing before my eyes, the things in my life that I needed to experience and be reminded of. And so, so anyway, this, so this happens and it’s, it’s very strange, and I’ve never forgotten it. And so I, I, I was the type of person, I always loved digging into the scriptures and just pulling everything out and And so, I said, OK, well, I’m gonna make a more concerted effort to explore the difficult questions. And so I went, you know, I went down every rabbit hole you could possibly go down, like, cause I, I, I wasn’t afraid to do this either, cause I had already been through my dark night of the soul as a late teenager. Um, I know some people have that experience later on in life. I happened to have it earlier on in life, and, and that is a whole other story, let me tell you. But, uh, um, I’d been through that, and I found Christ, and I had this foundation. You know how the scriptures talk about how, you know, build upon the rock of Christ, and then when the winds come and the shafts in the world running things. It’s not gonna have power to shake you. So I already had that. I had this relationship with God that was my anchor. So I didn’t, I didn’t care so much about all of the weird things that, that mankind does. You know what I’m saying? If you look back at history, and it’s written by the winners, and there’s just all kinds of contradictions and paradoxes, and it’s, it’s just very. It’s messy. It’s weird, and, uh, and so I get that, right? And one of my little, uh, kind of examples is I, I think to myself, OK, I experienced yesterday myself. Now, if I had to go to a movie director or a writer and tell them about my yesterday, and have them write it all down and give them all the information I could and say, OK, make a movie out of what I did yesterday, how accurate would that be? You know what I’m saying? It just happened, you know, and now we’re trying to go back decades, hundreds, thousands of years rebuilding things. So I don’t, I don’t think history per se is, is the Is the uh The real intent of the scripture, I mean, the, the historical events are important in that this happened, but it’s why it happened. It’s the doctrine and the principles and the teachings and the knowledge of the, um, yeah, how it shapes us, how we wrestle with it, you know, it gets put into our lap and we have to make a decision about it. And you always, you know, you read about these wrestling like Eus, he has this wrestle with God struggling, it says, and Great, you know, just great struggling after struggling as he’s, he’s trying to unravel these things. But he’s willing to engage in the struggle. He’s not letting it shy him away, but it’s through those struggling and through that wrestle with God that he gets these answers, and he gets gets God to covenant with him, right? So I think that’s really important. So anyway, So, years and years are going by, you know, I’m, I’m digging through all these things, I’m finding things, and I’m, I’m finding that it’s very helpful as, as I’m getting older and people are hitting faith crises to where I’m already aware of, I’m like, oh, you’re just barely getting into this stuff. I’ve been knee deep in this stuff forever. And so I, I liked being in a place where I, I went down that road a long time ago and I wrestled with it, and I came to some sense of understanding and peace, and I was able to talk to someone else. And so, and later on in, in Fowler’s stages of faith, you know, you, you, they talk about stage 4 and the whole dark night of the soul and how people in stage 3, everything makes sense. Everything fits in the little box you’ve created for yourself. And then at some point, that box. Can shatter for some people. And there’s various reasons why it will shatter. For some people it never shatters, you know, and that’s fine, and you can be a good person in any of those stages of faith. They’re not familiar with Fowler’s stages of faith. Look it up. It’s, it’s a very interesting con uh construct. It’s not perfect, but it explains a lot. The one important thing. To understand, I think about people in stage 4 is they are not apostates, they’re not backsliders. They’re not bad people. Their faith, they’ve outgrown the pot that they’re in, and they have to find a new way forward.
[30:05] Michelle: This struggle back and forth for people in stage 3. So just to give people that that aren’t familiar, stage 3, and you can help, help me out, see, like, stage 3, you’re more concerned with rules and right and wrong and boundaries and borders, and this is how it’s supposed to be. It’s a much more Um, I’m just, I, I don’t know what the word is, that’s not insulting. I don’t mean it to be insulting, but it’s like, this is what’s right, this is what’s wrong. These are the rules. This is how you’re supposed to do it, right? The dogma is the thing. Whereas, and then, and then it does come to a point where you see all of the challenges and problems and how there’s, there’s contradiction and hypocrisy and, and, and much more than that, you see that this doesn’t work and it does dissolve, and that’s hard. And I think that in some ways, I happen to think that’s a really good thing. I think that that’s what the parables of Jesus are designed to do. There is a stage 3 understanding of the parables. There is a stage 4 understanding that you can’t even see in stage 3, let alone even be aware that it exists, right? And so, um, so I think that polygamy is a useful tool to help people transcend from stage 3 to stage 4, which I think is part of our spiritual progression to become more like God. I think it’s a good thing. And then the challenge becomes, can people in stage 3 and stage 4 be in communion with each other? Can we continue to love one another and have charity for one another. Because people in stage 3 can really struggle with people in stage 4. They’re apostate, they’re, you know, they need to be kicked out. That comes at, at, stage 4 people a lot. I’ll speak, you know, and then, and then stage 4 people can turn around and be so impatient with the Phariseeical attitudes and the, you know, so, so I think it’s, it gives us an additional challenge on both sides to To continue to seek charity, to not try to change everybody like we are on the right side, but to see them where they are and love them where they are as God does. And I think that’s the the challenge that we’re called to as we are all progressing spiritually at our own pace, in our own ways, but trying to keep the body of Christ together and unified. That, I think it’s a challenge, but I think it’s a worthy challenge. I hope that we’re all up to it.
[32:18] Steve Reed: Yeah, I love that. It’s, it’s really important to, and you’ll notice that any of the stages, all of the teachings of Jesus apply. We, we have to be patient with each other on both sides, right? Um, and, and, and people will sometimes be afraid of, of those who, who progress down a certain way. And it’s true, like, uh, a lot of people drift into stage 4, and it, it, it kind of shatters their, it shatters their paradigms, it shatters their faith and One of the things that I think we could do a better job of, like, one of, one of my little sayings I came up with, I, I think I got a blog post called it, but it says that the path to God is strewn with shattered paradigms. And oh, I love that. And I don’t think we. It is, and And I don’t think we teach that enough. You, you know, you look in the scriptures, look at Namon, when one of my, my kids, they always will go, but I thought, uh, but I thought we were gonna get to stay up all night and eat candy. But, but I thought I didn’t have to wash the dishes. But I, and so I, I point to Namon in the scriptures. He’s like, he goes, Behold, I thought that surely the prophet would come out and wave his hand and do this thing, and he just, he had this expectation, Moses. When he’s, he’s taken up, he’s shown this vision and he falls to the ground, he goes, now I know that man is nothing, which thing I’d never suppose. Same with Nephi, there’s so many examples where we have these thrown theophaies, these visions where they’re taken up and their mind is just blown. They’re they’re like, I had no idea. I, I didn’t think it was like this, you know, and, and, um. And I think if you’re gonna progress with God, you know, and most of the time, and this is way way before you even get to the point where maybe you’re, you’re you’re looking him in the eye or standing in his presence, but just grappling with the challenges he puts in your way. You’re like, well, but I thought. I thought prophets couldn’t make mistakes, like, but I thought, you know, the scriptures were translated this way. But I thought, you know, this is the way it’s always been, you know, and we, we kind of have these, these little pet things, these, these little boxes. And a lot of times, you know, if, if you have a very simple view of the gospel, And you pick it up and you go out and you love and serve your neighbor, and you just love getting up and going to church and listening to the talks, and you go visit people and and you’re listening to the spirit, and it’s like, go bring them a plate of cookies, and there’s so many people like that that are just good solid Christian people that are that are following the way of Christ. And you talk to them about Um, you know, uh, the, the edits that were made to, uh, one of William Clayton’s journal where it says to be revised and like I don’t know anything about that, you know, like, well, you should and you should care. They’re like, well, I don’t, and it’s
[35:02] Michelle: they don’t even know that, yeah, multiple first vision accounts or, I mean all of that is not in their wheelhouse of what they think. Well,
[35:12] Steve Reed: it’s really funny because a lot of these paths, it’s like the Santa Claus, and now, so my kids, before my kids are baptized, every single one of them I have 4 daughters. I’ve always tried to preempt anything my kids could hear at school or from other people. I want them to hear from me first before they hear from anyone else. And so a lot of people may not agree with this, but before my kids are baptized, sometime when they’re about 7, I tell them the truth is Santa Claus. I, I sit them down and I do it. Now, what I don’t say is, hey, there is no Santa Claus, right? What I do is I find a YouTube video about Saint Nicholas. I said, come here, I wanna show you something. I said, I want you to learn who Saint Nicholas was, you know, I want to tell you the truth about Santa Claus and who he is. And so, I show him a video and, you know, he’s a really interesting guy. He, he slapped the guy during the council of Nica. I don’t think that ever makes it a lot of those videos, but there’s a funny story,
[36:12] Michelle: yeah,
[36:13] Steve Reed: in debating that, I think the Trinity when they were trying to decide and, and, uh, there’s a story behind that, I believe. And so, but there, there are tales about him where he puts these coins into the stockings of these children so they don’t get kind of sold into uh. Um, terrible things, right? Yeah, and so, uh, but he was a, a, a great man, uh, he was a man who was, who was so kind and so great that they, they made these stories about him because he was a great example of Jesus Christ in some of the ways that he taught and how he lives, and what he did. And so we start learning about Saint Nicholas and say, this is actually who Santa Claus is based off of, and it gives me an opportunity to talk to them about symbols, and they say, you see how powerful it is when we talk about Santa Claus at Christmas, how we’re talking about. Uh, someone who tried to be a servant of God and bless people and live their lives, and that’s how we should be, and that’s what Santa Claus should remind us of. So Santa Claus becomes this powerful symbol. So the truth behind it is actually more significant and powerful and meaningful than a magical guy who flies around in a sleigh. And, and a lot of times we have a Santa Claus view of God. But the truth about who God really is, is far more fascinating, far more in depth, and it may shatter your paradigms, you know. But I think it’s important at that young age, you know, at least from them. I want them to know when they they go in to make a covenant with God, that God is not in the same category as Santa Claus. Well,
[37:41] Michelle: I think that approach is so exquisite because the idea of it is It’s so easy to destroy faith, to poke holes, point out the hypocrisy, point, right? And I feel like when the paradigms shatter, it’s so sad that that a lot of people go to a place of less faith rather than more. Much they, they increase in cynicism, and you, you know, in material, wanting material proofs without understanding even how perception works and how the world is not strictly material, right? And I think that the approach you’re taking is one that I wish that more of us could take, who have had our paradigms shatter is to be aware of the responsibility to increase faith rather than destroy faith as people are as we’re trying to hope to bring more people through to a more comprehensive understanding, right? I think that shattering paradigms by simply. Criticizing and saying this was wrong and this was wrong and this was wrong is it is like, well, I mean, according to the Book of Mormon whatsoever increases our belief in Christ, teaches a man to pray and teaches us to believe in Jesus Christ that cometh forth of the spirit of God, right? And so I love that careful, thoughtful approach to first seek to do no harm, right? My first thought is to cherish the, um, sanctity of faith and to never destroy. Faith, but to help try to help build faith, to try and that’s what I loved what you also said, having been someone who went first, and then you can kind of take someone’s hand in in some ways and say, these are some ways I’ve thought about this, or, you know, so you can be there to kind of show them. The, um, the, the gra the what is it, the footholds and the finger grabs up this mountain so that we can help people climb instead of just falling off the mountain. I think that’s a huge responsibility that everyone who has gone through this should take very seriously. I think that the goal to have people just lose all of their faith and lose their community. and lose their connection is not a worthy goal. It’s not a godly goal. And, and I think that people, people who have left the church and lost all of their faith do that. And I think it’s unfortunate. And I think that there are maybe some people who haven’t lost their faith, but who have lost their faith in the church, who maybe also do that. And I, I think we have a greater responsibility than that, to tell the positive story rather than focusing on the negative story.
[40:11] Steve Reed: Right. And, you know, unfortunately, there’s, there’s parts of the story that that just are negative, you know, there’s, there are difficult things to talk about. Like we, we, we’re, we’re talking about very difficult things here. You cover a lot of them. They’re very challenging, but there has to be a place for us to have these discussions. And as long as the discussions are had in, in, in a way that uh that is faithful, I think, they can be very productive, you know. Uh, and they may not turn out the way that we think they’re going to. We always have to be open to the fact that that things may not be shaped in the way we thought they would be at the on the other side, and that that’s still OK, you know, but there, there, there are some, oh go ahead.
[40:54] Michelle: Well, yeah, let me ask you, because you, you said two words that I kind of want to clarify or push back on a little bit, because you said as long as they’re faithful. And I think that’s a tricky concept as well, because different people have different, um, definitions of that. So I think maybe, maybe I would replace that word with humble and sincere and seeking. Maybe that’s, you know, so we’re. Not judging where the border is of what’s allowed and what’s not. You know, if we’re humble and sincere. And then also, when you said it can be, um, they don’t, they might not end up where we want, I think that that’s also that question of fear. Like, OK, we can have this conversation as long as, as, like, I don’t feel safe right now. I’m worried about where you might be going. But as long as you’re gonna say something that makes me feel better, then I can manage it, right? And I think that that’s a good thing to recognize also is to let go of our fear. And if we are coming to conversation with humility and sincerity and genuine faith, then we can just trust God to see where. We’re going, we’re going to go. That feeling of fear and unsafety is not from the right source. That is not a gift from God. That is a natural man response. God gives us the spirit of peace and wisdom and insight to know what should be said. And this, this energy just makes everything worse. Whereas the spirit of God moves us forward and the people we’re talking to.
[42:17] Steve Reed: Yeah, thank you for that correction. I think that was an important catch there. So I do think humble is the better word to use there. That makes a lot more sense. Cause, uh, yeah, so you, you, uh, you sum that up really well. But do no harm, that’s important too, because at the end of the day, there, there’s the, the subjects that we cover, but we’re not trying to, we’re not trying to win, you know, I, I think it’s not like a competition where it, it’s like a. If you, if anyone gets a chance, read like the contemporary English version of Romans chapter 14, where it’s talking about people eating meat versus people who are not eating meat that’s offered to the idols. And it makes a very important point. It says, you know, uh, in this translation it says something the effect of Don’t, don’t destroy somebody Christ died for over food. You know what I’m saying? Because you get into these arguments over the Pharisee,
[43:10] Michelle: yeah.
[43:13] Steve Reed: But but going back to these, these hard discussions, so I know we’re kind of going down these tangents, but I wanted to put some of that out there, and I’m, I’m completely sweating bullets. If anyone’s wondering why I’m sweating so much. Where I have an attic office and I’m having air conditioning issues and I am sacrificing, I am sweating so I don’t turn this fan on and ruin your audio. So I’ll endure it. It’s fine the audience.
[43:38] Michelle: We’ve actually been laughing about it because both of us are in attics in 100+ degree weather and both of us have unplugged the air conditioner so we could talk. So both of us, I just, I have the advantage of being female, so I sweat a little more delicately. We are having our, um, sonic conversation. My face is bright red though, so you can see the heat here too. So thank you. I, I guess we can tell the audience, we can both tell the audience, you’re welcome. This was the time we could manage to get together and it’s in the middle of the hottest time of the day on one of the hottest days of the year, and we are here for you. We’re
[44:13] Steve Reed: doing it, make it happen. Well, OK, uh, so anyway, so that, that’s kind of that I’m glad we’re able to talk about some of that a little bit. And, and I know, I know these things are, are super hard, and there’s lots of disagreements, and there’s people all over the map, and I get it. Um, for me personally, just, just talking about my own personal perspective, you know, we all have different paths we’re going on in life, right? And we have to respect each path. That everybody’s on, you know, uh, and I’ve, I’ve got, I’ve got some, some really good friends, just quick shout out to the OG BBC, uh, my buddies, we’re, we’re all fans of you. Uh, it’s just a small group of us guys who text each other, but I gotta give them a shout out. But we’ve, we’ve been having discussions for years, ever since I, I moved away from Vegas. We’ve kept in touch. We’ve texted almost every day for, I don’t know, like almost a decade, um, about All kinds of stuff, just doctrines, scriptures, things, and we’ve all been on these different paths, but um the one thing we’ve always maintained is that you can bring up anything in this group, and You respect everyone else, right? Like we’re all, we, we just, there’s a love for one another, we care about each other, and we have very different views on certain things, but we have the brotherhood, we we have to care for other people, not, not ever see anyone as an opponent per se, or a villain, you know, we’re not, we’re brothers and sisters, we’re not, we’re not villains, and we have this, uh, our time, this time we live in, where this This information is being shouted upon the rooftops. It’s being given to us. There’s a responsibility of what are we gonna do with it? How do you be a faithful person in this day and age when all this stuff is coming at you, you know, I, and I’m using, I’m using faithful in the context of someone who’s trying to have faith in the middle of all this stuff. And, and I think there’s really just Uh, for me, one clear answer, and that is that direct connection with God, because we run the risk of relying too much on the arm of the flesh. There’s been so many times I’ve gone down all these rabbit holes, and the vast majority of them end in the same way. I learned a whole bunch of stuff, but there’s this fork in the road where you have to choose one or the other, and you’re either gonna make a choice based on just your opinion of what you think and how convinced you are. Or you’re going to take it to the Lord and ask him, what, what direction should I go on this. I think one of my favorite, um, guides to use is lecture 6 of the lectures on faith, where it talks about a great deal of the fact that it’s critical for us to have an actual knowledge from God that the course we’re pursuing is agreeable to his will. Long before I ever read the lectures on faith, I had this happen in my life very early on where I was going down the path of a missionary. And I had an experience with God the Father, where He referred to me as sun and was proud of the direction that I was going. And that allowed me to boldly continue forward and plow through any of those difficulties because I knew that the the direction I was taking, that God is smiled upon it. Now, whatever that may mean, there was something there that God wanted me to see and experience. Maybe that was not my ultimate destination. Maybe this is a step in the path, but I think we have to respect that from other people. Even if somebody, it takes them out of the church. Maybe they need, there’s something out there they need to see, because people do circle around, come back, some people never come back. They go off in a different way. But we don’t know the end of people’s stories, but God does. He sees everything, the end from the beginning. He knows all the different possibilities and And I think, you know, you read Alma 29, where Alma says, oh, that we’re an angel. He says all this suffering. He goes, if I could take the trip of God and speak with that Trump, there would be no more sorrow on the face of the earth. He goes, I sin in my wish, cause I’m basically saying that God doesn’t know what he’s doing, and I can do a better job. I could fix everything. I could make it right. So then he catches himself and he goes, No, God is just. He works in justice and judgment, and he gives. To every nation on the earth, the ability to teach his word and truth, all that he sees fit that they should have. And then he, he steps back for a minute and goes, OK, I’m OK with this, you know, I don’t need to control everything and have it all work out the way I need it to, right?
[48:48] Michelle: And I love recognizing. My job, like the outcomes of all of these things is not my job. That’s not my responsibility. It’s not my stewardship, and it’s not within my control. My only job is every day to go, God, what do you want me to do today? And to do my best to do that and be satisfied with my effort letting go of outcome, which I can’t control, right? I think that’s how I interpret that. And I also wanted to respond when you said. You know, some people, some people will leave the church, some people will stay in the church. And I really, I really do think people’s spiritual journey is between them and God. And while I think that people in the church have a tendency to judge with maybe not enough information, you know what I mean? Like everyone who leaves the church is making the wrong decision. Right? And I think again, that can go both ways, where some people who feel like the church is not a good fit for them feel like everyone who stays in the church is making the wrong decision, right? And I, I think it’s important for people on both sides to recognize and respect another person’s walk with God. And we can all see in other people where they’re off base according to. Hour, right? But that’s just not helpful. It’s, what is it, the Pollyetta line, if you look for the bad in people, you will surely find it. Like, congratulations. You were able to find fault with someone. Like, is that the, the harder challenge and the far more worthy challenge is being able to find the good in others, being able to respect their, their walk, being able to. Pray for them with full charity and engaging them, we engage with them without contention, right? That’s what I think we’re trying to accomplish. So anyway, I just, I want, I, I always feel like it goes back and forth. We just all, it’s so easy for us as humans to just sit and judge everyone else while they’re judging us and I think that that’s what we’re being called to try to get beyond. Yeah, as we can because it can be really hard.
[50:42] Steve Reed: Yeah, I think we can make a conscious choice to allow other people to speak and if, you know, we may think they’re completely wrong, but to, uh, to, to have a, I think disagreements are great. I love debating, but in a friendly way, right? There’s no reason you need to get ugly about things and resort to ad hominem attacks and start getting into, because so, yeah, we, we can agree to disagree on certain things. You could say, well, let me explain to you my position. You know, and here’s your position. OK, cool, and these are hard things to reconcile, but let’s, let’s keep talking as we both go on our journey. Um, so how did this, how did this article come about? Why did, why did I write this? Um, sometime around uh they they around 2015, just going back to my notes, was when I, I started writing some things down, and I remember the very first observation I made, and it was, uh, it was concerning the phrase Lord of hosts in Jacob 2. and why that stuck out to me is a couple years before this. Uh, I had made a comment on my blog about uh Abram Gileotti’s website, uh, at the time, and I said, hey, this is a really great resource. I just kind of come across it. I didn’t really know who he was before that, and, uh, And so I posted about it and he commented on it cause I had said the site is kind of ugly, you know, it’s like forgive it for looking. So he was, hey, you’re you’re criticizing my website. You think you can help me with it? So, uh, we worked together, we rebuilt the website, um, and we’ve worked on several projects, but he gave me some of his books. He just sent me 4 of his books, and he goes, here. He goes, it takes about 2 years of, of dedicated study before Isaiah really starts to open up to you and everything. And, and so I read that. Then I went and bought the literary patterns of Isaiah, and I was reading through these things and I’m like, oh wow, the, you know, this is really good stuff, and I was noticing these keywords and these word links and everything, and And so as I’m reading the Book of Mormon, I’m noticing these things. Well, I just kind of read the Book of Mormon on a loop, and I kept, and over the years I’d hit Jacob 2:30, and I was like, there’s just something weird about that verse. It’s just weirdly worded. It doesn’t make a lot of sense. If you look at some of the elements of that verse and compare it with other verses in the scriptures, it’s very, very unique. And verse
[53:09] Michelle: 28. Let me, let me just tell people it’s verse 28, I believe that has Lord of hosts, is that right?
[53:15] Steve Reed: Yeah, it’s actually within 5 verses, it’s 6 times in a class.
[53:19] Michelle: 000 yeah, that’s right. OK, I guess that’s just the first one. So it says it multiple times.
[53:24] Steve Reed: OK. This is the highest concentration of that phrase in the Book of Mormon. The Lord of hosts is mentioned in Isaiah. I think there’s only 3 other places in the Book of Mormon where that phrase is even mentioned. By a book of Mormon author. The rest are like, uh, Isaiah, maybe Malachi. There’s some other ones in there, but I noticed, OK, 6 times. Yeah, verse 28,
[53:49] Michelle: verse 29, verse 30, twice in verse 32, and then again in verse 33. So all of a sudden, boom. Yeah. And that’s cool that because Abraham Giliati does talk a lot about textual analysis, right? Literary analysis and finding the word links. That’s a big part of his approach to understanding Isaiah, which I think that’s part of why I was drawn to him, because that’s how I I already studied the scriptures and how they opened up to me often. And so, yeah, so I’m really, I, I, I never, you’re the only one I have, I have, I mean, that I’m aware of who really jumped on the Lord of hosts part of Jacob too. That’s, that’s a big part of your analysis of it, which isn’t something that I’ve seen other people focus on. It’s not something that I thought to focus on. So it was that’s OK. I’m glad you pointed out how many times it is right there. Yeah,
[54:35] Steve Reed: 6, by far the highest concentration. So why, why that? Well, What is the Lord of hosts mean? So I, I already knew what the Lord of hosts means. It means essentially the commander of the armies of heaven. And when the Lord is using that title and aiming it as his own people. We already see the context of the sermon. God is not happy with them, but he’s talking about destruction, and he’s, he’s now speaking to them. Yeah. So what I started to realize, I was like, this is, this is kind of him laying out the details of a covenant curse. He’s now speaking to them, not as they’re loving God, but as the commander of the armies of heaven, threatening them. And so I’m like, whoa, this is, this is heavy, you know, this is something you would recognize. So I’m, I’m looking at the three mentions, and I’m seeing right in the middle, including it is, it centers on the word otherwise. And so I just keep looking, looking, and it’s right there, and I’m so I I started thinking to myself, OK, and I was like, oh. I’m not like an expert with grammar, but um maybe I need to just look into what the word otherwise means a little bit more. And and frankly,
[55:48] Michelle: that’s like centered place and there’s another part of the textual analysis in Isaiah, that is the chiasm, right? That’s uh, that is a primary place. So to have 3 Lord of hosts, otherwise 3 Lord of hosts is saying, pay attention to this, especially because it’s a big buildup.
[56:04] Steve Reed: Yeah, well, you’ve got, you got parallelisms, you got, you got chaisms, of course, but you have, you have them because they didn’t have punctuation, and they wrote in these poetic styles because and, and imagine if we had this in Hebrew and we just had the letters and and what they, they added up to and all the different things and um how interesting that would be, but still some of that stuff bleeds through into the English text. We get these. These little bullet points, you know, these, these almost these little neon signs drawing our eyes saying, pay attention, there’s something here. Well, you know, this went on for about 2 years before I decided to write the article, but I started picking up on other things. I did, I did kind of an analysis into the word. Otherwise, I look up every single instance of the word otherwise in the Book of Mormon, there were 13 of them. And they were all used in the exact same way. They followed this pattern where you have a clause where you have this um uh this this intended consequence, and then otherwise, this negative consequence of what would happen if the first thing wasn’t true, right? And
[57:13] Michelle: otherwise cursing. This is your choice, right?
[57:17] Steve Reed: Essentially, and, and it’s not always cursing, but it, it would be like the intended thing, like, look, if you do not eat your dinner, you know, you can eat your dinner, otherwise you don’t get any dessert, right? Yeah,
[57:29] Michelle: you need to eat your dinner, otherwise you’ll go to bed without, you’ll go to bed hungry, right? Like
[57:32] Steve Reed: that’s gonna happen. And then what the consequence will be if this doesn’t happen, essentially, and And so there’s this, this kind of pattern. Now that doesn’t mean that just because this pattern is used in every single other instance, that that it has to be that way in there, but the grammar does check out and it actually fits with the overall narrative of the Book of Mormon if, you know, if you look at it one way. Now, I called this a proposed interpretation of Jacob 230. It’s, I didn’t say it’s, this is now the new official interpretation of Jacob 230. I am trying to be a little bit humble here. And I have made edits to it over the years. People have made comments. Um, Jeff Lindsey reached out and he wrote a rebuttal to this, just focusing on the otherwise thing and cause I called it a a conjunctive adverb, which, um, it could technically be a conjunctive adverb if if this is the context that’s being used. But I thought that was a little bit, I thought his point was, was OK about it being a little too presumptuous, so I just called it a Uh, it’s just, uh, it creates a conjunction and a clause, which it does. Um, I, I don’t know that you can argue
[58:36] Michelle: that’s pause and let the people know that his essay is not filled with grammar terms like
[58:42] Steve Reed: it’s not conjuncive clause
[58:42] Michelle: away thinking that that’s what we’re going to get into. It’s not, it’s, in fact, I loved your response to the criticism that you included in your essay because and that. It, it again, I’m always saying how important it is to engage and to hit back and forth on our ideas, because his, um, criticism allowed you to respond, which really strengthened your argument in an important way. And I, I really noticed that.
[59:13] Steve Reed: I told him I was
[59:13] Michelle: I was glad he criticized you and I was glad you responded, and I was glad you put both of them in your piece.
[59:19] Steve Reed: Yeah, he was right to challenge me. He goes, Hey, you said you were open. To change your mind, if, you know, and, and so I took a couple of months to think about it. Um, I, I sat and I did a bunch of thinking, and I, uh, I really tried to come up with uh an answer that would, would hit all of his, his criticisms, but he didn’t touch any other part of it. He seemed to think that the main, the main thing with this was the meaning of the word otherwise and that how you could just play with the grammar and that changes everything, but it’s actually not.
[59:50] Michelle: No, I disagree with that. In fact, I, I want to read some of my favorite parts from it because you hit on some of my favorite things. Oh,
[59:59] Steve Reed: what did you what did you like about,
[1:00:01] Michelle: let me just, so I read it a couple of times because I read it a while ago, you know, and then I’ve gone over it again. Um, just, just to talk to you. And every single time I’ve read it, it’s like when I read this sentence, it’s like this electric like, yes, thank you, you know, because, because a lot of people don’t hit on what I felt like you centered and made primary, which is versus 31 through 35. In fact, just a little while ago, I had a conversation with a polygamist and I asked him about Jacob 2 versus 31 through 35. And he didn’t even know what they said. Yes, verse 30 memorized, but didn’t, couldn’t, like, had to get his Book of Mormon to look at those other verses.
[1:00:39] Steve Reed: Good, great guest, by the way, great having someone like that to explain.
[1:00:43] Michelle: Yeah, I like hearing the different perspectives. But when I read, so I’m gonna read just this little section, you said Lehi emphasized that it was a divine commandment from God, from this is from the introduction before you even get into the arguments, you know, a divine. from the Lord for men to have only one wife and no concubines, and you cite Jacob 2:27 34 and Jacob 356. In the midst of an extensive sermon, both the Lord himself and Jacob unequivocally condemned the practice of having many wives and concubines, denounce it as gross crimes, sins, iniquities, whoredoms, fornications, lasciviousness, filthiness, and abominations. The sermon also vividly portrays the Found suffering and harm inflicted on women and children due to this practice. However, there is a conventional interpretation of Jacob 2:30 that suggests an exception to the Lord’s commandment of monogamy, proposing that the Lord might command men to marry multiple wives and concubines, even though he acknowledges that it breaks the wives’ hearts and causes sorrow, mourning, sobbing, and deep wounds. And that is the point that I’ve made that for me, that is, that’s what really woke me up and alerted me is those, the reason that God forbids it is the hearts of the women, because God loves God’s daughters. God cares about women and women’s experiences and children. And, and I’ve, you know, forever, I’ve said, If God said, OK, if I want a lot of babies to be born, then all of a sudden I don’t care about the women anymore. Right? That’s, that seems to be that interpretation. And the fact that you centered that from the very beginning was thrilling to me because I feel like a lot of people miss that. And I do feel like it should be centered. I, I, I think that is the primary focus. Of God in giving this command. So it should be the primary focus of everybody interpreting this. And I’ve never seen anyone include that. And I’ve never seen a polygamist or a pro polygamy member of the church include that and explain why God all of a sudden doesn’t care about women. Like the way that women are treated in sex. 1:32 versus the Book of Mormons, specifically these chapters of Jacob, but the entire Book of Mormon shows it’s a different God, right? And so I think that this is a central port part of this, of this, um, whole discussion and should be always centered. And we can look at our history and know every single time polygamy was lived. It did pierce the women’s hearts with deep wounds, right? It did devastate women in every possible way on every possible level. And it’s, it’s frustrating to hear people say, Well, monogamy is hard too, or you, you know, it’s like, no, let’s pay attention to the word of God. This is what God says. He gives a command. He tells us why. You’re trying to find a loophole to get out of the command, then Figure out the reason. Show me where polygamy, show me where this polygamy that was authorized. You go on to say, like, if taking multiple wives and concubines is considered a sacred means to have more children under the covenant, why did God repeatedly condemn the practice itself as a gross crime, equating it to whoredom and abomination throughout the 1000 year history of the Nephites, and then this is the part. Does it seem reasonable that the Nephite women and children were so profoundly heartbroken by the men’s practice of taking multiple wives and concubines simply because they lacked authorization? As if authorization is the thing. And would everything have been harmonious if they had indeed been authorized to do so. So profound, so spot on. And that is the question that I want to propose to everyone, and I want them to take it seriously. So, yeah, that, that was the part. You, you go on to say, would there be no sorrow, morning cries, sobbing captivity, or hearts dying pierced with deep wounds if only there were authorization. So, well done. I just want everyone to give a round of applause because of how you centered that. I, I just thought it was profoundly important. That’s my favorite part of the essay every time I’ve read it.
[1:04:50] Steve Reed: Oh, thank you so much. Uh, and, and to me, I’m, I’m glad that you caught on to that cause to me that right there is probably one of the biggest glaring issues with this is, yeah, yeah, it’s oh so if they just had authorization. The women’s hearts wouldn’t have died pierced with deep wounds. Are they that, are they, are they that concerned with authorization? You know what I’m saying? Is it, you know, is Yeah it doesn’t, it doesn’t really, it doesn’t really make any sense. It doesn’t jive, the logic doesn’t really seem to to match up with the with the way this is being portrayed. And I and I thought it was interesting, like the one thing. Uh, I, I noticed was in 2013, when they changed the chapter headings, when they did the new online version and changed it, the very first place I went was to Jacob chapter 2 to read the heading, and they changed it. That was the very first place I went, cause I’d been kind of, I’ve been kind of tracking this for a while. I know I said like 2015, but this verse has puzzled me for a long, long time. And so I wanted to see if maybe they had clarified something at the time. So, I recall, and I think I mentioned that in there that I, I went and I, I looked and yeah, you, I have my old scriptures from a long time ago and you compare them. They pulled out the part about authorization and just said the Nephite men are commanded to have just one wife, which I applaud the church for doing because that’s more accurate to the text and it doesn’t try to read things into, because that language has been used so much about authorization, that’s where it comes from is that chapter heading, and we repeat it over and over again. And so it’s, it’s kind of strange, yeah.
[1:06:37] Michelle: I still find it frustrating. I still am really frustrated because they say the knee fight men. And that’s one of the arguments is that this, this sermon was only to those people hearing it, which is ludicrous. I’ve done an episode on that for anyone, you know, that, like, let’s, let’s go to the trouble of carving these records and passing them down and having them translated. The book for our day, but this, this sermon has nothing to do with us. It was only for those people that are hearing it. It’s a ludicrous case to make. And I think that that’s what they were allowing for in, um, that new chapter heading. So I still found it frustrating. I love going back to the early issues of the Book of Mormon, where it gives us an overview. Of the chapters, and, um, I’ll include one of them in the, in the images so people can see how it, they knew during Joseph’s life, that this was forbidding polygamy, forbidding many wives and concubines for all of God’s covenant people, because it is the law of God. And so that’s, I think we were the most honest back then when we weren’t trying to work it in.
[1:07:38] Steve Reed: Right, that’s a, that’s a very good point. And you can go back and kind of track these things over time. And they’re they’re chapter headings and things. Uh, but I, I’m actually fine with the chapter heading the way it is, because it’s, it’s in the context of it. It says the Nephite man, which is, you know, technically correct too. But the, but then you get into a big problem where the Lord’s talking about replicish who, you know, comes from the Jaredites who were pre-Abraham, you know what I’m saying? And he’s, he’s totally he did not, he did that which was not right in the side of the Lord. He had many wives and concubines. Even in the sermon. Um, it says, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow and heard the morning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yeah, and in all the lands of my people. This is everywhere. It’s not just the Nephite men. It goes all the way back. Like, I don’t know where Riplicish tracks in terms of Abraham cause he’s a descendant of, you know, uh, the brother of Jared and those guys. So I don’t know what point in time, but they were separated from each other, going back to the Tower of Babel. So the Lord says, This was not right among them who had, you know, we don’t know what law they had. We can’t speculate what that was.
[1:08:44] Michelle: We kind of know because God commanded Adam and Eve. God gave the covenant of marriage, clear back with Adam and Eve, that they twain shall. We become one, right? Two people are in a marriage. That is what God established and what God commanded. And I think it’s not, people are always like, Well then, where did polygamy come from? If it’s like, not mysterious to figure out that the natural man can have lust for power, lust for women, right? Men who become The fact that we see throughout so many cultures, powerful men take harems is not a mystery, I don’t think, right? So when we see that the kings, that some of the kings in the among the Jaredites did that same thing, that’s not hard to explain. And, but what you’re pointing out is that there was a known commandment that he was breaking. Clear back at the time of the flood, because that’s the last time they had connection. If, you know, for any of the people making these arguments back at the time of the flood. So we can go back to Adam and Eve and say, oh, where did polygamy start? Oh, the first, um, case we have islamic, Master Mayhan, the, the, um, son of perdition after Kane, right? That’s where it started. And so yeah, I think it’s safe to say it was against God’s commandment that those who do it do not do right in the sight of God, as the Book of Mormon points out, with rebuke and again with King Noah, yeah.
[1:10:09] Steve Reed: Oh yeah, oh yeah, of course, Kingo. Well, you know, in listening to your previous guest, uh, Benjamin, very interesting guest, I’m, I’m not trying to like pick on him because he’s not here to defend himself or anything, but he said one thing that really caught me. He, you were talking about polygamy in the scriptures, and he goes, I see it everywhere, it’s everywhere, right? And I just thought to myself, that’s, that’s the problem. That’s exactly what the Lord’s talking about. If he is not here to command my this people, if he is going to raise up a righteous branch of his people, he will need to command his people, otherwise, They harken to these things. These are the types of things they listen to and they seek after their own uh interpretations and their own, like it’s just the the natural man just goes to to those types of things. You look at all throughout history, as soon as some powerful person gets into, what do they do? They start looking for little girls, they start going after the women. It’s like once they have that position of power, that’s why the kings of Israel say you don’t multiply wives, you don’t multiply gold and silver, because those two things are gonna corrupt you, and you’re gonna be a horrible king. Well, well, what happens in a society where we don’t have a king anymore and we’re all subject to God. Individually. We’re all under a covenant where we’re equal before God and we have to, you know, to the man, we have to be loyal to God. And we, we are the kings and queens. I mean, even if you look in the temple, we covenant to be kings and queens. Well, you go back to the kings of Israel. What were they told not to do? Well, if it’s good for those kings, why is it not good for these kings? You know what I’m saying? And so
[1:11:42] Michelle: I love I love again. That you’re centering um desire as the big as the part of this because I think Jacob one is left out too often. Jacob 1:15. Right, where it tells us that they were beginning to indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of all desiring many wives and concubines, right? And also Solomon. And then we get into, um, 32, let’s see, I mean, Jacob 2, there was something I was going to read about that. Oh, that these things, if I, I think that verse 23 is critical. Like these people begin to wax in iniquity. So before they were waxing in iniquity for desiring many wives and concubines, right? And then it says, they’re. to act in iniquity, for they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms because of the things which were written concerning David and Solomon. So the first thing was they desired, right? They had the desire, which Jesus defines as adultery. That’s, that’s lust, right? A married man desiring other women is lust straight up. So then the next step is they start to rest the scriptures to try to use the old stories to justify themselves in that. And then the next piece that I think is fascinating is, um, Doctor in the Covenants 132, and I can’t remember is it verse 53. I have to get there really fast so I can tell you the exact right there. Yeah. But it gives us the reason that, um, that it’s a well, so it starts out saying, why is this justified, right? Like, like you just you allowed them, so clearly there’s a desire going on and why did they get? Hey, that’s not fair. Why did they get to do it and we can’t? It’s basically what they’re saying about what they’re claiming about these Old Testament stories that they’re not understanding, according to Jacob too, right? And then there’s verse 61, yeah. And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood, if any man espouse a virgin and desire to espouse another, that’s the reason for it right there.
[1:13:40] Steve Reed: If you just, just if you desire, if you desire. You’re good. Then,
[1:13:45] Michelle: so we’re we’re told in the Book of Mormon that whole process of what happens, they had this lustful desire which in and of itself was a sin, right? Because of the desire they rest the scriptures, right? And they justify by resting the scriptures. Because of the things which were written concerning David and Solomon, which are the these things that they are beginning to engage in because of their abomination and so it’s fascinating to see that mirrored back perfectly it’s almost like another chiasm with verse 1 and verse 61 of um. of section 132, right? The, the,
[1:14:22] Steve Reed: I hope that we could look back on this and realize just how true these teachings in the Book of Mormon were and show how they played out in real time exactly as prophesized, right into the the twisting and the resting of scripture and things like that, which leads into a lot of other questions, which leads into a lot of different areas, but Right,
[1:14:42] Michelle: I was just engaging with John Dehlin the other day cause I, cause I, um, keep in touch with him on occasion. He won’t have me on his podcast, which I think, shame on you, John, you need to have me on, or you’re just protecting a narrative.
[1:14:54] Steve Reed: He should have you
[1:14:54] Michelle: on.
[1:14:55] Steve Reed: You got to be able to
[1:14:55] Michelle: talk to me on. But, but one thing I really appreciated that he listened to, I mean, that he, he was fascinated by some of the things I said. I think, you know, that’s how his response sounded. But one thing I pointed out because he was kind of saying. How can you still have like a testimony of the church or the Book of Mormon or that, you know, so I was explaining what my testimony actually is and kind of and and I was just explaining some of the things that I find fascinating about the Book of Mormon that that keep me. Engaged in going, something happened here. There is something really cool going on with the Book of Mormon. And one that I mentioned that I that I hope he appreciated was the perfect parallel between King Noah and Brigham Young. That is amazing. That is amazing, that parallel that we are given. In addition to the fact that the Book of Mormon has so much to say about polygamy, doesn’t say anything about homosexuality. I interpret that to mean that we first need to take the beam out of our own eye before we try to get the motive out of everyone else’s eye, right? Like, let’s clean up the abomination in our own house before we go try to fix the abomination in the rest of the world with our accusations of others. Yeah, you know, anyway, so I think there are things that we can universally agree on, even with some of our harshest critics, when we’re willing to come to these things, honestly, and look at what they really say because the text is powerful. I, I think it’s powerful.
[1:16:19] Steve Reed: You’re absolutely right. Uh, I mean, there’s, we could, we could go on and on about the Book of Mormon, like there’s, there’s so many, so many aspects, you know, of course, and, and, you know, there’s a lot, there’s a lot of legitimate criticism and once you start getting here, the inevitable place you get to is you, you have this, and this is the, this is the main question that I think people who get into this topic eventually come to. How does the church survive? Something like this, like if it’s been gone, have they been lying to us this whole time? Has this been a conspiracy? Do they just not know about it? Does, like, what is going on behind the scenes? And we’re not, we’re not really getting anything from the leaders to explain this, so we’re all left to try to figure this out ourselves, and, and we come to all these different conclusions. So I think, I think what does need to happen at some point. Um, is, and I think maybe there’s people out there they’re trying to figure this out, you know, is, and I don’t think the answers are, are always gonna be in the what we call the historical record, cause there’s, there’s so much stuff all over the place. I mean, it’s hard to make sense of some of it because there’s direct contradictions all over the place of people
[1:17:40] Michelle: doing different things, you know, it’s it’s really hard. There are So many sources that to gain enough mastery of them to feel like you can actually navigate and, and with any degree of confidence is over, it’s really easy to find one source that says one side and think you know everything. But it, it is actually an immense amount of work to gain even a moderate degree of mastery to be able to discuss the sources. In an educated way.
[1:18:03] Steve Reed: And it’s like it’s like having a uh it’s jumping into a ball pit of Russian nesting dolls, and you don’t know where the end of anything is, you know what I’m saying? You’re like, oh, I found the last one, and then you open up and there’s like 50 more and they’re like, how, how far is this gonna go? Oh. Well, and people just, they lose, they lose their mind and they just, they give up. And that’s why I think this is why we come back to what is, what is really the anchor of reality? Like, yes, we have plenty of stuff out in the world to wrestle with. Uh, I don’t think any, any civilization in human history has had as much access to just straight up information about their own faith. I mean, yes, of course, the internet and Google and everything like that, but just about the history of your own faith and and how recent so a lot of this stuff really is in these journals that we have and all these different things. Anyway, that’s, that’s a whole other bag of can of worms, uh, but.
[1:19:02] Michelle: Yeah. And let me just mention, that’s another thing that I said to John Dehlin, that, that, like, I don’t need to say that. I just, I just, it’s interesting that I just had this conversation where I said, for me, when the scriptures tell us that all these things will be shouted from the house tops, right? And that all of the hidden Things of darkness will come to light. That’s another profound, um, prophecy that I think we are living through right now. I think that’s exactly what is happening. We are told that nothing that is hidden shall everything that is hidden will be revealed. And we are seeing that happen in really amazing, profound ways. I think a lot of us are part of that.
[1:19:35] Steve Reed: And we didn’t, but I, but I think a lot of us didn’t expect that it would kind of Include us in the midst of the people we, you know, we think, oh, well, the truth’s gonna be shout out on the rooftops and all you people are gonna realize how wicked you’ve been and it’s gonna justify us. And it’s like, it says the truth’s gonna be shouted on the rooftops, but Didn’t necessarily talk about what the, the fallout of that was going to be. And that goes into the whole, but I thought, you know, type these suppositions that we have. So that’s where we really have to take a step back and go, OK, well, what do I really know about God, right? Like, what, what do I really know about his character and, and the purpose of this life and what we’re trying to do? And and what often what happens is, um, In my I was about 1718, I had to completely reconstruct my faith from scratch. Like, I, I got a piece of paper and I wrote believe and know on either side, and I wrote a line down the middle. And only 3 things were on the no side. And I, I said, I know because I would say that I know as, as I know the sun is shining in the sky, and that I’m aware and conscious. That those are the three things that I know, and they were, they were kind of interesting things, but they were very powerful. They were powerful enough to drive, but everything else was on the other side. Uh, Joseph Smith, the Bible. Uh, the Book of Mormon, Jesus
[1:20:55] Michelle: as
[1:20:55] Steve Reed: my Savior, you know,
[1:21:00] Michelle: yeah, and I’ve, I think that’s a process many of us go through. And the only things you actually can know is what you have experienced, right? I think even President Nelson said the days are will come when nobody can live on borrowed light, which we’ve been told for a long time. time. I think that’s always been the case. I just think it’s ramping up a lot now. And, and all of, I think it’s what the Book of Mormon talks about. I, I love Second Nephi 228, 28 and 29, but where it talks about the, uh, he did his build upon a sandy foundation, tremble lest he shall fall. All of that stuff. The only things that are Rock or what are on that I know category. I know this for myself. Everything else is sound. That’s just the reality of how this works.
[1:21:43] Steve Reed: It’s true. And and I thought I don’t think we understand that parable, you know, and, and, uh, but, but it is, it’s, it’s, it’s revelatory direct experiences with God. It’s the only way and and I mean, when you look at it objectively, wouldn’t wouldn’t you say that that is far more valuable than anything you could find in some book or some journal or something that could be questionable or could be over here. When, and I know to a skeptical person, they’ll say, well, what, what does that mean, direct relate? Maybe I’ve never had that before, maybe. I think it starts from a very simple place, like God, are you there? Do you know me? And, and just the doctrine of Jesus Christ. You know, Jesus Christ didn’t say, it is my doctrine for you to dig into all the weeds of everything. He says, you know, come unto me, come unto Christ and be perfected in him. Come and repent of your sins, acknowledge that and just come knowing that you need a savior. And that’s the thing, in order for for Jesus to save you, you have to be in a position where you know you need saving. Like he’s already done the work. He’s done the work, right? He’s, he’s reaching out with his hands, but we have to choose to like take those hands, cause if we don’t, he’s not gonna compel us into salvation. He can’t. He can’t save us in our sins, right? You know? And
[1:23:00] Michelle: so maybe if we take this down to a level for people who, um, I don’t know. Maybe, maybe because I talked about John Dehlin, some people who don’t have faith in God, you know, who have,
[1:23:12] Steve Reed: they’re part of the audience here as well, yeah.
[1:23:15] Michelle: Right, right. And I think, and see, I think that, um, I think that there’s just a process of learning to listen. And I don’t think we need to define the author of that voice as specifically in words that might be triggering to some people or loaded for some people, right? That it like, like John Dehlin, I, I guess we’re talking about him. Sorry, John, I hope that’s OK with you. But he I’ve heard him talk about the inspiration to start his podcast, like knowing he was supposed to do that, when he went and bought the microphone and went and bought the camera, right? And or the mic, I guess he just was the microphone at first. And knowing that he was supposed to do this, and I, I, I think at that point, I don’t know if he believed in God, right? But that, that guiding, and, and so to me, You know what, I know I might get in trouble for this, but John Dehlin may very well be carrying out exactly what he’s supposed to. I think that he is part of all of this things being shouted from the rooftops, right? He’s, and all of us are doing it the best we can in our imperfect stumbling way. But I think that we need to make room for everybody. And so I guess the, the thing I would say is, if, if there’s, if, if talking about Jesus isn’t meaningful at this point, right? Just learning to go, what is truth? What is the best thing that I can do for myself, for my family, for those in my, um, community, for the world, right? Like just learning to be, um, as Jordan Peterson would say, aiming up, right? To really try to get centered, humble, um, still, and, and learn just to listen and learn to tap in to that, what I would call divine guidance. Because I do think it’s a practice. That’s one thing I really value about the church, is that it teaches us from infancy to listen. It then sets up borders of what boundaries of what we’re allowed to listen to. But it does start out teaching us to listen to that inner guide, the still small voice that we talk about, right? The Holy Ghost. I think that’s a concept that I wish more people would carry with them in whatever direction they go. And recognize that because that divine guidance always does at its best, lead us toward humility, truth, peace, honoring others, charity, right? So that’s what I would say, like, wherever you are, you could at least hopefully start grabbing on to that and then see where it takes you if you’re doing it very genuinely and not trying to manipulate. And, and maybe I took that direction that people won’t recognize, but I think it’s important to recognize what, what you can find to land on if you deconstruct all the way down, which I kind of have done in my life. You know, it’s, it can be challenging. I couldn’t, I couldn’t lose God because I knew God. I’d had too many experiences with God. But I got down to where the only thing I knew is there is something that is incredibly good. Knows everything, all loving, all powerful, that is good. God is good. God exists and God is good. It’s about where I got to at my hardest point. And I know some people go further than that.
[1:26:30] Steve Reed: I started there too. I, I nearly lost my life and some, uh, I was, I was saved by something that I didn’t know and understand that was more powerful than than what was uh. As you say, trying to destroy me. Um, it was a, it was a very, it was a very powerful experience. It was, and I’m not saying it was a very powerful feeling. It was a powerful experience. I’m not gonna use the word feeling cause it, it goes beyond that. But, um, but I was, I was lost and in pain for so many years, crying to God, reading scripture saying, if you believe, you know, he’ll answer you. Knock and he shall open. Well, I knocked, I pounded, I tried to kick that door down. And nothing, silence for years and years and years to where I’m, I’m like, what am I doing anymore? And so it got to the point where I, I was in the darkest place a human being could possibly be, you know, and, uh, and there’s, there’s a whole story there, but, um, but for me, It it all began with this simple knowledge uh of that there’s there’s actually something there, something to hold on to. Like I, I still know what it feels like, and it, it’s kind of haunting to this day. I know what it feels like the moment hope disappears, and the numbness that follows, when there’s just nothing, there’s no anger, there’s no sadness, there’s no frustration, where it just leaves, and it’s complete numb. And there’s no more will to live, there’s no more will, there’s there’s nothing, you know, and there’s, there’s a dark place, but you look at the vision of the tree of life, isn’t it amazing that That in order to get to the tree, There’s this mist of darkness. Like you have to go through it. You can’t reach the tree without the mist of darkness. It’s, it’s part of the construct that’s there. And I think a lot of times we just think we can just walk up to this tree and start plucking the fruit, and we’re all happy go lucky, but then we find ourselves in the darkness, but maybe Maybe we weren’t eating the fruit of the tree to begin with. Maybe we hadn’t even started on the path. I think if you find yourself in the midst of darkness, that’s actually maybe the sign that you found the path that you’re, you’re like, it it could potentially be a sign that you’re you’re on the way. You know what I’m saying?
[1:28:57] Michelle: In the midst of darkness, you can’t even always find the iron rod or the straight narrow path, right? Because the mists of darkness make it so you don’t even know which way to reach out or which way to start going. And, but I do think there is something in that example of Lehi crying out to the Lord saying, OK, God, show me the way, show me the path. And, you know, and like, there’s something profound about that, but that’s the first step to even being able to find the path toward the tree. But I do want to talk about, because both you and I are in this position of, um, Seeing the truth about our difficult history, right? And I, I like seeing that polygamy is abomination straight up, always unequivocally without exception, without caveat. And, um, and I believe that we’re on the same page about Joseph Smith. Is that correct? Have you delved into the, the question of Joseph? Oh
[1:29:49] Steve Reed: yeah, um, I’ve, yeah, that I, I read the original Joseph Fought Polygamy, I think a few years after it was published, I found it online and I, I read that a long, long time ago and I actually downloaded the PDFs in it. They’ve been sitting in my, my Dropbox for years and years, and so I, I was like, wow, what, what an interesting theory, you know, and so. I’ve, I’ve read through all these. At one point I had about 5 different theories, um, of how things could have played out, you know. Um, I will say I, I lean in a direction, but I leave plenty of room open to be convinced of Of whatever, you know, future information might might turn out. I, I do have a witness from from God I feel in my personal journey that, that, uh, the first vision, uh, occurred. Joseph was given these gifts and blessings to do things. For me, right around the martyrdom, it gets super fuzzy, and I think it does for a lot of people, and it’s hard to really tell what’s there, um. I, I, I honestly, I can’t say like in my column of believe and know, I can’t say that I know one way or the other about where Joseph Smith was with God at the end of his life and, and what was going on there. Um, I take, I take an approach, the same approach I do with like King David and King Solomon. I love Psalms and Proverbs. They were written by guys who did very terrible things. But yet Jesus himself, you know, quotes from them and and acknowledges them and talks about David and, you know, son of David and things like this. And so I, I have a, I have a great deal of, of mercy in my heart for people who, who God has used in various ways, cause I’m, I’m a sinful man just like anybody else, and I know God’s used me multiple times throughout my life with my family, with other people, and, um, Uh, he uses flawed things to do his work, and so, uh, I’m just, I’m still learning and listening, and I, I, I’ve dove into all the different materials. I would love to, I would love to come out and put a flag in the ground and say 11 way or the other. Um, you know, I, I, I look at a man who, who said one thing his entire life and was consistent in his words. And but then you have other people saying that he had done other things, right? And to me, you know, it comes down to who lied, cause we know, we know a massive amount of people conspired to lie. The official position is a massive, well, not a massive, but a a significant group of people conspired to keep uh polygamy a secret, and and so they put statements out, they did everything. So our official position is that Um, the leaders of our church, Joseph Smith included, uh, lied, along with, uh, every other one of the, the figures of the church. And then there’s another narrative where, um, well, he was telling the truth, but other people lied, but those people could not have been liars. They, they couldn’t be lying, right? And so cause, but there’s there’s a lot, I think there’s a lot more, and there’s a lot more documents and there’s a lot of things and so. But then there’s edits to the journals, there’s, there’s manipulation of the history, there’s things going on, and it, it just muddies the water so much. And so, I haven’t, uh, despite everything I’ve learned on it, it’s, I still leave open some potential possibilities, and, um, I know that various people would, would disagree with me on, on some of those things, but I I’m, I’m not gonna come out and say one way or another, it’s just, it’s a very difficult, uh, difficult thing. So what I do, this is, this is where I’ve gone, is I go back to what I believe was said the most correct book on earth. The Book of Mormon, in terms of the precepts. And if you look at the precepts of this book, one of the precepts is that having many wives and concubines constitutes wickedness and abominations, both the desiring of it and the direct. Obtaining of them. And this is something that God frowns upon in the land of Jerusalem, among the Nephites, in all the lands of his people, even back in the days of the Jaredites. And you just start adding this up and looking in these things, and I think we were cursed as a church for not listening to the Book of Mormon. And maybe that’s one of the reasons we got into this problem to begin with is we weren’t listening to what the Book of Mormon was saying. And instead, We weren’t
[1:34:31] Michelle: to its precepts, yeah. Yes,
[1:34:33] Steve Reed: we started to justify it and we go into the very same thing it warned us about. But, you know, 2 years goes by. I, uh, I put this together, and before I posted this, I searched all over the place, and maybe I’m just a terrible researcher, but before I published this, I could not find one example where anyone had challenged the interpretation of this verse. So I was very like I, I couldn’t find it anywhere. I mean, maybe I thought
[1:35:04] Michelle: Rock did in his, no, yours was the first one explicitly about this verse dedicated. I, I will agree with that. Not all of the bigger questions. It was this verse. Yes, you’re probably right.
[1:35:16] Steve Reed: The context of this essay. Into the subject of. I, I specifically did not go there because I do not feel, uh, you’re doing a great job with everything. There’s a lot of people who are doing research. I just felt like I care about the Book of Mormon, and I care about what’s true. And I felt like over the course of two years, I wasn’t like trying to research this first. I just kept coming back over it and something else would come up. And like these little things were just being dropped into my lap. And after a while, it just got bigger and bigger and bigger. And I, and then Then it just started to dawn on me. I was like, we’re reading this verse completely wrong, and I couldn’t find anyone else who had Come up, I’m not saying I’m the first person to ever think about this, but I just couldn’t find anything. And I was like, somebody should, I’m gonna publish this and just see what other people have to say. Maybe I’m missing something. So this is kind of my personal peer review. I just put it out there. And um and I actually got, I got contacted by some very interesting uh people. One of them, uh, Don Bradley several years ago contacted me about it, and it turns out we had both been studying Abram’s, uh, some of Abraham’s books, and around the same time, we had apparently come to some of the same conclusions. And he’s, he’s like, where did you get these ideas from? And I was like, these are just from my notes. Like, I, I haven’t seen anyone make these arguments. I’m sure people have. I’m sure somebody went and looked up what Ra up Seed and realized that in the Book of Mormon, there’s only one other place where Raise Up Seed is mentioned in First Nephi 7:1 and 2, where they’re specifically commanded to raise up seed, but monogamously, you know, it’s So it’s like, well, why does raise up sea mean polygamy? It, it doesn’t just read verse 25 and yeah, so anyway, the, the article lays it all out, but that was what was surprising to me. So the main reason I just felt like it’s, we should, we should be dedicated to what’s true. We should waste and wear out our lives to bringing out of darkness into the light all of the things that are true. And if, and I’m like, OK, I’m not a, I’m not a genius, I’m not an expert. I’m not this, these are just things I found, and I’m just gonna put them out there if anyone finds them useful. But as the years have gone by, Um, and they, some of these ideas have been challenged, and they can still be challenged in the future. I invite anyone, hey, if I’m wrong, I don’t want to be leading people down the wrong way, but the logic checks out, and maybe I don’t have the interpretation 100% correct. Maybe you could play with these things a little bit, but it is very clear. The one thing that you can take away is the conventional interpretation of Jacob 2:30, that is even published on The the church website you can find somewhere in little articles and things. The interpretation that this has anything to do with polygamy is, is not correct, that this is.
[1:38:06] Michelle: And I was thrilled that Don Bradley was willing to admit that on my podcast. Yeah,
[1:38:11] Steve Reed: that was, that was good to see him, him talk about that. And and I’m not saying, I’m not saying Don endorses my essay or all of my conclusions or anything like that.
[1:38:23] Michelle: I think there’s many things. Yeah. Right. I just want to talk about the decision to continue in the church, because so many people, including John Dehlin, but people on every side, say, like, like, first of all, I get falsely accused of leading people out of the church, which I, I disagree with adamantly, right? But, but then the question arises. What did you say?
[1:38:47] Steve Reed: I, I disagree with that as well. I think that’s I understand why someone would say that, um, Benjamin mentioned that as well recently, um, but I, I understand why people would say that, but I don’t.
[1:39:01] Michelle: I think that their challenge is that they think that if then black and white thinking, if this, then the church can’t be true, which also goes in reverse. They’re saying the church is, is true. Therefore, this can’t be true. So they’re not even willing to look at evidence or look at, right? They have their conclusion baked in, and so they’re not even willing to engage honestly. And I don’t view it that way at all. And I have my reasons, but I want to first let you talk about your navigating. Activity and continued faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and participating in the church, where that, you know, our church where we, um, access the gospel of Jesus Christ, why you think that is still valid, why that’s your decision, and why you think it makes sense. And then I can tell some of my thoughts afterward.
[1:39:48] Steve Reed: Oh, excellent question. This, yeah, this one, wow, there’s there’s there’s a lot of background I can give to this, but I will keep it, try to keep it as short as possible, um. The reason I stay a member of the church has everything to do with the experiences I’ve had with God, uh, and just my study of the scriptures, um, more so this than the study of church history. I mean, yeah, there’s, you read the study of church history, read the study of scriptures, and you see that that human beings have left their finger and toe prints all over everything. It’s, it’s very challenging, right? But I had I had some very unusual experiences in my own life growing up, and And those um Those contrasted with some uh some other very interesting experiences that, that really led me to pursue God. And to and to believe what the scriptures were saying, because I was experiencing some things that I was reading in the scriptures. And so I’m like, OK, this, these were written by someone who knew some these these people knew something. And so I followed the path. There’s the path in the Book of Mormon laid out by Jesus, you know, by by these, these men who wrote these things, and there were these expectations that if you came unto God. And you believed in him, and you just remove these obstacles and and try to come to God and and in a lowly heart, that you would be answered and you would receive a remission of your sins. And, and these things happen to me. And so, I was so grateful to belong to this church, and I had these scriptures that made this possible for me. And then I saw it happening to other people who I was teaching. And as I went through life, I saw the miracle of God working in the people through what what I was sharing, what we were teaching, what we’re talking about and and these things happening and And the the more that I deepened my study and began exploring and and the path that God was leading me down, I, I knew that this course that I’m going down is agreeable to God, and so I’ve I’ve continued to pursue that, of course. Now, Because of the scriptures, Because of the prophecy of Isaiah, which Jesus commanded us to study and read, and when you combine Isaiah with the Book of Mormon, and you, you dive into his words, and you prayerfully study, and, and you begin to view the world through this lens that the Book of Mormon and Isaiah create, which is perfect for our time. Uh One of the conclusions, one of the things I’ve seen through this, is that all is not well in Zion, as we think. And that’s concerning, but you know what, all has not been well in Zion for a long, long time. If we do not have Zion, we’re in a state of some kind of apostasy in some way, shape or form, and that has been pretty much par for the course all throughout human history. You look at the Book of Mormon, rising and falling. They’ll get a really corrupt leader who screws a bunch of stuff up. Even when the Nephites are really good, they’re still pretty horrible to the Lamanites. Like, when, you know, when the sons of Mosiah go have this miraculous, there’s a miracle for the whole community. They’re like, we want to go teach the Lamanites, and the Nephites are like, how about we go into their lands and destroy all of them before they come into like the wicked murderous things. Like that’s what ultimately destroyed their civilization is doing that thing. Now they were being attacked, but they were always being attacked. So anyway, Um, I know there’s a lot of complexities, and it seems like a vast oversimplification to just say I just sweep a bunch of things over the rug. No, I wrestle with every single thing. I listen to everybody. I listen to other people. I hear all of the concerns and things, but I also have this, this personal um relationship with God. With him and my path and just the simple ministering to people and serving people, and living a prayerful life, and just living that’s, that, that complexity on the other, or the simplicity on the other side of complexity. Like, I started out very simple. I dove into all the complexity, but I’ve arrived at a place, uh, in my journey where I found a simplicity on the other side of it, where I’ve returned to a lot of these basic principles through The crucible of doubt, through the furnace of affliction, through the dark night of the soul. And they, these some of these simple things just speak to me in a completely different way. The the experience is, is visceral, it’s real. And um I, I have my eyes as open as I can to see that things, things are not, not right. And I’ve Do you remember when they first had a birthday party for the president of the church, Gordon B. Hinckley. It was in like the late 90s, I think. We were
[1:44:58] Michelle: celebrating. I remember that, but I didn’t know it was the first time. OK. It was,
[1:45:02] Steve Reed: yeah, it was they broadcast the birthday for the president of the church. I never call the president of the church the prophet. I think it’s inappropriate. I, I understand why people do it and they do it themselves or beloved prophet and everything, and I’m not, I’m not trying to like throw shade on anyone, but I’m just trying to say. He’s the president of the church. The church was a religion created with these kind of checks and balances in place that very much mirrored like the constitutional republic that we live in, right? I think there was meant to be more checks and balances. It says in DNC 107, just go read that.
[1:45:35] Michelle: If I was gonna say you can still read them. They’re still there. I just read this week.
[1:45:40] Steve Reed: What does it say about the the 12 if they make any decision in unrighteousness, not by mistake or made in error, they make an unrighteous decision, right? And
[1:45:50] Michelle: they’re equal in authority to the 70 and they’re equal in authority to the state high council, right? And also, one thing that I noticed that’s been totally twisted is that it says in 107 that their decisions in order to carry that weight to be equal to the other quorums need to be made. Unanimously, right? But we’ve twisted that in which what that means is when everybody agrees, we know we’ve made the right decision. It’s been twisted into when the decision is made, you are required to agree with it. Right. Right? That that’s how the core of anyway, and, and, and that, and then that trickles down to the members of the church saying you’re not allowed to disagree with anything that the leaders say because the decision’s been made and right, it becomes very problematic how we’ve twisted our own operating manual.
[1:46:40] Steve Reed: You’re right, and it’s, we have the right, but we’ve done the same thing with our government in the United States. This is just human nature. But here’s, here’s kind of where I stand, OK? Like, Um, my great great great 7th grandfather was He was in the Boston Tea Party, throwing British tea into the harbor, and he fought in the revolution with his 5 sons. And, and I have, my family has fought for this country since the beginning. And like, I’m not one of those people who, whoever the president is, I’m gonna leave the country. I, I just feel like we’ve yielded so much. Why do we just give everything away? Somebody, Satan comes, hey, I have this now, and we go, OK, take that. Well, I’m gonna have this too. OK, take that. I’m not like. I, I’m, I’m one of those people, like, I, I’m not one of these like crazy patriot people. I realized that blood has been shed to give us some type of freedom, and, and no, it hasn’t been perfect, right? We’ve done horrible things as a country. Up to this day, we’re like killing Murray, like expanding this empire, but the core of what this nation is, is good and true, and I’m not going to abandon it, and I feel the same way about the church, but you cannot yield, because when we keep yielding ground, I, I’m, I’m willing to stand for what I believe in if it costs me my membership of the church, my relationship with God. Like, I’m not going to yield. Now does that mean I’m going around telling people to leave church? No, I think, I think people should stay in church and be the change they wish to see in the the world, be the change you wish to see in the church. If you’re like, oh, well, I never hear Jesus mentioned in Saga like I hear Jesus mentioned, we just, today’s meeting with all that. But we’ll go up very testimony on Sunday, go and ask this, go tell the bishop. I would love to give a talk anytime. Invite me.
[1:48:32] Michelle: There’s a huge difference between being the change that you want to see and trying to win. Take the church in your image, right? I love that you said bury your testimony, but when you wear your testimony, don’t get up there and say, none of y’all ever talk about Jesus enough, right? You know, that that’s the, no, no, I, I know you’re not. That’s why I want to clarify it though, because a lot of times, like it’s, it’s a, it’s a delicate dance, you know what I mean? It’s a. It’s a delicate dance to have the humility and the love and the charity to say, this is my church. This is my home, this is my family, and God is here in so many ways, and there are a lot of problems. But I love how you said. Does that mean I need to abandon it? I need to give it up, right? Like, or can I, can I say, this is mine, and I’m going to engage with it in the very best way I possibly can find to? And I’m going to hope that I, I just, I think the world is better with the church. I, I do. I think that people’s lives in general are better continuing in the wrestle. It’s the wrestle that we’re engaged in, the wrestle with God. And part of that wrestle is the wrestle to love our fellow man, where we find them.
[1:49:45] Steve Reed: We need to fix some things. We do need to fix some things, but, but I think they’re fixable things. I, I, I don’t think, I mean, you look at the, what are the, the big issues we have in church, you know, are there big issues? I think so. I, I mean, I, I can list, uh, I can list a lot of things that I don’t disagree.
[1:50:05] Michelle: I don’t agree with going to anyway. It is,
[1:50:07] Steve Reed: it is, but when I look at it, like when I go to church on Sunday, right, like I went to church today. What a powerful meaning, and what, what good people were there, and, and I’m not saying good because they’re they’re righteous and don’t have any problems. They’re good because they Even with all of their problems, they’re coming and they’re trying to find God and be better and they’re, they’ve had horrible weeks like there there’s someone who like just huge back injury we just heard about, and there’s people that are just suffering and struggling. Well, why can’t we just, why can’t we get together as a church and and help you? Well, we do, we do. There’s so many good things that happen. I mean, the vast majority of the good. In this country and in this church, I just kind of compare those two a little bit. This is just how I look. I’m not saying that anyone has to look at it
[1:50:56] Michelle: the same way.
[1:50:58] Steve Reed: Yeah, I mean, just imagine, you know, there are times, there are times when, when things have to be abandoned, but that’s when what happens when a civilization is ripe in iniquity, they cast out the righteous, and sometimes the righteous have to leave. Lehi had to leave, but it was because they were trying to kill him. But even up to that point, Lehi was back in there preaching to those people. He was praying for them. He loved them. The word sustain, and we say, oh we sustained. What does the word sustain mean? It means to keep from falling. Which means that falling is inevitable. That’s why you have to sustain. You’re supposed to support. My favorite story is when Moses is holding up that staff, and he’s old and he’s weak and he can’t do it. So Aaron and her didn’t say, Well, why didn’t God choose someone younger that can hold that up? They sat him down on a rock. They sat beside him, and they held his arms up in the air. It’s kind of a goofy story in a way, but I think it teaches. It’s kind of weird, right? Like, why, why does he have to hold a stick up for people to win in the battle? Maybe that’s what he thought was happening. Maybe there’s another explanation. But what they, what their response was to that just taught this really powerful lesson about how we all can come together, even with someone who has like Moses, he had genuine flaws. He was old. He physically could not hold that up himself. And so, what about our leaders is the same, where maybe they physically, spiritually, their personality, whatever. Sometimes, you know, some of these guys, they, they may not talk the way we like them to. So, you know, there’s a lot of things you can just criticize so much about everybody, but what if, what if we just try to sustain it? What if we prayed more for people? You look at Ziazrum, you look at Alma, the, the elder, you look at all these people who were, you know, someone wicked amongst all the wicked people, and they changed, they turned. And I, I don’t think we give people enough credit, like we see this in the scriptures all the time, like God changing someone’s heart and turning people. Do we pray for the people in politics in the church, and whatever that we disagree with? Maybe that God’s just waiting for our prayers, or we should just sit back and resent them. I think that the power of our collective faith could be so much more effective if we pulled it together and we, we cried unto the Lord. You know, I just reading in, in Mosiah, where they were, the wicked priests of Amyon were ruling the people and they would put taskmasters over there and were whipping in. Well, God didn’t just like snap his fingers or prevent bad guys from getting in power over. What did the people do? What did the people like, just resent that? Well, they turned to the Lord and they repented and they, and through the collective power of their faith, their burdens were eased. God communicated with them and he did deliver them out of bondage. So whatever, and I think we’re in the bondage of a narrative. We’re in the bondage of certain things that have been passed down to us, right?
[1:53:46] Michelle: And, and I can say from firsthand experience, I have experienced the Lord making the burdens of false narratives or difficulty light for me. There, I have gone through incredibly difficult times in the church, incredibly difficult times staying in the church or attending, or, you know, And it’s been amazing to watch the Lord just kind of help things just roll off my back so much more often until there’s something that it’s like, oh, I’m supposed to say something here, but it’s not never contentious, it’s never Um, calling anybody out or calling, you know, like, I don’t call people to repentance at church. I just share an insight that I have or what I feel inspired to say, right? And I think, I do think that there is, I, and maybe someone else does it differently, and maybe some, I, I, there was one time that I did feel called to call people to repentance. I didn’t like, I mean to say something that was, you know, And, and it was really hard for me, but it was part of my path and part of my growth. That was many years ago. But, um, I guess what I’m saying is, I love what you’re saying about we don’t need to just see the territory. When I approach the scriptures, I see a history of God calling his people to repentance. God’s people totally getting it wrong, God doing, working with them, reaching out constantly asking them. And this idea of the church either has to be perfect or it’s nothing. This like it it completely loses the first principles of the gospel, which are faith and repentance, right? And if we say something is perfect, then we lose the ability to repent. Like those can’t exist together. Something perfect can’t repent and someone perfect can’t repent and so I think that the the invitation to repent is something each of us can hearken to in the church.
[1:55:30] Steve Reed: Yeah, exactly. So, so what you said there, the, the, these, these kind of uh absolutes. This is, if you look back to stage 3, remember I talked about is like, these people have things in a box. Well, the, the box making uh habit of stage 3 people often will go into stage 4 with them where they will just build another box. And the box is actually the problem, except now all the stuff they had before they put it into a new box and say now everything in that box is bad. And if anything, if you pull anything out of that box and go, what about this good thing, or no, it’s in the box. It’s the same thinking. It’s the same like They
[1:56:08] Michelle: didn’t really go to stage 4. They just shifted where they are in stage 3 in a way. That
[1:56:13] Steve Reed: it’s easy to
[1:56:14] Michelle: do that. Yeah, there you go. Yep, stage 3 with a new address. Yeah. I like it.
[1:56:22] Steve Reed: But it’s, but you just have to recognize like like what’s happening, you know, what are you doing? Are you are you being logically consistent? Are you being Um, um, are, uh, you know, are you, are you really being the way that you, that you would like to be treated, you know, cause I, I mean, it’s very easy to look at somebody. It’s so hard to not think in a certain way and to make those mistakes. And I think really all we can do is, as we grow and mature over time and as we spend time in these areas, we, we just, we look back at ourselves and say, Are we willing to change our view? Are we willing to, you know, look at something in a new way and maybe say, OK, well, maybe not everything is as horrible as I, I thought it was, but they’re still legitimate things. And and that that’s, that’s the delicate dance. That’s the difficult kind of balance we’re doing, and we’re all gonna fall in different areas. But that’s where we are in our journey. It’s like when something explodes, everything is just laying everywhere. It takes time to like figure out how everything goes back together, that the aftermath that follows. Anyway, I blabbed on for far enough. I think it’s your turn. I wanna go ahead and I wanna hear your side, yeah.
[1:57:26] Michelle: Well, no, I feel like this has been really good. I think, I think we’ve, we’ve been at it for a while, and I think we can just about wrap it up. But, um, I do
[1:57:34] Steve Reed: want to know.
[1:57:38] Michelle: I do, again, want to thank you for the journey that you’ve gone on, for your path. I love, I think what is so gratifying to me is seeing, and, and just amazing to me is seeing so many people spread everywhere on their own journeys with the Lord, finding these truths, feeling led to share these truths. And then many years. Later, coming together and going, Hey, we were on the same path. Right? That’s really, it’s like, in the mouth of 2 or 3 or at this 0.500 witnesses, right? Truth is established. And so, and the, and the work that each of us is doing, contributing to each other. I’ve gotten so much more information from other people engaged in this journey, and I hope I’ve shared some information with other people engaged in this journey. And I, I really do think that The way to go is to just keep each of us trying to progress and come unto the Lord the best we can, whether we feel called to stay in the church, out of the church, wherever we are. If we are being driven by a desire for truth and a desire for love, if those are our two guiding poles, then go, right? Nothing to fear, just go and and keep hold.
[1:58:45] Steve Reed: We live in amazing times, we really do, and And um there, there are so many good things, and if we have the spirit of the Lord, I think of that one verse in the New Testament it says to the pure all things are pure and the undefiled and unbelieving all, you know, everything is defiled or something like I think I, I quoted that wrong. It’s been a while, but there’s there’s good in all of us, and we need to give We need to like learn that characteristics of the Lord where we we look upon the heart, right? And we, we need to realize that we’re all cherished. The one thing I can, I can truly testify of probably the most important thing I can say out of all the the stuff I, I, I blabbled out throughout this time, is that God deeply and profoundly loves every single one of us. And his love is It isn’t a feeling, it’s a power. It changes things. It draws things to it, and it’s, it’s like the sun. It, it’s everywhere and it’s constant to every single person, no matter who they are, what they believe. It’s like going outside and looking and saying the sun shines differently on that guy. No, it doesn’t. It’s, it’s pervasive, it’s everywhere. And if we If we look at God that way, that’s how he is. And and the most important thing I think we could gain for ourselves is getting an insight onto how God sees us, and how valuable we are to him. Cause the minute you learn that, the minute you experience that, you realize Oh, you know, holy cow, this is, this is how he feels about everybody, and it changes the way you see other people. And, um, and sometimes it begins with us because we feel lost and and forsaken like why why are you putting this on me? Why and we think God’s punishing us or tricking us, or maybe he’s not even there, but, um, it’s like you said, just coming in and trying to find that connection, just reaching out in whatever way is possible and be willing to accept the hand that reaches back, um. And getting to know God’s character just little by little, as, as that light begins to open up and uh and then and then see what path God takes you on and where, what adventure he’s he’s going to, to bring you into. And I, and I think that’s when things begin to change, honestly, if, if you find yourself in a dark confusing place. Just reaching out, um, reaching up, I think like you were saying, right? Uh, and, and being humble enough to accept a a help that is beyond all human knowledge, because I’ve, I’ve waited in this a long time. We don’t, we don’t have very many answers, to be honest, like we’ve got some, but we have to go higher up to, to really get the answers that actually mean something. And it makes a lot of this. Um, easier to navigate because you have a frame of reference, you have some type of anchor, something you’re, you’re standing on instead of, like, if you’re in the water up to your waist, but you’re standing on the ground, that’s a lot easier to navigate than if you’re way out in the ocean and the waves are crashing on your head and you can’t touch the ground. I mean, that’s a horrible place to be for anybody, but I think a lot of times, spiritually, emotionally, psychologically we feel that way. And that’s, that’s a terrible place to be and I’ve been there, it’s, it’s horrible, but there is, there is solid ground.
[2:02:10] Michelle: I love what you said about feeling the love of God. The more people, like people who are lost. I, I’ve told my children when they’re in that darkest place that teenage, hard teenage life can take you, right? The one prayer is, God, do you love me? Am I known? Am I loved, right? And being willing to sit with that until the answers come and not that the answers away. Not, oh, that’s you, you know, I really do think that is, that is the fruit of the tree of of Lehi’s dream, right? The love of God. And, and it opens up so many things. We love him because he first loved us. We can’t, like, we can’t keep Jesus’ two great commandments to love God and love our fellow man until we have experienced the love of God, because it’s not our love that fulfills those commandments. It’s us reflecting the love that God gives us. And if we want to heal the world and make the world a better place, feel the love of God, the more people who come in touch with understanding how The loved they are that heals hearts and enables people to go forward and do good in the world in ways that that we can’t do until we are filled with that power.
[2:03:23] Steve Reed: Yeah, and imagine, imagine what would happen to the church if if more of us, you know, really, uh, stop for a minute and, and, and we, we get this so absolutist with things and and whatnot, but, um, um, but just, you know, take a break, even rebuild, reconstruct your faith if you need to. Go on that personal journey, it’s, it can be difficult to, to have your boxes fall to pieces, but um, It’s, it’s totally worth it. Uh, that humility will be rewarded. It will be, and, uh, it’s, and I think that’s just a beautiful thing about life. And, and these things are put here for us to wrestle with. I mean, it’s, it’s not easy for a reason because in the grappling with these things, the hope I think is, is we eventually turn to God, cause we’re we’re we’re gonna be left at these forks in the road, no matter where you go. and, and we think that if we just find one more historical reference or one more thing, that’s gonna be the answer. That’s gonna be the, the thing, right? And that’s, that’s kind of the assumption, I think sometimes. But the beauty is, is we don’t have to rely on waiting for some You know, thing to come out of the church archives or whatever to get something far more valuable and meaningful in our lives. And, and, and yeah, this, this article that I wrote, it, it’s not about, it’s not an attack on polygamy, it’s not a defense on polygamy. I mean, you’ll have people saying, oh, it absolutely is one way or another. The the the intent that I wrote this was to help with scripture. Because the one thing about this subject that I that I Dislike more than anything else. is the things that are being discussed here are so important because this is human nature. This is what’s happening in the world right now with sex slavery and trafficking, and all these things. And we have this, this sermon that connects with these things, but, but they just get glossed over, glossed over and people tend to, I think, 00, that’s the loophole. Chapter and and they may skip over it. But why don’t we get to condemn it prevents us from condemning things that should be condemned. And, and we’re we’re very, at the very least, we’re neutral on them, which is still terrible, I think. Like in the Come Follow me, it just kind of jumps over these things, because we, because we’re afraid of, of uh defending people who, who have long passed on, you know, and, and we think it may reflect negatively, and, but we need, yeah, we need answers to some of that. It’s difficult, but I think the scriptures are here before us today. They’re relevant in today’s world. And I think we’re this one right here is so powerful, the Nephite Nation was almost destroyed because of this. The Lord said that he would preserve the Lamanites, the wicked Lamanites, because they kept this one commandment. And here the Lord is about ready to annihilate them cause they’re breaking this one commandment. And so why can’t we condemn this today? Why can’t we speak in the power of the language to these things today? Aren’t we supposed to call out, you know, sin and, and things like this? And so it, this is what frustrates me is there’s this one little, it’s like Satan put a little hook into this, or a little, a little wedge to just have us gloss over and not really confront it with the extremely, um, profound and, uh, visceral language that’s being used here, you know, and I think that’s tragic, that that our that our scripture is being neutralized in that way, in a time when it’s needed critically.
[2:07:15] Michelle: I think you’re, I love how you explain how you went into that again, how God is using the strongest language possible here, just as I, just as Joseph Smith used the strongest language possible throughout his life.yrum Smith used Jacob too as a sermon against polygamy to say it’s a perpetual commandment, right? So they knew it, and it took all of the resting to give us this new idea that we just assume is true. But one thing I, I didn’t bring it up in your paper that I really loved is the end of your paper, how you focused on concubines and compared it to pornography, which I thought was actually brilliant. And so
[2:07:53] Steve Reed: I virtual hams, right?
[2:07:56] Michelle: Yeah, virtuals and CS Lewis, yeah. Yeah, and it was, it was so spot on because people always ask, how is that relevant? But it actually is profoundly relevant to us just to recognize. I, I never in the, in the, um, game of shame and wanting to shame people and wanting to like, you know, people have struggles and difficult, difficult temptations and challenges to. With. And we need to be relying on the savior, not judging one another. But I think recognizing it and combining it in this, you know, attaching concubines to sex slaves, to sex workers and, and, and people who provide this content, that was a really important connection. That I really appreciated. So I thought that was really insightful as well. I, yeah, I highly, highly recommend this article to everyone. I hope that you’ll read it. And, um, you know, and it also, of course, made my brain go a million miles an hour with things I wanted to add. And so it’s fun to read it and discuss it with people because it really is good, um, food for thought and to increase dialogue. And those who, those who disagree with us, go ahead and write a refutation. I think we’d be very interested to hear what you think you’ve got wrong, because I think in principle, it’s right on, right on the money. So, Steve, thank you so much for coming. I have really enjoyed our conversation. I think it was so valuable, and I’m looking forward to talking again. I think that we probably will.
[2:09:27] Steve Reed: Yeah, that’d be wonderful. Thank you so much for having me on. It was a pleasure.
[2:09:31] Michelle’s Son: My mom wanted me to give another huge shout out to Steve Reed. Thank you for coming out and talking to her, and thank you for all of you for watching her videos. She’ll be back next week.
