114: Escaping Utah – Part 2 with Cheryl and Dan Clute

This is Part Two of my recent conversation with Cheryl and Dan Clute, members of the Restoration Branches who have so much information to share with us.

If you haven’t yet watched Part One of this interview, please watch it here

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Links:

Herald (includes autobiography of Charles Derry)
Bound Autobiography of Elder Charles Derry
Restoration Bookstore Saints Advocate

Transcript:

[00:00] Brigham Stone: Welcome to 132 problems revisiting Mormon polygamy. I know I’m not who you were expecting to see, but my mom is sick and has completely lost her ability to speak and being the amazing son that I am. I told her I would do the introduction for her as long as she paid me enough to make it worth my time. Now, I know the episode you were about to watch has some pretty dark stuff in it. But I want you to remember something very important while some Brighams might possibly be racist, sexist, murders, totalitarian, theocratic dictators. Not all Brighams are. I know this for a fact because I happen to be a Brigham and I am none of those things. So while you are hearing these stories, please remember that there are some pretty great Brighams out there who don’t deserve to be mixed up with any of this. In conclusion. I just want to say that while I am, in fact a young Brigham, I am decidedly not a Brigham Young. I hope you enjoyed the episode. I’m Brigham Stone and I approve this message.

[01:25] Cheryl Clute: this book. I mean, seriously, it’s, it’s worth the the whole read. It’s really good. But they did escape because of the army, saving all those people in Utah. All there was lots of people behind the wall that escaped with this army.

[01:39] Michelle: And do you know what’s so fascinating? It is. So even talking to Barbara Jones Brown about the Mountain Mountain Meadows massacre the way that they explain it or talk about it as war strategy because Brigham considered that he was at war with theme with the United States, the war mentality combined with the blood atonement teaching, which was ubiquitous at this time period. You can see how this, this all would of course be what was happening

[02:05] Cheryl Clute: since you. We’re talk kind of about Mo Meta massacre. I want you to hear this. Have you ever heard of uh Charles Wesley Wandell

[02:15] Michelle: maybe? So that sounds familiar. It’s

[02:18] Cheryl Clute: in price’s books in volume one and it’s on page 235 but I did a little bit of digging more and with a good friend of mine that’s a researcher at the restoration bookstore, Amanda. I gotta give her credit. She really, she really helped me on this one. So this Charles Wesley Wendell, he was uh converted to the gospel during the days of Joseph and Hiram in New York and he was actually sent back to New York to be an, he was an elder to um bring the gospel all over the state of New York. And then it was right around the time Joseph and Hyrum were killed. Uh He found out, you know that Joseph Van Hem been killed and he, he went to Nauvoo and uh while he was at Nauvoo now, of course, this is when the K 12, the 12 apostles were taken over and everything. It’s 1845 now. And uh he was asked by Willard Richards who had uh taken over the historical department to uh come in and help in the historical department for a while. So he did and, um, while he was there, he began to see they were rewriting and changing the history, he saw it, he witnessed it. Ok. So he did not like it at all. I mean, he was, he, he knew they were changing it and that’s what they were gonna take with him to Utah. Was this changed history by, that’s like Emma wanted to get all Joseph’s papers and all this and that, but they wouldn’t let him have him. And so he witnessed Willard Richards and others changing the history to take with him to Utah. And so anyway, uh, about that time, Parley p. Pratt came in there and he wanted Charles Wendell to go with him on a mission. So he said, ok, so he left and he goes on this mission and, uh, they go, they’re going across, uh, they, they decided to go the southern route instead of going through Salt Lake and they get over near the somewhere between Saint George Cedar City area, that area. Uh and they began to uh this was right after the Mountain Meadow massacre and they began to uh talk. He was a historian and he wanted to know and he started asking all these saints out there about the Mountain Meta massacre. And the more he heard, the more he was like, oh my gosh, this was all done by Brigham and his hit man. This was it, this was, this was not, this wasn’t Indians and all that, you know, and so he wrote journals and journals and journals, so many journals full of the the accounts that he got firsthand from these people that witnessed the Mount Meta Massacre stuff. He goes on with poly Pratt and he gets out to California and then the word went out that they wanted to start a mission in Australia. So he volunteered to go do a mission in Australia. So while he was down there, uh all these saints down there were hearing stuff from back in Utah and getting letters and stuff saying, you know that they practice in polygamy and they’re doing all these different doctrines and stuff and, and he didn’t want to believe it. He did not want to believe it because you know, he hadn’t, he hadn’t gone to Utah and he never, I mean Salt Lake and he hadn’t ever seen anything like they heard anything yet. So he was actually defending Brigham and then saying that’s not true, that’s not happening anyway. So he does, he’s done with his mission and he comes back to Utah and that’s when he finds out. Yeah, they are doing it. And so he ends up leaving Utah and he ends up going up to Nebraska and Iowa and he ends up joining the reorganization. Now, by this time, Joseph Smith, the third had took over uh and then, and then he ended up uh when the, when the Ro nice church took over in Lamon, I, he uh Joseph Smith the third was head of the Harald House Publishing company. And so he w Wandell took all of his journals, all the, all the accounts about the Mount Metal massacre that he had and he turned them all over to Joseph Smith the third. So that Joseph Smith the third could put it in a book and uh gave it all to him except a few documents that is, I guess his family had. And so anyway, he left to go back on to Australia to do a mission. And in the meantime, the Herald House Publishing company and Lamon, I burned to the ground

[07:14] Michelle: and it

[07:15] Cheryl Clute: burned down with all the journals in there. But anyway, uh and from what I read, I think I sent you this Michelle where they can read it online from the journal of history. He ended up, you know, going back to Australia and he ended up converted the people there, a lot of them to the reorganization and he ended up dying in Australia. But anyway, it’s, it was pretty interesting because, you know, he, he knew without a shadow of doubt that Brigham was behind the Mountain Meta Massacre.

[07:47] Michelle: Ok. That’s so interesting. And so I looked at the La Monai fire was in 1907 and just when you said that my suspicious brain wants to know what was the cause of the fire. What do we know about it? Could it have been sabotage? Has anyone wondered that?

[08:05] Cheryl Clute: Well, you know, I’ll tell you what if you haven’t heard it. Uh, John Ha, he does an excellent, that’s where we first met John years ago back in the early nineties, he did a thing called the Burning of the Nut Temple. And we heard him lecture on that. He did extensive research on it. And, uh, and then from other things that I’ve read about how Brigham liked to set fires on the houses where they used to live so nobody else could get them on their way on their whatever he loved setting fires. And I, that’s the very first thing that came to my mind when I heard that. I wonder how it got started because you were

[08:42] Michelle: right. I, like,

[08:44] Cheryl Clute: they tried to burn Emma’s house down twice.

[08:47] Michelle: I know. And, and, and I, through my research, I did come to believe that Brigham very likely tried to burn down the Navoo temple or not himself, his agents, he had people do it. And so anyway, so I think Brigham would have been dead by this time. It would have been um after his time. But it’s an interesting question. I don’t know what the situation was or how to verify that, but it didn’t pop into my head. So I thought I’d mention it.

[09:13] Cheryl Clute: This one’s just a short one and this is from the book WW Blair, the uh the uh memoirs. This is just a short one. Brother Williams related that his son Thomas, once a lawyer and a wealthy merchant of Utah was without a doubt slain by, by Brigham’s secret police with Brigham’s knowledge. And that after that affair, he Williams found it essential to his own peace and safety to get out of Utah. And that by a crafty move, he succeeded in getting up first among the apostates at, at Mala City. And after that, he located in Gallatin County, Montana where he resides and resided until he moved to Missouri. So there was all sorts of stuff going on

[09:56] Michelle: dozens and dozens. Then I

[09:58] Cheryl Clute: got a bunch that I can share. Yeah, with you.

[10:01] Dan Clute: I’ll try to get through this as quick as I can. Just a quick introduction of Charles Derry, Autom Gray of Charles Derry. He traveled with the Saints to Utah and when they discovered polygamy and other wrongs being practiced, they returned to Nebraska, Joseph the third says this, a brother Derry, uh brother Derry was, was a powerful preacher with a deep rumbling voice. Brother Joseph Smith, the third used to say of his pulpit delivery. Brother Derry is like a heavily loaded wagon. He is slow to start. But when he gets going, he makes the earth tremble. He was his child after he was u united with the, the church in 1847. He said, uh, he was put out of his father’s house. Relatives turned their back on him, quote, they had expected better things of me unquote. I had disgraced them by uniting with such a people as the latter day saints. So they thought within three months from my baptism, I was called into the ministry, ordained an elder and sent out to preach the gospel to the world just as Christ, sent out his disciples. And back then they went out without purse or script under Joseph and in those early days without persons or script that they went out in faith, but they had great testimonies. Uh as a result of that page 11, Brigham proc proclaims polygamy. It was during the year 1852 that a dark cloud passed over the church. Brigham Young proclaimed the damning doctrine of polygamy under the name of celestial marriage. He claimed that it had been revealed to Joseph Smith as the lord of the church. The minds of many of the saints were filled with gloom. Many honest hearted God fearing souls were crushed, their hopes were blasted and many withdrew in despair. While others accepted the lie because of the cunning resting of the word of God by the leaders of the church, these men had brought us the truth. Remember, they had preached the gospel. When they were out there, we had obeyed it and received its blessing, blessings in great measure. And many were unprepared to believe that they were now practicing a blasphemous fraud upon us, especially as they presented the cases of Abraham, the friend of God, Jacob who prevailed with God David, the man after God’s own heart. And others mentioned in the Bible, and our minds were blinded to the fact that man, the man Christ Jesus was the only perfect example for man to follow. And thus, I confess with shame that I was led for a time to believe in its origin, that its origin was divine. But God and His kindness preserved me from its practice for which I shall ever feel grateful to him. Perhaps the most cogent argument they used as a means of palming it upon the church was in the using the name of Joseph Smith, the martyr as the one through whom the pretended revelation came. No other name, not even Brigham Young’s would have been sufficiently weighty to have forced to the fraud. However, my mind might be blinded. So as to believe their presentations, respecting its divinity. I again, thank God, I was preserved from its practice. But owing to the fact that the deadly poison had corrupted the minds of many women married and single who were considered quote strong minded, many and terrible temptations were placed in the way. Nor was it because I was better by nature than others that I was not overcome. But because God helped me in the hour of need and enabled me like Joseph of all to escape the deadly meshes that were set for my feet. I do not believe that the women who accepted celestial marriage were by nature bad. But the deceitful and flattering unction had been held out to them that by their entering into polygamy or celestial marriage, they would secure more exalted stations in the kingdom of God. Thus many were led to accept it. While in their hearts, they felt that they were sacrificing all that was dear to them on earth. Some may have been wary of their present companions fearing that they could not lead them up into the higher glories. In fact, they were taught that it was better for them to become plural wives to those who held the priesthood than to remain with those who had not attained it. And they were also assured that the higher the priesthood, a man possessed, the greater, that were the chances for exaltation in the life to come. Hence, the desire for eternal salvation led many to become dissatisfied with present husbands and many families were broken up eventually by this accursed theory. Wow.

[15:05] Michelle: Yeah, it’s so clear. The, ok, it’s so clear. Ok,

[15:10] Dan Clute: the Currys of polygamy interfered with the success of the ministry in the British Isles, many departed from the church with sad and crushed hearts and in their despair, sought refuge and infidelity. But I was not yet prepared to discern the evil though, by the goodness of God, I was preserved from its practice. It was the custom of the presidency to select such of the ministry each year and had as a merited the privilege of gathering with their families to the land of Zion. And anyway, they’re selected to go to Utah. The close of my labors found me as penniless as when I first started out with P Purser script. But God and his love had enriched me with a true wife and two sweet Children whom we love dearer than life and believing as I did. And also my wife that it was our duty to go out of Babylon to go to the land of Zion, the Puran heart where we hope we will be able to train our loved ones in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. So they’re heading to Utah and it looks like it was around in 1854 is when they were going to Utah. Ok, butter and meat were articles that the poor could seldom obtain. They were great luxuries. But the leaders and those and those in the practice of pollute me, devoured those things he said for as yet, I had not learned to distrust the leaders or question the divinity of their teaching. Uh But as stubborn facts develop, I was able to see the difference between the service of God and the imposition of aspiring ambitious men. And my began to cool, especially when the working sometime in the public works. And he tells uh he’s gone in the public works. And so his wife had to go to the tithing office.

[16:47] Michelle: And so he’s like those other men that’s working for free for the church. But it’s really for the, for Brigham and the leaders that are, it’s that same story. Ok.

[16:57] Dan Clute: And so she uh my wife had to go to the tithing office for the weekly allowance for the family. And there she saw that only the court big bugs as some call, the leaders could obtain such articles as butter, meat, eggs, et cetera for their wives could obtain whatever they asked for. But she must be content with a little flower and such vegetables as they if she could carry home. And to cap the climax. When she went to the church on Sunday, she heard Hebrew C Kimball preaching about the men on the public works grumbling because they could get nothing but dry bread to eat. Then and then in the vehemence of his pious zeal, he said, damn it dip it in the city creek and wet it. There is no need to eat dry bread. As long as there is plenty of water in the city creek so well. OK. Uh Page 27 and eight, our eyes began to open to the spirit that actuated our leaders. And I examined more deeply into the matters than before. The more I examined the more corruption I found, even with those who claimed to be the living oracles of God to the church, the fruit of the tree was bitter. But the principles of the Gospel which I had obeyed were true. They were in perfect harmony with the scriptures. In fact, they were the pure word of God. And here was the enigma with my poor mind which my poor mind cannot solve. How could wicked ambitious aspiring men receive such light upon God’s word as to be able to weave a system of religion. So in harmony with holy writ that not a flaw could be found, not even a single point upon which a valid objection could be hung. I refer to the gospel as taught by Joseph Smith before polygamy had thrust its lecherous head into our view.

[18:43] Michelle: Oh, that’s an amazing quote. It’s just, it’s, it’s just so painful to see what these aspiring men did with the true gospel that’s said beautifully. That’s

[18:55] Dan Clute: even greater condemnation on the day of judgment when you sin against knowledge and truth

[19:01] Michelle: and taking the Lord’s name in vain in such a profound way using the gospel to convert people to move them into your system where you take advantage of them. It’s terrible.

[19:11] Dan Clute: Right. That’s exactly what happened. Difficulty to live in the midst of corruption became painfully aware that I had made a mistake, but it was difficult to live in the midst of corruption and be kept, kept from taint. And if it was difficult for me, how would it be for my Children if they had to be reared under its influences, mingle with other Children that were trained from the cradle in its corruption and fed with its poison. I struggled on under adverse circumstances. But the longer I stayed, the more I became painfully aware that I had made a mistake in supposing I could raise my Children under righteous influences where such a system obtained as that which here had been attached to the gospel under the deceptive name of celestial marriage. It is true that most of purity, but the very atmosphere was impregnated with lust. Groups of men could be seen at street corners and public places with their eyes fixed upon every female that passed. And more especially the young women from the lips of these men would fall some filthy lewd expression such as could only spring from a lecherous heart, nor was the sacred desk which had been professionally consecrated to the gospel of purity free from this accursed taint. It too was desecrated to the spreading and encouraging of this system of lust called celestial marriage with all its filthy tendencies. This

[20:35] Michelle: is fantastic. I mean, fantastic. I mean, these quotes are just so spot on

[20:41] Dan Clute: the tithing had brought in a good supply to the tithing store year after year. But this was only available to those who had control and such as were dependent on them and also to such employees as were considered necessary in the public works. Of course, all the leading men had farms of the realm from which their families were amply supplied. And if they lacked, they could draw from the tithing store money or clothing were the only commodities that would buy bread stuffs. As both of these articles were very scarce clothing brought there by the storekeeper was very costly. Most of the immigrants from other countries brought a supply for themselves and families in many instances, their clothing served to furnish them with bread. But there were many immigrants who had barely enough money to pay for their passage to the mountains. Hence, when they arrived, they found themselves not only destitute of money, but scant of clothing such was my fate and always loving you. See, my family, uh myself neatly clad, we clung to it as long as we could without perishing for food. They have to give their clothes just to eat. But necessity drove us to dispose of it to the best advantage we could. We will notice this hereafter, it’s almost impossible to buy bread stuffs on credit. If you could, a note had to be given, drawing 10% interest thus thrusting the poor down lower and lower. It was very rare that a gospel sermon was heard. And when the lesser officers visited the members, the above was the burden of their message. With the overshadowing question quote. What do you think of President Young? Do you uphold him as the prophet of God? These two questions were the test of our spirituality and worthiness as members. They were scarcely second to the tithing question. But those who could bear the test of the threefold shibboleth were considered worthy of exaltation, hence entitled to as many wives as they chose. But the spirit of rebellion had seized upon me. I determined to be a free man and do my own thinking, let the consequences be what they may. And for the time I rebelled in spirit, but I kept a still tongue and minded my own business so that I was not suspected of harboring what they termed a spirit of apostasy. Visiting officers came around and inquired my feeling toward President Young. I told them truthfully that I was satisfied with him, but had they pressed the matter closer and inquired in what manner I was satisfied. I should have emphatically told them I was satis that he was no prophet of God.

[23:23] Michelle: I love it. OK? I mean, I just how, how he uses the words to say what he needs to say, ok.

[23:30] Dan Clute: But as they were satisfied with my answer, I saw no necessity of re revealing my true feelings and therefore incurring the wrath of the authorities. Yet fear was always there. I had heard that a quote, still tongue, still tongue made a wise head. But I believe that a wise head would keep a still time. I was anxious to have the, I was not anxious to have the Danites lurking in my path. But uh the next one, my endowments.

[24:03] Michelle: OK. Well, while you’re getting that next one, just as you were reading about the poverty and the struggle and having to sell their clothes to buy their food reminded me of Eliza Snow’s poem. Have you read? Have you read? It was in the hymnal. Think not when you gather to Zion. So this is how they would keep the people down as they were suffering this when they had come to Zion. And this is the reality. So this was written by Eliza Snow who was kept in the lap of luxury as one of Brigham’s wives, right? And this is what the people would see. It says, think not when you gather to Zion, your troubles and trials are through that. Nothing but comfort and pleasure are way in Zion for you. No note is designed as a furnace, all substance and textures to try to consume all the wood, hay and stubble, the gold and the dross purify. Anyway, it goes on and on about. Yep. Don’t think that your life is gonna be good in Zion. That’s not what it’s about. And so I’m just thinking of these people being converted to the gospel coming here realizing, I mean, you would hope that after their difficulty coming across the ocean, coming across the plains, there would be some comfort, but instead they have to sell their last article of clothes, articles of clothes they might have in order to even eat. I have a great, great grandmother who died of starvation in a dugout in Lehigh. As a brand new convert, she had a cottage fully paid for in England where she could have lived out the rest of her life. And I mean, it, the story goes on and on and on. And so when they come here and they’re in this situation, this hymn is the comfort. What did you think it was gonna be easy and comfortable? It anyway, it’s amazing.

[25:42] Dan Clute: I don’t know if it’s in Derry’s account. It might be in brushes which we won’t get to today. But what some of these people left from England come to America then traveled 1000 miles or 1300 miles to get to Utah. The first thing that was, they were tied 10% of everything they had. If they had no money, it was the, the, the, the clothes, the goods, whatever the tools they brought with them and the, and the authorities or the leaders chose what of their use for the, the 10% tithing. I

[26:12] Michelle: didn’t know that. So they were

[26:14] Dan Clute: probably broke when they got here and then really in trouble and they

[26:18] Michelle: were

[26:20] Dan Clute: one of the counts. OK. OK. That’s uh my endowments. It was about that time that bishop uh Bingham thought that as I had not received my indolence, I had better receive them. I had had no thought of applying for them. But as he was now suggested it, I made no opposition. He wrote out a recommendation. And as near as I can remember these words, President Brigham, young brother Charles Derry is worthy to receive all the blessings, his heart desires. Yours. In Christ Erastus Bingham, I took the paper home and after wife and I retired to bed, I made known to her what I had received from the bishop. I did not tell her in the day lest other ears should hear. Notice. You just gotta be careful about what you say here. After telling her of the recommendation, I told her I did not want to receive an but she inquired why I told her I had been brought in contact with many who had received them and as they were always some who were anxious to tell all they knew. And as I was a good listener, I was willing to hear and from their declared experience, I concluded there were oaths to take that I could not conscientiously subscribe to and I should be under the necessity of refusing which refusal would likely to bring down their wrath upon me. This little revelation filled her with surprise and she wept bitterly. She believed the gospel with all her heart was never thought of deception from those whose hands she had received it. She was not prepared to suspect wrong in the teachings and practices of the living oracles. Some might wonder why I had not told her of these things. My reasons were these. I loved her and did not desire to cause her any unnecessary sorrow. I had ever confidence in her abiding love for me. But there was danger in her making my views known to her sister who to sister, who was a radical Brigham might but a good woman, she would not do this with a view to betray me. But in her innocence and confidence, she might drop such words as might lead to suspicion that something was wrong. Hence, I kept my own fears and doubts burning in my own breast until proper time when I could divulge them with safety, suffice it to say I never sought for any endowment but burned or otherwise destroyed the recommendation from the bishop and b in my time. What wife was perfectly satisfied to risk our gaining eternal life without our endowment?

[28:35] Michelle: Wow. OK. I, as we keep going, I’m just gonna remind everyone this book. I will link below where we can get it because this is one that I think we’re gonna want to read you.

[28:45] Dan Clute: This is one you want to read. OK. He says I have no desire to create the impression that the mass of the people of Utah were bad. On the contrary, I’m satisfied there were many God fearing people who had made great sacrifices for the truth. But like myself, they had been blinded by their leaders and were led into error through their sincere belief that those men were truly inspired of God. Hence, they did not question their teachings. Another object of the reformation seemed to be disco uh to discover who were the doubters as to his claim to divine calling as prophet and president of the church. This object was manifest when he saw the anxiety of the inquisitors to know and what light we regarded President young woe betide, the man who dared to express a doubt as to the divinity of his calling, either as prophet or lawful president. He was a marked man. If he was laboring man, he would lose his employment. If a business man, his trade would fall off. And these were the least evils he might expect. I was in a meeting called by Lorenzo Farr and others of this inquisition when every man was called upon to covenant that he would not hear or speak disrespectfully of President Young and they were told it was their duty to knock such a man down. They were further told that no man would be promoted, permitted to leave the territory. And if they attempted to leave, they must leave their property and their wives and Children behind. I leave it to the common sense to judge how far such men who were stripped of all that was dear to them would be permitted to go. Uh Oh, and ok, the next one, Brigham’s minions were always ready to complete their fiendish work. Uh I think it was in 1857 or 1858 that Henry Jarvis and his wife were waylaid in one of the streets in Salt Lake City one night on the returning home from a visit by a band of these cut throats and stripped of their clothing and their bodies be smeared with human excrement and their mouths filled with the same. I wrote a similar story to this and under communism.

[31:01] Michelle: Yeah, I was going to say this sounds so North Korea and the US sr and that like this is horrified. It’s the totalitarianism that is the horror the in, in psychopathic systems, the psychopaths raise to the top, rise to the top, right? And so it breeds this kind of even though most of the good people wouldn’t ever participate in it or even believe it, it enables it to happen. And then everyone just has to keep, keep it quiet or you’ll be next. It’s really concerning,

[31:33] Dan Clute: you know, this man Jarvis was an Englishman and had spent years of labor in the mission field in England. But after immigrating to Salt Lake Valley, his eyes had become open as to the true status of things and the bitterness of his disappointment. He had had given vent to his feelings in words, not complimentary to the authorities in Utah. And at the crook of Brigham’s finger, the Danites visited this filthy, degrading and fiendish, fiendish v vengeance upon the poor man and his wife. Does the religion of Jesus Christ justify such devilish work. Does it stand in need of such diabolical defense from such my soul turns away in utter disgust. Is it any wonder that thousands lost all respect for men who could sanction such damning deeds to say nothing of those ordering them to be done? Wow. One of the threats made by Brigham Young was that if they did not obey the law, now they would be brought under the mosaic law. Ok? When I read this, this is what I thought Apostle Paul referring to the mosaic law states in Romans chapter eight verse two. For the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ. Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. The mosaic law was referred to as the law of certain uh sins you committed, you were put to death,

[33:04] Michelle: also eye for an eye and tooth, for a tooth. You could have your eye put out, you could have, I mean the way that Brigham interpreted things and would have interpreted things and the reign of terror. It, it, it’s pretty horrifying. And if you read through actually the old law, having your nail, um, your, your ear nailed to the lentil is just one example of what I’m thinking of, like a brutal, brutal law if you wanted to enforce it that way.

[33:30] Dan Clute: Yeah. He said if you don’t know by the law now, given they would be brought under the mosaic law. And that’s the first thing that comes to my mind. It’s the law of said and I don’t know.

[33:39] Michelle: Yeah, I don’t trust Brian to implement the mosaic law as the Jews do. Now, he would have done it. He was, he was threatening that there will be more blood and horror if you, if you, you know, he was just, it was just a means of control. Yeah.

[33:55] Dan Clute: In the meantime, Brigham claimed to have a revelation from God commanding the raising of a standing army of 2000 men accordingly, an inventory of every man’s property was taken and a tax levied upon the same to furnish every necessity for the equipment and maintenance of the army, which was to consist of Calvary. If one person could fit out one or more men, he had to do it. If it required 20 men to fit out one, they must do it. The poorest had to do according to their means. For the prophet Brigham said, quote, the Lord required it, the means were raised, the men equipped but perhaps Uncle Sam’s icy fetters were broken and the mountains of snow had melted. And Brother Brigham saw the fiery determination in Uncle Sam’s eye to enter those valleys. If he had to wade through the blood of Brigham’s host for Brigham declared the Lord accepted the sacrifice and the standing army was disbanded. But Brigham’s Lord forgot to return the poor man’s cow or horse, et cetera. Now that they were no longer needed, perhaps Brigham needed them.

[35:09] Michelle: Yes, I uh again and again and again. Wow, this is, this is phenomenal information and I could be putting up the pictures of Brigham’s homes because that’s just one element that we know of the wealth that he the luxury and wealth that he enjoyed as he did these tactics repeatedly to his people. I just, it’s just reminding me of what I just read about in Isaiah quoted in the book of Mormon about eat your own, they will be fed on their own flesh and they will drink their own blood. And how when you follow your own based doctrines, you cannibalize yourself and how Brigham fattened himself off of his people. It’s really horrific to get into the details.

[35:53] Dan Clute: Well, I won’t say what I’m thinking. Uh The difference between the conferences earlier referred to being a mark I know from being a marked man. OK. The difference between the conferences of the organized church and those of The Utah order is very marked in the latter, every matter brought before the people was quote, cut and dried before being laid before the conference proper. And everyone was expected to raise his hand in favor of every measure presented by the authorities. And he would be a bold man who dared to cast his vote in opposition. By this means they secured a nominal unity. He who voted in the negative or in opposition would be a marked man. But in the reorganized church, all things are done by quote, common consent as the law of God directs, no man is questioned or snubbed for thinking and voting contrary to the majority. And the last one

[36:59] Michelle: again, that’s just like the elections in totalitarian regimes, right? You’re, you’re allowed to vote, but we’re going to stand here and watch you vote and make sure you do it right.

[37:08] Dan Clute: It’s you better be smiling and clapping your hands every time you something. Uh OK. This is the last 1130. OK. This one’s on blood atonement this evening. Mr Thomas Berg before mentioned, visited the House of Richard Stokes and gave me the following recital which agreed so harmoniously with the statements I heard in Utah from the lips of staunch members of the church there who supposed I was in full fellowship with them that I could not doubt Byrd’s statement. He said he was sent to Fort Supply in a small company under the presidency of William Thompson. While there, he was summoned to meet at midnight where he was charged with having opposed Bishop Harker and also Bishop winners and the authorities generally. And for this, it was determined by the council to cut bird’s throat. He said the members of the council took their shoes off their feet and token as he supposed of the ground being holy. A man named Meeks referred to a letter from Brigham Young instructing him that since he had broken his endowment oaths, that’s probably why dry didn’t want to take him. They must save him by cutting his throat and then go to his wife in her bed and cut her throat. And those of the Children need leaving no one to tell the tale. He had not had his endowments nor placed himself under any oath, never having been in the Holy of Holies. They were astonished and Bishop Thompson declared they had no right to kill him, but they would watch him closely. And if he ever broached anything of this matter, they would kill him. This statement is so horrible that if I had not heard their teaching on the blood atonement and heard statements from the believers in it, telling what would be the result of breaking their endowment oaths and others telling of what had been done under such circumstances. I would not give it place here by had become so disgusted at the treatment he had received that he watched every opportunity and finally escaped to the armies of the United States. Then at Camp Floyd and made his escape from the territory with his family. Let me hear, inject that that army was a godsend indeed to thousands of people both in affording many an opportunity to return to the States and in fur and in furnishing work and money to others there. So that was the highlight

[39:45] Cheryl Clute: in the back of that book. Uh If anybody buys it, it until it has the like three page thing of uh called Reasons for leaving Utah even, you know, that goes with the book too. But it’s also online with those things that I sent you that they can put, I put the references there. We haven’t even got started yet. I mean, my goodness, let me show you, I’ve got, see, can you see the pages marked these three, this lady named Pearl Wilcox. She wrote a series of five different books and uh three of them contain, here’s another one contain um account, first hand accounts and, and what’s what I love about these books? You can’t get them. They’re out of print. But Paul Ludy, who, who deals with old, uh all these books, that’s where I got mine from and he, he can probably locate them if anybody would want to get them. But anyway, uh what I love about these books is and Jeremy Hoop, if you’re listening, you’ll want to get these books um behind each chapter, this Lady Pearl Wilcox is who did, who did it? All these books, um, is so well documented journals, uh, whatever, wherever it is it tells exactly where you can find these accounts. And it’s amazing because she did an excellent job on her research and she put down every periodical or every diary or whatever in journal history. Wherever it’s located, it tells where you can locate these. That’s invaluable. Yeah, they’re, they’re really good. This one here, I, I’m not gonna read all of them. But uh so many of the people that, that as we’re discovering all this, um they’re converts from the British Isles, Scandinavian countries, Europe. You know, and I mean, they went through so many hard things just to get over here. But anyway, this is a guy and his name is David Powell. Elder David Powell had accepted the gospel in South Wales. His wife Anne was also of Wells, wells convert. They were married in 1850 came to America. Anyway, upon arrival in Salt Lake, they found the doctrine different from that which they had been converted to in wells. The church officials asked David to take an additional wife after he had become a prosperous farmer and could afford to do so. Uh He didn’t do it. He knew leaving was dangerous and the family was more afraid of the church’s day and night guards than the Indians of the Pioneer West. They wrapped gunny sacks around their horse feet and the wagon wheels to hold down the noise as they made their escape. During the night, the Children were hidden under the straw in the wagon box and told not to make a sound if they were stopped. So anyway, he, they fled, they got out of there. Ok. So the next family was the Morris family and these are them. And uh in 1864 Nathan Morris with his son Isaac and their families went to Salt Lake City Utah, hoping to find the true church established under Brigham Young. They had not heard of the reorganization as of yet. After being there only a short time, they discovered their heir. They found the Mormons had strayed from the original doctrines. They were teaching polygamy, Adam God worship and blood atonement. The morrises made preparation to get away and return to Illinois. But the Mormons were determined that no one should leave rather it would be better for them to die in the faith. The morrises began to store store and hide food, wheat and corn were ground and stored under the floorboards of their homes. After a year of hoarding, they felt they could slip away. They soaked their wagon wheels in water to stop the squeaking and wrap their ox feet and old sacks and cast off clothing to prevent their making any noise on the rocks. During the darkness of the night, they left another family who had also planned to leave but were left behind, betrayed the morrises leaving to their enemies and then followed to try to catch up members of the last party were overtaken by Brigham Young’s destroying angels and killed thinking they had destroyed the entire group of escapees. As the Morrissey’s worked their way back across the country under very hazardous circumstances. They halted in Iowa and there, they stayed there and then moved on to Illinois. But so the other family that stayed behind and then ratted them out, then decided to go ahead. Anyway.

[44:48] Michelle: They were, they didn’t intentionally, maybe they just got, were not quiet enough or something. You know, they don’t, didn’t necessarily, they

[44:55] Cheryl Clute: were, they were, uh they found out that

[45:00] Michelle: according to these stories, the situation was you could not speak out, you had to keep your mouth shut and you couldn’t leave. So they like, like it was truly a terror zone. Wow. Ok.

[45:14] Cheryl Clute: And see, I have that’s, I got more in this book too. But like in this, in this book here, you can see all the tabs I have on here,

[45:22] Michelle: show us what the books are all called. And then it’s Yeah,

[45:26] Cheryl Clute: Woods of the reorganized Latter Day Saints in Southern Iowa by Pearl Wilcox, Regather Regathering of the Scattered Saints in Wisconsin and Illinois by Pearl Wilcox and then uh Saints of the organization in Missouri by Pearl Wilcox. There’s two more, but they don’t, they’re not like what I needed

[45:46] Michelle: relevant. Ok. But really, if we can digitize those, I would love to put them on my website in

[45:52] Cheryl Clute: all these tabs right here are all people that, um, they went, they came from the British Isles or whatever country. Some of them from nut, they hand cut hand cart stories and about the terrible stuff they went through. Um, I’ve got an account that I’m just gonna quote, try to quote it as best from memory. But anyway, this one family left with Brigham, uh, and was on the wagon train and they got into Iowa and, uh, they, they had a real, real young, pretty daughter and Brigham was sitting there less than after and he looked, he kept looking at her and he turns to this man and he says, you know, brother, so, and so if I would ask you to let me have your daughter as one of my wives, you’d let me and, and the guy looks at him and he said I put a bullet through your black heart first.

[46:48] Michelle: Wow.

[46:49] Cheryl Clute: Yeah, these are some of the accounts but, uh, he

[46:53] Michelle: wasn’t killed or chased out like, so, so there are people who were allowed to happen

[46:57] Cheryl Clute: is after that, a lot of these people that were going across Iowa and, and on the winner’s quarters, they ended up not going, they stayed in I and, and in Nebraska and then later on they, they came in with, into the organization. But I mean, the things I mean, I, I’d have you on here for hours more. Michelle. Uh There’s just one account after another, after another of the sad things they would get to Utah. And the f like Danny said earlier, the very first thing they did when they got there and these people had sacrificed everything they would get there. And the first thing the hierarchy henchmen would be standing there saying, OK, where’s your tithing? We need 10% of whatever you got. And he’s, and they’re like, well, we don’t even have that. And they said, OK, well, you don’t have it. Then you got to give us all your stuff that’s of any value. And they would go through it and take the, take it. I’m talking people in the hierarchy would take whatever they wanted. China tea sets from England or, or, you know, silk fabric or some kind of fabric. They would bring a wedding ring anything. And if they didn’t have it, they make them sign a piece of paper that would uh say that you owe us your top 10% of your tithing with 10% interest on top. Oh my gosh. And then, and then so many of these people, they lost everything and then they ended up living, like you said about your grandmother in dugouts. They were eating uh some kind of weed. I don’t

[48:36] Michelle: know. Dandelion greens. They were trying to survive on dandelion greens and pig weed. Yep. And do you know what else? A lot of the, um, there was one tragic story I’ve read and I darn it. I won’t remember her name. A poor family, I believe in Scotland. He’d had an accident and had been blinded the father. So they were very poor and they became converted. So they told them that they could send their Children over on the perpetual Immigration fund, which really was nothing short of indentured servitude honestly. And um, so the the teenage daughter and the son just younger than her came over because they just had to come their family bit by bit. So she came over as a young teenager, not yet 16, maybe 14 was immediately married off. And I think it’s, I’m convinced that it was that same kind of a thing like your family is gonna be in debt. You can’t do. You know what I mean? The only way, not only the only way you can eat, but the only way you or your brother can eat or that your family won’t have to pay this debt off is to if you want your family to be able to come over, do you know what I mean? The, the, the pressure that was brought to bear on there is no way that family sent those two Children over intending to sell, sell the daughter into sex, into sex, into, into being as a wife of an old man. That was not what they intended. I’m certain of it.

[49:58] Cheryl Clute: Well, there’s this one account I’m gonna hold it up and it’s on Lad Day truth.org. You can print it out. I sent, I gave the references that I mailed to you emailed you this, this account here. It’s called, it’s called, it was in a periodical in the organization called Autumn Leaves. And it’s called Memories Of Childhood by Senior in parentheses. And then L Jake Hartman Michelle. This one is the most to me, it’s just so heartbreaking. I mean, it, it is and it’s long. But I’m telling you that this family, they, they also went to Weber County, Utah and these Children of these people, they um the Children were taught by Mark Forst and they were friends with Mark Forst. And so, I mean, and they knew Mark had to escape and all that, you know, and later on they had to too. But uh you know, uh just, I just, I’m just gonna read what I put Little Star by. We did not want anyone to think our parents found this is written by the son. OK? He was there, he was, but he took it from their diaries and stuff, but he was there and witnessed it. Uh We do not want anyone to think our parents found the way of truth in Utah. They found Brigham Young teaching ways of his own and with many willing ones to help him, many upheld him because they were like him. They wished to become famous. Others upheld him because he was numbered with the 12. So was Judas Iscariot numbered with the 12 yet he was a traitor for he betrayed the savior in writing in writing our memories of the past. We must tell you we lived in Utah among the people known as Mormons. Yeah. And I’m just gonna skip down. Yes, the church was changed for wicked men had killed the anointed the Lord’s anointed me and Joseph, then Brigham Young succeeded to be their leader without a call from heaven just as the world is full of false leaders. We hope that no one will think that all were bad who went to Utah in those days. Long ago, we have found, we have fond memories of dear friends there who like our parents passed through trials along long and hard from which they were delivered by the merciful hand of God. They, they were in Ohio. They accepted the gospel in 1830 when Joseph, the prophet was there. Uh Then they, they uh they are originally from Ireland, Ireland and then moved to New York City. Um and father and mom, they obeyed the gospel so forth and so on. Our parents, our parents first went to Ogden Utah uh as did our aunt and uncle with our Children who all shared our joy and sorrow in our experiences of the past. Father was soon a favorite with men of influence who advised him to get another wife to which advice he would reply. I don’t see where you find such doctrine, not in the gospel of Christ as recorded in the Bible, nor yet the book of Mormon. Then they would tell him he ought to go through the endowment house. And he would understand as soon as, as such requests were made to father, he would relate them to mother which only filled her life with fear, sorrow and regret anything but peace. She blamed herself for ever consenting to go west as the weeks and months passed by, it was just the same. She was so discouraged that sometimes she wished she had never married at all. Although father told her he would never endorse polygamy. She had fears that he would being associated with so many who were persuading him. Besides she knew wives and mothers whose husband had, had promised the same fidelity and had broken their promise and obeyed their sinful leaders. During those months of trial, mother’s health gave way and so did her faith. But anyway, so I’ll just tell you real quick. So uh surrounded with such evils and so many of un un of so many of unhappy homes. Was it any wonder that mother almost lost her faith in man? And that her first child born in Utah inherited poor health and discouragement. Mother knew of the sinful teachings of Brigham Young years before and that was why she had said regrets and blamed herself for going west. So, uh anyway, she had friends and he did too all around him. And they kept saying you had to go to the endowment house, you got to go to the endowment house and they kept not go, they didn’t want to do it. They kept wanting to go, they wouldn’t do it. So finally, some friends said, if you go, if you decide to go to the endowment house, make sure before you go, that you realize once you go in there, you have to go through all the endowments don’t try to turn around and go. I’m not gonna do this and leave because if you do, we’ve known people that have done that and they never came out alive, you never saw them again. So they were warned. So uh they finally decide to go. All right, now this is gonna make you sick when you hear this, Michelle, what we relate now by, by the, by our parents uh was not, is not good. I’m just gonna say that he says it’s of the devil and skating, you know, Satan’s a scapegoat. So what we relate now for the passing through, we will tell in our own way as we recall the memories from the past. When uh when my mother gathered around the hearthstone, after we were far away from Utah, father would say, yes, mother has told you the two Children, trusting God, they journeyed with the others to the city and learned what was in that house of secrets and what they learned was worse than they had ever heard. It was something like a lodge, but this was a lodge of note for the devil was there. Yes, Satan and the uh the scapegoat they both gave wicked laws in the building was a garden called the Garden of Eden. Mother laughed at the ridiculous proceeding. Then they heard in thundering tones, coarse and loud. Who is that? There’s laugh in the presence of God on the throne set Brigham young pers Impersonating God. Brigham was all thrown, Sandy’s God.

[56:57] Michelle: Well, we know from Brigham’s doctrines that he actually I I I’m going to be doing a presentation soon reading books by Mark Twain and Catherine. Wait kind of along the lines of what you’re reading about. Brigham declaring himself as God and that Hebrew was Brigham’s God, your husband was your God. And yeah, and Hebrew was our God and Adam was his God. And yeah,

[57:22] Cheryl Clute: yeah, on the throne sat Brigham Impersonating God to see him assume that sacred right? Filled their hearts with fear. When mother heard his roaring voice, she wished that she could leave for. He further said, let this man’s wife come forward and be Mother Eve. No desire, had no desire had she then for laughing, for her heart was filled with sadness in the garden. She went by the side of father from the garden and they passed through their secret rooms robed in white, their other clothes were laid aside to learn other secrets. They passed on side by side, they were told they could go back if they wished to. But if, but if they would go forward, they were promised great blessings hereafter. And during their lives, they went to another room where they learned the cutthroat signs, they learned how terrible and sad their fate. If they disobeyed orders or if they related signs and oaths to, to others, they went to another room where a new name was given to each of them to be known by. Should they reach the gates of heaven passing through this ho that house to learn those terrible secrets was the saddest cup of soul ever known to them in life for who could believe in Brigham Young as the God of heaven. Anyway. So it goes on into the blood atonement and stuff and about the uh more stuff in the endowment house anyway. So they, uh they stayed there for a long time. They couldn’t leave some of their friends and family. They, uh didn’t go through in the endowment house and they were able to go into Idaho and Montana to get away. But these people couldn’t leave because they knew if they did that the avenging angels were gonna do blood sacrifices. They

[59:19] Michelle: felt like that there was a feeling that if you had gone through the endowment, then you couldn’t leave because you had taken the oaths. That was the feeling.

[59:29] Cheryl Clute: That’s it. And they, and so what happened was, is they, they started moving from place to place and they went, they went to, from Ogden to, to Weber. That’s where they Mark, Met Mark Forst. He was the teacher there for their Children. He was, he, they really liked him and, and he became a member of the organization, you know, and stuff and, and they started hearing the old time gospel being preached again. And so they knew they had to, they knew they had to escape. They knew that and that he, she even gives an account here of, of how the other, another teacher in that school that was teaching where Mark Forres Scott was. Mark wouldn’t let, let his students do it. But when Brigham Young would go by the schoolhouse, this other teacher who was a real follower of Brigham would make her students line up and as Brigham and his and his men would go by, they’re all his army. He would, she would make these people, the kids bow to him, bow to Brigham and Mark Force wouldn’t do it. He wouldn’t do that. So anyway, so finally they uh they, they joined the, they joined, actually joined the reorganization out there. They’d heard uh Alexander H Smith and then them come out there. And so they joined out there. Uh But one time they decided that they would go back to one of the ward, the ward, they were supposed to go to and they go into the ward and the man the bishop up front given the, the sermon he uh and now you gotta remember they’ve been through the endowment house. So they knew all the secrets. And he made mention about there were, there are apostates in our mist today and he started doing the cutthroat and bow gut and all this stuff and the mother knew. So after the service was over, she went up to the bishop and she said, I know what you’re doing. I know what those signs are. You’re gonna, you’re gonna kill us, you know, you’re gonna, we know what you’re gonna do. And so from that point on, uh, there were so many times that this, this family, they had to just keep moving around Utah. And, uh, finally they were able to, to get out,

[1:01:56] Michelle: we’ll just include all of these below. And I think, because I think we’ve gone over if we have the understanding that we have all of these stories that set the context of what was happening in Utah with the understanding that the law enforcement in Utah was Brigham Young and the home teachers and the people that Brigham Young put in place. I think we’ve got a pretty good idea with the understanding that there are dozens and dozens and dozens of stories like these. And that’s not even getting to things like the Battle Creek massacre. And the Mountain Meadows massacre and the Battle Creek massacre has hundreds of casual it. That’s, that’s what made me stop being able to study it because this is the body count is very high, the more you get into it. And that’s what’s important to understand just so that we can, I, I don’t know, like rid ourselves of the blood and sins of our generation of the false traditions. This is part of our heritage that we need to understand. Instead of just keep denying it is my feeling on it.

[1:03:00] Dan Clute: Can I just read 12 little paragraphs? We got to this one, but I just want to for sure. Ok. Uh I’ll just maybe read three paragraphs. The bondage of these people will be better understood when it is said that as soon as they had left the settlement behind, they would talk freely of the wrongs and the retrogression of the church. But upon their return, they would hush every murmuring word as soon as other ears might hear them. Uh They made preparations to leave. Um We were hoping to get off without any trouble, but as soon as it was generally known that he was going to leave, the official determined to strip him of all that he had. In order to see what he would say, a man was sent out to tell him privately that the people in 10 tended to steal his cattle, but they sent the tax collectors around although it was out of season for them, he was obliged to pay eight different taxes. He’s trying to leave and they’re trying to take everything,

[1:04:08] Michelle: rob him of everything right here.

[1:04:11] Dan Clute: Ok. He was obliged to pay eight different taxes before he was done. Some of which were wholly illegal. A wall was built around the city and he had to pay a wall tax. A seminary was being built. He had removed from Mountain Bill to provo and he had to pay a seminary tax, road taxes, school taxes, city, county and state taxes were also paid just to get out of here just to leave.

[1:04:41] Michelle: And that’s on top of tithing which was forcibly collected.

[1:04:45] Dan Clute: And last of all, a herd bill was presented and paid when he had never had a herd of stock herded by anyone in Utah.

[1:04:56] Michelle: So, ok. Yeah, this is how they did business. Yeah. So

[1:05:02] Dan Clute: they could

[1:05:03] Michelle: just real

[1:05:04] Cheryl Clute: quick. I want to show these. So I put him in the notebooks. I took them apart and the note, but this is called the Saints Advocate. This is volumes one and 41 through four. And then there’s one through five or at 88 through five. In this one, I highly recommend you can get these at the restoration bookstore. Everybody needs to read these Michelle. You can, can you see all the tabs I got on these things. This is, look at all that

[1:05:38] Michelle: I think these are available online, aren’t they? Because I believe I’ve read quite a bit of them as well. I could check there

[1:05:45] Cheryl Clute: is some on Saturday truth there is, but they’re not all there. But I’m telling you those, I went page by Page Michelle and that’s where it talks b atonement polygamy. Adam got, um, unhappy polygamy. All you know, counts where all these, you know, Brigham. Brigham, you know, they got this one thing in there where Brigham says, ok, I’m t you women whining.

[1:06:12] Michelle: Yeah, I’ve read that quote several times. The and, and the incessant whining, everlasting whining. I’ve read several of the quotes and here’s what I want to tell that the people in, in the LDS community like here’s the because I’ve read a lot from um the anti polygamy standard, which was the more, which was the Utah women, the Non Mormon Utah women trying to help. So we have, and then we have all of these reports. You guys are just touching on some of them of people who were in Utah and then fled. And then we have reports of people who traveled through Utah. We have a lot of reports and they are all seem to be in pretty universal agreement about the horror show that was going on in Utah. And here’s the other thing, they are backed up by our very own journal of discourses. So we can see what everyone is saying from outside and then see what’s being said inside and we shouldn’t have to have such a hard time being convinced of the problems that existed here because every testimony lines up. The only thing that’s different is that our teaching as people raised in the church, we were counseled not to read the journal of discourses. We were told that all of these things were anti Mormon, you know, propaganda and, and I think it’s really good for us to be open and willing to grasp with our difficult history. If you need uh um additional testimony, just bring up um pull out the um old teachings of the presidents of the church manuals of Brigham Young and read through how sort of strange the quotes are just really weak and wimpy and partial. And it’s because that’s, those are the little snippets that they could get out that weren’t too terrible for a lot of like the tithing section and a lot of sections. And guess what’s not in that? A section on blood atonement, which was taught often a section on Adam God, which, right. And so it’s, it’s good for us to hear these stories, let our defenses down and, and just want truth so that we can do better so that we can find truth because understanding the entire picture, we’ve, we’ve rejected all of this. There’s no like Mormons do not resonate at all with blood atonement, with these oaths, with the corruption. That’s not our experience. You know what that, that we would relate to, but we still are holding on to polygamy. I think that’s one of the only ones we still are holding on. I think a little bit too much to the higher the hierarchy, the power structure, the inerrancy of profits. The prophet can never lead us astray. We need to have this knowledge so that we can understand ourselves better so that we can have more pure doctrine. So that’s, that’s why I think it’s worthwhile getting into these things. Cheryl and Dan, I, I think this is tremendous work that you’ve been doing and bringing this to us. Tell me what I’ve left out. What do you guys see as why this matters?

[1:09:06] Dan Clute: Well, I just think it, it matters because it’s, it’s part of our history. It may be something we can learn from obviously. And one of the things I think it was Charles Deary said is that we need to learn to do unto others as we would have others do unto us. I think it was somewhere in there. I didn’t read it, but Brigham told everyone to a newcomer would come in, treat him like a rogue, something like that until we find out, you know, if they’re with us so to speak. But Deary points out if you treat everyone like a rogue. Yeah. You know, it’s gonna, it’s not gonna really work out very well for you because they’re gonna, you know, fight back against that type of thing so to speak. But no, I think, I think history is good and uh you know, but the main thing I think is we need to go by what the scripture says. We need to scriptures be our guide. Uh Jesus Christ, his teachings, his prophets. Uh The three books are important and you know everything we it it says in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. So I think whatever our beliefs are, we need to establish them upon the scriptures. That’s very important.

[1:10:22] Michelle: I love that. In fact, while we were off camera for a minute, Cheryl and I were talking about the possibility of getting together with people from our different traditions to have theological discussions, to try to find more truth that maybe both sides are lacking. One thing I really appreciate about you, Cheryl and Dan is, I don’t feel like you’re necessarily coming to us saying we have all of the truth come and join with us. You guys need to, you know what I mean? You’re not proclaiming to be the, the one true church and the leaders that, that are you guys are just trying to share truth for our sakes in our community. At least that’s the impression I get. And you’re just as open to learning as we are open to learning.

[1:11:06] Cheryl Clute: I think that right now all the factions of the restoration are in a mess. They’re a mess. And like I said earlier that it’s, uh, you know, I’ve had a lot of my LDS friends ask me that they, you know, they’re still going, you know, start going to the wards and MU had left. They said Sheryl, what do we do? And I told him, I said, well, are you still ok to go to the ward? They’re not, they’re not paying their 10% no more. They’re not going to the temples. But I said you can still go to your wards. Right? Yeah, I said, well, if you don’t have anybody in your area that you can meet with, like I told Justin Griffin, you know, meet with people of like faith, what you believe and just worship some of the best services I’ve ever been in were outdoors. You don’t even have to meet in the house, wait till the weather is warm and go outside, you know, and just, just worship and, and, uh, have the spirit lead you. Um, I really believe that Jesus is the one that’s gonna have to set this mess in order just like 35. That’s my feeling. And, uh, right, you know, right now, here in the restoration branches, what we’ve witnessed in 40 years, um, I don’t think any of them are right. They might think they are, but, you know, a lot of them are too judgmental and, uh, I think that we have to rely on the Lord and be in his word and have a personal relationship with him. And you know what Michelle, I had a thought come to me and Danny and I were talking about this last night I’ve seen in the organization growing up and I think it’s the same way in the Utah church. It’s always, uh and I’m talking in the church setting, not in my home growing up, but in the church setting, it was more the church, the church, the church, the church when they should have been Jesus, Jesus, Jesus Jesus, you need to bring people to Jesus and let them have a personal relationship with him. And then when you know that, then the Lord will the church, you know, the the Lord did set up a church, you know, but so many people in the, even in the organization that I know have told me that, you know, we never heard too much about Jesus that much and, and you know, uh it was always church, the church and I, I agree with that. I, I witnessed it firsthand growing up, but not in my family because my family, you know, we were taught like I told you in the other podcast that if anything a prophet says that does not line up with former, former doctrine, we gotta question it, we gotta pray about it and then you’ll know same thing, you need to have a relationship with Jesus Christ. And I’ve got a file cabinet full of testimonies of my ancestors that were healed and all sorts of experiences that they had. And it was because they did have a testimony of Jesus. And I think that’s what we need to have. We need to know Jesus. If we don’t know Jesus Christ right now in the time we’re living in, we’re not gonna make it in the days coming because we’re gonna be heading into some really hard times I believe real soon we’re already in it, but it’s gonna get worse. And if we don’t have that relationship with Jesus and know that he is going to preserve us and take care of us, we’re not gonna make it.

[1:14:54] Michelle: I, I love this. I love this is, this is my testimony. What matters is that we are where God wants us. It doesn’t, I’m not gonna try to convert you to my church. You’re not gonna try to convert me to your church because we all see, I love what you said, like the entire restoration is, is like scattered and trying to find our way every single one of us. But I just feel again and again that that’s exactly what it’s supposed to be. God is in charge. It could look any way God wants it to. And I see exactly what you’re saying. The times we are in and are heading into quickly are quite terrifying. However, if we look also at what God is doing, the light and truth that is pouring out the way that these messages are spreading. It’s thrilling and exciting and it’s hard. I have spent a lot of time being scared and trying. Well, I try not to be but, but what do I need to prepare? What do I, you know, kind of preparing against what’s coming? And now I just feel pure excitement, ready to dive into what’s coming because whatever it is, while it might be terrible, it’s also glorious. It’s also going to be glorious because more and more and more truth is going to come forward. And that’s what I think is, whatever branch of the organization we are in, let’s just stay connected to God. Learn to listen to the voice of God know where God wants each of us to be, know what God wants each of us to do. Keep trying to do it with humility and perseverance and repentance and faith and keep going. And we’ve got this, it’s gonna be glorious and wonderful. Let’s get rid of our false traditions. Let’s get rid of our defensiveness. Let’s get, let’s get rid of our fear and just forward forward, right? It’s, it’s actually a glorious time to be alive is what I believe.

[1:16:43] Cheryl Clute: I, I feel the same way and the Lord says in the dark incumbents, my people shall not fear and my people will I preserve. We just have to make sure as individuals ourselves that we are, we are right with God and his son, Jesus Christ and believe, nothing, doubting that he’s going to take care of us.

[1:17:07] Michelle: Uh Dan Cheryl, I cannot thank you enough for this mighty sermon we have enjoyed. I know we had some really dark things to get into. But boy, the testimony of faith is what I hope everyone takes away from this. So, thank you so much. I’m assuming we’re gonna talk again. Dan, did you have something else you wanted to add?

[1:17:28] Dan Clute: Just the last thought I had. I thought, I think it was Benjamin Franklin as they’re fighting the king of England, the superpower and the guys around him, I think it was him that said uh we, we must hang together or we will certainly hang separately something like that. So I think that’s very true for our day and we are in the last days. Uh You know, Matthew and Mark both says, the Lord says, if he doesn’t make time short, there will be no flesh left upon the earth. And so we, we need to hang together uh with God and he will see us through anything that comes under way, anything. I

[1:18:10] Michelle: love it. That’s the other thing we were talking about while we were off camera is if you are not one, you are not mine and what that unity means and you in the restoration branches and me and the LDS church and everyone else, wherever they are united in the desire for truth and for love.

[1:18:25] Cheryl Clute: Hey, we love all you guys,

[1:18:28] Dan Clute: people, God has brought us together,

[1:18:30] Michelle: that’s for sure. I agree. Thank you, Cheryl and Dan. Thank you, everyone that’s tuned in and we will see you next time.