108: Our First Live Call-in Show | 132 Problems: Revisiting Mormon Polygamy

Join Michelle for a live broadcast and call-in show where you can get your questions answered.

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Transcript:

[00:03] Michelle: I love it. Thank you. Welcome to 132 problems and our very first live stream. I’m hoping that everything goes smoothly. This is so exciting. I have a whole team of awesome people here helping me and I have no idea how I don’t, I don’t know who’s there on your end, but I am really excited to get to talk to you and to get to answer your questions. So I have to, first of all say, um I want to thank everyone who joined in and shared last week’s video last week’s episode. It has really um gone crazy and I’ve been so pleased with, with the interactions from it. It’s been really good to see how many people have been resonating with that video. So, thank you so much. And in the meantime, this is really exciting. So I said in the, in our morning episode that this is supposed to be our fifth Sunday live stream. But since it’s Easter, we are trying it today. So we all have been on high alert trying to get ready for. I’m really excited call in if you’re not able to get through. I, I’ve been told, don’t leave a message, just keep trying to call back because it won’t, no one will be able to listen to the messages. So we’re just gonna go ahead and go right at it. Oh yeah. And here’s our phone call, one call, I was gonna say 1 800 Joe Joe one wife, but it’s just Joe one wife. 5636639433. And we would love to, I would love to talk to you so called Joe one wife. So we have one question here in the chat already that that came. And so this is Steven Nick, my good friend Steven, he said many critics of the LDS church will say that the church hides uncomfortable information. They might point to the contrary, first vision accounts being locked up for visions, histories and um un and unreleased William Clayton documents. Why do you think the LDS church was willing to release the Joseph Smith papers? It surely has done more damage to their narrative than anything else? Oh, that’s a really interesting question. Um I, I’m just so glad that they released the Joseph Smith papers because I think was it? Oh, see, I’m, I’m got a little too much nerves going on so I won’t get every name right? So someone can put in the name, the right um in the chat the right name? But was it Hubie Brown that said if we have the truth, it can’t be damaged and if we have not the truth, then it ought to be damaged. And I just really think that’s true. I think the more information we have, the better we can know if we have truth and the more solid our testimonies can be, the more solid our foundations can be. So I actually think it does the opposite of hurting the church. I think it helps the church. I think the more trustworthy the church is, the more their um narrative is backed up by solid evidence and solid um information. I think the better, the better things are all around because first of all, it’s always better to have truth. It’s always better to be founded in the truth. That’s where God really is. And I think that this, these, these so many people leaving the church and having their testimonies challenged because they were built on a sandy foundation has been more destructive to the church than anything else. So I personally am really glad that we have the Jose in the papers and I hope it continues with more and more transparency. And so, are you ready for a call? Oh, I thought we saw, I thought I saw Carl coming in. So let’s see. Oh, I have another question that came in. Many people believe that the polygamy deniers are being deceived. What are your thoughts? Well, of course, I think exactly the opposite. I think that the polygamy deniers are the ones who are willing to really look at the evidence. It is so easy to believe a narrative we’ve always heard and it’s really hard to go against the mainstream. It’s really hard to be called silly or crazy or stupid or sidelined or a conspiracy theorist. And so I, I just think that if we look at the evidence, that’s how we find out what the truth is, that’s the best that we can do is really investigate firsthand sources. Look at our sources, look at what our opinions are based on. So I think that I will tell you this, this is the trajectory that I see. The more people dive in to the actual sources and the actual evidence that stream seems to take people one direction. I have yet to see someone who thought Joseph wasn’t a polygamist who got into the actual sources and changed their mind and decided that he was, maybe that’s happened to some people and I’d be very interested to talk to them and find out what sources they find found to be sort of there that, that compelling, that they change their mind. But for me and for everyone I have engaged with it has been exactly the opposite. So I, I really think that if we want truth, we should look at the sources and try to find out, um I try to find out what they tell us and that’s how we can know that we’re not deceived. So I think that most people refuse to look at the sources because they’re, they’re nervous of what they will find out or nervous of what the implications may be. And I think that that’s a mistake. God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind, we can handle the truth. So, let’s see. I think we have another question. What do you think will happen with the new biography about Joseph Smith that President Nelson has announced, the one that Brother Turley was commissioned to do. Oh, that’s a really good question. I am. I’m kind of on pins and needles to see what happens with that from what I know to this point, I’m um a little bit concerned, not terribly optimistic just based on the people. Um some, some of the people that I know are working on it and some of their narrative really, really hope, I guess I’ll just put this call out to any of the historians working on that. I really hope that you will engage. Not only, well, I hope you’ll engage directly with some of the people that are um on our side of this, this debate, right? Because we really have pushed forward the the knowledge base beyond where it used to be. Um just believing that kind of old narrative of Joseph’s polygamy is based on old information. It really is out of date. And so I am like I’m just putting my hope in and my plug in that I hope that they will engage, I don’t care if they engage with me or with somebody else, but I hope that they will engage with our information. I would love to see a really good um someone on the polygamy denial side of the aisle, um who is really good at the sources. I would love to see someone like that actually hired to contribute to that book because I think that that would be a great way to make sure that all of the bases are covered. I can tell you this, if they don’t do something like that, this is not going to be a very useful book. If it just tells the same, I mean, we already have Saints, we already have the gospel topics, essays, we already have the other biographies, Rough Stone Rolling and, and the others. We don’t need more of the same narrative. It will be a huge waste of time and money. If it just rehashes the same narrative with maybe a few changes here and there. It needs to be a really rigorously done book that is looked at from all angles and if they are willing to do that, I think it will be profoundly important and impactful. So I can’t make a prediction, but I can sure say what I hope will be the outcome. So let’s see. Here’s another question. Um What do your bishop and state president. Think of your podcast. Oh, that’s a really good question as well. So, my bishop, um, II, I, we had a new bishop put in last year and, um, and he is a great guy. A really nice guy. Like my old bishop who I don’t think is terribly interested in the topic, which is fine with me. I have um, met with him. I, I asked to meet with him just to let him know what I was doing. So he wouldn’t be taken off guard if there were any more emails or letters coming in. And so, so, um, I’m certainly not going to say that I have his two thumbs up seal of approval, but I did explain what I’m doing and, um, he said that he would stop talk to the state president about it and, but didn’t, didn’t, um, express a lot of concern other than, well, I’m gonna talk to the state president see what he says. And, um, many of, you know, that I absolutely love my state president. I think he is an incredibly good, sincere, um, just, just a good, humble man and he, um, I’m guessing that my podcast makes him a little bit uncomfortable and I hate that I hate making these guys job any harder than it has to be. And, um, but at the same time, I really believe that he knows who I am and that he knows my spirit and trusts that and um, and he has given me counsel periodically here and there and, um, really he’s part, you know, II I don’t want to do anything that would, um, I guess betray the trust that I feel like he has put me as in a, as in, as far as not, um, asking me to stop or taking any steps along those line. And so, so, so far so good because I have really good leaders And I think that there are, I think that there are people who are very, um who are very committed to the truthfulness of the gospel and want various perspectives to be heard, various faithful perspectives, especially so anyway, so, so far so good with that. And I’m really thankful. And so let’s see, I have another chat. So I guess, have we not gotten a call yet? We’re OK. Call in, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll get some calls coming. So, um let’s see. Where would you suggest starting to look at for firsthand sources? It feels overwhelming. Ok. I totally understand that feeling anyone who’s watched this podcast from the beginning as you’ve all been instructed to do repeatedly. Um Well, you understand that I felt completely overwhelmed by the history. Well, first of all, when I started digging into this, probably 15 years ago, I felt completely overwhelmed by the topic in general because even just going to the scriptures felt like a ton to try to take on. And so digging, digging into that side of it felt huge and that’s why I was so thankful to be able to engage with um the best polygamy defenders, right? Like actual F LDS people and F LDS scholars that really helped me to know what the arguments were as well as just reading the scriptures for myself. So once I felt like I really, I mean, it’s been years since I felt like I had a pretty thorough understanding. It’s of course grown as I’ve, um, continued to engage during doing this podcast. But it took me a full, I don’t know, like a year till I dared to feel like I could handle the historical mess. It just felt like this huge, overwhelming, ah, how do I possibly get into that? I don’t know what to do with any of it. And so, um, that was ii, I very much understand. So I think that the, the resources that are there now, Whitney Horning book, um, the prices, books are huge as well and I, I know they’re written from an rlvs perspective. Well, the, the traditional, the restoration branches perspective. So it can, it’s not exactly, um, what we believe, but those are really good places to start. And then the podcasts that are coming out, there are a lot of people doing this and then I do think it’s just useful. Here’s where I guess I would suggest starting when you hear me talk about something or someone else talk about something and there’s a link, click on the link and go start getting your feet wet into the Joseph Smith papers. And that’s a really um useful way to get started. And so I think you can start there and then just see where you go from there. It’s, it feels overwhelming until you get in and all of a sudden you’re swimming and you know how to swim and you’re just figuring it out. So that’s what my, my suggestion would be. So, ok, it looks like we have a phone call from Benjamin. So Benjamin, are you on? Yes, I am. Hi. Thanks for calling.

[11:43] Benjamin: Yeah, thanks for uh, doing your, your, uh youtube channel.

[11:48] Benjamin: Um, we,

[11:50] Benjamin: we have, ok,

[11:52] Benjamin: so I went on my mission in the late nineties and we were still taking a bunch of flak from the discrimination that happened against black members of the church. And during that time, the bring him young manual came out. And like, if you’ve grown up in the church, you knew this was like a highly sanitized version

[12:12] Michelle: of what the teachings of the presidents of the church. Is that what you’re talking about? Ok.

[12:18] Benjamin: Exactly. And, um, one thing that I’ve noticed recently is I was reading through the Wentworth letter and that last paragraph before the articles of faith where it talks about the standard of truth has been erected and it talks about, um, no, unfollowed hand is gonna stop the church from fulfilling its ultimate, right? But when you look at the different he rattles off, right. Um, he talks about co calamity or whatever it is, that’s kind of like spreading, right? And then uh mobs may combine and armies might assemble like that. That’s all effects of polygamy, right? I mean, so I’m wondering if in it’s a hypothesis, right? I’m wondering if that unhallowed hand they’re talking about in the Wentworth letter is, you know, Joseph Smith had some kind of clue that the church might go off course after his uh like maybe Brigham Young and, or John Taylor, is that unhallowed hand? It’s just a hypothesis. I, I was wondering if you had any

[13:35] Michelle: thoughts on that. I actually, I can, well, first, I just want to thank ejs who just sent in a Super Chat. I really appreciate that. And then Benjamin, I will tell you this, that it was actually in the middle of one of my podcasts that I was doing when I found myself saying that when I found myself saying no unhallowed hand can stop the truth from progressing in direct regard to Brigham Young. So that is definitely how I have come to interpret that because III I think that is II, I hadn’t put together the piece that you brought that maybe Joseph Smith was um knowingly predicting that I just felt like he was prophesying that either intentionally or unintentionally. And II, I love here, I looked it up. So we can say we can read the whole thing. No one hallowed hand can stop the work, work, progressing persecutions may rage, mobs may combine armies may assemble column. The colony may defame but the truth of God will go forward nobly boldly. I’m trying to remember it boldly nobly and independent till it has penetrated every continent and it goes on from there. And yes, I, so I share your hypothesis and I actually love it because I love it. I think it really um can be unsettling to people, right? To learn that maybe Brigham Young did some things that were um shall we say unhallowed? And um and I, oh, go ahead. Well, I was just gonna say, I think for me, I find it incredibly comforting to know that God knew that the whole time. Go ahead. Yes. And it

[15:09] Benjamin: says something kind of strange, which is that, you know, goes back to why is it, why is it not the church of Heavenly Father of Latter Day Saints or the Church of the Holy Ghost of Latter Day Saints or the church of Joseph Smith of Latter Day Saints, right? It sort of implies that like Jesus Christ is kind of running the show regardless

[15:30] Benjamin: of how

[15:31] Benjamin: far off course any individual profit goes.

[15:36] Michelle: I completely agree with that. Oh, go ahead. It’s so,

[15:38] Benjamin: it’s just so weird. It, I mean, it’s just a, it’s just, it’s just, it’s a very strange thing to me. Is all, it’s, but I find it very, it’s very faith promoting also.

[15:50] Michelle: Yeah, I was just, I was just reading this and it goes on to say, until it has penetrated in a great visit, every, every country and sound in every ear. And then this is the part that just got my attention till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done. And so it’s not really about the church, right? It’s about the purposes of God. And I think that’s really cool. Like that’s one way because sometimes people will be hard on, well, probably all of us definitely on me saying like, how can you stay in the church? You’re so hypocritical. I get that both from active believing members of the church who disagree with me on polygamy. And I get it from people who agree with me on polygamy, but who have left the church, right? But that’s to me, this is what it comes down to God’s in charge. I really, really believe that God is in charge and God could have made this all happen differently, right? And God allowed it to happen this way. And I think it’s because the purposes of God are for each of us to learn to discern truth regardless of what’s happening. Oh, go ahead.

[16:52] Benjamin: Yeah. And, and he’s insisting that we all use our agency, right? And that applies to the pro that applies to the leaders of the church too. They have to use their agency also and there’s consequences for that also.

[17:03] Michelle: Absolutely. And I believe the invitation is always there for all of us to repent. So that’s, that’s what I think it comes down to. Oh, go ahead. Is that all? Well,

[17:13] Benjamin: just, I just, I just want to get your two cents on that as well.

[17:16] Michelle: Ok. Well, thank you so much. I think that was a great question and I love that we share that insight in common. I love always getting a second witness. So thanks for the call, Benjamin.

[17:24] Benjamin: Oh, ok. Yeah, thank you.

[17:27] Michelle: Ok. It looks like we now have Carolyn. Ok. So we’re just about ready. All right, Carolyn. Can you hear me? Yes. Oh, good. Thank you for calling.

[17:40] Carolyn: The first thing. You’re welcome. I, I thank you for doing this. Uh The first thing I wanted to say is that uh last episode, I thought you knocked it out of the park. It was so good. Thank you so

[17:53] Michelle: much. I appreciate that. Should I tell you all a funny story before we get to your question? That’s, that’s funny. Now, I um that week that I was trying to get that episode ready. Just so everyone will know I, among other things, everything that possibly could happen that week happened, including my car broke. I’ve got six kids, I’m trying to run everywhere and I didn’t have a car and then um one day when I was working so hard, my computer broke, I actually dropped my computer and my computer broke and I, and then about four other things and I also ended up getting sick. And so I just kind of, I just kept praying like Lord, I’m just hoping that this is all the adversity because this episode really matters. It is really important. So I, so I have to say I’m really thankful that that was a really hard week and I got it done and as soon as I finished it, like, felt like this burden lifted off my shoulders and I was like, OK, let’s hope this is a good one. So thank you for letting me know that it was worthwhile.

[18:52] Carolyn: Yes, it was. Um my, let’s see, uh some background to my question. Um I guess I’ve, I’ve been um sitting on the edge of my seat um watching uh drink, drinking in every uh thing that they, that was uttered over, over the pulpit and in Sunday school just ever since I can remember in my youngest years. And um so, um you know, just has caused, this has caused a little bit quite a bit of um reconstruction, recon, reconstructing and reconstructing and stuff. And with COVID. Um And so I, we have spent 42 years and he’s in um in Texas uh away from Utah and we just barely moved up here and we had um to wait for our house to sell. There was some snag when my husband was transferred from Salt Lake Aus. Um in that we have experienced um so much um price like uh um expressions and, and help and, you know, beyond what I know that we would’ve ever gotten a, away from the scene and there’s, there’s so much, there’s, I feel like there is so much light and so, and I really appreciate the last comments about, you know, you know, uh, but that, but it’s disturbing that I, I didn’t realize that there could be a hallowed hand in the church. You know, that’s, that’s what we need for our group. But, um, but, um, so I’m, my question is, um, you know, with, with, um, all these cases that the horrific cases that come out of, um, branches of the restoration, the, um,

[21:01] Michelle: they go.

[21:03] Carolyn: Yes. Yes. And they be, and, and the, the, yeah, the murders and so forth. Um, it seems like there’s so many people coming out of the woodwork from every side saying that this is a cult and I think it seems like all the cult things came from the unhallowed hands. And, uh, and so I, I just, it’s, it’s really interesting to try to sort it all out and like one big question. I see a lot of people in the chat having it, you know, where, where did the endowment come from? What are, are you, uh, is, um, have you

[21:46] Michelle: watched my episodes coming out. Have you watched my episodes? Ok. Ok. So, yeah. So what is your question?

[21:53] Carolyn: Oh, ok. My one, my, my biggest question is how to, um, help because it, I see the light and so how can we help those around us that, you know, that are, go, going, uh, um, away or calling people away that how can we, I don’t know, they stop the, the, the hemorrhage, how it was the best way to, you know what I’m saying?

[22:25] Michelle: Yeah. Like how can we help people

[22:27] Carolyn: know it’s not a cult, I mean, or say yes, there’s culty things in the church and we, you know, let’s, let’s uh say the uh don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[22:39] Michelle: Yes. Yes. I think this is such a good question. And so I always have to preface it by saying I do honor people’s journey. And if you know, people feel like they need to leave the church, I’m not going to um say they can’t or that they, you know, they must not. But um but I agree with you, I think that I, I feel very much that I want people to stay in the church. I think the church is better with its members and I think the world is better with the church, you know. And so for me, one thing um I try to do is to um remember a couple of different things, the church doesn’t have to be all or nothing. Right. The church is what we make of it. And I think that also helps it not be culty. Right. Like I, I have a hard time with people who call the church a cult at this point. I think that that’s just not very well informed or I

[23:30] Carolyn: did too. I don’t like it at all.

[23:32] Michelle: Right. And so I think one thing that I try to do is to be in the church to exist in the church and yet say what I believe. And I hope that that um demonstrates to people the possibility to do both, right? That it doesn’t have to be one or the other if the church serves people well and their families, well, I think us demonstrating um demonstrating the willingness and ability to have the courage to maybe occasionally when led by the spirit speak up in relief society or, or priesthood meeting or gospel doctrine and make a comment that maybe expands people’s perception a little bit, right? And, and be willing to, um and I, I think, I think it’s powerful to let people see us being ourselves in the church. And um that’s the best thing I know to do and to, and being joyful in the church. Right? I’m like, I know I’ve taken a lot of flak over the years for my willingness to, I hope not criticize, but to point out concerns I have about various things in the church. But I’m really glad I’ve done it because I’ve seen so much division on, on both sides, just like you’re talking about. I think that there’s this com, I think that people who are so adamantly in the church that they just can’t allow room for people to have different opinions or perspectives. They’re, I, I believe partially responsible for people who leave because they really give us the impression there’s no room for you here. Right. And so so I want to speak to those people and say, please make room, please make room, please don’t call for my excommunication or other people. Like, do you really want anyone who doesn’t completely agree with you and leave the church? Is that what you want? You know, please make room and, and just continue to discourse, continue to talk. If, if I’m wrong, then let’s talk about it and let the spirit and your um evidence or, you know, convince me and then, and then on the other side to people who feel like they have to leave. I just iii I guess I want to encourage people to be patient with those decisions, right? It’s so easy to learn a bunch of things and feel like there are all these problems and it’s not true and I have to leave and I, I think that those um and um those decisions made in times of turmoil aren’t often the very best decisions. And so I’m all for people stepping back as they need to. But I really do. That’s what I encourage people is like, do the church your way, let it serve you. The church is for the people, not the people, for the church, right? We do all serve and we contribute and that’s wonderful. But it should be something that brings us all joy. So that’s, that’s about the best. And then, and then as I’ve studied all of this, my testimony of the book of Mormon and like the last question, the, the power of, of God’s hand in everything that has happened. My testimony of all of those things has grown profoundly. My testimony of Brigham Young has not grown, but my testimony of God has and actually my testimony of the restoration has and my testimony of in the goodness of the church has. So that’s what I hope that we can all do is be in the church and speak what we know to be true and be who we are and be as loving and Christ, like and excited about life and the gospels, we can be. So I’ll tell you a big part of the reason that I stayed in the church through some really difficult times was because of amazing people in the church who helped me stay. So I hope that we can be those people for others. So thank you for calling for your phone. I think we have some other people waiting.

[26:54] Carolyn: There is a lot of OK, I was just gonna say that, that, that um so true that we need to remember to give to make room in the church. And that um going to this journey has made me closer to God and, and uh helped me realize that each person is needed and you know, to, to, to stand on their own 2 ft.

[27:18] Michelle: Yes, I love that. And that’s something we can keep telling people too is that this journey isn’t to be feared because it does increase our, I, I believe it increases our understanding of God and our love of God and our faith in God. So thank you so much Carolyn and I appreciate the call. You’re welcome.

[27:32] Carolyn: Thank you. Bye bye, goodbye.

[27:34] Michelle: And I think next we have Mark on the phone and so, ok, Mark. Hi. Thanks for calling. Hi Michelle. How are you? I’m good. How are you?

[27:47] Mark: I’m doing very well. Hey, I just wanna thank you for all the research you’ve done. It’s been so valuable to us, especially your research and your four episodes on the temple. And after seeing the source material and all that you’ve gone into, it’s left me with no belief at all that there’s any efficacy in the what goes on in the temple. And, you know, for a couple of years, uh as recently as six months ago, I had gone to the temple weekly. Those are the promises of blessings. I never really felt a lot. I just wanna get your impressions with all the research you’ve done. Do you believe there’s efficacy in the temple ordinances? Because for me, they’ve just, they’ve just turned to nothing.

[28:40] Michelle: Oh, that’s such a good question. And I first want to just say I’m sorry, like that’s a painful, it’s, it, it is challenging to have our perspectives change so much. So, I will tell you, I have wondered about and struggled with and prayed about the temple ordinances for many years. Um Maybe going on almost, well, about at least 17 years. And I, like, you have had periods of my time where I went weekly for often for, for many, many years at a time. And I will say this. I, so I always kind of wondered, I, I learned quite early on in my journey that the way I described it was that temple ordinances aren’t a thing themselves. I kind of called them like a um what is the word? What is the wording that I used? My brain is drawing a blank. But iii I guess I’ll just have to come up with new words. I, I thought that they were sort of a physical foreshadowing of actual spiritual events that we, that could happen. For example, baptism isn’t actually the ordinance isn’t actually where the power is, the ordinance is pointing us toward the baptism of fire that we can experience and coming through the veil into the presence of God isn’t actually happening. In the temple. But it’s pointing us toward that process that I believe the gospel is all about, which is coming into the presence of God and being sealed in the temple as a, you know, I was a 20 year old. Um I don’t think that’s actually where we are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, but I believe it points us to actual spiritual events that can occur, occur. Does that make sense? So for a long makes sense? Ok. So for a long time, I mean, oh no, no, I asked you a question. So for a long time, I looked at it through that lens and tried to learn everything I could sort of like, OK, if this is a symbolic road map, what things can I learn that can help me along this journey? And so in that sense, I um I still think that the temple has the same power that I thought it had before I did that research into the temple to point us toward the, the things that God has promised to bless us with as we follow along this path. And I also have found so I found power in the temple in those ways and truth and efficacy in the temple. I also, and I’m sure you can relate to this. I’ve had times in my life when I have found immense spiritual power in the temple, insight, um blessings, um peace, comfort and uh sorry in difficult times, I’m still struggling with 2020 the the the temple, them taking the temple away is something that I still have not um made peace with, I guess I can say. But in general, I have had so many times where I loved going to the temple for additional spiritual power or answers or peace, whatever it may be. And I personally believe that God honors the faith of people, as I said in those temple episodes, right? I think my faith in that sacred space that is held sacred by so many people. And my attending there is, is answered by the Lord, right? So I still do believe um that the temple, if, if we look to it still in that way, it can still answer our faith, it can still answer that me, that end of its purpose. And, and so, so I, as I said, I still have not come. I, I stopped attending the temple as often as I used to. Um about the time they made the new series of Adam and Eve movies, they made, they made like three of them at the same time that didn’t sit right with me. And I was trying to figure this all out for myself. So I haven’t attended as frequently for the last several years, but I’ve still gone. And then since the shutdowns, I’ve only gone back. Uh honestly, I’ve only gone back once and that’s not necessarily intentional. It’s, you know, I’m I’m open to going when I feel led to, but I haven’t yet, but I, I am really happy that I have friends that are still going. So I guess, I guess I’m saying all of this to just say, I personally do think that there is um use in the temple. And I think it’s a personal individual journey. I like one of the things I kind of came to is to let, let my relationship with the temple be moderated with God instead of letting my relationship with God be moderated by the temples. I think we’re kind of taught to do. Does that make sense? When I say that? Do you understand what I’m saying?

[33:06] Mark: I, I do, I think one thing I’ve learned in this journey is that we tend to apply spiritual um experiences to things we’ve been taught, bring spiritual experiences when really it’s our seeking God. And so we can be seeking God and we happen to be in the temple. Whereas if we’ve been in, in the woods or taking a walk and had that same fortitude of seeking, we would have had the same experience. And so I think it’s easy to, I don’t wanna say be manipulated, but almost to fool yourself into thinking these things come because of this, when in essence, they come because we’re seeking the

[33:48] Michelle: Lord. Yes. II, I think that faith and desire is the power, not the building. I agree with that.

[33:55] Mark: Yeah. And I guess just when you go back to the original endowment and you look at how it evolved with polygamy and um you know, wife putting another wife’s hand in her husband’s hand. I, I just the whole source of it and, and it was so powerful in your episodes of all these immaculate and amazing buildings that were built. Um And then when you go watch Mountain of the Lord, it’s like it was the greatest religious edifices of all time. They spent 40 years to put this together when in essence, it had little value to them. They, they built so much and did so much. And so as you just see the full picture unfold, um the importance of it. So the early saints comes, becomes pretty clear that it really wasn’t that important and it, it was just based on such a uh an unworthy um beginning of polygamy and, and you know, and it’s just down to the, the navoo and the temple wasn’t completed. And Joseph really didn’t um restore all that he meant to restore because the temple was never completed anyway. I don’t want to belabor. It leaves me very suspect that any of it is really came from God.

[35:12] Michelle: 00, that’s, oh, yeah. OK. I understand. I, this is how I kind of look at it like that first color where we talked about God knew this was all going to happen. This is uh you know, I’ll show you my pers share my perspective. God knew this was all going to happen. And when I was having profound experiences in the temple, it wasn’t any, the, the truth about the history of it wasn’t any different than it is now. It’s just me knowing. Right. And um and I do wanna say I have a slightly different perspective and maybe it, maybe it’s since I’ve recorded that episode. But I do think that um well, yeah, I, I don’t think that Brigham Young prioritized the temple, but I tend to think that maybe it’s because it was such a mess. The foundation was such a mess that he just washed his hands of it. You know, they didn’t know what to do because they did have the endowment house and the Saint George temple anyway. So, so it’s hard to know exactly what the mindset was there. But I guess for people this is, I guess where I am with it. I don’t think that not going to the temple injures my relationship with God if I feel God is telling me not to go to the, if I, if I don’t feel inspired by God to go to the temple. But I also feel like if I do feel inspired to go to the temple, then there may then spiritual experiences may, can await me there. Right. You’re exactly right. Joseph was in a grove of trees when God, when God appeared to Joseph. Right? And I know that my husband and I both have had um heavenly manifestations and seen visitors in the temple. So, so I guess that’s, I just, I just, I would encourage people to, to do what they feel inspired to do is the best I’ve got. But thank you so much for the phone call. I appreciate it. Thank you. Yes, thank you. Oh, I thought we had another one waiting. Is that ok? Let me see if we have any chats coming in. I have people sharing chats with me. So let’s see. Um, so this question is from, let’s see, I’m trying to find the one I have and I might have to come back to one if I missed it. So, here’s a question that says Joseph Smith was a candidate for president other than the warning, other than the warning to Stephen Douglas. Is there anything written in credible sources in American history about Joseph’s candidacy? And I have to say I am not an expert on that topic at all. So I would have to look and see. I’m trying to remember. I’ve read quite a bit of the, um, Warsaw signal and the single mode journal and I know they talk about Hiram’s Senate race and I, I believe that those do say things about Joseph running for president. If I’m recalling, someone can put in the chats if I’m wrong because I haven’t read them recently enough. And that wasn’t the question I was asking but if I, if I recall correctly, I do think that there were um things about his presidency. So I, I didn’t know that there that was up for. Um I didn’t know if people, that people, that it was um at all what’s controversial that Joseph ran for president. So that’s not something that I’ve known to um, to look into. I would be curious if um Alan, who asked this question is still in the chat. If he has a follow up to help me understand a little bit more. But, um, ok, let’s go to Leon’s question. Did you address in any of your episodes? A letter written by Maria Jane Woodward. She claims that Emma told her that she realized polygamy was from God and she was just jealous and needed to repent. Ok, so I have to say, um, one of the things I’m nervous about is there are so many names and so many documents that I’ve looked through that I don’t have them all an instant recall. I do. I, I can definitely think of a letter that I’m thinking that this is probably about, but I’m not sure if it’s Maria Jane Woodward. And so, um, so let’s see. Um I’m getting a message but I’m not sure what I’ve been told. So. 00, is there a follow up? Ok. Thank you. The letter is used by Brother Halverson on his podcast to show that Emma was trying. Oh, Em, I was sorry, was trying to come to terms with pulling me. Ok. Yeah, sorry. So, first of all, if I were going to be investigating this, which I’m sure I will do now and I think I have read this in the past if I recall this letter was written much later again. Right. It was written many decades later. And I, if I’m recalling, I think it was the husband that was involved and told his wife about it, right? Is it the husband that said he um saw Joseph washing his hands after helping one of his wives deliver a baby. Maybe I’m getting the details, right? Maybe I’m getting them wrong. But I do know that this letter was much later and I, this is what I think um I think that brother Halverson is great. I think that he like so many others starts with a desired narrative and then tries to find sources to fit into that narrative. And so I don’t think that this letter would actually be that important if it didn’t tell the story that he want to want, wanted told to me, it goes along with the claim that um that Emma inviting um Lewis vitamins, his, his her husband’s mistress into her home and and raising the child showed that she had finally come to grips with polygamy. And that is something I adamantly object to. So I don’t like how they use these sources to try to paint the version of Emma that they want painted and yet they’re really dishonest about not including say William Clinton’s journal. Like he doesn’t talk about the claim of William Clayton that, that Emma was out of control screaming at Joseph in a carriage riding through town and he had to treat her roughly which to me sounds, I am vision that as a slap across the face, right? So if we’re going to be using these sources to tell this narrative, we need to tell the true narrative and he needs to tell what they actually, that Brigham actually claims that Joseph, that Emma tried to murder Joseph multiple times trying to poison him twice. And that um that they taught that she pushed Eliza down the stairs, right? And that she was the most wicked woman in the on the w in the world in a fiend of hell. And so that’s what bothers me about this um approach to the sources. I think that they are used. I sometimes get accused of cherry picking, which I just have to throw up my hands, hands and laugh. I think it’s ridiculous because I think that’s exactly what both of the other sides do, both the anti Mormons and the Mormons trying to find a better way to craft this narrative. The entire idea that God uh that Emma failed, failed her abrahamic test of allowing her husband to sleep with all of the 16 year olds in town, right? Like No, no. So I’m sorry, I’m sorry that he found that letter and used it that way. I would love, I’ve actually invited Jared Halverson on the show multiple times. I understand that. I think he’s a BYU um professor employed by, employed by BYU. So I understand why he doesn’t feel at liberty to come on or doesn’t feel the desire to come on. But I would love to talk to him about these sources because I strongly object to the narrative and the way the sources are used. I don’t think it’s very honest. So am I taking another chat or did we have a phone call? Ok, let me go. Ok. So um oh, so let’s see. Um Are you going to be diving into temple ceilings and their history and how the polygamy ceilings were done and how it compares for current practice? Oh, that’s a really interesting question. Um I guess I hadn’t thought about that specifically. So, so I, I do have my um research into temples was so vast that I ended up with. I think it’s at least five future episodes that are on my list somewhere when I dive back into that. So II I am sure I will get back into ceilings at some point. So um ok, it looks like we have Terry on the phone. Hello, Terry.

[42:47] Teri: Hello. Hi, Jan. I just thank you so much.

[42:53] Michelle: No, I was just gonna tell you if you have the computer or something outside to turn that down. So, yeah, go ahead. Oh, I

[42:58] Teri: totally did. Ok. Um, yeah, hi. Um, thank you so much for doing this. I just, um, I just couldn’t like, sit here and listen to all of this and not call you up and just say to you thank you. And, um, this has just made such a huge difference in my life. Um, I just had to go through the biggest repentance process. I, I grew up in a family where my dad basically hated Joseph Smith and, um, thought he was gonna burn in hell next to Hitler because of polygamy. And, um, I sat through, yeah, I sat through a lot of, um, uh, kind of brainwashing type type sessions and, um, just, um, I don’t know, my emotions about this topic have been so, like, it’s like I had to shove them to the side for so long because, um, they just were too much, you know, and I just didn’t understand how this all fits into God’s plan. And, um, once I, um, listen to your first, I’m sorry, I don’t mean to get emotional, but once I listened to your first podcast that, um, it was actually the one with Jeremy Hoop. Um, and I just had this moment of thinking, oh, my gosh, like, um, this is so much different than what I thought. And, um, I just before I even continued finishing listening to it, I just got on my knees and plied to the Lord, like is this even an option? And um he just answered me just immediately and with such strength and love and I just, I mean, I don’t understand how people in the world are so brave like you. Um but I just want you to know that um it’s just been really important to me and anyhow now that I’ve told you all of that, um I just wanted to ask the question, um how big of a, I just feel like all of my friends that are leaving the church, like they have all of these little French things that bother them, but just polygamy is just this huge divider and I just wanted to know your thoughts on that. Like, do you think that it’s going to be one of the things that is just this massive dividing mind? I mean, we have to repent for how we’ve talked about Joseph Smith, God’s servant. You know, we, we as a people I really feel, I mean, I, I went through a, a week long repentance process just bawling my eyes out and feeling so terrible for how I have felt about Joseph Smith my whole life and um still believing that he was a prophet somehow. But, um you know, but, but just needing to repent deeply for how I felt about him and how much of a dividing line do you think this is gonna be for the church?

[46:06] Michelle: Well, that’s ok. That’s a good question. So I want to respond to a couple of things and then come back to that question. I think for me, I totally relate to the, the repentance necessary. I think, I think that when I, when people haven’t experienced that yet, they might be confused by us talking about repentance just for not understanding something correctly. But I know exactly what you’re talking about. And actually, the thing I felt like I needed to repent of was that I thought that of God, that I thought that God would be the author of this, right? That’s where my like I relate completely to just like the desperate need to repent for having that perception. And then yes, and then I do very much relate to also having that be on Joseph. I, I will say see, that’s one thing when you say that your dad was so anti Joseph. I, I actually like that your dad was able to say this was wrong, this is wrong. And, and so since it was wrong, I’m not just going to say God did it right? Like I like, I, I think that’s actually a better step than oh yeah, God, you know, the women can suffer. But if that’s what God says, I think that’s a terrible perspective. So anyway, so I really think that and I guess your question about polygamy being the dividing line, II, I just see so many divisive things in the church. You know, I see so many um big issues I will say, I think that polygamy is the big Joseph Smith issue. I know there are a lot of other things like horses in the book of Mormon and DNA evidence for the Lamanites and you know, the, the geographical questions and then the book of Abraham, there are lots of questions that people have about the church, but I really think polygamy is the big guns, right? So I do think in terms of wanting to have something against Joseph Smith, that’s really what it comes down to. But II, I think as far as the church being divided, I can just see. Well, this is something I’ve been thinking about a lot lately. Do you care if I go on a little sidetrack with your question?

[48:10] Teri: No, please. Are you kidding me?

[48:13] Michelle: So, this is something that’s really been on my mind lately. Like Joseph translated the book of Mormon, I believe he started in, well, well, he married Emma, I think in 1827 I believe he translated the book of Mormon in 1830. Someone can tell me if I’m wrong on that. But um in 1830 as far as I’m aware, there was no polygamy happening. I don’t think he had any polygamy going on in his life or, you know, he was a newlywed with his wife and there were no polygamists in the church. And I don’t think he’d even been exposed to that idea and yet he included polygamy in the book of Mormon. Isn’t that interesting? And, and this is something I find really fascinating, I guess I’ll, I’ll tell you the couple of thought processes that go together because when you ask about dividing issues in the church, I think that the LGBT issues are another huge dividing issue in the church. That’s really tough. I think that in 2015 when they did that really unfortunate policy, I just saw the floodgates open and that’s, that’s when it felt like to me, just the massive exodus from the church, people who just were like, absolutely not, this is not acceptable. And so, and, and so as I thought about it, I’ve been like, so if you, if you’re very familiar with um like the Mormon and LGBT discussions, which I am since I have been um interested in that topic. Ever since the Lord, I felt like started teaching me about it. And then later on learning, I have gay Children. Um people are really quick to point out that the book of Mormon doesn’t say anything about homosexuality explicitly, which I find fascinating. And so it’s made me think with what a huge issue. Um LGBT things LGBT issues are in the church today and, and it really is just this huge challenge particularly to have to be same sex, attracted to be gay, whatever word people are comfortable with. We just don’t have good answers for that at this point at all. Right, like, what do we tell our Children or people that are in that circumstance and want to be in the, like, we don’t have good answers. And so I’ve been like, why is there nothing in the book of Mormon about it? And, and I happen to believe that there is that there is information in the book of Mormon about that. But what I have found to be so interesting is I guess what’s really been weighing on my mind is the immense hypocrisy of us as a church being so adamant to call out homosexuality as abomination and to come after that so hard harshly as we have done for the last, you know, several decades. While the one abomination, the book of Mormon calls out explicitly repeatedly and the most adamantly that one we keep, we embraced and we keep in our back pockets. Do, do you know what I’m saying? Like, that’s incredible to me. I’m like, that’s massively hypocritical of us to be like no polygamy. That’s OK. God has it, but this is not OK. Right. I’m like, wow. So I guess I guess what I see happening is just flat out abomination is the dividing line in the church, right? Like I just think that anything iii I think that all of these issues, I think that we as the church, we just the church. Um because because we weren’t the ones that were alive and doing it. But the church has made itself very vulnerable to, um, like, like our stance on traditional marriage isn’t bulletproof because of polygamy, right? Because we still embrace polygamy. So it’s interesting to read, for example, the proclamation on the family keeping polygamy in mind and how the church has done that when they talk about how important it is to have God’s established order of marriage and family in society to, you know, to prevent the destructions of the last days. Anyway. I, I, so I see that as a really interesting thing. I do think polygamy is the number one thing that leads people to come to believe that Joseph Smith was not who I happen to believe Joseph Smith was, you know, that he was a bad guy rather than a good guy. And I believe it’s the number one issue that leads most people out of the church. Pretty much everyone I know who left leaves the church. Polygamy is in there somewhere, if not the main issue. And so, yeah, I think that I think we’re in for interesting times and that all I know is that like, take the Lord as our guide and hold on tight, right? Like get ready for the ride.

[52:30] Teri: Yeah, and ask, I mean, for heaven’s sake, just talk to God about it because he will answer you. It’s amazing.

[52:38] Michelle: I love. Thank you. Yes, I love that. You brought that back up because that. I think that that is exactly true God. I I and you are testifying of that. God is desperate to give us this information, right? God is so quick to answer this sincere question. If like I said in the last episode, if we’re willing to ask the right question, if we’re willing to even just ask God is polygamy of you, of, of, you know, is polygamy, righteous or wicked. I Yes. So thank you for coming on to tell people. Please please ask, ask that question. So I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Uh huh, bye bye, goodbye. Let’s hear. Are we going back to chats for a minute? Ok. So let’s see what I have. Um I have a question that says I’m trying to figure out if tithing is what Jesus wants us to do. I don’t feel good about paying any money to the church anymore. Oh, this is a hard one because this is something I haven’t talked about yet on my channel. Um Yeah, I, I understand this. It’s a really hard one. I um I don’t know how much I feel inspired to say on this topic at this time. I do think it’s important to listen um to the Lord’s guidance on this and I think it’s something that many of us can relate to. And um I will say I interviewed um rock Waterman a few weeks ago. He’s great. He has a fantastic blog. And so I think he’s done some work on this that I think is worth uh worth reading. And considering, I know that our um the church’s history with tithing is very complicated and confusing. And I do believe that, you know, a lot of things tend to kind of ossify and solidify into a practice that we have now that, that we think it’s always been this way and it must always be this way. But when we look at again into the historical sources, that just isn’t the case. I know that when the 10% was begun, um the leaders told us they, they didn’t want to do it and they said it would only be for a very short, short time until they got past this challenge that they, the financial challenge they had at the time. And so yeah, so I think that just like we were talking about with the temple, um tithing very much needs to be an individual, um an individual choice, with individual guidance. I will say that I believe that we have kind of come up with stories about tithing. If you pay your tithing, then you’ll always have what you need. My testimony of that principle of that understanding of that principle has, has changed. And I really believe that if I understand that everything is the Lord’s and the Lord has entrusted to me and my family, our stewardship. And if we seek to do what the Lord wants us to do that. Anything that happens to us will be for our good. Right. And so we may have difficult financial times. Um, we might have good financial times but I know that God is not, um, a financial investment vehicle. It’s ii, I don’t any longer think like, oh, pay your tithing because otherwise you might have financial problems. I think that that’s kind of, um, another tradition that gets us to pay our tithing but maybe we’re not even paying it for the right reason because we’re paying it for financial blessings, right? So I think there’s, yeah, I’ll have to, I’ll have to see when I feel free to talk openly and freely about typing in my perspective on typing. But um I can just say that I think it’s a very valid question. And so um oh, there’s another, there’s another question about typing, I guess a couple of those are coming in right now. So let me get to this question. Why is the church only excommunicating those going along with their narrative? I’m not sure. I understand that question. Why is the church only excommunicating those going along with their narrative? Because I don’t think the church does tend to excommunicate people who go along with their narrative. So we’ll try to get back to that question, see if it got written down wrong. And then um let’s see. Are you planning an episode on Bishop Snow? Oh, I just finished Whitney Horn’s book and was appalled at what happened and Brigham supported Snow’s actions. So maybe we should just go ahead and talk about that a little bit right now. Right? Bishop Snow. Um I’m trying to remember off the top of my head if he was in, I used to think he was in Cedar City. I mean, I’m in Saint George, but as I read it more recently, he was either in Provo or maybe Cedar City. If someone remembers, they can remind me. But yeah, Bishop Snow, that is an awful story fits right in with the gruesome things that were happening in early Mormon, Mormon. So um so I don’t know. Um maybe I’ll just talk about it now. I haven’t done the research so I probably won’t do it justice. But from my recollection, from when I have studied this, Bishop Snow had his eye on a young one on a young girl he wanted to marry who had there, there was already a couple established, right? This, this young man and this young woman were fond of each other, I guess from the stories we get, the young man was a little bit wild, maybe not um fully righteous. I have my questions about if that’s true or if that is kind of the lost boys um tendency happening. Oh, he’s not righteous enough because I happen to want to marry that young woman. So I think that’s worth investigating. And um he warned the young man to get out of town, the young man didn’t. And so this is the bloody castration from what I understand. Bishop Snow got a little posse together, chase the young man out into the woods where they castrated him. And um, and the next day at church, Bishop Snow gave a terrible um sermon to the audience and showed them what happened when they disobeyed counsel and proceeded to nail that young man’s um, what they had re removed from him to the wall as a very visceral reminder to the people of um what happened if you disobeyed counsel. And um it goes on from there. So I know I haven’t done that justice. So, yes, it is something that I need to talk about further. I don’t, I haven’t dug in enough that I feel confident that I fully understand all of the implications and what might be credible. What might be less credible? I do think the story itself is credible from what I understand. And the that I mean, I, the horrible part, the whole thing is the horrible part, right? But it goes on from there to, to where Brigham Young was informed about what Bishop Snow was doing. And let me just say a bishop, Bishop Snow did this. This isn’t the only thing he did, right? A bishop who would do this would be a nightmare in a million ways. And I think we do have more information about Bishop Snow. But when it was reported to Brigham Young if I’m recalling correctly, I believe the quote was I feel to sustain him, which meant not only I leave him in his calling, but you know, it sounds like I sustain his actions. And so this is an important story. II I think, you know, I’m hesitant to have it be blown out of proportion to have it be like there were castrations happening all over Utah and people, you know, like, I don’t want it to be too. How can, how can that story possibly be overstated? Like I’m, I’m having this internal argument in my mind. This isn’t the, this is, wasn’t happening everywhere all the time, right? But it did happen and it was allowed to happen. And that tells us a lot about the culture about what was happening in Utah. I’m really excited. I’ll announce now I’m um I have an upcoming interview scheduled with Cheryl and Dan Klute who were um on my podcast a while ago. They are a wonderful couple from the restoration branches who have been involved in research for many, many decades. I will say not just many years, but for decades. And um and I have an interview scheduled with them where they are going to talk to me about many of the stories of Bloody Utah and um you know, Bloody Brigham, Bloody Utah, what happened and people having to escape for their lives and some were successful and some were not So it was, I’ll just say this theocracy is not a good thing. I’m glad we are not living in bureaucracy. I think that early Utah is one of the times that um the rest of the nation had to save, save the saints from themselves. Right? Because there is just this dark spirit, this dark spirit of polygamy. And that’s what I get concerned about and, and you’ll hear me talking about this a bit in the future and some episodes that are coming up, but it seems to follow the same pattern and we see it in our day, someone just called talking about the day bells and we have the Barons and the lafferty and the early church leaders and story after story where there is this dark spirit that comes in, I believe, to destroy the restoration to taint it and take it sideways and sideline it and it seems to go polygamy and then, you know, unrighteous Dominion is a big huge part of it and it’s polygamy and it always seems to descend into bloodiness, blood atonement seems to follow on its heels. I shouldn’t say always, I don’t think that always happens. I don’t think all polygamists get bloody. So forgive me for misspeaking there. It has a tendency all too often to descend to this next level to this next step. And I think it’s very concerning and that’s part of why we need to be sp speaking about these issues because that spirit that comes in is the same spirit. And so, yeah, I think that’s a really good question that we went on. So, let’s see if I have another chat to answer. Um I’m gonna have to look through and find where we are. Ok. Um Oh, this is a good question, Michelle. Do you think same sex unions will exist in the celestial kingdom? Ok. I can, I’ve, I’ve spoken about this to some extent and this again is just such a radioactive topic. And um it’s so funny because, you know, you just take it from all sides. I it’s, it’s I get accused of everything. So um the last thing I want to do is hurt anybody and um make people’s people who have had hard paths. It’s hard to um experience homosexuality in the church. That’s a hard, hard path. The last thing I wanna do is make that harder for anyone is to add any pain onto people who have already experienced pain in this area. So, um so anything I say, I don’t want it to be experienced that way, um I believe to my core in the sanctity of marriage as God established it, I just believe that and, and studying polygamy has increased my testimony of that. Um So that, that is my belief. However, I will say I was given powerful answers about um for me about homosexuality many years ago, long before I knew I had gay Children. And um, and I still believe what the Lord taught me then. It’s been interesting because even as I’ve had gay Children, my views haven’t changed. And I, what I believe and I won’t, I should do a full episode on it at some point. But I guess I just kind of avoided it because it’s, ah, it’s a hard issue. I, um, what I believe is that marriage as established by God is between one man and one woman. And I believe that our gay Children and our gay brothers and sisters are God’s perfect creations who God intentionally sent to earth for us in our day to help us learn more charity. I believe there were people who said here am I send me? And so I believe that my job in this life is to love my fellow man to the very best of my ability. And I’m uncomfortable with questions about condoning and, you know, II, I understand them, but at the same time, I just don’t think that that’s what it’s about because we cannot understand another person’s experience if we haven’t had it and if we don’t share it. And so I, I just believe so strongly in, uh as I have tried my best to navigate this path imperfectly and it’s always a challenge. And I, um I do my best and I, I have come to understand how desperately I need the Lord’s constant guide guidance in these issues so that I can say the correct things, right? And so when I see all of the, when I see people calling me an LGBT advocate as if that, I just, just recently was called like LGBT activist, feminist blah, blah, blah, blah blah as if that’s like this huge insult. And no, I’m absolutely not an activist. But what I am is I hope an advocate for love for all of us being our best selves. And I believe that there will be people of all different experiences and all different um perceptions in Zion together because I believe Zion is a place where we don’t contend and I don’t think not, not contending means that we’re all the same, right? And I don’t, I do think that we tend to put homosexuality in this elevated status of sin where that we can, we can judge like even President U told us, don’t judge people because they sin differently than you do, right? So even if we think that homosexuality is a sin, I’ve made this comparison before. I believe that you know that um there are many things that are sins that are weaknesses if we want to. Uh I have no good words. I hate using the word sin. I hate using the word weakness. We all have different characteristics, right? And so I guarantee you that when I was busy with, with all of my Children homeschooling trying if, if someone who kept I’ve used this example before. So if I’m boring. You forgive me. I’ll go to the call just a minute. But if, um, someone came into my house and they believed the cleanliness was next to Godliness and their house was immaculate. Right. And they saw my messy home, they would absolutely think I was lacking. Right. And their judgment of me would do nothing to help me or to serve me or to bless me. Right. Believe me, I had a struggle with that on my own. So I guess I feel the same way like uh God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance, right? That means that people use that against gay people as if as if that applies to them instead of it applying to all of us. That means none of us are getting into heaven. So I guess if like am I gonna be in heaven if I still struggle to keep my house clean, right? Like all of these like we all fall short, we all miss the mark. We all need the atonement of Jesus Christ. And I am so thankful to know that the spirit is there and the Lord is there to guide people along their path. And my job is to love people. And so that’s what I want to do. And that’s why I don’t tend to speak to this issue very often because I don’t want my testimony of marriage has got established to get in my way of being able to love people who are the people who need my love the most. So that’s the best I can do with that right now. We’ll go ahead and take the next phone call. So John, hello. Thank you for calling.

[1:07:35] John: Oh, hello. Thank you so much for taking my call.

[1:07:38] Michelle: Yes, I’m glad you got through.

[1:07:42] John: Um I just wanted to say um a couple of things real quick, first of all, thank you so much for the uh work that you’ve been doing on this topic and taking it head on. And, um it’s been such a fascinating journey to follow you on um on this topic of polygamy. And, um, and I’m a, I’m a member of the church. I am actually in the process of coming back to the church. I would have been out uh for um a long time. I sort of turned my back on it uh when I was about 1819, right before I was supposed to go on my mission. I had to tell my dad I wasn’t going and that was really tough. Um But I never had any ill feelings towards the church. It wasn’t like a defiant move. It was just more of a, you know, I uh wanted to experience the world outside of the church and lost my faith and everything. And so I’m in the process of coming back. Um And finding your podcast has been very helpful in reconciling some of the history that I think, uh, too many members, um, ignore, um, it’s a part of our history and I think it’s something we need to talk about. Um, and I just wanted, uh, perhaps to get a little advice from you on one thing. I, um, I’m currently in a relationship with a beautiful young woman who is not a member of the church but she’s very, uh, receptive to my beliefs and is interested in what I believe. But the topic of polygamy did come up and uh she, you know, she’s very concerned about that aspect of the history, you know, and um and I, uh you know, my father was a faithful member his whole life and taught me a lot about our history and some of the, you know, not so proud moments of uh the LDS history. And so I was aware of Joseph Smith’s polygamy or at least, you know, what uh you know, his take on it was so we started having a conversation, but I felt, I felt compelled just to ask you how you would uh talk to a non member in your life who is very important to you. Um How you would broach the topic of polygamy and how to, I had a acclimate someone to our history.

[1:10:24] Michelle: OK. So, so let me get a little bit more clarity. So she, she understands the history of polygamy in the church, but she’s concerned is, is her concern that if you’re in the church that you might be ok with polygamy or is she just?

[1:10:40] John: Yeah. So that was one of the, that was one of the issues which, of course I’m not a polygamist but I’m not, um, you know, I’m not an advocate for polygamy. Um It’s something that we don’t practice and I’m proud that we don’t, um, she’s concerned that because this is part of my identity and some, and, and I’m proud of my religion now. And um coming back, she’s concerned that perhaps some of my um she’s concerned that some of the uh church history um might discount the entire uh validity of the religion if that makes sense. So she’s,

[1:11:31] Michelle: she’s wondering how you can be in this religion with this past. Is that part of it? Yeah. OK. Yeah. So that’s, that’s a really interesting question. I do think in terms of like um concerns about the church being polygamist, you know, it’s pretty easy to explain that, you know, the church actually excommunicates polygamist. Yes, we do have a bit of a schizophrenic relationship with polygamy. But for the past, you know, 100 years, 100 plus years polygamists have all been excommunicated from the church. Um And, and President Hinckley has official, well, I guess as officially as it can be because it was on TV, has condemned and disavowed polygamy and said it’s not doctrinal. So I think that we are in perfectly good standing to um to agree with him agree with the president of the church on that issue. And I guess for me that’s an interesting, it, it does your, um, is, is she your girlfriend, is, does she have, um, a religious affiliation? So she,

[1:12:31] John: uh, she doesn’t currently go to church but she was raised Catholic, um, with, with its own history, you know. I don’t want to do a tit for tat, you know.

[1:12:44] Michelle: Yeah. I, I don’t think it’s about tit for tat. I think it’s about recognizing human nature and God’s interaction with humankind, right? Because there is not a single group or organization or institution or country that has been around very long, that doesn’t have its awful stains like America, you know, do we all need to disavow America and leave America because of, well, I mean, there’s current stuff going on that’s considered that’s concerning, but that’s worldwide, but like does the um extremely problematic history of America mean that we need to all say, oh, it’s bad, right? Or can we look at it and go this aspirational brilliance of the founding principles of America are profound and incredible and our goal is to continue to live up to them. And that’s how I feel about the restoration. What um Joseph Smith brought forward in the book of Mormon and in the understanding the true understanding of the nature of God and of God’s desire and willingness to commune with God’s Children, right? Our ability to experience God in these really profound ways is so exquisite and aspirational and profound that even if like we talked about in that first call, I’m gonna keep referring to that. Even if some unhallowed hands tried to um to stop the work from progressing, they’re not able to stop the work of God from progressing because each of us is here and has our own um discernment and our own moral agency to choose to follow God rather than false traditions, right? So I don’t know if that’s um helpful to um to your girlfriend. But I, that’s what I like to focus on is like looking at the book of Mormon and the incredible insights in the book of Mormon and looking at the incredible sacrifices that did go in to the foundation of the church and the beautiful revelations and the understandings we have that are so easy to take for granted, right? And so so I guess I just think the good massively outweighs the bad and there’s nothing without the bad, like even all of us in our families, right? None of us have perfect parents. So what we try to do is recognize the things that were not perfect, that were less than fortunate and try to do better in our own lives and be really thankful for the things that were so positive that maybe we’ll get wrong because we just take them for granted, not recognize them. I, I think that it’s the same story with our church. Um, that at least that’s my approach to it. I don’t know if that’s helpful. Is that what you were asking?

[1:15:26] John: Well, it is, it is, it is helpful. I think that one thing that, um, has also been helpful and she’s very busy. She’s, uh, you know, she just took the bar exam. So, uh, you know, keep her in your prayers that she passes and, uh, becomes a

[1:15:40] Michelle: lawyer. My son’s just about to graduate from law school so we’ll trade prayers.

[1:15:45] John: Oh, yes, yes, for sure. But, uh, but yeah, II, I think that she, um, um, she is open to coming to church with me too, which I think would help uh in, in just showing that uh are, you know, you go to church and we talk about the gospel of Jesus Christ and that’s where the focus should be for us. And, um, and so I hope that, uh, you know, we can move forward on, on what the faith is and what role it plays in our life today. Um And uh, yeah, and I also think that your podcast too, I’ve, I’ve encouraged her to listen to you. And because I think also it’s very important for women to be involved in this conversation too. It’s very difficult for, uh sometimes I feel as a man to, to uh talk about polygamy in a purely sort of historical academic sense and, and not able to empathize in the same way with the, the brave sisters who had to practice this. And, um, and so, um, I’m, I’m very grateful to you and in the work you do. And, uh, I, I hope that she’ll, uh, she’ll take me up on listening to your podcast because I think you’ve done a really great job of putting a very human face on this issue, which we desperately need in the church. So, thank you.

[1:17:11] Michelle: Thank you. Thank you and good luck on your continued courtship and on your journey back to the church, that is, it’s kind of so refreshing to hear people coming back instead of going the other direction. So, thank you. I appreciate the call, John. So should I take another? Yeah, thank you. So, OK, I have a question from, oh Rick Hansen. So Rick, um my, we had talked about him coming on the podcast. So I’ll be curious to see what he does. I’m not welcome on his podcast because he will not Brook Polygamy deniers, but we actually are friends that have a good relationship, but I’ve told him that he’s welcome to come on my podcast just the same. But let’s see. I’m sure he has a great question here because he is a smart guy. Let’s see. What are your thoughts on the antiquity and authenticity of the book of Abraham, including the controversial doctrines of plurality of gods and priesthood restrictions in the book of Abraham. So um this, I I hate to have to sort of, um I’m not, I’m not punting, but just, I have not dug into the book of Abraham adequately to feel like I have sort of the well grounding understanding of it that I have done of, for example, polygamy. So I’m always a little bit hesitant. I will say that in my own life and my own studies, I’ve had experiences with the book of Abraham, just like with the book of Moses, I’ve had some profound insights. I’ve also had some things that seem a little strange. Right. And I think it is interesting to know about the papyri and the funerary text and all of those questions. And yes, I, I mean, I’m, I guess what I would say is I am aware of the issues, I’m aware of the problems, but I haven’t um become familiar with them to the point that I would feel confident, expressing a very well informed perspective. For me. It’s not something that I’m um it sounds wrong to put it, put things on the shelf because I don’t believe in putting things on the shelf. It’s something that I’m willing to be a little bit patient about until I have the time and the focus to dig into it to the extent that I feel I would need to. And um and as I have um gone through all of these other issues because, you know, I just so everyone knows I have gone on my faith journey. I have been at the point of thinking that do I need to just throw it all out because it’s all fake. And, you know, like when I got down to my bare bones of what do I absolutely know it to be true. When I got down to pretty much God is good. God exists and God is good. That’s I got down to about there. That was the one thing I knew because I had experienced God too much to doubt that. And then I’ve been rebuilding from there. And for me, the more I’ve studied and delved into things, the more it has built my gratitude for the restoration and built my faith. And I do have just, I love the book of Mormon, right? And I, and I love um the Scriptures and I, I most of all love the ideas of the spirit of God being alive in all of our lives. And that’s what I’ve experienced. And I do love the idea of eternal families and um the way that I understand it and knowing that Joseph had a revelation on eternal marriage is um that, that is not that that’s part of it was included in 132 but it’s not 132. So I, I apologize. I will have to um wait to speak more helpfully on my opinions on the book of Abraham until I have delved into them more. I guess at this point. It’s, again, it’s not that I’m keeping it on the shelf. It’s just that I can only do so much at one time. Right. Isn’t that true for all of us? And, um, and so I, so I cannot say for certain one way or the other, I have had also periods in my life where I kind of went with the not fully pro fully fallen prophet model, but maybe the David Whitmer model where Joseph was supposed to um um translate the book of woman. But that was all he was supposed to do and he started messing things up from there. I’ve, you know, really, um I, I guess I’ve kind of had all of these models for different periods and, and tried to find truth where I could. And um so this is one that I haven’t fully answered for myself, any of those things could be the case. It could be. I, I don’t want to offend anyone. Just, I guess what I’m saying is, I don’t know the answers yet and I’m will willing to follow where the evidence leads me and where the spirit leads me. If, if Joseph um was totally mistaken about what these scrolls were and shouldn’t have bought them and, and, you know, created an embarrassment for himself. Maybe that’s, maybe that’s what the story is. Um I’ve heard some people say, and to me, I can just like, well, some people have said that they don’t believe that Joseph was actually had any involvement in the book of Abraham. I’m with that argument lands from right now about how, um, the idea that Joseph was never a polygamist used to land for me, like, oh, you know, I guess, I think of it in the same way as, like, I wonder if that’s really based in strong evidence or just in kind of like some evidence and really wanting it to be true. right? And that’s kind of what I used to think about um about polygamy deniers before I became one before I converted. So, um so I’m, you know, that might be the case. It may be that we’re actually wrong about the history and um you know, there and there’s something else that Joseph was looking at or had or, you know, the idea that it was just a um what is it? I can’t think of the term some of you who are more familiar with it will but, but the the scrolls he had were just a conduit to be able to receive revelation. So I, that’s anyway, Rick, you’re smarter than I am on that topic. I apologize. I can’t answer it yet. So OK, let’s go to our next question. It says, why don’t we just follow the book of Mormon since it contains the fullness of the gospel, especially the message of Jesus when he ended the old law and gave us the new. Oh, and so I’m guessing that this person has some specific ideas of what they um consider to be um the fullness of the book of Mormon that we would follow. And I think that everyone is free to do that. I, I do think, I think it’s interesting that, oh, I won’t remember off the top of my head. I’ll have to look it up. Someone can tell me where in the book of Mormon, it says it contains much of the gos much of my gospel is what it says. And I think that’s really interesting where it says in one place, it contains much of my gospel and then it also contains the fullness of the gospel, right? So there are some interesting things there. And I do think that um each of us following the book of Mormon, different things would stand out at us, different things would be prioritized, right? So I understand the need for there to be a structure and that there’s always going to be disagreement in that. I, that’s, that’s one thing I just think it’s very easy to criticize something and it’s very difficult to build something and to maintain something, it’s much easier, it’s easier to tear things apart than it is to build and maintain them. And so, so I don’t know what it would look like with everybody independently. Um following the book of Mormon without any kind of a structure we are supposed to gather together and meet together, right? And, and So we all like something grows out of that and I don’t know what it looks like. So that’s the best I can do is to say, I hope that we actually each are doing that. I hope we are following the book of Mormon to the best of our ability. And um I happen to personally believe I can follow the book of Mormon and be in the church and in and, and join in the church. I feel like it makes my journey um more effective and better. I like gathering and, and being inspired by other people’s insights in the book of Mormon. I know we don’t always do that perfectly in our lessons, but sometimes we do it so great. And so that’s the best answer I have for that. So should I keep going on with questions? OK. So let’s see. This next one is how can the Brigham LDS faction lay claim to any, any higher degree of legitimacy than any of the other splinter groups that formed after Joseph’s murder? I think that is a fantastic question. I have to say as soon as I started engaging with people from other, um should we call them Mormon denominations? I don’t, they don’t call themselves Mormons. But I think John Hayek, when the first time he’s great and I had him on the show and I hope he’ll come on the show again the first time I talked to him. And um and you know, I kind of realized, I don’t know anything about Jacob String and the string nights and then, you know, I, I mean, of course, knew some, something about the R LDS church, the community of Christ but, but um collaborating with people in the restoration branches and in the R the RLD, I’m the community of Christ. I don’t know that they hold on to that um promise of the one true church. The one with which I am well pleased verse like the other branches do. But I do think that that’s a really interesting question and I tend to think you’re right, like the way I look at it now is that God scattered seeds, right? Seeds of the restoration and that everybody has their part and it um comes back together like, like we bring them, we’re, we’re in the process of bringing them all back together now, which I think is beautiful. I have loved engaging with people in these different branches of the restoration. And I have thought it’s fascinating to see how everyone clings to that scripture. Also, all of every single FFL, every single F LDS break off also grabs like now we’re the one true and I’m the new prophet and the only, right and the one and only. And so, so I think it’s an interesting um dynamic that we all tend to do. And I, I for myself at this point, I’m interpreting that scripture to just be like when I, when we are being led by God, then we are the true and living church. Right. I don’t know. At this point I haven’t made complete peace with the one and only idea that doesn’t resonate with me. Well, and I don’t know exactly what God meant by it and, or what Joseph Smith meant by it. So, I kind of set that aside for myself right now as I try to figure it out and just see God’s fingerprint everywhere in every branch of the restoration. So, oh, it looks like we have. Um But oh, we have a super chat. Let’s see. Did that come in? Let me scroll down. Oh, yes. Thank you. Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much. And I, I have seen, I’ll call him Photo Chi Chico, I think, and I have seen your comments and thank you so much for your input into this podcast and make your many great comments. He says this is for your website. And this time I think Joseph Smith did practice polygamy and I appreciate your, at this time. I think Joseph Smith did practice polygamy and I appreciate research. Thank you so much for that donation. I appreciate it so much. And if I ever don’t, I’m not quick to say thank you. Please know that I do appreciate everyone who donates and contributes to this and keep, keep going, keep studying and we’ll see what, where you go from there. So, ok, it looks like we do have Anne on the phone. Hello, Ann.

[1:27:27] Anne: Yeah. Hi. Hi, Michelle. This is Anne.

[1:27:31] Michelle: Yes. Thank you for calling. Yes, I sure can. Yeah.

[1:27:34] Anne: Um, I wanted to tell you a little quick story of what happened to me. Um, I have always, I’ve been, I was born in the church. I’m polygamous ancestors. I’m the six of seven girls who all believe that polygamy was just holy and wonderful. And so did my parents. I’m 73 years old. And from the time I was 14 years old, I could not stand it. I had fights with my family over it. And I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet with all my heart. And I could not understand how he could know God and not know that polygamy was evil. I could not grapple with it one time I read section 132 and was hysterical enough that I had to have a priesthood blessing. And I went ahead and read it again after the blessing. I was in my bedroom reading it crying and calling out to God. Are you this way that this 132 talks about how could Joseph Smith have said it? I had never thought that he didn’t write it. And so a, a knock came at my door and I went to answer the door and my son said, here, mom, somebody handed this to me and it was a pamphlet and with big bold yellow letters, it said there will be no polygamy in the celestial peut. It came to my door at the time I was reading and crying. This was years ago and I’ve put it on this stuff. Since then, I had another time when I was wanting to know the answer and then I went online and I was looking at all the youtube channels and your face came up and the spirit said, here’s your answer. And I said, what? After 60 years of praying to know the answer? Now, I’ve got it. Yep. Here’s your answer. And with your case, and I just wanna know if you’re ever somewhere I’m going to come and give you a big hug because you kept my testimony strong of Joseph Smith and to find out that he did not write 132. I’ve read all those scriptures, I’ve gone and studied all your podcasts. I know of all my heart that Joseph Smith revealed the restoration of the gospel and that Satan had to get his way in to try to destroy the church with polygamy.

[1:30:20] Michelle: And, and I cannot thank you enough for calling to tell me that those are incredible. I just

[1:30:26] Anne: wanted you to know that that happened to me. 60 years of praying. 60 years, I pray and pray and pray. And then the Lord said, here’s your answer. I’m like, what, after 60 years, you’ve got my answer. Yeah. Listen to her. OK? Oh my goodness.

[1:30:41] Michelle: Can you believe? No, that

[1:30:43] Anne: was so like Ann Here is your answer.

[1:30:47] Michelle: That is amazing. Thank you so much. And I have to say, I’m always amazed when I hear people who had so much more discernment than I had you. As a 14 year old saw the truth of this and knew that it was not, that it was not ok that this is not who God was. And so I think I um I just want to thank you for seeking for 60 years and staying in the church and staying in the patience as I was just talking with the book of Abraham, a willingness to be patient until the answers come with a confidence, knowing the answers will come. Thank you for exemplifying that for all of us. That is a

[1:31:22] Anne: gorgeous story. Thank you. Uh If you’re ever somewhere and I can give you a hug. I’m just dying to say thank you so much and I know that what you’ve been teaching is true. I just know it with every uh uh as much as I know God lived. God has finally answered my prayer after 60 years. Thank you.

[1:31:44] Michelle: Thank you, Ann. Thank you. Oh, I love you too. Thank you. OK. All right.

[1:31:50] Anne: Good bye bye.

[1:31:52] Michelle: OK. Thank oh OK. Pull myself together. That’s um I just want you guys all to know. I know that sometimes um people accuse me of having like followers or a f you know, and I just, I just want to say that is not true. Um I feel incredibly privileged that the Lord has given me this opportunity. I spent years, decades of my mothering knowing there were things that was supposed to be doing, not knowing what it was. Just knowing I was supposed to be using my voice and my talent and my, the way my brain works to, to do something for God. And I didn’t know what it was and I kept being told have another baby. You know, I would always pray. What am I? What do you want me to do? God? Because it, it was actually painful to know I was supposed to be doing something and to not be doing it. And um the Lord just kept telling me not yet, not yet. And I kept having the answer to have another baby baby. And um until finally, you know, like I feel like the elastic band was pulled so tight for so many years waiting to know what it was. I was supposed to be doing that now that um I’ve been given that opportunity. I’m sorry, I get a little tearful because it came at a high price, right? Like it’s been a um some some challenges to enable me to be able to do this. But um I know that the Lord has given me this opportunity, but I know that people who are resonating with this with this message, it’s not about me. It’s about the Lord, it’s about the Lord speaking to people’s hearts. And I just get to be fortunate enough to be one of the voices um engaged in that process. And so II, I wanna thank you Anne and thank you for everybody else who is willing to hear this message from God, even though I happen to be the one saying it right now. Right? That’s so anyway, so I, so everyone who wants to think I have followers. No, I don’t, I just get, I just get to say some things that the Lord has taught me and given me the opportunity to say and people who are resonating them are following God because I’m not leaving anybody anywhere. So thank you Ann for um praying for 60 years and for sharing that story with us. So OK, I have a chat from Gary Arnell, um who Gary I’ve recently talked to him about coming on the podcast. I love his story and I love his spirit and the way that he engages is he’s always a good example to me. So he said, I know you’ve done two episodes already on the Novo expositor. Thank you. Have I only done two? I thought I’ve done three so far. I think I’ve done three. So I’ll check someone can let us know um maybe you know, better than I do. Could you summarize your take on why it contains language so similar to Doctrine covenants? 132. Ok, great question. And yes, and I’m so excited to do part four. It was part, I, I thought it was part four. Is it? Yeah, I think so. If I’m wrong I’ll correct it later. But um I, I was so excited to do part four of the on the expositor when I was also wanting to do the temple episodes and a lot of people were like, do the temple, do the temple. So I set the expositor um aside and I have so much more information that I’m just dying to get out there. And so, um so I’ll tell you really quickly, this is what I strongly believe after having searched through it a lot. And um I think I did talk about this quite a bit in my, in, in part number three, maybe you’ll have to watch all three parts and see. And now that we have the transcript, you can just search it and see which part it did. But um or as soon as all of those transcripts are ready, but I think there is a lot of strong evidence that there were fake revelations going around. We know for a fact that, well, I, I shouldn’t, I know for a fact, not that everyone agrees on this, but I don’t know that everyone’s looked into all of the evidence sufficiently. Um The apostles and the el I should say the elders, the elders, whoever they were, were going around claiming that Joseph had had this revelation, right? Long before they claim that 132 was even written down. They were claiming these revelations. Now keep in mind we do have all of that evidence in actual journals and letters. And um it’s um more than that in England, right? In England. When um Hebrew C Kimball and Brigham Young and William Clayton were in England, they’ve all left us tons of records which would should and would exist if Joseph had been involved. Right? So we know that all of this predating, even when they claim that Joseph started it or when Joseph taught any of them. And so, um so they were going around making these claims, which is why Joseph and Hyrum and Emma particularly Joseph and Hyrum had to constantly, almost daily say we are not saying this. We are not doing this. We are not telling anybody to do this. And if anybody ever tells you to do this, call them a liar, kick them out. They’re not of us no matter if it’s an apostle, a prophet God. If an angel comes down and tells you this, they are lying to you, they are false. And that’s what, so that’s how we have the evidence to know for a fact. And well, and there’s more to it than that, but we know that Joseph and Hiram were constantly fighting against this and people were constantly claiming no, Joseph and Hiram said this, we know that William Bennett was doing that right? All of the women that came and testified, Catherine, oh, I won’t remember her name right now, but that testified about Chauncey Higby and Francis Higby. And that they were saying Joseph said that I can do this. Joseph said this is what it is. They were all saying, Joseph said, Joseph said right. And so I think it is not. Well, well, so a couple of other things that people just fail to recognize William Law himself, who was the one who created the novel Expositor. And he and his wife are two of the test. Um The two who wrote the affidavits, he himself said the document he saw was only three pages long. I think he was lying about Hiram bringing him a, a um document on, on um polygamy. We do know, I think that the evidence is solid to show that Joseph Smith did receive a revelation on eternal marriage. And I’ve spoken about this before he taught about it on July 16th 1843 4 days after he supposedly had the um polygamy revelation or, or had it written down. And I, I, so the fact that he taught it then makes me think that it was around that time, he could have received it because that’s the first time I’ve seen him teaching about being married in view of eternity. And that he um was reading about Luke chapter 20. I’m, I’m gonna get it wrong. But about when the sad just were challenging him about, um, if, you know, if a woman had seven husbands and, um, and somehow that got turned into polygamy, that’s weird polygyny where a man has to have seven wives, right? So we have him teaching plural, I uh not plural. We have him teaching. So, um eternal marriage that day. And then Hiram, we have him teaching eternal marriage on April 8th, 1844 at the, you know, the magical disappearing Hyrum speech where the JSP the Joseph Smith papers now has only the edited version, not the Thomas Bullock version of um notes. And then we have in the June 8th and 10th City Council meet minutes, we have Joseph and Hyrum both again, affirming exactly what they taught in both of those circumstances. It, it, it goes together perfectly. So there was, I believe this um revelation, James Whitehead who was Joseph Scribe, who did not come west with the saints, but who testified in the temple lot trial said that the revelation that he saw in winter quarters, he saw the true love revelation on eternal marriage. He said, and he said it was three pages long about three pages long. And we also know that William Law claims that whatever revelation he saw that he claimed to see was three pages long. So I think it’s possible. Um Jeremy and Hope and I have talked about this quite a bit and batted forth, back and forth ideas. I think it’s possible that Hyrum was maybe showing this revelation on eternal marriage. And so maybe that’s how his name got that got um, mixed up with it because everyone was claiming he was showing them the revelation. I don’t know. I’m just trying to come up with possibilities at this point. What I do strongly believe is that we had, we know, well, I, I feel like I can say, I know there is strong enough evidence to say that at this point, it should be factual that there was this true, this true revelation from Joseph Smith on eternal marriage. And then I happened to think there were some fraudulent revelations that either people either said they existed. So, I mean, people were saying they existed. So I think it’s possible that they did exist. And if you look at section 132 and if you look at the Novo Expositor, first of all, things from the novel Expositor and this is, this is part of what I’ll get into, in part for the affidavits, the claim that Hiram read it to the City Council, which I’m sorry, should be laughable for everybody that like it’s so that’s such a bad claim and yet it’s universally accepted. So we’ll go into that a little bit more and the supposed similarities between um these affidavits and Section 132 I think a couple of things that are really important to recognize that we’ll get into are the motives that Austin tells had that um, the laws had and also what’s even more important than, than what is written is what is not written, what they failed to say. So that’s all very, um, very telling, very informative and very important to get into. And so the similarities I, I’ll, I’ll hurry and finish this. I just have so much said, I’m sad that I haven’t done this episode yet, but the similarities are really particular. Nothing from the affidavits applies to anything that comes from the true revelation, any of those verses that are actually about eternal marriage that are all universally monogamous, right? We can go through and point out what is likely true and what is false and anything they say only aligns with the false parts. So it’s like, yeah, there were fake polygamy revelations going around. So what? And they got conglomerated into 132. Exactly. That’s exactly what we believe happened. It makes perfect sense, right? And so that story works out perfectly and explains all of this evidence far better than any other explanation does at the time. So I’ll get into those details a little more. It’s also good to recognize that the um the the claims that are made in the Novo expositor are actually like whatever, whatever revelation they may or may not have seen or that was going around um is everything was changed and flipped on its head, right? And so the, the parallels are, I think less interesting than the differences and I, I, I’m excited to get into that more. So, thanks for that great question, Gary. And then, ok, we have Andrew on the phone. Hello, Andrew. Thank you for calling.

[1:42:06] Andrew: Oh, hey, how’s it going? Good. How are you? It’s funny. It’s a little bit off. It’s, it’s a little bit off. I’m watching the youtube and a few seconds behind. So I was kind of surprised to hear you like that. But anyway, uh first off, congrats on uh all the subscribers so quickly, I’ve watched the channel grow from 7000 to almost 17,000. So that’s awesome. Thank you. Yes.

[1:42:26] Michelle: If everyone hasn’t subscribed, please go ahead and subscribe because it really does help us be taken more seriously. So, thank you.

[1:42:33] Andrew: Yeah. And I admire the passion. I’ve been a lifelong member myself. You know, a lot more than I do. I haven’t gotten through all your videos yet and I’m just uh fascinated and impressed with what you’ve been able to find. I didn’t even know about section 101. But here’s just a, just one question. And uh what would it take for you or what findings or series of findings would it take to say? Wow. I think Joseph Smith really was a polygamist. I’ve asked the same thing the opposite way to uh I got like a message I didn’t get back to, but Brian Hills what would it take for Brian Hills to think that Joseph Smith wasn’t a polygamist. I’m just kind of turning it around. What would it take for you to be like? Hm. Hey, looks like the research is a little bit wrong. He was indeed a polygamist.

[1:43:17] Michelle: Oh, that’s a great question. So I, I can answer it pretty easily. First of all, I always believe Joseph was a polygamist. Right. That’s where, that’s my come from. That’s what I believe forever. And so, so it took evidence to shift my perspective and I, and we both e it took a lot of evidence and to shift my perspective. And then it took us some profound spiritual experiences to make me speak out against it out about it because that was a hard step to take. Um I will say this if there were a child game over, right? We would know at the very least infidelity or full blow polygamy, however you interpret it. Um So that would be done if there were a letter um from Joseph to one of his wives. Um That, that was not uh like we have the Whitney revelation, which is a known forgery. We have like we have several things that claim to be something and we’ve revealed, we’ve shown them all to be forgery. So for me, this point, it’s like everything that I thought existed has actually gone. I I thought this was evidence of Joseph’s polygamy, but it’s become evidence of this conspiracy. Right. I know they call it a conspiracy theorist, but it’s a conspiracy. Either way. Either they were either Joseph and everyone was lying or Brigham and everyone was lying. Right. It’s the same thing either way. So, so at this point, um, II, I don’t know what more information is out there. What more we could find if there were a child game over done. Yes, Joseph was, Joseph was not faithful to Emma, right? And then yeah, any contemporaneous evidence that is um not, not more effectively explained as a later fraudulent claim or a misrepresentation, the way that they misrepresent, for example and explain away Jacob 230 you know, like so, so it would actually be pretty easy to show that Joseph was a polygamist. If there were any actual evidence for it, I will say that things what they actually used to base this on like um John Bennett’s claims, that’s not good evidence. The, the um the fact that the um ceilings had to be redone in 1846. And I will say I’m, I’m someone asked earlier about ceilings. That’s been an interesting journey because I’ve been looking for those ceiling records. I thought I had seen it, but I’d only seen the Navoo Endowment records and I um the actual um original ceiling records. I don’t think those are available for us to see the, the proxy ceilings where they had to seal Joseph to his wives after his death, the founder of the rest, I mean, the, you know, the dispensation head who restored all of the keys didn’t have the keys to do his own ceilings. He had to rely on proxy work. How does that make any sense at all? Right. And I, I am going to be doing an episode coming forward on the wives and the ceilings because it’s fascinating to get into. So, yeah, so pretty much anything that were actual evidence would convince me if the problem is there just isn’t any and the more I, the more I’ve looked into it, the more I’ve seen that there just isn’t any. And so it’d be pretty easy to convince me if there were evidence. II, I will, you know, at this point, it would be a little bit tougher just because I’ve seen so much fraud that I’d be like, ok, what is this? Really? Let’s look and see. I’d be a little suspicious of it at this point. But if it showed to be valid evidence, this truly is Joseph Smith’s DNA. This is Joseph Smith’s child. I’d be like, ok, weird. Let’s re figure that, you know. So, is that a good answer? Does that answer your question?

[1:46:39] Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. And I admire your courage to go against mainstream scholarship, mainstream at this point anyhow, even in the church. And I, I really, really hope it’ll be taken. Well, I think it should be taken well, but I also believe the church is as an active member myself. I also believe the church is unjustly silence members with dissenting opinions even if they were right. So I hope that won’t be the case in the future as you grow in fame and not, well, not fame but uh popularity, I guess with extra subscribers. So.

[1:47:07] Michelle: Well, I I appreciate that so too. Thank you. Thank you so much and thank you for the call. I appreciate it. So, are we back at the chat? Ok, let’s see. So, um where are we? Ok. I have a couple of questions about what are my thoughts on different church practices? I guess we could call them, someone’s asking about baptism for the dead and someone’s asking about the word of wisdom. And so um let’s see, can I give some quick answers to those? I tend, I tend to be a long talker. I have a lot to say on every topic if you haven’t noticed. So I thought a lot about baptisms for the dead. Um I have my own personal questions and I’m, I’m sometimes I have to let you know like I just ask questions and think about them and study them out until I get answers. So when I tell you a question, I’m thinking about it doesn’t mean I’m throwing something out or that I’m claiming it’s wrong. I just, I haven’t yet solved that for myself. If that makes sense or the Lord hasn’t given me insight into it. So, baptism for the dead is sort of in that category because I mean, it absolutely was taught by Joseph. No question about that. So, you know, um, but it doesn’t fully make sense to me at this point, depending on what baptism is, I guess, because it seems to me as I’m thinking about it now that baptism is sort of an ordinance for the flesh, right? It’s, it’s not so much to fulfill some my understanding right now, as I think about it again, I need to keep saying that I don’t, I don’t know if baptism is like a check that celestial box or if it’s a gift to us, an opportunity for us in this earth to help us um under like connect more to the divine, right? That it’s a physical ordinance that we do in our physical body. And, and so it seems like it should be something that is for us in this earth. And when, if we’re not existing in this earth, do we need it? I guess is my question. And I know that that Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. But I still don’t, I’m not convinced that like I’m, I’m wondering if there could be some idea that it’s sort of um kind of that Catholic or Protestant idea that anyone, any child that’s unbaptized is in hell or, you know, so I, I need to study it out more and people might be going crazy because they know way more about this than I do or they have had more answers or better answers or different answers. So I’m just telling you where I’m in the journey and I’m sure that anyone who thinks I’m completely wrong will let me know. So, so feel free to do so. But, um, I do believe that there are, I mean, I’m totally, um, aware that there are things I don’t yet understand about it and I guess that’s what I say. There are things I don’t yet understand about it. I haven’t made sense of it for myself about how it fits in or why it would be necessary. And, and it also did introduce a lot of um confusion into the church, you know, that they had to redo it because they weren’t keeping records, right? And everyone was, I, I can see the possibility that it grew out of that time because there was so much death. So many people had lost so many loved ones that they um and if they believed baptism was you, you know, necessary for them after they had died. II, I can see different possibilities just like I said before with the book of Abraham. I like, I don’t know yet. I haven’t settled that one for myself. So, so I um that’s still in the like to be dealt with category, I’ll figure it out at some point or the Lord will let me know what I need to know about it. Um So what are your thoughts on the word of wisdom? Oh, that’s an interesting one. I happen to like section Oh my gosh, my brain just died. Is it section 86? 89? Thank you. I have an ex bishop sitting here with an ex bishop, a past bishop, a previous bishop sitting here with me who can tell me exactly what section it is. And um I think that um I like section 89 II, I love reading it. I like that it’s given as a um why am I drawing a blank? Um It’s basically like good advice, not a commandment, right? Whatever the word is given by way of, yes, a principle with the promise, see, push ups are really useful. Thank you. But um and so so I like reading it. I think it my, my perspective on it. This is how I’ve kind of thought about it in the past and I haven’t thought about it recently enough to know this is if this is exactly how I think about it now. But that um if we are God’s instruments, if we are instruments in God’s hands, then it’s useful for God to keep us sharpened, right? To help us be as useful as possible for as, as effectively as possible for as long as possible. And if God is telling us, hey, this is how you can live your most helpful life that brings you. Um I, I think that physical health is also often connected with spiritual health. You know, I think that eating things that aren’t good for us can get, get us fuzzy both physically and spiritually as well as emotionally. You know, we’re all so our bodies are so connected to our spirits and to our minds. And um and so I tend to think that there is a lot of value in asking, I guess the main core that I love about it is the principle that God cares how we take care of ourselves. And that God is willing to um reveal to us how to take care of ourselves. I know that I have received some answers um about how I eat that and, and I’ve been empowered to make some really difficult changes. Um several years ago in the way that I eat, I was massive sugar addict my entire life. I’ve always been massively into food storage and I always made sure that I had plenty of sugar and plenty of chocolate chips because if, if I couldn’t have chocolate chips, chocolate chip cookies, the world was ended anyway and it did nothing else matters. That’s how addicted I’ve always been. So, so um it’s been a big change for me, but I can say, um it has affected me in every avenue of my life, physical and also spiritual. And so so I do think that um and I really have been led by the Lord and how I should eat, how I should approach food. I, I’m still working on how I should sleep. That’s a struggle for me. I’m not a good sleeper and I’m always struggling with that. But so I guess that’s my opinion of it is that we each have the opportunity to understand the principle taught to us in the word of wisdom is to trust God to direct us how to best take care of our, of ourselves. And then yes, of course, I know that it was never meant to be a commandment, right? So again, we get our false traditions and I, in my opinion, our traditions that get handed down to us and get ossified and become regimented rules. And I think that that’s somewhat unfortunate, especially knowing, you know, we had past leaders of the church that like that hurts people’s testimonies. I, we’ve seen the um what were the, the missionary videos they made? And the missionary just was like embarrassed himself by saying, saying that Jesus drank grape juice, not wine and turned the water into grape juice, not wine, right? Like we just get ourselves into weird problems when we make rules that don’t need to be rules. But since I am an active believing member of the church, I keep the word of wisdom as it is currently defined. So that’s, that’s my feeling on that. So did we have a call or am I still doing? Ok, let’s see, I keep seeing, I, I’m getting mixed signals from my, um, let’s see what episode has been the most fun. What episode has been the most spiritual? Oh, I don’t know that I can remember all. What is it? 100 7 off the top of my head. I can tell some that have really stood out to me. Um The episode on Emma was life changing for me that um that was a profound one I loved doing the episode on Emma. That is, that is the episode where I learned that Joseph was not a polygamist. Um And I learned more things about Emma and um yeah, had some experiences. So I love that one. I um let’s see what I’ve had so many that are so fun. Um So that’s a great question. I’m gonna have to think about it a little bit more. But um I can tell you some that weren’t the best, but maybe I’ll save that. I’ve had. I, I, and I have so many interviews that I wish I could go back and do over now that I know a lot more and I have hopefully improved my interviewing style. I’m sure I’m still not perfect and, you know, but um but in general, I have a lot of episodes that I’m like, oh, I like that one. I like that one. I like that one and I’ve mostly gotten over the like feminine problem of being able to see myself on camera without cringing. So that’s good guys. Do a podcast, do 100 2 hour episodes and you’ll get a little bit better about seeing yourself on camera. Ok. It looks like we have a phone call and it’s Andy. Is that right? Hello, Andy.

[1:55:20] Andy: Hi, Michelle, how are you doing? Good. How

[1:55:22] Michelle: are you?

[1:55:24] Andy: Good. Thank you.

[1:55:29] Michelle: Go ahead. What can, what can I talk to you about? Yep, I’m here.

[1:55:32] Andy: Oh,

[1:55:33] Andy: so I, I had a comment and that is that, you know, when I was young, I always thought I was gonna meet one woman and get married and get sealed in the temple and everything was gonna be wonderful. But here I am, uh I am sealed the three women. Uh my, my first wife and I were divorced, my second wife died of cancer and now I’m married again and I always just took for granted that that was not going to be a problem that, uh I, I guess I kind of believed the, um I believe the thread of, of that, that the total marriage was just an eternal thing. But my current wife and I have been doing a lot of studying together. She listens to your channel and we’ve been doing a lot of studying together and as I have actually pondered this as I’ve actually taken the time to ponder it and just think about it and to dive into it and to pray about it. I, I have come to the conclusion that I do not believe that plural marriage is a thing. I just, just the common sense of it. Just the, just the heart of the matter. It just doesn’t, it’s not something I want, I don’t want to be sealed to three women eternally. I don’t want it. And yet here I am sealed to three women. It, it just doesn’t ring true to me in my, in my heart. You know, as I, as my wife and I are trying to uh establish Zion in our own home, Zion is one heart and one mind, not one heart and not that three hearts and three minds. It’s one man and one woman. It’s, it’s always about oneness and so I, I just have come now I’m gonna be honest with you, I don’t agree with everything you say, but I just, but and I don’t agree with everything you say, especially about uh different topics. But on this topic just coming from me as a man who sealed to three women, it just doesn’t feel right. It doesn’t sound right. It doesn’t smell right. It doesn’t taste right to me. I am trying to build Zion with one woman, one heart and one mind forever. And I just just don’t feel that uh and, and I, and I reserve the right to be wrong, but I just don’t feel that three women and one man is just right and I don’t think it’s righteous I don’t think it’s holiness. I don’t want to believe in a God who’s got multiple wives. It’s, it’s, that’s my thought that that’s what I want to share with

[1:58:12] Michelle: you. Thank you so much. That is profound coming from you, from your perspective, that takes immense humility and clarity to say, even though this is my situation, this is what I believe. And I think, I think it’s interesting because like on the other side of things we’re always just taught just trust, trust God, right? And I do think there’s truth to that when it in the, in the way that you’re talking about it. And like, ok, I’m in this situation and yet I have learned this truth. So I’m just gonna trust God that it’s gonna work out somehow, just like women in your position do, right? Who have been married to multiple men. And so I really appreciate you sharing that and having just the clarity and humility to be, be willing both to come to that conclusion and to call and tell us that. So, thank you so much. I really appreciate it, Andy. All right. Thank you. Bye. So we’ll go to now Patricia. Um Have you ever considered that the daughters of Zion talked about in Second I 13 are the different branches of the restoration. Ok. Apparently I’m gonna be doing some reading in Second Nephi 13 to um to, I guess, oh, are we talking about, is this sec? Is this, um, Isaiah 41. Yeah, I think isn’t second Nephi 13 1 the same. I, I could look that up really quickly. So, our different branches of the restoration. That’s a really interesting thought. The seven women that take hold of one man as I’m assuming what that is talking about. Um, I haven’t thought about that at this point yet. Um That’s interesting. I will think about it. I’ve usually generally connected it more with the seven churches that are spoken of in um Revelation, the Book of Revelation. So, um, so yeah, that’ll, that’ll be something that I will consider further and you know, if you have more insights of that on that, feel free to um to send those in. And so, oh, it looks like we have another call before I take another chat and it looks like we have Braden on. Is that right? I guess we’re just taking one second to get it set up. So, while we’re getting that, I guess the phone’s being a little funny. So let me keep going with another chat. Are we ready? Ok, Braden. Hello, Braden. Are you still there? Oh, it sounds like maybe we lost him. So, ok, I’ll go ahead to this next chat. We’ll see if we can get him back. So, um let’s see what this question is to be sent, greeting, not by commandment. Oh, someone is sending, somebody is sending me um the word of wisdom. Thank you. I appreciate that. So, here is a question. Oh Michael Ellis, he and I have gone back and forth for many years. He was actually in my um initial polygamy discussion group. Clear back in 2016, I think it’s 2015, 2016. So he said if poly polygyny, he likes to say polygyny is, if polygyny is an abomination, who would God command um who would God command the Hagar to live in and an abomination? So I think we might have some typos as that came through to me. So let’s see. Um So I guess the question is if poly polygyny, that’s so, so just to get our term straight, polygamy is the broad umbrella term, right? For anyone who isn’t familiar with this of multiple, like either men being married to multiple women or multiple women being married to, to um one moment being married to a multiple men. I think my brain is starting to go. We probably should start start getting ready to wrap up. But oh, I want to thank um M Sandberg for the Super Chat. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Um That means a lot. And so anyway, so we have polygamy. That’s the broad umbrella turn, right? And we have polyamory, that’s a woman with several husbands and we have polygyny and that’s a man with several wives. So I think that Michael has asked this question before and I think he’s asking that um because God told Hagar to go back. And so therefore, polygamy must be of God. That’s not a, um, that’s not at all an argument that I find to be compelling because God often can give us counsel. That’s the best for us to do in our circumstances. Right. And that’s what I believe was most likely the situation with Hagar, that was the best option for her in the circumstances that she was in. And I think that with all of the massive evidence that there is of God’s only commanding monogamy, I think that that’s a pretty weak, um, argument, argument in, um, to try to, to try to object to that. So anyway, I’m sure I could do better with that answer at another time when my brain isn’t so frightened when I didn’t just get thrown completely off course by some psycho out there. But who called in. But, um, anyway, I’m Michael. I’m sure we will continue to go to go back and forth on some of these issues. So, oh, we have Braden calling back. Ok. Hello, Braden.

[2:03:00] Brayden: Hi Michelle. Thank you for taking my call. Yes,

[2:03:03] Michelle: thank you.

[2:03:06] Brayden: Uh Well, I

[2:03:06] Brayden: wanted to just thank you for being brave enough to take on these topics. The waters are murky in polygamy.

[2:03:15] Michelle: Yes, they are.

[2:03:18] Brayden: And it seems to go on and on. I think, uh part of your show has really allowed me to ask questions. Um, in fact, I’ve asked questions of my family members who are closer to his polygamy and to try to examine the fruits of, of the practice. And I haven’t found any good ones. Um, at this point, a lot of heartache, sadness, um, weird things, you know, it goes from just the easy things to talk about the things that are really, really difficult and, and I think, um, what you’re doing is, is bringing to light that, um, an issue that we have imbalanced the, the importance of male and female and we’re hurting because of it and uh we’re more powerful as men and women together. Um Equal partners help meet um created like you said, um the way that the way that God did put us together in the garden and one man, one woman, that’s, that’s where power is. Do you wanna talk maybe just a little bit about that male female balance.

[2:04:40] Michelle: 00 You want some of my insights on that? Um Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I, I’m sure I could do better. This is, this is gonna be our last call. So we’re, we’re about ready to wrap up. So um I have a lot of thoughts that if I, I know I’m gonna hang up from this and go, oh I didn’t say that and I didn’t say that, but I do think that there is this perfect union, this perfect union, right? That, that becomes one. And I think that um I, I just, I think that there is so much symbolism on every single level. I think even the temple, one thing when I, you know, when I did go to the Temples Weekly and I just found the symbolism for me at that point and the temples will share it in case it’s useful to anyone. I just thought even the temple testifies of this union of male and female because the external of the temple I had, you know, my, my thoughts at that time is the male that faces the wor world and keeps the in, you know, protects and keeps the inside sacred with the power, the symbol of power pointing to heaven. That’s a masculine symbol, right? And then the inside of the temple, the womb where we go through the veil where we do sort of metamorphose me metamorphic. I said that word wrong. We go through metamorphosis in our spiritual journey to be born again and to come back into the presence of God just like we were born into this earth. I I think that there is so much that testifies just like I was talking about, was it on this e was it on in this conversation? But um I think it was in a different conversation but the moon and the sun, right? That are exactly the same size in the sky. So that when there’s a perfect eclipse, we we can see the just like that’s how we’ve learned about the sun is because we can just see the very little edge of it when the moon is perfectly on top of it. And the moon that’s on a monthly cycle that symbolizes the female, right? And the sun that’s on a yearly cycle that symbolizes the male and how they interact with one another. And just, I think all things testify of this perfect unity that works together in such a beautiful way. I ha I think I was talking about the moon and the sun because someone um left a message that said like, yeah, of course, you’re wrong. Um Like this is all nonsense. There’s one sun and nine planets that orbit it. You know, I’m like, oh my goodness, what is, what is still we, we have the moon and the sun, right? And so there’s much more that could be said of this. But when you just look at a man and a woman coming together to hopefully, you know, if everything goes right to create and raise up a family that like that’s what it’s all about, that’s, that’s what this entire thing is all about. So anyway, share your insight, the insights. I’m sure you have some as well.

[2:07:32] Brayden: I just wanted to, to give you real props on your, your channel because that’s the standard that I see you holding up is uh uh you know, you talk about the importance of, you know, your, your husband and his role that he plays and every husband and father in the role that they play along with the, the women who are so essential to, to everyone and all of us like there is no one without the other. And when we get out of balance with too many wives that, that it, it just doesn’t work. It’s out of balance and, and you wanna talk about planetary orbits and, and things like that, it is perfect balance and um and that balance of masculine, feminine um those complementary roles. Um Just good job, really appreciate

[2:08:27] Michelle: your channel. Thank you. I really appreciate it and I couldn’t agree with you more. So thank you for the call and it looks like even though we were gonna, we have one more call. So this is our last call and then we will be doing this again. So um I guess Mason you’re our last call for the night. Thank you for calling.

[2:08:43] Mason: Hey Michelle Mason Web. How are you doing?

[2:08:45] Michelle: Good. How are you

[2:08:48] Mason: doing? Good,

[2:08:48] Mason: by the way? Huge fan. You know what? We’re not supposed to idolize people, but you’re making it really hard for me.

[2:08:56] Mason: Thank

[2:08:57] Michelle: you. That’s I will OK. Head check. Make sure my head’s staying. Not too big. Thank you, Mason.

[2:09:05] Mason: Hey, um just calling about um Ether four verse six is talking about the port of the blade and in there um basically moon I saying for the Lord shall said unto me, they shall not go forth unto the gentile until the day, they shall repent to their iniquity and become clean before the Lord. Now, in my opinion, nothing’s more iniquitous than a polygamy because it destroys the eternal union. It’s a corruption of it. What are your thoughts about that? Because I think we’re really being held back as a people because we still are holding on to the unique iniquitous and abominable teaching a man that is polygamy in my opinion. So

[2:09:53] Michelle: my first thought is shoot, I left that scripture out of my last episode where I covered this exact topic. So thank you for bringing another scripture to my attention and darn you for not bringing it to me in time to include it in my episode. It’s I wish I wish I had had it so I could not agree with you more. And that, that scripture is going on to my list of ones that will just come automatic. I just want them to come automatically to me when I need them. And for some reason I left that one out, I think you are exactly right. III I think that the whole like like going back to that very first call where God is in charge and God is unfolding this and no, no, nothing can stop the work of God from progressing. And I think that this is what it’s about. All of these clues are here where to the 3rd and 4th generation and all of this is being exploded right now. I think it’s profound and part of what I think is so exciting about this scripture that you just brought to me as well as the others that teach. The same thing is what it’s showing is, is the opportunity, it’s showing us, right? Because if we are willing to come out of those iniquities, if we’re no longer carrying around abomination in our back pocket, right? Then what can the Lord do with us? I think it’s incredibly exciting. What do you think?

[2:11:15] Mason: Absolutely. And, and here’s what’s crazy. Uh What I love about what you’re doing is not only are you defending Joseph Smith and, and hire Smith, but you’re defending God, our father to make a claim that he commanded something like 132 does that he commanded his sons to break and tear apart the hearts of his daughters? What a more blasphemous claim out there and a direct contradiction to Jacob two and two other court parts in the book of Mormon where it talks about Noah Noah and one of the other

[2:11:54] Michelle: king’s replication replication.

[2:11:58] Mason: Three different witnesses that polygamy is not from God. What we’re literally blaspheming our God, our

[2:12:08] Mason: father

[2:12:09] Michelle: and

[2:12:11] Mason: that what an iniquity we got to repent of and with a broken hearted contract spirit and quit trying to pretend that all is well and design because it’s not.

[2:12:22] Michelle: Uh Yes, you’re, you’re, you’re singing my song. Yes, I do. I, that’s why I really do feel led. So often to end these episodes with the invitation to repent because that, as I said in a few callers ago, that was my repentance was repenting for thinking that about God for believing that was who God was right. I felt like I was aware of how blasphemous I had been in that belief. And um, and boy, it’s better on this side of it, isn’t it, isn’t it better on this side to have a misunderstanding?

[2:12:58] Mason: So I

[2:12:59] Mason: feel so powerful that I ever tried to defend such an abominable practice. I know and I’m I’m guilty of that. So,

[2:13:08] Michelle: yes. Well, well, thank you, Mason. And I look forward to continuing to read your comments and hear from you. I appreciate it and to keep the

[2:13:18] Mason: incredible work.

[2:13:20] Michelle: Thank you. Thank you so much. And we have an amazing part. Parting gift. Ejs. Thank you again for that Super chat. Oh guys, sorry. This has been a really good night for me. I’m really thankful that we’ve gotten to um have this time together and have this engagement and look forward to continuing to do this. So, thank you all of those who have been following this podcast for those who have been sharing this podcast. For those who have donated to the podcast. Thank you for those who sent in your chats and your um questions tonight. I do hope that people will continue to be engaged in the comments, talking to one another. I love to see that happening that there um is, is so much engagement and the people are so um willing to accept these ideas and excited to have truth. So, thank you so much for joining us and I will see you next time and apparently I have to close this. So I’ll say that again.