109: Escaping Utah – Part 1 with Cheryl and Dan Clute

Incredible timing! News broke about the Kirtland temple and other properties and manuscripts on Tuesday, and Cheryl and Dan and I already had this interview scheduled for Wednesday morning!
Cheryl and Dan have been collecting stories about the many people who had to flee early Utah for their lives. I invited them to come on and share some of them. Of course, we also spent time discussing the breathtaking news of the sold properties.
We have broken the discussion into two episodes, so look for part 2 coming soon.

Links from Cheryl and Dan:
Firsthand accounts of saints who went to Utah with Brigham Young.

1). Mark H. Forscutt: Diaries compiled by his daughter Ruby C. Faunce
Reference: The Saints Herald, January 16-May 1, 1934
Pages: 75, 111, 143, 173, 207, 271, 303, 333, 368, 399, 431, 463, 497, 531, 555, 556, 559, 560.
www.latterdaytruth.org
Or from Paul Ludy at www.RLDSBooks.blogspot.com
Email at PaulVLudy@gmail.com or www.restorationbookstore.org

2). John Brush: (From his diaries.)
Reference: Autumn Leaves, January – June 1891
Pages: 21-24, 64-67, 127-131, 173-177, 217-221, 274-278.
www.latterdaytruth.org
Or from Paul Ludy at www.RLDSBooks.blogspot.com
Email at PaulVLudy@gmail.com or www.restorationbookstore.org

3). J. C. Clapp:
Reference: Autumn Leaves, November 1907 Vol. 20 No: 11 pages 481-485
December 1907 Vol. 20 No: 12 pages 537-554
www.latterdaytruth.org
Or from Paul Ludy at www.RLDSBooks.blogspot.com
Email at PaulVLudy@gmail.com or www.restorationbookstore.org

4). Autobiography of Elder Charles Derry www.restorationbookstore.com
“Charles Derry’s Reasons for Leaving Utah” www.latterdaytruth.org
Reference: Saints Herald Vol. 2 June 1862– pages 268-274; March 1861—1862.
The Saints Advocate, April 1883 Vol. 5 No. 10 pages 305-310.

5). John and Mary Griffith…Book called: “The Vindicator” written by John and Mary Griffith’s
Granddaughter Iris Griffith from their diaries. Pages: 53, 55, 60, 65, 69-70, 82, 83, 86-94, 97,
99, 102-103, 107, 114, 122-123, 125-126, 129, 131-132.
References: True Latterday Saints Herald, January 1, 1872
(This is book is out of print but it may be purchased from Paul Ludy at:
www.RLDSBooks.blogspot.com or by Email at PaulVLudy@gmail.com)

6). Gomer T. Griffith An Autobiography (book) www.restorationbookstore.com
Reference: The Saints Herald November 2, 1927—February 1, 1928
Saints Herald November 2, 1927 Vol. 74 No: 44 pages 1276-1279
Saints Herald December 7, 1927 Vol. 74 No: 49 pages 1430-1433

7). The Memoirs of President W. W. Blair (page 184) www.restorationbookstore.com

8). Five book series written by Pearl Wilcox from 1972—1989, these books were published by
RLDS Herald House but are out of print. You may be able to purchase them from Paul Ludy at
www.RLDSBooks.blogspot.com or by Email at PaulVLudy@gmail.com
A). Regathering of the Scattered Saints in Wisconsin and Illinois by Pearl Wilcox
David Powell, page: 50
Morris Families to Utah, pages: 162-163
Elijah B. Webb, page: 142

B). Roots of the Reorganized Latter Day Saints in Southern Iowa by Pearl Wilcox
The first chapter is all documented Handcart Testimonies.
Henry Kemp, page 43-44
David Chambers Jr., page 41
Hemming Hansen, pages 45-48
John and Elizabeth Hanbury, page 49
Andrew Hall, page 53
Carliles, pages 34-36
Fredrick Hansen, pages 37-40 or on www.latterdaytruth.org Journal of History 1916
**There are many more accounts in Pearl Wilcox’s five volume set. Each chapters includes references and documentation for each account

9). Charles Wesley Wandell:
Biography of Charles Wesley Wandell
References: Journal of History, October 1910 www.latterdaytruth.org
Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy Volume 1 pages 234-236.
www.restorationbookstore.com
The Saints Advocate, Plano, Illinois November 1878 Vol. 1 No: 5
Pages 64, 67, 68, 69, 70.
The Saints Advocate August 1881 Vol. 4 No: 2 pages 113-114
The Saints Advocate December 1883 Vol. 6 No: 6 on John D. Lee
**Charles Wesley Wandell wrote under the name of Argus, sharing his firsthand knowledge that after Joseph and Hyrum Smith were murdered that Willard Richards and Brigham Young rewrote or changed Joseph’s personal writings and papers.

10). J. W. Coward’s Letter
References: The Saints Advocate December 1881 Vol. 1 No: 6 page 148
March 1882 Vol. 4 No: 9 pages 183-184

11). Memories of Childhood by (SR.) L. J. Hartman
Reference: Autumn Leaves starting in September 1910
Pages: 392-398 (Sept. 1910)
438-445 (October 1910)
489-497 (November 1910)
555-560 (December 1910)
www.latterdaytruth.org

12). Unhappy Polygamy
Reference: The Saints Advocate (Volumes 5-8)
October 1883 Vol. 6 No: 375-376
**I highly recommend reading all of these two books: The Saints Advocate Volumes 1-4 and 5-8 from the Restoration Bookstore and also the Autobiography of Charles Derry.
www.restorationbookstore.org

Transcript:

[00:00] Michelle: Welcome to 132 problems revisiting Mormon polygamy where we explore the scriptural theological and historical case for plural marriage. What a week? This has been many if not most of you will be aware by now of the huge announcement that the LDS church has purchased. It sounds like almost all of the properties I don’t want to overstate but um an immense amount of properties and historical documents from the community of Christ that includes the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible, the Kirtland Temple, the NAU house, the red brick store, Joseph and Emma’s house, the um the grave sites, the list goes on and on and on. And anyway, a lot more information has gone on from there as you will hear us discuss in this conversation. Incredibly, I had already scheduled this conversation with Cheryl and Dan Kloot to take place the very next day after that big announcement came out. So I see the hand of the Lord all over. You’ll remember the clots that they are members of the restoration branches and they are right in the middle of all of this happening. So we got to talk about this huge announcement with people right there in the middle of it, which I think is incredible. And also we had planned to talk about blood atonement, the stories of people escaping from Utah. And so I hope that you will enjoy this conversation with Cheryl and Dan Kloot talking about these momentous things happening this week as well as some very momentous things that happened in the past. So thank you for so much for joining us as we take this deep dive into the very murky waters of Mormon Polygamy. Welcome to this episode of 100 32 Problems. I am here again with my dear friends, Cheryl and Dan Klute who have so kindly and graciously agreed to come back on and help me with a topic that I have been immensely interested in those who listen to my podcast, know that I started to try to cover blood atonement quite a while ago and got really deep into that research when I just had to set it aside and go on other things and I haven’t gotten back to it. But Cheryl in the meantime, for about, I don’t know, has it been a year or more? Ok. Has been sending me resources and um stories of people who had to flee Utah and live to tell their tales, tales and maybe she has more information than that of some who someone else had to tell their story for them. Anyway, I’ve asked Cheryl and Dan to compile some of the stories that we as members of the LDS church that have our heritage or even Utah Mormons or just Utah’s in general maybe aren’t aware of. This is some of the history of our, some of our history that we don’t know about. And I asked Dan and Cheryl to come and talk to us about it. And I want to say from the outset, like I know some people might hear this with some degree of skepticism. And I, I just want to, to say these sources exist, these are stories that were reported and told and they’re no more or less valid than any other history that exists. They are, they exist, we should know about them. We should pay attention to them and people are free to go investigate them further. I know that Sheryl and Dan have a lot of additional resources and reading that they’re going to include for anyone who wants to study more because this is a big topic and they can only give us a small sampling. Cheryl and Dan did I do an ok job on that. Very good.

[03:45] Cheryl Clute: Very good.

[03:47] Michelle: I guess we should introduce you guys again for anyone who hasn’t. I hope everyone has watched the first episode I did with Cheryl and Dan because it’s fabulous. But do you guys want to introduce yourselves or do you want me to,

[04:00] Cheryl Clute: you can, if you want Michelle? Ok. I can do that. I don’t want to take up too much time. So. Well,

[04:05] Michelle: let me just quickly refresh people’s memory. Cheryl was a member of the original R LDS Church and was there in the 19 eighties when the church went quite liberal and the break offs left the church and formed the restoration branches. This is amazing that we’re talking today because she was there when all of the biggest words that paid the most tithing to, what was the R LDS church left because of the direction that R LDS church went. And that has huge implications into what just happened when we’re recording this. It just happened yesterday. I just reported with John Hayek. So we’re gonna talk about that as well. So, Cheryl and Dan have been friends, close friends with the prices. They live right next door to the restoration bookstore. The prices are the ones who, um, who wrote Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy. So they have been front and center for all of this. And Cheryl has been studying all of these topics for decades trying to help people like me. The LDS. People know more about our history. How did I do that? You go ahead and fill in anything I missed.

[05:13] Cheryl Clute: That’s, that’s pretty good. You got me. Yeah, Dan, and I weren’t surprised at all yesterday when we got the news, uh, because we were actually on a tour in, uh, July of 2017, uh, back east and we were the only R LDS restoration is on the bus. They were all LDS. And when we pulled into the Kirtland Temple, several of them started telling us that there’s news that at some point the, uh LDS church was gonna purchase the Kirtland Temple. And I, I told him then I said I wouldn’t doubt it because they’re gonna sell everything to pad their retirement funds. And so, uh we weren’t caught off guard at all. And then when we were, we were actually with the same group of LDS people um doing a dig up in Nauvoo and uh 20 what was it? 2017 or 1817, I think, or 18, I can’t remember. But anyway, when uh the news came out that they had sold the book of Mormon manuscript and the president of the Community Christ church said at least seven times that it was to support their retirement funds. And one of our LDS friends actually looked at us and said that’s all they care about is making sure they’re gonna have enough money to support themselves. And I’m like, yeah. Mhm. And so anyway, when it came yesterday about it, we were really, uh, you know, weren’t taken back. We weren’t surprised but it was hurt hurtful uh because, you know, like, you know, Michelle, my family were in Nauvoo and they, they left, they did not leave at first, uh but later on, they did leave, but they ended up coming into the organization under their original baptisms and ordinations in the late 18 sixties, when Joseph Smith the third had already taken over the church in 1860. And growing up, I mean, my aunt, my great aunt Maudie, she knew firsthand because she was born in 1888 she knew a lot of these Ghanaians that had been there and she got firsthand accounts from them and she would tell me and my mother about them. Um and it’s really heartbreaking because, you know, I feel like they sold our birthright, you know, Emma Emma Smith, she, she that inspired version manuscript. She made a special place in her petticoat and she sewed, sewed it in there so she could wear it every day so that the um Brigham and then would not be able to get it and find it because she wanted all the papers and, and all the manuscripts and journals or whatever that Joseph had in the red brick store or wherever his office was, she wanted all them. But um they wouldn’t, they wouldn’t give them to her. So a lot of that stuff rust and knowing growing up I was told over and over that it was all doc the documents that went west was changed the history of the church and that they raced stuff and wrote stuff in and um I may not get into all that today, but Michelle in my research, why I’ve been working? I have got stuff that proves that.

[08:50] Michelle: Oh, ok. I was, let’s have another conversation in the future about that topic about forgeries and altering documents. There’s so many

[08:58] Cheryl Clute: people that saw this firsthand being do

[09:02] Dan Clute: I was thinking this morning Michelle about the inspired version manuscripts and uh in the Doctrine and covenants, she shut my phone off or I would have read it, read it to you. It’s 10 years also. But referring to those manuscripts, it stated that they would be preserved in safety and who did the Lord use to preserve them in safety? Well, Emma, like she just said, she had hide it, I guess probably when she left her house, she’d hide it in her petticoat or whatever. And I think her house a time or two there was, they got in the morning and someone tried to set a fire or whatever. And I believe if I remember correctly, she said she always believed she’d be safe as long as those manuscripts were in there because the Lord would be taking care of them and preserving them. So when Joseph the third uh united with the organization, I think it was a short time after that. Uh the, they, they sent a couple of representatives from the R LDS to Emma to take those uh manuscripts uh from her, of the inspired version of Joe Smith translation. And it said that she gladly handed them over to them. So the organization always felt like that, that they, the Lord was using them to preserve those manuscripts of the adjustment translation and safety. So I was thinking this morning, um I think there’s something to that. Now, the LDS church is gonna be the one that preserves them in safety. And so I think the Lord, he looks way beyond what we do and things. And so the other example of that was uh David Whitmer when he lived up in Richmond, Missouri Oliver Kron. And he both lived up there when they died. But he had the manuscript to the book of Mormon up there. I think it was the one that was actually purchased from the, the R LDS 45 or six years ago, whatever. But he had that manuscript up in Richmond and a huge tornado come through and tore a lot of stuff up through there, didn’t touch his house because those manuscripts were in there. And he believed that’s why his home was preserved because the book of Mor those book of Mormon manuscripts were there and, and the Lord was preserving them in safety. So I think, I think that alone, we talked the last time we talked that all the just a list of everything that, that was sold, not just the, the, the temple uh or some, but just a lot of things were sold. So I think we, I think the Lord’s preserving them in safety.

[11:42] Michelle: OK? I’m glad to hear that we should back up and fill people in because we didn’t anyone who hasn’t been watching what’s been happening. So today we’re recording, this is Wednesday the 6th March sixth. On March 5th, it was announced it was, the news was broken by John Hayek who put his own offer in the community of Christ. So the R LDS church changed to become the community of Christ. And they, at the time around the time that they forced many of you out, that many of you felt like you couldn’t stay anymore. They have had in their possession, possession the Kirtland Temple, many of the Kirtland um properties, Joseph and Emma’s homestead. Also the mansion house, the the grave sites. What help me know what else in Nauvoo? And oh, those things are in Nauvoo. I’m sorry. Yes, the Nauvoo, the red brick store, those things in Nauvoo. Ok. And then also the Kirtland Temple in Kirtland. And are there other properties in Kirtland as well? I’m not really too sure.

[12:45] Dan Clute: Those were kind of the big things probably, but there was a lot of little things. Also, my son sent me a list. He got somewhere, a lot of little things also. Yeah,

[12:55] Michelle: we’ll post that below. But also another big thing is the original Joseph Smith translation that was also included. And so the R LDS church announced is it was it President Vesey? Is that who it was who announced that they didn’t have the, they didn’t have the finances to fulfill the, fill their obligations for the retirement funds for the employee leaders of the church. And so, and so that’s how you knew because you told me in our last conversation that this was going to happen, you were prophets. It’s true. And, and this is what’s been amazing is, well, this is, this is all crazy. I’ll tell you from my perspective. I did a recording on um Monday with a historian named Cheryl Bruno, who’s fantastic. And we had been talking a bit about John Hayek. So yesterday morning, I texted John and was like, hey, I just wanted to let you know we were talking about you and you know, we had a great conversation and when, when can you talk again? And then he responded and then just like an hour later, he was live on Facebook announcing that that had happened. So I texted him back. I was like, come talk to me about it and we had this interview scheduled for today already. So it feels very providential that all of this is happening. And I wasn’t necessarily planning to um post our conversation this coming Sunday, I guess today when it’s being released. But I talked to my editor, I’m like, ok, we’re doing the clue on Sunday because this is all incredible that this happened right now and that we were going to talk. So I did want to say the story you’re talking about Emma and the petticoats and the, the manuscript that I think is part of why she was, she dared to walk across the frozen river? Was it the Missouri River? I’m not great with geography. The Mississippi, that was the Mississippi. And she had one baby in each arm. Little Joseph and Julia hanging each to one side of her skirts. She was carrying her two babies and her two little Children. And the only thing she carried with her, other than her Children was the manuscript in her skirts, which that is the dedication and sacrifice. That is the heritage of the R LDS church. And when I’m looking at it, I see, I don’t want to offend anyone who’s RL who’s it com community in the community of Christ. I think they’re great people. However, to me, it feels like they betrayed their founders, they betrayed Emma and Joseph the 3rd 1st of all by, by starting to declare that Joseph was a polygamist and that the book of mum wasn’t inspired and that Joseph was a Charlatan, which is where they went. So that’s what they did that forced you, you to leave Cheryl. And then, and now we’re just a little while longer where they’ve betrayed this other part of their heritage to give away all of the well, sell, not give away but sell all of the important artifacts that were entrusted to their care. So I guess it just follows because they had already sold the reputation of our founding family. Joseph and Emma and Joseph the third because if you claim that Joseph was a polygamist, they were all liars and Emma was a crazy lady. Right? So they’ve already betrayed that and now they’ve betrayed this part of it is how I would imagine you guys might be feeling about

[16:08] Cheryl Clute: this. I I’m a just sitting here with tears in my eyes. Um You know, because, you know, my ancestors, you know, they went through the great depression and a lot of my ancestors did and they sacrificed so much to help pay the funds when they had what was called the Inde Independent Sanitarium and Hospital to be built for the Saints. And then rest haven was go was like a, a retirement place or people that got sick, elderly could go. And if you didn’t have the money to go, they would take care of it. They sold our cemetery, they sold the Santa, they sold all of it. The hospital, the nursing home, the, the cemetery, they’ve been the Mons Mill. They’ve sold everything they can, thousands

[16:58] Dan Clute: of acres of

[16:59] Cheryl Clute: farmland, best, best farmland there is along the Missouri River. The most richest soil there is. They’ve sold it all for their retirement funds.

[17:09] Dan Clute: Harold. We had our own publishing house, Herald Publishing House. All this has been sold. I’m

[17:14] Cheryl Clute: just Michelle, I’m just thankful that my parents and my and my great aunt Maudie, that was like my grandmother. She, you know, she taught us to is growing up and my mother too. Do not put your trust in the arm of flesh. If a prophet says or does anything that goes against former revelation, don’t believe it. And that’s how we knew in 1984 when all this star stuff started coming out. And I’m thankful that we left in 84 and that not one set of our tithing for the last 40 years has been contributed to their retirement funds. It’s gone to help the gospel go forward, the restored gospel and it’s gone to help the poor needy. And you know, I think that when you gotta sell off a heritage, you’ve given up your birthright. And it’s, it’s very sad. I mean, I’m, I got tears in my eyes right now just talking about it because I wonder what’s next? I wonder if they’re gonna somehow get sell the auditorium. Are they gonna sell the stone church? I don’t know. They’re selling buildings all over the country churches. Uh, we got friends all over different states and they’re selling so many of the, the community Christ churches. They just sold one in Maine. I just talked to a friend yesterday in Maine. They just sold it in Maine on Stonington, Maine. Um They’re selling campgrounds, everything and it, what’s so sad about it is they don’t hesitate to say it’s going into our retirement funds. You would think the community of Christ people that are still there would figure it out. That’s not really. And and I’ll tell you what, I, I wouldn’t be surprised in the days ahead now that they’ve sold the manuscript to the, to the LDS church of the book of Mormon. And now they’ve got the inspired version. I’m wondering how long, I don’t know. I’m just wondering how long they’ll even continue to use anything but the uh new international version of the Bible. That, that’s what I think they use, isn’t it one of the revised standard? But I’m just saying, I, I see in the near future inspired version of the book of Mormon probably DNC going away,

[19:54] Michelle: they’ve already started. I know to step away from them. And I want to say, I know that this is Cheryl and Dan with really raw fresh feelings. Me as a member of the LDS Church, them as members of the restoration branches. If there are any community of Christ listeners who would like to reach out to me and like to come and kind of talk to me from your perspective, I’m very open to hearing it and sharing it. I think this is a valid perspective as well because because Cheryl, you, at least I know Dan, you, you converted later. I believe Cheryl, your family heritage is in the R LDS church. So what’s so difficult that, that the R LDS church?

[20:32] Cheryl Clute: Well, we were both church and then into the organization.

[20:37] Michelle: OK. But, but you anyway, I guess what I’m feeling is that you are stakeholders in this. This is your heritage, like somebody who was raised in the LDS church and then felt kicked out but still believed and they sell the temple and they sell that, you know, like this and, and it’s just to pay the retirements of the employees and the leaders that isn’t, I can, I can see why that because you’re like, this was ours. This is not just yours. I feel that way about my church with my leaders. It’s not just your church to do whatever you want with it. It’s all of ours. And this is a really palpable example of that. Well,

[21:15] Cheryl Clute: on the community of Christ website last night, they, they have a chat thing and there were several people that are into the community of Christ that are very, very upset and they said they said, I don’t understand. We’re just the quorum of 12 with the authority to do this. This should have been voted on in all the quorums and then brought to the general conference to be voted on by the people and that didn’t happen and that’s against the law of the church.

[21:45] Michelle: Oh, you know what can I just say that like if we have a big company or an investment house or bankers and they sort of in their, under their management, their organization goes into the ground, you know, gets run down to where they can’t afford their retirements. People would be pretty angry at them still taking their retirement when their bad management oversaw the failure of their organization. And so in a way, if you can’t afford your retirement because of what happened under your management, maybe you don’t get your retirement rather than you sell the properties that are the heritage of the organization you were entrusted to oversee. That seems like a valid, I, I would imagine many community of Christ people maybe feel quite betrayed and upset about

[22:36] Cheryl Clute: lots of them are heartbroken. I got a phone call last night from a friend and uh he was telling me quite a bit, he’s in the restoration, but he got a call from a, a person that told him a bunch of stuff that’s in the queen of Christ and it’s, she’s heartbroken and so is her best friend. They just can’t believe it that this has happened because it goes against the law. We’re, we’re told in our, in the organization that we are supposed to be doing our things by the voice of the people, not the voice of the Corp of 12. And that did not come to the general conference and I’m sure if it had, if it would have probably been voted down. Yeah. And we’ll see what happens. I think a lot of, I think this is, has, has woken a lot of the community, Christ people up that have been sleeping for 40 years. OK.

[23:30] Michelle: So I have one more question on this topic about the selling of the properties? What is your feeling about the LDS church? What do you think might happen? What is your hope? What is your fear? I don’t know. I, you know, I’m not in, um, I, I, I’m curious to know how sort of the community of Christ members and the restoration branch members view the LDS church as a steward. And what do you anticipate may happen? What do you hope may happen? And what do you fear may happen?

[24:02] Dan Clute: Well, like I said earlier, I think, you know, I’m trying to look, look in the future, the Lord knows everything. And so I don’t, I think if the coc would have kept it, they just didn’t have the funds to, to preserve those things the way they should be and taken care of the way they should be. And I think the Lord’s looking ahead and he’s taken care of these things, you know that and he’s, he, he’s allowed this to happen so that they can be preserved and all these things are in the Lord’s hands. And uh you know, I, I just, I think just like we talked about and I think the last podcast, the temple lot church was gonna build a temple on the temple lot and they had a big hole dug for the foundation or whatever. And I, I can’t remember if they ran out of money or what happened and someone told me or recently that the R les church and I could be wrong on this, but it could be right. I actually had to give them the money to fill the hole back in. Oh, ok. And so it did. So obviously, you know, all things are in the Lord’s hands and, and he’s taken care of his, these really belong to him. Right. All this everything belongs to the God. And so I just don’t think that the coc would be able to, they would crumble to the ground because they just don’t have the finances to take care of those properties. And so I think, I think the Lord’s involved with this where he’s preserving those properties and the LDS church are gonna be the ones, uh that, that’s gonna preserve them. The Lord will use to preserve them. He controls everything. So I don’t, I don’t have any fears of anything. Uh, everything’s in the Lord’s hands and we just have to trust, trust that, you know, and I, I truly believe the LDS, uh people church will, will take care of those things properly the way they should be. So that’s probably why

[26:00] Cheryl Clute: it happened. And I, I feel like I’ve said before, Michelle that right now, all of the factions of the restoration are in a big mess and I believe it’s only Jesus Christ that’s gonna be able to set this mess in order just like he did in Third Nephi. And he’s gonna say there’s not gonna be any more contention or, or uh division over the points of my doctrine. And at some point, I think like Danny just said, the Lord is using the LDS church right now to hold on to those things because who know where they would have ended up. So at some point, I truly believe we will all be together again in God’s perfect timing.

[26:43] Michelle: Ok. I love that. And yes, I do wanna just two quick things, John Hayek did point out a very important distinction between preservation and restoration and he really hopes they will be preserved, not restored. And then I think the big nightmare scenario which I don’t see happening. But I think that some people are concerned about as like the worst case scenario is that the LDS church changes the Kirtland Temple into a functioning LDS temple that requires recommends and that um would would kind of divide and exclude and iii I really don’t think that will happen. So, but those are the things that we are trying to say, please preserve, don’t restore, right? And please make them open, welcome and unifying rather than sectarian, sectarian with that. They’re just LDS and divisive Michelle.

[27:39] Dan Clute: I thought I’d read something coming from the LDS church in Utah that that’s what they plan on doing

[27:46] Michelle: the

[27:47] Dan Clute: Kirtland Temple and that it’s gonna reopen like March 25th, something like that and free to go into and from what I, where I read, that’s what the plans are now anyway to keep them the way they are for historical purposes and allow anyone to go in and free tours, no charge for people that want to go in. So we’ll see. Hopefully it stays that way.

[28:09] Cheryl Clute: What I want to say, Michelle is a lot of the documents now that they’ve gotten in the LDS church. I’m just thankful that payment and Richard Price has done so much research and got documents, you know, and references in their books because who knows what’s gonna happen to some of those documents that, that tell things, you know, that they don’t want people to know. You know what I mean?

[28:38] Michelle: I am so thankful for the Joseph Smith Papers project and the greater transparency. I wish that we had full trust in it. I wish that there wasn’t the concern about some things disappearing or being changed or misfiled. That seems to be an ongoing, you know, I, I guess I just always want to make my plea to the Joseph Smith papers, historians and the church leaders overseeing that to please earn our trust. Don’t let things disappear or be taken away, put everything up. Yes. And I agree with you. I’m glad that there is the record that the prices have done. Go ahead, Dan.

[29:10] Dan Clute: Well, I think this is a good time to share a testimony that I think everyone will appreciate hearing. And this man’s name is JC Clapp and I’m gonna read you a little something here because of the spirit of persecution. My parents moved to Missouri and settled at far West. Where on August 24 1837 I made my first appearance. So he’s born 1837. Uh This just goes to show you how the Lord. Uh he sees everything, he sees everything and he provides for everything. Uh When I was a child, I was blessed by the prophet Joseph Smith. Could you imagine having your baby blessing by the prophet justice? The prophet placed his own name and the name of his brother Carlos upon me, Joseph Carlos clap. Ok? And made a prophecy to the effect that I shall preach the gospel. The language was that I should bear the gospel banner and even upon the islands of the sea, I should lift up the standard of truth. Ok. Now keep that in mind, divine healing. Dr Peacock of San Bernardino pronounced me suffering from dropsy of the heart. After he made a thorough diagnosis of my case, he said he could do nothing for me. Brother Alexander H Smith and William Anderson. I, he must have been in the organization at this time by this time. Brother Alexander H Smith and William Anderson came and administered to me and I got better. But when they left, I relapsed into the same condition, I got so much worse that everyone despaired of my recovery. Dr Peacock said I could live only a few days at most. I also felt that life was fast ebbing away. My heart seemed to be drowning in flood and it was struggling very hard. I told mother that I thought the end was coming. I said that I was not afraid. Only I regretted very much that my life had been so wasted. I saw my mother and sister nanny, a girl about 14 years of age, standing with streaming eyes all at once. Nanny stepped up to our mother and said, mother in the name of the Lord be comforted for Joseph is not going to die. At this time. She then turned to me and delivered one of the most soul piercing prophecies I had ever heard in my life. 14 year old girl here she said quote verily thus saith the Lord. Thy sickness is not unto death for I have a work for thee to do. Remember his baby blessing, preach the gospel, a mission for thee to perform thy voice shall be heard in the congregation of the wicked and upon the islands of the sea. Thou shalt lift up the standard of truth. Tens of thousands shall hear thy testimony and thousands shall be made glad because of thy ministry. The words from a bashful little girl were so powerful that it seemed the very foundations of the house trembled. Wow!

[32:55] Michelle: Ok.

[32:55] Dan Clute: So we’re gonna talk about him here in a little bit. So you got a little, a little background

[33:00] Cheryl Clute: there. But I wanna, I wanna share something before I go into Mark Fort. So about 15 years ago I was talking to my aunt on the phone and uh she knew we were R LDS. She’s 90 right now. She’s still alive. My uncle’s gone, but she’s still alive. And we were talking on the phone and she just out of the clear blue. She says you’re R LDS, right? And I said, yes, she goes. Have you ever heard of the name Heber C Kimball? And I’m like, uh, yeah, he was a man in the early church and, and he went, you know, West with Brigham Young. She goes, yes, I know that. And, and I said, why do you ask? She says, well, I’m the great, great granddaughter of Hebrew C Kimball by uh one of his polygamous wives. And my great grandfather was the son of Hebrew C. And he, when he was 18 years old, he escaped and left Utah and he went all the way to North Georgia and settled there and he got a job and worked until he saved up enough money to get a lawyer. And he changed his name from Kimball to Kim Brell Kimbrell because he did not want anybody to know that he was related to Hebrew C Kimball in any way. And he joined the Baptist church and all of her family to this day had been Baptist because he didn’t want anybody to know that he was the great. You know, that, you know, he was the son of Hebrew c, because what he had experienced growing up in his polygamous family was so horrible. He didn’t want any of his Children to ever be raised in that. That’s what she told me.

[35:01] Michelle: Yeah, that’s so interesting. Ok.

[35:04] Cheryl Clute: So it must have been pretty bad.

[35:07] Michelle: Well, I know we do have a variety of stories and people that want to defend it, there were people who had it less bad than others, shall we say? Right? But we shouldn’t ignore the stories just because they don’t go out with our narrative. I’m I’m talking to my fellow church members just because stories don’t go with our narrative or because we haven’t heard them repeatedly. Our entire lives doesn’t mean they aren’t valid and don’t need to be considered. So these stories, this woman’s family heritage that you just shared is as valid as any of the rest of our family heritage stories that we’ve, that have been passed down. And so it is, it is important to

[35:43] Cheryl Clute: Michelle. I was totally shocked when she shared that with me because I had never heard of that. You know, she never shared it with my mom or anything up to that point. But also she just wanted to tell,

[35:56] Michelle: I’m just, I want to back up to this last topic. So I’m just having some thoughts that are so interesting to me in many ways, the LDS church in my view and some people push back on me on this. But in my view, it’s kind of been in a pattern of repentance in many ways. Since the early founding, we stopped the blood atonement, we stopped the polygamy, we stopped the racism we, you know, and, and, and the temple recently has been adjusted again and again to get us further away from some of those negative elements. I find that interesting. And at the same time, the R LDS church, when in which, in many ways, with Joseph, the Third’s and Emma’s heritage and Joseph, the third stewardship seemed to be more right, more in line with much of what Joseph Smith did and taught. And then they seem to have kind of gone the other direction when they, you know, started to go away from the book of Mormon, away from the testimony of Joseph Smith into these things. And, and I anyway, I just that to be interesting that here we’re in this situation where you guys talked about last time how the seeds of what has happened now with the um community of Christ selling all the properties were really sown when they liberalized and, and your congregation, Cheryl and others that were the congregations that paid all of the tithing left. And that set up the situation now to where it’s gotten to the point where they financially can’t even afford the basics of what they do. And the LDS church that’s been a little bit more on a repentant process. I can’t say that we’ve gotten there. But do you know what I mean? We’re going kind of different directions to where now? It seems the LDS Church is the steward of these properties. Does that make sense to you? Like, I

[37:41] Cheryl Clute: think God’s God’s done this. He took him away from, you know, that they were gonna take care of it

[37:51] Michelle: and you made such a good point in our last conversation. And then we will get go back into the um the stories of, I mean, we could call this episode escape from Utah or something like that. But so we’ll get back into that. But the other point you made in our last conversation that I wanted to bring up again because I thought it was so good is that I, when I grew up and first heard about the Temple Lot Church, I was like, what a silly church a church exists just to be the temple lot church. But you, you know what I mean? And I didn’t know much about it. That was just my first thought. But I loved your insight. Last time that you felt like they had an extremely important role, which was to preserve that spot because of the R LDS church. Even though they won the legal case, the Temple Lot case, the judge decided in favor of the R LDS church regarding Joseph’s polygamy. But because of squatter’s rights, the um temple lot church was able to maintain, retain that property, which prevented the R LDS church from building the temple. And so that temple spot has been preserved because decades later, the R LDS church would in different ways that I guess the community of Christ now, but the R LDS church at your time betrayed their heritage. And so it’s good. They don’t have a temple there anyway, I just see God’s hand working in such fascinating ways through all of this that I agree. OK. Let’s go down the path of early Utah.

[39:17] Cheryl Clute: OK. Let’s go. Let’s go down the path. I put my glasses on. So I,

[39:23] Michelle: OK, while you get your glasses on, I will say when I was growing up, I thought and, and when I started, when I was a young homeschooling mom, I really thought early Utah was the righteous place and we are trying to be as righteous as those pioneer saints that were trying to get back there. And as I studied more and more and found out it was a theocratic nightmare. It was a horror show. It, it was bad, bad, bad news. So that’s what Cheryl and Dan are gonna help us understand a little bit more about

[39:52] Dan Clute: Michelle this real quick. It, which I’m not gonna look at Charles Dry’s reasons for leaving Utah. It’s about a four page document. He uses the word of oppression 12 different times.

[40:07] Cheryl Clute: OK? I sent you those references. If you want to look it up on the internet.

[40:12] Michelle: Yeah, we will have Cheryl has sent me several links that will be below where you can get sources that are available online. Also will have the links to the different books that you guys utilize and additional reading you suggest from the restoration bookstore or other places that we can get them. So please check the list, the links below because this is a fascinating part of our history that we need to understand. Ok.

[40:34] Cheryl Clute: So today Danny and I are gonna talk on John Brush. Danny’s gonna do him and then JC Clap and then I’m gonna do Mark Forst right now. Uh and Charles Dry and Mark Forst, even though they both went to Utah, they ended up both escaping and later on came into the organization and they were traveling companions, going out doing missionary work. So Mark Forst, he was born in England and uh he was the son of Robert and Amy Forst. They were a very religious family. At 17. Mark went off to Cambridge College University and um one night, some of his uh friends from college said, hey, there’s some Mormons down the street. Uh they’re gonna preach tonight. Let’s go down here and, and harass them is what they were gonna do. Well, Mark goes and he ended up filling the spirit because Danny and I, and our research we’ve been doing here lately. The one thing that we’ve noticed over and over and over is that Brigham Young had told all the men that were going to, to England or Scandinavia or whatever countries they were that when you go, you preach the gospel and then once they’re converted, you tell them they need to gather to Zion, meaning Utah. And once they get here, we’ll tell them the rest. So Mark under that, he heard the gospel. He knew by the Holy Spirit that it was true. So he ends up joining the, the LDS church, you know, over in England. And uh his parents, especially his father disowned him, totally disowned him. Well, he, during so he moved out from his parents’ house and, and so forth. And then he met a young lady, her name was Eli Elizabeth Unsworth. They ended up getting married in uh March of 1860. And from there, uh they, they went to the United States. She ended up joining the church as well and they got to Florence Nebraska and when they got there, I’m just gonna read what he says here. Brother Holt came over from Omaha and asked if there were any saints from Bolton there. My mother and a friend were, he said, well, well, girls, I preached Mormonism in Bolton for many years. And now I’ll tell you what it is in Utah. He and his wife did so the girls knowing his integrity believed and would have gone no farther. But father could not be convinced. He thought brother Holt a disgruntled old man. So this brother Holt was warning them what really that he had been in Utah and had left. Mother said, what was a bride to do? Except to obey her husband. As soon as an escort of wagons came, they started on the long road to Salt Lake, pushing and pushing and pulling hand carts. They made it to Salt Lake City on August 27th, 1860. Shortly after arriving there, father was made secretary to Brigham Young. It did not take him long to see that brother Holt was correct in his diagnosis of affairs in Utah, except they were worse than he had painted before long. The leaders tried to have mark with another woman and even picked out the lady for him. He came home and said, Elizabeth, you alone can save me how she said by asking some, by asking some demand that I cannot perform and sticking to it. They say a man has to have his first wife’s consent and I’ll hold him to that. All right. She said, you tell Brigham that when you furnish me a home in one year’s provisions, you can marry whom you please father went to the office and told Brigham what she had said. Brigham sent two of his apostles to remonstrate with her. And when they failed, he visited her himself. Brigham went to the house, he talked and talked and at last he asked if she did not want celestial glory for herself. And Mark, here’s listen to this, I love this. I would have loved to met this woman. So Elizabeth says to Brigham right to his face. I’m not worrying about any kind of glory. She replied, but I want a home and provisions for a year. Then Mark can do as he pleases. We will build you a house said Brigham, but you know we can’t provide provisions for a year. Well, I’ve given you my to m him. So there is no use talking. I would love to met her. Began young, went back to the office quite angry and told father that he should marry anyhow. But father told him that he could not do so without her consent. About six months after arriving there, they both left the Utah Mormon church and soon joined the mic sites and made their headquarters in Weber where Mark taught school in the fall of 1861. A call was issued for the male residents of South Weber to appear at Kingston Fort to enroll and drill. I guess Brigham had started some kind of an army. Uh The day of training came and not a moor site mustard. Instead they repaired to the bowery. So uh they’re in this church and uh his wife, she stopped by a chair and leaned on it looking for Father John Cook came in carrying a three legged stool, motioned for her to come and sit on it. She went over and as she sat down, a cannonball came in, killed the woman on whose chair she had been leaning, killed another and shot through the jaw of a girl. Joseph Morris and John Banks were also killed. At this time, Mr R Cook advised them go quietly to your homes and le let each man defend his own family as best he can. So they go, they go and they, they’re hiding in the cellars or, or in their home. And, and it’s, and Elizabeth is really concerned if Mark is dead or alive and she was told that he was taken prisoner, but that, that really wasn’t it. Um So it says uh in the meantime, Mark became an apostle in the Moorside church and he had taken the records and made his way stealthy to Elizabeth’s brother’s home, which was just a short distance from the camp. He got back to the camp shortly after dark and found his loved ones safe in uh October of 1862 Colonel Connor and the Californian volunteers came into Utah. Father joined them and became the private secretary for Colonel Connor. Father joined the organized church while in Salt Lake City. And as, and as long as he stayed there, meaning in uh camp Douglas, uh he was never worried at all. But

[48:04] Michelle: then can I fill in really quickly? Because I was wondering what year this was? And when you’re talking about the Morro sites and that bomb, I mean, that cannon, which I’ve never heard about that. And if anyone is curious about it because it’s always good to be able to validate these sources, sources. Go ahead and look up the Morris site war and you will get a lot more information on this. There was, you can find a Wikipedia article and a lot more information about the Morris site war that validates this, this, um, history that Cheryl is reading. So I just wanted to throw that in there that even if you haven’t heard of it, look it up because that’s verification. Ok. Continue.

[48:41] Cheryl Clute: So, um as long as, as Mark was in the army there in uh Utah and uh he was fine but in September of 1866 he was, he was discharged and um then he’s, you know, they’re back out on their own now. And uh so what on a Monday, August 31st, 1866 mother went to get her scrub brush and found it laid upon the kitchen window, upon taking it up. She discovered a paper which had gone, sorry, which had one gun printed on one side and a pistol on the other. Each with bullets pouring out written in red ink were the, were these words, Mark H forst if not out of this territory within one week, thou shalt die, the death of a miserable apostate dog. Elizabeth came in so worried, but Mark ridiculed the idea that night Elizabeth dreamed the same dream twice. That Mark came into the room shot the next morning, she urged him to leave. She told him she would get the money that he must go or she would go wild. So she sold a bunch of stuff so she could get the money. Well, Mark goes down, he decides, ok, I’m gonna do it. So he goes down to get a ticket to get out of there on the stage coach or, yeah, I guess it was stage coach. He goes down there and he gets a ticket and the only ticket that supposedly was available was for on a Monday morning. Well, he had made a friend of an army officer in the camp and this army officer happened to mention to him, you know, I’m leaving on Friday, I got a ticket for Friday to get out, you know, to I’m going somewhere. And so Elizabeth asked him, would you mind switching tickets with Mark? Because if he waits till Monday, they’re gonna kill him. And so the officer said, ok, I’ll, I’m not no big hurry, I’ll, I’ll do that. So they exchanged stage coach tickets. So Mark actually left on Friday and they left, they left and there was no problem at all. He got, Mark, got out of there, left his wife and kids still in Utah. Uh, but he got on the stage coach and he went on back to N Nebraska

[51:08] Michelle: and then terrified him to leave his family there. Like

[51:12] Cheryl Clute: he took his wife, Elizabeth said that she had the assurance from God that the Children and her would be safe and that as soon as possible she would get would be there following and which that’s what happened. So anyway, he gets on the stage coach and he gets out of there. That was on Friday. Well, then on Monday, now the army guy is on the stage coach that Mark would have been on. So he’s, they’re going down the road, they get about three miles out of, out of Utah, out of Salt Lake. And the next thing, you know, avenging angels show up and stop the stage coach. And they say, I want everybody off. This was it, this was in the evening time, it was dark and they had lanterns. They said we want everybody off the stage coach and they made everybody get off. They took the lanterns, held them up the lantern to each person that got off his face. And the head guy turned around to the rest of the avenging angels and said he’s not on the stage coach. Everybody get back on the stage coach and, and uh, leave because, you know, you can leave because he’s not on here, he’d already gone. Thank goodness that army guy switched tickets with him or he would have been killed. And so, um, anyway, and not very long after that, then his wife Elizabeth and their kids. They, they ended up going on to Nebraska and he ended up becoming a missionary in the uh R LDS church along with Charles Derry. But uh this other one that I’m going to share, uh talks about a family that was also in Weber, Weber and Mark Forst was their children’s school teacher there. He taught school there. So, but anyway, that’s, that’s the avenging angels. They were gonna kill him on that Monday and in the, in the whole transcript and, and if anybody wants to just go to the links that I sent Michelle and you can go to Latter day truth.org and their whole, his whole diary is on here. It’s several pages long. You can either read it on there or printed it out like I did. But, um, um, I just, you know, I wanted to condense it down because it’s really long. But anyway, so God, God’s spirit is life because of the dreams that his wife had to get out now. Or, or you would be dead on Monday. And it even says in the, in the big transcript that, um, they knew the way they, the way they knew it is. At that time, the stage coach company was owned by Brigham and all them in the church.

[53:46] Michelle: Oh, wow. So they

[53:48] Cheryl Clute: knew that they did, they wouldn’t sell him a ticket for any other day. They wanted him to be on that Monday stage coach. So they could kill him.

[53:57] Michelle: Wow! Ok. And this is, this was after um mountain meadows. So this was not like, like it wasn’t like mountain meadows, scared them into repentance about these doctrines and these teachings, it was a continuing pattern that was still happening. That’s incredible. And I, I’m not noticing an interesting pattern that seems to be maybe consistent throughout these stories. You’re going to tell us. It seems that the LDS church, the Brigham might um Utah based church was more successful at sending missionaries abroad. And so a lot of people, they would go abroad, convert people to the gospel, not telling them like we, we know that John Taylor went and read section 101 in the original Doctrine and covenants to, to say no, we’re not living polygamy when they were told after 1852 right? So then the people would convert, come to Utah realize the horror show it was and then eventually find the R LDS church, right? Because that was the restoration. They had been converted to that, that had, that shared that gospel, at least much of that gospel, but didn’t have the same awful practices. Is that, does that seem to be what happens consistently? You’re way

[55:10] Dan Clute: ahead of me, you’re way ahead of me. OK. Oh, wait, I’m gonna read you

[55:16] Cheryl Clute: what you’re saying. I told Danny that uh so I can just make this statement one time that almost all the accounts that we’re gonna share that people ended up coming into the organization, but there were a few that I’ve read that they were so tired of it and what they’ve been through because they’ve been through Far West and Nauvoo and they were done and once they escaped Utah they were done. So the majority of them went with the organization.

[55:46] Michelle: Ok. Ok. And I can sympathize with that. I mean, not an easy time to live in this restored gospel that then turned into this nightmare. Yeah,

[55:56] Cheryl Clute: you need to scoot over

[55:59] Dan Clute: at the end of the reasons for leaving Utah. Uh Charles Derry says this thousands that have left Utah when they see this will remember a great number of evils practiced that are not recorded here. But I think enough is written to show that oppression is their modus operandi and ambition, power and lust, the objects at which they aim.

[56:28] Michelle: Ok. Wow. He

[56:30] Dan Clute: says thousands can testify to what what he has said. But like I said, you’re, you’re, you’re way

[56:37] Michelle: ahead of me, Dan, can you, can you scoot a little closer to Cheryl? Don’t be shy

[56:44] Dan Clute: because I’m looking at the screen over

[56:46] Michelle: here. OK. OK. You go ahead. That’s why I’m

[56:47] Dan Clute: getting over here. But uh anyway, the title of this document, it goes along with what you just said. Doctrines and Dogmas of Briga are unlike the doctrine that was taught and accepted by the church from 1830 to 1844. OK. Now I’m gonna quote. This is from journal Discourses volume six page 279. It’s Brigham Young August 29th, 1852. When the elders, this is the quote when the elders first commenced preaching Mormonism 20 years ago, they would take the Bible and prove every item of doctrine to the people beyond doubt and controversy. OK. That’s the way it should be. OK. When I this is uh John Taylor, it’s in general discourses volume 15 page 286 and 287 January 1218 73 John Taylor, when I and my brethren have gone out to preach the gospel. We have told the people precisely the same things as were taught in former times by the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Now remember what you just said M Michelle, what is it that has brought you latter day saints here? Meaning to Utah. It is the principles of the gospel. You heard them perhaps in England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, France, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Germany, or some other parts of the earth, no matter where you heard them, when you did hear you believed them. OK. So they’re teaching the principles of Doctrine of Christ. Now, this is uh Jedediah M Grant again from Journal Discourses volume two page 2 31 2 32 December 1718 54. Well, though we are an angel from heaven preach any other gospel, let him be accursed no matter how near men may preach the gospel. They must must preach the same gospel, every part of it, every ordinance of it, every principle Jesus Christ revealed. And his apostles taught, if they do not, they teach another gospel and if they teach another says, the apostles apostle, let them be accursed. The gospel preached by Joseph Smith is the same that is contained in the New Testament and which was preached by Jesus Christ and his apostles. And it is the power of God to everyone that believes. So it will be evident that there was a change in thinking from what was stated above. This is drug discourse volume one page 78 Brigham Young. And I I’ll send you this document if, if we haven’t already sent it, so you’ll, you’ll have it. Uh Brigham Young September 11th 1853. This is a quote Brigham Young, if I have any knowledge, touching the condition of this people at the present time and the way they are taught, led counseled and dictated by those who go before them to open up the way it is directly opposite of that we saw in the days of Joseph, the prophet directly

[1:00:03] Michelle: opposite. Wow, I

[1:00:05] Dan Clute: grew up here by Jedi Grant that the gospel preached by Joseph Smith is the same that’s contained in the New Testament, which was preached by Jesus and his apostles. That’s what was Joseph was like. It is directly opposite of that we saw in the days of the prophet Joseph. So like you said people being converted all over the world by the preaching of the gospel, then they come to Utah and what they’re being taught according to Brigham Young is directly opposite of that we saw in the days of Joseph, the prophet. OK. This is, yeah, this is discourse is volume 14 page 277 Brigham Young July 3rd 1870. Now to the latter day saints, I will say that when you receive the gospel in foreign lands, you receive no more in comparison than a child receives at school. When he learns his first lesson, which must have been the gospel that he’s talking about the principles of the gospel. If he masters the alphabet, he thinks he is progressing fine. If the saints receive the alphabet abroad, they’re doing well. When they come here, they have more to learn. Ok.

[1:01:19] Michelle: Ok. Yeah. Can I, can I finish that? That I was so curious about that directly opposite quote that I hadn’t looked it up. I just want to read the sentence after that if that’s ok while you’re looking up your next one. If I have any knowledge, touching the condition of this people at the present time and the way they are taught, led, counseled and dictated by those who go before them to open the way it is directly opposite of that we saw in the days of Joseph, the prophet. He was full of sorrow, trouble, poverty and distress. But now the people are led into riches by the example, Council advice and dictations of their leaders. They are on the highway to wealth. Wow, that’s a, I hadn’t, I hadn’t read that one yet. Ok. Continue on with the next one. Thanks for, let me add to that.

[1:01:59] Dan Clute: Uh George Albert Smith. This is uh journal Discourses. Volume two, page 2, 18 and 220. Uh March 1818 55. I tell you we’re in the middle of a big turnpike. And if we continue in the keys of Exaltation, uh are with us and the great work of God will unfold to this people. Things that have been hid from the foundation of the world. So now you know, things that have been hid, the Lord in his mercy to us has given us a great prophet and wise rule ruler in Israel. I’m assuming he’s referring to Brigham Young that we may exert our powers, influence and wisdom under his direction to prepare for the revelation of the law of Exaltation, which has been so long promised. So here’s something new uh coming. Um Let’s see. Now, now we’re getting beginning. S some people that have come to Utah are beginning, like I say, they’ve taught the gospel out there, they come to Utah and now that we’re starting to get some complaints. Uh This is Journal Discourses volume two page 332. George Albert Smith, June 24 1855. We sometimes see men make their appearance among us. And after a short stay, they will say quote, why I believe I will go off to some place and wait till Ancient Mormonism comes around again. For this is not Ancient Mormonism. These are not the, the original doctrines that were preached. OK. Starting again. This is her Heber C. Kimball. Uh General discourse is volume four, page 173. It’s January 11th, 1857. There are a great many old men who have the priesthood upon them who have been in the church from the beginning and yet they are spiritually dead. What is the matter? I can expose them? I can tell you just what ails them and why they’re spiritually dead. They do not wake up and cannot wake up because they, you do not consider that they are guilty of anything wrong. They cannot see themselves. But when you come to find out, you will find that they have from the death of Joseph. And before he was slain, murmured and complained at Brigham and Hebrew saying that quote, Mormonism is not as it was. Then we knew and understood Mormonism when Joseph was alive, but we do not know the tree now. It has grown so fast. One more maybe journal discourses. Volume five page 307 A mass in Lima in October 11th, 1857 apostates are found as we pass through the country and they will say, quote, I knew the work to be true 20 years ago when you brother Lyman and, or someone else came through our section of country and preached the gospel. See, preach the gospel. I knew that it was true. Then, then why did you apostatize and leave the church? Have you found out that it was false quote? Well, I do not know that I have but it was that Mormonism that was preached 20 years ago that I knew. So you, so you kind of get the idea. And then this is uh Joseph Smith. I feel that I’ve spoken the truth to you. I asked you to receive it in good and honest hearts. It is found in the books. I assume he’s talking about the Bible Book of Moment doctrine, covenants, but the books are the dead letter. It is the living oracles that have the right to organize and direct to counsel and exhort and Monish and repr prove. This is Joseph F Smith. Uh This journal of discourse is also uh 93 page 197 Hebrew CD, Kbe, January 27th, 1856. I would not care if there was a Bible within 10,000 miles of this place or any other book of script. Here are the oracles living right in our midst and we receive them from day to day by word of mouth from a living man. I’m assuming Brigham Young, an apostle who is alive and through a priesthood which is living in our midst Joseph in his lifetime did not receive everything connected with the doctrine of redemption. But he has left the key with those who understand how to obtain and teach to this great people. All that is necessary for their salvation and exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God. I have shown other brethren and sisters that brother Joseph did not tell them all things at once. Consequently, you may expect to hear and see many things you never thought of before. Brigham Young. This is in Times and Seasons volume six, page 955.

[1:06:37] Michelle: That was 1845 right? Is that the 1845 sermon? We’ll leave them all below

[1:06:42] Dan Clute: just as Brigham Young Times and Seasons volume five page 666 and 667. I’ve known that Brother Mars had no evidence but the written word. But if these people have no evidence but the written word, it is quite time to go to the river and be baptized for the remission of their sins as to a person not knowing more than the written word. Let me tell you that there are keys that the written word never spoke of the written word, meaning scriptures, nor never will. We can see that the saints after being converted by the preaching of the gospel. And then they get in one of these accounts somewhere. It said we never heard a gospel sermon once we got out there. So I’ll, I’ll, I’ll send you this uh document. But from there and that supports what you said, that literally supports what you said. This is another clap. And there’s a lot of good history before this because a lot of some of them went through uh being expelled from Missouri. And you know, Adam on the Ammon and Far West. And then Nauvoo, there’s some good history in the beginning of some of these that we’re not gonna get into. But he says we were expelled from Nauvoo in 1846. Our destination was supposed to be upper California while traveling through the Iowa territory on a westward journey. We used to sing quote on the road to California and quote in upper California. That’s the land for me. So Rick, they were intending to go to California. We never thought of Salt Lake until the pioneers discovered the Salt Lake Valley. At that time, it belonged to Mexico and Brigham Young decided to locate the church there and build up an empire of his own. And that’s basically what happened at the time of our exodus from Nauvoo Iowa was Indian territory and very sparsely settled. We saw in Count Council Bluff, then called Keysville and also settle Florence then called winter quarters, which is on the west side of the river in Nebraska. While we were located in this new country, the church that portion of it willing to follow. Brigham Young was reorganized. Brigham Young was made the president and declared the successor of the martyred prophet. I remember the effect upon many, especially my father who claimed that the church was or would be rejected because they had contrary to the law made Brigham Young President without any revelation from God from that time and, and in reading another place of uh Grigg said it was the choice of the people and that’s sufficient. Yeah. Uh I don’t have that quote right here. But anyway, from that time until the day father left Utah, he was never satisfied with the order of things. Then established. My father having been in an adventurous disposition, went about 40 miles up the river, settle on the Iowa side in the large bend of the river, what you call Nettle Bend. And he imposed kind of 1000 acres. He says of fertile land, the country abounded in game wild fruit honey. If we had possessed sense enough to have stayed there, it would have been much better for us both temporally and spiritually. And he was talking about it, we wouldn’t have went on to. But anyway, but since the saints were starting for the West again, we were swallowed up in a general desire to go with the church. We did not start till spring of 1850. I was then only 12 years old but I drove a team of four yoka boxing from council bluffs to Salt Lake City. Over 1000 miles, a large train uh made traveling slow and we were caught in the snowstorms of the mountains. This caused much suffering among the people, especially since quite a number of them were very poor and ill prepared for such a journey. Much less for the severe winter cholera and mountain fever made heavy demands upon us and we left many little unmarked mounds as the resting places of loved ones. We’ve, we’ve, some of these saints made great sacrifices when they was coming from Europe, Sheryl’s, uh, reading something the other day that they’re on a, on a ship, you know, a boat bringing them over and a couple of their maybe she’s gonna tell this. Are you? Yeah. Ok. I’ll let her tell it then I was just, well, I don’t want to get a still in mine. I’m still in her thunder here. Ok. But anyway, we finally reached the quote promised land, Salt Lake Valley where we were assured that our new Zion in our new Zion, we would be free from gentile interference and where mobs could never molest or make us afraid. So now the Experiences in Utah is the title. As early as the fall of 1850 Brigham Young began to encourage the idea of temple building. He called for volunteers to haul rock from red. I’m not sure if it’s Butte Canyon Canyon or Red Butte Canyon. Ok. Uh, to build the temple. This canyon was five or six miles east of the city and workers could easily make a load in a day. My father, I was ready to help and work of that kind. Remember doing this for the temple, put together two teams to haul rock. A number of other brother did of the same without payment. Of course, I suffered considerably as it fell to my lot to drive a team. The weather was cold and we were very poorly clad, but we were hauling rock to Bill, quote the house of the Lord. And we drew considerable comfort from that. This rock hauling was the first eye opener. My father got in Utah, despite his dissatisfaction with Brigham’s seizing authority. Father was still zealous in supporting the church to a very great degree. He was greatly surprised when Brigham made the announcement that the rock was not suitable for the temple but said the leader, we have not lost anything for. We need a place where we can have fun and kick up our heels all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. So the Wily Chief took the route that was hall for the temple and built the Salt Lake Theater when it was completed. It belonged to Brigham Mhm Right. The next eye opener on temple building was a call for all the faithful to dig a canal from Big Cottonwood Canyon to Salt Lake City to move rock down from the mouth of the canyon. Every word was called out and a portion of the canal was assigned to each ward. My brother William and I each worked 53 days on the canal. Although the work was hard and the weather cold, we were happy in the thought that we were to have AAA quote name in the house of the Lord. Imagine our surprise after we’ve got a good stream of water running in the canal to receive word from headquarters that it would not be practicable to run rock down the canal to the city. But again said, the chief, we have lost nothing for, we need the water. They abandoned that project, but they did not abandon the canal. It was useful to irrigate Brigham’s big farm and turn the water mill just south of the city. My father got a land grant for Big Cottonwood Canyon. This is a good one here which at the time was considered Impenetrable on account of rattlesnakes and the granite rock that almost shut up the canyon for about a quarter of a mile. Father was an enterprising man and not fearing the rattlesnakes or the granite rock he preserved, he persevered and made the road. We killed thousands of snakes in the process. Rattlesnakes after we had exhausted our means and opened up the way to the per to perhaps the first body of timber in that territory. Brigham came to my father and began to flatter him. He said, quote, brother, brother Benjamin, you are one of the most thorough men in this territory. If I had 1000 men like you. Nothing could keep me out of the presidential chair of these United States. Boy, he was laying it on thick, wasn’t he? There is not another man in the territory who could have done what you have done. Brother Clap. Now we now it’s we, now it’s we brother Clap. We have got to have that timber out of that canyon as you have not the means to get it out. I propose to take this thing off your hands and let you rest this. He did and made millions out of it.

[1:15:45] Michelle: Wow, selling the timber that ok.

[1:15:50] Dan Clute: But brother Benjamin said, Brigham, I tell you in the name of the Lord that you shall in no wise lose your reward. Ok? On account of seeing so much hypocrisy during the reformation in Utah, my brother William and I would not be rebaptized. Of course, we were looked upon as rebellious apostates that no doubt was the cause of much that I suffered in later years. In the spring of 1856 I made up my mind to fulfill a covenant that I made with my mother. My father at this time was living with his second wife. Great. I had seen mother’s tears scald cheeks and heard her sobs until I thought I could be burned alive. If it would be any of service to her. I told her that if I ever got big enough, I would take care of her and never forsake her. As long as we both lived one morning, early in April, I resolved to throw off the yoke. I knew it was a desperate undertaking for my father was an austere man and, and a born ruler. I summoned all the courage I could and prayed for strength that I might not falter for, for. I knew that the time had come for a change. I went trembling trembly to my father or rather he became, came to me and began to list work for me to do. I looked him in the face and said, father, you will have to get someone else to do that for after this, I’m going to work for my mother.

[1:17:25] Michelle: Wow, I love this guy. OK. I love that kid.

[1:17:31] Dan Clute: OK. Prior to this time, I never even said I did not want to do what he told me to do. At this time, my oldest brother was in California and the next brother in Mexico. I was at home and I took upon me the responsibility of maintaining my mother and raising the other Children, four girls and one boy. My father did not seriously object and I felt much relieved after getting a divorce for my mother. I located her in the 14th ward and made arrangements to go to California, William Smith, who claimed to be a relative of the family was going to take 1000 head of cattle to California. The cattle were called quote, church cattle were branded by, he went in on his cattle drive to California basically to get out of Utah. Excuse to get out. And anyway, the guy that was running it ended up not paying anything. Uh yeah, hiring on with Smith had been my scheme to get out of Utah and take my mother and her Children away from there. I found so it gets back to Utah. I found mother. Well, only in a little trouble with the ward officials of the church. I had written that I was coming to take the family away. The family had told of it. That was the mistake and they were looked upon as apostates. I of course was branded on account of leaving the train that I left salt lake with and we were in a bad position. However, I was warned by some of the members of the church to flee from the city or I would be killed. An old lady who had been a neighbor to us in Nauvoo came to me and warned me to flee for my life. She had heard her husband and two others of the brethren planning to put me out of the way. I do not know that the lady told the truth but subsequent events confirmed what she had said. It was not long after this, that my father came to camp Floyd. He had gotten into difficulty with some of the officials in southern Utah. And that attempt had been made to blood at, to him. My father had been in the mission field nearly all his life and knew little of the dark deeds done at home. It was a policy of the leader to keep such men away as much as possible. When he came home and saw the condition of things, he was appalled and said altogether too much for his safety. He said too much. So you had to be careful of how you spoke. Uh If you were gonna leave or anything negative about the leadership, uh your life was in danger. Uh Anyway, I think that’s some of the highlights there. So I’ll let Cheryl that there’s a couple more things about the destroying angels trying to get them. But I’ll let Cheryl go ahead and do it. We got a long way to go.

[1:20:24] Michelle: Wow, these are amazing stories.

[1:20:27] Cheryl Clute: Well, the next one that I’m gonna do, it’s a book but it’s, it was from the diaries. Uh This lady here, her name is Iris Griffiths. She’s the one that took her grandparents diaries and wrote the book called The Vindicator. This book is out of print, but I gave Michelle the reference. You can probably get this through Paul Lady Paul Ludy. Anyway, that’s where I, this is my original, but I bought a few extra copies and gave them to some of my LDS friends. So I know he does have some, it’s an excellent book, but I’m not gonna read the whole thing. I’m just gonna hit the highlights. So the couple that I’m gonna talk about John and Mary, this is them right here.

[1:21:08] Michelle: Ok. That’s

[1:21:09] Cheryl Clute: great. Ok, John Griffiths, this Mary was his second wife, John Griffith and his wife Dorothy came from Wells. They’d heard the gospel in wells and they decided that they were going to go to Utah to be in Zion. Uh Dorothy was ill before they left Wales, but they didn’t really realize how bad she really was and she gets on the ship and on the voyage, um she uh ended up dying from consumption and lung hemorrhage and had to be buried at sea. Well, John, he was just totally devastated and there was a, a family on that same boat and their last name was Thomas and they were not, they had no intentions of going with the Mormons or anything. They were just coming to America to start a new life. And um this Mr Thomas, he had a daughter named Mary who was 24 years old and his son, Tommy and his a daughter, Hannah and also Sally James and her sister Las Sitia. Uh Sally had cared for Mr Thomas’s wife before she died. So Thomas brought them with her to start a new life in America here. You’ve got John losing his wife on the boat and had to be buried at sea and then they, the ship they’re on gets caught in a hurricane and they thought it was gonna go down too. But, I mean, these people that came from the British Isles and Scandinavian stuff, they really, really went through so much. I just can’t believe it anyway. They, they ended up, they landed in New Orleans and then they took a boat at the Mississippi River and the Thomas family was on the same boat. Well, when they got up to Saint Louis, Thomas family got off. But in the meantime, on the boat, uh now that John’s wife had died, he was just so heartbreaking, broken, his heart was broken and he decided um you know that he just was beside himself. He didn’t know what. But this Mary that was 24 this Mary Thomas, she tried to comfort him and everything during this time. And so they ended up falling in love on the boat. And so uh when Mary got off the boat with her dad and, and the rest of her family in Saint Louis, he was really devastated because he went on up the Missouri river and on up to Council Bluffs and up that way because he was gonna go on the, on a wagon train uh out to Utah. Well, anyway, what happened was was Mary ended up um her and her brother, they ended up somehow talking to her dad and they got to go to Utah later on Mr Thomas came out too. But uh so Mary ended up joining the church. Well, when, when, uh John got out to Utah, he just thought he got off, you know, got off the, the wagon train and Brigham Young was there to greet him and shake their hands and everything, you know, and welcome to Zion and, you know, everything’s rosy, posy here, you know. And, oh, John just thought he was great. And uh, so then not too long after that, um, is when you know, Mary came and, and uh he found her there and they ended up getting married in Salt Lake in 1853. OK. But let me go here, John got called the priesthood. And now that John was in the priesthood, it was hinted that he should take himself a number of lives in order to carry out the patriarch’s prophecy that his posterity be numerous as the sands upon the seashore. Although polygamy had been denied publicly until a few months before. It had frequently been discussed among the church members. And the practice was admitted bef before John by some of the elders. And Brigham Young himself, the reasons for it were supposedly spiritual. On one occasion when John was seeking more information about it, he was instructed to study more deeply, certain chapters of the Bible as well as in the book of Mormon. When he entered a higher order of the church, he would be able to understand the revelations and see that the Mormons were following the ways of Jesus Christ, the Father and the Holy Ghost. He was told John, let it rest there, although he was not satisfied with their answers. So anyway, he didn’t, he wouldn’t take another wife. And so, um he was, they started, you know, seeing that things were not right. Him and Mary started seeing things that were not right in the church and their, the brother Tom, uh he ii I never really saw anything if he joined the church or not. But uh he um was warned John. John was because he worked around a lot of the people in Salt Lake and stuff. A lot of people told him, do not say anything sarcastic. Don’t uh do anything where the hierarchy would maybe uh see that you are gonna be an apostate, you know, don’t say anything. Be careful. Well, Tom Mary’s brother, he was kind of cocky and he was like, OK, he was warned over and over. Do not say anything or, you know, there’s a chance that you’re gonna be killed. And so um

[1:26:55] Michelle: the fact that they know this, the fact that they have to warn each other, you know, that that’s the culture so much. OK.

[1:27:00] Cheryl Clute: Keep going. I don’t know if you’re familiar with this town but they lived in a place called Springville.

[1:27:06] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. Springville is not very far from me.

[1:27:09] Cheryl Clute: OK. So they lived in Springville one day. Uh Tom was sent into Springville uh to get something at a feed store. And while he was there, Tom noticed this beautiful young woman his age, uh, by this time, Tom was, you know, he wasn’t 16 anymore. He was like 20 or so. Anyway, so he, he noticed this girl, a young woman and, um, she was real pretty and he, she looked at him and he looked at her and they smiled and everything and, uh, she was loading up this buckboard of grain, uh, doing all this labor and he was gonna go help her and stuff, you know, and then all of a sudden this old man comes out from the feed store and tells her, you know, hurry up and get done with that and get up on the wagon and all this and that and they took off. Well, they both were kind of, you know, this woman and, um, Tom were kind of attracted to each other and, but he didn’t know who she was. Well, a few days later it was Sunday and they, there was a church service going on there in Springville. And, uh, as Tom, uh, the next Sunday, Tom rode past the church again and spotted the team of team in a wagon that looked familiar. He tied his horse and went in the room was quite full. So we stood in the back and looked for the girl. He had seen unloading the grain. He soon found her. She was looking toward him and he could tell by her expression that she recognized him. Tom smiled and started toward her, but she quickly turned her head and put her hands up to shield her face as though she was afraid her looks might betray her feelings. Tom stepped back and stood at the rear of the church with a group of young men thinking he would seek her out as soon as the meeting was over. Then he noticed that the man, the girl was, the girl had called Jake that day at the warehouse was sitting in the same row with her. There were several other older women seated between them. Tom whispered to one of the young men standing beside him. Could you tell me the name of that girl sitting on the bench to the left of us? He nodded his head in her in her direction. The fellow followed Tom’s gaze and whispered back. She’s no girl. She’s one of old men, Jessop’s wives, that’s him on the other end of the seat. And all those women sitting between them are his wives too. So Jake Jessup was who the old man was. This news made Tom sick with disgust. It aroused in him both pity and hate. It was plain to see the girl was not happy. Tom was disappointed, but the feeling ran deeper than that. He felt as if he had been robbed of something. How was a young man to find himself a wife when all the girls were being sealed in marriage to these old men. These polygamists were getting bolder every day as the meeting got underway, the members came before, became more and more emotional. Tom was about to leave, then decided to stay a while longer and watch what went on. He sat down near the back. Most of the congregation did not participate in the ceiling of wives ceremony. The ones that did went to the altar singing and praying and clapping their hands. Tom kept watching the girl. He made, he had made up his mind that if she gave any indication, she wanted his help, he would give it to her. But when she got up and joined the orgy along with Jake and his other wives, it was more than Tom could stand. He was so wild that he forgot John’s warning and rose up and shouted, why don’t you call it stealing wives instead of stealing wives? Someone in the crowd said, amen. Oh, that’s pretty good. Well, and s who heard Tom’s comment began to laugh. The elder who was performing the rites was furious over the outburst and laughing. He said, well, the party causing the confusion in the back, either get out or keep quiet. Everyone looked to the back of the room. Tom was already starting to leave. He turned at the door and said, I was, I was leaving on my own accord. I despise any organization that lures innocent young women as women astray. He stalked out outside, he mounted his horse and rode quickly away without looking back. Nevertheless, he was aware that three men had come from a back door and had run toward their horses. Tom knew that the men had not left the meeting for the same reason he had suddenly he remembered John Warney against starting any disturbance with the Brighams. He knew the men were following him. So I’m gonna skip forward here on this. So what happened was these three men were avenging angels and they were following him. Well, he knew that part of the country, I guess better than they did. And he was able to get away and hide. And then at some point he, uh, uh ended up going to, um, you know, Mary and John’s house to and hide out for a while and, uh, he was ok for a while. Well, anyway, during that time, John and Mary actually witnessed the wagon train that was going through that ended up killing the people in Mountain Meadow massacre. And as the wagon train, this was a few days before that. But uh, when they saw the, the dust coming off the, the trail, all the people from that area, they, they went down to where the wagon train was and they, they would sell supplies to them like, you know, canned goods or whatever they could do to, to make extra money and, and got to talking with the people and they liked them, you know, they liked a lot of the people that were heading to California on that wagon train and it wasn’t very long after that, that um, they, they’ve got news that that whole wagon train had been killed in Mo Meta massacre. And John knew, he knew John refused. Ok. This was a horrible thing to blame on the Mormons. John refused to believe it at first and he knew there was a secret order in the church organized by the brims to punish the reform those working against them. Its existence was denied, but everyone knew it when this order was first organized, they were called the Danites. Then they became known as the avenging angels. They were violent, brutal men who did not hesitate to follow Brigham Young’s orders. They were led to believe that they were performing a special duty and would be rewarded in the eyes of God. Anyway, John knew that it was them that did this and that Brigham was responsible. He somehow he found out about it. So anyway, um what happened was going on because I this book is pretty thick. Um He ended up this Tom back to Tom. Tom was hiding out at their house and uh they got word that uh the avenging angels were coming looking for him at John Mary’s. And so Tom had to escape and uh he ended up, he got, he, he, he actually was able to get out uh, John and, and Tom were in the house and they had weapons and they were waiting and they knew that these were avenging angels, there was three of them and John actually was able to, he went off, Tom went off with them and actually was able to get away. So they got away. And then, uh, the next thing, you know, after Tom flees and he gets away from Utah. Um, now they’re turning their anger toward uh John and Mary. And so John knew that the only way that he could even get spared was uh the call went out uh to all the saints that they needed to get into the walled city in Utah because the, the US army was coming. And so they, he went there and he didn’t want to do it, but he went ahead and joined Brigham’s army inside the camp because they took their wagon, their cows, their horses, everything they brought with them to the city. They were confiscated right there. They didn’t, they didn’t get to have it. And so anyway, once he got on the inside and he, you know, signed up and all that as long as he was in this army, you know, for the, for Brigham, it was ok. But then what happened was he knew he had to get out of there. He knew he knew they, that they were never gonna get out. And there was already rumors of people that uh had been in there that had tried to get out that John knew that they killed and it’s all in this book and they killed them and it tells their names. Uh, but anyway,

[1:36:34] Michelle: so you have a rough idea. I’m just curious if you know somebody that don’t look.

[1:36:39] Cheryl Clute: Uh, let’s see, what did I write that time here before John could decide what to do next? An old friend, a neighbor of theirs, John Le Lewes walked up to the wagon and said in an undertone, don’t start anything, John, they are looking for any excuse to destroy us. Anyone who makes a false move to false move or refuses to take orders is missing the next morning. Such men are secretly taken out in the night and they are never seen again. Mr Lo had climbed up on up on the wagon wheel. John motioned him aside so he could get down on the wagon himself. But lo stayed where he was still pleading with John. He heard about, he heard about brother Potter getting shot, didn’t you? No, I did not know about that. Are you sure John asked? Yes, I’m sure they are. They, they also stabbed Parrish and murdered his son. His friend said, oh my God, have they gone that far? John said Mr Parrish had been a good friend that is a strong accusation to make against them. Brother Luz unless they are, you are sure I’m sure we are all sure ask anyone in here. It happened right at the gate. Our only hope is with the United States army. We hear it is outside of the city now and pray that it gets here in time to save us all. So this is what was going on behind that walled city. So anyway, what

[1:38:19] Michelle: happened? And I read, I read other accounts of the parishes while I was doing my blood atonement work. So again, there is a lot of valid verification for these claims. Ok. Keep

[1:38:27] Cheryl Clute: going. So anyway, so what happened was that he had to John had to figure out a way to get his wife and family out of there. So he made friends with one of the guards and he, he said he had tried, you know, he kind of filled them all out and he felt like this one was the most gullible. And so he, he ended up uh telling this guard if you’ll get me a wagon and some oxen and get me, get us out of here. I will deed you my land and all the other animals and everything I left there on my farm. I’ll let you have it all in my house, everything and he’s, and I forget how many acres of uh I think it was wheat that he had, that was about ready to be cultivated. And so he told, he told the guys like, yeah, because this guy was young. Yeah. Heck yeah, I’ll take it all, you know. And he said, ok, will you get me this wagon and all this and that? And I will do it. And so sure enough, they got a, a few days later they get a note and uh was snuck to his wife and said, you need to, you know, give this to John. And so he told John, he says, I’m gonna have the wagon and everything ready to go. And so on that one night they got out and they got in the wagon, they were able to escape to get out. They got out on the wagon and they started heading down at, uh, the, the guard actually told him you need to go at this other route. Don’t go this route, go this route because, you know, you might be followed. Well, John was kind of leery of that thinking, well, maybe it’s a setup, but he went ahead and did it anyway. So he, they’re on the trail and they’re heading to the, you know, cross, I guess it’s Nevada or going to California. They were getting close to the desert. They’ve been gone out of Utah about 2 to 3 days and, uh, all of a sudden, um, they see all this dust in the, in the, in the air coming in horses hips and they’re like, oh, no, you know, this has got to be the avenging angels coming after us. So he made Mary and the kids get off and there was some big boulders and go hide in the boulders. And he said, I’m gonna go on down a little ways. You guys stay behind the rocks and I’m gonna go down and I’m gonna wait at the wagon train. I’ve got my gun and all this. But you guys just keep quiet. So he goes on down a little ways. He can still see this. You know, the rocks, Mary can see the wagon track the wagon anyway. So as they’re approaching, uh, he was ready, he had his gun, he was waiting for him. He was gonna start shooting him and Mary couldn’t, his, he, she just couldn’t stand it no longer to see if it was. So she came out from behind the rock just to peek to see who it was. And it was the army from the United States. And, and, and so Mary at that time comes all the way out from behind the rock. And she says, John John stop, don’t shoot. It’s the United States army don’t, don’t shoot. So he put his gun down and, and her and the Children came out from behind the rocks and um, the army said, are, are you the Griffiths? And they said, yes, we are. They said, well, we’ve been looking for you. We got word that you had escaped several nights ago. And uh, we were told that by one of your friends inside the camp and there all the uh the Utah, the salt lake has been saved by the US army. And all the people that were in there behind the walls now have been let out and we’ve got a wagon train coming on the same road being led out by the army and let’s just wait here until they all get here and then you can all follow us. We will protect you to get out of here and they took them all the way to California. And so for protection. And so, um anyway, John even said, I’m gonna go back, I’m gonna get my farm and I’m gonna get my crops and the, and the, and the guy, the army guy said, no, you’re not going back because if you do, they said polygamy has not been stopped yet and Brigham is not gonna give it up, you know, he was not going to give it up at all. Um And so that’s uh he even referred to Brigham Young in this diary that it was like a king being the throne that Brigham wasn’t that good to give it up early. But anyway, this book, I mean, seriously, it’s, it’s worth the, the whole read. It’s really good, but they did escape because of the army, saving all those people in Utah. All there was lots of people behind the wall that escaped with this army.

[1:43:13] Michelle: And do you know what’s so fascinating? It is. So even talking to Barbara Jones Brown about the Mountain Mountain Meadows massacre the way that they explain it or talk about it as war strategy because Brigham considered that he was at war with theme with the United States because they, he didn’t want to be dethroned, right? They wanted fair government. And Brigham said absolutely not. I have to be here. So anyway, I can imagine that they were telling themselves these people are traitors. Any apostate is a traitor and deserves that. The the war mentality combined with the blood atonement teaching, which was ubiquitous at this time period, you can see how this this all would of course be what was happening. This conversation was so good that we didn’t want to cut it down. So we’ve decided to break it into two parts. So I’m going to pause here for the first part and you can look forward to part two being released either next week or sometime in the upcoming weeks. But I want to again, give a huge thank you to Cheryl and Dan for all of their work, sharing their thoughts for engaging on these important topics and just for the incredible people. They are. So thank you again, Cheryl and Dan for joining me and thank you to all of you who are following us along with on this journey, who are open to truth and who are willing to go into these difficult topics with me. I really appreciate it and I will see you next time.