A lot has happened since our last call-in show! Let’s meet and discuss all that has been going on. From constant attacks by crazy (alleged former) cult leaders, to interviews with actual polygamists and our accelerating efforts to poke holes in the Brian Hales polygamy narrative, there is a lot to talk about!
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Chapter Index
0:00 Intro
1:10 Joseph’s journal entry
7:10 Jacob 2 & Malachi 2
10:20 Jeff – Brigham Young and D&C 126
18:30 Inconsistencies in the D&C
19:35 Joseph – Comment about Section 132
21:20 Tim – D&C sections added later
21:50 Dixie – Jesus chose Judas
24:30 Mason – Wasn’t God aware of Brigham’s polygamy?
24:50 Rayetta – Why did Mary Fielding Smith follow Brigham?
32:05 Camry – David Alexander videos
39:00 Lauren – Michelle’s example of non-defensiveness
41:45 Lauren – Jesus, SLC Temple, and Tartaria?
46:30 Ross – Sealing keys and Joseph Smith
51:40 Ross – Polygamy in ancient times
58:55 Benjamin – Word of Wisdom and Brigham Young
1:05:20 Mack – Is Brigham in heaven with his many wives?
1:11:50 Kwaku – writing analysis of Section 132
1:13:50 Kwaku – Freemasonry; 132 & the god of many wives & concubines
1:19:40 Chrissy – Did Joseph pass the keys to the Twelve before he died?
1:21:55 Emma – Engaging with other Christians
1:23:10 Hank – Chief Midegah
1:25:00 Andrew – Joseph Kingsbury’s journal
1:34:20 Leslie – Wendy Nelson; polygamy in the next life; trust in the Lord
1:40:15 Alexander – Willard Richards, “the great event of 1844”
1:42:00 Tiani – Matthew Bowman’s opinion piece in the Salt Lake Tribune
1:45:30 Tim – William Clayton journals
1:46:50 God’s blessings; Michelle’s speaking experience
Transcript
[00:00] Michelle: Ready? Welcome to 132 Problems, our second live call-in show, our 5th Sunday, what do we call it, a 5th Sunday lesson, a 5th Sunday fire, whatever we want to call it. It’s our 5th Sunday call-in show, and I am excited to be here. It has been a wild week, a wild weekend. I just drove almost 8 hours to get here in time to start this right now. So I’m really excited to be here to talk to all of you. And The reminder you can see it on the screen. The phone number is Joe 1563-663-9433. And a reminder also that we’re accepting super chats if you want to jump to the front of the line and we super appreciate any super chats or any other donations that come in. Thank you so much. And um I’m just noticing my pictures are not even straight. That’s what happens when I, sorry, you probably couldn’t hear me that my pictures aren’t straight. That’s what happens when you barely get home from camping. So, um, while we are waiting for people to, um, call in, I want to share something with you that, um, that really struck me a couple of weeks ago, and I’m hoping I have it um fresh enough on my mind to be able to share it. Articulately without too much trouble. So let me show you something that I thought was really profound. So this is um Joseph Smith’s. Journal that actually sounds very personal that it was from him, that he wrote his reflections and blessings on the 16th and 23rd of August 1842. This is when Joseph Smith was in hiding from the Missouri, um, what bounty hunters after Governor Boggs was um was shot and um John Bennett made sure that they blamed it on Joseph Smith, even though they had somebody else already that they were. Um, that, that, that they already had another suspect that was their primary suspect until John Bennett got in and made sure that they blamed Joseph Smith, which was very unfortunate. So Joseph was in hiding, and you’ll remember the night, I don’t have it right in front of me. I want to say it was on the 11th or the 12th, maybe the 15th. I’ll look it up and get the details of when I include this in an official episode. But um he arranged a meeting in the middle of the night in a in an island in the middle of the Mississippi River. And Emma was there, and Hiram was there, and a few others came. And, um, Joseph Smith afterwards wrote in his journal, the most beautiful thing. He said, with what unspeakable delight and what transports of joy swelled my bosom, when I took by the hand on that night, my beloved wife, she that was the, my wife, even the wife of my youth and the choice of my heart. Many were the reverberations of my mind when I contemplated for a moment the many scenes we had been called to pass through, the fatigues and the toils and the sorrows and sufferings and the joys and consolations from time to time had strewn our paths and crowned our board. Oh, what a commingling of thought filled my mind for the moment. Again she is here, even in the 7th trouble, undaunted, firm and unwavering, unchangeable, affectionate Emma. That journal entry I can barely read without just crying, and I was, we just barely passed the anniversary of the martyrdom of Joseph Smith, and my thoughts immediately go to Emma with the burden she was left to carry, pregnant with her 11th child and her husband was killed. And this is what Joseph had written about his wife. And the thing that really got me. Now, remember, while he’s in hiding, when he wrote this, when he met Emma on the island, is the same time that we claim that that note that he wrote to, um, the Whitneys, to, um, Newell and Elizabeth Whitney, that only names them and says, Please come and meet me. And I’m, I’m staying in one room and if Emma is, is not, if you don’t see Emma, you should be safe. We claim. That he was saying, don’t come if Emma’s here cause she can’t know that I’m. arranging a booty call with Sarah, your teenage daughter, is how that is explained to be without understanding any of the context that he was in hiding, and we have sources that show us how careful Emma was being to not let the mob, the bounty hunters, or anybody else hunting Joseph know where he was hiding and where where his space was. That was also why he said burn this letter because it gave up his hiding place. It told them the room he was in, right, where he had one room. And the thing that really got me here is I realized, I don’t even know if he did this intentionally. I don’t know that he did. I actually don’t believe he did. I think this was by inspiration. But the wife of my youth that you can see right here, is an important clue. And we’ll get to calls in just a minute. I just started on this before a call came in. So thanks for holding on. We’ll be with you shortly. But the wife of my youth is spoken of in the scriptures. He’s using a scriptural term, and it is profound. And so I won’t go into it fully here because we want to get onto the calls, but I want to tell you Proverbs 5. Let me get there. Proverbs 5, you can see I’ve highlighted it right here in verse 18. But he said, um, let’s see. Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad and rivers of water in the streets. Let them be let them be thine own and not strangers with thee. Let thy fountain be blessed and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. People interpret that wife of thy youth, meaning the wife I married when I was young, as opposed to all of these other wives I’ve married since. That is not what Joseph was saying at all, because Joseph knew the scriptures. Let thy fountains be blessed and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe. Let her breasts satisfy thee at all times and be thou ravished always with her love. And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman and embrace embrace the bosom of a stranger, for the ways of man are before the eyes of the Lord, and he pondreth all his doings. His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall beholden with the cords of his sins. He shall die without instruction, and in the greatness of his folly, he shall go astray. The wife of thy youth. The wife of my youth as a term straight out of Proverbs, that is about monogamy. That is saying, the wife of your youth is your only wife. Don’t lust after anybody else. Only be with her. I thought that was beautiful. And then it is echoed from Proverbs in Malachi. So let me go to Malachi 2, and I’ll see if I can find it. I’m gonna start at verse 11. Judah has dealt treacherously treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel. Now, I want to, I, I won’t take time to go over Jacob 2 right now, but those of you who are familiar with Jacob 2, which is hopefully all of you, starting at about um 19, right? Verse uh let’s see. Um, let’s see, sorry, da da da da. Oh yeah, verse 22 is where it starts. I should have it memorized by now, but I always have to look it up again. Where God starts talking about the greater, the grosser crime of polygamy, right? That the men are starting to hold in their hearts because of the things written about David and Solomon, which still, still we are doing today. And, um, so anyway, I want people to please compare Malachi 2 to Jacob 2 because there are so many parallels. So I’m just going to read Jacob 2 and let you guys think through, oh, I had shared Jacob 2, but I, I, I want you guys to think about Jacob 2 as I’m reading this. Judah hath dealt treacherous treacherously, and an abomination key word from Jacob2, an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem, just as we’re told in Jacob 2. For Judah hath profaned the holiness of the Lord which he loved and hath married the daughter of a strange god, the God of many wives and concubines, which is not the one true God. The Lord will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the Lord of hosts. And this ye have done again, covering, oh, it went too high, covering the altar of the Lord with tears, with weeping, and with crying out. Remember what it says in Jacob 2:31 through 35, Tears and weeping and crying out insomuch that he regardeth not the offering anymore or receiveth it with goodwill at your hands. This is also straight out of Isaiah chapter one, so many references here. Yet we will say, wherefore? I mean, what, why? What have we done? Because the Lord hath been witness against thee and the wife of thy youth, against, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously. Yet she is thy companion and the wife of thy covenant. That verse right there is profound and it again just made me. Amazed by Joseph Smith by in in this very time period that we are accusing him of the of writing a note about polygamy, he himself says, the wife of my youth about Emma. When we, when we are told this, she is the wife of the covenant, cause there’s only one wife of the of the of the covenant. And this is exactly what this is about. And did he not make one? Did he not make those 21, twain shall become one. Twain means two. Yet had yet had he the residue of the spirit and wherefore one. That he might seek a godly seed so that we can raise up seed. Oh, please compare this to Jacob too. Therefore, take heed to your spirit and let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth. This is amazing to me. It’s so beautiful, and it goes on, for the Lord, the God of Israel, sayeth that he hateth putting away, for one covereth violence with his garment, sayeth the Lord of hosts. Therefore, take heed to your spirit that ye deal not treacherously. Yeah, it, it goes on and on and on. So anyway, I, I just fell in love with the fact that Joseph talked about the wife of his youth in that source that we need to take seriously. He is again teaching us another lesson about the sanctity of the marriage covenant that God established that Joseph honored. So Thanks for letting me go into that. I, I hope to talk about it in more in depth um another time, and I really recommend people study that out because it goes on and on and it is profound. So I think we are ready for our first caller, and we have Jeff, hello Jeff.
[10:31] Caller Jeff: Hey, is this
[10:32] Michelle: Michelle? It is Michelle. Hello.
[10:35] Caller Jeff: Wow. I’m happy to talk to you. Um, kind of a recent listener been absorbing what you’ve been saying. really appreciate all the research you’ve been doing. Um, I just have a question. I have, I’ve seen you talk about it on, um. Uh, some podcasts like Zy Media, but really briefly, and it didn’t really satisfy like my curiosity on it. And you did say that you had some somewhere where you spent more time on it, but I, I couldn’t find it anywhere. So, um, when, when Brigham Young finished his mission, um, in Doctor and Covenants 126, um, the Lord says dearer and well beloved brother Brigham. And apparently that’s when him and Hebrewy Kimball, when they were on their mission in England is where they were devising up this um Polygamy, uh, um, plan. So it’s kind of curious that, you know, in the doctrine and covenants, the Lord refers to him like that. Um, that’s just part of it, and then the other part is Um, Mayor Bennett was, was excommunicated because Joseph Smith found out that he had been, uh, practicing polygamy and using his name as an excuse for doing it. And yet Brigham Young and Hebrewy. Kimball and others were doing this under his nose for so many years without him knowing or knowing and letting them stay as an apostle. Um, I just don’t understand how that part doesn’t really square with me, so. Um, I would just appreciate your analysis on that. I know it’s a deep topic, and you may not be able to cover it all now, but I really, this is like a big thing for me to get over.
[12:19] Michelle: Yeah, I totally. So, and you’ve got the advantage on me, cause I think you might have sent this question into me, and I meant to look it up, but I’ve been camping all week and before that, I have been just overwhelmed and kind of not able to take on any more. So this is a question that I would actually love to think more about. I am trying. I’m racking my brain trying to think of the scripture reference and the doctrine and covenants where the Lord tells Joseph Smith that he cannot always know men’s hearts. And if, if somebody knows what the reference I’m talking about, please send it in and we’ll share it in a little while for Jeff and everybody else listening. But I really do believe
[12:56] Caller Jeff: that, oh, go ahead. I think in I think in Zaina, you, you did give the verse on that, and I did look that up, and I do, I do understand that, but it’s like, how, how, how is it possible that they did this under his nose and keeping it a secret? It it seems like, you know, when they’re having their council meetings and all that, like, I just don’t see how they could have kept that. Uh, from him.
[13:20] Michelle: Well, so, so for me, I see it really differently because Joseph Smith, he spent so much time in prison, he spent so much time in hiding, and he was, he had so many responsibilities, right? I don’t think that he, and he, his whole, um, uh, what’s his whole approach was I teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves. I don’t think Joseph Smith was getting into people’s business. I don’t think that he was um. Um, um, what’s the word I’m looking for, that he was babysitting and making, you know, he wasn’t there spying on everybody. He didn’t, it was Brigham Young later that talked about sending out the the home teachers to make sure everyone was doing what they were supposed to be doing. I don’t get that impression from Joseph Smith. And he, um, when he, when he did find out, like with Harrison Sagers, for example, he acted quickly and concisely, and we have a reference from William Smith, and William Smith is a tricky source cause he’s kind of here and there and everywhere, but he does talk about that at one of the final days of Joseph’s life before he went back to before he went to Carthage and was arrested. That he, William was having dinner with them and, and was it William Smith that told them about some of the brethren that were doing this and, and Joseph said, Oh, as soon as I deal with this, then I will deal with Brigham and then I will deal with the others, and he said, I’m going to have trouble with Brigham and so I think that Joseph. A couple of things to me are how I see this. And of course, everyone has to, I invite everybody to pray about it for themselves and study it out themselves. I’ll give you my perspective at this point in my studies with the caveat that I am continuing to study and I’m continuing to pray, and the invitation for other people to please send me your thoughts, send me your studies and your prayers, or, you know, just feel free to do it yourself and not send it to me, but I would sure love to hear other people’s thoughts. But I think there are a couple of things going on. Oh, go ahead. Um, I
[15:15] Caller Jeff: think that yeah, I mean, that’s, that’s great. Those are great, those are great points, um. The the thing that really bothers me is the DNC 126 and how the Lord would not know though. And the Lord would be praising him and calling him a dear brother and all that. So that part kind of like confused.
[15:32] Michelle: So, and I want to get to that because I have not, um, yet studied out the the provenance and the history of 126 sufficiently, but I do believe that it was one that was added in the, um, In the version of the Doctrine and Covenants that Orson Pratt was assigned to do and that that that was printed in 1876. I have to do a correction video because actually I’ve been saying it wasn’t printed until 1880 and I Then found out I was not correct on that, and I hate spreading false information and creating more. So it’s 1876, and I will do a correct on that. But I believe, and you know what, Jeff, maybe you can study this out and I will as well. But I believe that that section 126 was added in that later edition. And so I don’t know what the provenance is of it if we have that from Joseph Smith or if it was added later on and, and we’d need to find out where it comes from. But that would be an interesting thing to find out, right? I do, I do think, like, the other thing I want to say on this is projection is a real thing. We all project, right? We project our, what, how we think and how we view the world and what we’re doing onto other people. So people who are up to mischief or, or who are judging themselves about something, project that onto other people and accuse other people of doing the thing that they themselves are doing or accuse other people of judging them for the way that they’re judging themselves or whatever it might be. I really do believe that Joseph Smith was so sincere and genuine and pure in heart that he projected that onto other people and was not. was not the type that was sly. And, and, you know, he was like, like, what is it? Don’t try to kid a kidder, you know, like a liar is the one who can always spot a liar. Like an alcoholic can always spot the lies of an alcoholic. Whereas someone who has no idea about that world would not, would be more naive about it. And I really believe that that’s, that’s how I see Joseph Smith. And maybe because I’ve done that myself. I’ve gotten myself into trouble by really believing people were genuine and sincere because that’s how I am. So I thought that’s how they were and then realized later. That, oh, they’re different from me. So, so I hope that those answers are helpful, but I would suggest studying out Section 126. Everyone, let’s do that together. That would be a fascinating thing to do because this is a fabulous question, Jeff. I really appreciate it and I hope that that is at least a satisfactory answer for now as we continue to study.
[17:58] Caller Jeff: Yeah, and I mean if you, um, and if people like uh give you updated information, it’d be great to see a video on this uh specific topic because I know if I tell anybody about this, that’s members of the church, that’s one of the first things they ask. Um, they just don’t understand how that that could possibly be, but, um, uh, so anyway, I, I appreciate you and thank you for um Your time. Yes,
[18:23] Michelle: thank you so much, and I know we’ve lost it now, but I want to add one more thing that I actually think this question reveals an important thing, right? People asking this question. If, if 126 is genuine and people are saying, well, why would God not know what Brigham was doing? Why would he call him his well-beloved brother? And right? Why, why would he call him that? I hope we can apply the same question to section 132 and wonder why God doesn’t know that Isaac wasn’t a polygamist and why God. Doesn’t know how many times he has condemned the doctrine of many wives and concubines, right? If we’re going to look for the inconsistency of God, let’s do that. Let’s do that consistently. Let’s not be inconsistent ourselves. So I think that that’s a useful question for us all to think about. So thank you, Jeff. I really
[19:08] Caller Jeff: appreciate it. Yeah, actually. OK, take care. Thank you.
[19:15] Michelle: See, did we have any questions? Oh, thank you, Joseph Nelson. I, um, I’m getting sent some of the live chats and I really appreciate that. And, um, let’s see, um, Joseph Nelson said, you are, uh, I, I feel bad reading the compliments to me, but I’ll go ahead and do it because it makes me feel good. I take a lot of heat, so I appreciate the nice comments as well. So Joseph wrote, You are so awesome, Michelle. You can tell you’re on target when you start taking this much flak. OK, I, I will agree with that. Let’s just vote that that’s what it is, why this is happening. I just wanted to ask what you think, um, are the top three most foolish aspects of Doctrine and Covenants 132. Oh, and keep it up. That is a fantastic question, and I would need to think about that to get the top three. I will say, Gwendolyn Wine, the fantastic Gwendolyn Wine, she and I, um, like to talk, and, um, you know, occasionally, and she has agreed to come on and the two of us. We are going to do a breakdown of Section 132, which I’m so excited about. So we won’t be able to get it to that until sometime in July. Who knows when it will be released. But so that will give you a more full answer. I will say just off the top of my head, we can just look at verse one and say the doctrine of many wives and concubines, when every other time many wives and concubines is mentioned, it is not a doctrine of God. I think that’s ridiculous and foolish. Then I think the idea. Of Emma being destroyed, whatever that is supposed to mean, is completely foolish. And then I think the idea of like, that it’s men’s desire to, if if a man desires to have another virgin, then it is of me. So it’s glorifying a man’s adulterous lust, which Jesus himself calls adultery, right? So, I don’t know if I did a more, um, comprehensive, thoughtful approach on it, if those are the three. I could probably come up with a different 3 every day. But those are the three that I come up with now. I would love to know what other people’s thoughts are, like, let us know what you think are the worst aspects of 132 cause it could be a long list. So thank you for the comment, Joseph. Do we have another call or should I do another comment? OK, so let’s see. Tim wrote to Michelle, one day, please do a podcast on all sections added to Doctrine Covenants in 1876, but that were not in the 1844 edition. That is a fantastic idea. I’m going to have to make a note of that. So I remember I had like section 126, I, I realized I need to study that out. I haven’t looked at where that came from. And so, OK, Tim, thank you for that suggestion. I will definitely see if I can get that done. And then Dixie, hello Dixie, I love your comments. Thank you. Dixie wrote, Jesus knew he would, um, Jesus knew he would betray him. I think that’s referring to Judas. He even told him at the Last Supper to do quickly what he was going to do. Christ knew exactly what he was doing. Yes, so is that in response to the, um, the comment about, um, about Brigham? Yep. And I’ve, I’ve also applied that to when people say how could Joseph have um called. John Bennett into the first presidency and then William Law into the first presidency and and people use that as evidence that he was clearly in on it, which is really, I mean, I agree you have to say that Jesus chose Judas, so clearly he was in on setting up his own crucifixion, he, you know, and so yeah, Dixie, I completely agree. I think that’s a beautiful insight and I think that Joseph, I, I think that we underestimate. How full Joseph’s hands were and what he was trying to accomplish. The the heartache and the amount of work that just John Bennett alone caused for Joseph Smith. He sent, um, I don’t know if it was dozens or hundreds, how many, I would have to look at the number, but He sent many, many missionaries out after John Bennett’s letters were published in the novel expositor and then picked up nationwide and other papers. And then John Bennett published his book. Joseph sent missionaries out just on the mission to try to undo the damage that John Bennett was doing. It was John Bennett that caused Joseph to have to go into hiding in 1842 with what we read at the beginning of this um of this show. And so so many things that he, and that that was on top of trying to establish a city, right? We looked into deeds, how much he was doing just with property and moving people in, and he and Emma having so many people moving into their home. They also were parents, and he, I mean, he had so many responsibilities that I think it’s actually quite unreasonable to expect him to know what’s going on in the, you know, especially with people who are trying to keep it secret from him. That, like, when you read the journals, it, they were trying to keep it quite secret. And I know we turn it into that Joseph Smith was keeping it secret from everyone else. I thoroughly disagree. I think they were all trying to keep it secret from Joseph, which is made like plain by the fact that after Joseph’s death, it started spreading like wild. Fire, it wasn’t needing to be kept nearly so secret after that point, whereas if it was really that it was illegal in Illinois, if that was the reason, then you have to explain why so many more people started doing it and so many more children started being born after Joseph’s death. I think that is pretty strong evidence. So thank you for that comment and then Let’s see, Mason Vogel. Oh, I wonder if he has any relationship to Dan Vogel. I’ve appreciated that Dan has been commenting on videos. I find it very difficult to believe that God would not only be unaware of Brigham’s polygamy, but give him a false idea of his personal righteousness. Yes, I think that’s also referring to Section 126, and I, I do want to study out the provenance of that. I think that’s a very Um, great question. I want to thank the people that sent in that insight. So, OK, Rietta ask, can you talk a little about, about a little about Hirum’s wife, Mary, and why did she follow Brigham? So that’s another really good question that people ask. And, um, I have loved Whitney Horning’s insights from this. I have to credit Whitney. Well, so many people have taught me so much, but Whitney really has helped me understand Hiram and Mary, and I recommend her book that she wrote on Hiram. It’s Beautiful. And, um, so Mary, it’s, it’s, it’s a difficult story, but Jerusha and Hirum, that was a true love match from everything I can see. And Jerusha was beloved by the entire Smith family. I believe for a time, Joseph’s parents and younger sister, at least, maybe more younger siblings moved in with them, and she was really part of a part of their family. They had 5 children together. And I think that when Jerusha passed, that was a serious loss for all of them and um and then. Hirum was single with 5 children. Mary was a single woman who didn’t have anywhere to live at the time, so it really was kind of a I need a a husband. You need a wife. I need a place to live. I need to, I need help with my children, and they were married, and I believe that they were both exceptionally good people who did their best to make a happy marriage that was kind of a marriage of necessity to some extent. In fact, when Hiram is in Liberty Jail, the letters back and forth between Hiram and Mary are like she, like there’s, there’s, that was kind of a difficult marriage, although they were trying so hard and And some of the other family members. It was hard. I get, this is the impression I get again, please feel free to watch the episode that Whitney and I did on Hiram. Study out the sources and come to your own conclusions. I’m sharing my thoughts. But, um, Hirum and Mary, I mean, I mean, Mary, I had a hard time integrating into the Smith family. She was trying to replace Jerusha. I think she probably had a very different personality. There was some concern about how she was mothering Hyrum and Jerusale as children, it’s so hard to step in and be a stepmother. And so I think that that was always a little bit of a strange relationship. In fact, one of Joseph’s brothers wrote a letter, I mean, one of Hirum’s brothers, well, both of their brothers, wrote a letter to Hiyrum about his concerns about how Mary was caring for his children and oh boy, Whitney could give you all of the details much better than I could. I don’t have them on the tip of my brain. But um I think and and Mary also was very close friends with especially Violet, but I believe both Violet and Heber. And so when Hiram and Joseph were killed, I think that for her staying with the Smith family where there was kind of You know, like, kind of an uncomfortable fit. It wasn’t a close relationship. I, I think that that was a challenge. And so I can see her where her siblings, she had always followed her siblings to support them, right? Mercy and, oh, what was her brother’s name? Someone, someone could know. Forgive me for not remembering every detail all the time. But all of those people that she was comfortable with went west. And so to me, it makes sense that she went with them. But please remember that 132 was not published until, until Mary was already on her deathbed, not aware of anything that was going on and living with Hiber and Violet, right? And so that’s an important thing to remember. And then Hiram, if, if people really want to claim that Joseph Smith was a polygamist, they need to study Hiram. Because it’s shocking how they just forgot to give Hirum wives. If, if, if Brig if Joseph Smith were the originator of polygamy and Hiram had read it before the council, that it should be Joseph and Hirum, just like it’s Brigham and Hebrew, right? Brigham had 56 wives and Here had 43 wives. And that’s what we should see with Joseph Smith, like, number one guy. And number 2 guy. Instead we say that Joseph had 30 to 40 wives, and Hiram had, well, Mercy, long after Mary had passed, her sister claimed that she was Hiram’s wife and his only plural wife, but she was sealed to her deceased husband Robert Thompson, so she was only his wife for time. She had no children. There’s no evidence that they Ever lived together that there was any for anything. It was a ridiculous claim. Mercy makes a lot of ridiculous claims. Mercy is one of those witnesses that you’re like, wow, when you read her out. So and she claimed that she was his only plural wife. And then later we have Catherine. Oh, I’m not going to remember their names, but we have two or three other claims, but the church only claims a couple of them, and the evidence is terrible. So that’s, so it’s actually quite interesting to study Hiram, especially we have his April 8th, 1844 speech that has been erased because it’s impossible to explain when we claimed that he read what is now 132 in front of the high council in August of 1943, like. Hirum really exposes this entire thing for the fraud that it is. So I think that understanding Mary’s situation helps us understand why she went west and what she hoped. I think she would be able to, um, you know, that she would be able to find peace and connection there. I think her death is somewhat suspicious that it happened in Hebrew’s home right before Section 132 was pulled out of Brigham’s desk, so she wasn’t there to respond to it. And one of the most tragic things to me in this whole thing, there are so many tragedies, but that Hiram’s children, like Joseph F. Smith was raised up. He was orphaned, right? And he was kind of a wild child with nobody to love him, and And Hebram Brigham needed a smith in their leadership because they were interacting with the they were competing with the RLDS Church. One of the RLDS Church’s claims was that they needed lineal succession, so You know, Brigham needed to get some lineal succession, so they, they ordained Joseph F. Smith as a very young man and trained him up, but they were from how it looks to me, they were the best father figures figures he had, and they trained him up in this doctrine, and it’s just tragic that Hiram’s child. was was like used against his father and believed these things about him. And then Joseph F. Smith really did go on to, he’s the one that created all of the affidavits. He’s we know that he lied to Congress. It was it to Congress anyway? He, he like, was one of the main main proponents of lying for the Lord, and that’s really, really sad to me and also You know, I don’t know. Just I see God’s hand in all of this and God’s mercy and grace, and I hope to give Joseph F. Smith a lot of grace, if for nothing else, just for the sake of his parents, of his father, Hiram, and his mother Mary, and the sacrifices that they made. So thank you for that wonderful question, Reyeta. And then, um, let’s see. I think you saw, this is, um, Kimmy. I hope I said that right. I think you saw it, but the deleted, but he deleted your comment. But on David’s video against you, his, I think this is talking about David Alexander. So for those who don’t know, and I have not known how I was going to respond to this, I think I am going to do a video on it, but I’ve been out of town, so we’ll figure it out. David Alexander has done, I don’t know, something like 15 videos of me. On me, about me calling for my excommunication. It’s like, Welcome to the party. You’ve been here for a whole year. Good thing you’re here to start kicking people out, you know. And, um, I, I have looked at his numbers and I see that when he does a video on me, he gets 2 or 3 times the viewership as when, as many of his other videos. So I think he’s found like, you know, like, oh, if I do a video on Michelle, I’m gonna get a lot of views. So please don’t go watch his videos on me. I will do a review of them so you can see what he says. Let’s not. Let him ride my coattails any more than absolutely necessary. I will respond. I think, you know, he’s an interesting guy. So anyway, that’s who we’re talking about is David Alexander, and he said, and and I did on his first video that I saw that he did about me. I’ve only watched a couple of them, but I said, hey, let’s have a conversation, let’s talk. The things you’re saying aren’t actually true, so let’s talk. And he’s He has come up with his reasons to not engage, and which I think are ridiculous and should reveal a lot. It’s very discouraging to me that he has so that like, like seeing that members of the church really appreciate what he’s doing is discouraging to me. I hope that’s not the spirit that our church exudes. It makes me sad. So anyway, he deleted comment. Um, his guest and many comments said their answer from the Spirit was, Stay close to the brethren. What’s your take on this? Hmm, that’s interesting. I guess. I, I mean, I am always open to allow people to receive their answers. I think the Lord, he said, the Lord says he, he answers men in their own language, right? He answers people in their own language. And I interpret that in part to mean he gives us answers we can understand. It was hard for me to accept the answer that polygamy was not of God. That took A lot of study, a lot of humility, and it really shook me up, right? You have to get to a place to be able to receive an answer. And I think that that’s a really good question. I do think that it is wise to stay close to the brethren. I will say the brethren, for the most part, for the last, what, what year is it? So, the last 120 years about, have not been teaching polygamy. In fact, quite the opposite. If you practice polygamy, you are excommunicated, right? At least if you practice it in this. They have not wanted us to talk about it. They have not wanted Joseph portrayed as a polygamist. They haven’t even wanted Brigham portrayed as a polygamist any more than absolutely necessary. So I think that that is wise. I think that when the brethren speak, it is our responsibility to have the discernment to know what messages are from us, what the Lord wants us to hear, what the Lord wants us to take. And so, um, let’s see, there was one other thing I was going to say in response to that. Also, I think. I just, I don’t know. I guess all I can say is that’s not necessarily my answer because my answer is stay close to the Lord. Stay close to Jesus, and it troubles me that we substitute the brethren and the Lord as if they are the same, right? Like, we know from scriptures repeatedly and from church history. That leaders are not infallible. And if we follow the leader instead of following the Lord, we are like, it’s profound to me that Lehi in his dream, when he started his dream, he thought there was a man in white, and he followed him, and he kept following him through a barren wasteland, I believe, right? And it wasn’t until, and and for hours until he was despairing, and it wasn’t until he pled to the Lord for mercy and kind of repented for that. That the true messengers showed up, and he was shown the path, and he was shown the tree, and he was shown that part of the journey. And I just fear that when we set up men, do not put your trust in the arm of flesh is what the scriptures repeatedly teach us. So I love having leaders to sustain. I love that we have a bishop that does so much service for our word. I love. That I have a state presidency that does so much service. I love that we have ministering. I, I, I don’t think they’re called home teachers anymore. I, I always get the words wrong, but that we have ministering brothers and ministering sisters, and that I have primary teachers for my children and young women’s and young men’s leaders, and I love this, this, um, establishment of the church and what just. The the spirit-filled brilliance I see all throughout it. And I love that we have leaders that are entrusted to lead this church and to, to manage all of the affairs of the church, right? And to make decisions on behalf of the church. And I absolutely fully sustain them as the ones. Called by God, put in place. If God wanted it different, God could make it different, right? Our leaders are the ones called by God to administer the affairs of the church and to teach and to teach us what they believe are the messages for us. So I’m absolutely all about listening to those, hearkening to them, listening to them, taking them to the Lord and asking for discernment and asking for application in our personal lives. And, and we never want it to be that they ever come into conflict. But the challenge is, when something comes into conflict, when I had an answer from the Lord of how to give birth to a child, and my wonderful loving bishop was terrified about my answer and really opposed it and thought I was following a false spirit, I had to deal with, I’m being told different things when this is all supposed to line up. It’s not lining up. And that is a hard thing to navigate. But I think that’s part of our spiritual growth. I know that in 2020, many people felt very strongly of a message one way and the leadership gave a message another way, and I think all I can say is when I have learned that when there is conflict, which I hope happens as. Infrequently as possible, but when there is conflict with great humility and in serious, like understanding the seriousness of it, I err on the side of doing my best to follow the Lord. I teach my children to sing Follow the Savior. That’s where, that’s what I would hope more people’s answer is, is to stay close to the Lord. And if we’re going to talk about the brethren, Let’s talk about our founding brethren and let’s look at the teachings, the genuine teachings that we can read for ourselves of Joseph Smith and his brother Hiram Smith, the, the Joseph and Emma, the founding couple of this restoration. So that’s my answer on that. I hope that that’s helpful. I think we have, oh, we have some calls. OK, so this is Lauren. It’s on Lauren.
[39:09] Caller Lauren: Is it Lauren or
[39:10] Michelle: Lauren?
[39:12] Caller Lauren: Lauren, either, either one’s fine. I’m just supposed to even have made it in.
[39:17] Michelle: Yes,
[39:17] Caller Lauren: welcome.
[39:18] Michelle: And would you mind just muting your computer because we’re getting the feedback from
[39:23] Caller Lauren: big on both. Yeah. It’s because you were my um can you, are you still getting feedback or is it gone?
[39:28] Michelle: No, no, it’s perfect. I can hear you in this great.
[39:32] Caller Lauren: OK, wonderful. I have two questions for you, and you can choose which one, or you can choose to answer both. I want. I am new to your channel, but I, so you may have already answered some of these, so I apologize if you’ve already covered it. I just got so excited that you were doing live and I had to call. Um, first, I just want to say your spirit and the way that you handle information and handle criticism is such an example. Well, I can only speak for myself. It is such a brilliant example of how to navigate the times that we’re in, navigate information. I love having someone to look to. I, I haven’t had someone to look to for an example like that and how to have a dialogue so much we see people fighting. And, and bitterness and anger, and that’s not the way the savior taught us to be anywhere just a beautiful example. And so I’m so grateful just for that. Thank you for that. It has made a huge difference.
[40:32] Michelle: Thank you. And I have to say I, I have to thank the other examples that I have looked to that have set this example for me that I’ve been able to follow because I do think I call it, I’m trying my best to have a stance of radical non-defensiveness that I try so hard to not take offense, to not be defensive, to just take things in stride and respond thoughtfully with as much kindness as I can. I don’t always succeed, but I try. So thank you. I really appreciate that.
[41:00] Caller Lauren: Yeah. Oh, that’s the way to save your thought. That’s the example he set. And you think about how frustrated he could have been and how stubborn we are and how difficult we are to teach. I mean, I, it’s amazing, but, you know, and, and no matter what, he always he was so loving and patient and You just really embodied that and I’m really grateful for that to have that example whether people agree or disagree. It’s so lovely to have a, to have that conversation and to have that spirit there. So I, I have two questions. My first one is a more um Kind of practical question. The second one was just going to ask you to share, maybe at the end of the show today, just to share your testimony of, of Jesus, um. I left the church when I was in my teens, not because anything bad happened. It’s just something just didn’t feel right to me. And in my own journey, the further I’ve just gone on my own path, I just want to follow Jesus. And anything that brings me closer to Him, but it’s been a really long time. And now I’m 40, and I’m finally coming to really just want to focus on what Jesus taught and starting there. And, um, excited to see where that lead. I’ve never really even read the scriptures, to be honest. I don’t know a lot of things. I know I just want to start with Jesus. And so I would love to hear your testimony of the savior. And then the second question was a little more practical, and it was about the building of the Salt Lake Temple, and what you thought of that. I don’t know if you’ve looked into any of some kind of these, the practicalities. It seems to me, this is my very basic. I, I, I don’t know, I could be completely wrong. It just seems that once the Saint got to Utah thing. Things changed. The church changed. Brigham changed. I, I, I don’t know, it just seems like there’s a lot of confusion. This is just from my very basic understanding, and I’m just wondering what you think about the practicalities of how they even were able to construct. Those buildings or if they did construct those buildings at all. I don’t know if you’ve come across any of that anything around that area.
[43:16] Michelle: OK, so let me just like kind of cut to this, and I thank you. I will, I would love to end this with a testimony. Let me just ask, are you at, so someone talked to me and I will not remember any of the words, but about like an ancient civilization that built these things, is that what you’re asking about? So
[43:32] Caller Lauren: possibly, yes, yes, possibly, yes, that, that, that these structures and they’re all over the country, to be honest, they’re everywhere and, and it really what it does speak to, let me preface it with what it does speak to is that we as a society are not being told the truth. Of the ancient inhabitants of our of this land, and we can see these buildings, yeah, they, they don’t see, we don’t build buildings like this today and that they’re everywhere. A lot of them have been destroyed, but there’s so many here. So yeah, that’s what it would suggest that maybe perhaps that building was found sounded instead of built,
[44:08] Michelle: and I will answer the best I can and I, you know, like, yeah, for me, I haven’t, I, I will freely admit I haven’t looked into this. I am. Oh that’s OK too, yeah, yeah, I’m hesitant to, um, to, um, um, what’s the word I’m looking for to jump on any bandwagons, right, especially, um, and any, anything that is, um. More, well, I guess conspiratorial, and I don’t say that in an insult way because I have enough things that I think we are not being told the truth about in society of health things, our food, our medicine, like there are so many things. And so for me, um, I would need to see. Way better evidence that I’ve seen, and I need to feel inspired to look into it. I’m very hesitant to tell anyone they’re crazy or they’re conspiracy theorists or that, you know, like, like, because I don’t like how that feels when people do that to me. But from my perspective, yeah, yeah. So from my perspective, that isn’t something that I feel drawn to. I haven’t seen enough to like, like. To me, it’s easier for me to believe that they were cutting granite blocks and bringing them down and constructing the temple, knowing that the foundation is very poor and was very sandy when they dug into it. Like, those things make sense to me, whereas this other, um, these ideas don’t make sense to me, but I, but I confess there are people that have studied them. I haven’t. But that’s not, I have, I have more than enough areas where I don’t trust the narrative that I don’t need to jump into more, that makes sense. So
[45:44] Caller Lauren: I agree. I, I totally, I totally understand that and I know that there was kind of a tangent question, and I was hesitant to even to even ask, and you don’t even need to go down that path. I think you’re doing great work.
[45:55] Michelle: Perfect. Thank you where you
[45:56] Caller Lauren: are right now. I, I, I was just curious. I was just
[45:59] Michelle: curious. Yeah, that’s great. And thank you for the call, and I really, I’m so thankful to hear. That you are back on your journey with Jesus Christ. I love that the Book of Mormon teaches that all things that that teach men to believe in Christ, that teach humans to believe in Christ are from God. And so I, I’m, I’m thrilled to hear that you are on that path, and I would like hope and welcome and invite you to continue on that path coming to Christ. I think that’s
[46:25] Caller Lauren: exactly I I thank you so much. Thank you so much.
[46:28] Michelle: Yes, thank you and thank you for the call. OK, I think we have another one, and um this is Ross. So um let’s see. OK, Ross, are you there? Can you hear me?
[46:41] Caller Lauren: Yeah, I
[46:41] Michelle: can hear you. Oh, hi Ross. Thanks for calling in. Hi Michelle. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I can
[46:50] Caller Ross: hear you. OK, great. Um, so I think I first saw your, uh, channel when you were on the World radio uh crew, and I thought, man, this is interesting stuff and it’s. Be a roller coaster for my testimony and my beliefs ever since, but I’m a big fan and um. I have a couple of questions. We’ll see if we can get through or how much I get the chance to talk to you about, but the first is Joseph says that he’s getting creative with the ceiling keys. Mhm. So he was trying to, my understanding is he was trying to seal as many people to himself as possible or spread the blessings of sealing to as many people as possible. And from Whitney Horning’s book, it kind of seems like Um, I, well, I guess we’re saying he’s not marrying ceiling, he’s just feeling to spread the blessings of the ceiling power. I, I kind of want to know how you interpret that, I guess, or what your opinion is on that?
[48:02] Michelle: Sure. So I can tell you just my thoughts. Again, like I said with our first caller, just my thoughts at this time in my studies so far, with the invitation to everyone else to seek this out because I would, I would not claim to have certainty in this area. But when I have studied sealing through the words of Joseph Smith, especially the words of Joseph Smith, but also throughout the scriptures, right? And being given the power to seal is, oh, and I want to thank Patti Smith. We’ll get to that question in just a second. Thank you for the live chat, Patty. I really appreciate it. If you can put it up on the screen, I, I mean in the list. For me, so, um, the power to seal is also being given from my understanding, and I, I do go the round sometimes with people who see this differently, but, um, it’s also given power over the elements. It also often includes, it seems like a vision of the entire history of the world, you know, and, and I think that ceiling has more to do with sealing up unto eternal life. What you speak on earth will be spoken in heaven. What you seal on earth will be sealed in heaven. And And if we study out Joseph’s words on ceiling, it is very, um, very, very different than we what what we would believe as ceiling. I don’t see ceilings specifically or even mainly as sealing people together as much as ceiling people. Up to eternal life. And I am open, I know that he, we have the source of him saying, I will take you as my backload, right? That was, I think that’s what you’re referring to about him stealing as many people, uh, up as possible. And I have my own thoughts of what that means. I’m not yet confident enough in them to share them publicly. There are things I’m still thinking about. I do have thoughts of maybe there is, um, Anyway, different. It seems like different people are called to different degrees to pay a price for their people. Jesus Christ gave a sacrifice for all mankind. Maybe this is what I said I wouldn’t share publicly. And look at me, I have no filters, so I guess I’m sharing it publicly. I am not declaring this. I’m just as, as like what I absolutely believe, but I, but maybe Joseph Smith, to some extent also, like maybe, uh, Founder of a dispensation carries that same burden to some extent to pay a price for his people to sacrifice himself on behalf of his people. You know, I have all of these different possibilities that I’m thinking about. We know from Hiram’s speech. That Joseph was sealing couples together, and there are other sources, but how we have twisted that word of sealing to make it about what we control in, like, the only way you can be with your loved ones again after this life is if you have been sealed in in this way in the temple, and that’s what it means and that’s all it means, and we fully understand it. I just really think that we are. Claiming to know more than we actually know, if that makes sense. And so, so I’m open to learning more. There’s a lot of sense. Brief snippet on that. I love studying Joseph’s words on ceiling because it starts to make me go, wow, OK. He thought of this very differently than I have been taught to thought of it, to think of it. He was doing something and I don’t understand what it is. So I am hesitant to claim to know what Joseph was doing, and I tend to be a little bit hesitant of other people who claim to know that Joseph was doing. Unless it’s revealed by the Lord, right? That’s, I, that’s kind of what I think. Joseph also taught that he couldn’t reveal what that really was about until the temple was finished. The temple was actually not finished by the deadline and never really finished. So I don’t know that, you know, we believe that God will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God, and I am content to wait and seek further light and knowledge from the Lord. I guess is the best answer I can give on that.
[51:43] Caller Ross: Thanks so much. Can I ask one more small uh question? It’s, um, so Whitney Horning’s book said that Joseph was confronted about the revelation that later became 132 and that Joseph said that it only referred to Um, polygamy in ancient days. So, and, and you’re adamant that the Lord never, uh, allowed a polygamy. So do you think that the Lord never allowed polygamy in ancient times, or how do you, how would you think of that along with what Joseph Smith?
[52:24] Michelle: Yeah, it’s great
[52:25] Caller Ross: like trying to share about his revelation.
[52:28] Michelle: Sure, I think you’re slightly um like twisting that source, not quite fully understanding it. That comes from the June 8th and June 10th City council minutes of 1844 when the city council was deciding what to do about the Navo exposit. To try to prevent the mob from coming in and all out bloodshed and warfare and destruction in Navu. That was the reason that the expositor was destroyed, not to protect Joseph from the allegations of polygamy, which were already being published everywhere in every other newspaper. It wasn’t like he was hiding something. These allegations were already going everywhere. It’s a ridiculous misunderstanding, but, and I don’t have the sources right in front of me. I know I’ve talked about them in my expositor episodes, and I have more, um, episodes on that coming like Hiram and the high council talking about whether Hiram read the revelation to the high council, and I, I think people will like what I have on that as soon as I can. As soon as I can get that presented. But, um, I think that what they were saying, if you look at it, Joseph said he did have a revelation on eternal marriage, and it was based on, and I never can remember the scripture, I need to get this in my mind. I want to say Luke 22, Matthew 12, so someone can look it up, but it’s where the Sadducees are asking are asking Jesus, challenging Jesus on the on the Idea of eternal life or resurrection because they’re saying look, we have this Old Testament law that you know that if if it’s basically lever at marriage and so they’re asking about the seven husbands and whose wife would she be. So and that’s where Jesus says you you don’t understand in the next life they neither marry nor are given in marriage and Joseph says by his own testimony there and when he taught about it in on July 16th, 1843. He says that he was asking the Lord about that scripture and as a result of that question, which follows the pattern of Joseph Smith perfectly that he would have a question from the scriptures. Take it to the Lord and be given a revelation. He was given a revelation that in this life men must, must marry in view of eternity, and that was the summation of the revelation. That was basically what he was taught was the principle of eternal marriage, and that’s what he said. And then Hiram was the one I believe. And if I’m getting any of this wrong, forgive me. Just going off my memory. Hopefully it’s right. But I would recommend going to the Joseph Smith Papers and looking at the June 8th and June 10th, 1844 City council minutes. You can see both the original minutes and the, um, version that was published in the newspaper. Was, was it the, which newspaper was it? No, Time and Seasons maybe. Anyway, it’s, it’s all there and you can find it. But, um, Hiram was referring to, and like, like, if anything was about polygamy, it was referring to time. Passed, not, not now, and I think he was talking about the leverett marriage law, which actually wasn’t about polygamy. He didn’t say anything about polygamy. He just said it was referring to times past, which kind of, I think was saying this leverett marriage law, which is this weird Old Testament law that we don’t pay attention to, was times past. That’s my interpretation of that. And so again, I welcome you to read it. I think it’s useful and valuable to read, and I think that the way that we have been taught to interpret those city council minutes is just tragic. Everything. You know, the viewpoint we are taught is that we have to see everything that Joseph and Hiram said as a lie, as misleading, and I, I don’t think that that’s accurate. So, anyway, I hope that that helps, and I would recommend looking at those questions. So I think, thank you for the call and thank you for the great questions, Ross, and then
[55:57] Caller Ross: thank
[55:57] Michelle: you.
[55:58] Caller Ross: Thanks for addressing my question. And shout out to my brother-in-law, Paul, who I discussed all your videos with. Great.
[56:06] Michelle: Well, thank you. Hello, Paul, and I hope you’re tuning in and OK, now we have Benjamin on the line. Oh, let’s do a super chat, let’s, oh, we have a super chat first. And I have another to call. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And yes, thank you. Um, it was, it was, um, really good to be there. So this weekend, and I don’t want to take too much time, well, this week, I, we were going to take the kids camping, and I got a phone call saying, Hey, we want to invite you to come up to Idaho and go camping. We had already planned to take the kids camping. And I thought, oh, That would be fun to take them somewhere where there will be other people. My kids can play, meet other kids and play and So we went and, and then on the way there I was, I got a phone call from my friend, um, Jeremy Hope, who my listeners will know well, who was speaking at the event, and I didn’t even know fully what this, what this was going to be, but asked me if I would speak for 15 minutes at this, at this event. And it was, I, I, I’ll, I’ll do a video on it at some point or maybe talk about it a little bit more, but it was really good to meet so many just good people. It was Heartbreaking to hear the stories of, um, like, I should say, Denver Snuffer came and spoke at the event. So I think it was, I can’t remember the name of the event. I’m sorry, I’ve been just kind of flying by the seat of my pants, and I really went to just leave everything aside, spend time in the mountains, talking to the Lord, trying to reboot, recalibrate so I could come back and work hard cause I’ve been feeling so downtrodden and it was really good for me. So I, it was a remnant event. And um and it was really good to be there and see the wonderful people. I met so many wonderful people, and I heard heartbreaking story, story after story after story. It really felt like sort of Uh, this will be dramatic, and I don’t want to get it wrong for everyone and anyone that was there would see it differently. But for me, I kind of almost felt like this is almost a refugee camp with just refugees from the church who have been kicked out of the church. I had no idea, no idea how many people have been, um, excommunicated from the church, and it just broke my heart. And many people, you know, they are, they are happy and seeking the Lord and, and living their lives and But, uh, but I just, it made me hope that we don’t continue that because these wonderful people, wonderful people. I wish that they were in the church, even if they have somewhat different ideas. I, I wish that we could make room for people to believe somewhat different things and still be in the church. I’m glad we don’t kick people out of the church for believing in Somewhat ancient constructed buildings so that we don’t kick people out of the church over questions of Book of Mormon geography or questions of whether man landed on the moon or, you know, any of those things. And I don’t know why we kick people out of the church. It made me sad. But anyway, it was wonderful to be there and to meet you. And we had another super chat that I was supposed to read as well. So maybe we can get that back up. Thank you. I really appreciate that. So in the meantime, we have a call from Benjamin. Let’s see, Benjamin Benjamin.
[59:06] Caller Benjamin: Yeah, thank you for calling. Um, I, I was the first caller on the last show, on the last call show. Um, I, uh, so I’m active LDS. I’ve always been active LDS and I was raised in the church. I had a strong testimony since I was a teenager, and I, I wanna make that clear before I, uh, said, before I have these que before I present these questions about Britney out and. one of the things is that um, I really appreciated your comment at the end of the Jacob versus Jacob debate. Um, Jacob Isabel vers versus Jacob Hansen. And um, It really when when I saw that debate, I, I saw what you were talking about how some of these. Uh, polygamy accusers, they kind of Try to they try to they try to tie your whole family’s eternal salvation into the polygamy narrative. And so, Um, I’ve been thinking a lot about this and, you know, part, part of, part of the issue is that if you believed in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You don’t believe that Joseph Smith is the leader of the church. You believe that Jesus Christ is the leader of the church. And part of that is getting the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the gift of the Holy Ghost is supposed to give us enhanced direct revelation from God.
[1:00:42] Michelle: Teach us all things that we should do right. Mhm.
[1:00:45] Caller Benjamin: Yes. Now, this number, um, President Hinckley thought it was like 95% of LDS didn’t do polygy, but it looks from any stats I can find, it looks like 75% of people didn’t do polygamy even with all of Brigham Young’s threats against their soul for not doing it. Right. So So, so we, we see here that it’s not the church of the prophets of Latter-day saints, it’s the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And that’s an example of that phenomenon, right?
[1:01:26] Michelle: Right now, uh,
[1:01:29] Caller Benjamin: yeah, and it’s like I don’t know if people that are outside the church, Jesus Christ things understand that dynamic. Um, we’re not dependent on a cult of personality for the religion to be going unless you want to count the personality of God in the first place,
[1:01:44] Michelle: right? And I have to move you on a little bit because we have 4 people on hold. So, so keep, keep going.
[1:01:49] Caller Benjamin: So, so the, so the question, so the question is. Um, Brigham Young was known to buy and sell whiskey, right, and he, he, he. So then Doctor Covenants verses 3 and 4, which predate Brigham Young doing that have a lot to say. About the character of Brigham Young. And so I was wondering if you I mean, we’re talking, so I was wondering if you had any thoughts about that specifically.
[1:02:21] Michelle: Um, oh, so yeah, so the word of wisdom questions that we’re asking, like, we were given the word of wisdom and we interpret it so differently now than they did then. Is that what you’re asking?
[1:02:30] Caller Benjamin: Well, specifically, verse 5, so verse 5 is the first, um, thou shalt not in the, in the word of wisdom, and it’s the and it’s alcohol specifically. And then verses 3 and 4 are talking about the evil designs of Men in the latter days who are conspiring men and he and it also says those who can be called saints. Or the least of those who could be called faint. So it seems to me That Brigham Young is being called not a, not a quote unquote real follower of Christ, and it seems like he’s being called a man with evil designs in his heart, and that he’s a conspiring person.
[1:03:10] Michelle: OK, that’s interesting. Thank you for the question. I appreciate that. I would interpret it differently of all of the things that I think um are Troubling about Brigham Young, his consumption of alcohol is, is pretty low on my list, you know, I have other greater. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, and I think that the, like, because like one of the things that Joseph was told multiple times is that we need to be making our own wine and using that as a sacrament and that the savior will sit down with Joseph and You know, so I think, I, I guess this is my feeling on the word of wisdom. I think that our interpretation of it today is kind of wonky. You know, it’s kind of hard to defend it according to what the scriptures say. However, I am a member of the church and I keep the word of wisdom according to the current, um, interpretation of it, but I don’t attach, um, I, I, I don’t think coffee is righteous or wicked, can I say right? But I do believe in, like, like it while I’m in the club, I’m keeping the rules, you know, you know, like those are the things that I believe I’ll do. And so anyway, so I, I can’t give you a better answer than that other than for me, this is interesting and there are so many um sort of contradictions in the Life and teachings and behavior of Brigham Young that I can see what you’re saying to me. This isn’t one that I have spent a lot of time being concerned over because I have much higher concerns if that makes sense. But
[1:04:34] Caller Benjamin: I do, I, I, I would, I would just add that the hardest drug. Of their time was distilled spirits. That was the hardest drink they had.
[1:04:44] Michelle: I think they might have had opium as well, and I think there might have been I think, I think that maybe they had some others as well that were maybe problematic too. So I think there was substance use, and I hope that we can agree that like being dependent on a substance is not good, regardless of what leaders may have done in the past.
[1:05:03] Caller Benjamin: Right, yeah, yeah, OK, well,
[1:05:05] Michelle: thank you, Benjamin. OK, OK, talk to you later. All right, we’ll see you. Goodbye. Let’s see, it looks like we have, I’m waiting for my note, is that Macy? OK. Looks like, oh, Mac, Mac, OK, hello Mac. Thank you for calling.
[1:05:25] Caller Mack: Hi Michelle,
[1:05:26] Michelle: how are you doing? I’m good. How are you? Hello. I’m here. Oh, I’m super.
[1:05:30] Caller Mack: I’m from Kingsport, Tennessee. OK, uh, yeah, Michelle, I was wondering, uh, OK, you’re saying Joseph wasn’t, uh, you know, he didn’t have multiple wives, so, uh. So he’s off the board for polygamy. So, uh, but Brigham did have a bunch of wives, didn’t he? Uh yes.
[1:05:51] Michelle: Um, 56, I believe. Oh.
[1:05:55] Caller Mack: OK dokey, but that’s part of the church. That’s what they believe back in, wasn’t it, right?
[1:06:03] Michelle: I’m, what, what are you asking? Can you hear me? Yep, uh-huh.
[1:06:07] Caller Mack: Well, I’m, I’m gonna ask, OK, if they changed the church and say, believe me you’re wrong. But Brigham’s already in heaven with all those wives. What does he do with all those wives? Did you just keep get keeping one?
[1:06:20] Michelle: Well, yep, how’s it gonna work now? Yep, I’ll go ahead and answer after we let you go, Max. So thank you for calling and um. And I, I, I’m always a little after last time, I like Mac, thank you for calling. I hope that was a legit call. I’m not quite sure, but I don’t believe in eternal polygamy. I don’t believe that Brigham Young is in heaven with all his wives. I believe that God sees the sorrow and the mourning of the daughters of His people, as he says in the Book of Mormon, and that God has a plan for all of us, no matter what circumstances we were caught up in or trapped in this life. And as I’ve said before, I like to believe that there is eternal. Repentance. And that’s how I choose to think about Brigham Young and the other advocates of polygamy. I choose to hope that they have seen the, um, seen with some regret. I, I, I guess I could call it the Jacob Marley principle. I’ve spoken about it before. Just like Jacob Marley came to Scrooge and said, I was wrong, and look at the chains I’m carrying and I’m tormented because I didn’t get it right while I was on Earth. I should have been caring about the hearts of the people and serving and loving others. And So I choose to believe that that is what Brigham Young is doing as well as helping us clean up and undo some of the harms that were done during his life. That’s, that’s what I choose. It doesn’t have to be, but I believe we are told to pray for charity and give others grace, and I like to think that. So that’s what I choose to believe about Brigham Young in eternity. So, oh, Patti Smith, there it is. Why would the Lord have directed Brigham Young to move the saints to Utah? Do you think this was the Lord or something Brigham Young did on his, on his own? Oh, this is such a good question. Thank you, Patty. And I’m sorry it took us a while to get to it. But I, I think this is a beautiful question. And I, I think a lot about Caiaphas, and I won’t have the scriptural reference on the top of my head in the New Testament. Caiaphas prophesized of the death of Jesus Christ. He said, You know nothing about at all. Sometimes it is necessary that one man must die for his for his people. And I, I know I didn’t get that exactly right. I kind of butchered it, but you’ll get the, the principle and then the, I mean, the, the sense of it. And then in the very next verse, it says, this he prophesized not of himself, but being the high priest for that year, meaning in his position, even Caiaphas, who was plotting the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. He, uh, God still honored his position as the high priest that year of the temple of the religion of the Jews, right? And I see so many similarities between us and the people at the time of Christ, the covenant people at the time of Christ and us as I believe the covenant people of God, right? And so I really do just see God’s hand in all of it. I think there is truth to the fact that the saints coming west. Helped preserve the kingdom, helped preserve the um like, like there were other, a lot of other religions in that religious revival at the time that we don’t still know much about. But Brigham Young, bringing the people west, preserved the restoration in some important ways, although it also, I believe, I believe it became corrupted in certain ways. I also see the hand of God in it. The, the good that the LDS Church has done. There’s also been Things that are so heartbreaking, the racism, the fact that like, like the the sexism, that the hard, hard things in the church are all there, but also the good is there. The fact that the Book of Mormon is published and spread throughout the world and translated into every language that missionaries go forth throughout the world proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ as found in the Book of Mormon. These things are just I don’t know. Like, exquisite to me. I love that my church does this. I love the legacy of what my church has done. And I see God’s hand in all of it. I think that God works through whatever we, as humans give to him. God knows exactly what God is doing. God knows the end from the beginning. God knew exactly what would happen in the restoration. And I believe that God, so, so yes, I do believe that Brigham in his way was acting on inspiration to bring the Saints West with all of the problems. And then I believe that many of us are called today and the 3rd and 4th generation from the end of polygamy to help, to continue helping with the restoration in our small way to clean up some of that, um, I don’t know, I, I, I, it’s hard to put these things in the right words without. Uh, I guess, I guess I just am thankful to be called to proclaim the truth of the Book of Mormon in a way that I believe we maybe have continued on some mistakes for bringing young, but I see God’s hand in all of it. I see. Like when I’ve met more people like my dear friends, um, like Cheryl Clo, who I just adore, Cheryl and Dan Clute, who taught me about the restoration branches that broke off from the RLDS Church. And I guess they now are the RLDS Church, and there’s the community of Christ and there are the strangites and there are the heterites, they’re all these different branches of the restoration. And I guess I just think it’s like the Lord’s scattered seeds of the restoration and now we’re coming back together, getting more and more truth, and I’m so thankful to be part of that. And I believe that my religious tradition in the LDS Church is a really important part of that. I’m thankful to be a member of this church. I’m thankful to be part of that. So I hope that answers that question and thank you again for the super chat. I really appreciate it. Quo, is this Quu calling? Do you have him? Yes it is. Oh, hey, Kwaiku, how are you? I’m so good. Thanks for calling.
[1:12:04] Caller Kwaku: Yes, yes, um, oh, am I on?
[1:12:06] Caller Lauren: Am I on? Oh yeah, yeah,
[1:12:07] Michelle: you’re here.
[1:12:08] Caller Lauren: Everyone’s listening.
[1:12:09] Caller Kwaku: I didn’t know if there was another screening. Oh my gosh, OK, that was embarrassing. Hey, so I wanted to ask you, um, I’ve heard a couple of things about, um, Doctor Covenant section 132, um, being put through literary analysis to see who the likely author is, and, um, you know, I, I, I, I read a little bit about that and I’ve heard people reference. You know, various studies where they said it seems like it matched the writing style and prose of, of, of, you know, Brigham Young and Hebrew C. Kimball. Do you know, is that, is that apocryphal or is that real? Like, is that a You know, could you tell me a little more about that?
[1:12:47] Michelle: Yeah, well, and see, you’re catching me off guard cause this is something I have looked at in the past, but I’m trying to remember the name of the woman who did this study, and someone maybe could put it in the chat so you can let me know if someone comes up with it cause I It’s, it’s not right in my head, but yes, there have been literary analysis done. I, it’s up to people to judge the veracity of them for themselves. And so, um, I think it’s useful. I think that we can each kind of do this ourselves, even as non-linguistic experts, just seeing, like the things I’ve spoken about, the number. of mistakes, the number of the times that destruction is used, the length of sentences, the turn of phrase, I think it’s something that we can compare 132 to the rest of Joseph’s revelations. And so, so I think that we can verify that ourselves, but yes, linguistic analysis has been done of Section 132 and and said that it seems to not be in keeping with Joseph Smith, and that’s, that’s The most I can give you on that right now, but it’s an interesting topic to look up.
[1:13:51] Caller Kwaku: 00, well, well, yeah, I mean, I, uh, and cut me off whenever, but, um, the, the, I guess the last follow-up question I would have is, do you think there’s any connection between, to, to quote, to quote you, the gods of many wives and concubines and um maybe some of the, you know, um uh like, like Free Masonic archetypes, um, that, that, that Brigham Young was acquainted with. Um, you know, like maybe some of that 19th century, you know, esoteric occultism that he was very acquainted with in Freemasonry. Do you think there’s a chance this is if, if GP 132 was, was a forgery, do you think that There’s any connection there. I, I guess what I’m asking, and this might be very pointed, is it may have been tent and authentic to him, but it seems to be of a different Coming from a different spirit, or would you say it’s just forged or, I mean, do you do you have any thoughts on that? I know that’s a pointed question. Just throw it away if you
[1:14:55] Michelle: want. Yeah, we, we’ll, we’ll try and define that question together. I first somebody thank you whoever called in or wrote in. Ena Dearth is the one who did the linguistic study. So you can look up the Ena Dearth study. She, I believe, was a linguistic expert, and she did do a study on that. I know some people have criticized it, but I haven’t looked into the criticisms criticisms and enough to know whether they are, I would. Consider them really valid criticisms of her study over they’re just people that are never going to see any truth in anything that disconnects Joseph Smith from 132. So Ina Debarth did do a study and, and found that it was not Joseph Smith. So as far as your question about, are you basically asking, I, OK, I’m gonna attempt to answer your question, you can let me know if I’m interpreting it correctly, correctly. So, um, I, OK, so I do tend to believe that there is a false spirit or many. Spirits of deception in the earth, right? That that are among us, and it’s easy for people to be deceived in many directions. And I think this false spirit of many wives and concubines, that is a very compelling spirit because it speaks to all kinds of lust, lust for power, lust for eternal, you know, glo lust for glory, lust for power, and then lust for women and it just satisfies every lust that a man can possibly have. And I think it’s a really brilliant tactic of Satan and the ads and the evil spirits to bring this spirit in. As far as whether I, I don’t know enough about Freemasonry. I haven’t ever heard that there’s any connection with Freemasonry and polygamy, so I would like, I, I like that’s an interesting connection to me that I’ve never heard before, and I, I could ask my friend Cheryl Bruno, she is the Freemasonry expert, but so I haven’t seen that. I think it’s more likely that as, um, David and Pamela Price wrote about the connection that, well, well, first of all, let me say this, I don’t think that men need to be taught. Lust, right? Or to to justify adultery, I think the natural man is an enemy to God and always has been and will be until they put us off the natural man, right? So I think that it’s not surprising that men come up with ideas like polygamy, just like humans come up with ideas like slavery or people come up with ideas like Thinking anything that will give you power over others, right? And, and, and gain over others or satisfy your lust at the sake of others is a very natural man thing. And then I do think it’s interesting that that many of the early church members, including Brigham, served missions among the Cochranites. I think knowing about Augusta Cobb, that was apparently one of Brigham’s first wives who she left her husband among the Cockranites and had a son named Brigham, it’s kind of a confusing story. The Sources are she might have had two sons named Brigham who both passed away, or one son that’s dated two different times. But I, and then, and then seeing the journals of Brigham and Heber and William Clayton, their journals and their letters between Heber C. Kimball, and Violet while they were on their mission in England. Those seem to be where this emerged, and you can see so many elements of this, what did, what did they call it before? Sort of godly womanizing, you know, spiritual wifery, which is kind of the same thing. Emerging in those different sources, I think that makes a lot of sense to me. That’s where I connect it, not necessarily with Freemasonry. Does that help? Does that answer the question?
[1:18:20] Caller Kwaku: No, no, it did, it did. I, I’ve, I’ve been looking into, um, you know. And, and, and, and you, your camp of, of examining Doctor Covenants 132 and, and seeing, you know, what the, what the overlay is with Freemasonry if there is any at all, um, because I, I find it it’s, it’s two subjects that aren’t connected, but I feel like could be and um so I, I that’s that’s a very niche thing I’ve been looking into um as I’ve been examining all different stuff across the, the different opinions on the Mormon spectrum.
[1:18:57] Michelle: OK, that’s really cool. I hope you will tell me what you find for anyone who doesn’t know, this is Kweku from Mor from Radio Midnight Mormons Wardad, right? That’s what you are now, and I’m really glad you’re looking into this topic. I think it. It’s, it warrants investigation. So I’m really, I really appreciate that you have been doing investigating it, and I will be curious. I hope you’ll return and report what you discover about the connections between Masonry and 132. I’ll look forward to
[1:19:29] Caller Kwaku: it. Hey, well, definitely. Hey, well, thanks for for uh for letting me on and um yeah, have a great day.
[1:19:35] Michelle: Thanks for the call, Kweku. Is this a call or is this? OK, so I think next Oh, this is, OK, I’m trying to get the signals. I think we have a message from Chrissy, and she asks, What do you know about the 12 receiving keys before Joseph Smith died in spring of 1844? OK, so this is one of those topics that I have studied the role of the birth in meeting, and I have, um, I had it prepared I wanted to do an episode on it, but I felt like that was not the direction I should go. I’m going to stick with polygamy. So, um, so Chrissy, I’m so sorry. I’m not gonna get into that topic right now, but, um, I do think it is worth the study. I can tell you that the role of the birth of meetings, some great articles have been done on it. I think it um lacks a lot of credibility. I think there are a lot of questions to ask there, and, and I think that when you look at the speeches that were given during that time period while they were vying for authority and when you look at the provenance of the claims of that meeting, I am, and, and where that would have come from, I think it warrants investigation. And so that’s where I’m going to leave it for now, but I think that’s a great question and I guess what I can say is from my perspective, Brigham Young came west. The saints that followed him voted with their feet. We have a principle of common consent in the church, and I think that Keys, Keyes is a tricky one, right? I would recommend anyone doing the study that I did years ago of Keys. Look throughout the scriptures, particularly the doctrine the covenants, do the word search for key or keys and see what the scriptures tell us about Keys. I think that’s another, another topic. We tend to lump altogether, claim it’s something that’s useful to us, and assume we know much more than I believe we actually know. So I think that’s useful. I, I tend to believe that by common consent, the leaders have stewardship and authority over the church. I think it has more to do with that than our understanding of keys. And so that’s not necessarily a popular or standard. Um, interpretation in the, in the church I belong to, but that’s, that’s how I look at it. So thank you for the call. Should we go to some more chats? OK, so let’s see. We’ve had these on the screen for a long time. We’re getting deep in comments. Thank you, everyone, for the calls and the comments. So this is Emma Harris. Emma, I love your comments too. Thank you. She says, Michelle, I absolutely adore your scriptural insights. Thank you. I just watched your interview with Erin. Oh yeah, Aaron, and I don’t know his last name. It’s a complicated last name, but I believe his channel is Mormon Research Ministries or something, and he was very kind and invited me on to have a conversation. He’s an evangelical Christian in Utah and ministering among the Mormons. And he said, she says, um, any final thoughts on that interview? I know you were cut off at the end there. Oh, I won’t be able to answer that, Emma. I’d have to go back and watch again and see what I was in the mode of saying. But I was really thankful that Erin was, was willing to have the conversation. I would love to engage in. More with people from of different, um, religious denominations. I love engaging with Christians and talking to them. I, I, um, yeah, I did feel like he ended up being a little heavy-handed with where he was trying to steer the conversation at one point that was kind of like. Oh, where did that come from, you know, so that was a little bit, but a little bit off-putting in a way, but he also let me answer, and I really appreciate that. So I wish I could answer your question, but I’d have to get back and watch the interview and see what it was I was saying, so. Thank you, Emma. I appreciate the question. I think we have, um, Hank Holliday. He said, Michelle, off topic, but have you heard of Chief David? and I’m never sure how to say his name, Migga. If so, what do you think about him? And I, OK, I have only listened, I think I listened to a little bit of one interview, and then I listened to another interview. So I, I’m far from an and I don’t think I finished that one either. I just, I have been really Kind of way down and busy and haven’t been able to dig in. I, I am open to here I. Excuse me. So, again, I don’t know enough to speak at all con conclusively or with much confidence. Oh, I’m coughing. Excuse me, can’t edit that out when it’s live. So now I have a scratchy voice for a minute, but I am. I find, uh, you know, I’m interested. I’m willing to look into what he is saying. I did find myself wishing that he was kind of what I was hearing was more him really frustrated with how people are receiving his message, and I didn’t have enough background to know what that was about. So I kind of wish I would have been able to hear more what his message was than about his frustration. So if, if he listens, I, I would hope that that would be more the direction he goes is just tell what, tell us. He thinks or what, like, I don’t know anything about him other than he’s frustrated with some Mormons that are questioning his Native American ancestral stories. That was kind of the impression I got, and I am interested in hearing those Native American ancestral stories. I think I love that Joseph Smith said, Joseph Smith said, we believe in truth wherever we can find it. And so if there’s truth there or even just like interest there, I’m interested. So I, yeah, I think that was really interesting. So. Thank you for the question. Oh, we have another question. So we have Andrew and, OK, Andrew, are
[1:25:04] Caller Andrew: you there? Hi,
[1:25:05] Michelle: thanks for calling.
[1:25:07] Caller Andrew: Yes, yes, ma’am. Awesome. So I, uh, longtime viewer, longtime fan and everything, um. How do we interpret Joseph C. Kingsbury’s journal and just for context for the beloved audience, Joseph C. Kingsbury, my wife is a direct descendant of Joseph C. Kingsbury. We’re just like playing around on Family Search and it’s like, oh, look at that. He, uh, he was someone that was there with Joseph Smith for several years to up to the end of his life. And he claims in his journal that Joseph assigned him a these are like his words. It’s pretty interesting, kind of weird at the same time, but he claims in his journal that he, Joseph assigned him a pretend wife and uh it. So yeah, so it seems to me there are a lot of people. I’m kind of in this camp right now. I think you have a lot of followers who know that wrong and people. My wife and I proudly eternal monogamous, you know, but um, there are a lot of people who are in that camp, but also I think based on this evidence that Joseph had to have practiced polygamy with these kinds of affidavits, but I don’t know the topic as well as you do. So where am I wrong and uh how do we interpret. Joseph statements like Joseph C. Kingsbury’s Journal.
[1:26:21] Michelle: OK, so again, I, I feel bad that I can’t speak with more authority on all of these things. I just, I don’t have all of them on the tip of my brain, and I haven’t dug in to each of them enough that I know them with confidence. But this is my understanding. So, so Sarah Anne Whitney and Joseph C. Kingsbury were Married. And then later on, much later on, Joseph C. Kingsbury claimed that it was a sham wedding to cover for Joseph Smith. So I find so first of all, the idea, we have to be so careful with the word journal because when we hear journal, we think it means that they were writing it at the time, meaning it was contemporane. Yes, when the events were happening. And so that’s solid evidence. This was part of the much later Utah testimonies. And then, and this is where it gets fuzzy. So Joseph C. Kingsbury was the, um, the employee of Newell K. Whitney, right? And the one who scribed what we claim is what, you know, what became 132. He’s the, the hand that wrote it. So he was involved in all of this deeply. So, so his words are, um, Questionable. I think it’s fair to approach them with some degree of skepticism, especially these later testimonies, especially when we consider things like, for me, I’m just gonna, you know, throw some of the things out there. And, and I think maybe I should, well, I want to do, I, I’ve been wanting for a long time to do episodes on each wife. So when I do my episode on, um, Sarah and Whitney, I will get much more into Joseph C. Kingsbury. But, but what we do know is they were married and They were living together, right? And no, no other of Joseph’s wives had, well, there are some that make one claim, but we don’t have, it wasn’t Joseph’s pattern to do these sham weddings, to have the girl marry somebody else as cover for having been married for Joseph. Why would that be necessary? The only reason that could possibly be necessary in my mind. As if she were pregnant, right? If Joseph had gotten girls pregnant and then said, oh, I can, it can’t be known that I’m the father, so you have to pretend to marry someone, right? And, and Sarah and Whitney never had Joseph’s child. To me, the thing, the whole thing is such a Bizarrely outlandish claim that I, I mean, I think that I just imagine Joseph and Emma, you know, in heaven just like shaking their heads at the things that we believe, at the claims that we believe, cause there’s so Bizarre. Like they’re so to me at this point with how much I’ve studied, they’re so clearly. Just wild tales that have no no bearing in reality and don’t even make sense at all. Why would Sarah and Whitney move in with Joseph C. Kingsbury? Why would there need to be a sham wedding for a teenage bride? She wouldn’t have to be married to anybody, right? And so I think it’s quite ridiculous. And then this is the part I’m fuzzy on that I need to get into. But I believe there is some source of Joseph C. King of Joseph C. Kingsbury, is it, yeah, asking for a debt to be removed. Yes, I think that’s what it was. So I think that, um, he, he basically said, since I cared for Joseph’s wife, um, will you wash away this debt that I owe the church that he apparently owed to Brigham Young as the church or something like that. So there was also gain to be had. And Again, I’m not clear on all of these details, but I think I’m getting them correct. So if anyone wants to look that up and let me know what I might be missing. But I hope that answers the question. I know you had emailed me about this question. I just didn’t even have time to look into it. I’m just going because I’ve been so busy. So anyway, I hope, does
[1:30:01] Caller Andrew: that help worries. I wanted to be, I want, oh, absolutely. I just want to be fair and email it to you ahead of time. It’s kind of a deep topic, and I did want to attach the associated journal entry just so you could see it see it for yourself. And, uh, I think it definitely warrants its own episode for the research. And I guess like follow up based on what you know on this, and this is this is it for me after this, but I guess my follow up is. Was he part of the problem then? Would you, would you call him a hero, villain or neutral, I guess, in the grand scheme of things and don’t worry, you won’t offend me. I don’t have any attachment to anyone. I’m just kind of curious.
[1:30:35] Michelle: Sure, so, OK, so I’m gonna share this is I just looked up your email. So, so I hope I did OK responding without um any prep. But let me share if I can see if I can share the screen because I just looked at the
[1:30:47] Caller Andrew: um.
[1:30:49] Michelle: Let’s see,
[1:30:50] Caller Andrew: that’s it’s just a, it’s just a link. I wouldn’t. I don’t know if you should share the whole email, but
[1:30:56] Michelle: oh no, I’m not sharing the email. I’m sharing. I’m sorry, I’m sharing the page. Is this OK? You can see it on the screen right now, the journal of Joseph Kingsbury. That’s all I’m sharing. I won’t share the email I
[1:31:05] Caller Andrew: have my Social security number in that email and I’m just
[1:31:08] Caller Jeff: kidding.
[1:31:10] Michelle: No, I wouldn’t I wouldn’t share your social. Thanks for sharing it with me, just kidding, OK. But you can see right here it says the the journals of Joseph C. Kingsbury, and I didn’t even look at this before because I just haven’t had time edited by Ronald L. Kingsbury and Eileen H. Kingsbury, which I assume are descendants, and the date is March 1st, 18 1973 is where this comes from. So that’s really problematic, right? This is why the Joseph Smith Papers project is so critically important because it allows us to see the original sources rather than the um what’s the word I’m looking for, it’s not cultivated but the The, um, you know, the version like the history of Joseph Smith that the church um historian Willard Richards and then others came up with to claim that it’s what Joseph’s journals said and what Joseph’s history was really about, and we know how much funny business went into that. So we don’t, this just says. Um, the journals of Joseph Kingsbury, and then it says Pioneer of 1847. It doesn’t tell us when this was written, anything about it. And so right there I think we have a pretty good clue that this is not a source to Um, to prioritize over other sources that tell a different story, I would say. And so, so that’s something to consider. And then I don’t know personally, I haven’t looked into Joseph C. Kingsbury enough to see how early of a conspirator he was a polygamy conspirator. I do think there were polygamy conspirators like Brigham Young, his best. Lifelong friend Hubrey. Kimball, Brigham’s cousin Willard Richards, who was the historian, the scribe that they raised up in England and trained in their ways, William Clayton. There are many people like that. I, someone watching probably knows a lot more about this off the top of their head and it’s going crazy, but I don’t know how early of a um. Collaborator Kingsbury was. I don’t know when the text for 132 was, was actually written. I believe it was in Utah. So I do think he was a conspirator. I just don’t know how early on, if that makes sense. It could have been that he was one that was convinced by others that this is what Joseph was doing and this is what God needs you to do. I think that that’s what happened to many of the women. And so that, you know, they’re sort of the prime, oh, who is it? Someone has sent me great emails talking about kind of the Degree of conspirators like A were people who knew that they were lying, were people who were going off of stories that others told them. So I’ll try to find that source. So I don’t know exactly what category Joseph C. Kingsbury would be in, but I would say that from my perspective, I wouldn’t necessarily find him credible if that’s helpful. And I certainly wouldn’t find his claim of a sham. Wedding to Sarah and Whitney to be credible, especially where it contradicts Joseph’s, Emma’s, Hirums, the entire testimony of their lives, and all of the evidence from their lifetimes. I think that needs to be prioritized definitely over these later claims. So thank you, Andrew. I really appreciate the call. Thank you. Let’s see. Oh, and then we have um Leslie with a super chat. And she asked, Do you believe that Wendy Nelson will be married to President Nelson in the next life? Oh, that’s OK. Let’s, let’s throw the softball question, shall we? I think that it’s interesting that, um, President Oakes in, oh, what year was that conference talk? 21 is coming to mind, but I could be wrong. But it’s when he spoke about polygamy, and his message was actually quite beautiful. trust in the Lord, right? And, um, and so I think that that is a useful concept. I would not claim to say what eternity will be for anybody. Um, other than my personal experiences I’ve had and my confirmation to know that my loved ones on the other side are very much in contact with me. I’m very connected to them. And I know that our um connection, I know that my father and my two daughters in particular, that I will see them again. I know that for certainty. So, but in terms of eternal marriage, I believe from the sources that I read, like, like the source I read, the wife of thy youth, right, that we have one covenant spouse. I think that the Book of Mormon makes it very clear that, um, Abraham had one covenant spouse, and that was Sarah, right? And so using Katura as, I mean, not Kaura, that was his wife after Sarah died, his concubine after Sarah died, his wife that he took after. And but his but Hagar didn’t have an eternal covenant with Abraham. That becomes very clear through the text, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament and in the Book of Mormon. And Katura as well was a second wife but not an eternally sealed spouse. And so I believe that is the principle. I think that’s what Hyrum was telling as well in his April 8th speech that Joseph taught him that he could be sealed eternally to Jerusha with Mary standing proxy, and then it was edited. It was the edited version that claims that Mary was also sealed to him. And, um, and so I do tend to believe we have one eternal spouse. Well, I don’t tend to believe. I believe we have one eternal spouse. How that works, I don’t know, because the fact is, the idea of eternal marriage is messy. It creates messiness and, um, And I don’t know how to work around that. So what I tend to believe is that I think it’s beautiful if, if, and, and as I, as I said to a caller earlier, I don’t, I think that we have kind of lumped the idea of sealing into this one idea to make it about a spouse with an eternal family in the temple. And I think it’s actually a much bigger concept than that, much more expansive. So my, my belief would be, yes, let’s go ahead and let widows and widowers or people who are divorced, be sealed to their next spouse, and then let’s trust in God to work that out. That is exactly what women are told, widows who have lost their husband. Aren’t allowed to be sealed to their next partner until after they are dead. But then after they’re dead, they’re allowed to be sealed. I don’t know why we would make that distinction. I would, and then they’re just told to trust God, and the men who marry them and aren’t sealed eternally and according to this doctrine are told that their children belong to the first husband, that that causes so much pain for the living, and I think the living is who we need to be concerned about in this principle, at least as much as the dead. So my, um, you know, if I were in charge of everything, which I am not, but if I were, or what I guess I hope to be able to see is that men will be allowed to be sealed to another wife if their wife has passed or if they’ve been divorced, and I would hope the exact same thing could happen for women, that they could be allowed to be sealed to a man if their husband has passed or if they have been divorced. And that we can just tell everyone, trust in the Lord, instead of letting the entire burden of this doctrine rest on the shoulders of widows. When the Savior tells us the the entire doctor of the of the savior sort of centers on care for the widows and the orphans and the fatherless, right? Those who are the least empowered need our blessings and assistance the most. So where we have a doctrine. That is burdened most painfully in our day and age by the widows. Boy, that should tell us something. So I don’t, I wouldn’t claim to know what is going to be the eternal destiny of anybody’s marriage because I think that I think that even even the parts that I consider to be the true parts of Section 132, the parts that are about eternal marriage that are inescapably monogamous, they talk about being sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. So I, I really believe that what we experience in the temple when we’re sealed is at, at, at best a um. A preview to or or a hint at what the real event will be that is being sealed by God, sort of as this is how I tend to believe this. Just as we can have our calling and election nature served by from the Lord, which means a visitation with Jesus Christ and be told, you know, our standing before God. I believe we can have a similar type of experience with the Lord as a couple to be told that we are united eternally in Not that we won’t see each other otherwise, but maybe there’s something more about continuing on as a couple empowered with, um, the ability to move on in our progression. I don’t know if that makes sense to everyone how I explained it, but that’s what I tend to believe this is really about, and we can do it one and one. We have one wife, one husband. It’s a perfect establishment. It’s God established it, and everything else, we can trust in the Lord, and both men and women can trust in the Lord equally. So, um, let’s see. OK, Alexander, what do you think of Willard Richard saying to the Brigham to Brigham three days after Joseph’s death that the great event, the great event of 1844 So Lang anticipated has arrived, and I just saw a hint of that before, um, having to shut everything down to pack and go out of town and be without cell service. So I think that is a very interesting source. Um, the great event of 1844. Again, it’s up to everybody to interpret what that may have been, but I think there are many sources like this that are at the very, well, let me say this, if it were on the other side and it were something that were, um, that could possibly be twisted or interpreted to accuse Joseph of polygamy. That would absolutely happen, right? Just like the Whitney letter is used as proof that um Joseph was a polygamist and establishing a booty call with this teenage girl through her parents, right in his one room. and ignoring all of the context. So I think that it is fair to view that, um, quote from Willard Richards with great suspicion and great curiosity and wonder if that might be talking about something that they would be guilty of. So I’m not going to claim to know cause I haven’t researched it and I need to research it to have an opinion, but I do think it’s very interesting. So, um, let’s see, we have two more comments. How much oh, I guess we are already past time. Are we not taking calls anymore? So, oh, OK, so I guess we’re wrapping up. So I’ll just get these two last messages and then I will thank everybody so much for um for calling in and sending your messages. This is actually really fun for me to get to talk to you, so. I, I really appreciate that you are, that you are participating. I have really enjoyed it. So I have 2 more comments, and I think we’ll wrap up. So, um, this is Tiani Coleman, I hope I said that right, Tani. If not, forgive me. Um, Matthew Bowman recently wrote an opinion piece in the Salt Lake Tribune that that was on last Sunday, a week ago, attempting to cast polygamy deniers as conspiracy theorists, attempting to support the standard narrative. Have you spoken to him? And yes, so. So I did read that piece in the Salt Lake Tribune. It was called, I can’t remember, but it was called something about why more and more Mormon types are um beginning to believe that Joseph didn’t practice polygamy. It said something like that. And, um, and then, yeah, went on to explain why that is happening. And so I wrote, um, like I looked up in the Salt Lake Tribune and how you could write either a letter to the editor or an op ed, or they have what is called the commentary that has to be under 800 words. So I spent an entire, I got up at like 5 in the morning and worked on it until well into the afternoon on Monday, writing a response, writing a commentary that I sent into the Tribune that I shared, um, I shared it on Facebook, but I didn’t share it on the blog on the website. So I’ll need to do that. I will do that as soon as we finish, so people can go to the, to the, um, website and look at the 132problems.org and look at the blog and see the response that I wrote. The Tribune declined to run it, which maybe they have a lot of other things, but I was like, oh, isn’t that interesting? It’s, it’s kind of the problem we face that Like the um people that are believing the standard narrative that are active in the church don’t want to touch this topic, right? Because they accuse Joseph and the anti-Mormons who accuse who oppose Joseph, don’t want to touch this topic because they need to have this to hold against Joseph. So it’s interesting to me that the Deseret News doesn’t cover this topic fairly because they’re in the one camp and the Salt Lake Tribune. That’s in the anti tends to be kind of more anti-Mormon, doesn’t cover it either. They declined to run my response, which, you know, I mean, I think that just, they’re not like, they don’t, I mean, I think it could have helped their viewership, which I think they could have probably used. So I thought that was interesting. But I did also email Matt Bowman, and I sent him what I thought was a nice and thoughtful, I mean, uh, um, when I say thoughtful, I mean like, Um, logical, like, you know, just kind of saying, hey, can we talk about this? And I invited him to come on, which he declined for the present, but I did send him my response, and he responded to my response. And the whole time I was driving to go camping, I, um, typed up a response to him and, um, and I haven’t seen that he has responded. So that was, um. In the middle of the week, I think that was on Wednesday, that I sent him a response, and, and I really hope he responds. If he doesn’t, maybe I’ll ask him if he would care if I publish all of our correspondence because I think it’s very insightful. I, I really do hope that he will come on the program. I think that it is one of the questions I asked him is I just was curious to know how many polygamy deniers he spoke to. Before claiming to know why we are in the camp we are in, you know, and that’s, that was in the email that he hasn’t yet responded to, and I, I shared many other thoughts that I had. And so I thought it was a good correspondence, and I hope very much to hear back from him again. If not, I will think it’s interesting that As soon as we start getting into the sources, conversation’s over. That’s interesting. So I hope to hear from him again, and I have invited him on the program. I really hope he comes, and I think that would be great. But hopefully you’ll be hearing more about that at some point. So last comment, this is Tim, Tim Oaks. Hello, Tim. He said, Michelle, can you comment on the status of when or if the Clayton Journals will be released by the church? No, I cannot because there has been no status update, I believe. 2017 we were told that the William Clayton Journals would be released, at least if the sources that I have seen about that are true, which they seem to be. It was reported in the newspapers. Whitney Horning went to a um Meeting from the Joseph Smith historians, um, I believe it was, well, it was several months ago. I don’t know if it was late last year. I think that, I think it was last fall, last winter, if I’m getting that correctly. Anyway, someone asked and they basically said, don’t hold your breath. So, yeah, that’s all we know. I, I can’t, I certainly am not in the know about it. So if anyone is in the know and wants to update us, we would love to know. And again, my vote is just make them available, just like everything else. You don’t need to write a narrative, you don’t need to curate, you just can give us the sources and trust us to. Read them like the grown-up people that we are. That is my hope. So I think that is it for today. Again, I will look forward to reading through the rest of the comments, and please people feel, um, feel free to answer other people’s questions and chime in and have a robust discussion in the comments. I think that’s extremely valuable. And I do just, I guess I will just close and I, I will say how profoundly thankful I am for the Lord’s direction in my life, for What I see the Lord continuing to do with my life, and the Lord turning incredible, um, you know, from my perspective, unthinkable trials into Beautiful blessings for those of us who continue to love God at all costs through all things, and continue to strive to praise His name and strive to serve and strive to be submissive to all things that the Lord sees fit to inflict upon us. I think that the Lord does magnificent things in our lives, and I just I, I have been, um, I, I guess I’ll just share this recent experience cause I mean it’s not the most profound. I could, you know, I, I, I try my best to walk with God, so I feel God’s hand in my life every day, but just, um, I have been struggling. A lot of health issues. I have just not been well. I’ve been having all kinds of Ongoing migraines and faint fainting spells and just being getting sick after sick after sick and trying so hard to pray, to know what I need to do and what this is about. And I’ve also been, you know, I know everything is the mind-body connections. I’ve also been really weighed down by all of the opposition, which is really hard. It’s, um, It’s hard to be out of step with this church that I love on some certain issues, and to have people be claiming that that means I need to not belong to this church that I love and um that I’m raising my children that I’ve given my life to. That’s Really a painful place to be and I, after this week and hearing so many other people, I feel even some bit of, I don’t know, like I guess survival survival guilt, like I can’t complain about it because there are people who have experienced it and I, uh, it just breaks my heart. So anyway, I had been weighed down and feeling like I couldn’t do the work that I feel God is calling me to do. I have episodes that I’ve promised and that I have just waiting for me and I’ve just been unable to work on them cause I’ve been so depleted and so struggling, and it’s been so hard and so I have just been praying to know what to do and yeah, having this phone call saying, hey, do you wanna come camping and we, we needed to leave on Wednesday if we were going and it wasn’t until Tuesday. I just kind of was like, I don’t have the energy, Lord, if you want us to go. Make it happen, let me know, but I can’t commit to anything cause I’m too depleted to do anything, let alone take my kids camping. That’s a lot of work, you know. But Tuesday morning, I just woke up feeling like, OK, we need to go camping. And I kind of just, as happens, was given the instructions of what to do and empowered to Be able to get ready to go. We left Wednesday morning. Anyway, and then while we were driving on our way, I know I told this story at the beginning of the broadcast, but while we were driving out, I got a phone call asking if I would share, speak for 15 minutes on the anniversary of the martyrdom. And I was still so depleted that I just, like, I can’t prepare anything. I can’t, I, it’s hard to explain the level of, um, sort of resistance I’ve been dealing with trying to work through. And I just knew I couldn’t prepare anything. So I just told, told Jeremy, I’m like, if I have something to say, and if I have the energy, then I’ll be happy to. I would love to, but I’m not gonna commit cause I can’t, you know, it’s too much. So, anyway, um, while I was sitting listening to, uh, we, we got up there, we went and visited some friends in Boise on Wednesday and then went up to the camping spot on Thursday, and, um, Anyway, when and and it was on Thursday that Jeremy was speaking and got there just in time to go and listen to him and as I was listening, I was just praying, God, is there something you want me to say? I have nothing to, is there something you want me to say? And I just kind of felt the answer yes. I was like, Will you give me words to say and felt the answer yes, and You know, should I say something? Got the answer, yes, so I just kind of sat there as I walked up to the um podium, just the spirit just came and I, I, I, it was by no means a perfect speech, but the spirit was there and this and the Lord followed through on all of that and I felt so. Thankful for how the Lord empowers us beyond our abilities. I did not have the ability to get ready to take my kids camping. I did not have the ability to prepare words to say, but, um, the Lord empowered me and gave me the ability, and I felt, I don’t know, I just, I laid in bed all night just praising God with so much gratitude for How God shows up in our lives and leads and directs us and gives us, I don’t uses us, uses us even when we don’t feel like we’re able to be used. I was so profoundly thankful. I I, I just, I don’t even know what to say other than. I am so thankful for my relationship with God. I’m so thankful to know the Lord and to know the voice of the Lord, to know the Spirit. I am so thankful for how the Lord is involved in our lives and how we can cultivate that ability to listen, and we can have that relationship. I am Profoundly thankful for this gospel. I’m so thankful for the Book of Mormon and what it teaches us about. The doctrine of Jesus Christ, something that, you know, it’s so simple. And not complicated, and yet such a lifelong journey to fulfill. I am thankful for the things that the Book of Mormon teaches and, and, and that the Bible teaches. I am thankful to my core for the example of Jesus Christ. One of maybe the first caller talked about the example I’m being able to set of, of discourse, and I’m so thankful for that, but it comes primarily from the example of Jesus Christ and watching. I often. Pray about it and think about it and read about how how Jesus interacted with those who hated him and persecuted him and despitefully used him, right? And, and I am, I, I am so profoundly thankful for the example of Jesus Christ, for the profound teachings of Jesus Christ. Alma 12 talks about the greater portion and the lesser portion, and Jesus is the master teacher and when The Lord opens, cracks open the scripture so that we are enabled to be invited into the deeper portion to pray for that to be revealed to us. It is profound and glorious, and I am so thankful. For the um sacrifice of the savior. All of it, all of it, to do all of this on our behalf so that we are never alone. We are never left on our own to struggle and to carry our own burden in this life or our own burden of sin to make it possible. We have the doctrine of Jesus Christ because of Jesus Christ, right? It is everything that we are seeking in this life, at least it’s everything that I am seeking in this life, and I, there are no words for How important it is to me, how thankful I am, and how much I rely on the Lord, on the spirit of the Lord to guide me and on the love of Jesus Christ, that I’m so thankful when that shines through me, when I am filled. I, I’ll just say this in closing. I love the understanding that in the Bible, when, and I should know scripture verse when it says, we love him because he first loved us, we need to be seeking. The power to feel the love of God in our lives, because that’s the only way we can love God is when we are filled with the love of God, and then that love is reflected back onto God because the love of God is so overwhelming and so profound that it shoots back onto into God when we are blessed to feel God’s love. We love God. There’s no, there’s nothing else we can do. And that same love then goes out onto all of our fellow men. So the combination of we love Him because He first loved us combined with Jesus teaching us the two great laws and the commandments. Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. The only way we accomplish that is when we are filled with God’s love that then reflects back upon Him. And reflects on all of our fellow men. And I think that the, the fruit of the tree of um tree of life that Lehi was pursuing, right? The love of God to be filled with that. That is the first thing I think we are seeking in this life. We are seeking the Spirit of God and to develop that relationship with the Lord where we know the Spirit and we know the direction of the Spirit, which leads us on to the love of God. So I would invite everybody who Has not felt this and everybody who has, can you still feel it now to ask to be filled with the love of God, kneel and ask God. How God feels about you, how God loves you, and teach your children to do that. Teach your teenagers to seek to know God’s love for them in this life, cause that is what empowers everything else is the love of God and it is profound. And because I have felt the love of God, I cannot help but love God. And I hope that I can continue to reflect that love onto my fellow man with all of the ability that God empowers me with. And so that is, that is my testimony. I could not be more thankful for my savior, and the plan that has been laid out, the gospel that has been laid out. And the gift of empowerment that enables us to walk with God through this life, being instruments in his hands, being used to do the work that He will give us. It is a great and glorious thing that I think makes life have, makes life worth living. And so, I will say that in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. And I will close this live stream again. Thank you so much for joining us. Next week will be um the next panel with Whitney and Jeremy. We’re talking about a few more of Brian Hill’s claims. Where we have a lot coming up on this podcast, and I, I did. I got away for a week, left away, commute with the Lord in the mountains, and I’m hoping I am coming back feeling rejuvenated, ready to continue. So hopefully there will be much more to come. Thank you so much for joining us, and I will see you next time.
