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The second (and best) half of our first panel discussion on Brian Hales’ false claims and opaque “transparency.” We discuss Brian’s oft repeated claim that no leader (or “keyholder” LOL) ever said why God “commanded” polygamy.
There is an embarrassment of riches when choosing quotes to expose just how seriously false this claim is. It was amazing to see what we each came up with. Good stuff in this one!
I’m hoping Brian and others will take notice that lies will not stand. We take these and all other scriptures seriously:
“Therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness, wherein we know them; and they are truly manifest from heaven—
These should then be attended to with great earnestness.
Let no man count them as small things; for there is much which lieth in futurity, pertaining to the saints, which depends upon these things.” (D&C 123:13-15)
Links
Brigham Young, July 14, 1855: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, pp. 264-268
Erastus Snow October 4, 1857: Journal of Discourses, Volume 5, pp. 285-292
Heber C. Kimball Feb 1 1857 : Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, pp. 207-213
Brigham Young, July 6, 1862: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, pg. 322
Brigham Young, August 9 1868: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 12, pg. 261
John Taylor 1883: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 24, pg. 229
John Taylor Revelation Sept 27, 1886: Brian Hales paper
Joseph F. Smith, July 7, 1878: Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, pg. 28
George Q. Cannon November 16, 1884: Journal of Discourses, vol. 25, pp. 360-371
Brigham Young, August 19, 1866: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11 pg. 268
December 19, 1891 Petition for amnesty
Chapter Index
0:00 Intro
2:30 Polygamy damages marriages
10:05 Brian Hales: We don’t know why God commanded polygamy
20:15 Orson Pratt’s reasons for polygamy
25:10 Prostitution or polygamy?
42:45 Brigham Young’s reasons for polygamy
50:00 Polygamy required for exaltation?
59:50 Erastus Snow: a woman’s lord is her husband?
1:02:20 Heber C. Kimball: thousands of wives!
1:03:50 Brigham Young: monogamy is no part of heaven
1:09:30 Brigham Young: polygamy for moral salvation of world
1:11:15 Joseph F. Smith: polygamy essential for highest blessings
1:16:00 George Q. Cannon: few righteous men, so we need polygamy?
1:18:00 Bloodlines
1:19:29 Q12, John Taylor: polygamy necessary to salvation
1:32:51 Brian Hales’ narrative destroys faith
1:34:25 Final thoughts
Transcript
[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 problems revisiting Mormon polygamy. And I am so excited for you to all be able to see. Part two of my amazing conversation with Whitney and Jeremy, two brilliant scholars of Joseph Smith’s polygamy who I have learned so much from, I have learned so much from both of these people. And I love when we get to sit down and engage with each other. And it’s all that much better when we get to expose bad false faith, destroying narratives as we have been able to do in this conversation. And as I hope we will be able to do many times in the future going forward. So again, I want to thank those who donate to help make this podcast possible. And I want to again, invite anybody else to please consider if that’s something you could do, really, I cannot tell you how many hours go into this and how many costs file up around it so we really could use some help. That would be, that would be very deeply appreciated. And another huge thank you to Whitney and Jeremy. And here it is part two of our conversation about Brian Hills.
[01:13] Whitney Horning: I think we’ve all sacrificed and suffered tremendously. But what we have gained exactly is the truth. We have gained ultimately a peace deep within ourselves that we understand the nature of God and we never had before. That, that is something we can trust in. And I think ultimately, as we shed false traditions, our burdens become lighter. You know, we turn that over to the Lord and we can, you know, I I’m 100% with you Michelle. I’ve been saying this since I wrote my book, we need to put polygamy right into the dung pile where blood atonement and um blacks and the priesthood belong. And thank God, the church has done that with those. But come on, let’s, let’s get Brigham’s last pile of gun scooped out of the barn and thrown onto the heat.
[02:08] Michelle: We are told that we want our faith founded on the rock of Jesus Christ. And I think all of us would agree that this, this process is a wonderful one to go through to go from a sandy foundation to a foundation on the rock that is indescribably more profound, more connected to God.
[02:29] Jeremy Hoop: This has been, for me, it’s been an um extremely helpful in my marriage.
[02:37] Michelle: Oh, yes, I love when you brought that up.
[02:39] Jeremy Hoop: It’s, it’s, it’s helped me to, to, to view marriage differently. Um It’s helped me to, to, to, to elevate the sanctity of marriage. Well, beyond what it ever was in, uh in my understanding, it’s helped me to understand the law of chastity. See, one of the, one of the issues with this, with this deal is when people lose their faith, it also completely destroys their understanding of the law of chastity. And because they think Joseph Smith was doing it and everybody’s doing it, we’re all doing it, we just do it, just do it and they just do it. And the problem is they, they re, they reap the whirlwind. And I was in the single world for a while and I saw that, I saw how that was and I, and it, it’s, it’s a train wreck, it’s a train wreck. And when you, for me having a clear understanding of what Joseph Smith did, what he did not do and, and the sanctity of marriage, the eternity of the marriage covenant and what we’re to aspire to, I believe it’s helped me to regard my wife in a way that I didn’t have the, I didn’t have the understanding to do prior to this. And so I’m really grateful to Joseph Smith for what he taught about marriage. What he opened up, the principle of eternal marriage was radical back then. And it frankly still is today, even the principle that he taught is quite unique and actually somewhat different, if not very different from what we are actually taught today in the church. And, and it bears, I think, thorough investigation and for me. It’s precious.
[04:16] Whitney Horning: Thank you for saying that. I think I was gonna also say this similar thing that Vern had no idea. I mean, he’s, I’ve been very lucky and blessed that he’s been 100% committed to me since we got married. But he didn’t know that I deep inside was grappling with this idea of because we are still a polygamous church. The LDS church believes in polygamy in the next life. And so very much that if you know, you, you attain to the Sasha Kingdom, your husband is gonna be given more wives, right? And so possibly, I mean, that’s a possibility. And so it always hangs over you if you want
[04:56] Michelle: full exaltation, right? That’s the right. I mean, you can limit your exaltation with what you’re willing to receive.
[05:03] Whitney Horning: Yes. And so for me, this has also done the same thing as Jeremy saying for him, I mean, Vern had no idea how much polygamy had in a lot of ways, was keeping me from fully trusting and committing to him. And once we were able to just sweep that out of our marriage and sweep it, you know, completely clean it out like he’s always been, I just didn’t fully trust that because, you know, I figured someday he would be adding to our family with other women. And so it is totally deepened our relationship and then more profound and, and our trust and everything. And he’s so often one of the best things we did was to read Carolyn Pearson’s book, Ghost of Eternal Polygamy. Because he was able to see, I wasn’t the only woman out there who had these things hanging over me. You know, it was a really good book that we read together out loud and discussed. And so I would recommend that to any man out there who cares about his marriage and wants to know what his wife might be feeling. But one of my favorite things is to get messages from men who read my book and say, thank you so much. I am a better husband now. I mean, it’s just beautiful to me. It’s just, it’s the sanctity of marriage and, and that we, you know, and it’s, to me it’s like almost like this du when we read the scriptures and it starts off with a man and a woman and God saying Cleve unto each other and none else. And we’ve had that for thousands of years and, and it’s just, it’s that simple. So I,
[06:46] Jeremy Hoop: I would like to pause and have the audience for those who are, who, who are believing or who have some uh some, some emphasis on a spiritual life. I wanna ask you to ask yourself how the thought of one man and one woman united eternally, they alone with no interruption from anyone else. OK? How that sits in your soul versus one man with 17, with 24 with 57 with 1000 wives, ask yourself, find within yourself the spirit and ask the spirit if that is true or false, that’s good. Now, by the way, that’s my appeal to spirituality. That’s not the, that’s not a historical analysis. That’s merely, that’s merely uh uh speaking to, to other fellow believers. Those of you who are not believers, you’re not gonna like that, but ask yourself that question and, and, and see where the spirit takes you,
[08:02] Michelle: right? And the other thing I’ll just add because we are on this point of kind of the emotional and spiritual impact of these beliefs, right, of these false traditions. And the other thing I, I love that you guys brought this up. Thank you going to our scriptures and being able to actually read them, believe them, see them. I, I mean, it talks about the skills of darkness needing to fall away from our eyes. We are told both in third Nephi and in doctrine and covenants, someone will remind me which section it is. Um I have a million going to mind but that we are under condemnation for taking lightly what we have received for not believing the scriptures,
[08:38] Jeremy Hoop: for Mormon, for not believing the book of Mormon. Precisely. And what was, why was Leigh led out of Jerusalem? He was led out of polygamy because
[08:48] Michelle: of that. It’s, it’s, it’s incredible. So, so we are not aware of how deeply this is impacting us in our progression to God in the purposes of the church, both as a whole and as individuals because we have no control over what the church as a whole does. And I would never want to, you know, claim, claim to give direction to any anybody outside of my stewardship. However, as individuals, the more of us that awaken to this, that has an effect, that has an impact. And that’s what I’m, I’m trying to help people see is that there is so much more that we are blind to when we believe these false traditions. So it’s worth engaging. So, ok, we have one more topic. We only were able to just choose a couple of topics because we really wanted to be able to discuss them. And Jeremy, I’m hoping you can stick around a little bit longer. I know you have to go back. This is an ok, good. This is an important topic. So I had a list just from this one episode a mile long that we were trying to decide what can we address. And this is the one we decided to address today. But no, this is far from the only one. Just we want to be able to do an adequate and thorough job of really addressing Brian Hall’s claims so that we don’t leave anything on the table. Well, we’re gonna leave a lot. We can’t even begin to get all of the sources to this claim. But I think we’ve got a pretty good selection between the three of us. So I’ll go ahead. I only have a few short clips for this claim. And then I think we’re going to have quite a discussion about it because this is one that Brian Hills makes often. I have, I’ve collected just short statements from three different um podcasts. He’s been on one of which is mine. So let me introduce this. Next Clayton.
[10:25] Brian Hales: God had commanded them to enter into it and he never told us why he wanted it. We can, we can make guesses. I think if we pray about this, we can come to understand it enough to not worry about it. But since we don’t have the details, we would like, uh I don’t think anybody fully understands why God did it. No one ever told us why there’s reasons why it could be permitted but why it was commanded is, is beyond any statement of any key holder that I’m aware of. So,
[10:53] Michelle: so those were his two statements in this episode about God never. We were never given reasons for polygamy. Let me play two other clips from two other shows.
[11:01] Brian Hales: If we ask the question, why did Joseph, why did God command Joseph to practice plural marriage? The answer is we don’t know. None of our prophets have ever told us why plural marriage was commanded between 1840 about 18
[11:17] Michelle: 90. And last one, for no
[11:19] Brian Hales: reason, that could be permitted, but we don’t have any declaration from Joseph Brigham, any of the leaders why Joseph taught that it was commanded between the early 18 forties and then Wilfred Woodruff taught it was no longer commanded in 1890.
[11:33] Michelle: Oh, ok. That’s interesting. I wanna come back to that. So, in talking about the reasons for polygamy, I just read reread um Orson Pratt’s speech from the 1852 special conference they had where they revealed section one, well, what became Section 132? And, um, and in that he does outline reasons and, and so I guess what I’m finding these are the things that I find so problematic or confusing because his reasons are so different from any reasons we would recognize or give today.
[12:08] Brian Hales: I don’t quote them. I don’t know if you want to push back against Orson Pratt. Go ahead, but I’m not going to defend him. So I don’t, I don’t quote him in my trilogy. I think some of those ideas are ridiculous and,
[12:21] Michelle: uh, pretty bad.
[12:22] Brian Hales: Yeah. Yeah. And I don’t, I don’t blame anybody for being offended by some of those ideas. They, they weren’t kind to, to women,
[12:29] Michelle: I think. So. It’s strange to me that we, we believe their testimonies of it and their reasons for it. But, I mean, I mean, we, we reject those but then we keep the teaching and then kind of come up with our own reasons for it. Does that do you get what I’m saying? Does that trouble you at all?
[12:48] Brian Hales: Well, I don’t think there’s any official teaching. Now, you could say Orson Pratt was an apostle and speaking in a special general conference. So that’s, that’s pretty big deal. Yeah, that’s canonized scripture. But if you look at what’s, or what is authoritative teachings in the church, it really falls down because it’s not repeated. It’s certainly not in our day. Um,
[13:11] Michelle: I think it was repeated often in that day. Many of those. Yeah. But, but that’s what we are talking about. OK. So I think we get the idea that Brian Hills, his universal claim seems to be that no leaders ever said why this was required. Would you guys agree?
[13:32] Jeremy Hoop: No, no key holder. This is how he, this is how he slithers out of it.
[13:37] Michelle: I want to clarify something. Did you catch on my podcast? Which was what a year and a half ago? He said, leader, he said, leader, I pushed back and I brought up Orson Pratt. So he’s, he acknowledged that he omitted Orson Pratt from his work, which is a big omission because he doesn’t like it. And then he tries to minimize it. And then after that, he started saying key holder, I think these are the important things to recognize that this is the, this is the degree of. So he, he forever was saying, leader, no leader ever said it. He said that in the s unscripted episode that I played that was before mine and he said it in mine. But once I pushed back and brought up Orson Pratt, who he knew about and had been dishonest about and, you know, as a transparent says, chose not to include because he didn’t like it. Um, a transparency is right, then he goes on and just changes the wording but making the same claim and it’s still wrong. So I, I that was important to bring all of that up. I think
[14:36] Jeremy Hoop: by the way, I hope, I hope we don’t get the word key holder into the universal lexicon because I think that’s a really, really stupid way to call people who are at the head of a dispensation as though all of us are just a bunch of keyholes and we just need the appropriate key holder.
[14:52] Michelle: I’m trying to remember, isn’t it from Ghostbusters? Is it the um the the key holder and the gatekeeper? Am I
[15:00] Keymaster of Gozer: right? I am Vince Vince Clotho, key master of Goer. Are you the gatekeeper?
[15:06] Michelle: So right. We’re not, maybe I’m getting it a little wrong, but that’s what it reminds me of. This is in Ghostbusters. Let’s do, let’s do better. And I have never read the word key holder in um the scriptures in the doctrine of covenants. I haven’t found it right. So I, I’ve
[15:21] Jeremy Hoop: never heard any other person in the church refer to these people as key holders. So Brian Come on.
[15:27] Whitney Horning: Yeah.
[15:28] Michelle: Well, and also uh would, would Brian approve of, I know that he in his recent appearance trying to silence me, took great issue with me just pointing out that um Eldra Cook at a meeting turned the question over to a female historian instead of addressing it herself. He, he thinks that’s grounds for me to be excommunicated. That’s an apostle. But all of a sudden he can throw out, he can say I’m not gonna defend Orson Pratt speaking at general conference. That is, it’s kind of scripture, but I’m not gonna defend it like, well, let’s
[16:01] Whitney Horning: get some. Wouldn’t that be cherry picking your sources? Well, because let’s face it. If you actually anyone who’s a polygamy apologist actually out loud, read their reasons. It’s pretty abhorrent. So
[16:19] Jeremy Hoop: I’d like to hear
[16:20] Whitney Horning: it. Well, first, I just want to say any anyone who goes to seminary, I mean, seminary kid immediately can tell you, oh, I thought God commanded it to raise up seed,
[16:34] Michelle: right?
[16:35] Whitney Horning: Because that’s is interpreted by all of the leaders slash key holders of the church. I mean, I thought that was why there is a polygamy loophole. If God wants to raise up seed, he’ll command it
[16:52] Michelle: and to take care of the widows, right? It was, it was to raise up seed and take care because you know, you can’t possibly get, take care of widows and orphans without making them sleep with you. That that doesn’t work at all
[17:04] Whitney Horning: since you brought up widows, what are the widows gonna do? I
[17:09] Jeremy Hoop: just wandering around the streets begging for bread. They need a warm bed.
[17:13] Whitney Horning: That’s right. Right. So I just have to say that I was researching something yesterday of Violet Kimball and Helen Mar Kimball wrote a story about her dad when he first heard a polygamy. He thought about these two dear old sisters pitkin who he figured since had never been married. Yeah, he was gonna have to marry him. But to his delight, the Lord gave them the young attractive Sarah PK Noon instead. So wait, I thought we were taking care of the widow. Sarah Pek Noon was actually married. He actually had a husband who actually they were pretty wealthy and doing fine. So the two old elderly destitute sisters, uh but oh yay God took mercy on Heber and gave him a young attractive woman instead. Fertile. She was married.
[18:07] Michelle: Can I refer back to a word we discussed earlier in this podcast? Which was presents, right? And all of these depth ex explanations that we now have for polygamy are absolutely nothing but present. We for the past since eight, since about 1910 or whatever it was. We’ve been extremely uncomfortable with our polygamous past. So we’ve tried to come up with any reason to justify and excuse it away. Right? Are now, I will just say Jeremy Whitney and I have spent some time digging up the sources of why polygamy was commanded from both main key holders and like key ring grabbers. Is that what the rest of them?
[18:51] Jeremy Hoop: We have quotes from the key holder because Brian, Brian will only accept the right, but I
[18:57] Michelle: we have others as well because he also said that the reason he can throw Orson Pratt out is because it wasn’t repeated, which it just isn’t true. So, OK, I think Whitney is going to go ahead and start with Orson Pratt because I think it’s a very good place to start and then we’ll turn the time over. It’s a very good, I know. And then, um, Jeremy, we’ll follow up with um, Brigham Young, some quotes from Brigham Young and then I’ll have some additional ones that I’ve dug up that I haven’t used on my program before. I do want to say we dug these up. They’re not comprehensive. You cannot, you cannot do a comprehensive, we cannot give, don’t think you’re hearing these and therefore, you know, everything that was said, justifying the reasons for polygamy. You can, it’s too much. It was, it was the church, it was
[19:49] Jeremy Hoop: Brian and Fair Latter day, Saint Fair, latter day saint ought to put this in their arguments just if you might want to include these in your little explanations of, did Jose did, was polygamy ever required for exultation, blah, blah, blah. You might want to include this stuff
[20:03] Michelle: in your face destroying explanations because I think fair latter day saint is the one source that’s maybe led more people out of the church than even the gospel topics, essays or rough stone rolling or those other things. So, um yes, let’s, let’s go ahead and start the reason that Orson Pratt matters so much among all of the other reasons that he was an apostle speaking in conference. He was assigned by Brigham Young. So he was assigned by the president of the church with the president of church sitting there yelling, amen as he was speaking to do what
[20:30] Jeremy Hoop: I think to do what to give to give. No, no to give the rationale behind why it was given.
[20:37] Michelle: That’s, that’s what I’m saying. Like Brigham Young, when he wanted the people to understand why there needed to be polygamy. He assigned Orson Pratt to do it. That’s an important thing to understand when you want to say I’m not going to defend him. Well, you better, you better accept that these are your reasons. So, ok, Whitney,
[20:54] Whitney Horning: you. So 1852 is when it’s um officially publicly announced from the Tabernacle in Salt Lake Orson. Pratt does the announcement and the majority of his talk focused on the constitutionality, uh polygamy because they believed that if they could prove that it was constitutional and a religious right, that then they could practice it without the government breathing down their necks. So after he does that, Brigham sends him to Washington DC and he has the assignment to um write the periodical that they called the Seer and dedicated to Joseph Smith. So anyone out there who wants to say, oh, it’d be a big conspiracy to pin this on Joseph right there. We have ample proof that they named it the Seer to try and look like Joseph Smith had taught these things. So Orson Proud becomes, right? So Orson Proud becomes the editor of it and these are just some of the few little gems I didn’t. This is not a comprehensive list. If you want to go have a day of reading and make sure you have your throw up bucket next to you, go read this here in its entirety.
[22:06] Michelle: And I do just let me point out because I don’t know if you’re going to do that original 1852 over the pulpit sermon. Many of these were included in that if you, you know, I don’t, I don’t know if you have some of those, but so it’s not that you can’t say, oh, it was only written in this year. It wasn’t speak. I mean, all of these little ways that people have a finagling out of it. No, these things were said in that initial special conference as signed by the president of the church to for an apostle to say over the pulpit at the congregation and then followed up by a publication, right?
[22:40] Whitney Horning: Yeah, I still give it. So I’m gonna do I didn’t do 1852 because I think we’ve covered that before. So I’m doing this year and then in 1859 talk he gives over the pulpit. So there we go. If the latter day saints refuse to obey the law of a multiplicity of wives, they cannot be saved and will be damned point. Number two, polygamy is commanded in order that God’s people might raise up seed to the Lord.
[23:10] Michelle: Ok. So that first quote, any time that someone says it was never said because Brian always says it was never said that it was required. That’s something we’re always told right there.
[23:21] Whitney Horning: Even for exultation. Yet this is just saved, period
[23:25] Michelle: to avoid damnation, to avoid being damned. And you’ve got to have
[23:28] Whitney Horning: a multiplicity of
[23:29] Jeremy Hoop: wives. Hebrew said the same thing.
[23:32] Whitney Horning: Yeah, in order to keep the commandment to multiply and replenish a man must have more than one wife. So Prague goes through this whole long um uh theses on Adam and Eve, Adam, yes, he only had Eve. Um He admits it, Adam only had Eve as one wife, but he says beginning with Jacob who was renamed Israel. We see. So it’s interesting. He skips over Abraham. He goes straight to right. We see that a man who has more than one wife can more easily keep that first commandment to multiply and replenish. But all women women, you can only have one husband because if a woman had a plurality of husbands. It would in all probability, frustrate the great design of marriage and prevent her from raising up a family. As a plurality of husbands would not facilitate the increase of posterity. Such a principle never was tolerated in scripture, but a plurality of wives would be the means of greatly increasing a family and of thus fulfilling the command, not only to a far greater extent on the part of the husband, but also on the part of the females who otherwise might have been under the necessity of remaining single forever. So this is where he starts into the women who, you know, aren’t, aren’t gonna ever get married. So let’s hear what he thinks about the women who will never get married. Polygamy helps keep men and women virtuous without polygamy, women are destined to become prostitutes and men are destined to visit them. Polygamy keeps men from committing adultery. So in other words, all you men, you want to run around commit adultery, let’s just call them your wives. And now you’re not sinning if you want to prostitute yourselves out because there’s nothing else you can do. I mean, if you’re not married by 18, that’s your destiny, right?
[25:47] Michelle: Oh my gosh. And can we just go ahead,
[25:49] Jeremy Hoop: Jeremy, what about half of Brigham’s wives who he didn’t support, you know, or, or they divorced him? I mean,
[25:57] Michelle: this
[25:58] Jeremy Hoop: is
[25:58] Michelle: a, I still encounter this argument all the time. This is the common argument with polygamists. There are two kinds of men, polygamists or adulterers. That’s it. They, they reject the notion that like that’s their comparison always. So it so darkens their mind that they can’t even consider that there could be a faithful man that as God commanded men to be, they don’t even think that exists or is a possibility, which
[26:26] Whitney Horning: I, so this 0.4 actually is in a thesis to the Christian world. But Orson Pratt is shaming them saying, oh, you all say you’re virtuous, monogamous. But we know you have all your mistresses and you visit the whore houses and you do all this stuff. And since it’s in secret, you think you’re getting away with it. Well, we’re better than you because we marry our prostitutes, we call ours wives and we don’t do it in secret anymore. Now that it’s out in Utah, we have relationships, we just slap on the label wife and now we’re better than you Christian men who think you’re monogamous. That’s literally in this so point number five. And like I said, this is only a few of them that I went through and picked out the father of spirits, commands his friends. So I guess if, if you don’t get a commandment to take more than one wife, you’re not a friend to God. Um He commands his friends to marry a plurality of wives in order that the precious jewels from heaven may be educated in the law of righteousness and in due time, safely return to the bosom of their heavenly parents. He goes on and says the reason in Jacob two, it is clear in Jacob two that polygamy is denied no polygamy only monogamy. It is clear. But that’s because the meat bits were righteous and all the Children born to them would be raised up in righteousness. But Bergeman Heber and Orson, oh, we’re surrounded by wicked men who wouldn’t raise their Children in righteousness. And since they were more righteous, they had to take on more wives, so all of their Children would be raised in righteousness because they could do it. Right.
[28:30] Michelle: So, or is it Pratt admits that there is no polygamy loophole? That’s incredible. I didn’t know that.
[28:36] Whitney Horning: Well, I mean, he’s, you know, he talks in circles because then he says, well, he wanted to raise up seed. But in the book of Mormon, they were commanded not to do it. But that’s because all the men were righteous. So
[28:50] Michelle: whichever one he needs at the moment, just like Brigham Young, was he the inventor of polygamy? Or he learned it from Joseph, depending on what he needed at the moment.
[28:57] Whitney Horning: Ok. Right. So then we have single women of the church. So all these single women of the church can never obtain a fullness of glory without being married to a righteous man. Therefore, being a second or third or 10th wife is better than being single or being married to an unbeliever. Now, I wanna just stop right there because Hiram Smith was the second president and prophet of the church. Hiram Smith sent out a letter in like 1842 or 1843 telling the saints to stop leaving their unbelieving spouses to remain with them. And he quotes Paul, which is in the Bible saying the belief, the unbelieving spouse will be sanctified by the believing spouse. And now here we’ve got Brigham and his people now saying, oh, if your spouse is a non-believer, leave them and come marry someone who’s a believer and a righteous man. And oh, by the way, if he has more keys, then you can and, and hire priesthood, then for sure, that’s who you want because then you’re gonna get a higher exaltation, right? And then their final and then his final reason was because females outnumbered males. So I did a little Googling of the census in 18 fifties, Utah and males far outnumbered females. So just, you know, interesting there. So then Orson Pratt gets up in July 24th, 1859 in the Salt Lake Timber Kac and gives a sermon titled Polygamy. And these are some of the gems from that has God or any of his holy prophets ever condemned polygamy. We have no information of that kind on record except what we find in the book of Mormon. So again, acknowledging the book m there, it was positively forbidden to be practiced by the ancient Nephites. But even that sacred book makes an exception in substance as follows. Except I the Lord command my people. Oh my gosh, the wife. This is a great one. This is a great little quote from that talk. The wife becomes one flesh with her husband. When she presents herself to the man and gives herself to him with an everlasting covenant, she becomes his flesh, his property, his wife, as much so as the flesh and bone of his own body should have been so gross. No wonder
[31:46] Michelle: more of us have so much hang up with like sex and stuff. You know, like you can’t be in the building together. You can’t work in a call together like we’ve just made it so uncomfortable for so long.
[31:55] Jeremy Hoop: Is that why World Richards was 300 pounds?
[31:58] Whitney Horning: No,
[32:00] Jeremy Hoop: it, I, they all got a little, they all became a little corpulent in their practice.
[32:06] Whitney Horning: Yes. Yes. There’s a tiktok out there. My daughter sent to me about this couple who is currently practicing polygamy and they’re probably in their early mid twenties and the husband starts giving this, this weird convoluted thing about every woman that you’re with. She becomes part of your very DNA.
[32:28] Reality TV Polygamist: I think we just thought it was wrong and evil because that’s how we were raised. But we search the scriptures for years and we can’t say it’s wrong. It’s a reflection of Jesus in his church because a lot of the scriptures, the terms where it says he fills you with the Holy Ghost. It’s actually a sexual term. It actually means like sperm going into like intimacy that way. You know, when a man and a woman become one, his DNA becomes part of her, it actually goes into her brain and she becomes one with him.
[33:02] Whitney Horning: But the wife just kind of keeps getting further and further away from her husband and she’s just like, just like abhorred, like, listen and you can tell she’s just like, honey, just, just shut up right now. I
[33:12] Jeremy Hoop: don’t want to intermingle my DNA with you.
[33:16] Michelle: That’s so symbolic of what polygamy does. The wife just has to get further and further and further away. It’s like, that’s exactly what Jeremy was like. Are we unifying marriages? Polygamy makes a mockery of marriage. It truly does. Ok.
[33:30] Whitney Horning: You still have a few more good ones. Should a young man who marries a widow who had previously been married for eternity miss out on eternal marriage. No polygamy gives him wives. He can have an eternity. So that’s got a whole long paragraph. And it kind of goes to, oh, what Griffiths was it James or Jay Griffiths that you interviewed that said he married a woman whose husband had died, right? And the church very much teaches that if a woman’s been sealed and her husband dies and the next husband, sorry, you could have Children with her. But those Children are all gonna be the first husbands. And pratt goes into that whole explanation in this and says, but that’s ok. Polygamy solves the problem. Yeah, he won’t be with his first wife, but he can be with all the others. So let him have a lot of wives and you know that solves that problem shall a young moral virtuous woman because she does not find a young man that is suitable to her nature or worthy of her. Shall she be deprived of this exaltation in the eternal world because of the gentile laws of modern Christendom. No,
[34:39] Michelle: we’re just thinking about the good of the women
[34:42] Whitney Horning: the latter day saints believe otherwise, we believe that woman is just as good as man if she does as well. Cause remember now she’s his property. So you better keep sweet and obey if a good man is entitled to a kingdom of glory to a reward and crown and has the privilege of swaying a scepter in the eternal world, a good woman is entitled to the same and should be placed by his side and have the privilege of enjoying all the glory, honor and blessings that are bestowed upon her lord and husband. If she cannot get any lord or husband through whom she can trust herself for exultation to that glory, who can blame her for going into a family where she thinks she will be secure. So there we go. Right. That exaltation, if she doesn’t think her husband can get it for her, she’s free to just, and that’s just a good old wife swapping so I can just jump on over to my next door neighbor, Bob because he’ll get me exalted.
[35:48] Michelle: It. Also, it also touches into something that I want to make explicit that the polygamist teaching was truly that the man and this is still taught by the, if you want to understand what the early Mormon polygamist taught, look at most current polygamists, it’s the exact same doctrine. And what they truly believe is that the man is the savior to his wives and his Children. A woman has to attach herself to a man. He will call her up from her grave. She’s dependent on her husband to be redeemed from the dead and to be let exalted whatev whatever we want to say, right? This is why I don’t wanna, but why I, I, you know, it was a lovely experience when I was 20 went through the temple the first time and they had to change it all up so my husband could bring me my fiance. I only went to through the temple right before I got married. So my fiance could bring me through the veil. That’s what that is symbolic of is that you, you are dependent on your husband in a way that you’re my husband is not dependent on you. I know they try to explain it like, well, the man needs the woman and the woman needs the man. And I have a quote that I want to address about that. But that’s what I want to like. Truly, the polygamist idea was that the man is God. If the woman attaches herself to the man, she can be saved and all of the Children they have is their kingdom that will worship the man. The woman is the vehicle to give the man his glory, right? And anyway, does that make sense to? I know you guys are, but I wanted to just really explain it to people
[37:16] Whitney Horning: that goes back to Martha Brotherton’s letter back in Nauvoo who says that Brigham tried to convince her that um those that polygamy was like this new thing and those women who accepted it first would get exalted higher than others.
[37:33] Michelle: So, multilevel marketing, multilevel
[37:37] Whitney Horning: marketing and
[37:40] Jeremy Hoop: part of this part of the nefarious um aspect of this is they taught openly. Um Van Van Wagner writes about this, I believe in um uh uh an essay he wrote on Sydney Rigdon that um they consider gentile marriages of null and void. They, they, they had no force in the eternities. And therefore all married women who had been married in a gentile marriage were as though they were single. And because these, because these men believe themselves to be their uh their potential saviors, they would go to these married women and say your husband cannot save you, but I can’t. So, and it doesn’t even matter if you divorce him because that marriage doesn’t count. Just come with me for a time. We’ll live secretly when we go, wherever we go, we’ll be open, but for a time we’ll live. So I’ll take care of you. That’s exactly what Hebrew Kimball did with Sarah Peek Noon. William Noon was an elder in the church. They say he was an abusive alcoholic. That’s the excuse they made years later. We have no evidence for that. Ok. Other than what people said later, he was an elder on the records of the church with his elder certificate in Nauvoo. Ok. So he took this woman from her husband saying I’m going to be your savior. This is exactly what William Clayton would do. He would go around to women proposing to be their savior like
[39:04] Michelle: Jeremy. Don’t forget it did save him from having to marry the older women like God was giving him a gift, right? Like, yeah. And it’s exactly what partly Pratt did as well. That’s how partly Pratt died. He was an abusive, he got killed by the husband that
[39:23] Jeremy Hoop: yeah. And by the way, Brian, by the way, Brian, Brian, you should sometime deal with polyandry under Brigham Young, you try to deal with it with Joseph Smith. You don’t, you just uh it’s ok. But, but with Brigham Young, you never touch it because it, it’s verifiable. It happened they, they, they married other men’s wives. They never divorced, they had Children with them. What’s the deal?
[39:44] Michelle: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Ok.
[39:46] Whitney Horning: So just the last one is Christians are unenlightened and stuck in old traditions of monogamy. Mormons are the progressive enlightened ones who boldly embrace a plurality of wives. These are some of the reasons in favor of polygamy do not be so much bound down by the creeds of men in public opinion as not to be free enough to investigate for yourselves. And when you find a true principle, embrace it, however, you may be condemned by mankind, lay hold of it. It will do you good and no harm.
[40:25] Michelle: OK. OK. Like we got plenty of reasons for Morrison Pratt and just, I wanted to just include, I know we’ve talked about it before, but just this one little snippet from the 1852 because it’s my favorite one. This is just my favorite one to quote. He says, whom adultery and fornication have cursed the nation of the earth for many generations and are increasing fearfully upon the community. But they must be entirely done away from those who call themselves the people of God. How is this to be prevented? For? We have got a fall in nature to grapple with so it can’t be prevented by being good men by being good people, right? We’ve got to fall in nature to grapple with. It is to be prevented in the way the Lord devised in ancient times that is by giving his faithful servants those faithful servants who couldn’t avoid whore houses, right? Because of their fallen nature, by giving his faithful servants a plurality of wives, by which a numerous and faithful posterity can be raised up and taught in the principles of righteousness and truth. And then he goes on, that’s one of the reasons in that initial 1852 sermon and he has several others. I think that one is like just delightfully awful, unbelievably bad.
[41:37] Jeremy Hoop: So you, so you take, you take Alma’s admonition to bridle all your passions and you just throw that out because it doesn’t matter because your passions are part of you. It’s just your fallen nature and God has provided the way for you do not have to bridle your passions because all you have to do is go take another wife and another wife and you get bored of her. You take another wife and when you need novelty, you take another wife and it doesn’t matter if she’s married or single, you just take another wife.
[42:02] Michelle: No, it’s, it’s, it’s unbelievable. It’s unbelievably bad. So OK, I think we have a pretty good snippet from Orson Pratt. We have several others we could share. But as we said, we can’t be comprehensive. And I like that you brought those that were actually published as an official publication of the church, right? Like this here is he was, he went on. Um
[42:27] Whitney Horning: Yeah, he was in Washington DC to try and convince the Christians to enter into polygamy and embrace it so that then Congress would lay off their case and allow them to practice it.
[42:40] Michelle: Ok? Thank you so much Whitney for sharing all of those. And now let’s go ahead and I think Jeremy, are you, are you covering um Brigham Young for us? I’m just not gonna say the key holder. I was gonna, I’m just not gonna say that word. It’s silly. Ok. So you’ve got Brigham Young, the president of the church as if the Apostle on assignment by the president of the church is not valid. Ok.
[43:04] Jeremy Hoop: So the, the one who had the right to dictate to all Israel, the one who had the keys over all the dispensation, the one who could bind and seal et cetera, et cetera. Um Bri Brian, this is for you. This is from Brigham Young. This is in the 1852 sermon. He says this is Brigham. It was well known in Joseph’s days that he had more than one wife, one of the Southerners in Congress knew it very well. I believe he is referring to Stephen a Douglas, I believe, did he oppose it? No, but he has been our friend all the day long, especially upon that subject. He said pointedly to his friends, speaking of the Senator, if the United States do not adopt that very method, let them continue as they now are pursue the precise course that they’re not pursuing and it will come to this that their generations will not live until they are 30 years old. They’re going to destruction. Disease is spreading so fast among the inhabitants of the United States that they are born rotten with it. And in a few years they are gone. Said he Joseph has introduced the best plan for restoring and establishing strength and life A long life among men of any man on earth. And the Mormons are a very good and virtuous people. OK. So first uh e explanation for why it was given Brian was that it was a good check on disease. OK. Number one.
[44:19] Michelle: And, and the monogamy would ensure that you would all be rotten with, you’d be rotten
[44:25] Jeremy Hoop: with something in the po for whatever reason. And I think we, and we’ll find out why here in a moment in 1854 October 6th General conference or anyone wondering if this is just an off the cuff remark or if it’s prepared for the body of the Saints? Brigham Young says the following Paul knowing by observation and his own experience, the temptations that were continually thrown before the elders. By the way, he’s commenting on how Paul says a bishop should have one wife. OK? One wife. What Paul says, this is his explanation of that scripture. Paul knowing by observation of his own experience, the temptations that were continually thrown before the elders gave instructions paramount to this before you hadda ordain a person to be a bishop to take the charge of a branch in any one district or place. See that he has a wife to begin with. He did not say but one wife, it does not read so, but he must have one to begin with in order that he may not be continually drawn into temptation while he is in his line of his duty, visiting the houses of widows. Because of course, you can, you cannot restrain yourself. You can’t restrain yourself when you’re visiting the house of a widow. Come on visiting the house of widows. No, I know, I know the poor and the afflicted the sick in his ward. He is to converse with family. Sometimes upon family matters, you can get into those delicate things and you know what happens. You know what happens when you start talking about those family matters and care for them. But if he has no wife, he is not so capable of taking care of a family as he otherwise would be. And perhaps he is not capable of taking care of himself. I don’t, I don’t know what he means by that. Um Now select a young man who has preserved himself in purity and holiness, one who has carried himself circumspectly before the people and before God, it would not do to ordain him to the office of a bishop for he may be drawn into temptation and he lacks experience in family matters. But take a man who has one wife, at least a man of experience, like thousands of elders, men of strength of mind who have determination in them to preserve themselves pure, under all circumstances at all times and in all places in their wards. Now, Timothy selects such a man to be a bishop. And let me add parenthetically, if he’s got 15 wives, he’ll be bulletproof. So Brigham didn’t say that last part.
[46:48] Michelle: He won’t possibly be shopping. The thing. That’s so ironic. Lust builds lust, right? It’s the men with many wives who are always shopping, who are always checking people up, up and down. There are so many stories of polygamous men with how they look at teenage girls. It’s just like that’s what happens when
[47:04] Whitney Horning: you have a friend who’s a descendant of John D Lee. And she was telling me that she was reading his journal the other day and he, you know, had multiple wives in his forties, fifties, comes up to Farmington for a business trip and writes in his journal how he was struck by the beauty of the 16 year old walking down the street and couldn’t take his eyes off of her
[47:25] Jeremy Hoop: because you’re a perpetual bachelor, you’re always able to take another wife. And as Hebrew Kimmel would say, if we get to heaven, we only have a couple of wives or one wife, Joseph will say, come on up to us because I’ve got 1000 of them for you. You know, I mean, where’s the end to this? There is no end. And so they don’t have to restrain this ever, they never have to ever abide the law of chastity. Well, um, so point number one, it’s good to prevent disease. Point number two, it keeps the righteous servants of God from temptation. And point number three in 1866 this is in August 1866 in the bowery. Brigham says, if a woman wants to live with me as a wife, all right. But the law says you must not marry her and own her as your wife openly as the law stands, she could come to my home, she can come home to me. Not as my wife, you know, she can sweep my house, make my bed, help me to make the butter and cheese and share all my pleasure and wealth. I don’t know that that really happened. But the ceremony of marriage must not be performed. This is what is practiced in the outside world. From the president and his chair to the lowest dog whipper in the street that has means to obtain, they have their mistresses and thereby violate every principle of virtue, chastity and righteousness in the large cities of the East New York, Philadelphia, Washington, Cincinnati, Albany, Boston, et cetera clubs are formed composed of young men of those cities who pass in society as bachelors, instead of entering into the honorable state of marriage, they hire and support girls, they’re called prostitutes. If one of the young men in the club should get honorably married. He is at once rejected and his name is erased from the role. The members of those clubs have their girls here and there. But no binding contract exists between them either for time or eternity for this life or for that, which is to come, they are hired the same as you would hire a horse. You go out a few days for a ride, return again, put up your horse, pay down your money, you’re freed from all further responsibility, just like you do with the girls, you know, at the club, uh The Lord of Heaven and Earth frowns upon this sort of traffic, the constitution, every just law of the United States opposed to it. All honorable ladies and gentlemen in North and South America and all and in all the world should be ready to raise their voices against it in terms of indignation and disgust. The last time I was in the city of Lowell, there were 14,000 more females than males in that. In that one city. This is many years ago, they live and die in a single state and are forgotten. My heart breaks for the 14,000 women that is many years ago, they live and die in a single state and are forgotten. Have they filled the measure of their creation and accompanied the design in heaven, bringing them upon the earth. No, they have not. 2000 good God fearing men should go there and take to themselves seven wives. A piece is written in the Bible. In that day, seven women shall take hold of one man saying we will eat our bread. We’ll wear our own apparel. Only let us be called by the name to take away our approach. The government of the United States do not intend that the prophecy shall be fulfilled. And the Lord almighty means that it shall, do you not think that the Lord will conquer? I think you will and we are helping him. It is the decree of the Almighty that in the last days, seven women shall take hold of one man and be counseled and advised by him, be willing to spin their own wool, make their own clothing. Oh, how convenient. Uh And do everything they can, they can to earn their own living uh even more convenient. Uh And if they only bear his name and to take away their reproach, what is this order for? It’s for the resurrection. It’s not for this world. Huh? Interesting. I would not go across this. It is for the resurrection and the spirit of the Lord has come upon this people and upon the ladies especially to prepare the way for the fulfillment of his word. The female sex has been deceived so long and been trodden under foot of man so long that a spirit has come upon them and they want a place and a name and a head for the man is the head of the woman to lead her into the celestial kingdom of our father and God. So this one actually makes two points. Number one, Brian, just like Orson Pratt said, Brigham Young said, it’s gonna keep you from sleeping with hookers. OK. And number two, it’s going to lead the women into the celestial kingdom, right? OK. So Brian, that’s your key holder. Uh 1866. Um Same speech and this is the doozy. Now, this is actually this is a little different than the one that people are used to. This is from uh actually a new transcription by Lege Lege Purcell Carruth in 2009. Really interesting. And she adds a little bit more context from the pitman shorthand that was used at the time to record the speech. So this fills out a little bit of the understanding. I think it’s actually helpful. Cooed, I did not ask him for the revelation upon this subject. When that revelation was first read to me by Joseph Smith. I plainly saw the great trials and abuse of it that would be made by many of the elders and the trouble in the persecution that would bring upon this whole people, but the Lord revealed it and it was my business to accept it. Now, we as Christians desire to be saved in the Kingdom of God, we desire to attain to the possession of all the blessings. There. Uh There are for the most faithful man or people that ever lived upon the face of the earth, even Him who is said to be the father of the faithful Abraham of old. We wish to obtain all that F Abra Father Abraham obtained, I wish here to say to the elders of Israel and to all the members of this church and kingdom that it is in the hearts of many of them to wish that the doctrine of polygamy was not taught and practiced by us may be hard for many and especially for the ladies, sorry ladies, but it is no harder for them than it is for the gentlemen. Really, right. It is the will of the Lord. And I wish to say to you in all the world that if you desire with all your hearts to obtain the blessings which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamous at least in your faith. Now, by the way, this is where they stop and see, see, see, he, he just said that you, you just need to at least be a polygamist just in your, just in your faith. But
[53:36] Michelle: they even deny that. Now they even deny that now just so you know, they say that you don’t even have like
[53:41] Jeremy Hoop: no, I know, I know you don’t even have to believe it apparently. But Brigham says, you do want it or, or if you don’t believe at least in your faith, or you will come short of enjoying the salvation and the glory which Abraham has obtained. This is short of enjoying the salvation of the glory. Uh This is as true as that God as that God lives you who wish that there was no such thing in existence. If you have in your hearts to say, we will pass along in the church without obeying or submitting to it in our faith or believing this order. Because for aught, for aught that we know this community may be broken up yet and we may have lucrative offices offered to us. We will not therefore be polygamists lest we should fall into obtaining some earthly honor, character in office, et cetera. The man that has that in his heart and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son in celestial glory. Ok. So yeah, if you’re a unbelief, if you don’t believe in it, at least you’re not going to dwell on the presence of the father and son and glory. The only men who become gods, even the Sons of God are those who enter into polygamy, others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the father and the Son. But they cannot reign as kings in glory because they had blessings offered unto them and they refused to accept them. None will become angels to the devil except those who have sinned against the Holy Ghost. There exist many intermediate states be between the highest glory where God the Father dwells in the lowest kingdom among these kingdoms which are not kingdoms of glory in my, in my father’s house are many mansions. Now, this part’s critical to understand the last part. And I want to pause for a second and remember, I think it’s DNC 130 or 131 which didn’t come from Joseph Smith directly. It came from William Clayton’s journal that says in the celestial kingdom, there are what three degrees within the celestial kingdom. OK? So this is the little mind game that they play. So Brigham says, well, you, yeah, you might, there’s a mansion up there. It’s in the lower floor, but you’re good enough for the lower floor.
[55:49] Michelle: You’re on the first floor of the church history. That’s right.
[55:53] Jeremy Hoop: But, but there’s an express elevator to the top floor and I’m gonna tell you how you can get hooked up with that ride
[56:00] Whitney Horning: packet full of women.
[56:01] Jeremy Hoop: There exist many intermediate states between the highest glory where God the father dwells in the lowest kingdom among these kingdoms which are not kingdoms of glory in my father’s house are many mansions said, Jesus, the mansions in his father’s house are many and they are ready to receive the people of this world who have lived according to the best light they have and they contain all who have lived upon the earth from the beginning to this time. And they are capacious enough to receive all who will live to the end of time. John Wesley and other great ecclesiastical reformers could not attain to the glory by their own acts. While in the flesh that they would have done had the fullness of the holy priesthood been upon the earth in their day and they had possessed all the glory and power and keys of it and had lived faithful to its requirements in all their days. They cannot be crowned as gods. Even the sons of God will they be saved. They will in a kingdom. Little John Wesley in a good kingdom. Yeah, in a kingdom full of glory, full of light and joy more than ever entered into the heart of man, to conceive while they lived. It never entered into their hearts, to conceive of the glory they do or will enjoy. If they have committed wrongs, repented of them, the blood of the savior will cleanse them from all sin except the sin against the holy ghost, which is a sin unto death. Apostle. John writes, if any man sees his brother’s sin, a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask and he shall give him life for them. Uh that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death. I do not say that you shall pray for it all and righteousness is sin and there is not a sin unto death. I have endeavored to give you a few items relating to the celestial kingdom. He’s trying to lay out, there are orders of it. And the only way you get in the top order is to enter into polygamy. Just by the way, all of you who just want to have it in your heart. Just remember you’re, you’re, you’re gonna be in the basement of the celestial kingdom. OK? Um And he goes on, but that’s the point. So Brian, it prevents you from disease. It keeps you from temptation, it protects you from the severe temptation of going and hanging out with hookers. And it is what puts you in
[58:00] Michelle: temptation,
[58:01] Jeremy Hoop: the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. Will you respond to that specifically, Brian? Instead of just saying there’s no key holder that ever said, why we do this?
[58:14] Michelle: That’s OK. That’s awesome. So, and what I love is that there are so many that all three of us searching each came up with different ones. That’s kind of amazing to me that this is how many there are. So I want, can I share some of mine as well? Because we’re combined, we, we’re responding to both the claim that nobody ever said why it was required, right? First, it was no leader and then it was when, when he was caught, when he was caught with that not being quite correct, then he changed it to keep holder. We got a new word. So we’re going to go on to those. So he’s claiming that no one ever said why? And he’s claiming that it was never said to be necessary for exultation. Some, some peons, unimportant people may have said that at some point, but no one in authority ever said it was necessary, right? So, so I’m just gonna add a couple that I gathered as well. Brigham Young July 14th, 1855 Jeremy. If if you read these and I missed them, I was, you know, let me know
[59:06] Jeremy Hoop: do 1855.
[59:08] Michelle: OK? And, and you know, there’s so much overlap that they all, you know, so this is just one snippet. Now, if any of you will deny the plurality of wives and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned and I will go further to say, take this revelation or any other revelation that the Lord has given and deny it in your feelings and I promise that you will be damned, but the saints who live their religion will be exalted. So again, it’s not even you have to believe a polygamist in your heart to avoid being um to, to be exhausted, you have to believe it, to condemned as the revelation itself says, if you have these things taught to you and you don’t love them. You will be damned. So, it’s ridiculous to claim that it’s not necessary. We have the revelation in our scriptures according to the revelation itself, we’re all damned right. So, um I also, I think it’s worth reading some others. This is a Rasta Snow. Um This is October 4th, 1857 are all the families of Israel and every woman striving herself to play well, her part and reverence her husband as her Lord for he is her Lord. This is this idea I’m talking about of you are just like you. Well, that they were taught women, the only God and Children, the only God you have to worry about is your husband, father and members of the church. Only God you have to worry about is Brigham Young, right? It’s, it’s this very much hierarchical structure. So for he is her Lord and will she ever have another? No, never. And if she ever expects to have another, she has not learned Mormonism a right. Um He goes on to say, how shall women honor their husbands just as we honor brother Brigham in his place and as the authorities in the wards in their places because upon Him is laid the responsibility of that family and he cannot get rid of it. He is duty bound to purge them of their follies and they are in duty bound to listen to his reproofs and honor him and pray for him. That he may be led awright. So I know that the temple was recently changed to no longer have women covenant to obey their husband. But this is where it came from. This was the idea that it grew out of which I think is useful to know. So thankful that it’s been adjusted. So, um do the women when they pray? Remember their husbands? Do you pray for brother Brigham? Yes, you should pray. You should always pray for Him. But when you pray for him, do you also pray for your own husband that he may have the inspiration of the Almighty to lead and govern his family? As, as the Lord. Do you uphold your husband before God as your Lord? What my husband be my Lord. I ask, can you get into the celestial kingdom without him? Have any of you been there? You will remember that you never got into the celestial kingdom without the aid of your husband. If you did it was because your husband. So it’s again referring to the temple if you did it was because your husband was away and someone had to act proxy for him. No woman will get into the celestial kingdom except her husband receives her if she is worthy to have a husband and if not, somebody will receive her as a servant. So that lays it out pretty well. And I know it’s not the official um president of the church. But does that really matter. This was what was universally taught. Right. And this was taught at conference. So, um, I, oh, I had the Hebrew Secret when I can skip over that one where, because I, I wanted to contrast these because they try to also say, well, yes, a woman can’t be exalted without her husband, but her husband also can’t be exalted without a wife. So it’s equal. Right? Makes it very clear. He’s saying no, the women need the men. Hebrews C Kimball. It goes on to make it very clear. I I’ll read a little bit supposing this is a Hebrew C Kimball February 1st 1857 supposing that I have a wife or a dozen of them and she should say you cannot be exalted without me. So she’s trying to use that line of reasoning, right? And suppose they should all say that what of it? They will never affect my salvation. One particle whose salvation will they affect their own? They have got to live their religion, serve their God and do right, as well as myself. Suppose that I lose the whole of them before I go into the spirit world. I lose all of my wives. But, but that I have been a good faithful man all the days of my life who none of his wives stayed with and lived my religion and had favor with God. It was and was kind to them. Do you think I will be destitute? There. No, he goes on to say if I am faithful all the time and continue right along with brother Brigham, we will go to brother Joseph and say here we are brother Joseph. We are here ourselves. Are we not with none of our property we possessed in the probationary state? Not even the rings on our fingers. He will say to us, come along my boys, we will give you a good suit of clothes. Where are your wives? They, they are back yonder. They would not follow us. Never mind. Says Joseph here are thousands have all you want. That’s a literal quote that it’s not quite equal.
[1:03:28] Jeremy Hoop: That’s better, that’s better than the Muslims. That’s 72 version.
[1:03:33] Michelle: You don’t have to be a suicide bomber to accomplish it. Um OK, Brigham Young, 1862. I don’t think you did the July 2nd, 1862. We’re just gonna throw these out there because like, let’s just do, let’s have the embarrassment of riches. So that. Right. Right. Let’s make it harder and harder to deny them. So this is Brigham Young July 6th 1862 key holder. Hey, the religion of Adam Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac Jacob and the patriarchs and prophets, Jesus and his apostles is the only acknowledged and popular system of religion in the same um with the sanctified ones in the presence of the father and the son, but says a Presbyterian Abraham was a polygamist. He was and you say that this, that his religion is popular in heaven. It is the only religion acknowledged there. I have not now the time to dwell upon all the points of Abraham’s faith. But he did believe in the plurality of wives. And he was a practical polygamist. The Jews practice polygamy as did Abraham, the patriarchs, Moses David and the prophets came down and the prophets down to the day to the days of the apostles, monogamy or restrictions by law to one wife is no part of the economy of heaven among men. There will be no monogamous in heaven. Are we getting this? Can we like? Can we acknowledge what was taught and stop lying about it? Um And I, I always have been hesitant to share these quotes because sadly, it encourages polygamy. These are the quotes people dig up that convert them to polygamy. What we have to make clear is it was wrong. They were wrong. Joseph didn’t teach it. God didn’t command it. That’s why. But we can’t keep lying about it and say they didn’t teach it because we keep having people leave the church and converting to polygamy. Two really bad directions
[1:05:12] Jeremy Hoop: to go. On the, on the other hand, what happens on the side of Lindsay Henson Park and John Delyn and Dan Vogel is that they superimpose these thoughts which Joseph never said onto him because they just seamlessly connect him to them as though they got them from Joseph, which they can never establish, but they do it. They do so dishonestly and like they’ll go back and they’ll say Joseph did the following and, and this is how they set things up and this is how he approached the women and this is blah, blah, blah, because that’s what these men would do. And so they assume that they can, and they can state confidently that that’s exactly what Joseph is doing because these men did these things and, and so what
[1:05:53] Michelle: claimed they claimed that Joseph did them, right? These, these men claimed that Joseph did them. But again, like, like, like all of the anti mormons, you really are going to hold Brigham Young up as a man of integrity. Who you
[1:06:08] Jeremy Hoop: mean as a man to be believed as a man of rationality of, of sincerity, of, of clarity, of mind, of consistency. A man who would never lie by the way, never lie. Wait, wait, wait, you actually believe he was a liar. You believe he was a scoundrel, but you believe him when you want to believe him,
[1:06:23] Michelle: right? Not about polygamy. He only told the truth about polygamy. Ok. So I’ll go ahead.
[1:06:28] Jeremy Hoop: I
[1:06:28] Michelle: know. Right. Well, they could tell the truth because they just did it right out in the open. It’s only monogamous men who lie, right? Because they’re, they’re sleeping with prostitutes in secret. Ok? Um I’ll continue on monogamy or restriction by, by law to one wife is no part of the economy of heaven among men. Such a system was commenced by the founders of the Roman Empire, that empire was founded on the banks of the Tiber by wandering brigands. When these robbers founded the city of Rome, it was evident to them that their success in attaining a balance of power with their neighbors depended on introducing females into their body politic. So they stole the from the Sabines who were their neighbors. The scarcity of women gave existence to laws restricting one wife to one man. Rome became, became the mistress of the world and introduced this order of monogamy wherever that her sway was acknowledged. Thus, the monogamy order of marriage. So esteemed by modern Christians as the holy Sacrament and divine institution is nothing but a system established by a set of robbers had nothing to with um Adam and Eve and God and the revelations, right? It was just a set of robbers. I think we should address these honestly what they really were teaching. It’s not just that polygamy was required, the monogamy was bad, bad, bad, bad, bad,
[1:07:46] Jeremy Hoop: right? And the and the exception to the rule, by the way, they they will they will state in many instances, the whole world basically is, is, is polygamist which by which by the way is that the reason why it’s holy because the whole does it right? All of all of the all of the barbarian hordes that practice polygamy. They’re, they’re among the righteous,
[1:08:07] Michelle: all of the non-christian nations do it. So therefore, it’s crazy. So I’ll go on because I liked this quote because Brian says we were never told. Why. So listen to the beginning of the following sentences, why do we believe in him practice polygamy? Brigham Young asks because he’ll answer the question because the Lord introduced it to his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith and the Lord’s servants have always practiced it. So this idea that monogamy is the rule and polygamy was that exception is not true. According to Brigham Young’s own words, we need to have consistency and stop telling these lies, they destroy faith. Ok? And they always practiced it. And is that religion popular in heaven? It is the only popular religion that Brigham repeats himself a lot in his quotes. Hello, Kitty. For this is the religion of Abraham. And unless we do the works of Abraham, we are not Abraham’s seeds, Abraham’s seed and heirs according to promise. So he gives us some pretty good reasons there. Then you did 1868. But I think you did August 19th and I have August 9th. I think I have a separate one. I stopped in 1866. Ok. Well, I’m gonna go on to 1868. We’ll just, we’ll, we’ll get a comprehensive view. It again, not comprehensive, just a more fulsome because there are three of us working on it which is why this is so fun. I can’t believe we all were led to different ones to include. Hey, this is Brigham Young again. There is a little, little matter I want to speak upon, upon to you my sisters. It is a subject that is very obnoxious to outsiders. We have one doctrine in our faith that to their view is erroneous and very bad. It is painful to think of. Should I tell you what it is? Sisters? Oh, says one, I know what you mean. My husband has 24, half a dozen wives. Well, I want to tell the sisters how to free themselves from this odium. As many of them consider it this doctrine so hateful and annoying to the feelings of many was revealed from heaven to Joseph Smith and obedience is required to wit by the latter day saints. I like that. It’s required by the latter day saints, not by God. That’s accurate. That’s where the requirement came from. This very principle. So here it is, this very principle will work out the moral salvation of the world. You did read this, didn’t you? Or he’s just restating it because you said the same thing, it will work out the moral salvation of the world. Do you believe it? It makes no difference whether you, whether you do or not it is true. So again, this is the solution to all of the world’s problems, polygamy. Yes, this odious doctrine will work out the moral reformation and salvation of this generation. People generally do not see it. My sisters do not see it and I do not know that all the elders of Israel see it. But if this course be pursued and we make this the rule of, of practice, it will force all men to take a wife, then we will be satisfied with one wife. So if we live polygamy long enough, it’ll fix all the virtues of the world and then we’ll live monogamy is what he basically was saying that which I thought was bizarre, but there was a reason and then, OK, I have a couple more if that’s OK. Let me go on to Joseph F Smith who Joseph F Smith president of the church, right? And this was um July 7th 1878. So he was an apostle at this point who became the president of the church and continued to teach these things. I like this one. Some people have supposed that the doctrine of plural marriage was a sort of superfluity, superfluity, ex extra, whatever or non, non essential to the salvation or exaltation of mankind. Or in other words, some of the saints have said and believe that a man with one wife sealed to him by the authority of the priesthood for time and eternity will receive an exaltation as great and glorious. If he is faithful as he possibly could with more than one, I want here to enter my solemn protest against this idea for I know it is false. Get it is it required. There is no blessing promised except upon conditions and no blessing can be obtained by mankind, except by faithful compliance with the conditions or law upon which the same is promised directly for 132. They’re always referencing it, the marriage of one woman to a man for eternity by the sealing power according to the law of God is a fulfillment of the celestial law of marriage in part and is good so far as it goes, and so far as a man abides these conditions of the law, he will receive his reward and this reward or blessing he could not obtain on any other grounds or conditions. But this is only the beginning of the law, not the whole of it. Therefore, whoever has imagined that he could obtain the fullness or the blessings pertaining to the celestial law by complying with only a portion of its conditions has deceived himself. He cannot do it if then this principle was of such great importance that the prophet himself was threatened with destruction. They always go back to the angel with the sword, right? And the best men in the church with being excluded from the favor of the Almighty. If they did not enter into it, it and establish the practice of it upon this earth. So again, catch that it was so important when, when, when, when they’re talking about the angel with the sword. Were they saying Joseph, this is just gonna be restored for about 60 years, 50 years and then it’s over because monogamy is the rule and polygamy is the exception. No, they are saying it was so important that it be established as a perpetual law never to be taken from the earth again, which is the excuse they use the restoration for brought forth all of the God, all of the laws of God never to be taken from the earth. That is why Joseph F Smith assigned some people to be separate from the church to carry on polygamy, which and that is what the polygamists have in their history. That was the idea, it was never to be taken from the earth. And so anyway, he goes on to talk about this if then this principle was of such great importance that the prophet himself was threatened with destruction and the best men in the church with being excluded from the favor of the Almighty. So the best men of the church would not get to come into the presence of God if they were not polygamists, if they did not enter into and establish the practice of it upon the earth, it is useless to tell me that there is no blessing attached to obedience to the law or that a man with only one wife can obtain as great a reward, glory or kingdom as he can with more than one being equally faithful man may receive great reward, exaltation, and glory by entering into the bond of the new and everlasting covenant. If you continue faithful, according to his knowledge that he cannot receive the fullness of the blessings, unless he fulfills the law any more than he can claim the gift of the Holy Ghost after he is baptized without the laying out of hands by the proper authority for the remission or the remission of sins without baptism. Though he may repent in sackcloth and ashes, it is a glorious privilege to be permitted to go into the temple of God to be united as a man and wife in the bonds of holy wedlock for time and eternity by the authority of the holy priesthood. It is an additional privilege for that same man and wife to re-enter the temple of God, to receive another wife in the like manner if they are worthy. But if he remains faithful with only one wife, observing the conditions of so much of the law as pertains to the, to the eternity of the marriage of the marriage covenant, he will receive his reward but the benefits, blessings and power appertaining to the second and more faithful and fuller observance of the law he never will receive for he cannot, I understand the law of celestial marriage to mean that every man in this church who has the ability to obey and practice it in righteousness. And will not shall be damned. I say I understand it to mean this and nothing less. And I testify in the name of Jesus Christ that it does mean that, ok, there’s a statement, is that one on Brian Hill’s website? Does the transparency include that one? I thought that was pretty clear. And if you guys can stick around, I have a couple more. Is that ok? If I do a couple of more,
[1:15:56] Jeremy Hoop: a little bit longer, just a little bit.
[1:15:58] Michelle: Ok. So I thought it was interesting to also include, let’s see, I just have one. Well, George Buchanan, I think it’s important to recognize. Again. George Buchanan was the first counselor in the first presidency to Brigham Young for a time after the death of Heber C. Kimball to John Taylor to Wilfred Woodruff and to Lorenzo Snow. So if we’re going to throw him out because he’s not a key holder, then I, I mean, that seems problematic to me. He was one of, he served in political office. He was one of the best known um church leaders for the longest time high in authority. And so he said, therefore, it is a blessing from God for a woman to bear Children to such a man or to any um or to any man who holds the everlasting priesthood of the Son of God and who magnifies his calling and through magnifying, it receives promises from God to himself and his posterity after him. Hence, it is my brothers and sisters. The remarks are made from time to time about plural marriage, patriarchal marriage. So it’s a blessing to a woman, to bear Children, to any worthy polygamous man. Right? That’s all she needs is he just needs to be a worthy polygamist. Now, that’s why we talk about it. It is, it is designed of God that it should be. So there are comparatively few men among the family of mankind who are capable of leading the daughters of Zion into the celestial kingdom of God. Comparatively few for the Lord says straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to the exaltation. Few. There be that find it out of all the sons of God. There are comparatively few I say who are capable through their faith and faithfulness and through their keeping the commandments of God of leaving the daughters of Zion in the path of exaltation and lead them into the celestial kingdom of our God. And therefore, it is of the utmost importance that in these matters, we should be exceedingly careful. Our daughters should be taught to control their feelings and affections and not let them go out with any regard to these circumstances which I have alluded. A woman should be exceedingly careful. A girl should be exceedingly careful. He goes on to say according to our faith, no woman should be connected with a man who cannot save her in the celestial kingdom of God. Um Let’s see. And then I’m including this next little part because it’s talking one of the, one of the arguments I’m hearing come up more and more often reasons for polygamy is bloodlines, which I find to be a horrific, horrific argument. Right? Like Brigham’s bloodline was some superior. It’s, it’s just awful. But, um, so he goes on to say, how can fathers and mothers of the saints who marry into families that are not at the church or that are apostates? How can they mingle together upon terms of equality their grandchildren having in them, the blood, the blood of the apostate. And so I included that little snippet. He said our daughters should seek by all the faith that they can exercise before God to obtain good husbands, husbands who will make them mothers of a righteous seed and posterity with whom they can rejoice in the eternal mansions of our father and our God and no woman who has the faith of the gospel within her will want to bear a child to a man of whom she will be ashamed and who cannot lead her into the presence of the lamb. We’re getting a pretty, I wanted to include some of these quotes so people could understand why I explained what polygamy was really about. Right? And how it was with these people, John Taylor. Well, I’ll go on to something else. Would they agree that monogamy is the rule and polygamy is the exception. That is now our statement. It’s ridiculous and talk about present, right? And so, um I wanna share something, well, I have two things to share the two last sources. This is a fantastic source. This was during the quest for statehood for Utah statehood. This was a, a letter written by the um first presidency and the quorum of the 12 apostles as you’ll see to the president of the United States. OK. And look at how it starts. We the first presidency and apostles of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints beg beg respectfully um to represent your excellency. The following facts we formerly taught to our people that polygamy or celestial marriage as commanded by God through Joseph Smith was right that it was a necessity to man’s highest exaltation in the life to come. We have it right there in black and white that it was taught by all of the leaders that it was required that right? And he goes on to talk about how Brigham Young taught, taught about it for 40 years and that it was required and just to make it more official. So we can’t say that it’s, you know, not a key holder. It was signed by the entire every functioning member of the first presidency and quorum of the 12 apostles. I think that’s a pretty good source to address that we have this document that actually shows that it was required. And then there’s just one more thing that I wanted to quickly address that is not something we talk about often, but it is the, oh, I’ll have to get the year 1886 revelation by John Taylor. And um I know that you guys are familiar with this, but it’s fascinating to look at this. So this is the story behind this. This was in John Taylor’s papers and John W Taylor who was John Taylor’s son and one of the most beloved apostles who was kind of the one that communicated along with, was it Cowley? They were excommunicated to get removed from their office is what it was um as an example because they were the ones that kept doing polygamy um in secret. And Joseph, well, so did Joseph F Smith. But I think Joseph F Smith had to make an example is my understanding. Maybe I need to get the details better, but this is nobody contests that this was indeed written in John Taylor’s own hand. And John Taylor really was kind of a martyr for polygamy. He died in, in hiding and he said that polygamy would never be, no, never, no, never, no, never, right. We’ll never give it up. And so this is his um revelation that he wrote my son, John, you have asked me concerning the new and everlasting covenant and how far it is binding upon my people. And I included another, some people say this is only about the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, not polygamy as if they’re not the same thing. Right? And I, I’m not going to read it, but I have an 1883 speech by John Taylor just a few years before showing clearly that to him. The new and everlasting covenant was polygamy. They were one and the same, there was no wiggle room between them. Um Thus saith the Lord all my all commandments that I give must be obeyed by the, by those calling themselves by my name unless they revoked by me or by my authority. And how can I revoke an everlasting covenant for I the Lord am everlasting and my everlasting covenants cannot be abrogated nor done away with, but they stand forever. Have I not given my word in the in great plainness on this subject yet? I have not great numbers of my people been negligent in the observance, observance of my law and the keeping of my commandment. Remember we now brag that like only 10% of the Mormons lived polygamy or only we even make it less, only 5%. So it’s now a good thing that’d be like saying only 10% of the Mormons ever went to the temple. So it wasn’t really that big of a deal. Um John Taylor is saying it’s bad that not more are living it, right? Um Let’s see and yet I have borne with them these many years and this because of their weakness, because of the perilous times. And furthermore, it is pleasing to me that men should use their free agency in regard to these matters. Nevertheless, I do the Lord do not change and my word and my covenants and my law do not. And as I have heretofore said by my servant Joseph, all those who would enter into my glory must and shall obey my law. And when he’s talking about his law, he’s talking about polygamy and have I not commanded men that if they were Abraham’s seed and would enter into my glory, they must do the works of Abraham again. That’s right out of section 132 and right out of these other quotes that we’ve read. So I don’t know how we try to um claim that no one ever told us why and that it was never said to be necessary for exultation. I’ll just say one more thing about this John Taylor revelation, of course, is something that’s not accepted by the church, right? Like they acknowledge that it was in John Taylor’s handwriting and that it was real. But I’ll read to you how Brian Hall says it’s not valid on a paper that he wrote about it. I’m quoting Brian Hills now while apparently constituting a genuine personal revelation to Taylor. So even he has to admit that it was a genuine, a genuine revelation. The document of the irony here, this just is glorious. The document was never presented to church leaders or to a church conference for a sustaining vote, which could have given it the status of scripture like that found within the doctrine and covenants. OK. Are you with me here? He admits that was the president of the church having and writing a true revelation from God, but since it was he never presented it to the church for a sustaining vote, we’re OK to throw it out. Hmm Let’s compare that to section 132. The the revelation on polygamy, did Joseph ever present that to the church for a sustaining vote? Hmm. Is it was it in Joseph? So this document from um John Taylor is known to be in John Taylor’s own hand was presented to the leaders of the church by his son, his apostle son who verified that it was from him. It’s in perfect alignment with everything John Taylor ever did and everything John Taylor ever taught, right? And we throw it out as a church section 132. Not in Joseph, help me. Not in Joseph Smith’s own hand in complete contradiction to everything he said and everything the historical record said he ever did, his wife and his son said, it absolutely was not from him. It was never presented during Joseph Smith’s life. Even when it was presented in 1852 it was never presented for a vote. It was never accepted with a sustaining vote. It wasn’t until the full 1880 doctor and Covent was completely done with all of the editions and all of the edits, right? The entire um um what, what, what was it called? The Lectures on faith was all removed from it and right? And then all of those new and then once it was already published and handed out, then they got to vote to sustain it. Right. So the irony here again, everyone looking at this, look at how Brian Hills justifies rejecting John Taylor’s revelation and insisting that we keep section 132. Uh Somebody explain that. Well, I shouldn’t I get in trouble if I say somebody explained that to me, to me, it makes absolutely no sense. What about anyone else? Does, does it make sense to anybody?
[1:26:46] Jeremy Hoop: It’s because of his doctrine of the key holders, the current key holders want to maintain a certain narrative and that narrative is there was no issue with polygamy is only limited. It just, you know, we don’t understand it fully, but uh but Joseph did it but he wasn’t unrighteous and it passed to Brigham and all the everything was necessary to pass to Brigham. Brigham did some things that were wrong but no, never mind that. But it continued, continue, continued, then it was gone and we’re fine, we’re fine and, and that’s the narrative. We’re fine today because key holders, key holders, key holders, except when the key holders say something different.
[1:27:19] Michelle: So, so what I’m hearing you say is like, whatever today’s story is, is eternal truth.
[1:27:25] Jeremy Hoop: It’s the, it’s the whole notion of the living prophets are better than the dead prophets. And that’s all you have to worry about. It’s the, it’s the, hey, let’s crush the bottle because the other guy crushed the bottle.
[1:27:36] Michelle: So consistency doesn’t matter. Truth doesn’t matter. But, so my question is Brian, why are you even engaged in historical work? It, it shouldn’t matter at all. Right. Nothing from the past matters because we don’t need to tell the truth about anything at all. I would like to request that Brian cease to claim that nobody ever said why it was necessary and that it was never said to be necessary for, for exultation. I would like to claim that Brian Hill and all other people who talk about polygamy cease to say those things because they are verifiably untrue and better yet. I hope that Brian will retract those statements and acknowledge that maybe he wasn’t aware of these quotes.
[1:28:21] Jeremy Hoop: If you’re going to be a transparency, you, you, you’re required to do that, Brian.
[1:28:26] Whitney Horning: Well, I’ve been sitting here as we’ve been sharing these wondering, I mean, he knows, I mean, you know, Scott labeled him the polygamy genius. So I’ve been wondering why he would make that claim. And I, and I am wondering, you know, there’s a show where he talks about how he got into the polygamy. Um arena because he had a family member who left the LDS church and went and joined a polygamist group. So I’m wondering if, if I claim, like if he wants to claim that because he doesn’t want to dig into it. Like you mentioned Michelle by us stating the reasons. It does um give those people who, who want to think that they’re following Joseph Smith, they want to be faithful to the restoration. Then they hear these things and they, then they leave the church and they run, go get into polygamy where we’re trying to say, hey, look, they absolutely taught that it was for exultation. They taught that it was for all these other silly reasons, which really were just justifications for themselves, committing adultery. I mean, they wanted to still be good, righteous men, faithful men. But also get to, you know, indulge in the natural man. And so we’re trying to with our work trying to say, look, divorce is from Joseph. This was never part of the restoration, never. And so divorce it from Joseph. So now that you can divorce it from Joseph, then there definitely were reasons that Brigham said it. And guess what, Brian, we can’t talk about those reasons. And again, say this is the pressure Brigham put on the people and that pressure is still felt by people today that want to be faithful to the gospel. And then they hear these reasons and they think, well, were we not a faithful people. Did we give into statehood and get rid of this um doctrine that, you know, is so core and it’s gonna get us exalted. So, essentially, since 1890 are we all damned people? Right. Right. And we’re seeing it never has, it is not
[1:30:32] Michelle: all wrong, the historic
[1:30:33] Whitney Horning: gospel ever. And so you can still attain to whatever salvation and exaltation means. But go find out what Joseph taught. Go find out how Joseph taught those things and get back to the actual gospel Joseph taught because what you today, you faithful LDS members today think that Joseph taught isn’t what Joseph taught. You have a great teacher of the man. Go find out what Joseph taught and then go be faithful to that and that is what and what he taught will lead you closer to um God and will lead you to a profound and personal relationship with your savior.
[1:31:17] Michelle: Oh, I love it. And guess what, what Joseph Todd just happens to align perfectly with his scriptures, the book of Mormon, the Doctrine and covenants, all of the true doctrine. Covenant section 42 that says, um cleave unto your wife and none else, right? They like like throughout he was so consistent, it, it is universally the same. And it is so fascinating that Brian claims to be um against current polygamous, like he keeps saying they don’t have the the key holder’s approval, right? But the iro irony is polygamists adore him, rely on him, love him and need him. Right? As do the anti mormons because he validates and verifies the stories that they want to tell. In fact, there’s a Facebook group, there are other Facebook, social media can be such an interesting place. I love it in some ways because it brings people together, but it also can bring a lot of awful things together. So there are several Facebook groups dedicated to basically Joseph Smith’s polygamy, right? To and to my amazement, I saw Brian Hills join at least one of them and post in it to like, like it was interesting because he started to get kind of negative comments. Like when he went on Steven Pinker show to talk about me, they, they took that down because the comments were so awful. If you wanna have fun, go read through those comments and really the comments on this episode are pretty awful. So Brian has started turning off his comments but guess where he gets loving, loving comments. So he continues to post in this group of polygamists. That group is filled up with polygamists and he’s found common cause with them. So Brian, what you really are doing is destroying faith. You are destroying faith. These narratives destroy faith by the tens of thousands, probably the hundreds of thousands. And you are in common cause with current polygamists who are the ones who like and appreciate you, you’re making Mormons uncomfortable because we have to listen to this nonsense and try to accept. I mean, we didn’t even get to so many of the horrible parts of this one interview and there are so many more. So I would say like, like also stop trying to win by silencing people. It is despicable. That is a terrible tactic. Straight up, just straight up, unrighteous, Dominion, engage, engage with us. I will have you on this program. Absolutely. Any time or you have your own channel that a little while ago his Facebook, I mean, his youtube channel had 100 and 32 subscribers which I thought was really fun. My producer sent me a um a screenshot and it was 100 and 32 subscribers, which I thought was just like the perfect number, you know, like 100 32. But he has, you have a Facebook, you have a youtube channel post on that respond just like you did to um your response to um Whitney and Rob and um Denver, which we will also be addressing like, like any vehicle any time. Just deal honestly with what we are presenting, take it and deal honestly with it. Be a transparency. Any final words from either of you,
[1:34:31] Jeremy Hoop: we, we’re so we’re kind of picking on Brian right now, but you’re the one that picked the fight, Brian, you’re the one that, that, that, that threw down the gauntlet. Um I don’t think now I’ve been a little snarky today, I have to admit, but I don’t think I’ve called you a name. You don’t deserve a name. You’re, you’ve done a great work in this community. What I take issue with is dodging and weaving and accusing and calling names and then not addressing the issues and, and that would go for anybody who engages in this subject. Um, I think by, I think at this point, anyone who’s actually watched, read Whitney’s book, watched Michelle’s stuff, watched the work that I’ve done, listened to my talk and, and all the things that are going on right now. You cannot say that it’s not thorough analysis. You may disagree with what we’re doing. That’s totally fine. But you cannot say that, that, that we are, that we are cherry picking sources. You can’t say that if you’ve actually watched what we’ve done, which I kind of challenge maybe you haven’t. So let’s actually deal with the material and in this regard, we’ve, we’ve taken one subject, Brian, one subject and we’ve just, I think we’ve blown it apart. They did indeed teach it was necessary for, for exultation. You can find other little sources where, where Wilfred Woodruff says in his journal. Well, Brigham said that, you know, some guy who has one wife, he might get there, you can, you can bring those up, but you can’t counterbalance it with these other statements. They’re too pervasive, they’re too ubiquitous. And so please deal with that and, and and stop trying to a apologize if you want to use that word to get the narrative where you want it to go. That’s the problem. Let’s be honest about this discussion and, and let’s exercise transparency.
[1:36:26] Michelle: Beautiful. Thank you so much, both of you for coming. This was a really fun discussion on a tiny little part. We had like, what was it? A three page document that edited down to one small little. we’re just gonna talk about two points. But I think we did a thorough job. I appreciate you very much. I look forward to engaging again and continuing on this topic again. I wish it weren’t directed at a person, but at this point, it kind of needs to be. I, I have thought about it at length. I have prayed about it at length going what’s the best way to do this? And I just feel like we have to address Brian Hall’s tactics and narrative. And that is the only reason that we are addressing this at Brian Hills. I am sure he is a very nice guy. And, you know, I, I would love to think that I could go shake his hand if I ever meet him that there wouldn’t be hard feelings. But um I also, I hope that Brian Hills has at least of a, as, as thick of a skin as I’ve had to have because Brian has said some pretty awful things about me as he’s gone. Around and he’s doing some pretty awful things directly to me that tactics that I would never engage in. So if anyone takes this as a personal attack or thinks it’s mean, um I would invite you to make suggestions of a better way to go about it and I’m wide open to them and consider what’s happening on both sides. So, thank you, both. You guys are awesome. Thank you for bringing your knowledge and expertise and your great personalities and I look forward to talking to you again. Thank you Michelle again. I cannot thank both Whitney and Jeremy enough for all of the work that they have done in this area on this topic. For all that they have researched all the hours that they have dedicated and spent and all of the knowledge that they have brought forward. I am so I am so appreciative of them and I am so inspired by their tremendous faith. Anyone who wants to claim that this narrative destroys faith, needs to tune in more and look at the people who are actually doing the work on this narrative because it is the true narrative and it is the one when we get truth, it builds faith, right? That’s what I hope that everybody is understanding. So I I just want you all to know that this is going to continue. We are all dedicated to continuing to bring this to and forward. I know I am, I’m not going to stop. I’m going to keep going and keep finding truth and keep trying to bring truth out to as many people as possible. And that’s what I hope that all of us will do. And frankly, Brian, it’s what I hope you will do because there’s always room to change. There’s always room to improve the story. There’s always room to actually be a transparency and I think we would all love to see that happen. So again, a huge, thank you for your time. Huge. Thank you for your help with this podcast. Um Monetary donations are always appreciated and I will see you next time.
